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T0324 continued part 2

Posted By: T384

T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 12:10 AM

Previous thread locked

Plans came to a screeching hault. My grandma is in ICU where she lives a few states away. My mom is driving up there now. H is still not home and haven't received a text from him.

Trying to keep my blood from boiling over. He just relinquishes all parent duties. Comes home whenever he wants because he knows the boys are taken care of. A courtesy text or SOMETHING would be nice.

So much for my GAL plan.

If he does come home I will not be trying to talk to him. No good will come out of me tonight. I sent him a text saying my grandma was in the ICU and didn't get a response.

I'm going to be leaving the house tomorrow with the boys to go strawberry picking and to do who else knows what.

Do I offer him to go? I feel kind of bitchy if I just leave.

I was thinking of saying. The boys and are leaving at X time to go pick strawberries if you'd like to come and leaving it at that.

I'm still just stunned... I know I shouldn't be. But the way he has shut me out so quickly for reasons he can't even tell me. I just feel like time has rewound and we are repeating last year
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 04:11 AM

Quote:
Do I offer him to go? I feel kind of bitchy if I just leave.

I was thinking of saying. The boys and are leaving at X time to go pick strawberries if you'd like to come and leaving it at that.

I'm still just stunned... I know I shouldn't be. But the way he has shut me out so quickly for reasons he can't even tell me. I just feel like time has rewound and we are repeating last year


I wouldn't recommend asking him to go. Just follow the plan.

Why would a woman pursue a man and ask him to do things with her when he is basically flat out rejecting her? I just don't understand. Show him you value yourself. That is done by quiet confidence and backing way off. Back off as far as he is backed off. This is a must.

I would even consider not telling him anything. If he is silent to you then leave him to his silence. Just get the kids ready, hop in the car and go...... Don't act mad or rude.. Just go about your business.. You must wait this out until HE COMES TO YOU.. If it takes awhile.. So be it. Trying to get him to talk is not going to work. Toughen up here. I know these things about men.. wink

In your own little world...
Independent activities...
No relationship talks..
Let him wonder what has changed in your demeanor...

I repeat.. Talking will do no good if you bring it up. You must wait him out by backing off to the point that he seems oblivious to you.
Make plans without him. Find a girlfriend you can text back and forth with so that you can also be mysterious..

No anger. No reaching out. Be cordial if he initiates, but keep your cards close to your vest here....

Pushing or getting angry or constantly wanting to talk to a man that is acting like your man is, does not work. You need to know and learn that lesson. I thought you had learned it before.

You did this before and you can do it again.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 04:45 AM

Thanks JCred

He is here now and sleeping next to me. He asked if we were going to the movies earlier. I told him it was up to him. He said he was tired. So I poured myself a glass of wine.

He made a point to tell me when he got into bed that he was really tired and hasn't been sleeping... Almost like letting me know not to bother him. I didn't bite.

I had thought the best idea was to just take the boys and go. I just didn't want to come off bitchy which was the only reason I thought to invite him. However. With him coming home late and having no regard for us here we will go about our day.

He kissed me goodnight and told me he loved me. But he is very stand offish. His vibe is definitely not normal and not okay with me.

I don't know if he's trying to keep the peace in the meantime, is confused, or is just a manipulator or all 3!

I still haven't brought up MC. I don't know that I will. If he's not all into this then no point In him going. I think I might send him a text Wednesday saying ... Just a heads up I will be home late tonight, would you mind making sure the boys have everything ready for school. If he asks why then I will tell him if he does not then I will be mysterious.

Is there hope for him returning to who he was for our M and these last few months or did our S really change him? I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. I don't want to walk on eggshells
Posted By: Maybell

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 04:59 AM

You won't spend the rest of your life on eggshells because you know better.

Your H is a fool too. Here's to us, T!
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 05:09 AM

Cheers Maybell smile thinking of you tonight

I just don't get him sleeping back in our room now... This is the first time in days. The first time he's said a word to me in person in days, I haven't been kissed by him since Sunday nor an. I love you

So why now?

I didn't drop everything to follow through on the movies, left it up to him. Didn't argue when he said he was tired.
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 05:09 AM

Quote:
He made a point to tell me when he got into bed that he was really tired and hasn't been sleeping... Almost like letting me know not to bother him. I didn't bite.


Excellent. This is good news. That's a plus that he said he loved you. Let him come to you. Don't bother him if that is what you sense. Good job. Just stay backed off. Not rude. Not mean. In your own world.


Quote:
I don't know if he's trying to keep the peace in the meantime, is confused, or is just a manipulator or all 3!


Stay backed off and we will find out won't we?
Let him come to you. Quiet confidence. No pursuit. NONE, nada, zilch, zero...

Quote:
I still haven't brought up MC. I don't know that I will.


Nope. Don't bring it up. We are backed off now. Bringing it up is nagging and pursuit. We wouldn't want to nag him now would we? grin He wants silence and mystery, then that's what we give him... Independent activities...... In your own little world.....

Quote:
Is there hope for him returning to who he was for our M and these last few months or did our S really change him? I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. I don't want to walk on eggshells


Sure there is hope. If you go back and read what I told you when you first reconciled, I really did tell you to make him earn it. You didn't and now we have to get it straightened out. Let's go back to what worked. The only way to stop walking on eggshells here is to leave him alone, go about your business, show a change in demeanor, stop any and all relationship talks. Find something else in your life to be passionate about. Let him to his thoughts.

You have a hard time not talking to him and just being silent, correct? Until you conquer that issue, then he will continue to do this when he "feels" like it. I recommend giving him the silent treatment right back. Not mean, not vindictive. If he doesn't say anything, then you don't....

Please trust me on this. I know men like this. What gets to them is the same thing that they do to you.. Wait him out. It will pay off.

Go back to what worked.. You were going out, having fun, leaving him alone and even wondered if you loved him and wanted him back at one point.. Seems to me that when you were doing those things that is when he came back. STRONGLY CAME BACK I might add....
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 05:23 AM

I do take a lot of the blame. I made it easy for him and we fell back into our life.

I just am afraid if I'm silent then I'm out of sight out of mind. Maybe he's realizing he doesn't really love me or want me in his life as his W. And yes I have a hard time being silent. I do fine while at work which I was completely silent for days and didn't hear from him.

I know nothing that's going on in his life ... Is he going back to his old job? Why is he working late, etc?

I know I can't ask about any of these things but it's just hard to go from full on R back to silence.

His mom told me he believes I am looking for things to keep reliving the past. I guess he's been talking to her a little about everything.

ETA:
By the way he hated me going out. He brought it upast week and brought it up before that. He does not like me going out drinking with my friends. So I'm fairly certain that would be unattractive to him. I think what gets to him is the kids and I going out and doing things.
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 05:49 AM

Quote:
I do take a lot of the blame. I made it easy for him and we fell back into our life.


You are actually taking too MUCH of the blame. That shows me that your confidence is down. That shows me that maybe HE is bringing you down. People with low self esteem feel better when they bring others down. You have to rise above this. If you don't value yourself, then how do you expect him to value you? You did make it too easy for him. That was my concern. I was so proud of you for how you initially were handling things when he wanted back. He was doing EVERYTHING. Don't you see that even now?

Quote:
I just am afraid if I'm silent then I'm out of sight out of mind. Maybe he's realizing he doesn't really need me.


Quite the opposite. This man doesn't have a pot to p###s in if he goes on his own. He can't handle money. YOU are the one who is good with money. Maybe the truth is that you don't really need him.. I ask myself why a woman would want a man who acts like this.. Why? My take is fear. My take is that your self esteem is beaten down again. Now what kind of man lets his wife self esteem get to this point when all she wants is to make him happy?

And you are asking me if he is realizing he doesn't need you?
I think YOU should be asking yourself if you really need him.


Quote:
I do fine while at work which I was completely silent for days and didn't hear from him.


I think you have to be willing to go as long as it takes.
So be it. What is your worth to yourself? Why would you want to try to force a man to communicate when he is showing you he doesn't want to?

In my opinion you have allowed him to not have to step up to the plate. If you don't do it, then it wouldn't get done, right? Well, that may work for finances, but it ruins relationships.

Quote:
I know nothing that's going on in his life ... Is he going back to his old job? Why is he working late, etc?


In my experience, it usually means there is another woman that has his interest.

Another question I wonder is.. Why would a woman blame herself and pursue a man who won't let her know what is going on in his life? What kind of man does that to a woman who wants only to make him happy?

I still believe for now to back off. No talks. In your own little world. Go out and have some fun of your own. Hold tough. Do some thinking......

Go back to that confident, independent, who needs this woman that had a hop in her step and try to stop allowing him to bring you down. You can do this. Men respond to women who give them a little challenge when needed. Maybe he is bored. Who knows? What matters here is getting YOU back on track. I believe he will pick up the pace when you "let him go"...
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 03:20 PM

Everything you say makes total sense... And I am working to get back in that mindset. It's just taking time to get there because it's a 180 from living a M life. He is just so quiet and seems so miserable.

He told me he doesn't need any extra stress this morning. To which my rebuttal was you're right and neither do I. My feelings should be a concern and a priority too. I don't need this just like you don't nor do I want this. He told me that he doesn't talk to anyone but people I know and just doesn't want to live a life where I have to go through his phone secretively. I just said that when you're distant, you act differently and you hide your phone you give me reasons to wonder what is up with that and I don't like it. We should both be an open book to each other, I need to feel that with everything thats happened in the last year. He just said okay didn't seem to want to say anything so I dropped it and he went outside.

After that conversation I am done with questions. He knows I feel he's up to something and being secretive. I told him I don't need this or want this stress. So now I can go about my day as if.

I won't be bringing anything up at all. The ball is in his court now. He can choose his next play at this point.

He needs to feel like he's going to lose me if he doesn't get his sh!t together. His excuses are lame at best. It is MY fault for making it easy. It's his fault for not working when he knows he needs to and his M is in jeopardy.

As 25 days I will be keeping the road paved smooth. Trying not to involve any family or friends. His mom does know but it's because he tells her. She does tell me some things she says but I don't offer anything short of a thank you and hopefully he will figure out what he wants in his life and doesn't make a mistake.
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 06:44 PM

T0,

Just my .02, and this is something that has helped me kinda compartmentalize things from an "operations" standpoint - both in my own sitch and when I'm chatting with others here about theirs:

The actual process of piecing requires both partners making a commitment to actively work on their M. During piecing, you do things that are actually quite opposite from DBing.

You were in piecing for a while, when H first came back. And you hung in there, and tried to keep him there with you, until as recently as earlier this week.

But now it's time for YOU to flip the switch from piecing back to DBing.

I think that's a very simplified way of looking at it. And it's also why our advice has changed from "deliver your needs to him" to "go out with your friends, be mysterious and be short in your communications with him."

You're right: You are sorta back at Square One and back to the days of DBing - this time with him at home so far. JCred has provided plenty of refresher-pointers on that.

I haven't had to flip a switch from piecing back to DBing, so I can only imagine how confusing - and exhausting - it must feel.

Just remember to do what works. And you KNOW what works. But make sure you know the difference between what works in piecing and what works in DBing. It's going to be wildly different things.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 09:50 PM

Originally Posted By: T0324
Previous thread locked

Plans came to a screeching hault. My grandma is in ICU where she lives a few states away. My mom is driving up there now. H is still not home and haven't received a text from him.

It's not your h's fault that your grandma is ill. It's just sad. I believe you must stop placing so many expectations on him that are NOT clear or enunciated.

You seem to want him to KNOW what you want or need and he doesn't. The anger in you, is not your friend. It is why he thinks you will never let go of the past, and frankly, you haven't.


Trying to keep my blood from boiling over. He just relinquishes all parent duties. Comes home whenever he wants because he knows the boys are taken care of. A courtesy text or SOMETHING would be nice.


Imagine you are him now. Just for 5 minutes, speak from HIS perspective and show empathy. B/C I believe you are lacking it at the moment and that is not serving You well.

So much for my GAL plan.

Wait....Why is HE to blame for you not GAL now? B/C your grandma is sick and he doesn't know that he needs to take care of the kids, or what?

How can you GAL without his help? Trust me, there are ways.


If he does come home I will not be trying to talk to him. No good will come out of me tonight. I sent him a text saying my grandma was in the ICU and didn't get a response.


What is it you want or need him to say to you? Seriously. I'm asking

I'm going to be leaving the house tomorrow with the boys to go strawberry picking and to do who else knows what.

Do I offer him to go? I feel kind of bitchy if I just leave.

I was thinking of saying. The boys and are leaving at X time to go pick strawberries if you'd like to come and leaving it at that.

I'm still just stunned... I know I shouldn't be.


Correct, you shouldn't be "Stunned", which I think is code for angry again. Stop expecting of him b/c I"m sure he feels set up to fail, and start living your life.

But the way he has shut me out so quickly for reasons he can't even tell me. I just feel like time has rewound and we are repeating last year



So, how are YOU behaving any differently? B/C remember, you are all that you control.


Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 10:04 PM


Watch how your perspective poisons the interactions below...


Originally Posted By: T0324
Thanks JCred

He is here now and sleeping next to me. He asked if we were going to the movies earlier. I told him it was up to him. He said he was tired. So I poured myself a glass of wine.


Not sure but the vibe I'm getting here^^ is that you are angry that he said he is tired....but you won't come out and say that - b/c, possibly, you know how that would sound to us. But if it's real, own it and work on it if you see that it's not healthy or helpful to your situation.


He made a point to tell me when he got into bed that he was really tired and hasn't been sleeping... Almost like letting me know not to bother him. I didn't bite.


Bite...bite on What? He said he's tired, but apparently that is "wrong" of him.

Can you Put your dukes down and see if you two can connect? Let us be clear. What is your goal? No, I mean it, what is your goal? I can't tell if you want to be declared "right" and him "Wrong" or if he has to suffer some more b/c you fear you "let him off too easily" though I"m positive he does not see it that way

and I don't know how you have changed, substantively. Sure, you word things differently but right under your skin I sense so much seething resentment just from what you write here, it's hard to believe it's not radiating from you.

And that's not something most men want to come home to...sorry

I had thought the best idea was to just take the boys and go. I just didn't want to come off bitchy which was the only reason I thought to invite him. However. With him coming home late and having no regard for us here we will go about our day.


So, you "didn't want to come off bitchy" ---but he came home AND said he's tired..(!!!!) ..so now you are mad at him. Which proves...what?


He kissed me goodnight and told me he loved me. But he is very stand offish. His vibe is definitely not normal and not okay with me.


Wow...need I say anything about this^^^ or can you do the math? There is a phrase around here that says "'but' is BS" meaning that when you say something and then follow with the "But"< it negates everything you said before.

It's your set up for criticism while pretending to be fair.


I don't know if he's trying to keep the peace in the meantime, is confused, or is just a manipulator or all 3!

Please, please read what you are writing! See your words and their meaning here^^.

He said he loves you BUT BUT BUT he's "confused or a manipulator or "just trying to keep the peace"....(well, who wouldn't want to keep the peace? Why is that a negative? What is it you want to keep?)

You have to lose your anger and lose the scorecard b/c this is NOT helping you at all.


I still haven't brought up MC. I don't know that I will.


Please don't. It sounds, to me like another chance to pile on him with all the unmet expectations you have, while pretending to be starting fresh.

Remember in the vows where they say "from this day forward"?

I think you need to use those^^ words and really take them to heart,

or you will keep on harping on the past, even if it's all internal. It's radiating from you.



If he's not all into this then no point In him going. I think I might send him a text Wednesday saying ... Just a heads up I will be home late tonight, would you mind making sure the boys have everything ready for school. If he asks why then I will tell him if he does not then I will be mysterious.


But if he does not ask, you get to be mad, right? OR if he asks and then does not react the way you secretly want him to react, you get to be mad, right? And if he goes but does not "Show enough remorse" you also get to be mad, right?

When it comes to marriage counseling, of all things, be clear.

Otherwise You are just setting him up. My question is, why?


Is there hope for him returning to who he was for our M and these last few months or did our S really change him? I don't want to do this for the rest of my life. I don't want to walk on eggshells


Well, my gut says he feels the ^^^ same way.

You put him under a microscope and pretended to start fresh and forgive, when you had not done the work.

What are you going to do now, that is different?
Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 10:13 PM

Here's an example of what I did, that I believe relates to your situation at present.

My h is an MD. I've been thru the whole shebang of med school internship and residency and then staff... He worked most holidays for well over a decade and often still does.

When he'd take extra cases, it drove me nuts. That's b/c his hours were unrelentingly long, so I wanted/needed him home more. Even when I wasn't working, I wanted him home more.

We have 3 kids and they missed him, as did I. Of course, I did Not really say that to him often. Instead, I said "I need more help" and "you work too much".

I believed (internally) that he took the extra cases for

1) more accolades from his colleagues, 2) more money,
3) the challenge and or

4) the patient needed him more than others.

Sometimes, I'm sure it was for reasons I would not agree with, like #1 and 2.

But what matters -- is how I chose to respond.


When he came home late, I'd be at the doors with my arms crossed, figuratively speaking if not literally.

I did not want to welcome him home warmly, b/c then I'd be "rewarding" his "bad" behavior. I believed that type of nonsense, for years.

Thing is, my brilliant punitive "I'll show him!" approach had been failing for years. But did I change that? NO! NOT ME! I kept on doing what did Not work.

Why?

B/C I was "right" to be upset and b/c I did not feel like his priority...and If I don't feel important, that's HIS fault...

Gee, too bad I didn't give him a home life to miss.

Too bad it did not dawn on me that welcoming him home with a loving hug and some happy kids, would have been far more successful than carping ever was.

Too bad I didn't show my love more. Too bad I withheld so much from him, as if it was a risky move to be more loving. IT's not! It is far riskier to withhold love from our spouses....far far riskier and more dangerous.

Too bad my pride and self righteous anger, interfered with my learning process.

Too bad indeed.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/10/15 11:03 PM

25 you pose some difficult questions and your post is quite eye opening to me. I am by no means perfect what so ever and I still have a lot to work on.

You are pretty spot on with how I feel right now and you're right. Who would want to come home to me? It hasn't been like this. Something changed. I can't pinpoint it. It was both of us but it sure did change and when he backed off I started getting resentful. Is he cheating? Does he miss OW? Is he lying about not being paid and saving up money for an apartment?

I don't know how to deal with that entirely... I feel like I walk on eggshells and I'm sure he does feel the same way. the way I have tried to look at things is to cool off before I bring anything up. I guess I just thought I would have the easy way out. I honestly (and stupidly) thought ... He loves me. He made a mistake. I have changed --- I won't ask about finances. He realizes what he has. Everything is going to be great. And it was -- until it wasn't. That's the honest truth.

And it is not his fault my grandmother is sick. I just meant he is so out of touch- he loves my grandma and is so close to her and right now it doesn't matter to him. As far as GAL - he wasn't at fault for that. I wasn't blaming it on him I was just meaning my back up babysitter had fallen through and he wasn't home yet so I would be staying home.


And you are right. I am very angry. How do I let go of that? I am angry that he is going to go back to work at his ex bosss's where OW is and that his job is his number one priority (his words). I am angry that I was his number one and he couldn't keep his hands off me to now it's the exact opposite. I am angry that whenever we do talk it is my fault. Well you did this and you did that - he can't own one thing he's done. He brings up the past yet I'm not supposed to bring up his past (which I have not brought up OW since October with the exception of the job discussion)

Really my different behavior is finances - that was his problem with me - finances and not appreciating him. Now I do not discuss finances unless it is brought up by him and I tell him I appreciate him using those specific words. Just like today he cut the grass - I said thanks for cutting the grass I really appreciate it


I guess the But part is difficult to understand via Internet. I do get what you're saying. Yes he said he loved me and kissed me. Its his behavior is off. He's hiding his phone and being super distant and he was doing this before our argument. My behavior towards him hadn't changed. I would try to hold his hand, like he used to initiate and he doesn't reciprocate. He makes me feel like
I'm an annoyance. I tried to tell him ... I need you to be more affectionate because I was told I need to clearly communicate my needs but that doesn't work for H. I did it for weeks and nothing changed. I should changed my plan of attack but I didn't. I got angry and resentful and the wheels started turning of why isn't he doing this. I got more angry and pushed him away further. My feelings were hurt. Hell they are still hurt. I feel like I can't make him happy.

There is no right or wrong here. The scorecard is erased. I have moved forward as best as I can but when his behavior changes it makes me wonder what's going on and then I get wondering about the phone etc.


I hope I am making sense. I am trying to touch on all your points but it's difficult on the phone. So if I miss something please let me know.

I basically just want to know what to do. We have spent the whole day together. I struggle with distancing myself and wanting to do nice things for him but it would be pursuing.

I can forgive. I thought I had forgiven. I actually have forgiven what happened but I am struggling with right now. I still feel like he should be trying... I just feel like he was wrong he wanted to come back he asked me what I needed I told him. He gave it to me. Now a few months later he takes all those things I needed away. I'm not saying in anyway that I am free of contribution to where we are now but I'm not giving up. I feel like he has. He is checked out

Where on earth do I go from here

And as far as Mc. I don't know if I'm going to bring it up. I really don't think he will go. But I did not intend on living in the past. Our last few sessions we didn't talk about the A as much as we talked about how did we get that point so we can avoid it in the future.

Also, he was supposed to be planning weekly date nights , that went away. Everything stopped in November. I really don't know why.
Posted By: gan

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/11/15 12:11 AM

What about IC/MC just for you, T0? To help with some of that anger and processing.

Remember - it takes one to tango. I you can set up some more healthy communication patterns, he's likely to respond favourably to them.
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/11/15 05:47 AM

Quote:
You put him under a microscope and pretended to start fresh and forgive, when you had not done the work.




Actually she did do the work. He SHOULD be put under a microscope after all he did. She would be silly not to. This is a man who left his wife for a young 18 year old, swore and cussed at her and told her he hated her, spent thousands and thousands of dollars on vacations with an 18 year old, and SCREAMED that they were done. He treated his wife like crap the whole time, threw it in her face, stole her car and a number of other things.

He SHOULD be under a microscope. He is lucky she took him back. He DID make promise after promise about what he needed to do to reconcile. This is HIS issue and HE is dropping the ball.

There is a HUGE difference in welcoming with loving arms a man who works late and his wife is aware he does and a man who says he works late and doesn't call her to let her know and is acting distant and mysterious and basically again treating her like dirt....

I am telling you again TO.. The best way to handle this type of man is to do what I suggested. Of course you are angry. Who wouldn't be? You SHOULD be angry after what he put you through and then made promise after promise on how he was going to change. You have been MORE than willing to do your part. I think you know that. The key here is to do what works.

What works is to back off and do what I suggested. Don't take the blame for him dropping the ball here. The problem has been that he will not respond to talking it out or relationship talks.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/11/15 03:41 PM

Thanks JCred

I do have faults in all of this but he was pretty terrible while he was away. He made promises up and down that he didn't keep. He has taken away what my deal breakers are and as I said to 25 in my last reply I am angry.

He said he wanted to go with us yesterday - I did not invite him. He was out in the garage. The boys and I were dressed and I said we were going out for the day .. He said okay I'll get ready. I said if you have stuff to do around here the boys and I are happy to just go. He said no I'll go.

He came and had a good day. He wasn't affectionate towards me at all. We did talk in the car like normal but no hand holding or anything. He kissed me goodnight last night and slept in the bed. I didnt initiate anything all day. No R talk, nothing. I plan on doing the same all week.
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/11/15 04:14 PM

Quote:
Thanks JCred


You are welcome... You have done an OUTSTANDING job in your situation since the beginning of this when he left you.

I want to post the update you gave us back in August when your H asked to meet with you when HE wanted back. Please note all the promises he made to you. Also note how much he opened up and kept pushing to talk when YOU DIDN'T WANT TO TALK. When you stayed backed off is when HE PUSHED... Pushed HARD.. Made promise after promise...


So as far as my long overdue update from Saturdays dinner I summarized as best as I could....

Okay well sorry this is long overdue but here we go. I'm sure I will get some 2x4's but as most of you know with the exception of H and I having a conversation a few weeks ago we really never talked about anything other than he was unhappy and it was over

So I got out of work early and agreed to meet H. If you guys remmeber he asked because he wanted to try and figure stuff out together before the lawyers. So I said, 'sure H I will meet you to discuss legal stuff but I just want to be upfront I can't agree to anything without my lawyers advice'. So he insisted on coming over and us driving together so we did. I was busy on the phone - paying a couple bills and texting. We get to dinner order some appetizers and had a couple drinks. Afte about 20 minutes he says. I really wanted to invite you to tell you how sorry I am. I said okay. He said I just want you to know I know how much I've [censored] up. I stayed quiet. He proceeded. I have made so many mistakes and I can't believe all of the things I've done to you and our family. I still remained quiet. He said do you think there's any chance we can figure things out together. I played dumb and said yes that's why I said we would meet let's see if we can compromise. He said no I mean us. I want you back. I want to prove to you I am the man you married and that. I will do anything for you and to make this right

He went on about how much he hurt me and that he and her did start talking before he left but nothing happened until after. He said they did talk Inappropriately and that she told him he deserved way better and that he fell for her [censored]. He said she is the biggest mistake In his life. He said he has been feeling regret since basketball started. He said he made his mind up back in July when he was in the keys with her and her family and he has been struggling with anger and couldn't see how he felt or figure it out til he got his own apartment.

I ended up having some tears at dinner saying you have broke me into a million pieces. I said I've been waiting so long to hear this and these last few weeks I really feel like I can finally see my life without it being revolved around you. I don't need you to make me happy. He said he knows and he deserves for me to never take him back and that I deserve to be happy

We ended up walking to the car. He grabbed me for a hug and whispered what do I have to do? I said H you know the first thing. He said quit my job? I said yes. Then he says well I'm doing really well there what if I just come to work and leave and don't talk to anyone. I said are you serious? I said are we really here again? I can't imagine you would think It would be okay to work for that family and run into the daughter all the time. I'm sorry but that's a non negotiable for me. I said I want to go please take me home.

He ended up tearing up in the car asking me over and over what I wanted. I just said I can't get into this right now I wasn't prepared for this conversation I would just like to go home and we can meet and talk about it another time. He kept pushing and I just sat there quiet. We stopped and I got out to pump gas and he called a friend that had been offering him a job for the last year. I got in the car and he goes it's done. I am going to X for a job interview first thing Monday. I stil stayed quiet and just said oh that's good.

He said I love you and I am willing to do anything to make this work. I am going to prove to you that I'm going to be the best husband and father and I will be there fighting for you for as long as it takes. He ended up coming inside the house with me and helping puf the boys to bed

Like I said about the flowers Sunday and then he met a few of my friends and I for drinks two nights ago.





So for you to feel like you are too blame for his behavior lately is just not true.

Now let's review yesterday....

Quote:
He said he wanted to go with us yesterday - I did not invite him.


See how that works with this guy? When you don't pressure and push, then he moves back toward you....

Quote:
The boys and I were dressed and I said we were going out for the day .. He said okay I'll get ready.


Great job.. Don't show anger. Just make plans and go about your business. Keep this course of action.... NO relationship talks. In your own little world.. Not angry or vindictive, just turn into a quiet person who seems deep in thought. Let him wonder.


Quote:
I said if you have stuff to do around here the boys and I are happy to just go. He said no I'll go.


See how it works? Great job. Stay on this course.

Quote:
He came and had a good day. He wasn't affectionate towards me at all. We did talk in the car like normal but no hand holding or anything. He kissed me goodnight last night and slept in the bed. I didnt initiate anything all day. No R talk, nothing. I plan on doing the same all week.


Great job..... First step is mission accomplished. He went with you, and you had a good day and you didn't have to ask him...

Next step is to get him back to being affectionate and so forth...

Same process with that.. Stay backed off. Text back and forth with one of your GF's when your husband is around... Mysterious.... In your own little world.. Don't talk to him UNLESS he talks first... WHEN he talks, just answer politely, but then quickly go about other business... Deep in thought.. Not rude or mean or vindictive.. Just mysteriously more quiet and reserved and asking him for NOTHING...

Great job yesterday.. Keep up the good work.. We'll bring him around.... wink
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/11/15 04:48 PM

Thank you smile

Will he really come around?

If he goes back to his old job I feel like it really is a deal breaker. I can't be in a M with someone that is around OW and her family who all helped break apart our M. I don't know what his plans are with that because we haven't talked about it since our argument. It makes me feel uncomfortable that I can't bring it up or ask hey are you going back there? Have you talked to them? Are you talking to them?
I don't want to just wake up one day and him be back there without us discussing it further. So how do I handle that?
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/11/15 05:11 PM

Quote:
Will he really come around?


No doubt about it. IF you follow my suggestions.
I know how much you want to "talk" these issues out with him,
but that hasn't worked. Stop doing what isn't working...

What works on this type of guy is to back off and be silent and in your own little world. More silent than you think you are capable of. Make plans without him..... Text to others on your phone.. Happily in your own world like you are deep in thought.....

Make plans to go out without him for next Friday.
Spring it on him Thursday night.... "I'm going out with Shelly tomorrow and my parents are watching the kids."(Just matter of fact.) (this takes the chance that he says he will watch the kids and then shows up 4 hours late while you are waiting for him to come home. (like he did this past Friday)

THEN go out and have some fun.. Get home late..
When you get home, don't say anything.. If he is up and says anything, just tell him it was fun and YOU ARE TIRED and just want to go to bed... Not mean..not vindictive.. Short and sweet and mysterious.....



Quote:
If he goes back to his old job I feel like it really is a deal breaker. I can't be in a M with someone that is around OW and her family who all helped break apart our M. I don't know what his plans are with that because we haven't talked about it since our argument. It makes me feel uncomfortable that I can't bring it up or ask hey are you going back there? Have you talked to them? Are you talking to them?
I don't want to just wake up one day and him be back there without us discussing it further. So how do I handle that?


Just as I have advised you. SILENCE is golden...

Your new tact is silence.. Quiet. Not only no relationship talks, but no initiating of any talks except to tell him things like "I have plans Friday"...

The key here is to get HIM to bring up what is going on with YOU... Wait this out. It works...

THEN when HE brings up the talk is when you have your power...
It only works when HE brings it up. When he does bring up a talk, is when you tell him.. "I really don't want to talk about that right now, I am really tired".. Then continue on with the suddenly silent and mysterious woman game plan...


First things first... Work on your silent attitude.
You are his exact opposite. You like to talk things out and he is a silent person.... Do a 180 on him here. YOU be the the more silent one.. This will push him back more toward talking... Sorry it works that way sometimes, but so be it..

Stay on this path...


Yesterday is a perfect example of what to expect as you perfect your game plan here. You went about your business and made plans without him and then he responded.


IF you follow my suggestions.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/11/15 07:38 PM

I agree with all JCred is telling you. It really helps to get the VP of a man in these things.

I have to hand it to you, b/c I doubt seriously I could do what you are doing. You are quite the lady!
Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 12:30 AM

Originally Posted By: JCred
[quote]You put him under a microscope and pretended to start fresh and forgive, when you had not done the work.




Actually she did do the work.


I respectfully disagree. She admits they reconciled too soon, quite often. She admits she was not ready. And though she implies it was only on HIS end that the "work" was needed, it's both.


He SHOULD be put under a microscope after all he did. She would be silly not to. This is a man who left his wife for a young 18 year old, swore and cussed at her and told her he hated her, spent thousands and thousands of dollars on vacations with an 18 year old, and SCREAMED that they were done. He treated his wife like crap the whole time, threw it in her face, stole her car and a number of other things.

None of this^^ does anything but rehash the past, keep score and fuel her anger, which T0234 knows is an underlying theme to their marital problems in the first place.

Jcred, your story is unfamiliar to me b/c you never posted one. You comment on others situations and never reveal or disclose your own or what worked or did not work for you. I'm not sure, but it seems a bit unfair to me.

T0, I did not defend your h or his actions. Why would I?

As you noted, I shared MY experiences and learned the hard way, what was NOT working for me.

This is not about who is right; it's about saving a marriage. That mandates forgiveness in amounts much larger than I ever expected.

T0, in time, I believe you'll see that you have on occasion become someone you do Not want to be;

so become a woman only a fool would leave.
B/C down deep, isn't that who you really want to be?

The focus on the OW is misplaced, though understandable. T0, remember what you wanted to work on, before OW became the scapegoat for the issues?

And just FTR, you have said a lot about how your h wasn't earning enough money at his new (now old) job. I mean, you said a lot.

I cannot imagine hearing that and not feeling criticized.

If your h knows how to count, he knows what he's being paid. Clearly something at the job was "paying" him enough to want to stay. Based on your comments, my guess is they gave him a lot of kudos, so "words of affirmation" mean a great deal to him.

Maybe you can think about that^^ a bit more.


He SHOULD be under a microscope. He is lucky she took him back. He DID make promise after promise about what he needed to do to reconcile. This is HIS issue and HE is dropping the ball.

Then I guess she should appoint herself the judge and executioner and or just divorce him now. Oh wait, she wants to stay married...


There is a HUGE difference in welcoming with loving arms a man who works late and his wife is aware he does and a man who says he works late and doesn't call her to let her know and is acting distant and mysterious and basically again treating her like dirt....

The example of one behavioral mistake I gave T0, was hardly the reason for my 2 year separation, which is evident by my signature. And that was just a tiny example of how my anger was sabotaging my reconciliation efforts.

I know how hard this can get. I know very well.


I am telling you again TO.. The best way to handle this type of man is to do what I suggested. Of course you are angry. Who wouldn't be? You SHOULD be angry after what he put you through and then made promise after promise on how he was going to change. You have been MORE than willing to do your part. I think you know that. The key here is to do what works.


Yes do what works, but your Anger does not work. Repeating yourself, raising your voice, issuing ultimatums, threats, silent treatments, set ups for failure and mind reading do not work. I need to hear about your specific 180s and GAL b/c sometimes when we are going in many different directions, it's really good to go back to Div Busting basics.

Also - please remember the phrase, often cited here:

"Holding onto anger, to punish someone else,

is like lighting yourself on fire, to get smoke in their eyes."


When we think we "SHOULD be angry", we are really overlooks what our anger does to US. We think it's about what someone else deserves, so we let the poison into OUR bodies to make THEM sick. crazy

Like me, I think you really don't realize how much your anger hurts you, your r's with your kids, maybe your work, (God forbid) and your marriage.

But in the long run, I'm talking mainly about you.

I'm not saying to let go of your anger, just b/c it'll help your marriage OR your h.

I'm telling you that your anger will consume you, more than anyone else.

And it'll affect your ability to be fully present for your children, who deserve you at your best.

Heck, YOU deserve you at your best. So, let's get back to the basics.

You want to work on what, exactly?

Also, can you please check out RETROVAILLE? It's a marriage retreat for marriages in crisis, usually on long weekends. Several others around here have attended it.

There, team couples share their stories (which are almost always far far worse than yours and that itself, is inspiring) and help you get through your issues. For the most part, There's no "public" sharing by participants, and each spouse has some time alone and some time when they must share with or listen to the other spouse but no one else is there to hear (or judge).


It's far more effective than weekly meetings and it allows for hashing thru a problem, to the solution,

instead of touching on something and then hoping to recall it all, the next week.

I have had a GREAT therapist, but even so, when I'd have a breakthrough or insight, suddenly my hour was up and I had to pick up the kids or go back to work.

It's really hard to recall everything that leads up to the "moment" the next week. It felt really fragmented to me. So a long weekend workshop or retreat just feels more..."Efficient" I guess.

For personal, i.e. individual work, I highly recommend "Essential Experience", (aka "EE") which is now mostly conducted in Philadelphia. I've been to many workshops for work projects and for personal growth over the years. By far, this one is the best and most profound. It's the most supportive safe environment for personal work and discovery, possible.

You will feel supported and validated and that helps you remember how to give that, as well. For those of us who have trouble recognizing when we are being given that support and validation, it also helps.

Several other DBers have attended EE, including PowerOfNow, AutumnLeaves, LuckyLuke, StubbornDyke, Inshock, and others I cannot recall the screen names of.

EE would allow you to work on and release a lot of pain and anger, and help heal your wounds.

I went some years ago, for me and my own career/balancing issues, and my dad's sudden death. But when I returned, my h said he could see such a difference in me in "just the way came off the plane, looking happy and light". (His words).

My h is not the "personal growth workshop" type of guy (he was an active duty Army officer at the time). But a few months after I returned, HE went to Essential Experience on his own.

Then he called me 2 days into it (when I'd started to wonder what he was dealing with!!!) to say that it was "the best gift" he'd "ever gotten in life". Years later, we went together to help other new participants.
Man oh man, ^^ that was powerful and bonding and deeply connecting. Along with when we had our first child, that's probably the closest I've felt to my h in over 30 years.

I can't say enough about Essential Experience, AND OR Retrovaille, or what they ultimately did for our marriage, but I promise you that you'd get a lot out of either or both and [i]all your r's would improve. They have to improve, when you do.

And since it would be for improving your life, your h's choices won't be nearly the biggest factor in whether you'll be happy in life.

Make sense?

Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 01:28 AM

Quote:
I agree with all JCred is telling you. It really helps to get the VP of a man in these things.

I have to hand it to you, b/c I doubt seriously I could do what you are doing. You are quite the lady!


Thank you. Don't let this man fool you.

TO..
I wouldn't worry too much about your anger. It's totally understandable due to the circumstances and what he put you through. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and understand that. He understands it too. (and told you that)

It isn't your anger that is destroying anything right now. He knows he is being an idiot. He has dropped the ball.

It wasn't you that didn't do the work it was HIM.
Your mistake in reconciling wasn't that you weren't ready or didn't do the work.(and you DID do the WORK)
It was that you didn't make HIM do the work necessary. He still isn't doing the work he promised. That was the mistake.
I know you recognize that now.


Just follow the plan I showed you. We aren't being silent to punish so don't even let others put that in your head.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 01:37 AM

Justin,

Originally Posted By: JCred
Just follow the plan I showed you.


I must say that your comment to TO about just following "the plan I showed you" negates the important perspectives other posters bring to this thread. I mean, yours is not just the only right way to go about it.

It is totally up to TO to absorb the varied perspectives offered up here and decide the best path for herself, for H, and the M.

That particular line came across borderline arrogant. I am sure it was not your intention at all...I wanted to bring it to your awareness.

TO, sorry for the hijack. Please do carry on, sweetie.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 02:06 AM

Originally Posted By: T0324
25 you pose some difficult questions and your post is quite eye opening to me. I am by no means perfect what so ever and I still have a lot to work on.

You are pretty spot on with how I feel right now and you're right. Who would want to come home to me? It hasn't been like this. Something changed. I can't pinpoint it. It was both of us but it sure did change and when he backed off I started getting resentful. Is he cheating? Does he miss OW? Is he lying about not being paid and saving up money for an apartment?


I think a lot of this^^ could have come, in time. But yeah, that ship has sailed and he's in your face now so NOW what? I hear you.

But a "woman only a fool would leave", would not worry about OW (let alone a teenager) and would not ask her h to confirm what he's already said.

Drop the topic of OW as it relates to the past.

If another issue flares up, that's a different matter. But drop the past. Absent proof of something new, the requirement of a past A is that it not remain in the present. That goes for both sides.


ow how to deal with that entirely... I feel like I walk on eggshells and I'm sure he does feel the same way.

It's great that you can empathize with him here^^. So is there any way you two, in a calm moment, could talk about this ^^ very thing and JUST this thing?

"Hey, I feel nervous around you and I bet you do as well. Got any ideas how we can put our dukes down and not worry so much that we are about to be hurt?"


the way I have tried to look at things is to cool off before I bring anything up. I guess I just thought I would have the easy way out.

yeah, I know. I thought getting back in the same home was "IT"....uh, nope. You would be incorrect and so was I.

But cooling off first, very smart.


I honestly (and stupidly) thought ... He loves me. He made a mistake.


I believe both of those things (and I don't feel stupid!)


I have changed --- I won't ask about finances. He realizes what he has. Everything is going to be great. And it was -- until it wasn't. That's the honest truth.


Unlike more couples than you realize, you have something they don't. You HAVE had some great moments, some good times, feelings of soul mate bff and real closeness with your h.

I mean, that's how it sounds. If so, that's something to remember. Hold onto that. Memories will resurface in both of you when the dust settles and no one fears a sudden attack.


And it is not his fault my grandmother is sick. I just meant he is so out of touch- he loves my grandma and is so close to her and right now it doesn't matter to him.

^^ Hey that is some mind reading, big time. And if you notice, the mind reading is exclusively negative when it comes to him. You don't credit him with positive healthy thoughts, pretty much ever.

Gotta watch out for that. But maybe there is pain in there and some shame and discomfort and hurt. My gut says he thinks you are very disappointed in him and he fears you'll never get past it. Heck, you don't seem to know how and at times you sound as if you don't want to get past anything.

SO, it sukks to be him. You feel rejected but I promise you, he does too.

As far as GAL - he wasn't at fault for that. I wasn't blaming it on him I was just meaning my back up babysitter had fallen through and he wasn't home yet so I would be staying home.

And you are right. I am very angry. How do I let go of that?


Great question. I struggled with this for a long time. Same with forgiveness. "Sure, okay I forgive...uh, HOW? What's it look like??" B/c T0, I need to tell you that I never saw forgiveness growing up. Did you?

I literally did not know what it looked like. Nor did I know how NOT to be angry once I already was angry. I could try and see their point of view, but sometimes I simply could not. Truly I still don't understand WHY my h made the choices he made. I can only promise you even now, I do not believe there is anything in the world short of finding the cure for cancer, that could get me to move away from my family for 2 years.

I came to realize that seeing the past in the same way, or understanding and agreeing with someone else's choices in the past, is Not needed. Also not possible.

We needed to agree on our future, "From this day forward", however. So I chose to turn my gaze forward and to let go of the past, including attempts at "getting" it.


I am angry that he is going to go back to work at his ex bosss's where OW is and that his job is his number one priority (his words).


well, I think You have made his job (income) and time spent there, the priority b/c it's closely tied to his worth as a h, as a mate to you, tied to the move you two made

, **(which I think he made b/c you wanted to make the move so you could be near your family. But all he has heard are complaints about his not making the same amount of money as before. I don't think he's hearing much thanks for making the move to be near your family...indeed what I've read here, seems like you see his closeness with your family, as a character flaw or dependency in him, and maybe he senses the disappointment).

Remember what HE may be getting from that boss (words of affirmation, HIS love language, etc)


I am angry that I was his number one and he couldn't keep his hands off me to now it's the exact opposite.

= it was once so great and now it's not. Okay let's figure out how to get BACK to where you were lucky enough to have had it...right? I mean, don't hold the GOOD stuff against him too.


I am angry that whenever we do talk it is my fault. Well you did this and you did that - he can't own one thing he's done. He brings up the past yet I'm not supposed to bring up his past (which I have not brought up OW since October with the exception of the job discussion)


THIS^^ is a good specific example of a boundary you both need.

How about "H, since we both need to stay in the present, I'm working on that. Please don't bring up MY past mistakes & I'll drop yours. Now, BACK to the issue at hand...."


Really my different behavior is finances - that was his problem with me - finances and not appreciating him.

my take on your sitch, based solely on your posts here, is that you didn't appreciate him b/c you mostly discussed (here) his shortcomings.

But is the "lack of appreciation" really just about finances? I'm asking for real.

The OW isn't always about a problem within the marriage; sometimes it's just a problem in the spouse. But in your situation, you had sep before she came along and you knew there were issues. Where else might he have had unmet needs?

Bear with me, b/c I'm Not making this all about how "HE was so unhappy and You were at fault" blah blah blah. NO, not at all. I'm simply pointing you in yet another direction for your own work b/c you cannot do his. You can only work on you.




I guess the But part is difficult to understand via Internet. I do get what you're saying. Yes he said he loved me and kissed me. Its his behavior is off. He's hiding his phone and being super distant and he was doing this before our argument.


address what you can, specifically. If he reassures you, then drop it. Remember to act as if you are woman only a fool would leave and believe him, until you can't.

You know, til there is proof of a problem, don't create one. Be the better choice and that behavior, if you pull it off, tends to make you both see you in a better light. That can't hurt.


My behavior towards him hadn't changed. I would try to hold his hand, like he used to initiate and he doesn't reciprocate.

This^^ sounds as if it hurts you. Can you tell him in "bite sized pieces" the things you need from him that won't overwhelm or sound like a grievance list?

This isn't about babying him so much as giving feedback that's not easy to give or take, in small pieces. It's about being most effective.

Also, I'm not suggesting he has no work to do. He does. I'm just trying to steer you to what you can do most about you; you.

He makes me feel like


maybe it's semantics, but try to own how you react to something rather than say "he makes me feel like"... and just let him know HOW you "feel when..."

otherwise he can say you "make him feel guilty/inadequate", etc. b/c you ask him questions , etc

I'm an annoyance. I tried to tell him ... I need you to be more affectionate because I was told I need to clearly communicate my needs but that doesn't work for H.

How about "I love the way you touch/ kiss/hug me" AND OR, "well if you're going to touch me like THAT, then we need to go to a hotel"...

just a suggestion and a small twist of how you see it and say it

cool


I did it for weeks and nothing changed. I should changed my plan of attack but I didn't. I got angry and resentful and the wheels started turning of why isn't he doing this. I got more angry and pushed him away further.

Stop the cycle, or it won't stop.


I hope I am making sense. I am trying to touch on all your points but it's difficult on the phone. So if I miss something please let me know.

I basically just want to know what to do.


I Know you do. And I wish I had a "manual" for you. I can tell you that I made mistakes along the way. I don't even count my first year of DBing as that, b/c I just fumed SO MUCH for so long. I had 2 sisters who were divorced and both had been left by their h's.

My older sister was the opposite of my younger sister. The older one, "G", was a giver in their m, raised the 3 kids mostly herself and worked full time the whole time they were married. She put her h thru law school. He had at least 2 OWs and left her to be single after 22 years of marriage and the 3 kids and she got no alimony b/c hey, she earned money!

She handled it with such grace. I cannot recall her complaining much although she was deeply wounded and heartbroken. Just like my younger sister.

She eventually remarried and I can honestly say she's happier now than she ever could have been, with her first h. But in contrast, my younger sister revolved around her h, she was needy and clingy and insatiable.

When he left, she got stuck in her victimhood and called me and my other sisters every single day, for 2 years, feeling sad and or angry. Though 20 years have passed since then, Her divorce was the defining moment of her life.

So when I began to obsess about WHY my h was leaving his family for a JOB. (Yeah I know what you mean about not being the priority).
Asking "How can he do this???" "WHY is he feeling/doing/this? What is he thinking/feeling/planning/doing?? ---

my older sister stopped me and told me who I sounded like (the younger one),

that was a splash of cold water in my face. So, whatever it takes to snap yourself out of things, like turning it over to God if you are a believer, DO.

I used to take showers for privacy (didn't want my kids to think I was nuts)

So that I could think/say and hear myself say "God, I turn my pain/anger over to You" or "I turn my marriage over to You" b/c it was too much for me to carry.

And it calmed me. So whatever you can do to let go of your anger, do it.

Marianne Williamson writes a lot about forgiveness and anger in her many books. I found her books helpful on that topic, though some find her too "new agey".
See what you think. "Return to Love" and "Handling Fear/Anger" (or something like that) are two I found really good for this.



We have spent the whole day together. I struggle with distancing myself and wanting to do nice things for him but it would be pursuing.

I'd hire a DB coach to best assess whether he needs reassurances to feel safe with you OR

to keep the distance thing going. I'm usually a fan of distance but can't say here b/c I don't know what his perceptions are. it SEEMS as if he is on the fence b/c HE says You won't let go of the past.

So my concern is that your distance not come off as coldness or anger or resentment. And I am hard pressed to support someone withholding warmth or doing nice things.

Maybe if you can balance it with an uber PMA and friendly non pursuit, like 'hey I'm warm and fuzzy over here but not getting in your space", etc...???

Not sure...again, hiring a DB coach cannot hurt.

AND Please consider Retrovaille or that other workshop I suggested (Essential Experience) b/c I think you are ripe for change.


I can forgive. I thought I had forgiven. I actually have forgiven what happened but I am struggling with right now.

I believe forgiveness is a process. It consists of steps. You first decide TO forgive and then most of us ask, "how??" And to me that is when it gets really hard. I talked to my T and did exercises and talked to my priest as well. Find some support for that b/c it's a life skill and yet we learn so little about it growing up.


I still feel like he should be trying...--

Well, show him how. At least then you'll know you learned.


Where on earth do I go from here

And as far as Mc. I don't know if I'm going to bring it up. I really don't think he will go. But I did not intend on living in the past. Our last few sessions we didn't talk about the A as much as we talked about how did we get that point so we can avoid it in the future.

some of it will sound a lot like rehashing the past. Most mc's focus on it and that's why it often sets couples back.

How many discussions do you NEED to have (that involve him), to know what to avoid?


Also, he was supposed to be planning weekly date nights , that went away. Everything stopped in November. I really don't know why.


What if, for now,

you really let go of the "he was supposed/should be" list, and ask if he minds it if YOU plan SOME?

Plan ONE, and then promise yourself you will ENJOY it and NOT Measure anything anytime.

or not. But there are many other resources out there for you to explore. I think you'll be glad you did.

Good luck!

Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 03:17 AM

Okay I want to make sure I cover everything.

Gan- I am going to C this Wednesday I haven't told H about it and I'm still mulling it over if I even will

Sandi - you know I love you smile

Wonka- no hijack... I appreciate everyone's involvement regardless of what it's for!

JCred - you know I always appreciate your input. Especially from a males perspective. I am going to continue on the path we have discussed but I will be tweaking some and would always appreciate your input so don't forget about me now! For my tweaking read my response to 25.

And 25 - I am going to make a separate post to you but I do definitely want to clarify something for everyone. And this is not to come off rude in anyway what so ever BUT (lol) with that being said I have NOT and do NOT bring up that H makes less money. Just because I post something here does not mean it is necessarily brought up. I give bits of information to help people understand both of our situations.

I have never brought up what he doesn't make or does make. I do not get into that because that was a big problem he had with me before was finances. He felt I was never going to be happy or that he would never make enough and that I always bitched about money. Hardly the fact --- now that we do not have a joint account he sees what I went through. Oh I don't have the money for this or I don't have the money for that. Before he knew I would cover everything and make sure enough money was in the account and never paid attention to what he was spending... So now it's a reality check. And an even bigger reality check because he blew threw about 20 grand being away. I did not acquire any debt as I have said over and over. For those well versed on my situation I worked 2 jobs (no I'm not asking for a medal) but while he was out of town with OW. I was doing that taking care of our boys and running this household alone.

YES we have moved passed that. I do not bring any of that up. But I do say all of that to kind of touch some sort of reality. He did come back in and my family all welcomed him with open arms. Nobody has mentioned anything of the sort of anything while he was gone. I have no brought up OW since the end of sept or beginning of October. And even before that we really didn't discuss it. We've discussed all of it an amount that I can count on less than 2 hands if not 1.

I'm not patting myself on the back nor am I clearing myself of any faults but I am ready and willing to take fault and move on and ready to do the work and make a DAILY effort to show him he is the man that I love. I need affection. I need adult time. I need to be talked to like I matter. Not just a Ya, an okay, what, I don't care, uh huh response every time. I am Feeling so unappreciated and undervalued. I feel like after everything that has happened he should be fighting for me still. Or not even fighting for me but just being a husband That loves his wife

I do not say these things in an angry way. It is the internet so it's difficult to ascertain. I do love him but I am sad. I am sad that he busted his ass in the beginning to now this. Did we both contribute to this? ABSOLUTELY. Are we both busting our butt to fix it? Nope.

I will respond more I just wanted to clarify as much as I could regarding the finance stuff
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 03:49 AM

Quote:
It really helps to get the VP of a man in these things.



Quote:
"Hey, I feel nervous around you and I bet you do as well. Got any ideas how we can put our dukes down and not worry so much that we are about to be hurt?"


My viewpoint of this as man when I need space and treated her like crap and then begged to come back...

Oh no, her we go.. Another relationship talk. Who has their dukes up? I just want to come home and unwind and the minute I have some peace.. Here we go...



Quote:
But maybe there is pain in there and some shame and discomfort and hurt. My gut says he thinks you are very disappointed in him and he fears you'll never get past it. Heck, you don't seem to know how and at times you sound as if you don't want to get past anything.



My take as a man if I had done what he did... I would hope that I did feel shame. I would hope that I did show remorse and was embarrassed. I would know that I DID disappoint my wife. I would hope I would say that she did NOTHING to cause this and it was NOT in any way her fault. From my reading of TO's threads it is the exact opposite of not wanting to get past anything. I don't read one word of that in her posts. I believe she wants nothing more than to get past this whole thing. As a man I would hope I would have followed through on my numerous promises to her and not blame her in any way shape of form. I would want to have empathy over and over for the destruction that I caused. I would hope I would understand that she would NEVER want me to work for that boss again. How could I have done that to her? I am lucky to have her back. She works hard. Two jobs while I was out spending thousands of dollars. I stole money from her. I stole her vehicle and then wouldn't give it back. I threatened to call the cops on her.. I wonder how she can ever forgive me for the idiot I was. What a woman... And here I am again thinking she nags and wants my everything.. How dare her. She should just forgive and forget. After all, she is a nag and is only worried about money.. How dare she treat me like that... She should just be happy to see me when I come home 3 hours late with not even texting or letting her know. How dare she be angry... She sure has an anger problem...And also needs to learn about forgiveness. I hope she comes around soon because all this is causing me is stress.


Quote:
SO, it sukks to be him. You feel rejected but I promise you, he does too.


As a man.. Yes.. it sukks to be me.. I do feel rejected. How dare she make this about her again... I just want to come home and do nothing because I have a lot of stress. Yes, I feel rejected. She should shape up and show me more love and forgive me and just let me do what I want. I have nothing. I can't even understand after I had an affair with my ex boss's 18 year old daughter why in the world that would bother her. Just get over it for God's sake. He treated me well and at least appreciated me.. (and his daughter did too.)(boy do I miss that.. I didn't have anybody needing me to be responsible.. The good ole days... I sure miss them...

Quote:
Drop the topic of OW as it relates to the past.


as a man...Yea.. drop that topic. I should already be forgiven for that. How dare you keep throwing it in my face.
You should be looking at my good points.. (what are they again?) I wish you would just treat me nice and leave me alone to my peace and quiet. I am tired after work. I am stressed. I feel rejected by you.... Boy, she sure is an angry person and I certainly don't know why....

Quote:
well, I think You have made his job (income) and time spent there, the priority b/c it's closely tied to his worth as a h, as a mate to you, tied to the move you two made

, **(which I think he made b/c you wanted to make the move so you could be near your family. But all he has heard are complaints about his not making the same amount of money as before. I don't think he's hearing much thanks for making the move to be near your family...indeed what I've read here, seems like you see his closeness with your family, as a character flaw or dependency in him, and maybe he senses the disappointment).

Remember what HE may be getting from that boss (words of affirmation, HIS love language, etc)


As a man... See? That's the same thing I have been telling you. You don't appreciate me. I mean just because I am now acting distant and texting all the time on my phone and didn't follow through on my promises to help you feel a little more secure.. So see, I have been telling you this for a long time.. You're disappointed in me and I certainly don't know why. My boss knows my love language.(and so does his daughter).. My boss was meeting my needs and you don't understand why I don't want to go back there? You sure have a lot of work to do. You need to learn about forgiveness and such. I have been telling you these same things for years.. You need to start listening to me more when others are telling you the same thing.

Quote:
How about "H, since we both need to stay in the present, I'm working on that. Please don't bring up MY past mistakes & I'll drop yours. Now, BACK to the issue at hand...."


As a man who acted like her husband....
FINE by me..I have been saying that all along... Ok. Let's drop another relationship talk and go watch some football. I hate these relationship talks.. Why are you always wanting to talk about "the relationship".. Back to the "issues" at hand???? Here we go again.. Another issue. Let's go to counseling.. Let's talk more. Let's not get angry.. God I just want to watch some football and have some peace.. What next will she bring up. Always a talk about us in some way shape of form. Will it ever stop? God [b]I'm back home and she should be happy to have a man like me. I don't have any idea why she could be angry or want more from me..

[/b]
Quote:
my take on your sitch, based solely on your posts here, is that you didn't appreciate him b/c you mostly discussed (here) his shortcomings.


As a man who treated her like he did and hasn't followed through on my promises... YES to this... You never appreciated me. All you talk about is my shortcomings. I have been telling you this for years... How dare you want me to keep showing you that I am so very sorry for what I did. How dare you be angry at ME... (what were my strengths again?) Please make me feel good about myself and forget your needs. This is about me.. Me, me, me.. You have an anger problem and I certainly don't know why. I know I have nothing to do with it. It is YOUR issue. You just don't understand me and the stress I have in my life. I just want to be left alone. I told you I would change so why can't you just drop it when I give you so little? Why? What is wrong with you woman?

Quote:
This^^ sounds as if it hurts you. Can you tell him in "bite sized pieces" the things you need from him that won't overwhelm or sound like a grievance list?

This isn't about babying him so much as giving feedback that's not easy to give or take, in small pieces. It's about being most effective.

Also, I'm not suggesting he has no work to do. He does. I'm just trying to steer you to what you can do most about you; you.


As a man who has treated her like he has..

YES, YES... Quit overwhelming me.. I have SO much stress.. I mean I work and that should be enough for you. Let me alone and you work on you... THANK GOD... I sure hope she turns around here.... NO, not even bit size pieces.. Let's have NO more relationship talks. It always turns into a relationship talk.. No bit size pieces.. I don't want to talk about the relationship at ALL, let alone a bit size piece... You just work on you and quit criticizing me.. Start appreciating me..
Forget that I promised to be the best man that I could be and would do anything in my power to make things right.. You just need to find a way to be happy with me giving little and me getting what I want when I want. Then things will be peaceful around here... I just want to be left alone. I have a lot of stress and am tired when I get home. And PLEASE don't mention that I never mentioned being tired or stressed when I was running around the country with an 18 year old and my boss for 5 months and spending all our money (and a lot of yours too, but hey who's counting).. Let's just forget that. I should be able to give you little, and get a lot and not have to keep making an effort. My boss sure appreciated me.. I want to go back there to work. All you care about is money.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 04:30 AM

And also for clarity -

We moved across the state in 2011 with a newborn and toddler for his job. He got a great opportunity so I left all family and moved 4 hours away. He HATED it there. He was MISERABLE. That's why we moved back to our home here in 2012.

All of our moves have been for him and his jobs. The theme with him is something that really bothers me. He is so hot and cold. In the beginning everything is great then it isn't. For example - he bought me a beautiful SUV for Christmas in 2012. I love it and was so surprised... It was when things were really great between us (not because of money) but it was a great time - we had moved back home and he was happy = us happy. Now the truck is a POS (his words) waste of money etc so we are selling it. I know that's a stupid example but it's the same with everything.

This job he's at now was great his old job sucked. Now it's the opposite. Even if I would be okay with him going back to thay job he would hate it in time also.

Oh and OW was before we separated. Phone bills show they started texting all day and night starting in December of 2013. He only said that they did talk inappropriately (her saying he deserved better than me, our boys deserved better, her parents went through divorce and she was happier having them D than M) he did say he probably would have never left if he wasn't talking to her and her family wasn't so supportive of him (he lived there for 4-5months with OW at her parents)

Hope this helps. 25 I still have more to say.

Justin - I know it wasn't meant to but your post made me giggle smile
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 05:17 AM

Quote:
Justin - I know it wasn't meant to but your post made me giggle smile


wink

Smart woman........ Don't get sidetracked here........

You're doing just fine. HE IS dropping the ball here and not
you.

Again.. As a man... I think he NEEDS what I suggested to you more than you know. If I did what he did to a woman I said I loved I would MOST CERTAINLY understand her being not only a little angry, but even a lot angry... I probably would walk all over her if she wasn't.......

My worry would be when she STOPPED being angry and suddenly wasn't saying much of anything. Suddenly going out on her own and not asking ANYTHING from me.....

It certainly wouldn't turn me around if you kept trying harder to meet my needs whether it be in one big chunk or bit size pieces. Especially if I was acting like he has been acting. I know what 25 says worked for her, but you need to understand that her husband always kept loving her and said he loved her. He didn't have an affair. He wanted her to be with him, she just didn't want to go to Alaska with him.

Just because she had an anger issue doesn't mean you have one just because you are angry. We all get angry. That doesn't mean we have an anger issue. Sometimes people on here can only see through the eyes of what they went through and think it must applie to others because it was once an issue with them. You will see this again and again on here. You will get advice from what they had an issue with. Be careful with that.
Know who you are. Remember, these people are not trained professionals and could very well be giving you a diagnosis that is completely wrong. I think that is the case here. Just my opinion.

I don't see an anger problem with you. You have admitted you are angry. As a man, I feel it is totally reasonable and a non issue.

The issue is that showing your anger to him isn't working.
That's all it is. Nothing more. Doesn't mean it is an issue. Just means that showing your anger isn't working. Just accept it for that...

Do what works.. Silence will work here.. In your own world..
Don't show anger (even if angry) You can't show it because he needs to feel you distancing emotionally. When he senses you pulling away, he will slowly start to get curious. This then makes a man look within himself........

You're fine.... Great woman and a good catch. I think he secretly knows that. I believe we can pull him back. I believe you are just DYING to show him some appreciation. You just need to be patient and know how and when to time your appreciation to a man. I wouldn't recommend it right now. I told you what I highly recommend.. As a man.. I know these things....If I were you, I would listen to what a man thinks and knows about men in these situations....

Of course, you are free to choose what you do. I don't want to be seen as arrogant. My concern is that sometimes on these threads there is too much advice from too many people and all it does is muddy the water for the person seeking it. That's why I am telling you that you can't take what I am telling you and mix it with something else.

Glad I could make you laugh.. I thought you might like it.. laugh
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 05:56 AM

By the way...

Wouldn't be a bad idea to do a little clothes shopping for a new outfit for that big night out on Friday.. I wouldn't mention it to him though. Make sure you are working on staying fit and suddenly concerned about your appearance more than normal when you go out...

Just sayin....... as a man........
Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 08:00 AM

[quote=T0324]And also for clarity -

We moved across the state in 2011 with a newborn and toddler for his job. He got a great opportunity so I left all family and moved 4 hours away. He HATED it there. He was MISERABLE. That's why we moved back to our home here in 2012.

All of our moves have been for him and his jobs.


Sorry T0, but I'm still a tad confused. I see this^^ and I accept it (and boy, do I relate). But then below you mention moves to be near family and so, my apologies for not keeping it straight.

Guess when it comes to money you say you only talk bout it here but you also say that's "Because h said it was all I talked about", so is it fair to say it used to be a problem but is now a resolved issue b/c you have changed that behavior?

I'm not trying to belabor it, but it's His perception that matters in this example.



The theme with him is something that really bothers me. He is so hot and cold
. In the beginning everything is great then it isn't. For example - he bought me a beautiful SUV for Christmas in 2012. I love it and was so surprised... It was when things were really great between us (not because of money) but it was a great time - we had moved back home and he was happy = us happy. Now the truck is a POS (his words) waste of money etc so we are selling it. I know that's a stupid example but it's the same with everything.

Sounds Not so much "hot and cold" as "novelty wore off" kind of thing. Yes? And this is Not a new behavior or trait of his, correct? How'd you use to deal with it?


This job he's at now was great his old job sucked. Now it's the opposite. Even if I would be okay with him going back to thay job he would hate it in time also.

Oh and OW was before we separated. Phone bills show they started texting all day and night starting in December of 2013. He only said that they did talk inappropriately (her saying he deserved better than me, our boys deserved better, her parents went through divorce and she was happier having them D than M) he did say he probably would have never left if he wasn't talking to her and her family wasn't so supportive of him (he lived there for 4-5months with OW at her parents)

Hope this helps. 25 I still have more to say.

So, just so I'm clear on this^^^ (all of which sukks, btw), you knew it all before he moved back in, correct?

OR did you learn it later on? Don't worry about what I'm implying, I'm just trying to figure out what is a "new" thing for you to cope with, versus you struggling with the past.

The bottoms line is that you have 2 threshold questions to address.

1) Can we do this 'reconciliation thing at all?

AND

2) how can I reduce/eliminate the risk of that same behavior happening again?

Seems most of the first question has been answered with a "let's try" and now you are wracking your brain about the second question's answer.

Is that a fair assessment?

Well, I'm going to now post 2 pieces by other DBers and

I hope you'll find some answers or insights in their words...or at least some food for thought.


Keep on keeping on, T0.

First is from Denver's thread, from MHL (and you can exchange his "W" for your "H", "he/she", and so forth
.


Denver,
--
Okay, down to business..........

Your operating from a place of fear......it is normal. I know because of what you posted right up there. You basically said it in bold......

you were afraid that your W would make some sort of interpretation…..

Another way to look at the statement up there is to try to take out the "but" and make it sound the same as you originally intended........

The "BUTS" will get you everytime........

It really highlights when YOU are trying to justify something that you know is wrong or when you are saying something but don't really believe what it is you are saying…….
Think about it.........

Take a scenario where you are trying to apologize to someone for something you did or said to them. Often we really blame them for what we did instead of really "Owning our words/actions"

Therefore, we say......

"I'm sorry......BUT you made me do it."

translate....

"I'm sorry......BUT not really." smile

Soooooo......

Until you deal with that fear of how your W may or may not interpret something you do or say…….

you really are not in a position to interact with her........you will eff up the sitch.

Clearly the debate going on in your thread is passionate and thought provoking.....

I am going to tell you that IMO both sides are correct.....

(how was that for being diplomatic laugh )

25 is trying to get you to deal with the internal demons that plague you and me and anyone else that is here and has been betrayed........that anger beast is a real b!tch.

You never really get rid of it.....and you shouldn't it is part of who you are........it is part of who I am.

You take my cheerio's away from me, I am going to get mad/angry.

It is how we deal with it and ultimately react to it that determines how others view us and interact with us.

25 is imploring you to see past your pain and focus on how your W is feeling. How she could get to a place where she could leave the marriage and cheat.

Now to be clear......There is nothing you did that caused her to cheat.......that was her decision and she will have to own that, and more importantly YOU HAVE TO LET YOUR W deal with it on her own..........and she will in TIME. (It will be very hard on her.)

This is what 25 is saying.....that you actually have to have some compassion for her in order for your heart to be in the right place to do what you need to do.

Now, you very much need to stop engaging as some of us are imploring you to do.......

However

you need to do it from a loving and compassionate place.

Hard to do.

I will continue to push you to do the right thing until your heart is in the right place to do something different.

As long as you are operating from a place of fear, and make no mistake......YOU ARE............you have not adequately dealt with the underlying issues that re-inforce that fear.

One of those issues is ANGER.

When SBH, Starsky, Faith and anyone else that advocates an action that might come off as punitive or retaliatory, it is mistaken as being anger that has not been dealt with adequately.

Here is the problem.........YOU definitely NEED to take the actions that are being suggested......

however if you have not dealt with your pain and the very valid emotions that come with your pain then your actions will wreak of ANGER.

This is really where I come down in the middle.......

You need to pull back because you are really not ready to deal with her "in-decision" yet. Now there is the added benefit that by pulling back you might actually attract your W back.....ie the dance of the pursuer and distancer.

I think that this is where we all start to disagree......it is not that we neccessarily disagree with the course of action it is that we disagree with the motivation behind the action.

Some here are trying to motivate you from a place of pride and self respect........nothing wrong with self respect and pride IF you have done the hard internal work to deal with YOUR PAIN and ANGER and it has really become part of who you are.........part of your "skin" so to speak. (nickel to Mach).

Denver, I can tell you that while you might have identified some things that you need to work on or are working on.......your words here tell some of us (ON BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE) that you still have some strides to make.

BTW.....these strides are not meassured by how much your W is being nice to you or is doing things with you or anything to do with your wife.

GET IT??????

I can tell you that even after you have done the work you never are ever really done.......I can tell you that some of the most thoughtful, introspective and loving MEN here on these boards still struggle to keep their motivations pure and true.

Their actions remain the same, hopefully those actions are motivated by Love.......however Anger can creep back in sometimes and it has to be dealt with again, but we learn as we go........

I will repeat the drum beat........

Stop engaging your W, close FB, drop the timelines, focus on Denver.........

Your W will be in the same place YOU left her..........

She definitely has some of her own shat to deal with.

Cheers

MHL




Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 08:05 AM

T02

this other post is from Sandi2, and is worth pondering for all of us.

I found it profoundly moving. I hope you get something out of it and if not, at least it's thought provoking and geez, we need to post it somewhere. (So Thanks for indulging me.)


FROM SANDI2, posted just yesterday (1/11/2015) HP's thread...


I don't mean to depress anyone and I really don't where to post this, so I pray it is acceptable to HP that I do it here. I am having a very difficult time today, so maybe It will help if I try to write. I am grieving very deeply over the passing of a loved one.

The years of one's life has been reduced to a few boxes to be stored away. Will anyone ever look at it again? IDK, I just know I can't throw it away. Not yet, maybe never. The memories........are so sweet and yet painful as I know all my chances to share with that one person are gone forever.

I should have done more, should have been better. Why do we live as though we have forever? Time was so short, so precious, and so much of it was wasted.
I have learned anger has many faces. Rage, smoldering, resentment, bitterness, jealousy, judgement, vindictiveness, disappointment, and so much more.

We choose to not forgive b/c we don't want to let go of the anger. Why would we ever want to cling to something that makes us so ugly within?

Forgiveness has nothing to do with the other person and everything to do with us. It has nothing to do with them deserving or earning our pitiful forgiveness to them. Forgiveness is based on who and what we are as a person, not them.

As I search my heart today, I believe I have forgiven every person who ever did me wrong.

Yet, I struggle to forgive myself for the pain I have caused my loved one who is gone. The disappointment and absolute horror of my actions will forever be my shame to bear. The disgrace I brought on the memory of those who raised me, and to those who loved me as best they could. How do I ever make it right? I can't.

Today my pain is so great. I want to gather all my cherished family and hold them so tight. I want to tell the world to stop this craziness and just love each other while they have the time. But I know this is part of the grieving I must do. It is a process.......much like forgiveness.

Sometimes we can't just make the decision and it's done. We have to work on it a little more each day. Maybe someday I will even be able to forgive myself. Strange, b/c I thought I had, until this happened. Regret.........for anyone who reads this, please don't live in regret. Life is so short.


Tomorrow I will move forward a little more. That is all we can do. Don't stop growing and loving, and giving of ourselves. Make each day count, a sweet memory without regret.
_____
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 11:19 AM

I'm just walking into work so I will respond to everything at some point today

H is still sleeping with his phone in his pocket. It has been over a week since we have ML.

I just feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. I am just waiting for when he leaves and doesn't come back.

Why is he so secretive about his stupid phone. I don't want to be done but I feel like I need to be. What am I holding on for? Someone that treats me like this after all these promises. I think he would be happy if I ended it so he wouldn't have to feel guilty
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 06:55 PM

So I was thinking of sending H a text along the lines of I'm going to counseling Wednesday at 7. Just so he knows and can leave it up to him if he wants to go?
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 07:50 PM

How are you going to word the text?
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 07:51 PM

I don't know! &#128513;

I scheduled an appt with C on wednesday
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 07:55 PM

Do you want to ask him to go or do you want him to offer on his own?
Posted By: Sotto

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 08:12 PM

Is it going to be productive for him to go to MC with you when some kind of inappropriate contact is going on?
Posted By: claire7

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 08:21 PM

It will always be up to him to decide to go. What if you added... "I hope you will join me?"

T0, I know your H is in a tough spot...I often wonder myself what I would do if my H actually came back, but then didn't change.

To me it feels like going back to DB101. I am really with 25 on this one. You can only control you. I know you said that you are not criticizing him about $$, but you have offered to pay for things. ..right? Maybe he interprets that as criticism.

Or maybe he is just kind of emotionally immature or something, and not quite able to be a full healthy partner.

Do you want to try to save the M? You can't change him, but you can change you. What can you change? Instead of feeling like he owes you something b/c he left, can you show him why he's a fool to leave?

I remember when I first started reading your threads, you sounded so angry. I'm hearing that again.

You have to decide on the path that will feel right to you... but it does sound like your H is still in crisis. And if you still want to DB you might have to still lead the way.
Hang in there.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 08:53 PM


Smart woman........ Don't get sidetracked here........

You're doing just fine. HE IS dropping the ball here and not
you.

Again.. As a man...

I'm not sure you are speaking so much as a man here, as an LBS
There are lots of men here. They don't post identically to you.
.

--
-- I know what 25 says worked for her, but you need to understand that her husband always kept loving her and said he loved her. He didn't have an affair. He wanted her to be with him, she just didn't want to go to Alaska with him.


No, that's^^ not my story. He dated OWs (and I dated OMs). He ran off to Alaska at least 3 times without telling me. He lived in Palo Alto for a year before he moved to Alaska...

There's a lot more to it.

Please don't summarize my story in some over simplified Reader's Digest version, when it's much harder & vastly more complicated than you can possibly know (hence my having over 10, 000 posts here).

Plus, it really bothers me that you refuse to tell anyone your own. You don't reply to the many questions I & other posters have asked you as well.

Have you read the DB books? I cannot recall a single time you mention a DB concept. Just you telling others what to do, you know, since you're "a man".

What I get from you is the wish to be "right", more than anything else.

That's not to say T0 shouldn't drop the rope or do LRT, or follow some other DB advice

but your advice just comes off as, well you know, YOURS...

Just because she had an anger issue doesn't mean you have one just because you are angry. We all get angry. That doesn't mean we have an anger issue. Sometimes people on here can only see through the eyes of what they went through

and think it must applie to others because it was once an issue with them.


You will see this again and again on here. You will get advice from what they had an issue with. Be careful with that.
Know who you are. Remember, these people are not trained professionals and could very well be giving you a diagnosis that is completely wrong. I think that is the case here. Just my opinion.



Above^^, is known as the pot calling the kettle black.

Below, is you giving her the same advice I & others gave her, but pretending it's different and unique to you.

Why do I sense a growing "competition" in you, as if there is a contest? I also get that you want to put others.

What's that all about?

I'm not interested in being declared the victor.

I am using the values and beliefs promoted here by MWD, with her divorce busting tools, to help someone navigate their way through a morass of conflicting emotions and values and hoping to maybe to help their m.




-
The issue is that showing your anger to him isn't working.
That's all it is. Nothing more. Doesn't mean it is an issue. Just means that showing your anger isn't working. Just accept it for that...

-


Further down here, I read the comments below.


So you "Don't want to seem arrogant" but then you speak for all men and

tell her to pretty much ignore other advice, b/c hey, THEY aren't professionals...

but You are, right?

JCred, why won't you share your story with us?

Why not give DB some credit if it deserves it, I mean if it worked for you? I share mine b/c yes, SOME of it did work for me and some did not.

I disclosed which was which. You refuse to do the same.

And if not, if DBing failed you, why not go where other ways or approaches are tried?


Of course T0 should see different opinions and find what is most authentic for her.

But look at how YOU instruct her later...



I told you what I highly recommend.. As a man.. I know these things....If I were you, I would listen to what a man thinks and knows about men in these situations....

Of course, you are free to choose what you do. I don't want to be seen as arrogant. My concern is that sometimes on these threads there is too much advice from too many people and all it does is muddy the water for the person seeking it.

That's why I am telling you that you can't take what I am telling you and mix it with something else.

[/quote]

Yeah T0, only take his advice. WE aren't professionals.

WE might muddy the waters by telling you our own experiences and how we relate to yours...OR by referring to the books and philosophy underlying the whole approach here.

T0, I've said it before and I'll say it again. DB coaching is worth the money. (Divorce surely costs more, and that's just counting the financial piece).

It can't hurt and you'd then be getting the professional advice you need. Heck, we all needed it at some point.

Of the many things I did to work on myself and help restore my marriage, the single thing I know I could not do without, was my DB coach. She was a Godsend and I mean that, literally.

Good Luck T0, seriously.

((( )))
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 09:18 PM

Well I dont know if something inappropriate is going on but I feel at this point would MC really hurt?

I mean I don't know that I would necessarily ask him to go maybe just put it out there without expectations as a temp check?

Any thoughts?
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 10:26 PM

25,

Where were you all the previous months and months when TO was posting?

I wish you would take off your lawyer hat once in a while..
I've been posting to TO for quite some time, so the competition issue you mention is your issue and not mine.
You are the one who suddenly is posting on this thread, not me.

Since you aren't a man and I am, then I would and do know more about what men think and how they respond to women like TO than you do. Her anger is a non issue. It does seem to be an issue you had. I am glad you worked on it.

I also have many male friends and have observed and talked deeply and privately about men things for quite some time. So I do know what I am talking about. That seems to ruffle your feathers. Well, I am here to tell you that I am not here to please you and I am not here to be another defendant in another court case. Please take the
lawyer hat off.

I told TO how to get her husband to respond because I do know what men like her husband think and I know how they act and I know what they respond to.

And no, my advice is not the same as your advice. You don't get to set the reality here.

You came on this thread way late, so I do question where YOU have been for so long.

For all your talk about your growth and such, your post to me today certainly came across as rude and not necessary. Sounds like I hit a nerve because you don't like to hear those things. There are plenty of men on this site now and have been on here over the years that found out the hard way what happens when a woman does what I have suggested to TO...

I guess you want to take over here from what your posts read to me. Don't know where you were all those months before, but now you come barging in and take over. I guess you know more about what I think as a man than I do. I guess you know more about what a man like TO's husband will respond to than a man who know what men like him think. That's what it sounds like..

I would think women would be interested in how to get these types of men to respond....
Posted By: claire7

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 10:34 PM

Wow. Just wow.
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 10:38 PM

Quote:
Well I dont know if something inappropriate is going on but I feel at this point would MC really hurt?

I mean I don't know that I would necessarily ask him to go maybe just put it out there without expectations as a temp check?

Any thoughts?


Go ahead and tell him you are going and it's ok to ask him if he would like to come. "I scheduled a counseling appointment and I would like us to go together. It is for Wednesday at 7:00 pm. What do you think?"

That would be fine.... Go ahead and take a temperature check.
Be ready to hear no or some excuse so that you don't set yourself up too much for rejection.

And don't forget how stressed he is and all he is going through and how much your anger is destroying you.. wink
Posted By: Maybell

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 10:44 PM

JCred,

Why do you think T's husband is a "type"?

25 has been helping all over the place. I read ALL her posts and she was here from time to time. So were Train, Wonka, occasionally Starsky, and several of the other vets.

Your posts typically showed up late because you were on moderation for so long. And I know on my thread you've been more inflammatory than helpful.

I agree with 25 that you are becoming very inflammatory here. Also I think it is unkind and misleading to tell T "how" to get her H back without helping her process how to RELATE to him and how to consider whether she even wants him back.

And I personally Do NOT take the advice of someone who uses an angry pun for his screen name, won't share his story, doesn't even use the signature block for basic information and never answers questions. As far as any of us know you could be a spotty 15 yo. But that's just me.

Please don't make T's thread a battlefield. She is a real hurting person looking for help. She deserves a little humility from the people who show up here offering support.

T, I would love to have something more directly helpful to add, but I'm a little jaded because of what I learned about my sitch on Friday night. But I want you to know that I have always been behind you and I feel like you've shown strength beyond your years most of the time. If you sometimes get a little belligerent about it... well, we all have flaws. We try to control the worst of them. I don't know how you're coming off to your husband and I don't even know if his issues have anything to do with you at all.

I think a few months ago I posted the "save myself/save my marriage" banner quote to you from Labug's thread, and I think it applies here. Nobody can tell what he's going to up and do. But whatever choice he makes, your course of action should be to be your most amazing self.

Just out of curiosity... has that potential OM made any kind of appearance since your H has been back around? is it even remotely possible that could have to do with the way things have changed?
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 11:22 PM

Quote:
Why do you think T's husband is a "type"?


I have studied her thread and what she says about the way he has acted. It isn't that difficult for a man to get caught up in a younger woman who gives him some attention. He doesn't really like his job, has to go home to his kids and boring life and he is immature. He needs some excitement and something to look forward to..

Boom.. He meets a good looking young woman. They start flirting.. His hormones kick in.. He starts secretly thinking about her mostly to escape from the everyday boredom because he hasn't learned how to channel it into another avenue...

He then starts justifying his actions in his mind...

TO doesn't understand me.. She doesn't appreciate all I do..
Meanwhile the younger other woman is trying to win this good looking "older man" over.. He now thinks he is hot stuff...

Suddenly TO is at fault for his boredom and lack of discipline and being immature..

He starts to pull away from TO and suddenly she is also chasing him.. TWO women fighting over me? WOW. I AM all of that and then some.. His mind is now on the hot young woman...

The secrecy of it all stirs their emotions..

TO, now takes the blame.. I nagged too much, I didn't appreciate him.. I shouldn't be angry because it was my fault. She tries everything to get him back.. Two women fighting over him.. A man's dream... He knows he can get TO back at any time and it isn't even a worry. She's a nag anyway...

It wasn't TO to begin with... He would have caved to the affair if she had been perfect. It was the thrill of a hot young good looking woman and his being an immature fool. He even admitted it when he was in panic after the 18 year old dumped him.. I told TO that she was going to find out that he had nothing.. No apartment, no car(his wife's stolen car)spending money he didn't have to go off on vacations to impress her.. He was going to end up with nothing but a big old child support payment and broke once TO woke up....

Then when he didn't have anybody in his life he panicked because he doesn't know how to live alone....

TO had a great opportunity to make him do the necessary work, but let him back to quickly. She had leverage and let a lot of it slip away.. He never did the work...

Now we are back to blaming TO... It wasn't her to begin with..
She will see that at some point. Her anger is actually a good thing here. Not all anger is bad. Anger is good sometimes, and in this case I believe it is reasonable...

The key is what does she do now to get this back on track....
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 11:53 PM

His response was he would have to ask his boss. I told him the appt was at 7 so he probably would have to leave around 6 to be there in time.

Guess that is going to be his excuse. That his boss says he can't go.
Posted By: Maybell

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/12/15 11:56 PM

And once again you completely deflect from yourself.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 12:04 AM

He just sent me a text that he's going back to his ex boss now
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 12:05 AM

I'm going to respond that there is no need to discuss anything further. That is a deal breaker for me
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 12:15 AM

Quote:
I'm going to respond that there is no need to discuss anything further. That is a deal breaker for me


I agree. I'm sorry. Your instincts have been right on.
Something has been going on.....

This is not your fault.
Get your ducks in a row...

I feel for you and with you....
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 12:20 AM

Quote:
25 has been helping all over the place. I read ALL her posts and she was here from time to time


Maybell, I realize you don't like me. I also believe you will think it is probably inflammatory.

I do want to clarify that 25 has NOT been on TO's threads until I believe around last Thursday. That is only 4 days ago...Where was she when help was needed months earlier?
I would appreciate it if you are going to make such statements because you don't like me that you would make sure they are factual. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 12:24 AM

Welllll now ...

Just for me personally, I find a lot of "balance" in the areas between 25's and JCred's posts here.

JCred, from where I sit, is focusing on behaviors and attitudes that are NOT guaranteed but DO tend to re-attract WAHs. (We've discussed this.) What I read from 25 here is how a person can look inside THEMSELVES to create healthy, sustainable changes - sustainable being the key word - to hopefully also help make their M healthy and sustainable.

I don't care what anyone says: Every person in this world has room for improvement. When a M breaks down, unless the WAS spouse is, for instance, a narcissist or an addict of some sort, BOTH spouses can accept SOME of the blame. It isn't fair, accurate or responsible to suggest that one spouse could have been perfect and the A would still happen. If that's the case, what hope does that give T0 - or any of us - for the future? Why, JCred, would you even be encouraging T0 to win her H back if you're also suggesting that he has such a character-flaw that he would cheat even if/when T0 was the perfect spouse?

This process MUST go further than re-attraction. And, sure, maybe, T0, you can worry about sustainable changes AFTER re-attracting H to your M. But I don't think so. THAT is part of the "double-prong" approach I followed and have offered in this case. It worked for me and others - like Starsky - and actually combines a lot of what JCred is saying (I'm reading through the lines and arrogance) AND what 25 is saying. Firm, confident, resolute, decisive ... all in love.

What does that look like to YOU?

To me, it looks like the idea I offered you the other night with the glass of wine and being light and breezy walking into the livingroom and offering for your H to join you for a drink *if he chose to* while you were catching up on shows. In that case, you would be showing him that his pouting was NOT going to bring you down but that you were still open to hang with him in a light and breezy kind of way. In other words, you shut the door on his negativity and open a door for possible positive interaction. (And, of course and obviously, when I offer my own words of wisdom, based on my own experience, you should take what you need and leave the rest. You're smart enough to decide what is useful for you and your situation and what is not.)

I don't think 25 is suggesting you throw yourself at your H and take all the blame. (I can tell from your responses back to 25 that you don't feel she's saying that, either.) Instead, I think she is encouraging you to do a lot of self-reflection to find ways you might be making *yourself* unhappy (and, as a result, making your H unhappy) ... and to work on fixing those things.

I might not agree with 25 or her approach/tact sometimes, but I absolutely agree with her that self-awareness and self-improvement is a cornerstone to a healthy M.

All that to say: I think there are nuggets of gold up there in those posts. *If* your H is back in an A, it is not going to help to go to MC. From everything I've read, it could actually hurt. He wouldn't fully participate and could even use his half-cocked participation as "punishment" later by saying, "See?!? I even tried MC, and that didn't work!! We're not meant to be!"

Why wouldn't you use an individual session with MC this week - especially since your MC seems awesome - to sit down, alone, with MC and say: "Here's what's going on. Help!" ??
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 12:26 AM

Holy crap. I am (as usual) so long-winded that I missed your most recent update. (Those came quick, while I was typing.)

H working for his ex-boss would be a deal-breaker for me, too, for sure. Absolutely.
Posted By: Maybell

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 12:38 AM

T, I'm sorry.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 12:41 AM

He said its just at night not full time

I replied that I would work extra and we would figure it out. That family was more important than money and we would make it work like we always have.

He said he's tired of being stressed. That he needs money and he's tired of not having it and that he's going back there. He's made the decision

I replied I'm sorry that you have chosen a job over your family after you knew it was a deal breaker for our marriage. Money is just money but fsmily can't be replaced. The boys and I love you and woukd do anything for you but I can't be in a marriage where you are working there
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 12:43 AM

T0, I don't have to tell you how detrimental it would be for your M for him to go back there. You obviously already know.

Stand FIRM in this particular non-negotiable boundary for you and your children.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 12:55 AM

I don't want a divorce. I am so sad. I just can't believe they are more important than our family
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 01:00 AM

Quote:
Why, JCred, would you even be encouraging T0 to win her H back if you're also suggesting that he has such a character-flaw that he would cheat even if/when T0 was the perfect spouse?


Only because she wants to save the marriage. I believe her best chance was to do what I suggested and get him to come begging back, then before she took him back, insist he do the work.. You know, the kind of work that drives men to this site and takes them months and months to figure out what it is all about. If that could have been accomplished, there may have very well been a different result...

It really may not be over yet.. A lot depends on TO and what she does. It seems to me that others have been telling her to understand how HE feels. She is supposed to understand that he feels bad because she maybe hasn't given him appreciation or he feels bad because of her anger..... I just don't agree that is really the issue... I have been saying these things from my male point of view on what I have seen again and again and again work on men like this. I must say I really can't remember ever seeing a woman win a man back by trying over and over and over to find some communication key that I keep seeing from some of the women here.

I will say again.. It is fine by me if these women think they know more about us men than we do. You all keep talking about men and here I am telling you these things but you seem to be so busy wanting to attack back at what I say and are missing the message. I don't think you are really LISTENING to learn...

Fine.... I visit many of these threads of women on here...
I see mostly women giving women advice on men to each other. Most of the men on here are still hurting and just learning. There really is only a handful of men that are through to the other side that I think understand where I come from...

Starsky is one.. A fine man with fantastic advice.....
I irritate women. He has a great way of explaining it.

I don't really see too many other men that are past the trying to save their relationship stage that are truly ready to GIVE advice..

So that means there are far more women giving advice to women about men than men helping women..... I don't mean to be rude, I don't mean to be arrogant and I am not trying to be inflammatory.... I have stayed off of Maybell's thread because she says I caused more harm than good. I stay off of Claire's thread, Goat Girl's thread and a number of other women threads who from my perspective would make some drastic gains by hearing from a man like me..

I think a part of it is that some of them don't want to really hear the way it really is.. I don't know.. It seems to be mostly women giving advice to women about their men... I don't see a whole lot of success except when I see threads like yours Train.. Note that Starsky helped you.. Coincidence?

I know 25 got angry at me because I said that her husband never had an affair. Well, the fact is he didn't. He wanted her to go with him to Alaska. That's in her own threads. It really is totally different than finding out your man wants out and doesn't love you and has another woman.. than saying he wants to move to somewhere, still loves you, but you don't want to go..

It really isn't the same thing. Her answer could just as easily been to go with him. She says that he still loved her and wanted her...... Of course that doesn't take away that she was hurt and all the emotions she had, but it isn't the same. It just isn't. Am I not allowed that view? Do you think a person who has never been betrayed by infidelity actually really understands completely what that actually feels like?

I just think they are totally different. It doesn't mean any more than that. That doesn't mean I don't value some things 25 says. I do believe she is taking her situation and trying to force or push TO into believing since 25 had an anger issue, that it means TO has one and to dig deeper.. TO has admitted again and again she is angry.. We all get angry. She has good reason to be angry and today's news shows that even more... Let her deal with it in her own way. Anger is NOT always bad.... It hasn't hurt her situation at all. This guy is a moron and knows deep inside he is the main reason for her anger..
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 01:15 AM

JCred, thank you for responding to that statement I made. I haven't read it yet, but I will and will get back to you.

T0, chin up, Buttercup!!! It's only the end when you say it's the end.

We have your back through this, Sweetheart. But YOU have to do the heavy-lifting.

If you want to be with your H - if you don't want a D - we are behind you to help you turn the ship around if it's possible. Yes, it's going to take your H honoring your non-negotiables. If he chooses to go to work for OW's dad - and since you've told him that is a non-negotiable deal-breaker for you - then he's just crossed a line that *you have told him* is a non-negotiable. If you re-negotiate that right now, you lose credibility with him. And that's one thing, IMO, you can't lose. You would also lose your own self-respect ... and any feelings of safety in your M.

I think you're making the right choice to make that a non-negotiable.

Stand firm, sister. This *WILL* blow up in your H's face. I just hope it happens before he actually takes that leap.

And I *do* believe your actions can influence H's decisions. But I don't think you're *responsible* for his decisions.

Hang tight, girl. I'm sure others will be on here for more advice and moral support soon. As for me? I'd need to gather my thoughts before I could tell you how *I*, personally, would respond.

Big hugs to you, mama. Big, big hugs.
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 01:17 AM

Quote:
I don't want a divorce. I am so sad. I just can't believe they are more important than our family


Yes, unbelievable.....

It isn't over yet..... I would guess your instincts are right and there is again another woman or the same one back in the picture. It has all of the red flags... I know you sensed this.... You have good instincts. Please let me know how I can help..
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 01:20 AM

Do I tell him he needs to leave the house. I'm not home yet but my dad said he just walked In. So back to working late now
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 01:20 AM

What do I do? How do I act? I'm a blubbering emotional mess

I don't want this. I want my H to pick his family over his job
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 01:27 AM

T0,

You said: "I just can't believe they are more important than our family." I'll just be honest: I don't believe that's what your H is saying. I believe he's suggesting that MONEY - and financial stability - is of utmost importance to him right now ... yes, even if that means risking his family.

First: BREATHE. Nothing happens overnight. Okay? Try to relax. You have TIME. I promise. You have time.
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 01:29 AM

Quote:
JCred, thank you for responding to that statement I made. I haven't read it yet, but I will and will get back to you.


Thanks Train. I do appreciate the support that you gave me and I understand that took courage. I know you have been through it and TO needs someone like you who has actually been through the exact same type of thing.


Great tact with your message.
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 01:32 AM

And - please - don't make any rash decisions tonight. As hard as I KNOW it is, please sit with this. If you have to go another night without sleep, so be it. You've gone STRINGS of nights with no sleep.

Please sit on this. Don't be reactive. Take the "c" out of "reactive" and throw it on the front of that word. Now you have "creative." You can't be creative if you're going to be reactive.

You can always tell H to leave. But maybe don't do it tonight.

Again, I speak from my own experiences. I threw H out during a fit of rage after he said something awfully mean to me in front of S8 at the time. I don't necessarily regret telling him to leave. But I sure wish I could have done it after 24 hours of thinking about it so that I had better control over my delivery.

Think about what you want to accomplish here. What is your goal?

You say you don't want a D. Kicking him out in anger is NOT going to help you get closer to that goal.

What is your goal? Ask yourself, with every choice you're going to make, "is this bringing me closer to my goal or pushing me further away from it?"
Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 01:39 AM

Originally Posted By: T0324
What do I do? How do I act? I'm a blubbering emotional mess

I don't want this. I want my H to pick his family over his job


Gosh T0, I very much doubt that HE sees it that way. ^^

He does Not believe he's making a choice like that.

Your h would not be the first man to think that "Everyone will get it later --and be glad- when they see the salary"....that the guy makes. They also tend to believe they can make up for their absence "later on" when they have time...

When asked,

many men say "me making more money = me being pro family".

And many men are "self identified" by their salary & occupation, AND their ability to provide for their families.

You have said here that you didn't talk about finances to him recently, "b/c it was an issue in the past" and I believe you.

But I also doubt he's forgotten the many previous comments made, or emotions he felt, about the importance HE believes you place on his earnings...

based on the past and his own values and self image.


Try not to frame it in a way that's essentially like an ultimatum.

The way you are framing it ^^, means he can't really disagree with you, AND Not be a failure or selfish jerk.

Make sense?


Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 01:53 AM

I'm going to dove-tail on what 25 just said and tell you that most men, according to a book I've recommended here before, details how men receive their value from their work while, simultaneously, one of most women's top-five emotional needs is financial stability.

You're smart, T0. Let that sink in for a while. A man's value AND one of a woman's top-most emotional needs: financial stability.

It's a perfect storm. Please give yourself time to think on that before you make ANY hasty decisions.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:03 AM

I don't want a divorce. I don't. I am sitting in my car a blubbering mess trying to compose myself. Can someone call me and talk me off the ledge

He can't work there. They are not good people and the OW is there. I just do not want that in my life

I am going to compose myself. I am working OT this week so I will be working everyday 6am-8pm ish until the weekend. Im going to go inside and hug my babies tight. I hope one day they can forgive me for putting them through this nightmare again.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:06 AM

[quote=JCred]25,

Where were you all the previous months and months when TO was posting?

Who cares where I was? Gee, maybe posting to one of the many other people here. The point is, I read her entire thread.



I wish you would take off your lawyer hat once in a while..



Since I haven't given legal advice to her, I have no idea why that is relevant.
It's not.

I think it's an attempt at insulting me or just deflecting. Red herring.


I've been posting to TO for quite some time, so the competition issue you mention is your issue and not mine.

See, I don't get this^^ at all. There's no ownership issues here.

No one has priority here. Who cares if you posted first? It's a red herring.

Your persistent refusal to cite or credit any of the DB methods or tools here, and refusing to disclose anything about yourself, is increasingly strange.



You are the one who suddenly is posting on this thread, not me.

So what?


Since you aren't a man and I am, then I would and do know more about what men think and how they respond to women like TO than you do. Her anger is a non issue. It does seem to be an issue you had. I am glad you worked on it.


Hm I think this^^ is your way of insulting someone who doesn't follow your instructions. But since I'm not the issue, it's another red herring.

T0 said in her thread that she wants to work on her anger.


I also have many male friends and have observed and talked deeply and privately about men things for quite some time. So I do know what I am talking about. That seems to ruffle your feathers. Well, I am here to tell you that I am not here to please you and I am not here to be another defendant in another court case. Please take the
lawyer hat off.


What are you talking about? Who is prosecuting you? In what court??


I told TO how to get her husband to respond because I do know what men like her husband think and I know how they act and I know what they respond to.

And no, my advice is not the same as your advice. You don't get to set the reality here.

You came on this thread way late, so I do question where YOU have been for so long.

For all your talk about your growth and such, your post to me today certainly came across as rude and not necessary. Sounds like I hit a nerve because you don't like to hear those things. -

Red herring again.

You told T0 that she should NOT listen to others, just you.

You also misstated MY own story and That's what I responded to.


Why don't you tell us more about your experiences then? Then we'll know how you arrive at your suggestions.

Because THIS site is about Divorce Busting and it's based on MWD's teachings.


I guess you want to take over here from what your posts read to me. Don't know where you were all those months before, but now you come barging in and take over.

Seriously? You resent that I "Barged in" to post to her, and then gave advice you did not agree with? SIGH

I can't tell if this is real or a prank.





T0, I'm sorry for all this. I know you have enough on your plate that you don't need people carping on your thread. But after 9 years, this is a first for me.

Anyhow, back to you. I stand by the suggestion to get a DB coach even if just for the 3 sessions.

Seriously, it's NOT mc, which actually can set you back. DB Coaches are specific in their advice, they'll know your situation and your goal. And though people here want to support marriages and restoring them, no one thinks it must be done, at all costs.

The coach will be an invaluable resource to you.

AND IF the time comes when your h ever seems to want help in remaining married, (which he obviously needs) please consider Retrovaille.
Have you looked into it? They are solution based, so unlike mc's, they are not really capable of injuring the marriage, whereas I'm not sure one can always say that about mc. And I have had good mc's but as i said earlier, that can be fragmented and as you know, having to wait to address something, can be wrenching.

Retrovaille is a wonderful experience that turns very troubled marriages, around. Their success rate (here, at least) is 82% and considering how troubled the marriages and people were that attended, that's an amazing statistic. Ask around, there are a lot of positives about Retrovaille to be found.
Again, please consider the DB coach b/c you can make that call tonight and get some clarity about your goals and how to frame things for yourself.

Good luck!

Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:10 AM

Quote:
Do I tell him he needs to leave the house.


Yes. He needs to leave the house.

You said this was a deal breaker for you. He was told and agreed it was when you reconciled. He needs to learn the hard way like many men who put their job and career first before learning their wife and family is far more important. You obviously aren't first TO.... I wouldn't settle for anything less. There is something more going on here. Don't be fooled.


Not to mention of where this job is.....
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:14 AM

T0,

Stop. YOU are not putting your babies through anything. Quite the contrary. You are FIGHTING to keep your marriage/family together.

*Pull yourself together*. If I could post my number for you to call me right now, I *would*. But you have all this inside you. Pull yourself together. Get those tears out of your eyes.

Decisive, confident. You've got this, baby.

Keep your lips ZIPPED in front of H tonight. STFU is your assignment for now. No other "rule" matters. Pleeeeeeeease heed the rule to STFU tonight. If you're anything like me, you've heard all your life not to go to bed angry. Screw that advice tonight. Go to bed angry. Keep those (well-deserved) angry thoughts to yourself. Please. And then let's re-group tomorrow when you have time to post here .. even though I KNOW you'll be really sleepy and tired. Okay?
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:16 AM

JCred, I disagree with you here. T0, you can kick H out any time. Not tonight. NOT TONIGHT.
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:20 AM

I'm going to repost this, from my earlier post tonight in case you missed it because of rapid-fire posts on this thread. THESE are questions straight out of DB:

Think about what you want to accomplish here. What is your goal?

You say you don't want a D. Kicking him out in anger is NOT going to help you get closer to that goal.

What is your goal? Ask yourself, with every choice you're going to make, "is this bringing me closer to my goal or pushing me further away from it?"


PLEASE ask yourself these questions before you would kick H out of the house for something he SAID and not something he's DONE.

Like I said, let's regroup here tomorrow, T0. You'll be thinking a lot more clearly.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:25 AM

He came in and said goodnight to the boys. No goodnight to me or a kiss like usual. I just said goodnight H.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:26 AM

I want to ask him if there's someone else
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:28 AM

Do not talk to him tonight, T0. You did the best thing you could do for tonight.

Pat yourself on the back for that.

I know this is going to be a ROUGH night for you. Tomorrow may not be a lot better. But tomorrow is a new day. And we're here for you tomorrow. (And tonight, as long as you need us.)
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:28 AM

Quote:
JCred, I disagree with you here. T0, you can kick H out any time. Not tonight. NOT TONIGHT.


laugh That's fine. I'm not saying he has to leave tonight.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:29 AM

Can I go out there and say

I hope you can remember the things you said in August. I hooe you can find your way back to our family

How do I fix this? I know it's over. I know he does not want me. I can't accept that
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:30 AM

NO!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:31 AM

Do not breathe a WORD to him tonight!!! I don't care if you have to go kick a brick wall outside ... or throw freaking cast-iron skillets against a tree ... DO NOT BREATHE A WORD TO H TONIGHT, NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:31 AM

Why? I just feel like I'm giving up. He will be back there tomorrow. They are terrible influences
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:34 AM

DO NOTHING TONITE.
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:34 AM

Quote:
Where were you all the previous months and months when TO was posting?

Who cares where I was? Gee, maybe posting to one of the many other people here. The point is, I read her entire thread.


I wish you would take off your lawyer hat once in a while..


Since I haven't given legal advice to her, I have no idea why that is relevant.
It's not.

I think it's an attempt at insulting me or just deflecting. Red herring.

I've been posting to TO for quite some time, so the competition issue you mention is your issue and not mine.

See, I don't get this^^ at all. There's no ownership issues here.

No one has priority here. Who cares if you posted first? It's a red herring.

Your persistent refusal to cite or credit any of the DB methods or tools here, and refusing to disclose anything about yourself, is increasingly strange.


You are the one who suddenly is posting on this thread, not me.

So what?

Since you aren't a man and I am, then I would and do know more about what men think and how they respond to women like TO than you do. Her anger is a non issue. It does seem to be an issue you had. I am glad you worked on it.


Hm I think this^^ is your way of insulting someone who doesn't follow your instructions. But since I'm not the issue, it's another red herring.

T0 said in her thread that she wants to work on her anger.

I also have many male friends and have observed and talked deeply and privately about men things for quite some time. So I do know what I am talking about. That seems to ruffle your feathers. Well, I am here to tell you that I am not here to please you and I am not here to be another defendant in another court case. Please take the
lawyer hat off.

What are you talking about? Who is prosecuting you? In what court??

I told TO how to get her husband to respond because I do know what men like her husband think and I know how they act and I know what they respond to.

And no, my advice is not the same as your advice. You don't get to set the reality here.

You came on this thread way late, so I do question where YOU have been for so long.

For all your talk about your growth and such, your post to me today certainly came across as rude and not necessary. Sounds like I hit a nerve because you don't like to hear those things. -

Red herring again.

You told T0 that she should NOT listen to others, just you.

You also misstated MY own story and That's what I responded to.


Why don't you tell us more about your experiences then? Then we'll know how you arrive at your suggestions.

Because THIS site is about Divorce Busting and it's based on MWD's teachings.


I guess you want to take over here from what your posts read to me. Don't know where you were all those months before, but now you come barging in and take over.

Seriously? You resent that I "Barged in" to post to her, and then gave advice you did not agree with? SIGH

I can't tell if this is real or a prank.



So there you go men(see above)...... Take my advice...
Arguing with a woman is like getting arrested,
everything you say, can and will be used against you..
So use your right to remain SILENT!!!!

Just sayin...
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:34 AM

And IF he goes tomorrow, THEN we ALL come up with a CREATIVE - not REACTIVE - way to help you through that.

Your anger - understandably - is speaking to you HARD right now.

Speak back. Tell it: No, ma'am. Not tonight.

I'm no expert, honey, but please trust me on this: Nothing - NOTHING - good comes from a place of desperation or anger. Pleeeeeeease trust me on this.

You'll feel SO much better if we can all talk about this once you've had a night to absorb it and calm down. You KNOW this about yourself. I know this about MYself.

Please just STFU tonight.

This isn't about you getting a word in. This is about something much bigger. Please just STFU. For tonight.
Posted By: nit84

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:35 AM

T0,

Listen to train on this. I was the same way as you a lot of the times and actually I am not at my strongest at the moment either.

I honestly recite those lines almost daily What is my Goal? Is doing what I think is correct getting me closer to my goal?

I have often wanted to confront my W on her A in a stronger manner than I have. I feel she knows I know so if I keep bringing up it will just push her further away IMO.

You can ask him tomorrow or later. Emotions are running high it is not the best time to do this.

I have been following your thread and felt I needed to comment.

Take care and like train says regroup and tomorrow is a new day
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 02:44 AM

You both need to stop, please. I appreciate you both greatly. Just please agree to disagree and both continue to come here and help me because I am a mess and I need you both. I actually need all of you!

I know I am stronger than this but I feel so weak.

I want him to be the man he was ...where is the man that would do anything? The man that was so terrified to lose me when mediation was looming
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:00 AM

I guess he has been talking to his mom.

He told her ..: he is just over everything, over being frustrated at home and at work. He is miserable.

I asked her not to say anything on my behalf. She is furious with him that he would even think to go there and jeopardize our family.
Posted By: Maybell

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:04 AM

I wish there were a way for you to step back from this a little and give yourself a break. It feels like this has been the focus of your home life for the last month or more, and I don't see how either of you could have kept from cracking under that kind of pressure.

Sending you and your H prayers for peace and wisdom, and that you'll be able to be open and clear in the morning.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:04 AM

T0

what about the DB coaching? (I'm not getting a commission, I swear.)

Is it something you are interested in, or do you think you need something else?

The DB coaches really do cut to the chase and give specific advice to your situation. They really do have your interests at heart. Around here where I live, they are actually less expensive than the MC's we used. Can it really hurt?
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:09 AM

Thanks Maybell.

I did not have a good experience with the DB cosch
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:25 AM

Quote:
You both need to stop, please.


You're right. I apologize to you.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:29 AM

No need to apologize, thank you though

What is my next course of action? I imagine he will sleep on the couch and end up leaving in s few days to a friends house
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:33 AM

you're mindreading.
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:35 AM

Well he's alesady on the couch now and telling his mom he's done. If he's repeating history like we are thus far. That is the next step
Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:37 AM

Originally Posted By: T0324
Thanks Maybell.

I did not have a good experience with the DB cosch



Yikes, that's a first, but it's also a huge bummer. Seriously huge.

Of course I'm very curious to know how or what happened (!!) but I'll let you shed light on that when you are comfortable doing so. (it would be valuable feedback for the coaches and others as well. Really, I mean that).

FYI, the coach I had was mainly Vernetta, a true Godsend. (Weirdly perfect for me, if you KWIM). I would take notes and she'd give me "Gems" of wisdom that I just cannot repay.

I also Had Laurie and or Jody (I think?) a few times. She was also good but didn't know my whole situation as well so not quite the same. (But better than 90% of mc's).

Vernetta gave me insights that just resonated perfectly and yes, I'm a believer in divine intervention. So at times like that, it was clear that someone was looking out for me.

Looking back, clearly I bonded with Vernetta in a deep way. Also I have heard Chuck is very good. IF you bought a package then ask around about others -so you can try someone else, and not lose the money!!

And hang in there. Nothing need be done or decided tonight. Can you give yourself an internal timeline, so that you know that, eventually, limbo will have ended?

Also gives you that inner awareness that indeed, you do control some things, like how long you'll do X and Y, and that's empowering.

We are all rooting for you.
(((( ))))
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:38 AM

I'm not against talking (arguing) tonight if you want my honest opinion.
So what if you argue? Michelle says in DR that in healthy relationship people need to air their grievances... Might do you good to let the air out and him too...

I know if it was me, I would confront it head on and not let it fester. That's just me and the way I tick... I know I would just say I am going to confront this now....
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:41 AM

Deep down inside I know nothing good will come of talking to him tonight

He expects me to talk. That's me. He expects me to flip out and cry. He won't get that satisfaction tonight. Well not that he knows of.

Now tomorrow I'm not sure.
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:43 AM

"*If* he's repeating history" ...

Maybe he is. Maybe he isn't.

If he goes to work at OW's dad's tomorrow, let's talk. You will have little - if any - time to do anything between now and then anyway. NOTHING you say will stop him if he's determined to do it.

Do I need to repeat that? NOTHING you say will stop him if he's determined to do it.

In fact, if you say anything right now, you're essentially DRIVING him there.

He's a big boy, T0. He KNOWS what your non-negotiables are because you've told him. Repeating them only weakens them. Let it go.

If he goes tomorrow? Let's talk again. (And we can talk in the meantime, too.) But don't dare breathe a word to him in the meantime. Do not weaken your stance.
Posted By: JCred

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:44 AM

OK. Sounds good.
You have a good head on your shoulders and I know it is practically impossible to not go over everything in your head time after time after time...
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:47 AM

I won't know if he goes there unless I ask
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:56 AM

Wait to see what he does tomorrow.

Or at least wait to see how you feel tomorrow.

Just wait until tomorrow.

And don't say anything until you've come here to "dump" first.

Can you agree to that, T0?
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 03:58 AM

Yes. I've been in bed and he's been on the couch. I told you the only interaction we had was him saying goodnight to the boys and ignoring me. Me saying goodnight H.

I will wait until tomorrow

I can guarantee he won't say anything. That's why he told me this via text while I was at work. To avoid confrontation. He won't bring it up again. I will just be waiting to hear from my lawyer or his and him to leave.

My gut leads me well.
Posted By: Train

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 04:01 AM

THIS is why you need strong intel and a full transparency plan *as soon as they come back*.

But lacking that - even though, okay, you shouldn't have put yourself in that position - you CAN find out if he goes there tomorrow if you want to (and without asking him). You're a smart cookie and can find out anything you want to, if you really WANT to.

(And if it's a non-negotiable for you, then you SHOULD find out if he's there. But you know the consequences for stating a non-negotiable ... or for "sliding" on one ... )
Posted By: gan

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 12:24 PM

Wishing you BIG HUGS today T0 as I am off to bed. I hope you managed to get some zzzz. Train has given you some very sage advice and I am sure she and everyone else will help you get through this. Remember to breathe......
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 01:16 PM

Thank you everyone. Thank you for last night.

No news here ... H slept on the couch and we had no interaction besides me saying good night.

Trying to figure out my next move. I don't want ad but I also don't believe me conceding to his wants will be fruitful for me either.

I'm tired of this. I am just tired period. I don't want to go back to the life the boys and I lived without him. I want him to be fighting for us not against us

Again, thanks for listening to me ramble.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 06:13 PM

Originally Posted By: Train
THIS is why you need strong intel and a full transparency plan *as soon as they come back*.

But lacking that - even though, okay, you shouldn't have put yourself in that position - you CAN find out if he goes there tomorrow if you want to (and without asking him). You're a smart cookie and can find out anything you want to, if you really WANT to.

(And if it's a non-negotiable for you, then you SHOULD find out if he's there.
But you know the consequences for stating a non-negotiable ... or for "sliding" on one ... )


Whereas DB usually advises against snooping, this^^ is the exception.

Meaning, if you KNOW that a specific behavior will absolutely mean a divorce,

then it seems like something you would want to verify.


IF not, then there are valid reasons Not to snoop...and just become the better choice; i.e. a woman only a fool would leave.

But issuing another ultimatum will fall on deaf ears. And as Train said, the more you repeat your wants that he already knows, and the more you repeat your boundaries, the less powerful they'll look.

It sounds as if an affair at this point, is a deal breaker. I totally get that.

What do you think?

IOW, Given the givens, (= no option is very appealing)

what do you want to know and or, do? And, are you ready?
Posted By: T384

Re: T0324 continued part 2 - 01/13/15 07:05 PM

Hey 25

I made a new thread I think this one will lock soon

I don't want a D BUT I do not want this M. I don't want to be married to who he is right now
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