Day #9...
Just posting b/c had my first IC session. My good luck is holding...
Some advice first... if you're looking for an MC or IC that does Solution Focused Therapy, you can Google "Psychology Today Therapist search." The site lets you filter by Solution Focused Therapy.
I used that and found a wonderful IC 10 minutes up the street. She was aware of DB, understood my sitch immediately, understood how my W is addicted to out of control emotions, understood that the best and only thing I can do is detach and take care of S11.
So, that's our mission... to get me to really and truly and completely detach and get better ASAP. I told her about my 6 month plan and she agreed. Everything we talked about here... keeping minimum contact with W on just S11, taking care of myself, GALing, taking responsibility for my neglect of my M and making those changes, breaking free of co-dependency, finding happiness no matter the outcome, no new women for me... she recommended all those things. And I will be taking antidepressants. She says they can take at least 4 weeks to really start working. I didn't know that.
She had me read this aloud today and everyday from now on...
TO "LET GO" TAKES LOVE
To let go does not mean to stop caring, it means I can't do it for someone else.
To let go is not to cut myself off, it's the realization I can't control another.
To let go is not to enable, but allow learning from natural consequences.
To let go is to admit powerlessness, which means the outcome is not in my hands.
To let go is not to try to change or blame another, it's to make the most of myself.
To let go is not to care for, but to care about.
To let go is not to fix, but to be supportive.
To let go is not to judge, but to allow another to be a human being.
To let go is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes, but to allow others to affect their destinies.
To let go is not to be protective, it's to permit another to face reality.
To let go is not to deny, but to accept.
To let go is not to nag, scold or argue, but instead to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.
To let go is not to adjust everything to my desires, but to take each day as it comes and cherish myself in it.
To let go is not to criticize or regulate anybody, but to try to become what I dream I can be.
To let go is not to regret the past, but to grow and live for the future.
To let go is to fear less and love more.
So everything we're doing here.
And she's pro-marriage.
Another ally. That by itself was very healing.
Now all I have to do is hunker down, get better, take care of my boy, and keep going.
I can do this.
Onward.
Such a great post - a real joy to read. You can do this HP!
High five!
Love, LOVE that poem. Thank you for posting it as I feel it's timely for all of us. It resonated with me at a very deep level.
I know I needed to read every line. Thank you so much for sharing
HP,
Thank you so much for posting that it is going to help us a lot
Thanks for the post HP.. It has helped me today..
HP, thanks for sharing, definitely a must read. Looks like I have a new hw assignment everyday as well
Thank you everyone for your comments on the poem. I'm glad it helps.
This is still so hard though. I woke up with horrible thoughts again. Wondering how it's possible for my W to treat me and S11 the way she has. I know much better and still no amount of mind tricks keeps these thoughts away completely.
I told my IC that I felt I enabled my W by leaving. After I told her I knew about her PA, she stopped going out all night and on weekends. Part of me wishes I'd stayed or had her here in the condo so that could continue and we could have a chance to connect again.
My IC said no, I did the right thing leaving. To get S11 away from a toxic place. For me to get better. Honestly, i feel I've gotten worse. Before I could at least be nice to W knowing where she was. Now I have too much time to wonder what she's doing. Still asking myself how she could think I would have Christmas with her. Stupid thoughts I can't afford to think. Very painful thoughts. I hard to accept she'd be away from her son for so long. That she let me take him here to the condo.
She is who she is now. I want very badly to detach from that person but I know that wanting keeps me attached. Now that she's not here I see there's a whole new set of challenges to face. Namely I want to speak with her... Want her to explain herself. Everytime I imagine that happening... Me calling or texting to ask her "what the hell are you doing?" I see how weak that is. Then I feel more hurt. Nothing I can do about her. Let her go and find something to really enjoy today.
My next IC meet is in 2 weeks.
I'm on day #10 here in the condo.
I think it's day #4 without a drink.
Today I'll go for a run. Eat right then treat myself to ice cream.
Just keep going.
You're not alone on the need to understand and ask questions. Someone here told me that even if BF explained, it would still sound like complete b*llsh*t. I'd love to sit him down and chew him a couple new a$$holes about how he's treating people and the unconscionable things he's done, but it wouldn't make a difference. They feel justified.
It's hard to let go of that, but trying is the best we can do.
Thank you Little. Yes it is hard to let go when you care for and are hurt by the person you trusted. I see in your sitch you have times when you feel almost there and then something reminds you. I'm really looking forward to getting there myself when I can speak to W without caring at all.
Like today... she texted me to please transfer $300 to our account for a rental car. I offered before to pay for half her car. (I refrained from asking her for the receipt.)
I didn't do it immediately. I wanted to ask her about the cost as it seemed high.
I little while later she calls S11 on his phone. S11 hands the phone to me. She starts in about how I must answer my phone especially if I have S11. I calmly say, if you keep screaming at me I will hang up on you. She apologizes and starts about the rental car. I ask her to explain the cost which again sets her off. She did explain the cost in detail but I had to calmly remind her again I would hang up if she kept screaming. She apologizes. I agree to send the money.
Then she asks how S11 is. I tell her not good. (IC said to let W know about S11s moods as she's his mom.) He gets sad. He had a panic attack the first night I brought him here last week. (My IC said I should tell her as I didn't when it happened.) W started on how she didn't know and why didn't I tell her. I said I'm telling you now. She said she was starting to have a panic attack. I reminded her again about her screaming and she apologized again. I asked hasn't she noticed him being sad b/c of what she's doing. (maybe I shouldn't have said "she's doing"... guilting.) She said we're separated, of course she's seen him sad and happy. (So we're doing this not her. I moved out while she wanted us to live together after all.)
She then said, it might help him if he sees us talking. That we need to talk. I said, if she has any suggestions, email them to me. I'll consider them. Call me or text me if she has an emergency. So I repeated my boundary again but again forgot the script.
Told her I was busy and I had to go. Hung up on her.
I was very calm and even this time so improvement. I was not friendly so still a little ways to go.
Still, again she does not seem to get that we're not just separated people trying to figure our lives out for ourselves. She's having an A so I left her and I'm not her friend b/c of her decision. She doesn't get a happy family or an H who's in a hurry to help or talk to her. She doesn't get her worries soothed every morning when no one calls her or responds to her texts and calls.
The guilty part of me thinks I'm still too harsh. I'm getting to the point of treating her like co-worker I'm not friends with. I still had a touch of contempt in my voice today and irritation about contact from W. So I'm at treating her like a very irritating co-worker that I don't like. I throw the vital empathy lessons from 25 out the window when I interact with her now.
Thing is I know how to act... friendly co-worker or neighbor. Minimal contact on S11 only. Not showing anger or sadness which shows I'm not detached and gives her control. Over and over again it's as simple as that. Just remove the contempt.
If I don't let go of my anger, I don't detach. If I don't detach, we don't get out of this phase we're in where I can't bear to be near her and she can't feel comfortable around me. If she doesn't ever feel comfortable around me, she won't make any move closer to me and healing will never start.
I know it's still early in my LRT (that's what I'm doing right?), but I can't see warming up to her while she hasn't even said she's reconsidering her A. Until she says something about it, I can't see myself acting much different than I am now... just without the contempt.
So I'm not going to ask her out for coffee or anything like that. I see that she wants to talk, so there are opportunities there to be friendly. I should do that then, right. Meet every time we hand off S11, be cordial, return her greeting, return her conversation, make it brief and say good bye.
B/c right now it's possible you may be thinking I'm being a dick again. How can I possibly make room for an R if she feels like sh!t every time she calls or sees me?
I don't know. How should she feel when she sees me? I don't think I know the right answer.
She just texted... "Thanks for your help with the rental."
Funny... the correct response is "You're welcome." But I'm in such a state now that my mind explodes in every possibility of response. What each one means and could do to help or hurt our R.
How should my sorry but unrepentant wayward W feel when she contacts me?
I don't know.
Honestly, I don't know how to get from here to anything better with her.
So I'm ignoring her text.
Hi HP, I always read your threads and I just wanted to pop in and say I am so sorry for what you are going through. We are all here in the same boat but your W's behavior with her emotional attacks are just incredible. You have done and are doing so well! You really need to be commended for that.
It will get easier, and harder. You will continue ups and downs for a long time I am guessing. But overall it will get easier I think.
I frankly admire you so much. I would not be able to be as patient and calm as you have been in the face of your W's antagonism and antics. It really seems she has nothing better to do than harass you all day long. Up and down, nice and mean. You are doing so well in the face of that. I would have exploded looong ago!
I know what you mean about feeling guilty but don't. You are being strong and kind in the face of a stressful situation. She is very lucky to have you as an H.
Let her go try to make a relationship with this OM. It will blow up, guaranteed. When she doesn't have you to perform her crazy antics on, she will do it to him. And he probably will not have the kind patient soul you have. Then maybe she will hit rock bottom and realize what stupid choices she has made.
Well, this was longer than I meant it to be but I just wanted to say how well I think you are doing. Keep on keepin on HP!
Hugs, Lisa
Oh thank you so much Lisa. You are so kind and have made me teary. My W is very lucky to have me? Want to meet me later for a drink? You are so wonderful to say that. So very wonderful. I could kiss you.
...
I'm having my first real logistical problem and I want to throw in the towel. Want to call my W and beg her to save me...
I don't have dinner in the house and it's 6pm! I'm still working on an immediate work problem. I can order pizza but it will take a while and we've had pizza too often already.
OK time to go to the grocery and start cooking starting tomorrow. I can do this but I feel sad about this little issue I'm having.
I really can't call my W and talk her back in here? She's not waiting for me to call her? Seriously? She has no more sense of humor? We're starving!
Side note: So a sense of humor does not work on the WAW? I can always make my W laugh. Well she likely not interested in a funny guy right now. Never mind.
Jimmy Johns (I don't know if you have that) fast sandwich delivery
freaky fast
Whammo!! - Dinner
Son will think its cool
Don't fret - I think you have higher expectations than the kids for dinner. I used to worry about a good 4 item dinner for the kids and they looked at me like I was nuts worrying about something like that. It's great to usually do, but not necessary all the time.
Thanks for your help today!!!!!
HP - you are doing great just to be worried about getting dinner on the table for your son. Plenty of people in the world can't manage that. Give yourself a break and order pizza if you need to! More healthy choices can come later...
HP
What about me - don't I get a kiss?
I too really admire your posts, you are such a caring person and your wife is crazy to give you grief. Your devotion bring s a tear to me eye. You really are the true definition of a husband.
Hang tough friend.
Let me repeat what I've said and what others have said: you're very impressive. I'm always surprised when you sound pessimistic because I see your witch as one of the most promising ones.
Because I can't help being in solution mode, let me give you two tips for the meals, this coming from someone who wasn't cooking at all three years ago and who now cooks every day (with kids!).
1. Set a weekly menu. Eat the same thing every Monday, Tuesday, etc. Cooking and grocery shopping become so much easier. You'll add variety later.
2. Keep spaghetti and a can of tomato soup handy. Mix the two (Add onions, salt, pepper and butter to take it to the next level). It's a life saver when you run out of food. My kids love it and I remember it as one if my favourite meal as a kid.
So, do I get a kiss?
Hello Jan! Yes I certainly have a kiss for you too. Thank you for your kindness. I say kindness b/c like everyone here, b/c I'm devoted, I struggle to stay brave and sane. Really struggle.
I know it's b/c I have hope for my M. Even after everything my W has done to me and S11... I remember she has been hurting too for a long time. I wasn't there for her the way she needed then. I feel the guilt for that. I know she's a good person. I want to see this M work. I want to be good to my W. I want to be a good H.
Too much wanting. Too much expectations. Too much hope. Too much pain.
So I'm still not yet doing this only for myself and S11. I'm still just acting as if I'm moving ahead with my life. I still pick up my phone looking for a text from W. She just sent one... "I will be there at 9 for S11." It was 8am before. Another change. Just information. Much more than I give to her now certainly. But I know she doesn't care about my lack of contact now.
I try not to remember her crying last month about my not answering my phone... about losing my friendship. Manipulation. I should just turn my back on her. She's earned it. I won't though. I'm a good man. My son needs his mom. I miss my W. Hurting myself.
My son and I drove to get burgers. I was hurting again. Chanting "I am the big planet" from Theoden's recent post helped. I did not get beer. Sat with my son and the pain. It went away enough after a while.
I've been wondering how my W has left S11 out here with me so long. Since we left last week Sunday, she's had him 2 nights. She drove him to and from school a few days. She'll call to complain if he hasn't answered her call... then sound flat on the phone and only talk briefly when he does. If I think about that too much... I'll start to hate her. I don't want to hate her.
I was cutting S11's hair just now. Washing his clothes. Getting him food. This is how it is. I'm the sitter while she goes and "lives" like she told me she wanted. "You don't want me to live" she told me b/c I'm the one who wants our family to live. I actually felt angry cutting my son's hair just now. Then I remembered... I'm the right one. The one doing his best. Loving his son. Even loving his W.
Need to love more than that, though. I see I need to love myself. I don't... not enough yet. Still disappointed in myself. Still feeling soft. Still feeling sad. Acting as if helps. But, I know what I really have to do. Just have to get outside and GAL it done.
I 'm doing 90 days NC. This has been day #10.
I got kindness today here on this thread. Thank you.
I think I posted some good advice on other threads today. Thank you for the opportunity.
My dad sent me and S11 a wonderful Christmas gift basket.
I live in a nice Condo for almost nothing.
I have a job working from home making great money.
My s11 is happy.
My OW called me again this morning on her walk to cheer me up. She sent me a picture of the
My SIL called to check on me and asked my permission to talk with my W.
I've gone 5 days without a drink.
I just told S11 to make sure he calls his mom. I'm just going to do that to avoid any issues. He's on the phone with her now. He just asked her to come back to us. Telling her he doesn't like what is going on. I did encourage him to talk about his feelings. Glad and sad he's finally doing it. He said he's noticing how his mom doesn't seem stressed like he feels. Now I see this phone call with her is longer than usual. Doesn't matter.
Now she's calling me...
Well, I have to apologize to myself and all of you. I had just had a terrible R talk with my W. I yelled at her. Let everything out about how she's been acting the last 3 months. All the lying and the PA. Got a lot of would've could've from W. Turning it around on me... the man sized hole I left in her. The Woman sized hole she left in me. She has feelings for OM she can't negate. SHe sobbed like a crazy person. I didn't believe her. We yelled at each other. She triggered something and I called her a F*cking B!tch. I triggered her and she went on about how there's no way we can be together. On and on. Down to our son. We love him. What's the best for him. She went on about MC... doing it to learn how we got here... if there's any way it can go on... how to co-parent. I said I wanted to take him to therapy. She said excellent idea. I said not with you. While OM is in the picture... no. Told her I'm going to bed. See you in the morning. Hung up on her.
It was terrible. Everything DB says not to do. Everything I tried to leave on the page here. All the anger. Everything. I gave it to her.
I don't see anything now. No R. No M.
I'm not mad. Not shaking. No pain.
I'm done.
Can I save this? I don't know how. I'm not done. What can I do?
She left me a voice message. So I was controlling. Saying if I thought this was easy for her and that this is about OM that I'm so completely wrong. That I never accept the truth about how she feels. That she would say she's sorry and remorseful but I wouldn't believe it. That is always about me and my feelings.
She said... "I'm telling you the truth about my feelings and you do not want to deal with it. You do not want to take this head on with me. You don't want to do that... you want to tell me what I ought to feel, and how I shouldn't feel and what I'm doing wrong in what I'm doing right and I'm telling you that this is what I feel. And you have known it and you know it."
So yes I was telling her my view while saying I heard her view. I didn't do it well. She didn't hear me. I made a huge mistake tonight.
And now I want to call her back.
I like this voicemail from your W. She's telling you very clearly what she wants from you. Believe her when she says it's not about the OM: she's telling her truth.
My W did the same: she left me for OM four weeks after meeting him, yet thanks to my email archives, I realize now that it was much more about what was going on between us. Would we still be together if she hadn't met OM? Sure, for a little while longer. But our ship was heading for the iceberg before he came to pick her up with his raft boat.
So accept her truth, validate her feelings, tell her what you're sorry about. I feel the same urge as you to tell her how upset I am, but the truth is that the only thing I would hear is what I want to hear. It's the same for her. If you stand a chance it's by listening, asking her about her feelings, about the real reasons for her departure, never mentioning OM again, etc.
You're still convinced in your heart that this is just her being selfish and irresponsible, but it's likely that it's a way for her to survive, to accept a happiness that was denied to her recently. It's hard for her to turn it down, especially when the dopamine kicks in. Go along with her for a little while, explore her side of things with her. It's a good thing for you.
HP,
I am sorry that you're in a bad place right now. What the hell happened? What was the real root of the trigger that led you in the R talk briar?? Did the pressure cooker blow for you?
Mozza you are a good man. She doesn't want anything from me though accept to be nice to her in front of S11 so he won't think badly of her.
Anyway... I went your way Mozza. Sent her a text...
"I got your voice mail.
I'm sorry you feel I don't want to deal with your feelings.
I can only imagine how terrible that was for you all these years.
I recognize that I haven't heard you like you deserved.
(long long pause here)
I apologize for that."
Reply after last line... "Thank you HP. I am very sorry for hurting you"
I'll hold the truth dart. I did say during the yelling how if she was really sorry she would stop disrespecting us. She doesn't see it that way.
HP,
I am sorry that you're in a bad place right now. What the hell happened? What was the real root of the trigger that led you in the R talk briar?? Did the pressure cooker blow for you?
Hello Wonka...
First, S11 just woke up moaning and sleepwalking a little. He does that under stress. He heard me yelling at his mom then. He's back in bed. I'll watch him.
Yes, S11 called her tonight and finally told her his feelings... that he wants her to come back and all this is stressing him out.
She then called me sad and teary. Talking about what S11 said and how sad it is. I can't really remember what it was. I got angry and just let her have all of it. Just how horrible she's been to us. How could she talk about being sad after all that. How I left her for my sanity and to protect S11. I really made her out to be the bad guy which got her sobbing and turning it back on me and how I left her a man sized hole that OM filled and then on and on and back and forth. I did not hold back the whole time in my head saying to stop.
That's what happened. I got mad that she was just sad that S11 was sad.
She be here to pick up S11 in the morning. She wants us to be civil around S11 b/c there's nothing else to do. Nothing else to say. This is where we are and if I say otherwise I'm not hearing her feelings.
HP,
I hope you will remember to really step back and let W deal with her own emotions on hearing from S11 how all of this is affecting him. I is their relationship and boy she isn't liking how this is impacting everyone.
Then you just had to blow a gasket which diverted W's attention away from the damage she's causing to the family on to your angry tirade and she's off to the races firing back at you. What was lost in all of the angry exchange was a teachable moment for W. A missed opportunity here. Of course, what will happen is that W will be reflecting on what a jerk you were instead of her son's distress by her very poor choice.
Do you see why we all hammer home on the importance of not acting/reacting on one's emotions? That just sets you back several steps like the Chutes and Ladder game.
It can be much more difficult to regain lost ground with your W. It'll probably set you back by a week.
Take a break and regroup.
We're here to support you. Never fear that we'll just disappear. Chin up, buddy.
Thank you Wonka. I see I cannot at all act on my emotions. This was a terrible failure I made and yes I see it set me and all this way way back. 1 week as you say which is bad yes. I really believed, though, I blew the whole effort. Part of me still does.
Yes S11's phone call was the natural consequence of her actions. I became a distraction to that. I see that very clearly as you say Wonka. Horrible lesson learned tonight.
Even so... tomorrow I just STFU x10. She keeps saying we're separated... let's just accept that we're separated and be civil for S11. So tomorrow I will go out to her car... I will greet her if she greets me. I will be businesslike. A coworker.
She keeps saying I'm blaming OM but I know the truth (her feelings). I brought him up I'm sure as we were talking about why I can't just be nice and understanding with her. I won't bring him up again.
I'll send W my choice for a therapist for me and S11. Likely my IC.
I will keep going. I apologized to my S11 tonight for all this. Said I love his mom and she loves him. Said I hope we can all be together again. Said I'm really trying. He said "I know dad. You're doing great."
Funny... even W on her voice mail said she was glad we finally talked tonight even with all the screaming. I'll leave that at that.
Just pick myself up... keep going.
Made a mistake... keep going.
Keep going.
Yes, you've got no choice but keep going. Eyes forward, private!
I'll send W my choice for a therapist for me and S11. Likely my IC.
Whoa. Who said anything about sending W your choice for a therapist for YOU and S11?? How's that relevant? It is your business.
Helllo Wonka. W was upset that she thought I wanted to take S11 to an IC without her input. I said I would of course consult with her first. She again threatened a lawyer because again she didn't hear me. So I made it clear again I would ask for her feedback on the IC I choose for S11 to see.
Other than that, feeling horrible this morning. After she stopped her hysterics on the phone last night, again she was so even about not loving me. Not loving me for years. That if she hasn't had her A it would still be true and the same as now. I was so wrong last night to pick up the phone. Last night was a talk we already had except I was screaming at her. I might as well have begged her to come back.
If you're reading this and you're where I am, please just STFU. Don't make this mistake if you have hope still because you will suffer on that hope. Let go of your hope and expectations. Your WAS is gone. Like they say here, that person wants to protect themselves from you at all costs. The pain youre in means nothing to your WAS. Get on with your life and do what the vets say to ease your pain. That's all you can do. It hurts to hear your spouse not care about your pain. Too much.
So today i'll send S11 to his mom. I won't see her today. Im hurting because I still have hope and it kills me to see her give me nothing now. And now she knows it again. I'm still the hurt one.
It's like I'm starting from the beginning again.
And again I don't want to do this anymore.
Will you recognize the pre-explotion signs the next time? If you go back and and read your post from work, it seems clear it was building. That was a signal to do some type of physical workout to offset the pent up anger.
You have got to find some kind of emergency protection plan to implement. Our beloved Coach praised cognative therapy. It may benefit you to chech it out. If we learn to think better, we will act better. As long as we continue to repeat the same thought patterns and respond in the same manner......getting the same results, we stay stuck in the same old sh't.
Thank you sandi. Yes I'm better when I work out. I haven't been doing that and I will. I will make sure my IC helps with my anger.
....
Text from her just now... "You don't deserve what i have done to you. You are a good man and my affair was the most disrespectful and hurtful thing that I could have done. You are an amazing father and deserve better. And I am terribly sorry that this happened and for hurting you. I wish I could step back in time and change things."
Again I want to answer... Come talk with me. Let's change things. Nothing to do. A good man is not enough. Anything i say is not enough and far too late. These texts from her are torture. Why send these empty words to me? Just STFU.
And here's my fear and guilt again. I could use a truth dart here. Push her back over to angry. I'm tired of this and of her.
Stay strong. Nice to get the text but actions speak louder than words. Maybe the fog is starting to clear but It's an emotional time for all so STFU and carry on with Xmas. Take care. Rd
So again a decision...
25 who has been incredible helping me see and admit my failings and my A to my W would tell me to say "so what?" and keep it moving.
Then I have this from Wonka for me to express myself bravely and authentically... "W, you've said this several times. To me, it is meaningless because if one is sincere in their apology, then effort would have been made to change the behavior that is causing damage to the family...especially to our marriage. I'm not seeing any genuine actions from you to end things with the OM completely. We are in this situation precisely because I am NOT willing to continue to live in an open marriage. You've made a choice where there's consequences. Very serious indeed. So don't talk to me like this....it's insulting."
This will send W over the edge again. Consequences. So what?
It's Christmas Eve I think. I'll give it a few minutes to decide. Then I'm thinking I'll send the text. Not sure what it will do except let her know I'm not rolling over to be a cuckold happily co-parenting our son.
So... you want to unhappily co-parent? You want to be adversaries? How would that affect your son?
This is where detachment is really really important, I think.
I think Wonka's message is awesome . Though I wonder if that last bit comes off as controlling: "don't talk to me like that"
You can't control what she says, but you can tell her that you find it insulting when she says that. A subtle difference, but maybe important in this case? I dunno. Curious what others think.
Thank you Claire for reminding me. Honestly, right now I'm empty and numb. Far from detached. Our shared calendar now says W won't pick up S11 today. She'll come late tomorrow. Time then to dust myself off.
And I haven't sent the text. I want to... but I'm not sure for the right reasons. So maybe I'll just take care of me today.
I just read Pink's last post. I want to get there... as detached and in control as she was with her H. That was a wonderful story. I want to post a wonderful story here. That is my goal. To make one wonderful story to post. Soon.
HP,
I think you've seen W go off the edge when you are firm and push back. Like Sandi said previously, your W is acting like a spoiled brat who restores to hysterics to get her way and get you to capitulate. In my mind, W needs ice cold water to be thrown to her face to shock her out of the fog with well placed truth darts.
It is up to you to send the suggested text response to her crocodile apologies for 'hurting' you. I would if I were you.
Can't wait to hear the response from your W
Response... "HP. Our marriage is over. We just need to work on how to parent S11. I am sorry but that is the reality."
Well then.
Merry Christmas.
Seesh.
What are your thoughts HP?
Ouch. I'm sure that was tough to read.
If I were you I wouldn't reply.
I hope you find some peace and joy in this holiday.
I'm very tired.
After a minute more response... "The last thing I want to do is insult or disrespect you. I really don't. By no matter what I say that is how you feel. HP you know we have been in trouble for so long. Lets try to be kind to each other as we work through seperating. It will be hard but I think once we accept the reality that we are in a different place we can begin to heal. And learn to co parent S11. I regret this has to happen at this time. But I am firm in my belief that we are no longer able to be together."
Though she's insulted and disrespected me for months.
I will try to find some peace and joy.
HP,
With all due respect to Wonka..
Texts like you sent don't work. (as her response proved) That isn't Dbusting.
Please stop doing that type of thing. It is only hurting you.
That isn't detachment. It didn't work and hasn't worked. Stop doing what doesn't work.
Even more response... "And I am sorry I hurt you whether you believe it or not."
So what.
Even more response... "And I am sorry I hurt you whether you believe it or not."
So what.
She IS sorry she is hurting you. You aren't listening...
Would you rather her say she isn't sorry you are hurting?
Very few people I know, when breaking up with someone, are not sorry they hurt you. Can't you understand that?
If you start to ever see another woman and then decide she isn't for you, and she is hurt, will you not be sorry that you are hurting her? Will you go back into the relationship if it isn't for you just because you are hurting her...
Please see the reality here and get your emotions under control. She feels pity for you. This is because you are coming across as emotionally weak. And you wonder why she isn't attracted back to you?
Please do a 180 here and get your emotions under control. You said you were going NC for 90 days and all I keep seeing is back and forth texting and relationship talk..
She's sorry. That can be true. It doesn't mean she wants back into the relationship. Texting her things to tell her that if she was truly sorry she wouldn't be doing what she is doing just don't work.. Take it for what it is.... She knows you are hurting and she feels bad for it..
HP,
I'm sorry that this is happening. Your W has heard your position and she's talking like a WAW.
After Christmas, you need to go PITCH black dark and in full LRT mode. What this entails is the following:
1) No more talks (like the latest text exchange)
2) No more responding to texts UNLESS it involves S11
3) When you have S11, W must respect your time and not blow up your phone
4) When W has S11, get out of the house and do something for you
5) Join Meet Up groups
6) Put a stop to W using S11's phone to get through to you immediately when she does it
7) Focus on logistics on S11 related matters only
8) Be cordial when responding to W's texts or emails..short and on topic
STFU on any R talks or be roped into one. Use this mantra again to W to nip it in the bud: "You know my stance/position on this matter and I'm not wavering from it at all. If you want a D, you'll need to file as I will not stand in your way."
It's time to crank your GAL activities into high gear after the holidays.
I want to add to the list:
9) Inform W that she has 30 days to find her own transportation
10) Get all of your financial ducks in a row...make sure all of your money is in your account. No more joint accounts. Time for W to put on her BGP without relying on you as a side benefit.
(((HP)))
You are an honorable man who's loved by all of us here and your S11 & father.
" 25 who has been incredible helping me see and admit my failings and my A to my W would tell me to say "so what?" and keep it moving."
Are you sure she said to tell your W "so what"? That does not sound like 25. I would bet she suggested saying it to yourself.
I have to go along with Wonka on tbis issue of her appologies. "I have heard your appologies,W, but I have yet to hear you say you intend to make ammends. Until then, it really feels too little too late".
Of course, you may not want to say anything today. Not responding to her apology says a lot.
Not a vet, but IMHO anything you do that involves your WAW taking up any time, space, energy, or room in your head is a step I the wrong direction.
Truth darts, firm boundaries, managing your tone to be friendly or distant, all of it seems designed to try to lead her through her WAW process wih the hopes of getting her to snap out of it and come back. The reason it doesn't work is 1) you can't change someone else, and 2) it keeps you attached to her to the point that you end up stumbling into R talks or arguments. Each day becomes a big battle you have to fight through, trying to do everything exactly right. I get it. I did the same thing. It did nothing positive for me.
The last few months I've been really detached. I don't worry about what she's doing or what she thinks of me. I understand that she will act with criticism, resentment, disdain, etc. I know that I've done things that caused her pain and that out M wasn't a paradise so I feel compassion for get emotions, but I also know im a great man and have no desire to be attached to this person.
As for the R, it is over. I am a single man and making the most of it. I am being a good dad, doing well in my new job, and enjoying my hobbies and friends. Personally I don't believe my WAW is going to ever open a door to me again, and I really don't know that I could ever partner again with the person she's turned out to be. But I don't worry about that anymore than I worry about whether I'd accept a role as a firefighter if Steven Spielberg wanted to cast me in some new blockbuster.
The reality is I'm a single man with a hurt, emotional, and shallow STBX that is dealing with my own issues as I move forward into my new life. Maybe ill have another R that fails. Maybe ill be single forever. Maybe ill build a great M. All way in the future. So ill just enjoy today because its nice out and I'm in a good mood.
Vets may agree or disagree. Good for them. I'm going to have lunch and watch a movie. Merry Christmas all!
HP,
Just wanted to say that I'm sorry you're W said such hurtful things, especially this time of the year. Just remember, believe nothing of what you hear an only 50% of what she does. She's talking like a WAW so nothing uncommon there, you know that. You're thread gets a lot of traffic from people who know that they're talking about so keep being that rock and inspiration for all of us. You're doing awesome and I look forward to hearing all about the cool things you and your son are doing. Hope you have a Merry Christmas!
Hello Wonka. Thank you for your help. Last night and today were very hard again and completely my fault. I admit her texts today hit me very hard and I was in very bad and shaky shape for a while. She did pick up S11 today, so she was texting all that will with my son which added to the blow. I admit I'm having a beer right now to help. I just couldn't sit with the pain right now.
I do see, now that I'm relaxed, that she followed her usual pattern of immediately lashing out hard whenever she's feeling trapped by a hard truth. Then almost immediately backing down and then apologizing. Same thing every time. So your truth dart did land. Difference today was she said our marriage is over. She has never said that. That was very hard to hear from her even though I've been saying that to myself for a while now. Almost as bad as a BD. So yes I'm not detached. I still have a long way to go there.
Now that I see the pattern, though, I see nothing has changed. I pissed her off badly and did pursue with my angry screaming at her last night. That she screamed back shows she's still hurting about all this too. That she called me crying to talk about S11's pain also shows her pain. Now her coldness this morning is also her pattern... whenever she opens her feelings too much she gets her strength back and goes cold for a while. She knows and says I don't deserve any of this treatment and I see all this bothers her though she convinces herself this is needed. I won't be weak.
So yes I will follow your steps Wonka to just finally detach. I'm starting that now as I'm not doing any holiday things with her. If S11 still wants to get her a gift, I'll make that happen for him and that's it. I see she's already texting me logistical questions about S11 like business as usual. I don't respond. That is so strange to me... that someone could be so hurtful one moment and then follow up with business texts like nothing happened. I know not to be surprised or offended but still.
Thank you Sandi. Yes, 25 told me to say "so what?" to myself whenever she texts. And yes, I think the truth dart was good but did blowback a lot of pain to me. I know, though, that it is my choice to feel hurt. I'm getting better at that. I wonder, though, if my brining up the OM again was bad... like again I'm giving him all the attention instead of W's feelings and choices. But the text is out there and now she knows again I'm not playing friends with her and why.
Hey Zeus. I do agree with you completely. I have focused a lot on my W and affecting her as she is constantly looking to manipulate my emotions and my desire to help her. It is time to do much more of what you say... to GAL and build my life. Admittedly, outside of getting to the condo, I have not done GAL since then. My W is also hurt, emotional, and yes I can see shallow and thoughtless. Dealing with her and these weekly big battles like this... I am far far far from happy. I have not felt happy for a while now. I want to get to where you are. For me, emotional as I'm finding I am, it will take work and persistence from me. I'll get there.
Thank you all again. The past 24 hours have been awful. Again that was completely under my control. If I just refuse to answer the phone, or just stay calm when I do, then all this doesn't happen.
I'm feeling much better now.
I'll keep going.
Onwards.
HP,
Just wanted to say that I'm sorry you're W said such hurtful things, especially this time of the year. Just remember, believe nothing of what you hear an only 50% of what she does. She's talking like a WAW so nothing uncommon there, you know that. You're thread gets a lot of traffic from people who know that they're talking about so keep being that rock and inspiration for all of us. You're doing awesome and I look forward to hearing all about the cool things you and your son are doing. Hope you have a Merry Christmas!
Hello TLEE86. Thank you for your support. I really appreciate you and your post today. I am humbled that you say I'm an inspiration and I'm doing awesome. I know how hard all this must be on you... I read your posts and you make me feel glad and hopeful when I see you still talking friendly with your W. Keep at it. I hope things get better for you both soon and that you find happiness this season. Merry Christmas to you too.
HP,
I get that this is very painful...especially with Christmas festivities.
I see she's already texting me logistical questions about S11 like business as usual. I don't respond. That is so strange to me... that someone could be so hurtful one moment and then follow up with business texts like nothing happened. I know not to be surprised or offended but still.
You cannot afford to ignore texts that pertain to logistics relating to S11 because it will most certainly elicit a very angry stream of texts from W. Remember this is a pattern that has happened over and over when you are being petulant in ignoring them. Break it, dude. I'd suggest that you do communicate to W on logistics in a business like manner. You CAN do this.
Do you have plans tonight and tomorrow?
Hang in there HP,
The holidays can be emotional. You'll make it.
Well this was day #11. I feel stress and twitching around my eyes. A bit of a headache. I'm not fighting it, though.
Today, though very hard, could have still been a good day somehow. I'm in the thick of the forest so I likely can't see how. I'm working on faith now.
In my life, I've been very lucky. Good things have come my way completely out of the blue. So I got complacent... sleep walking through my life for many years. Now I'm fully awake. Yes it's extremely painful... but so much good has happened so far. So, I'm believing something good happened b/c of my experience today. If not for me... then for someone else.
Done right... this sitch is likely the best thing that has ever happened to me.
...
Now, something else has changed. S11 wants to spend the entire Christmas day with me here in the condo. I wish it was just me... maybe it is... but his HDTV and game system is here too so there you go. W, then, will apparently not see him on Christmas. She's given up her Christmas with her son.
DB coach Chuck suggested I do Christmas with my wife and S11. I didn't think I could do that then... and after the last 24 hours even less so.
But what if I did? I cringe thinking it... but what if I invited her here for the morning? My W in her A she won't give up?
I saw on NAJ's thread her W invited her to celebrate for the kids. Making it work. Good feelings. Why not?
I'm cringing even more. Why would I do this? My W is having an A.
I had an A. I know the loneliness that caused it. I told lies for it. Rationalized it. Felt joy from it. Still fondly remember it. I've even started talking with my OW again.
Am I really considering this?
I can't do this.
Oh God should I do this?
I can't do this.
HP
are you really talking to OW again? Does it bring you happiness or is it just distraction from your pain?
My WAW may spend some time with me and our kids on Christmas day. I am not sure how I feel about it but will muscle through it for the sake of our beautiful children. Gah!
My WAW invited me to spend New years Day at the Rose Bowl becuase "she scored some good tickets". Again, it's only or the kids that I am going to do this.
I too am hurting like you are HP - I really really am and hate every minute of this.
Merry Christmas my friend.
NAJ
HP,
Always do the right thing by S11. However, perhaps go to W's house so you can make an exit in, say, 2 hours. It doesn't have to be an all day event.
"Always do the right thing by S11"
^^^^^ THIS. This needs to be what guides you.
Can you be strong enough to put your hurt aside for his sake?? To show him that he does not need to be in the middle? That even though his parents have split up and hurt each other, they can still rise above it and put on a brave face to give him some happy holiday memories? What message would it send to your wife if you could do that?
Thank you NAJ and Wonka. I'm not sure if W is bringing S11 back here tonight. She might have him sleep there tonight. I'm just so tired now.
And we are so broken. To think that when BD happened, I loved my W. Yes things we're not great... I saw she was upset with taxes and money and we weren't connecting and it was not a fun sexy time... but I had no doubts about my W. We were a team living a life and we were going to keep going. The person I was then was totally blindsided.
Now in hindsight I can clearly see signs of this horrible sitch months even years ago. I'm feeling that pain now. My moods swing badly still. I'll get up and do "as if" happy exercises. See... I just forced a smile and feel a little better. It's going to be January 30th when I can see a doctor for antidepressants so I'll be forcing smiles for a while.
I know now I'm fighting for the rest of my life... to not be defeated by all this. To live a better life as a better man. To really give up on my M and my R with my W. To stop caring what my W thinks of me. To design and live a warm, happy, simple life for me... not one I think she would want.
I know Wonka your to-do list is my best hope there... but it will take a lot of time. More than a year. And I'm to do it dealing with my W everyday. A real test of patience and stamina.
I've pushed my W and made her even more angry with me. She's never been this openly heartless to me and she started with no problem doing it from the BD. She's had years then to get like this towards me. I'm still catching up.
Before all this happened, I had a vision statement that I would read every morning after my run. It was the day I bought my W her dream house. S11 would run ahead of me and my W. My W would hold my hand. She would look at me. She looked at me with pride with tears in her eyes. I read and dreamed that vision everyday for months.
After BD, my W was crying and saying... "If I never brought up our M problems, you'd be out running right now instead of talking to me!" I ran instead of paying attention to her thinking the whole time I was paying attention to her. She may never know that. Never know about my mom and dad. Never know all the feelings I'm going through right now. I've shared so much with her over the years.
Now part of me would be happy to never see my W again.
I can't do Christmas with her tomorrow.
I don't know how we heal.
So pitch dark LRT.
Focus on healing myself.
Focus on healing S11.
Just keep going.
"Always do the right thing by S11"
^^^^^ THIS. This needs to be what guides you.
Can you be strong enough to put your hurt aside for his sake?? To show him that he does not need to be in the middle? That even though his parents have split up and hurt each other, they can still rise above it and put on a brave face to give him some happy holiday memories? What message would it send to your wife if you could do that?
HP, my H is still in his A. And we are spending Christmas together, church and dinner, and then opening presents in the morning. I'm not holding that up as an example of how you should do it, but I'm just saying that yes you can set your hurt aside for a few hours and make a good memory for your kid. It's possible.
I really like Wonka's plan that you go to W's. That way you have an exit strategy if it gets to be too much.
"Always do the right thing by S11"
^^^^^ THIS. This needs to be what guides you.
Can you be strong enough to put your hurt aside for his sake?? To show him that he does not need to be in the middle? That even though his parents have split up and hurt each other, they can still rise above it and put on a brave face to give him some happy holiday memories? What message would it send to your wife if you could do that?
Hello Claire. Thank you for the push. It would be strong to do that... just think of S11 and do Christmas with her. Right now I don't want to Claire. Right now, I can't get past what she's done the past few months. The way she looked at me and smiled at me friendly when I knew nothing. She slept in my bed with me. Gave me hope with promises of MC and seeing where it goes. Leaving me and S11 to spend the night with her "girlfriend."
What would it say if, after all that, after this morning, that I could be strong enough to put that aside just for S11. If I could just do it just for him... not caring about the message to my W.
I can't keep being hurt can I? I can't DB and detach and help my son and one day years from now be attractive to my W or anyone other woman if I keep being hurt.
Another decision.
HP,
Your feelings are yours to own and you have every perfect right to them.
In my case, I was about 10 going 11 when my stepmother learned of my late father's OW and she initiated separation/D proceedings which were extremely painful for her. It was not too long before Christmas and I could feel the tension in the air a my father W's banned by FIL from setting a foot in their house (my grandparents). So I split Christmas between my parents and I wasn't harmed. Sure, I was sad but enjoyed gifts from both households.
Do what you feel is best for yourself. You've been through an emotional wringer. We will support whichever decision you make here, HP.
Yes, of course I agree with Wonka. Do what you feel is best. I offered a radical alternative because sometimes a moment like this is a chance to survive something you never thought you could.
H and I hosted a birthday party for our D just about 10 weeks after he walked out on me. His parents, cousins, tons of people there. I had a lot of anxiety about it, but decided to look at it as a chance to show myself, my D and my WAH that I was stronger than anyone ever thought I was.
Getting through that day so successfully was a huge boost to my confidence. I was so scared to do it, but I'm glad I went through with it.
Wishing you peace and health on this holiday and in the new year.
Thank you so much claire, wonka, and rppfl. I appreciate your comments. S11 will be back here with me tonight, so maybe I will drive by her house with S11 so he can drop off a gift for her tomorrow. I don't have one yet for her so we'll see. He wanted to get her a bath shower set so maybe something will be open tomorrow. If we do go, I'll just say hello if she says hello. We are so broken.
I was just reading Peter_v2's sitch from the beginning. He sure went through a lot for a long time. W in love with another man and going back to him a couple times at least. Terrible arguments. Living apart. I have a lot of that in my sitch... except I'm not spending time with my W at this point where Peter did through their business.
Still, Peter went for a year of very difficult days. Sent D in motion at the beginning. I do believe my W did take a break from her A for a week due to her behavior and her not going out like his seemed to. Some similarities. Some ways my sitch could evolve from here in the next few months.
I'm not going to hope for that or expect anything. Right now as I'm sitting here I'm still feeling a lot of pain. Real physical low throbbing pain in my skull.
I'm thankful, though, that S11 will be here with me tomorrow all day. But, my W is really giving up Christmas time with S11? After all that crying about us doing it together? She did Christmas with him tonight then.
This is straight insanity. It's stuff like that... like her saying she would let me and him move to Florida while she lives elsewhere... that scares me. She is way way gone from the person I know... or the person she's been pretending to be for so long.
So yes I was looking at Peter's thread for some way my sitch can turn positive. Months to go.
Keep going.
Yes, tomorrow, next month aren't going to be like today. It's probably human nature to forget it but look at how much your life has changed in the last month, the last four months.
I say this to you because I need to say it to myself. But let's not forget it.
You're a good and positive man Mozza. Yes my life has certainly changed and I'm sure all this will be good for me one day. But tonight I don't see hope for my W.
It's not just that I don't like her right now (I just saw her looking tired and miserable fake happiness and was able to just say hello and look at her eyes for 30 seconds), but she has shown herself to be capable of serious cruelty and infantile craziness. I seriously would have never imagined her acting like this.
I'm not at all sure I want this person back in my bed and future right now. I can do endlessly better than the person she is now. Once I really get past the hurt of the betrayal and humiliation she's trying to heap on me daily... once I'm really thinking clearly... then we'll see if this goes past 6 months.
I am inspired by Peter's sitch and other's here. It seems, though, those Hs held on to some love for their W even in the tough parts. But for me... my W, she's not beautiful right now. Not to me at least right now. Not at all attractive right now. I've seen sides of her I do not want to see ever again. Not sure it's worth the risk to work with her now. She looks bad. She behaves worse. Her fake smiles and forced crying are ugly.
Hmm... just writing that makes the pain go away a little. Maybe I'll start making lists of all the things I didn't and now really don't like about my W. To remember why I imagined a life away from her. Why she's not in my dreams. What I found irritating about her on a daily basis. I know I can be better and I will get better. But will she? She asked me last night... "Why would you want me?" Why would I want you?
Good question.
HP! Sorry you are having a really tough time right now. A few things:
1. Yay! Let's go have a drink and talk about crazy WAS
2. don't beat yourself up about your emotional R talk, we've all been there. Just keep going forward. Wonka's advice for steps is perfect.
3. As you know by now, don't listen to what your W says about being DONE, OVER etc. Whatever! Don't listen at all.
4. Do listen a bit to the part where she says you aren't validating her feelings. Don't worry about it now, just file it away for the future in case she starts to act like a normal human and you can actually have a normal interaction with her.
5. you are so amazing HP, you are doing so well. Go back to focusing on your son, you and your goals and dreams that have nothing to do with W. Let her make crazy all by herself.
Oh HP I feel your pain and struggle and I understand. It will get better the more you can take the focus off of her. I know it is so hard.
Listen, she says it is over.. don't listen to her but I say if she wants it to be over, let her experience what that is like. Go read Wonka's list and start applying those things. Detach. Don't engage in her bs. Don't try to make things right or manipulate her. Let her swing in the wind by herself. I've recently done this in my situation and it has been SO HELPFUL!!!!!!
I think it also might help you to read some stories from the MLC area. I don't know if your W is having anything like an MLC but she is acting so crazy. I think the stories there might help you because those poor LBS folks have to put up with a lot of crazy behaviors and crazy emotional talk from the MLCers. Whoa. Talk about patience!
Good luck and I hope your Christmas with your son is beautiful and full of love. You deserve it HP! You are really great and your wife is a big fool.
Hugs, Lisa
Thank you so much for your post LisaB. You're right about not listening to her. She does say things immediately to lash out in defense and then hasn't followed through on any of them. I'm the only one who follows through here. She even had the nerve to text and ask me if I had bought gifts for S11 yesterday. I answered "Seriously?" She is really not thinking and saying whatever pops into her head. I will act as if it doesn't matter.
...
S11 is having a great Christmas he says. He said he was worried how it would turn out but he got his presents so he's good. W did open presents with him last night. Today he got presents from me. He's having a great time showing me his games. We'll go out for brunch later. We're fine.
W did contact me today... my paycheck was deposited to our joint account. She texted me at 7am to let me know. I know she checks our bank account everyday by habit. Showing trustworthiness by telling me the money was there without taking any like she has before. Good, b/c I wasn't expecting the money until tomorrow. I moved it all to my private account. It is so sad that I'm looking at my W like she's a thief.
Also, she sent me an FB friend request this morning around the time S11 called her to tell her about the great gifts a gave him... including the latest expensive laptop he wanted. She un-friended me after I told her I knew about her PA, lies, stealing, and when I told her FB shows her location on the post when she posts to FB from OM house. I'm not accepting her request to be friends for the moment. She may rescind it like she did the last friend request immediately after she un-friended me. So what? I don't think I'll accept it.
I won't see her today. Saw her last night and it was not cheery. Maybe just barely polite from me. She cheerly said "Hello HP" for S11. I was businesslike. I'll get better at it.
Wow it's already been almost 3 months since BD. Most of the first 2 I was really in denial land about the depths of her A and trying to nice her back into our M. Thought I would live with her for 6 months next year and we would reconnect in that time. Never would have imagined how it turned out so far. Lose the expectations is right.
For now... My son is happy. I can make a peaceful space for myself today. The sun is out. I have 2 beers left in the fridge. S11 brought home S'mores Pop Tarts to eat. All things to feel wonderful about right now.
I really hope you find something to feel wonderful about today too.
Merry Christmas all.
HP: Glad to hear you and S11 are having a happy Christmas. You said you were going pitch black dark. I would imagine, then, it's a no-brainer to ignore a FB friend request! Hit the "ignore" button on that one, and don't think about it for another second. Seriously. She is still invading all your thoughts.
The question about gifts could have been responded to with a simple, "yes." Detachment means that crazy questions like that *Don't bug you*.
Look back at this last post. What percentage of it is about your W? You need to lower that percentage, especially if you mean to carry through with the pitch black NC. You can do it. You are staying on her roller coaster...but you don't have to.
Enjoy the rest of your day with S11.
Merry Christmas HP
My WAW came over at 9AM with some presents for kids. She went to the bathroom and like a fool I checked her texts. Full of
I love you, I miss you, Merry Christmas, How did you sleep...." and photos from her AP's kids etc... It made me sick to my stomach. Why do I torture myself with thinking about her and her drama? I am so done with this. I don't want to think about her at all.
My WAW came out of the bathroom and left in a about five minutes. So now I have my two beautiful kids with me, and I made bacon and biscuits. I am trying very hard to not crawl back in bed and sob.
Merry Christmas and pity party to me.
Thank you Claire and Jan. Claire of course you're right. I haven't yet focused enough on myself and my enjoyment and I need to. I can find something for me to really enjoy in this city. I choose to find joy here b/c I deserve joy and my son deserves a happy and secure dad and that's the reality.
Jan I understand and I really really feel your pain. Honestly I think about filing D too. In your case it's financially tough so I can see that aspect. Is there something you can do to make that better without filing?
In any case, we're both focusing on our W's and it's wrong. We both know it's wrong and we're getting better and while we're getting better the pain is too much to bear. I am dying right now for a pill that will help me feel better. These moments pass if we let them or make them.
There's so much sorrow on this board. Take a break from here for a while. Go for a walk. Rake leaves like you said. I'm right with you feeling like this will never end while knowing that it will.
I'm sorry Jan. You know everything now about AP, so don't snoop b/c you will just hurt yourself. Start being busy so you spend less time with your W. When your W comes over, make yourself scarce by being busy. You'll see your W start to follow you around when you do this. It happened to me. Then maybe you can interact in a businesslike and brief way b/c you are in control. Just know it won't make your W like you. Don't expect or even want that like I did. Success in those interactions are you seeing yourself acting how you want to act. It's for you to feel better about yourself.
This [censored]. The sooner we do things for ourselves the better.
Thanks HP
I really appreciate you responding to me. I will work on it.
My plan is to get the divorce paperwork ready and then file it when I ready (at a later date). The pain and humiliation of m WAW with another is too great to bear. I know you feel this way too.
I will hold on for a little while longer if you do too. Promise?
JAN
Jan... I can say this... no matter how I feel day to day, I've given myself 6 months to get better. At that time, July 1, I will look at my W. If she looks better, I may give it another 6 months and make occasions to connect and become friends with her again. If not, I'll continue to keep her out of my life. Either way, I will not file.
The D will help you financially... but I believe it will not help you feel better. The point is to detach. I have an IC now and the first thing I told her is I want to detach from my W. That is the mission. GAL is the way to get it done. I, like you, am having serious trouble with that. I have a lot of my own issues to get over there. I have had ZERO life of my own for years. I'm not looking forward to getting out, meeting new people, listening to their small talk, everything that goes along with that. My R made it safe for me to get lazy there and now I am paying for it. We both got to get over it.
I imagine you're very attractive just like me... so as soon as we feel comfortable in the world again, we will attract wonderful women to us. And we will have wonderful new problems... sweeter and happier and more loving problems... and all this cr*p now will be a memory. So let's just relax as much as we can now... remember to have pride in ourselves... and our Ws and their mess will simply slip right off us.
See, writing the above made me feel better. Try to write more positives... act more positive even if you're faking it. I know it helps me when I do it.
I'll just keep going with you.
I promise.
Thanks HP
I needed to hear that. Yes, I have many issues but who doesn't right? One of my goals is going to be to not think about my WS for an entire hour, then two hours, then three hours, until I can reach a day. Then hopefully I can do that more and more so I can DETACH...let her go...and give me a chance to heal.
I too have had zero life, my life was devoted to my WAW and my kids and I thought that was what a loyal spouse did. Boy am I paying the price for that now. zero friends on my own, zero abilities in cooking, zero interest in other people and their lives. You chalk it up to lazy? Hmmm... I will mull that over. Maybe you are right. I chalked it up to devotion, I can now see that lazy sounds a bit more realistic. Devotion was my own fantasy that I was projecting. Fantasy.
I pray that 2015 will be a better year for both of us. Our kids deserve the best we can give them, and the stability I know we can provide for them.
I will act more positively even though I don't feel like it. I did download the positive affirmation app like you suggested, I listen to it every day and at night. It's interesting, don't know if I am getting any more confidence yet, but it's worth a try.
Thanks for holding onto this with me.
JAN
Journaling...
Christmas 2014 is my first day of pitch black LRT with my wayward W.
I did not talk to or send her a text her today. I ignored a FB friend request from her today. I ignored her "Merry Christmas HP" text and all other texts from her today.
My son, amazingly, did not see his mom today. We were scheduled to split his time today. The change was hers. S11 and I had a great day and evening.
Now she texts and asks, on her days left with S11 this month, that she only keeps him for a few hours during the day and, at night, drops him back here with me b/c, she says, he has nothing to do there with her and she's packing up the house.
I'm may respond with "Please keep him on your nights thanks." I need to start GAL again. Or maybe I find GAL to do with S11 in the evenings b/c S11 may not want to stay with her too much.
Tonight she did not text him a good night message and it is 11:30 PM on Christmas. After I tucked him in and said our prayer for our many blessings and for his mom... I asked him if he wanted to text his mom good night. He said no. He said he is sad and upset that she didn't come to see him today. I told him how sorry I feel about that, that his mom loves him and we love her, and that his mom would want to know how he feels.
She did, though, send me a text this evening thanking me for making Christmas special for S11. She really appreciates it and all I do for our son. I said "So what?" to myself.
Don't be surprised or outraged by what she does or says.
Let it go.
Let her go.
Personally I would insist she keep him on her nights because adult GAL is important to your healing too. If your S pushes back tell him that his relationship with his mom is important regardless of what's going on in the marriage and that you want to help him protect that. If there's "not enough for him to do" as has been the case for my kids at my H's place, encourage him to think of a few things he can carry with him over there that he finds interesting.
You've been amazing. I wish I'd been more like this in the earlier days of my troubles. Happy New Year, Poirot.
I'm not exactly clearing your personal circumstances, but I don't understand why the schedules have to be so complicated. In my case, the kids alternate weeks (7 days, switching on Friday) so they get almost perfect balance between us and our negotiations are minimal. Also changes to the schedule stand out like a sore thumb.
Thank you Maybell and Mozza. It's very kind of you to say I've been amazing Maybell. I hope all this comes to a good end between me and my W b/c I certainly feel like I've taken a hard road. And yes I will insist S11 stays with her. He does take his games and is fine. Whatever her reasons for not wanting S11 to stay with her, she has to do her best. And Mozza, our schedule is simple and she made it. She keeps changing it, though, citing her not being prepared for difficulties (not having a car, no money, nothing for S11 to do with her).
....
This monring S11 and I did great GAL. We went for a hike in the woods. It was lovely and he ended up having a great time. There is a historic old house on the trail where many cats live. He loves cats and one of them, a beautiful black cat, followed us for a while. He now wants to come back often to visit the cats. Then we had a wonderful breakfast at a nearby diner. A new place for both of us and the food was excellent and cheap. It's right on the river too... so we went for a nice walk after. Later today we'll go to the movies and try the remote controlled drone I got him for Christmas. Feeling great about all that.
Did better handing trouble with W this morning too. S11 let W know yesterday he wanted to spend today with me. She wanted to pick up earlier like noon. S11 told her later like 4pm. My mistake here was not sending her a text then letting her know I preferred 4pm.
This morning, then, W calls me at 7:30. I do not answer. She sends text asking me to call about S11's pickup. I text her back after a bit... "4pm pickup. Keep S11 your nights." Then we leave for our hike.
She then starts texting and calling a lot while we're hiking. When we meet the cats, I look at my phone. She sent texts asking if she could pick S11 up earlier and if I mean I would keep S11 on her nights. So I was not clear in my communications. She then had sent a text saying she's driving over to the condo now to talk b/c I won't answer my phone.
I then wisely send her a sweet photo of S11 stroking the cat and texting we're on a walk. She calls again a little later and I ignore it. She sends a text saying "pick him up at noon." I send her a text saying... "We have movie plans. 4pm works better."
On the way back, I give my phone to S11 and ask him to call his mom. He does and joyfully tells her all about our hike and the cats. She must have then asked to speak with me b/c S11 says... "You can't speak with dad." He says that a few times then hands me the phone.
She sounds sad and apologetic. She says something about getting worried when I don't answer the phone. I am businesslike. I calmly say we have movie plans, 4 pm would be better pick-up time, that S11 should stay with her on her nights. I say, when s11 is with her, I don't call b/c I know she is a good mom and everything is OK. I would appreciate the same treatment. She said OK. I then went to cut off the call and she said she wanted to say one more thing. I listened. She said she left some very nasty VMs that of course she didn't mean and she acted horribly and was deeply embarrassed. I said I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and delete her voice mails. Dismissed her and hung up. Went to breakfast. Had a wonderful time. Did slip and mention to S11 that I love his mom but don't like her very much right now.
When we got back, slipped again and I listened to her multiple voice mails. They were horrible. She threatened a lawyer to help us figure out these scheduling issues. She screamed the doorman better let her up to the condo. She screamed she would call the police if I didn't see her. Again screaming about being an adult and answering the phone. Screaming that it was ridiculous that she has to call S11 to reach a grown man. She cursed me repeatedly... called me a mother-f*cker. Worse, said, whatever she thought in her heart about going to MC to work it out, it would never work b/c I'm an avoider. She screamed on and on about how I'm an avoider cursing me the whole time.
In her last VM, she was crying. She thanked me for sending the picture and said she was sorry for her messages but she gets extremely anxious when we don't let her know everything's OK. That not even S11 will answer his phone (he didn't have it with him). She said she didn't mean what she said and the texting was too much and please would I talk to her and it would be hard to get him around soon b/c she won't have a car and will be living with her aunts in January.
I sent her a text... "got your voice mails."
She replied. "Horrible behavior. Deeply embarrassed."
The VMs and her cursing me did hurt me but I did get over that very quickly. Did much better there.
I see I'll just have to text her sooner on my clear preferences. I see I'll have to expect her to scream and curse at me now.
HP:
She is in a wacky place, that's for sure. I'm not a vet, but there is something that is antagonistic in your communication with her. You are not treating her like a friendly co-worker. You are not treating her like a neighbor.
When my H and I communicate about our D's schedule, I almost always start off with, "Hi H."
I think you are pushing her buttons. What might happen if you said, 'S11 and I are having a great time today, and have plans this afternoon. We agreed that you'd pick up S11 at 4 pm, and I'd like to stick to that. I am busy so I can't reply more at the moment."
Then, after she picks him up, you could craft an email to address the request that you take S11 on her nights. You can reply politely, without sounding obnoxious or apologetic.
What I've tried with my H is validating, but holding firm to my needs. Something like, 'I can understand that it is tough to pack up the house and entertain S11. And I need my space and time, too. I'm sorry I can't accomodate you."
The angry, curt texts in the moment always seem to escalate things. I'm sure it's scary for your S11 to be stuck in the middle-- mom asking to talk to dad; dad refusing; S11 having to tell mom that dad refuses to talk to her. That is a terrible position to put him in, don't you think?
Take some deep breaths, find your focus. You can do this.
Getting ready for the rest of my day with S11.
One thing about the avoider comment from W... It is true that I dismissed her or got defensive in our R talks over the years. I did not fight with her or cause her to scream at me like have done now. I would prefer to handle difficulties on my own rather than get her involved b/c I didn't like to deal with her emotions. So what she said is true... I did avoid conflict in our R.
I don't know if there's anything I can do about that now in LRT. She keeps bashing on me to answer her calls and texts immediately. Keeps saying I'm not acting like and adult and other negative things which she feels resentment towards me on. I do feel like I'm letting her know what she needs to know... just on my schedule and in my way. If that's the way to do this to make my goal possible like I believe it is... then I'll keep doing what I feel is right for me and S11 and frustrating her like this. If I need to make myself more clear about communications by sending advina's script on that... then I will do so.
But, looking ant Wonka's LRT to do list, just being courteous and brief... answering in a few minutes important S11 questions would be the right thing to do. She's going to find reasons to do what she just did. Sometimes she'll thank me for being a great dad... other times she'll freak b/c no one answers her calls and the thought that we are fine and happy without her maybe hurts her. Oops mind reading.
HP- just a practical suggestion. Since no one can know what will happen in your situation - you are keeping these VMs and texts, aren't you? I would also keep a log of the times she tries you to call you , if your phone doesn't keep this for you.
You never know if some of this info could be helpful down the line.
Glad to hear you enjoying time with your son.
Thank you Claire for not giving up on me and holding me accountable. I do see your point... I can be more friendly neighborish with W. I am sending messages like she does when she is not being nice. I can always be polite and be the lighthouse. I did get S11 in the middle again by handling him my phone. I can be cordial with my W. You are right Claire.
This woman has problems.
I know it's been established before, but the mood swings are just amazing to watch. Also, the strength of her fury is completely foreign to me. My W and I never, ever called each others names. A screaming voicemail? Unheard of.
I'll agree with Claire that your communications could be better, clearer, more forthcoming. Perhaps it could help, though I doubt anything you've done justifies her behavior. By the way, don't say "works better", always use "as agreed". Remove the flexibility and yourself from the equation. You deal with the agreed schedule and so should she. It's not about being at the movies or anything, it's about agreeing to 4 pm.
Just real quick before the movie starts... W cursing me is bothering me. I know it's my guilt and I've been here before. I know there's no talking with her. I know I shouldn't feel outrage or righteousness or anything. But this is my wife. I know these are her real feelings for me she's showing now. Is there nothing I can do to not be her enemy while showing attractive strength. She says I'm a great father then has nerve to ask me if I bought gifts on Christmas Eve. She thanks me for making Christmas special for S11 then a few hours later curses me because she's anxious for S11 in my care. I'm LRT but she can't take it. She just texted me again... "can s11 bring his new computer so I can see it?" She just called me an MF. I hear about bring friendly... But is she asking for too much with all this contact? I'm just feeling wrong again. I don't want wrong. I hate that my W hates me like this. Am I wrong?
I believe that we teach people how to treat us.
There are people at whom we get upset, with some we're snappy, overly sweet, very patient, etc. It's not just about us: it's about them teaching us how to treat them. We sense that some things are not acceptable with them.
When you reward good behavior and punish bad behavior, people adapt. I think you're on the right track, HPoirot, but you need to fine tune it and by very very consistent. This adaptation comes in the larger context of 15 years of marriage so it will be very hard to re-train each other.
Ignore every inappropriate communication, but engage the good ones. Also, model good behavior: never raise your voice, curse or call her names. You'll show that you have standards ("what respectful man would accept to be called a mofo??") and that's attractive.
Do you think Dirty Harry would have listened to these voicemails? He'd have said something like "Knowing you were cursing at me, I deleted them." Try again if you want to reach me. That's strength.
Movie with S11 was good. I little too long. Had a character obsessed with gold... So much he changed and gave up is honor for it. He was strong enough in the end to break free from his "sickness" and rejoin his people. A nice dream.
...
Text from W... "HP, I said awful things to you today. Just terrible. I don't recognize the woman who behaved that way. I so sorry for speaking to you like that. I am deeply ashamed of myself. You don't deserve that from me.
I hope you can excuse my behavior. It won't happen again."
Nothing I can do. Like the character, doesn't see what she's doing. Doesn't care. Months and years of this. And she's right... I'm avoiding her with this LRT. What does she think I can face her with. More manipulation. So what?
She'll be here to get S11 acting like nothing happened. Acting like she hasn't been acting insane. Like her dream is worth all her hell.
Is there nothing I can say to her? Just another truth dart in exchange for more horrible spew?
I'll tell myself "so what?" This time and just keep going.
I do agree with her.. I don't recognize this woman either.
She just seems so unpredictable to me still.
Anyway... Back to my life.
When my H and I communicate about our D's schedule, I almost always start off with, "Hi H."
I think you are pushing her buttons. What might happen if you said, 'S11 and I are having a great time today, and have plans this afternoon. We agreed that you'd pick up S11 at 4 pm, and I'd like to stick to that. I am busy so I can't reply more at the moment."
Hello Claire,
I read your advice there and said to myself... "Yes, I can do nice. I'm a nice man. I can go back to being nice me from before and still do LRT."
So, after she picked up S11, she called. I let it go to VM. On her VM, she asked to keep S11 on his birthday... all day and night. Then I could have him for New Years Eve night.
Then, very soon after and as she's not content to wait for an answer, she sent me a text... "Can you listen to the VM I just left?"
I, of course, want to see my son on his birthday. I would also like to have new years eve so I can maybe GAL.
So I took your advice Claire and texted... "Hello W. How do you feel about me taking s11 to lunch on his birthday? Also can you please keep him New Year's Eve night? Thank you."
A big and kind 180.
Response... "Can we do lunch with him together? And yes I can do new years."
Lunch together. That would usually be an automatic no. But, now that I'm friendly HP, I sat to consider it.
A short ten minutes later I get a text... "I changed the calendar. You can do his birthday with him."
So she has given me his entire birthday with him and will keep him New Years Eve. She's going to miss his birthday now after missing Christmas with him.
Honestly, I really don't like writing so much about her. Since almost the beginning, I realized I have to write more about me and less about her. I don't let that happen by staying in her drama.
So, to stay out of her drama... I could just leave it like she wants. Let her not see her son on his birthday. Let that be acceptable in her new way of living her life. Not call her on it.
I want to say... "You're going to miss his birthday?" I want to say... "S11 didn't like that you didn't see him on Christmas."
I could invite her to lunch but I honestly don't care to sit and eat with her now. She knows that and likely that's why she offered the entire day after asking about lunch with her. On the other hand... she did call me an avoider. Doesn't matter what she thinks... she's not someone I care to see much less spend time with at the moment.
I feel like, once I get my attitude consistently here right, I will get the "as if" I'm detached look more than the "I'm too hurt and angry to look at your face" look.
So, what would James Bond do?
James Bond doesn't want the WAW as she's behaving. He ignores her asking if they can go to lunch together and doesn't offer the WAW to join him for lunch. He accepts the WAW's second offer of the entire birthday graciously with a "That would be fine WAW. Thank you." He doesn't rescue WAW from her choices. He shows S11 that he has is back.
That's it then.
I still hate this.
Let it slide, don't answer all her contacts.
If you moved forward with another person she is not number one, I suspect she's temp checking you to see if she is top of your list.
Hello Ggrass. Yes thank you for your comment. After everything horrible she's done... I find wet noodle me still likes when she sends a positive contact. That, after cursing me like a crazy person today, that she could ask to have lunch with me and S11 is still too much. I know it's for her to feel good about what's happening to S11. So I know I must ignore that for now as per LRT and Wonka's to do list.
Still... I was friendly and got 2 friendly responses. Wet noodle me loves that mess. James Bond me knows that's not at all positive in my case. My W has been just too horrible and I know that I can't give her kindness in return for her misbehavior.
She did text me again if I was OK with having S11 on his birthday. James Bond me sent an appropriate cordial response... "Yes that is fine. Thank you W." Then I went farther... "I should say... S11 didn't like to not see you on Christmas." I should have said he was sad and upset to not see her. His words.
She replies "Yes he told me. I didn't like it either." I didn't reply to fix or suggest anything. She said nothing else. I hate hate hate this. She is really lost if she is just "not liking" missing S11's Christmas and birthday and doing nothing about it.
So later, she sends me a picture of S11 in a cool cap she got for him tonight. I admit, I had a drink and felt friendly, so I soon after replied... "Nice hat. Thank you for taking care of S11 W." She replies something like... "Have a good night. Thank you for being a great dad to S11."
And I did not like that. Did not like being that friendly with this person who just a few hours ago screamed at the top of her lungs that I was a MoFo and knew she was wrong to do it. And yes I save all those VM and texts where she admits her A. This state has fault divorce after all.
I know Wonka and Sandi and Starsky have this right... while my W is so so very wayward and disrespectful and lying, I can't do nice communications like this in response to her screaming curses at all. She only gets respectful and apologizes and seems to recognize that she is now completely unrecognizable when she goes over the top angry responding to me standing my ground and calling her sh!t stink. She's not proven to be someone I should be paying any attention to beyond S11 emergencies. I will not excuse her spew this morning and will give her the chance to examine why, as she says, she "did not recognize the woman" who cursed me while I was showing my son a wonderful morning.
Anyway... I have a new GAL on Friday nights starting in January. Tango lessons. I'll send a cordial text to W tomorrow asking her politely how she feels about Friday nights with S11. I'll also schedule some weekly acting classes, indoor soccer league games, regular gym sessions, and rock climbing time with S11 next week. I will GAL for real and for me.
Hmmm... again I see my post is all about W. Admittedly, I did not go out and GAL tonight. My fault. Tomorrow night I'll take S11 bowling!
Good Lord HP. You must be a Saint. I don't know how you do it.
My hat is off to you Sir!
I am glad you were in control of your emotions, well done.
I know Wonka and Sandi and Starsky have this right... while my W is so so very wayward and disrespectful and lying, I can't do nice communications like this in response to her screaming curses at all. She only gets respectful and apologizes and seems to recognize that she is now completely unrecognizable when she goes over the top angry responding to me standing my ground and calling her sh!t stink. She's not proven to be someone I should be paying any attention to beyond S11 emergencies. I will not excuse her spew this morning and will give her the chance to examine why, as she says, she "did not recognize the woman" who cursed me while I was showing my son a wonderful morning.
Hold up a sec, HP.
I think there is a place between "wet noodle" and nasty-in-return to her spew. There was a discussion up thread about rewarding positive behavior. I think that answering friendly texts, and acknowledging her apologies is that. (I mean, sure she shouldn't go off on you...but isn't it better that she apologize than NOT??)
What if you just detached from the spew? Put on your spew jacket and remain calm and friendly in a *detached* way. I say "Hello" to my neighbors, I wish them a good day, but I don't really know anything about their lives, and vice versa. They are not my friends, but I can be friendly with them.
Don't push her buttons. (Answer questions about S11 clearly and succinctly), but ignore the misbehavior if it still happens (state your boundary clearly: "W, I will not engage in a conversation with you when you are screaming and cursing at me.") But being kind when she is also being kind, IMO, is not rewarding the bad behavior.
Just my opinion...
Hold up a sec, HP.
I think there is a place between "wet noodle" and nasty-in-return to her spew. There was a discussion up thread about rewarding positive behavior. I think that answering friendly texts, and acknowledging her apologies is that. (I mean, sure she shouldn't go off on you...but isn't it better that she apologize than NOT??)
What if you just detached from the spew? Put on your spew jacket and remain calm and friendly in a *detached* way. I say "Hello" to my neighbors, I wish them a good day, but I don't really know anything about their lives, and vice versa. They are not my friends, but I can be friendly with them.
Don't push her buttons. (Answer questions about S11 clearly and succinctly), but ignore the misbehavior if it still happens (state your boundary clearly: "W, I will not engage in a conversation with you when you are screaming and cursing at me.") But being kind when she is also being kind, IMO, is not rewarding the bad behavior.
Just my opinion...
OK Claire. I do see what you're saying. I'm just not sure. I believe in what Wonka, my IC, and others say ... "No more responding to texts UNLESS it involves S11" and "Focus on logistics on S11 related matters only." Just being cordial, prompt, and clear on communications we absolutely must have about S11. So, when she sends me a nice picture of S11 again... I won't respond.
I'm just generally not sure this morning. I'm woke up alone with the usual terrible thoughts. I'm feeling broken over a woman who has been evil to me. Had no problem screaming or coldly saying humiliating things to me then every time backing down and apologizing. Back and forth. That's not self respect. I can't go on like this.
She's not a good person and I want her completely out of my head. If I could successfully sue her for full custody of S11 and leave this city and her far behind then I would. Doing that is my fondest dream right now.
I want to dream of meeting a wonderful woman and living happily with her... but any dream of happiness and love and ML immediately brings hurts and terrible thoughts. I won't be able to really be with another woman in a good way for a very long time.
And then there was W's "You're and avoider" comment yesterday. Yes that has stuck with me... W got me again. Now I want to do something about that. Not look like a child avoiding her and her feelings. Not hiding like 25 said I am.
W said "you do not want to take this head on with me." As if I'm supposed to be standing with her dealing with her feelings everyday. She doesn't see me as strong. B/c S11 saw me cry, she says "If you're not strong enough S11 should stay with me." She sees all my actions since saying I was leaving as avoiding her. Like, if I was a man, I should have stayed in the house and just dealt with her.
I know she is manipulating me so she can feel in control b/c she doesn't. If I'm clearly weak and unhappy and childish I'm simply a "good man" and in her eyes then she can feel she's right to leave me. So, being James Bond when she tries to lash out at me from her place of fear, weakness, and anger is the thing to keep doing. Still, I let what she says get to me.
Hmm... I also see that I'm doing the same thing she's doing... trying to tear her down in my mind to lessen the pain and truth of her words on myself.
Now I'm just talking in circles again about her. No more talking.
I was reading other sitches here about good folks having good interactions... even ML with... their wayward WASs. Getting positive signs. I'm just wanting that right now. Again wanting something from her. Can't do that.
I have to learn to live without a woman again. Learn to get out of the house and do things that make me happy and stretch myself again. Learn to enjoy my work again. Learn to love myself.
Deep down I've felt down on myself for a long time now b/c I haven't taken my life to the next level. I use these wins with W to help myself feel better... more in control. If I can somehow accept all this that is happening and what she's done and who she is and that I'm not in control... then I'll simply be better... not just temporarily feel better.
I can accept all this and move on from this. When I accept it, I can simply stand in front of her and look at her more dispassionately b/c that is how I'll feel. Only then will I know that I'm leaving her behind. And then I'll be free to find someone wonderful to share a great life with.
I really want to be free of her b/c I still hurt badly. I still let her words hurt me. I still let her trying to define me hurts me.
I'm so much better than this.
Going to force myself to go for a run.
HP, you're a man after my own heart today! I feel my PMA has taken a nose dive lately. I felt I was doing so well before Xmas, but then I had the flu, and I haven't felt quite right since, and I moved into my own place and was all excited about it, but it is hard living alone again.
I haven't even had any negative interractions with H to prompt it. I think it is just depths of winter blues and the generally horrible sitch. Like you, I need to get the GAL and PMA going again, but sometimes it just feels like pushing a rock up a mountain.
We'll get there though HP - day at a time...hope you enjoyed your run ;-)
...
Text from W... "HP, I said awful things to you today. Just terrible. I don't recognize the woman who behaved that way. I so sorry for speaking to you like that. I am deeply ashamed of myself. You don't deserve that from me.
I hope you can excuse my behavior. It won't happen again."
Is there nothing I can say to her? Just another truth dart in exchange for more horrible spew?
Yes, I would. Something like "(Wife), you have said this several times now. As we both teach (S11), talk is cheap. Actions are what count, and you keep repeating these actions over and over. If you are truly sorry, that won't happen again. That CAN'T keep happening again and again. "
HP...you are AMAZING! You are really doing great dealing with your S and our W. You are a real inspiration. Thanks for that!
HP, you're a man after my own heart today! I feel my PMA has taken a nose dive lately. I felt I was doing so well before Xmas, but then I had the flu, and I haven't felt quite right since, and I moved into my own place and was all excited about it, but it is hard living alone again.
I haven't even had any negative interractions with H to prompt it. I think it is just depths of winter blues and the generally horrible sitch. Like you, I need to get the GAL and PMA going again, but sometimes it just feels like pushing a rock up a mountain.
We'll get there though HP - day at a time...hope you enjoyed your run ;-)
Hello Toots. Thank you so much for your post. Yes all this is so horrible but the good things coming from this cannot be denied... most especially connecting with good people like you. You deserve better and I know you can get your PMA soaring again soon.
About living alone... I know what you mean. If this was just a separation then this could more easily be fun. Just go explore life. It, unfortunately, isn't that easy for us but we can do it.
For example... I did go for my run today thank you. It was my first one since all this began. I used to run 7-10 miles almost everyday and loved it for stress relief. Today I just ran and, at first, hated it. Didn't want to do it. Usual terrible thoughts in my head. A different and lonely route than my usual. No attractive women runners around like I'm used to. Maybe did 3 miles. At the end I had a sweat going and felt a little better. But I did it and now I can keep going. A little better everyday. Baby steps.
Tomorrow morning I'll run in the woods with my son. Go find those cats. Whatever it takes to feel better.
Just keep going.
I'm with you Toots.
We will make it.
HP
This spew stuff isn't easy. I know I get a lot of it. Unfortunately it isn't always about teaching someone how to behave towards you.
It could be that W is drinking or losing control through other means, so care in watching for that.
Please ensure that you keep a sample of the spew, especially voicemails and over time to establish a pattern. My L was astounded at my recordings of H abuse and this may be important when your sitch is reviewed. This is precautionary for you and I hope that you may not need it, but it is good if you have this. You can download it as MP3 and provide to L if like me you don't want this in your possession.
No matter what your needs then S cannot be let with an abusive mother. Your close relationship with S is very strong so you can judge if he is at risk.
It is truly awful to be the subject of this but I believe it is occurring because you are getting stronger and stronger. Take the high road and be civil and overly polite but as Starsky says enforce boundaries.
I find this comes in waves and usually matches H drinking patterns. I will not be abused and my boundary is "when you speak to me in this way H, then I donot want to connect or communicate with you and if you Swear/abuse me then I will hang up the phone/walk out of the room/ go elsewhere".
Your boundary will be different of course.
HP you are doing really well indeed.
Rest and GAL
Vanilla
Journaling....
This evening was good and bad with S11...
Both good and bad was today I did not hear from W at all. She dropped S11 off at the condo building and left. Did not call me... did not text. Today is the first time since this started she has done that. It's what I want so that's good. It's what I don't want so that's bad. It's what I have to accept if I'm to move on. I want a better life and the person she is now is not a part of that. Still... well you know.
Really bad was S11's mood. I admit I did not take S11 out to GAL tonight. I surrendered to sadness and I slept most of the afternoon to avoid it. S11 played his video games. Then he came to me very sad. We sat together and I held him. Told him we would be fine. Got him busy cleaning the condo with him. It helped my mood too. I see I have to keep PMA for him too.
Later, though, I came into his room and didn't see him. I called for him and he answered. He was under the bed. I asked him what he was doing. He said he wanted to be alone. He was so sad. I wanted to cry. I cheered up, got him out, kept him busy, warmed his dinner and we watched a funny movie together. Wrestled with him and talked with him. Assured him that it's me and him and we;ll be OK and happy. I won't leave him. Now he's cheery again.
I felt hurt though to see him like this. Very badly. I encouraged him again to tell his mom how he's feeling like he tells me. She apparently tells him maybe we'll get back together. She didn't tell him she would not see him on his birthday. I don't wan to believe it, but she shows on some level she is done with both of us. I must protect him from that.
At the same time... she should know from him the damage she's causing him. On the other hand... a part of me wants him to detach from his mom like I am working to. She's acting like a dangerously damaged person. I'm saving every screaming VM and text Vanilla. I hate this.
Tonight I'm encouraging S11 to journal his feelings. He's a creative boy so hopefully it helps him and helps me understand his feelings. I've asked him to draw or write using his new computer. I love him very much.
On another note, I see my doctor on Monday for antidepressants. I'm looking forward to it b/c I'm still not consistently strong mentally. Today was tough emotionally and I slept this afternoon and admittedly drank tonight to cope. I know the best thing to do is to do something interesting. W got S11 a model for Christmas so this week I will help him build it.
Just keep going.
You inspired me again HP! Took S4 on a long hike in the woods today, it was awesome. Gave him my SLR camera for the first time, he couldn't put it down.
Hello Dawn and Vanilla. Just wanted to say thank you for your support. It is wonderful to hear you say I'm doing a good job with handling all this. It's b/c often I don't feel that way. It's interesting how you can look at another sitch and it all makes sense while in your own sitch you may feel lost. I know I do.
I do feel like I'm handling the day to day ok enough. As I did not hear from her at all today for the first time, I'm expecting now I'll hear from W much less if at all since I made it clear I don't appreciate her panic angry calls. That will eliminate my tension with her contacts. We'll see how that goes.
I'm still down on my R with W though. Despite S11's pain and my feeling that me and W have a bond... she seems very invested in the painful path she's on now and very angry with me and surprisingly not seeing S11 on Christmas and his birthday. Nothing I can do there though I still feel pain about that. Just have to do better finding joy in the here and now and cut who she is now from my life. I can do that.
Tomorrow with S11 going for a hike, breakfast at the dinner, and maybe a visit to the rack climbing gym. Day #14 of NC with W. Maybe day #2 of zero contact with W.
Just keep going.
HP
Allow S his own way with W.
S is eleven, you will be adding extra stress by encouraging him to expose his feelings to W. He trusts you, he talks to you. W is wayward, inconsistent and has been less than truthful. Would you as S really want to be open to W?
S is very brave to talk to HP about all of this, and he knows you are proud of him?
Let S work his way with W, it will be as it will be. If S is in any stress he will tell you, listen validate hug and love.
Just validate his feelings, don't acknowledge a thing W says to him, just note it as said and you are sure she loves him.
Boundaries on the care of S are yours to address with W, but not S feelings unless he agrees. s should always know when you have discussed his sitch with W and the result (as far as you can). Schedules are adult stuff but S does have some options too. As many as you can make, a walk or a film? pizza or curry? A hug or a fight? Blue or black pjs? A sleepover or a snooze fest?
Oh and a GAL schedule please!
HP it may not feel like you are doing well to you, but I really see this differently.
Vast changes in HP and so much anger replaced with love. It brims over, the sad times are part of that too but they grow us as loving adults.
Better days each day
Vanilla
Thank you Vanilla. I struggle with W not knowing or seemingly ignoring S11's feelings.
Before S11 was really W's everything. She tried hard to be a great mom... read all kinds of books on ADD... Was the lead in parent programs at his school... drove him everywhere... cried a lot over him. I did see how she got buried under all that, wanted more help on the hard stuff from me, and felt not at all like a woman dealing with it all. She would say now and then that she was not a good mom.
Now she's not interested to do what's very best for him... just whatever will work so she can do what she's doing.
She has not contacted him since she dropped him off yesterday afternoon. Not even her usual good morning text. And S11 did not want to call her last night when I asked him to. I guess I should just let that continue.
I wanted this... to not hear from her at all... and now it's here. It's the way I get better and maybe the way S11 gets better too.
Today we went for a hike in the woods. Saw the cats which he really loves.
I had a real panic moment, though, when I lost sight of him and he didn't respond to my yelling his name. We we're all alone in the woods... and for a few seconds I really thought he had been taken. I was running and yelling his name. He had gone off to find the cat he really likes. He didn't think to call back to me. Very very scary for me. That would have been too much.
This afternoon I thought we might go bowling... then go by the old house to do some packing. W may be there. If she is, it would be a good time to practice acting "as if" she's a neighbor that I don't really know. We'll see.
Onward.
W is lost to herself. I guess you will never fully know her feelings or views as those are hers.
At the moment her crazies are not disrupting your life or S11. A notional text from s11 will suffice, night mum, morning mum. This is possible, rather than calls and sent as part of prayers. Normalises and pattern builds for an ADD.
I well understand the panic of the potential lost child, fills the soul with dread for a short while.
I trust the alcohol is gone now that Xmas is over. HP needs some adult GAL soon. What plans for this HP?
How is your loving Dad?
Vanilla
Hello Vanilla. Your idea is a good one... just ask S11 to send a short message in the morning and at night. I do ask him... and he'll say he doesn't want to. W did send him a "how're you doing?" text late morning. He would have seen it when he picked up his phone but I don't think he responded. I don't want to push or police him on that. At the same time, my W is sensitive as you know. She's already talked like I'm trying to take her son.
I don't know that I should be protecting her relationship with S11 when that's her job now. When S11 is away... I'll text and call him multiple times until he answers. Text him for a while. Tell him I miss him. I'm protecting my relationship with him.
And yes I'm down to a sip of alcohol. I did want to get more today... almost did. I was at a traffic light with S11 just now. I was really hurting again at the time. Take a left... go home. Right... bottle of rum. I had decided to get rum. Waiting for the light to turn... I looked at him. Told him... "let's go home." Went left.
I'll just eat a lot of cookies tonight instead.
...
I have not heard from W today and I don't expect to. I did not go by the old home tonight.
I don't know how to get to talking with her again from here. We've deteriorated so much from when we were sleeping in the same bed. Even after I confronted her on her PA and she stopped going out... I could still be around her.
I see that her standing aside and letting me leave with S11 was what angered me. After all the crying and screaming about not leaving... not disrupting S11's life... not ruining Christmas... not ruining his birthday... she let all those things happen. She could have spent time with him on Christmas and chose not to. Then just said "she didn't like it."
That and her crazed angry screaming. I don't know how I can sit with her, feel warmth for her, and validate her feelings like I did at the beginning of this.
But like a wet noodle I missed her for a little while today. Wondered what she was doing. Admit I thought about going by the old house to see her... if she was even there. Wanted to talk with her. Feared she will not miss me and is not bothered missing all this time with us.
I'm happy tomorrow I'll see my doctor about antidepressants b/c I need help.
But what really helped was the recognition that I can only grow as a man a fool would leave. I have a lot more work to do there and can only get to it. There's nothing else to do. She won't text anything like "let's talk" or "I miss us." I won't reach out to her. I'll leave her alone.
Last R talk I did try to control her and tell her what to think like she pointed out so I have set myself way back. She knows again I still want our M. I hope that my GALing and getting stronger will somehow turn that around. That I can finally look at her without anger and judgement b/c I'm really detached from her and her actions.
I'm afraid I've lost my W and my M, though. I know I'll be fine... certainly better than I was in our M. But I would like my W with me in my new life.
Now I'm off to play with my son and his new toy drone.
Just keep going.
Just some thoughts. Clearly I need to GAL b/c I'm here too often...
Just cooked my first meal for S11 and myself here in the condo. Something simple... pasta and meat sauce... just to get myself moving in the kitchen again. S11 was excited to get my cooking tonight. It was just OK in my opinion.
In my old life, I did much of the cooking. I taught W how to cook. She's still not very good. She always said she loved my cooking and really seemed to appreciate it. I did love that she loved my cooking. I would like us to get back together someday so I can do more than cook for her.
So I'm thinking of the 180s I need to do for myself... to be a man a fool would leave.
The main things, then, are being more emotionally available, less self centered, more empathic, more supportive, and more courageous in the face of my Ws hard and sad emotions. My W wants to be seen and heard and valued. My W wants someone she can feel proud of... so someone who is happy with and proud of himself. Someone not angry, sad, introverted. Someone attractive.
I see how I haven't been those things for years.
For myself, I've wanted to be that person but never got past my sadness and need for W's support to do enough to get there.
So... plans to get there...
1. Be a great dad to S11
2. Continue with IC 2x per week to grow my inner strength and happiness.
3. Listen to my W if she talks about her hard truths about our M
4. Get out of the house on Fridays to do Tango class
5. Sign up for the acting class and take it.
6. Restart my side business and make it work everyday
7. Take interest in my job and focus on it 7 hours a day
8. Reconsidered the gym... may join a Crossfit gym to take the guesswork out
9. Restart my volunteering with teaching young people how to program computers
10. Take at least 3 trips this year.
11. Buy new clothes
12. Buy a Cadillac
13. Maybe buy a nice little home near my son's school.
This week for GAL I have my son's birthday and new year's eve. I have no plans for NYE. I don't want to go anywhere. I don't have any friends here to go with. I don't want to go anyplace by myself. I don't even want to think about it now.
Feeling a little low PMA now. I see this NC is going to be hard for me... at least at first.
So yes... I want to be in the company of a beautiful woman now. Like tonight. I see that I have a need for someone to see and want me... like my W shows she does so badly now. I don't like or want to be alone. So yes clearly I'm very needy and have been in my M. So has my W and neither of us gave the other what was needed. My IC said I should read up on co-dependency. I guess that's what this is that I'm feeling now. It would probably be a bad idea for me to go out on my own NYE.
Wow... I really want to call my W. So stupid.
Nothing to do about it.
Just keep going.
I am here HP, reading your texts and validating with you. Any woman would be lucky to have a husband such as you. Don't forget that. Maybe your current wife doesn't get it, but lots of other women will. Don't ever doubt that.
Thank you Jan. I will believe you. I do think I will be a good catch. Like you, though, I won't trust again like I did before all this. Never be this vulnerable with another person ever again. I don't believe I'll ever get married again either.
HA... text from W... "All is well?" She won't go days without hearing something from S11 I guess. Yet she'll miss his birthday. I don't understand this.
So then I make sure get S11 then so say good night and good morning. He chooses, though, to not answer her texts or calls. Torn on this one. I should just tell her S11 sometimes doesn't answer her and let her deal with it.
Another thing... I've started watching Joel Osteen on TV. He's talking about letting go and moving forward. I'm not religious... but I like and recommend him. "You may have had an unfair past... but you don't have to have an unfair future. Move forward." Good stuff.
The main things, then, are being more emotionally available, less self centered, more empathic, more supportive, and more courageous in the face of my Ws hard and sad emotions. My W wants to be seen and heard and valued. My W wants someone she can feel proud of... so someone who is happy with and proud of himself. Someone not angry, sad, introverted. Someone attractive.
I see how I haven't been those things for years.
HP, this is awesome that you have continued to focus on these things. You're last line, "someone attractive" hit it on the head. It is great to identify things that you started slacking in, and I know this isn't the first time you've reached these conclusions. But it is always good to continue to reinforce what you could have done better, and what you failed in, because as we both know, at the end of the day, the only person we can control is ourselves.
So... plans to get there...
1. Be a great dad to S11
2. Continue with IC 2x per week to grow my inner strength and happiness.
3. Listen to my W if she talks about her hard truths about our M
4. Get out of the house on Fridays to do Tango class
5. Sign up for the acting class and take it.
6. Restart my side business and make it work everyday
7. Take interest in my job and focus on it 7 hours a day
8. Reconsidered the gym... may join a Crossfit gym to take the guesswork out
9. Restart my volunteering with teaching young people how to program computers
10. Take at least 3 trips this year.
11. Buy new clothes
12. Buy a Cadillac
13. Maybe buy a nice little home near my son's school.
Glad you have a plan and a course of action to get to where you want to be. Sounds like you have a lot of plans to GAL for both yourself and with S11. Also sounds like its very broad, focusing on you by doing acting classes/new clothes/gym, and also selflessness by volunteering. This will make you a better person, a much more well-rounded person, the HP that you were and can become again. Side note, cross fit would be great. I don't want to be "that guy" to advertise CF but it will quickly give you a group of people that you can bond with, that its not just you working out by yourself in a gym. It will help you meet new people, new friends.
Wow... I really want to call my W. So stupid.
This isn't stupid HP. This is normal. We all have the urge to text or call W at random times throughout the day. Sometimes we can, sometimes we cant, depends on where relationship is with W. For you, if you are truly focusing on you and doing NC, then yes, probably not a good idea to call W. But like so many people have said over and over, I would also encourage that when you do have contact with W, you are friendlier, not so short or borderline antagonistic. Be that friendly neighbor.
Just my thoughts
Right on the Joel Osteen. He's now on my SIRRIUS radio and he's amazing. Very powerful stuff about getting back up and not letting life's sour moments/people define us. God has better things in our future.
I remember he once said that this momentary displeasure is preparing us for a greater destiny. That really resonated with me and gave me hope.
Wow... I was feeling pretty good just a little while ago. Now not great.
Tonight I had S11 text his mom good night. He didn't really want to but I made him this time. She then called and spoke with him for a minute. Don't know what was said... but I didn't like that it was so short. It shouldn't matter but my PMA just went straight down seeing that. I start thinking about what she's doing and that's bad for me.
I can't keep doing this to myself. I really just have to leave her behind b/c she is gone. Getting into this space makes me want to file right now b/c this person just doesn't deserve us. I want to stop worrying about my M tonight and tomorrow it will be there again in the morning. Now the tension and headache comes back. I hate this.
Olsteen was saying you wake up in the morning and you forgive the people you feel wronged you. That's the way to do this. I understand what she went through, understand the feelings that lead her here, understand wanting a new life. But I'm not yet forgiving her for taking it this far... for exploding all of our pain like this and in the worst way possible for us. I'm blaming her for my pain and that is keeping me here in this pain. I'm still giving her control over me.
I'm remembering what 25 said and what everyone says... this is her journey and I can have faith she will end up in a good place as a better person on the other side. Maybe even find her way back to us and to me. I took the same journey and came back. But that's not up to me... so I let her go and find my way to a better life for me. I hear this everyday, give other people the same advice, and still I make it hard on myself. I see staying up late and on this computer makes it harder to keep these feelings away.
So I'm off to sleeping pills and then sleep.
Tomorrow morning I will at least act as if I forgive my W and myself for everything.
Then just keep going.
WRT the length of the phone call... I get being frustrated at the WAS's stellar parenting, but... Tonight I called my kids while they were at H's house. They had nothing to say, so I told them I loved them and wanted them to know it, and then I let them go back to what they were doing. Just making a small effort is important. As much as your S is hurting right now, it's not in his interests to drag out connection with his mom beyond the minimum he's willing to make. It highlights how abnormal things are, and makes him feel even less in control.
I'd like to suggest you make a deal with him about his minimum quota of mom-contact, give him power to control it within that limit, and then release your expectations beyond that. Just monitor to make sure he's doing the minimum agreed on -- maybe even talk about it in adult terms, as the importance of tending to his relationships and taking responsibility for his share -- and then carry on with your life.
You've taken on a lot of change in a short amount of time. But I'm concerned about the amount of self-medicating you report. What kind of support are you getting for that?
Georgiabelle used to always tell me. You can't make your SO be a parent. That's their job. I trust me. So much of what you write resonates with me. My H was so far off the deep end and I hated watching my boys suffer as a result of it. But if there is any advice I can give it is this ... My boys struggled more when I struggled. No matter their age, children are intelligent and really feed off of our behavior. Once I let what GB was telling me sink in I realized hey H isn't going to call them at night (he actually stopped calling/texting completely and would be out of town doing things we used to all do together) I figured I'm not even going to think about it and rather than wait around or hope he calls let's stay busy. We got into a routine and sad to say but the boys just got used to not talking to H. Once he was released from the aliens he tried to just jump back into dad of the year. It definitely took the boys some getting used to. Just be there for your S. Maybe he will benefit from counseling. I found with my oldest I let him know I was here if he ever wanted to talk and we had as open a relationship in regards to H and I as it was appropriate for a 6 year old to know (which wasn't terribly much)
In regards to the nasty messages and calls, I got those too. All the time. You've received some great advice. I always thought - the behavior you accept is the treatment you deserve. It sounds harsh but we can set our own boundaries. You just need to figure out what yours are. It sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on that.
Most importantly. Remember to be human.. Take time for yourself.
HPoirot, start by forgiving yourself. Looks like from what I have read, you've turned things around. Take pride in that and understand you did your bit.
Hope to hear how you are doing soon.