Well the last thread locked, link to it here
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2517061#Post2517061 edited higlights of my situation
we've been together 6 years and my wife has been unhappy for 3.5 of those since my D3 was born. At the beginning of september 2014 she said she wanted to end our relationship as she didnt love me any more.
queue lots of begging, pleading, crying and general neediness from me. As well as occassional bouts of anger and 'you're making a mistake'. My wife has been the queen of detachment and has shown no signs of any upset or doubt regarding the split - her attitude toward me is mostly avoidant and dismissive.
I subsequently found out that she was infatuated with a man at the office and decided to pursue a relationship with him. to quote a message from my W to a friend 'I had to leave him because i know i would have cheated'
After fits and starts she is now in a relationship with the man from work (OM1) and by all accounts they are very happy.
assuming all the legal paperwork goes through she will be moving out of our house in mid january 2015.
My W's stated big issues in our marriage:
- She doesnt trust me and she doesnt feel like i trust her
- I've let her down to often
- Im always too negative
- I make horrible sarcastic comments
- I'm attritional when i argue
I've documented at length the issues that i need to address about me (what the rebuild needs to cover) including a giant post in my previous thread
My major DB issues are
Detaching so that i'm not affected by her so much
keeping my PMA
STFU - as i let my emotions do too much talking
Jim just my .002 but I think that once your w has moved you can start to detatch and move forward, you know I fought the concept of moving but my attitude has improved so much since I've moved despite the issues there are still to face.
edz, mate the difference in the tone of your posts is unbelievable you are so much more positive since you moved that the turn around is inspiring and real cause for optimism.
its a real pleasure to see.
Thanks Jim, still a long road ahead but I'm in motion.,
So i got home late this evening and my W asked about the agreement as she hadnt seen the email before she left work. (she was still up unusually and had had a few G&Ts)
I said there were some things i wasnt happy with and then corrected myself to say that i was uncomfortable with. She wanted to discuss it - I asked her to wait a couple of minutes (while i went upstairs and got my game face on)
so we discussed my concerns as laid out in early posts. I stayed very calm, quite cool and stood leaning back on the kitchen counter with wide and open body language. What i will say is that i dont think i did any validation during this it was quite confrontational but at the same time quite business like.
A couple of times I felt myself starting to bite, but i caught it and had this stock phrase in my head to stop me getting drawn into an arguement
'have a look at the draft, we can send it back and forth as many times as we need to get something we are both comfortable with'
I must have said this 30 times during the conversation.
A lot of the time she kept talking about the process, and thats how the process works. particularly if i said something she disagreed with she would say thats not what her solicitor says, or thats not how the process works. she also went to great lengths to tell me how reasonable she is being.
She was very resistent to a couple of things
- anything that seemed like me taking more control of things (moving direct debits to my account, taking my name off the joint account)
- anything that affected her planned timeline
- things that attempt to resolve matter prior to formal divorce proceedings. she seemed determined that finances will stay on the table after I've given her a big wadge of cash.
At the end of the conversation we got stuck in a loop
W: well it has to be signed so i can move and it has to be reasonable, i'm not signing anything thats not reasonable (variations on this including odd mention of solicitors)
M: have a look at the draft, we can send it back and forth as many times as we need to get something we are both comfortable with
we must have gone round this loop at least 10 times. before eventually she said that she would look at the draft and get back to me, and then thanked me for the 'prompt feedback.'
So all in all i feel like it went pretty well considering how unpleasant a topic it is. (I'm sure someone will tell me i've got that wrong). I'm sure it will be twisted to fit whatever narrative she wants but i think it was ok. I didnt agree to anything or back down on any of my concerns.
I will say that there is a enormous current of mistrust between the two of us, its really disconcerting.
Just read your thread Jim. How long again do you still life under the same roof with her since BD and the day you found out about her affair?
This is the thing I'm very afraid of not being able to move out any time soon. We just can't afford it at all, but living in the same place is so hard. If you're actually managing this well I give you a lot of respect for that. I don't know if I could deal with the fact hee having an affair and I live in the sse place
BD was 7 sept 14 and I found out about the affair late september (I think it was the day after my birthday). Its been on and off in that time and she has pursued other men as OM1 wasnt interested but she was obviously still pursuing him - I could tell her diary for the day at work but what she was wearing in the morning.
Now the affair is more of a relationship rather than pursuit its got a lot harder because i can see the positive impact it has on her (shes glowing) and she has become a lot more antagonistic toward me and about being in this house - which in part is likely to do with the limitation that puts on the relationship.
She still denies it which i suppose is in someway a postive because at least she doesnt rub it in my face deliberately - instead its the dishonesty that i have to bite my tongue about
Up until this morning i was pretending i dont know about it, but i had a backslide this morning where i made a comment about it (while she was protesting her honesty and reasonableness)
reasonable has come up a lot today - I'm going to suggest its because she thinks im being unreasonable
Jim,
The next time W throws out the "being reasonable" comment, it would do you good to comment that it is reasonable for two separate individuals to have their viewpoints on some matter. She shouldn't chastise you for seeing or thinking differently.
I find it interesting that W threw out "you're controlling" comment. This is the typical push back from WAW to get you to back off on something that she knows is right. I saw the same exact behaviors from HP's W and other WAWs. It I their way of asserting control of the situation and making sure things are going according to THEIR own internal timeline/plans.
When the LBH disagrees or stand firm on certain matter, then spew ensue from their mouths because you've thrown a serious monkey wrench in their plan by not rolling over and exposing your underbelly.
Please keep this in mind and try not to take W's future spewing personally.
it was strange i was involved in the conversation but i found myself almost watching my wife's patterns. There were moments when I could really see the way she reacts to certain things in the style of comment she comes out with.
she cant just disagree with me, she has to make sure I know im wrong and usually she refers to some third party (Law, solicitor, article she read) as the 'proof' im wrong. Chastising me for not agreeing has been a pattern for a long time in our relationship.
with regard to the 'reasonable' thing a quote from Hamlet came to mind "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
any time i act independently, but in a way that has an affect on her i get an immediate reaction, some kind of testing. if I unapologetically and calmly stand my ground she reacts badly, previously contemptuous spew, tonight was more subtle but still felt like spew
You can say that you will discuss this another time if she starts with g&t in her system, after she has read the draft.
And you don't have to hand over any cash without a signed agreement if you don't want.
None of the stuff you mentioned is 'controlling' of W, it is putting your own affairs In order. It is looking after your interests. You are not as far as I can see telling her what to think or do, just stating your own needs.
And now you are telling W you know about OM1, good for you. And it's perfectly ok in my book to say that you know about OM1, 2 etc. you don't like it but know that W will do as she waywardly pleases. She spews, as Wonka says ignore, it's incoherent rubbish especially after a drink or two and there is no sense in reasoning with someone uninhibited by drink.
Drink is a depressant and eventually poor lifestyle choices tell and bottoms are hit emotionally. That day will come as it must, A or no A reality bites hard on the drinker.
You are getting stronger Jim.
Vanilla
Jim,
Seems like the attitude of our wives to us is similar. I can tell you to definitely try and get the agreement as close to what you need as possible. I've found with our limited communication, we have entered at times into what I call an "arms race." Basically, mind reading based on a series of reactive decisions based on the others initial decision. Then things escalate to a place that require one of us to hunker down and give a little. Definitely not recommended and W and I talked about it the last MC (counseling) so hopefully we don't have that anymore.
Ah marriage counseling. My wife refuses. She refused when we had our major blow up a few years ago because she 'was afraid what I would say'. Now 'there is no point because there is no love to work with'
Its definitely going to be an interesting period trying to get this sorted.
Best of luck with it all jim..
Please forgive a moment of petulant outrage.
For the last 3 years my wife has always refused to get babysitters or leave the kids with someone so that we could do something as a couple. This morning my D3 tells me she was left all weekend with granny while mummy went to 'play with friends'
I'm upset by this for the following reasons
1 resentment that she wouldn't do that with me
2 jealousy that she is in a R with someone else
3 anger that I didn't see the kids only for her to then not spend any time with them
These are her decisions and the hurt I feel is mine. I can choose not to be hurt by this and instead reflect that this is just more evidence that my wife was not a good partner when with me.
Wish it was that easy
My narrative wants to say its proof that I was so awful that she felt she couldn't do this stuff but I need to stop that kind of thinking. Just struggling to think of an alternative narrative that isn't negative towards me, my wife or both.
Negative narratives is something I want to get better at stopping/countering
Jim
The most important reason is no 3.
Vanilla
Hi Jim
I know exactly what you mean on the the doing things as a couple, I had exactly the same situation with my W. I'd suggest let's go out and I'd get back what about S?
Mysteriously her Mum would never be free *that* day (W of course hadn't checked) and any suggestions on babysitting got knocked down straight away. If we were doing anything it had to be all of us. This is one of the root causes of my relationship with s being so awful (displaced frustration at w never setting time aside for our relationship) and also one of the reasons that I believe brought us to this point.
As to counselling same deal as you, W didn't want to know back in July as she said nope this is what she wanted and was happy at her mothers, definitely the right decision - this lasted a month before she was in tears at her situation.
I suggested counselling again in August/September when we were in "I think I may want to move back but I'm not sure if I just want to get away from my mum" time (I guess she just wanted to get away from her mum then) and she said it sounded like an idea, I got as far as discussing going as a family but of course it then just petered out as soon as I got dates and times so I just went to my own session for me.
I know we have different scenarios but a lot of the WAS playbook sure does track on all of our experiences it seems (this is indeed covered in the books).
I agree with your thoughts on negativity though try to work toward minimising them, in the above cases it's not necessarily true that you were awful and that was the cause but, and here I'm talking about my sitch, that communications weren't working at the time.
As an example from my r: I'd say 'what's wrong', w would say 'nothing, I'm fine', I'd say 'no you're not' and it would end with 'leave me alone or I won't be'.
In the case of going out I'd say 'let's go out', she'd say 'I don't want to go out without s', I'd say 'well we can do something together this weekend but I'd like us to go out for dinner' etc, she'd say 'I'll think about it'.
Then we wouldn't and she'd either deny the conversation took place or return to not wanting to go out without s.
I own that w had been trying to tell me of issues between s and I for *a long* time and I hadn't picked it up, I wasn't ignoring her but I was so deep into a spiral of being pushed away and getting frustrated, pursuing and getting more frustrated and pushing s away that it wasn't registering I think.
I also know w hadn't been listening to me on needing to be a couple with time apart from s to just to be 'us' for an equally long time. In your sitch I'd look to see if you have parallels and if you find yourself going negative look to see the change, 180 etc that could happen and think about that instead (not necessarily with w just for you).
That's what I'm attempting anyway, sometimes its working better than others!
As to what your daughter said if she was with her granny all weekend then you could possibly bring it up in a non confrontational way "D3 said she was with granny all weekend, I'd like to have spent that time with her this close to Christmas but its good for her to see her Grandparents, we can reschedule if you find you've got something you can't get out of just let me know and we'll discuss." or something similar and less waffly, any vet's have an opinion on that one?
Edz
I wasn't ignoring her but I was so deep into a spiral of being pushed away and getting frustrated
and here is more proof of the similarities we all face. I could have so easily written this (assuming i havent somewhere)
I know we have different scenarios but a lot of the WAS playbook sure does track on all of our experiences it seems (this is indeed covered in the books).
In someways an actual playbook my be a useful resource.
Like your saying one of the things i'm often doing is trying to identify how i could have been different/better to work on these issues rather than expecting her to change(aint hindsight brilliant!!!!) For example:
when she said she wasnt comfortable with a baby sitter then i could have made much more effort to do romantic things at home. instead i just felt the rejection and didnt bother.
when she recoiled from hugs, or made her 'no sex' excuse (usually 'i dont feel well'), instead of snapping 'I just wanted a hug' and slinking off all hurt. I should have said something more caring and positive.
Most importantly I should have paid attention to all the things she was doing and shown appreciation for this rather than resenting the stuff she wasn't.
The only downside for my narrative is that i then beat myself up about this and go into a 'no wonder shes leaving' / 'why would she ever come back' spiral. This is the bit i need to find a way to tackle
And so it continues. more formal emails (3 already this morning) pushing me on the timelines and trying to rewrite the financial agreements so they are worse for me.
At the moment I'm ignoring them. I will respond to them later with a simple 'I need to discuss this with my solicitor'
Hi Jim
On the emails that seems sensible. On the best way of looking at what could have been done differently, well, as you said hindsight is really really great and utterly useless now. I look at all the opportunities I had to spend time with s or all the time I spent working weekends etc instead of being out and about and the times I'd take my camera out on family days out but "distance" myself from the pair of them without realising I was doing it. I've spent a lot of the last few months really wanting to thump that guy until he saw sense but, ultimately, there's nothing to do facing that way, got to turn around and look at the scarier path forwards.
One thing I think you really need to do, a challenge since I think we do run quite parallel, is you need to forgive yourself. Yes, own the issues, know what could have been different and practice those changes for yourself, your kids and your w if she chooses (but try, try so hard not to only concentrate on that possibility) but also you need to move on *from* that old you. He's gone, the past, ghost of christmas past now left the building, new Jim, new outlook but you have to let him go (yes, I know Frozen again) and stop beating yourself up - thats the dber buddies job now
Really, of all the perspective changes I've made, thats made the biggest difference to me. Am I blame free - hah no - do I see what I could have done differently? Yup in hundreds of ways, was W an innocent party before bd - nope our communication was woeful - but, ultimately, what of that can I change now to hope to move into the future with w or in another meaningful relationship and building a future with my s in the last part of his pre-teen years?
I had to drop that baggage of beating myself and I really think you should try to as well as, if you can and you get your space next month (and I know the feeling that makes in the bottom of your stomach) you'll work toward being the Jim we all have faith in you being.
Take care mate
Edz
Right now i feel very backed into a corner. She is pushing me on the financials quite hard now (having ignored them for months) - i guess the difference a happy relationship with OM makes, however i cant help but feel that my discussion with her yesterday morning had an impact
She is definitely asserting herself
Because i feel backed into a corner it makes me want to act (react) which in this case would mean saying i'm filing so that we can resolve matters formally and finally.
Not sure this is a good plan. I need to map out my options i think and evaluate them.
Only my .02 but when I start feeling like that I now do the opposite. Stop do something else if possible, then come back to it when the steam has finished pouring out of my ears (see the invoice from MIL for cleaning incident). Its bl00dy difficult to get right.
I cant say if you should file, its not even necessarily the end of it all you could still reconcile afterward but you need to ask yourself do you want to file to move on or because you are reacting to the feelings of rejection and striking out at being backed into the corner?
We're on top of the holidays so leaving it to next weekend would be my advice, remember the number one asteristed bit of advice you've got from Vanilla and co as well!
Vets any better qualified suggestions?
You're right in the short term. I just need to figure out my longer term plan but I've got time
Hi Jim, all the time in the world, this your life. it can only get better. Have a good day, RD
Indeed, planning for your stability and that of the kids is very wise but don't get so caught up in it you forget to live life now and enjoy it.
Number one lesson learned by Edz!
Indeed, planning for your stability and that of the kids is very wise but don't get so caught up in it you forget to live life now and enjoy it.
Fundamentally, how i got here. So focused on grievances from the past and hope the future would be better that I failed to live in the present and do what i needed to do to have that better future.
Ah marriage counseling. My wife refuses
actually, I usually put mediation in parenthesis, I messed that one up, typing too fast. While W said she would go, we talk about nothing but logistics of the separation. She told the MC she wasn't interestef in a R talk. That and she won't talk to me outside of that time, so it's the only chance too talk.
I have to say, my W asked about counseling about a year ago out of the blue, since I didn't know anything was wrong in our M. I asked her why she thought we should go, it seemed as if we were solving any conflict/arguments right after we had them. She then said maybe she should go by herself.
Hindsight is 20/20, but during BD, she told me she had begged me to go to counseling and I refused (that was this one time above.) If only I had known what she was going through at the time as A was taking hold of competing with our M.....
More scripting help please
Well it’s been a few hours and I haven’t responded yet. Whilst I do not need to make any big decisions today, not responding would be seen as obstructive
So short term I should do rougly what i said earlier and simply say
‘I will need to discuss this with my solicitor.’
If I say just that there is a good chance she will take that as escalation and being unreasonable. It mirrors the aggression through formality that she has adopted which I don’t think is a good thing. I think I can stand my ground whilst being caring – instead of hiding the soft underbelly, showing that it’s not so soft. I feel like this is the better approach as its neither dismissive nor inflammatory
W
Thanks for the comments.
Some of the items you’ve raised about the separation finances make me feel a little apprehensive and so I will need to consult my solicitor to get a fuller understanding before getting back to you on these. I trust you understand.
I also need to respond on the Christmas schedule thing and so that will be a separate email that says something like. I said it was not balanced and asked to change it, she said no.
W
I understand your viewpoint on this. I sent the document across as draft for discussion rather than a final agreement. My apologies that this was not clear enough
I was referring to the 4 additional days that cover the Christmas period, of which you have 3 of these with the children. I would like to have the children on Monday 29th December in order to balance up this arrangement so that we each have two extra days.
Hopefully this would not inconvenience you too much or significantly affect your existing plans.
Thanks
Any input on these would be helpful as i seem to leek judgement, blame and pursuit without even realising i’m doing it
Jim
Im not the best to advise here as I can go off to wafflwaffly land when I dont need to and shouldnt but I'd stick with the KISS approach and not say anything you dont need to or mention anything you dont need to get resolved straight away.
With that I'll let those who are actually good at this advice help further
Hi Jim, i don't have these discusions as W left and I have kids, however Anything W says to me I answer as if I was talking to a neighbour, honestly but not too honestly. EG, W told me she was going out last nite, ME, that sounds nice, W , I don't fancy it because its the same people as last week , i have no money and I have to drive, ME, ok, see how you feel later. Conv over.
NOTHING she could read into that, imho. Neutral, not I dont care or I do care but neutral.
Just my pennies worth. RD
W
Thanks for the comments.
Some of the items you’ve raised about the separation finances make me feel a little apprehensive and so is something that I will need to consult my solicitor to get a fuller understanding before getting back to you on these. I trust you understand.
I also need to respond on the Christmas schedule thing and so that will be a separate email that says something like. I said it was not balanced and asked to change it, she said no.
W
I understand your viewpoint on this. I sent the document across as draft for discussion rather than a final agreement. My apologies that this was not clear enough
I was referring to the 4 additional days that cover the Christmas period, of which you have 3 of these with the children. I would like to have the children on Monday 29th December in order to balance up this arrangement so that we each have two extra days.
Hopefully this would not inconvenience you too much or significantly affect your existing plans.
I think this proposed schedule is fair and equitable that it allows our children to spend the holidays with us. I am sure you agree that it is important to create positive and happy memories for our children over the holidays.
What are your thoughts?
Thanks
Any input on these would be helpful as i seem to leek judgement, blame and pursuit without even realising i’m doing it
Thanks Wonka,
I made a couple of minor alterations but sent them as you've suggested
If she is the one with the timeline then it is far better for you to take your time and do what is right for you. Her timeline is probably more important to her than getting her way. She is pushing you so she can get both. As the timeline nears she will have to compromise or not be on her timeline. That will work in your favor. The closer it gets the more she will just want to compromise to not miss her timeline. Use that to your advantage. Don't let her hurry you.
Please don't let her anger or pressure of her timeline get you to agree to something you don't want to do. Tell her the same thing she told you.. "I'm not signing anything that isn't fair."
I don't really have any advice for you but I am continuing to keep you in my prayers. Best of luck with your agreement.
Having refused to discuss things for ages my wife is now complaining that we've left thing until the last minute. Brilliant!!!!
Oh and she says its important we are all reasonable.
This week has really seen a change in her overt attitude
Today is not a good day. We've had a big exchange of very formal almost passive aggressive emails
She referred to not liking being in limbo
OK think I went wrong on the last with a relationship reference. Said
I will, as I always have done, do what I can to respect your decisions and not add any unnecessary delay.
Maybe you should have left it as I can respect your decisions and not add delays.
What do i want for christmas......... A broken foot apparently
so fellow DB'rs today is an excellent example of how to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
for this sorry tale i'm just going to quickly recap the last couple of days building up to this.
On monday morning while getting ready for work there was a stunted discussion/arguement between my wife and I about the fact that i was upset at the prospect of christmas without my kids. During the course of this discussion highlights of my statements included
- It wont be as bad for you next year because we will have had a year to adjust and besides this is what you want
- I always trusted you, i've dont understand why you think i didnt
- You've been seeing him for several months, at least do me the courtesy of letting me know before you introduce him to our kids
The response to this was a lot of emails written in a very business like and detached way. similar in style to what you would send a poorly performing member of staff. I've sort some advice on how best to respond to these and i'm grateful for the assistance.
So this morning my wife and I have exchanges some 30+ emails reagarding various things in relation to the financial settlement and christmas schedule. I'm clearly not going to repeat all of these but i will would just like to pull out some highlights of the conversation to give you a sense of it
Wife:
I think we need to revisit the split. The nursery bill, after childcare vouchers are deducted (of which you pay £XXX and I pay £XXX), will be over £XXX this month. That is far more than half the mortgage. As such, if I pay that, I won’t be putting any money into the joint account to cover the bills. As I said before, I will continue to pay the cleaners, which equates to a further £XX a week.
Me:
I think the best thing to do is to sit down and go through all the joint monthly outgoings and split these 50/50. Can we arrange a time to do this please.
Thanks
Wife:
Yes, that seems like a good suggestion. Although for January, as I said, my intention is not to be in the property for the full month. Your buying me out is the final piece of the jigsaw, I am ready to exchange on my new house. Therefore I don’t believe a 50/50 split is fair, but we can discuss that further. I will hold off paying any bills until we have done so.
We also need to discuss the ongoing payment of the nursery fees and write down our agreement on this. Can I suggest we discuss on 31st? My Mum will be available to babysit and I don’t think we’ll be in the same place for a great deal of time between now and then.
Me:
I can't do the 31st as I have plans.
we don't know the exact timeline at this stage and so I believe we should work out the figure as a 50/50 split and then adjust it when we know.
Wife:
OK, we can discuss it further when you are available.
To be clear though, the only thing that is holding up my move now is our agreement of this document. Given that the sum of money I have asked for and the furniture have been agreed for some time, I see no reason why this matter shouldn’t be concluded swiftly. The move date we are working to is 13th January, and I would like you to acknowledge that and support working towards it.
We have both been living in limbo for some time now, and it will be healthiest for both of us, and the children, if this matter is concluded swiftly and we both get the space we need to move on, and I believe that will also mean that our ability to co-parent will be improved as we will no longer have the tensions of living together.
Please support me in working towards 13th January. This gives you clarity too with regards to the move date and when you can expect me to move out, so you can sort the replacement of the large items of furniture I will be taking with me.
Thanks.
Me:
I appreciate that this has been causing you concern and I do not wish to add to that. I will, as I always have done, do what I can to respect your decisions and not to add any unnecessary delay.
You should, however, also be aware that you have asked for significant revisions to the document in the last 2 days and I need to discuss these with my solicitor. I am unable to give you any commitment beyond that.
hopefully this gives you a sense of how it was going and obviously if you can see bits where i could have validated more, been stronger or generally whatever to handle it better then I would welcome the feedback
Anyway the conversation continued like this for a bit and it seemed to be getting more and more formal with more mentions of solicitors doing things. To the point where my wife said:
wife:
I am in the process of instructing my solicitor to discuss the matter directly with yours.
This is never good so I started trying to look at it from her perspective (I know, mind-reading) I feel that she is really anxious about the timeline she has set out, she is desperate to move as soon as possible and she now has a finish line in sight and going back to previous comments i think she thinks (or at least fears) that i will deliberately try to muck that up.
with this in mind I said
Me:
it would be useful to know to what end?
we seem to have got into a level of formality that seems unnecessary and im not really sure why. I am pretty confident its not doing either of us any favours though.
I would rather we had a discussion about what we are both thinking and concerned about to see if we can work out a good way forward.
Wife:
OK. I’ll hold fire for now. We can discuss and agree a way forward from there. I am concerned that we won’t be able to get to a mutually agreed way forward – there was considerable space between what you wanted in the agreement and what I wanted from it. I also didn’t understand some of the legal terminology used and how this fits with any future divorce proceedings.
Me:
Hopefully we can come up with something. We've always been great at figuring stuff out when we sit down to talk about it (not many couples would be able to have the childcare discussion we had).
To be honest im happy to ditch the legal terminology as long as we can get something that works for us both.
When would you like to talk?
went back and forth for a bit but we agreed to talk before she left for MIL's house. I felt at this point that i had done a reasonable job of calming down a difficult situation and felt vaguely positive about talking to her because when we sit down and talk it tends to be constructive (I just can never get her to do so)
Anyway she got home and basically ignored me while she got ready. as she was about to leave, 30 minutes earlier than planned, I said.
M: I take it you would like to discuss that issue another time
W: Well I don't have time now
M: Ok well let me know when you do want to talk about it
W: I want to know what your concerns are
M: In short exposure, but it needs a proper conversation not an in passing one as one of us is on the way out the door.
W: I dont understand what you mean by exposure, everything is covered by what i've suggested and i wont sign what you proposed so i dont see the issue
M: I'm happy to discuss it but properly, when we have these conversations as one of is out the door or passing in corridors it just leads to misunderstanding, like the christmas schedule
W: that wasn't a misunderstanding that was terrible communication on your part
M: If it helps you to blame me thats fine, but from my perspective it was a misunderstanding. I want to avoid that by having a proper conversation about it
A few minutes later as the car was all loaded up we had a bit more of a continuation of this conversation with me basically saying we need to make time for these kinds of issues and my wife sort of agreeing. I thought but didnt say that maybe if we had done that during the marriage rather than snipe at each other we would have actually worked on our issues.
My wife did also say that she knows christmas without the kids is going to be very hard on me. I didnt thank her for this acknowledgement.
Icing to all of this comes in what i said just before she drove off
M: I'm not doing anything to try and hurt you or delay you. I never have and i never will. I need to make sure i'm protected for my future life but other than that i'm not trying to get in your way
W: well it feels like you are
M: I can assure you i'm not but if you've got concerns talk to me about them
W: well I need to move by the 13th and so you need to get things sorted by then
M: I only found out there was an issue 2 days ago and i told my solicitor straight away, maybe a 3 hour delay.
W: I told you ages ago.
M: I only saw your proposed changes 2 days ago and i'm already working on this.
I said bye to the kids and wished my W a good christmas (it wasnt reciprocated)
And now the cherry on this marvellous cake.
As i came into the house after waving them off (more briefly than usual) my anger which i had been restraining boiled over, I slammed the front door and walked into the kitchen and lashed out at wall, furious that my wife had left me for another man, that she could betray me and take my kids like that, that he would get to spend christmas with my wife. I kicked the wall have a dozen times and then broke down in tears.
So now I'm sat in my house, with a 12 inch hole in my kitchen wall, a broken foot, and it looks like i'm spending christmas alone as I cant drive anywhere. And to top it off i missing the last bit of my D3s christmas present.
All in all not really turned out very well
Ouch, Jim. That sounds very painful. Pamper yourself a little and put that foot up!
(((hugs)))
I'm sorry you're feeling this much pain (physically and emotionally). Love and light to you, Jim. I hope some how and some way even a moment of peace will reach you during this holiday.
Ouch. Sorry to hear that mate. Just arrived at my dads after a couple of false starts. Just got everything ready to go when the cat decided to climb to the top of the stairs and redecorate the stairs and the hall with chicken.
Sorted and then drove over. Doesn't match your day though mate. Indeed put that foot up and take it easy.
Aouch! The fit of rage and the broken foot are a fitting metaphor for how we mostly hurt ourselves with our rage. I'm really sorry for you. You had enough to deal with already.
A quick tip for dealing with your W: STFU. I wonder why we didn't think of that before. ;-) But seriously, after you've made your point, don't try to have the last word. You say: "I'll talk to my solicitor" and whatever she replies, shut up. It means you haven't changed your mind. And it makes you look strong.
Also, try to speak more with your actions, less with your words. You often tell her what are your intentions, your feelings, your future actions, etc. Take it that she'll never believe you because that's exactly what happening. Has she ever said "Oh, you're not trying to get in the way? Sorry, I misunderstood"? No. Yet, you go back to this over and over. Ignore all of this, even when she brings it up, and act, period.
Again, really sorry about your situation. Remember: "Comedy = Tragedy + time" so perhaps one day we'll all have a different perspective on these difficult times... I know I've already started joking about my sitch with some friends, a sign that I'm getting better.
Hi Jim
I'm so sorry to read of your troubles. Just wanted to send you a Christmas Eve hug (())
Toots xx
Jim. Just saw your post. Holy crap. Had a lot of broken bones over the years and leg and foot up there. Listen mate, you handled the sitch really well up to ( trying to remember what you said ) oh yea, the broken foot bit Really sorry for your pain ( both types ). Keep strong. Rd
Jim,
So sorry to read bout the exchange and your foot. Well, it looks like you really put your foot in your mouth.
Go out in a pub and be around your mates. Perhaps a mate of yours can collect you? Get out of the house or you'll be stuck with watching The Queen's Christmas broadcast. A pretty compelling choice, heh?
Merry Christmas to you from across the pond.
Thanks all. Certainly not what imagined a few months back.
My Dad has done a 5hr round trip drive to come and get me so I'm now at his. Apparently my stepmum went ballistic at the idea I was going to be on my own.
Had a good chat on the drive with my dad. He called me an idiot in relation to my foot (and the wall) and doesnt understand why I'm being so reasonable with my wife or why I would possibly want her back. He also said some nice things about me and not just platitudes or self aggrandising statements - genuine compliments. This is new and nice.
Whatever you're doing, whoever you're with I hope you have a great Christmas safe in the knowledge that things will get better.
Thank you for the continuing support and guidance. Its a gift very gratefully recieved.
Merry Christmas
Sorry, Jim, to read about your foot! That really sux. FWIW I think you handled yourself well under a lot of pressure. Enjoy the time with your dad and stepmum. Merry Christmas to you.
Seriously why can't I learn to just STFU?????????
Spoke to my wife and kids briefly this morning and for god knows what reason told her about my foot.
My W being the manipulative %&%##£ that she is will likely use this to say that this is proof I'm violent and unstable. She may even try to take my kids over it.
Fortunately I don't have to have any more contact with her today
I would have said another reason why it was broken. Not her and not the fight.
Jim. Just learn from it mate. STFU is the way to go Have a the best day you can. Rd
(((Jim))) sending wishes for a peaceful few days. I am so sorry that you have had such a bad go lately. Thinking of you and sending positive vibes your way.
Actually Jim, this is Vanilla being contrary again. I am glad to see some angry stuff.
Breaking your toes Kicking the wall is better than shooting yourself in the foot.
Bones mend.
Walls can be repaired.
That just shows you need an outlet how about a boxers punching bag?
On a more serious note, make sure you get the toes straightened x rayed and pain killers to numb the pain.
Much love to you at Xmas
Vanilla
Hello,
Thank you all for the kind words and support over. The good news is that my foot isnt broken its just badly bruised the bone and done some other damage. I can put a little bit of weight on it as long as i keep taking my extra strength ibuprofen.
Christmas was ok and I had a nice weekend with the kids, we tried to make it fun for them though i really struggled as i felt the absence of my wife. Strangely i found christmas day without the kids easier than the family christmas without my wife.
The service station child exchange went ok - my Wife hugged me (first in 3 months) but she was upset and my family didnt help her feel ok. they had to be there because i couldnt drive
Back at work today - then out tonight
got the kids tomorrow and going to visit family with them, then out for New Years Eve.
Just trying to make plans for the weekend now (i need to be away again as its W turn with the kids)
Another update in a minute about a relationship talk I had with my wife (her request, sort of...)
Great news about the foot and here's hoping talk was ok me rd
After my wife returned from her MILs she said she wanted to speak to me about a couple of things particularly in relation to her moving schedule.
We talked for about 2hrs on a bunch of stuff and i tried to validate where i could, I think i did ok at not being defensive or critical. Having said that the 37 rules went out the window on a bunch of stuff. despite all of this i felt it was an honest (ish) discussion. It was a long conversation which covered a lot of ground so its a relatively long post.
As well as discussing next steps and our concerns my wife was the clearest she has ever been on what she felt I did wrong in our relationship and why it is now over.
I obviously cant cover all of what was said but I'll give some key bits of what she said(order is a bit all over the place)
* She used to love me, she was 'all in' to our relationship and would have followed me anywhere. she wanted to marry me and have kids with me. She is now angry with me because I destroyed that and took her hope for the future away - the life she wanted with me of joint parenting and grandkids. She said we could have had something amazing and I ruined it. I said I'm angry at myself for this as well (hence kicking the wall)
* She said i was bullying and controlling and that whenever she was doing something to make herself happy i just played out my insecurities to make her miserable. I disagreed but apologised since that is how she felt. She said i said the right things but my actions showed different and that i seemed to be after a tablet of stone to say she would never leave, and the more distant she was the more controlling I became. It became a self fulfilling prophecy.
* She made the decision to leave me months ago she was just working up to it, and then the arguement around BD gave her the push she needed.
* She feels she tried to talk to me and made mention of times where she raised it with me including one i had forgotten. we had a nice day out but then argued on the way back and both said 'what are we going to do to fix out marriage?'. I basically forgot about this by the next day.
* She feels I was never there for her when she needed me. when she was struggling i just left her to cry and abandoned. I was not the kind supportive husband she needed. She knows that a lot of this comes from my Cr@ppy upbringing but as she said she made excuses for a long time but that doesnt stop it being not good enough. She says that i created a void and she had to fill it with herself and then realised that i was making her miserable and she doesnt need me. She 'knows' she will be happier on her own than with me and she doesnt want to take the risk that i will let her down yet again.
* She said that the way I treated her when her dad died was the final nail in the coffin for our relationship it just took her a long time to accept that. She also said later that its water under the bridge. apparently she felt she couldnt grieve for him and had put her grief on pause until BD - she is now grieving for him properly. I explained that until this I had no idea of what a sense of loss could feel like and the emptiness that goes with it - I just didnt understand how it feels, which made it difficuly for me to be able to properly empathise nor did i know what to do to comfort her - its only people who have supported me through this who have actually shown me. we talked a bit about some of the things i thought i was doing and she called me stupid.
* She denied the relationship with OM1, admitted going on one date but said it didnt go well (swore on the kids lives) - I know this isnt true as there have been multiple dates but didnt push it after she swore on the kids lives. She also said that nothing in her life is any of my business and i need to stop watching her and asking anything about her - that it wasnt fair for me to ask questions if what she was saying didnt make any sense. She also said 'i'm not your possession anymore'
* She asked if i've dated - I said no, it doesnt feel right. I'm nowhere near that place yet and that she has had a lot longer to get used to this idea. She said she knows as she had a similar experience with one of her exs. She also said its why she needs to move so that she can move on and I can properly grieve for our relationship.
* we discussed the house move a bit. I said i need to speak with my solicitor she said she is just being reasonable and that if i cant be then our solicitors will have to speak to each other. I said that i've always tried to respect her decisions and am not going to deliberately do anything to make this difficult but that i need to protect myself. I explained my concerns and my thinking and what I've asked my solicitor. She said she cant stand coming to the house as she thinks of it as mine and so whether the purchase is complete or not she is moving out mid january (to her mums if necessary)
* I admitted that previously I had snooped her phone and apologised for this. She said she knew anyway. She said if I do it again she will 'add it' to the unreasonable behaviour in the divorce citation. She also said she has no intentions on filing at the moment but that she will tell me before she does.
* She said she is pleased i'm trying to improve myself though it feels like a 'tactic' i'm trying out after reading something in a book. I explained that not addressing this stuff had cost me the most important relationship in my life and that i needed to fix this stuff for me and my future. I also said its a bit awkward at the moment because its all new and so not natural to me yet. She said that she had read something which says its possible to be an awful husband and yet still a good dad.
* She said she is tired of going round in circles, she's fine that i'm on a 'voyage of self discovery' but she already knows all this stuff i'm finding out about myself
* She said she was annoyed that i've made changes to things like the childcare arrangements which she wanted before but that i only do this now it affects me, that i wouldnt do it before. I tried to explain its because it didnt occur to me to suggest this and that i felt we always discussed at the wrong times (when we were both upset by it - rather than when we were calm). we didnt revisit when
* she has watched MWD's Walk away wife video that i sent her mum about a week or two after BD. She said she isnt a WAW and that if this was about me not doing the hoovering then we wouldnt be getting divorced.
* She is happier in her relationship with the kids now, she has reestablished her bond with D3, she felt it was too much me and D3, her and S1. she said i never had to deal with the jealousy that D3 had toward S1 and that I didnt do enough to help her
* she over the course of discussions listed a bunch of my behaviours that made her miserable (nothing really new but this came from her) which included
- I made everything a debate even when I didnt care. she ended up rather having blank walls than face trying to talk to me about it
- I have selective amnesia to ignore things when she tried to talk to me about it
- I made critical and sarcastic comments all the time
- I didnt show her i cared
- life stopped being fun. even when we went out it wasnt fun
- She stopped wanting to talk to me because it was always a debate or something serious and negative
- I always seemed more interested in material things and money. She liked going out for coffee and cake and I said we couldnt afford it (even though we still went out)
- I was rubbish at big romantic gestures
- I should have bought her an engagement ring and that if I loved her I would have proposed rather than her to me.
- I bought too much negativity home from work
I tried to validate a lot of these but in places that drifted into more of a 'I can see why you think that but....' or a 'And now i know I should have.....'
* She was firm (repeatedly) that our relationship is over and that we both need to move on so that she can be happy in a way that my controlling stopped her from being. That she has drawn a line in the sand and our marriage is dead. It has been for sometime.
After all of this I felt a bit sick and had a terrible nights sleep. I kept waking up with my mind racing on how awful I had been and all the terrible things I had done and how I had wasted this. I used some of the mindfulness techniques to slow my thinking down a bit which was alright but i need a lot of work here. This kind of destructive rumination has always been part of me and my worst behaviours/outbursts were 99% at the backend of one of these.
Strangely though in a lot of ways i felt more positive about some things at the back of this, whether its because my wife told me this stuff or she had previously, but the for the first time I properly listened.
Theres a lot I could have done differently in the conversation and once again i said things to the affect of how amazing she is and how upset i am by this, but i was also really firm that what i'm doing is either to support her or for me, rather than trying to persuade her to reconcile. It might be pursuit but actually I think it was more of a 'I love you, I always have, and thats why i'm letting you go'
As always your advice is much appreciated.
Thanks
Hi jim. That must have been tough to hear However it was nothing new and it's sounds to me like she is trying to convince herself as well as you. As everyone knows I am not an expert so please take everything I say with a pinch of salt.
I read a lot of different stichs on on here and although there are similarities no two are exactly alike. Your W is hurting and rightly so by what she said and you agreed with. You two have a connection and she does not want to lose it but at the moment she feels she has to. As been said a million times on this board , we cannot control the WAS This has happened for a reason to all of us. We will all be happy again one day , with of without WAS. PLEASE continue on your path of detachment and GAL. It's the quickest way for you to heal, either way.
Here the hope bit, your W loved you deeply, at the moment she is not I love with you but the connection is still there be the best Jim possible TO EVERYONE, not just W. You have complete control over you and continue to show her who she feel in love mwith. I have read your posts and you come accross as a really nice guy
Your future is unknown , your W can always change her mind , nothing is set in stone Continue as you have been and happiness will come and I hope it's much sooner than later. Rd
Jim, my observations are included here, but my overall conclusion is that W is not taking responsibility for herself. Do not buy into it as it's mainly spew.
As well as discussing next steps and our concerns my wife was the clearest she has ever been on what she felt I did wrong in our relationship and why it is now over.
So W did nothing wrong at all? It's all Jim to make bad and good? Complete and total blame shifting.
* She used to love me, she was 'all in' to our relationship and would have followed me anywhere. she wanted to marry me and have kids with me. She is now angry with me because I destroyed that and took her hope for the future away - the life she wanted with me of joint parenting and grandkids. She said we could have had something amazing and I ruined it.
and W did not have any responsibility and W did not ruin it?
I said I'm angry at myself for this as well (hence kicking the wall)
let this go. Accept your share but let go it's past. Gone can't be changed.
* She said i was bullying and controlling and that whenever she was doing something to make herself happy i just played out my insecurities to make her miserable.
I disagreed but apologised since that is how she felt.
absolutely
She said i said the right things but my actions showed different and that i seemed to be after a tablet of stone to say she would never leave, and the more distant she was the more controlling I became. It became a self fulfilling prophecy.
rationalising and justifying spew.
* She made the decision to leave me months ago she was just working up to it, and then the arguement around BD gave her the push she needed.
might be the only really fully truthful thing said
* She feels she tried to talk to me and made mention of times where she raised it with me including one i had forgotten. we had a nice day out but then argued on the way back and both said 'what are we going to do to fix out marriage?'. I basically forgot about this by the next day.
Rationalising, justifying and spew
* She feels I was never there for her when she needed me. when she was struggling i just left her to cry and abandoned. I was not the kind supportive husband she needed. She knows that a lot of this comes from my Cr@ppy upbringing but as she said she made excuses for a long time but that doesnt stop it being not good enough. She says that i created a void and she had to fill it with herself and then realised that i was making her miserable and she doesnt need me. She 'knows' she will be happier on her own than with me and she doesnt want to take the risk that i will let her down yet again.
oh dear, more rationalising, justifying and spew
* She said that the way I treated her when her dad died was the final nail in the coffin for our relationship it just took her a long time to accept that. She also said later that its water under the bridge. apparently she felt she couldnt grieve for him and had put her grief on pause until BD - she is now grieving for him properly. I explained that until this I had no idea of what a sense of loss could feel like and the emptiness that goes with it - I just didnt understand how it feels, which made it difficuly for me to be able to properly empathise nor did i know what to do to comfort her - its only people who have supported me through this who have actually shown me. we talked a bit about some of the things i thought i was doing and she called me stupid.
Pity party, justifying and yet more spew. Oh yes and a little insulting rant at the end
* She denied the relationship with OM1, admitted going on one date but said it didnt go well (swore on the kids lives) - I know this isnt true as there have been multiple dates but didnt push it after she swore on the kids lives. She also said that nothing in her life is any of my business and i need to stop watching her and asking anything about her - that it wasnt fair for me to ask questions if what she was saying didnt make any sense. She also said 'i'm not your possession anymore'
lies and nasty spew
* She asked if i've dated - I said no, it doesnt feel right. I'm nowhere near that place yet and that she has had a lot longer to get used to this idea. She said she knows as she had a similar experience with one of her exs. She also said its why she needs to move so that she can move on and I can properly grieve for our relationship.
STFU Jim you are S none of her concern
* we discussed the house move a bit. I said i need to speak with my solicitor she said she is just being reasonable and that if i cant be then our solicitors will have to speak to each other. I said that i've always tried to respect her decisions and am not going to deliberately do anything to make this difficult but that i need to protect myself. I explained my concerns and my thinking and what I've asked my solicitor. She said she cant stand coming to the house as she thinks of it as mine and so whether the purchase is complete or not she is moving out mid january (to her mums if necessary)
admin
* I admitted that previously I had snooped her phone and apologised for this. She said she knew anyway. She said if I do it again she will 'add it' to the unreasonable behaviour in the divorce citation.
she can't unless she files first
She also said she has no intentions on filing at the moment but that she will tell me before she does.
contradiction
* She said she is pleased i'm trying to improve myself though it feels like a 'tactic' i'm trying out after reading something in a book. I explained that not addressing this stuff had cost me the most important relationship in my life and that i needed to fix this stuff for me and my future. I also said its a bit awkward at the moment because its all new and so not natural to me yet. She said that she had read something which says its possible to be an awful husband and yet still a good dad.
STFU Jim, you are S none of her business
* She said she is tired of going round in circles, she's fine that i'm on a 'voyage of self discovery' but she already knows all this stuff i'm finding out about myself
really? She knows? Clearly not!
* She said she was annoyed that i've made changes to things like the childcare arrangements which she wanted before but that i only do this now it affects me, that i wouldnt do it before. I tried to explain its because it didnt occur to me to suggest this and that i felt we always discussed at the wrong times (when we were both upset by it - rather than when we were calm). we didnt revisit when
this is quite clearly not correct. I read your thread
* she has watched MWD's Walk away wife video that i sent her mum about a week or two after BD. She said she isnt a WAW and that if this was about me not doing the hoovering then we wouldnt be getting divorced.
DB is for you Sandi rule? This is very funny and silly
* She is happier in her relationship with the kids now, she has reestablished her bond with D3, she felt it was too much me and D3, her and S1. she said i never had to deal with the jealousy that D3 had toward S1 and that I didnt do enough to help her
not your job to help here! She is blaming you for her emotions and herfailure to bond with her child? That's outrageous and intended to be very hurtful.
* she over the course of discussions listed a bunch of my behaviours that made her miserable (nothing really new but this came from her) which included
- I made everything a debate even when I didnt care. she ended up rather having blank walls than face trying to talk to me about it
- I have selective amnesia to ignore things when she tried to talk to me about it
- I made critical and sarcastic comments all the time
- I didnt show her i cared
- life stopped being fun. even when we went out it wasnt fun
- She stopped wanting to talk to me because it was always a debate or something serious and negative
- I always seemed more interested in material things and money. She liked going out for coffee and cake and I said we couldnt afford it (even though we still went out)
- I was rubbish at big romantic gestures
- I should have bought her an engagement ring and that if I loved her I would have proposed rather than her to me.
- I bought too much negativity home from work
No one makes anyone else do or say anything. This is pure spew and justification. Poor W has no responsibility for anything and if you took responsibility you were controlling. Did you also fail to stir her tea every second Tuesday or blow her nose when she had a cold! Nothing you could have done would be ok this is rewriting history. It is also all or nothing thinking together with blame shifting. Cheese less tunnel.
I tried to validate a lot of these but in places that drifted into more of a 'I can see why you think that but....' or a 'And now i know I should have.....'
Ok but how about just grow up and take responsibility for yourself, put your big girl shoes on
* She was firm (repeatedly) that our relationship is over and that we both need to move on so that she can be happy in a way that my controlling stopped her from being. That she has drawn a line in the sand and our marriage is dead. It has been for sometime.
no one stops another from being happy or unhappy. This is a W behaving like a spoilt child. You don't need to do anything for her to be happy, happiness comes from inside.
Theres a lot I could have done differently in the conversation and once again i said things to the affect of how amazing she is
Sorry Jim but from where I am this isn't the case so I am glad you didn't.
and how upset i am by this,
clearly but frankly don't encourage any more of this spew[ cut it off before it starts
but i was also really firm that what i'm doing is either to support her or for me, rather than trying to persuade her to reconcile.
I truly hope it's for you
It might be pursuit but actually I think it was more of a 'I love you, I always have, and thats why i'm letting you go'
to grow up and stop being a princess
Jim this is high quality princess like spew and rationalisation. Leave this outside your head, no head room. Some of this is designed to justify her actions.
A little unvarnished, but my thoughts
(((Hugs))))
Vanilla
Hi Jim
A tough day, no doubts. I'd agree that there's likely some self convincing going on and I constantly hear the comment believe nothing that's said 50% of what's doene but, ultimately you are talking.
I'm still waiting for my w to comment on her thoughts, the
Last comments she raised being that she was happy with having left (July) then not happy but not sure if she wanted to come back or be alone (august) and radio silence since..
I'd say for good or bad the two of you having your own space will allow you to explore what you want as well, of course, as allowing you to detatch. Like the rest of us I don't know the answers and I do want my family back together but as you've said my positivity and, indeed, sanity have been a lot better since I've moved and created my own space. I don't know if this is short term or if I'm creating bedrock to move forward with w or post marriage and I hope that you'll find the same peace of mind and ability to be happy even of the idea of it knots you up right now.
When w spoke to me in July as mentioned above I heard all the ilybnilwy, grown apart, changed, on and on. She then wrote me a letter and emailed it to me - word document by email, no doubt in my mind it was written by mil and then emailed on, mil is also tech illiterate and forgot I could track what PC the document was written on, oops - saying the defining reason for us splitting was my relation or lack of it with s, then came a breakdown that she needed to be away from mil but didn't know if she wanted to come back to me. The constant thing here is she was profoundly sure at each stage this was it. What the issue was and what she wants...until it wasn't.
I'm not being overly confident etc here, there's a very good chance we're done as a couple, there is also a chance we're not. There's a certanty I need to carry on and aim to be happy.
So I suppose I'm saying its a horrid situation, get yourself into your own space, that's not the end so be wary of creating artificial deadlines and "ends" of which I've been guilty. There are stories on here of people splitting, divorcing and more and ending back together. But if not we can still be happy if we allow ourselves to be open to the option.
I'm still working on it all and am no expert but I'm working on it.
Keep your head up mate and have faith in yoursepf, your ability to change and handle change and to be happy for you and the kids and w if she so chooses.
Take care
Edz
Jim,
I'd suggest that you take the bull by the horns by retaining a L and file for a D. Work with your L to work out the financial and legal terms. Tell him/her your very bottom line. Then have your L serve your W with D papers. No more negotiating with your W because she's always changing the goalposts to suit her needs. It is all about her. It's incredibly unfair to you.
It's time for you to stop tiptoeing around W and take charge of your own affairs. If W doesn't like what your L proposes to her L, then go to Court. It is very important to look out for your own interests....NOW. Not later, not next week.
Your W is very self-absorbed and needs to learn some hard lessons by her lonesome self.
Time for you to look the other way and start carving a life that is YOUR own. Take back your true power.
As you know, a D doesn't always spell the end of things between you and W. We've had a number of successful reconciliations long after the D papers were signed. I hold up Mish's and Crimson's situations as examples.
Hi all.
Thanks for the comments and inout. I am as always very grateful.
A few things crop up from reading your thoughts.
- I didn't really take it as spew. I took it as how she feels and was positive that for once she actually was willing to explain.
- it was all clearly laid on me, though she again made vague references to things she needs to learn from this. The only specific was not to marry someone if they didn't ask (she asked me)
- at points she was lying, she knows she was lying, I know she is lying, i font know if she knows I know. I kind of backed her into an uncomfortable corner (particularly about the dating).
- she talked positively about herself but also how miserable she is stuck in her bedroom, that she hates coming back to this house where I am.
Her moving will help me detach and I certainly deserve better than the relationship I've had these last couple of years. I'm not sure why I would want to reconcile with someone who treats me as she has but I do and that's how I feel about it.
Couple of questions
1) Just out of curiousity, let's assume everything she has said is true, exactly as she describes it. Does that make any difference to what I should be doing or thinking about things. (I recognise everything she has said even if I can give a bunch if yes, buts...)
2) wonka, you say to file. Can I ask why you think this?
Thanks
Jim
stop trying to wriggle. It's spew: mainly incoherent rambling blaming junk. None of it is really "explanation".
answers from Vanilla
1. No, even if every single word of criticism were true. W is still not accepting any responsibility for herself. At all, none. You are DBing just fine, making changes for Jim. Still not enough STFU and too much persuit for me. Some of this putting her R with her children as your responsibility is just unpleasant. These statements are contradicting each other and much of it is clearly lies.
2. I agree with Wonka, this WAW needs a wake up call. But I leave if that should be D to wiser minds, remember divorce is a two stage process in the UK. Plus Little Prima Princess has made contradictory statements about D. You need L and fast.
A wake up reality check in is likely to be healthy for your future R.
Hi Jim
If you feel you want to reconcile then you do, don't beat yourself up about it. I really don't want to go back to the way w s and I were before bd, in our own ways we were all miserable but no one wanted to press the detonate button till bd. I look upon the options as all going forward, of course the ideal would be w and I working out what we need to do to move forward together but under no circumstances going back.
As to your questions, does it make any difference? Well yes and no. As I said your w probably meant it all but it doesn't mean she will tomorrow, next week, next month. Right now it seems to me from the info you've relayed that the absolutely best thing is for you both to have your own space. I understand your worries on what w will do when not there but right now I think the advantages of detaching will be legion.
Its not an easy thing to do and I'm still tackling it at times but being in"my space" has saved my sanity.
I'd say you really will need to drop artificial deadlines and endings though. This was what gave me hell in September with birthdays and Christmas looming I got into a constant panic and over analysed everything w said, texted etc. Once id moved I was too busy spring the place out to obsess and then one day when mil pushed my buttons one more time something changed.
Ill leave your question for wonka alone as I truly don't have the experience to answer that one right now. I can only answer most questions from my experience or feelings and right now I can say I'm sometimes lonely, I realised this situation doesn't mean losing s in fact its probably saved my future with him but I still want w to rejoin me so why wouldn't you want your w back if you still care?
If my w ultimately doesn't want to go forward I know I'll be hurt and I'll mourn but I feel more than ever I will make every effort to be happy and find someone to share my future with. Time will tell but I won't allow the same loneliness in a relationship ever again as in a lot of ways that was much, much worse.
Vanilla,
How does a two-stage D work in the UK? I'd like to learn a bit more about the process.
answers from Vanilla
1. No, even if every single word of criticism were true. W is still not accepting any responsibility for herself. At all, none. You are DBing just fine, making changes for Jim. Still not enough STFU and too much per suit. Some of this putting her R with her children as your responsibility is just unpleasant. These statements are contradicting each other and much of it is clearly lies.
Much more concise than I could muster vanilla :-)
Just to reenforce that my w has told me all the faults I had but when after counselling I simplysat down with her one morning waiting to pick up s and said all I'd needed was her to hold my hand from time to time and not always want to push me away she teared up. She's still to admit anything was her responsibility. I think a lot is in the script and, as I've said before, when we deviate its when we get radio silence or we get the barrage of what we "should" have done or the millions of reasons its our fault but never why they didn't address it at the time.
Wonka
A divorce is split into two stages at the moment. Decree Nisi and then Absolute.
https://www.gov.uk/divorce/overviewAn objection can be made by either party, a child or the courts between the two stages. I sometimes deal with the financial side of UK divorce and have certainly petitioned for a dependant when there is failure to consider an effect for a dependant.
One can also apply for legal separation
https://www.gov.uk/legal-separationHope this helps
Vanilla
Vanilla,
Not sure where you see the wriggling. could you elaborate.
I do agree with everything she has accused me of and some it was awful. there are bits of my behaviour i'm ashamed of but i'm learning from that which is all i can do. I also see the things she was/wasnt doing. for example it wasnt fun, but she has at least equal responsibility for that.
Edz,
I suspect you a correct about her moving out, it just feels very final and is when this really impacts on the kids. plus my interaction with W will drop to 3 occassions every 2 weeks (handovers and swimming). I will miss her
Wonka,
in the UK we have a two stage process, the first is the decree nisi which basically one person petitions for a divorce, there is then a 6 week waiting period and time to get consent orders in place before the issue of a decree absolute (the actual final divorce). the decree absolute wont be issued while there are outstanding issues
also in the UK you have to wait 2 years of seperation for a no fault divorce, prior to that it has to be a fault divorce. in my case the options are either adultery or unreasonable behaviour
my solicitor has recommended that adultery is more risky if she wont admit it but that i would be well within my rights to say that her behaviour has been unreasonable in that it has led me to believe that she has committed adultery
does that make sense?
Thanks Jim and Vanilla.
Jim, where do you currently stand with the separation legally? Meaning, are you and W officially separated? How long has this been going on?
The reason for suggesting to file for D is to protect yourself financially. I do worry that W is taking you for a ride that is harmful to you. As you know by now, I am not for advocating in filing for a D unless it is an ABSOLUTELY necessary step. In your case, I think it has reached the threshold.
You must look out for #1 which is you. No one else is doing that.
The wriggling is yours Jim.
Jim here is one of your early posts to me. A very good 2x4. I recollect having had a great deal of acceptance of my "faults" in my M and its demise. I felt guilty wanted to rectify and accepted the spew (contempt: I called it then) and did not want to repeat my errors (relapse). I will give you the link to my faults if needed but some overlap with yours and yes there was validity.
Here is what a very wise DBer posted to me, I return it to you with thanks, it changed my thought process.
I think I have a better understanding now and that must be really hard for you. Guilt is a big deal but accepting contempt isn't going to help you deal with that guilt, I'd question if it helps in the short term
I've felt guilty about a range of things and as a result I've caved and not had boundaries (many other reasons as well but stick with simplicity for the moment) all that happened is that I made it OK to be treated poorly - did I feel better? Not even slightly, it made me get more snarky and resentful.
Boundaries are to protect you. Letting someone else violate them isn't going to help with guilt - its just going to hurt in different ways. Making meaningful changes to you, banishing the screaming banshee, that's the stuff that will help.
Can you think of a way to tackle the fear on relapsing. If you worry about it you make it more likely.
Kindly
Vanilla
Hi Jim
You will miss her no question but, again from what you've said, is that worse than her being so near yet so apart from you? It was bad enough being surrounded by our "stuff" had she been there but not there I don't know how I would not crack and start pursuing. This is something you, vanilla and all the other dbers doing in house sep have my utmost respect for!
Please try to stop beating yourself. Yes, recognise any problems you brought, identify the faults, accept you did what you did or didn't do what you didn't but don't accept all the blame there are 2 people in a marriage so no one person can normally be responsible for its failure (except in cases of abuse). Learn about yourself, own those problems and make the changes to resolve those part of who you are for your sake not for w.
As I said before and this is important, easy to say and bl00dy difficult to do but you need to stop seeing endings and deadlines for your own sake.
If you absolutely have to have a line in the sand make it a reasonable one. I've said purely to myself - and do keep it to yourself its not for w as it would become an ultimatum - that June is my change point. by then its been a year, either w wants to make efforts to reconcile (I'm not saying reconciled just committing to it) wants to officially separate/move toward divorce or something else we've discussed. If none of these has happened I'll then start to reconsider with a councillor what comes next and if I need to take control for my future.
I would also say you and w will always be somewhat linked by the kids regardless if not as a couple and you don't feel friendship is appropriate (I covered this in my thread) then as coparenting.
Anyway you're not there yet and, as I said, its only over when you both decide it is. If w goes off but you want tokeep dbing then its not finally over, this is the mindset I've had to cram into my noggin.
Keep going mate, keep posting...
Wonka,
there isnt a legal seperation as such as we are still in the same house although you could (and she will) argue the 2 year clock started ticking when she retained a solicitor.
I expect her to file citing my unreasonable behaviour and my solicitor has said i can not agree but also not contest and that this ultimately doesnt make any difference elsewhere in proceedings
although financial consent orders and custody agreements need to be resolved before the decree absolute they are not part of the divorce process. I drafted an agreement several months ago covering this stuff (which she sought to change as of 22nd december).
from my perspective I have said to W and my solicitor that i cannot give her any money for the equity in the house unless there is an agreement that that represents the totality of my financial commitment and waves any future claims. If this can only be acheived through the divorce process so be it as i will not expose myself financial any more than i already am.
my W sees this as me 'trying to pull the wool out from under her' hence her threat to move out on the 20th and take the kids to hampshire (anytime during this process she feels i'm standing ground she threatens solicitors actions and taking the kids from me)
As for the divorce itself it seems like the only issue in me accepting the divorce is my fault is an ego thing, where as pushing it the other way risks all kinds of spew and destructive behaviour. My ego can take it and so i wasnt planning on filing
it might be we have to go through the final divorce as the only way to conclude the financial aspects which really are the only bits that matter (my rights to the kids are protected unless she starts calling the police and making stuff up)
I do still feel guilt about the things i did wrong (and they were really wrong) but very much now im in the mindset that these are what i need to change.
on my last thread i wrote a very long post about what the core issues are for me and I dont think my W's comments changed any of this.
the biggest changes in my perception relate to more memories of times when she was clear and i ignored, that our relationship wasnt fun and that i debated things unnecessarily
additional the extent to which my wife will lie also became more obvious.
I did during the conversation directly push back on some of what she said as well as how the way she said it made me feel.
Jim
You can counter file for fault if W does that first.
The courts would request mediation, this will add 6 months to the delay at minimum but not much cost. You won't have to pay a penny during that for that time plus. As I understand it W would have to file for interim relief which she is unlikely to get if you advise she is with OM1.
You could (not saying you will) cite all OMs in your petition and then they get registered court delivery. You are going to need proof if you go that route and it is a reality check. I have a friend who named 5 OWs and of course delivery would ensure that all 5 then knew about each other. Her H settled out of court in the end to avoid this. In friends case a 'courtesy' solicitor copy was sent prior to filing for real, for observations by the other party. I know games! Her H was in open awe as he didn't think she had it in her. That's a couple destined to reunite, W in that case is now a rotary superstar and H a retired has been.
Where is Starsky when you need a master at this stuff!
Vanilla
Jim,
although financial consent orders and custody agreements need to be resolved before the decree absolute they are not part of the divorce process. I drafted an agreement several months ago covering this stuff (which she sought to change as of 22nd december).
Those two issues are what urgently needs your attention in the sense you really need to spell out some non-negotiables to your L. Knowing what your wishes are, your L will be clear on those items.
from my perspective I have said to W and my solicitor that i cannot give her any money for the equity in the house unless there is an agreement that that represents the totality of my financial commitment and waves any future claims. If this can only be acheived through the divorce process so be it as i will not expose myself financial any more than i already am.
No more talking to W about those matters. From now and on, those issues must be communicated through the lawyers. Remove yourself from the process for your lawyer is there to protect your best interests and it also serves another purpose in shielding you emotionally as well.
my W sees this as me 'trying to pull the wool out from under her' hence her threat to move out on the 20th and take the kids to hampshire (anytime during this process she feels i'm standing ground she threatens solicitors actions and taking the kids from me)
Have you communicated this ^^ to your lawyer? He must be informed of everything like this so he knows what he is dealing with. She just cannot threaten you through emotional blackmail using the kids as "pawns" or imagined leverage against you. It is wrong. WRONG, WRONG!
As for the divorce itself it seems like the only issue in me accepting the divorce is my fault is an ego thing, where as pushing it the other way risks all kinds of spew and destructive behaviour.
Let W spew until she's the blue in the face!! You need to take care of yourself. She's gonna try to push every button in the world to get you to back off. That is tried-but-true trick ripped straight out of the WAW play book. Don't fall for it and turn into a wet noodle.
You got this, buddy.
Thanks for your compliment on my post. As corny as it sounds, I have switched myself into "fake it til you make it" mode and that seems to be working, at least for now.
As for your sitch, I can't give you any better advice than Vanilla and Edz as they are the best, but I am rooting for you.
Thanks all.
The question Im stuck on is what do I gain by filing?
There is a big ego thing of the paperwork saying it's her affair that caused it (had really good advice from my solicitor on thus) but it makes no real difference otherwise.
I've said clearly to all concerned that I require a 'clean break' financial settlement before paying anything - wife just doesn't want to hear this
My solicitors have precautionarily drawn up some injunction paperwork if she does try to take the kids.
So in some ways my thinking is why push it - me not reacting I think is annoying her. (Mind reading)
Vanilla thank you for the reminder about guilt. I was almost eloquent when I wrote that. All of her criticism my behaviour is 100% true and more she doesn't know - though she has my intent and feelings all wrong. I don't say thus out of guilt or to absolve her but its something I need to accept (truly accept) so that I can understand and change.
Jim,
The question Im stuck on is what do I gain by filing?
Protecting your financial assets. It's as simple as that. Your W is truly out of control and unreasonable through her shifty actions.
There is a big ego thing of the paperwork saying it's her affair that caused it (had really good advice from my solicitor on thus) but it makes no real difference otherwise.
It's self-righteous that's driving these thoughts. Those actions are designed to shame and humiliate the WAS. There's absolutely nothing to be gained from this type of action. It will only serve to reinforce the negative outlook in their heads about you. You do not want to feed into that mindset.
I've said clearly to all concerned that I require a 'clean break' financial settlement before paying anything - wife just doesn't want to hear this
Good for you!
My solicitors have precautionarily drawn up some injunction paperwork if she does try to take the kids.
Excellent move!
I think I'm obviously being really niave. I don't see my wife as out of control at all. I see someone who has made a clear decision to move on from our relationship as she doesnt value me as a partner and she is trying to make that happen as quickly as possible.
She has also met someone new that she wants to explore a relationship with but she doesn't want to admit it in case it disadvantages her or that I react badly/punitively and because she believes she hasn't done anything wrong and it's none of my business.
Other than the business with OM I don't think she is being particularly shifty. She is well practice's at cutting people from her life.
So I guess I don't see it as out if control, but actually in total control. Its when I threaten that she reacts usually with some sort of threat.
It's self-righteous that's driving these thoughts. Those actions are designed to shame and humiliate the WAS. There's absolutely nothing to be gained from this type of action. It will only serve to reinforce the negative outlook in their heads about you. You do not want to feed into that mindset.
This is why I'm reluctant to file, I know she is worried that I will. She will view it as more of the same insecure reactionary controlling behaviour that she says is part of the reason we are done. Im secure enough in my ego that as long as it doesnt harm me in any legal sense i can wear being 'at fault' besides its not like I'm blameless.
By
Not filing might appear wet noodle though.
Jim
You are not being naive just wilfully blind. If you don't take the blindfolds off then no one can do it for you. And it is truly in your interests to do so, to accept that W is way out of control and actually appears to have no real direction at all.
However I am going to venture an opinion on the filing issue. This is where the UK and the U.S. divide on legal grounds. The UK system is not in principle adversarial, but it is reactive. If you look at it you can cross petition at nisi if W goes fault on you. Please review government web site link if you do not believe me. The days of fault filing are gone, one party can allege fault and the other can deny or project back. Effectively creating stalemate. If I were game playing (and remember I am a UK tax consultant) then I would sit it out. As far as I can see you are buying out W, the power is with you. W needs speed, you can afford to wait. This is often the case when buying a business or house; one party has the upper hand because they know the other needs speed. Stalemate is in your interest once the financial settlement is agreed. Your pride is irrelevant in this and not a factor. Plus a threat of cross filing will make W pull right back, you don't need to lift a finger your L can do it. The key to keeping L costs low is to spoon feed the L with all the key financial and legal stuff. And to opt for mediation.
This is where your L is so important to you. Wonka is spot on with the principle here. If you can obtain evidence of OM1 and OM2 and anything else such as OM(latest) to be included. You know their names, so addresses not hard to get. Facebook evidence can work too, diaries, you have dates timelines from here if you can not remember. You are a smart lad and computer literate. Don't file if it isn't in your interests to do so which is my belief here. But in everything your choice. I have my financial settlement agreed so H wont get his settlement until the house is sold. Your position is stronger as you are the buyer.
It's called facing the music my friend, popping the bubble, reality check in.
In all things the kids come first and the courts always view the more stable parent as the better choice. These days that isn't automatically the mother. W is wayward it is in your interest to accept this. But no one here on this board can force you to open your eyes.
Jim you only protect yourself with your eyes wide open and that gives you the best DB opportunities.
I mean this very kindly but my 2x4 is now a 12x8
Vanilla
Hi vanilla.
I'm genuinely grateful for the input but I think I'm still just not getting something here. Sorry
*I know my wife is waywad (ongoing sexually active relationship with OM1)
* my wife is also very clear there is no way back for us.
*I have protected all my rights to the kids as far as can without significant legal escalation
*In disagreements regarding the kids my wife continues to be unreasonable but is likely to significantly escalate and has threatened such (documented with my solicitor)
*The financial settlement is still to be resolved but in truth she is trying to play me and it won't happen.
*Filing serves me little purpose at this stage except for 'statement' value
* my wife is likely being underhanded with a number of aspects but I cannot say exactly what. I do know she is clever and a very skilled manipulator but I know where my boundaries are
To go further at this stage is to escalate in a way I do not wish to or to degenerate relations further (no good for the kids). Her words don't hurt me, how I react to them is what hurts me and so I'm trying to do better to control my reactions and act like im OK regardless.
Or am I still missing something?
I should have said, to me all that ^^^^^ seems like she is in complete control I just don't like what she is doing with that.
*Filing serves me little purpose at this stage except for 'statement' value
JIm.... It sounds like a statement may need to be made... Why is she going to stop any of this behavior if you're just gonna hang around and wait for her to clear her head???
Hi vanilla.
I'm genuinely grateful for the input but I think I'm still just not getting something here. Sorry
Ok then I am not explaining in the best way for your understanding. My issue
*I know my wife is waywad (ongoing sexually active relationship with OM(1)
You may "know" but there is no challenge to this and this behaviour and the things W says you "justify" to yourself to assuage your own guilt at not being perfect. This behaviour of Ws is unacceptable no matter what you said or did.
* my wife is also very clear there is no way back for us.
then why bother? The basics of DB is that it takes one to Tango. so what? Irrelevant. That's your view of reading her mind or accepting at face value what she says. Sandi rule 100% of what they say. This W lies, spews, manipulates like the rest of the WAS who are wayward. W isn't a special snowflake.
*I have protected all my rights to the kids as far as can without significant legal escalation
I agree from what you say
*In disagreements regarding the kids my wife continues to be unreasonable but is likely to significantly escalate and has threatened such (documented with my solicitor)
No reason to disagree. She would do this anyway if it suited her purpose. She is wayward
*The financial settlement is still to be resolved but in truth she is trying to play me and it won't happen.
I agree behind you 1000%
*Filing serves me little purpose at this stage except for 'statement' value
I agree
* my wife is likely being underhanded with a number of aspects but I cannot say exactly what. I do know she is clever and a very skilled manipulator
Yes absolutely and she is wayward and Jim knows this but gives weight to all and any of W complaints, blames and spew.
but I know where my boundaries are
are you enforcing them? And what happens when W spews, do you STFU and detach?
To go further at this stage is to escalate in a way I do not wish to
that is more than enough reason!
or to degenerate relations further
This W is wayward beware!
(no good for the kids).
the kids should not be between you and W
Her words don't hurt me,
Duh! Jim I read your threads. I analysed your conversation with W on the thread above. And above you state that W is out of R forever. Can you not see this contradicts itself? You are saying you know W is wayward, she lies, manipulates is clever and yet you give credence to her words because you feel guilty. Let go that rope Jim. Yet still you state that W categorically is out of R? So you believe what she says?
how I react to them is what hurts me
how do you react to them when she is around? Are you still trying to persuade W back into an R? Jim, I absolutely think you are one of the best dads and H material here on this board but I am concerned that you don't think that because of your guilt. W spews and you guilt yourself on anything even W blaming you for her R with her children. This is one of the most hurtful things I have read and I want to shake you good and angry about it. W takes no responsibility for W, you have taken it all and then you get told when you do that you control, which you then guilt over! W is separate to you.
and so I'm trying to do better to control my reactions
Jim this W is wayward, detach !
and act like im OK regardless.
We all do this in DB act as if
Or am I still missing something?
Yes, you are missing Jim. Concentrating on the whimsy of a wayward W and not the reality of Jim. Jim is an amazing guy, has come a long way but admits to guilt. Won't tell W WTF and detach. Gives credence and power to W and none to Jim.
I would dearly love that the Jim that I think the world of to be held up in his own eyes. To lose the guilt and to march to the beat of his own drum. To recognise his wayward W behaviour as truly wayward and to cease giving any credence to what she says. To loose the guilt and to detach.
Vanilla
I should have said, to me all that ^^^^^ seems like she is in complete control I just don't like what she is doing with that.
Absolutely not. You have the upper hand here, 75% I would say.
Unless you really believe this of course and then of course she does.
vanilla
Jim,
Dude....you've got to remove those blinders for YOUR own sake.
*Filing serves me little purpose at this stage except for 'statement' value
No. It serves a HUGE purpose. Protecting yourself from financial ruin and removing yourself from a person with toxic behaviors.
* my wife is likely being underhanded with a number of aspects but I cannot say exactly what. I do know she is clever and a very skilled manipulator but I know where my boundaries are
You've done a very poor job of enforcing your boundaries because you've backed down EVERY single time W spews and issues threats all sundry. And you basically called me 'daft' for calling her shifty.
To go further at this stage is to escalate in a way I do not wish to or to degenerate relations further (no good for the kids). Her words don't hurt me, how I react to them is what hurts me and so I'm trying to do better to control my reactions and act like im OK regardless.
I think it's time to move past worrying about how W views you. Now is not the time to worry if W likes you or breaks her fingernail. Bury the Mr. Nice Guy six feet under. Put on your business hat and FIGHT for what you're entitled to....especially as a father who deserves unfettered access to his OWN children. Are your kids worth fighting for? Give it all you've got in the most important battle of your life.
You are in the battle of the Roses: York vs. Lancaster.
Wonka
We are in the Uk not US. Jim is better getting the financials done first I feel. If he files for D then this will be very difficult as the court will need to sort the Fins. W would have much more say and at the moment advantage Jim on this.
Fins first then D. I think Jim is also firmer on the Fins. But I agree once Fins done then foot down.
If W files first then Jim can counter file.
Vanilla
Vanilla, wonka, thanks
And wonka please accept my apologies, it wasn't my intent to call you daft
I think I get what you're saying now (I think).
Financially Ive done what I can to protect myself in the long-term. I have avoided the disagreements over the current monthly bills because at the moment its only £150 quid differencr or so and I'm lucky enough that I can afford this (I'm also much better off than pre-BD). It doesn't seem worth it. Anytime my wife starts on this I offer to go through all the statements with her and work it out accurately - she immediately backs down.
Next step financially is to get an informal agreement signed. This will form the consent order as part of the D and is the UK govt recommended way if doing things. For me this has to be a 'clean break' agreement so D may have to be issued to do this. It will likely screw up my wife's timeline but that's not my problem (her reaction might be). The current delay is her doing but she won't accept that so I've basically stated what I've done and what I will do next. The 'clean break' is the only sticking point and in truth I suspect she will back down when it comes to it.
Kids is more complex. Courts don't like to get involved and we have an agreement which suits us both. W keeps threatening to take the kids to MILs 3 hrs away and has previously said that I will never see them again (I've told my solicitor). In her mind, she has said this, she is already being more than reasonable by not moving permanently away. She is operating from the POV that she will win a custody battle which unless I prove she is an unfit mother (which she isn't) is 75% likely under the UK system. Its not in my interest or the kids to pull the trigger on this one, though I continue to discuss appropriate precautions with my solicitor.
She denies the adulterous relationship, which is a lie but I can't prove that. Nothing I can do except call her a liar. She has said she left me because she knew she would cheat on me because I made her 'so miserable' with my 'constant accusations'. Besides she says its none of my business as our marriage is over in anything but legal terms.
I will say again pretty much everything she has said about my behaviour in the relationship is true but only half the story. It is the half I must own. And yes given my half I can't see why she would even countenance the idea of rebuilding a marriage with me (for that matter most people don't get why I still want a relationship with her). She was properly miserable for a few years and it seems she thinks that is 100% my fault. I can't change that memory and I can't argue with it, I can only not be that guy anymore (which I'm working on). I still have a lot of guilt and anger on this but I'm working on it, let's say I'm 'in piecing' with myself. It hurts to hear it and feel it but for the most part I'm able to say 'and this is what I'm doing about that'. Not a clue how we would rebuild if it came to that.
So I suppose I see it as the consequence of her actions that I have to live with is the end of our marriage and the broken hone for our children, I'm not happy about this but there is nothing I can do to change her mind for her except show the best version of me to the extent that our interactions allow (not much chance for fun or affection). To me that means calm, open, not reactionary, not judgemental (really hard for me), and respectful of her decisions. When her spew drifted into patronising me I told her that that's what it felt like and she apologised (in a still patronising way) but then backed down.
I'm giving her exactly what she wants in so far as it doesn't compromise me in relation to the kids or the finances. To that end the rest is all on her whether she sees it or not and if its not making her happy then I know its not me despite what she says. (No guilt for me to wrestle with). I'm not stood in her way at all.
In the meantime she can spew and justify because nothing I say is going to make her realise any different, but being present, calm and not reacting with sarcasm or excuses is a big 180 for me and is something I can do. Maybe there should ve more immediate consequences to her spew but I don't see what they should be or what I gain. Im trying to be more Buddhist monk about it.
So its not quite 'frankly my dear, I don't give a damn'
Its more 'I know what I need out of this and that's what I'm going to get, and with that and my own personal growth I know I'll be fine. The rest is about want and I'm prepared to let my wants go as I don't need them'
Finally (at last you might think)
DB says not to progress the divorce let them do it all. For me this is the least inflammatory and least controlling option so makes sense and doesn't appear to do me any harm. My biggest concern is that I look weak and wet noodle doing this, if she files in the way I expect her to.
Filing (which seems to be the consensus) makes a very clear statement that I do not wish to be married to an adulterous liar (judgement) and appears/feels like shutting the door. She knows what she's losing and is overtly happy with that, so I don't think it makes her feel the loss any more just gives her another 'see look how awful he's being, accusing me of stuff' and risks her escalating.
As always I'm quite lengthy in my explanation and am grateful for you taking the time to read it and help me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I'm not detached I still want my marriage and even though I know its over I've not fully accepted that. What I have accepted is that I need to change who I am and overcome 34 years of insecurity that's has played a big part in the loss of this relationship. DB'g and the support here is helping me to do that and living those changes is the only real prospect for making my W reconsider.
Either way I do think she will have moved out and the divorce will be finalised before any reconciliation could occur. right now her focus is moving out to her own place and pursuing her relationship with OM1. In truth I think it might only be many years and several relationships down the line for her to even consider it. I won't be standing for that long, and then if it's meant to be it will be.
Vanilla, wonka, thanks
I think I get what you're saying now (I think).
Financially Ive done what I can to protect myself in the long-term. I have avoided the disagreements over the current monthly bills because at the moment its only £150 quid differencr or so and I'm lucky enough that I can afford this (I'm also much better off than pre-BD). It doesn't seem worth it. Anytime my wife starts on this I offer to go through all the statements with her and work it out accurately - she immediately backs down.
of course she will!
Next step financially is to get an informal agreement signed.
yes
This will form the consent order as part of the D and is the UK govt recommended way if doing things.
it's almost mandated
For me this has to be a 'clean break' agreement so D may have to be issued to do this.
no they can be separate. You can have the FS under S as well. You will need a CO for absolute.
It will likely screw up my wife's timeline but that's not my problem (her reaction might be).
Both are her concern
The current delay is her doing but she won't accept that so I've basically stated what I've done and what I will do next.
go at W and the courts pace.
The 'clean break' is the only sticking point and in truth I suspect she will back down when it comes to it.
Especially now she knows that you have identified OM.
Kids is more complex. Courts don't like to get involved and we have an agreement which suits us both. W keeps threatening to take the kids to MILs 3 hrs away and has previously said that I will never see them again (I've told my solicitor). In her mind, she has said this, she is already being more than reasonable by not moving permanently away. She is operating from the POV that she will win a custody battle which unless I prove she is an unfit mother (which she isn't) is 75% likely under the UK system.
the official statistic from 2011 is that one parent only orders are 15% of all orders. Don't know where you got your stats from. Of these almost half had restraint or jail. The EU influence means joint custody is almost automatic, look at the international Rights of the Child convention signed by and full endorsed by the UK court system. In cases of children as young as 3 the courts will also get the view of the child.
Its not in my interest or the kids to pull the trigger on this one, though I continue to discuss appropriate precautions with my solicitor.
Excellent
She denies the adulterous relationship, which is a lie but I can't prove that.
you don't need to. She may be questioned in court if you counter.
Nothing I can do except call her a liar.
not true. You can counter claim if she faults first. Lying in court is contempt. w knows this.
She has said she left me because she knew she would cheat on me because I made her 'so miserable' with my 'constant accusations'. Besides she says its none of my business as our marriage is over in anything but legal terms.
Spew. Besides if she is with OM court can modify any orders including custody and fins. Ws L will have told her this.
I will say again pretty much everything she has said about my behaviour in the relationship is true but only half the story.
here is the crux of your issue. This clearly is not correct. Jim you are not accepting what we tell you. w is not taking responsibility for herself. You are, stop.
It is the half I must own.
no you don't!
And yes given my half I can't see why she would even countenance the idea of rebuilding a marriage with me (for that matter most people don't get why I still want a relationship with her).
you are trying to control what she does or doesn't want!
She was properly miserable for a few years and it seems she thinks that is 100% my fault. I can't change that memory and I can't argue with it, I can only not be that guy anymore (which I'm working on). I still have a lot of guilt and anger on this but I'm working on it, let's say I'm 'in piecing' with myself. It hurts to hear it and feel it but for the most part I'm able to say 'and this is what I'm doing about that'.
good
Not a clue how we would rebuild if it came to that.
you are worrying about tomorrow!
So I suppose I see it as the consequence of her actions that I have to live with is the end of our marriage and the broken hone for our children, I'm not happy about this but there is nothing I can do to change her mind for her except show the best version of me to the extent that our interactions allow (not much chance for fun or affection). To me that means calm, open, not reactionary, not judgemental (really hard for me), and respectful of her decisions.
yes
When her spew drifted into patronising me I told her that that's what it felt like and she apologised (in a still patronising way) but then backed down.
STFU then reinforce boundary on abuse.
I'm giving her exactly what she wants in so far as it doesn't compromise me in relation to the kids or the finances. To that end the rest is all on her whether she sees it or not and if its not making her happy then I know its not me despite what she says. (No guilt for me to wrestle with). I'm not stood in her way at all.
no other way
In the meantime she can spew and justify because nothing I say is going to make her realise any different, but being present, calm and not reacting with sarcasm or excuses is a big 180 for me and is something I can do.
yes
Maybe there should ve more immediate consequences to her spew but I don't see what they should be or what I gain. Im trying to be more Buddhist monk about it.
reinforce boundary. W I feel abused when you talk to me this way and I want productive discussions. We will talk later.
So its not quite 'frankly my dear, I don't give a damn' Its more 'I know what I need out of this and that's what I'm going to get, and with that and my own personal growth I know I'll be fine.
good
The rest is about want and I'm prepared to let my wants go as I don't need them'
why would you let your wants go?
Finally (at last you might think)
DB says not to progress the divorce let them do it all. For me this is the least inflammatory and least controlling option so makes sense and doesn't appear to do me any harm.
I do not agree DB is doing what works. In most case DBers say let the other party do the work but not always. If filing protects you then do it. personally I think that fins and vol child agreement are more important for you. This first then W goes whistle on D. If she fault files, cross file that would really slow things to a slug pace.
My biggest concern is that I look weak and wet noodle doing this, if she files in the way I expect her to.
dont agree. Cross file citing OM. Get court to question her if she denies it. But you can't fault file on A first without proof, but you can counter.
Filing (which seems to be the consensus)
not my opinion but most important is your L and yours
makes a very clear statement that I do not wish to be married to an adulterous liar (judgement) and appears/feels like shutting the door.
your feeling. Vets tell us this is counter intuitive
She knows what she's losing and is overtly happy with that, so I don't think it makes her feel the loss any more just gives her another 'see look how awful he's being, accusing me of stuff' and risks her escalating.
trying to control W again! w concern not yours
As always I'm quite lengthy in my explanation and am grateful for you taking the time to read it and help me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, I'm not detached I still want my marriage and even though I know its over I've not fully accepted that. What I have accepted is that I need to change who I am and overcome 34 years of insecurity that's has played a big part in the loss of this relationship. DB'g and the support here is helping me to do that and living those changes is the only real prospect for making my W reconsider.
agree x 10
Either way I do think she will have moved out and the divorce will be finalised before any reconciliation could occur. right now her focus is moving out to her own place and pursuing her relationship with OM1. In truth I think it might only be many years and several relationships down the line for her to even consider it. I won't be standing for that long, and then if it's meant to be it will be.
trying to control W again but this time both W and the future. Concentrate on today.
Concentrate on today and Jim. We are repeating ourselves. Start a new year concentrating on Jim today each day.
Vanilla
Thanks vanilla.
NYE was very easy to focus on myself. Very unwell and in bed by 1900. Still the positive is that by virtue of 3 minutes I haven't been sick in 2015.
I will say again pretty much everything she has said about my behaviour in the relationship is true but only half the story.
here is the crux of your issue. This clearly is not correct. Jim you are not accepting what we tell you. w is not taking responsibility for herself. You are, stop.
It is the half I must own.
no you don't!
I do get that my wife isn't taking responsibility for her parts, I could list a bunch but the main thing is that she shut down on me (and everyone else) and has 'decided' that its my fault.
What I do recognise is that I could have been a much MUCH better husband if I wasn't too absorbed in my own insecurity and feeling hard done by because my wife had shut down. Im accepting that I had a significant part in the failure of my marriage (which left her open to an affair) and I need to change that stuff about me. I would have gladly done so a long time ago had I listened and understood.
Anyways today has the more pressing issue that MIL is up to stay and so I need to make things as unawkward as I can. Which in truth I guess means carrying on like nothing has happened and resisting the urge to tell MIL about OM1. Friendly house mate
Your w and my XH sound very similar. XH refuses to take any responsibility. He just wants to keep throwing in my face how good he is being to me. Ugh! Could I have been a better wife? Absolutely! But apparently he doesn't realize that's a two-way street.
Sorry to high jack your post but just wanted to say I sympathize with your sitch. Best wishes for a wonderful new year!
"Anyways today has the more pressing issue that MIL is up to stay and so I need to make things as unawkward as I can. Which in truth I guess means carrying on like nothing has happened and resisting the urge to tell MIL about OM1. Friendly house mate"
Jim!
Conversation W "MIL is coming. She is astute and will know or if she doesn't I am not prepared for an untruth to MIL. I respect MIL too much for that. Either you disclose to her the position or I will. Would you prefer us to do so together? Let me know before MIL arrives/ has tea......
Then STFU and walk away
I can't think of anything worse for your R with MIL than non disclosure. If I remember W is leaving kids with MIL when she has a play date.
Same conversation I had with H about his family, I did not lie or deceive mine.
Vanilla
Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to lie for her in the same way I won't tell my kids this is a joint decision (I have said too much to D3 - not about OM or anything though)
It almost certainly won't come up unless I initiate the conversation and I'm assuming she doesn't already know.
I know SIL was actively encouraging pursuit of OM1 within a couple of weeks if BD
If SIL was doing that, it's outrageous!
How do you 'know' this, that MIL was encouraging OM1?
Vanilla
I saw the texts.
SIL left her first husband for a married work colleague and it fits her 'me first' character. W friends and close support all take the view that I'm awful, she is a saint for putting up with me and she deserves better, and that the next guy will be it.
No idea what MIL knows or not. Or what she thinks
I spent a good couple of hours playing with the kids and chatting to MIL this afternoon. It was friendly and warm exactly like pre BD. Kids giggled their little heads off.
W was really anxious the internet was down, disproportionately so. I guess some kind of contact was cut off. She has lived in her phone for months so i guess its like an addiction.
Generally she just seemed annoyed and the more MIL and I chatted the more annoyed she got. Sane thing happens when she sees me playing with the kids it 'does her head in' or is referred to as my sickly parenting. I don't get it.
I'm not going to change how I parent though, my kids love me exactly as I am.
Jim
I am not sure I could be pleasant to a MIL like you have. That's cool cat stuff.
I would be making my self scarce!
In which case keep on and laugh up your sleeve.
Vanilla
Generally she just seemed annoyed and the more MIL and I chatted the more annoyed she got. Sane thing happens when she sees me playing with the kids it 'does her head in' or is referred to as my sickly parenting. I don't get it.
It seems to follow DB: the worst things are for her, the more annoyed she gets. You get along with MIL, she might lose an ally. You're good with the kids, it makes her look bad for leaving you (and make the kids love you more than her?). She's trying to control you by being unpleasant when you do things she dislikes. Her signals are very clear!
Jim, I agree with Mozza with this. I know I see this with my W. I will be having fun with the kids. If W see's this you can just tell she is getting pissed. She starts to give me dirty looks etc.
It is almost like they think you are trying make them look bad or something. When all you are trying to do is be a good person and father.
I guess I was just hoping that continuing to be a good dad might draw her closer rather than her seeming to dislike me more for it. I know 25 regularly says no mother is unmoved by a good father but its just not the kind if movement I wanted.
Basically no matter what I do she gets further away. DB says do what works and at this point I don't know what's working or not in relation to rebuilding my M (I know some of what's working in relation to rebuilding me)
I know what you mean, Jim. It's hard to know when something is not working vs when something hasn't been tried long enough to work. I would tend to agree with Mozza and Zed - your W is probably annoyed because it makes it harder for her to justify walking away. Give it some time. Slow is fast.
I would like to actually be able to read her mind.......
It could be the anger and annoyance is it working, that at this stage maybe its the affect I want?
I would like to think that being a good dad might make a positive difference but personally I don't think it will because that's no different to the marriage she is leaving. I think if I had been a distant, poor or uninvolved dad then maybe.
What I wasnt, was very emotionally supportive and that I don't know how to do in this situation. How to shoe life would be better
Hi Jim. Being a good dad is always attractve , even if you have always been one Sometimes it just takes time. As gamb8te says time is all important Take care. Rd
My last post should have said 'show' not 'shoe'
The joys of predictive text.
I know its about patience and consistent Positive change.
I'm pretty sure right now for her its about OM1 and moving out. What I'm doing won't have an effect unless OM1 falls through, and so I must have patience til at least then or until I've completely moved on.
The most accurate description is that right now I'm trying to attract the girlfriend of another man and her starting point is that she thinks I'm a creep.
Nothing like a challenge
Hi Jim
Just one thing I can do to settle one qualm in your mind, you know my sitch, my relation with s was claimed to be the big huge main hairy issue with w's relationship with me. Its now good, strong and fun and w is quieter than ever on the subject of r, warmer day to day but if I pushed now I imagine I'd get a nothing has changed response, not going to try it though.
As with the other replies both our w's are running to their own scripts. Will w want to come back to me even if I'm father of the year and show none of the faults she described? No idea, a good idea for me to sort those out anyway though as the worse that happens is I end up with a great relationship with s.
Nothing either you or I can do to speed this up mate, as you saw yesterday still has the Mr fixit in me screaming some days but nothing to be done except focus elsewhere.
Take it easy
Edz
Jim. You can only work on you. I know I can't talk but detaching from them is the only way. You need to be neutral to what she is doing. Do. Iife opinions ,, donts ask questions , just be you , the new improved you. Stay focused and don't let it get on top of you. Take care. Rd
I think what I was getting at us that I struggle to understand the mindset that is annoyed for me playing with our kids. Whatever the thought process that kind of reaction doesn't cone from a good place.
I'm not changing what I do with them regardless and equally until her mum directly slights me I will continue to be friendly and nice to her.
Anyway just got back from the park with the kids and W has gone to the gym for the first time in about 3 years. Must be a new year's resolution.