Divorcebusting.com

This can't be the end!

Posted By: Barry

This can't be the end! - 01/10/15 05:58 PM

Hello all
I'm new here and am not sure how or where to post my story so this is a bit of a test to see where it comes up. I did post my story yesterday in "We're Separated - Now What" but it hasn't shown up yet (i read about the moderation wait so no problem there...trying to be patient!).
I've read reams of good advice already but just want to try and get in contact with people who are going through the same situation.
Paul
Posted By: BFloat

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/12/15 03:13 AM

The best place is to post in newcomers. There is a lot more traffic here.
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/12/15 11:08 AM

Thanks barely, i guessed it would be.
So my story...
We've been married for 20 years, I'm 40 this year, she'll be 38, and both have been happy for nearly all of that time (both agreed on that point).
We have 4 children between 20 and 13. We've had problems in the last couple of years though which we really haven't worked on. Thereís no abuse, no infidelity by either party (confident that is true), and never really argued much to speak of. Communication is really the issue, and we seem to have just lost the connection and spark. I still feel it, but she doesnít.

Anyway, W gives me the ILYBNILWY talk in March 2014 and said she wasn't sure she wanted to be married to me anymore. As you all know, this hits hard. She asked for some space, which I intended to give her by staying with my parents in the short term. What I actually did was cried, begged, pleaded, hassled, texted her to give us another chance...You name it, I did it! After around 3 weeks, she gave in to my harassment as I see it now and I went home so we could work on R. She obviously felt pressured into it though. We agreed on various ways forward (sadly no MC although I was willing to go, she wasnít). Part of the agreement was that I would begin to socialize with friends more, which I (and we in fact) had as much as given up on in previous years. She has always had a best friend to socialize with and since starting a new job has made more. She has always been a hardworking mum up to around 18 months ago when she started working in a paid job. Obviously this has had a positive effect on her (independence/confidence and the like). So we started to try and work on R, which was hard at first but better and better throughout the summer, great family holiday in August etc. Then it all starts to go backwards.

As I see this happening over Sept, Oct, Nov...I get anxious, worried, depressed, suspicious and moody. This does not help the situation. Although Iíd also agreed to focus on increasing my social circle when we tried to work things out, Iíd actually just tried to focus on us spending more time together (as opposed to very little before March). I realise now that this actually smothered the spark and put it out rather than fanning the flames! I should have done both things. There was an incident in Nov when I checked her phone due to the number of messages in the evenings (I know this is not good and shows trust issues). Nothing out of the ordinary regarding contacts, but I see a message from the best friend which looked like possible OM on the scene. Turns out to be nothing, but it did look bad (she agreed that it did but the damage was done then as Iíd confronted her with it. We did move on, but things were strained ever further. I then began to realise that maybe a lot of these problems are actually my fault because I feel mentally lousy. I was over thinking things and talking myself into there being issues when there were none.
I went to the Dr to discuss depression that I've probably had for over a year, and anxiety stemming from previous experience in March. I not only admitted this to myself, but also to my wife as I knew it was affecting out marriage. Unfortunately, 2 days later and 4 days before Xmas, she says she has no spark left and is leaving me. Obviously devastated again. My D15, goes with her, and 3 sons stay at home with me for Xmas.
She was (and is) adamant on separation (she hasnít said the D word yet but I fear itís just a matter of time). She was going to get a flat with D16 as at first, as I was not willing (or actually able) to move out. My original thought was that if she was leaving me, so why should I move out?, but I also had problems in nowhere to go and couldnít afford to rent. I have however moved to my parents again but on a longer basis (agreed on 3-6 month period with her) so she can stay in the house with the kids. This seems like my best chance of any kind of reconciliation. We're currently having no contact to give her space but she said when I saw her last that right now...it's over. I don't want that but she does. I'm just working on myself right now...for me. Meds from Dr helping with mental state, working on getting physically fitter (not too bad already but more thinking this will help confidence issues),and have made concerted efforts to try and hook up with friends (male only). She won't know about these at the moment as we are at NC stage and although these positive changes are not for her, i amm hoping that she will notice when i see her next. Without trying to pursue, i did text her to see if she wanted to meet over the next couple of weeks...not to talk of current issues but just for some food and company. The problem i have is that i realise all the places where i/we went wrong last time and really want to work on it right now but she is so sure that the right thing to do is to split up.

Any advice would be welcome, I've read a fair bit on here already but really need some support from people going through similar problems.
Posted By: Cadet

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/12/15 04:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Barry
Hello all
I'm new to this site, which I found the other day and which seems to be packed full of helpful advice and hopeful stories. So my story goes like this...sorry if it's too long!
We've been married for 20 years, both young when that happened - I'm 40 this year, she's 38, and both have been happy for nearly all of that time (both agreed on that point).
We have 4 children between 20 and 13. We've had problems in the last couple of years though which we really haven't worked on. No infidelity by either party (confident that is true). Never really argued much to speak of. Just lost the connection and spark.
Anyway, W gives me the ILYBNILWY talk in March 2014 and she said she wasn't sure she wanted to be married to me any more. As you know, this hits hard. At the time, I really didn't see it coming (more on this later). She asked for some space, which I intended to give her by staying with parents in the short term. What I actually did was went against every DB rule during that time!! I cried, begged, pleaded, hassled, texted..you name it, I did it! After 3 weeks, she gave in to my constant harassment as I see it now and I went home so we could work on R. Hard at first but better and better throughout the summer, great family holiday in August...then it all starts to go backwards.
As I see this happening over Sept, Oct, Nov..I get anxious, worried, depressed, suspicious and moody. This does not help the situation. Semi-major incident in Nov when I check her phone (I know, not good) and see a message from a mutual female friend which looked like possible OM on the scene. Turns out to be nothing (I believe this, but it did look bad!) but damage is done then as I confronted her with it etc. We did move on, but I then begin to realise that maybe most of these problems are actually my fault because I feel mentally lousy. I go to Dr to discuss depression that I've probably had for over a year, and anxiety stemming from previous experience in March.
I not only admitted this to myself, but also to my wife. 2 days later and 4 days before Xmas, she says she has no spark left and is leaving me. Devastated yet again. My daughter 16, goes with her, 3 sons stay at home with me for Xmas. Obviously worst Xmas ever!! She was going to get a flat with D16, but I've moved to parents again but on a longer basis (agreed on 3-6 month period) this time. Currently having no contact to give her space but she is saying that right now...it's over. I don't want that but she does.
Any advice welcome, I've read a fair bit on here already but need some support from people going through similar problems.


Brought over from the other thread
Posted By: theoden

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/12/15 05:17 PM

Barry,

Sorry you are here.

1. If your wife isn't cheating, then you will have an easier go at this.

2. That being said, it sounds like she's cheating. The ILYBINILWY speech usually means she is in love with someone else OR she wants to be soon. It means that though you may be a good provider and father, you aren't the LOVER/PARTNER that she wants. And if she doesn't already have a new boyfriend, she's going to get one soon. She's putting her romantic happiness above the well-being of your children. That's what ILYBIMINWY speech REALLY means.

3. DO NOT MOVE OUT YOUR HOUSE. Why should you move if SHE's the one who wants to end the marriage? This also will work against you in custody hearings if you get a divorce. Let her get her own flat. She needs to feel consequences for her actions. Why are YOU paying the consequences for her decision to leave you. If she's leaving you, she needs to be doing the leaving. Let HER leave. Why should you leave?

4. Go see a divorce lawyer immediately. This doesn't mean you are going to file. It's to know your rights, and also to get advice on what not to do (like move out of your own home).

5. Give her space, work on yourself. Get some exercise and some hobbies. She needs to know that you are ready to move on IF SHE LEAVES.

--Theoden


Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/12/15 09:48 PM

Thanks for taking the time to read my post Theoden. I really do appreciate any and all feedback.

I actually agree with both points 1 and 2.
I'm 99.999% sure that she hasn't cheated (I know that every mug that's ever been cheated on says that but she really isn't that sort of person). Although we've both changed significantly over the years, some core principles remain forever in a person, or so I believe. That being said, I do agree that she HAS fallen out of love with me as a partner/lover, and lost all respect for me as a person.
Although I do think she is really after some time alone at the moment, she's made it fairly clear that as things stand, I wont be the man she wants. That to me says that no matter what positive changes I make, I think she's had it and sooner or later, another man will be in the picture. What shocks me is that she isn't willing to throw everything at the marriage to try and save it. I suppose she thinks that as we've been through a rough patch already, she's already done that. She has said that she's well aware that I've only ever done everything for my family (including her) but this appears to count for nought.
As I said in my original post, we had a family holiday back in August and whilst away, she said that she wished that the last instance in March hadn't happened and that she was just having "a wobble". I've tried to explain to her that my recent insecure/depressed/miserable period was a "wobble" on my part, yet she is not able (or willing) to stand by me the way I did for her.

Regarding me moving out, I didn't have to, it was totally my decision to do that. I had though of the good and bad points on this, but as my main goal is to reconcile, I was more thinking that if she'd already mentally checked out of the marriage, that if she physically moved out and got her own flat / started to make a separate life for herself, that my chances of reconciliation were reduced...they seem very slim in any case in her current state.

It was also more for the kids (my D15 in particular) as she has her exams coming up so I didn't want her to have the upheaval of a move. I've only moved to the next street so access is also easier this way. I have to say that even on the day I left, W was still offering to move out and me stay at home.
As far as custody goes, my 2 eldest sons are adults now (one at University, the other at home), my D15 would go with W in either case (not because we don't get along, we are close although I have noticed a significant change in her relationship with me in the time she has spent with W over Christmas), it would really be my S13, who would probably opt to live with me.
I haven't sought any legal council as yet as it's all still fairly fresh. If things seem to be getting no better in the next couple of weeks, i probably will need to. She is saying at the moment, that if she feels no different in 6 months, she wants to sell the home so we can both rent separately. I'm really hoping that it doesn't come to that as that will certainly seem like the final nail in the coffin being banged in.
I'm currently trying to give her all the space she wants, I have sent a couple of messages in the last week but really only about the kids or finances. She is being the Ice Queen right now anyway. I drove past her this evening whilst taking my daughter to dance, she was jogging with her friend. I beeped the horn, the friend waved, blanked by W. I need to learn to not let that sort of thing bother me!
I've re-joined my old gym, joined a cycling club, and am attempting to catch up with some old friends as well as seeing existing ones. I am trying to take care of mind, body and spirit right now. My W also asked me to do this...FOR ME, not for her, which is what I'm doing but I have to admit that even though I know it's wrong, i am hoping that she will see these positive changes and maybe change her mind.
Posted By: theoden

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/13/15 05:03 PM

Barry,

It's very difficult to make changes for you, and not for her. It's hard not to constantly check and see if she "notices". First of all, she can smell your desperation, and they notice you are looking to be noticed.

That being said, do things that are good for you. You will need as much good stuff in your life as possible.

Do not text her except for stuff about the kids, etc.

Read the Last Resort Technique, it would help in your situation:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/

What she sees is someone who begged, pleaded, and then has shown weakness with you insecurity/depression. This leads to lack of respect AND, therefore, to lack of attraction.

I still don't see your wife facing any consequences to her actions. You moved out, hoping it would help lead to a possible reconciliation and for your daughter's exams.

You should have taken your wife's offer to have her move out. What you are doing is making your needs smaller for the sake of your children and, perhaps the marriage. It seems admirable, but it makes you less substantial and formidable. This will lead to more dis-respect on your wife's part. She leaves the marriage, blows up the family, and YOU have to pay. If your daughter suffered in the exams it might send a message to your wife. It's not SUPPOSED to be painless and seamless. You are not a replaceable person in this equation who moves out because your wife isn't "feeling it".

I don't know if you can get her to move out at this point. Get some advice from other posters on this.

My sense is you need to live a great life AND show your wife you are moving on. What are your financial arrangements? Is there some way you can SHOW her, like dividing the bank account that you are moving on?

Right now it feels like you are some banished rogue living in another apartment waiting, patiently, for your wife to change her mind and let you back into the home.

I made the mistake of RE-ACTING to my wife's actions, rather than acting in my own best interest and the best interest of my children.

See a lawyer now, get some peace of mind.

The more you are trying to reel her in or put the brakes on a divorce, the more she will pull away.

--Theoden

Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/14/15 03:32 PM

Thanks Theoden.

Yes, I agree that it's very difficult to make positive changes just for me when feeling as though the bottom has dropped out of my world BUT it was negativity that got me into this, so positivity seems the only way out of it. I am making attempts to remain upbeat and take care of myself. It doesn't help that I don't have a huge circle of friends. I do have friends, just not many that i'm close enough to. I think that's part of the big problem for her because when we first met (many years ago admittedly) i was a very popular person with lots of friends. She actually did the chasing to date me so she obviously saw that as an attractive trait. I am struggling to find ways to make new friends although I am trying to...and that really IS for me! I'm also trying to get hold of some old ones too.

I read the LRT link (thanks) and am doing my best to adopt this way of thinking and acting. It's going to be difficult because I have to say that (as un-manly as it sounds), I've always worn my heart on my sleeve a bit. This is one trait that definatly needs changing...even if just to protect myself a bit more.

I will say that the more I think about the moving out, I'm not sure if it was totally the right thing to do. I obviously miss being at home with my children as well as my wife but it just felt like the right thing to do for them all. Probably not for me though to be fair. You're right in that she is facing NO consequences at the moment apart from me not being there...which is what she wants. I'm told that she is acting like nothing has happened..I'm beginning to wonder if she may be a little crazy!!
I couldn't use any of my children failing at school as a way to "send a message" to my wife though, that would be totally wrong.

I could easily get her to move out, by turning up there with all my stuff and moving back in...she'd most likely be gone within the hour, but I still have doubts that it's in the marriage's or my children's best interests if not neccasarily either hers or mine as individuals.
I would be interested in other opinions on this.

Financially, we have already split the bank account. We're both paying various things whilst separated.

I'm not actually waiting to be let back home as such. To be fair she forced my hand in accepting a separation but I've already told her that what I personally think we should do during it is to have some time apart to reflect on what's happening and how best to move forward is we BOTH decide to reconcile. If she called me right now and said "come home", as much as I'd want to, I'd have to decline the offer as we need to do it right this time around if we're to stand a chance.

I refuse to believe that she thinks that we're somehow incompatible...surely you don't spend 20 years with someone if that's even remotely the case??
Posted By: JCred

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/14/15 03:40 PM

Hi Barry..
Stop over to my thread... Interesting because I talked about making friends on it...
Great timing huh?

It's called the Man Cave thread..
Come on over and make a new friend. Bring your own drinks.
Posted By: theoden

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/14/15 04:36 PM

Barry,

Is it in the best interest of the kids that YOU move out because your wife is not feeling attracted to you? What message does that send them? It's a morally inverted message you are sending. What they SEE is dad moving out.

Why do they think you are moving out? Did you give them "mom and dad are having some issues, we both love you" speech? Then what they see is a family falling apart for NO REASON. Morally reasonable cause and effect has been suspended. The world is now random for them. And guess who is breaking the family apart? YOU. Since YOU are moving out.

On the other hand, did you both tell them that their mom is not in love with you anymore? That's the truth. And if that's the truth, why should they see YOU moving out? What does that tell them about the moral nature of the universe? Mom has a change of heart and dad moves out? It's teaching them that you can hurt others, and break-apart a family without consequence to yourself.

Do you think moving out, because your wife is no longer in love with you, will give her any sense of respect for you or sense that you are a formidable person not to be trifled with? Do you think it will attract her to you? How is it in the best interest of the marriage?

Do you think perhaps, some discomfort and hardship on your wife's part might be the healthy, soul-building, adversity she needs to actually do some real thinking? Don't you think a reality check might help her see more clearly? How is protecting your wife from the consequences of her actions helping her? How is it helping your marriage. She hurts, and you enable. Isn't that unhealthy, co-dependent behavior?

People will abuse others until they face consequences.

How is unseating yourself as husband and paterfamilias good for anyone? Aren't you creating a vacancy for her current or potential boyfriend to fill?

OK...sermon over. ;-)

You said:

Quote:
I refuse to believe that she thinks that we're somehow incompatible...surely you don't spend 20 years with someone if that's even remotely the case??


Believe it. Or she wouldn't be wanting a separation/divorce. Incompatible, exhausting, hard-word, not fun, unromantic, etc. Either she's looking for relief from your horrible behavior OR she thinks she can do better. In most cases, when you get the ILYBINILWYA speeach, it's because they think they can do better.

On a positive note:

It's good to get positive.

It's good to get your game on.

It's good to enjoy life.

Keep that stuff up.

--Theoden

Posted By: sandi2

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/14/15 04:40 PM

Quote:
I'm 99.999% sure that she hasn't cheated (I know that every mug that's ever been cheated on says that but she really isn't that sort of person).


Neither was I that sort of person.

If she hasn't already cheated, she has her eye on the next guy.

Look, it is great to think in the positive, but you need to be realistic, too. You keep saying you are doing all this work on yourself for YOU, but if you discovered today that she had OM, would you feel the same way? Just be prepared, is all I'm saying. Getting in shape, etc., is great, but seldom impresses a WAW to change her mind. So I really hope it is for you and not her.
One way to know is when you want to meet up with her so she'll notice your changes. wink

Signed by,

Sandi
Former Cheater
Posted By: Tarheel

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/14/15 05:00 PM

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
I'm 99.999% sure that she hasn't cheated (I know that every mug that's ever been cheated on says that but she really isn't that sort of person).


Neither was I that sort of person.

If she hasn't already cheated, she has her eye on the next guy.


Barry, I seem to recall posting almost that exact same thing when I first posted my story (and Sandi probably responded in that same way). Long story short- I was wrong about what kind of person I 'thought' W was. I don't say that to bring you down, just be prepared.
Posted By: jim0987

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/14/15 05:10 PM

Barry.

Hate to say it but because my wife didn't want to be that person she waited a whole week after BD. Several OM since then.

Once she said she didn't want to be together she in her mind freed herself if her vows - she doesn't think its cheating.
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/15/15 12:17 AM

Hi Theoden

I can see your views on my moving out are quite strong. There's nothing wrong with that, and I thank you for your input. Don't think I'm being defensive or anything in this post, I'm just giving my point of view and trying to answer your many varied questions. I don't believe there is actually a right or wrong answer to all this. Sorry if it's a long post, it helps me to write it out.

To answer your question as to what WE'VE told the kids...that would be nothing.
We haven't spoken to them as a couple as she walked out and when I was at home with just my sons over Christmas, she only came round when they were out a couple of times.

What I'VE told them is exactly how it is. That their Mum isn't in love with me right now, and that I'll do whatever is appropriate to get our family back together. They know that ultimately, it's not my decision. They are totally aware of the situation...but also, yes, I told them we both loved them all and this is not their fault in any way.

I asked them all individually (including my daughter) what they thought about the idea of me moving out before I did and explained that it was so that their Mum didn't have to rent somewhere else and wife and daughter could come home.
I explained to them that it wasn't because I didn't want to live with them, and that it was more in the hope that she would have some time to think things through without physically moving on..or out. Similar to "losing the battle to win the war".

As we'd also had a similar episode (albeit for a shorter time) last year and we'd had some success in sorting things out, I was trying to both explain to them that I felt there was more chance of reconciling if I did that (it worked before) whilst also being honest with them that it may not be ok this time.

What SHE has told them is unknown to me.

To be honest, I'm trying my best not to ask them about what she's doing or saying (although I have talked to them about the situation in general so that they understand that my hope is reconciliation). I don't want to use them as spies or emotional pawns in any way. They've volunteered to talk about it a couple of times so of course, I listen.
My sons tell me that she's not really talking about it at all to them anyway.
Some things my daughter has said to me indicate that my wife has probably talked to her and is trying to convince her that this is what's best for her and for our family as a whole. This is obviously just what I'm reading into things so it may not be that that's the case.

I personally think the lessons they are learning are many. I'm not saying your take on it is wrong and it could be like that in some people's situation. It doesn't really fit ours though to be honest.

My wife is teaching them that it's right to be true to yourself and that if you don't feel right about something, change it or at least question it. I agree that they need to be aware that there sometimes are consequences for this self honesty, and they are aware of the hurt it causes, they're in the middle of it all.

I'm teaching them that you should be prepared to make sacrifices and do what you think is right for the things you want most in life, and for the ones you love.
Yes, that can be painful and not in your own best interests sometimes but that (in our situation) is the price of trying to save a marriage and family break-up.
Both of these are valuable lessons, it's obviously just a shame that they are both being taught at the same time as they are conflicting.

No, I don't think my wife is being drawn to me because I moved out. She knows that I've done it out of compassion for my wife and family and with a view to reconciliation. She didn't love me for almost 20 years because I was obstinate or somehow didn't stand up to her, it was in part, because of that willingness to do anything for my family. I honestly don't think she feels that I'm weak for not making her move out.

Maybe you're right that it would have been good for her to go it alone and feel the consequences more right now...I don't know. If I'd known this was all coming, I'd have been sure to get on here sooner and ask people's opinions. It's obviously down to what decision feels right when you're in the situation that you tend to go with.

The sad truth about your last paragraph is that she probably thinks both of those things. I'm sure she is tired of my recent behaviour, and also thinks there is someone better out there for her. There probably is. She says she's not wanting anyone else but I'm not naive. What I need to find out truthfully from her is which it is that's made her fall out of love with me....or is it actually both. It's difficult at the moment due to LRT...we are having NC at the moment.

I'll continue with the positive steps!!

Thanks again for your responses, I may not agree with all your views but I appreciate you taking the time to read my posts and let me know what you think.
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/15/15 12:57 AM

Thanks for reading my posts Sandi, Tarheel and Jim.

I realise of course that the possibility of cheating exists. If for no other reason though, she simply didn't have the time or opportunity pre separation to cheat. She was either working or with family. It's still not totally impossible I admit.
The chances that she has her eye on someone new is of course VERY real!

The thought of her with someone else makes me want to be physically sick. She's the only woman I've ever loved, and I'm the only man she's ever physically known....yes, to my knowledge I know.

To be fair, if there is an OM, she's not likely to volunteer that information to me unless it's to hurt me further and to try to kill off any hopes I may have.
I am of course trying to prepare myself for the worst whilst hoping for the best, that's really all I can do. I don't know how to cope with an OM should there be one, it would absolutely destroy me right now regardless of any preparation.

I really am trying to make changes for me, I also have to bear in mind that I may want/need to enter the dating game myself for the first time in a VERY long time if it all goes horribly wrong so a bit more self confidence will see me in good stead however things turn out. I certainly don't want that if it can at all be helped.
I literally have no interest in anyone other than my wife right now though and can't see myself getting over this any time soon if it does go wrong.

I just want her back frown
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/15/15 10:44 PM

Just out of interest everyone, what exactly is it in my story that suggests she's cheating or has someone on the horizon? Is that just the usual scenario or is there something specific you've read that makes you think that?

I'm just curious as to if I'm missing something really obvious because I'm maybe trying to / needing to see it through rose tinted glasses.

As I say, all I know is that she certainly hasn't been that type of person for all these years.

Appreciate any feedback as always 😃
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/16/15 12:15 PM

I'm really not coping well with this. I'm a broken man.
Posted By: edz

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/16/15 01:30 PM

Hi Barry

firstly, sorry that you find yourself here but know its the best place you can be. You'll find a terrific bunch of people on this forum. You'll get great advice and sometimes you'll get a well needed 2x4 (I speak from experience). Read, post, listen, read again and keep posting.

Pop over to my thread for my full background generally though I've been where you are right now. In my case no evidence of OM still none, is there one? Don't think so but if there is W is hiding him in the attic, is she thinking about getting one? I don't know but she shows no signs of it.

Dont worry about you getting back into shape etc to date, way too early for you to be worrying about that regardless of the outcome of your sitch. Work on you, look back at what issues you brought to the R or you want to change for you or the kids and focus on those first and foremost. Also dont worry about what is in your w's mind, it will drive you mad and you cant change anything in there so dont try, work on you.

So.. the first thing you should do is get yourself stabilised. Feeling broken is understandable, I felt like that for a month solid then slightly less and so on.

You need to detach, a word you will hear again and again and then again then you'll hear it again.

This doesnt mean giving up, not caring, not loving her, not wanting to be back together or the 100 other things you will tell yourself as to why you're not detaching. It means you will do all of the above but you wont make drawing every breath in your day about missing her.

I understand you want her back and the heartache that brings you let alone your worry for the kids feelings, I want my W back and my family under one roof again but not the same as it was just before BD though (I assume you've caught up with all the abreviations theres a thread in newcomers on them - there are a lot!)

I may have not caught it yet, but did you read DB / DR yet? You'll get far more out of the forums if you do and they are very useful if you are stuck in your mind about something.

I'll read more on your sitch and post back later.

Breathe, relax, try to get into the GAL mind set and work out what 180s you'll put in place for *you* and the kids, dont do any of this with the intention of impressing your w or with thoughts on dating but simply for you and them, if w is to come back it wont be on your timescale this is a marathon.

Take it easy.

A quick edit, if you can see a counsellor (doesnt have to be a db one although you can do that over the phone) it helps, a lot, even if you go by yourself, or on the phone. You will find a lot more about you and about how you got here by doing so, thats the first step before you can get moving onward. Havent seen where you are yet and your location isnt showing on the side panel?

Edz
Posted By: Cadet

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/16/15 02:36 PM

Originally Posted By: Barry
Just out of interest everyone, what exactly is it in my story that suggests she's cheating or has someone on the horizon? Is that just the usual scenario or is there something specific you've read that makes you think that?

No one has a crystal ball or can tell the future.
There are no easy buttons here either.

Normally a woman does not leave one relationship without having another one in mind.

That being said does that mean it is guaranteed - NO but very likely.

Sometimes the relationship is a character in a book, a romance novel for instance.
You may never be as good a the HERO in a romance novel.
So with each scenario there are plus's and minuses.
The bad news when their is no affair partner the crisis takes much longer to burn itself out.
SO be careful what you wish for.

This is a marathon not a sprint,
my suggestion is to take things one day at a time,
one step at a time and learn as much as you can.

I have over 30 books read on these topics,
and really feel I could teach a PHD class on some subjects.

You can learn too.

Best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time.

Knowledge is Power.
Posted By: Vince H

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/16/15 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: theoden
Barry,

Sorry you are here.

1. If your wife isn't cheating, then you will have an easier go at this.

2. That being said, it sounds like she's cheating. The ILYBINILWY speech usually means she is in love with someone else OR she wants to be soon. It means that though you may be a good provider and father, you aren't the LOVER/PARTNER that she wants. And if she doesn't already have a new boyfriend, she's going to get one soon. She's putting her romantic happiness above the well-being of your children. That's what ILYBIMINWY speech REALLY means.

3. DO NOT MOVE OUT YOUR HOUSE. Why should you move if SHE's the one who wants to end the marriage? This also will work against you in custody hearings if you get a divorce. Let her get her own flat. She needs to feel consequences for her actions. Why are YOU paying the consequences for her decision to leave you. If she's leaving you, she needs to be doing the leaving. Let HER leave. Why should you leave?

4. Go see a divorce lawyer immediately. This doesn't mean you are going to file. It's to know your rights, and also to get advice on what not to do (like move out of your own home).

5. Give her space, work on yourself. Get some exercise and some hobbies. She needs to know that you are ready to move on IF SHE LEAVES.

--Theoden



Originally Posted By: theoden


People will abuse others until they face consequences.

How is unseating yourself as husband and paterfamilias good for anyone? Aren't you creating a vacancy for her current or potential boyfriend to fill?

OK...sermon over. ;-)

You said:

Quote:
I refuse to believe that she thinks that we're somehow incompatible...surely you don't spend 20 years with someone if that's even remotely the case??


Believe it. Or she wouldn't be wanting a separation/divorce. Incompatible, exhausting, hard-word, not fun, unromantic, etc. Either she's looking for relief from your horrible behavior OR she thinks she can do better. In most cases, when you get the ILYBINILWYA speeach, it's because they think they can do better.

On a positive note:

It's good to get positive.

It's good to get your game on.

It's good to enjoy life.

Keep that stuff up.

--Theoden


Best post ever, especially point 2 in regards to the ILYBINILWY speech. This is spot on. Great advice.

I know it's going to be hard but you have to GAL. Look at this as a blessing in disguise. Take this time to work on yourself. If she comes back she comes back, if she doesn't she doesn't. Either way you will be a better, stronger person at the end of all this. Stay positive.
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/16/15 03:31 PM

Thanks for your reply Edz.

I was actively looking for this type of forum where i could get some advice, support, and general suggestions from like-minded people on how they coped with what's going on and what worked for them/what didn't. I've read some helpful suggestions so far (GAL,Detach,180 etc)...it's putting them into practice that i'm currently struggling to do even though I know that they're all good advice.

I know what my faults have been and what part I've played in how we got here so I know what things I need to work on, but my mind is reeling from it all so much at the moment it's hard to focus on myself.
I'm just trying to work on the smaller attainable goals at the moment.

I'll take a look at your thread shortly. I was hoping someone would come along where there isn't evidence of an OM. I do think that that applies to my situation too. I've had a few replies where people have suggested that there is an OM or of cheating already, and although I concede that I need to try and prepare myself for the possiblilty (which i'm struggling to do as well), I honestly don't think that's the case at the moment.

No offence to the ones that did say that, I'm sure that in a lot of cases it IS true and I'm sure you're only trying to get give me a reality check.

I'm sorry, i don't know how to put the proper quote box into a post, but where you said...

You need to detach, a word you will hear again and again and then again then you'll hear it again.

This doesnt mean giving up, not caring, not loving her, not wanting to be back together or the 100 other things you will tell yourself as to why you're not detaching. It means you will do all of the above but you wont make drawing every breath in your day about missing her.

That is exactly what i need to do! I don't want to give up but I do miss her litteraly every minute of the day - even though she's hurt me so much. I can't help loving her.

You're right that I am worrying about what's in W's mind and it is driving me round the twist. I'm trying not to let it but it's the most difficult thing I've ever experienced. I'm sure that's the same for anyone going through this.

I haven't read DB/DR yet, I'm going to order them as it seems like they are a must for a LBS!

I have made enquiries for counciling and I'm also going to attend an emotional wellbeing course (doesn't start until February 26th though) which sounds like it may be up my street too. I'm in the UK, i've added that to the sidebar.

Again, thanks for the response.

Barry
Posted By: edz

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/16/15 04:00 PM

No worries Barry,

I'll catch up on your thread this evening still in the middle of bits of work this afternoon.

As I said no evidence of OM in my sitch, wife could of course announce she has one and he's moving in at any minute, think the guys are trying to get you to understand that we as lbs will be the absolute last to know their intentions behind friends, family and probably people they meet at the shops. Also, as Cadet says above, if there isnt the reality of it all may take longer to appear than if its a case of being drawn away by a fantasy, if ever it does.

When waw/wah go they have already decided upon their actions and prepped themselves for it, part of that is isolating us from their intentions, not to hurt us - in my w's case she kept saying she didnt want to hurt me - but because its a necessary step in their plan or script, thats a truth its hard to get your head wrapped around but its important you do or detaching will be much more difficult as you tie yourself in knots wondering why they havent told you something.

Definitely get and read DB/DR in my view they have been very very useful (NB I have not resolved my sitch either way, w and I are living apart so I am not a veteran so temper my advice with the knowledge im a reative newbie at all this) but Ive found the forum invaluable not just for advice but also the emotional support it offers.

Ah you're in the UK ok cool, helps to know so I dont tell you something regarding, say the NHS, and find you're in antarctica!

BTW you can book councelling through your doctor surgery via NHS how long it takes to get it will depend on where you are etc. Also if you have, say, bupa healthcare etc through work check if they offer emotional councelling, in my case they did and it was extremely helpful.

Take it easy.
Posted By: Vince H

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/16/15 07:00 PM

Originally Posted By: theoden
Barry,

Sorry you are here.

1. If your wife isn't cheating, then you will have an easier go at this.

2. That being said, it sounds like she's cheating. The ILYBINILWY speech usually means she is in love with someone else OR she wants to be soon. It means that though you may be a good provider and father, you aren't the LOVER/PARTNER that she wants. And if she doesn't already have a new boyfriend, she's going to get one soon. She's putting her romantic happiness above the well-being of your children. That's what ILYBIMINWY speech REALLY means.

3. DO NOT MOVE OUT YOUR HOUSE. Why should you move if SHE's the one who wants to end the marriage? This also will work against you in custody hearings if you get a divorce. Let her get her own flat. She needs to feel consequences for her actions. Why are YOU paying the consequences for her decision to leave you. If she's leaving you, she needs to be doing the leaving. Let HER leave. Why should you leave?

4. Go see a divorce lawyer immediately. This doesn't mean you are going to file. It's to know your rights, and also to get advice on what not to do (like move out of your own home).

5. Give her space, work on yourself. Get some exercise and some hobbies. She needs to know that you are ready to move on IF SHE LEAVES.

--Theoden



Best post ever, especially #2.

Follow the 37 rules, work on yourself, and GAL. That's all you can do my friend. Stay strong and be positive.
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/17/15 06:29 PM

Ok, so I've decided not to think about there being an OM. It serves no purpose but to make me feel like crap and I can't focus on myself if that's the case.
If it ever turns out there is one, I'll deal with that then, but not when he's only a fictitious character in my head. I still don't believe there actually is one anyway, I just think the W has got to a point in here life where she isn't sure if she wants to be in ANY R, and feels like she's lost her identity as a person rather than as a wife and mother. Only she can figure out what she wants.

I still believe I've done, and am doing the right thing in me moving out whilst we are S and need to use the gift of time wisely to sort myself out, for me and my kids.
If in doing that, my W sees the man she's loved for many years returning and wants to give in a shot (or more of a fresh start), then great, I'll embrace that and see where it leads. If she doesn't, I can't control that and although it's not what I want, I'll more than likely be in a better place to deal with it.
I'm sure the pain will still be intense, it wouldn't be worth trying at all if I didn't love her so much.

I saw an old friend last night, who has also had a tough time during his life with relationships although the circumstances are very different to mine. He got me to lay it all bare to him, right from the start and asked all the right questions at the right times to really make me think about things more clearly. He's missed his calling in life, he should be a councillor!! He is also looking to GAL a bit more too so we've arranged a few things which is really going to help me.

I woke this morning for the first time since BD feeling a lot more confident about how this is all going to pan out, but also in a moment of clarity, realised that I'm actually going to be ok no matter which way it goes.

I'm sure I'm on a long and rocky road, but long may this feeling continue.
Posted By: Sotto

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/17/15 08:14 PM

Barry, just wanted to say Hi (as a fellow Brit) and welcome to the board. Good to read your last post - you're sounding more positive. Nice to have a friend to GAL with, and I'm sure that will help.

The folks on this board are not where we would have chosen to be. But that's just the starting point, it's where we go from here that matters.

Good luck to you! Toots :-)
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/17/15 09:44 PM

Hey, Barry!

I've debated, after reading through your thread, if I wanted to pitch in. But I'm going to go ahead ...

If you could look through my posts from the first time I was here 9 years ago, you would have seen a vet named kml drop on my thread and be the first to say: "Your H is having an A." And you'd see my response was: "I guess that's always possible. But I am 99 percent sure he's not. That's just not the kind of person he is. He isn't a womanizer."

And I kept on about my DB efforts, gobbling-up ANY scraps my H would throw at me as I continued trying to be his warm, validating, supportive "friend."

Boy, did I feel stupid when I found out, just a couple months later, that H *was*, in fact, cheating.

I'm not telling you that your W is 100% having an A. I don't know, and you don't know. But you asked what clues you had given to make people think your W is cheating. And that's what I'm going to address here:

Actually, Barry, the good news is: Your situation - as is usually the case here - sounds JUST LIKE everyone else's story. The bad news is: In probably 99% of those stories, an OW/OM is either known about or later discovered.

What we know through lots of our own experiences - and also through reading stories here for years - is that "ILYBINILWY," 9.5 times out of 10, actually means: "I'm cheating." We call that "script" because it is what they allllllll say when they're cheating and abandoning their Ms. Even through my own pain, I've always found it almost comical how they all say the very.same.things, even a country away. It's almost a science!

Why does it matter whether she's cheating? Because, well, it does. And, IMO, in pretty big ways if you want the best chances to save your M.

In DBing without an active A (with exception of the LRT), you are encouraged to become the kind of man your W likely feels she lost during your M: Attentive, validating, warm, loving and supportive. If your W is simply bored or angry or disconnected with you, then making those changes is likely, over time, to create a positive difference in your M, even if you're S.

The problem is: If you become that person while W is having an active A, my experience has been that it doesn't only NOT help your efforts to re-attract your W ... it actually pushes her even further away.

IF your W is in an A, then she's in what we call a "fog." She's not at all in love with you. In fact, you repulse her right now. Her brain is pumping out all kinds of chemicals that make her feel literally addicted to OM. He's like a drug. And if you're being all nice and sweet and warm and kind and validating, it's likely going to turn her off. Because in her mind, you look pathetic ... mainly because she's comparing you to someone else who is a lot more assured and confident.

In more detail: If she's in an A and you choose to "Plan A" her (if you try to be her friend ... if you take-to-heart her complaints about you and try to "fix" yourself only to show her you're changing ... if you placate her and act sweet as syrup around her to "show" her your new-found "changes"), she's GOING to be even more repulsed by you. Because she's looking at YOU, scurrying around to make changes FOR her and practically begging to be her "friend" - when you're actually her HUSBAND - and then, on the other hand, she's looking at a manly, attentive, confident man who showers her with affection and attention. And, what's more, she's "in love" with him.

Now, which of those two men sounds more attractive? (Surely I don't have to tell you.)

So the SHORT answer to why an A is relevant is: Because before you would be able to get to work on busting a D, you'd need to work on busting an A.

SOME of the work is the same. But, IMO, a lot of it isn't.

This is all from my own experience (which includes busting two As, 8 years apart, and now piecing with my H):

Fighting against an A takes A LOT of backbone, willpower and determination. And NO FEAR. It takes you digging deep to find your (ahem) testicles and your strength. It takes you being willing to firmly tell your W that you will NOT live in an open M (if, in fact, you're not willing to) and then being willing to back that up with actions. (And it.is.not.easy.)

Simultaneously, you have to incorporate all those "normal" DB principles: be confident and upbeat and, yes, even neighborly, and put forward the BEST Barry you can be. You DO need to listen to W's marital complaints about you if she offers them. And you need to work hard on fixing those things in yourself and *for* yourself because you want to be the best man you can be for - God willing - your W when she comes around. Or for the next woman you meet.

And, no matter what - affair, or no - you have to be willing to let your W go and start facing a possible future without her, as bad as that hurts and as impossible as it feels right now. GAL will help you A LOT with that ... and with detaching from W's words and actions while she's wayward.

Your goals: GAL and detachment. Those are life-savers right now.

And please listen to theoden and sandi. I've read their posts for a long time, and they know what they're talking about. sandi is as sharp as they come. And theoden's tough stance may come off as a little too edgy and harsh. But that's because he's been here a long time and has a lot of experience and knowledge about what works and what doesn't. (I remember when I came here in 2005/06 and vets were telling me to be tough. I was like: Y'all are asking me to do WHAT?!? ALREADY?!? I don't have the strength to do that! But I, like many others, wish I would have listened sooner. When I came back last year after ANOTHER A - because H and I didn't do "piecing" the correct way after the first one - I followed the advice of my friend Starsky, another tough-guy around here, almost to the letter. And my H's A was busted in less than two months.)

You've come to the right place, Barry. Sending you my best wishes ...

(Sorry for the novella. I'm long-winded.) smile
Posted By: Cadet

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/18/15 12:15 AM

I'm not sure if you said that you're moving out of the house do not do that. It is the single biggest mistake you can make
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/18/15 12:21 AM

Hi Toots, thanks for reading and the welcome.

I do feel strangely more positive today? It's taken me by surprise a little?!

Nothing has changed between W and I, I think it's just that it dawned on me that over the last week, I've actually been doing what I should have been doing all along...GAL!!
Don't get me wrong, I wish none of this was happening, I love my W dearly and I hope we do survive this but if I just try to put that to one side for a moment though, and think about myself, it's true that I'm not the person I once was...confident, funny, popular......happy?

That's not all down to my marriage or my wife of course, there's lots of factors. Ultimately though, it's all just got to the point where I've turned myself into someone I'm not.
I've realised that if I want to be the very best person I can be, for me..for my kids..and yes hopefully for my W and M, I need to get my old self back.

This sounds all very Zen when I say it out loud, but it's sort of...only when I can love my true self, will anyone else be able to love the real me.

I sound like the bloody Dalai Lama lol!!

I'm sure to be a regular here for a while, as I said....long road!
I'll take a look at your thread as well Toots.
It does really help to know that I'm not alone in this.

Although I'm not happy to be in the situation, I'm glad I found my way here.

Barry
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/18/15 01:21 AM

Hi Train,

Thanks for your input.
Don't worry about being long winded...I can be too lol.

I do understand that as much as I think/hope I know my W after all these years, it's a possibility that I don't and there's an OM. I get that.

All I'm really saying is that as it stands, I believe her.

I may be back writing on here one day that I got it wrong and she was cheating at the time or that there's an OM on the scene now, but as it stands, I believe her.

She's my wife, I love her, and there's no evidence of it that I know of (and trust me, I've looked for any).
If I let my mind convince me there is someone else and there actually isn't, all I'm doing is making myself illl for no reason. The stats may well be against me, but for the time being, I'll remain positive.
What'll happen if it ever does turn out there's someone, I don't know.

There's lots of good advice in your post and insight into what to expect if OM appears or comes to light so I thank you for that.

I'm going to really work on the detachment and GAL and see where that takes me, it's really all I have and it has been helping if not my M as yet, my own sanity!

I definitely think I'm in the right place. smile

Barry
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/18/15 01:25 AM

Hi Cadet.

Yes, I did move out already. I have heard a few people say that it was a bad idea but I'm going with my gut here and believe it's the right thing to do at the moment.

I hope I don't live to regret it. I'll let you all know!!

Barry
Posted By: Ontheup

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/18/15 08:47 PM

Hey Barry

Im sorry for your pain right now. I have just found out my wife is having an affair. I tell you this because I also believed she wouldn't be (deep down I knew). As much as it hurts it was actually a relief to know. Has it made any difference? I don't know. But she can now not sneak around lying to me and getting me to change my schedule so she can carry on her affair. The secret is out and that will change her mind-set as well. It will either drive her nearer to OM or give her a dose of reality and maybe she will start to navigate the fog.
Either way my mind-set has changed now . I thought I was GALing before and detaching. I wasn't. I just thought I was.
For the moment we are both under the one roof but in 2 months ill be moving out back to our other house. Then reality will kick in for her. I wont be available to her anymore apart from being there for our daughter. As far as being best buddies which we have been even though she is with another man, that will end unless she decides she wants to work on our marriage.

I hope it isn't for you but believe me there are some similar signs there to me. The script is always the same. Its uncanny but then we're all human and humans are creatures of habit.
I eventually found out after getting access to her phone which she had become strangely precious over. The stuff I found out before that which could have been talked away just all fell into place.

Im not hopeful it will end as they are business partners so difficult for one to walk away. What I do know though is that I wont be taken for a ride anymore. Ill will leave the door open but ill be moving on as I've wasted 6 months trying to repair something that was impossible to repair whilst she is with someone else.

cheers
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/19/15 04:27 PM

My W is gone forever and has been replaced by a super-bitch!

Legal advice it is for me.
Posted By: Cadet

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/19/15 08:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Barry
My W is gone forever and has been replaced by a super-bitch!

Legal advice it is for me.

Legal advice is never a bad idea.
Posted By: Sotto

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/19/15 08:42 PM

Hi Barry

I agree, it does no harm to consult a L. Even if you don't decide to do anything right now - it is good to understand more about options etc.

You sounded much more positive last week....have there been some more developments with your situation?
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/20/15 01:24 AM

The only real development is that I'd tried to contact W, but at first she wasn't willing to speak to me at all. Then after I text'd her, I had a load of very cold, calculated texts back. Treating me like the enemy.
Don't get me wrong, it's still very early days but we've had NC for two weeks and she got her friend to tell me that she had nothing to say. I realise that's a very short amount of time but I wasn't trying to talk about R, I was literally making contact.
Anyway, I thought I'd go round to see her this evening to try and see if she would be so cold to my face..texts aren't good anyway.
She was actually ok with me at both the start and the finish. The middle bit was really where she was saying that nothing had changed and she still feels we shouldn't be together. We managed to agree on a few key things though so it wasn't a totally fruitless exercise. I know that this is going to take a long time to resolve...if we ever do, but I'm in it for the long haul.

Better buckle myself in.
Posted By: theoden

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/20/15 05:27 PM

Barry,

Train has given you some excellent advice. Listen to her.

Yes, go see the lawyer.

I think you should re-visit the Last Resort Technique.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/blog/how-to-prevent-a-divorce-the-last-resort-technique/

Checking the temperature of the relationship is a form of pursuit/chasing. Generally not a good idea.

It take a while for her to miss you. It takes a while for her to sense you are moving on.

Since you aren't really into making her face the consequences for her actions, then you will need to really find yourself and try to build a good life on your own, living apart from her, and hope she notices. This is a long haul deal.

On the positive side, you get your own space, your own "world" and can really get centered, etc. Easier said than done, but that's all you can so right now. This needs to be done without the pining look back at your wife to see if she notices. This needs to be done without checking in with her and measuring her emotional temperature. This needs to be done AS IF you are moving on and planning for a life without her. Skip the AS IF, and go on and start planning for a life without her. She's planning for a life without you. She was ready to move out. Now that you've moved out, take the lead and try to find your true "inner samurai".

I'm going to issue a warning shot, if you plan on winning her back by becoming super-Barry, keep in mind, if and when she wants to reconcile, you can't make your "piecing" stage as easy for her as you made your divorce-busting. People appreciate what is hard-won. You moving out, becoming, super-Barry, attracting your wife back it all 100% YOUR effort. She's invested nothing. She gets to screw up your family, put you through hell, and as a reward, she gets a new and improved Barry. If Pavlov was right about stimulus and response, you have re-enforced this entitlement mindset she has that she deserves better and all she has to do is threaten your marriage and leave in order to get you to perform and become a better husband. This also means the rest of your marriage is going to be one repeat performance of you walking on egg-shells to appease your wife and make her happy. And what happens if you slip? Well, then all she has to do is threaten to move out again. Heck, next time she can have an affair (if she isn't having one now).

So...if you are able to win her back without making her face the consequences of her actions, you will need to address those in your PIECING stage, which is a whole different process. In that stage she apologizes, she works hard, she addresses her own issues, etc.

Best of Luck,

Theoden
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/21/15 04:37 PM

Hi Theoden,

I really do appreciate all and any advice posted, even if it's not particularly palatable or doesn't fit in with what "I think" is my sitch. Ultimately, that's why I came here. I know I need a 2 x 4 sometimes as much as a figurative "shoulder to cry on".

Regarding the issue of an OM (which is what a lot of Train's advice was referring to...again, I'm not saying it wasn't good advice Train!!). In reading many of the threads here, it's obvious that there are lots of people within the forum who have experienced all the pain that this causes and I can see that there's a common denominator of there being an OM/OW in a lot of cases.
However, as it stands there's no evidence of that so I have to stop creating a problem that may not exist for my own sanity.
If it ever turns out I was wrong, I'll have to try and deal with the problem then. I can't really do anything else on that front!

I know I went against the LRT rules in texting / seeing her. I just didn't realise how hard it would be. I may come across as a wuss or a soft touch or whatever term to some people..I assure you I'm not, I'm just struggling to adopt the DB principles and apply them into my daily life...I will persevere though. I know it's early days and she needs time to miss me, as you say...long haul.

I realise that most people on here, and most people I talk to about me having moved out think the same thing, that I've done it wrong and I should have let her go (facing consequences etc). The only problem with that is that's not what I feel is right in my gut. I honestly do appreciate all advice, but if I went by what everyone else said (even if the advice is from people who have "been there and done it"), and ignored my own decision and it turned out wrong, I would be saying to myself then.."I knew I should have listened to my gut".
If it goes wrong like this, at least it is purely my decision to rue.

I agree with you that the positive changes, detaching, GAL, all needs to be for me. It's obviously dificult when all I want is my family back..I don't want to move on, although I know I have to if there is ever to be a chance for reconciliation.
I am honestly trying hard to detach though. I have quite the full diary over the next two weeks, which she knows nothing about.

What you're saying about the piecing is absolutly correct. I did a lot of this last year in our previous troubled time (trying to make positive changes, but then I focused ALL my attention on US, and very little on ME which is what she (and I) needed me to do), but she didn't change much or work on her issues. She's not much of a talker which is one of the main problems we have. Although things improved, the underlying issues weren't addressed. What I'm hoping to happen is that over the coming weeks / months, she will decide that she's made a mistake and that she does want to work on things. I don't want to just smooth it all over though and be (or feel) in danger of this happening again. I did have the "walking on eggshells" period last year. I've already decided on some things that I will and wont accept in our marriage, and if she wants to work it out, these will be a pre-requisite.
As much as I love her, and want to get our lives back on track, I refuse to be a doormat again.

As it is, I am re-commited to LRT now.
I am contacting kids daily as usual etc and they come to see me regularly. Right now, it's me and them I'm trying to think of.

She still creeps in though!

Barry.
Posted By: LisaB

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/21/15 05:12 PM

Hi Barry, sorry that you find yourself here, but you are amongst friends. We get it.

Train's advice is spot on.

Also I want to add something you will not like to read. With your "I hear you but I'm going with my gut" you sound like nearly every other newbie poster on here who just thinks their situation is different. That their spouse would never cheat, would never lie, would never be a complete a-hole. Sadly almost all of us find out that the situation actually gets worse than we could imagine.

I'm not saying your wife is cheating for certain or that you should obsess about that and go look for clues. And I am sure no one else is recommending that either. But listen to the advice of the wise people on here. And I'd say even if you don't agree, try to follow their advice. They know. They have been through it and they have seen others go through it.

When I first arrived on these boards 6+ months ago I said "my husband is so moody, I think he is under a lot of stress at work, please help!" Guess what Barry? He was in love with his coworker. That was his stress at work. How to get rid of me and get in her pants was causing him stress. Ha! Joke's on me for being understanding of him because of his high stress job, and those late hours at the office where I offered to make him dinner and bring it to him... you get what I am saying.

Don't obsess about her possible affairs, but don't put your head in the sand either. You need to GAL and focus on yourself and be strong. Take the advice of the people on here. Read HP's thread. Lots of great advice on there.

If she is having an A or not is not really the point. It sounds like she wants you to leave her alone. I suggest you back off and go quiet. Focus on you and making your life what you want. It's VERY HARD but that is what you need to focus on as much as you can.

Hugs, Lisa
Posted By: Georgia Bulldogs

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/21/15 05:35 PM

You mention having marital issues about a year ago. What were those related to?
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/21/15 08:09 PM

Hi Lisa, Thanks for the response.

Honestly, I do take every post in the spirit in which they are written. I know everyone is only offering good advice in as much as trying to ensure that I'm prepared for the possibility that an OM is already present, or there is one on the horizon. I get it and I won't lie, I'm not mentally prepared for that.

The "going with my gut" part is really relating to me moving out and not making/letting her go when she is the WAS. I do think that's the right thing to do for us right now, but believe you me, if anything does surface there will be changes to the current set-up. I'm obviously going to may the mortgage on a house I'm not living in for her and her OM to use as a love nest!

As you say, I'm not going to obsess over an OM..obviously the thought is there - particularly about one on the horizon, near or far. At the end of the day, there's only a few circumstances in UK law by which you can D and most don't fit with us (unless we want to make something up). We'd have to be separated for 2 years and then both agree to D at that. The chances are obviously enormous that she will have met someone else long before that so I kind of know it's only a matter of time the longer this goes on.

Like I said though, as it stands, I believe her and although she's broke my heart twice now with this, I owe it to her when she says there is no one else. We've been together all our adult lives and I have to believe she's still in there somewhere at the moment. It's not that I don't think she's capable of lying (or at the least, withholding the truth), or being a *****, it's more the already cheating part I can't (or yes, I admit..don't want to) believe.

I suppose what hurts the most more than anything is that it all comes down to the fact that the love balance between us is one sided. I'm going through this for the second time in less than a year now but I won't give up on her completely.
I wouldn't be here if that were the case.

It just hurts me to the core that she is just ready to throw our M away like this and not fight for it like I am.
I understand how we've got here, but will we get a chance to start again, that's unclear.

Yes, it may well be that we've been living in an unhealthy co-dependant relationship, in fact, now I write that out and read it back, that is true. To be fair, most of that is down to me.
It obviously never used to be that way, it's just evolved over time and turned into a wedge driving us apart.

I think that's why I'm finding the detaching so difficult (she's not), although I am really trying. Even if we do get to work on the R, I need to keep a sense of detachment alive as I don't feel like an individual either, just half of a pair. This is what she's tired of, I can tell.

I totally get it with the GAL activities, and I've actually quite enjoyed a few evenings with friends in the last week. As I say, I'll continue with that even if it's just to keep me sane! I'm working on a list of goals (short, mid, and long term) which I aim to stick to no matter what the outcome of all this.

I will be leaving her alone and backing off now. I can't affect her thinking, I've really told her everything that I feel and what I want. If she wants to close the chapter on our current marriage, but start a new one with me again, that's great. If she wants to move on at some point without me, I know I have to let her go despite my desires.

What I do know if that happens is that she'll wake up one day, maybe 5 months, or 5 years down the line and regret letting go of the man who would have done anything for her.

Barry.
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/21/15 11:58 PM

With all due respect, Barry:

I owe it to her when she says there is no one else.
I disagree. You owe it to YOURSELF to find out. (And not by asking her. If she's cheating, she's also lying. Because cheaters lie.) And you owe her nothing right now. She has fired you as her H. What would you "owe" a boss who fired you?

We've been together all our adult lives and I have to believe she's still in there somewhere at the moment. It's not that I don't think she's capable of lying (or at the least, withholding the truth), or being a *****, it's more the already cheating part I can't (or yes, I admit..don't want to) believe.
She is in there somewhere. But you being a sappy doormat isn't going to help bring "her" out. Please don't kid yourself: Everyone is capable of lying. Everyone is capable of cheating. And you don't have to believe it - or even want to believe it - for it to be true. And regardless of whether it's true or not, your goal is the same: Stiffen up your backbone and go GAL and some freakin' confidence, for goodness' sakes!

I'm not trying to be rude, Barry, but your posts are dripping with sadness and despair. If we see it, W is seeing it. And that's NOT attractive. It's pitiful. If you're THIS sad - even without confirmation of an OM - I'd hate to see you with knowledge of an A!

It just hurts me to the core that she is just ready to throw our M away like this and not fight for it like I am.
From where I sit, you're not fighting *at all*. You're laying down and playing dead and waiting for your W to come around when she's probably - I'm sorry to say - feeling quite free and liberated. Those two things (you playing dead and W coming back around) will never go hand-in-hand; it simply doesn't work like that, Barry.

I think that's why I'm finding the detaching so difficult (she's not)
There's likely an obvious reason for this, but we need you to pull your head out of the sand to see it.

And NO MATTER WHAT, your course of action is the same!

Barry, PLEASE get back on your feet, brother. You're making me feel gloomy and depressed just reading your posts.

Your GAL efforts have, thus far, been to win W back. Please don't think that's going to work. GAL is to get you feeling better about YOURSELF. And I can tell from your posts you feel like a beaten dog.

No, sir. Pull yourself up by those bootstraps. Go do something really, really FUN! Do you like adventure? Jumping out of airplanes? What's something really adventurous you've always wanted to try? Rock-climbing? Salsa-dancing? C'mon. Gimme SOMETHING you've always wanted to try ...

... ??? ...

Now, go DO it. (And don't forget to come back and tell us all about it!)
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 12:00 AM

What I do know if that happens is that she'll wake up one day, maybe 5 months, or 5 years down the line and regret letting go of the man who would have done anything for her.

Anything EXCEPT being the man she's clearly (silently) screaming she needs ...
Posted By: Sotto

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 09:51 AM

Barry - Train is so right - though it may be hard to take on board.

We know how hard it is - but this is BOOTSTRAPS time....let's see the goods Barry. Pull yourself up by them and tell us the plan!

We all want you to succeed, and we want to get to know "Barry that only a woman in her right mind would leave"
Posted By: LisaB

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 02:31 PM

Wow Train, you are really amazing.

Barry listen to her, she is a smart one. It may sound harsh but it is excellent advice. We are here to listen to your sadness and complaints and let you vent. We are in the seem boat. We understand. But we will also support you by giving you tips for what you need to do next, which is often hard to see from the sad, rejected, low place.

If nothing else, act on the outside like you are improving yourself and being strong. It helps to fake it til you make it.

Hugs, Lisa
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 03:32 PM

I'm beginning to think I've possibly made a mistake in coming here.

Although I do appreciate people taking the time to read my story and to think about it and type a response, a lot of the posts being sent are really making me feel worse rather than any better. I realise that people are only saying it how they see it, but my God people, remember what it was like for you and try to show a little more compassion!!
I realise that things are posted with the best of INTENT, it's some of the CONTENT that's getting to me.

Maybe my posts are "dripping with sadness and despair".
I'm not a robot who can just switch it all off! This is 4 weeks old, not 4 months or 4 years.
My hat goes off to people who can just say "That's it, I'm moving on with or without you" and can cope better than I with the feeling of abandonment by their WAS. Maybe it's because I'm suffering from depression as well, I don't know.

I myself don't mean to be rude Train, but to tell someone who is already down and that has joined a forum looking for support in their hour of need that they're a spineless, weak, pitiful, sappy doormat who is not fighting, laying down playing dead and comes across as a beaten dog is tantamount to sticking the boot in.
I didn't come here to have my ego massaged, but neither did I come here to be insulted. Of course my confidence is shot to pieces.
It's hardly a confidence booster having this happen. Again, maybe some people may be able to turn their biggest defeat into their biggest triumph overnight - I'm sorry if that's not something I can do right now.

I'm sure all the vet's here will frown upon this post. I'm not meaning to offend anyone.
All I'm saying is that sometimes, maybe that 2 x 4 needs to be swung a little softer, particularly in the Newcomers section.

I don't mean to make anyone fell gloomy or depressed in reading my posts, so I'm sorry if that's how they come across.
All I've tried to do is tell people that I'm doing my best to cope with a really sh!tty situation and that I am actually making efforts to GAL so I can feel better about myself. No, I don't believe there is an OM..maybe I'm wrong about that but to have people keep on and on about it in every post doesn't help.

It doesn't appear to matter how many times I say anything , or how I justify my decisions, people are unbelieving of my efforts to help myself and/or are so bitter about their own situations with thier spouses's OP that of course that must be the case in every situation.
Is that a bit harsh?...maybe. Is that how things appear to me?...definatly.

For those still reading and are interested. To answer the question of do I like adventure etc. I'm actually planning to cycle from Lands End to John O Groats (length of Britain) and have started training for it already. I'd thought about it a few years ago but money and time away from family stopped me. All this has really made the decision to do it more definate. It won't be for a while as it takes a high fitness level to do it in 10 days. I don't want to be a rock star, a sky-diver, a base jumper or anything else that some people may find adventurous. I'm happy being with friends and family. Is that so bad?

Barry
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 03:56 PM

Hey Barry. Listen... I was exactly where you are when I landed here first. Exactly. This is not going to get any easier for you. It is going to get much much much much harder. Almost everyday.

People here are swinging the 2x4s to get you ready for what is to come. No one here is going to treat you worse than your W likely will in times to come.

All the advice you have received so far is EXACTLY what you need to here. Please look at your reaction to the advice given. If it *stings* you to to hear that you are dripping with sadness... a part of you KNOWS that is what you need to work on RIGHT NOW.

You WILL NOT get better and more well meaning support FOR FREE anyplace else. If you get a particularly painful 2x4... take time to figure why you feel the way you do about what was said.

Then come back here... say "Thank you for the 2x4" and talk about what you learned and.. most imporatantly... what you're going to do about it starting NOW.

Your reaction to the 2x4s in your last post is part of the reason you are here now. There is no way around that.

I am not a vet. My W started saying almost exactly what your W says now. I lived with her for almost 2 months before I found out she was in a PA the whole time. I am still living through this. I still make mistakes... I still get 2x4s many times harder that yours. I eat them up like candy.

If you think you're suffering from depression... go to an IC and get antidepressants. I did and I NEVER thought I would ever do this. Part of being strong now is getting help. You will need it. Whatever you're feeling, your W WILL NOT show you the compassion you want. The 2X4s are REAL compassion.

You MUST get stronger NOW.

What are you going to do about your sadness and need for compassion right now?
Posted By: Tarheel

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 04:14 PM

Barry, we've all been through that pain and in no way is anyone trying to make light of it. What may come across as 'tough love' to you is actually the best thing you can ask for if you truly want to save your M. It's not easy, but necessary to pick yourself up. As unique as I thought my sitch was, I've found that the longer I've participated on this forum, there truly is a script that most cases follow.

OM- maybe there is not an OM in the picture. I really hope there is not. I posted early on for you to be prepared because I saw several similarities in our sitch- I had a Feb BD, then 'talked' W into giving us another shot, had what I thought was a good summer, BD2 in Sept, days later found an email from OM expressing his feelings...When I finally checked cell logs, she had been talking/texting him constantly for over a month. I still don't know how she was able to communicate with him so often without me knowing.

Looking back I wish I would have found this site at that time. Instead I wrote W emails spilling my heart about how much I needed her. When I did find this site and started working on myself (the only thing I could control), I felt like I was finally making progress. Slowly over the next several mos I'd find out that W was spending time with OM and I'd blow up at her because I thought NO WAY would the woman I know do that to me. That's why I wanted you to be prepared- learn from my mistakes.
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 04:34 PM

Barry, I understand how you feel. I STILL sometimes feel that way when I read posts around here (even my own to people). I think to myself, Maybe we're too far removed from the first days - the anguish, the sadness, the despair - because the words that some of us say just come across as downright inconsiderate of "newbies'" current feelings.

It's not my intent to be inconsiderate.

But sometimes, the truth hurts. And I could not have said it better than HP did up there, especially this:

Your reaction to the 2x4s in your last post is part of the reason you are here now. There is no way around that.

I feel a great deal of compassion for where you are right now. I was there, too. When I first came here almost nine years ago, I was sappy, spineless, pathetic, wimpy, sad, hopeless, etc., too.

Maybe it would have helped temporarily soothe me to have someone holding my hand and saying sweet things during those first few days and weeks. But it wouldn't have helped save my M.

And that's why you're here, right?
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 04:50 PM

Hi Poirot.

Maybe my last post was a bit strong, it was just bugging me. As I say, I don't mean to offend anyone and I am really trying to take it all on board. I know I should listen to people here because they've heard it all before and lived it.
I don't want to alienate myself from people here at all.

Regarding the depression, I'm already on antidepressants. I admitted to myself and my wife that I thought I needed help just before Christmas. 48 hours later, and 4 days before Christmas Day...BD.
I started on them over Christmas (had to go to the doctor after she left). They are helping.
I've booked onto an Emotional Wellbeing course in a couple of weeks and I am looking at getting some councilling through my employer. I'm hoping that the combination of the three will help me to manage my emotions better. I know there is worse to come.

You're right that my response is part of why I'm here. I do get on a rant sometimes..obviously W did not appreciate those either.

I know I need to be stronger...and I know it needs to be now!

Right now, I'm trying to meet up with old and new friends more, keeping active in the gym (in training as above), things like that to try and stop or at least help the sadness situation. As far as compassion goes, I have two very close friends, one of which has been through a period of depression and made it, the other of which knows my W and I quite well.
Both of these have been terrific in just being someone to talk to, and I will admit that they have swung the 2x4 at me often too.

I'll keep posting and work on being stronger.

Barry
Posted By: Vanilla

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 04:51 PM

Barry

Train comes from a good place on this, she cares a great deal.

Please try to think of it this way, when you first start to DB that is the most vulnerable time and it is also probably the most sensitive time for your R. Often what we do in the first period is so important for our standing and recovery.

I received my very first 4x4 in MrBond's first post which was let my H fall to pieces without enabling. Sandi told me that I need to get some boundaries as I was being abused. Both cared a great deal but it was hard for me to understand that I had been doing all of the wrong things. Empathy would not have helped. I took it on board and really struggled but with the help of the wonderful members of this board who supported me I got through the early months. I lurked for three months before joining here and thought I was doing all the right things and was progressing. Once I started to post and receive my 4x4s then I did so.

You will find great guidance and it is important to take it on board. The process of DB is often counter intuitive and feedback is necessary. Ask Mozza if resistance is futile! Some of Wonka's wonderful posts provoked the same reaction as you have had to Train's post but Mza listened and turned it all around with the advice of the absolutely direct Wonka. If you want a thread to read then I feel Mza is an ideal first start.

Persist and concentrate on you to move forward.

Vanilla
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 04:56 PM

Hi Train,

Yes, I'm here to save my M, and I know that the advice given is harsh but necessary. I apologise if I worded my post a little strongly towards you. Please do keep tabs on me, I will get through this.

Barry
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 05:01 PM

Barry,

No need at all to apologize. I'd personally like to see MORE of "that" Barry. wink

I'm not giving up on you.
Posted By: hjoseph

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 08:05 PM

Barry,
I've been following your thread because your story is the same as mine. The advice Train is giving you is the advice I wish I had months before my separation. Please Listen and hold on. It will help in the long run.

Train,
I appreciate you not giving up on Barry. I continue to monitor his thread to apply the same advice you give to him.

Thank you.

Me:28 W:24
M:4 years
S5 S2
S: July 2014
DB: Jan 2015
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 09:30 PM

It is honestly an honor and privilege, guys. If I can take any crappy experience in my life and use it in a positive way to help others, it's a win-win for all of us.

It's hard to apply a tougher stance in the beginning. Even though I was getting this same type of advice when I landed here the second time, I was so enthralled in my own pain and suffering - and feeling (even the second time) that my situation was "unique" and "different" - that I could have come up with a thousand reasons why the advice wasn't applicable to, or good for, my particular situation.

But precisely BECAUSE I had been here once before - and my rational-mind KNEW what worked - I was able to take a tougher stance (and quicker) the second time around. When I started trusting that people on the outside - but people with loads of experience and research (wisdom) under their belts - could put my situation in better focus than I could (because I was too emotionally-invested and hurting), and when I started trying out the advice they gave me, I started feeling more confident and more in-charge of my own destiny. Now that my H is home, he says my "confidence" - and how I never acted sad around him; I just moved right on with life with a smile on my face - is precisely what re-attracted him. (Granted, he didn't see me cry each time he left after visiting the kids, but let's keep that our little secret. wink Even THAT became better in time ...)

I don't want people to come back here a second time ... unless you're coming back, happy in your life, to help shepherd others out of their own pit of hell. Know what I mean?

Confidence, y'all. That's where it's at.

BELIEVE you'll be ok. In fact, BETTER than ok. Because you WILL.
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 09:57 PM

Here's one for you all..

W and I have a mutual friend (F) and while I was talking online with her yest about my GAL activities, I noticed her profile picture was of her and W.
I couldn't help but click on it (I know, I know...detach already!) and I noticed that W wasn't wearing her wedding ring.

There are occasions where she does take it off (at work in a kitchen, running) but this was taken at the friends house. My stance on OM you all know already, so it's either I'm wrong about that (I would appreciate no further comment on that just yet), she forgot to put it back on after work, or she feels it's a burden on her finger now which is a symbol of vows she no longer wants to keep.

No one but her can answer that truthfully, but my question is, what would you do in that circumstance? I've never taken mine off, and continue to wear it due to the fact that we ARE married and I want to stay that way.

Would you take yours off?

Barry
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 10:07 PM

That's a personal decision, Barry.

What feels authentic to YOU to do?

Why would you base decisions for you on what she's doing? Why would you react to what she's choosing to do in her own life?

You will find peace quicker by not staying preoccupied with what your W is doing or thinking. But you already knew that. Riiiiiight??? wink
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 10:10 PM

As for me? I wore my rings when I was committed to my M. When I was DONE worrying about whether H and I reconciled, I didn't wear them. And when I took them off, it didn't break my heart to do so. That's how I knew I was doing what was authentic to ME.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 10:14 PM

Hello Barry. Try not to read your Ws mind about why she does anything. Doing so will hurt you and likely lead you down cheeseless tunnels.

I have taken off my ring. For me it a reminder that I'm moving on with my life. While counter-intuitive... R success stories show that it's when you let go of your old M that you make room for a new M if possible with your W. If you are being tactical... it could send the message to your W that you hear her and are not pressuring her to come back.

Others do as you do... wear the ring as a sign that they are standing.

It's up to you.
Posted By: edz

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 10:24 PM

Hi

W was never a firm wearer of her rings but took them off within a week or so of leaving. I took mine off in December as I made a decision that I needed to commit to myself, sounds odd but if we reconcile w will put my ring back on, if we dont well..

As others have said its an extremely personal decision only you can make. I felt better after taking mine off after 5 months as it tied into when I started to detatch. Only you can really decide for you though and only do it for you. If you feel better keeping it on then do so.

Edz
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 10:50 PM

Hi, thanks.
I'll continue to wear mine for the time being. That feels right...for now.
I didn't go looking for evidence of it as such, it was kind of in my face (it actually felt like it was done on purpose). I also think the mutual friend knew I would see it too.

I haven't let it phase me too much to be honest. Yes Train, I know I can't keep thinking about what, why, when, where or how she is doing things.
I am getting there...albeit slowly!

One thing I have realised is that I spend a lot of time writing up about W but don't talk about my kids much here. I see S18 every day as he works at the same place as me so we have lunch together. S20 is at University but we make sure we speak at least every few days and I'm seeing him this weekend. D15 and S13 I see every couple of days and we're always texting each other. It's not the same obviously, but those snippets of contact keep me going until the next time. I do miss just sitting with them sometimes though.

Anyway, I've just finished cooking party food for a night with friends tomorrow. I'm really looking forward to it, more so because none of the people going know about my sitch and I won't be mentioning it. Just an opportunity for some laughs with good company, yummy food etc. I won't be drinking but I'm sure they'll more than make up for my abstinence lol.

Barry
Posted By: Ontheup

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 11:24 PM

Hey

Keep going Barry. I'm currently sleeping on the couch trying to make the best of a really [censored] situation. I swing from desperately wanting my wife and wanting to fix this to, stuff this OM can have her and the sh1t that goes with it. I'll be able to do all the stuff I've not been able to for years. The big guilt is my daughter. But I can't just sit around and hope. I need to move. Keep being the best dad ever. If my wife's comes out of the fog and I've not already disappeared then who knows. But when I look at her now it's like I dont even know her.

As a keen cyclist myself lejog sounds amazing. You should defo do it.
Posted By: okjpc

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/22/15 11:44 PM

Barry,
Just wanted to chime in as another user to say I'm pulling for you too. Keep at it - I'm about three months in on the DB work and can definitely say this stuff does help.
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/23/15 04:14 PM

Hi SRD,
I've caught up with your sitch and it's obviously tough for you right now.

Although currently our sitch's are different, I totally agree with what you say where you've put "I swing from desperately wanting my wife and wanting to fix this to, stuff this OM can have her and the sh1t that goes with it".
As you may have already read in my posts, there is no evidence that my W has an OM at the moment (I know you had that at first too and it turned out badly) and as we're already seperated, my chances of being the last to know (should it turn out there is one) is fairly high. Although I'm trying not to focus on it too much, the doubts/thoughts linger as I'm sure everyone here knows is the case when things are still so raw and an OM/OW is not yet already known about.

What I can relate to though, is that I too also swing from desperately wanting my wife back and all of this to end to feeling that because she has done this twice now (broken my heart with the "It's over" speech), I don't even know if I CAN trust her to not do it again, or indeed even if I WANT to. I too look at my W now, and although I physically see the same person I've loved for 20+ years, I have no idea who she is.

I've just read "The star is inside of you" post below, I don't know if you've read it but it really resonated with me.
I'm not saying it will with you but it's definatly worth a read.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2435116&page=8

If I'm honest with myself, I've lived my life in fear for some time now. Fear of not being good enough for my W, of not doing enough or spending enough time with my children, fear of the future in general....What a waste of a life.

I'm getting help to try and deal with these fears (medication, individual councilling and signed up for an Emotional Wellbeing course so far) but ultimatley it's the GAL that's pulling me through at the moment. That and seeing the kids as often as I can.

I'm going to be the man I want to be, that my kids want and need me to be, and if my W wants to come along for the ride and be part of my life, that's great. If not, then as sad as that is, so be it, it's her loss.

Maybe they're just saying this to try and cheer me up because of my sitch, but three of my colleagues (all F) who know what's going on, and know both my W and I have all said that my W is lucky to have me and that I would make a good catch for any woman.
Not that I'm even contemplating anything like that, but I do need to get some self-belief back in my life and man the hell up!!

I'll keep up with your sitch, and I hope things improve for you.

Barry
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/23/15 04:16 PM

Thanks okjpc, I will definatley try to keep a PMA, and will post regular updates on myself and my sitch.

Take care, Barry.
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/23/15 04:21 PM

I'm loving that whole post, but especially this, Barry:

I do need to get some self-belief back in my life and man the hell up!!

I'm giving you a standing ovation right now.
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/24/15 12:14 PM

Lol, thanks Train.

So last nights get together with friends was fun. As predicted, they all made up for my alcohol abstinence! What started out as 6 of us ended up as about 20 of us all playing drunken board games. Everyone bought some nice food, and we had a good laugh which is always the best medicine.

The host put some background music on, which of course turned out to be an assorted medley of W and I's greatest hits throughout the years (I'm wondering if music will be ruined forever for me right now). I tuned out as best I could as I didn't want to sit there in remembrance.
All in all, a fun night though.

It's a sunny, if not slighly chilly day so I'm off out on my bike today to get some mileage under my belt. I'm trying to organise to meet up with all my kids tomorrow to go out for dinner. As my S20 is at Uni, it's not often we all get to be together. W has an open invite to come, though I doubt she will.
I would like her to but it's her loss if she doesn't.

NC this week except for one email I sent her relating to S13. No response, but one wasn't required as such. I was factual and friendly but not overly so.

Funny thing the other night I didn't mention. I was getting ready to go out when my phone rings and I see it's my MIL who I haven't spoken to at all since this happened. We are close, but I don't want to put her in any sort of compromising position..her first allegiance is quite rightly to her daughter's happiness. I say hello and she asks "who is this?".
I say it's Barry, and I swear I can hear her recoil from the phone in shock. I immediately said that she didn't have to continue the call if she didn't want to (she did) but I did ask how she came to call me by accident? I'd sent her a text over Christmas regarding the death of her dog, just saying sorry to hear about it, thinking of you, but didn't put my name as she obviously has my name and number in her phone. She said she got the text, but that my name didn't come up. I was so close to saying "yes, that's what happens when you delete a number!", but didn't.

She was kind and understanding on the phone, told me that she knew I don't want this etc, and that no matter what, I will always be her SIL. She said if she had to design a SIL from scratch, she'd come up with me (I'm thinking, please tell your daughter this, but don't voice it).
She said I can visit her whenever I want to, which I may well do. Not to find out what I can or "get her on side", she's not your typical battle-axe MIL and has been more like a real mum to me for 20 years.

I had a thank you text from my SIL this morning, I'd sent a card and some money to my niece who is 3 today. Also not spoken to her either for the same reasons as above. She said she would call me in the week which will be nice. We're actually a really close family, which just makes all this worse right now. Half your family support network suddenly disappears or feels to awkward to talk.

Barry
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/25/15 01:20 PM

So the photo with W not wearing her rings wasn't her just being forgetful. I saw her yesterday out with her friend in our nearby town and she didn't have them on. I didn't ask about it. We were civil but I wouldn't go as far to say friendly. She asked me why I was out in town (I was actually just window shopping for something to do, which I usually hate doing), but I just said I was meeting someone and didn't elaborate. Maybe it'll do her good to wonder what I'm up to.

I'm in two minds what to do about my ring really. My gut says to keep it on to show that I continue to stand for the M, but another part says take it off (and although still being realistic) hope that she will put it back on one day.
As someone else said, it may make her feel I'm ready to move on which may draw her back (or not).
I'm NOT ready to move on though which is where my confusion comes in. Still thinking about what to do there.

I'm meeting up with my other SIL in the week for a coffee (her older sister) who I also get along with really well with.
None of this meeting with or communicating with her side of the family is in an effort to influence her, I just miss them all.

All the kids have things on today now so no dinner, although I'm meeting up with my D15 this afternoon which will be nice. She has a boyfriend, so she'll be getting "the Dad talk". She's a very beautiful young lady (gets her looks from her Mum) and is very intelligent and sensible (obviously gets that bit from me)!

She'll probably tell me that she doesn't need R advice from me or her Mum right now!!

My DB book should be here tomorrow so I have that to look forward to as well.

Barry
Posted By: Sotto

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/25/15 01:27 PM

Hi Barry. Good to hear from you. Now then, you're still focusing on the rings issue with your W in mind.

"Keep it on and show I continue to stand, or
Take it off and hope she will put it back on, or
Make her feel I'm ready to move on which may draw her back"

I think it's best if you make a decision purely for yourself on whether or not to wear your ring. Don't factor in your W's reaction at all.

Hope you're having a good day, Toots x
Posted By: SunnyB

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/25/15 02:30 PM

Barry, we all get to the ring decision sooner or later, and Toots is right, do what feels right for you. I took my rings off after H strolled in at 6:30am after having spent the night with OW. He had previously told me he broke it off with her and I was up all night worrying about him. We left for a family cruise the next day. I didn't care if he noticed or not.

The reason we got into the BD talk is I asked him why he hadn't been wearing his wedding ring lately.
Posted By: Squiggy

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/25/15 02:47 PM

Barry, I'm impressed with how far you've come in handling this. Comparing your first posts and what you are putting on now shows a strong resolve. Keep going out and GALing. It looks like you are doing wonders!

I had the debate about my ring with my friends last night. As Toots and rppfl said, that decision belongs to you regardless of what your wife might think. I'm choosing to keep mine on, because to me it stands for my decision to save this marriage, regardless of what my W thinks or wants right now. Remember, you are making the big changes in you (meds, IC, GAL, etc.). Make your life your own in everything even down to your wedding ring.
Posted By: stacey9

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/25/15 03:19 PM

Barry my h stopped wearing his ring a few months before bd and after a few weeks I took mine off too. No discussion about it or anything which I regret now.

Glad you had a good time with your friends. Take care.
Posted By: Ontheup

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/25/15 07:21 PM

My wife took her rings off just before bd a week ago. It was just another breadcrumb. She kept leaving clues until it was so obvious what was going on. Almost like she wanted me to find out she was that careless. Don't sweat about the rings as painful as it is. In her mind she stopped wearing them a long time ago. I still wear mine because I'm still married. I will continue to until we're not or I feel like we're not.
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/25/15 11:11 PM

Bad day today emotionally.
I visited our mutual best friends and completely broke down.
This mask of showing strength is too much to bear.

It really does feel like our M is over and she's cut me out like a cancerous tumour. There's no love for me in her any more, just undeserved bitterness and resentment. I'm so sad right now, I miss my W and family so much.

Sorry to those that think I'm coming along in leaps and bounds, I'm really not.

Barry
Posted By: rd500

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/25/15 11:27 PM

Barry. No one expects you to come on in leaps and bounds. This is your W your talking about. The one person you could rely on , the person you gave your heart too. If you came on in leaps and bounds it would hardly show love from you. It's a tough road and we all take it at our own pace.

Your world has been rocked but you will come out the other side Take care and just do what you can to cope at your own pace. Rd
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/25/15 11:41 PM

Barry,

Remember this: It's *progress*. NOT perfection.

You've done great this week. So you've had a bad day? Okay. That's expected! Your world is upside down right now. No one would expect you to be strong all the time. But you are working on strengthening yourself each time you have a good moment or just feel strong for a minute. Yep. Even just for a minute. One of my mentors once said to me: "One day at a time. And when that feels to burdensome, think: One MOMENT at a time."

Everyone here thought their WAS was "too far gone." I thought it when my H left for OW. Both times. But we are back together and have a stronger M now than we have *ever* had. Others here may not end up with their M. But of the people who have stuck around on these boards and healed, I haven't seen one that stays "stuck" in sadness forever. In fact, because of the self-work they've done, they are happier than they've ever been.

Trust the process. It's working even when you don't feel like it. This is a marathon. Not a sprint.

And we are here for you to vent to so that you can show your stronger side to the "real world." Okay?

We are behind you.
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/25/15 11:44 PM

(The reason GAL is so important - and the reason it WORKS - is because it makes you feel stronger, more confident, more positive, for a longer-than-usual period of time during these crappy times. That's why we want to see you fill up your GAL calendar. I promise it gets more bearable in time, Barry. Just hang in there.)
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/26/15 01:38 PM

Hi,
Just wanted to talk about why yesterday was so difficult.

I had to pick up my D15 yesterday from home and Wís car wasnít there. I needed to get a coat and a couple of items of clothing Iíd left behind so I went in whilst W was ďapparentlyĒ at the local supermarket. I got my coat, then went up to the bedroom to get my clothes. Sheís got all new bedding etc, and put our wedding photo down the side of the bed.
I went into one of the bedside drawers to get something of mine (we have just the one set of them), but I have to admit that I opened one of hers which has her ďspecial occasionĒ nightwear shall I say in it amongst other things. I knew it was a bad idea.
Itís all been moved around in there like sheís been wearing it, and it sure isnít for me. D15 was snooping around upstairs as well so I couldnít look any further.

As I was driving D15 into the local town, W passed me coming the other way...miles away from any supermarket she would use.

My D15 was a bit nasty to me in the car, so I asked her not to be horrible to me when I only get to see them every few days for a short time. I explained that I wanted it to be quality time. She was saying that I was out a lot too so it wasn't their (the kids) fault that we didn't see each other much. I told her that I was never too far away, only either in the gym or at friends locally and that whenever any of them wanted to spend time with me, to just call or text and I'll come back. I told her I can't just sit around my parents house waiting for the next time that any of them feel like seeing me. I said that I was just trying to do what her Mum was asking me to do in GAL and keeping busy, and that it was good for me too (I know W is thinking that by me GAL, it's going to help me come to terms with the fact that our M is over so that when the final blow comes, I'll be in a better place. I often wonder if she has a copy of DB somewhere!!)

In the end, D15 was ok with what we talked about and said she understands all of the above.

When I dropped D15 home, I went back to my parents house and W's BF (best friend) was outside her house (she lives right across the road) and she invited me in for a cup of tea. I did, and ended up begging her to swear to me if W had an OM (either way) whilst sobbing my heart out. She said that she hasnít got one and that if she (the BF) did know about one, she would get W to tell me about it. Iím really not so sure thatís true, those two will lie each other up and take it to the grave.

(Whilst at the BF's house, I recieve a polite text from W saying that she "would prefer me not going into the bedroom whilst she's not there. She appreciates that I also own the house but that right now, that is her space and that if I need anything, to let her know and she will get it" I can relate to that and can see how it would have annoyed her. I just said Ok, sorry, I was just getting some clothes.
I obviously didn't say that I'd looked in the other drawer.
What I do know from that text is that my D15 couldn't help but tell her that I'd been in the bedroom though. She must have known it was going to stir things up. I think W has told all the kids to let her know if I go round there whilst she isn't there and to tell her what I was up to).

I said to the BF that the longer this S went on, the chances of an OM happening increase. Although W has never been overly sexual and can go for weeks without ML, when we had troubles last year, it was 6 weeks and then she practically raped me! I'm not naive, there is only so long anyone can go. BF says that she isn't even thinking about anyone else and is just happy on her own. She has an electric friend in that drawer which BF has told her to use rather than do anything she may regret. She told me before that she's never used it on her own (it was something we would use when together) but maybe that was why the drawer was re-arranged as opposed to the wearing of the other things? Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part. As it stands, I'm back to where I was in creating this OM, when they is no concrete evidence that there is one. I need to stop thinking about it.

Anyway, I ended up in absolute pieces with the BF. Not just about that, but about the whole situation. Iím really trying my best to keep strong (the mask on) but inside Iím a train wreck, and sometimes it has to come out. Iím so broken.
The BF said that W has literally flipped a switch inside and is happy as she is now (without me). She doesnít know if thatís going to change over the next few weeks or months but if she had to judge it now, it wonít.
She asked me if I even could carry on like this for another 5 months (which is what weíve initially said), and I said Iíd have to if thatís what it took. The truth is, I don't know if I can. The BF was asking me if I didnít think I should ďcut my lossesĒ now to save any further heartache, but I canít, I really donít want to. I have to try and give it every chance until there are none left.
That probably sounds like Iím being weak to people, I donít know.

She asked me what would happen if at the end of that time, W still says that she doesnít want to reconcile, and I can honestly say I donít know what will happen to me. Iím already absolutely crushed as it is. Not by the thoughts of an OM, just over everything.

There's a part of me that wants to say to W, "Look, is there any part of you that thinks things can be different between us and that we can reconcile at any point, because if not, we'll split now, sell the house and go our own ways".

The other part is telling me to not be so stupid in rushing to push her into a D when it's not what I want and that I should just carry on with the DB techniques until I feel I'm strong enough to face the worst outcome. Maybe in finding that strength she will see something attractive again.

The rollercoaster continues...

Barry


Posted By: rd500

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/26/15 02:36 PM

HI Barry, sorry you are in such a bad place. I am not a vet but have been living with this for almost a year and almost 4 months since W left. Its really hard to see the person you love turn away from you but its happened. Your W that you knew is gone for now. She might come back one day but for now she is gone. The lady in her place doesnt see you as her H anymore. Try to think of an old girlfriend that you used to love but now you feel neutral towards her.

My W is far from cold and is texting, calling me, calling me sweetheart,etc but at the end of the day she left. She lives her own life now and I am not really a part of it.

Each step is hard to take but all you can do is work on you and sort out your life. What your W does or doesn't do is her choice. You have less than no control because anything you do will push her away.

As regard talking to her BF, I would not advise that. You said yourself its your W's bf. its really hard but you have to STFU to anyone connected to her. Your W knows how much you love her and is in no doubt you want her back. She is very comfortable in what she thinks about your feelings. Please listen to the vets because I feel I have gone way to far the other way and my W feels that I have no intention of her coming back regardless of what see wants.

Please take all I have said as coming from a non vet who can't sort out his own M but feels every inch of your pain.

Take care RD
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/26/15 03:21 PM

Hi RD,

Yes, I know the usual advice would be not to talk to W's BF, but we've also been friends for over 20 years too. Our family's go on holiday together and see each other most days etc. She has said that I can go see her to talk and if I need a shoulder to cry on, she would support me. She's also told me that she really does want us to get back together but that she can't influence W in any way.
I don't ask her to tell W anything or convince her in any way, that wouldn't be fair on her (obviously it wasn't very fair of me to ask her about an OM but I was in such a mess about it), and she doesn't tell me anything W is saying to her either.

You're right that my W is gone. She left over a year ago probably and was replaced by some weak imitation of her who was pretending to work on our R and M. I didn't realise that at the time, in fact, this imposter should get an Oscar for their performance.
Like most people's stories, I just thought that our issues were just the normal ups and downs of marriage, I didn't know she was tipping all the downs onto a scale and leaving them there.

Like my own, I hope your sitch improves RD, or that you are able to come to terms with it for your own sake and start to live again.

Barry
Posted By: rd500

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/26/15 03:57 PM

Thanks Barry, I did'nt know about your R with W's BF. Still I would be mindfull. Thanks for the kind words. I am up some days and down others. Life goes on but *rap its hard.

Take care mate, RD
Posted By: Train

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/26/15 04:16 PM

rd has given you some wise advice about communicating with your W's best friend, Barry. Her allegiance is to your W, not to you. And the thing is, she will most likely tell your W that you had tea and sobbed your heart out and went on and on about a possible OM. Yikes. Not the strong, "I'll-be-fine-either-way" Barry we want to portray, right?

Listen, I'm not trying to kick you while you're down. We all feel weak sometimes and make bad calls. (And it's a bad call because it left YOU hurting and sad and feeling weak and vulnerable. A better call would have been to tell your curiosity to take a backseat, realize that the only thing you had to talk about with W's best fried is W - which is NOT a good topic for you to be discussing with her right now - and then gone on a walk or something instead.)

This DB journey is more about finding yourself than repairing your M. (We hope the former results in the latter.) You said it best, Barry:

I should just carry on with the DB techniques until I feel I'm strong enough to face the worst outcome. Maybe in finding that strength she will see something attractive again.

Don't mention D if that's not what you want. Seek legal advice to protect yourself in case W files. But you don't push the D if you don't want it.

Meanwhile, don't talk to W's best friend about W or your M. It is just going to serve to push your W further away once she finds out you spoke with her at all but especially about your M. And she probably found out the moment you left. That's how us girls are, especially with our best friends.

Take care of you. You will hit some potholes as you walk this path. What's important is learning from them so you don't keep stepping in the same potholes. Anything that damages your PMA needs to be off-limits, especially here in the beginning, okay?

Now, what do you have planned this week to re-build your PMA? Anything fun or daring or adventurous? smile
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/26/15 09:10 PM

Hi Toots,

As usual, you're quite right in your post.
Her allegiance is to W first and foremost.

She probably did tell her I was round there, upset and talking about M. I don't know if she would have said about me talking about an OM, she knows that would just stir things up and make things worse. I know they tell each other everything but I don't think she would be as vindictive as to do that, particularly because of the state I was in. I don't know why, but I was much worse yesterday than I have been since BD. As I say, I think just holding it all in and trying to show the world I'm strong just took its toll.

I dont really want to show the BF that I'm a wreck inside either because it all filters back to W and as you say, just puts me across as weak. I've made a point of only telling her positive things recently so that's what gets back. I know that's a bit manipulative, which I'm not particularly comfortable with but the end justifies the means. The thing I've found as well is that when I'm able to project a strong persona, I actually start to feel a bit better too. Not hopeful about our R or M as such because nothing at all has changed. I must be more careful around WBF for sure though.

I'm trying to keep busy but some of my original plans for this week have fallen through. I'm keeping up with the gym work and am noticing the difference already which is nice. I'm going for dinner with a couple of guys from work one evening this week but I really need to investigate some new things where I can meet new people.
It's nice seeing old or existing friends but meeting new people would force me to think about who I really am too. I'm not likely to meet a new group of people and introduce myself as Barry, the separated 39 year old whose battling to stay afloat!

Anyone have any suggestions?

Barry
Posted By: Karma12

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/26/15 10:41 PM

Hi Barry,

You are going to have good days and bad days. Your whole life has been turned upside down. The important thing is to keep getting back up and taking a step forward. Baby steps count too. : )

If you remind yourself that contacting your wife ( other than needed for the kids) will push her further away it may help you stay strong. Fake it until you make it.

Is their a running or biking group you could join? Sometimes that's a good way to keep busy and make new friends
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/27/15 10:27 AM

I did mean you Train, got a bit mixed up there.

Good advice Karma, I'll try to look at it as baby steps, I think that's the best I can do rght now.
I did contact W this morning about something (I've made a new thread with what it was about - I don't know when threads become locked??), but I will definatly have to start thinking the way you said reference pushing her away by contacting.
Love the "Fake it till you make it" comment.

Barry.
Posted By: theoden

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/27/15 04:28 PM

Barry,

First of all. I think you are are great guy. You are fighting for your marriage, you love you wife and kids. You are a stand-up guy. I'm a fan of yours.

You are feeling much like we all felt in the beginning. I was terrible at divorce busting, bad at laying down boundaries and so desperate to reconcile that I lost myself in the process. I also lost my marriage. In the end it was a blessing, because my wife showed her true character and no-one should be married to a person like that. Having said that, I'm the "red-flag" poster here. I'm the guy who can tell you what NOT to do. ;-)

Here are some things that are part of the dynamic that are helpful to note.

1. Though you are very hurt, showing weakness and vulnerability, and desperate desire to reconcile will only turn-off your wife more.

2. You children will generally side with whomever they perceive to be the stronger parent. Often in an affair, they side with person cheating or wanting the divorce), since they are happy, purposeful, clear and filled with endorphins. The betrayed spouse looks and acts like road-kill. If you are a dependent, weak child in a harsh world and you have to side with one of two people: they choose the abuser since the one being bludgeoned doesn't look like they'll survive the ordeal, much less be able to take care of them. My wife got my kids to ask me to leave the house. At the time she was screwing another man and bringing him to the house for lunch to meet the kids while I was out working to support the family. Obscene isn't it? I also notice your wife is probably better at laying down boundaries better than you are. "Stay out of MY room" she says, and you apologize. In other words, YOUR mental picture and behavior, strange as it may sound, needs to be more like what your wife is like. She's happy strong and confident.

3. Don't expect your kids to break their routine to reach out to you to hang out. You need to schedule those times. My kids are the same.

4. Personally, I think a f*ck you attitude towards your wife right now is the only healthy place you can be. It's a matter of survival. The stronger you are, (emotionally, financially and physically) the more your kids will gravitate to you. Also it's more likely to attract your wife back. Please also read the *** site to get you laughing and get a little fire in your belly.

Theoden
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/27/15 11:51 PM

Hi Theoden,

Thanks for your kind words, I really appreciate that, and I also think you're a great guy too with lots of good advice and knowledge. It's great to have people like you here on this site to advise us newbies where we're going wrong..and right.

Sunday (the day at WBF's) has really bothered me that I let myself go like that in front of someone who, although is a friend to me too, will surely have told W most if not all of what I said. I still don't think she would have told her about the OM concerns I expressed, and I can say that she certainly didn't appear to be lying about there not being one. I have some experience through my work of sniffing out the lies in people and have a fairly high succes rate.

I was really cross with myself on Monday and felt I'd taken a big step backwards in my personal feelings about the sitch. I've had to stop, take a breath, and tell myself that I can't change what I did or said and to move on from here with a better attitude.

The BF would certainly have told W about me being upset (it was more than that TBH, it was the worst I've ever been if the truth be told), so I've decided to try and steer clear of her for the time being until I can control my emotions better. I'm sure the meds I have for my depression/anxiety played some sort of role in getting to where I was on Sunday, although I do feel they are helping in the long run. The effects are cumulative and take a few weeks to really kick in I've read.

Although I do desperately want to reconcile, I am really committed to the DB techniques that I've been advised on and read about on this site. They seem to be my best chance of saving myself, if not necessarily my M. My book hasn't arrived yet (that's the UK postal system for you) but hopefully it will be hear soon. I'm itching to read the whole thing to try and understand it all better. Don't get me wrong, I get the gist of it from everyone's kind (or not so kind but necassary) advice to me but I think the book is a must if I'm to get the most from this site and you guys.

Regarding the kids, my S20 and S18 are on my "side" if that's the way to put it. I don't really want there to be any sides as such but I'm not sure that's possible. My D15 is probably siding with W, I guess from the comments she's been subjected to over Christmas when they were away from home. Its obviously because they are both females too. I'm not saying that my D is somehow against me (although she does know how to upset me in an instant - a talent she gets from W) **note to self, that has to stop...and today, but I think she's of the opinion that this is all somehow for the best. That is W talking.

My S13 is having some issues at school, which started before the current sitch, but I'm sure have something to do with the issues between W and I over the last 18 months. Not all because of but its a contributing factor. He outwardly appears indifferent in some ways to what is happening, but I personally think that he believes we will reconcile as we did last year. W sees it that he's the one coping with it best out of all 4 of them, on that we disagree.

All four of them are aware of the reasons I moved out etc, and I do only try to show strength and a positive frame of mind when I''m with them or talk to them. Me and the boys went for food and bowling tonight which was great, my D couldn't make it, and I will admit that I text'd W to see if she wanted to come too. That offer was really an olive branch which she could take or leave, we were going regardless and I was sure to let her know as much. She said no anyway.

Reference the bedroom being HER room, as much as I don't like that, that is actually the case at the moment. I wouldn't want her in my room at my parents either (with my 37 rules pinned to the wall along with bits and pieces of good advice on here I've printed off). A simple apology seemed to be more appropriate than a harsh f*** you at the time TBH. I do agree that I need to exude happiness, confidence, and strength at all times bar when I'm alone or with a few select friends though.

I'm not sure I'm at the point where I can have a FY attitude towards her just yet (certainly not openly anyway). What I've really tried to start to get my head around today is thinking of what my life is going to be like without her. I have to say that it's not an attractive thought but one that I can't keep pushing away as currently, that's exactly what is going to happen. I really am starting to realise that I can only change myself to be "someone only a fool would leave", be that her, or another fool I may meet one day if that's how it turns out.

I've started another thread "This can't be the end! #2" as I guess this one will lock up soon due to the number of posts (all of which I'm very appreciative of, no matter what the content). Thank you to everyone so far, please keep with me, I still need all the support I can get!!

I know the site you mean Theoden, I saw it the other day but I'm not sure it's for me just yet.

Sorry for the long post, that's something else I have on my list...to get my point across by saying less!

Barry.
Posted By: Karma12

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/28/15 07:14 AM

Better to spew it all out here Barry. When you fake it until you make it it means you are showing in front of her what you want to project but are not totally able to yet. Be strong in front of her the. Come here and vent, spew ect!

This is all life changing. Sometimes our lives get shook up to awaken us. What is your lesson in all this?
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/28/15 11:11 AM

What is my lesson in all this?

Thatís a very good question Karma, which Iíve been thinking a lot about over the last few days.
Iíve started making a list, and this is the current top 10..

1. You never know anyone as well as you think you do.
2. My own happiness shouldnít, and canít be gauged by anotherís.
3. I am not in control of anything but my own decisions and feelings.
4. Never again will I open my heart to anyone the way I have previously.
5. No one loves someone who doesnít love themselves.
6. Life is about progress, not perfection.
7. Forgiveness is different from second chances.
8. Have no expectations from life to avoid disappointment or hurt.
9. The soul knows what to do to heal, the trick is to silence the mind.
10. You never know anyone as well as you think you do.

Your tag line of ďAccept what is...let go of what was and have faith in what will beĒ is great too.
It should be on the list but I chose to put No1. twice instead.

Barry.
Posted By: Barry

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/28/15 12:12 PM

I would like to add something which isn't so much a lesson as much as a statement I keep in the front of my mind.
That is that I love my wife and children more that anything in the world, and it's still very important to me that I do everything possible to bring us together as a family unit. Ultimatley, it may be out of my hands of course, but that is what I want for ME.

Even if it's not meant to be in this order, my priorities would probably still be 1) children, 2) wife, 3) me. That's just the way I'm built.
I realise I'm not even on her list right now, and I can't change her mind. All I can do is try to make myself a better person, the Barry I want to be for my own stability and health. I'm not a bad person and I have a lot of love to give, but as lesson No4. says above, I will never be able to fully open myself to anyone (not even my W) again after the last year's events. I can't.

I know I'm not alone in feeling this way, but to love the person who has hurt you the most does seem like a ridiculous concept.
I'm sure there is a limit to it, which I hope I don't have to reach.

As it stands, I am willing to truly forgive and reconcile with my W, but only if I 100% believe (and she shows) that she is willing to work on the M and give it her all. There will need to be clear boundries from both of us which need to be agreed to and maybe she won't want to agree to some of mine (or I to hers) which will scupper any hopes of reconciliation.
However, if we can agree on these things, stick at it, and it still doesn't work, we can both walk away with our heads held high that we gave it everything we had. Currently, I don't feel that's what we're doing and it feels like she's just thrown in the towel.
I believe she feels that she's tried to work this out in every way already.

I can't make her of course, but I think she needs to really have a good look at some of her weak points and her part in the demise of our M. She will fall foul of this again (even if that not be with me) unless she does some soul searching of her own.
Of course, I may not be around to see that happen, but I don't want to see her hurt, no matter how much she has hurt me.
I'll always love her I guess, no matter what the outcome of our sitch.

I don't want our M to end, but nor do I want either of us to feel unhappy most of the time, for either of us to feel un-loved, or our children to suffer as a result of a strained R.
As I say, I am willing to commit to reconciliation, and am aware that it will be a long road even if the outcome is what we all hope for in our sitch's. Unfortunatley, my W is not in the same place as me right now and maybe never will be.

It's still very early days in our sitch, but I won't wait forever.

Barry.
Posted By: Sotto

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/28/15 02:20 PM

Hi Barry

I'll apologise in advance if I'm not fully update with your sitch. I'm just responding to your most recent posting.

There are a lot of 'what ifs' in there. If we were ever to reconcile, there would need to be this and that etc. But you do say elsewhere that you know this isn't on your W's radar right now. And I agree, if your sitch is like most on here, it will take considerable time (if ever) before your W is interested in reconciliation. So, for now, I think this is cheeseless tunnel thinking, and you would be better shifting your focus onto yourself.

You say elsewhere in your post that you need to work on making yourself a better person. Have you identified what you want to do and how you are going to approach this? It would be great to see a post from you, putting your W aside, and talking about Barry and his life going forwards. Of course, your W may ask to rejoin you in that life at some point....or she may not...but if you get to the point you are happy with that life, you will detach more from the reconciliation outcome.

Also, watch yourself there with the 'never' thinking - "I'll never be able to fully open myself to anyone." At the moment, whilst things may hurt (and I know the hurt is excruciating), you will, with time and effort, feel better about them. And at this point, there's no telling how open you might be to your W or someone else at some point in the future. It would be more accurate (and helpful) to say that "it will take time and effort before I could trust my W (or someone) else again." That's better than the kind of "hopeless" thinking, which consigns your to a life of non-connection with potential future partners.

I agree with what others have said about W's friend. Best to only offer her the DB version of you going forwards. H & I have a mutual friend, who has kept in touch with us both, and I haven't always been as careful with her as I should have been. That undermines efforts that you may be making elsewhere, so best avoid allowing yourself to be vulnerable and emotional where this is going to be relayed to your W.

So, maybe have a think about the following:

*Barry's plan for becoming the person he wants to be
*Challenging pessimistic/hopeless thinking

These would be a good step in the right direction. Hope this is helpful! Toots :-)
Posted By: theoden

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/28/15 05:32 PM

Barry,

I think you can open up to other people again. The difference will be that in the future you will be meeting more of you own needs, and clearer on what you want THEREFORE your love for them will be based on a healthier self-perception. Maybe the WAY you opened up in the past wasn't the healthiest. I'm confident you can love even MORE deeply. If you are relentlessly committed to your own growth and flourishing, the woman you love (be it your current wife, or the next Mrs. Barry), will open up and flourish at your purposeful and ravishing love. You will become a samurai of love. ;-)

The whole kids, wife, me (priorities) hierarchy is what we all should THINK we want in the best of times. It's honorable.

Right now, perhaps, it needs to be Kids, YOU, friends, and your wife somewhere like #6 or #7 on the list. Why? Because in the balance of power, prioritizing her above yourself NOW, while she's made you disposable, makes you less attractive, SUBSTANTIAL, formidable or interesting. No one wants to be fawned over by the person they are kicking. It's makes the abuser more ruthless. It's also a strange spiritual principal, even taught by Jesus, "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces" Yes, Jesus taught going the extra mile and loving one's enemies, but he also taught us to be wise and discerning. If you reconcile there will be a time for putting your wife before you again -- that's good and true. But now is not the time. That's my opinion.

Best of luck, Barry. My prayers are with you.

--Theoden
Posted By: Cadet

Re: This can't be the end! - 01/28/15 07:34 PM

Link to new thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2531393#Post2531393
Posted By: Mozza

Re: This can't be the end! - 02/01/15 11:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Barry
Even if it's not meant to be in this order, my priorities would probably still be 1) children, 2) wife, 3) me. That's just the way I'm built.

Sorry, I'm jumping in without having read your entire threads, but have you been recommended "Nor More Mr Nice Guy"? I'm reading it right now and there's a section that explains why this sorting of priorities is likely to make you lose your W and kids. There are a few other clues in your posts that tells me you would benefit from reading this book and the perspective it would give you about yourself. Also, it's very often recommended around here and informs the philosophy of several vets.
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