Part 1 - Initial disappearance and NC from beginning by W, unsure of why W left, found out about OM, one weekend of talking about reconciling, then NC from W, initiate mediation
I thought everything was okay Part 2 - Continued NC from W, further distance from W about kids, MCS figures out judgmental tendencies, W finally comes gets her things, stress over communication about kids
I thought everything was okay...(Part 2) Things I'm working on.
Detach, detach, detach
GAL outside of doing fun things alone
Figure out how to communicate with Kids
STFU about some of her decisions
Try to keep open mind of small changes in sitch
So, when we last left me; I'm struggling with any communication with the W about co-parenting....namely schedule. W throws idea over the fence and when I don't agree, she shuts down from talking to me. Trying to figure out how to at least get a little communication going outside of Counseling (mediation,) seems MC is trying to do the same thing. Suggesting different ways to establish more communication. Also suggested to have kids come in to see him. I just need to let the MC try and work it out, I guess. Problem is the schedule is one of the final things that I think W is using to put me as the cause of her unhappiness, IDK.
I'm unsure why W seems to appear so threatened by me. I have not been anything but cordial, to no avail. I have been more firm on boundaries and making W responsible for decisions she's made (no Mr. Nice Guy)
___________________
So, something is up today with my detachment. I'm not sure what it was, but I'm feeling a whole lot more detached today.
I don't know if it was talking with W at counseling (mediation) yesterday made me realize how far Wayward she is right now. It's like I've never met this person before. I don't know if its how strangely she is acting or the fact that she totally trivialized anything that the kids said to her about the sitch. Which infuriates me....
W: "They are just trying to use asking me to come home to get what they want for other things"
W: "The only reason that they say to you that they want me to come back is because I did everything for them before"
The she used my pet peeve phrase "Kids are resilient" I can't stand that. Someone on here said how WAS use it to justify doing things w/o taking the kids emotions into account.
Well, S5 comes home yesterday with a drawing for mom that has MCS, W, S5, D4 and Dog; with a big roof over all of us. Says, this is for mom to show her that we are all together.
Anyway, enough of that. I found myself in a good mood today and not checking DB forums at all during work. Also, had a meeting at work that I totally made into a fun, laid back, joking meeting for my team. Its been a stressful time at work and I and they needed to not take ourselves too seriously today.
Well, PMA a little lower than Yesterday, but still doing somewhat okay. It's much better than the holiday time off of work. Kids go back to her tomorrow, and that's where the PMA takes a dive. Totally need GAL time, been doing improvements around the house, but need to figure out something to interact with others.
Still trying to figure this communications thing out talking about the kids. IDK, it's been 5 months and she still won't really talk to me. I'm wondering if changing tactics would work. Basically, I'm being somewhat passive-agressive with the schedule thing, because of my trust issues with her. I just don't feel comfortable right now with the kids and her...but I don't feel like I can say anything about that because our communication is so bad. I just think it will set us back.
Glad you are in a better mood and feeling more detached. Quite honestly, I agree and completely understand what you mean when you say you don't check DB forums as much. Sometimes I find that the worse mood I am in, the more I am on this site and though it is extremely useful and helpful, sometimes you just need a break from reading all this stuff, so good for you.
Sorry I don't have more to say RE: kids, I don't have any and don't feel like anything Id say would be particularly beneficial, but just letting you know I'm here and following your sitch. I hope you and W have worked out something regarding co-parenting.
Thanks for checking in. been over reading your stuff. It's so crazy how you can read so many stories and they all have such common themes and progressions. It helps comfort me that our M crisis is not unique and it's hard to imagine that so many others are struggling with the same thing. It's like a giant support group.
Hey MCS. Thank you for your very supportive posts tonight. I agree communication is good. Honestly, though... in my case I might consider 5 weeks of solid NC from my W.
It seems the mediation meeting then is your only chance. Do you act as if your moving on or do you look and act like you're wanting to talk?
It would seem like the acting detached and distracted b/c your life is awesome... maybe like you have a new GF... is he way to be right? Like you're barely paying attention to her while you're agreeable and understanding when she talks.
Good luck. Just keep going.
HP,
No problem, I've been reading your thread for the last month or so. You've been doing great, I can definitely see your progress.
Yeah, I guess it's been a struggle. She knows me well enough (I even said it right before she left, but before I knew about OM) that I'm in this for the long haul.
Mind reading, but I'm at the point that I think if I push the 'move on' too much right now, she's so guilt ridden (especially because it seems the A is over) and she seems too timid and her self esteem seems so low, that she would be okay with that happening, because she could tell everyone that I gave up. Justifying she did the right thing with her thinking that I would have left when I found out the A anyway. She told me she never felt she lived up to my expectations and I always was in "control." So me seeming to be that way by moving on and not a little vulenerable, that it wouldn't be showing a 180 that I've tried to do.
I'm trying to work a careful line of trying to participate and connect with her enough to make her feel 'comfortable' talking with me because of the kids.
But, I've also said to her "this is your decision, you asked me to move on and I'm listening to you and that's what I'm doing"
My demeanor has been calm, collected and confident. Since all of our talk is about logistics of S, I've been factual and logical. However, I think this also counteracts some of her comfort with me, because me being this way could also be viewed as intimidating and trying to be in control of the sitch. Especially if she is feeling very unsure of herself and me. IDK
She told me she never felt she lived up to my expectations and I always was in "control." So me seeming to be that way by moving on and not a little vulenerable, that it wouldn't be showing a 180 that I've tried to do.
I can definitely relate to this statement. What have you done to try showing a little vulnerability?
My demeanor has been calm, collected and confident. Since all of our talk is about logistics of S, I've been factual and logical. However, I think this also counteracts some of her comfort with me, because me being this way could also be viewed as intimidating and trying to be in control of the sitch. Especially if she is feeling very unsure of herself and me. IDK
You are acting the right way as far as your demeanor. You cant control how she feels. As long as you are light and friendly enough when you interact with her, how she feels is up to her. My only suggestion would be to ask and incorporate her ideas/suggestions when it comes to logistics of S. Just ask her what she thinks and listen to her, dont dismiss it. This may help lower her guard because it is no longer MCS dictating facts and logic to her, but MCS asking her what she feels is fair.
Hello MCS. Don't assume all those things about her self esteem and guilt. Mind reading. Reading sitches here and from my experience.... the WAW works hard to show you what is useful for her to show. All you know is she doesn't want to contact you. You know how to act with DB... confident and calm and content. Just keep doing that.
I'm learning you can't be afraid to push your W away if you're doing what you know to do. Trust the process and work on how you act under stress. I'll work on doing the same.
Thanks guys, it just made me feel a little bit better. I tried an experiment tonight and it din't come out as planned. I guess that's why they call it an experiment.
So, I've put as much DB aside as possible right now, because our communication about the kids is so abysmal. I told W at counseling (mediation) that I'm not comfortable with our communication about kids and hope we can improve it. So, I ran into an opportunity today to take the first step and its seems like it was a fail (not total, but close)
So, I found out I need to travel next week just an overnight trip. Our schedule has been pretty firm with the kids (my doing) with weeks with me and weekends with her. As you know, I said that I'm good with opening up some weeknights for her, but not comfortable with full week on/week off.
So I figured I could use this trip as an opportunity. My parents live hours away, so I checked to see if they could watch the kids, if needed. Also, W and I said if others would watch the kids, we would inform the other person. So, with this I figured that W wanted some time, I didn't want to 'ask' her to watch the kids, but give her the opportunity to maybe soften up our schedule and start working it out between us. Also, we've been to one line emails for kids exchange status, so I added some more depth into what happened with them this week and a couple other things. Anyway, here's how an excerpt of how the email went:
MCS Email:
I am planning on being out of town to XXX on Jan. XX. I've checked with my parents and they can come down to watch the kids. Just making sure that's okay with you. I'll get you the hotel I'll be at once its scheduled in case there's any emergencies.
W Email:
I will have the kids with me while you are away. I will pick them up XX from school/daycare and keep them through Monday morning. The day with no school is not a problem.
**********
Really? Not a question or a can I? So anyway. MCS still calm and decides to call W. I sent her an email to notify her that I would like to call (A request of hers) So she picks up the phone.
**********
MCS
"I got your email back. Sorry, I just found out today. I just would like to say that you asked if you can have school days. I didn't want to ask you to watch the kids, that's not your responsibility when their with me, but I'm glad that you would like to.
W
"You said that we should let each other know if there are babysitters for the kids."
MCS
"Yes, that's why I sent you the email, I just found out about the travel today. I just want to let you know that I'm trying to improve our communication about the kids and your response back telling me that you are going to take them through the end of your normal time rubbed me the wrong way. (I lose my day on Friday with them as its a day off from school) I understand what you would like, but I'd like to talk through it a little and see if maybe I could take them for a day or something"
W
"We can talk about that at counseling (mediation) anything else?"
MCS
"Sorry, I didn't realize that we had a counseling (mediation) session between when I would leave, I guess we can talk then"
W
"Yep, goodbye"
_____
So, I tried to extend the olive branch to see if we can make this a little smoother and it failed. I guess, she did actually pick up the phone and offer to take the kids without me asking her. That's a win, I guess.
MCS, to be completely honest, Im not sure why you felt the need to call her? Ive read this post a few times, and every time I come up with the same thing.
Your initial email exchange seemed fine to me? I didnt interpret her response as rude, or anything like that. She wasn't exactly super friendly, but she wasn't antagonistic either. Just sounded like she wanted the kids while you were gone, maybe she just wants more time with them too?
Your phone call, seemed...ok. It really just sounds like your W is not ready to talk over the phone, even you were surprised she picked up. I feel like you might be trying to rush things. Just because YOU want to improve communication doesn't mean your W does right now. Remember, we cant rush things, and the more we try, the more negative a response we will probably get. Again, let her do this on her time. If I remember correctly, you guys actually were talking ok for a while, but then you brought up R and it kinda backfired?
I don't think this is a fail or a win. I think...it is what it is. Nothing really to recover from, just don't push her into having more communication when she's not ready. You tried it, it didnt really work, so give it some more time and she'll be ready when she's ready.
Take a deep breath, I feel like you are reading way too much into an email that really didnt sound that bad at all. Just my 2 cents. Don't stress this too much
Much like TLEE86, I don't get what upsets you so much in the communications of your WAW. It seems that, as a matter of principle, you'd like her to communicate more, even if it wouldn't change a thing for the subject at hand.
I don't even think you want to "improve" communications. I think you want to control them. You want them done your way. You'd be better to focus on the outcome, not the process in this case. That's what I do and I let go of a lot of things. For instance, my W never ever says "thank you" for the stuff I send her. Happened again this week: I returned her winter gear left at my parent's place and she didn't peep a word about it. I never bring it up here and I very rarely notice it. She got her stuff back, that's what counts.
My W and I have zero hand-off note for the kids. I wanted us to do it in the beginning but she didn't go along and I dropped it. I don't even think about it now and, after all, we should trust the kids were fine. We tell each other of illnesses, that's it.
See: focus on the outcome. Let go of your idea that you can control the process. You can't control her anyway. Also, as with most things DB, this might be a lesson for how you should be in a future relationship, with her or someone else.
Hey MCS. Yes it's tough when the W doesn't want to speak with you.
One thing I've used that gets a positive response...you ask. You see you didn't ask in your first email. But then you wanted her to ask in her response. Then you poked her about not asking on the phone.
So you could say... "Hey W. Just found out today... I'll being out of town on business to XXX on Jan. XX. How would you feel if my parents came down to watch the kids?"
Then, when you talk on the phone... don't poke her for anything she didn't do for you. No expectations right?
What do you think?
TLEE86,
So, I'm preparing for some 2x4's by this post, I'm just frustrated right now. This has been 5 months of these things. We had one weekend, the days after I confronted her about OM that we talked and that was it. She threatened lawyers by that Tuesday and refused to talk to or email me.
I need to keep reminding myself how lost she is right now, I can support that as an adult and can stay focused. However, my patience as a parent is wearing thin. I get exactly what you are saying from a DB approach and I need to stay focused on that in the long run, I haven't tried to talk about her, I, the R, the M, anything but the kids since Oct. and it hasn't gotten any better. Like I said even the MC seems perplexed why she can't talk to me outside counseling (mediation) about the kids.
Yeah, I didn't need to call her, I just knew I'd fume over this all weekend and hoped that I could talk with her after the MC this week was trying to get us to talk independently with each other.
Its part of putting DB aside right now. I understand LRT/NC for our R, but with the kids it feels our communication is so bad and the kids are suffering, they're not getting the continuity of a common approach from both parents. If they were older, I would say its W responsibility to figure out the relationship with the kids, but our kids are too young for that right now.
I guess I can accept the R is pretty much over right now, but this precedent I can't handle with the kids. Its hard to explain, because some of this stuff is acceptable if you read it independently. My concern is its stuff that is a 180 from how 'we' parented our kids before BD. I've been gently trying a bunch of things since Oct. to improve our conversations after we finally started to go to counseling (mediation.) Before that there was absolutely no contact and since then it hasn't been much better.
It's the proverbial rock and hard place. Since we can't communicate, we both manifest the worse out of things that are happening with the other person.
She's threaten to not let me see the kids, courts lawyers, etc. whenever I don't fully agree with something. Initially, I would throw stuff back about the kids that probably didn't matter in the grand scheme of things and I needed to put aside for DB, but if I was looking at this stuff just as a parent, I'd at least ask her what the deal is.
It's tic-tac stuff when you just list it, but its stuff that parents would discuss and try to resolve or at least get a common understanding when its about kids. I've been patient burying this stuff inside me when I talk to her, but its starting to be overwhelming for me. I've learned to STFU on most of it, but it still bothers me. I've let most of this stuff go and moved on, but I'm continuing to see I'm getting angrier about it. For example:
-First and foremost. She left her kids, walked out on them as they stood there'd watched her leave and then disappeared for a week
-She wasn't bathing the kids when she had them. (she didn't have a bath tub and didn't want to force them to take a shower)
-She took them out of town and did not let me know where she was staying
-She wouldn't let me know where she lived
-She had OM over every weekend at first. After first weekend of S, D4 came back and told Daycare she didn't like Mr. OM, he looked weird
-She's dropped D4 off at daycare in just a nightshirt when its <40 degrees out
-She's had D4 out when it was 30 degrees in flip-flops, a skirt and tights
-She didn't attend S5 Kindergarten orientation, first day of school, parent teacher conference
-She's left town and did not tell me where she was (what if there was an emergency for the kids.) I only knew she left based on our work calendars
-She's used intermediate people to drop off and pick up the kids
-She has never called to talk with the kids, nor accepted my calls to talk with the kids (I stopped when she said she didn't want me calling her)
-She wants a certain schedule, but won't talk to me about any alternatives
-Tells me the kids beg her to come home, but says she can't see that ever happening
-Bought a house 30 minutes away from their school and daycare, plenty of places around here
-Lived in a one bedroom efficiency apartment with no yard or place to play
-Had the kids two days a week and still got others to babysit them
-We told the kids that W was going to take them out for Halloween, she cancelled at the last minute
-We were going to go out together as a family for D4's Birthday, she told me I was uninvited the day before
-She decided at the last minute to drive the kids 6 hours to her mom's on Xmas day, instead of letting them stay home and play with their toys
-Going up to single digit temps at her moms, didn't have hats or gloves for them (I gave her some)
-Only communicates each week about the kids with a one-line email
-Said we should send pictures of kids for important things (test results, school stuff, etc.) I've send 15 things over the last 6 weeks, she hasn't sent any nor replied to any I sent
-Kids singing vulgar songs that we would never let them sing before. "Well, we sing it at mom's place and she says its okay"
Sorry, I know this sounds like I'm just complaining, because that's what I am doing. But she says she's putting the kids first in everything she does and it sure doesn't feel that way to me. My DB tendency has been to shut up about it. I can just see that this is building up in me and I'm not sure when its going to all come pouring out.
Okay, calmed down a little. I think venting here cleared my mind a little. Thanks TLEE, HP, Mozza. I'm trying to make sure I'm not trying to control. However, my core problem right now is I don't trust her with the kids emotions. It's coming back, but very slowly. It's something I need to continue to work on.
Your right, while I didn't like that she just assumed a schedule and stated what it "will" be, she replied back, she answered my call, when I talked she didn't freak out, didn't want to talk until next week, but I guess that's okay.
Those are things I wanted to accomplish with this. I guess I had an expectation that she would 'ask' to watch the kids instead of my parents, it's not fair to get angry at her because she didn't reply back with the right word. Email stinks to communicate anyway.
In the email, I had some other stuff that required an exchange between us. I just sent another email back to her. Explained my desires and reasons for maybe working the schedule, but said we'd talk at counselling (mediation)
As I said to HP, I bought a sign last week:
"Expect nothing, Appreciate Everything"
I got it, I'll make sure I heed that second part tonight.
My dear MCS, you are hurting, I see you, I feel your pain... We could be brothers, you and me, similar ages, our respective Ws similar age, our children similar ages, I too have a D(5) and a S(3)and my W also left. My BD was 2 months earlier than yours.
Let her go, she has to go sort her $hit out. There is nothing you can do to help. Do not try to understand her, you can't so don't even try. But DO lawyer up. Keep a detailed record of her actions and conversations and gather as much evidence you can. But do not snoop, it really will do you no good, and you will feel terrible. You have to protect your interests, financial and other (esp the kids). Do not try to use the kids to get trough to her... It will not work, but you have figured that one out yourself...
DETACH, GAL, 180 and be the best dad in the world for your kids. Don't think about your W, she currently does not give a rat's derrier about you.
IMHO you do have to get some sort of court protection for your kids, she must not be allowed do issue threats using the kids as weapons against you. LAWYER UP, protect yourself. Do not count on her kindness or whatever. She is not the same person you knew, this person now you do not know, and trust me, you do not want to know!
I would bring up the issue with the kids at mediation and stated my boundries. She cannot behave like this, you are their father, you do have rights! Don't get shafted. Again, do not count on her to do the right thing, she will not. Always have a backup plan in she stands you out. Do not call her, do not text her, do not email her, the only exception being the kids.
It will get better, I promise you, just focus on you and your kids, try to live like she is a neighbor. Be civil, but nothing more. Always have your game face on, let her wonder why you are happy (even if you are not). Do not show feelings around her, if you are overwhelmed, cry in private, tears do wash and clean your soul. Stay busy and keep your mind off her. She is not worth your brain power. I am sure you have a ton of stuff you always wanted to do. Guess what, now you have the time. Go do stuff. Being single in a refreshing change after 15yrs. It will feel weird at first, but I am loving it now. Movies for 1? Why not? Having a beer too many with friends from time to time? Why not? The battle axe is not around to give you a hard time... Liberate your soul, the hurting does no one any good. She will not just snap out of it, she will not come running to your arms tomorrow. Now that you have time, analyze your shortcomings in the M and own your $hit as well. I know you were not the perfect H. Admit it to yourself, own your $hit, forgive yourself and improve yourself. Become the guy only an idiot would leave. If your wife does not recognize the new you, some other lucky woman will.
And to wrap it up, go to joelosteen.com, go under messages and have a look at the video release control. 30 minutes you will not regret. Go now, do, BE!
Vapo,
Thanks a lot. I took a look at the video, it really helped. I've been trying to work through releasing control of all parts of the sitch with my IC. I've got it down for the R, our finances, the kids are the last thing. It's just the things she's done to the kids, they don't deserve it and then I get all Daddy Bear on her. The toughest part is how different her parenting seems right now.
I can say talking with the kids, she is getting better with her interactions with them. The kids will usually tell me what they did with her and it seems like she's not as focused on herself when their with her.
I've got a lawyer (she saw one within first week, I guess she was concerned with abandonment) and have been keeping track of most things that are noteworthy. I've got a few questions into the Lawyer about finances right now. We're in a 50/50 no fault state, so the joy of this whole thing is if we D, I'll owe her pile of money too.
Thanks for checking in. I appreciate it.
So, I'm still up and down with the whole communication with the kids. It's tearing me up for some reason and I think I know why....
Here's a vent session.......but I've felt this way all weekend. I need to get it out.
Using DB as the core, I've STFU about everything, including the kids. I've become fearful of anything I say about the kids to her. Why? fear that it would drive her away. Fear she would stop talking to me. Fear that she would stop going to counselling (mediation.) I didn't sleep at all last Monday because I knew she would bring up the schedule and then get mad if I didn't agree without changing it. Well, that happened
Well, all of these decisions she's made for the last year are hers alone. I can't control those decisions. Even though she blames this all on me, sure our marriage became ho-hum. I wanted more in our M, I just knew that it was a time that our M was laissez faire. 2 jobs, young kids, etc. But swe still found time to go on vacations that she wanted and all.
Sure she was overwhelmed 1.5 years ago with a 1 and 3 year old. Well, so was I. Then the martyism that she had over the last year. It's still there. Complaining about everything and how nothing is ever good in her life. She would tell me she never has any time for herself. Well, now I see that she had enough time for an A for over a year.
Even now, she's complaining how tight money is because she needs to pay two mortgages, this was to a friend of ours that knows what I've been trying to do with that. Her buying a house And paying both wereher decision....I keep trying to split her mortgage with me or just take mine myself and she won't do it. That would give her something she couldn't complain about.
Then she complained to me last week about how hard she has had to work for the kids to get the house ready. Saying she had to carry a dresser up the stairs herself, had to buy a house, etc....Her decisions! and why is she complaining about how hard SHE worked for them. If she was honestly looking at them first, it wouldn't matter. I don't mind one bit of the stuff I've done for the kids, it's actually when I'm not around them that I get upset.
This martyism was part of her way to cope about what was going on in her life, complain about something. I look back and this goes on for a while, but it never was over the top. Then I see the last year was different. When she was talking with me, it was always other things that were wrong in her life: work, friends, volunteering. You'd think at least once she would have said. MCS, you are why I'm unhappy or MCS, our marriage is in trouble. Nope, never. Never, never......then when she left, who did she blame? MCS. She would have kept that on me for the rest of my life. MCS was the one to ruin the M, but then I found out about OM and her plan didn't work.
Now I look back and the complaining she did with me, she did with other people, but the topic was different. It was MCS. MCS has caused all of her problems, our friends didn't believe it because they know MCS and her allegations were ridiculous. Her family didn't believe it, they know MCS. Friends told me after BD that she would say complain about me and they'd tell her to talk to MCS about it. Did she? Nope. But when they would ask again, she'd tell them that she's told me multiple times, or she told me and I yelled at her. WHAT?!?
Well, OM believed the things she said about MCS, so she kept telling him. Then she started to hang out with OM's friends and GF. They believed it too. So MCS is a horrible person and here's the thing. SHE started to believe it. why all of this lying? 18 months of lying (maybe more.) because W is not looking at herself.
I need to stop trying to rescue her. Gently, nudging her to see if she can get back on track, but not saying stuff about the kids because it may upset her. I can honestly say, looking back MCS was a really good husband and dad before BD. Now MCS is working on become a fantastic husband and dad. It's W decision if she wants back in.
My family is me and my two wonderful kids, right now. MCS is going to keep mum on mostly everything, but not the kids. They need me to be their Dad and right now, I'm not because I'm fearful my wife may get upset about what I say.
Do not get fearful. And a newsflash buddy, you can't lose her, for she is already lost to you. Ditch the fear, fear is the mind killer. So what if she stops talking to you? What good did the recent conversations bring you? None?!?
Dude, time to focus on yourself and release all ideas of control you think you have. Go watch the video again... Release control, focus on you and let her the four be...
Vapo,
Yeah, I agree. Your right, our conversations are doing nothing. She tells me things and does whatever she wants anyway. She's so angry at sessions and I let it affect me, like I'm a bad person. It's the pinnacle of diversion and projecting back onto me. The comments about how hard she has it really put me over the edge. Like it was my fault she's in this. I used to think that way, but that's what my boiling point was. Im done taking the blame. It's like trying to talk to a spoiled teenager.
I watched that video last night and that's when I realized that the outcome is going to be what it's meant to be. like I said, my IC has been working on trying to make me realize that I'm paralyzed with fear about how things I do or say could affect the outcome. I Was just not getting it at first, but the video helped....it's not in my hands. I'm releasing control.
my W and M aside, it's so painful to cope with the thought of missing out on half my kids lives, but that's just one other thing that I can't control right now. Also, I need to live for today, not for what may or may not come.
I know she's already gone, so why was I still trying to rescue her? I don't know. What I was trying to say above that these were all 'her' decisions, I can't cater to them anymore. I'm not going to be a jerk about anything, but it's time I start doing what I need to do.
The first part of that is tell her that how's she is interacting with me when it comes to the kids is unacceptable. It is not fair to the kids and it's her decision to either make this cordial or keep going down the path we are going.
Thanks for your help Vapo, it's funny in my sitch, whenever I start to transition to the next phase, it's like all of these people that don't know each other unite and make me take the next step. You and the video did push me over the edge, you were probably the 6th or 7th person in the past few days that hit me with the 2x4 of 'stop trying to ignore that she is already gone' and 'you can only control you, not the outcome'
Thanks
MCS
This W of yours iseems very confused, lost and guilty. Probably ashamed and angry at the same time.
Fear resonates from you. Fear of doing anything for fear of upsetting W.
MCS your children are first in your life and should be in Ws too.
There is so much in your post but there is a veneer of fear. Fear of further loss, but W is already lost to you, she is lost to herself and nothing you can do will change that. You are going to have to let W be lost. You are going to be the strong one. It looks to me that you can not hurt W any more than she is doing this to herself.
W has to find herself as a mother and to herself. Everything you write shows inconsistency. MCS you will have to be the Source of action for your children, W has made decisions which appear illogical to you but they are not illogical to W.
Please be aware you are not taking control of W, in any way. You are creating structure for your children, boundaries through which you can operate.
Held firm with gentle loving tones. strong and independent of thought for these precious bundles that are part of you.
Vanilla
Well, so much for thinking that I was finally getting detached.
Kids come back and tell me that OM was over to watch the football game. His favorite team, of course. W their biggest fan too, even though she didn't even like football when we were together. Kids say mom bought football cupcakes, so I say, 'was it a party?' Nope, just Mr. OM.
Well, guess who I saw during the same time at the store? OM's GF shopping with their kid and I guess her mom. She didn't see me, but gotta love small towns...
So, W told me that R with OM was over and he told GF about what was happening....sure. It probably went like this.......
_________________
"Hey, GF. I'm gonna head out to my OW, (who's just my really good friend now.) Remember, I told you that you have nothing to worry about. Why don't you head out shopping with the kid."
"No problem, OM. I've got this, wow you're such a good catch. I'm glad that things didn't work out for you and MCS's W."
_________________
And W claimed that I destroyed her self esteem?!? How about knowing getting used and being okay with it. Anyway, I can't change what she's doing, although I'm feeling really sad for her that she left her marriage and still feels the need to live in a lie. One lie she tried to escape with me, one still there for his family. Its a sad, sad world.
What I'm struggling with is the kids. Is it fair to set the boundary that OM is not around the kids? She has the kids for a whole 2 days and can't seem to spend it just with them. This is on the heels of her saying that "MCS, the kids are first in my life right now...." B.S.
She's past my limit with this, I guess I'll ask MC what's the best approach to address it.
Sorry MCS, it sounds like it got on your PMA. I, however, don't really see the problem again. She wants to S, right? She's not willing to work on the M, right? So what does it matter how she spends her time?
Also, here's a revelation gathered from everyone's threads around here:
WAS lie about A and OP. Don't ever, ever expect the truth. I'm serious: you will not get it. Don't ask her a question about OM. Don't hope to gather info from her. This is one of the things I learnt in the last four months. Even though my W lied about her A five years ago, I still believed I could get the truth from her in these crucial moments of our R. Nope. Look at Card29, vasapro, Complex... In the last few days or weeks, they finally uncovered months of lies. It's just how it works with an A. It's not about you, not even your W.
What I'm struggling with is the kids. Is it fair to set the boundary that OM is not around the kids? She has the kids for a whole 2 days and can't seem to spend it just with them. This is on the heels of her saying that "MCS, the kids are first in my life right now...." B.S.
Tell us exactly how you will enforce this boundary? Blow up when you hear that OM was there? You have no control over that and the reality is that OM is not toxic to the kids. Just because you don't like what you think is going on between OM and your W doesn't mean that she's a bad parent. Frankly, I see absolutely no problem with them having a little football watching party with the kids around. Also, the advice I heard around here is that you can't prevent OM from meeting the kids, so let go.
We still don't know exactly what was your W's problem with you, but I'm starting to wonder if it's that your reactions are unpredictable (which would refer to her 'emotional safety' if I recall). Very often, when I read the latest that has happened, I fail to understand your reaction to them. You want things done a certain way, rationalize that it's obviously better even though there are valid differing viewpoints (week on/off comes to mind) and feel the need to confront WAW of be indignant about it. Perhaps it's not bad fait, it's not lower standards, it's not bad people, it's just different perspectives. It might just be me, but it can be something to think about.
I actually thought of you when I read this article:
The subtle art of not giving a f... I'm not done reading it, but it looks relevant and the timing is right. Hope it's useful.
I hope I'm not too brutal. We're on your side.
Mozza,
No offense taken. That's part of this board is to examine the faults that we have. I would actually say that if there was a problem, it was the opposite of what you are saying. I was too predictable. I have always had a pretty straight and narrow, calculated life. Everything I did was planned. My W was more of a free spirit than I was, more spontaneous. However, she had the planner's attitude also, just not as much as me. So, that's where we complemented each other. She pushed me out of my comfort zone and into a more spontaneous life and I was the one that pushed into the realm of analyze everything before we would make a decision. So, it worked good for the first couple years, but as we got older; the spontaneity was reduced. The once we had kids, it was reduced even further. At that point, I think I became more comfortable and 'settled' and she may have felt like something was missing.
A good example of this was vacations. She would love to go on random weekend vacations. Something I would never do myself, but would go along for it. Aruba, next week? Sure, whatever you want. Yeah, as we settled all of these things went away in our lives, especially once the kids arrived.
So, conflict was this way also. I always had a very similar approach to solving it....logic and then some more logic. Looking back, since I didn't have much negative stuff in my past; I associated that with my planning aspect of my personality. I used to say, you always had to be responsible for decisions you made and deal with the consequences. I used that to look at other people also, part of what Vanilla addressed with the judgmental part. However, this approach was a pretty immature way of looking at life.
So, that's my struggle now and when I look back. I think my wife was upset about the predictability that our life had become. She yearned for more, but when she would try to address it with me, the logic would come out and at times thwart her desires. In my eyes, that was our 20's to get all of the spontaneity out and now we were in our 30's with a family it was time to settle. I thought we were hitting an equal balance with this, but obviously not.
So, you see what appears to be my unpredictability; but that's centered around me trying to "plan" and "analyze" situations that logic cannot apply to. To couple with this, is the seemingly 180 that my wife has had with regards to how 'we' used to parent. That's the crux of the problem. A part of me feels like she fell into how I wanted to parent our kids and may have just been following along and now that's she's away from me is doing her own thing. Then I over analyze this on these forums to see if this is something that is acceptable or not. But its all based on my preconceived notion of what's acceptable to me....does that make sense?
Also, I agree that WAS's continue to lie about the R and OM to suit their needs. My issue is, like I said the lack of trust and since its there, I'm having trouble assessing and separating the lack of trust in my W, her A and our M from the lack of trust about the kids. Its crazy, I know.
I still can't wrap my head around you and my differing opinions about having our kids exposed to our sitchs; you seem okay with it and take it in strides; but if I were in your position, I think I would have gone crazy by now. We both love our kids more than anything and that's what I'm saying, I think my struggles are based on my own personal principles and where "I" felt the principles were raising our kids. My struggle is I'm not sure what the W's principles are right now and whether things she says to me in person are genuine to how she's acting. IDK.
Mozza,
That article may indeed break the internet...
Have you seen the movie 'Office Space' that article reminded me of that movie.
So this is the money quote in that article (censored of course) :
Because when we give too many "bleeps", when we choose to give a "bleep" about everything, then we feel as though we are perpetually entitled to feel comfortable and happy at all times, that’s when life "bleeps" us.
Yep, that's MCS in a nutshell. That's my problem right now.
I gave a "bleep" about everything and now that something that is worth giving a "bleep," I'm not sure what other "bleeps" to give a "bleep" about.
Literally, true story, the night of BD, I was telling W how fortunate and comfortable our life was and how we achieved this by our hardwork and planning. I thought we were in a good place at that time......nope, only one of us was...
Well, maybe thats why she feels she is emotionally unsafe with me. Its obvious I wasn't quite in tune with her emotions at that point. Then when BD comes a couple hours later, instant breakdown for MCS. Yeah, proverbial life upside down.
So, sitting here thinking about it. Yep, don't care. It was a football game. Like you said Mozzo, I'm disappointed because I'm still trying to hold on to trusting what she says. This is not her, she lost and the lies are showing me that she's in pain and can't face some of these thjngs herself. She's angry, which is typical right now.
No offense taken. That's part of this board is to examine the faults that we have. I would actually say that if there was a problem, it was the opposite of what you are saying. I was too predictable.
Thanks for the clarification. Ironically, it made me feel more similar to you than ever. We had a bit of the same dynamic at home. But that's not what I was referring to. I'm referring to what you call "logic" and appears to be very obvious to you. I'm suggesting that you are fairly rigid about your own "logic", which is sometimes just an opinion, like any other. I've a friend like this. He's an engineer, full of logic. But sometimes, you can just see him paint himself in a corner and then you know he won't change his mind because he convinced himself that his way is right. He's known for that, although he doesn't recognize it himself. (are you an engineer?)
So that's what I mean, clumsily, when I used the word "unpredictable". You express some logic, which often surprises me, and then state it as obvious and right. To use our example, you think week on/week off is bad, but I still don't understand your reasons. You only explained that your IC said it depends. If that's also what you tell your W, rather than come up with arguments, then I can understand that she feels cornered.
I still can't wrap my head around you and my differing opinions about having our kids exposed to our sitchs; you seem okay with it and take it in strides; but if I were in your position, I think I would have gone crazy by now. We both love our kids more than anything and that's what I'm saying, I think my struggles are based on my own personal principles and where "I" felt the principles were raising our kids. My struggle is I'm not sure what the W's principles are right now and whether things she says to me in person are genuine to how she's acting. IDK.
Can you perhaps explain what's the harm caused to the kids from seeing OM? Describe it from the point of view of say, a child psychologist or a social worker, that would monitor the development of your kids all the way into adulthood. What will be messed up about them because they are exposed to OM? Also, would you describe how you'd go about it with the kids if you were to meet another women after a D?
I'm not asking this to confront you, but to help you articulate your thoughts on this. I'm no vet, so this is not advice, but support and food for thought.
Mozza,
Yep, you got me. Engineer through and through. Interestingly, so is my W.
Sorry, if the things that I state seem like I'm stating them as fact that they are bad, that's not my intention. I'm really only comparing them to how it appeared we were raising our kids prior to BD. I had said a few posts ago, if you read those things out of context, no big deal. However, if you apply it to how we were parenting; its just very different than we were. Doesn't mean its bad, just different and not like how I thought W would parent which causes some concern for me along with the other changes from the W.
Take something small that your W may see as important for the daily activities with your kids and then 180 it. You have daughters, if during your M wife was always making sure that their hair was combed whenever they would leave the house and then BD and people that know her start saying Mozza, saw your W and kids and their hair was a mess. What's up with that, is everything okay? It would cause you some concern, probably.
That's my problem. All these little things add up to some of my frustration,I don't really know why. I guess its cause I'm not sure whats 'really' important or what to let go....just like that article says.
__________________
So my hard OM stand is not for today, but for the future. I have a co-worker who's parents split when she was 5. Right after our S happened, I was talking with her about her parents D. I know both of them. She told me.
"MCS, I don't remember a whole lot about my parents D. I remember they all had it coordinated. We went on a trip with my mom for the weekend, she mentioned something to us kids and when we came back dad's stuff was gone. Then when I was a teenager, I was sitting in my room one day and it all clicked in my head. Mom and Dad got D and Mr. OM (new stepdad) was around right afterwards. No one ever told me what happened, and it took 10 years but I then knew what happened."
She's a great girl, well adjusted. She's actually part of my comfort that the kids will be just fine if we get D, but that story hit home. I said to myself to try and shelter the kids as much as I can from some of these realities that they don't understand now, but will at some point in their life.
Also, if you read HP's thread a while back about some of the things in his childhood. His dad did great job of sheltering the kids from what was really going on that it was ~30 years and it still took HP's dad telling him what happened.
With an OM in the picture, we are reducing the opportunity to provide that insight if/when it is need in our child's life. We are exposing them now and it will be on their own accord that they will figure it out, good or bad.
Hey, this is just my opinion and that's it. I'm not trying to influence your decisions at all, we all have different sitchs.
____________
Lastly, the week on/ week off. That's a personal preference that I don't feel comfortable about it. I'm not sure if I said it, but the MC said research shows there's no ideal schedule. Its all situational, the negative thing for kids is when the parents don't get along.
My issue with the whole schedule thing in general is that its all or nothing for her; she won't discuss anything else other than "MCS says yes or MCS is withholding the kids from me seeing them" Its been no in-between or conversation about it. That's all, I want to have the conversation and agree together. This isn't a win/loss thing; but should be a compromise.
Sorry, didn't answer the question about me and an OW in the future and how to expose the kids.
Basically, right now for me, no exposure to the kids until after D is finalized. That may change if I'm in a R, IDK.
So for the age of the kids, I think that my R would have to be pretty serious for me to expose the kids to it. I haven't thought too much about it, but I'd try to prevent multiple people having a role in their lives as a pseudo-stepmom. If they were older and understood relationships, marriages and break-ups maybe. However, I would try to prevent any connection of the kids to an OW until the point that I was comfortable that the relationship may go somewhere. No comparison to my current sitch, but I would hate for even a hint of the same feelings being brought up if/when that relationship with OW would dissolve.
Again, haven't thought about it much; just brainstorming. Like I said, I'm a pretty conservative guy when it comes to these types of things. Its just how I feel about it.
Thanks for the clarifications, MCS.
I wonder if you have empathy for your W. She is going through a rough time too. Her M is also failing and she probably didn't mean to get there when she got married. Her situation with OM is complicated. You're not a positive presence in her life. Taking care of the kids might be hard. Yes yes, it's all her fault (well, maybe not), but it doesn't matter: it's hard for her too.
Let me tell you: if my W were to micromanage the way I take care of the kids during my week, things would get ugly fast. She emailed my parents because they gave soft drinks to our kids and I stepped in telling her to trust me when I have the kids. I'm not a perfect parent and neither is she, so let's cut each other some slack.
The other thing about your W's current parenting technique is that it's only transitory. She's in a weird moment in her life too. She's not herself. Over time, things will stabilize for her and she'll have more focus on the important things in her life. Don't assume that her way of dressing them or else is her new approach until the kids are adults. Just see it for what it is: a transition. Focus on what does real harm now, and not what might eventually become harmful over time because it likely won't happen anyway.
Take something small that your W may see as important for the daily activities with your kids and then 180 it. You have daughters, if during your M wife was always making sure that their hair was combed whenever they would leave the house and then BD and people that know her start saying Mozza, saw your W and kids and their hair was a mess. What's up with that, is everything okay? It would cause you some concern, probably.
Not really. For instance, the kids tell me that they eat pizza "every day" with their mom. I seriously doubt that's true, but I assume they eat it several times a week. It doesn't sound like a healthy diet to me. But then again, they eat well at school and with me, so what if they eat pizza 4 times in two weeks? My W is not going to feed them pizza forever: she just needs to settle. People cook food at home because it's better, more varied, less expensive and more rewarding. She'll get back there eventually. I don't sweat it. No *bleep* given. Also, D6 told me that they stay inside the entire week-end when they're with their mom, something we never did as a family. So what? Again, it's a transition and they get plenty of fresh air the other 12 days of the week. Also, we spent Saturday inside this week, so it's not like I'm super-dad either. Again, no *bleep* given.
I'm glad the article was inspiring. The message is: focus on the big thing, then don't pour energy in the small stuff.
So my hard OM stand is not for today, but for the future. (...) I said to myself to try and shelter the kids as much as I can from some of these realities that they don't understand now, but will at some point in their life. (...)
With an OM in the picture, we are reducing the opportunity to provide that insight if/when it is need in our child's life. We are exposing them now and it will be on their own accord that they will figure it out, good or bad.
Sorry I'm obtuse, but I still don't get it. If you D, then your kids will realize it much later in life (same for my kids: I can see D6 doesn't connect the dots when she observes that OM sleeps with WAW). What is the problem with that? Are you saying the R between OM and WAW is impossible, yet they will act it out in front of your kids, and 10-15 years from now, your kids will understand it, giving them a bad opinion of their mom? Or making you look like a fool? I really don't get it, I'm not trying to play games!
And don't worry about convincing me or not. This is really not about convincing each other, this is just me trying to help you to articulate your position. It's for real life, not for here. ;-)
My issue with the whole schedule thing in general is that its all or nothing for her; she won't discuss anything else other than "MCS says yes or MCS is withholding the kids from me seeing them" Its been no in-between or conversation about it. That's all, I want to have the conversation and agree together. This isn't a win/loss thing; but should be a compromise.
No. It's about the kids. It doesn't matter how you get there, whether it's a compromise or someone's unilateral decision, as long as it's a good decision for the kids. You seem to want,
as a matter of principle, to extract a compromise from your W. In fact, you say as much in your first and last sentences. Keep your eyes on the ball: do what's right for the kids. Your MC told you that any schedule is fine as long as you two get along, yet you do the opposite: you refuse a particular schedule at the risk of creating needless conflict between the two of you. Now you've painted yourself in a corner by opposing her demand and you will have to either extract a win, for no benefit other than your ego victory, or back down.
You're really annoyed that your W is getting her way. She's done something really awful in the beginning when she just bailed. BTW, it's so bad, it is one of the stories I tell people about what I read on these forums. Since then, she continued to be in control. It's normal, she has something that you want (M). It's the same for me: my W has a new apartment, new furniture and appliances, a romantic week with a new hot guy, a week with the kids, no more arguments with H (me), no more anti-depressants, etc. I often wonder aloud: she wins so much, why is it that not everybody does the same?? But it doesn't matter: it's not about crushing her win or evening out. It's about our goals, be it of self-salvation of reconciliation (and the welfare of the kids), depending how you ultimately see BD.
----------
OK, I've said enough. For all I know, I may be the only one with these opinions and I don't want to influence your thinking too much. I only hope it helps you reflect on and articulate your position.
Mozza,
We got something going tonight, it's like old times
I get the micromanaging, I did it at first, but I've tried to be much more STFU about it recently. A lot of it is ranting here and that is all. Also, thanks for the transitionary statement, i didn't think about that really. I guess it's the same as the phase of the S, they change over time. It's a good thought for me to sleep on. I appreciate it.
Yeah, for the R with the OM, regardless of whether it's there or not, I do think that it could cause an issue years later. Again, just my opinion. My niece is 18 and over the last year or so started to figure out what happened to my brother and his XW (D 8 years ago) There was an A there, he ended up marrying OW. Anyway, now niece having some emotional issues and she blames it on resentment of the D and the remarrying, but it could be anything she would blame if it wasn't this.
As for the schedule, it's not a matter of principle for me, but that's probably how I'm stating it here. My kids are struggling with 'missing' the other person in the 4/3 day schedule we have right now. I hear about it most nights and during the exchange. They're doing better than they were before, but they haven't gotten the swing of this thing yet. I don't think more days in between would be good for them
Alas, the last thing for tonight is my wife getting her way. Yep, that's a big part of my resentment with her right now and it's really centered around just one thing. The kids. I am so incredibly infuriated that she has decided that I am only entitled to spending half of my kids life with them and vice versa. I got no opportunity to try and make this right with her for them. It selfish, plain and simple.
It's my biggest fear out of all of this, bar none. I would hand the house, my money, everything over to her today if I could have the kids, but that wouldn't be fair to them. It's why I stayed in the house, to try to make this the best situation for them in the current circumstances. That's just it, Im a grown man, and can take whatever the outcome is, but this decision that she unilaterally made for them, it eats me up everyday. That's the deepest pain. I'm not sure how to deal with that.
Oh, sorry one more post. I have a ton of empathy for my wife. I pray everynight that Gods hand will come down and scoop her up and comfort her. To help her understand that others can't make her happy, it's herself that she needs to reconcile with.
My wife is a wonderful person caught in a really bad position. I do realize that these are her decisions, but I can see how the friendship transcended into something more, how she felt she couldn't tell me, the pain she must of felt looking at me content and happy while she was struggling so much inside. How she spent the last year trapped in her own world with no one to talk to. The conflict of being intimate with me, when she was withdrawing, I could go on and on.
In fact tonight, I was crying to a friend as I was thinking about the situation my wife is in. How she's thinking she's trying to find her happiness in a cheese less tunnel. How her self esteem is so low that she's okay with what appears to me a relationship that she is just being used. It's so sad that everyone that would love her through this, she's pushed away. That includes friends, family, everyone. She's so lost and the person I see is not the person that I think is in her heart, but I no one can tell her that.
Im not sure if I said it before here, it's tough for me and pretty personal, but that night of BD; when I was saying to her how good our life was. She left and I sat there myself and was praying. I was thanking Him for all that he has provided to us and prayed how appreciative I was and that it was my turn to help someone else. I didn't know who, but asked for him to guide me to it. Well, look what happened 2 hours later. That's not a coincidence. It can't be. Everytime in my sitch that I've been down in the dumps, the same two messages come into my brain (thanks Mozza's, this post did it for me tonight)
Love her, MCS
Be patient, MCS
I thought the outcome would be R, but now I'm not quite as sure, but I know this all is part of a plan that I don't yet understand.
Well folks, MCS might be done here.
(Mozza's don't read this....l'll get a big "told ya so" this is so not me, but I've been 'me' for the last couple months and it has gotten me nowhere.
Had counselling mediation today and I went in angry, but she put me over the edge.
It started out okay, talking about immediate plans for the upcoming weekend (what she told me to wait for counselling to do) we agreed on that, then moved onto a permanent schedule. That went okay, but it was obvious that neither of use could figure out exactly what to do.
Then we started to talk about bringing the kids to counselling. She asked me what I've been telling them. I said that I tell them when they ask why W and I can't work it out that I don't know, but God has a plan.
I then gave her the picture that S5 drew for her of the family together, and asked 'how are we going to address that as parents? I saw her eyes soften up when she looked at it and then she just shrugged and said I don't know and put it aside. That did it for me.
I said, I'm still concerned that W just ignores my requests. I said that kids said OM was over watching a football game. I requested that they are not around him when their with her (she says there's no R with him) She said, he didn't watch the game, he came over to move furniture, he watched the game at his parents house. Well, then I said, I saw OM's GF at the store. I said to W, "OM never told GF what happened, why do you keep lying?" I just can't take the lies anymore...kids said that he was there for 2 football games. She knows that I can't verify and that's whyshe countered,theyve been doing this for almost 18 months, they know how to cover it. but it doesn't matter. It's just I'm so sick of the deceit and lies about our R and our Kids.
Then I said to her,
"please understand this is your decision and no one else's. S5 wants us to try, D4 wants us to try, MCS wants us to try, but it's your decision that you don't. MCS still loves you, and if this is what you think will make you happy than I am okay with that, but I'm not okay about not addressing the sitch with our kids or working for healthy communications about our kids. We can't talk about them, it's been 5 months and we haven't even figure out what to tell them. That's all your decision not to talk to MCS. However MCS wants our relationship as co-parents to be cordial and you have decided not to. Either you can choose the path we are on or you can choose to try to work together for our kids. Like everything it's your decision and I'm going to go in the waiting room so you can talk it over with MC." At that I walked out.
When they came and got me, it was a little more calm, until she said "you broke my boundary by calling me when it wasn't an emergency. I said to her, "how many times have I called you in the last 4 months?" She said she wasn't sure. I said twice. Once on Friday, once after she cancelled taking the kids out for Halloween at the last second. I said then "how many times have we talked about something other than the kids and our near term plans with them." She said, well you can put that stuff in an email, I don't need to answer it right away.
So now I'm even more mad, but time was up. Then I had a low blow, I said, "at this pace, I'm fearful we won't even be able to stand next to each other at our kids wedding!" It was so low, because her mom wouldn't stand next to her dad at our wedding. Her mom constantly blames her dad for everything and always makes up excuses and lies about things. Well, even when I talked to her mom right after BD, her first thing she said was "MCS, this is what her Dad has done to her."
So the MC was saying to me as I was talking, MCS you're going backwards. But I told him beforehand I was done with this stuff of trying to tiptoe around her, it's gotten us nowhere. I said to him. "I don't care, we can't even discuss our kids, That makes me angry, how worse could it get?"
So then later today, she sent me a long email talking about plans for this weekend and asking about what to discuss with kids about our sitch? So MCS is confused, I may have put the nail in the coffin with any hope of R, but maybe this is what we needed for us to get it out on the table about communicating with the kids.
I'm done DB when it comes to these things, she reached out and sent an email, I'll send her one back tonight.
I believe you use your kids as a weapon against her. I don't believe that is working. Do what works. Why would you keep doing what isn't working?
Man, it feels like just the opposite. That's she's doing that with me. Mozza said the same thing the other day, why do you guys think that?
How could I treat this different, just let her do whatever she wants with them?
How do I set boundaries with her about them?
I can tell you I have resentment that she will not address anything about their emotions throught this. When I asked her, she said it's better for them to have an emotionally stable mom? When I asked again, she said kids are resilient?
I'm sure it does feel just the opposite.
Her answers to you about the kids is evidence that she feels your pressure..
Remember..people push back when pressured.
So tell me... If pressure isn't working, what does that tell us?
I also think you're using the kids to control her.
You seem to expect your WAW to act like a W. And it frustrates you immensely that she doesn't. You're trying to force her to have normal W reactions, to care and react the same way she did before. You're unsettled by her new ways and you're trying to force her to have the reactions that are familiar to you.
In a R, you have mutual 'power' over each other because it's an exchange. You promise fidelity in return for that of the other. You promise to care for them because they'll care for you. It's give and take. In a S, it's all out the window. The contract is broken. The person leaving releases you from any obligation, in return for their own freedom.
You don't want your freedom, so you're trying to deny hers, to still enforce the M contract. "Talk to me. Negotiate. Compromise. Explain yourself." You rationalize your positions, as I was explaining before: "Obviously, I'm reasonable and she's not. She should change." Even I think that sometimes your positions are not the only perspective (but they are valid). But the fact is that, she won't do what you want just because you want it. Not anymore.
You explained earlier why you're concerned that the kids will meet OM. Your explanation was about the impact of a S or D, it was not about th impact of meeting OM. You're concerned about them realizing later that their parents have separated. But it's already happened. They will meet OM, this one or another. I think you're trying to prevent your W from spending time with OM and you use the kids to do so. Once you understand that you're S, to me, the reasonable thing about an OM is to agree to introduce him only after certain time has passed (3 months? 6 months? 1 year?) so that it's clear that the R is serious. I don't want my kids to be introduced and get attached to a couple of men a year. It's something I'd suggest to my W, without any way of enforcing it nor guarantee that she will abide. It's something I intend to do when I meet someone, regardless of my WAW. It's just my opinion on this, but you will see that it takes into account that we're S.
I'm sorry your meeting didn't go so well today. It sure feels good to step out of DB and I wish I had the luxury sometimes. By the way, DB is not about being a doormat and you can make strong stances. It's about alpha men, not alpha dogs.
Do you see an IC? I do and it's enlightening, even if it takes time.
A couple topics here.
Mozza,
A couple late breaking things on my session today at the end, but to answer your questions first.
I get it, but I guess that I have the more biblical view of marriage. There is no separation. There is marriage or divorce. Probably part of my struggle. The contract is broken, the obligations are broken when its a D. Just my opinion
I agree, that my perspectives are not the only one. My issue was she wanted me to agree with a decision of hers that affected me or the kids w/o even considering my perspective. I'm fine when its a decision for just her. I've never tried to make that an issue.
About introducing an OM into a R during separation, I agree with you on the timeframe. I really don't care about what she's doing with OM as long as the kids are not involved. That's it. but like you said, I can't enforce that.
_______
So, you saw my stuff above, I took a much more aggressive stance on our communications with the kids. As I said, it was important enough for me to put DB (validation, happiness, etc.) aside and just lay it all out. We were stagnant, we'd leave there with no progress and then I'd vent on the boards here. She was comfortable with me being a doormat with this stuff and backing down from any conflict.
So, just got an email from W. She said she called the MC after our session and asked why the meeting broke down. I'm not sure what was actually said, because my blow up was all centered around a)when she shrugged when I asked how we emotionally support the kids in this and b) when she told me that I should have realized to email and not call her about the plans for this weekend. I don't care, I'm not trying to keep score.
I know MC was trying to get me to calm down about things because I was definitely laying it on so I'm sure a good portion is true.
Anyway, she said that MC told her that she should warn me with R talk and then if I don't follow it leave. I see it a little different, she shuts down about any emotional talk (like separating out our stuff) but tags that as R talk.
Then she asked the questions that needed to be asked.....
She said MC said to her that she's never asked me what I needed for closure, she wanted to know. Also, asked me what areas bog down our discussions.
She said that MC said we need to get over these things in order to establish the discussions about the separation and the kids.
BINGO!!!!!
So I have a reply drafted, but go to IC tomorrow and will get her read on it first. I'll see if I can post it over here.
Here's the email..
_______
Thank you, W. I brought up stuff today that still really is causing me pain, as you could see. I've never had a chance to discuss that stuff with you, but have been holding it in since all this happened.
I meant what I said today that I will support you in whatever you would like to do in this. I'm not sure what would give me closure. I've accepted where we are as a couple. I'll tell you, I'm still not even close to acceptance with what this means with respect to only being with our kids fifty percent of the time.
I'm trying to be better and I've tried to work on keeping things separate between us as a couple and us as co-parents, but I backslide as I get upset about the kids and then I bring our relationship into it.
That brings me to what I tried to make the main point today, but failed. Our interactions with the kids. It is so important to me that we develop that. I feel we both need to be patient with each other.
I find it perfectly acceptable for you to leave if you are uncomfortable if I take our discussions off topic.
What triggers it for me is when we are talking about the kids or the logistics of our Separation and I feel that there is avoidance working through a topic because it's difficult emotionally. You've accommodated me on some of these areas, so I appreciate that. But there's things we need to discuss in our separation and about our kids that are going to be really tough on both of us.
Today was the picture [S5 made a picture of us together as a family], it wasn't fair to you for me to bring that into the conversation, but the topic I was trying to address was how we are going to support our kids emotionally. It's a huge concern of mine.
I think the answer is....
Stop the pressure.. If she is feeling pressure and we know pressure doesn't work... then take off the pressure...
don't make this more complicated than it is... first take off the pressure..
The key here is how do you do that? Give me some ideas on how you think you can take off the pressure she is feeing from you?
MCS..
Here is my take....
I believe women are attracted to emotionally strong men..
Men who show "I can handle it for us honey.. don't worry, I'll take care of it"...
Emotional strength in times of stress. When a woman is in times of stress..(and you better get used to that happening often when with a woman because most women are emotional beings) she needs her man to be a rock of strength to lead her through the issue...
When he is emotionally weak (shown by your walking out today which could easily be viewed as a tantrum.) then she loses her attraction..
So, you can't attract her back when you are demonstrating emotional weakness.. By you telling her that you "are worried about the kids this and the kids that" she FEELS it as your emotional weakness in times of stress.....
Emotional strength would be telling and showing her things like..... "Tell me what your ideas are to make this work for OUR kids honey"
Then shut up and LISTEN.. really listen...
It's coming across almost in my view as role reversal here..
She is trying to reassure you that "things will be all right honey"......
You are now in the more feminine position because I hear you saying things the woman normally says... like.. "yea but I'm worried about this and worried about that, and you won't talk to me and I am hurting, and I need closure"
those are normally female type emotions..women aren't attracted to men who demonstrate those qualities.. Haven't you observed that in your life? Women LOVE emotionally strong men in times of trouble...
JCred,
So not sure if you read through my whole sitch. I'll summarize what happened and the phases of contact (outside of counseling when applicable) to put it in perspective
1) BD ~3 days (beg, plead)
2) W leaves ~3 days (text messages out to wazzoo)
3) MCS 'drops' rope ~2months (NC)
4) MCS sends stuff about kids school, no replies
5) W informs she bought house/wants D ~1 hour (single phone call)
6) MCS confronts about OM ~2 days (lots of calls as story unfolds)
7) R talk by W and MCS ~3 days (W 'hangs' out with Family for weekend)
8) W says schedule MC for Reconciliation ~1 week (NC)
9) W says @ 1st session, not interested in Reconciliation (NC)
10) MC (mediation) once a week for 30 minutes ~2 months (NC)
11) W says MCS witholding info about kids (Kids text messages)
12) MCS drafts 'temp' ground rules to S ~1 month (NC)
13) W moves into house ~2 weeks (NC)
So here's the stuff that I intentionally did not pressure her on:
So, no separation agreement, she bought a house, it took her from Oct to Dec for her to get her stuff out of house, take kids every weekend, she just separated out expenses and pull money out of our accounts w/o discussing at all.
So that's where we are. I don't see much pressure, its all been on her terms. The first piece of pressure is the kids schedule and maybe that's it, she's been used to none and then I dig me feet in about the first issue that she needs to interact with me on. But its about perception, I get it.
So, no pressure.........
Ummm, yeah. I'm literally blank w/o sacrificing things that I feel are best for kids. (like just telling her to do whatever she wants and make her own schedule)
MCS..
It's coming across almost in my view as role reversal here..
She is trying to reassure you that "things will be all right honey"......
Holy Hanna.....THAT'S IT. Although, I think opposite of what you say. Knowing W, we are both really driven, independent people before our M. Once we got M, I could see us falling into slightly different roles, even though I always felt we were equals, she has said she didn't.
I've always been the emotional rock in the M. Other than now, I hardly ever get rattled, never lose control, difficult emotional sitch? MCS would handle. W would not go to funerals, because she said she didn't like the feeling of being there...I digress.
This has been confirmed by a few close friends to both of us on things they saw in our M.
Bold statements, I know....but its what she said at BD that I see is what the key is....
"MCS, I feel like I've always lived under your shadow"
"MCS, I feel like you're the boss and I'm the employee"
Even a friend said to me "MCS, W put you on a pedestal in everything you did"
Well, post BD, wallowing MCS thought about these and never figure out what she really meant.
Well, I can see in our M, I did have that role; W even admitted it to me when we were working the 'reconcile' weekend. This was the time she said she got 'caught' with internet chat stuff (about 14 months ago.) "MCS, when S5 had problems at daycare, I had to send you, because I couldn't handle it. Everything was collapsing around me I realized that I wasn't focused in the right area, the kids." (well that led into the affair, so I don't get the second part of that statement) (but looking back this was the one time she told me she was unhappy an unknown to me were all of these things that I had no clue about)
Well, now she has taken her stand on it and left the M. She wanted to 'free' herself from MCS.
THEN.....
I look at 'how' she's doing things and feel she's making emotionally unstable decisions and not thinking things through (WAW, 1 BR appt, House, etc.) ......which when I comment makes her feel that I'm trying to re-establish my former role, pushing her away. or just not dealing with things that are emotionally difficult at all (going through house, discussing kids, not seeing MCS at all)
THEN.....
I use the guise of the kids emotions as a scapegoat for my own emotional stability (not fully, but sure lets go with it) W sees this and is still comparing herself to MCS and now she's the emotionally stable one. Its what she wanted all along.
So, maybe that's what happened tonight. She got the opportunity to get control of the whole situation because of me freaking out. That's making her feel good about herself (and that's really what I want for her.) I know in order for her to be happy (in our M or not) she needs to grow and this is the first step.
I hate to say it, but the blow-up was a little premeditated on my part. Once I got into it, I couldn't stop it; but I made a stand that I was no longer going to just try to accommodate her every move.
So, it may look like I'm all over the place with this. But for the first time that I have seen, something changed the way she was approaching this whole situation. It's always been passiveness and avoidance about really anything that had to do with me, but yesterday she reached out and tried to resolve something that she saw was wrong. I'm not sure how this affects any DB prospects, but it accomplished what I was looking for. Some way to begin to establish some relationship with W as co-parents.
I realized in her message to me, it was the first time that she took accountability for what she did to me and was seeking what I needed to move on. Bad DB on my part, but it's one of the first times I've seen an action that wasn't selfish on her part.
Again, I needed to do something. Our relationship (even as parents) was getting farther apart as time went on and this seems to show me that she's realized that we can't be that way forever.
Thoughts? 2x4's?
I will get back to you.
I have some things going on.
We will help with a plan to get you back in track. I started a man cave thread. I want to invite you to stop over.
So, went to IC and also talked a little with MC today.
Both didn't think the letter captured how I felt. My IC said to me, why are you still trying to take a tact of her not harming you in this? Tell her what you need. I'm not sure what that is. A part of me wants her to say "MCS, I am responsible for this, I have been living this life for over a year and intentionally pulled the wool over your eyes. It was my decision to leave and my decision to split up the family" but that's just my emotions speaking right now
Interestingly, the MC told me W called and was actually telling him she wasn't going to go to counselling (mediation) anymore, so my assessment of last night was incorrect. He said he had to convince her that we need to be able to talk about the kids.
Ugh, I don't know...feeling pretty hopeless about our M right now. I know I'll be okay through all of this, I think it may be me being forced to detach more.
My IC said to me, why are you still trying to take a tact of her not harming you in this? Tell her what you need. I'm not sure what that is
That may be a place to start.
Throw some thing out there. What are some of things you think you need right off the top of your head?
So, have some more time to post now. A couple things that I learned today, probably one of my best counseling sessions
1) As you guys said here, IC put it in a different light, however they are both the same thing I'm struggling with. MCS is having trouble separating out our R and our roles as Parents. It's true.
2) happy with MCS that he is starting to express anger and also realizing that MCS had very little to do with the sitch and how it transpired.
3) That MCS catering to her emotionally is getting MCS nowhere (from a parenting perspective) and MCS has been doing that to try and hold onto our R
4) W feels M is over, but MCS doesn't
5) W is not acting mature about her decisions, but MCS can't force her to act that way with trying to apply logic and common sense
6) MCS is still trying to trivialize or explain away W's actions in order to protect himself that M is over right now
7) MCS is trying to grip at straws that W is uncomfortable with her decision to leave the marriage
Throw some thing out there. What are some of things you think you need right off the top of your head?
So, idk, but hers things that are what upsets me the most, in no particular order....
- I had no chance to work on the R, W was deceptive for a long time and lulled MCS into thinking things were okay
- I'm angry that things that W blamed about our M and me over the last year were things that were actual the things causing her A to be more difficult.
I asked her to not be in the phone as much (MCS controlling) I suggested she go into work on her days off, if she was overwhelmed with stuff to do (MCS not respecting her Indiv. Time) she told me I tracked her on the find my iPhone (MCS controlling) Upset she only went out with her friends by herself 2-3x per month (MCS controlling)
-I feel I've let my kids down in keeping our M together
-I'm hurt that she didn't feel she could tell me about any of her struggles
- I don't trust her about most stuff right now
- She's lied and deceived me for over a year
- she used me to justify her A, saying I pushed her into it
- she used me to justify her Internet chats, saying I commented to her around that time that our intimacy had improved
- I feel hurt that she is shunning the people that love her and replacing them with people that are using her
- I'm angry she's identified it, yet still continues to harm another family
So, I'm all over the place right now. Not sure if I detaching or just done. I never replied back to that email since both MC and IC figured out I wasn't being honest with myself. My IC asked why, I flipped back to catering to her and apologizing? I know it's because I'm still fearful of I say how I feel it will push her farther away to just not talking about the kids at all.
I still love her and want to make this work out, but I'm just getting so frustrated with her behavior.
when she asked about what I needed for closure, it was the first time that I saw that she actually was looking outside herself at my feelings. So, I thought she got out of her fog and this was actually a thought through question. Then I found out that she called the MC (mediation) and tried to cancel, and that question was him telling her to do that (like when he told her to apologize to me.).so then that knocked me into thinking she's still in the fog, especially since I now see whatever is going on with OM is not finished.
I guess if I recognized my old W and she still was telling me this is what she wanted, it would be one thing. But what I see is totally different and not seeming to handle any emotionally challenges or conflict at all. At least not in front of me. That's why I'm confused.
She dropped off kids for today and as soon as they came in, they pretty much ignored her. She tried to get their attention and they just didn't seem interested. D4 gave her a quick hug when she asked, but turned right back around and they were talking with me about my trip. W had a box of stuff of mine and just kind of put it down, paused for a second that seemed like she was going to try and get the kids attention again and turned around and left. None of us really even acknowledged she was walking out the door. If I were in her shoes, that would have been pretty tough.
I still love her and want to make this work out, but I'm just getting so frustrated with her behavior.
I really, really wish you would let go of your expectations regarding your W's behavior. To me, and I'm no therapist nor vet, it is the center of your problem. You keep expecting her to behave a certain way and then you get upset when she doesn't. You give her all that power over you.
I don't know how to tell it to you so that it gets through. Let's try a metaphor. You married a dog and she turned into a cat. She's a cat now. She doesn't come when you whistle, she's not jumping up and down when you open the door and she doesn't fetch a stick. Stop expecting her to do all these things, accept that she's turned into a cat.
You come here and say: "I threw a stick and she didn't fetch it!" We could all tell you: of course she won't, she's a cat now. So your WAW is not going to feel guilty, she's not going to care about your emotions, she's not going to parent like before, seek happiness with you, etc. None of the WAW do. You need to shrug it off.
Or perhaps you need to think of it as a mental illness. Or an accident. If she had a car accident and was in a coma, would you get all upset that she doesn't reply to your questions? Even if she was replying to your questions just the day before?
You give an impression of entitlement, like she owes you something. She doesn't anymore and you don't owe her anymore. Every contract in the world can be broken. Your W has broken the contract. Yes, it's unfair. It's mean. It's illogical. BUT SHE'S BROKEN IT. She's not a dog anymore, she's a cat. You alone are in this M with the known set of rules. She checked out. She doesn't react like a W anymore.
This is barely above beer banter, but I think as an engineer you're used to the laws of physics. You can rely on them. You're used to a predictable world. Now this is the most unexpected thing and it's touching your very core. It's very hard to accept that things can change so radically, especially for bad, arbitrary reasons. When you argue with colleagues over a technical solutions, you can use the laws of physics to win your case and crush their illogical arguments. In your sitch, you kick and scream for her to re-apply the well-known reasons for which you committed to her. You apply the laws of M. But she doesn't abide by them and, the sad fact is, she can.
The good news, perhaps, is that she won't escape the laws of human nature. She'll feel the sting of her bad decisions sooner or later. Hopefully, it won't come from you otherwise she'll blame you. But life will teach her a few lessons sooner or later. Get out of the way.
I really, really wish you would let go of your expectations regarding your W's behavior........You give her all that power over you.
Yeah, I'm starting to see that this is the core of my problem and its causing me to get angry. I don't know how to drop these expectations totally. I think if I do, I'll see this person in her that I really don't like. I think I use my expectations to trick my mind into not dealing with reality, of what she's doing to me and my family. I 'expect' her to act a certain way, because in my mind it gives me comfort that my W is still inside this shell of whatever she's doing right now.
However, when the expectation isn't being met, I get angry. Fact of the matter is you guys see that anger, my friends see that anger, but then I fear to show her that anger, because I feel it will push her away. I changed that this week and it did push her away. I can't hold this stuff in anymore, its eating me alive. Its changing me to a place I don't want to go.
I need to fight the cause and not the symptom. Problem is, I can see if I do that, I fear it will be my point that I'm done in all of this. Maybe that's what I'm fighting, that I don't want her.....and I won't admit it to myself.
You give an impression of entitlement, like she owes you something. She doesn't anymore and you don't owe her anymore. Every contract in the world can be broken. Your W has broken the contract. Yes, it's unfair. It's mean. It's illogical. BUT SHE'S BROKEN IT.
Yes, you're right. I do feel entitled. I feel entitled, it was called marriage. In a marriage, she owes me and my family the opportunity to work through this, she owes us the truth, she owes us to be freaking nice and friendly in a time that everyone is hurting because of decisions she made.
Mozza, I'm typing this and just don't know why I'm still in this.
I'm a religious person and marriage is not a contract for me, its a commitment and a covenant. She's treating it like a contract. If it was a contract and I saw her for who she is right now, and I didn't 'expect' her to change or snap out of it, I would cancel the contract. Even the covenant of marriage, I have due cause, but I've been holding onto the fact that I still love her as the reason that I'm still here. Its just right now, I don't think she loves herself. If you can't love yourself, you won't let others in to love you. You asked me about empathy, that's where it is for her right now.
She doesn't love herself and she's trying to find how to get it. If I keep that in my mind, it keeps me going.
Man, I'm all over the place....I feel the last week or so that I'm at the crossroads.
This is barely above beer banter, but I think as an engineer you're used to the laws of physics. You can rely on them. You're used to a predictable world. Now this is the most unexpected thing and it's touching your very core. It's very hard to accept that things can change so radically, especially for bad, arbitrary reasons. When you argue with colleagues over a technical solutions, you can use the laws of physics to win your case and crush their illogical arguments. In your sitch, you kick and scream for her to re-apply the well-known reasons for which you committed to her. You apply the laws of M. But she doesn't abide by them and, the sad fact is, she can.
This is very true, I will be coming back to this paragraph a lot.
So, Mozza will be mad at me on this; but I can see that I messed up DB today.
She came and picked up the kids. D4 and I were in the middle of putting Lego's together. W came to the door and walks two steps in, like normal. D4 ran over to her to say hi and then this conversation started between her and D4
D4: "Mommy, come look at what Daddy and I are building"
W "No D4, I'm fine here"
D4 "Mommy please come look" (starts pulling her by the hand)
W "No, I'm not going. I'll have to see later"
D4 "Come on mommy" (now D4 is on the ground with her feet up against the wall trying to make W move)
At that point, I had enough. I said:
"W, just go in and see the Lego's. She just wants to show you"
So W looked at me and walked in to see it. It wasn't my place to say anything, but this is part of my frustration when she's doing it to the kids.
So, then we were getting their shoes on them and D4 comes up to me and gives me a hug and says "Daddy, I don't want to go to Mommy's; I want to stay with you"
I just said, "No, D4 you need to go to Mommys, I love you very much"
Uggh.....Why can't I just ignore this stuff???
I really, really wish you would let go of your expectations regarding your W's behavior........You give her all that power over you.
I 'expect' her to act a certain way, because in my mind it gives me comfort that my W is still inside this shell of whatever she's doing right now.
Im curious MCS, save your W telling you she loves you and wants to make the M work, how do you want your W to act? What would you like her to do? Just be friendly around the kids?
Maybe that's what I'm fighting, that I don't want her.....and I won't admit it to myself.
Do you really not want her or are you just saying this? Ive said sometimes I just wish we would just figure this out and if its a D, then its a D. But in reality, thats really not what I want at all. Don't say stuff you really don't mean.
I'm a religious person and marriage is not a contract for me, its a commitment and a covenant. She's treating it like a contract. If it was a contract and I saw her for who she is right now, and I didn't 'expect' her to change or snap out of it, I would cancel the contract. Even the covenant of marriage, I have due cause, but I've been holding onto the fact that I still love her as the reason that I'm still here.
Kinda along the same lines, but are you just in it because you're religious and you don't feel like you should break this covenant? Or are you in it because you really love your W, would do anything to make this work, and are working on yourself for you?
She doesn't love herself and she's trying to find how to get it. If I keep that in my mind, it keeps me going.
So keep this in your mind, and keep working on yourself. Continue that PMA. Have your goal in mind and work towards it.
Keep your head up MCS, here for you!
Everyone,
Sorry that my posts are all over the place recently. I'm not sure if I'm 'done' or just detaching. Any help with that would be appreciated
I do know I'm feeling things (that are polar opposites) that I haven't felt since the sitch started: anger then opportunity, resentment then confidence. I've been thinking about what type of person would be compatible with me, started thinking about how to look at core values of other people. The overall sorrow and depression is going away. I'm still upset, but not sure if its because I want to hold onto my marriage or because I'm scared of the uncertainty of not being married.
Like I said, I'm all over the place.
Im curious MCS, save your W telling you she loves you and wants to make the M work, how do you want your W to act? What would you like her to do? Just be friendly around the kids?
I would just like her to act similarly to how she has been for the last 15 years. Not in the respect of being married to me, but just as a person in general. Its hard to explain, but it truly is like she has 180'd from the person she was, in just about every aspect. Its not just me that sees this, my SIL told me that W is totally different.
When I talk to her, she won't even look up at me or the counselor most of the session. Avoids making eye contact. She's shut out nearly all of her friends, her family, etc.
It really seems like she is a wreck inside, but is trying everything possible not to address it which is changing how she acts. Its mind reading and cliche', I know, but both times that counseling got really tough emotionally over the last few months that he talked to us individually, when I got back in there; I saw the person I knew in her eyes. Then when we started to talk, it was like she put the game face back on.
Do you really not want her or are you just saying this?
And this is where I'm all over the place.....I know I don't want the person she is today. I have absolutely nothing in common with this person.
I do want the person that I hope is still inside, trying to get out. I saw that person when I confronted her about OM for a few hours. She said stuff about herself that she needed to work on with an IC that was spot on. But then a couple days later was back to how she's been the last couple months. Other than that, like I said above, I see it in her eyes when something emotional comes into play, but then its shut back down.
I just don't know who 'she' wants to be, I'm not sure if she does either. So its weird and pretty derogatory to say, but my MIL used to say that when W and I started dating, I totally changed her. She was happy and content. But before MCS she was selfish, mean and angry.
I never gave this much thought, I know she had a rough couple years before she met me. But, during BD she said she has become someone that she's not. Blamed me for it, but I wonder if maybe she was chasing something all these years and never was content with what she had become. IDK, that's what causes me concern.
The whole marriage thing is where this comes into play. I'm not staying married because I'm religious; but I am still in it because this is the 'worse' of better or worse. That's where my patience comes into play. I know Sandi2 says that they start getting out of the fog when they start acting similar to the person before. Also, she told me OM was 'over' so that was moving me into this is how she's going to be from here on out, but now I see that R is not really over, I think this may still be fog/fantasy. I'm just at the point that I don't know where she's at. Still in the fog or this is the 'new' her?
I really do love my wife and pray that she is lost right now.
I'm trying to work on myself through all of this. Its actually that I see that the Mr. Nice Guy is what is being worked on. I've always been confident, but been a sucker for adapting my personality to whatever the 'status quo' is for the situation. Like Mozza said in his post, to avoid conflict. That's part of the difficulty I've had over the last couple months. I had to stop going in and just apologizing.
- I had no chance to work on the R, W was deceptive for a long time and lulled MCS into thinking things were okay
of ourse you had a chance to work on the R, throughout the whole R you had a chance! We work on R throughout the R not just when times are rocky. You had not DB then, you know better now, that an R needs work even in the good times. MCS own the fact that you were happy lulled into thinking things were ok.
- I'm angry that things that W blamed about our M and me over the last year were things that were actual the things causing her A to be more difficult.
You can be angry about the A, but seems to me anger is not useful. You will keep tripping over your anger, and it prevents growth. Detaching will move you from anger.
I asked her to not be in the phone as much (MCS controlling)
did you ask or did you order? w when you spend key time on the phone then I feel upset, I would like you to spend x, y and z time with me and the kids.
I suggested she go into work on her days off, if she was overwhelmed with stuff to do (MCS not respecting her Indiv. Time)
As long as you did not order her to work then she could have offered the two finger gesture. W choice. As far as it is then validation is better, W, you are overwhelmed at work do you want to talk about it? Yes, I see, hear etc, what would you W like to do about it?
she told me I tracked her on the find my iPhone (MCS controlling)
Did you? If you did then that's prying snooping and not good. If you snoop you get poop. I know others believe otherwise but snooping is not good as a way of life.
Upset she only went out with her friends by herself 2-3x per month (MCS controlling)
her choice! Unless you physically stopped her or made a barrier for her going out. GAL is important to all of us.
-I feel I've let my kids down in keeping our M together
an illogical feeling, and controlling MCS, who says it is up to you alone to keep the M together? Are you in control of W, you know the answer.
-I'm hurt that she didn't feel she could tell me about any of her struggles
her choice!
- I don't trust her about most stuff right now
- She's lied and deceived me for over a year
- she used me to justify her A, saying I pushed her into it
yes, however it was her choice to go to an A! Ridiculous suggestion and I know you understand that wayward behaviour is completely inexcusable
- she used me to justify her Internet chats, saying I commented to her around that time that our intimacy had improved
this makes no sense to me in any way I read it.
- I feel hurt that she is shunning the people that love her and replacing them with people that are using her
your feelings not hers! You have no say and no entitlement to any say in this
- I'm angry she's identified it, yet still continues to harm another family
again your feelings, anger, not your sitch, not your place to judge or comment. Her conscience will judge her in the end, not your anger. You have better things to do that be angry MCS. Deal with your own sitch.
MCS, I can understand why you are trying to change your sitch. A number of the feelings you own are for others to own. Let go, detach. Righteous anger is an entitlement only for the self.
Be forgiving, move from a place of understanding and love, take that stance for your children. Please use the love of your children as a bridge between you and W and not as a barrier. Children come first ok? You and W are of lesser importance. Tap into that obvious love and joy as a father to extend warmth to their mother, especially in the presence of your children. In no way should children prefer mum to dad or visa versa, let go of this anger and move to peace. Resentment will eat your soul, it will erode your spirit and prevent you from becoming a man only a fool would leave.
MCS, you can do this. Lighten up, let go of the resentment and detach. You do not have to forget the harm nor an infringement of your barrier. If you and W ever reconcile or co-parent this will impede your progress.
Dearest MCS, be more at peace, enjoy your children and let go.
Stillness
Vanilla
Yeah, I'm starting to see that this is the core of my problem and its causing me to get angry. I don't know how to drop these expectations totally. I think if I do, I'll see this person in her that I really don't like.
your choice not to like W, but you need to find things in W that are positive, she is the mother of your children!I think I use my expectations to trick my mind into not dealing with reality, of what she's doing to me and my family.
MCS! It is your mind and your expectations, change it. Have no expectations. W is doing what W needs to do for W, your family is also her family too? I 'expect' her to act a certain way, because in my mind it gives me comfort that my W is still inside this shell of whatever she's doing right now.
Your expectation, your comfort. You have control over this adjust and adapt.However, when the expectation isn't being met, I get angry.
Your expectation, W has no requirement to meet your expectation. Is anger serving you here? W is who W is.Fact of the matter is you guys see that anger, my friends see that anger, but then I fear to show her that anger, because I feel it will push her away.
You are right that you feel this in my opinion but it is her choice to withdraw.I changed that this week and it did push her away.
Self fulfilling prophecy then. It's your anger for you to get help with. I have observed that anger originates from fear so generally that needs help. MCS have some help for your anger. If I were W then I would not want to be near an angry person, no matter how justified they or I believe that anger is.I can't hold this stuff in anymore, its eating me alive. Its changing me to a place I don't want to go.
Urgent practical help is needed. And anger management, this is not good for your physical and mental health. Exercise may assist you as an emergency measure.I need to fight the cause and not the symptom. Problem is, I can see if I do that, I fear it will be my point that I'm done in all of this. Maybe that's what I'm fighting, that I don't want her.....and I won't admit it to myself.
To my mind there is little point in making any decisions until you are calm and in control
You give an impression of entitlement, like she owes you something. She doesn't anymore and you don't owe her anymore. Every contract in the world can be broken. Your W has broken the contract. Yes, it's unfair. It's mean. It's illogical. BUT SHE'S BROKEN IT.
Mza I so agree with this
Yes, you're right. I do feel entitled. I feel entitled, it was called marriage.
I could write a whole thread on this! Why should W fulfil your entitlements in M?In a marriage, she owes me and my family the opportunity to work through this, she owes us the truth, she owes us to be freaking nice and friendly in a time that everyone is hurting because of decisions she made.
No! And it is W family too, and inclusively not exclusively. MCS, excluding W will backfire on you. W is the children's mother work on inclusivity in that area.Mozza, I'm typing this and just don't know why I'm still in this.
I'm a religious person and marriage is not a contract for me, its a commitment and a covenant. She's treating it like a contract. If it was a contract and I saw her for who she is right now, and I didn't 'expect' her to change or snap out of it, I would cancel the contract. Even the covenant of marriage, I have due cause, but I've been holding onto the fact that I still love her as the reason that I'm still here. Its just right now, I don't think she loves herself. If you can't love yourself, you won't let others in to love you. You asked me about empathy, that's where it is for her right now.
Mind reading MCS. Let yourself co-parent with W. W is not in tune with you and if you love W as I expect you do then get MCS help for this angerShe doesn't love herself and she's trying to find how to get it. If I keep that in my mind, it keeps me going.
Mind reading MCS. W seems to love herself well enough, I hope so as then she can love her children. MCS apologies for two posts and not one, fat finger again.
Please get help for your anger issues, this is important as you move forward to co-parent your children. This is something that will connect you and W for life, yes I understand that you may be angry and that you feel justified in it. It is over running everything including detachment.
Vanilla
Vanilla, Mozza, TLEE,
Thanks a lot for commenting on here. As you can see, its a interesting time for me. I think I need to get over this to fully detach, I'm feeling like the detachment is here, but I think I'm fearful to let it take hold, because I'm worried if I'll be able to go back to her if I do. Its pretty much, I fear if I detach then I won't be able to love her. The anger is coming because I'm trying to hold onto those last little pieces of "how" our former relationship (kids) was conducted and refuse for myself to acknowledge that even that part of our relationship needs to change. Does that make sense?
I post here much more negative stuff than actually is going on, so it probably clouds things because I'm usually on here when I'm feeling down about the sitch and myself. I look at this anger and how I'm writing it down here and its quite the opposite from others that I interact with, most see me and wonder how I'm taking this so well. That's really because of these boards are truly my sanctuary and you guys tell me what I need to hear and not what I want to hear and I appreciate that.
So, thanks....
Here's my struggle with anger....you guys see it more than others and I'm using you all to figure out how to work this out in myself before it starts to take hold with others. So don't fret too much, I'm not in a bad place; there's no holes in the walls or things broken, I've been cordial to my W. Its just I'm pushing the envelope a little based on how things have went over the last 5 months and how I'd like to see our co-parenting go for the future. That's the big struggle here, we both are trying to establish that relationship as parents, yet neither of us are willing to compromise right now.....
A couple things on my anger.....
As I was going through this a couple months ago, my IC said she was concerned about how I was dealing with S, OM, W leaving, House, etc. I asked her why. IC said because she saw no anger in me, I keep justifying her behavior away and just had empathy for her. She said she wasn't sure if I was just burying it down because I was holding onto the fact that I wanted this to work out.
She said to me, you are a heckuva nice guy, genuinely concerned with others before yourself and are trying to do everything possible to save your M. But these are W's decisions and you can't take accountability for them.
Then I see how my transition away from this approach of not dealing with her decisions (that affected me or the kids) at all was to utilize my expectations on her to try and control the anger that I was suppressing. Its funny, the last couple weeks my IC said I'm growing and she's glad I'm finally expressing my anger and everyone on here is saying its preventing my growth. No one is right or wrong, its just I think the objectives are different.
I guess the difference is not whether I'm angry or not right now, but how its affecting my interactions with others. Unfortunately for you, this board is my release of it. Most everyone else is not seeing it at all.
My issue last week was that when the MC saw that she was retreating, I didn't stop. Also, I had I dropped that OM's GF still didn't know what was going on, so W lied to me, so sensitivity of that overshadowed the two things I was trying to discuss with her. How she 'expects' me to communicate with her about kids and how we are going to address the kids emotions.
So, a quick post (for me) on something that happened the other day....just to put some things in perspective....I'm darned if I do, darned if I don't.
------
School had been canceled due to weather, I used to send W a text about things coming from the school office, but she told me that was me overstepping, because she got the emails too...Also, work for both of us was canceled, so we both were not at work for the day.
So, we had made plans earlier that W was going to pick up kids after school because I was going out of town during the day for work.
I had IC in the morning and decided I didn't want to just call W to work out how to change plans because of what she's said to me before.
So I emailed her almost 2 hours before I needed to go and said "W, I have the kids with me since school is closed. I'm getting picked up to go to the airport at XX:XX. I can have them go over a neighbors if you can't pick them up before then, just let me know"
I waited 45 minutes and got no response. So then I texted her. "W, I sent you an email, we need to coordinate kids pickups since I'm leaving soon to go to the airport"
Timestamp showed she read it right after I sent it. So then I waited another 15 minutes to see if she responded back.
So, now I'm within a half hour of leaving, I already took the kids to the neighbors (who wasn't too happy because she was the 'go-between' when W wouldn't see me at all and doesn't want to see or talk to W right now. But neighbor said it was okay.)
I finally called W. I said the situation and first thing she said to me sarcastically "Well, this isn't much notice. I guess I'll try to head over that way now."
I had so many things that I wanted to say, but my response was "Yeah, the snow put a wrench in our plans"
So, you can see, that's how I've been dealing with my anger with her most of the time.
MCS, sorry about the crappy interaction today and I can definitely understand your frustrations.
I was wondering why did you choose to email your W instead of text in the first place? To me, email is something that is used when its not immediate and someone can take there time to reply (since they don't check it as often). Text is much more immediate. For something like catching a ride to the airport, I feel that the 2 hour advance email may not have been the best choice since you have no idea if she even checks her email that often.
As far as the text/call afterwards, as long as you were not rude on the phone, I thought you did nothing wrong. In this case, you actually had to be somewhere and needed to know what was going on with the kids.
Have you ever tried talking to your W calmly and telling her that this puts you and the neighbors in a bind when W and you have issues? Personally if I were the neighbor, I would feel that my generosity would run out...like you said, I don't want to be the go between between you and W. I feel that is a very awkward place to put your neighbor, unless you are good friends.
Sorry your W is not being considerate at all, pretty typical of WAW. Hope it all worked out ok
Our neighbor actually is a really good friend of ours.
So as far as texting, in the past I texted her about somethings and she never replied back. When I asked her why she didn't reply, she said unless it's n emergency, I should email her exclusively. That's part of the problem, she won't tell me the ground rules instead choosing to criticize me no matter how I communicate. Not my problem though, kids came out okay in all of this. That's why I didn't say anything to her about the incident.
MCS
Detachment, oh!
My friend MCS you haven't got it yet! Why do you feel detachment is distance! Why do you feel letting go is floating free?
Rethink.
Detachment means letting go of the outcome not letting go of the goal. You can still want to DB, you can still want to R and can work towards that. Detachment means trying a 180, GAL, LRT or whatever and if it does not work move on.
So you could have email/text "I have left the kids with our good neighbour X as I am being picked up and am going to the airport. She will contact me if you haven't collected the kids by Y o'clock and then I will make other arrangements"
MLC, some guys and girls are detached and still working towards M. Look at V, if V tried to interpret every twist and turn of her H, she would be in an insane asylum by now. That does not mean she isn't standing for her M.
If W responds it's her current mood, if she doesn't she left her phone in the loo, it's out of charge, eaten by the dog, she is eating a giant Easter egg. So what, why are you trying to control W, and if not controlling W your reactions to W? But I would think a text like that would sort it out and stop her pressing your buttons.
Let go, it's time, stop fretting, let the past stay in the past.
V
If she responds it's her current mood, if she doesn't she left her phone in the loo, it's out of charge, eaten by the dog, she is eating a giant Easter egg. So what, why are you trying to control W, and if not controlling W your reactions to W?
Read this multiple times. I think it is extremely applicable. Best to you MCS, have a good flight!
Vanilla,
Comforting as always. This person that I'm becoming, the angry person is what I need to stop. I've never been this way. What you said a couple weeks ago about judgment and expectations is what I need to change to be a better person. I think that's why am struggling with this so much. I just don't know exactly what the difference between detaching and being done is, but what you said here really puts in perspective. I do want to be married and I do want to be married to my wife. I just don't know how to protect myself enough while she's pushing me away like she is that I don't get bitter. You guys are helping me out with that journey, I thought it was standing up for what I believe. But that is just going to make more angry when she doesn't do what I expect. So as I go through this I'm learning a lot and deep down in my heart I want this to work out. I want my wife to find the person that she is, and hopefully that includes me. Thanks everyone for bearing with me right now.
So, since you folks always get the bad side of me, since I'm normally on here talking about W,
I'm going to start posting some of the GAL that I have that I don't normally share. I do need to work on GAL with others, as most of my activities involve just me.
Took the kids bowling yesterday, they had a blast. We had those bumpers and a cool bowling ball slide for the kids. S5 ended up beating me on the 2nd game
Finished re-painting the Master Bathroom. I tried to get just primary colors (black/gray/white/yellow) in there. The color came out different than that dang little 2" square, but it still looks okay. I'll see if it grows on me. I can see that color selections are something that I haven't honed my skills yet
Finished the under-cabinet lighting in the kitchen
Went out to the movies today, drove 45 minutes to a good theater and found the next 4 showings were sold out. Thought about turning around and coming home then decided to say its GAL-day, I'll just drive farther. Saw American Sniper. If you like war movies, its powerful.
MCS
I understand that to start with detachment is so difficult and it took me a long time to even begin to detach. Whilst detaching from others including H I had to learn to attach to V and her life. There are many threads and discussions about detachment and I suspect many takes on it. MCS do that which works for you.
If its of any help this is V strategy steps:
1. Identify that there is a need to detach as a way of life. Detatch from others and attach to my own life
2. Go GAL, if busy and active then there is less rumination. Some PMA follows GAL but for V GAL was and is absolutely crucial
3. That's at a macro level but what about at a micro level? Go back to step 1, identify that there is abuse, spew, games, manipulation, button pressing, cake eating and decide that action needs to be taken at that particular point in time. STFU if unsure what to do, and handle later. just fluff it. Have to go to the loo, stroke the cat, cook dinner, dash to the shops etc. catch you later.
4. Get the emotion out, IC, this board, your own journal- avoid close friends relatives and definitely Facebook. Supportive detached friend is excellent. Find a role model, mine is Nelson Mandela, and I have read a great deal about him. On handling OP Hilary Clinton ticks boxes for me as well as Nicole Kidman. Princess Diana did some good things, being sassy dressing well, but went to open war; not good.
5. Cry alone and don't chase, follow Sandi guidelines on persuit. STFU in front of H and weeping and gnashing of teeth when alone or ( laughing until p point sometimes)
6. Breathe, breathe and swallow hard. Have a handy non committal line in back pocket.
7. Have a list of things to do and if ruminating go do something. GAL for you life.
8. Keep at it, have goals and measure progress
9. Set reasonable boundaries and enforce. Abuse prohibited.
Be fully attached to your own life, goals and GAL not Ws. It does get easier most of the time, each occasion that works encourages change in us.
Others wiser than me and further down the journey can advise as you travel along, this takes time and persistence.
Hope this helps although not perfect, I am a practical lass, to start with I also needed the rubber band on the wrist ping, and a reward when it worked. A V pamper or mini treat.
I am also of the opinion that GAL can be solitary but that is not the general view which seems to be that GAL needs others. But a hobby actively persued with others which has a solitary angle can be GAL, such as a swim or hike or TED or dressmaking or cooking. It can be turned to full on GAL by joining a club, taking a class, an online board etc....
Peace
Vanilla
I think that's really good advice from V - thanks V! I hadn't thought of detachment in that way. It can kind of feel negative, that you are 'distancing' from your WAS. But it makes it more positive to think of yourself as 'attaching' to your own life.
You may not be consciously 'detaching,' but it will follow automatically as you 're-attach' to your own life - reconnecting with parts of you that may have been put to one side, due to the R. This way, because you get some satisfaction and more sense of yourself, the outcome of reconciliation doesn't seem quite so central to your life going forwards.
Toots, Vanilla,
Thanks. I have been making up excuses for not GAL, filling my free time with solitary things, which cause me to think about the sitch the whole time. It's good as I'm not depressed, lack motivation, etc. I need to be social at work and home is always where I recharged from that..
I see there are things I enjoyed earlier in life that I gave up as I got older. Not because of M, but work, kids, etc. I've debated going back to some of those things, but find myself making excuses for why I can't.
No. 3 is one that sticks out that I need to identify on the fly and work on. I find myself getting pulled in and/or trying to analyze interactions I had with W on this board, both of which have zero value. I guess, to put my logic to it, I'm trying to learn how to 'work' with her as she's acting now, which is probably a cheese-less tunnel.
No. 4 above is totally this board, the IC and some select others. I'm a talker and have to talk things through, it's a godsend for me. I'm upset about the sitch, but always have felt there's a good place on the other side of dealing with this, with W or without.
No. 9 is what I need to work the most on. As you know, I've been getting boundaries confused with expectations. Like asking not to have OM around kids, expecting more Communication, etc.
So over in the TLEE thread, TSquared posted something about his sitch and his W. It hit home in how I feel (and what others close to us have said) about our M. It was interesting, because he used some of the same words that W used on me. I guess the good thing is that W has identified it for herself when she left and could be working through what she needs to in order for us to get a chance to R.
Also, footnote to this week. I took my ring off the other day. A lot of people ask me about why it's still on. However last week, IC questioned me on it and used it as an example of why W and I are in totally separate places right now with regards to our R. Her statements were good, but were part of what cause my musings on here.
I tried taking it off a couple months ago and it didn't feel right, I broke down after about 1 day and decided to put it back on. It's different now. Not because I'm giving up on M, but more because I see its not going to affect the outcome of my sitch. Taking it off was, for me, recognition, that I need to fully hand this over to God, a piece of metal is not going to do a hill of beans.
So, had first family counseling today. It went okay. Kids were all over the place, but that's to be expected for an office full of toys. They did say that they miss dad when their at mom's and mom when their at dad's and also said they wish we would be together.
I asked about whether our normal session tomorrow was still on, in which W replied; "this is getting really difficult balancing this and work." I think I know what that means for future sessions.
So, on the way out, W and I were getting the kids coats on. S5 saw a picture of a broken heart on the wall and said "Dad, that heart with the crack is your heart because mom broke up with you and left." Well, wife heard this.
I said, "S5, Dad's heart will be just fine because God has a plan in this, don't worry"
Well, guilt is not going to do anything in this situation and it is mind reading, but I could tell that probably hit home with W.
I got the kids in the car and for the first time, W looked at me right in the eyes and gave a little wave as she was leaving.
Dang, just seeing her with the kids and us all together has set the detachment back and then this. Need to move onward and upward.....ugh
These encounters are the worst... Why do you think I cut off even lunch or banter emails with my WAW.
I noticed in your post that you focus a lot on how your W is probably feeling, but you don't really tell us the actual content of the FC or what you learnt? Anything of interest?
Yeah, there really wasn't anything too interesting to report back on it. He just took some blocks that had various feelings and had us all talk about the ones we picked. The whole exercise was a little too advanced for the ages of our kids. Couple this with Nerf Guns and My Little Ponies all over the place and you see what we had...
I tried to throw out when they were talking about missing us that maybe they could facetime the other parent, but the kids got distracted before I finished and I didn't want to push.
So, I would say that I was a lot more in tune with how W and I interacted with the kids. I'm not sure if it was this way prior to BD and I just didn't realize it, but it was weird. Almost like looking at parenting styles from a third person. I could see our styles were definitely different.
I saw that I took the role of the disciplinarian, even as they were interacting with W. That was our typical role in our M.
I've caught myself a couple times doing this even before now with kid swaps. Basically, W was asking them something and they were ignoring her. After a few times of her asking them, I said "S5, mom is talking to you and asked you to put that down." I'm guessing that is not a good thing to be doing in our current situation. Just like everything else, those are her issues to solve.
I do think it had an impact on the kids, not sure good or bad. We swapped the kids there and on the way home, both just sat in the car looking out their windows which is not normal. At one point, I asked them what they were thinking about and S5 said "You and Mom together"
Oh, yeah, one other thing. I talked to the MC before W and kids got there. He said that I couldn't let my frustration and anger show in front of my W. I thought that I had been doing an okay job with that other than last week. I know that he was not too happy what I did last week, but I told him it feels like I've been a doormat, catering to whatever she says or having her shutdown if not. I said to him that I've accepted the situation for what it is right now and not expressing any feeling of hurt or betrayal was eating me up in side.
Then he said, He would guess that there may be a little hope for reconciliation if we establish a R with each other about the kids and the sitch with the OM fades out. He said that would probably be 2-3 years before it could get mended. Yikes.... I told him that I wasn't interested in W until she could make some serious changes in herself first. He agreed that was the best thing.
Since wife canceled us meeting with him together tomorrow, I asked if I could see him myself. So I'm going to do that.
Thanks for the details, MCS. It's interesting that the MC went so far as to say that there are chances of R in 2-3 years. I don't think I've MC go there before.
It caught me by surprise too.
Mind reading right now, but he's only seen W and I after BD and frankly, there is so little that we have in common right now nor any type of semblance of the ability to communicate. I think the timeframe was him seeing that this isn't a repair for our marriage, but a total rebuild.
Now, like I said, he's only seen wife as she is today and not how she was before.
that was the purpose of my comment about how she would need to make some drastic changes.
So, all things considered over the last year, I've known my wife for quite some time and would say I know her personality pretty well. The way she's acting right now would be exactly how I could see it in a situation like this. The 'victim' role was a little odd, and has thrown me for a loop, but that seems to be a WAS thing. For both of us, once we have our minds made up, we dedicate everything we possibly can to make it happen. We've always been polarized in the same direction and that's why we had achieved so much. Now that we're in opposite directions, it's like a stand-off.
So, Mozza, like you. I guess it's time to detach and drop the rope. I'm still concerned about communication about the kids, but if I'm detached I'll be able to see the path much more clearly there.
I've said it before, I have no concerns about my own future with or w/o my wife. I've been thinking about my fears in all of this and it truly is only being with my kids 50% of the time. I think that's why I can't contain my emotions when things with them happen.
So, met with MC individually today. He's the only person that has talked to both of us since BD. His assessment was pretty grim.
He's talked to her one on one and she has been emotional about things while talking with him (has never been with me)so I'm not sure what she has said to him in private.
Anyway, he had some really interesting advice that I never thought that I would hear from a counselor, but I understand what he meant.....detachment
He said,
"MCS, as much as its tough to admit, your M is dead. There's nothing you can do right now, as she doesn't want a M."
"MCS, W is not going to think of anything else or future affects of her decisions while (pursuit or R) with OM still being in the picture"
"MCS, you need to stop leading with your heart in this"
That last one stung, but it didn't mean be a jerk; but detach from the situation and stop trying to yearn for a connection, stop trying to let her lead me by manipulating, etc.
Also, we talked about the kids. I think that he realized the emotional strain having them go through this has had on me. Its the one time I completely broke down. He told me from what he saw, they were doing okay. Kids have to go through loss at some point, I can't shield them from it (this is part of my struggle.)My logical mind still sees this loss as preventable, but that doesn't matter now.
He said that this is a better time for the kids than later in life of having parents separate as the memories and any resentment of the situation on their parents is lessened as the grow up. He said the pre-teen years are where a lot of the troubles with kids and divorce come into play.
I don't know, feeling more detached right now. Like I said the other week, I don't want the person I see right now back in the M.
So, definitely feeling detached. I was a little upset earlier today, but getting this opinion from the MC has helped clear some of the fog.
I just sent her an award that S5 got from school for attendance. It would have been hours thinking about whether to send it just a few weeks ago. I simply took a picture, sent it to her and carried on with my day. Felt refreshing not to worry about it. I'm at a place that I did it because I wanted to, not because I felt she would feel one way or another.
I'm glad you're in that place. Perhaps the MC talk will be the shock that you needed to move to this next phase, like learning of A for Card29, meeting an interesting OP for others, and the D request for me.
What I may advise, from my experience, is that you note how you feel and how you got there, because it can also be fleeting and it's a feeling that can be useful to recapture. Somehow, you need to be able to find the way back there because it's definitely further down the path we're travelling. This is what detachment feels like and this is where you need to be to progress.
I think that is better than obsessing over what to do with it. B/c then, it consumes too much of your head space.
Mozza,
Yeah, I was thinking about that. The first part was the email that W sent last week asking about what 'I' needed for closure (which was the first time she's ever asked about my feelings) to then finding out it was as a result of the MC pleading with her not to cancel our sessions.
I realized, that trying to analyze everything is totally consuming me. Then when the MC said the stuff, I thought about how this is cheese-less because its not working for our sitch and just causing me frustration. The best thing I can do right now is detach and give her space.
Sandi2,
Thanks for checking in on me. Its been a rough couple weeks and I've seen that my frustration is getting the best of me. I still had in my mind that there is a miraculous intervention just around the corner. That's highly unlikely, W is dug in right now and whatever is going on in the R with OM has not fizzled out, even though I thought it may have been.
MCS
Precious friend, would love to see some GAL. PMA effected by lack of GAL I feel.
Look outward not inward and there will be movement.
The goal is to be the best you can be for you. You have moved a great deal in your thinking, keep that forward momentum going. This is just a phase and it will pass.
Go GAL
V
V,
Yeah, funny story about GAL. I was trying to think about things I could do and was thinking about having a Super Bowl (american football) party, but I was dragging my feet so I didn't say anything to anyone.
I got into work on Monday and two of my friends that have been helping me through this said that they made an executive decision and scheduled something for me and were worried about it. I figured something happened while I was away and they had to put a meeting on my calendar to go over an issue. As we were waiting for the email, I was saying that I needed to GAL and was thinking about having a Super Bowl party. They started laughing hysterically.....they told me that they had decided when I was away that they were going to make me have a party for the Super Bowl.
They told me they've heard about all of the stuff that I was doing around the house and figured that I wanted to show people anyway
I'm actually doing a lot better about the sitch, seems like I've pulled myself into a detachment phase. I can say now I'm 'feeling' that I want to R, but I'm okay with it going either way. I think talking to MC about the kids really started to reduce my fears.
MCS
Lucky you having friends like that!
A party, now there is an idea. Lots of extra GAL points.
Will be there in spirit, dancing the night away with you all, (and eating all the cheese....)
Vanilla
Yeah, just like here; I'm surrounded by awesome people.
We'll get some good cheese and honor those across the pond who see American football as a more boring form of rugby and for some reason keep our American attitude that football is what it should be called, even though it doesn't involve kicking a ball hardly at all.
Thanks, as you can tell MCS is getting closer to his old joking self. I've been taking myself way too seriously over the last couple months.
Edz
Does the BFT dance? Big G loved to dance, he adored being swirled around, tipped upside down, snuggling for the slow songs. Nesting on shoulders and having tummy tickled.
Did not like thunder, but loved a bath and hair drier. Attention!
Vanilla
MCS
I just put my pre-prepared post to Edz on your thread. Apologies I am very tired, but no excuse!
V
V,
No problem. I was reading up on your thread today and was very impressed with how you handled H tantrum. You are an inspiration, hopefully you get some rest.
So GAL tonight. Had a get together over a friends house. Went pretty well, had a good time.
Finding my detachment wavering a little. I miss my W, had a couple dreams about her and I last night, one that we were trying to reconcile, one that we were not. Oh well. Still doing good, I know there's nothing I can do right now. It might have been having a couple drinks made me think about the sitch more than I have been the last couple days.
Also, found out third hand that a friend 'already had someone lined up' for if/when I'm ready. That's not anytime soon, but a good boost to my confidence that I'll be just fine regardless.
Yeah, just like here; I'm surrounded by awesome people.
We'll get some good cheese and honor those across the pond who see American football as a more boring form of rugby and for some reason keep our American attitude that football is what it should be called, even though it doesn't involve kicking a ball hardly at all.
Thanks, as you can tell MCS is getting closer to his old joking self. I've been taking myself way too seriously over the last couple months.
American football has me baffled I confess but I love the big shouldered look. I played rugger at school and university, that was how I met H1. He was a hooker (like me, no joking hey!) always in a scrum, and trust me we gals were just as serious as the lads at it. But that was 40 years ago, so I do much gentler stuff like spinning these days.
So looking forward to 1 February when yippeee can exercise again.
I think I work harder now than I ever have, and actually for an older girl fairly fit but will do better.
Always wanted a go at cricket but never had the chance and to try the American sport of baseball would be great. Not sure my skills are up to that. Now maybe that could be this years challenge. Do gals play these or just cheer?
V
Yeah, women play baseball, just slightly different. In classic American fashion it has the same rules as the men but the ball is larger and you have to throw it underhand and it's called softball. Yep you guessed it, the ball's not soft either
But the players are? especially with lady bits, that could hurt!
V
Well, a good portion of women that play softball are not really known as 'soft' j/k
So, I went to see a Pastor from another church today. My (our) Pastor knew that W left, I talked to him BD weekend, but have not had any conversation with him other than during Church greetings.
So after S, W started to go to a different location, but under the same church that we went to before. So, many of the same people and the Pastors switch between churches
I've wanted to sit down and talk with our Pastor, but was hesitant about letting the sitch out of the bag. Mainly because I was worried/scared about W getting upset that he knew and using that as another thing against me. So since detachment, I've been debating about talking to him, especially because I'm not too concerned with the W's reaction right now if she found out.
My main questions (from a faith standpoint) were: If W wants out of the M and I don't; where does that leave me? Is DB good if W doesn't want it? Am I still honoring her as a wife even if I'm going against her (i.e. she wants D.) How do you get married in Church and D in a Courthouse.....is there closure in the eyes of the Church?
So talked with this other Pastor to see what his advice was. He had some really good points. Basically, gave the DB answer right off the bat, there's nothing you can do to change her mind right now. Also said that with W's behavior it seemed like she was in a rebelling phase, like she still is not comfortable with her decisions; but is trying to run from dealing with them.
Also, gave a huge shout out to all of us DB'ers, especially the men. He said he doesn't see men come in and try to R nearly as much as he would like, especially if W was involved in A. He said that all that we do for DB is favorable and we shouldn't worry that we are doing the 'wrong' thing just because our spouses don't seem to want it right now. Lastly, said that I should use my 'home' church and talk to them. He said that they may have a little bit better of an ability to focus the response on W and I, especially since we are in the same congregation.
So, I think I'm going to contact my Pastor and explain the sitch and ask some advice. I'm slightly worried that it would be seen as controlling by my W. The Pastor today tried to reassure me that while W may be upset at first, its the right thing to do and if she were to get out of her fog; would realize it was done from Love and not any malice.
Your thoughts?
IMHO, I don't think you should worry about it. It's your pastor just as much as hers and it's a faith thing. I wouldn't use your pastor to try and talk to W for you or anything like that, but it's hard for me to see why your W would be upset if you were talking to you pastor just for you, and not to convince her to do anything...
If your pastor talks to her, that's on him but you can even tell him not to say anything to her about it. I guess bottom line, do it because it's your faith and you want to confide in your own pastor and not to use him to talk to your wife.
TLEE,
Thanks, I may have thought it may be good for him to talk to her in the beginning right after BD, but by now I know I have no expectations of him talking to my W.
I guess, I was just concerned about my W's feelings. It seems like she's in such an uncomfortable place with how she's acting. OM and the A is a huge secret still and the few people that do know; she's pretty much shut them out from helping her get through this (parents, sister, BFF.)
She's still going to Church with the kids, so I was fearful that it would make her stop going.
Right after she left and before anyone knew about OM, she made a HUGE deal out of people knowing that she left the house and I got about 2 months of spew saying that 'I' was spreading rumors that she left and I had no idea why. (well, she did leave....and I had no idea why) She kept telling me it was a private matter between her and I and she didn't want it to affect her career.
Then after I (and mostly everyone else that's close to us) figured out about OM, I did realize that she had a right to be concerned. He is a co-worker and she was his 'mentor' when he first started. She wasn't in a supervisory role, but did have direct seniority over what he did on a daily basis.
MCS
I would be horrified if my pastor, (priest) discussed anything I said in confidence with H or anyone else at my church. Whether this is preferred is another question!
Mind you, I am a left footer, so the confidentially is traditional in my religion.
Frankly I have made it clear that whilst I will not be discussing our S with friends and relatives that I will not lie for H. Particularly about his drinking gambling etc........
If his behaviour affects me then I reserve the right to seek as much help as I need, GAManon, GAmcare (IC counselling for those affected by gambling), pastoral help, family support (which has been largely unnecessary) and DB etc.....
I also reserve the right if it affects my livelihood to take whatever action that I need to protect myself.
V
Frankly I have made it clear that whilst I will not be discussing our S with friends and relatives that I will not lie for H.
Yeah, I agree with this. While I'm not forthcoming, if asked directly I don't lie about what happened. However, I do try and explain my shortfalls in the M alongside that. None of us are infallible and I understand how W could have got into this sitch.
_______________________
So, I think we may have turned the corner. To R or not, I have no clue; but my short-term goals were to establish communication about the kids.
So had counseling (see I didn't put mediation in parenthesis) today. The MC talked to me first and was trying to get me to just talk to her about how much fun I was having w/kids (been there) and I pretty much said I'm done trying to cater to her and protect her feelings. I told him that I'm not going to be mean or nasty; but I'm done trying to tip-toe around everything. I told him I could no longer ignore the pain that she's putting me and my kids through and 'cover' it up. I told him I was done, the next step was her's. If she's comfortable with this level of communication, than fine, I can't push her to do more.
So, when we got together, the MC gave us two options. Talk about kids or talk about our feelings. I assumed he felt that it was an easy choice. Well, W asked which one I wanted to discuss. I knew which one, but I just sat there silent, I was debating in my head how to get out of these cheese-less tunnels. After about 30 secs, she asked me what I talked about MC about and I said I wasn't comfortable talking with her about it because it wouldn't be productive.
So, she said to go ahead and discuss it if I could. I said pretty much what I said above. At that point she said to me.
"MCS, I've been lying to you for a long time. I can understand why you feel that you can't trust or believe what I say"
I was shocked and then started to tear up. I then said,
"I've been hurt, but I've been trying to believe you. However, I've been in protection mode for me and the kids and what you say appears different from what you are doing."
and then we had a conversation........
The first in a while. A couple times I got angry, paused, collected myself and continued. A couple times she started to shut down, paused and then continued.
It was so nice to talk with her, the person that seems to have been hiding inside. Her resolve of the sitch didn't seem to waver, but we were doing what I've so wanted to do, communicating.
So it was bittersweet, I saw the person that I have known and we talked like we used to. I wished I would have seen a little uncertainty on the overall sitch and the S, but I'm taking what I can get.
All things aside, this is the relationship we need as parents and that has been my goal. DB didn't seem to matter today, or maybe it was DBing. Time will tell.
Also, I realize that right now Whatever OM is doing, he's still in the picture and if he is.....no reconciliation
So I need to stay detached. I saw the person that I married and I missed her all these months. However, she is still preoccupied right now. No use expecting anything else out of today.
I guess this may be the 'end of the beginning' or the 'beginning of the end' regardless, have some conversation is much better than the NC from the last 5 months. Need to see if we can get down talking outside of counseling. I suggested that today, but I'm not going to push any of it. I need to resist the urge to jump right in.
MCS
I believe this iis DB.
Just observe the glimpses of W, read nothing into it. 100% remember! Even in MC then this is so.
I am of the view that MC is wasted when there is an A other than for co parenting or care issues. I would restrict my MC to developing co parenting that and leave my emotions out of MC and would go so far as to raise a boundary on it, and not stray over it. It would be useful to agree this with C upfront I feel.
You have come a long way MCS, grown a great deal very quickly. I am impressed with your ability in this session to let W have control over her own emotions and reactions.
I know you can see this and realise it. You are holding W to account for W and V is your cheer leader, a very different position to before Christmas. There was a time when to his would not have been the case.
W and MC will sense this too, become the man only a fool would leave.
V
Fat finger syndrome again, posted too soon.
MCS, whilst I will not lie to protect H, what others think of H is their concern.I do not excuse or rationalise H behaviour. My role in H behaviour and our S is on a need to know basis, personal to those directly affected. Most who need to know do so but even this is limited. the others get the bald facts.
The S and your R with W, is personal to you both. Of course if you are S then it is a fact, if you can prove that W is in an R with OM then that too is a fact. Your view that W has her reasons for S involving you lets W off the hook is your opinion. Nothing excuses wayward behaviour MCS.
For example, I am selling my house that is a fact and the board is outside the house so that is ok to acknowledge to the world. The woodworm in the attic is a fact, the broken window is a fact. And I must disclose the last two to the buyer who is affected by the purchase, the agent and the L., but not to the world at large. The emotion that I have been unhappy here in my M is an opinion and something the buyer need not know, it is personal to me and H and my IC (and my DB board and Gamanon group on an anonymous basis).
If H says were are happily M then I politely point out we are S but further than that I am staying silent. If pressed then ' I want to work through this and am not ready to discuss at this time".
V