Day #15 in the condo.
My first day on antidepressants. I have never taken them before. I used to be of the mind that one should tough out sadness. Exercise, eat right, that type of thing instead of medication. Another thing I was wrong about. In my M I never went for help with my depression. My periods of depression now come up often when my W cries about our M problems. So I'm getting help... medication and therapy to grow my inner happiness and self-love. A big 180 for me.
Doctor has me on Lexapro. Said it could take a couple days to a few weeks to kick in. Or could be today. The drug is supposed to dial back my emotions... anger, sadness, even my sex drive. Which would be great. Feeling horny is especially painful for me.
My head definitely feels different physically right now. Something is definitely happening.
I was emotional and shaky this morning after W sent me text and VM asking to pick up S11 and lunch to take him to a doctor appointment. She said she'll have him back by dinner. She asked if I wanted to come along on to the appointment which I won't. I simply replied... "Hello W. That's fine. Also, please give me at least 2 days notice about things like this. Thank you." I think that response was OK. Acting like she's a co-worker. She then texted back saying "Thank you so much HP," and asking about paying tuition and the movers.
After that, and talking with my long time doctor about my sitch... He asked and I told him everything... I let myself get in the very bad shaky place again. I've since taken the A/D not expecting any change. Now my head feels different... maybe a numbing? The tension behind my eyes is almost gone as are my shakes. It's not a smooth comfortable feeling which would have been nice. More like the near absence of the painful uncontrolled stuff in my head that gets replaced with nothing. Like a "not all there" feeling.
If this is what it's going to be... I'll get used to it. But yes my emotions seem dialed back. I don't feel sharp... but I don't feel horrible. I feel like I could be even in conversation with W. Like I could think and act accordingly instead of simply reacting angrily. I would have to decide to look and act contented though. Not a magic pill.
So this will help. I'm thankful.
So I'll keep going on my 6 month plan. I still think of filing a fault D almost everyday. No matter how W sees my part in our M problems... I don't deserve what she's doing now and I am prepared to act accordingly. I also saw in other sitches how the filing was the hitting bottom needed to get the W talking and moving to R. Just want to make sure my waiting 6 months does not affect any fault benefits.
Also, my W is still has access to living comfortably in our old home and still driving the rental I helped pay for. After next week, when the home goes away, is when her real separation journey begins. She says she'll be staying at her aunts. She won't be able to keep S11 until she gets an apartment and her own car. I may also have to call her on any lies she tells. So I have to give more real life consequences time to happen.
At this point, though, and with help from this drug and therapy, I believe I can get back to the place where I see my W as sad, lost, hurt, and confused. And I'm just calmly being better me showing strong in her vicinity while still focused on my own thing and happiness.
Yes.. I took an action I never have before and now I'm in an OK place.
Just keep doing that.
Just keep going.
Just a question... I've said before I've read sitches here where the LBS does spend time with the wayward WAS. Around kids mostly. Just a time to create a positive interaction. Painful to do... no expectations. Jan just did that successfully.
I have another opportunity to do this. W just came to pick up S11. I sent him down... did not see her.
She then texts... "Hey... any chance we can do lunch together for S11's birthday?"
So... my goal is to create a new, stronger more happier me while maybe creating a new M with my W. Each of us new better people in a new M as we did discuss in one of our R talks long ago.
Right now, I've gone pitch dark. Only responding to her S11 messages.
She has called me a mofo/avoider and I called her a F*cking B!tch as recently as a few days ago.
She would be happiest if I was just friendly nice guy/BFF accepting her A and her choices like good TV husbands do.
The easy answer, as I am pitch black dark, is to ignore this request. I can't be friends with her while she's behaving this way. I also let her feel the consequences of her actions.
But accepting her wishes and feelings is important too right? It seems not at this point. She knows exactly how I feel. She won't act like my W... she doesn't get me at all. We're not friends. She gave me his birthday and S11 knows that.
I get stuck here. After everything I've done... she keeps saying I'm not acting like and adult and I'm the avoider b/c I don't respond to her, don't see her, and don't accept her invitations to hang out together as a family. Though I know I'm doing what I'm supposed to do... that bothers me.
Hell.. why would she even ask this again? It is the same as before... for her guilt and so she can have happy family and her dreams. Making me the bad guy b/c I'm not tolerating her truth.
So I'll start answering these. I think Starsky has something better than "No thank you W."
Do I keep ignoring or denying these pokes from her, keep hitting her with truth darts, or do I just go and fake it. I want to stop pushing her away. I don't want to be at all like the hurt guy anymore.
I'm thinking... "No W... I already have plans for lunch with S11. Thanks." No truth dart. Just truth.
How's that?
HP,
I've been MIA due to being waylaid with illness and didn't want to make any comments for they probably would have been wonky.
Alrighty. Listen up, HP. You must realize that DBing isn't one size fits all when one takes the context into consideration. Let's take your example along with Jan's. The first question to ask yourself is: what are the differences between your sitch and Jan's.
You are a male LBH whose wife is in an active affair with OM
Jan is a female LBS whose wife is in active affair with OW
You may ask: shouldn't we apply the same principles when DBing regardless of who the players are?
The answer is no. Please allow me to explain further.
When it comes to a WAW in an active affair with the OM, she loses all respect for LBH who goes all wet noodle on her out of fear that he will lose her. Well, he's already lost her with all wet noodle behaviors such as sleeping in the same bed, acting as a babysitter while she goes off with OM, kissing/being affectionate, using marital funds to finance her affair, etc.
In this case, it is critically important for the LBH to assert his leadership by establishing boundaries of no OM and not acting like a gay boyfriend to his WAW. Going dark and using LRT after all other measures have been exhausted is the way to assert his leadership in the M. For a straight woman, this shows her who the boss is and she will clearly see what life will look like without the financial security of her husband. Straight women are generally wired like that.
Contrast this with Jan's sitch. One would think that she should go hard-line on her wayward wife who has OW. Not the case. I encourage Jan to accept about half invitations from her W to interact with her and the kids. Why is that? Here's why I do for gay women with kids.
Gay women, generally speaking, come together based on deep/intense emotional connections. They are not as driven by financial security as straight women are because gay women have learned to be financially independent themselves. In Jan's case, it is critically important for her to interact with her WAW and their kids together because it touches deeply in a gay woman that draws out their feminine and mothering instincts out. For the most part, gay women relationships are fairly egalitarian in sharing finances, household chores, etc.
This is why the DBIng approach is different between your sitch and Jan's. The interplay between gay women marriages and straight marriages are a bit different. I wouldn't say vastly different because we all have the same dreams and aspirations.
Bottom line, in every sitch it is vitally important to be polite and respectful in our interactions with the WAS without being a jerk. It can be done.
You will start to see some headway when you are a HAPPY, CONFIDENT, MATURE, EMOTIONALLY STABLE man..
I don't see any of those qualities in you at the moment.
I would bet your wife isn't seeing or feeling them either.
Those are the qualities that are attractive to women. This is what women tell us again and again and again.
I believe that your wife is seeing an unhappy, unconfident, immature, emotionally weak man...
If I am correct, then how can you expect her to be attracted back to you into a relationship?
She should be seeing that you seem happier without her, more confident than ever and an emotional rock that can handle anything life puts in front of him... "I can handle it.. Life is good."
HP,
I wanted to circle back and comment on some issues that have cropped up in your posts.
1) Your W is pushing your buttons with the avoider comments. Remember to stay calm and not be reactive. Just file away the info in your mind. I don't agree with all of your W's analysis. She's frustrated that she cannot reach you when you have s11. I think you did a good job with the reminder that you don't reach out when she has s11 and that you'd like for the same courtesy extended to you.
2) You CANNOT afford to ignore all of W's texts. Pick your battles wisely. If you would recall, W blows up when you don't respond at all with ugly spewing of swear words. You did an excellent job of not responding to them. She knows how badly she behaved. It is all on her. However, you can respond politely without being a jerk.
3) Regarding s11's refusal to respond to his mother's texts, it is important to stay out of their relationship. It is for him and W to figure out together. No kid wants to feel "forced" to communicate with a parent that essentially abandoned them. Hell, he has every perfect right to be angry at his Mom. Stay the hell out of their relationship. It is for your W to experience for herself the consequences of her choices....and this is one of them.
Thank you Wonka. I see what you are saying. Although I do want to have good interactions with W... how things are now is very different than how they were before when I wet noodled and didn't know better.
And thank you for explaining the difference between Jan's sitch and mine. I was so excited for her I wanted the same. I also saw, in Jan's case, her W told her some positive things like "I miss us." I like that and know I am far far from there.
Clearly, then, the polite and respectful thing to do is to continue to respond to her S11 texts and VM. Not immediately, but promptly. I ignore all other communications and invitations like this one. (But is ignoring any of her texts polite?) I stay my course to recover from her abuse, learn to be single and happy, and to get my mojo back.
One thing about our hand offs... I'm I doing right by not going to she her? She's right that in our M like many men I avoided and dismissed what I felt were her more difficult emotions. Even though she may have said this in anger to hurt and manipulate to get control, I'm sure she really feels that way. Isn't, then, LRT more of the same from me?
I know LRT is all there is to do and I have months of it to go. But I do see she is looking at my behavior. And S11 told her I went to the doctor today. I never made doctor appointments before and she will wonder why I went. So, while I'm still getting stronger, I just want to make sure I'm not making anything worse in our few interactions.
Thank you again.
Hello again Wonka... I see you answered my questions as I typed my last post. Thank you again so much. I'll get better at the handoffs I'm sure as I go through the therapy. The goal there is detachment so a part of that will be letting go of my anger. I can't get there soon enough.
Just really trying to focus on me again. Trying to work but I still make it difficult. I have to do better there.
The initial effect of the Lexapro has worn off so now I'm a little shaky and tense again. So I see this will take days maybe weeks to really start working which is what it is. Just another battle to win.
This is challenging... not doing anything directly to change or fix the biggest pain in your life. There's no fixing it... just dealing with it.
My son will be back soon from a few hours with his mom. Time to take care of him and show him strength.
Keep going.
Everyone,
Saw a great post by Linda from Andy's thread so am re-posting it here.
I'm hoping the new year will be a better one for you Andy. I am on MWD's mailing list, and just read an email she sent out entitled "10 New Year's Resolutions for Your Marriage." They really are great, I am going to copy and paste them here in the hope that they will be of some comfort and help to you.
1. Envision a positive outcome
There is no way that you can begin to accomplish positive change your marriage if you don't believe it is possible. Start by imagining what your life will be like when your marriage truly turns a corner. The more you can picture every detail, the easier it will be to eventually step into this picture at some later date.
2. Act as if you expect miracles to occur
Once you can imagine positive outcomes, reflect on how you will be behaving differently when they happen. Then start doing that right now!
3. Be kind, even if you think your spouse doesn't deserve it
You may be angry, disappointed, or even devastated by your spouse's choices and actions. However, rather than react to unsettling behavior, assume your spouse is lost and confused. Be patient, kind and steady and your efforts will pay off.
4. Focus on small, positive changes
Don't expect big changes overnight or you will be disappointed and it will make it hard to stay on track. Imagine the smallest change possible that would signal a shift in how things have been going. Then focus on that.
5. Promise yourself this will be a great year, no matter what
You can not control what your spouse does, but you can control what you decide to do with yourself and your children , if you have them. Take a deep breath and envision how you are going to make this a good year regardless of your spouse's choices.
6. Exercise your worry away
The most popular New Year's Resolution is to join a health club and exercise to become more fit. That is well and good. For you, exercise will be a lifesaver. It will help to assuage worries, feel good about yourself and increase feel-good hormones like endorphins. Go for it!
7. Do one new thing you enjoy
Don't become stale just because you are having a shaky time in your marriage. Novelty will stimulate your brain and maybe even your heart and help you have a more positive outlook about the future.
8. Make sure you have quality time with your children or other loved ones. Be present.
Many times, when people are teetering on the brink of divorce, their pain makes them become self-absorbed and staying the moment becomes and challenging task. You will never be able to do your children's childhood again, so do your best to be with them mentally when you're with them.
9. If you get off track, get back on quickly without self-blame
What separates the winners from the losers is not whether or how many times you get off track, it's how rapidly you get back on track. If you've veered from the Divorce Busting plan, hop right back on track without self-recrimination.
10. Do activities that help you rediscover serenity
Meditate, pray, hike in the mountains or watch a sky full of shooting stars. On a regular basis, do whatever it takes to bring you back to yourself. You and everyone around will benefit from your peacefulness.
I love how MDW sees things which is in line with my general spiritual beliefs. She's a smart cookie!
Thank you so much Wonka for reposting RosaLinda's great post here. This is exactly what I've needed. Like item #1... sometimes I envision what it would be like to be in MC with W. What we would say... how we could heal. It makes me smile to do that.
On #3... being kind. My W again called and texted about having lunch together on S11's birthday tomorrow. She made mention of and sounded tired of me not responding to her contacts on her VM. Said it would be fantastic if we can have lunch. She won't have a car tomorrow so she suggests I could drive with S11 and meet her downtown. Talked with S11 and he said he feels sad but understands why I would not want to have lunch with his mom.
Also, W did talk with S11 about what is going on today. Told him she spends time in the old house at night feeling guilty and crying. S11 says he now trusts his mom more after their talk.
So I can text her kindly... "Hello W. Please go ahead and have lunch without me. S11 would love to see you. I can drop him off at your office at 12:30. How does that sound?"
And leave it at that.
Am I wrong? Would the kind thing be to give her this and play happy family?
Answer is no. I've gone pitch black dark. This is challenging. Part of me wants to go but it would be terrible. Boundary test right? She's done that so many times.
HP,
I think it is encouraging to hear that s11 and his Mom are having some convos. Continue to stay out of their R. You and s11 have a R too. Just remember not to put a burden on him that he feels he must save the M or make you and his Mom feel better.
So I can text her kindly... "Hello W. Please go ahead and have lunch without me. S11 would love to see you. I can drop him off at your office at 12:30. How does that sound?"
And leave it at that.
Am I wrong? Would the kind thing be to give her this and play happy family?
Answer is no. I've gone pitch black dark. This is challenging. Part of me wants to go but it would be terrible. Boundary test right? She's done that so many times.
Yes, your W is testing you in several ways which is why it's important for you to stick with LRT. Your response ^^^ sounds good for it is polite and respectful. I'd send it if I were you.
Thank you Wonka. I'm glad I finally came up with a good response on my own! Maybe I'm learning. I will send it.
It's not encouraging though that I'm doing this already so soon into this LRT. Is this how it works? She sounded really tired on the VM. I imagine she is worn out and not happy having to deal with me. I know it's not my job to make her happy right now... but I'm pissing her off so much.
Even so, she has backed down a lot in the past few weeks and is more respectful when I'm not making her scream. She's asking me for things while I've only contacted her once when the car wouldn't start. I am getting space enough to get myself together and make good decisions for my life. I'm on the right track then?
I'm going the read the LRT chapter again in DR to find encouragement b/c as far as R is concerned I'm not feeling encouraged. I can go on doing this for 6 months and I see it gets easier to do every week... just not seeing how my W won't hate me more.
Then again, she was screaming at me a few days ago, but still wants to have lunch as a family even though she has no intension of R. These tests are just to make all this sit better with her right?
Anyway, I'm glad W told S11 something about feeling guilty. I hope she was being truthful and not just trying to make him feel good.
And yes, unfortunately S11 has it in his head that he can talk to his mom to fix things. Even said, if he got a broken leg, maybe we could all be back together. He said it jokingly but still. I don't know where he got that from and I talked with him about it... that this is up to mom and dad and not his burden. I'll keep talking to him about that.
I'm tired but so what?
Just keep going.
Consistency, HP, consistency.
It is more than vital...
You will start to see some headway when you are a HAPPY, CONFIDENT, MATURE, EMOTIONALLY STABLE man..
I don't see any of those qualities in you at the moment.
I would bet your wife isn't seeing or feeling them either.
Those are the qualities that are attractive to women. This is what women tell us again and again and again.
I believe that your wife is seeing an unhappy, unconfident, immature, emotionally weak man...
If I am correct, then how can you expect her to be attracted back to you into a relationship?
She should be seeing that you seem happier without her, more confident than ever and an emotional rock that can handle anything life puts in front of him... "I can handle it.. Life is good."
Thank you Justin for the hard words. I can see how I am being unhappy, unconfident, immature, and emotionally weak. Like 25 said... I feel like I'm hiding here now that I'm not in W's face everyday. I want to change this immediately and still I've let 2 weeks go by here without changing. I'm off many of the disciplines I had when I was in the house with her. Too much resting and wallowing and letting things slide like this was a regular holiday season.
To be happy, confident, mature, and emotionally strong then I have to decide and then do it all day everyday. I can do that.
I'll find a way to do that and do LRT and just be a stronger me.
So I have to GAL, answer her texts promptly, and get out of this condo. I have to do this you're right.
Thank you for your reminder about consistency TSquared2. I hope I'm being consistent in a good way. Honestly, though, I'm not sure I'm being consistent in the right way with my W.
Justin is right in that I get emotionally weak so I second guess what I'm doing. I'm really not sure I'm doing the right thing day to day.
If I am dealing with this confidently, what am I doing differently than I'm doing now?
As I've said, I'm seriously afraid I'm hiding from her by doing what I'm doing... not dealing with our problems... not responding to her... not seeing her. Somehow again I'm not leading.
So yes I'm looking to turn this around again. I did it confronting her on her A... standing up to her spewing... getting to the condo...
Ah... now it has to be my turnaround. Like Justin said... I have to be happier without her.
I was just thinking that when I was hanging with S11 watching his anime shows. We are having a happier night without her hovering and stressing us out.
Now I have to make it more real for me. Make some wins for me.
OK got it.
Thanks for that post Wonka!
The initial effect of the Lexapro has worn off so now I'm a little shaky and tense again. So I see this will take days maybe weeks to really start working which is what it is. Just another battle to win.
HP,
I'm going to break one of my 180s right now, two actually (STFU and trying to fix things). I just wanted to give you a friendly warning, per say, about AD's. Make sure you've read the side effects carefully, and that another adult, that you trust, knows that you are taking the meds. The drugs can take awhile to kick in. And usually take about a month to fully get in your system.
I started taking AD's around the first of November. That first weekend on them, quite frankly scared the [censored] out of me, with what went on with my body. I basically nosedived into a depression, had very scary thoughts, combined with severe nausea and dizziness. My mother, who has taken the same AD, warned me that it might happen, as she had the same reaction. The depression and scary thoughts went away after about three days. The dizziness, nausea and fatigue went away after a month.
The reason I say this, the drugs can really help, or they can really hurt. My H spent the better part of November sleeping and barely functioning because he was on a med that wasn't working for him. My dad (who is mentally ill) has had similar problems. With S11 in your care, I just wanted to make sure you had a safety net in place in case the ADs didn't work. Make sure to keep in close contact with your doctor about anything. And, not to nag, but drinking and ADs aren't a good combination.
I commend you for your journey. And for taking a step outside of your comfort zone. I just wanted to put it out there for you. I will now go back to minding my own business and practicing my 180's.
Additionally, can't wait to hear about your own adult GAL activities. :-)
HP. I hope we can help you get through this.
Keep us updated.
Hello Calibri. Thank you so much for your post on ADs. I very much appreciate that your broke your 180's to tell me about your experience. I've never taken them before too... and I now see how dangerous it can be to really depend on them.
I did not want to use them at all... but I'm in a place now where I'm finding it difficult to turn myself around sometimes. Like Starsky suggested... my goal is to use these temporarily. If, at the end of the month when I visit my doctor again, I'm better then he'll have me stop. I've known my doctor for 20 years and he's very good... taking good care of me.
I hope for the best for you and your's Calibri.
...
Being better more emotionally stable me this morning. Just deciding to do it and acting like it as the TED videos say.
First thing this morning... text from W. She wants to get another rental car and asks for another $300. She said yesterday that she would not be able to get a rental until tomorrow so she wanted me to drive S11 to her office to meet her for lunch. Now she changed and asks me to drive him to our old house.
Two things... she said $150 of the last $300 was to put the rental car "on hold" as she wasn't using a credit card. She should get that $150 back.
Also, instead of $300 she asked for, she took $400 from our joint account last time.
So I responded soon after... "Hello W. I'll transfer $150 to the joint account. You mentioned $150 was for a hold on the last rental so I believe you get that back? Also you transferred an extra $100 from the account with the last $300?"
Tried being nicer by asking questions. Maybe they should have just been statements.
Then I immediately transferred the money. I texted her to let her know and said I would be by the house with S11 at lunch.
Then thought about it and texted her... "Hello W. Since you will have a car today, can you come pick S11 up for lunch? I'm working today. Thanks."
Just now, I heard her call S11 to say good morning. She has yet to reply to me.
Again I hated to do this. I don't want to control her by asking her for the rental receipts b/c I don't trust her. But she continues to do things to destroy trust like taking an extra $100 last time and the $1000 from a few weeks ago from our account.
Part of her problem with me is that I don't work with her... it's always my way and my feelings she says. I feel like I'm making this worse by my handling this morning but I don't know what else to do from here.
Anyway, she responds after a bit that she will come pick him up but an hour earlier. She now wants to keep him until 4 if that's ok with me. She'll also put $100 back into the account tomorrow.
I don't know how we come back from this. If she keeps feeling to has to lie, scream at me, and take my money and I keep having to call her on those things... how do we ever get back to friends?
So I just keep going.
Being better more emotionally stable me this morning. Just deciding to do it and acting like it
Good. That's one of the qualities. Keep working on this.
Tried being nicer by asking questions. Maybe they should have just been statements. (second guessing)
Then I immediately transferred the money. I texted her to let her know and said I would be by the house with S11 at lunch.
Then thought about it and texted her (second guessing)... "Hello W. Since you will have a car today, can you come pick S11 up for lunch? I'm working today. Thanks."
Next step is the "CONFIDENCE" part of attraction.
You seem to always second guess yourself. i.e.(
maybe I should have... Then I thought about it, etc. etc.)
Remember...Confident, happy, emotionally stable......
Those are the traits that women say they are attracted to.
Make your decisions... think wisely... confidently act on them.. be happy. show emotional strength.....
A man can be confident without appeasing his wife.
A man can say no without being mean or vindictive...
Firm, confident, stable.. Happy just the way things are...
Make your decisions and try to stop second guessing everything.. I CAN DO THIS... I WILL DO THIS...
HP,
We have advised you to take measures to protect yourself financially. I'm wondering if you've communicated to W that she has until the end of January to find her own transportation? She cannot depend on you for rental money indefinitely.
As a separated woman, she needs to grow up and face things without running to you every time to rescue her from whatever pickle she finds herself in. This isn't meant to be mean, but pull way back.
She will scream that you're being inflexible etc....but stand your ground. She wants an easy life with access to your money so she can use it for dinners with the OM or use it to buy presents for him. That's what people in affairs do.
Now, we'd like to see posts from you that are more oriented to GAL activities. Can you do this?
Who are your male role models, real life, fiction, movies, etc?
HP,
Don't worry about how you come back from this. My H was pretty terrible, well really terrible during our S. I thought to myself there was no way in heIl we would ever be able to Fix our M bc he did not keep the road home very smooth. However - where there's a will there's a way. If your W wants it bad enough she will do what she needs to do IF she decides that's what SHE wants. Do not let fear drive you, don't let it consume you. Do what is best for you and your S. You have to protect yourself and your S, she sure is not concerned about that right now. At the end of the day she will respect you more. Be firm in your boundaries of what's legally the best decision for you. She may be angry but Oh well! The WAS is always angry at the LBS for something anyway!
HP,
I've read most if not all of your sitch and I'm wondering (and to others as well) did your W ever fight you on leaving with S11?
Oh, HP...I find such strength and positivity in reading your sitch. I wish I had the nerves of steel that you seem to exhibit. I know you had a rough patch recently, but it really seemed to me that your W was pushing your buttons and you reacted. I strive to get to that detachment that shines through in your posts. Thanks for being an inspiration to me.
HP
My H is the most confident ass on the planet. Cock sure, inconsiderate, rude, aggressive and completely unattractive. But he is so confident that his abuse is teaching me!
From Vanilla, I prefer this new gentle HP over the earlier model. The fantastic dad working his stuff with integrity, the man who thinks, reasons, feels his emotions.
Take your time, it's new territority and HP is on the right road.
Vanilla
HP,
I've read most if not all of your sitch and I'm wondering (and to others as well) did your W ever fight you on leaving with S11?
Hello MVG. Yes, after I told my wife she could not move with me and S11 to the condo, and that she was never welcome in the condo not even to visit, she completely freaked out and fought me hard with manipulation. Screamed, cried, accused me of taking her boy, threatened to take him instead, threatened to not let him go, threatened lawyers, threatened police, threatened court, etc. I just looked at her and said OK sure to every threat. She backed down confused every time.
This went on for a couple nights. Then she gave in but started to guilt me on ruining the holidays, disrupting S11 school year, ruing S11 birthday party, etc. I just looked at her and said basically... "This is what you wanted... separation. I'm not playing happy family." Blamed me for everything. Cursed me. Called me a coward. Screaming. Crying. Begging. Telling me she would do whatever I wanted. Everything.
Then that stopped and she has mostly pulled herself together. She now tries to control the schedule and guilt me about money and my not answering my phone.
So, in my sitch was we were all already moving to a place I control... the condo. So I just excluded her, took my money, messed with her plan, and made sure I stayed calm and was in the right and looking to protect my son. Also, she knows that she acted horribly and has an IC that seems to have told her the same. Finally some mind reading... she has said over the years that I am better with S11 and I am. She has said even recently that she feels she is not a good mother. And she seems to know she's going through a bad time emotionally as she started IC on her own. And she drinks. And she's in an A.
I'm still surprised and disappointed in my W that I was able to do it. I can't imagine she's missed so many days with her son.
I hope this helps you. You just have to be the calm and firm, don't react, make sure your intension is to help your kids and yourself, and make sure your W understands that you know she loves her kids and you want to protect your kids love for their mom.
Agree with Vanilla.
Still worried about you and alcohol. Do you have support for that yet?
Don't you all live in a major city? Would a Zip car be less expensive than all these rentals?
Sorry things are stinky.
Oh, and how do you come back from this? Tons of time and generosity on both sides. Also your W remembering nobody owes her nothin'. But it can happen. Just not anytime soon.
Who are your male role models, real life, fiction, movies, etc?
Thanks TSquared2. Funny, I used to joke with my W about how I admire Jack Reacher from the books b/c he walks alone, tkes no crap, and needs no one.
I also admire the Rock... at least his story, his outgoing persona, and determination to succeed and help others do same.
James Bond (Connery and new guy a little).
I like Crocket and Tubbs in the Miami Vice movie.
That kind of thing. Thank you for asking
Agree with Vanilla.
Still worried about you and alcohol. Do you have support for that yet?
Don't you all live in a major city? Would a Zip car be less expensive than all these rentals?
Sorry things are stinky.
Oh, and how do you come back from this? Tons of time and generosity on both sides. Also your W remembering nobody owes her nothin'. But it can happen. Just not anytime soon.
Hello Maybell! Thank you so much for checking up on me. I have an appointment with my IC next week and will bring up and work through my drinking to dull pain. I plan to go each week after... twice a week if possible.
I did start drinking immediately when I got to the condo yes... did stop for a few days... then had a bottle over the weekend. I'm now on the AD and they have not kicked in fully yet. I know to not mix the AD with the alcohol and I will watch that.
My W did not seem to want to get a zip car whenever she needed one. The rental would work out less for keeping it everyday of the week. I have a plan she won't like at all to buy her out of our car so she'll have to deal with her own transportation in a bit. Let you know more tomorrow when it goes down.
And yes time. I know it will take at least 6 months, July 1, to see anything remotely positive here. Likely way over a year before any R if at all possible could start. I ask you to check me if you catch me being less than generous.
I'll keep an eye on you, but you've been in great hands so far.
Six months is gone quicker than you expect. Count on it taking longer. I know that's not what you want to hear, but trust me, when four months have passed and you're getting antsy because there's no end in sight, it will suddenly make everything a lot harder. You'll feel like BD all over again. Settle in for the long haul now; better to hope for too little than too much.
Poirot, I really tip my hat to you. The strength you've shown has been impressive. What you did, so quickly when you were probably still reeling in shock, took a serious spine. Take some pride in that. And share that strength with your S. Eleven is such a deceptive age -- they understand too much and too little at the same time. Give him a hug from me. He sounds like he needs one too.
I agree with Wonka on the text back--go ahead and send, if you have not done so already
HP- first thank you for checking in on my sitch today, really needed the pick me up tonight.
So I just excluded her, took my money, messed with her plan, and made sure I stayed calm and was in the right and looking to protect my son.
I'm still surprised and disappointed in my W that I was able to do it. I can't imagine she's missed so many days with her son.
I hope this helps you. You just have to be the calm and firm, don't react, make sure your intension is to help your kids and yourself, and make sure your W understands that you know she loves her kids and you want to protect your kids love for their mom.
Not too much to say to you tonight except say again that ^^^^ took some huge balls to do, I'm talking buffalo balls (can I say that on this forum?) Took so much strength for you to actually move out and convey to your W that you will not tolerate her on going A. Really happy that you were able to do this. Im sure it is best for S11 as you both have a place to call just your own for now.
HP,
Thanks for replying. Your wife sounds like Mother Theresa compared to the woman I've been living with for the last month. There is zero room for rational thought, and honestly, that's been the case for quite a while.
Did you have a legal parenting plan in place at any point? I'm hoping that once that's in place and we get out of our house and into separate places, (either post D or during the process) that this will be easier.
Your strength is inspirational, keep going.
Hello mvg. Sorry to hear about your W. Hope you get free soon.
No legal parenting plan for us. We just started this 2.5 weeks ago. My W keeps threatening a mediator when she feels she's losing control. Just be agreeable and clear in your communications. I agree to let her see S11 as much as she wants though I keep him more nights so far. Despite our screaming, she is respectful in most communications. It took a while of firm boundaries to get there. I only respond to my Ws texts or VM. I usually don't answer her calls. When I do I get in trouble with anger.
Good luck.
Confident, happy, emotionally mature... Going somewhere in life..
Those are qualities that WILL attract women....
I usually don't answer her calls. When I do I get in trouble with anger.
Emotionally mature men can and do answer calls if they prefer to. They are in control of their emotions and anger. Confident and happy. Calls are short, to the point and polite.
Not mean or vindictive...
Not answering her calls for the reasons you give are not helping you or your situation. She can see right through it.
Busy men going somewhere in life that are happy in life don't answer calls because they are extremely busy and don't always have time to answer and talk due to all of their other interests and passions in life. They DO however return calls because it is a mature thing to do.... Big difference in how the woman perceives him versus a man who doesn't answer due to not being able to control his anger...
Just sayin....
Journaling...
Getting more used to this now. Woke up thinking "This is what's best for me. Life is good." Used stop thoughts to control my thinking. Slept late. Happy New Year.
Yesterday I texted my W the moving plan to get the furniture out of our old rental house where she is staying. I will come Friday to finish packing. She won't be there. Movers come Sunday to take everything to storage. She will pay her part of everything. Very business like.
After a long while, she replies back that she is stressed with packing and money and cannot help pay for with the move. She needs to buy a car and get an apartment. She asks if I can please pay for the entire move. She also says we need to talk about the car. Suggests I can buy her out of our car as it is paid for. She also asks if I can please pay S11's 2 months outstanding tuition for the month. She finally asks if she can expect some of the security deposit from the old rental to help her get a new place. Made mention that.... "Your expenses are very little since you're in the condo, right?" Repeats that she is stressed.
I go to sleep.
This morning, I reply... "W, understand you're stressed and I'm sure you want to be fair. Here's what we can do..." I tell her the trade in value for our car, repairs needed, amount I've spent on my own, and offer her $400 (generous). I tell her we can apply the $400 to her portion of the move and storage. She can continue to pay her part for storage going forward. I tell her I paid 1 month tuition payment as agreed, reminded her to use her end of year bonus to pay the outstanding 2 months as agreed, and that she would pay her portion of the monthly tuition going forward as agreed. Also said her portion of the security deposit, less than half, is of course hers. I ask, "How does that sound to you?"
As I'm about to send the text, calls me. I let it go to VM.
She then calls S11. S11 says mom wants to talk.
I take the phone and say... "Hey W. Listen... I've just sent you a ext answering your questions. Please don't call me on S11's phone. I'm sure you agree it's not fair to S11?"
She agrees.
"OK... Then send me a text or a VM when you want to reach me and I will get back to you when I can. OK? Thanks W." Hang up.
I did speak a little fast from irritation. Getting better at that.
She text replies later... "That is fair."
She then wanted to know when she could pick up S11... Does 10am work? I had said 4pm before. I said I wanted to do something with S11 after work. 3pm then? She said, it's her day and she would like him at 10am. I said he'll be ready at 10.
I also then texted her to please put the car insurance in my name and I will take her off the plan. No answer on that yet.
S11 didn't like leaving at 10am at all. I said... "I know son. Talk about that with your mom" and sent him down the elevator.
So getting better at answering. Only felt a little emotional. Did not give her a break on money. When S11 gets back, I'll get her car keys. No big deal.
I've read it's not good talk on the phone in LRT/Consequences stage as I proved with the terrible screaming R talk last time. She knows I'm just ignoring her calls, though, which I don't feel is very strong action from me long term. This is maybe the 6th time I've told her just leave me a VM or text but she keeps poking b/c I don't respond fast enough for her. She'll get used to it.
Will start real GAL next week then. Crossfit and Tango lessons.
Onward.
Nicely done HP. You did well with your interaction with your W. Looks like you have this down.
HP,
Crossfit and Tango sound really cool! Lat week, I watched the Crossfit World Championship competition on ESPN.....absorbing to watch. Extremely fit and athletic people.
I've read it's not good talk on the phone in LRT/Consequences stage as I proved with the terrible screaming R talk last time. She knows I'm just ignoring her calls, though, which I don't feel is very strong action from me long term. This is maybe the 6th time I've told her just leave me a VM or text but she keeps poking b/c I don't respond fast enough for her. She'll get used to it.
It is okay to talk on the phone while in LRT on logistics as LONG as you are able to keep your emotions in check. I agree that it is important to push back on W using s11's phone to reach you. It's not right to put a kid in the middle of this. There will come a time when you'll be able to talk with W on the phone without losing your self-control and end the call early.
Just wondering why you cannot switch the car insurance under your name yourself? Is this something you can do with a phone call to the ins. folks?
She knows I'm just ignoring her calls, though, which I don't feel is very strong action from me long term.
Are you ignoring her calls, or just putting her communications in the proper priority in your life right now?
Small, but important difference.
The main thing is to be prompt with anything related to S11, otherwise the rest can wait usually, imo.
Just a question... I've said before I've read sitches here where the LBS does spend time with the wayward WAS. Around kids mostly. Just a time to create a positive interaction. Painful to do... no expectations. Jan just did that successfully.
I have another opportunity to do this. W just came to pick up S11. I sent him down... did not see her.
She then texts... "Hey... any chance we can do lunch together for S11's birthday?"
So... my goal is to create a new, stronger more happier me while maybe creating a new M with my W. Each of us new better people in a new M as we did discuss in one of our R talks long ago.
Okay I get this^^ totally. What I don't get is the pitch darkness UNLESS it's a temporary thing you are doing bc you cannot yet detach well enough. If that is it, then I can buy into that and hope that you won't take too terribly long to get on your feet emotionally. B/c you cannot do the above^^^ by ignoring her texts and avoiding her. (I mean, you ARE avoiding her so, She has a point).
Right now, I've gone pitch dark. Only responding to her S11 messages.
She has called me a mofo/avoider and I called her a F*cking B!tch as recently as a few days ago.
She would be happiest if I was just friendly nice guy/BFF accepting her A and her choices like good TV husbands do.
WELL, What do you see as your alternative? You think the only options are avoiding her completely, or "accepting her A"....there are other alternatives.
I mean, it's one thing to need time to heal and let the dust settle but your anger is not helping your path to growth, or is it?
The easy answer, as I am pitch black dark, is to ignore this request. I can't be friends with her while she's behaving this way. I also let her feel the consequences of her actions.
She'll feel the consequences a lot more if you are an upbeat, great catch, around her.
B/c she is making choices that mean you, the great dad/h that you are, are NOT available to her. But being a guy she sees as petty and small, still avoiding conflict b/c he's not quite up to it, OR b/c he's trying to punish her, isn't going to attract her back either.
See, the line between self respect/preservation AND false pride b/c of a wounded ego, can be a shifting blurry line but it's there and you have to find it.
Don't let anger or any emotions steer your course. Act in accordance with your goal stated above, NOT how you feel at the moment.
Make sense?
But accepting her wishes and feelings is important too right? It seems not at this point. She knows exactly how I feel. She won't act like my W... she doesn't get me at all. We're not friends. She gave me his birthday and S11 knows that.
How do you think you sound here^^? Anything punitive sounding? Or small, or what? How do you think SHE sees you when you act this way? No, it's NOT the determinative factor in your choices but it should be A factor b/c if your goal is a recon, then her perceptions matter.
Heal yourself first. I get that. I totally do. But don't get stuck in victimhood, which is easy to do and it requires you staying the course of your own growth.
All too often a LBS comes here to work on themselves as they are finally seeing their flaws as spouses in a new, humbling light. It's hard to work on themselves but they believe in the "Cause" and know they will benefit from the work.
THEN they learn of an A and suddenly, they don't need to work on themselves, but it's all about the affair and the OP.
Say goodbye self improvement, and hello self righteousness.
Try very hard to avoid this^^.
I get stuck here. After everything I've done... she keeps saying I'm not acting like and adult and I'm the avoider b/c I don't respond to her, don't see her, and don't accept her invitations to hang out together as a family. Though I know I'm doing what I'm supposed to do... that bothers me.
---b/c she has a point, don't you think?
You STATE that your own goal is to have pleasant enough interactions and to build on those, with time.
That is a smart short term goal (i.e. to have a conflict free experience with your son and wife, like say, a LUNCH and no fighting during that one hour event.)
Then you build on those, so that they are either more frequent and or last longer.
The more she sees that you can be peaceful and harmonious, that there is a NEW IMPROVED YOU, the more you give her to miss when she's not with you and son.
But you are in fact avoiding ALL contact w/her unless it has to do with s11 and even that, you are barely responding to.
See, She doesn't know this is a temporary aid you are using to get stabilized and healthy enough to be around her without screaming or crying.
You have to tell her something along the lines of "Right now I need to reduce contact with you, so I can move forward" and leave it at that.
But please, Stop fearing that your being kind and civil to her, somehow means she's taking advantage of you. It's the most common mistake I see around here. And it's not smart OR effective. IT does not work. Why? BECAUSE
Being a jerk to her - only confirms her choice to leave you, and choose OM.
Being miserable to or around her, does NOT "prove" how much you loved her or how badly she has hurt you. It just makes it a lot easier to NOT be around you.
There will be times you will have to Suck it up and be calm around her, AND stop all the punishing games. Avoid her as long as you must, but don't be petulant about it.
This is a self preservation tactic only. Anything else "achieved" by you not ever responding to her, is probably not helping your cause, in my opinion.
Hell.. why would she even ask this again? It is the same as before... for her guilt and so she can have happy family and her dreams. Making me the bad guy b/c I'm not tolerating her truth.
Well, aside from more massive mind reading on your end,^^^ ALL of which is negative, btw, (SIGH)
I think she is reaching out to do damage control for your son, which is not "because she wants to feel less guilty" ---so much as b/c she loves her son, too. Why wouldn't she want things to be easier for him??
ALSO, just b/c she doesn't want the WAR to escalate or continue, that is not about assuaging her guilt. Do You think she feels ' GUILT' b/c you won't engage w/her?
I don't think she feels any "guilt" whatsoever, when you avoid her.
I think she sees you as weak, punitive, and small. I think she feels more correct in her present choice to leave the m and seek out OMs.
(Please don't be offended by that ^^comment, b/c I am saying what I think SHE sees your behavior as reflecting.
I know it's a self preservation mode, or at least I hope that's all it is. B/c as a long term approach - it will NOT lead to a reconciliation)
FWIW, I don't share much of starsky's approach here, and we part ways on this issue. I follow the div busting approach as much as I can. But we all share in the core belief that you should do what works.
So I'll start answering these. I think Starsky has something better than "No thank you W."
Do I keep ignoring or denying these pokes from her, keep hitting her with truth darts, or do I just go and fake it. I want to stop pushing her away. I don't want to be at all like the hurt guy anymore.
I'm thinking... "No W... I already have plans for lunch with S11. Thanks." No truth dart. Just truth.
How's that?
Your view is so biased here that it's hard to assess her behavior objectively. But for instance, I don't see her reaching out as a "poke"...
I think As a temporary measure, the avoidance is what you seem to need. It IS avoidance, ftr. But Do what you need to do for now.
I personally dislike the term "truth dart" b/c the emphasis usually ends up being on the "dart" part and is a thinly veiled insult that is used by bitter LBSers, b/c the truth itself is sufficient in my opinion.
To quote my DB coach on this--
"Life will show them the consequences of their choices. It's Not a spouse's job to do that, or to 'teach a lesson' to a spouse. Life will teach them the lessons."
So you don't have to take that "Duty" on anymore, okay?
But you're right that it won't make you look UNLike the hurt guy...so figure out how long it'll be before you can handle time with her.
THEN, Build on small things.
When she picks up your son, see it as a SHORT but real opportunity to show the new improved self confident YOU,
NOT the tortured soul in pain h that she left -- but a guy who has a life she'd want to share in...it's just 3 minutes of your life. Dress for it, wear some NEW different cologne and look slightly hurried but happy/excited, like you have places to go as soon as she's out of sight...
You can make an impression in that time, and happily see your son off with her (which is a lot better for him btw, than staying inside and sending him out alone).
Wave and say "have a good time!" and for all it's worth, act as if YOU KNOW YOU are going to have a good time doing your new mystery thing too. And then, make that true.
GAL and see each time apart from your son, as the opportunity you never had before, to explore new things you've wanted to explore.
Any new hobbies? Classes? Places or topics to explore? Groups, clubs or teams to join? Chances to coach or volunteer?
Can you make yourself join something THIS month? That would be great.
I don't know how to detach without GAL. So start with GAL for reals, and not a lot of it needs to involve your son.
Some of this has to be pushing you out into areas you are new to, to stretch and grow and meet new people who do not know your situation. Get your mind off things.
Heal...get your strength up, and take forward steps...
make sense?
Nicely done HP. You did well with your interaction with your W. Looks like you have this down.
Hello LITB. Thank you for support. I read your sitch the other night and learned a lot from your experience so any hard earned advice you can give me would be much appreciated. I admire your persistence and I hope things continue to go well for you.
Crossfit is an awesome GAL activity. Let's out a lot of pent up anger as well. :-D
Confident, happy, emotionally mature... Going somewhere in life..
Those are qualities that WILL attract women....
I usually don't answer her calls. When I do I get in trouble with anger.
Emotionally mature men can and do answer calls if they prefer to. They are in control of their emotions and anger. Confident and happy. Calls are short, to the point and polite.
Not mean or vindictive...
Not answering her calls for the reasons you give are not helping you or your situation. She can see right through it.
Busy men going somewhere in life that are happy in life don't answer calls because they are extremely busy and don't always have time to answer and talk due to all of their other interests and passions in life. They DO however return calls because it is a mature thing to do.... Big difference in how the woman perceives him versus a man who doesn't answer due to not being able to control his anger...
Just sayin....
Thank you again Justin for staying on me about my poor attitude and confidence. I just not getting that done.
Just now she called 20 minutes after a text and I did answer. She apologized for bothering me. Asked me if I wanted to keep a piece of furniture. I said yes. She talked more about another piece she was giving away. I said ok thank you and hung up. Was not terse. Was not happy though. Just business like.
I can do it. That's all.
Thank you again Justin for staying on me about my poor attitude and confidence. I just not getting that done.
This is why I asked about your male role models ^^^ ... use them to bolster yourself while you develop into your own man.
I switched between Clint Eastwoot, Mr. Spock, Kirk and Tony Stark, as needed ...
Hello 25. Thank you for checking back in with me.
Everything you say is true of course. I'm can see how she would see me as petulant and small as I'm not seeing her or responding to her contacts better. Although I know it is the right thing to do for my R goal... I have trouble accepting being friendly with her or in any way going out of my way for her. Sometimes I want to just leave her behind as much as possible. Right I'm not detached.
I was being friendly and firm and confident with her before in the house everyday... even after I confronted her on the PA and things got really bad. I the discipline to get my best self ready to face her and I had a constant pressure to keep me doing it everyday. Here in the condo on my own I'm not doing that.
Yes my plan here was to heal and rest and then start those interactions again. Almost 3 weeks here and I'm not feeling healed. I've been waiting and trying to heel instead of just being healed now. I've taken long enough break.
So yes... I want an R. I have to GAL, get better, and start facing her again soon. As you said... it's just a few minutes every now and then to take S11 down to her. Like before... I expect to be my best and then I am whether she's around or not.
If I'm moving on and have a life to look forward to then I'm happy, confident, emotionally mature no matter what. Again... just writing that made me feel much better. I have control of me and can feel that way anytime I really want to.
Just keep doing it.
Yes my plan here was to heal and rest and then start those interactions again. Almost 3 weeks here and I'm not feeling healed. I've been waiting and trying to heel instead of just being healed now. I've taken long enough break.
I thought you were going to start acting as one of your goals?
ACT the part with your wife. Pretend. Act as if... Fake it till you make it. Act confident. Act happy. Act emotionally strong. Try to stop following your feelings and learn to do what it takes by using discipline....
Please put the sitch away for tonight and doing something good and fun for yourself and S11...
Please put the sitch away for tonight and doing something good and fun for yourself and S11...
Thank you TSquared. I will put all this away soon. My S11 is with his mom tonight so it's just me. I think I'll watch a movie. No alcohol for the first NYE since who knows.
One thing I wanted to tell you while I'm here... I was just reaching your sitch. Thnk you so much for all your posts on your experiences. I got something from you... why I'm so stuck on my W speaking to me like nothing is wrong. I'm waiting for her to really feel sorry for all this... to ask me how I'm feeling and to show that she cares about what she's done.
Like when your W said she could not remember cruel things she said after BD (my W forgets too) and you at first felt a bad funk b/c she had invalidated your experience. Then you realized... "WHY did I need HER "remembering" to validate MY experience?"
Your words gave me a bug ah-ha moment. Through my need to be right... my need to feel validated... my need to have my pain acknowledged... I'm keeping myself in this pain. Not letting myself detach.
I'm focusing on letting that go.
Thanks again TSquared.
Happy New Year everyone.
HP
If you need dark to cope, if you need not to talk on the phone with W, if you need not to see W because it helps you, then for the time being in my book it's fine to do his. This makes life sensible and stops passive aggressive arguments and hurt then do what you need to do.
Give yourself space and time and gentleness. To my mind Nelson Mandela, ghandi, David Beckham and Robert Redford are the best role models for men. There is a quiet strength rather than a Tarzan style. Be who you are and keep on working on that inner man. Go GAL.
My aged P (93) says that a man that can't dance can't make love, so tango is great for seduction! My dad can dance and he is a true twinkle toes, something magical about a great male dancer. tango is elegant and will teach you how to lead in dance, takes a while to master though and the mans role is tougher than the girls. I dance the Argentine Tango and I Love, love it!
HP too much introspection and too little GAL will drive you crazy.
I am admiring of your strong stance on the booze. Alcohol is a weak drug and lots of it act as a depressant.
HP this is a journey not a destination, the road and terrain are rough and uphill sometimes and it is the way you cope with those times that is the true measure of a man. As far as I am concerned HP is all there and doing fine. If it doesn't work adjust, but so far looking great to me.
Happy New Year to you and S
Vanilla
Happy New Year everyone. Thank you for the kind words of support and the heavy 2x4s.
3 months into this journey, I wanted to write about my outlook for this new year and my M.
I know this year will be a good one for me. It must be.
I don't know about my M and that's what it is. Learning to live with that.
And the learning starts right away...
Text from W wakes me at 5:30 this morning... "I cannot afford x% of the tuition and taxes. That number does not seem fair. I cannot find a good home for S11 and pay this much. We need to talk."
She goes on to say I make much more money and have lower expenses in the condo. She has big student loan debt which she'll likely have to start paying soon. She says we need to see a mediator or find a way to talk and settle on things.
I try to go back to sleep.
I wake to a new year thinking how funny this will be to me one day.
I remember 25 telling me it is not my job to teach lessons. That is life's job. I remember to be polite and professional.
I reply... "Hello W. Happy New Year. Understand your concern on the plan you agreed to yesterday and I know you want to be fair..."
Went on to explain the number I suggested is the ratio of our monthly incomes we've always used for everything (since we've always used only a joint account). Said, unfortunately, the IRS uses that ratio to determine how much tax we both pay monthly. Said, believe state shared custody law also uses the ratio outside of other variable expenses.
Closed with... "Understand this is hard. Of course if you want a mediator you should hire one."
Ten minutes later a reply... "Happy New Year. Ok if that's the right amount then that's what I'll have to honor. Have you consulted an attorney?"
She goes on to ask if I need her to disconnect utilities and what remains to be packed.
She closes with... "I feel so sad HP."
I reply... "OK thank you W." I say I will disconnect utilities. I ask her to please give S11 the truck keys when she drops him here later today. I thank her again.
Half an hour later she replies. Says she will leave keys in the house, some packing specifics, and asks what time will the moving truck come on Sunday.
I let her know the time.
She says OK.
...
With her current monthly income, she may not be able to afford a really nice place and a nice car like she's used to without help or a new job. If she can't defer her student loans again (she has for years) she could be negative with the taxes and tuition on top of that. That's outside of daily expenses.
Even so... I think she can do it. She's a smart go getter and I would be proud of her if she got a new job and made it work. We'll see.
She's had a few panic attacks since I enforced my I won't live in an open marriage boundary. But she recovers back to her determined self. I'm sure she'll be that next I see her.
I did not acknowledge her lawyer question or that she was sad.
That's my first accomplishment this new year. Did I do OK?
Looks like a nice day. I'll go for a drive and a run.
Onward.
From a novice ( me ) you seemed perfect. We'll done. Rd
Great job, HP!
Fantastic HP
Just wonderful
Glowing with pride for you
Vanilla
Happy New Year HP.
I thought you handled it very well and for the first time in many texts (from an outside POV) you were not antagonistic, but seemed very polite so thats awesome.
She's had a few panic attacks since I enforced my I won't live in an open marriage boundary. But she recovers back to her determined self. I'm sure she'll be that next I see her.
Thank you for saying this, I really needed to hear it myself. As you've been following my thread, W and I were on very friendly, daily interactions for the past 2 months. Then a couple days ago I told her I will not support her financially as long as she continues to stay at OM apartment, regardless of what the Army requires me to do. For the past 2 days, things have been...tense...but she is now actively looking for her own apartment, and I keep wondering if I made the right choice by rocking the boat and enforcing that boundary.
Sorry if this is a semi hi-jack, but it makes me feel good to see that after what you did, your W slowly is accepting it not as a punishment, but just something you drew the line in the sand in.
Hello rd500, Starsky, TLEE86, and Vanilla. Thank you so much for the support. I felt like I was fair and brief and businesslike. I hope she sticks with her agreement and I am prepared in case she does not.
Just saw her as she dropped of S11. I did much better... prepared on the elevator ride down. Came out with a smile. Kept the PMA. Stayed more relaxed... not completely but much better. Did not really greet her or say good bye as she looked very tense and stressed and hurried off. Less than 30 seconds. She had that look in her eyes which I see is different than the W that I knew.
On that point... she sent me a picture the other day... she and S11 ran into an old acquaintance of ours. They took a picture together and sent it to me. She had that strange tense look in her eyes and that's when I noticed it. Her eyes are hard and she looks different like she's aged a lot. But then another acquaintance of mine who I ran into said I looked 15 years older too. Oh well.
...
For these first 3 months... I came out of blissful denial into anger... pushed too hard with my boundaries... pursued with my yelling a few days ago... but also really conquered some fear and pain to take some very hard actions for me. I've relaxed to much for 3 weeks and now finally getting back to GAL and self growth. I'm also in therapy and on antidepressants.
My plan is to check in with myself in 3 months on how I'm progressing here... my growth and where my M is.
My goals for 3 months are to learn to tango, workout at least 2x per week, run at least 15 miles per week, save at least $4000, make at least $2000 from side business, make at least 1 better 2 therapy session per week, put in a full day's work everyday, and plan a spring break trip for me and S11.
For my M... I'm going to consistently be neighborly and PMA around W.
Though I want an R... W is looking very unattractive to me right now. I am committed to 6 months of standing... but I do think of filing D now every few days. I will go see another lawyer in the next couple weeks about custody, alimony, and the fault clauses here on adultery.
Even so, I would like to find a way to get me and my son out of this city, so I know I should cooperate with W. So I will work on myself, being, looking, dressing, acting, working, living better. While getting better... I'll check on W to see how her life is treating her.
I have a DB Coach call with Chuck tomorrow. I didn't follow his advice to meet for Christmas... and 25 also talked about spending time with her. We'll see if there's anything more I can do now to maybe smooth things out with her in a way that I can successfully do.
Part of me, though, knows she's someone who only really respects leadership. A leader in my position wouldn't be waiting for her. He would leave her behind, live, not give her much of a chance to R, and D her. Right now she knows I'm standing... just realized I'm still wearing my ring. Now it's off. Let's see how that feels for a while.
In six months, I want to have a new car, a new little home of my own for me and S11 near his school, money in the bank, new wardrobe, and a new permanent confident and happy attitude about my life.
I image 3 rocking chairs on a porch. I'll sit out there with S11 on warm evenings. He'll be reading his comics and I'll have an iced green tea and an inspirational book to learn from. If W can and wants to join us in our happy home... there's a chair for her too. If not... I won't have any trouble finding a lovely wonderful woman to sit with me. I can feel the warm breeze on my face now.
I'll be there soon enough.
Onward.
Fantastic plans HP. Very determined and manly.
As you move away from booze and you replenish the glow will return.
Vanilla
Thank you Vanilla for your always beautiful and inspiring words. You are a blessing.
...
I touch of concern and headache with the W...
We have the one family car. When I left the condo with S11... I also took the car.
I told W that I would pay half of a rental car for 30 days. She seemed to forget I said that the first week of S. The 2nd week, she wanted access to the family car. I had to remind her I offered to pay half of a rental car. She asked for $300 which seemed high. She ended up taking $400. She eventually put the extra $100 back (after I asked her about it). The next week, she asked for $300 again. I gave her $150 and explained why.
Now, I sent her a plan yesterday for buying her out of our family car and using that money to pay for her part of our move from our old home. She almost immediately agreed to it by saying "That's fair." This morning, though, she said she couldn't afford it. I explained how the plan is fair and she said "If that's the right number, I'll have to honor it."
I also asked her for the keys to our car today. She texted she would leave them in our old home (for me to get tomorrow). When I saw her today, I asked for the key. She got kind of weird saying "oh I left them..." then she started waving her hand around like she was trying to think of the name of the thing where she left the key. She never said. Her car key is on her house key.. always in her purse.
Back to earlier this morning... I went for a drive. Got in the car and noticed, the rear car seats were up when I had left them down. W had been in the car yesterday when she came to pick up S11. No problem, I think. She wanted to get something.
But then I start thinking... Why say she would leave her car key in the house when she's driving in her rental to see me today?
One of my fears since the condo move idea (thanks Wonka) was that she would fight for the car. She has argued a few times about the car as joint property that she should have access to. The car rentals were good... but I might pay for only one more week. And she won't have money on her own to get a car and an apartment next month easily with all the other bills she now has to pay on her own.
I'm pretty sure she will try take the car tonight or tomorrow morning when she comes to pick up S11 to take him to hotel overnight in the mountains (when she has no money). I imagine she feels stuck and trapped (her words) by all the financials now. I've seen her lash out terribly whenever she feels this way and she was jittery this morning. I really think she will do this.
I am very sad about this. I hope I am wrong. Even so... I parked our car down the street and around the corner instead of the condo parking lot.
Even worse... before I BD her about the condo and hr PA... she was being nice to me about buying S11 a computer for Christmas. She mentioned she wanted to use it too for her business to "look good." Even after we moved, she kept texting "Are you going to get a computer for S11?" She even asked Christmas morning. I never answered. Of course I got him the best PC out now which he loves. Since, she has asked S11 to bring it to her so she can see it. For this little trip their going on, she has texted to me again specifically to pack it.
She is going to get S11 in the middle asking to borrow the computer Dad brought for him. I hope not... and I wouldn't like it if she did.
Anyway... a bit of a headache now about this. I really really do not trust my W... especially now that she seems cornered by her choices. She agreed to the plan to easily yesterday and this morning... both time bringing up the low cost of the condo... the low cost she was depending on to finance her adventures.
I really hope she's not trying to disrespect me again. Before I left... in one of her sad moments... she talked about how all her plans and ideas for her dream life had failed. I hope she remembers now she's married to a genius. I trusted her before so I was in full denial. That's no longer the case.
Man... if all this is true... how can I possibly keep standing for this woman? Is this MLC or anger or fear? Or is this person the real person she's been hiding all this time?
She really sees me as the enemy to her happiness.
How can we ever R?
...
Funny... the doorman here recognized the tension between me and my W. He confidentially told me his story of separation and near D. HE and his W got all the way to the D table after a 6 month S. She hated him. At the table... they decided to give it another try. It took and they've stayed M 40 something years now. Maybe not happily... but still.
HP
Such trickery and manipulation.
Get s11 to leave his computer with you, virus or other excuse.
Buy a boot or a hook for the car.
Be pleasant to W as you are being now. detach from the other stuff and the other rubbish stuff.
W's dream life has disappeared, well there is a wake up to come. Followed by cold shower ala HP style.
Personally HP I would not change a thing.
Vanilla
HP, maybe not happily? What's that about? Why would anyone want to live unhappily just to avoid D?
Hello Maybell and Vanilla.
Maybell... The doorman kind of implied things in his M aren't 100% happy. He's a super interesting man though... so he deserves better if that's his case.
Vanilla... I had a better idea. I'll act clueless and let W use S11s computer. It will just have a secret keylogger on it. B/c it's my son's computer and I'm a good dad and I want to know what sites he visits and all his passwords for safety. Absolutely.
Care on the snooping HP. It's a destructive cycle.
Preventing W from purloining S computer is a different thing to using it to snoop.
Not sure on this HP, may set you off on a destructive cycle.
Vanilla
Yes... I was having a very negative episode a little while ago. A little thought spiraling out of control.
I was reading Tsquare'ed sitch last night. 3.5 years I think standing with W in house. A very strong and centered man. I was wondering if I could do that.
Or my dad... 6 years in house. I don't think I could do that.
So that's why you don't focus on the W. I'm here in a nice condo with my S11. She's not here.
I'm lucky right now. Focus on the right things.
They do it, one day at a time HP.
As will you, I am confident
Vanilla
Before I left... in one of her sad moments... she talked about how all her plans and ideas for her dream life had failed.
That is good, if she was referring to her fantasy. The fantasy has to not only fail......but die.
Have you thought about how her OM has not come to her rescue? I bet she has noticed he hasn't. If he was stepping up to show her how valuable she was to him, I doubt you would be seeing all that tension in her face.
Hello Vanilla and Sandi.
Thank you Vanilla. One day at a time is right. I'm better everyday... only 2 down stretches a day. That'll be gone in a few more days.
Yes Sandi... that was precisly what she meant. She was on the internet in women's magazines following how to separate as friends advice. That was her fantasy... her "procedure"... to compassionately let me down easy while enjoying her secret A, being a great mom, and living off my paycheck for months while she saved her money for her own place.
Then she'd say she found someone after we separated and we'd all be friends at the end and I'd be happy for her and she would "dance at my wedding." I remember the dreamy look on her face when she was talking about all this and how great and "crazy" being separated would be for us and how energized she felt about life changing.
Then I started acting and she became miserable as she is now. Dreamy look long gone.
I have not really thought about OM. If I did, I'd think he was away with his family for the holidays.
She has said she is staying with her aunt until she gets her own place. Whether she does or stays with OM... she won't keep S11 if she doesn't have her own place and she can't do her job or be the mom she wants to be without a car. She says she is stressed about that I and believe her. She has to get those things done quick if she wants to keep her son for overnights and keep his trust (he says he doesn't trust her). When I BD'd her about the condo, she cried to me to not let her son see her sleeping on someone else's couch.
Even so, I would think she may feel afraid to ask for or take money from OM b/c in her emails she says she is afraid he will leave her b/c she has so much going on. This was before I took my money from her and she started having real problems with me.
If she was secure in him... or would feel embarrassed to tell him her money problems (more likely b/c see feels "trapped" and embarrassed about our tax debt)... she wouldn't have been willing to stay with me and my money for 8 months. Then I discovered her PA and she went crazy and stopped going out at night to stay with him and feigned transparency to stay friendly instead of just leaving. She's even still asking me for money help in paying S11's tuition and our taxes and her student loans. She's not going to get my help.
So, she shows she does not want to bring her money pressure problems into her fantasy A. And, if she does, he seems the type to pressure her to to let him help. We'll see.
HP,
Your story is reading similar to mine with the fantasy dying with the A and OM. My W held her A close at hand for almost a year as it got more involved. She went over the edge and tried to get OM to leave his GF (included in this was her BD to me, I think to show OM she's serious.) I think her original plan was that she would leave me and OM would leave GF. Then during BD, I think she thought I knew about the A (which I didn't) by my questions about our R and how there must be something she wasn't telling me, since it seemed like our M was fine.
Then how she just left me and the kids w/o anything, everyone else figured out there was an OM, which totally wasn't her plan. She could no longer look like the victim and 'find' the OM helping her recover from her D. Well, to compound it, it seems he said 'no' even after she left.
Now, I'm not sure what their status is now, it seems like at a minimum that he's using her for the PA. Now W has a house and I think it will be another step that he doesn't commit, which will be another nail in her fantasy. It stinks seeing her go through this and be manipulated by OM, but she's shut me out of her life so she needs to go through these things for herself.
HP
I do agree with your analysis here, however try not to mind read about the past. 2014 gone poof!
Relax let those thoughts go, your strategy is working, there will come a time to soften but that is future. Bridge crossed when you get there.
My life observation is that almost without exception the OPs I have known have been weak, needy or unprincipled. Not a good basis for an R. My glam sis H cheated on her, there was a baby with OW, sis to clever nephew. My glam sis is so wonderful she has taken half sis of CN on holiday and bought presents from CN to half S (when CN too young to get them). Glam S xH married OW but guess what they have both cheated and OW rang glam sis over Xmas to ask if her H was at glam sis house as he had disappeared over Xmas. No, he def wasn't, but he's not turned up. CN21 is worried about his half sis17 as she is distinctly muddled and CN half sis is now staying at my glam sis and CN, crying her heart out and talking. My beautiful glam sis has taken her in as she doesn't want to go home. It's her A level year too, so very important. Glam sis has said she can stay until her A levels are done if needed, but really half sis needs her home so it should be only temporary. Glam sis says half sis is a lovely girl and not responsible for her awful parents. CN loves his half sis and says she can live with him after A levels. Looks like xH will be homeless unless he has an OW somewhere. What a mess.
These are every day stories on this site, but how awful to have two wayward parents. Some of you wonderful DBers stabilising for your children, HP by your example and bravery in changing you are a really fantastic dad.
MCS will chat on your thread but same applies, shining and changing.
Vanilla
Hello LITB. Thank you for support. I read your sitch the other night and learned a lot from your experience so any hard earned advice you can give me would be much appreciated. I admire your persistence and I hope things continue to go well for you.
Hey HP....Happy New Year!! I've been reading up on your sitch. From what I gather, you are doing well with your progress. It is a process, and we learn as we go. You have made significant progress in a short amount of time.
I am more than happy to share what I learned with you. Many of them get repeated over and over on these boards, but they aren't easily grasped until you live it. Someone had this on their sig,"There is no teacher like experience." There is so much truth to that statement.
Detachment(dropping the rope)
No Expectations
GAL
My sitch changed twice when I dropped the expectations, and was living my life as I knew it. A single father. Honestly thought I was done both time, and was embracing my new life. Life happens, and things change.
The main thing, is to utilize this time to make the changes within yourself. You will be better for it, no matter the outcome. I see that you are already doing that. Props to you.
Day #20...
Had a call with DB coach Chuck. Echoed what 25 said...
Time to make interactions with W actually friendly.
Time to be the better me... compassionate to someone who is hurting.
Time to put my feelings and needs on the shelf if I'm to do this.
Time to remember 25's empathy lesson... my W is scared, hurt, lonely, and angry.
She was all those things at the beginning of this when I was working hard to be empathetic even while I was angry and hurt. We had some great talks where I actually listened. The only difference now is what I know... and that some of what she said and wrote in those nice communications was painfully far from the truth. Maybe all of it. That's a big difference.
But there really is nothing else to do. If I keep making her feel punished and sh!tty every time she's near me or has to deal with me... then I won't get where I want to go ever.
I'm not sure where that line between being confidently firm and punishing is yet. I see though that it is my attitude making the difference.
So, instead of acting any one way... I'll again look at my W compassionately as a hurt and scared and angry but good woman who sees her chance at a good life slipping away and go from there.
Nothing to lose there.
Thanks for the update, HPoirot. It's always interesting to know what the DB coaches are saying. I'll continue to follow your sitch closely, not only because your journey is captivating, but because I'm at the same point of finding the right attitude with WAW.
Reposting a post I found on LITB's thread which really helped me today...
Here's some absolutely great advice from Greg. Thanks, Greg.
********************************
Do you feel like you can't go on? Like your world is nothing without your spouse?
Well... YOUR FEELINGS ARE DECEIVING YOU. You can go on, and you can have a great life without your spouse.
After marriage, you both come to rely on one another for many things; love, confidence, security, and many other physical, psychological, and material needs.
But, how did you survive on your own before you were married? Could you survive on your own before you were married? Are you surviving on your own now? Legitimate questions here folks.
Marriage requires a certain amount of co-dependency from each spouse as noted above. Here's the kicker: You have to learn to be independent before you can successfully be co-dependent. This is not a one-way street either, both spouses must learn to fend for themselves.
Giving your walkaway forgiveness, time, and space to develop or recapture their sense of self-worth (the soul?) and individualism is the BEST thing you can do for your troubled relationship.
And You. You need to build/maintain your own unique individualism, and be comfortable on your own before your walkaway spouse will see you in a positive light. These positive changes are what manifest into major doubts for the walkaway spouse as to whether or not they are doing the right thing by leaving you. The right thing meaning, the right thing for THEM. After all, this really is about them.
Worrying, begging, pleading, obsessing, negativity, and the list goes on, are all extremely counterproductive to your efforts. These are traits of a person who depends on other people to make them happy and get them through life. Do you want to live the rest of your life with a person who acts in these ways? Well, your walkaway spouse doesn't either. The truth is, other people can't MAKE you happy, they can only make you happier than you already are. True happiness comes from you and only you.
So, is this crisis in your life really a crisis, or an opportunity for personal growth in disguise?
People, please take care of yourselves FIRST. It will do incredible things for you and your relationship.
Peace.
G
Another good post to remember and what I'm going to restart doing now...
In regards to the WAW.
PICNIC ANALOGY:
Imagine that the WAS is inside an impenetrable castle. WAS is deep inside the castle walls and has no desire to see the outside world. WAS has his/her own world right there inside those cold, stone walls.
Then there's you. You're sitting on the other side of the moat (drawbridge is up, btw). You've got a nice blanket laid out on the cool, green grass, and you're enjoying yourself by having a wonderful picnic all alone. You're absolutely content with this, and aren't even concerned with the castle and the WAS within (in fact, you've got your back to it).
Eventually, WAS gets a little curious about the what's going on outside the castle, and decides to take a peak over the walls. WAS sees you, just sitting there enjoying yourself. He/She is surprised, because previously you had been throwing rocks at the castle, singing and dancing in hopes of getting their attention. WAS is wondering what you're up to, and why you're so content. After a while, WAS decides to lower the drawbridge and join you at your picnic. WAS sits down, and you just act as if -- you're happy, confident, etc. Suddenly, WAS realized where he/she is and what he/she is doing, and it scares the hell out him/her. WAS jumps up and dashes back to the castle for no apparent reason. You however, didn't even budge or flinch. WAS peeks back out to see what you're doing, and notices that you're still sitting in the same place, enjoying yourself without concern. Again, WAS is surprised, and eventually comes out again. This time WAS stays a little longer, but again gets spooked and runs back. However, you're still not deterred from enjoying your picnic. The WAS's visits begin to happen more and more, and they last longer and longer. Once he/she realizes that there is no risk for him/her (i.e. that you won't bring up the R, pursue her, get angry, become needy, etc), WAS begins to reflect on things, and begins questioning his/her choice to go to the castle. In time, WAS decides to bring up the R, and this is when you can discuss it with him/her because WAS is ready and has initiated the talk.
THIS is why it is important to avoid pursuing, because it gives the WAS the opportunity to miss you, reflect, see your changes and strength, etc. So, the next time me or anyone else tells you to just enjoy your picnic, you'll know what it means. This is a term that we used a lot this summer, but it kind of went away. I think it describes the pursuit dynamic perfectly. Don't chase the WAS back into the castle and hold him/her captive by standing outside the walls and trying to get his/her attention. As long as this is the case, it is likely that they'd rather starve themselves in their castle than come out.
Hi HP, just wanted to say happy new year to you!
I did the polar bear swim on new years day in 40 degree water when it was below freezing out and I thought of you and your icy showers! Wow that really gets the adrenaline pumping. Maybe I should start doing it myself but I do love my hot showers.
Thanks for posting that stuff from "Greg". Really good stuff. Also, you are doing great, keep it up. I too have been working on detaching and now am considering being friendly and supportive. Showing empathy instead of defensive anger. I think it is better for my soul.
Good luck to us!
Hugs, Lisa
Oh and PS don't give the computer to your son to let your wife see it. Bad idea. The keystroke recorder will only hurt you. Don't do it!
Quote from Band of Brothers that applies...
We're all scared. You hid in that ditch because you think there's still hope. But Blithe, the only hope you have is to accept the fact that you're already dead. And the sooner you accept that, the sooner you'll be able to function as a soldier is supposed to function. Without mercy. Without compassion. Without remorse. All war depends upon it.
My marriage is dead.
My life is good.
Carry on.
HP, love the reference. Have been following your situation and sounds like for the most part you have things controlled.
Not much to add - got some upsetting news today from courts related to upcoming date that I wan't aware.
Guess we are all in a battle of sorts.....
Stay strong!
Hp, you have helped me more than you will ever know. I also am in the same place as you. Your sich and you have helped me without even knowing it. Keep going you got this!
Thank you LIsaB, SemperFi00, and 3kids. It is so nice of you all to say I'm doing great and "I have things controlled." Wow... really? You guys really help me b/c sometimes I feel... well wait... I'm not going to say what I was about to say.
Reality is I am taking control of what I can... my actions and responses... and I'm getting better everyday. That's all.
Very nice of you 3kids to say I'm helping you. I am humbled. I saw in your thread your W saying you are not thinking about her (b/c you are not returning her contacts). Interesting she would say that or care in current circumstances. My W also expressed I'm avoiding her and not "facing this head on" with her.
Interesting how they leave us but want us to think of them or respond to them. That's what DB coach was saying today... just be responsive and friendly neighborish more b/c somehow that's what they don't expect but want. But we all know that.
Just don't show your anger like I have. I see that's the most important thing for me regarding interactions. The last time my W called me crying about what she is doing... reaching out to me with something to say... I blew up at her and cursed at her and told her how to feel and what she should do. All seemed very logical to me but as we know words don't help at all.
Anyway... back to it then. Lot of work tomorrow to shut down the old home... then the movers come the next day. Then W has no home and no car. I could have never imagined this just 4 months ago.
For the past year I've been wanting freedom. I had been calling it time freedom... time to make my own choices and do what I want to do. I thought that meant my own online business. And it still could. But... I'm free now aren't I? Hmm...
Day #21...
I woke up shaky this morning. I woke up a couple times during the night thinking about my W's A. My mind gets to a point thinking that way then I wake up and the thoughts are still there and growing. I'm recognizing the triggers that bring this on. Not as bad as weeks ago... but worse then it has been. I used stop thoughts, counting my breaths, and took a sleeping pill middle of the night. Not great.
I'm now committed to cracking the door open for friendliness with my W. See... just typing that brought up a negative feeling in me. I can remember she's a good person in pain b/c it helps me feel better about what I choose to do here. This is hard and will take conscious decisions by me minute to minute to keep thinking my W is a good person and I empathize with her feelings. Minute to minute. I relax and accept that. When I choose to relax and surrender to all this as much as I can, thinking my wife is a good person is not as hard. Being angry is just the easier choice.
And just that fast doubts and images of her in WAW action bubble up. Choose to relax. Minute to minute.
Time for breakfast, ice cold shower, and then off to the old home to pack. She won't be back with S11 from their trip to the mountains until late this evening. It could be a good time to choose to spend a few minutes around her. I'll decide later. There are those doubts again. And anger.
Minute to minute.
This is hard.
HP you keep making good progress. Keep it going.
Like others have said I think you will really benefit from practice's to calm your mind. Personally I think you might also need to find a healthy outlet for your anger, I might be wrong but I get the sense that sometimes you are trying to dismiss it or suppress it, rather than process it.
I was going to expand on that picnic metaphor you found (I liked that), but it got a but tangential. So instead I simply say, whatever she has done wrong you're wife is in a lot if pain and she (rightly or wrongly) sees you as at least part of the cause. She is wounded and scared, if you see her like this its much easier to feel compassion (not pity) and I think that's the emotion you need to be able to safely open that door a crack
I read that it's good to bash pillows on the bed with a rolled up newspaper for 5 mins and rant & rave. You feel angry and it needs an outlet. But that outlet shouldn't be your W.
Find another way, so that you can release your anger and hopefully feel calmer when you see your W.
Maybe you could set some mini targets, so you can take baby steps with her. What would be a 180 from some of your previous 'tense' interactions with her? Choose a little something and give it a try, and remember, this isn't about her, it's about you learning to link positively with someone that you feel angry with - and that's for your own (and your S's sake.) Tell yourself that, if nothing else, you guys are going to have to co-parent, so best if things are as pleasant as you can make them.
Thank you Jim and Toots. I am taking some steps to process my anger. In the first few years of my M, I took up meditation. It was the good time of my life, where I felt and acted more confident and successful. My W bought me a mediation stool which I used every morning. I dug that stool out today and will start my meditation practice again. Just 5-10 minutes to start. I used to do nearly an hour. I'll get myself back.
...
Today wasn't fantastic.
I went by the old house. It was a very sad feeling. Everything boxed up. We'd lived there for 5 years and I could not think of it as horrible. It certainly was not yet here we are. I threw away a lot of things I would usually keep. Just wanted to get clean of stuff I've head onto since my 20's but never touched.
Then, I visited the church right across the street I've never entered in all these years. I beautiful old Roman Catholic church. Similar to the one I grew up with. It was really magnificent. Right there all this time. Walked right by it everyday. I'd never been inside.
There was no one else in there and it was dark. The only light was from the stained glass windows. A really special beautiful time. I sat on a pew for a little bit... and then I let myself cry. I cried for a while. Then I got on my knees and prayed. For strength, clarity, patience. I prayed for my family... for help to bring it back together. I prayed for my W. Prayed to God to help her and keep her safe.
...
I tried harder today to be good to my W.
There is an ice cream machine that I borrowed from her aunt years ago but never used. While I was there, W texted me if I had seen it. That she would swing by the house later to pick it up. I saw it and put it downstairs. Didn't text her back right away.
Then I went back to the condo. Emotionally tired. Took a long nap.
Got 2 more texts about the ice cream machine. "Please let me know."
Sent her a text back... "Hey sorry was busy. Machine is downstairs in the house."
She replies... "Thank you. HP how are you?"
I remembered what DB Coach Chuck says... look for times to validate/connect on feelings. I just couldn't. I did not respond.
Later... get a call from S11 who is coming home from a hotel overnight with his mom. "Dad, are you home tonight?"
I say "I don't think so son. I may go out." I wasn't sure yet.
I hear W in the background telling S11 what to say. "Where are you going dad? Is it for work?" He sounds sad.
"No just some fun. What is it son?"
He wants to come over to visit me. He's supposed to spend the night with his mom at her aunt's for the first time... her temporary home.
I say he can come over and spend the night with me if he wants.
W comes on the phone. Explains he can come over for a couple hours to relax and shower and then she would pick him up. She'll go by the house and then get some groceries for herself. I agree.
S11 comes in later and he is down. We talk. He had a nice time but wants to spend the night with me. I say that's between him and his mom. He should call her.
W then calls. This time I answer and sound in a good mood. She's at the house and asking about small stuff not yet packed. Asks if she can do anything. I say I will take care of those things when the movers are there... I'll just throw them in a bag. Tell her not to worry about doing anything. Kind of rush her off the phone. Pizza delivery had arrived.
She calls right back though. Apologizes for calling. Asks if S11 is OK. I say yes... trying not to be impatient. She says he had a great time and more. I say OK no problem got to go and hang up. I can get better at listening b/c now I see I can't remember anything she said.
She calls again later and I again pick up. She's laughing at something someone just said where she is. I note my irritation. She says she's at her aunt's and is everything OK with S11. I in good mood say great, he's having a good time. She say's she'll pick him up in an hour. OK.
S11 wants to spend the night with me. He doesn't seem to like his aunt's house, doesn't know where he will be sleeping ("maybe a couch" he says), and he complains there is a noisy newborn baby in the house. I tell him that is between his mom and him and he should call her. He does. She wants to talk to me. I'm at my limit talking with her but I do and keep the good mood. I say it's OK for him to stay with me. She mentions my plans. I say they are not plans I have to keep. She says since I have him tomorrow she should have him tonight. Ok then. I should have let her work it out with S11. Anyway, I gave him back the phone.
S11 does not like this and tells me again he wants to stay with me. I told him how sorry I was and he would have to call his mom. He doesn't want to upset her he says. She just pulled up downstairs. He just walked out the door. I don't want to see her right now.
We'll see how S11 does at the aunt's as W's calendar has him staying there Wednesday to Saturday. Without his game systems and all those older people about that he doesn't really know... not sure how he's going to like that.
Next thing to deal with is her rental car. I told her 30 days but possible she won't remember that. If she asks again for money on Tuesday, as she says she wants to have S11 later this week, I'll tell her it's the last time and then we'll see. I don't want her to think I'm controlling her... but she will if she doesn't remember I said 30 days.
Looking at this post... I can see how exasperated and tired I feel. I was reading bustorama's sitch from the beginning... how he had trouble at first with pursuing and anger from his W but by 3 months into separation he had a great balance, really changed himself, and was able to really detach eventually.
I'm 3 weeks into a separation that I forced over a holiday season so I know it makes no sense to feel too discouraged about my R. I know... no expectations and no need to read anything into anything that happened today.
Except I'm sad for my boy. And I'm sad that I can't bring myself to stand my W right now.
I need to find that line where I allow my W to communicate with me. Trying to forgive and be empathetic. Right... I was only trying to act like I was in a good mood talking to her tonight. I forgot to feel real empathy for W like I said I would and then act from there
Of course on some level she must realize how negatively this is impacting S11. He thinks he's sleeping on a couch in a strange house tonight... exactly what she was afraid of.
When I took him here to the condo... I showed him where he would sleep, where everything is, got him comfortable way before we moved here and it's just the 2 of us. Easier for me... harder for her.
I could have said something about that... and that I have faith that she can handle it and make the best of it. And then really hope that it goes as well as it can instead of expecting the worst which I do. I shouldn't expect that she fails... just let what happens happen and hope for the best for my son and for her.
Lesson learned then. Better next time.
Just forgive and enjoy my own picnic.
Tomorrow... moving day.
Onward.
Well... disaster happened anyway. I could use your opinion.
Last post I said S11 wanted to spend the night with me. W had him spend the night with her at her aunt's house. She also scheduled many nights with him over the next couple weeks.
Just got a text one hour into her effort... "HP.. until I get a place S11 should sleep with you. He is very anxious about being at my aunts."
She goes on to suggest keeping him one night a week and a weekend night. She also offered to pick him up from school several days.
I'll have to remind her that I'm only paying for one more week of car for her. Well maybe 2 since I didn't pay the first week.
So should I insist she stick to her schedule? She was just saying on the phone before she picked him up that we should stop switching nights (b/c S11 wanted to stay here tonight).
While I want my son with me... I'm thinking this is her issue to deal with. That, and she will probably change her mind once S11 settles down.
He's there for the night. See how it goes and go from there.
S11 and W will have to navigate their relationship. I would encourage you to have a positive role in this, while not actually pushing either one of them.
But, on the other side of the coin, if S11 continues to not want to stay with her, an alternative might need to be explored. My parents are D and I was forced to see my dad against my will. HATED it. It wasn't until I was 15-16 where I really had any feedback,
Side note: I cannot even imagine dealing with your W daily. And I'm not trying to be rude. But she is all over the place. Like she's trying to convince herself that she can do "her new life" and then wants to be rescued from "her new life" a few hours later. I don't know how you aren't exhausted.
So should I insist she stick to her schedule? She was just saying on the phone before she picked him up that we should stop switching nights (b/c S11 wanted to stay here tonight).
While I want my son with me... I'm thinking this is her issue to deal with. That, and she will probably change her mind once S11 settles down.
HP, I think I'm probably in the minority, but I'll take my D12 every single time H says he can't or doesn't want to. Every. Time. But he's only done it once, and he doesn't spew at me like your W does. Still, that's my answer. You'll have to consider what feels right for you. We can all offer up opinions, but it's your kid, choose what's best for him.
I might be in the minority as well, HP, but I look back at your post and maybe if you re read it too you will see how many times you noted that S11 said he wants to stay with you and how many times you say he can stay with you so I think you know what feels right for you. More over, you are set up to have S11 and W is not at least not yet.
Did you mention empathy in a past post?
Let us know how it goes.
So much going on with your W all over the place you seem to be the an oasis of stability right now for your son.
I agree your son needs a stable secure port in the storm. It is hard when we are going through emotional stress to see beyond our pain. Find something that feeds your soul. I work in a hospital and I am reminded on a daily basis how lucky I am to have tomorrow to worry about. Your are your sons role model. Keep up the great work! You got this.
Hello Calibri, rppfl, and happy.
Here's my issue... I'm really getting out of her way. Just accepting and respecting her decisions. Learning how to do so without controlling... like regarding finances... or looking like I'm saying "I told you so."
I see from successful Rs that this is the trick. Enjoy my picnic. No rescuing her outside of an emergency. Focus on fixing me.
So you're right Calibri. S11's there for the night. He'll settle into it and it will be uncomfortable but he can do it. W knows that the newborn baby in the house doesn't sleep well so she I'm sure will have a solution. I told S11 his mom will want to hear his feelings and to not be afraid to upset her. No emergency there.
And yes you're right and not rude at all Calibri... it's amazing to me that my W will make a thoughtless or hurtful decision and then soon after cry for help or a break or money or compassion or a quick response. And then act absolutely entitled to get those things. I know it's fruitless to try to understand so I'm just expecting it. And yes I am frequently exhausted with her.
It's frustrating b/c this with S11 tonight was entirely predictable. I knew this would happen with S11 in the condo so I prepared him and he loves it here. Frustrating that W did not anticipate this. I'm not in her way.
What's best for S11 in this situation? For me to grow to be the best man I can be. Tonight he may be uncomfortable... but his mom will take care of him. And I should expect her to take care of him like she promised.
But what you said worries me Calibri... if I have the chance to keep him here with me where he wants to be... won't he feel badly towards me if I don't take it?
OTOH... I have kept S11 much more nights so far. So I'm the babysitter again.
I'm getting out of her way. Life teaches the lessons... not me.
Still thinking on it...
Just my parenting approach, but I wouldn't give so much wiggle room to S11. If you constantly consult with him and change your plans by the hour, you also give him the impression that you and your W don't really know what's good for him.
I'd take his opinion into account, but as part of a larger plan, not to decide every single day. When he asked to sleep with you, I'd have said: "No, tonight is with your mom. You'll be okay." It's reassuring to know that competent people know best and are protecting you.
I have to disagree respectfully. HP you seem to be a more stable source for you son right now.
OTOH... I have kept S11 much more nights so far. So I'm the babysitter again.
HP, it's not babysitting if it's your own kid. It's parenting.
So far my sharing percentage with D12 is 65% and my sharing percentage with D16 is 100%. That's fine by me.
And in regards to Mozza's comment, I just wanted to clarify that what I said was that I'd take my D12 everytime "H" wanted me to. Not every time "D12" wanted me to. We jointly decide what's best for her. So I agree with him there.
I realize my sich is very different from yours, HP. I have a H who's a really good dad and we are cooperating nicely in the co-parenting department. I know you'll do what's best for your S in your own sich. You are in a tough spot -- good luck.
HP
The decision about S11 is between you and W, but of course S11 has a say.
If S11 is sleeping on a sofa with interruptions plus a crying baby and it is interfering with S11 progress especially at school, then the best is for him to stay with you in a stable peaceful environment. But HP and W decide ultimately about S11 schedule. I really don't understand the sleeping arrangements at W aunt, they seem lacking in clarity.
I think this is one where you will have to discuss with W a revised schedule if the night does not go well. Besides shouldn't W be on the sofa and S11 in the bed room or in a cot bed in Ws room? W hasn't handled this well at all in my opinion, but perhaps when she is a more stable home environment this will improve. It is very early days and nothing needs to be settled in stone. Sounds like temporarily S11 may need to be with you HP.
You handled your move to the Condo well and settled S11 into his new life there with great grace and planning.
The car, 30 days is generous and an extra week more than generous. It has achieved what you wanted it to achieve peace and less hassle over Xmas and the great move but time for W to manage her own transport needs now she is at aunts. However I think I would tackle this car issue in a different conversation to that of S11 schedule.
Stay calm, you can do this with kindness, after all you both want the very best for S11 and his stability and wellbeing is paramount. This is another transition event HP, you can meet this next challenge.
Peace of mind and a alcohol free time
Vanilla
Thank you everyone. This is hard and I appreciate your support.
S11 called me earlier... Again with W in the background telling him what to say. He sounded down. Asked how the move was going... When it would be done so his mom could bring him to me. I told him a time and he sounded upset. "So long!" He said. He told his mom. Asked him how he slept. He said he got some. He Sounds sadder. I tell him how sorry I am. He says his mom wants me to call her about the drop off time which I just said. I told s11 bye and take care. I don't call his mom. I will talk with him and will keep him more nights. Life teaching the lessons.
The move is going smoothly. Hired pros. It will be expensive. W did leave the car keys in the house so she has agreed to trade the truck for her cost of the move.
Being in the house was sad. Our life there was not alll bad. I note that a lot of the bad memories of me W mentions were before we lived there. I got through walking away from the house better than I thought.
Again I want to talk with w. Nothing I can say. She won't show me how she's feeling now and I'm making it clear I don't want to know with how I'm acting. I would listen though if it was the right thing to do now. Just give it time and be empathetic.
Now I have to see how W fail with S11 with effect my GAL plans. Got to make that happen now.
Onward.
Hi H , You seem to be doing really well. Sorry to hear S sound down but he will be with you soon. Take care. Rd
You got this HP
((((HP and S)))))
V
Oh God I am tired.
I know in the early days on almost any sitch I've read about... R or no... the WAS is angry with the LBS and spew and tension always happens. Then, if the LBS can just stay calm, enjoy his own picnic, and be confident and attractive, the WAS at least could calm down too.
So... W was supposed to drop S11 off today at x time. I was tired from the move and made a mistake... I passed out to sleep. Did not hear the phone ring when she got here. The doorman would not let her in. It was 15 minutes later when I got up and saw they had called. She had to go up the street to use the bathroom. So she was of course irritated.
She asked me to come down b/c S11 had a few bags. I remembered empathy and really did great. I smiled and looked and felt content. I remembered her hurt and saw it... she is still very uncomfortable and tense around me. I came over to her car and cheerily said hello to her. That seemed to surprise her and her face changed a lot and she smiled and returned the greeting. She asked if the move made me tired and said she was sorry about that.
Then she got serious and talked about S11 at her aunt's house. Her concern was he doesn't like it there and would have to wake up extra early to make school. I kept up PMA but turned my body slightly away from her like I was readying to leave. My W will say things 3 times in different ways when she's anxious or angry and that's what she started doing. I felt my irritation rising. I smiled, said "Got it W. See you" and turned and walked away.
She started talking again and followed me. I was saying I need Fridays for my plans. She was saying that's fine... mentioned specifically she was going to a concert Saturday with her cousin. Said we need to talk about a schedule. I asked her politely to update the calendar with her days. Thanked her. Turned and walked away. I was looking cheerful but getting more irritated. It was the longest we've spoken in 3 weeks.
She immediately texted me... "HP we really need to talk. Sit down and talk. Fridays should be fine but not every Friday. There are Fridays I need as well. Let's figure this out."
After 20 minutes I reply... "Hello W. I'm flexible. When you make a schedule, I'll let you know what I can and can't do. For fridays just tell me what fridays you need and I'll stay home or get our sitter."
Reply... "I am flexible too. I just want to make it ok for s11... and you. Thanks HP."
So I'm trying and getting better with interaction with W. For the first couple minutes I was really feeling OK. Once she started her anxious repeating herself I did cut her off with "Got it W" but I was smiling as I turned to walk away. As soon as I got up to the condo, though, I was feeling the frustration and anger bubbling back up. It got pretty bad too.
So... On a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being totally supplicating and 10 being totally distant/hardass, I'm thinking I want to be about a 5 or 6.
A say this b/c, in our most recent M time, I was pleasant and funny with her but did not make her feel seen and heard and valued. All those she needs to start feeling emotionally connected. Instead, she felt ignored by me.
I seed I'm doing more of the same ignoring and I am controlling. So while I've gone dark I can still be pleasant and pay attention to her when she's around and showing that I am flexible and not punishing. Today was the best I've done but still a way to go.
I think pleasantly saying what I want then saying I'm flexible and showing I would handle any scheduling conflicts myself (getting a sitter which I've never done) helped.
At the same time, I part of me is screaming I should be doing nothing to make her feel better and should not be jumping to fill her requests or rescuing her. The little boy in me then. Quiet the little boy (I read N.U.T.S.).
I know it's been said to me before... just treat her like a neighbor. I think I did that except the rushing her and walking away. I'm not ready to sit with her and listen to her try to tell me how this S should go. Even so, I can remember empathy and to treat her politely like a neighbor I don't really know.
You still can work on this by continuing with your path of self-improvement. The first step rig now is to focus your support of W as a Mom. There are a cole of ways to do this.
1) Work on getting her input more often on the kids
2) Talk to her in a respectful and collaborative tone when discussing the logistics related to the kids
3) Offer to take the kids away for a while to give W some alone time
4) When a problem arises, approach W like a team member and say "W, here is a situation that I would like for us to tackle together. I'd like your thoughts on this, but please hear what I have to say first. (Detail your approach). What do you think? Any ideas?" Or something like this.
Right now, W is going through a withdrawal from XOM. It will be a while before she fully detoxes from him. This means that you're going have to put your needs and desires on the shelf for the time being.
The common bond you have with W is the children and you need to work on getting her to a "feel good" place as a Mom. What I mean by that is not to be nitpicky over small things and support her as the mother. Make sense?
Just saw the above on U's thread from Wonka. This seems the perfect approach for me. I can put aside my feelings about everything else W is doing and focus on our support of S11.
W already feels she has failed S11. He hates where she's staying now (they slept in the same bed and the noisy baby), may not get an apartment he would like (unless she gets help which is another fail for her), has to drive an hour to his school and gas, and may not have a car soon to do all she wants. That, and S11 is starting to walk away from her when she asks for a kiss.
So I can do what Wonka suggests there and still be dark. Just be the better choice.
Praying for strength.
I can do it.
You did great. Keep going. Rd
One question I have... my W feels that I'm secretive and hates that. When I started GALing... she got angry once saying "You're so secretive!" I felt the need then to explain what I was doing to calm her. (I know better now.)
My mystery GALing also started her going on more GALs herself with her saying "Well I don't ask where you go," while she offered lies abut where she went (without me asking where she was going).
Now that I'm starting to GAL again, I've been telling her I have "plans" and being mysterious.
In my sitch... with my W... could this backfire on me by her getting more angry with me or just moving farther away from me?
Her thinking... Well that's more of the same secretive HP not including me in his life, not responding to my calls, not talking with me, ignoring me like he always does.
I know this works of course to make the LBS feel better and grow personally. And I know she can't move any farther away from me than she is now.
I just don't want to alienate my W any more than I already have.
Just having a moment of doubt. Thanks.
HP,
In my mind, a set parenting schedule with W will free up some times for each one of you to GAL with the knowledge that the other parent is looking after S11. This allows you to have space to be a parent and being yourself without those assumptions and expectations built in which usually leads to disappointments when they're not met.
What you're doing is a lot of mind reading. Don't get ahead of yourself.
You've been advised to respond to W accordingly and promptly when the occasion calls for it. I get the sense that you're starting to get the hang of this process and you're now over thinking things. Don't go there.
The more she is thinking about what the hell you are getting up to is the better is my thinking
But at some point you have to reconnect that's where I struggle
how the hell do you know that the time is right
In my sitch... with my W... could this backfire on me by her getting more angry with me or just moving farther away from me?
Her thinking... Well that's more of the same secretive HP not including me in his life, not responding to my calls, not talking with me, ignoring me like he always does.
Please! She was the one with motives for secrecy. I just get amazed how LBH'S can get so twisted around. Sure, you can walk around on eggshells afraid you will make her angry. If you want to continue living under her manipulation, go back to how you were when you first arrived here. But if you want to live like a free individual, you won't allow her tricks to work on you.
She is always saying the two of you MUST sit down and talk. About what?
You know what it is, don't you? She is missing the "conversations" that once were available to her. That is what she wants from you. So, she will find something as her excuse.
The sooner you get a schedule made out, the better.
HP,
In my mind, a set parenting schedule with W will free up some times for each one of you to GAL with the knowledge that the other parent is looking after S11. This allows you to have space to be a parent and being yourself without those assumptions and expectations built in which usually leads to disappointments when they're not met.
What you're doing is a lot of mind reading. Don't get ahead of yourself.
You've been advised to respond to W accordingly and promptly when the occasion calls for it. I get the sense that you're starting to get the hang of this process and you're now over thinking things. Don't go there.
Hello Wonka. Thank you so much for this guidance. My struggle is, we do have a set schedule now. W has shared a calendar and she set up a schedule for the next 2 weeks. One I had no problem with.
Then, on the first hour of her first night with S11, she says she can't do it. Not just b/c S11 doesn't like it there and there's a newborn crying there... but now the extra long drive and traffic to school has her "concerned" as she says S11 will have to wake up so early. All predictable things.
And she has not said how long she will stay with her aunts. Or when she will get a car.
So I just have to face it and be understanding and firm like I was with the joint bills. She set the schedule so she can live with it. I'll be understanding and flexible as much as possible.
Also, you said "assumptions and expectations built in which usually leads to disappointments." Just making sure... you mean assumptions and expectations like assuming when I'm supposed to take S11 and when she is when we don't have a set shared agreed upon schedule?
Thank you again Wonka. I do have doubts with my results sometimes but certainly not as bad as before. I do see progress in my interactions with W and with my growth.
Right and I will just keep doing what I know to do. Not think about it... just do it. I'm months and years away from anything I'd prefer to see from my W if that's at all possible.
In my sitch... with my W... could this backfire on me by her getting more angry with me or just moving farther away from me?
Her thinking... Well that's more of the same secretive HP not including me in his life, not responding to my calls, not talking with me, ignoring me like he always does.
Please! She was the one with motives for secrecy. I just get amazed how LBH'S can get so twisted around. Sure, you can walk around on eggshells afraid you will make her angry. If you want to continue living under her manipulation, go back to how you were when you first arrived here. But if you want to live like a free individual, you won't allow her tricks to work on you.
She is always saying the two of you MUST sit down and talk. About what?
You know what it is, don't you? She is missing the "conversations" that once were available to her. That is what she wants from you. So, she will find something as her excuse.
The sooner you get a schedule made out, the better.
HA! Thank you so much Sandi... I was so turned around I didn't see that obvious thing. By the time she said that she had kept so many terrible secrets. It's like when she said "We're not going to have a bad separation b/c there's no lies here" and then later didn't remember saying that.
No I will not go back to my blissful ignorance at the start. I'll keep pulled way way back from her while being prompt and cordial and neighborly on S11 stuff.
And yes she made a schedule for the next 3 weeks she now says she can't keep. So we'll see.
Thank you again Sandi.
The more she is thinking about what the hell you are getting up to is the better is my thinking
But at some point you have to reconnect that's where I struggle
how the hell do you know that the time is right
I believe when a couple separates, there needs to be a period of time where they should avoid contact with each other. It is so easy to trigger something during a quick exchange, texting, etc. They need that space from each other to regroup and calm down where they feel a bit more balanced in their emotional equaliberim.
This is why I do not agree with the idea of getting all buddy-buddy. How could it be genuine? IMO, she needs to know he is not happy about what she has done to the family, and frankly, he is not interested in being her friend. He is done! That is the only message that will cause her to rethink her actions.
The WAW and LBH should be civil, and that is all, during this adjustment period. Otherwise, the LBH will be putting all this unnecessary pressure on himself......just like HP is doing now. He should not be concerned now she feels about him GAL. It is ludicrous! He left that stuff behind him......or should have.
After the LBS has had time to get stronger and has a life without the WAS, and can work through some of the resentment issues, self-respect, Etc., then he can begin showing more friendliness whenever they have contact. I do believe It has to be a gradual process. I also believe he has the right to evaluate her actions and if he feels he does not want to be friends, then he should not be made to feel he owes it to her. He should not feel pressured about it.
Paul, you say how will you know when to reconnect. I would say it is when you start seeing the woman you use to know. When she truly ends things with OM. When she stops the disrespect. When she stops the lies, manipulation, etc. When she is more interested in you than her phone. When she starts thinking about what's best for her family, and makes them her priority instead of herself. When you can look into her eyes and she doesn't turn away. When you can talk to her without her appearing she is in too big of a hurry to get away. When you can stand near her without her being repulsed. When she begins to show remorse.
Those are just a few. Until you begin to see these things in her, you are spinning your wheels.
HP.. whenever I've complained about my WAH not keeping to our schedule, it was suggested that I approach it like a problem we need to solve together. What does she suggest? That you keep S11 all the time? Ok, perhaps you can understand that her living situation is less than ideal... can she offer a suggestion to give you some time to yourself, too?
It seems like when your approach is open and kind, she responds in the same way...and is very sensitive to not feeling listened to (hmmm...). So, listen, validate. Then, don't use "but"...use "and" you have commitments and needs for time too. Ask for her help (in an open, problem-solving way).
I think you'll be surprised at how she responds. I think she seems to feel shut down by you, and perhaps that is a trigger.
What do you think?
I would also add that I was very tense and angry in my interactions with my WAH for a while. But then I just chose to be more neighborly. I don't really ask about his life (and he never asks about mine), but I always say hello with a smile and try to make it at least 85% genuine
(I usually whisper at him to F off when he's gone...)
Anyway, pretending to feel that way has helped me to actually, truly begin to feel that way.
For ex: i found out he was going to Vegas for new years. I was like, oh, that sounds fun! Happy new year. We'll see you friday." And I went on my merry way...
Can you fake it till you make it?
I'm with Sandi on this one.
The more she is thinking about what the hell you are getting up to is the better is my thinking
But at some point you have to reconnect that's where I struggle
how the hell do you know that the time is right
I believe when a couple separates, there needs to be a period of time where they should avoid contact with each other. It is so easy to trigger something during a quick exchange, texting, etc. They need that space from each other to regroup and calm down where they feel a bit more balanced in their emotional equaliberim.
This is why I do not agree with the idea of getting all buddy-buddy. How could it be genuine? IMO, she needs to know he is not happy about what she has done to the family, and frankly, he is not interested in being her friend. He is done! That is the only message that will cause her to rethink her actions.
The WAW and LBH should be civil, and that is all, during this adjustment period. Otherwise, the LBH will be putting all this unnecessary pressure on himself......just like HP is doing now. He should not be concerned now she feels about him GAL. It is ludicrous! He left that stuff behind him......or should have.
After the LBS has had time to get stronger and has a life without the WAS, and can work through some of the resentment issues, self-respect, Etc., then he can begin showing more friendliness whenever they have contact. I do believe It has to be a gradual process. I also believe he has the right to evaluate her actions and if he feels he does not want to be friends, then he should not be made to feel he owes it to her. He should not feel pressured about it.
Paul, you say how will you know when to reconnect. I would say it is when you start seeing the woman you use to know. When she truly ends things with OM. When she stops the disrespect. When she stops the lies, manipulation, etc. When she is more interested in you than her phone. When she starts thinking about what's best for her family, and makes them her priority instead of herself. When you can look into her eyes and she doesn't turn away. When you can talk to her without her appearing she is in too big of a hurry to get away. When you can stand near her without her being repulsed. When she begins to show remorse.
Those are just a few. Until you begin to see these things in her, you are spinning your wheels.
Sandi... your post is gold and I have bookmarked it for daily reading. I'm printing it and hanging it on my mirror next to my "Let her go" poem.
Thank you so much for simply describing what I should keep doing. Yes, when I was angry and leaving and leading I was not at all concerned about how W felt about my changes and GALing.
Now, after she asked S11 to ask we where I was going Friday night... and then today's asking and texting me about my Friday night plans... I see I let my old fear of making her angry come back.
Her offers to have lunch together with S11, to sit down and talk, to communicate, her apologizing for calling me, how she gets upset when I turn and walk away from her only for her to repeat what she says and follow me... I see how all that is wearing on me and my hard stance on not being her friend right now. I do want to speak with her but I'm not ready and it's not the time.
So yes I'm getting to the right place regarding how I interact with her. I'm getting better and being civil without being angry by remembering empathy. GALing for real this week to get my mind off her will make that even better.
This really is a wonderful and powerful post Sandi. I think it should be in the documentation her for those of us dealing with a WAS in an A.
Thank you again.
HP,
I want to share a bit of my story about sharing schedule about the kids. Ms. Wonka and I were parents to fur babies. Ms. Wonka kept our cat and I retained main custody of our dog which was worked out prior to her moving out.
One week it was Ms. Wonka's turn to have the dog and 6 hours separated us at that time. One day, Ms. Wonka texted me asking if I could come up and pick up our dog a few days early. I pushed back and texted her that it was her responsibility to look aft the dog during that time and I would pick her up at the agreed upon time/day. She backed down and stuck with the agreement.
Whether it is a kid or a fur baby, one must adhere to the agreed upon schedule and cannot change it to suit their needs or whims. HP, I think it's time that you hold W to her side of the schedule. It is what a separation is all about and W needs to put on her BGP to learn what a life is like on the other side.
Well thank you, HP. I hope it helps.
Sandi2: I also want to thank you for your post. I found an answer to my own dilemma in it and posted it on
my thread.
Regarding the schedule, I'm entirely with Wonka. This constant renegotiation is like having no schedule, it introduces uncertainty for S11 and a lot of tension between the tow of you. Also, keep it simple with a permanent schedule (same thing every week), not something done by the week to fit some ad hoc plans. When I have plans during my week with the kids (very rare), I get a babysitter, like in the old days. I don't bother W with changes and adjustments. She does the same.
The welfare of S11 comes first. Right?
Vanilla
Just wanted to say... NAJ1964, if you're still reading here... would be great to hear from you. How are you doing?