Well... the last thread locked in less than 3 days. Thank you everyone for your support, advice, and hard 2x4s. I really really hope good people are learning from my family's highs and lows.
I am not a dramatic person. My W is clearly a dramatic person. Even so, we were a very very boring family before all this. W clearly didn't like that.
Right after BD, as I was reeling and starting to suspect an A, I remember lying in bed with W and her angrily complaining how boring we were. She had the miserable irritated look I didn't recognize then but that I've come to know so well.
We had gone on a walk that night as a family. It was one of my early 180s... more family time ideas from me. She looked irritated and was texting through part of it. When I checked the phone records later... well you know. That was the start of the real deep awful pain.
Now we're in drama hell...
Today I did accept W's invitation to her new online calendar. In it she had a schedule for the next 4 weeks. It had changed again... now more evenly split. So more nights for her as now she apparently feels more confident she can keep S12 at her aunt's house. No problem.
Later, I respond to her text saying I would pick up S12 today as scheduled. I do not ask her if she can follow the schedule but she will ask me to make sure she says.
I also say I found an IC for S12 to talk to. I tell W I'm seeing an IC and recommend my IC as excellent.
W responds that's wonderful and she left a message with IC to meet her. No problem.
I go to get S12. He looks very unhappy. I ask what's wrong. He says he is depressed and "doesn't want to try to live anymore." He says how he hates all this... and school and homework are too much pressure... and how is he going to manage his game tomorrow night when school ends at 3, the game starts at 8:30... but the aunt's house is an hour away? I say you'll have to talk with mom.
I text W what S12 said ... he's depressed and "doesn't want to try to live anymore."
She texts "call me." I tell S12 to call his mom and tell her how he's feeling.
He does... and he went off on her. Finally told her everything. How he doesn't trust her b/c she lies. How she's making him and me hate her. How he wants to see me more than a couple nights. How his life is over. How he wants to quit school he's under so much pressure. How he just wants to give up. How the chance of mom and dad getting back together was so slim he has no hope.
He asked... "How are we going to do my game tomorrow? Where am I going to sleep?" She answered I'm sure the aunt's house.
He hung up on her.
She called back and he didn't answer.
She called again and he answered and kept going.
She tried to talk about me. He said "Don't bring dad into this! This is between me and you!"
He was on the phone for 20 minutes. It was the clearest I've ever heard him speak. Very direct. He was very unhappy.
At the end, we were back in the condo and he was in his room. I closed his door so he could speak privately. I sat and waited for W to call me.
He came out. Said he didn't want to talk about it. Went to do his homework.
I missed W call... not on purpose.
She left an incredible VM... "Just talked with s12 and you're absolutely right. I think it's imperative we get a therapist for him. I also know that the feelings he's having are very normal for a child his age going through a separation. I am alarmed by some of the things he said but I am extremely happy he was able to express his feelings although they were very hurtful to hear."
She said all this in an even voice. She did choke now and then on some of the words.
She went on to ask if I had set an IC appointment for him. That the appointment that she set with my IC was for herself.
And she suggested we change the schedule again so he would sleep here with me in the condo most nights to give him "stability." She would then drive him to and from school and help him with homework after school (I guess at the coffee shop or school library).
She also mentioned she would get her apartment sooner, on February 1, to help S12. She said her idea to stay at her aunt's house longer "does not quite seem to be a good one for him."
She told me she expected to get an apartment near his school by January 15. Instead, she really planed to get that apartment later in February. Her plan was to keep S12 an hour away from his school on her nights for at least 4 weeks. That's 18 nights. Even when she knew he didn't like staying there and without telling me her apartment would take so long.
And again... on the first day of her new schedule... she has to take it all back and ask me for help.
And, with the therapist... I told her S12 was having a hard time. "Yes of course he's sad but we have a good time together." Now, she's alarmed and hurt about what he said but "extremely happy" he felt he could say it.
What he said is... he hates her and doesn't trust her and she's a liar and she's ruining his life.
I trade some texts with her. She says her IC appointment is to talk about S12. I make an IC appointment for S12 the day after. She texts she wants to talk. She texts S12... tell dad I'm calling to talk. He tells me. Phone rings. I take advice... deep breath, relax, then I answer.
She apologizes for calling. She sounds sad. She asks if I'm going to the basketball game tomorrow. I say yes. She says can I please help her with it. The aunt lives too far away. S12 wants to stay at the condo. She gives me all these options.
I say... very cordially with no trace of anger in my voice... I will pick S12 up from school... bring him to the condo... take him to the game later... and bring him to the condo to spend the night with me. You don't have to come.
She says she wants to be there.
Then she says... "But you have plans. What about your plans?"
"Don't worry about it. Is there anything else."
"Yes I want to..." She sounds frustrated and stops.
After a pause I say... "If there's anything else let me know. I've got to get back to work. Talk to you later." I hang up. Very cordial.
Later she texts me... "I just talked to the teacher." Then nothing else. That was an hour ago.
When I spoke with my IC... she was surprised my W called her and made an appointment. Asked if I was OK with that. Promised confidentiality. I said I wouldn't expect anything else.
...
I handled W very cordially. I was sad more than angry. I heard her tell s12... "I know you're angry I feel me and dad should be separated right now." At least she wasn't giving him false hope like she did before. She certainly does not feel she can cry to me anymore. I made sure of that. I would like to reach out to her now... but I don't know how and I know I shouldn't. Just send us all to IC
and we'll be fine.
So yes I'll be GALing at the game tomorrow and every game. I'll be cordial and empathetic to my W who has just heard her son hates her.
Oh, now she just called him again. He tells me she's downstairs delivering his bag of clothes. Last time they were dirty and I had to wash them. Let's see if she does that again.
Very hard to read about your Ss pain. So sorry he has to go through this. Stay strong for him , your doing great. Rd
It is imperative that your son talks to a therapist. He is crying for help and with the teen suicides happening these days take his words seriously. His Mother is not able to be the rock he needs in life right now. So it's up to you. Kids need to feel loved, safe and wanted. Keep us updated.
YOUR SON NEEDS HELP ASAP. Those are extreme things for a 12 y/o to say.
Please get him help now. Call the IC today and repeat what your son told you about NOT wanting to live. This is no joke and not a "hollow gesture". It's a desperate cry of pain.
Unite with your wife on this as a team. Do NOT blame her for anything at this point, or you'll hinder HER efforts and appear to be guilting her at a time when your son needs to be the focus.
Well... the last thread locked in less than 3 days. Thank you everyone for your support, advice, and hard 2x4s. I really really hope good people are learning from my family's highs and lows.
This is a solution based site. Venting is fine IF IT HELPS CALM YOU
but if it merely keeps you stuck in anger or victimhood, mind reading and negating life, then it's Not helping you. It's hurting you and your cause.
I am not a dramatic person. My W is clearly a dramatic person. Even so, we were a very very boring family before all this. W clearly didn't like that.
Right after BD, as I was reeling and starting to suspect an A, I remember lying in bed with W and her angrily complaining how boring we were. She had the miserable irritated look I didn't recognize then but that I've come to know so well.
We had gone on a walk that night as a family. It was one of my early 180s... more family time ideas from me. She looked irritated and was texting through part of it. When I checked the phone records later... well you know. That was the start of the real deep awful pain.
Now we're in drama hell...
Today I did accept W's invitation to her new online calendar. In it she had a schedule for the next 4 weeks. It had changed again... now more evenly split.
you said you wanted this^^, remember? Be careful what you wish for.
So more nights for her as now she apparently feels more confident she can keep S12 at her aunt's house. No problem.
Later, I respond to her text saying I would pick up S12 today as scheduled. I do not ask her if she can follow the schedule but she will ask me to make sure she says.
I also say I found an IC for S12 to talk to. I tell W I'm seeing an IC and recommend my IC as excellent.
Wait, What??
You 1) disclosed that YOU are seeing an IC...why tell her that?
2) you suggested SHE use the same IC as you? Why on earth would you do that?
Doesn't it reek of manipulation? Isn't the real reason you are choosing to disclose that so that you can get an ally in the battle of your wife's choices?
OR is this some type of "parenting" Counselor to help you both help your son?
(If it is to help your son, I support that completely. Otherwise I don't get it, at all).
W responds that's wonderful and she left a message with IC to meet her. No problem.
I go to get S12. He looks very unhappy. I ask what's wrong. He says he is depressed and "doesn't want to try to live anymore." He says how he hates all this... and school and homework are too much pressure...
This is a Red Flare launched into the night sky. It's an SOS.
Heed his call, please.
and how is he going to manage his game tomorrow night when school ends at 3, the game starts at 8:30... but the aunt's house is an hour away? I say you'll have to talk with mom.
Why not help your son? This "payback" for your wife seems to be taking priority OVER YOUR SON'S WELFARE,
and imo, that's just wrong.
Even if you thought it would somehow help you reconcile, (???)
you are still deflecting from your son's problems and cries for help.
Stop making this about Your hurt feelings and man up to make it ALL about your son for now.
Seriously. This is a 911 Emergency and you don't get to put DBing or yourself ahead of him anymore.
Not now.
I text W what S12 said ... he's depressed and "doesn't want to try to live anymore."
She texts "call me." I tell S12 to call his mom and tell her how he's feeling.
This is ^^ getting insane. Your son just expressed SUICIDAL IDEAS
and when YOU TEXTED your wife-his mother-- and she naturally asked you to call her -
you fobbed this off on your emotionally fragile son. WTF???
He does... and he went off on her. Finally told her everything. How he doesn't trust her b/c she lies. How she's making him and me hate her. How he wants to see me more than a couple nights. How his life is over. How he wants to quit school he's under so much pressure. How he just wants to give up. How the chance of mom and dad getting back together was so slim he has no hope.
I fear this^^ made you happy. I worry that You saw his pain but the biggest thing you could make of it was how your pain was still more important... and inflicting some on her, felt great....too bad it was at the expense of your son.
He asked... "How are we going to do my game tomorrow? Where am I going to sleep?" She answered I'm sure the aunt's house.
The real issue for the game was that he was giving up having YOU there b/c you cannot handle it. I do feel that my last post to you, which I think Wonka referred to, was wasted on you. You are not hearing me.
He hung up on her.
She called back and he didn't answer.
She called again and he answered and kept going.
She tried to talk about me. He said "Don't bring dad into this! This is between me and you!"
He was on the phone for 20 minutes. It was the clearest I've ever heard him speak. Very direct. He was very unhappy.
At the end, we were back in the condo and he was in his room. I closed his door so he could speak privately. I sat and waited for W to call me.
He came out. Said he didn't want to talk about it. Went to do his homework.
I missed W call... not on purpose.
She left an incredible VM... "Just talked with s12 and you're absolutely right. I think it's imperative we get a therapist for him. I also know that the feelings he's having are very normal for a child his age going through a separation. I am alarmed by some of the things he said but I am extremely happy he was able to express his feelings although they were very hurtful to hear."
She said all this in an even voice. She did choke now and then on some of the words.
I think she put his welfare above her deeply hurt feelings. Frankly, I'm impressed with her behavior.
She wasn't interested in defending herself or being blame free nearly as much as she was with his being able to express himself. Good.
She went on to ask if I had set an IC appointment for him. That the appointment that she set with my IC was for herself.
IS this the IC you have whom you want for her? What is the goal here, now?
And she suggested we change the schedule again so he would sleep here with me in the condo most nights to give him "stability."
She said this To give him what HE asked for and says he needs. It's not about you.
She would then drive him to and from school and help him with homework after school (I guess at the coffee shop or school library).
She also mentioned she would get her apartment sooner, on February 1, to help S12. She said her idea to stay at her aunt's house longer "does not quite seem to be a good one for him."
She told me she expected to get an apartment near his school by January 15. Instead, she really planed to get that apartment later in February. Her plan was to keep S12 an hour away from his school on her nights for at least 4 weeks. That's 18 nights. Even when she knew he didn't like staying there and without telling me her apartment would take so long.
And again... on the first day of her new schedule... she has to take it all back and ask me for help.
And, with the therapist... I told her S12 was having a hard time. "Yes of course he's sad but we have a good time together." Now, she's alarmed and hurt about what he said but "extremely happy" he felt he could say it.
What he said is... he hates her and doesn't trust her and she's a liar and she's ruining his life.
is that really all that you heard? You may feel "vindicated" but imo, you did not help your son or your over all cause.
I trade some texts with her. She says her IC appointment is to talk about S12. I make an IC appointment for S12 the day after. She texts she wants to talk. She texts S12... tell dad I'm calling to talk. He tells me. Phone rings. I take advice... deep breath, relax, then I answer.
She apologizes for calling. She sounds sad. She asks if I'm going to the basketball game tomorrow. I say yes. She says can I please help her with it. The aunt lives too far away. S12 wants to stay at the condo. She gives me all these options.
I say... very cordially with no trace of anger in my voice... I will pick S12 up from school... bring him to the condo... take him to the game later... and bring him to the condo to spend the night with me. You don't have to come.
She says she wants to be there.
Then she says... "But you have plans. What about your plans?"
"Don't worry about it. Is there anything else."
"Yes I want to..." She sounds frustrated and stops.
After a pause I say... "If there's anything else let me know. I've got to get back to work. Talk to you later." I hang up. Very cordial.
Later she texts me... "I just talked to the teacher." Then nothing else. That was an hour ago.
When I spoke with my IC... she was surprised my W called her and made an appointment. Asked if I was OK seeing her. Promised confidentiality. I said I wouldn't expect anything else.
...I don't get why you suggested this^^ at all. Though Your wife said it's about s12 - do you disagree? What was your goal in asking her to see the IC?
If it was to help son, then again, makes sense. But I'm not clear on how you feel about it, and what your plans were for it. You send out mixed signals on this.
I handled W very cordially. I was sad more than angry. I heard her tell s12... "I know you're angry I feel me and dad should be separated right now." At least she wasn't giving him false hope like she did before.
IS there something "Wrong" with her answer here^^? It is the truth in her mind. She was not happy and wants to be separated from you. She does not think OM is the cause but rather, the symptom. (FWIW, I agree)
Did you HOPE she'd say "Sorry I'm such a lying monster wife/mom whore"...??? Remember, you are supposed to act in accordance with your goals,
NOT how you feel.
She certainly does not feel she can cry to me anymore. I made sure of that.
I would not gloat about this^^. Call your DB coach asap. Get back on track.
I would like to reach out to her now... but I don't know how and I know I shouldn't. Just send us all to IC
and we'll be fine.
uh, yeah sure. Because an hour of talking to someone else will make your son all better.
So yes I'll be GALing at the game tomorrow and every game. I'll be cordial and empathetic to my W who has just heard her son hates her.
To me you sound like someone bleating that he's been declared "Right"
but you are really missing out on the big picture here.
Your anger, your bff, is taking over your approach and that's not going to help you or your son.
What kind of legacy are you passing to him?
NOTE: I'm not asking about his mother's legacy to him or lessons he's learning from her. You have no control over those.
I'm asking YOU about what legacy and lessons You are passing onto him.
Oh, now she just called him again. He tells me she's downstairs delivering his bag of clothes. Last time they were dirty and I had to wash them. Let's see if she does that again.
Stop setting her up for failure in one of your endless tests, AND Lose the scorecard, asap please.
I can't believe you are content to wait til he sees YOUR IC to get him help.
HP,
I'm very relieved to hear S11 speak his mind with his Mom....I was a bit concerned about him feeling like he can't talk to his Mom about how he felt about this situation. Stay out of their R. It's for the two of them to figure out among themselves.
I am not a dramatic person. My W is clearly a dramatic person. Even so, we were a very very boring family before all this. W clearly didn't like that.
Now we're in drama hell...
Oh really?? Is that right, HP? So you're 'innocent' of your own contribution to the dramatic dynamic?? Interesting.
She left an incredible VM... "Just talked with s12 and you're absolutely right. I think it's imperative we get a therapist for him. I also know that the feelings he's having are very normal for a child his age going through a separation. I am alarmed by some of the things he said but I am extremely happy he was able to express his feelings although they were very hurtful to hear."
She said all this in an even voice. She did choke now and then on some of the words.
Leave it be....don't try to reassure or try to make W feel better for it is important that she process her own thoughts and feelings about their convo.
And she suggested we change the schedule again so he would sleep here with me in the condo most nights to give him "stability." She would then drive him to and from school and help him with homework after school (I guess at the coffee shop or school library).
I have to really commend W for really recognizing S11's feelings and making adjustments as appropriate. It's clear that she's trying to stay involved in S11's schoolwork and activities.
I trade some texts with her. She says her IC appointment is to talk about S12. I make an IC appointment for S12 the day after. She texts she wants to talk. She texts S12... tell dad I'm calling to talk. He tells me. Phone rings. I take advice... deep breath, relax, then I answer.
The bolded section is a very, very bad dynamic. Break it by answering W's texts and call her back as its about S11.
I say... very cordially with no trace of anger in my voice... I will pick S12 up from school... bring him to the condo... take him to the game later... and bring him to the condo to spend the night with me. You don't have to come.
This is the THIRD time that you've brought up that you don't want W there. Why is that Mom shouldn't be at her son's game?? Man up and grow a pair.
She says she wants to be there.
Then she says... "But you have plans. What about your plans?"
"Don't worry about it. Is there anything else."
"Yes I want to..." She sounds frustrated and stops.
After a pause I say... "If there's anything else let me know. I've got to get back to work. Talk to you later." I hang up. Very cordial.
Arrrrgh!! You just had to pipe up when staying silent would have elicited W to finish her sentence or train of thought. That would have been a golden opportunity to validate. Ahh well....it's a lost opportunity. Poof. Gone.
Oh, now she just called him again. He tells me she's downstairs delivering his bag of clothes. Last time they were dirty and I had to wash them. Let's see if she does that again.
How does that matter? Unless you're playing that scorecard.
PS
Our youngest has been acting out and showing fury at her dad for his absence during our separation from years ago.
IT's not easy at all. She's now 17. Lots of pain, lots or hormones and unresolved issues I'm only now really facing fully. I take her pain very very seriously.
Last Feb 28th, a 15 y/o boy she knew, left a suicide note for his friends and brother. The note mentioned several small to moderate things not going well in his life...
Then he jumped on the train tracks, stood up and faced the oncoming train, as his life ended...the funeral was even more brutal than you might imagine. I thought the parents would throw themselves into the grave...
That boy barely gave a warning. In fact, NO ONE saw it coming.
You need to make Your Son's PAIN your focus, not your pain.
The phrase oft used by WAS is "kids are resilient and I, an adult, need to go discover myself" But in reality'
it is the opposite. That^^ is backwards.
We are resilient and KIDS Need to discover themselves.
So HP, Be a lot more resilient, go to his freaking games without worrying how YOU will feel (in case your WAW is there!!!) This really truly is not about you or your wife or the choices you hate that she is making. Right now, it's about showing up for your son...
and getting your son some more help.
^^^^^^^^^^^ x100
Seriously. Get a grip on your anger....it is at the expense of all your Rs with your son and W. It isn't serving anyone at all.
Over the past week, your anger has grown bigger and bigger. You need to find a way manage it for everyone's sake. Most importantly for S11. Time to start acting like an adult, not a petulant little boy.
I agree with 25, this is some serious stuff. Love him as his Dad, he's struggling. Time to put HP, W, M aside and focus on your son. Put The DB aside for a few hours or days. I suggest W and HP get together, come up with a gameplan and talk to son, together. think about it, this is what's important to both of you. W has obviously showed it, now it's time for you to show it. You've been his rock, no doubt, but sometimes we need to put ourselves aside for those that need us. Remember talk is cheap, actions are where it's important
Seriously, hang up DB for a few days and be his parents, together. Tell him he's loved and no matter what that won't change.
Hi HP
Not sure if you've read my sitch. My r with s is one of the key reasons w quoted walking away. I've said this on several posts so guys forgive me reiterating. W and I had pursuer / pursued issues I'm or I was codependant before bd. W pushed me I withdrew into myself and redirected that frustration distancing s. And here I am.
For 4 weeks I didn't see s and losing then both nearly killed me. Now s comes and stays at least once a week. After years of working instead of attending sports events because I was working etc I finally got it. He didn't know where he stood with me if I really cared not because of what I did but because of inaction.
All these ^^^^ guys got your back on this, based on my experience with my s (our sitches are otherwise obviously different) please make time and pause the rest.
Not saying you're right or wrong just that its not always apparent to them. I've always loved my s but he was unsure, may still be somewhere in there, but I'll make sure my actions show my interest to ensure its apparent. He needed to know none of this was his fault and for me to talk and reassure him. W still doesn't really engage with me regarding r, may not do again but I won't lose s as well.
S and I have our own new traditions and were building fun things we do together but its taking time. Its all stressful and painful and yes it brings frustration. I let that frustration damage my relationship with s and I hope I'm now fixing that, if you want to chat on this just shout.
Thank you Wonka, 25, and everyone for the hard words. Today I thought I was staying out of the way of S12 saying what he's been wanting to say to W. I see what your saying about handling it better and then my reaction. My son is my priority but yes in my anger and focus on my hurt I did make serious mistakes today. I did leave a message for the IC specifically saying what my son said. I will follow-up in the morning.
I did write what happened to calm myself and examine what I did. I did see I was too happy to see S12 say what he wanted to say to W.
I was OK with her new proposed more balanced schedule. I didn't think she would propose it if S12 wasn't having a better time there.
About the IC... I was recommending the IC for S12 to see, not for W to see. It surprised me that W made an appointment to see her. I didn't recognize it was a mistake to tell W I was seeing an IC.
About S12's telling me his problem with the schedule and his basketball game... I did take your advice and decide to go to his game and told him so. Please know that I do listen very closely to you 25 and Wonka. I could not have made it this far without you. I have moments of doubt like my post saying I wouldn't go. I've never missed one of his games and I won't start now.
And on the her schedules yes I feel frustrated and at the same time vindicated when they fail. I know that is wrong. I do hate that S12 is subjected to her planning. At the same time... he wants to be with his mom. I quoted "stability" yes in anger regarding how she's going about all this. I did not like the businesslike way she described what was happening to our son in her VM.
And yes I was too happy S12 showed his mom his anger and I did leak snark and satisfaction all over that last post b/c I was focused on my W getting taught a hard painful lesson instead of where it should always be... on my son crying for help.
...
After all this, W called S12 downstairs to get his bags. She walked him back all the way to the condo door and then left.
When he came in, he was wearing a new pair of expensive basketball sneakers his mom bought him.
He said they talked he felt better about his mom.
We sat and ate dinner together at the table.
Then I called W. Asked her what she thought about S12. She talked for a long time. I did not say anything against anything she said and there was plenty I didn't like. I just let her talk. Short validations to show I was listening. She said she knows she's the bad parent and didn't try to convince S12 otherwise. That he's right to feel everything he feels. That she thinks therapy will help him.
She talked a lot about us being more civil. Her example was when she came to the condo door. S12 wanted her to come inside and have dinner. She told him she couldn't b/c she had to go back to the school for a function instead of "your dad F*cking hates me right now." She told him one day she and me would be friends again. I didn't say anything to that.
Earlier, S12 told me she said we would all be together again as a family. That's how he heard it.
She also said... S12 told her he didn't like how she was acting overly happy... her supermom thing. He said she should be acting how things really are. She thought she was doing him a favor. Instead, he said that's why he preferred being around me. I was listening to him and how he felt and wasn't acting like nothing is wrong. She said she would do better to listen to him instead of trying to fix him.
I didn't say hardly anything while she talked the whole time. Some very long pauses. Then she asked me if there was anything I wanted to talk about or say. After a long pause I said no, I'm going to get off the phone. She said how much she appreciated talking with me and she hopes we can do it again. She wants to talk and it meant a lot to her that we got to talk. She thanked me for talking to her. I hung up.
S12 just got out of the shower. I'm going to hang with him and put him to bed.
I'm so sorry we're all going through this. I'm angry that my W didn't even think of saying lets get together and work something out. That I couldn't ask her to come home with us and let's all heal together. That our solutions to this horrible problem could be so different. Like so many other people here... why make this so hard. Is what you're trying to do making you happy now?
One thing she said is... she knows what S12 is going through from the divorces her mom went through. She knows how painful this is. But not enough to come heal your family? She called me a great father. Not enough. Not enough to come here right now and be with her son?
I don't understand.
HP,
Its been a tough night for you, so if you're spent, do this tomorrow. Not that I have any clue what I'm doing in this whole process, but I have an exercise for you.
I was reading your post here. Go back and read it yourself and do one of those old English Class assignments. For each paragraph, what's the topic, who's the protagonist and who's the antagonist. Do you see a change?
What happened to HP to make them switch and why?
Look, this is a Godwink moment for you and W. Let it be that. Look what you both did tonight. You talked about how you feel and didn't get angry, upset or anything....and guess what, it looks like you both felt the same way. Why? There was a common bond. Its a little bit of what I pray every night that I can communicate with W enough to establish that bond. For some reason it hasn't happened in our sitch, but at first it seemed to happen in yours.....and then your last couple paragraphs......what happened?
About the IC... I was recommending the IC for S12 to see, not for W to see. It surprised me that W made an appointment to see her. I didn't recognize it was a mistake to tell W I was seeing an IC.
I don't think it's a mistake that you're telling her you're seeing someone. It was a mistake to tell her who. I'm surprised your therapist agreed to see her. Most would avoid seeing a separated spouse of a client due to a conflict of interest. At least around here.
And on the her schedules yes I feel frustrated and at the same time vindicated when they fail. I know that is wrong. I do hate that S12 is subjected to her planning. At the same time... he wants to be with his mom. I quoted "stability" yes in anger regarding how she's going about all this. I did not like the businesslike way she described what was happening to our son in her VM.
And had she not been business like, likely you would be criticizing her for not taking it seriously. Or being "super mom"
And yes I was too happy S12 showed his mom his anger and I did leak snark and satisfaction all over that last post b/c I was focused on my W getting taught a hard painful lesson instead of where it should always be... on my son crying for help.
When things have a chance to settle back in, you need to talk to you IC and explore this more. Very very concerning.
Then I called W. Asked her what she thought about S12. She talked for a long time. I did not say anything against anything she said and there was plenty I didn't like.
Well, no surprise there. Can you give an example of what you didn't like? And why you didn't like it?
She talked a lot about us being more civil. Her example was when she came to the condo door. S12 wanted her to come inside and have dinner. She told him she couldn't b/c she had to go back to the school for a function instead of "your dad F*cking hates me right now." She told him one day she and me would be friends again. I didn't say anything to that.
Well, she's right isn't she? You won't let her in the condo, you won't talk to her, you pawn off messages through S 12.........
Had S12 come to you, after this afternoon and said, "I really would like mom to have dinner with us." What would you have done? Be completely honest.
I didn't say hardly anything while she talked the whole time. Some very long pauses. Then she asked me if there was anything I wanted to talk about or say. After a long pause I said no, I'm going to get off the phone. She said how much she appreciated talking with me and she hopes we can do it again. She wants to talk and it meant a lot to her that we got to talk. She thanked me for talking to her. I hung up.
Seriously? Seriously!?! So if I'm reading this correctly, you call your W because your son is making serious statements that need immediate attention, because the two of you are separated and what not, and you let her do all the talking but essentially pat yourself on the back because you talked to her on the phone and didn't disagree with what she had to say? Please, please tell me you had more I put or it was a more productive conversation than "you hardly said anything and there were long pauses."
I'm angry that my W didn't even think of saying lets get together and work something out.
Well how the hell could she? You won't let her in the front door physically or emotionally or anything. You've made it abundantly clear how displeased you are with her. Yeah, she could've said "let's work on this" but you know, the road home isn't exactly paved and smooth right now.
That I couldn't ask her to come home with us and let's all heal together.
So why can't you?
One thing she said is... she knows what S12 is going through from the divorces her mom went through. She knows how painful this is. But not enough to come heal your family? She called me a great father. Not enough. Not enough to come here right now and be with her son?
Hi pot, meet the kettle. You're so fixated on what your wife is doing wrong, that you fail to look at the contributions you've made as well. You're angry that she let y'all leave. You're angry that she's not reacting the way you feel she would react. You're angry and you keep feeding the monster.
I think w could come in and throw herself on a sword to apologize and you'd be pissed that she stained your carpet.
You both need to put aside your [censored] and take your son and his thoughts seriously. I don't understand why throughout this whole post, your focus STILL remains on how W disappoints you, how she's not handling the situation the way you would, and you gloss over S12. Why aren't we hearing How you're feeling about hearing what your son said? How you can improve. How you can out aside your differences to work with your W. How you can put aside your anger until you can work on it.
That's what I don't understand. It's your thread, you can post whatever you want, but when does it become HP's thoughts and reflections and not HP rants about his wife.
You have a tough road ahead, and I hope that you, your W and s12 can navigate it together.
On not understanding... she told S12 that... even though she acts happy with him... she cried 4 times today. That she's really just acting.
I can be a better me. I don't know if calling her tonight was right. She left a text hanging about talking to S12s teacher. I called and she got to talk about it. She cries. She appreciates talking to me and it means so much to her. She apologizes for calling. She loves and worries for her son while she makes decisions that hurt him and hurt her. Her decisions are not about me so I shouldn't take them personally.
I want to give up. As I was writing that line about my family being in drama hell... I was thinking that exact thought you wrote Wonka... am I causing this? I know neglected my W and my M. But now. I'm fighting this so I'm causing this drama. These pages and pages of drama. All me right? If I just sit here like a monk and let this all slide off me... maybe she would share what she's feeling with me... maybe my son would feel more hopeful... maybe she would feel safe enough to connect with me?
Or am I just wet noodle again b/c my W who doesn't love me said how much she appreciated talking with me. When I didn't even say anything.
I want to give up. I want to give up on this person.
She just sent me an email. "Here's something that may be helpful for us both to remember when helping our boy navigate this new world," she says. A bulleted list of ways to help kids in a separation. First bullet... accept the separation.
I don't know how not to be angry with this.
I don't know how to sit here and feel content.
I can't tell her how I feel about getting this email from her under these circumstances. I just let it go.
This new world.
HP,
I know this is so hard.
Accepting your situation does not mean agreeing with it.
I think about this a lot. I know someone whose partner died when they got hit by a car while walking across the street. She was holding his hand at the time.
I have a friend whose husband was diagnosed with cancer and died, leaving her with two young girls.
If your W had died, you would feel grief...and anger. But you would have to accept the reality of your situation.
This is the same thing. Accept the reality of your situation. Stop fighting it, and stop fighting her.
The way you have been acting... do you think you are being someone only a fool would leave? Are you giving her reasons to see you as her best option?
This may (or may not) be the hardest thing you'll ever do. You can do it.
HP,
Believe it or not, you DO have influence on this process through your words and actions (and inaction). First and foremost important step is to find your own center. Then the rest will flow much easily...I didn't say that it will be easy on you.
My son is my priority but yes in my anger and focus on my hurt I did make serious mistakes today.
Work through that anger...let it go. Continue holding onto it is like drinking poison and expecting W to die. Nope, it's only hurting you.
I did leave a message for the IC specifically saying what my son said. I will follow-up in the morning.
I'm glad to hear this. Stay on top of this issue and be sure to collaborate with W on this. United front to ensure that S11's emotional needs are addressed in healthy ways.
I did see I was too happy to see S12 say what he wanted to say to W.
Why were you "too happy" in this scenario? What did you hope to gain by this?
About S12's telling me his problem with the schedule and his basketball game... I did take your advice and decide to go to his game and told him so. Please know that I do listen very closely to you 25 and Wonka. I could not have made it this far without you. I have moments of doubt like my post saying I wouldn't go. I've never missed one of his games and I won't start now.
As I've said previously, always do the right thing by your son. ALWAYS.
I did not like the businesslike way she described what was happening to our son in her VM.
Why not? How/What did you 'expect' W to "behave" on the phone?
And yes I was too happy S12 showed his mom his anger and I did leak snark and satisfaction all over that last post b/c I was focused on my W getting taught a hard painful lesson instead of where it should always be... on my son crying for help.
You keep getting in the way of the process every single time you "desire" for W to 'learn the consequences" of her choices. How's that working out for ya?!! Not very well at all. Get the f@ck out of the way and life will take care of the "lesson" for her. Not your job.
When he came in, he was wearing a new pair of expensive basketball sneakers his mom bought him.
You have an odd way of noticing things that have no bearing on e sitch such as "dirty laundry" and "expensive sneakers." Why's that, HP?
He said they talked he felt better about his mom.
It's good to hear. Now, don't you dare to try and pump S11 for more info on what transpired between them. Not your business.
Then I called W. Asked her what she thought about S12. She talked for a long time. I did not say anything against anything she said and there was plenty I didn't like. I just let her talk.
I sense that you're deliberately leaving out the contents of what she said because you don't want to hear them or it contradicts your own narrative. Which is which, HP?
She said she knows she's the bad parent and didn't try to convince S12 otherwise. That he's right to feel everything he feels. That she thinks therapy will help him.
She's right in that S11 has every perfect right those feelings. I am glad to see that she's on board with S11 seeing a therapist. I did when my parents were divorcing when I was 11. I helped me tremendously.
She talked a lot about us being more civil. Her example was when she came to the condo door. S12 wanted her to come inside and have dinner. She told him she couldn't b/c she had to go back to the school for a function instead of "your dad F*cking hates me right now." She told him one day she and me would be friends again. I didn't say anything to that.
Why not? I think it would have been humbling to own your part in this and say that you wish to be civil as well. How hard is that??
She also said... S12 told her he didn't like how she was acting overly happy... her supermom thing. He said she should be acting how things really are. She thought she was doing him a favor. Instead, he said that's why he preferred being around me. I was listening to him and how he felt and wasn't acting like nothing is wrong. She said she would do better to listen to him instead of trying to fix him.
Like!! She's now aware of how S11 really feels and I sense that she will be making more of an effort in that direction.
I didn't say hardly anything while she talked the whole time. Some very long pauses. Then she asked me if there was anything I wanted to talk about or say. After a long pause I said no, I'm going to get off the phone. She said how much she appreciated talking with me and she hopes we can do it again. She wants to talk and it meant a lot to her that we got to talk. She thanked me for talking to her. I hung up.
It would have helped to say something like this:
W, I am glad we had this conversation about S11 even if it was difficult for all of us. I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me and I know it cannot be easy for you at all. I will keep you posted on S11's appointment with IC. I'll be at the ball game. Take care. I'm angry that my W didn't even think of saying lets get together and work something out. That I couldn't ask her to come home with us and let's all heal together. That our solutions to this horrible problem could be so different. Like so many other people here... why make this so hard. Is what you're trying to do making you happy now?
One thing she said is... she knows what S12 is going through from the divorces her mom went through. She knows how painful this is. But not enough to come heal your family? She called me a great father. Not enough. Not enough to come here right now and be with her son?
I don't understand.
You need to understand that a WAW will not feel this way as long as she has negative views and feelings about you and the M. It will take a long time for her to get to a positive frame of mind. Right now, she isn't feeling too good about the M because it is more of the same.
It's on you to change the dynamic. Through your actions, behaviors, words, and patterns.
Do you now see how your behaviors repulse W and not drawing her in?
HP,
Its been a tough night, may just want to chill for the evening with Son....re-address these things tomorrow.
___________
Now, I'm seeing HP from a couple threads ago....not the angry HP, but the beating himself up HP. You've grown a lot, we can all see the changes. However, because you've grown; doesn't mean your done growing. Have you looked at the stages of Grief?
1) denial
2) anger
3) bargaining
4) depression
5) acceptance
We are all going through this and its not linear. What you're feeling in HP is growth and managing grief at the same time. That's okay, we're not keeping score about HP, don't keep score yourself.
Just like claire said, acceptance is not agreeing. However, it means you are aware of where you are today.
Remember the quote you had a few pages ago from Band of Brothers? That was acceptance. It didn't mean they were going to live or die, but that quote was just telling them to accept the situation they are in.
I got a corny wooden saying last weekend that seemed very relevant for me right now. It said:
"Expect nothing, Appreciate Everything" Appreciate what you had tonight with W, expect nothing from it or from her. You guys made progress.
Hello claire, Calibri, and MCS. S12 is in bed now.
MCS, you're talking about the conversation I had with W on the phone? I don't know what happened. I'm writing what I'm feeling.
Hello claire. Those are very sobering examples and yes death is horrible. Somehow, at least for me, death, maybe b/c it's an irreversible one time event, is easier to accept than continuing betrayal that can be changed. And yes that is the issue that I stick on... the thing that I put in the way of doing something as simple as being cordial to another human being that I've known for 20 years. That is what wakes me up at 3:30 in the morning. That is the problem I have to solve or get over minute to minute.
If that was simply gone... this would be different for me. Forgiveness I see clearly now is hard for me in the absence of remorse. I'm sure that means it's not forgiveness. So, I don't accept someone who has wronged me without seeing remorse or at least seeing them pay. That is the character flaw I'm not so well dealing with.
So Calibri yes, when my W is describing how S12 is feeling... she should be upset b/c it's upsetting. Her acting businesslike or like nothing is wrong or like supermom is what bothers me b/c there's no remorse showing for what she's doing.
If she asked to come in the condo for dinner like nothing was wrong... I'd throw her the hell out. But if she hung her head and showed remorse... then sure have some lasagne.
My W is having an A and, while sad and conflicted and maybe torn, is not remorseful. Is accepting sending her son to therapy and hearing him say terrible things to her and being a part time parent. She's accepting thinking that her H hates her and let him take her son and leave her home. Is accepting schlepping her son for hours in traffic to school after he didn't get a good nights sleep b/c crying baby. Is accepting potentially ruining her and her family's financial future. Is accepting that she has no home when there is a home right here with people who want her here.
But I guess one person here... me... doesn't want her enough to act cordial for 2 minutes. Doesn't want her enough to forgive her or even act like he forgives her for the length of a basketball game. Or he doesn't have enough faith to believe that doing so will get him what he wants. To not be rejected by his W for someone else.
Ouch.
HP,
I was talking about when you were saying it's all your fault and you wanted to give up. I see tonight's discussion with W as a good thing.
This is tough, I know. My W won't talk to me at all, including anything about the kids unless we're in mediation. It's been this way for 5 months. One 1 sentence email "Kids were good, no issues" per week, no text, no phone, 45 minutes a week at mediation is all we have.
I guess I'm a little jealous that you had a conversation that found common ground with your W and it seemed productive. I've been wishing for that. You should take that conversation in itself as fantastic progress.
Or he doesn't have enough faith to believe that doing so will get him what he wants. To not be rejected by his W for someone else.
Ouch.
I came back to check in on you tonight.
I can relate entirely to your first sentence. All of us here have some sort of Hope, or faith that it could work out. Or rather we want it to work out. So, so much. Lately, I've been thinking about faith and the unknown and how it can apply to our individually sitch. We never know what's going to happen in life. When we first met our spouses, we didn't know if it would work out, but we wanted to try, because there was something there. We took a leap of faith, despite not knowing the end result. Now when things have done a 180 on us (and not in a good way) we are wary. We don't know if doing the work will get us what we want. We are overwhelmed. You are overwhelmed. I am overwhelmed. Many of us are overwhelmed.
I'm going to give you a hug for the second sentence. Because at the end of the day, that hurts. So very much.
HP,
When I went through my first divorce in 1993 my husband was behaving much like you very angry and bitter. Your son is stuck between you and your wife. He loves you both and probably feels torn in two. He has no other siblings to share the burden. He wants you both to be happy. He will feel guilty showing he is happy to see his Mom around you and visa versa.
Your son is crying out right now. He needs the grown ups in his life to grow up. When my youngest daughter was 14 she was diagnosed with cancer Ewing sarcoma. My ex husband and I came together as her parents. We let go of all the issues between us and we were there for our daughter night and day 24/7 for over a year. Thank God she is a Cancer survivor and now 25 yrs old.
I know you are hurting and putting up an angry front. Go for a run, buy a punching bag, anything to get the anger out in a healthy way. It's poison. Your son only has one childhood. You only have one life. I work in a hospital and I help many breath their last breath. We get to wake up tomorrow. Be thankful. Peace to you.
Hello MCS, Faith and Calibri.
Thanks MCS. I'm sorry your W is so negative about speaking with you. That must really hurt. Does it help you detach or make it harder? My W would love a friendly talk everyday I'm sure. It would be painful for me though and it is hard for me to understand how she can even ask me to talk. I guess, from her side, it's hard for her to understand why I would want her and our M back.
Calibri thank you for checking up on me. Yes faith can be a hard thing when you feel overwhelmed. I know exactly what I have to do with DB... confident, content, busy guy. I don't have to do it for long around W. Then I don't. If I had real faith... then I wouldn't be at all angry. I would just be naturally friendly with W.
Hello Karma. Yes I don't want at all to be the bitter angry husband. If he wasn't bitter and your husband did DB... would you have given him a second look? I'm happy to hear about your daughter and that you and your husband came together for her.
OK putting aside anger today. I'm going to see my son play basketball. That is my focus. Just act as if I'm having a good day and great life around W today. I will just observe any attempt my W makes to be friendly. I will have good PMA.
Onward.
Two things of note today -- and then I'm going to leave you alone. I feel like I've been poking at you with a stick.
1) I wonder if W feels that S12 will be ok with everything because she turned out "ok" with her parents divorce. When thinking about perception, I pause with this. I knew friends, when growing up, who were horrified at the thought of their parents divorcing. My own sister has been upset because my mom and step-dad hit a really nasty patch last year and looked like they were heading for divorce. Because I've always had divorced parents, or separated parents (my mom and step-dad seperated for 5+ years) it's my "normal" per say. I survived it, so I feel others. That's my perception and in turn, my reality. But for others, they don't have that view point. Maybe that's how W is "justifying" for lack of better words, her behavior. I dunno. Just a thought.
2. Actually have a good day today. Don't pretend. I know that's hard to wrap your mind around, but seriously, make it a great day. A former boss of mine, was ALWAYS in a great mood. Always having a good day. And then his wife was diagnosed with terminal cancer and we expected his mood to plummet. You know what? It didn't. He remained positive, upbeat and in a great mood -- at least in public. I asked him about it once, and he told me that every day was a great day -- because he woke up alive. He had another day with his W, and an opportunity to make a difference. He also said that it took more energy (for him) to be in a bad mood, rather than a good mood.
It impressed the hell out of me.
Anyway, two thoughts. Enjoy S12's game today.
HP,
Get in the mindset of really enjoying watching S12 play ball. Smile, laugh, relax....be YOU.
I asked him about it once, and he told me that every day was a great day -- because he woke up alive. He had another day with his W, and an opportunity to make a difference. He also said that it took more energy (for him) to be in a bad mood, rather than a good mood.
It impressed the hell out of me.
Lesson for all!
HP
you have a lot to take in. But please, do that. Don't just move on to the next issue b/c
THESE ARE THE issues now, i.e. your son's welfare AND the status of your interactions with your w.
Hello claire, Calibri, and MCS. S12 is in bed now.
MCS, you're talking about the conversation I had with W on the phone? I don't know what happened. I'm writing what I'm feeling.
Hello claire. Those are very sobering examples and yes death is horrible. Somehow, at least for me, death, maybe b/c it's an irreversible one time event, is easier to accept than continuing betrayal that can be changed.
I think It's easier for most LBSers to imagine being widowed, b/c then they would not feel Rejected.
My sister was abandoned by her first h. She said at the time that she'd prefer being a widow b/c then she would "get sympathy and not feel so much humiliation." Her wounded ego was her problem.
BTW, that particular sister never did look at or own her own part in the divorce -b/c her h left her for OW. That way, she felt more victimized and "right"...which is too bad, b/c she's still in the same type of interacting in her newer R's...
I hope you won't repeat her pattern...
And yes that is the issue that I stick on... the thing that I put in the way of doing something as simple as being cordial to another human being that I've known for 20 years. That is what wakes me up at 3:30 in the morning. That is the problem I have to solve or get over minute to minute.
If that was simply gone... this would be different for me. Forgiveness I see clearly now is hard for me in the absence of remorse. I'm sure that means it's not forgiveness.
Forgiveness is all, completely, about YOU. It literally has nothing to do with her.
Yeah, I know you are shaking your head. Seriously! I said the same thing.
But here's the deal. Her feeling remorse for an A and for her part in the marital problems--yes that would be necessary for a reconciliation.
it's Not needed for you to forgive her.
Forgiveness means, in part, you Letting go of your victim status and letting go of your scorecard. It means Not letting your wife's transgressions occupy so much space in your head/heart.
She does not have to know you forgave her b/c it's not about her. IT's about you.
I could elaborate but I think you need to just take some of this in...first.
So, I don't accept someone who has wronged me without seeing remorse or at least seeing them pay.
Yes indeed the desire for revenge IS a character flaw of yours. Hope you'll get past it really soon b/c it's actually a crippling flaw and you'll never, ever have a successful marriage or even a close friendship if you appoint yourself judge
AND executioner
(which is exactly what someone who "needs" revenge is doing)
no one will survive their friendship with you. You'll punish them, or wish to, whenever your feelings are hurt...that's not a friendship most adults care to have. And it had no place inside a family or marriage, imo.
I used to call it "justice" but eventually I realized that was my spin on me just wanting to punish and calling it 'fairness".
I think it's partly a spiritual issue, so maybe a cleric you know could help.
That is the character flaw I'm not so well dealing with.
So Calibri yes, when my W is describing how S12 is feeling... she should be upset b/c it's upsetting.
She IS upset. Does that make it "Fair" enough for you?
She also felt desperate enough to leave the marriage. Sadly, it was her way of coping with an untenable situation. You keep veering away from looking at it that way, but it's key here. EMPATHY is key.
Her acting businesslike or like nothing is wrong or like supermom is what bothers me b/c there's no remorse showing for what she's doing.
Stop mind reading. STOP mind reading. Whenever she reveals her sadness, you think she's wrong b/c she "should just come home" but when she hides it, you think she's wrong b/c she's not paying for her sins...
Hey, that is NOT an attractive package you are wrapping up for her. Who'd want to come home to that? You sound so judgmental and critical there's no way she'll believe that she can come home.
You are Not keeping the road home, paved & smooth.
IF I were your wife, I'd assume that if we tried to reconcile, you'd hold the A over my head, or throw it in my face every time we argued. I would think you'd believe I owed you so much, that disagreeing with you, would be "unacceptable" to you.
I don't think I"d believe you were doing serious soul searching to own your part.
I think I'd fear that the marital problems that compelled me to leave and hurt my only son, would remain or return quickly.
If she asked to come in the condo for dinner like nothing was wrong... I'd throw her the hell out. But if she hung her head and showed remorse... then sure have some lasagne.
Wow, that sure sounds appealing. I wonder why she hasn't come to you, tail between her legs and begged for forgiveness...
Why do you think she hasn't done that, HP?
My W is having an A and, while sad and conflicted and maybe torn, is not remorseful. Is accepting sending her son to therapy and hearing him say terrible things to her and being a part time parent. She's accepting thinking that her H hates her and let him take her son and leave her home.
Well, HP, what choice does she have? I mean, you act as if you hate her. You've made it clear that the humiliation you would require from her (which you call "remorse") is something, evidently, she cannot do. Maybe she feels she has earned the right to an A.
((Almost every woman I know who has had an A, believes she deserved to have it b/c a critical element in her marriage was missing.))
I know is that when a woman with a child leaves a marriage for any reason, it sure must be a biggie to her.
Is accepting schlepping her son for hours in traffic to school after he didn't get a good nights sleep b/c crying baby. Is accepting potentially ruining her and her family's financial future. Is accepting that she has no home when there is a home right here with people who want her here.
wait, who is it that wants her home? Not you...
You mean your son? Ah, but you made it clear he doesn't get to be with her in the home b/c of the A...and lack of sufficient remorse in your eyes.
Even wonder if maybe she's not showing you her pain b/c it gets her nowhere - and makes it harder on your/her son? NOW She knows he needs to see her pain so he knows she cares about him.
Who gave him the idea that if his mom isn't overtly mourning, that she must be okay with all of this?
But I guess one person here... me... doesn't want her enough to act cordial for 2 minutes.
OR
Doesn't want his son to feel better, enough to overcome his desire to "make her pay".
Doesn't want her (OR HIS SON'S PEACE)
enough to forgive her or even act like he forgives her for the length of a basketball game.
Your mistake here^ is significant. No one thinks being cordial = forgiveness, (except you.)
You must remedy this mistaken belief, fast.
Being courteous b/c you are co-parents will remain impossible if you think it's "Giving HER" something. It's not. It's giving your son something and it's being an adult.
have you ever been courteous to a rude boss? Or accepted something you did not agree with, with civility? Or must you continue in your protests, ad infinitum?
Life is short HP....
Or he doesn't have enough faith to believe that doing so will get him what he wants. To not be rejected by his W for someone else.
Ouch.
So you believe that being courteous or cordial to your wife in front of your son, means you are going out on a limb? What are you risking?
Maybe you think it's risking rejection but That's only because you attach expectations (= "won't get him what he wants"...)
It's supposed to be about your behavior around your son/wife, and not putting strings on that. Your expectations are again getting you in trouble.
Being polite to her, is not a 'reward" to her. It's just mature behavior. I don't know that I can explain it better.
he told me that every day was a great day -- because he woke up alive. He had another day with his W, and an opportunity to make a difference. He also said that it took more energy (for him) to be in a bad mood, rather than a good mood.
This is so key. My mom just had a birthday. She was focused on being upset about how old she is. "Oh, great, another birthday. I don't even want to think about it."
She *could* choose to think, "oh great! Another birthday! I got to be on this earth another year...to see my children and granddaughter grow older...to experience life! "
Happiness is a choice.
Hello MCS, Faith and Calibri.
Thanks MCS. I'm sorry your W is so negative about speaking with you. That must really hurt. Does it help you detach or make it harder? My W would love a friendly talk everyday I'm sure. It would be painful for me though and it is hard for me to understand how she can even ask me to talk. I guess, from her side, it's hard for her to understand why I would want her and our M back.
I doubt she has trouble understanding that. I think she has trouble understanding how you could have treated her the way you did inside the marriage and now are so upset that it's over.
I'm Not blaming you for the marriage problems (or at least not all of them).
I'm reminding you that you are not accurate in your mind reading. For her to have left the marriage and her son, means something important to HER, was missing. As long as you pretend it's only about a character flaw in HER< you'll get nowhere.
One other thing...your w has never brought OM to a basketball game. So it stuns me that you still have trouble being able to be in a large gymnasium to watch your son and not want his mom to also be there. I think this is literally the least you can do for HIM.
And To reiterate, It is not about her or you. It's only about HIM.
Calibri thank you for checking up on me. Yes faith can be a hard thing when you feel overwhelmed. I know exactly what I have to do with DB... confident, content, busy guy. I don't have to do it for long around W. Then I don't. If I had real faith... then I wouldn't be at all angry. I would just be naturally friendly with W.
Not sure what that means. But as long as you operate in anger or fear, you are Not operating in faith.
Hello Karma. Yes I don't want at all to be the bitter angry husband.
What will it take on your end, to avoid that? Remember, she's not the determining factor in how YOU behave or who you become. Only you are.
---
OK putting aside anger today. I'm going to see my son play basketball. That is my focus. Just act as if I'm having a good day and great life around W today. I will just observe any attempt my W makes to be friendly. I will have good PMA.
Onward.
2 TED Talks you could watch on Youtube may help with this. One is by Shawn Achor and the other is by Amy Cuddy. They both discuss the power of positive psychology and have empirical data to support it.
And they explain HOW to make yourself have a PMA...I highly recommend both and they are about 20 minutes long. Seriously HP, you'll get a lot out of them.
Being polite to her, is not a 'reward" to her. It's just mature behavior. I don't know that I can explain it better.
I think that ^^ explained it just about perfectly, 25.
Starsky
HP
Awhile back there was a man here named Denver2010 (or something close to that). He and his w separated and eventually they did reconcile, last I saw.
Anyhow, at one point Denver could NOT understand how his w would not return to the marriage. He had owned his significant role in the demise of the marriage and had made some big changes.
She had an OM, but Denver got past that due to his own issues. He felt that b/c he had finally made the changes she had long wanted, he could not wrap his brain around why she didn't just ditch the OM and come back.
Then another woman, a WAW, wrote to Denver.
See if you can imagine Your wife writing some or all or any of what this woman wrote to Denver...
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.
Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.
So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated - does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.
You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_________________________
HP
I'm sure there is a lot going on in your head at the moment but i just wanted to say that the advice and analysis 25 is giving you at the moment is potentially one of the greatest gifts you will ever recieve. If you can take that stuff on board, I mean really take it on board, I genuinely think your life as a whole will benefit.
You've come a long way already but there is always more to do
Onward HP
Awhile back there was a man here named Denver2010 (or something close to that). He and his w separated and eventually they did reconcile, last I saw.
Denver's threads were extremely active and filled with a tremendous amount of wisdom. He and his wife are doing well.
25, Happy, and Calibri. Thank you all again for sticking with me. I took the time today to learn the stages of grief. I see I am stuck on anger and my post there shows that and I am aware of it. I'm determined to get it in check.
I'm doing some work on myself in this area. Some letting go of anger exercises. Also ordered a book... "Solo Partner" that I heard about here. I'll also work through that book.
I did some practice on that today...
Picking up S12, he and I were not sure about the weekend schedule. S12 also thought W had a business trip. He called his mom while I checked the schedule online. While he was on the phone I saw I had him this weekend and told him.
W then immediately calls me. I take deep breath and answer. W asks why S12 asked about a business trip. I cordially told her what happened. She asked how he was and I said he's good. She said see you at the game and I said OK see you there. She said thank you for answering... I said OK... and hung up.
I almost immediately she texts I should know the schedule and it's not fair for Solomon to have to check. Instead of ignoring her text or getting into a discussion about it... I simply and promptly replied.... "Yes W I agree." She replied... "Thank you HP. I really appreciate that."
25 I have read your post many times. I am determined to overcome my anger, judgement, and revenge character flaws.
So tonight and every interaction to come I will be courteous to my W without expectations b/c it's the adult and right thing to do and b/c it helps my son.
So, to keep the road home, paved & smooth...
I show up only as a calm, confident, upbeat person.
I am polite like a co-worker or a customer to W.
I show W that S12's happiness in this sitch is my priority.
I consider things from W perspective using empathy.
I do all that above with no conditions and expectations on W no matter what.
This is me showing accepting the sitch and showing humility. Showing that I'm aware that I contributed to the pain she felt in our M and I'm soul searching and improving.
It's as simple as that.
I'm not dense... just hurt and vengeful and I'm sabotaging my efforts by not being thoughtful and present. My W expects me to act just as I'm acting and I can't afford to keep this up.
I have 3 hours to pull myself together so I can present the best me possible for my son tonight.
If I could just find a way to simply see W as a good person making painful choices and show mercy and understanding and put my pain aside not matter what she does or says.
How can I just do this?
Looks like you just did it. Keep doing it. Her responses to you are so closely connected to how you respond to her. Do you see that?
Put out into the world the energy you wish to receive back. Keep it up, HP!
Enjoy the game.
HP,
I show up only as a calm, confident, upbeat person.
How do you accomplish this?
I am polite like a co-worker or a customer to W.
What does politeness look like to you?
I show W that S12's happiness in this sitch is my priority.
In what ways can this be achieved?
I consider things from W perspective using empathy.
In your mind, what does empathy mean to you?
If I could just find a way to simply see W as a good person making painful choices and show mercy and understanding and put my pain aside not matter what she does or says.
How can I just do this?
Write out another list of her good qualities and focus on them. That will get you in a good frame of mind for the ball game.
Hey HP, first of all there are not much better hands than 25 years to be in so I encourage you to listen. Secondly, I want to emphasize to you one thing that occurs with most men on these boards. we make the situation our center!
What I mean by this is that instead of living our lives and having the problem in our marriage be a part of that life we instead view it as we have a problem in our marriage and therefore must change our life. It is a skewed and backwards approach to the situation. Remember you were an I before a we and you must focus on what it was about you as an "I" that drew your partner in.
Getting completely wrapped up in the "we" and why it is broken is very daunting and may simply never be understood. What I can tell you is that I am still friends with a ton of folks who went through this in the late 2000's and the theme among us is that we were so wrapped up in the we that we lost the I. A few have saved their marriages and several have not, sadly that is the reality. What we all have done however is find ourselves again and become a strong "I".
Your son will be a direct reflection of you, your focus on the R instead of yourself and him feed directly into his behaviors and depression. Stop managing his schedule and take control of it. Your kid should never worry about where they are staying or who will get them to an event. they are kids and should be taken care of and the anger is coming from a sense of helplessness and a loss of security in you and your wife.
Take charge HP, stop being a person in the middle of the circus and start being a guy who go's to see the show only when he chooses to. Your choices are directly affecting your son. Your IC will tell you that if they are worth a [censored] and you and your wife are being honest with them. 12 Years old is not an age where your child should be worrying about anything except for what he is eating for lunch and what girl he is crushing on.... That is the extent of what they should be dealing with. This needs to be your focus not your wife.
In the end you may become a single parent, but you will never stop being a dad. Put your priorities in order now and make that child your concern, not your wife.
Ian
HP,
I want to bring this to you as you didn't answer my questions from my earlier posts:
Then I called W. Asked her what she thought about S12. She talked for a long time. I did not say anything against anything she said and there was plenty I didn't like. I just let her talk.
I sense that you're deliberately leaving out the contents of what she said because you don't want to hear them or it contradicts your own narrative. Which is which, HP?
Hi Hp,
I could have written the message 25yrs just posted about the WAS talking about why she left.
My first husband had anger problems and for years I had tried to get him to go get help. It was one thing to have his anger amied at me but when it started towards our kids.... The final straw was when he came home one night and I was washing my hair in the kitchen sink. He couldn't find his keys. He was frustrated and angry so he threw the kitchen table knocking off one of the legs. Ironically it made me jump and my my wedding rings slipped off my finger and down the drain. My three yr old daughter was in the kitchen when it happened.. He could have unintentionally hurt her.
He did everything DB says not to do. He didn't give me space. He snooped through all of my things. He tried to lock me in the house. He sent me flowers constantly. He talked to everyone and anyone about me.
Trust me leaving with four kids aged 3-9 was not any easy choice. I was emotionally done and did not want my kids growing up thinking that behaving that way was acceptable. If he D busted would I have given him a second look? Probably. If I had seen over time changes that I TRUSTED were genuine and sincere then yes I think I would have.
Oh and one thing my first husband used to say was its my way or the highway.
He wasn't so happy when I took the highway
HP,
Not to add on to your long list of 1,000 things to do between CrossFit, helping with son's projects, going to ball games, playing with your SeaDoo (yeah...totally made that one up
), you might want to read
The Dance of Anger book.
Yes that's a good one. I agree with Wonka. You can do this.
HP
Awhile back there was a man here named Denver2010 (or something close to that). He and his w separated and eventually they did reconcile, last I saw.
Anyhow, at one point Denver could NOT understand how his w would not return to the marriage. He had owned his significant role in the demise of the marriage and had made some big changes.
She had an OM, but Denver got past that due to his own issues. He felt that b/c he had finally made the changes she had long wanted, he could not wrap his brain around why she didn't just ditch the OM and come back.
Then another woman, a WAW, wrote to Denver.
See if you can imagine Your wife writing some or all or any of what this woman wrote to Denver...
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET AND HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….
When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.
Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.
So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated - does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.
You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_________________________
Thank you for this 25. This makes it very clear for me. I have a long way to go for my W to feel like an M with me would be as good as the life she now feels hopeful for.
What I'm setting out to do tonight then... I just do it right and keep doing it every time I see her. Humble and calm myself and treat her like a W should be treated... with respect. That's all.
HP,
What I'm setting out to do tonight then... I just do it right and keep doing it every time I see her. Humble and calm myself and treat her like a W should be treated... with respect. That's all.
Yeah! This is exactly what we wish to convey to you without being buddy-buddy with W. You got this!
HP,
What 25 posted I have seen before. It was nice to read it again especially tonight.
I feel it hit you like it me and will help us both out. You more than myself because you still have contact with your W. Mine also doesn't live with me but I have extremely little contact with her.
I have hope for your Sitch and if you stay strong I think you will get the result you truly desire.
Wonka is correct You got this!!
Respect is a critical part of a relationship..
It is generated by quiet dignity, self confidence and common courtesy....
Thank you everyone again for your incredible advice and support. I'm back from the basketball game. I did do quiet dignity and self confidence and showed common courtesy at the game.
Shaved my head... trimmed the beard... ice cold shower... dressed nice.
Got to the game with S12 and my PMA. W was sitting at a table with her GF, the mom of another boy on the team.
Said a really warm hello to them both. W gave me a tense smile. Kept walking with S12 and his teammates to the gym. The boys were having a good time.
Found a seat on the bleachers. There was space next to me. Later heard Ws happy voice maybe a couple rows directly behind me. She sat with her mom friends. No problem.
Another nice mom sat next to me instead and talked pleasantly with me the entire game. That was nice. PMA remained high throughout.
My boy's team lost badly. The better players on the team hounded the ball. My boy had the ball passed to him one time and he bobbled it. He played good defense... but became very frustrated and stopped trying toward the end.
While I was talking with another father... I saw W rush by to get to S12. She was trying to console him but looked really irritated. He walked away from her.
She turned to me and said... "did you get my text."
"What about?"
"No one was passing him the ball!"
(I later saw she had texted me that during the game.)
And then she went on about that. The coach, the husband of her good friend, came up and she complained more to him. I did miss a chance to back her up there.
She collected a visibly sad S12 in an irritated huff and hurried out the gym. I followed. Got to the door, opened it for her and S12. She said thanks, see you boys later, and immediately hurried away into the night.
On our drive home, S12 started to complain about how terrible everything is. Then he sat very quiet and sad. I asked him to talk to me. He said no. I asked him if he wanted to talk to mom. He said no.
I pulled over and texted W... "He's very sad."
That's where I messed up. I should have just got him back to the condo and just talked man to man. IC told me I should tell W when S12 is having an issue b/c she's his mom and, if I tell her later, she'll be screaming why didn't you call me.
A minute later, W calls. I answer. She sounds tense. Not at all friendly. She says she tried to call S12 but no answer (he didn't bring his phone). She tells me to let her speak with him.
I say, "It's your mom."
He takes the phone and hangs up. Says... "I want to be alone."
Second mistake... I do not immediately and clearly tell him to not hang up on his mom.
She immediately calls back. I say... "He wants to be alone."
"I'm his mother! Put him on the phone!"
I give him the phone.
And she lectures him. Talks and talks and talks. At one point, S12 takes the phone from his ear and puts it in his lap. She keeps talking into air in her tense voice. He tries to explain how he's feeling and how he now dislikes basketball but she talks over him.
He says he'd rather be on a winning team than a team where everyone wins.
And she keeps talking.
Then he yells into the phone... "My team [censored]!" and hangs up again.
I talk to comfort him. It's just the first game and the team needs practice. It'll get better.
W calls again. "what happened?"
"He hung up on you."
Big mistake.
She tells me to give him the phone. I do.
And she starts screaming at him.
I take the phone and I calmly say... "W please stop screaming at S12."
She keeps screaming. I repeat myself.
She stops and apologizes in a very tense and still loud voice and says S12 can't hang up on me. I agree. She asks to apologize to S12. I give him the phone.
She starts talking again.
And he starts screaming at her.
"Shut up! Shut up! I can't call you my mom!"
I take the phone and calmly say say "S12's upset... you're upset. Let me get him to the condo to cool down and I'll call you later." I hang up.
We pull up to the condo and she calls again. I answer. She's still loud. Telling me to put S12 on the phone. I calmly repeat again let us get upstairs. Silence... then she hangs up on me.
On the elevator she calls again. I answer. She's calmer. She apologizes again for screaming at S12. That he should stay with me b/c she sees now that he hates her. That he feels that he can say shut up to her now b/c he must've seen me do it a thousand times (I've never said that to her ever but I understand she means I have been quietly angry with her around him.) That the heater is broken at her aunt's house and it's so cold there. (what!?!) She starts to cry. That this was not how this transition was supposed to go. That S12 and I have every right to hate her and be angry with her. That she's sorry again. She asks to please let her speak with S12 to apologize.
I'm really at my end. I stayed calm and strong through the whole thing. I would have never expected her to scream at her son who was already sad about everything.
I give him the phone. It seemed like they had a good talk.
In the condo, S12 brightens. He goes to take a shower. He reads his comics.
I think about W. How she must feel right now.
I text her... "Are you alright?"
After a long bit... "No"
Then after a long bit... "Sorry for yelling. I won't bother you or him tomorrow. Have a good night."
After a long bit I reply... "Good night W."
S12 is out of the shower and in good spirits on his computer. I think about W. I ask him to please say good night to his mom.
He calls on my phone. (His was dead.) She doesn't answer.
He calls again. I hear her answer. He says a nice good night. They talk. A good short talk.
I text her... "He's fine now. Are you better?"
"Yes thanks!" So no she's not.
"OK W. Take care."
"Means a lot to me that he called. Thanks." That was real.
"You're welcome W. Good night."
She doesn't reply.
....
S12 was hurting after the game. In our old life... my W would have warmly encouraged him and loved him and bought him some sour candy. I should have just done that for my boy myself. Lesson learned this time.
Again I wanted show W what was really happening. I sent one text. I knew she would call. I thought she would have warmly encouraged him. I did not expect all this but I made it happen. I showed my W too much disrespect in anger and now like father like son.
My fault.
Awhile back there was a man here named Denver2010 (or something close to that). He and his w separated and eventually they did reconcile, last I saw.
Anyhow, at one point Denver could NOT understand how his w would not return to the marriage. He had owned his significant role in the demise of the marriage and had made some big changes.
She had an OM, but Denver got past that due to his own issues. He felt that b/c he had finally made the changes she had long wanted, he could not wrap his brain around why she didn't just ditch the OM and come back.
Hello 25. I wanted to thank you again for pointing me to the Denver_2010 thread. I have started reading it from the beginning and do see similarities on how hostile his W was. She said many of the same things my W says... she gave her life to me but I never showed her she was the one. How she felt entitled to OM as I already made her feel single.
I'm learning a lot and will work harder to be more humble, not angry, more empathic and calm and caring.
Sounds like you did great with your PMA at the game, but sorry for the rough go afterwards. Glad your S was feeling more upbeat at the end of the night. Hang in there!
Great post from Jack_Three_Beans on the Denver_2010 thread that helps define LRT...
As the fantasy of her WAW plan comes crashing down, I am protecting her. But again, if I don't take some action to protect her, then I am the same a*s she left in the first place.
Tough choice and good point.
My on-line gaming addiction is what lead to my neglect of my wife. I ignored her.
Later when I LRTed, I ignored her as well.
How was it different?
On the surface? If you just look at the ignoring part...nothing.
But, I no longer played computer games. I worked out, when I was around her prior to the LRT I was as fun, and kind as I could be, I GALed, I proved I wanted her but did't need her, I showed her many of my changes.
When I LRTed, I took all of that away. All of it. I interacted strictly on a business level, regarding our boys and our bills.
I was not mean, I was not nice.
Previous to this, I ignored her because of my failing.
Afterwards, I ignored her because of hers.
In the middle I showed her that I had changed.
Make sense?
More excellent wisdom from the Denver_2010 thread...
THE TEMPTATION IN THE FACE OF COMPLETE REJECTION
It is that bargaining process between who you are. YOUR character. VS the EGO or self preservation.
Someone is doing things to you... so naturally you blame them and ask yourself why would I do this for them?
The tempatation is to leave the process...to leave your decision to stand. To leave or try to control your spouse. To attach outcomes to your decision to stand.
This is the step I was missing!
IMO standing is an essential part of the healing process of the LBS. You will constantly questions this throughout. At least I have up to this point.
You will ask yourself questions like "WTF am I doing this for this person?"
In the beginning we want answers.
Why did this happen?
How could they do this?
Who am I?
What do I believe in?
What do my vows mean to me?
Why do I hurt?
And the BIG ONE...
What is it about ME that made them leave?
IMO you don't get answers unless you choose to take the hard road, STAND, and go on the journey.
At first you tend to look at it as a quid pro quo- I am willing to do this for a while until I see some progress. IOW you do it EXPECTING some outcome ...
As time goes on and your expectations aren't met you question again...
It is all part to of the journey. You may even have trouble articulating why you are doing this to other people or yourself.
Then you start to look inside....
Then you start to see who YOU are...
Then you realize that this is part of YOU
What you have chosen is part of YOU and your character. So what began out of a search for answers for why and what is wrong with you. Out of hurt for what someone did to you...
You see it all has to do with who YOU are. The best part of who YOU are and then...
It is no longer about what THEY choose or why.
It is about YOU.
I have been trying to figure out what is the source of
my wanting to escape,
my anxiousness,
my dread
my fear.
And it is the WHAT IF?
the conditions I place on my life.
What IF W doesn't come back THEN?
What IF I stand and W doesn't want M THEN?
What IF I make this decision THEN What?
If I place conditions/exceptions to my life then I compromise my life.
When I took my vows did I mean: I will love you all the days of my life, BUT if you get so scared and lose your way then I won't?
It's those damn BUTs! I am stuck because of BUTs
I am paralyzed because of BUTs.
I know what I need to kill now.
When I get up with fear and anxiousness it's because of the fear of what may happen. I want to escape from that fear. The self doubt that creates it.
If you walk out into the world everyday with your truth then there is only...
What was (and you have learned from it)
What is (Your truth)
What is to come (through living your truth)
There is no regret.
No second guessing.
No doubt.
The only way to fail is to fail yourself.
Several of us, myself included, are moving through this journey and have encountered what I believe is a major sign post.
An essential step.
An understanding.
An awakening of sorts.
I am referring to that moment when one reconciles the dilemna of STANDING.
I have written already about the fact that as we begin this journey we decide to STAND.
We STAND because of what I will call BASE factors
We want our M back
We want our spouse to want us back
We want our spouse to see us as the more desirable option
We want to ease our own pain
We want our own self esteem back
We (may) want to punish spouse by appearing to be morally superior
We want ________ because we get _________ in return.
We STAND on these principles.
We communicate these principles and inevitably we meet with question and resistance.
From family, friends and
from ourselves.
Because it is hard for most people to imagine themselves making this decision.
It is a sacrifice of sorts at this stage.
We are looked on as victims of bad behavior, incongruent behavior to REAL LOVE.
So in that light we begin to feel like victims or that we are being taken advantage of in a sense and are perceived as such by the world. A DOORMAT if you will.
As time goes on and those who care about us begin to be more concerned about our mental and emotional health and question more emphatically why we choose to be a DOORMAT.
Or how long will you be a DOORMAT.
Then you begin to doubt yourself and your decision and the focus goes back to your beloved and now you look on them not with eyes of a scourned lover, a left behind, abandoned spouse, but with real scrutiny.
We begin to question why we would SACRIFICE our own happiness and endure such hardship to regain the love of a person who so obviously is not capable of the same for us or even anyone else.
It is then that the MIRACLE happens.
Through all the pain and seemingly fallow soil a sprout
of green punches through...
This growth is something new and it
is OURS, we planted it, we sowed it
For it is certain our seed was trampled upon many times before
it took root.
But it did take root and
it grows, upwardly reaching, toward the light.
The miracle is the love for yourself.
You are no longer the choices your spouse makes
You are no longer whether your M reconciles or not
You are no longer the failures you see in yourself
You are no longer a victim because only YOU can choose to be one.
Then you a FREE
Free to make the choice to STAND for YOURSELF.
This I believe can only be achieved through the decision to STAND in the first place.
Only through that decision can we experience the pain involved to know completely what it means to be free.
What is means to love.
What I am speaking of really is love.
This is a choice.
As we move through this journey it is a process of self discovery. The LBS starts out with a lot of hurt and pain and self doubt.
I have already written about this transition from standing out of wanting answers and pain- to doing it as a choice for you.
To get to this point you must have detached completely and also to get here some may decide to go black as you have suggested Time.
I did have to do that for a time.
The choice to love is really to put yourself at risk and we have suffered the greatest pain of that risk in the betrayal that was returned.
When I speak of the light going on and off I mean that those are the conditions. ANY conditions. ANY behaviors that we have let play out from our own fears and weaknesses. These are the things we find in OURSELVES that we want to change. That we MUST change to be who we want to be.
Who we want to be is the LIGHT I speak of. It must be constant and it must be consistent. It cannot be contingent on some suffering that cannot be endured. It cannot be contingent on some action or non-action of your spouse.
To love (as we know it) is to suffer until you see what love is. This is so much part of who I am that it cannot be separated.
Love is the absence of suffering. But that absence of suffering comes from your OWN choice not because:
your spouse decided to come back
or decided to be nice to you
Or wasn't mean to you
Or agreed with you
or stopped seeing OP
or ANY F@CKING THING.
It is YOUR choice
That is the light that shines.
That is the miracle of which I speak
If you can get to THAT place then you see that your spouse is on their journey and you love them enough to be committed to their growth.
That growth means you step out of the way. You completely let go with love.
If they call you.
Why would you not answer that call?
Only if you still suffer. If you suffer then you are not there yet.
My W will continue to suffer and be in pain. I will no longer be part of that. I choose rather to be part of the solution.
For me that means love of the most extraordinary variety.
For me that means to be the man I am now becoming.
HP,
On some level we all want things to be like they were so we try and create situations that will make those memories reoccur. You said yourself that wife used to comfort S12, that was then and this is now. You cannot force the reactions out of her nor have expectations that they will be the same as they always have been. You are simply setting yourself up for disappointment.
Figure out how to help your S12 on your own, does not sound to me like you are going to get a great deal of support in that and if she keeps yelling at him you will eventually have to step in and put yourself in a very bad position. If she decides at some point to change her attitude and understand that your S12 needs her to be a loving model instead of a $%@# that is on her.
Ian
Hello HP,
I am curious why everything needs to became a soap opera? You were in my thread and you read that I came to realize after so much soul search that there are hidden wounds in my core that made all the problems in my M even bigger.
What kind of work are you doing with your IC? Is there any work of the real reasons you get so angry? Is there wounds from childhood that you need to address? Is there a path lined up to treat the causes of WHY YOU DO NO LOVE YOURSELF?
I have been reading your posts and it's jumping out of all you write. 25 and Wonka are screaming help to you and yet it seems you just say you understand, but it is not sinking in.
It's not your wife that does not loves you, it's not your son that have issues. It is you, and you alone needs to resolve them.
You will need to do a very hard thing here. You need to come clean with your own feelings and be humble enough to face the issues why you do not love yourself.
Believe me, I have been in this position. Because I stop loving myself, everything else fell apart around me. You won't be able to change or even see things a little different if you do not work on deep issues inside yourself.
To do this you don't need to tell anyone, you do not need to show anyone. It's for your own good. You will stop being mean, critical, judgmental, punisher, etc.
You see what you are doing? Stop yourself and reflect. The whole issue after the game can be handled with maturity, yes the game socks, it was bad, they lost. Just have normal talk to your son: teach him to look for solutions instead of roaming around problems and depression.
Why you can't do or see it all? Because you need help... you need to get rid of all your wounds, and they are somewhere inside you. You are leading your son in this desperation. You need to stop and get serious help.
My issues were very big secrets inside me. The super spanking and the sexual abuse. Yes, I can talk about this now. But you don't want to know what happen when I told my IC the first time. He tough I was dying. It was the hardest thing I did. But I did it alone, for myself and in hope that I can treat myself to be a better person for the one's I love the most.
Start loving yourself, stop blaming everything else for the gaps you have inside your heart, your soul. It all B****t, the I will be graceful, understanding, cordial, I will be a great dad, I will talk to God. You are running in circles because you can't find your center core, you can't find yourself, you probably don't even know who you are at the moment.
Please HP, you know it't time to address those issues inside yourself. You need to come clean and everything will fall into place in your life. Stop hurting the ones you want to love. Stop pushing away the ones you want closer. YOU ARE DOING THIS... we can all see it, it is time you see it too.
If you want to come clean in these boards, fine. It helped me a lot... we do not have Real names here, we don't have a face and we have support, we have people that love us and want to help us free of anything, just for what it is.
Start helping yourself or your will destroy your R with your kid. Probably the most important person for you right now.
Don't use God for your R/M. If you believe, ask God to give you direction, wisdom, help to become better. Ask God to show you the path for a better you. Be humble and ask God to grab your hand and carry you for awhile. Did you ever wonder why someone wrote: "The Footprints on the sand"? Maybe right now, you can't see your own footprints...think about.
HELP YOURSELF AND IT WILL BE EASIER TO HANDLE WHATEVER CHALLENGE LIFE WILL BRING TO YOU.
I am not saying this just from out of the blue...I have been doing the work. Yes, I do not have a lot of GAL,and my H does not see me all the time super happy and uplifting. But I have a chance to be a better person and not fake my way through it.
I read Wonka, 25, Labug, and many other treads from folks that made it before me. There is a lot of wise advises. Open your mind for what you can learn, it will be for life.
IF YOU WANT IT, YOU CAN DO IT...THE HARD PART WILL BE TO MAKE A DECISION TO WANT TO BE HARD ON YOURSELF OR CONTINUOUS BEING A VICTIM WITHOUT HOPE.
You need to make that decision... What is gonna be HP?
We all love you and hope the best for you, but we can't do it for you, it is your path to walk.
Hugs,
Pink
Great post HP, I love Jack3's wisdom and Denver's humble lessons taught us all something.
Do I think my own h behaved wonderfully, or do I feel he "wronged" me back in those DB years?
1) I'm not really sure it matters, (the past has passed) and that's crucial to grasp. AND
2) so what if he did?
I'm not a victim.
I'm imperfect and so is he. IF he wronged me (and yeah, I'd say so) since I am not here to punish him, what is there to say or do?
Is he sorry? God, I think so.
But the ONLY reason that matters is b/c it tends to lessen the chances of it happening again. NOT b/c that means he has "paid the penalty".
I know I'll probably never understand how or why he chose to leave his family for a 'job", or lifestyle or adventure, or whatever he told himself then.
But Agreeing on the past is no longer vital to me; in fact I think it's impossible.
What matters is that we agree on our future. Going "From this day forward", like the marriage vows say. Brilliantly written, I now see.
"From this day forward" also means, eventually, letting go of today and the past.
You will not be able to hold onto your pain and anger AND reconcile with your w.
That ^^ is a fact.
Thought you might want to keep that in the back of your mind so when you have some time, maybe even on a daily basis at some point, you will need to turn that stuff over to God. IT's too much to carry and it sure does interfere with healing and reaching out.
Plus, you are not teaching your son the lessons you need to learn yourself AND that he also needs.
We know how you feel about your w's behavior. How'd you feel about your son's behavior?
You seem to know it is unacceptable and disrespectful. I'm wondering what you will do differently, the next time this type of situation arises.
Ironically, we had a basketball game for our youngest last night, and they too lost badly. And she barely got to play and she's a senior. But she seems happy anyhow. (She's changed.)
18 months ago (her sophomore year) she was taken from the JV team. There, she was captain and point guard, and the highest scorer, consistently scoring a minimum of 12-14 points per game. Sometimes she made as many as 28 in a game. She was moved up to Varsity b/c "she's so badly needed on Varsity!"
Now she's barely playing half a game on varsity, if that. Last night and the game before, she barely got the ball and was then told to pass it, and the team is mostly losing...last night she played well and deserved to play more but didn't. Oh well.
Thank God she loves her teammates. Otherwise I'm not sure what she'd want.
But Friendships and teamwork are huge lessons. Most importantly, perhaps, is that I believe she learns more about herself, others and life in general, from losing, than she learns from winning.
Maybe that's also true for your son?
Question: I believe your wife wants to be, and is, an advocate for your son. I totally get that.
But I am wondering what the debate with the coach accomplished. What was the goal there?
Was it to get your son to play more, or change strategies when he gets the ball, or what?
B/c It sounds as if your son played badly, and yet your w expected him to play more...so maybe your son was embarrassed on several levels having nothing to do with HER directly. Yet he took it out on her....hmm.
WHAT IF YOU & YOUR W WERE "TEAMMATES" SUPPORTING YOUR SON?
I put it in caps b/c I really want you to consider thinking like that for a bit...
and no, I don't mean to unite to argue with the coach.
We've never said anything to the coach except to ask if she's goofing off or showing a bad attitude, or to ask him how WE can better support HIS efforts at home, e.g. working on free throws, since we have a basketball hoop in the yard, etc.
He responds well to that, and she tends to play more when we ask, and perhaps more importantly, she plays better and feels our support and our unity, with her.
I know you so don't want to be part of the problem with the team, just part of the solution. (I'm 100% positive our d's coach does not enjoy losing.)
MAYBE asking about a solution and then working towards one, with the coach (AND your wife!!)
could create & demonstrate problem solving skills and conflict resolution skills you have not shown together, before.
Of course the "game" of basketball is not really what we want to talk about and it's not really THE Topic. But there are lessons in this, aren't there? And opportunities for change. And it's kind of a safer topic than the m itself...
So, perhaps you can give that some thought.
Back to earth....
FYI, we all fall on this path. We ALL fall down. People think I did DBing for 2-3 years. I didn't.
The first year I blundered and blustered and fumed and continually asked "WHY??? and "HOW CAN HE DO THIS???"
I cannot stand to go back and read my old posts b/c that annoys me so much now. SO that year doesn't count as DBing in my book.
The question of "WHY?" and "HOW CAN HE??" will not ever contain a "good" answer.
My DB coach also said questions that begin this ^^ way, are designed to make the recipient feel defensive. Boy was she right. I NEVER got a "good" answer from h, just anger or him fleeing faster.
Unless your wife has a benign brain tumor that explains all her choices and she gets cured and recovers and everything is perfect from now on, the only answers you MIGHT get, are painful.
Just work on you and your life and create a better future. The past has passed.
AND Keep on keeping on, on this marathon. Last night you stumbled on a hurdle but made it past some, too. Live and learn.
((( )))
25yearsmic, I haven't read back far enough yet to see what you are addressing... But I will say this, the wisdom in this response was just what I needed to read. Sorry to high jack the thread... But thank you!
Start loving yourself, stop blaming everything else for the gaps you have inside your heart, your soul. It all B****t, the I will be graceful, understanding, cordial, I will be a great dad, I will talk to God. You are running in circles because you can't find your center core, you can't find yourself, you probably don't even know who you are at the moment.
Please HP, you know it't time to address those issues inside yourself. You need to come clean and everything will fall into place in your life. Stop hurting the ones you want to love. Stop pushing away the ones you want closer. YOU ARE DOING THIS... we can all see it, it is time you see it too.
Hello Pink. Thank you so much for your amazingly thoughtful post. It is very kind of you to support me.
I'm going to read it a few more times to let it really sink in. You are right that I have work to do on myself. My IC will start on my anger next session. I'm also reading a lot and learning.
As for self love... yes I'm hurting there. I'm hard on myself and mostly feel great about myself when things are going great or I've done something great.
Last night I thought I did OK at the gym. I know W didn't come to speak to me likely b/c I act like and feel like I want nothing to do with her. I'm working to change that as much as I can while dark my being cordial and empathetic from now on. I thought I was doing that at the end of last night y asking how she was and asking S12 to say goodnight to her. I'm really committed to doing cordial and re-building the connection.
HP,
I did not say all this as a slap on your face. The situation you are going through right now is not easy at all.
I have moments I cry on my pillow. I have some serious talk to my kids when they started all negative and feeling angry with their dad. I told them flat, my problem is a M/R problem with your dad and you do not have any thing to do with that. As a matter of fact, I need to apologize that you are all going through this turmoil right now.
And I said, you are lucky to have a nice mom like me, and a nice dad as the one you have. Right now, we are not H and W but we are and will always be Mom and Dad, this will never change even if we go in different paths.
I do not allow my children to talk bad about their dad. As much as I want to explode, I control myself for not saying that I want to kill the dinosaur (H). When I am around the kids, it's not about me or my H, it's about them and who they will grow into to be the next parent, good friend, a part of society.
My H is all over the place, he comes one day and is telling me how much he loves me and how he can't forget me and live without me. Then he calls and wants to talk about D settlement. Finally I had the guts to meet him at a cafe and tell him straight that I had enough. I told him I do not deserve all this suffering and I want him to leave me alone and respect my space and time. If he is choosing to leave me so do it. I told him I have my three boys with me, I need to feed them, I need to support them in their teen crazy hormones ups and downs, I need to make sure all bills are paid including his, I need to be on top of all doctor/dentist/ortho appointments, I work every day, I go to church and I need to deal with my pain.
So I said very calmly and very respectful, for him to back off the turmoil that he is living right now and let it be. We will talk about the D, about the kids, but I can't handle he chasing me for his own good. We have communicate after that and I answer him polite, we do not argue and he knows I care for him, but he is not suppose to drive me crazy anymore.
It's hard to take that decision, but in the long run I think it is better for me and also for him. I will feel better, and work on my detaching. And he will now face the consequences of his own choices, while he was coming and going he did not stop to think what he is doing, now he will need to face it. Maybe he will start thinking that I was not the only problem he had, maybe not.
When I talked to my H, I did not asked him please. I said that this is what I need right now. And I need this because my children are more important then any R. I need to be in my right mind, with some peace inside me and be able to create a health environment for my sons. They did not ask for this problem, they are the victims of all this. So, I decide to respect them and raise them the best way I can.
Today, we are all home watching Patriots vs Ravens, sometimes the boys even tease me watching the game and trying to choose who could be my next husband. Today I chose Brady or Flacco.
All this don't come easy, this is the result of a decision to stand tall and have some healthy boundaries for your and your son's sake.
25 is giving you very good insights, we know you are getting there. It's hard, but with time it gets easier. It's even easier if you have a purpose. In a way, if the whole turmoil stops or slow down a little, then maybe your W will think about, maybe she will consider something, let her wonder who you are and are becoming. Surprise her once you become better and feel better. Don't forget... forgive and detach. I am doing it and it gets better, I promise.
Hugs to you and to your son.
Pink
HP,
Hallelujah!! My Pats are moving on.....phew!! Buh-bye to the Ravens.
Now on to your interactions. First of all, I want to note that you've improved a bit from your other interaction with W. I know it will take some time to shift your mindset to a more positive one....slowly, but surely. Knowing me, I usually dissect stuff with the goal of getting you to see things from another perspective. This time around, I am going to ask YOU to do this here. This is Coach Wonka turning over the post-interaction analysis to you.
If you were in my shoes, what would you see?
What would you do differently if you could go back in time like Harry Potter?
What certain things can you improve on?
Let's watch the game film together, ok? Sorry for the pun...there it goes.
More inspiration...
LBS creed - I can handle anything thrown my way. I am responsible for my actions, thoughts and happiness. I will respect my WAS and let their problems be their problems. I am fun, confident, interesting and capable. I am attractive. I am interested in others well being. I choose to thrive regardless of my circumstance. I am a warrior.
I just read this whole thread. Pink, 25yrsmlc, and wonka have given great advice. I loved the old posts from Denver.
HP, stick with this. Work on yourself more. I think it is a great investment of efforts. All else will fall into place. Be good to yourself and your son.
Hello everyone. I know I have a lot of homework and questions to do from previous posts. I promise to get to them as they are very important to my progress.
I kind of took the day off today. I spent a lot of time reading the Denver_2010 thread. I highly recommend it to us dealing with WAW in As.
Here's the full thread list...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...rted&page=4It is full of incredible wisdom, a screaming angry WAW, horrible fights, breaking and entering, confronting OM sitting on the toilet, U2, protecting a child from the sitch and more.
And it's a success story over one year long.
Reading it has helped me refocus on all the literally $1,000,000 advice I've been blessed to get here.
The thread shows everything I've been through... from initial denial, dealing with anger, confrontations, the difference between punishment and boundaries, acting as if, standing up to spew, everything. And then it shows how doing all that turned out for Denver.
Very very educational to see how advice from the vets here worked out over the long term.
So I'm going to sleep on all this and come back tomorrow rededicated to living life instead of living this sitch 24 hours a day.
As for W... she promised to not bother me and S12 today after her meltdown last night.
So, naturally... first thing this morning text from W. She asks to spend lunch and the afternoon tomorrow with S12. Tomorrow, Sunday, is my day.
I am doing a 180... being really prompt and extremely polite with communications. I understand that my being polite can influence her to be more polite.
I respond... "Good morning W."
Then I wait.
"Hi there. How is S12?"
"He's in good spirits. How are you?"
"I am good. And you? Happy to hear he is well."
"I'm fine thanks. S12 said he'd think about Sunday. I'm fine with it."
"ok. Thanks. Just let me know."
I then mention the broken heater at her aunt's house. If they we're OK.
She says "We are fine. Lot's of space heaters. Should be fixed today. Thanks for asking."
Then maybe I pushed it.
I say... "OK good. Have a good day then. I know last night was very hard. If you want to talk I'll listen."
Reply... "Yes I think talking will be good. I will text you later and we can talk." (She never did.)
She then asks if I have any plans for spring break. She offers to help with that. We have not talked about spring break since November.
I say... "How would you feel if S12 and I took a trip to X?"
While she was gaslighting me, she was planning a family trip for all of us (as she always did). Now, I'm going to plan it myself and go with S12.
After a long bit she says... "Not a problem. He would love it."
I say "thank you. Have a good day."
She says "You too."
So... I am committed to letting go of my little boy anger and just getting on with moving on. I'm still in early days and there's no chance for R unless I really become better me now today.
So... only cordial, confident, upbeat, on the move HP from now on. I will radiate an attractive positive energy no matter what.
I may even do some new clothes shopping tomorrow to kick that off.
In a good mood. Even positive about my R.
Onwards.
Hi Sunshine,
Great quote to live for. Make copies of it and stick on the places that you can remind yourself. I did something similar to when I stop smoking.
A reminder why I need to change a habit. It helps and it goes inside you bit by bit. The road is long and with rocks and holes in the way, but with determination and a vision to a better place you can accomplish step by step, one day at time, a second at a time.
HP, tears of pain will roll down your face, a bitter taste of disillusion will touch your soul, a hurt that makes you itch will burn your skin, a circle of uncertainties will haunt you at day and night, a desire to be out of yourself with follow your steps. That's when you give it all to God, a higher power that can guide us, comfort us, carry us in times of storm.
In every time the desperation settles in, ask him for help, he will listen to you, he loves you more then you love yourself. You will feel strong, you will see a light that will make you smile even when it hurts the most. It is a good taste, it is a good feeling. And I AM SURE YOU WILL DO IT...
We believe in you so much... you are a good person, you are trying hard and will succeed. It's a step by step process, give yourself time and you will see the transformation.
Now, go do Wonka's home work, I will use those for myself too. As I am also learning along with you. Believe me, it's the hardest thing I ever did, but I know I can, I know I will fall sometimes and will stand up again, an again. WE CAN DO IT!!!
Lots of hugs to you and your son,
Pink
Oh HP your son is crying out. He needs your to be his rock. You have gotten great advice here. Listen to it. Life if short. You hold the key to your happiness and future. Plan a bucket list for you and your son.
You cannot keep blaming your wife for your unhappiness. I'm sure she gave you many waring signs that she was frustrated and unhappy. Be the best man you can be. If it's not her then in time you will find love again.
It's ok to be on your own.
Cheers
Oh HP your son is crying out. He needs your to be his rock. You have gotten great advice here. Listen to it. Life if short. You hold the key to your happiness and future. Plan a bucket list for you and your son.
You cannot keep blaming your wife for your unhappiness. I'm sure she gave you many waring signs that she was frustrated and unhappy. Be the best man you can be. If it's not her then in time you will find love again.
It's ok to be on your own.
Cheers
Thank you Karma for you nice post. I was about to type "I'm trying to be my boy's rock," but I'm choosing to stop trying and just doing it everyday.
So today I am his rock. We'll go out for breakfast and have a good time. Then his mom will be by later to take him to his friends house.
I'll plan a menu for this week and go grocery shopping. I'll also buy some new clothes.
Than I'll cook and watch some football.
I have not bought alcohol for a little bit. I thought it might be nice to enjoy some this evening watching the game. I don't think I need that though.
Instead of alcohol, noticed I've been eating junk food and soda. I have put back on some weight. I will get back on my eating discipline.
Also I slept very late today. Again that's no good for my PMA as I think about my W and my hurt lying in bed.
I thought about how my W is very angry with me. There is a terrible argument documented in the Denver thread where the angry W says many of the things I've heard from my angry W. It is here...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2157757#Post2157757It's good reading to understand how your angry W may be thinking.
It got me thinking of the long road I have if I'm to show my W I'm the best choice for her after 7 years of taking her for granted. Denver also took his W for granted for 7 years and treated her terribly.
After that argument, it was another year until Denver's W moved home.
I just had my argument like with with my W 2 weeks ago.
Even though she looks miserable and cries and seems to be struggling to start her new life... it's not enough for her to even think about coming back.
So I choose to finally get serious about consistently being better me.
My goal today is to keep it up all day.
Off to breakfast at the diner.
Thanks for sharing the Denver thread. I just read the one above. It was inspiring, especially knowing it ends in R. One an tell through the whole argument that they both want the M. She mentions she wasn't done thinking and even hints she was leaning towards him, etc. He repeats he didn't want that but OM changed everything, etc. Sounds like his dropping of the rope made her realize what she'd be missing.
It made me reflect on my own sitch, of course. I don't feel much of this reciprocal desire to fix things if it weren't so messed up, as in Denver's. My W is more "Oh well, it didn't work out. But all is good now, let's be friends."
I'm glad you're having an attitude adjustment, for your own good. I was reflecting on your tone recently and to me it comes across as martyrdom. "I'm right, she's wrong, but I'm such a martyr for the good cause, I'll take it all. She's crazy, I'm reasonable." I think it would do you good, it would make it easier on you to see her as less crazy and you as less righteous. Personally, I reflect often on how I drove my M where it is and it makes me much more tolerant of my W's behavior. Part of it is payback after all. She suffered and now it's my turn. If I didn't give her all that suffering, maybe she wouldn't be giving it back to me.
Looking forward to how things go for you from now on. It's an interesting experiment.
Working on forgiveness now...
Here's a story that helps me when I have a harder than usual time forgiving, which is a lot...
One day the entire world heard God's voice say, "The World will end in 7 Days". It was surreal but the entire world heard it. Some scoffed. But the next day everyone heard it again, "The World Will End in 6 Days." This time people panicked. Some went nuts, others cried, and they asked their governments what to do. Then people noticed that the sins of each person began to show on their faces. Envious people started to have green faces. Adulterers had "A"s on their foreheads...those who spoke badly of others or spoke with biting words, started to have disfigured mouths...Days were passing. The rich gave away ALL their fortunes but still they heard God's voice say "THe World will End in 3 Days." Families huddled together and hid, or blamed, and nations wondered if there was some trick to this, or if they should work together to solve the problem. Still they heard the voice each day, counting off to Doomsday. Everywhere people prayed and fought about which religion was "right". Some flagellated themselves and others fasted or chanted. Some got drunk.
The last day on earth, a married couple held each other as they looked out their window, facing their last day on earth. The h had an "A" on his forehead and his wife was green with jealousy and her mouth had sores around it from her biting words and resentments. Finally the h looked at his w and said, "You're the only woman I ever really loved and I'm so sorry I hurt you. Can you forgive me?" The wife said, "Oh I do forgive you, and can you forgive me for all those things I said, before and after?" And the husband nodded and they held each other. Suddenly, the "A" from the h's forehead disappeared, and the wife's complexion became natural and beautiful and her mouth totally healed....and word spread through out the land and the entire world, quickly. People ran out to those they'd resented, and forgave them. Husbands and wives came together, brothers reached out to their estranged brothers, friends who'd become enemies called out to the others, nations wiped their slates clean...and a Voice was Heard speaking to the world saying "You are forgiven."
And the world was saved by forgiveness.
Thought I'd pass that on. And re-read it to myself a lot.
j-
HP,
I want to share with you and others about my journey to forgiveness. In my experience, forgiveness wasn't a linear process where one says "I forgive you" and then B happens. Then you are on the B square, then viola! You've moved to the C square. It didn't happen to me.
Intellectually, I forgave Ms. Wonka for the hurt she inflicted on me. Emotionally was a whole different ball of wax. Whenever I thought of some negative or painful action/words from Ms. Wonka, my wounds came to the surface and I picked at those scabs re-wounding myself. Then I'd get into a tailspin of resentment and going over 'what-ifs' that didn't serve me well at all.
You need to understand that it took me YEARS to get to the place of true forgiveness. I worked very hard to chip away at my own emotional unforgiveness toward Ms. Wonka. What was interesting was that the inability to forgive is very closely intertwined with anger. I somehow stumbled into this internal discovery after sitting on the discomfort sofa a few times asking myself why I'm feeling those uncomfortable emotions. From that new perspective, I tackled my own quiet, simmering anger under the surface and asked Teacher Anger what it was trying to show me.
As I worked through the anger, forgiveness started to fall in place and then I found my friend Indifference. Viola! I've arrived. Interestingly, when I reached that place of forgiveness, I finally sat down and composed an apology letter to Ms. Wonka (with the help of my wonderful friends over in the MLC forum and Bets). From that point and on, things shifted between the two of us. What ensured was pretty deep convos for the first two weeks after the letter was sent. The most communication ever in nearly 10 years.
The whole point of this is:
Don't be too hard on yourself in getting to the Forgiveness Square at a certain time. There's no fixed timeline. It is a process that one needs to work at diligently to FREE themselves of the bondage of anger and resentment. For me, it was a very hard road to travel on, but so so worth it!
(((HP)))
Treat yourself gently, my friend.
Good post, Wonka, thanks for sharing.
Working to stop operating from a place of anger and fear...
Was it a tactical error? I don't know. I ultimately decided that nothing I proactively did regarding acknowledging the day was going to hurt my situation, but that NOT doing something COULD actually cause damage (W may have interpreted as me being the old Denver).
So that's why I ended up sending the text.
Denver,
First......That might have been the single longest post I have ever seen!!! hahahaha You may have de-throned "Epic-Eric" as the de-facto king of long posts laugh (that is not to say that I can't post some long ones myself).
Okay, down to business..........
Your operating from a place of fear......it is normal. I know because of what you posted right up there. You basically said it in bold......
you were afraid that your W would make some sort of interpretation.....
Another way to look at the statement up there is to try to take out the "but" and make it sound the same as you originally intended........
The "BUTS" will get you everytime........
It really highlights when YOU are trying to justify something that you know is wrong or when you are saying something but don't really believe what it is you are saying.......
Think about it.........
Take a scenario where you are trying to apologize to someone for something you did or said to them. Often we really blame them for what we did instead of really "Owning our words/actions"
Therefore, we say......
"I'm sorry......BUT you made me do it."
translate....
"I'm sorry......BUT not really." smile
Soooooo......
Until you deal with that fear of how your W may or may not interpret something you do or say.......
you really are not in a position to interact with her........you will eff up the sitch.
Clearly the debate going on in your thread is passionate and thought provoking.....
I am going to tell you that IMO both sides are correct.....
(how was that for being diplomatic laugh )
25 is trying to get you to deal with the internal demons that plague you and me and anyone else that is here and has been betrayed........that anger beast is a real b!tch.
You never really get rid of it.....and you shouldn't it is part of who you are........it is part of who I am.
You take my cheerio's away from me, I am going to get mad/angry.
It is how we deal with it and ultimately react to it that determines how others view us and interact with us.
25 is imploring you to see past your pain and focus on how your W is feeling. How she could get to a place where she could leave the marriage and cheat.
Now to be clear......There is nothing you did that caused her to cheat.......that was her decision and she will have to own that, and more importantly YOU HAVE TO LET YOUR W deal with it on her own..........and she will in TIME. (It will be very hard on her.)
This is what 25 is saying.....that you actually have to have some compassion for her in order for your heart to be in the right place to do what you need to do.
Now, you very much need to stop engaging as some of us are imploring you to do.......
However
you need to do it from a loving and compassionate place.
Hard to do.
I will continue to push you to do the right thing until your heart is in the right place to do something different.
As long as you are operating from a place of fear, and make no mistake......YOU ARE............you have not adequately dealt with the underlying issues that re-inforce that fear.
One of those issues is ANGER.
When SBH, Starsky, Faith and anyone else that advocates an action that might come off as punitive or retaliatory, it is mistaken as being anger that has not been dealt with adequately.
Here is the problem.........YOU definitely NEED to take the actions that are being suggested......
however if you have not dealt with your pain and the very valid emotions that come with your pain then your actions will wreak of ANGER.
This is really where I come down in the middle.......
You need to pull back because you are really not ready to deal with her "in-decision" yet. Now there is the added benefit that by pulling back you might actually attract your W back.....ie the dance of the pursuer and distancer.
I think that this is where we all start to disagree......it is not that we neccessarily disagree with the course of action it is that we disagree with the motivation behind the action.
Some here are trying to motivate you from a place of pride and self respect........nothing wrong with self respect and pride IF you have done the hard internal work to deal with YOUR PAIN and ANGER and it has really become part of who you are.........part of your "skin" so to speak. (nickel to Mach).
Denver, I can tell you that while you might have identified some things that you need to work on or are working on.......your words here tell some of us (ON BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE) that you still have some strides to make.
BTW.....these strides are not meassured by how much your W is being nice to you or is doing things with you or anything to do with your wife.
GET IT??????
I can tell you that even after you have done the work you never are ever really done.......I can tell you that some of the most thoughtful, introspective and loving MEN here on these boards still struggle to keep their motivations pure and true.
Their actions remain the same, hopefully those actions are motivated by Love.......however Anger can creep back in sometimes and it has to be dealt with again, but we learn as we go........
I will repeat the drum beat........
Stop engaging your W, close FB, drop the timelines, focus on Denver.........
Your W will be in the same place YOU left her..........
She definitely has some of her own shat to deal with.
Cheers
Oh, BTW........Happy Little Friday!!!
What is
the hard internal work to deal with YOUR PAIN and ANGER? How do I do that work? By just accepting the sitch and my part in causing it?
HP,
You ask good questions.
What is the hard internal work to deal with YOUR PAIN and ANGER?
Where/What is causing you pain?
What is making you feel angry?
How do I do that work?
What would that look like to YOU?
What do you hope to achieve from that standpoint?
By just accepting the sitch and my part in causing it?
Nobody can make you angry or feel pain except your own thoughts that drive your emotions which then effect your actions. You are 100% percent responsible for your own thoughts.
What kind of man do you want to be?
What kind of father do you want to be?
What are your core values?
Not all pain and anger is equal to each person. How one responds to and handles the pain and anger is very individualistic. One thing you want to be mindful is that the longer you stay in the anger whirlpool, it keeps you stuck instead of expanding outward from a place of true understanding and radical acceptance.
I don't mean to depress anyone and I really don't where to post this, so I pray it is acceptable to HP that I do it here. I am having a very difficult time today, so maybe It will help if I try to write. I am grieving very deeply over the passing of a loved one. The years of one's life has been reduced to a few boxes to be stored away. Will anyone ever look at it again? IDK, I just know I can't throw it away. Not yet, maybe never. The memories........are so sweet and yet painful as I know all my chances to share with that one person are gone forever. I should have done more, should have been better. Why do we live as though we have forever? Time was so short, so precious, and so much of it was wasted.
I have learned anger has many faces. Rage, smoldering, resentment, bitterness, jealousy, judgement, vindictiveness, disappointment, and so much more. We choose to not forgive b/c we don't want to let go of the anger. Why would we ever want to cling to something that makes us so ugly within? Forgiveness has nothing to do with the other person and everything to do with us. It has nothing to do with them deserving or earning our pitiful forgiveness to them. Forgiveness is based on who and what we are as a person, not them.
As I search my heart today, I believe I have forgiven every person who ever did me wrong. Yet, I struggle to forgive myself for the pain I have caused my loved one who is gone. The disappointment and absolute horror of my actions will forever be my shame to bear. The disgrace I brought on the memory of those who raised me, and to those who loved me as best they could. How do I ever make it right? I can't.
Today my pain is so great. I want to gather all my cherished family and hold them so tight. I want to tell the world to stop this craziness and just love each other while they have the time. But I know this is part of the grieving I must do. It is a process.......much like forgiveness. Sometimes we can't just make the decision and it's done. We have to work on it a little more each day. Maybe someday I will even be able to forgive myself. Strange, b/c I thought I had, until this happened. Regret.........for anyone who reads this, please don't live in regret. Life is so short.
Tomorrow I will move forward a little more. That is all we can do. Don't stop growing and loving, and giving of ourselves. Make each day count, a sweet memory without regret.
Thank you Wonka. Your questions are very valuable and I'll answer them here.
I've been thinking and learning along the lines of your questions this entire weekend. I'm a little overwhelmed while at the same time thinking I'm making this more complicated than it needs to be.
So I'm tired. Tired of doing what isn't working. I know something's working when I'm feeling happy and energetic and I'm choosing the thoughts and actions that feed my happiness. It's a conscious thing.
So...
What is causing me pain?
My focus on my W. Simple as that.
What is making you feel angry?
My focus on my W not meeting my expectations.
What would doing the work look like to me?
Slowing down... examining my thoughts... questioning if a thought supports my R goals... refocusing on the one thought that works... "I love myself".... asking "If I love myself, what would I do?"... doing it... repeat.
What do you hope to achieve from that standpoint?
Happiness and satisfaction at the end of the day that I moved closer to my 6 month goals.
What kind of man do you want to be?
I want to be a centered, fun, relaxed, motivated, comfortable, purposeful, and secure man.
What kind of father do you want to be?
A father that is an example to his son so he can achieve the above.
What are your core values?
Poise, Enjoyment, Relaxation, Fidelity, Fitness, Discipline, Playfulness, Gratitude.
Now I just get on with it.
Sandi,
All of our thoughts are with you today. I probably speak for many that your insight and guidance here is a gift to us all. Also, we are humbled that you choose to come to these boards to express your grief. I lost my younger sister suddenly a few years ago. We could have had a must closer relationship, but we didn't. I regret that and probably felt similar to how you feel today. Everyday, I feel some solace in looking back through how she lived her life and use that to guide my future. I hope that you can find some comfort today. You and your family are in my prayers.
I don't mean to depress anyone and I really don't where to post this, so I pray it is acceptable to HP that I do it here. I am having a very difficult time today, so maybe It will help if I try to write. I am grieving very deeply over the passing of a loved one. The years of one's life has been reduced to a few boxes to be stored away. Will anyone ever look at it again? IDK, I just know I can't throw it away. Not yet, maybe never. The memories........are so sweet and yet painful as I know all my chances to share with that one person are gone forever. I should have done more, should have been better. Why do we live as though we have forever? Time was so short, so precious, and so much of it was wasted.
I have learned anger has many faces. Rage, smoldering, resentment, bitterness, jealousy, judgement, vindictiveness, disappointment, and so much more. We choose to not forgive b/c we don't want to let go of the anger. Why would we ever want to cling to something that makes us so ugly within? Forgiveness has nothing to do with the other person and everything to do with us. It has nothing to do with them deserving or earning our pitiful forgiveness to them. Forgiveness is based on who and what we are as a person, not them.
As I search my heart today, I believe I have forgiven every person who ever did me wrong. Yet, I struggle to forgive myself for the pain I have caused my loved one who is gone. The disappointment and absolute horror of my actions will forever be my shame to bear. The disgrace I brought on the memory of those who raised me, and to those who loved me as best they could. How do I ever make it right? I can't.
Today my pain is so great. I want to gather all my cherished family and hold them so tight. I want to tell the world to stop this craziness and just love each other while they have the time. But I know this is part of the grieving I must do. It is a process.......much like forgiveness. Sometimes we can't just make the decision and it's done. We have to work on it a little more each day. Maybe someday I will even be able to forgive myself. Strange, b/c I thought I had, until this happened. Regret.........for anyone who reads this, please don't live in regret. Life is so short.
Tomorrow I will move forward a little more. That is all we can do. Don't stop growing and loving, and giving of ourselves. Make each day count, a sweet memory without regret.
Sandi... I am so sorry for your loss. Thank you for opening up about your feelings, your loved one, forgiveness, and anger here. These painful things you help us deal with here... we forget life is so short. I don't know what to say.
(((Sandi)))
I hope you found some comfort. what you've written was very poignant and moving. Life is short and its is important we make the best of what we have.
Sandi, you support so many people on these boards with your wisdom and advice. I have no idea how many people you have helped save and how many marriages for that matter but the number is many and i'm sure each one greatly appreciates the time you've given them (I certainly do).
the past cant be changed but we can always try to make amends and honour those we love and who care for us by what we do, and the good you do here honours everyone who cares about you.
I'm very sorry for your loss
Take care
As Jim said Sandi you have helped us all at some time, we, all of us I think I can say, send our thoughts and wishes to you now.
I've lost close family, young, I know exactly what you meant and you put it so, so well.
Take care
Edz
Sandi
Those who we love and who love us move with the joy of connection.
No matter the pain and disappointment that which is love endures beyond grief and pain. The highest power within us binds us even if we disappoint or harm. love is all above everything it releases anger, grief and pain.
Please know that if you love that even in loss and pain that love is all. I would have you comforted that your love reaches through sorrow and the disappointment you show for yourself. That love within you can heal your sorrow as much as it exchanges with those that you believe you harmed and who have passed beyond this world. As they loved you then that love transcends. Love is greater than disappointment and those that love would have nothing of shame, they would only look to release. Those who love would prefer the release of shame, they would want their beloved to live free and in the sun, to glory for the love within them. To reflect back all that is given with joy.
Sandi I would give you peace and love above all to fill your heart and replace that bitter loss with tenderness of feeling.
Prayers for a brave lady
Vanilla
Sandi. So sorry for your loss.
(((Sandi)))
Thank you for sharing some thoughtful insights, girlfriend. Sorry for your loss. Yeah, hug your children closer to you.
Sandi,
So sorry for your loss. Life is so precious. Love knows no boundaries. Your loved one left this world loved. What a gift. Sending you big hugs. Prayers to you and your family.
Sandi2
Bless you my dear DB friend. I feel as if we know each other in the "real world" b/c in some ways DB is the most real place we live.
*May you find comfort in the knowledge that your loved one now rests in the arms of a loving God,
and that even now, you can reach out to your loved one, through time & space, to share & give love to them, and they shall feel it.
For love has no boundaries and knows of no such restrictions.
((( sandi !!! )))
so sorry for your loss sandi. praying for you and your family!