Day #23...
I woke up at 3:30am today and didn't get fully back to sleep. Again thoughts about my W. The stop thoughts and counting breaths helped but I had to do them constantly to keep the stray thoughts away. Noted that the emotions that came with the thoughts were not very intense. Not hearing from or knowing about her bothers me less but still bothers me.
...
Last night I asked S11 if he would call his mom. He said maybe and then did not.
This morning W called him as I was driving him to school. He asked her immediately if she was picking him up from school Wednesday and taking him to her aunt's house. She said she would pick him up and take him to me.
This is not what the schedule she set up currently says. I heard her say yesterday that we would follow this week's schedule as planned. I'll send her a text saying I agree with her schedule and let's stick with it.
Later she calls and I let it go to VM. She sounds tired... says she is at the old house. Says it's a mess with dirty floors and carpets, and there's some stuff in my bathroom I left behind. She wants to know if I had planned to come back and clean. She asks me to call. She then texts and asks me to call... it's about the house.
I had planned to go at noon to sweep and vacuum. Even so, I didn't respond.
Later, W calls again. I let it go to VM. She sends a text. Says she's going to go back to the house to clean up and vacuum. Says she'll be there at X time if I would like to help. She'll also clean up the back yard. Says thanks.
I don't respond.
I do go to the old house at lunch and vacuum and sweep like I had planned. I leave my key for the home and walk away. That will be the last time I go there. I feel good leaving. I leave before the time W said she would show up.
And I still haven't responded to W.
HP,
From my perspective, you're behaving quite petulantly by ignoring W's messages. You've been counseled to act cordially. Get there, dude.
As for the schedule, I would suggest that you draft an email to W and post here for feedback along with clarification about the car. It will prevent misunderstandings and assumptions. It's time for you to step up and firm things up with W.
HP,
I agree with Wonka on not responding. You could have simply let her know that you would sweep and vacuum. You don't have to get into a deep convo.
Curious to know what your "expectation" is by ignoring her?
HP,
What does not responding to W get you? How hard is it to let her know you'll sweep and vacuum? I understand not wanting to be buddy buddy and not wanting to talk, but things like taking care of the house, etc, imo, warrant a response. She's not asking for you to take her back or to have a R talk, she's trying to figure out logistics.
HP, not to beat you up, but I agree with the last three posters and wonder if there's any way you could salvage this somewhat? Is it too late to shoot W a text and tell her you already stopped by to sweep and vacuum? Before she gets there and realizes what happened? Or is it too late?
Thank you Wonka, Calibri, rppfl, and LITB. I did not DB regarding W today. I didn't even try.
With each one of her contacts today... I did a repulsed reaction instead of a "time to be cordial b/c it's my goal" response.
Thank you for asking what my expectation is by ignoring her LITB. That is a very good question and made me think about how I've been today and other days like this...
My acting this way doesn't get me anything. It's me rejecting her and not accepting her and wanting her to know that b/c that's how I've let myself feel since this morning.
This is not my DB plan... this was me hating her today. For her decisions... for changing the schedule again so now I have to step up to her again... for inviting me again to do something together to help her under these circumstances.
All that is wrong of me yes. And on a low hanging fruit day. Yes could have simply said... "Hey W I'm already at the house sweeping and vacuuming thanks."
Instead... later I texted... "Hello W. Went by the house earlier and straightened up a little. Let me know if you need anything else."
She said... "Hey thanks. I am here now. Will get s11 at x time."
This morning lying in bed for 2 hours... I left that feeling hopeless about my M. I don't know what she's doing now... What she wants or what she's thinking b/c we don't talk b/c I left and I don't talk to her. I'm irritated at another invitation from her to be in the same space she's in to help her under these circumstances. I'm frustrated she keeps calling me after I've made it clear a few times to call me only on S11 emergencies. She just called me again and left a VM. Now she want to rearrange the finances she agreed to... me taking the all taxes and her claiming just her own pay for the S11 tuition so she can maybe get financial aid. I've already told her I'm not leaving the tuition to her and I'm sick of this.
Ranting. I'm not doing the confident steady man at all right now. It's just everyday with her. I'm wearing down again.
Instead... later I texted... "Hello W. Went by the house earlier and straightened up a little. Let me know if you need anything else."
She said... "Hey thanks. I am here now. Will get s11 at x time."
Good job.
Given your situation, that she's still not working on the M, still with OM, that you have a six-month timeline, that your W keeps changing all that you've agreed, would it be a good idea to get a third party (mediator?) involved to set a few things in stone in a S agreement?
By the way, you could eventually give S11 a printed schedule very week so that he knows where he's going. It might reduce the change requests from W. I don't know.
HP,
There is nothing wrong with feeling the way you do. It is normal. As a matter of fact, I believe that it is healthy to process all these feelings, instead of shoving them aside. Healthy detachment is a process. It doesn't happen overnight. For me, it took nearly a year.
I'd rather you be real with us, than to paint a picture of what you think we want to hear.
Also, it is important to you remain consistent with your boundaries and agreements. You are doing a great job in that regard.
HP,
I'm not sure about others, but you're a few months ahead of me and are definitely setting a good example to follow. Some of us are definitely looking to you right now, keep going!
Any thoughts on a mediator?
Hello Mozza. I could print out the 3 week schedule W created as it is now. It is online and S12 is aware of it. She changed it in her first hour with S12.
Wait. I see now W has updated the calendar. Now I have S12 14 nights over the next 3 weeks and W has him 5.
OK... I just erased 2 paragraphs of rant b/c I see I'm angrily repeating myself and not moving forward. Onward then...
Email to W...
Hello W. I just saw your new schedule. I see you have him with me 14 evenings and you have him 5. How can we work together to make it more balanced? I understand you have challenges staying at your aunt's house. When you to find your own place?..
OK pausing the email writing. New terrible crisis...
W calls. I let it go to VM.
S12 immediately calls. I pick up. S12 sounds like he had been crying. Says mom wants to talk.
W comes on. She sounds like she's been crying. Says she wishes I would answer the phone she wouldn't call if it wasn't an emergency and she's having an emergency. S12's science project... the one I helped him put together during our move away from her to the condo... wasn't good enough. I didn't have his data on it in the right way... it wasn't in color like his fellows... and so S12 had a panic attack in school.
W is parked up the street and wants me to come downstairs with his computer. She says she will take him to a coffee shop up the street (b/c her aunt's is an hour away and I won't let her in the condo) to do his homework with him and redo his science data sheet.
I get the computer and go downstairs. S12 calls and says they've arrived. I walk out, S12 opens the door. I give S12 the computer. W says they'll be at the coffee shop. I look at W and I know I look angry. I say OK, turn and walk away.
This is horrible. I remember all the great science posters we've done before in the living room of our home. S12's work was always among the best. This time far from it. Something like this has never happened.
I won't work with her under the circumstances and she won't change the circumstances to work with me. So as the book says... I'm the one who has to change. Just suck it up and work as a team for S12. Smile and be cordial and friendly. It's up to me or all our lives are ruined.
Breath HP. These situations can get emotional. This moment isn't going to define your sitch. Take a step back, assess the situation, and then respond.
If this exact situation was happening to a fellow DB'er, how would you advise them to handle it(without the emotions)?
Text from W... "Hi HP. I am sorry. You seemed mad at me and I can see why. I did not mean to imply that you didn't guide S12 on the project."
She thinks this is why I'm angry. This is hopeless.
Maybe I'm crazy to be doing this.
Being real... I'm hurt and furious and exasperated and devastated.
I don't want this and this is what it is.
God how can I do this better when I CANNOT stand my [censored] wayward W right now?
Ok, in her defense, if I were your W, I wouldn't equate that you were angry with me/her at the moment with the S, but rather the science project. What would you rather her do? Just ignore the project and leave S12 to fend for himself?
I don't want this and this is what it is.
Is this really what it is? Or what you want it to be right now? Often, I find that we want one thing, but we do others. What we "want" sounds so nice, but the reality of obtaining what we want, may be beyond what we're able to do at the time.
Look. I get that you can't stand your W right now. I get that she's.......alot to deal with. I get it. Maybe I have an unpopular opinion, having been on the receiving end of a spouse's anger - BUT you cannot and should not blame EVERYTHING on her. Your moods, your thoughts, etc. Yes, she may annoy the [censored] out of you, she may have an OM, she may trigger all the anger in the world inside you, but how you react to her says nothing about her and everything about you.
You're giving her much more power than she actually has.
My perspective is probably not much different than that of Calibri.
I can't imagine that the ordeal with your S's project is stirring up this much anger in you. What is triggering it HP?
To be quite frank, you need to get yourself to a good co-parenting relationship with your W for the sake of your son. BTW, your son is watching and learning how you handle yourself in the midst of crisis. Be the man that you want him to be.
Really, HP. Why are you so determined to be so ornery?!
Do you have some fatalistic motives?
Have you been taking warm showers that's screwing up your head?
Here's a reminder from MWD's email blast.
1. Envision a positive outcome
There is no way that you can begin to accomplish positive change your marriage if you don't believe it is possible. Start by imagining what your life will be like when your marriage truly turns a corner. The more you can picture every detail, the easier it will be to eventually step into this picture at some later date.
2. Act as if you expect miracles to occur
Once you can imagine positive outcomes, reflect on how you will be behaving differently when they happen. Then start doing that right now!
3. Be kind, even if you think your spouse doesn't deserve it
You may be angry, disappointed, or even devastated by your spouse's choices and actions. However, rather than react to unsettling behavior, assume your spouse is lost and confused. Be patient, kind and steady and your efforts will pay off.
4. Focus on small, positive changes
Don't expect big changes overnight or you will be disappointed and it will make it hard to stay on track. Imagine the smallest change possible that would signal a shift in how things have been going. Then focus on that.
5. Promise yourself this will be a great year, no matter what
You can not control what your spouse does, but you can control what you decide to do with yourself and your children , if you have them. Take a deep breath and envision how you are going to make this a good year regardless of your spouse's choices.
6. Exercise your worry away
The most popular New Year's Resolution is to join a health club and exercise to become more fit. That is well and good. For you, exercise will be a lifesaver. It will help to assuage worries, feel good about yourself and increase feel-good hormones like endorphins. Go for it!
7. Do one new thing you enjoy
Don't become stale just because you are having a shaky time in your marriage. Novelty will stimulate your brain and maybe even your heart and help you have a more positive outlook about the future.
8. Make sure you have quality time with your children or other loved ones. Be present.
Many times, when people are teetering on the brink of divorce, their pain makes them become self-absorbed and staying the moment becomes and challenging task. You will never be able to do your children's childhood again, so do your best to be with them mentally when you're with them.
9. If you get off track, get back on quickly without self-blame
What separates the winners from the losers is not whether or how many times you get off track, it's how rapidly you get back on track. If you've veered from the Divorce Busting plan, hop right back on track without self-recrimination.
10. Do activities that help you rediscover serenity
Meditate, pray, hike in the mountains or watch a sky full of shooting stars. On a regular basis, do whatever it takes to bring you back to yourself. You and everyone around will benefit from your peacefulness.
HP, have been following your sitch and certainly can relate....
Maybe if you can take a step away from the situation and think about what may be best for your S in this specific situation it would be helpful?
Seems like maybe he was feeling a great deal of stress in the situation with the school project which I am sure is not what you wanted.
Is there anything you can do to help him and still maintain your core values and your approach with your W?
Just a thought, no indictment...... It is certainly tough and we are all doing the best we know how to in very trying times.
Thoughts and prayers are with you. Stay strong!
Yes I know. FWIW I'll explain...
The science project work happened at the same time I found out the extent of my W's PA and confronted her that I knew it wasn't an EA and let her know she was not welcome in the condo. Those were the terrible days of screaming and cursing and threats and lies from her.
One of her reason's for me not to leave with S12 was S12's science project... that I was making it more difficult on him by moving early or at all. I was now the bad guy. Then, when she got nice and transparent before the move... she would offer to help with the project which I refused. Then there was the move and the first week of her calling anxious how S12 was. There was so much going on directly related to this sitch that yes I allowed S12's project to suffer. That was my fault and right I can't blame her.
And yes what she remembers or acknowledges doesn't even matter. I have a few simple things to do when it comes to her so just keep doing them, STFU, and keep my emotions in check.
Yes that is a better way to look at it... how would I counsel another DBer to handle these interactions with my W. Seems so simple looking at it that way. Breathe and step back. If I had done that... her reactions would have been very predictable.
Like, when I looked at her angry a month ago and she said "What did I do to you?" She is not focused on my feelings unless they make her feel better and she forgets events that don't fit her preferred story so me getting angry b/c she can't acknowledge what I'm going through doesn't help me.
I know I seem determined to be ornery. Truth is my default reaction is to hate someone who has treated me badly (and I've never been treated this badly) and react to that person accordingly and with force. I am learning now to look at the real reasons why my W is acting this way and to respond empathetically and humbly. I'm sure my life will change once I make that a habit.
Just keep going then.
HP,
Your patience is transformed in agony right now. It's very hard to deal with someone we want a little distance so we can breath.
Ignoring your W this way doesn't mean you are detaching. I think you are just trying to hurt her, punish her for all the pain you are feeling. Maybe you need to breath and think twice about this because at the end of the day you will be the one hurt.
How that goes? You can't control your wife, her choices, actions, decisions... but you can control yours.
Also, I would like you to do your best to see yours and your W behavior through your kid's eyes. You need to be careful, you may have a 12 y old today but you will have a 16,17 in a few years. If you don't want trouble in a few, then think twice before showing so much attitude in front of you kid.
This wouldn't be to please anyone, it's your obligation as a dad to care for your kid and not create some wounds that he will have forever. It's not Bull****, it's what happen to people.
And if it's so bad to just keep being friendly, if you feel like giving up on DB, if it all lost purpose, then you can at least filed for Legal S - at least everyone will know their schedules.
This is a question I ask myself: - Are you ready to give it all up now? If the answer is yes, then go ahead, that is the easier path. But if you are not ready to give up, then calm down, bit yourself in a head and reevaluate what you are doing. Michele says in her DB book that yes, it is unfair that one S needs to do the hard work while the other one is giving up on a M, but it is you that wants to save this M, you are the one on these boards and it is you that needs to do the heavy lifting right now.
Think about HP, what is that you really want moving forward ( as much as you don't feel any hope, what does HP wants and how he can try to get there.
Hugs,
Pink
HP-
I was going to ask if you were acting this way because your W let you guys go without a fight? That she didn't give up OM and work on things with you. If, while you want things to work out, instead you were punishing her (either on purpose or not) because of her path.
I'm going to be honest with you. Right now you remind me of my H three months ago. After the BD he just became so angry. Intent to lash out at me for everything. Then he holed himself up in a hotel room and essentially didn't come out for awhile. He was hiding. From his feelings, from me, from himself. He's starting to get better, but he's stepping outside of his comfort some and working on things.
I'm not saying that you are hiding - ok, actually - I am. What are you hiding from? When are you getting out of the condo? Did you start crossfit this week? You have to get out and have some interactions with people who aren't your w. Otherwise you're going to get angrier and angrier.
Onward, ok?
Hello Calibri. You are very insightful. Your post hit me very hard.
It was monstrous to me that my W let me leave with our son. When I first told her we were leaving... she did fight hard in the only way she knew how... screaming and crying and threats. "You can't take my baby!" kind of things. Begging me to let her visit the condo, begging for Christmas together. Days and days of that. Even offered to fix our M... told S12 she would... then she folded, took it back, and sobbed.
Then she stopped.
Seems like she talked with her IC who seemed to say S12 and I were the priority and I was in the driver's seat and she should let me go. That somehow it was OK for us to get away from her. Agreed to everything. Then she stood there and let her family walk out the door. No screaming no nothing. Even said, if her business takes off, that I could take S12 to Florida and she would fly in now and then to visit. I can't believe that.
So many times she threatened to leave but she never did. Planned to live with us until the summer. Go on a spring break trip together. But she didn't have to break up her family to go on her way b/c I snooped and forced it and broke us up for her. What would have happened if I let her live here with us?
Now she's agreeing to not see her son on Christmas. Not see her son on his birthday. Suggesting 14 nights with me and 5 nights with her.
I'm angry.
Now with her new schedule this month... My crossfit evenings are gone. My Friday tango is gone. Now I have to consider asking S11 to stay at W aunt's just so I can GAL. He doesn't want to go.
And yes... how is W spending all this time?
How can I work with her Calibri? How can I act friendly after all this? How can I not truth dart her to death every time I see her? How can she stand to be near me or much less our son? How can she stand herself?
Yes I know... that's all mind reading and mind chatter and doesn't matter.
Just keep going and I will.
I'm tired Calibri. My phone rings and I'm tired.
Another request for help... another change... more money please.
Yes that is me giving her more power than she has.
It's just how I feel right now.
HP,
Now with her new schedule this month... My crossfit evenings are gone. My Friday tango is gone. Now I have to consider asking S11 to stay at W aunt's just so I can GAL. He doesn't want to go.
Take back your own power and assert your needs. I suggested earlier to compose a draft email to W addressing schedule, car and now money issues. It's always best to have it writing so that you all can follow and adhere to the agreement. We're standing by ready when you are.
And yes... how is W spending all this time?
So what?!
Another request for help... another change... more money please.
Yes that is me giving her more power than she has.
It's because you're allowing this to happen without saying a word and you're resentful?? Whose fault is that, HP?
Thank you Wonka. Back to it then...
Email to W...
Hello W.
I just saw our new schedule for S12 on the calendar. I see he is with me 14 evenings and you have him 5.
How can we work together to get a better balance?
I understand the challenges for you staying at your aunt's house and I know you will keep doing your best to keep S12 happy and comfortable there.
Also, please remember I offered to pay half for your rental cars for 30 days. That would make this the last week if you still need $150.
Finally, if you have an idea for paying S12's tuition on your own, please email me the details of how that would work so we can figure out a fair balance of our joint expenses together.
For now, please continue to pay your x% of our joint expenses. I'll let you know your part of our final bills from our old home and give you details of our move and storage costs ASAP.
I also have your storage key and details whenever you need them.
Thank you again W.
Businesslike and collaborative.
I'm just going to ask... having to write letters like this... after all this pain and insanity here... am I crazy to have faith in an R at the end of this story?
HP,
It's a start.
For sure, it needs to be worked on some more to get a bit more warmth. Your homework assignment is to go back to your earlier threads and look for posts to you where myself along with others helped you drafting responses to W that elicited more positive responses from her.
Yep, it's your choice to get past the pain and insanity. I did and things are better between Ms. Wonka and I. At one time, I loved her deeply and I want to continue to treat her with respect. So can you.
HP,
It sounds good, very business oriented and not offensive, just keeping things checked and getting to some level of agreement.
With this email, she can come back and say she does not agree with something, or she will agree and move on.
The bottom line here is that you gave her a strong resolution when you left, in my opinion it was DB by the book. It is LRT. Then she did all the screaming, but you post that she said she would be willing to work on the M/R.
You took the decision do not give her a chance. Once she saw that you put resistance, she let go. Would it make a difference if she would insist even further. This woman was married to you and maybe she knows you wouldn't back up.
Now you say you are frustrated with her actions. I know it's very difficult to deal with the fact that your W has OM in the picture. But, if you are trying to recover your R, work on your M, then it's time to face that it is happening and you may or may not have a chance to make her fall in love with you all over again.
That means you would need to forgive and forget. It's a very intense situation, but you will need to calm down and resolve what you want, what are your priorities, what can you forgive and what will you take aside for the sake of you M?
Let's face it. Most people here have partners that had, are having A, it's in our face and we feel worse then garbage, but if we are here, we need to get real and have a clear image that if we reconcile, there will be work to do, lots of wounds to heal, but it is possible.
When you just started posting, you were told patience is the key to success. Detachment is another weapon used here that has been working for many folks. It's one of the hardest things to do but we are all working towards to get better.
Center yourself, give yourself, be vulnerable. You need to work on your fear, anxiety and then as much as you write here to vent, it won't always show in your actions.
Being angry is not helping you. Pushing your W away is not working for you. Stop the stubbornness and reevaluated the reasons you came to this forum. Are you still willing to go the extra mile to reconcile with W?
I am not intending to tell you all you are doing is wrong, and that setting specific boundaries are not right. I think you are right. But you need to stand by your choices, if you chose to push her away, then you may have consequences.
What can you do that will calm you and give you some time to think about your whole sitch and set up all your priorities and even try to calculate the outcome of your every move.
Maybe you can share here with us all. Calibri has been your amazing coach, Wonka is giving you solid advice. Listen to people that all what they want is to help you and see you happier.
Do you like meditation? Are you reading some books to help you to focus on yourself? And, what is so wrong if your W comes to your condo and spend some time with your S?. You would have some opportunity to show you have been changing.
Did you reread Sandy's rules again?
It seems that lately you just want to blow it all up. Go back and start all over. Friendship says more then hate, even when we want to hate the WAS.
And HP, I don't say it just to you. As I write I am telling myself everything, word by word. I too, want to kill my H, maybe make a stew from his guts. But I think that until I am done, I have the faith things can turn around. Until then I will keep showing him who I have became and how it would be possible to have a new R/M.
Think about honey, you can do it. You are strong, you are just burned out, stressed out, give yourself some time to think.
You want to be OK with or without W.
(((((((HP)))))))
Pink
HP
It's a science project, the importance is how S12 feels about his project and if he can be helped with it. You and W are truly irrelevant on the project, can any assistance be obtained from a friendly at school?
Just for one moment think about this from S12 point of view
1. My science project!
2. Staying with my mum at my aunts
3. Crying baby all night
4. Sharing bed with mum (not keen on this as not so keen on my sitch)
5. My routine all over the place
6. My best stuff at dads
7. Mum quite oddly behaved sometimes (sometimes dad too)
8. I miss my dad and my room and my peace and quiet
9. Is it going to be ok?
Plus W has never been more vulnerable and alone. HP time for a charm offensive.
Loving thoughts
Vanilla
HPoirot: Would it help you if you imagined you were writing this letter to someone else with why who have a good relationship?
Thanks Wonka. Revised email...
Hello W.
I appreciate your putting together this new schedule for S12. I see he is with me 14 evenings and you have him 5.
Like I said, I'm willing to keep S12 more nights because I understand the challenges for you staying at your aunt's house.
Even so, can we find a way to get to 11 evenings with me? I could also use the 2 Friday's after next. Thanks.
Also, will you still need rental car help? If so, let me know. I'd be happy to give you $150 one more time.
Finally, if you have an idea for paying S12's tuition on your own, I would love to know more. Please email me the details and we can figure out a fair balance of our joint expenses together.
For now, let's continue paying our joint expenses based on our income ratio. We do have some final bills from our old home. I'll get you those totals plus details of our storage payments.
I also have your storage key whenever you need it.
Thank you again W.
Would it help you if you imagined you were writing this letter to someone else with why who have a good relationship?
Good advice from Wonka on homework to do some more work on the letter and from the above. It read very transactional to me which is more of what is not working with your W.
As at point from my first read of the letter: You pointing out the "data": you have him 5 days and I have 14 was a turn off to me. But I did like the idea of you asking for compromise.
HP, I truly hesitate to ask this.... but.....why is it you don't have a consistent parenting schedule? As in, it's the same every week, or follows the same pattern every two weeks? Is it a work schedule thing, or you are just trying to be nice to W by allowing her to choose every so often? Uncertainty about living arrangements? Something else?
I, my H, and my D12 can tell you where she's going to be every evening from now until mid-March, with a pretty good accuracy. The schedule is set, it's on the family calendar app, and for the most part H and I plan around it. I will take D12 any time H can't, but it's only happened once, and I've never asked him to cover a night that's mine.
Is your W resistant to that sort of arrangement? Are you? I'm not suggesting at all that's what you need to do, it totally may not work for you. I'm just curious how you got to what you are doing now.
HP, I think its well-worded, but IMHO and I mean no disrespect, but the way it comes off is that you and W are just trying to give each other S11 and neither one of you really wants him. I know this is not what you are trying to say at all. But just reading it...you're using words like..."I am willing to keep him" or "Can we get to less nights for me", "I could also use the next 2 Fridays off."
Maybe try something like "I appreciate you putting together this new schedule for S12. I see he is with me 14 evenings and you have him 5.
I am more than happy to have S12, you know I love spending time with him, and I understand the challenges for you staying at your aunts house. I do have a couple things coming up in the next 2 Fridays, so would you mind taking care of him for those nights?"
Idk, something like that. What I am trying to say is that, I know you love spending time with S12, and your son obviously loves spending time with you. Convey that to your W. Don't make it such a business transaction where it sounds like both of you just want him less nights so that you can GAL/do your own thing. Also, just trying to use words like "would" instead of should/could. I hope you get where I am going with this.
Also, one last note. Im not sure I would go with the "I'd be happy to help you with $150..." because lets be honest, HP...are you really happy to give that to her?
I thought your first draft regarding the rental car/$ was better.
When it comes to your S12, make it warm and fuzzy and agreeable with your W because its your son! When it comes to $, be friendly, but more business-like. I feel like you have it backwards in this post.
Just my 2cents.
Actually on second thought, like Happy said..you pointing out the data of S12 of 12 nights and 5 nights just sounds really awkward..why do you need to point that out? She knows how many nights you have him, she made the schedule.
Maybe...
"I appreciate you putting together this new schedule for S12. I am more than happy to have S12, you know I love spending time with him, and I understand the challenges for you staying at your aunts house. I do have a couple things coming up in the next 2 Fridays, so would you mind taking care of him for those nights?"
Something along those lines..
Some rewrite thought:
Hello W.
Hope you are xxxx. I wanted to check in with you on a few things.
First, I want you to know I appreciate your putting together a new schedule for S12. I understand the challenges for you both staying at your aunt's house and have no problem spending more time with S12, as you know I love being with him. Would it be possible for us to work together to achieve a schedule that works for us both? Nothing major, just wondering if we change it a bit.
Also can we finalize some of the recent outstanding financials? We do have some final bills from our old home. I was thinking it might be helpful if I get you those totals plus details of our storage payments. Plus, I am not sure how you are doing with the rental car...do you still need help? Let me know your thoughts on all the finances.
Finally, did you mention you have an idea for paying S12's tuition on your own? I am open to hearing your ideas and know we can work out the expense split together.
PS: Just a reminder, I also have your storage key!
_________________________________
I know this is rough and I do not know what worked in past exchanges or all the details: As Wonka said go back and see what worked, what WORDS work for her. But basically, make it more friendly.
What I do know is the drafts you have make it sound like you are trying to be friendly but are not friendly, you want your money and you want it now. And you are reprimanding her for 5 days vs 14.
Hello everyone... many thanks for all your wonderful advice and support.
Just to clarify... we just started living apart 3 weeks ago over the holidays. We did have a agreed schedule for the next 3 weeks of school. It was on a shared online calendar app. W came up with the entire schedule and I agreed. Then, on her first night keeping S11, she said she couldn't do the schedule. There started the issue.
Also, I did go back in my threads for letter research. That was VERY HARD on me and on PMA. Not just how scared and clueless I was... but the lies W said and how I believed and wanted so much to believe them. It will be a while until I can read my whole story.
...
W just called me. I answered this time. I had been reading one of her speeches from a couple months ago.
She said she wanted to know how S12 was doing. I said he's fine.
Not mad. Just even. Not very friendly though.
She asked how I am doing. I said I'm fine.
She said I seemed angry with her when she saw me earlier. Asked why I was angry with her.
She repeated how she did not mean to say I didn't do well with S12's science project. "You looked at me so angry. Why were you so angry with me?"
I said W I'm fine. A little irritation.
She started talking about S12... how he was sad about his project and about how it made her cry. How when I saw them in the car he had gone through a panic attack with her in the car. Then about how well he recovered and how they had fun and how he did great redoing his science project with her at the coffee shop. She talked a lot... for a few minutes... and in good sprits.
I listened. Said that's great. I didn't say anything else.
Long pause.
She said something like... "you don't want to talk about this?"
"Was there anything else you wanted to talk about?"
"Only the 20 things I've texted you about."
"Well, email me what you want to talk about and I'll get back to you."
"We need to sit down and talk. Have a conversation."
Longer pause.
"I'm going to get S12 ready for bed. I'll talk to you later."
I hang up.
Later, she emails me... "Hey here are the changes S12 made!" and a document of S12's revised data for his project.
Like nothing's wrong.
...
Just in this one thread you've all given me great advice... step back and breathe... be empathic... how you respond is about you... stop being ornery... think about my expectation treating her this way.
What is my expectation? What should I leave her thinking after we interact?
That I'm done and gone. Oh... and happy about it. I'm missing that.
So I'm dark with my unrepentantly wayward W. I have taken off my ring. I'm getting better at cordial just cordial. Sandi said she's reaching for conversation and tonight she seemed to try one when I picked up the phone. I've been advised being nice to my W does not mean I'm letting her take advantage of me. If I keep punishing her I'll lose any tiny chance with her.
But she has to know I'm angry. How can I be anything but angry?
I'm still missing the line between punishing and being firm confident moving on guy.
I'm just not getting this right. Maybe I'll respond to her email with some praise.
"Nice work helping S12 W."
Praise for my WAW.
I'll read all your advice again and I'll sleep on it.
I'll get it right soon.
I will.
Actually on second thought, like Happy said..you pointing out the data of S12 of 12 nights and 5 nights just sounds really awkward..why do you need to point that out? She knows how many nights you have him, she made the schedule.
Maybe...
"I appreciate you putting together this new schedule for S12. I am more than happy to have S12, you know I love spending time with him, and I understand the challenges for you staying at your aunts house. I do have a couple things coming up in the next 2 Fridays, so would you mind taking care of him for those nights?"
Something along those lines..
I like that TLEE86 thanks.
And thank you all for your suggestions. You are all so generous and wonderful to this old meanie. I really would be (more) lost without you and this wonderful board.
Some rewrite thought:
Hello W.
Hope you are xxxx. I wanted to check in with you on a few things.
First, I want you to know I appreciate your putting together a new schedule for S12. I understand the challenges for you both staying at your aunt's house and have no problem spending more time with S12, as you know I love being with him. Would it be possible for us to work together to achieve a schedule that works for us both? Nothing major, just wondering if we change it a bit.
Also can we finalize some of the recent outstanding financials? We do have some final bills from our old home. I was thinking it might be helpful if I get you those totals plus details of our storage payments. Plus, I am not sure how you are doing with the rental car...do you still need help? Let me know your thoughts on all the finances.
Finally, did you mention you have an idea for paying S12's tuition on your own? I am open to hearing your ideas and know we can work out the expense split together.
PS: Just a reminder, I also have your storage key!
_________________________________
I know this is rough and I do not know what worked in past exchanges or all the details: As Wonka said go back and see what worked, what WORDS work for her. But basically, make it more friendly.
What I do know is the drafts you have make it sound like you are trying to be friendly but are not friendly, you want your money and you want it now. And you are reprimanding her for 5 days vs 14.
Wow that's fantastic happy! Thank you so much! I will use something like this in the morning when I'm less hot after ice cold shower.
The bottom line here is that you gave her a strong resolution when you left, in my opinion it was DB by the book. It is LRT. Then she did all the screaming, but you post that she said she would be willing to work on the M/R.
You took the decision do not give her a chance. Once she saw that you put resistance, she let go. Would it make a difference if she would insist even further. This woman was married to you and maybe she knows you wouldn't back up.
Hello Pink. Just wanted to be clear on this. I would be nice for W to really offer to work on our M. The night that she did... it was to get me to agree to having Christmas together as a family. When I tested her on it by asking her to sned a NC letter, she went back on her word. She later denied responsibility for that whole thing by calling it her breakdown. It was an awful night.
Just to clarify... we just started living apart 3 weeks ago over the holidays. We did have a agreed schedule for the next 3 weeks of school. It was on a shared online calendar app. W came up with the entire schedule and I agreed. Then, on her first night keeping S11, she said she couldn't do the schedule. There started the issue.
Got it, HP. Thank you for explaining.
WOW...CONGRATS HP,
You are awesome, you will get this in no time. No point to get angry. You sound so much better just for slowing down and keep your boundaries in place.
Don't bit yourself up, you have all rights to be angry, you just don't need to blow out on W and push her away. But you did great and I am sure you will do even better tomorrow.
Congrats again!
Pink
HP, one last thought. I cant remember, but why did you take off your ring? Was it because you are angry/resentful and don't want to look at it anymore? Or was it because your W isn't wearing hers?
IMHO, it seems very rejecting if you took your ring off. Like...you truly are done. WAS' taking off their rings hurts us deeply, but this is there choice. In their minds, they are done, they don't want to work on the M anymore. We are supposed to be that rock, the lighthouse...I feel that by you taking off your ring, you are trying too hard to show W that you are "moving on/done."
I think there is a difference between showing WAW that you are moving on without her BUT she is welcome to join you, vs you are moving on without her and you never want her back.
Based on your attitude towards your W lately due to anger/resentment, and taking off your ring, I fear that your W may just be thinking that you are done and never want her again...
Your W is already angry. How do you think she takes it when she sees you without your ring? I know we are not supposed to care about what our WAW's think, and this should be about us, but everything you do needs to be strategic, asking yourself, is this helping me move forward with or without my W, but ideally with her...
Be that rock, that confident HP that can show his wife, that no matter what happens you still have faith in your M, but right now you are living your life for you. Whether she wants to come along is up to her, but you are not giving up. To me, taking your ring off is just..your done. I don't think we as LBH's can afford that..just my 2 cents
Id be curious to see what vets or former WAW's have to say about this...
TLEE,
I think it's alright for HP to remove his ring. Early on in situations, I believe there is a significant amount of fear in us, that we try to calculate our every move. Sometimes we do fine, and sometimes we stumble. The stumbling is inevitable. We learn as we go.
I wouldn't put too much weight into HP removing his ring. I'm more interested in the changes that he is making within himself. Not necessarily for his W, but for himself. Kinda like the oxygen mask in a plane. You put your oxygen on, before putting it on your child. Same thing with his marriage.
The ring will not make or break his sitch. The changes that he is making within himself will be the difference. At the very least, he will get himself to a happy place that is not dependent on the outcome of his sitch.
Hope this makes sense.
Hello Calibri. You are very insightful. Your post hit me very hard.
It was monstrous to me that my W let me leave with our son. When I first told her we were leaving... she did fight hard in the only way she knew how... screaming and crying and threats. "You can't take my baby!" kind of things. Begging me to let her visit the condo, begging for Christmas together. Days and days of that. Even offered to fix our M... told S12 she would... then she folded, took it back, and sobbed.
Then she stopped.
I can't believe that.
I'm angry.
Ok, but are you angry at her, or yourself, the situation, all of the above? Or perhaps, is the anger a cover for other feelings? Rejection? Hurt? inadequacy?
Here's the thing. Your worth, S12's worth - they aren't based on things like your W letting you walk out the door. They aren't defined by it. Your w stepped aside and let you guys go. It hurts like hell. But maybe, for right now, that's the best thing that she could do. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying it makes sense. W is not healthy right now.
I know how shitty it feels. I know how angry you must be. I spent so much of my childhood feeling equal parts angry, and equal parts of sorrow because my dad wasn't there. I saw him twice a year, maybe three times if he was healthy and on his meds. Maybe got four phone calls a year, again, if he was on his meds. The years where he wasn't on his meds? That silence was a kick to my face. I was so angry. Why didn't my dad fight to have me in his life? Why didn't he want to see me more? Why wasn't I good enough? It was BAD. BAD. But as I grew older, I realized I wasn't the one who was missing out, it was my dad. I felt sorry for him for missing out on how awesome of a person I am. I stopped focusing on the negatives. I realized that the lack of involvement in my life didn't define me. I realized, that my parents getting divorced? Was the best thing that could've happened in my childhood. My dad wasn't stable. He was unmedicated a lot. Knowing how hard it was for me with him living several states away? It would've been much, much worse had my mom stayed. But the most valuable lesson I've learned, and I'm only now learning it, and I think perhaps it could be applied to your wife. Maybe my dad didn't love me in the way that I needed it. But that doesn't mean he doesn't love me the best way he knows how.
Now with her new schedule this month... My crossfit evenings are gone. My Friday tango is gone. Now I have to consider asking S11 to stay at W aunt's just so I can GAL. He doesn't want to go.
No it doesn't. You can still crossfit. Most boxes have a room where kids can hang out while parents work out. S12 is old enough that he can go and hang out for an hour while you workout. Or perhaps he can have dinner with W while you go. People in my box bring their kids all the time. I've held babies while moms PR'd on their front squats. I've seen people strap their babies to them while doing the workouts. And if you don't want to go at night with s12, then go during the day. This is totally workable. You just have to do it. Stop with the I can't and focus on the I can.
And yes... how is W spending all this time?
It doesn't matter. It's not about her, it's about you.
How can I work with her Calibri? How can I act friendly after all this? How can I not truth dart her to death every time I see her? How can she stand to be near me or much less our son? How can she stand herself?
Honestly? Who gives a [censored] if she can stand herself or not? Stop trying to assign or expect how you would feel, to her. This is just my perception, but I think you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself to do everything right and friendly and with the hopes that the R might work out in the future. Would it be easier for you if you said, right now HP doesn't like his W very much right now and doesn't want a romantic R with her, right now? Alleviate some of the pressure you feel. Allow yourself time to process the anger. The hurt. Allow yourself to simply be.
You work with her by being civil.
You work with her by treating her like a human being.
You work with her by taking care of yourself.
You work with her day by day.
You work with her by simply being.
I know you are tired. But you didn't get this far to let it all crumble. LAbug told me on my thread that the hard work starts when we stop making excuses for why we can't do it, and when we actually do it.
You've got this.
Gosh HP, you've certainly sparked some responses here!
How about some goals for January on:
anger/detachment
co-parenting
GAL?
Toots xx
HP, just my pennies worth but you need to let go, I am in a sitch like yours but W left me with 4 kids. We will never understand how they justify it to themselves but they do. We need to spend less time thinking about what they have done and move on with our lives. WAS minds do not work like ours so we cannot fathom it.Try not to think about it. take care mate.
Thank you everyone for your support. This is a terrible time for us here and I appreciate your taking time to post here. I hope in some way this thing I'm going through helps you too.
Today is S12 science fair. He's to do a presentation.
He's the text first thing this morning from W...
Hi HP. I have been awake for an hour thinking of S12 and the science fair. While he is nervous about it and how he will present, he's also nervous about you and I being there together and if we will be there to support him. We are his parents and need to reassure him that we can be civil and be there for him. I realize you are angry with me, but for his sake you really can't behave like that with him around. Nor can I. We have to really make an effort. That panic attack was about more than the quality of his work. I think you must known that.
Please come to the fair today and please don't ignore me or act like you can't look at me. We need to behave like his parents and show him we are unified in our support for him. If you cannot do this then don't come. But know that you will hurt him by not being there. And more so you hurt him by not acknowledging me.
Can we behave better when we are with him? Can we be more respectful to each other when he is around?
This is very hard for s12 as you know but there are ways we can minimize the impact on our boy. Please help me do this.
S12 said he would like me to be there. Just be the person making the changes to be a better person then. Be the non-petulant non-ornery person who helps her do this.
So this is my test today. I go and be cordial and leave b/c I have to and it's the right thing to do.
I could write a book about what I want to say right now but there's no point. What I have to do is simple and my feelings have nothing to do with anything as they are on the shelf. I'm going to keep getting texts for help for years to come and I'll suck it up and do my best.
That's all.
I told S12 that I would go to his fair for a little bit today. I told him I love his mom, and it's hard for me to see her right now b/c she's choosing not to be here. He said he understands, and that I have a good reason.
I'm doing my best.
Hi H, funny my D13 is heading to her science fair for 4 days tomorrow. Go and be the better man, yes your W is hurting you but for S rise above it.
In time you angry/ upset will pass, times like this with S are memories forever. Take care, RD
I get S12 ready for school. W calls and I answer.
I say "Yeah."
She says "Hello?"
I say "Hello."
She says "did you say something when you answered the phone?"
"I said yeah."
"Thanks HP what a nice and polite way to answer the phone. I'm here. Is S12 ready?"
"We'll be right down," and I hang up.
On the elevator, we meet a nice mom and her son. Someone for S12 to get to know. We exchange warm greetings.
Walk S12 out to W's car. Open his door for him to get in. He has a few bags so it's clumsy.
W cheerily says hello. I nod.
She talks with S12. Asks me if I'll make the fair. I say I'll be there for a bit. She cheerily says see you later. I say OK, close the door and walk away.
She immediately sends me a text... "HP please stop acting so immature and childish. It's ridiculous and not good for S12."
I'm too angry.
What if you did everything the same but with a smile in your voice and on your face? She's right, it's hard on S12 for you to be so surly to her.
I get your STBX's point but I don't really care.
She doesn't care about the impact of a D. She can eject you out of her life because she doesn't feel like being M anymore. But somehow she can still tell you how to act? I've never sworn on this forum before but seriously, forget that.
HP- stop caring what she thinks, create some distance, detach. Right now you're super angry. She deserves it but you don't.
I've made three or four posts on your threads, I would have made another 100 but you can't see it. I keep saying detach and create distance. You keep agreeing and talking about space and going dark. Then you keep posting pages and pages about the nuances of every interaction with you ex.
Forget your W. I disagree with ANYONE that can read your sitch that says to be friendly. I agree with Sandi that you need separation. I agree with 25 it can't be permanent, but even she acknowledged it would be ok for you if YOU needed space. You obviously do. Son will survive, you're not the one tht did this.
I agree with not responding. I don't care if its rude. You drew out a boundary of emergency contact only. She is blowing you up. Don't let her. Continuer to distance and eventually the contacts will stop. The more you react the more fuel you pour on the fire. Let it go, get distance, post on here about your GAL and not 20 pages about a woman that walked out on her M. Maybe someday you can decide to be friendly, but maybe by the time you really detach you won't want to anymore anyway.
Morning.
Someone will give you some tough words on your interaction(s) since yesterday.
I am just going to say, what are you doing?
And here is an idea:
Who is your favorite actor or person of interest that you admire?
Be that person when you are with W.
For me, I like Diane Sawyer...have you ever seen her interview people or see her with people like her late husband..if not look at a picture of her and Mike Nichols. She does this 'lean in and hand on chin' that I think of when I think of someone who loves their H, even when I do not like my H and need to 'fake' it.
Tell us who it is and how you become that person today at the fair + stay for the whole thing! Just for today...just get by and then figure out what you need to do--go dark or detach or GAL or whatever you are going to do to.
Thank you. I'll go to the fair today. I'll focus on my son and look at him and smile for him and feel proud for him.
I am shaking right now I'm so angry. W again talking to me about how I'll hurt S12 if I don't go... if I don't treat her nicely.
I have IC tomorrow. I'll work on my anger. I don't want to be like this.
She immediately sends me a text... "HP please stop acting so immature and childish. It's ridiculous and not good for S12."
I'm too angry.
Then it's time to grow the F up, HP. Sorry to be so blunt, but I agree with your wife here.
You're a father, and have primary responsibility for your son right now during a VERY formative time of his life. You are WAY too far into this thing now, with THOUSANDS of thoughtful replies of advice to you . . . you simply DON'T GET to still be all petulant and all about HP here.
Where the hell is your "Papabear" within you? Time to summon him up, once and for all.
Starsky
She immediately sends me a text... "HP please stop acting so immature and childish. It's ridiculous and not good for S12."
I'm too angry.
Then it's time to grow the F up, HP. Sorry to be so blunt, but I agree with your wife here.
You're a father, and have primary responsibility for your son right now during a VERY formative time of his life. You are WAY too far into this thing now, with THOUSANDS of thoughtful replies of advice to you . . . you simply DON'T GET to still be all petulant and all about HP here.
Where the hell is your "Papabear" within you? Time to summon him up, once and for all.
Starsky
Please don't apologize. I got you.
We had a discussion about rings last year....my W removed hers within days of leaving. I kept mine on. I could see she was uncomfortable when she saw this. Our discussion last year about this topic concluded that there was no "right" or "wrong" answer. Its a personal choice. They aren't going to stay or go because you are wearing it or because you took it off. My 2 cents...
I agree with Starsky. Detaching does not mean ignoring! It does not mean being passive aggressive!
Take a breath and grow up. You are angry...we are all angry, HP. My WAH walked out on me a week after he said he wasn't going to. I never cheated on him-- I was depressed and had PPD. I didn't deserve to be treated how I was treated.
But how does it help anyone to be nasty to him? Every single day I see him I have to sukk it up and put on my happy face and treat him like a distant neighbor or co-worker I don't particularly like.
You are running a "business" (your son) together. Think of a co-worker you don't like. Do you get to say "yeah" when they call you? Do you get to ignore them? Do you get to act nasty? No, you act polite and then in the privacy of your own home you can tell them to F off.
Are you talking with your IC about this? It's so important for your son.
Here's the thing, HP....I totally get how you feel. My sitch is so very different from yours in that XH and I don't share kids. The "kids" involved in our M are his from his 1st marriage and they are all adults, so they are not keenly aware of our every interaction or even if we don't interact.
I feel much like you do. I am angry and I want him to know it and I feel this need to not be at his beck and call, though he seems to think I still should be in some respects.
However, having said that I know how you feel, I think that you are harming your sitch with S12 by being ornery and petulant. Your S picks up on all these things and even if he leans toward being on "your side", in the long run this will be damaging to him and could potentially hurt your R with him as he moves into his teen years and on to adulthood.
Please, HP, try to step back and detach and just focus on HP and S12. This is all easy for me to say, as I can't seem to detach either, even though my XH has already moved on to someone else and is living his life, but try it, HP.
My thoughts and prayers are with you.
HP, my STBXW comes by each morning to pick the kids up for school. That's the most that she does. Other than that she doesn't spend much time with them. When she calls I take a deep breath and answer pleasantly. She responds in kind. We are not actively trying to "save the M" anymore. We are just waiting for the D to finish. All we have left is to be decent parents and act well with our kids and each other.
Try to be in that space. Treat her with common courtesy and respect (even when you feel she really doesn't deserve it). Its just the same as you would give to others. It is not the same as being a doormat. No one wants that. Treat her like you're running a coffee shop and she stopped in as a customer. Smile, be pleasant. And go on with you day. I promise...your life will be so much better. Decide not to ride the roller coaster. They want a reason to act badly and push away....don't give her one.
HP listen to what these good folks are telling you.
You simply cannot let her keep affecting your emotions. One way or another the situation has to change. either you change you, and change for the better, or eventually an outside force will change you, and change you for the worse. The choice is yours right now.
Learn to handle the spew better and detaching will become easier. Once you detach more, the spew will be easier to handle.
So HP, you've had lots of advice and input here. Starting from tomorrow, what things are you going to change?
HP,
I am curious to know where the anger is rooted from. Admittedly, I have not read every single post in all of your threads. I have read many of them, and I gather that the anger was there before your found yourself in this predicament.
More specifically, I am curious if you possibly had this instilled in you from your childhood.
Perhaps take notes when you feel this way, and try to identify what triggered you to feel this way. At least you will have something to reference to see if there are any patterns you can identify.
I believe you mentioned that you are scheduled to see your IC. Obviously this is at the forefront of your journey from this point in time. Hopefully your IC can guide you or direct you on overcoming this.
Only way to the other side of this hell, is through it. There are no shortcuts.
HP,
For once, I'm in complete agreement with your W's email to you. You were behaving ornery and petulantly when interacting with W. Know what? It did not bring you closer to the goal and it actually had the opposite effect on W...turning her off.
It's time for you to start thinking positive and making positive notations of your interactions with W. It all STARTS with you. Start with thinking positive thoughts in how you view W.
W is:
1) A good mother
2) Is lost for the moment
3) Is trying her best
Your next homework assignment is to sit down and write down a list of her good qualities. And post here.
As for the draft letter to W, I think you've received excellent feedback and suggestions from others. How about posting your final version here before getting the green light to hit the send button?
Final piece of advice is to be the man that you've buried deep under anger. Dig him out from that morass...and PRONTO.
During the fair, stand next to W and be friendly to her. Maybe crack a joke. Laughter is a terrific medicine.
HP,
To get a more objective perspective of your own parenting situation, I strongly suggest that you visit suckerpunch's thread over in the Big D forum and read the exchanges between SP and Bets (aka Underdog). A lot of valuable information and insights.
OK starting now I am accepting my sitch and doing what I know to do. Focus on me and S11. Find my happiness today and GAL. Cordial like a co-worker with W when needed.
I'm off to the fair. This morning W asked for a new schedule change so tonight and tomorrow night S11 will stay with her. I will check out the Crossfit gym tonight.
And I got some work done today.
I'll post my letter later. W was driving a new rental so I won't bring up money.
Thank you again for the hard truth that I'm not serving myself or S11 the way I'm acting. I just have to grow up and accept I have no control here except over myself.
I'm off.
Sounds great...I hope you enjoy the fair.
Oops, I meant Peace's thread....not SP's.
Thank you Wonka, Calibri, rppfl, and LITB. I did not DB regarding W today. I didn't even try.
With each one of her contacts today... I did a repulsed reaction instead of a "time to be cordial b/c it's my goal" response.
Thank you for asking what my expectation is by ignoring her LITB. That is a very good question and made me think about how I've been today and other days like this...
Great listening and great insights are happening for you HP, even when you doubt them.
Of course, all the insights in the world are useless, if your behavior remains the same...
Start asking yourself routinely, as a matter of course, whether ANYTHING you want to say or do around or to or for your wife, or NOT do, is going to get you closer to your short OR long term goal.
Your short term goal, I think, is to learn to detach so that you can better live now and later, better interact with her.
Is that^^ a fair assessment of your current plan?
My acting this way doesn't get me anything. It's me rejecting her and not accepting her and wanting her to know that b/c that's how I've let myself feel since this morning.
This is not my DB plan... this was me hating her today. For her decisions... for changing the schedule again so now I have to step up to her again... for inviting me again to do something together to help her under these circumstances.
= for hurting you.
All that is wrong of me yes. And on a low hanging fruit day. Yes could have simply said... "Hey W I'm already at the house sweeping and vacuuming thanks."
Instead... later I texted... "Hello W. Went by the house earlier and straightened up a little. Let me know if you need anything else."
She said... "Hey thanks. I am here now. Will get s11 at x time."
This morning lying in bed for 2 hours... I left that feeling hopeless about my M. I don't know what she's doing now... What she wants or what she's thinking b/c we don't talk b/c I left and I don't talk to her.
And probably b/c she does not know what she wants yet. Stop mind reading. Look at your own confusion and now, imagine it x 10 and maybe that's how your wife feels. Remember that empathy plan your DB coach mentioned? Try to remember it more.
Also, there's something that helped me to stay calm around my h and his calls and believe me when I say, that I believed for far too long that If i said just the right set or words in just the correct order, THEN he'd wake up! THEN he'd come home and be happy and grateful and yada yada....as a L, I'm trained as a "wordsmith" to believe in the power of words.
So it was very VERY hard for me to see my verbal skills get me nowhere...at all. Especially when I was angry. OMG the more h saw my anger, the more justified he felt and the more he fled. Exactly the opposite of my goal.
So, I began to "turn it over to God". (Use whatever term or concept you have for your "Higher Power", or God or whatever. But for me, it's Him).
I'd literally take a shower to get privacy and not be overheard by my kids,
and I'd think the words, THEN say and THEN hear myself say, "God, I turn this m over to you. I turn my anger/pain over to you."
And somehow it really helped. Every time I did that and then saw or was called by h, i was much calmer. This helped me parent better too. And it helped me reach my short term goals faster...
My short term goals were to engage in some form of communication or talk or any decent conversation on the phone, and then be the one to end the conversation politely, and NOT have had a conflict...the only way for me to do that, was to turn it over.
Maybe you could try that.
I'm irritated at another invitation from her to be in the same space she's in to help her under these circumstances. I'm frustrated she keeps calling me after I've made it clear a few times to call me only on S11 emergencies. She just called me again and left a VM. Now she want to rearrange the finances she agreed to... me taking the all taxes and her claiming just her own pay for the S11 tuition so she can maybe get financial aid. I've already told her I'm not leaving the tuition to her and I'm sick of this.
Ranting. I'm not doing the confident steady man at all right now. It's just everyday with her. I'm wearing down again.
Stop letting her have all this rent free space in your head. You are NOT around her much at all and the fact is, if you were GAL more, you would not have so much time to spend fuming at her and feeling all the contact and non contact that you seem to feel.
You are making this harder than it has to be (and that's saying a lot).
GAL for real and let the dust settle. This is Not a linear process.
Gosh HP, you've certainly sparked some responses here!
How about some goals for January on:
anger/detachment
co-parenting
GAL?
Toots xx
I like this^^^^.
For ME,
Detachment requires GAL and that comes first...and the more I GAL the happier I became with my own life and the more I detached....and eventually I really came to believe that h's choices were ALL HIS Own and that whatever happened to him, I wished him well - especially with the kids,
but not at my expense. HP, you asked "HOW" can you ever really believe you'll reconcile when you feel this way.
2 comments.
1) you won't R, if you keep nurturing all the hurt and pain and anger and let it fester and poison your life (and your son's...)
2) I told my sisters my m "was over. I cannot see us getting past all this and at best, I'd give us a 10% chance of making it."
That was said, more than once, in 2006.
But I wasn't focussed on my h when he began to awaken. I was all about ME and the kids and having a positive future and making the best of it.
See, that's the paradox here. We, the LBSers are forced to make a choice.
We become bitter people or we become Better people.
If you choose to improve yourself then you'll GAL and detach and her behavior simply won't carry this ENORMOUS weight you attach to it. So yeah, it does get easier.
But it's not like this^^ lesson was a fast one for me. I spend half of my 2 "true DB" years, NOT getting it. Fuming and asking "WHY???" and "HOW CAN HE DO THIS??" at least hundreds of times.
I cannot even read my old posts now b/c I get so annoyed with myself (or upset at h all over again. NOT productive!)
So I pass on to you advice that I hope will save you time and get you moving faster.
I'll share some GAL ideas for you later but I DO believe you must mostly make it about new experiences with people who don't know or remind your of your w or the situation. Planning and taking a major trip to Italy, just with my kids, was a HUGE wonderful experience and maybe, maybe was an "aha" moment for h...he could not reach us when we were gone and oops, I didn't plan on his coming so no, there wasn't room for him at the end for "some of it"...(WTH? No, you don't join us on a trip we've planned for MONTHS at the last minute for PART of it which = us changing our plans for your work, again, etc) But I was polite and warm and thanked him for the ride to the airport...
I don't think most 'GAL should be solo things. Yes I worked out a lot -mostly alone and that was valuable "me time", and that helped heal me physically and spiritually and emotionally.
But it was the things I did with other people that kept me sane and feeling as if I had a future as a solo parent AND OR as a partner for someone...
and btw, I dated too. I'm sure H did as well. Mostly dating OMs reminded me of how well suited h and I had been.
But there were also OMs out there that I really enjoyed meeting and spending time with so the fact that they existed, helped me Not feel "trapped" into staying m.
I chose to stay m b/c I honestly felt that h would still make the best partner for me but hey, HP, I did NOT believe that in 2006. I really didn't believe it...
Just trust that this is a process that you cannot fast forward your way through...but you can make some of this easier on you and your son
GAL, detach, make the best of this situation because in the grand scheme of things, you are a lucky man.
For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. Oh, I had 3 kids then, including a baby (so you know I can't hear how you are 'too busy' to GAL).
Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Overcome that, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with all people, including your w.
Please note how few of these things cost much or were solo activities, but some were.
I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.
I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met very fun creative people. I got cast, too.
I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.
I learned to cross country ski, & became a better shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.
I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding. Made sure I got outside every day regardless of temperature.
Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
Went skydiving. Loved it so much I did it again. And plan on doing it again, soon!
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)
I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.
(Plus I'd just had our last child and needed to lose the baby weight. It was not easy to do, let alone in the dark, LONG cold winters).
Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs.
Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot).
Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of h's active duty & being a veteran myself.
(Wish I had joined sooner! Met two women who are life long friends to this day.)
Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking, which still yields benefits.
There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that do not cost a lot.
Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were free, or quite cheap.
I think the dance lessons you mentioned will help you a lot.
(Beware of having a crush on a dance partner, and the beginning of the OW fantasies - so that you don't have to face being alone and sober. )
Learn to face life on it's own terms and be at peace with that. Okay?
It's terrifying at first, but gosh it pays off big.
25,
Thank you for taking the time to share your story. . Especially the part where you thought your M had no chance. It is so helpful and inspiring to hear that.
Thank you so much everyone for posts on my bad angry behavior failure. I'm in a good place right now and can't even imagine why I let it get so bad. Being told by my W that I'm childish was a deep slap in the face. That and being told in red text to grow the F up. I am ashamed and I will use that feeling to change.
Went to the fair. Good PMA. Did great. W was greeting parents. She is very involved and popular at S12's school. Greeted her with smile. She stayed away from me. At the end, I was telling S12 I was leaving. He asked me about that and I said he would go home with his mom. He did not know that would be happening so he started to get upset. W came over and stood next to me. She told him they would talk about it later. I touched her arm and told her I was going back to work. Smiles. Walked away. No problem.
Realized in the handoff I forgot to pack S12's meds. Immediately texted W and said she could come by the condo and I would give them to her. Did not leave them at the front desk for her to pick up. She called before she arrived and I answered cordially. She asked me to bring one of his toys. I brought it and the pills down to her. Smiled at her and was cordial for real. Smiles. S12 was asleep so we were alone kind of. Said she didn't have his basketball for his practice tomorrow. I offered to go upstairs and get it and then did. Smiles. See you laters. Done.
I will keep that up.
...
Drove the to Crossfit gym to check it out tonight. It is 6 minutes from the condo. Barebones. Nice enough people. Nice enough fit young woman explained it all. I was not excited by the place or the people or to be outside and alone on an icy night. But the price is right and it's close and it's GAL and it's the only way forward so I'm committing myself to go to my first class tomorrow night. I have faith the excitement and interest will come in the first 5 minutes and become permanent soon after.
I'm also committing myself to go to a tango introductory class this Friday night. I know nothing about tango but have had an interest to learn. I feel fated to go as I met the teacher at the Champagne party GAL a few weeks ago. If my dance partner is as pretty as her... I will risk OW fantasies.
...
I am humbled with all the responses from vets and DBers I got over the past couple days to my terrible angry thrashing. It gives me hope that you take the time to encourage me, 2x4 me, and say I'm not hopeless and that I am moving in a good direction even with my backslides. I'm really hopeful that in the next few days I'll be feeling my sprits and energy rise in a joyful, healthy, and permanent way. I look forward to seeing that me in the mirror very soon.
I'll also do my homework Wonka and answer other posts from you wonderful people tomorrow. Thank you again for taking the time to share your thoughts here.
I'm in a good place now. I have not had a drink for a while. Not eating great yet but getting there. Feeling good about recommitting to enjoying my own picnic in my own sandbox. Ready for my IC tomorrow. Have a vision for where I want to be in my life by July 1. Getting back to it 100% in the morning.
Off to sleep.
Thank you all again.
Drink lots of water and eat well for tomorrow's workout. All boxes are barebones, and you'll get to know people. Go in with an open mind - you might have fun!
Post and let us know how you like it. I do it, TLEE does it as well. We'd love to have you join the ranks.
Is your head still a little bruised by all those 2x4s HP?! Well done with the fair and the general PMA around your W. Do you actually feel a bit different inside when you are with her, or just fakin' it 'till you make it? Or a bit of both? You said before that you would shake with anger sometimes. Has that changed? I was looking at the book Dance with Anger by Lerner in our bookstore yesterday. I don't know if any of the DBs have used that one, but it's well known...
It may take your W (and perhaps your S) a little time to 'trust' in the changes, so now you've started on a better path, the important thing will be to sustain the more positive interactions. She/they may be a little wary around you yet, but dont be fazed by that.
Good for you with the alcohol intake, but it would be good to see you eating better too, and making good things for your S to eat when he is with you...Edz is a bit of a role model on that front...
Hope Crossfit goes well! :-)
Role model? Very kind of you to say toots.
Not sure I'm quite enforcing the veggies enough yet (got to stop caving to making him waffles, strawberries and cream and/or bacon sandwhiches when he's here) but have made casseroles, croque monsieur (need to reduce his carbs a bit though) and roasts. Venturing into making myself a thai green curry tonight from scratch, may be interesting!
If you need a gal idea and need some more ideas on cooking why not look for a night course on cooking, of course you may be a chef and I dont know it in which case, erm, can I place an order
Just reminded me. A friend of ours with two daughters who divorced a few years ago always cooks with them. They make all sorts - meatballs, cornish pasties, spring rolls, spag bol etc. The girls are 9 and 11 now. But whenever I see them, they always tell me what they made with Dad last night. They really seem to enjoy it.
Fab idea toots.
I wanted to make sausages in pastry / mince pies with s over christmas but the timing didnt work out and he'd just done it with w so I didnt want him to think he needed to do everything twice so I made them ready for when he came here on boxing day.
We'll definitely be experimenting with some cookery adventures together though, reminds me I need to get him a step for the kitchen here!
Journaling...
Woke up 4am again this morning with mind wandering . Managed to get back to sleep a little. Thinking about getting out of bed and going for a run when this happens.
Was supposed to have S12 over last night but W requested a change. Wasn't expecting to hear from her then today and got ready to work and then later see IC and do Crossfit this evening.
Watched Joel Osteen today. A fabulous message about forgiving yourself and others. Talked about the story of Jonah... how he disobeyed God and still God was with him and answered his prayer. Really enjoying Joel. Maybe my new favorite show.
Did some research on a large Baptist church a minute from the condo. Saw that they have group and individual counseling for folks in separation/divorce. I will call to check it out.
...
Text from W. She wants to change the schedule again. Wants to drop S12 here tonight b/c he has bball practice late and is afraid him showering will wake the baby at her aunt's house.
I reply... "Hello W. I would love to have S12 tonight. I will be out tonight from X time so would you mind holding on to him tonight as scheduled? Friday too? Thank you."
Reply... "Sure. Thanks! He will be with you tomorrow night... correct?"
More reply... "Yes Friday is great. We need to talk about the Fridays you need moving forward. Thanks!"
More reply about how his first game is this Friday. So maybe I can't do Tango.
And more reply about how "I have to pick him up tomorrow" from school.
Noting how this exchange and her "telling me not asking me" and her fake exclamation points bother me.
I remember her ramping up her A as I started GALing in November. Like a competition... I had my mysterious outing then she had hers. That was a very painful time and lead to the PA confrontation and all the ugliness after. I don't want that to start again.
Nothing I can do about that. Just being honest about my fear right now. Makes me want to tell her what I'm doing. That I'm not going out trying to hook up and be irresponsible. That I'm working to save my life and do the great things I've always talked about doing. That's the guilt talking. Just focus on what I can change.
I have to write the letter then about the schedule before it becomes another war thing for her.
I know I got 2x4's yesterday for caring about what W does on her own time. That's why I'm pretty even right now and observing my feelings and examining why I'm having them and what I should do with them. Let them pass through and let them go.
Next time I can just say... "Hey tonight's not a good night for me. Can you please hold on to him. Thanks." Don't tell her I'm going out so I don't provoke her. Keep drama low and just detach.
I hope I didn't shoot myself in the foot again today.
Back to my day then.
A list of my W's good qualities...
She's good with S12
She's energetic
She's a dreamer
She's a deep thinker
She cares about kids
She's thoughtful
She's deeply emotional
She cares about her extended family
She's is a good friend if she likes you.
...
This is hard now. Things I would've listed were her in our R... like being warm and loving and supportive. I don't see her this way right now. Easier to list negative things.
HP, please excuse me while I speak of you in third person as I get some thoughts out here.
Maybe I am empathizing too much with HP, b/c the guy just wanted a break from her constant manipulation, roller coaster behavior, and breathing down his neck. He can't get away from her! Gee, I know I would need a long vacation b/c that woman could worry the horns off a billy goat.
I actually wondered if HP was very close to being a WAH b/c of the anger/resentment and the many times he said he did not like his W very much now (the way she is presently) and did not want to be around her. It appears as if he is being pushed toward her, while he is digging his heels into the ground. I think he is extremely frazzled and craves some time away from her. He needs that space to deal with his anger, hurt, etc. Call me a dinosaur, but I thought that was the purpose of a separation....to have time apart from each other, and then see if they can begin working their way back together, or not. And even though I do not disagree with anything that has been advised, it does seem it puts a lot of undo expectations or pressure on a person who is experiencing this pain.....to be able to act as if nothing bothers him while he deals with her non-stop texting, rescheduling on a daily basis, and who screams and curses at him. I mean seriously, how many of us would say, "No problem, I can work around anything you want". How many would be eager to answer all those daily texts from her? We wouldn't. We would not put up with that crap! Okay, maybe I should not answer for anyone else (b/c there are some LBS's that would gladly do all of the above), so I will say I would not put up with a spouse who does like HP's W. She is a manipulator! Why does HP have to smile, be nice, or even look at her? He doesn't like her! Why isn't being civil good enough? Why should he feel he must give her a response? (I know the answer, btw,
so you don't have to explain.). I am just asking, how many of us think we could do the same under his circumstances?). In a little time, yes. But the guy needs to breathe.
If that is childish, I guess I will join the kid's club. I just believe it is unrealistic to expect a person to be all sweetness and light this quickly. He has not had any peace since he moved out. He just needs some time......and if he doesn't answer her texts or calls, he gets nailed for it. He has told her a hundred times not to call if not an emergency. ( And I'm sorry, but I don't see a science project as an emergency, but that's just me. ). Then she uses the kid (like always) as her leverage, her tool to guilt HP, or to get her way....whatever it may be at the moment. If HP wants to attend the science fair, does he have to take off work an entire day simply b/c she has tried to make him feel bad? Does he have to make this a family affair? Can't he attend without being with her? Once the boy shows his project, can he not be free to go back to work? I don't know what kind of jobs you all have, but I can just hear me explaining to my boss how I need to miss work to be at my child's science fair. Again, that's just me. HP loves his boy, he just does not want to play like one big happy family with her right now.......and I don't blame him. She is doing the same BS she was doing at Christmas, pretending it's all for S12, when it's really for her intent/purposes. I am not against him showing up to support S12, that is not what I mean at all.
I will admit I have felt kind of sorry of HP b/c of the pressure he is under. I respect how honest he has been about himself, and how he continues to regroup, take a deep breath and try again to follow most of the advice he gets.
*******************
Well shoot, I just accidentally deleted about half of my post. Maybe that was my clue to shut up. So I will cut it shorter. To me, the more serious problem I see is how HP's W is changing the schedule on a daily basis. That will do a number on S12. HP needs advice in where to turn when he has an unwilling S to stick to the agreed schedule. Will the court help him if there is no legal S? Is there something else he can do? Some of you have experience or knowledge of these things. Please speak up and let him know. Someone said something about a mediator?
So, I began to "turn it over to God". (Use whatever term or concept you have for your "Higher Power", or God or whatever. But for me, it's Him).
I'd literally take a shower to get privacy and not be overheard by my kids,
and I'd think the words, THEN say and THEN hear myself say, "God, I turn this m over to you. I turn my anger/pain over to you."
And somehow it really helped. Every time I did that and then saw or was called by h, i was much calmer. This helped me parent better too. And it helped me reach my short term goals faster...
My short term goals were to engage in some form of communication or talk or any decent conversation on the phone, and then be the one to end the conversation politely, and NOT have had a conflict...the only way for me to do that, was to turn it over.
Maybe you could try that.
Hello again 25. Thank you so much for your posts.
Your "turning him over to God" struck me and I will do this. Joel Osteen was talking about this today. That forgiveness doesn't mean you're OK with what the person you wronged you did. It's how you take care of yourself and have faith that God will help you make things better... something like that. So you let it go and turn it over to God. I'm going to watch the episode again to let it really sink in.
Yes this is the big thing for me to learn. With my OW, for example, I held on to the pain of her leaving me for 20 years. The hurt only went away when she said she wished she never left me. I never really forgave her. I don't have that kind of time or opportunity now.
I will GAL to get my focus of the pain and improve myself where I am sorely lacking. I have not forgotten my failings. I will be humble and not get bitter.
I feel my W and I will be apart for a long time so it would be nice to date at some future point. Just casually for conversation and company. I miss that.
I do see I am lucky. I have a great opportunity to completely turn my life around emotionally, financially, as a father, and in my relationships. Keeping the frame on that and away from my real pain... maybe even harnessing the pain for energy somehow... is what I need to do even though it's hard.
I know I've been focused on my W. Even in my last post when she texted I immediately felt emotion about it. It's getting better. It's just incredible to me still that see won't listen to me. Now that I'm not spending time with her... I don't see those times when she shows how hurt or sad she is. She's always this all business miserable looking person around me. Or the fake smiling person she was at the science fair. Being detached and not dismissive will be a task for me when she's acting this way. I like her better when she's showing that all this is painful for her too.
And thank you for the GAL ideas. Your story and everything you did is remarkable. I will also get back to volunteering with kids. I did enjoy that very much.
Looking forward to that first almost normal day.
Onward.
"I know I've been focused on my W. Even in my last post when she texted I immediately felt emotion about it. It's getting better. It's just incredible to me still that she won't listen to me."
I think the best thing is just to have these thoughts and let them go. When I get myself on the....'I just can't believe he would do that track etc" it just isn't helpful. I wind myself right up. Now I just try and accept - it is what it is. I can't control him.
So, what do you do? Pleasantly maintain your boundaries when your W asks for changes to schedule. Interact civilly when you meet to exchange S or co-parent.
I partly get Sandi's thread above and I agree, showing off your best PMA right now might be a big 'ask.' I think it's more about getting to a place where you can interact in a civil and reasonably pleasant way, in the best interests of your S.
If you can do that, you have a foundation to build on. I think you're doing well HPx
HP,
What you focus on expands. The more you look at the negative aspects, the more negativity will come to you. It is important to notice the positives for they'll come forward.
I agree and disagree with Sandi on some points. At some level, I agree with her points about W's shifty patterns which is why I am PUSHING HP really hard to draft the email addressing the parenting schedule, car and money issues for they're continuing to feed into her having it all without any sense of loss.
Where I diverge from Sandi is being cordial and friendly with W in interacting with her because you do not want to continue to feed and fuel into her negative mindset of you. It doesn't mean that you must act like buddy-buddy with W.
All in all I think you did well at the fair.
Now HP....how about that draft email??
Hello everyone. Thank you for all these incredible posts. I am focusing more on the positives now. I'll be back later to reply more specifically to posts.
Came back from IC. As it's been a few weeks since the first visit, we just talked about my holiday adventures with W. Suggests I need to minimize contact even more.
IC was concerned with W behavior. Found it confused. I do agree W seems confused like 25 says even though I don't see that side of her now. I hope she is still seeing her IC.
IC was also concerned about stability for S12 giving W's frequent schedule changes. Wondered if W wanted to be a parent anymore. I can't believe that my W would leave S12. For example, she did supermom for S12's science fair project... completely redoing the one I helped him with. It was great and I should have told her good job.
My IC reinforced that there's nothing I can do about W and I have to focus on myself and my recovery. I made 2 appointments with her week after next. We will focus on my depression, anger, and inner strength. The A/D are not working for me yet she says. I will also call about that divorce support group at the mega church up the street.
In the meantime IC says I'm to ramp up my exercise. So I'm getting dressed to go to my first Crossfit class ever. I'm focused on having a good time.
It was nice, though, to again talk with someone who understands what is happening with us. She can also speak with S12. I will send a link to her website to W to see what she thinks. As the IC is an MC, lets see if W brings up MC again.
OK off to sweat. I really don't feel like it... but after years of working out I know that's the best time to go.
Thank you again everyone.
Crossfit. About TIME!!
Just a quick update.
I got through the Crossfit. They wanted to be easy on me but impressed I got it done at an intermediate level. Not sure of the terminology yet. I'll be back next week.
I did think of my sitch almost the whole while. I'm sure that will fade. It's just that this is the kind of thing W encouraged me to do. I would like to tell her about it. Sometimes I wish I'd let her live here in the condo.
Anyway... GAL successful.
Now I have Friday. S12 has a bball game. All his bball games are on Friday so that takes my Tango away b/c I go to his games.
W will be at this game as it is her night with S12. She asked if I was coming. If his games are on Friday, I should just take him Friday nights. I want to tell her I would prefer she not show up.
What is the right thing to do that meets my R goal? Go and be cordial with her. Remember empathy and forgiveness. Be better me. For an entire game. Let her leave with a good feeling about me. That I'm helping her through this terrible time.
I don't know how that will work. I want to text her right now... "We can't live like this. What are we doing?"
I haven't spoken to or seen my son today. He's in the same city I'm in. This is what my W wants? This is her dream of happiness? An M to me was so horrible?
Venting. I know. Nothing to do on that front.
I did a GAL. Met a few nice people. A couple cute girls too young. Broke a good sweat. Mission accomplished. Keep going. Fill my life with GAL.
Just move on.
HP, first, awesome on going to CF tonight. Don't worry, unless your Calibri, no one does it at RX so congrats. Keep it up. And yes, CF girls are pretty cute. Look up Camille LeBlanc. She's my girl crush. And she would literally crush me. S&M? Haha just kidding..
Im going to take back what I said to you many times before, because Sandi really hit it home. Ive thought this before, but it never really clicked until today. YOU NEED A BREAK and SPACE from your own W. The more I read your posts, the more frustrated and angry and just TIRED you sound...I can see how hard you are trying HP, you really really are. But your W is something else, and I do not mean to be disrespectful. She is driving you absolutely insane and it pains me to see you like this because you are trying.
I think Toots had a good solution.
I partly get Sandi's thread above and I agree, showing off your best PMA right now might be a big 'ask.' I think it's more about getting to a place where you can interact in a civil and reasonably pleasant way, in the best interests of your S.
If you can do that, you have a foundation to build on.
Sorry this isn't more helpful HP, but just letting you know were here.
Thanks TLEE. I agree about not being around my W. She again invites me to be around her at this bball game. She texted me... "Will you be there? Game's at x time!" like it's going to be a blast to see her. Like Sandi said... I'm being pulled to her and I'm digging in my heals. My son will understand if I don't go.
When I went to the science fair... I was basically delivering S12's bag of clothes b/c of the schedule change she made that day. Then she barely acknowledged me. Granted I did not go near her either.
This is ridiculous and I don't understand what she's doing. Is Sandi right that she's looking for conversation still... like Mozza's wife inviting him to lunch and sending him funny emails? I was outright hostile to my W just yesterday. Removed her from our family. Left her "homeless" as she says. She knows I'm not friendly to people I do not like. She knows I do not hide my feelings.
What does she want? I don't care what she wants! I want to see my son without her hovering and trying to be supermom.
OTOH do I do what Wonka and others say... leave my bleeding ego at the door and support her effort to be supermom while she destroys our family?
I remember when I sent a text to her apologizing for something I did in anger. It was a Wonka script. She gushed back how much my text meant to her. My cooperation she seems to love.
Just like her begging for a family Christmas... which she then skipped. Didn't even see her son on Christmas. Just like her begging for a family lunch on is Bday... then offering to skip the entire day before she asked to take him to lunch instead.
I can't go. Not now while she explains nothing to me and does not change. Not now when she treats me like crap and gives me cold shoulder and is rude and insulting and deceitful and screaming and drunk and conniving for months and then if I give her an angry look and don't talk to her I'm childish!
How the hell am I going to do this?
Is this what a WAH feels like?
I am now the WAH!
EDIT: I know.. anger is not my friend. This just seems wrong. She won't come to his games on her Fridays without S12. I should just take all Fridays from now until his season is over. Then treat him to a burger in a joint with cute waitresses. Instant Friday GAL for weeks. I am disliking my W. The end.
Ok had a bad moment. Back to detaching. I prefer not to go to the game as W is there. Will sleep on it. Thanks.
HP....BREATHE.....
OTOH do I do what Wonka and others say... leave my bleeding ego at the door and support her effort to be supermom while she destroys our family?
I think this is ideal, even Sandi pointed out that you have to be friendly-when the time is right. In your case, this is not possible at the moment. You are so angry, borderline hostile to your W, and her own emotions seem to change by the minute. Just the combination of the 2 is a scary mix.
I am worried that if you 2 continue this volatile mix when neither of you are ready to even begin to be friendly, that you are hurting your chances for R. Both of you need space. Every situation is different, but for you guys right now, I think its best if both of you just STFU for...X time and regroup. I know you have thrown this idea out to her before, but i feel like its time to say it again...
It sounds like she is going through a very mixed up period in her life. Healthy Mothers don't not see their kids over Christmas and Bdays. Can you think of her as someone that is going through a bad time and not behaving well?
Detach and be the rock that your son needs. His Mother is walking a path she needs to at the moment trying to find herself. She is probably not very happy inside. You can't fix her. She needs to figure herself out. Detaching protects you from her bad behavior. Good luck!
Hi HP,
I don't usually have much to say on your thread as the advice you get is good stuff.
In your post you talk about how your wife texted you about the bball game 'as though it will be a blast'
You know you out the tone on that right?
"Will you be there? Game's at x time!"
Forgive the mind reading for a second, but there are loads of ways this can be interpreted, for example:
- the games Friday it will be a blast
- I'm worried you'll be there and ruin the game for me
- I hope your coming I can't way to see you
- this games important don't be late
- I want us to show S12 we both care and can be around each other.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Shows why mind reading is futile and we clearly don't know our wives as well as we thought we did. But what's hurting you here is less about what she said (and yes there is a boundary issue) and more your reaction to it.
I agree with Sandi. You need a break HP but not just from your W from yourself as well, I feel like you need to do whatever you can to find some peace for a few days.
If you can find that peace, if only for a little bit, I think some of the other issues will become clearer for you
Good luck HP - you're doing great in a really rough situation.
HP
on the whole you are doing well, so keep that in mind.Just a quick update.
I got through the Crossfit. They wanted to be easy on me but impressed I got it done at an intermediate level. Not sure of the terminology yet. I'll be back next week.
I did think of my sitch almost the whole while. I'm sure that will fade. It's just that this is the kind of thing W encouraged me to do. I would like to tell her about it. Sometimes I wish I'd let her live here in the condo.
Anyway... GAL successful.
When you do some GAL that mandate your full attention, you will think of her MUCH less. The thing I liked most about doing theater is that theres nothing like a live audience to keep your mind OFF your WAS.
This could apply to volunteering to help with sets or lighting or crew, in a community theater if you don't want to perform. The tension and focus of a show, is so healing in terms of hours of Zero obsession...very helpful.
IF you are not into theater, think of something that is intense enough to require your complete focus, even if only for a little while. It can feel like a brain/heart vacation or break.
Now I have Friday. S12 has a bball game. All his bball games are on Friday so that takes my Tango away b/c I go to his games.
W will be at this game as it is her night with S12. She asked if I was coming. If his games are on Friday, I should just take him Friday nights. I want to tell her I would prefer she not show up.
Don't. Friday nights and your son's baseball games are not about you.
What is the right thing to do that meets my R goal?
No matter what your R goal is - or becomes -, your son's welfare will always be THE priority.
His feeling loved by both parents as best they can love him, is what you must support MOST.
Go and be cordial with her. Remember empathy and forgiveness. Be better me. For an entire game. Let her leave with a good feeling about me. That I'm helping her through this terrible time.
Why not make this^^ about your son? Because on Friday nights, you are watching your son play baseball near or with, his mother, who is ALSO watching your son play baseball. (Be glad there is no OM. Eventually this may be the best avenue for future interactions but again, THIS should not be about your m or your w or yourself).
It's abut your son and his baseball. That's a chunk of his life where he gets to play and get support and see his parents NOT fighting or crying and he can be with his team mates and perform well some nights, have victories and share defeats with his cohorts...Cheer for him, advise him about playing well, clap hard when he scores or they win, and that's that.
HIS GAME NIGHTS are NOT about you or how you feel or your R goal OR what your wife is experiencing. He's a kid. Let him be the focus of Friday nights while he plays baseball.
(But when does that wacky season end? & Who plays baseball in January?)
Also, Arthur Murray and other dance schools have lessons more than one night a week. Instead of resenting not having those Tango lessons (I know that the Tango is uniquely its own dance. I get it. ) realize that you can probably take some form of dance on another night, probably Saturday night.
Any chance you'd like Swing, Salsa or Ballroom dancing? Expand those options so you don't come up with THE reason you CANNOT GAL...b/c YOU CAN GAL...
(If need be, go back and read my GAL list of what I did with an infant at home, + 2 kids, in the interior of Alaska...)
Maybe instead of saying to GET a life we ought to say MAKE A life b/c you do have to make it happen. No one else will.
I don't know how that will work. I want to text her right now... "We can't live like this. What are we doing?"
Do NOT text her. Get a grip on yourself and go running or DO SOMETHING other than thinking about OR contacting her again . Take a break from these boards if that will help.
I haven't spoken to or seen my son today. He's in the same city I'm in. This is what my W wants? This is her dream of happiness? An M to me was so horrible?
She's not doing any of this to hurt you. QTIP, remember?
Is your son being in the same city different b/c you are not traveling? So you will see him when, tomorrow?
Consider that my brother's ex w had an A and then married her OM, an Air Force pilot.
They had joint custody but b/c his youngest child was only 4, Ex w wanted primary (but joint) custody. That was fine b/c my brother lived near her/his kids, and she was a SAHM...
BUT whoops! Then OM/pilot got a new assignment, and was transferred by the military ---and thus, can't be blamed for taking them away...(guess he's a hero)
so after only maybe 9 months after the fastest divorce & remarriage in history, brother's 3 kids moved to the other side of the country --on the opposite coast...
**Seriously - I'll never ever understand how could his ex w do that to him/them**
So he'd fly out to see them 1 week every 6 weeks (HIS expense) and they'd fly to see him 1 week every 6, (their expense) plus a month in the summer (shared).
He was crushed for about a decade. Fought and fought and spent a fortune on lawyers fees...over that time. His life is good now, but that's not the point of course.
Just Don't wallow too long in the self pity pool. You're lucky in many MANY ways and Frankly, you are doing too well here to engage in much wallowing, okay?
That's not really a 2 x 4 so much as a compliment but anyhow, you get the point right?
Venting. I know. Nothing to do on that front.
I did a GAL. Met a few nice people. A couple cute girls too young. Broke a good sweat. Mission accomplished. Keep going. Fill my life with GAL.
Just move on.
Turn it over, and it gets easier. Sometimes I'd "turn it over" to God, about 50 times in one shower. Seriously.
Many days I would tell myself that phrase 100 times. It sinks in faster and I had too long a learning curve in my opinion.
Did I confuse you with someone else or did You hire a DB Coach? I think you did, so all I'll say for now is stay the course.
CARRY ON HP, you've got this.
2 last comments I want to make.
1) sometimes we wait to FEEL something in order to BEHAVE differently...
but what if we behaved differently AND THEN let the feelings come?
(from achieving our behavioral goals)?
To an extent, that ^^ is what we are asking you to do.
2) If you really DO this "DB" stuff, your life will get easier and you will become a better, happier and more loving man.
Ponder that^^ fully for a minute. Believe it even if just for this moment....
and let yourself FEEL the glory of that^^ reality.
Journaling...
Just can't sleep. Noting I want to text W... "Talk to me." Writing it here so I don't. Breathing and accepting where I am. This person is toxic to me right now. I need something else to occupy my mind as I keep being told. Just hard right now. Just keep going.
Oh yes thank you 25. I forgot. Turn it over to God. I'll do that right now.
Hello all. I have a question...
In our family we've used a shared Google Calendar. As this sitch progressed, W disconnected from that calendar during her "I'm afraid H can see my private data" phase. She has since started a new Google Calendar which we now use.
She just sent me an invite for another calendar called 2houses.com specifically for separated/divorced families. I got the email invite. Then she sends me a text about the invite. Now she just called. Let it go to VM.
Should I go along with this new change. I'm thinking of saying... "thank you wife for setting this up. The Google calendar works for me let's stick with it thanks."
I know I have to write the email. Everyday she changes something.
Thank you again for your opinions.
HP, it appears to me that 2houses will synch with your Google calendar, plus has features such as change requests, expense trackers, and some other things specific to shared parenting. My thought is, it you can synch with Google Calendar so that it doesn't require much extra effort on your behalf, then it might be a good thing. I especially noticed the feature where change requests are automated and you don't have to talk to W. Might work for you.
All five of us keep a shared Cozi calendar. My H also keeps a separate Outlook calendar. You could keep Google Calendar for your work/personal stuff, use 2houses for kid stuff. Just a thought.
She just sent me an invite for another calendar called 2houses.com specifically for separated/divorced families. I got the email invite. Then she sends me a text about the invite. Now she just called. Let it go to VM.
Should I go along with this new change. I'm thinking of saying... "thank you wife for setting this up. The Google calendar works for me let's stick with it thanks."
I'd say just to accept the invite, and let it be. It isn't worth the trouble, and isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. Choose your battles wisely. It is what is on the schedule that is important.
Ok thank you. I accepted the invite. I do not want to escalate any battle with W.
Better to make this separation as easy as possible. Part of me resists that b/c of the fear that I'm saying I'm OK with all of this to her. Remembering that in life you get into bad situations and struggling against it doesn't help. Go with it and look for a way to make it work for you.
In her VM my W says she's worried b/c I haven't responded to her texts and says she hopes I'm well. After I accept her invite with no other word, she sends a text just now saying she hopes I'm OK.
Unless there's a really good DB reason to go... I'm going to tell S12 tonight that I'm not going to his basketball game on Friday. I have him the last 2 Friday's of the month so I will go then.
Pulling even farther back is best for me right now. I have no relationship with this person.
Keep being careful with your angry comments HP.
"I have no relationship with this person"
You have a really important relationship - co-parents.
HP,
Are you dense?? Didn't you just hear what 25 said about going to S11's games to CHEER and SUPPORT him? It is all about your son.
I can tell you what will happen if you don't show up:
-S11 will be crushed
-S11 will feel less than good because he will know the real reason that you didn't show up
-S11 will feel caught in the middle of his so-called warring parents because they can't get their chit together
-W will view you in a very negative light instead of a confident man who's getting on with his life
And continuing to ignore W's texts is just more of the same petulant behavior.
You're wrong think that you're telegraphing to W that you are okay with this separation. She already knows through your angry responses.