Mozza 1 - 2009 near-separation, search for explanations.
Mozza 2 - OM confirmed through kids on Halloween, refocus on me rather than blaming W.
Mozza 3 - OM confirmed by W in email, strollergate, W has problems at work, unexpected blind date.
Mozza 4 - Lunch with W went well, reflections on being dumped, kids and OM
Mozza 5 - W warms up but OM set to move in in January, W's birthday email
Mozza 6 - To be nice or not to be, two trips make me feel better, office party video
My storyAfter 9.5 years together, my W announced in early September 2014 that she wanted a separation. A week of pleading and begging didn't change a thing. She said she wanted to be free, alone, find her true self, that I was criticizing her too much, that we're incompatible, that she was unhappy and no longer in love with me and she didn't want to live with half-emotions. She had told me before of some of those
complaints and that she was
unhappy. We had not yet addressed everything, we would fight more than average, and I wasn't changing fast enough, so she was growing hopeless that things would improve.
A week after BD, she moved out. A month and a half later, she confirmed my suspicions that she was with a coworker, met at the new job she started a month before BD (after a year of job-seeking). A good listener, 10 years younger than me, better-looking and athletic, he'd been courting her from week 1 and was omnipresent throughout her move. He's moving in with her in January. Our two daughters know and like him and generally take the S in strides.
DBingI accept responsibility for what I did in the M, by being too critical and dismissive of my W's feelings, and I understand that my W was looking for something she wasn't finding in the M. I sometimes understand why she left, since she was miserable, and sometimes think leaving was too strong a reaction for the situation. I tend to blame her flight reflex and unrealistic expectations for love and family life.
My stance at the moment is to let her live her life while I reflect and try to focus on me. I keep the interactions to a minimum but cordial and about the kids. I'm good at being silent and distant. The "no pursuing" rule is easy to apply for me because it means doing nothing. I detach better with this distance. What I'm not so good at is acting normal and upbeat around her. I've recently been told that I act as a "wet noodle" with her because I'm too kind to her gestures, like banter emails and hugs. I see a therapist since BD.
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Success storiesFeel free to make suggestions, especially with links to threads. I wish we had room in our profile to tell our story so that the vets and other successes could give us a quick summary.
RECONCILIATION
Thornton (M) -
May to July 2014 Train (W) -
Reconciled in 2014 Labug (W) -
March 2011 to December 2013 HopefulStill - reconciled in 2012
minkerman (M) -
Reconciled after 4 months in 2008 25yearsmlc (W) -
2005 to August 2008FaithfulH -
Reconciled in 2007 sandi2 (W) - ?
Coach (M) -
2008MrBond (M) - Used to have another screen name
Starsky309 (M) - (
ChocolateEyes,
Puppy Dog Tails) -
Aug 2007 to 2009. Exposed his W's A.
Butterflymom127 and FavoriteWeirdo -
Thread PIECING AS OF 2014
Crimson T0324 Heart14 Nitty - BD in December 2013, piecing as of September 2014
LETTING GO
pearlharbr (W) -
November 2008 to June 2010 (19 months) Snow White (W) -
2008-2009. Let go when her H wanted back in.
I got a lot of support and good feedback about my changes at the end of my previous thread. Here's my response.
---------------
Wow, those are some very kind words. I'm surprised that my changes are visible on this board. Many many thanks, Vanilla, Complex, TLEE86, Card29, Vapo, and jim0987. I've read your words several times.
Here are the things I learnt at and since BD.
1) Speak with my actions. When I catch myself about to say something about who I am, how I think, my values, etc, I shut up and demonstrate it. I enjoy it greatly because it feels genuine. It's the same with an apology: I make it short and I make sure to be careful next time rather than come up with an excuse. Also, I observe my actions to define who I am. It's more demanding.
2) Let go. Now that I've the opposite of control over my W, I've no choice but to let her do everything she wants her own way. It's been liberating. Oh, in the moment, I wish I could influence her, but over time it feels much better to have accepted things be done differently and that we get along.
3) STFU. On this board and looking at old emails between my W and me, I see that my desire to clarify and nuance everything got in the way. It restarted arguments that were settled, it dragged on discussions while we could have used the energy elsewhere.
If my W gives me as much as a thought, she probably thinks I'm like this either because I'm in a crisis (her explanation before she moved out) or because we're no longer in a couple. I realize it takes time and it's my fault for needing this crisis to understand these things quickly. I won't know how durable those changes are until I'm in a R, but in the meantime I realized that I can practice these changes with the people around me. Fake it until you become it -- I believe this.
I can't bring myself to be thankful for 2014 though. I don't have this wisdom yet. I've suffered too much and feel like there are other ways I could have made such progress, if slower. There's no way I will use such shock therapy on people around me to teach them anything important. So if I'm not grateful, at least I recognize the benefits of this trial.
I think that is very healthy attitude to have towards 2014 right now. I don't blame you for not being thankful for it yet! Sometimes I still wish something else could have shaken me up enough to do this work. But alas
My W and I are coming back from our respective Holiday travels tomorrow and we'll resume our "normal" interactions.
1. I found her clothes and winter equipment at my parents' place. Do I return them? She hasn't asked for them. I'm concerned she'll feel rejected if I keep returning stuff she hasn't asked for. At the same time, I'd like her to feel that we're separating, that she's not the only one in control.
2. Do I avoid interacting with her? I'm most comfortable avoiding because she's with OM anyway, so it's not like I can attract her now and it takes my PMA down. She'll send me funny emails, give me work updates, etc. Do I engage? She might invite me for lunch. (I'll respond to the kids stuff as usual.)
Thanks!
I decided to return her winter gear and I found my answer to the second question in a
fantastic post by sandi2 on HPoirot's thread.
I believe when a couple separates, there needs to be a period of time where they should avoid contact with each other. It is so easy to trigger something during a quick exchange, texting, etc. They need that space from each other to regroup and calm down where they feel a bit more balanced in their emotional equaliberim.
On top of that, my W is in a new R. I don't know if we have balance. On the surface, we do: we're very cordial and just about everything comes easy between us about the kids. Almost too easy, because it plays into her scenario that this separation is no big deal, apart perhaps from my pain. On my end, I'm not detached at all and have been crying every day for 4 months straight now. Our interactions make me very uncomfortable. Coming from her, I see that she tries to stay in touch with chit chat that borders on weird (video of her office party??). I suspect there's nothing there and she's really moved on, but that's mind reading.
This is why I do not agree with the idea of getting all buddy-buddy. How could it be genuine? IMO, she needs to know he is not happy about what she has done to the family, and frankly, he is not interested in being her friend. He is done! That is the only message that will cause her to rethink her actions.
So I'll avoid feeding her communications then, keep it to a minimum about the kids. Perhaps in a few weeks or months, I'll reassess. Maybe I should have a deadline, like HPoirot's six months.
Mozza,
Been a little bit of time since we crossed paths.
I read that post from Sandi and thought it was really good also. I think you're onto something in keeping communications to a minimum. However, make sure you don't cross the line and be cold and callous. It's tough and I know there are times that i struggle with being short and to the point, but not being too tough on things.
I think our W's are in completely different places wrt to their interactions with us, but I still think this is all a cover to mask the hurt and pain and not allow them to be vulnerable. I think this is not just with others, but part of what they've built up inside in not dealing with their issues and decisions. Once they tackle that, then they can start to let others help them.
Thanks MCS. I still follow every post on your thread. Yes, it looks like our WAWs are diverging somewhat. I think it's because my W has a simpler situation with her OM. He left his GF quickly for her and moved in with W (today! yay!), so she can find peace and calm there. She gives me the typical "good mood" of WAS who are in a good place with OM. Also, she had almost no anger at me when she left. I think she was just too focused on OM already. Actually, noting that almost all WAS seem to have anger issues with LBS when they leave, I don't really know why my W has none. She can get upset. Perhaps she feels too much guilt.
I agree my W doesn't appear to be dealing with her issues, but I'm also not sure if she does because I don't see her or really know what's going on with her. Maybe she's a new person? Probably not, otherwise she wouldn't be sending me the video of her office party and brag about drinking too much to remember what she ate.
We just had a fairly long text exchange about the kids and I kept it to a minimum, not taking any of the lines she threw me, like asking about the Holidays ("very good!") or the kids ("very good!") or her jet lag (no reaction). It pains me a lot: I miss her and I crave interacting with her. I really, really want to text "I didn't want this separation and I'm still heartbroken, but I'm moving on. What else can I do?" But I won't.
Her indifference to me during the S talks really hurt me. It was amazing to see her unmoved by my love and pain. It felt worse than her anger. I don't want to go back there. I don't want to admit to her that I'm still in love with her and hear crickets in return. It feels like being a trapeze artist, throwing yourself at your partner and he doesn't extend a hand, so you fall.
theyre still in fantasyland, Mozza. It stinks that it has gotten to this point, that he's moving in, but now reality gets to set in. Now they have to be on all of the time, which they won't.
How is your detachment? Obviously its not perfect since you are craving her. I don't blame you, I was there for 6 months! At least you're not pursuing like I did lol. What is the most detached you've been during this process?
mozza, stay strong man, you know by now she doesn't want an R with you. We all hope this is short term but the last thing she wants to hear is that you love her. Stay the course . take care RD
So today is the day she starts to find out about his toenail clippings, and his offensive attitudes and that he just leaves half eaten tubs of olives to go mouldy in the fridge.
Today is the beginning of the end of the fantasy and when real world sets in for them
No question its going to be hard for you Mozza, I hope your doing ok and have some good plans to do some things for you lined up.
And as for interactions you need to do what is right for you to help you manage your emotions.
I wouldnt be so set on timelines though except how they might help you. If youve read any of the stuff on the stockdale paradox he said that the ones who struggled most were the ones who had an end date in mind.
theyre still in fantasyland, Mozza. It stinks that it has gotten to this point, that he's moving in, but now reality gets to set in. Now they have to be on all of the time, which they won't.
Thanks for the reminder, Card29. I see the move-in as an accelerator: either towards a serious R or a breakup. Also, our family life with two young kids could never compare to a part-time lover. But a live-in barely-known new boyfriend? Perhaps. My W is not easy to live with and can start arguments or be unyielding. He might just not be perfect either, who knows.
How is your detachment? Obviously its not perfect since you are craving her. I don't blame you, I was there for 6 months! At least you're not pursuing like I did lol. What is the most detached you've been during this process?
Interesting question. As I recall, it's in early December when I went on two trips and I didn't have the kids for 12 straight days. The change of scenery, the ego boost I got from my friends and not having the kids helped me replenish my energy reserves. My detachment came from the idea that I wasn't such a bad husband after all and that my W made a big mistake when she left me for this new guy and that she'd come to regret it.
I'm more detached than at the beginning. I really try to avoid information about her and too many interactions. So it's evolving, even though I'm not there.I'm observing your (sudden!) evolution and seeing how it sticks, and maybe how it can inspire me.
Thanks for sharing your story and helping me see through mine.
So today is the day she starts to find out about his toenail clippings, and his offensive attitudes and that he just leaves half eaten tubs of olives to go mouldy in the fridge.
Today is the beginning of the end of the fantasy and when real world sets in for them
No question its going to be hard for you Mozza, I hope your doing ok and have some good plans to do some things for you lined up.
And if it is of any help at all, he's got haemorrhoids, athletes foot and bad breath. Together with a pickled onion and lager habit, back acne and green snot, let's not forget the dandruff and waxy ears.
Vanilla
I've met this guy and he chews his food very loudly...
He also leaves a teaspoon of sauce in the bottom of a jar and puts it back in the fridge, rather than rinsing it out and putting it in the recycling...(no wait, that's my H...)
So today is the day she starts to find out about his toenail clippings, and his offensive attitudes and that he just leaves half eaten tubs of olives to go mouldy in the fridge.
And if it is of any help at all, he's got haemorrhoids, athletes foot and bad breath. Together with a pickled onion and lager habit, back acne and green snot, let's not forget the dandruff and waxy ears.
I've met this guy and he chews his food very loudly... He also leaves a teaspoon of sauce in the bottom of a jar and puts it back in the fridge, rather than rinsing it out and putting it in the recycling...(no wait, that's my H...)
Haha! You all made me laugh.
I wouldnt be so set on timelines though except how they might help you. If youve read any of the stuff on the stockdale paradox he said that the ones who struggled most were the ones who had an end date in mind.
Woah! I never heard of the Stockdale paradox. I love it and I paste the
Wikipedia extract here for everyone's benefit.
In a business book by James C. Collins called Good to Great, Collins writes about a conversation he had with Stockdale regarding his coping strategy during his period in the Vietnamese POW camp.
I never lost faith in the end of the story, I never doubted not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which, in retrospect, I would not trade.
When Collins asked who didn't make it out of Vietnam, Stockdale replied:
Oh, that's easy, the optimists. Oh, they were the ones who said, 'We're going to be out by Christmas.' And Christmas would come, and Christmas would go. Then they'd say, 'We're going to be out by Easter.' And Easter would come, and Easter would go. And then Thanksgiving, and then it would be Christmas again. And they died of a broken heart.
Stockdale then added:
This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose—with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.
Witnessing this philosophy of duality, Collins went on to describe it as the Stockdale Paradox.
Had I known this, my nickname here would be Stockdale. To get through this, we need the faith that we will prevail no matter today's hardships. I've a game with a few close people where I take bets on how long W and OM will last (most don't give them until the summer...) but I think I'll drop it because it creates these expectations and that's not where my focus should be anyway. I'll go through this day to day, knowing that I will prevail.
Thanks jim0987! It's funny how we need to remind each other just about the same thing.
By the way, Stockdale was badass.
When told by his captors that he was to be paraded in public, Stockdale slit his scalp with a razor to purposely disfigure himself so that his captors could not use him as propaganda. When they covered his head with a hat, he beat himself with a stool until his face was swollen beyond recognition. When Stockdale was discovered with information that could implicate his friends' "black activities", he slit his wrists so they could not torture him into confession.
So what was I saying about having a bad day? Yeah, forget it. ;-)
You should definitely drop the betting games on the length of their R, exactly for the reason that Stockdale explains...the people who thought they would be home by Easter, then by Christmas were the ones that broke. You have no idea what's going to happen with your WAW. They could be broken up in a month. They could last 6 months. They COULD last forever. My FIL is married to his A partner. Their A started in the mid-to-late 90's. They are happily M (or so it seems...who knows with anyone, really).
I've thought a lot about the Stockdale Paradox. It's a little tricky to apply to our sitches. I've been hesitant to make "R my M with WAW" as my goal, because it so easily leads me to attachment, expectations and a downward spiral. If you do that, make SURE you keep equal focus on the negative realities ("she currently wants nothing to do with the M and I have nothing that allows me to expect that to change"), then focus on the task at hand, which is YOU. It took me 6 solid months to truly begin to do my work for ME, not for WAW or an expectation for our M. I always said it was only for me and D2, but I was lying to myself. It partially was, but there was always a part of me that thought, "I can't wait until WAW learns about what I'm doing!"
Stay strong, my friend!
Please consider Vicktor Frankl in Mans Search for meaning, it's about a Jewish prisoner in a nazi concentration camp. This wonderful writer subsequently became one of the U.S. greatest philosophers and psychologists. This book is in my personal top 5 books (along with DR of course). It is not an easy read but enormously inspiring.
This is all about mindfulness and PMA.
Vanilla
Thanks Card29. I'm still doing it mostly for W. My philosophy is that time will take care of it and I already feel my focus shifting slowly towards myself. Your shift has been impressive to watch and I'll keep following what's next.
Thanks Vanilla for the book recommendation. I already have a few lined up and I'm a slow reader, but it's on the list. I've researched Frankl and it's interesting that he's one of the founders of the humanist branch of psychology. My IC is in the psychoanalytic branch and I feel naturally inclined to the cognitive branch.
... and she's back!
So my W came back to the country yesterday. We then texted back and forth about the kids (see 2523576 above). Today, she sent me two of the random texts for which she's becoming famous: one funny about the weather and one about the pic of me she sees on the side of Gmail conversations. She's clearly trying to engage, but I'm no wet noodle and I just politely reply after a short while. I haha-ed her joked and emoticoned the picture comment.
And now she just invited me for lunch. To catch up.
I'll accept, of course. I shouldn't completely avoid her, even though I'm really not comfortable around her knowing she's in love with OM and likely saying (and doing!) things that were only ours. I feel like a fool in front of her, like she's openly cheating on me and I accept it like a good boy. She keeps me where she wants me: a good and cordial co-parent.
At the same time, DB means I seize the opportunities for positive interactions and I show my changes. I'll go and be cordial and upbeat, show that I'm moving on with my life. I don't like it. Some people here want to she their W that they're angry; I want to show mine that I'm heartbroken. But I won't! I know, I know...
I read every single post in HPoirot's thread about how he should treat his W. He comes from anger and needs to move to cordial. I'm moving from distant and cordial to... cordial?
I just don't know what we can talk about at lunch. I don't want to tell her in details all I've done during the Holidays. I don't want to hear about her Holidays. I reel for days after I meet her because it reminds me of what I've lost - I can't stop thinking about her.
I should be happy she's inviting me. Many people here really want to be in touch with WAS and I'm lucky she reaches out. I just need to be careful not to be put in the friend zone. How so? Go figure.
Reasons you shouldn't go to this lunch (some from you, some from me):
- It shows you're being a "good boy", happily waiting on her to act out her fantasy
- Allows cake eating
- You feel like a fool in front of her
- You will be tempted to play the pitiful, heartbroken card.
- Everything you could talk about at lunch will either be cake eating for her, pity from you, details about her life you don't want to hear about, or details from your life you don't want to share
- Every time you're around her it causes a setback, and now it's worse because OM is living with her
- This is the definition of friend zone. What do women do when they get back from on out-of-country trip? Have lunch with their friends to catch up!
Reasons you should go to lunch:
- ...? Maybe I'm overstating one side of this argument, but feel free to add to this list.
Mozza,
Nope to lunch. You're veering into the gay boyfriend territory.
I went back to my copy of DR to see what MWD says for these situations.
The first relevant passage is on pages 129-130 in the LRT section and it covers situations where WAS have moved out.
The second possible response from your mate is that she becomes curious. She might start showing more interest in you, your whereabouts, and what you are up to in your life. Your spouse might even suggest you spend sometime together to talk or do something enjoyable. It's also possible that your spouse might start asking you a lot of questions about your sudden changes. If any of these things begin to happen, here's my advice:
- Be loving in return, but not overly excited or enthusiastic.
- Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all.
- Do not ask any questions about your future together.
- Be vague when asked questions about changes in you. Say that you are just thinking things through.
- Continue to be upbeat.
- Do not say "I love you."
- Resist getting into conversations about your marriage.
- Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave or separate from each other at the end of an activity. You set the tone for going your separate ways.
The general rule of thumb here is to be responsive to your partner's new interest, but not too responsive. If you go overboard, your partner could get cold feet.
Regarding the OM, there's a section on the "After the LRT" on pages 218-219.
Sometimes, even after you've done all the right things, your spouse still refuses to stop seeing the OP. (...)
However, you shouldn't do it unless you are prepared to end your marriage because that's just what it might do. However, it might serve as a wake-up call to your spouse. It's hard to predict what will happen.
Tell your spouse that you love her enough that you are prepared to let go, then back off completely. Don't spend time together. Don't speak on the phone unless it's about the children. Have as little face-to-face contact as possible. Don't do nice things anymore. Don't call. Don't email. Don't initiate contact of any sort. Don't allow your spouse to feel that there is a relationship between you any longer. Continue this emotional cutoff until your spouse gets that there will be no relationship of any sort until and unless the OP is completely out of the picture.
It sounds like I need to make some kind of statement about letting go and not wanting any contact outside the kids stuff as long as she's with OM. I've already told her that I was letting her go though, at DB. Maybe I should just speak with my actions and politely decline the invitation without further explanation?
You need to catch back on up on boundaries:
Starksy discussing boundaries also, train has a great thread somewhere on the infidelity forum that has cliff notes for boundaries...what they're for and how to use them. Can someone find a link? I'm on my phone and am struggling to find it...
Mozza, I've not been confronted with this OP scenario (yet) but in reading here I get the impression it is better to state WHY you don't want any contact (OM). Otherwise WAS just gets annoyed that you've suddenly gone NC and doesn't understand why. In contrast, if you state your reasons they know what they have to do to end the NC.
Hopefully Wonka will weigh in soon.
Mozza,
I offer Sandi's advice as your guide.
The more she is thinking about what the hell you are getting up to is the better is my thinking
But at some point you have to reconnect that's where I struggle
how the hell do you know that the time is right
I believe when a couple separates, there needs to be a period of time where they should avoid contact with each other. It is so easy to trigger something during a quick exchange, texting, etc. They need that space from each other to regroup and calm down where they feel a bit more balanced in their emotional equaliberim.
This is why I do not agree with the idea of getting all buddy-buddy. How could it be genuine? IMO, she needs to know he is not happy about what she has done to the family, and frankly, he is not interested in being her friend. He is done! That is the only message that will cause her to rethink her actions.
The WAW and LBH should be civil, and that is all, during this adjustment period. Otherwise, the LBH will be putting all this unnecessary pressure on himself......just like HP is doing now. He should not be concerned now she feels about him GAL. It is ludicrous! He left that stuff behind him......or should have.
After the LBS has had time to get stronger and has a life without the WAS, and can work through some of the resentment issues, self-respect, Etc., then he can begin showing more friendliness whenever they have contact. I do believe It has to be a gradual process. I also believe he has the right to evaluate her actions and if he feels he does not want to be friends, then he should not be made to feel he owes it to her. He should not feel pressured about it.
Paul, you say how will you know when to reconnect. I would say it is when you start seeing the woman you use to know. When she truly ends things with OM. When she stops the disrespect. When she stops the lies, manipulation, etc. When she is more interested in you than her phone. When she starts thinking about what's best for her family, and makes them her priority instead of herself. When you can look into her eyes and she doesn't turn away. When you can talk to her without her appearing she is in too big of a hurry to get away. When you can stand near her without her being repulsed. When she begins to show remorse.
Those are just a few. Until you begin to see these things in her, you are spinning your wheels.
You need to go with option #2 you posted earlier. No more gay boyfriend stuff!
OK then, I will decline her invitation. I can see the point. I can benefit emotionally from the break.
Can I get help on the reply? What I may write.
"Thanks for the invitation. I'll pass though. We both have stuff to live and think through and it's better for now that we limit our interactions to a minimum and about the kids. Hope you understand."
What I want to write.
"Sorry, I'd rather not have lunch just now. I can't be friendly anymore while I process you leaving me like this so quickly despite the love, kids and marriage."
Of course, I've been friendly before: email banter, 30-minute phone call before her Holiday flight, lunch in September and November...
I'd like to slip a reference in there suggesting it applies as long as there's an OM. But that means acknowledging OM (never done that) and that I believe it won't last.
"Thanks for the invitation. I'll pass though. We both have stuff to live and think through and it's better for now that we limit our interactions to a minimum and about the kids. Hope you understand."
OK then! We'll see how that goes, but it won't be said that I was not a disciplined DBer!
So she pulled another one tonight. Emailed my parents as soon as she got home with the kids to ask them if they really gave them 7up (yes, the soft drink) while they stayed with them. Her email is very cordial but fairly long (125 words) and doesn't hide her irritation. 7up is too sweet and not good for children, according to her (yet, the kids tell me about all the chocolate that OM feeds them, but that's irrelevant...). She's been a bit of a control freak about the kids when they're not with her, but this goes further.
I told my parents not to reply, that I would contact her, saying we spoke. Here's the email I have in mind.
"Thanks for the invitation. I'll pass though.
My parents told me you emailed them about the 7up. Yes, the girls drank a bit of it, mixed with grape juice, at Christmas, on New Year and once when Maya threw up. It was diet, so there was no sugar. I was aware of it and had already talked to my parents. I don't encourage it, but even the regular type is no sweeter than juice or chocolate. We should trust each other when the girls are under our care and if there's a concern, let's discuss between ourselves."
By the way, this is really a change in tone for me in the sitch. I've reacted very little to her random emails in the last few weeks, but I've never declined her invitations or told her to mind her own business. I'm concerned this is bringing me back to the "business" tone that made her feel neglected in the M. But then again, deep down I really am a wet noodle with her...
Mza
To go or not go to lunch, if you would prefer a peaceful phase and it will disrupt your DB plans for LRT don't go. At some stage you will need to acknowledge OM and lay down the boundary for your full LRT, if that is where you are and want to be.
Your W relationship with her MIL and FIL are between them, I suggest you do not get involved. Frankly not your concern if you were in a different place when the kids stayed with them.
Ok it's hypocritical of W maybe if she is critiquing your parents on behaviour she is involved in herself.
Your Ps are adults and they clearly have had child/children of their own that they have brought up. I assume there is no neglect or abuse by your Ps so leave this alone. It's between them and W, they can validate and provide a 7up free zone for the future. In other words 'we see the concern about full sugar 7up and sugary drinks, and have and will provide a 7up sugar free zone.'
V
Of course, W is now asking why I don't want to go to lunch...
Is there a way you can tell her kindly, without putting her on the defensive? That you are grateful for the invitation, but don't believe it is good for you with the way you are feeling about everything?
I am the last one right now to be giving any kind of advice or suggestion, but it seems there is room to do a mix of kind communication and boundary establishment. They say gentleness is real strength in action and that's the whole point you want to reach as a LBS?
There is your opening to bring in the boundary if you want to on OM.
W whilst you are with OM then I want to limit our interactions to coparent D6 and D3.
Sure others could say it better.
V
Interesting. Could this really be a moment to acknowledge OM?
I'm not sure especially about the "while you're with OM" because it implies I know it won't last, which might be inflammatory. Also, the rule seems to be "never mention OM".
By the way, what she wrote is:
"What do you mean, pass? You don't want to have lunch? Do you prefer that we never meet then? It would make me sad because I think we need to keep some face to face contact, that we're not robots with each other. I'm under the impression that you're not interested and it's detrimental to our relationship. Explain it to me please so that we're clear."
Funny, now that I see it written here, W's email looks like a text from HPoirot's W!
Here's my attempt at a reply:
"Yes, I suggest we don't meet for lunch just now. Things can change over time, but for now I think it's best to use email and focus on the kids."
Darn, I really don't know how to handle this when it goes beyond staying silent...
Funny, now that I see it written here, W's email looks like a text from HPoirot's W!
my thought exactly
Here's my attempt at a reply:
Yes, I suggest we don't meet for lunch just now. Things can change over time, but for now I think it's best I want to use email and focus on the kids."
V
Simpler
"What do you mean, pass? You don't want to have lunch? Do you prefer that we never meet then? It would make me sad because I think we need to keep some face to face contact, that we're not robots with each other. I'm under the impression that you're not interested and it's detrimental to our relationship. Explain it to me please so that we're clear."
Wowzer, A's make people stupid. WAW sure seems awfully concerned about the R that she stepped out of to have an A.
Mozza, HERE is the boundaries thread I tried to find. It was from Coach back in 2009. Read it ASAP!!!
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...179#Post1859179Be sure to read through the entire thread, as helpful advice keeps rolling in from others. I don't think you have to pretend like OM doesn't exist, you just don't want to mention or bring him up unless you absolutely have to. In this case, he and her R with him are the reason you do not want to have lunch with her. So you have to mention it. The key is, it's not about controlling her, it's about protecting you.
You can look through that thread for inspiration of exactly how you want to word it, but this phrase from Coach stands out:
Is being treated like a "roommate" how you want to continue on? Let go of the outcome and your thinking will clear up.
By the way, I don't put a lot of hope in the "she'll miss me!" approach. When I broke up with my previous GF, I couldn't care less about any contact with her and her silence was perfect for me. I was in a new love (with W!). I do note however that my W seems to seek much more contact and banter, but I'm guessing it's for the kids' sake. And anyway: Stockdale!
Wowzer, A's make people stupid. WAW sure seems awfully concerned about the R that she stepped out of to have an A.
In her defense, she refers to the post-M relationship. We're through, we have separate lives, but we have kids so we should have a good R for their sake.
Yay! Thank you. Will read and report.
I don't think you have to pretend like OM doesn't exist, you just don't want to mention or bring him up unless you absolutely have to. In this case, he and her R with him are the reason you do not want to have lunch with her. So you have to mention it. The key is, it's not about controlling her, it's about protecting you.
The primary reason why I don't want to have lunch with her is for my own sake because I need to detach. The second reason, which I can't tell her, is that she has to miss me at some point for reconciliation to become an option.
In her mind, the OM is irrelevant too. We're through because we're incompatible, period. We have kids to raise jointly -- will it be only possible if we're both single?? She thinks that meeting face to face is good for the co-parenting relationship.
Is being treated like a "roommate" how you want to continue on? Let go of the outcome and your thinking will clear up.
I don't get it. Let go of the outcome? The outcome is her reaction to my boundary setting? I'm dense today.
The way I interpret Coach's statement is: He is asking that poster the question if you want to live your life like roommates........and just answer yes or no without hashing out all the different outcome scenario? After all, that seems to be a big problem for LBS. They are afraid to set boundaries b/c they are thinking, "What if this or that happens?". Coach is saying to keep it simple by asking if that is how you want to live your life.......yes or no. If no, then set your boundary accordingly.
Reiterating what sandi said, I think coach is referring to the eventual outcome of the sitch. If you're obsessing over saving your M, with every decision aimed at saving your M (don't upset her, don't offend her, want her to see your changes, make changes that you think she'll like, etc.), you won't be focused on the right things.
Thanks for clarifying your sitch to me. I'm sure you've read it 100 times, but just know that she is speaking in absolute negatives! You don't stay with someone for 9.5 years if you're incompatible. Who knows what will happen in the future, but that statement, I guarantee, is not true. Just don't argue the point with her.
The primary reason why I don't want to have lunch with her is for my own sake because I need to detach. The second reason, which I can't tell her, is that she has to miss me at some point for reconciliation to become an option
Find a simple, self-respecting way to tell her the primary reason (don't make yourself look weak, just have respect for yourself). Don't be wordy - less is more. I think it goes without saying that you should not mention the 2nd reason.
Find a simple, self-respecting way to tell her the primary reason (don't make yourself look weak, just have respect for yourself). Don't be wordy - less is more. I think it goes without saying that you should not mention the 2nd reason.
25 gave me this... "Right now I need to reduce contact with you, so I can move forward"
How about something like:
No thanks. Right now I want to reduce our contact so I can move forward. Of course we can link up by phone/email for anything about the kids.
theyre still in fantasyland, Mozza. It stinks that it has gotten to this point, that he's moving in, but now reality gets to set in. Now they have to be on all of the time, which they won't.
Thanks for the reminder, Card29.
I see the move-in as an accelerator: either towards a serious R or a breakup.
Exactly. So, some clarity will come, IN TIME. Embrace the "waiting" period as a GAL time (required for true Detachment) for you.
Nothing else for you to do now but work on yourself and grow. EMBRACE THIS.
Also, our family life with two young kids could never compare to a part-time lover. But a live-in barely-known new boyfriend? Perhaps. My W is not easy to live with and can start arguments or be unyielding. He might just not be perfect either, who knows.
How is your detachment? Obviously its not perfect since you are craving her. I don't blame you, I was there for 6 months! At least you're not pursuing like I did lol. What is the most detached you've been during this process?
Interesting question. As I recall, it's in early December when I went on two trips and I didn't have the kids for 12 straight days. The change of scenery, the ego boost I got from my friends and not having the kids helped me replenish my energy reserves.
My detachment came from the idea that I wasn't such a bad husband after all and that my W made a big mistake when she left me for this new guy and that she'd come to regret it.
Detachment will come when you no longer care whether SHE regrets it b/c YOU will be happy.
HER happiness or misery are NOT indices for your happiness. If she wins the lottery, you are not suddenly poor. If her car breaks down, that does not mean you now own a sports car.
There's no connection between HER emotional state and yours.
THAT is when you will be detached. The above words mean you are still keeping score, but that you gave yourself more points when with friends who boosted your ego. There's nothing "wrong" with that, but
Real detachment is ditching the scorecard completely.
The idea that the "Best revenge is a life well lived" isn't really spot on, (b/c they are using the term "revenge" and that's not an appropriate term for a parent of your kids)
but it's closer to the healthy truth.
I'm more detached than at the beginning. I really try to avoid information about her and too many interactions. So it's evolving, even though I'm not there.I'm observing your (sudden!) evolution and seeing how it sticks, and maybe how it can inspire me.
Thanks for sharing your story and helping me see through mine.
Mozza,
As we are separating with your move out, things will be different between us. We are not best friends but separated spouses. I will be cordial when it comes to our children and logistics related to them. It was your choice to move out. This is necessary for me to move forward. Thanks, Mozza.
Thanks all. I'm really grateful for the outpouring of support and suggestions for this milestone in my sitch. Here's a translation of the message I'm about to send.
"Yes, I suggest we don't meet for lunch. You've chosen to leave and now I need to reduce our contacts to move on. I'll continue to be cordial and to collaborate for all that relates to the kids."
It's nice....send it away.
Sent. Phew. Not easy. Thanks a lot Wonka, your endorsement helped me push the button.
I read the thread on boundaries. I think I understand the concept fairly well.
What's hard is the boundary itself. In my heart, I don't want to push my W away. I want to email her, banter, talk on the phone, meet her. I miss her. I'm very deliberate and when I chose her as my W, as the mother of my children, it was for good, my heart was in it entirely. I felt for her and told her words of love I never said before and never intended to say to someone else. I know I failed her and haven't been a good husband, but I thought we were a normal couple and I was still trying to make things better every day.
Now I need to pull my heart out of there, inch by inch, and I can't do it fast enough to avoid the hurt of seeing her gone and with someone else. I know I'll have to detach and focus on myself and I believe I'm making progress. But I'm not there yet. I still want to live my life with her, and I want 100% of my daughters and I want to be there for all three of them.
You've all seen how hard it's been for me to give up her Facebook posts, but I did it in a moment of resolve and it worked well for me. I dread FB much less now, I think about W a little less. I've taken this step today with the same resolve: not that I'm detached enough to do it, but that it will help me detach. Also, because it's the Method and I need to trust the process even when it's counter-intuitive even when it goes against my feelings.
I wish I felt better about it though. It takes time.
-----
She replied: "Very well. This way, we're clear."
I'm already dead.
Onward...
Mozza,
Wow, good for you to send it. I'll tell you I read what you wrote and instantly said to myself....Who would want to do this to Mozza? If me on some forum starts second guessing someone else's decision, it must have an impact on her.
Her response was base on how she felt for the time after she read the text. Not on a day of planning and the vast input that you got here. Do not read anything into her response.
Also painful, but beautiful words about your W and M. What fool would leave Mozza?? You're doing good. Tough day for you, I'm sure.
I agree with MCS - lovely words about your w, she must be a fool.
Mozza, that must have been tough but you did good.
Now I need to pull my heart out of there, inch by inch, and I can't do it fast enough to avoid the hurt of seeing her gone and with someone else. I know I'll have to detach and focus on myself and I believe I'm making progress. But I'm not there yet. I still want to live my life with her, and I want 100% of my daughters and I want to be there for all three of them.
I'm so sorry you're hurting today.
It takes a while to get properly detached but the best way to do it is to envision your life the way you want it, and then just go for it.
I know that's really hard when what you want is your W, but that's just one thread of a big tapestry of possibility. A little at a time is the way to go. Coming back here for all the cheerleading helps a TON.
What are you grateful for about today?
Now I need to pull my heart out of there, inch by inch, and I can't do it fast enough to avoid the hurt of seeing her gone and with someone else. I know I'll have to detach and focus on myself and I believe I'm making progress. But I'm not there yet.
Mozza, you and I agree that we're DB brothers. Extremely similar sitches, similar tendancies for both of us (although I pursued more). I have a few months head start with pain and processing, and here's something Ive learned recently: You HAVE to feel that pain. I'm not saying you should pursue more pain, like browsing her FB posts would do. You'll run into plenty of it on your own, as you well know. But your goal, not your ultimate goal, but your day-by-day, hour-by-hour, minute-by-minute goal should be to process your emotions in a healthy way when they come, not to avoid them, fight them, ignore them or even to grow out of them. Acknowledge that they're there, experience them while they're there, but know that your emotions are not
you, just like rain is not you even though it soaks you. And when an emotion begins to subside, just wave goodbye to it and acknowledge your next emotion. And if you put yourself in the right situations (GAL, family and friends, be around things or people that make you laugh, etc), more and more often, that next emotion will be something positive. Do you struggle when you're around your kids, like it reminds you of what is missing? If so, I completely empathize with that. Stick with everything, though, and they will eventually turn back into a source of joy.
Great job today. You da man, Moz
And I found the short animation from Headspace on YouTube that illustrates a lot of what I just said. If you like this video and haven't tried headspace (app), try it! There is a free version with ten 10-minute exercises, then more content for pay if you really like it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7xAeJKgupPI
Acknowledge that they're there, experience them while they're there, but know that your emotions are not you, just like rain is not you even though it soaks you.
Labug has a really cool saying: I am the sky. The rest is only weather.
Hi Mozza
I think you did great. At times like these we are in battle between our head and our heart. Logically you knew what to do. You just needed to be reminded. If you had gone for lunch it would have been hard on you. For the moment it would have felt good to see her but you would have been struggling to have a conversation that didn't include the white elephant in the room ( OM). You would have left the lunch feeling emptier. She would have filled her cup getting to catch up with you leaving your cup emptier. Make sense?
You will have other opportunities to show her your PMA. During exchanges with the kids ect.
Keep with the GAL do things that fill your cup. Get to know yourself and become the Man only a fool would leave.
Thanks for writing on my thread. I did respond to you there too.
Thanks all. I'm really grateful for the outpouring of support and suggestions for this milestone in my sitch. Here's a translation of the message I'm about to send.
"Yes, I suggest we don't meet for lunch. You've chosen to leave and now I need to reduce our contacts to move on. I'll continue to be cordial and to collaborate for all that relates to the kids."
If I'm too late, then so be it. But that one sentence^^ is just you blaming her, again.
Can't you ever just tell her how you feel about less contact & moving forward -
and Not bring up or "Explain" anything else? I'm betting she'd be able to guess why.
Now, I think she'll again see you as still blaming her and unchanged, and
at best, she'll tell herself to treat you with kid gloves, for "even longer"...
Is that really your goal? (I know it's not.)
Sure, You will tell yourself you "just had to tell her" so you could protect yourself,
but that's why I left part of your wording^^ up there. It's that crossed out sentence that will get you every time.
Let it go. Move forward for real, GAL for real and DETACH.
Those^^ are reasons to reduce contact w/your w...(& you could have said those).
Anyhow, I don't want to beat a dead horse.
Carry on Mozza, Because in general
you're still very much on course
There are very good things around the corner for you. Get excited about the life You are creating for yourself. It's time for that.
.
What's hard is the boundary itself. In my heart, I don't want to push my W away. I want to email her, banter, talk on the phone, meet her. I miss her. I'm very deliberate and when I chose her as my W, as the mother of my children, it was for good, my heart was in it entirely. I felt for her and told her words of love I never said before and never intended to say to someone else. I know I failed her and haven't been a good husband, but I thought we were a normal couple and I was still trying to make things better every day.
Oh, Mozza. I'm exactly the same. When I first explained my sitch to my IC, she looked at me and endearingly said "Your an albatross" (she's similar).
This quote seems fitting: An albatross may fly great distances over the oceans, but despite its extensive travels, this bird will always return to the same place — and the same partner.
So...time for us to fly those great distances, GAL and become the people only a fool would leave. Then we'll see what awaits us when we return from our extensive travels.
"Yes, I suggest we don't meet for lunch. You've chosen to leave and now I need to reduce our contacts to move on. I'll continue to be cordial and to collaborate for all that relates to the kids."
If I'm too late, then so be it. But that one sentence^^ is just you blaming her, again.But, but, but... I was following the advice given here! I had already greatly reduced this part of the message.
As you probably can tell, I'm rather soft-hearted and I'm getting hard-line advice here. I'm willing to trust the process, especially as there seems to be so little to lose while my W lives with OM. I don't know how to phrase it just now, but I'd really welcome diverging advice that would allow me to choose something with which I'm more comfortable.
Mozza,
Yeah,you're probably in the same boat as I am. This approach is so different than how we think, but it works. So we go back and try to analyze and listen to all of the input we can. Then what we get is some analysis paralysis especially because we are uncomfortable. This is where my counselors now trying to work with me to let me understand that I can't control what I do or say at all times With worry about how it may or may not affect the outcome. I need to do what I can do in the present and leave the outcome to faith.
You did well Mza.
Cherish this moment it marks another milestone change made with self respect and reduces drama. Your life is calming and so are you.
V
From your personal experience, you know how precious the support of this community can be. I'm very very grateful to everyone who dropped by to say nice things. Just knowing you're thinking of me means a lot to me. Thank you.
Wow, good for you to send it. I'll tell you I read what you wrote and instantly said to myself....Who would want to do this to Mozza? If me on some forum starts second guessing someone else's decision, it must have an impact on her.
Thanks
MCS but... I don't understand. What section makes you second guess?
Also painful, but beautiful words about your W and M. What fool would leave Mozza??
Answer: a brilliant woman who hasn't heard those words in a long time. You know when's the last time I wrote her "I love you"? Her birthday in February 2014 and before that, an email in April 2013. No wonder she told me during the S talks: "I had no idea you loved me so much." But it was too late. It's me, the fool.
I feel like a parent who turns around in a shopping center and his kid has disappeared. "I was just distracted for a minute, I can't be punished this much. I was just distracted!"
I have a lot of kind words for my W and in fact, I love to write love letters. My W loves how I write these things and she's very touched by words. But now, she's gone, with OM, and it's not an option. It's not things that she is ready to read. Before she left, I told her I had so many things to say to her yet so little time, and she said: "You can write me, I'll read you." but I never did it because it's pursuing. I've written some of these ideas in a personal document, so it might serve one day.
What are you grateful for about today?
Thanks a lot
Maybell for giving me your words of support. You're a wise woman on these boards and I appreciate your attention. I tried to list things for which I'm grateful, but could never remember to do it. Yesterday, I'd say I'm grateful my neighbors accepted my dinner invitation, even though I overcooked the meat. ;-)
Carry on Mozza, Because in general you're still very much on course. There are very good things around the corner for you. Get excited about the life You are creating for yourself. It's time for that.
- Thank you for saying that, it's encouraging. Thanks also for the clarifications about detachment. I know I'm not there. I's nice to know where I should be headed.
Mozza, you and I agree that we're DB brothers. Extremely similar sitches, similar tendancies for both of us (although I pursued more). I have a few months head start with pain and processing, and here's something Ive learned recently: You HAVE to feel that pain.
Thanks a lot
Card29. Yes, I follow your sitch very closely and learn from your journey. I was very impressed at your quick change and am eager to see how it will play out. It's interesting that OM dumped your W, though in my case, OM dumped his girlfriend and now lives with my W...
Thanks a lot for your recommendations on how to get a hold of my emotions. I've watched the video and I have the Headspace app on my phone. I'm really not comfortable with meditation - I liken it to trying to stand on a static bike. It's because my brain is used to solving problems by going into overdrive, not resting. Perhaps with practice...
So...time for us to fly those great distances, GAL and become the people only a fool would leave. Then we'll see what awaits us when we return from our extensive travels.
It's funny you should use this image,
ganb8te. At S, I told my wife that we'd have to go through this experience and that we'd see if we meet on the other side. It wasn't a return, but it was the same idea of a journey. It was my way of setting her free while saying I'd be moving on, as I have to.
Vanilla, jim0987, Karma12, Toots, stacey9, HPoirot - Also thank you for your kind words. I've read them several times and they help me.
Mozza,
Sorry, I worded that weird, I see how it didn't make sense.
I was trying to say that when I read it, it made an impact on me that instantly made me feel empathy for you and I don't even know you.
What I was trying to get across was that if I were Mozza's W, it would make me second guess leaving Mozza.
Thanks a lot Card29. Yes, I follow your sitch very closely and learn from your journey. I was very impressed at your quick change and am eager to see how it will play out. It's interesting that OM dumped your W, though in my case, OM dumped his girlfriend and now lives with my W...
Thanks a lot for your recommendations on how to get a hold of my emotions. I've watched the video and I have the Headspace app on my phone. I'm really not comfortable with meditation - I liken it to trying to stand on a static bike. It's because my brain is used to solving problems by going into overdrive, not resting. Perhaps with practice...
Yes, but remember, their R started back in May/June. It lasted about the average length of the typical A (~6 months). Don't worry about your WAW's R with OM...it probably won't last, but even so, worrying about it will only hurt you and your detachment. As far as my quick change of heart...I'm just as surprised as anyone, with how obsessed with WAW I was the previous 6-1/2 months, but 2 weeks later, am just as detached, if not more so. We shall see.
I have the same issue with Headspace. I am a thinker (it's 2:00 am because I've just been thinking and thinking for 6 hours now, ever since D2 went to bed! We'll see if I develop the "skill" of meditation. So far I have enjoyed Headspace but some of the tasks have been difficult for me. Especially having a "soft focus" (my mind's response is, "Okay. But what, exactly, are we softly focusing on?") and scanning the body to see how everything feels. When I try to actually do that, I can't tune in to any particular point on my body! I will keep trying, though. In general, I feel good after a 10 minute Headspace sessions.
Mozza,
I laugh everytime I type your name because my auto correct wants to type mozzarella lol
Don't think that is all wine and roses with the OM. Once the infatuation stage passes and normal life problems appear it doesn't take long for the rose to lose it's bloom. My H thought he found his soulmate in Eastern Europe. It was all fun when he was meeting her while traveling on business. The scandalous behavior can be alluring. Once she came here and was staying with him it was only a few months before heaven became hell. Lol He told me it was the worst year of his life. He was on the rebound and his stress level was so high he went to hospital more than once with anxiety attacks.
A friend of mine came by today and her H left in July to be with OM. Again all fun at first. Now he's saying he made a huge mistake. Everything I told her that would happen has.
All you have control over is you. The one thing you share is a history. Keep up the PMA. Keep GAL. Be the man only a fool would leave. Fill your life with activities and friends. When you are happy as a person it will shine out. You got this Mozza
I feel like my W is turning into that of HPoirot, except for the tone. After my email about reducing communications, she managed to contact me three times yesterday. In the morning, she emailed me about getting some children CDs from me. In the afternoon, she called about a problem at school (was far from phone, didn't pick up) and then sent me texts about it. I quickly responded to the text, but took 12 hours to respond to the email about the CDs. There was no rush anyway, but I'll try to be quicker in the future.
By the way, anyone has read "The Year of Magical Thinking" by Joan Didion? It's a personal essay about the grief surrounding the sudden death of her husband. Weirdly, my W just read it and found it "amazing".
Well Mza, you are very much alive and stronger than ever.
V
I have seen you say many times how you are afraid of pushing your W away. As a former WAW, I try to tell you LBH'S that what you fear pushes her away, in reality, draws her closer.
The fact is........you can't push her away b/c she's already away, right? Like in the Band the Band of Brothers where they say, "We are already dead". It is your FEAR of pushing her farther away that is actually preventing you from detaching. You are afraid of losing her...........however, you have already lost her. How can you lose what is already gone? (Sorry, I know that stings.)
Mozza, you have to
want to detach. You don't want to. You have intentially clung to her emotionally.
I may not have the same LBS experiences that some here on the board have had, but before I met my H I was in love with another young man. He broke my heart and I do know how it feels to be rejected. I am not sure if it was my pride or self respect, but I was determined I would not sit around and grieve over him. I refused to cry over what may have been or how badly I had been hurt. I made myself move forward, and I knew nothing about detaching back then.......but that was really what I was doing. I realize this is a very poor comparison to your stitch, b/c we were not M and did not have hildren. But, my point is that I believe one has to want to detach, be determined, and start doing the necessary action to get there. And, as long as you are afraid of "losing" what you have already lost.......you will never accomplish detaching from her emotionally.
That is why you have so much trouble with boundaries, b/c in your mind, you fear it will cause you to lose her. Not meeting her for lunch was a step in the right direction. That is an example of determining to take detaching steps.
Wow sandi12,
This post is so powerful I cant tell you what a gem it is for me. I have gone through hoops for this kind of gem. I really see more and more how grounded detachment can be for me to be successful. Im still so early in my sitch. I wonder how can I have the patirnce to see out what I want. Yes none of us need our r. But with that said Im not on this site for kicks. I wanna know how I can strip down to the bare essentials in my life to have what I want and keep it. Im not here to vent well I am but Im mostly here to change my thinking process on life. I have came to some realizations through my children and EXh that have cut me to the core. At the same time I have longed for my family to be healthy and happy. I wanted to always have the best marriage ever. I had NNOOOO Clue on how...I even took family classes in college. I have tried with the same ole same ole time and time again. And to be honest my exh tried to believe in me. He wanted to trust that I can save us thats why he came back after the divorce was final. Of course him losing his job and questions about us selling our home became most heated and we both handled it wrong.
My point is I have to detach to save us all. We have kids no matter what he is a big factor in my life. We have shared custody. Well Im grateful for a chance to change. My ex might not be giving me one inch of a chance right now but hey I had these dreams and I loved before him and I will love after him if God has it that way.
I wanna give up I wanna gie in to my old ways or even the 37 No Nos but...Im pretty much becoming my own woman again and I am forver thankful for my gains. Despite my nights of crying out in excruciating pain. I like last night got up and proclaimed trust in the almighty. I do not see whats to come but Im certain he has me covered.
GAL ON!!
Thank you, Faith, that means a lot.
Woah sandi2, you NAILED it. This is exactly my problem at this stage and has been for a few weeks or months. Let me muse and reply in details because it touches on struggles and questions I have.
I have seen you say many times how you are afraid of pushing your W away. As a former WAW, I try to tell you LBH'S that what you fear pushes her away, in reality, draws her closer.
I repeat that to myself and I act accordingly. I put a lot of stock in your experience. While I easily get that pursuing is off-putting, it's so counter-intuitive to accept that refusing to interact and meet with her will draw her closer... I'm afraid she'll never come to miss me because she'll remember me as the guy she left, not the man I'm becoming. But I do it. I do it.
To be fair, during the nine days of in-house separation, I was the one soliciting her and she was very distant. Since she left, I've given her space, as per DB principles, and the roles have somewhat reversed. She's the one initiating all communications, trying to engage with fun emails and calls. Also, the day after I said let's communicate only about the kids, she managed to contact me three times about them. So she wants more than I give her. Maybe it's working.
The fact is........you can't push her away b/c she's already away, right? Like in the Band the Band of Brothers where they say, "We are already dead". It is your FEAR of pushing her farther away that is actually preventing you from detaching. You are afraid of losing her...........however, you have already lost her. How can you lose what is already gone? (Sorry, I know that stings.)
Don't hold back, sandi2, we need to have those conversations.
Is she really gone? I admit I haven't accepted it yet. It's crazy, under my sitch, but I feel like we're in this conversation about our R, that she's showing me the extent of the pain I caused her, and that she wants to know I love her enough to man up and become a better H.
Isn't it you (or 25yearsmlc?) who says that we only seem to learn through hardship? Well, this is the first time of my life that I've been dumped. At 38, you'd think I had the experience to absorb new challenges, but no, I feel like I'm 15 years old. I can't seem to understand the consequences of when another person doesn't want you anymore.
Mozza, you have to want to detach. You don't want to. You have intentially clung to her emotionally.
BINGO! You're absolutely right. I don't
want to. Something in me believes that if I detach, I will lose her forever. Like my attachment and pain are the last threads connecting us. I understand it makes no sense, but my heart still believes it.
Maybe I'll have a 180 like Card29, in the span of 24 hours. I'll detach under some external shock. What could it be? Telling me she didn't love me anymore, leaving our home, finding an OM, moving in with him... None of this worked. I'm thick. Probably stupid.
While I easily get that pursuing is off-putting, it's so counter-intuitive to accept that refusing to interact and meet with her will draw her closer... I'm afraid she'll never come to miss me because she'll remember me as the guy she left, not the man I'm becoming. But I do it. I do it.
I understand how you would be afraid. It is a man's nature (I think) to pursue. Pursuing is how you got the girl the first time, so it only makes sense to you to do it again. Only with a WAW in an A, it has a different dynamic. Remember Mozza, she wanted what she didn't have? Same thing applies here. If she believes she can't have you so easily, her nature will draw her in closer. It is the way of human beings.
To be fair, during the nine days of in-house separation, I was the one soliciting her and she was very distant. Since she left, I've given her space, as per DB principles, and the roles have somewhat reversed. She's the one initiating all communications, trying to engage with fun emails and calls. Also, the day after I said let's communicate only about the kids, she managed to contact me three times about them. So she wants more than I give her. Maybe it's working.
It will as long as you have the right kind of spirit about it. A lot has been said about anger over on HP's thread. It is very important in this stage of your stitch that you not act as if you are mad at her or wanting to punish her. If you do, then
that will send her away for good. I know it is difficult to get it just right, and it is not easy for me to describe in words. I am guilty of using the character of Rhett Butler in his way with Scarlett. She would try all her feminine wiles and he would just grin (and sometimes laugh) at her, as if he knew exactly what she was trying to do.....and it wasn't going to work on him. Although he got a kick out of her childlike ways, he definitely drew the line at some of her bad behavior. And when he finally had enough and walked away, she immediately set out to get him back again. In the sequel to Gone With the Wind, "Scarlett", he told her it was never a question of loving her....but living with loving her. That is what you have to do, Mozza, learn to live with loving her. We aren't asking you to stop loving her.
Is she really gone? I admit I haven't accepted it yet. It's crazy, under my sitch, but I feel like we're in this conversation about our R, that she's showing me the extent of the pain I caused her, and that she wants to know I love her enough to man up and become a better H.
She is gone for now. Is she gone for good? IDK, that remains to be seen. However, I have seen many LBH's say about the same thing you have said here, and I don't know that I ever remember a WAW who was in an A saying those things. B/c I don't believe she is thinking along those lines when she gets involved with another man. When she emotionally left the M, she had given up on you becoming better/different or having a better MR. I don't think I have ever seen a LBH express the correct thoughts of the WAW mind yet.
And don't take this the wrong way, but since so many LBH's say similar things, I have to wonder if it is their excuse to themselves to not turn loose. "She wants me to fight for the marriage". Not if she's with another guy.
Something in me believes that if I detach, I will lose her forever.
Yet, you admit that just pulling back has drawn her in. I still think maybe you are seeing detaching as a negative action, instead of positive. A lot of people have a problem getting the entire concept. Maybe if we could think of a better term........
What could it be? Telling me she didn't love me anymore, leaving our home, finding an OM, moving in with him... None of this worked. I'm thick. Probably stupid.
No, you are not thick or stupid. Everyone has their own threshold for pain, right? Same thing here. Only you will know when it's time to move on. We push about detaching b/c that is what is best (mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and physically) for the LBS while the WAS is going through their crisis.
I think for many men, their ego becomes an issue. As you said, this is the first time for you and you really don't know how to deal with it. From what I have read on the boards, some men get too focused on getting her back (like in "winning") and aren't really doing the work they should be doing on themselves throughout the process. So many who have "won" the W back again,
then has a big problem with resentment and forgiveness and are on the verge of becoming the WAS themselves.
I may not have the same LBS experiences that some here on the board have had, but before I met my H I was in love with another young man. He broke my heart and I do know how it feels to be rejected. I am not sure if it was my pride or self respect, but I was determined I would not sit around and grieve over him. I refused to cry over what may have been or how badly I had been hurt. I made myself move forward, and I knew nothing about detaching back then.......but that was really what I was doing. I realize this is a very poor comparison to your stitch, b/c we were not M and did not have hildren. But, my point is that I believe one has to want to detach, be determined, and start doing the necessary action to get there. And, as long as you are afraid of "losing" what you have already lost.......you will never accomplish detaching from her emotionally.
Thanks for sharing. You're right, the kids throw a wrench in the whole thing. I'm afraid that if I manage not to love her anymore and she comes back, I will be the one who threw away our family life and the stability and presence I wanted for my kids.
As I wrote before, we're in my country now but she's from a different continent. Our lives will become a maze once we have different partners with their own lives. She wants to go back in a few years (she told me so), but I might not go with her if we're separated. I've no family or friends where she's from. Oh, the mess.
That is why you have so much trouble with boundaries, b/c in your mind, you fear it will cause you to lose her. Not meeting her for lunch was a step in the right direction. That is an example of determining to take detaching steps.
Thanks. It went even further when she asked why I didn't want to go to lunch and I told her that I needed the space to move on. That means that I've also cut off her informal communications, which were almost daily and openly meant to maintain a certain relationship between us.
Basically, my fear is that she'll want to come back but will feel pushed away by me and not come and tell me. We both have strong fear of rejection that can make us act like jerks (rejecting so as not to be rejected) and against our self-interest. Is this really unreasonable?
No Mza, that is not an unreasonable question to ask will coolness and detachment drive away a spouse. I ask it of myself daily, when H is picking at an open wound and making it bleed. The coolness and detachment seems to attract but passiveness, aggression and petulant silence surely will drive H away. He knows there has to be space for love and new shoots of an R, to entice him to bridge the gap in his own soul. Otherwise his shame on realisation of his behaviour will drive him away.
I have my boundaries which are very basic
1. I will be treated with respect and if not my boundary is enforced
2. I will sleep alone rather than with a drunk, and I will not condone alcohol to excess in my home
3. H will pay his share of the daily bills
4. I can go GAL, go to GAManon, have my friends in my home without rudeness or criticism
5. The SO in my life will not be R with another
6. I am financial independent because of gambling
In return
1. H can continue to share a house until we sell and then that will be reconsidered
2. I will continue to love respect and care for H even if no R
3. I will attend to my house and work
4. H can do as he pleases without any explanation
5. I will be pleasant, civil and respond to H concerns, texts and emails, get medicine, soup etc when H is 'ill'
6. I will stand for my M, but R is a joint decision and requires two fully active parties, in growth forever
7. I will detach and remain calm living one day at a time
That is how I live my life, imperfectly, sometimes in pain and hurt, sometimes I am irritable and unhappy, but that is my concern not for H. I have worked hard for those feelings, they are mine and I own them. They are personal to me to work on. As is my DB and the things these wonderful lads and lasses here discuss with me.
Mza, I have never developed as a person as much in my life. I am sure this process is the same for all. You too will have your boundaries and list of self that you are prepared to give.
Vanilla
I may not have the same LBS experiences that some here on the board have had, but before I met my H I was in love with another young man. He broke my heart and I do know how it feels to be rejected. I am not sure if it was my pride or self respect, but I was determined I would not sit around and grieve over him. I refused to cry over what may have been or how badly I had been hurt. I made myself move forward, and I knew nothing about detaching back then.......but that was really what I was doing. I realize this is a very poor comparison to your stitch, b/c we were not M and did not have hildren.
But, my point is that I believe one has to want to detach, be determined, and start doing the necessary action to get there. And, as long as you are afraid of "losing" what you have already lost.......you will never accomplish detaching from her emotionally.
This^^ makes a lot of sense, as you know.
Mozz, I sense that you want to detach IF IT MEANS you are protecting yourself and Not becoming indifferent.
Detachment is not indifference, so much as the self protection mode of being alright, regardless. And regardless, here, means "independent Of", so there's no co-dependence issues either. And btw, have you read "Co-dependent, No More"? I hear it is helpful on this dimension of DBing.
I can't "prove" that my h woke up when I detached. I know I did.
But he certainly did show more interest in me and our future, when I no longer believed we would make it, but that I was going to be more than "just alright", regardless. I was getting excited about the life I was creating for myself and the children.
Here's an exercise for you, that may help clarify or solidify some ideas.
Imagine that you are a widower, and that enough time has passed that most of your grief over the loss of your w, has subsided.
You've gotten past the most painful parts and moved on and now, you find yourself in a really good place. You are now happy, despite having no w in your life.
What would that picture look like? What would you be doing? Living where?
And any new hobbies? What are they? What about travels? Going or living in a new cool place?
Did you go back to school for fun, AND OR to study something for your job? Did you get a new or better job?
What about getting another credential? Learning a new language?
What about the kids? (In this exercise, they are also doing well). Are you guys doing different things together, making new traditions - and or, maintaining the family traditions they and you always loved?
Flesh out this^^^ picture in your mind, for a few minutes.
Really get some details about your new, happy life, that you're living without your w.
What would life be like if you were without your w, but happy anyhow?
Okay....sit on that for a few....and then ask yourself this:
"Which of those ^^ items/activities, could I be doing, now?"
Thanks for sharing. You're right, the kids throw a wrench in the whole thing.
I'm afraid that if I manage not to love her anymore and she comes back, I will be the one who threw away our family life and the stability and presence I wanted for my kids.
Since you now know that Love is always at least partly a choice, you can make a different choice.
BTW, I like the phrase "Love is a verb. Thus, it always requires action."As I wrote before, we're in my country now but she's from a different continent. Our lives will become a maze once we have different partners with their own lives.
She wants to go back in a few years (she told me so), but I might not go with her if we're separated. I've no family or friends where she's from. Oh, the mess.
First of all, things and people change their minds, often. Plus your kids cannot live there without your permission/consent til they are adults.
Don't borrow trouble from tomorrow when you have enough on today's plate.
Besides,when you really think about it, these issues^^ are not your problems, they are your wife's.
That is why you have so much trouble with boundaries, b/c in your mind, you fear it will cause you to lose her. Not meeting her for lunch was a step in the right direction. That is an example of determining to take detaching steps.
Thanks. It went even further when she asked why I didn't want to go to lunch and I told her that I needed the space to move on.
That means that I've also cut off her informal communications, which were almost daily and openly meant to maintain a certain relationship between us.
Then when discussions about the kids happen, which I assume they will, you can tweak things as you are more confident and detached.
I don't recall you saying you "never" want to talk to her about anything but the kids, but just that for now, this is what you need.
Correct?
Basically,
my fear is that she'll want to come back but will feel pushed away by me and not come and tell me.
Okay, this^^ is a fear I know very well. I worried about the same thing.
In my case, another belief was that my h was the type to make an effort and big gesture and then if it wasn't immediately snatched up, he'd retreat and we'd never reconcile.
But here's the catch.
IF your wife does someday want to reconcile, wouldn't you need a tad more than one probing question or gesture from her?
Wouldn't you NEED (never mind the 'tail between the legs remorse' and shame we all think we want...)
But wouldn't you actually Need some evidence from her that she wasn't going to repeat the past behaviors?
(And wouldn't she need the same assurance from you?)
You are afraid you would not be "keeping the road home, paved & smooth."
Of course I hope you're able to have SOME face to face chats long before any talk of reconciliation happens.
Like you, I can't see a sudden awakening on her end, as the result of having no contact with you in person.
Like you, I don't know how she'd see the new/improved you, for her to know whether she wants to reconcile.
However, these issues and dilemmas are all moot right now. Can you guess why they are moot at this point and thus, do not matter?
(Don't bother guessing, b/c I'll just tell you!!)
The reason this^^ and thoughts of "how we can ever reconcile"
and what she'll know or think about you and your new changes,
are all moot at this point, is
b/c You are not detached enough to be around her, without feeling crappy AND OR somehow making the situation worse.
Is that it, in a nutshell? B/C if so, then we need to help you detach FIRST and then figure out other approaches to take to do the DB work that you can do.
We both have strong fear of rejection that can make us act like jerks
(rejecting so as not to be rejected) and against our self-interest. Is this really unreasonable?
I don't believe you are being unreasonable.
I think you have the following circumstances and please, please forgive me AND correct me if I am not recalling the details accurately.
(I hate confusing people with others in this situation b/c it's not just embarrassing but it's also off the mark!!)
The summary:
You met & married. After a fairly short time, you neglected her/were critical of her, & you were hard to live with. (Your words, more or less).
She had a brief fling, she regretted it and you owned your part and you reconciled.
Nothing else inside the marriage changed significantly or for long.
For instance, You rarely told her positive things and you admit now,
that you said positives and even basics e.g. "I love you" about once a year, literally...
So her love languages were not spoken often or nearly enough, for her.
You two argued more. She detached big time. You got more controlling as you sensed losing control.
She wants out and she has an affair.
You have the first awakening, which is "oh dang, I blew it again."
She has not had the type of awakening you seek (**OR she believes she has, and that's why she left**)
She seems to believe that losing you is alright b/c her needs went unmet for so long, that marriage to you means the same thing as that. She knows she had an OM before and even that didn't wake you up for long.
And so, regardless of an OM, SHE thinks you cannot change and thus, she made the "Right" choice to leave.
NOW...and in the near future...
She wants a relationship with you as, at least, good co-parents.
She MAY also harbor self doubt about her choice to leave.
She MAY wonder if you are changing for real, and she MAY care if you are.
Mozz, I don't think ANY Woman leaving a h and child(ten) could have zero 2nd thoughts.
Absent abuse, every single mother is going to wonder if she's doing right by her kids, by leaving. (MORE ON THIS, LATER)
I think you fear that she believes or fears the following:
that if she were to come home to you, it would require way too much work on her end, and only or mostly on HER end, for her to be able to do it and maintain self respect. = Too much shame would be heaped on her.
Sort of "well life with Mozz wasn't great anyhow, and now he'll make me pay for ever wanting out, so no thanks."
AND OR
'Mozz will hold the A over my head forever and or throw it in my face every time he gets angry, so 'no thanks'. Why bother trying if he's setting me up to fail?"
WHEREAS YOU WISH she'd come to wonder or believe that
"Wow, Mozz is a changed man. He's a really good father. He is now the way I always wanted him to be. He's now truly the man I thought he was when I married him...
wow I wonder if we could make it work, this time...
what if I'm willing to own my part and prove my commitment to him?
What would that look like? "
That^^ is what you wish for, correct?
Because if it is, then we can advise you best that way.
Let us know.
NOW...and in the near future...
She wants a relationship with you as, at least, good co-parents.
She MAY also harbor self doubt about her choice to leave.
She MAY wonder if you are changing for real, and she MAY care if you are.
Mozz, I don't think ANY Woman leaving a h and child(ten) could have zero 2nd thoughts.
Absent abuse, every single mother is going to wonder if she's doing right by her kids, by leaving. (MORE ON THIS, LATER)
I think you fear that she believes or fears the following:
that if she were to come home to you, it would require way too much work on her end, and only or mostly on HER end, for her to be able to do it and maintain self respect. = Too much shame would be heaped on her.
Sort of "well life with Mozz wasn't great anyhow, and now he'll make me pay for ever wanting out, so no thanks."
AND OR
'Mozz will hold the A over my head forever and or throw it in my face every time he gets angry, so 'no thanks'. Why bother trying if he's setting me up to fail?"
WHEREAS YOU WISH she'd come to wonder or believe that
"Wow, Mozz is a changed man. He's a really good father. He is now the way I always wanted him to be. He's now truly the man I thought he was when I married him...
wow I wonder if we could make it work, this time...
what if I'm willing to own my part and prove my commitment to him?
What would that look like? "
That^^ is what you wish for, correct?
Because if it is, then we can advise you best that way.
Let us know.[/color]
25yrsmlc,
Many of us here wish for what you describe above. I know I do. Thanks for all the time you spend here helping us.
Every WAW with kids, (& probably every WAH too)
will have 2nd thoughts about leaving the m, (absent abuse).
WHEN?
When will they have those doubts or second thoughts? WHEN will they wonder if they really did right by their kids, or themselves?
1) whenever a financial stressor arises, that would not have arisen had she stayed in the m;
2) whenever her child(ren) miss their dad;
3) whenever her child(ren) have had a loving/fun experience with their dad;
4) whenever a love song or good memory pops up. These will increase in frequency as her anger/pain dissipates, if it is not reignited by further conflict;
5) when she sees her stbx, acting calm or confident, and or with a PMA;
6) when her stbx does not fuel her justifications for leaving;
7) when her stbx acts different, incorporating a 180 into his everyday life: i.e. shows real change;
8) whenever family or long standing friends are around and stbx's absence is more pronounced, e.g. holidays, weddings, funerals, etc.
9) every time a child centered event/activity happens, and both parents are there but not really "together".
10) when the stbx has a new R and seems happy, desired by OWs and is seen in a new different/better light.
11) whenever a conflict between she & her stbx, is resolved in a healthy/new way
All of these^^ and more, are times when ALL WAWs will at least wonder about their choice to leave.
At first they'll resolve those doubts by saying "no, stbx is still the same."
If he really does seem different,
at first they'll tell themselves "well, sure but it won't last."
If it seems to be lasting, they'll tell themselves,
"well it would not have lasted/changed, for ME"...but the second thoughts can be very persistent and in time, haunting.
At least the LBSers know they took the hand they were dealt, and played it as well as they could. I'd rather be the LBSer than the WAS for sure. I'm not haunted by my choices.
Assuming the LBSer really did the DB process, the LBSer knows they have improved as people, as parents and as partners. They know they are profoundly different.
Should you have done more, sooner? Yeah, you should have. Bummer...
Is there a single thing you can do, now, about the past?
Nope. You owned your flaws, apologized for them, for real.
If it's "too little too late", you still have the rest of your life for those changes to stick, & help you in your next R. That's not a "Loss"; it's a "Win."
But I really do believe that
--Deep down, a mother of kids who love their dad, who once really did love her h as well, Will look back and wonder what might have been...
I know she will....
Be ready for when she does that, b/c 10 to 1, if you keep at this, she will.
Make sense? Got this?
I feel like my W is turning into that of HPoirot, except for the tone. After my email about reducing communications, she managed to contact me three times yesterday. In the morning, she emailed me about getting some children CDs from me. In the afternoon, she called about a problem at school (was far from phone, didn't pick up) and then sent me texts about it.
I quickly responded to the text, but took 12 hours to respond to the email about the CDs. There was no rush anyway, but I'll try to be quicker in the future.
By the way, anyone has read "The Year of Magical Thinking" by Joan Didion? It's a personal essay about the grief surrounding the sudden death of her husband. Weirdly, my W just read it and found it "amazing".
Yes i've read it. It's very well written, of course. (Joan Didion is an excellent author).
MAYBE this^^ is a clue from your wife about how SHE feels as her m to you may be ending. OR maybe she just shared a "moment" with you. No matter.
I'd read it if I were you--then I'd make a comment to your w about it but Don't see this as pursuit (which always includes expectations).
Meaning, reading a book your spouse says was "amazing", to ME, is Like seeing a movie that she said was "great".
It's not pursuit so much as an acknowledgment that she knows a little about your taste AND OR she's trying to share something with you that felt safe AND OR it shows that you listened to and heard her..
I'm confident she'd notice if you brought it up sometime, like "W, I saw that 'amazing' book you read, by Joan Didion.
THEN insert an authentic observation about the book---& maybe say
something like "So anyway, W, you were right, it was a really good read. Thanks for mentioning it."
Expect nothing to be said by her then, and maybe ever.
Don't wait for a comment or action. Move to the next room or get a drink and go to the next topic, etc....UNLESS she really engages you about it. Then be a "book club member" and discuss it more or ask her about her opinions on it, etc. Do not disagree with her, of course. Find common ground.
There's no way that comment/fact won't register with her. Gives her something to think...and contrast with her new life partner.
Joan Didion has truly mastered a way of explaining her grief. It's powerful and very telling that your w mentioned it.
PS
This thought helped me keep my focus. My DB coach told it to me.
"You want to contrast the life your WAS is creating, wherever, with the life you are creating."
The life my h had up on the tundra, was on what HE called the "Last Frontier", "Gold Rush", and was "Brisk in winters" (FYI, my h never called Alaska "cold as he11") ,
contrasted with
the WARM (literally AND figuratively)
loving sunny (upbeat and PMA) life you have there."
See what that might look like for you.
Powerful stuff and great insight 25, just what I needed right now. I often hope my W will think and feel these things. I just need to back off so they come to her on her own.
That^^ is what you wish for, correct?
Because if it is, then we can advise you best that way.
Let us know.
Exactly. Every word. I couldn't have written it better. I'm in awe. Thank you so much for following and understanding my situation so well.
By the way, anyone has read "The Year of Magical Thinking" by Joan Didion? It's a personal essay about the grief surrounding the sudden death of her husband. Weirdly, my W just read it and found it "amazing".
MAYBE this^^ is a clue from your wife about how SHE feels as her m to you may be ending. OR maybe she just shared a "moment" with you. No matter.
I'd read it if I were you--then I'd make a comment to your w about it but Don't see this as pursuit (which always includes expectations).Yes, I'm reading it. The writing is masterful and the story is gripping. I didn't know Joan Didion.
I should clarify that my W posted about the book on a social media; she did not mention the book directly to me. She knows I follow her though, so with some mind reading, she might have thought it would reach me. I try not to read too much into and want to finish the book before forming an opinion, because I suspect there are many ways to interpret the reference. It could be that she's also experiencing grief. Or that we get over pain, eventually. Oh well, just enjoying the book.
Also, I've just cut off all means of informal communications a few days ago, when I explained why I declined her lunch invitation, so I don't really see how I could tell her that I've read the book until we resume these communications, much later. Still, it might touch her at the right moment that I listen to her.
I wouldn't mindread into the social media post. That only hurts your detachment. It's a little different than if she had told you about the book face-to-face. Bottom line is, detaching and pulling back is your best bet. and it's just my opinion, but since she didn't dkrectly tell you about the book, I find a hard way for you to easily bring it up without pursuing. Maybe an opportunity will present itself, but Mozza, do NOT spend hours of your time thinking of how that might happen! I can't tell you how many hours I spent between August and November having imaginary conversations with WAW in my head, in which I would tell her about my changes (that I was supposedly making for me, lol), ideas for activities with her, etc. and she was always excited and receptive in my mind. Those imaginary convos helped suffocate my detachment, and NONE of them ever happened.
Just enjoy the book because YOU enjoy it. Don't mindread anything from the book or her social media post. Then save your time and energy, put the book down, and stow away your thoughts about the book for another day, when you could talk about it with WAW... IF it ever comes up, which it might not! Obsessing about how this book could help you with WAW has a 2% chance of helping your sitch due to love languages being met, or whatever, and a 100% chance of prolonging your attachment and therefore your suffering. I believe you have a similar fear as I had, that one of your marital failures was not paying attention to her, not sharing intimate conversation or affection, etc, and that if you don't fulfill those failures now, she will not see any difference. Eventually, yes, she will need to see at least glimmers of your changes. But her A with OM needs to in its course first. You are locked in the friendzone/coparent-zone at least until then
And I apologize if some of that doesn't make sense. I'm suddenly extremely sleepy. I fought for concsciousness just to finish it
This thought helped me keep my focus. My DB coach told it to me.
"You want to contrast the life your WAS is creating, wherever, with the life you are creating."
Thank you for this. It is inspiring. Here are a few examples of contrasts.
Home cooked meals. With the kids, I cook every day. It's not always elaborate but the kids love my food and compliment me on it. I involve them in the cooking and they love it. D6 reported that with their mom, they eat pizza "every day".
Kids activities. Every week-end, we do something special, like go see my parents out of town or we find fun stuff to do in town, like the planetarium and such. D6 reported that with their mom, they spend entire weekends in the apartment. I've only heard of one swim session and one walk to the park in 4 months.
Visitors. We often host visitors with the kids, some with children their age. They love it and in fact beg me for more visitors. We also visit at least one friend regularly. I'm not aware that they do anything like that with WAW because they don't go out and she doesn't have many friends of her own. Also, I know she misses some of those friends that we visit.
Music and dance. We put music every night and I pull my stroboscope once a week at least and we have a fun dance session, often with guests. The kids love it and mention it regularly. WAW does put music at her apartment, but she doesn't have a strobe!
Workout. The kids are very attached to the 7-minute workout and insist for doing it almost every day. They babble about it because their mom questioned me about it. My shape has improved. I'm not aware WAW has any such fun routine with them and my she told me she doesn't exercise at the moment.
Fulfilling work. My W knows I love my job (I created it 1.5 years ago). I never complain about it and I act content about work. My WAW reported being increasingly frustrated with her job.
Social media interactions. On Facebook, my W can see that I interact with a lot of people. Also, I started posting daily on Instagram to show the fun stuff I do and see. My account is public and WAW can have a look when she gets curious. I stopped seeing her post, so I can't really compare but she usually got support/feedback from the same 7-8 people who are not even in this country.
Social life. I'm in my country where I grew up so I have tens of friends and family, whom I visit regularly. I also seized a few opportunities to hang out with new people. My WAW is an immigrant here and doesn't have much of a social network beyond her colleagues. I know, because she told me, that she misses my friends and family.
And I have a secret weapon to convey those contrasts:
our family blog. Seven years ago, I set up this private blog where I report several times a week about the kids. It was a way for a picture-obsessed father to keep family and friends informed (we lived abroad at the time). I made it my mission to continue posting through the sitch, so that it looks like life goes on. I'm 99% sure that WAW continues to check it, so she sees all the marvelous things we do.
Anyway, I'm glad your coach gave you this quote because I do work hard to create a fulfilling life for me and the kids. After four months, I can say that these are all habits I do for myself, not for her. Most of it are just a continuation of the family life we had. It would be nice to see it pay off in my sitch nevertheless.
(Of course, when it comes to romance and sex, I don't really compare with her current situation! Trying not to think about it...)
Mza
Drop the competition and scorecard, you are not in competition to be a better dad than w is a mum! It may be that way because W is in a bad space but aim not to notice. Your post appears very edgy and 'so there', I trust that is just reflection rather than attitude Mza. Your lovely daughters deserve the best dad possible and one co-parenting and interacting with their mother. Children come first Mza above all.
W is in a bad place clearly, Try to support her role rather than be in competition. Be as good a dad as you can be which I know is the case. Mza has lost his angry edge, can Mza lose his need to mark his W? Can Mza detach more? I know he will!
V
sorry accidentally psted too soon, fat finger syndrome.
25 said contrast and that means the good things W does as well as the things you believe are poor. For example W has given up going to her own country so her children can have a stable base. W works and supports herself etc but does she have the same level of cash?
In order to full understand then you will have to observe all the good and bad. The things that W does that are done well and better than you can do them as well as that which is worse.
V
Thanks Vanilla. I was not trying to say that I'm superior or in a competition, but that I create a life worth returning to in contrast to many aspects of the life that WAW is creating for herself now. I was responding to 25yearsmlc's prompt.
Mozza,
You are growing. I have read your posts on other threads and I can really see a difference from when you first started posting. We will all keep moving forward. Who knows what life has waiting for us around the next bend.
Thank you Karma12. It's very nice of you to say. I feel I'm changing inside, so it's good to hear that it shows somehow. I comment on stiches where I feel comfortable with the concepts, but there are several where I feel out of my depth and simply don't know what the LBS should do.
I met my IC on Monday. One of our most productive sessions (we had about 15 so far). It seems like I'm 'conflict avoidant'. It is somewhat of a surprise to me because my W and I had lots of fights in the months leading to BD (and in our R, but like most couples, I assumed). I feel I'm one to address the underlying issues head-on, but my IC feels otherwise at the moment. It has something to do with getting into conflicts only when I can predict what will happen, I think.
In any case, it might explain why I have one of the calmest sitches around here. It's not that I lack the elements of conflict: WAW lied heaps to me, she's with OM, she introduced him to kids long before telling me she was in an R with him, she tried to provoke a few fights early on, etc. But I don't see conflicts as productive and my WAW really wants us to be cordial. This is how I got dangerously close to 'gay boyfriend' territory, as Wonka said.
This also probably explains why it's so easy for me to remain silent in the sitch, to not pursue. It's a way to avoid conflicts with WAW. It also jibes with the advice I so freely dole out on these boards, which often leans towards avoiding unnecessary conflicts.
I'm thinking that my WAW is also a conflict avoider, especially as she told me that she didn't want to work on the couple when she left. It was too much energy for her. This is typical conflict avoidance.
I thought I'd chronicle a little of what I learnt about myself, since it relates directly to my sitch. It's amazing how much I've learnt in the last 4 months. I wish I knew that before, but better later than never. Some people get dump and never learn from it. Good on all of us for making the self-discovery efforts.
She wants a D.
She just sent me an email asking whether I'm ready to start preparing the paperwork, knowing that it won't be made official until October 1, one year after she left. She says she'd rather talk in person about it, but she'll respect my desire not to meet for now. She's also ok with having the conversation later. She's suggesting that we try without lawyers at first, considering the costs and that we get along relatively well.
Her email is as clear and kind as it gets, under the circumstances. Not much to read into it. She's had four months to think about it and she's used that time to move in with OM and confirm that she wants a D. She's impulsive and she rushed out of here after meeting OM, but I doubt I can blame her D request on impulsiveness. It appears well-thought out.
Now I need to respond. DB says that D is just papers that it's not the end of the R, so there's no reason to oppose. The answer seems to be: "I don't want to D, but if you want it, I won't stand in your way." Right?
I also want to tell her that there's no rush, that I'd rather not start this process now. That I also need to do some research. But the real reason, and I guess I can't tell her, is that there's a one-year waiting period for a reason: in case the parties reconsider their position.
You all know I'm afraid she's leaving me because she thinks I don't love her enough. I've been crying every single day since she mentioned S four months ago and yet I give her the impression that I'm moving on. You all know it's killing me even if I do it and trust the process.
It also kills me that we're moving towards D even though we're really not that bad together and we have two kids. We can't D for bad reasons. There are so many ways we can be better together. She's not there yet and I can't talk her into it. And I don't show her my changes. So we're moving to D.
I'll be thinking of my email response. Support and suggestions welcome. Thank you so much for being there.
Here's the email I have in mind. It's a mix of DB and what my heart is screaming. I've no idea how it comes across, perhaps because I don't want to see it.
"You know I didn't want to separate and I don't want to divorce, but it's your choice and much like I couldn't keep you from leaving, I can't get in your way if you want to divorce.
I haven't done my research nor sought counsel, so I'm in no rush of starting the process. Also, there is a one-year delay in the law to give time to the couple to think and confirm its decision so I'd rather respect it.
May I ask why you want to start already?"
I go around telling everyone that you can't talk WAS into anything, yet I find myself in the same place, wishing W and I could talk.
Mozza, haven't posted to you in along while, you were getting a lot of great support.
About the email, how about, "OK W, let's talk."
I believe less is more. Nothing you say right now is going to change her mind.
I know this must be difficult.
Mozz,
I would strongly advise NOT to try to do this without your own attorney, no matter how amicable you two are. I have no problem with (and tend to like) using a mutually-agreed-upon mediator, and meeting amicably with them to try and hash everything out, but then I strongly advise people to either retain or just pay hourly their OWN attorney, to review the final document and advise you before signing anything.
Just wanted to throw that out there.
I'm sorry for this news, I know it stings. Anything can still happen, though, although you will need to hear and respect her wishes right now.
Starsky
Here's the email I have in mind. It's a mix of DB and what my heart is screaming. I've no idea how it comes across, perhaps because I don't want to see it.
"You know I didn't want to separate and I don't want to divorce, but it's your choice and much like I couldn't keep you from leaving, I can't get in your way if you want to divorce.
I haven't done my research nor sought counsel, so I'm in no rush of starting the process. Also, there is a one-year delay in the law to give time to the couple to think and confirm its decision so I'd rather respect it.
May I ask why you want to start already?"
I go around telling everyone that you can't talk WAS into anything, yet I find myself in the same place, wishing W and I could talk.
Be careful when you use the "but"...
It says that you don't care what she wants, only to interject your personal agenda...
Be careful when you use the words "you" and "I"....
You will throw around a lot of guilt using them, especially if the WAS wants to hear it differently...
Think on that, and rewrite....
Find YOUR stance, and act from that place, instead of REacting from hers....
I'm wondering if she wants me to resist, if she's checking whether I still love her. But that's me.
I just spoke to a local help line (coincidence: they were calling me to follow up) and the adviser noted that my W may indeed feel the need to be reassured that I'm still there, but that it doesn't mean she wants me.
I'll be thinking some more about my response, but I admit that I'm torn.
Starsky309: Yes, I will speak to an attorney before even meeting to talk about it. We have kids and she's an immigrant here.
Labug: Thanks for your feedback. If I say "Let's talk", then what are we going to talk about?
I'm thinking that my WAW is also a conflict avoider, especially as she told me that she didn't want to work on the couple when she left. It was too much energy for her. This is typical conflict avoidance.
It doesn't necessarily mean she's a conflict avoider, b/c I'm not, and yet I felt the same way about not having the energy to work on my M. I think, based on what I've read, it is pretty much typically thinking of the WAW in an A.
I'm wondering if she wants me to resist, if she's checking whether I still love her. But that's me.
That is LBH thinking, not the thinking of a WAW in an A. She is not wanting you to resist and she doesn't care if you love her or not. At one time, she did, but she is past that point ATM.
Sorry for speaking so plainly, Mozza. You have to realize she is not thinking like you. Don't try to talk her out of it. Don't sound like a victim. Be strong and sound it. Trust me, if anything had influence on her decision right now, it would be for you to talk as though you have no problem with D. After all, that would be a big 180 from the message you usually try to pass along to her. You don't have to remind her you don't want it. She already knows. And she knows you still love her, just for the record.
Mozza, I swear we are twins separated at birth. I had the exact same thoughts a few months ago, and now I see how wrong I was (although I didn't know WAW was having A). My W is DEFINITELY a not a conflict avoided, yet she held in her feelings for the last two years until she met someone and couldn't take it with me anymore. And I second what Sandi says about her thoughts about you...especially when she knows you're still wanting to cling to her (and if it's obvious on here, she probably knows it, too), the last thing she's doing is testing you. It CAN change, but making it the focus of your life will only delay a potential change, or maybe even eliminate the possibility.
Keep walking the DB path, though. Someday it will click for you and you will be so glad you stuck with it. As we know, I was a habitual pursuer, yet I still love the path I walked now.
We have kids and she's an immigrant here.
I see you've been married for a short while....has your wife obtained her permanent resident card, green card and citizenship yet??? There seems to be an awful lot of immigrant brides divorcing after 3, 4 or 5 years of marriage.
Tough to fight for a marriage if she's been playing you, to a certain extent, this whole time. Often there is family pressure to divorce and then sponsor another non-citizen family member over to the US. The desperation to come here legally is tremendous. It's not always that they don't care about their husband's but family promises have been already made.
Could be a factor to consider but an indication you certainly need to see an attorney and make sure you are protected from her leaving with your children back to her homeland.
Thanks everyone. I'm sure it's obvious to all of you how much I still love her, but I really don't do anything to give her that impression. The furthest I've gone is to tell her I don't want to meet her because I need to move on. Other than that, it's been silence, business. We haven't seen each other in a month (1 minute) and we haven't sit down to talk in two months.
OK, I will DB this one too. You all seem very confident, including those that have been through this successfully. It won't be easy: I just had lunch with a friend who got divorced 4 years ago. She discovered later that when her xH sent her the D paper, he didn't really want to: it was to force her to react... Then again, he was not with an OW, so it's different. My WAW is in an A and I trust sandi2 that I don't know how WAW thinks.
I really don't understand the timing of this request. As she says herself (she's done her research), we can't be D until October 1st. Why get started mi-January?
OK, I guess I should reply. Here is the most DB reply I can come up with, completely detached of how I feel.
(15 minutes later)
"OK. I'll have to check a few things first."
Really, I can't think of anything. It's amazing how I lose my means when it comes to my sitch. I'm really not detached. I tried writing it for someone else, but I can't. Id like the email to look less curt than this. I just don't want to come across as pissed or super-controlled.
Here's the full translation of her email, in case it can help.
"Hi,
There's something I'd like to talk to you about. Do you have an idea when you'd want to start looking at the paperwork for the divorce? I read somewhere that it won't be official until October 1, 2015 (one year after we lived separately, but we can submit the papers ahead of time). I'd rather talk about all of this in person, it's less cold and hard. This being said, I can respect your desire not to meet -- at first. And if you prefer to postpone the discussion, I'll understand.
I don't have a lawyer. I looked around and at $$$, I thought we could perhaps start by talking about it (there are ways to do it without talking to a lawyer, if the parents get along relatively well). This being said, I wouldn't want to do the whole process by email and text (re: [friends], although I don't care what others have done).
Well. There. I put the topic on the table. There's no good way to do it, especially not by email.
Thanks,
W"
Inspiration, anyone?
How about a simple:
"Hi,
Yes, ok. Let me check a few things first and I'll get back to you.
Thanks,
Mozza"
Then I'd call and meet a lawyer to understand at least the basics. I'd get back to her within a week or two (depends how fast I get a hold of a good lawyer) and perhaps agree to met. This being said, I feel this is way too early since we can only D in October. I don't like making decisions or even progress during this foggy phase of our S.
I like Labug's suggestion. Then go with a plan to listen to what she has to say. Don't give away much on your side and definitely meet with a lawyer first so you know where you stand. Listen and finish by saying "you've given me lots to think about, I'll get back to you". Oh, and the other line (don't wang this, won't stand in your way).
Reminds me of Maybell's recent experience. Although it must have been hard to sit through, some clarity seemed to come from it. Maybell - please shout out if I've made an incorrect statement there.
Another reason: you're W says she'd rather meet to discuss. Here's an opportunity to show that you hear that need. I don't think it's wet noodle if you bend on this one. It's an important issue and email ain't going to cut it IMHO.
But I'm no vet, so....
Hey Mozza,
I can sympathize with you. Probably best to keep it simple as you posted and Bug suggested.
I'd highly suggest consulting with an attorney at the very least. For me, knowing my rights helped me out tremendously, because things can get ugly when emotions are involved.
Also, her point about understanding if you wanted to postpone the discussion does seem a bit bait-like to me.
So I sent her the message above saying I'd check on a few things and get back to her. I'll call a lawyer tomorrow.
I'm already dead. Why is that so hard to understand?
Hi Mozza, sorry about this. I have a few thoughts.
I totally get that you haven't expressed your feelings of love and sadness to her in a while and have been trying to show you are moving on. I get it. I'm in the same boat. I wonder what my WAH thinks - does he know I am open to reconciliation or does he think I've moved on? Here is the thing, she left you, she went off with OM. She knows it hurt you whatever the case may be. She likely feels guilty even if she doesn't show it. Even if you seem fine and like you are moving on, she still knows what harm she's done. So she probably also worries you still love her and are sad since she was the one who left. Does that make sense? She probably also tries to tell herself that you are doing OK so that she doesn't have to feel guilty. That's all mind reading but basically what I am trying to say (and what others are saying) is that she knows you love/want her.
Regarding this latest development, I think the best thing to do is the DB thing. For me, I would not immediately ask to talk because I would not be able to keep my cool and STFU. I would send an email reply and say something like "thanks for your message, I'll do some research too and maybe we can meet soon to discuss." I don't think I would go into details about stuff like the waiting period and etc. I would NOT disagree or state that you don't want D. I would not resist but not do anything to help it along. Just acknowledge the email, acknowledge the "fact" of D and in a relaxed way deflect it.
Let her respond and lead from there if she wants to go into more details or have a discussion or file. Let her do the work. Don't resist but don't help and offer information. Do get information for yourself!
And you are so right that the waiting period is precisely because many couples cool off and change their minds. Several people I know personally in fact.
Look, she just moved in with OM, right? I'm sure he is giving her an earful about her "still being married". Not only that but she said she wants to go back to her country, so probably is thinking she wants to be officially divorced before that happens. I wouldn't worry too much about this coming so quickly. It makes sense for her to want this NOW. I'd let her go ahead with the process and I bet in a few months she doubts her decision.
Just be cool Mozza and don't worry. Take a deep breath and just reply in a relaxed and casual way.
That's my 2 cents. Good luck!
hugs, Lisa
Thank you LisaB. How I wish that my mom was here, holding me in her arms and telling me what you just wrote...
Everyone is telling me: she knows I still love her and I don't want to D. She knows. I'm grasping at straws because I have this urge to tell her. But the fact is that,
in the moments where I realize that she knows, I actually don't want her to know! I don't want to give her the comfort of knowing she can come back if it doesn't work out without me. I understand that DB is about making her doubt and wonder. It's about making her want what she can't have. So no, she's not trying to make me say I still love her, and even if she does, I don't want to say it. Let her doubt it, let her want me to say "I love you". It would be quite a change. I really wish my heart would get over it and let me DB properly. At least, I control my moves and all she sees is DB.
You're right LisaB, she must hurt and have doubts. She must know she hurt me bad, and likely the kids to some extent. She was afraid I would leave her, she would ask me to profess my commitment, she'd tell me she was afraid I would die. And then she left. She must know how it hurts. When they say that D is one of the most stressful life experience, it also applies to the WAS.
Look, she just moved in with OM, right? I'm sure he is giving her an earful about her "still being married". Not only that but she said she wants to go back to her country, so probably is thinking she wants to be officially divorced before that happens. I wouldn't worry too much about this coming so quickly. It makes sense for her to want this NOW. I'd let her go ahead with the process and I bet in a few months she doubts her decision.
Yes. This is just now. In a way, she's helping me DB. This request is a shock for me because I realize that I had bet on the fact that she didn't mention D. She had even refused to discuss it during the S talks when I brought it up. So I had put hope in this, that she knew she was just making a crazy experiment. But now, the D word is out there and I see she is driving the M towards the ravine, Thelma & Louise style. Time to jump off the M.
I know I don't look like it today, but I have moments where I realize what MWD says about D: it's just paper. M, as an institution, never meant much to my W and I. We got married quickly, for visa-related reasons (though we did our best to make it romantic, at 3 weeks notice). I cling to it now because it serves my purpose. But the reality of our R has always been between us. And this is not going anywhere because of D.
Stockdale paradox: absolute faith that I will prevail coupled with ruthless actions to address the situation at hand.
Mozza-
D is just a piece of paper but it still takes your breath away. However, I'm sure you have read stories of people that R during the D process of after D. Don't let a piece of paper change your course of action. As Lisa said I'm sure she is receiving outside pressure. Plus she is abducted by aliens and is not making clear decisions anyway. Carry on!
Best of luck.
Mozza,
Man, we are close. I'm sitting here thinking about my sitch. W said she wanted D before I confronted with OM, but just the other day she sent me an email asking what I needed for closure, so that's kind of the second time her saying she wants a D, so it's hitting me just like that. It's 3 months after the first mention. I feel your pain bud. I feel the same way, as much as I tried the 'move on' DB tactic, I just can't hold it up, she knows that I want an R, I've said it. but whatever the reason is still trapped in this lie she's in. I thought that maybe she would start to be honest prior to this and then I would know the real person I knew in my M there and this was actually her decision. I just don't understand, feeling for you in all of this. We've got a 1 year wait here in MD, so Im in the same boat.
Feeling for you, we'll get through this.
And you are so right that the waiting period is precisely because many couples cool off and change their minds. Several people I know personally in fact.
Would you care to elaborate? I'm always interested in how these stories work. And the mere fact that they exist...
Here's one, for the gallery. I know this couple personally, from some 12 years ago, and got the story from both of them, separately. They went through a S about 4 years ago, just as another couple in this group of friends had D. Their S was a shock to everyone. Their couple is just like mine: he's from my country and she's from another continent. They had two young kids. Really similar.
What had happened is that she went to a conference abroad and met this guy. I don't know the details, but she shared very personal experiences with him over a drink and the lad said the exact right thing at the exact right time. She felt a connection that she never felt in her M. She came back home and told about it to her H. He didn't even recall the life-changing experience in question. Something snapped in her: my H doesn't get me and there are other men out there who do. She asked for a break.
He moved out and they shared custody of the kids. He was crushed, much like us, but he didn't DB, just went "natural". He thought it was over and she'd reassure him it was just a break. He was showing her his pain. They'd be in very regular contact, seeing each other several times a week. They talked a lot. Some days, she wanted him back, some days not. She went to another conference or two where she met OM again. I think she realized he was not a realistic option (he's from yet another country).
Back home, she started doing more family activities with her H and kids. After about six months, they started acting as a family more, but they were not reconciled. They spent the Holidays together but it wasn't clear that they were back together even then. It took another six months before they gradually decided to piece and moved back together. Since then, they have moved to her continent and they continue piecing. They both say it's hard. It's been two years, I think.
A crucial part of her decision was when she realized that were she to find a new partner, she'd be looking for someone exactly like her H. There was also a factor of keeping the family together and full time access to her kids.
There was no D and there was no DBing in it, but I thought it would be uplifting for some to read a success story. I know people around me all seem to have several such stories. I'm especially interested in the mechanisms and reasons behind the reconciliations.
Mozza, I just want to add that of course I am no magician and I can't see the future but I do think there is a good chance of reconciliation between you and your W. I get why this announcement of D would upset you of course! But honestly I am not at all surprised.
There were a few old success stories I was reading last month thanks to your compilation. They helped me a lot!!! thank you!
In several of the ones I was reading, the WAS asked for D and started moving the process forward (later on after BD and S). Somewhere in the process it was halted by the WAS. And when they reconciled it seemed that the reason the WAS filed or requested divorce at that time was because they were at the crossroads. They wanted to move on with their life but suddenly realized they were actually married. (even though in many cases they had already cheated and moved out) They wanted to cut that tie so that they would not feel guilty anymore about dating or doing whatever they wanted. Once the D process was begun and the LBS seemed to be going along with it, the WAS suddenly wanted to stop it.
Look, this clown your W is moving in with, he sounds like a flash in the pan. No way this is going to work out! He was your W's ticket to get out of the marriage and go have a fun new life that she believed will be perfect. Everyone knows living with a new person is not a bed of roses. You are lucky they are living together. His faults will have their chance to shine. Either he will be a slob or a neat freak. Maybe he will be cranky in the morning. Maybe he will forget to buy milk. Who knows what will happen, but they will quickly have something to fight about I'll bet.
What 25years wrote the other day was so powerful. When does the WAW start to doubt her decision... work on being the most amazing Mozza you can so that when she doubts she sees you as amazing.
Hugs Mozza!
Oops it looks like we are posting at the same time Mozza.
I have many friends in real life who have reconciled after separation. The stories are usually about the WAS being immature or having some kind of life crisis and needing to go find themselves. Feeling like the relationship wasn't right and they needed to go search for someone else. The LBS then trying to move on with their lives but often staying in some sort of contact as friends.
Something happens... the WAS splits up with OP, the LBS starts dating someone and is happy, the WAS grows up and realizes their mistake, or an external event pushes them together. Something shifts and the two start spending time together again and eventually work it out. It's not easy or perfect but they now both know they are in it together.
While my LBS friends didn't know about DB I don't think, they often put some of the ideas into practice. They didn't beg & plead, they developed confidence and moved on. Maybe they were friendly, maybe they avoided the WAS but they always kept the door of communication open. I don't think any of them went dark for long. More like a period of detaching and then talking once in a while. Some of them even stayed living in the same house but had separate lives. Ugh, difficult!
Hope this answers your question Mozza! I too am fascinated by the stories of reconciliation and how it all came about in the end.
Hugs, Lisa
Look, this clown your W is moving in with, he sounds like a flash in the pan. No way this is going to work out! He was your W's ticket to get out of the marriage and go have a fun new life that she believed will be perfect. Everyone knows living with a new person is not a bed of roses. You are lucky they are living together. His faults will have their chance to shine. Either he will be a slob or a neat freak. Maybe he will be cranky in the morning. Maybe he will forget to buy milk. Who knows what will happen, but they will quickly have something to fight about I'll bet.
Go Lisa, Go Lisa!
Let's see Mozza post on how he is going about being the best Mozza.
Good and interesting story Mozza. With a good ending. Felt like I read my own story, only to th point that OM is at her work and things went down from there. But the description of how she felt I think is very accurate for describing the early stage of an EA.
Sorry to hear about your developments. We have kind of a similar case. I feel like my wife thinks she can always return. She just knows, even if I show different action. And right now she probably would even feel better about her decision if she sees me happy.
Stay strong Mozza. It's so obvious how much you love her and what good of a person you are. Time will show her.
Copying that, from LITB, found on NAJ1964's thread. Seems relevant right now.
My divorce was signatures away from legally being over, and it got ugly. Somehow, with a lot of work and the grace of God, we worked things out.
There is so much in that "somehow"!
Wonka wrote
this to lnlyship:
I want to disabuse you of the notion that a reconciliation can happen in a month's time as you just lamented above in your post. I've been around the boards for a long time and the shortest reconciliation time was approximately 8 months. Even that is a rarity. Generally speaking, it typically occurs about 1 to 2 years of hoard core DBing. Mind you, it is not a guarantee.
I think I need to set 2015 free. I don't focus on a timeline anymore, but I keep thinking about what suggests she'll come back with the underlying assumptions that the signs should start to appear. I keep being disappointed and it makes DBing real hard because I can't be a "natural".
I'm going to spend the coming week thinking she's not coming back. Not really being pessimistic, just moved on. I want to experiment with that thought.
Probably the way to go.
This will be so hard. I'm afraid of that, but eventually I have to do the same.
Let me know how your plan is evolving. It's crucial to completely let go. There is such a fine line between giving up and hope. Letting go hope is almost impossible, humans are made like that. That's what keeps us alive, in our case it's killing us tho
Thanks for your kind words, Complex. I think it's more about detachment and no expectations than letting go and giving up. I'm not going to do anything that could mean the end of my M, but I'm not going to focus on it as much. This was going to be a crucial year in my business project and it turns out to be all about my failed M. I need to get back to those projects because they are part of what will make me a man only a fool would leave.
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I'm very grateful that the moderators let me go beyond the 100 posts limit while an important topic came up. I'm now moving to a new thread.
Mozza 8