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afraid I have waited too long #5

Posted By: nit84

afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/18/14 12:24 PM

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...353#Post2397353

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...805#Post2423805

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...559#Post2444559

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...898#Post2477898


I hope this puts all my threads into one place. Thanks again u-turn
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/18/14 12:48 PM

Just some thoughts the morning after seeing my W for the first time in 2 months. It was nice but now I am feeling a bit low. I know as the day passes I will feel better but right now I am bumming.

I had my employer change my withholding tax to "single" just in case I have to file that way for 2015.

It took an extra big chunk out of my earnings. Now with having to pay my W spousal support plus the added deduction, it is going to make it extra difficult to keep paying all the bills. I hope at the modification hearing in Jan. I get some relief but I honestly don't think it will help all that much. I will figure something out.

Not sure if I shared this info earlier. My W rented, leased or bought a new car last week. She didn't trade the old one in because I am still part owner I guess.

This upsets me a bit because while I am trying to pay all the household bills.

She is living rent free at Grandma's and goes out and gets a new vehicle to drive around.

I feel somewhat like a fool. Maybe I shouldn't care so much about keeping a tidy household finance wise and just not worry about the consequences and spend money to make myself happy.

I keep telling myself to stay the course. it will all work out somehow but it is getting tougher and tougher to keep a PMA about my life.

These consequences that we all talk about don't seem to be hitting my W like I thought they would.

I have no regrets about standing for my M but I hope in the end I don't regret not doing something because I thought it would get me into a legal issue where it may cost me more in a financial sense down the road then if I hadn't done it.

It will get better and who knows maybe my W seeing me last night stirred up a little tingle in her.

Only time will tell and I have been given that gift
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/19/14 12:40 PM

When I got home the other night I felt compelled to email my W.

After seeing all the hard work her and my MIL put into the fundraiser. I didn't realize how involved they were in making it a success. Other people helped out but I think my W did a big % of it.

This is what I wrote:

W,
I just wanted to tell you I thought what you and your Mom did for this couple was incredible. You and your Mom plus anybody else who made this possible deserve so much credit and thanks. I am sure this couple appreciate your efforts, I do to. You have always been there in situations like this and it shows what type of person you are and it reaffirms what I already knew. If you would please extend my thanks to your Mom for me.
Take Care, H

She responded yesterday mid-morning with "Thanks"

I didn't expect anymore and was actually happy W even responded.

I do have a little regret that I didn't go over and put tickets in for the Chinese Auction. My reasoning was my W was collecting the money and I didn't want it to look like I pursuing her and taking this opportunity, where she couldn't remove herself, to force her to talk to me. I kept saying just give her space and left it at that.

I left before everything was over saying Goodbye to people as I left but I didn't say Good bye to my MIL because she was busy and I didn't say Goodbye to my W for the same reason.

I believe how I handled this function was ok. I will leave it up to guys to tell me if I did or not.

Was there something I did wrong? Could I have done a little more and not crossed a line?

I want to know for future encounters like this so I can maximize my opportunities.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/19/14 02:17 PM

*meant to say "I will leave it up to you guys" not just guys
Posted By: zew

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/19/14 03:20 PM

I think the note to your W was appropriate. You expressed appreciation for her kindness without laying it on too thick. Hard for her to get overly upset with that, isn't it. And maybe she'll remember it the next time she starts into a "Nit never appreciated anything I did..." spew; but maybe she won't because there's a hole in that bucket.

So you handled the whole event well. See? No pressure, no drama. Now leave it alone. No follow ups. No expectations. The whole point was to establish that the two of you could be at the same place at the same time without it being unpleasant, and even that was mainly for you. That's all it was, nothing more, and you succeeded.

Now, what's next on nit's path?
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/19/14 05:41 PM

Zew,

The only thing I was thinking to do next is to send a Merry Christmas email and then a Happy New Year's one. Wonka suggested this.

I was going to send her family Christmas cards like I did last year but I have decided against this.

Then the only other thing is we have a spousal support modification hearing in early Jan to hopefully lower my monthly payments due to changes in circumstances since the original hearing. These are so adversarial, That I fear it will put any progress that was made in danger.


About the only thing that bugs me now is. Does my W think that it has been too long since we S to go back and attempt to R?

Has too much water gone under bridge, too much legal stuff? Is she afraid if she comes back that my family or her family will treat her different?


Maybe she doesn't feel this way at all and it is just me wanting her back that is causing me to not be able to let this go.

I will fine if we D, I just don't want it to come to that.

I just don't know how to get it across to her that all that stuff can be taken care of or will take care of itself.

Any attempt I make at this will be considered pursuing or neediness.

My W and I have had only 2 face to face meetings in 3 months since she moved out.

She emailed me 2 times and I responded both times. I emailed her 2 times and she responded once.

I know there is nothing that can be done about this abundance of no contact but it still stinks.

The reason I think there is little contact is because my W doesn't trust me when it comes to the financial settlement. Unless it isn't a matter of that all and she is just trying to take me to the cleaners.

I had what I thought was a fair proposal in response to my W offer.

Appearantly, her L and her don't think so because they said they will wait till the (their) 2 year S date and go to court. so they don't want to negotiate any more until then.

If my W wanted D so bad the only reason they wont negotiate has to be because it is a money thing to her L and/or her.

My proposal basically said I would refinance the house assume all my W debt and give her 50% of our retirement. Property would be split how we saw fit but my W has already taken things that I didn't get a chance to discuss if I wanted or not including our Cat.

There is resentment about the house because although she has no interest in wanting it, she never thought that our financial plan from 5 years ago would ever be possible but now it is and she mad because she says you should have refinanced this 3 years ago.

I explained her that we tried and it wasn't possible at that time due to debt to equity ratios.

My W then said "Well if you refinance the house it makes it easier to keep".

I said "You asked me to see if indeed I could be eligible to refinance so I went and found out I could and now I am sorry that upsets you."

Everything my W and I discussed financially 5 years is now possible and if she hadn't jumped ship or at least tried to work on the M instead of finding OM, we would be in a great financial position now.

All the other problems we had needed to be fixed so I understand why she thought she had no other choice but to leave the M but She was already "done" and when all this financial stuff and my changes appeared it has made her mad. she said "Why do all this stuff now?" I validated her but it made her mad.

I can't say that she has regretted the way she has handled things but sometimes I wonder.
Posted By: zew

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/19/14 07:14 PM

Quote:
About the only thing that bugs me now is. Does my W think that it has been too long since we S to go back and attempt to R?

Has too much water gone under bridge, too much legal stuff? Is she afraid if she comes back that my family or her family will treat her different?

Nit, this is all unknowable, and it is keeping you spinning instead of moving forward.
I used to wonder the same thing, but I don't anymore. I reason that I know my W can be very determined. If she wants something, she will fight to get it. I also know that if she isn't fully committed, I simply don't want to take on the risk. And so now I rarely think about it. She will either come back full force, or the wheels of D will churn and spit us out the back end.
Either way, I'm ahead. I end up with someone who is all in, or decidedly out. If she doesn't come back, the whole process will have taken about 2 years by the time it's over, and I think that's a generous amount of time to give someone to figure out their stuff.

Quote:
I will fine if we D, I just don't want it to come to that.

I just don't know how to get it across to her that all that stuff can be taken care of or will take care of itself.

Any attempt I make at this will be considered pursuing or neediness.

You're saying the right words, but you aren't convincing me that you've accepted them.

Nobody wants the D (at least initially). You can't stop it. So stop dwelling on it not being what you want. Figure out what you will be doing if it does happen, and move in that direction today. If she stops the D, it's all upside.

And you can't get anything across to her. She has to figure this out on her own. She will or she won't. And you want her to figure it out on her own. The last thing you want is a rescue W, unsure of whether she's coming or going. She's going to make her determination based on what she sees, nit. Show her a confident man, moving in a straight line, who seems to be getting farther away.

Quote:
I had what I thought was a fair proposal in response to my W offer.

Apparently, her L and her don't think so because they said they will wait till the (their) 2 year S date and go to court. so they don't want to negotiate any more until then.

If my W wanted D so bad the only reason they wont negotiate has to be because it is a money thing to her L and/or her.
As I understand your state correctly, she has no grounds for D, so if you don't agree to a "mutual consent" D, she pretty much has to wait out the 2 years. That means 2 years of you not giving her grounds. If she isn't in immediate need of the settlement, and the S isn't affecting her carefree lifestyle, it's a strategy to make you want to negotiate a bad deal to get your freedom sooner. Or she runs out the clock because it doesn't impact her at all.

Remember too that the strategy is likely being driven by her L, who is obligated to look out for her financial interests, not you, your feelings or your M. You can't blame a shark for being a shark.

And all that stuff about your financial plan. Just stow it. She doesn't care. It doesn't matter to her. (It may later when it's gone, but she's not there yet.)

Nit, you are still letting your W completely control your life, and it's making you miserable. Break the pattern.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/20/14 12:36 AM

Nit,

Glad to hear that the fundraiser went really well and it was as Zew said drama-free. Score 1 for Nit. smile

I want to remind you to send a very short and simple "Merry Christmas" text to W. You mused that you felt that W isn't feeling the consequence of her choices. She probably is to a certain extent. My sense is that she will most probably feel them after The D is final and all of the financials settled.

Let me share a bit about my own experience. As you may know, I had my own MLC and dropped the bomb on Ms. Wonka's birthday (yeah, I won the Spouse of the Year award :/). I did face the consequences of my choice such as: 1) Ms. Wonka left me for OW 2) Our house got sold 3) I suffered a bit financially due to the split 4) I berate myself t times for the BD and the subsequent fallout.

Finally, a D is just a proclamation that you're no longer married from a legal standpoint. As you can read in the forums, people DO reconcile even long after a divorce. There's always hope.
Posted By: zew

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/20/14 01:16 AM

Quote:
Finally, a D is just a proclamation that you're no longer married from a legal standpoint.
Wonka, i still struggle with this. You see, it's more than that. Right now, I have a financial plan that gets my house bought, my kids through college and my W and I into our mid 80's in retirement. If we D, my W takes a substantial chunk of that, and she has never had a $ that she didn't spend twice. So in the interim between D and any possible post-D R, we will likely lose 10 years and the kids education, and I'm at the age where I don't have that horizon anymore.

It's an issue that I'm still ruminating, if only in the hypothetical, since we are still diverging. If W comes back post-D, what was that? Just a ploy to get primary ownership of assets from Zew, that money controlling bastard? I can get over A's, but can I get over that, since to me it robs the kids? (These are my hells.)

Sorry for the sidetrack Nit.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/20/14 01:31 AM

Zew,

Thanks for the comments!!


"You're saying the right words, but you aren't convincing me that you've accepted them.

Nobody wants the D (at least initially). You can't stop it. So stop dwelling on it not being what you want. Figure out what you will be doing if it does happen, and move in that direction today."


I feel like I know what I will be doing if we D but until the D actually happens. I cant fully do what I see myself doing, which is meeting someone and having a great time together and see where it leads. I will not date until I am completely D. This is very important to me. I am not trying to be better than anybody that is S and has chosen to date. I just feel differently about the dating while M issue.


In my state my W thinks she has grounds for D but doesn't want to go that route to save money and reputation.(her words)

She has not asked me to agree to "mutual consent" D, all we need is a fair settlement and I would agree to sign that type of D. We have no children so it is the house, the retirement, and the property that is it. My proposal allowed for my W to walk away debt free with half the retirement of which she contributed 20% and as far as property there is only a few things I really wanted after the furniture was divided but my W already took a lot of the stuff that wasn't even discussed. That honestly doesn't bother me except for our cat.

So there really is not much negotiating that's needs done for a settlement to be in place IMHO.

Her proposal had me paying off all the debt and refinancing the house which is fine but she wants to say that all of the marital debt(credit cards) is all my responsibility. and therefore is asking in essence for an 90%/10% split of the retirement because she makes less than me. They are taking random financial numbers and arranging them in a way that isn't possible. I agree with all the figures. it is just how they are using them. They are taking things from when they say we S and then taking number from right before I was served the D complaint it has to be one or the other. The numbers right before the D complaint are obviously higher because they had 11 months to grow. She thinks the house is worth 33,000 higher then the Appraisal I had done.

her L said they will wait to do their own appraisal till closer to the court date. This is in hopes the house value comes in higher.


My L says I have more than enough intel to file D on adultery but I don't want to do this at the moment because things aren't all that rosy with my W and her OM. Not saying if that fizzles she will come back but I don't want to drag her though the mud because the A is not a dealbreaker for me.

I think that is more the reason my W won't file on certain grounds. Because what she is alledging is a little bit hard to prove according to my L. I believe she knows that what intel I have will make adultery grounds a viable option for me.

None of it really matters in the end so if we could agree on a settlement, things could be over relatively soon. I know I can't stop it so if we can agree then we can go our separate ways

All that financial talk was 5 months ago and hasn't been brought up since. I provided the info for so people on here would know a little about my frustration.


I don't believe my W is completely controlling my life. I still GAL I have done some 180's that my W has noticed and they upset her. Most of my changes have stuck. the ones that haven't are ones that need money to continue which is running low at the moment.


I do still want to R so in that regard you are correct in saying my W has some control over me. I don't know what to do other than date someone that will make it look like I am moving further away. I used to text her at least twice a week last year. I don't do that any more. I could email her a lot more but I haven't. I could go to where my MIL bartends and whine to her. I don't do that.

When she was living here with me I would make it appear like I possibly had a date and GAL. She is not here so that is off the table. I just do what I want. Whether that be go to a movie, or sit at home and watch a sports event. I don't sit around hoping she pulls in the driveway and comes flying into my arms. I use my dreams for that stuff.


I understand that it has to be her decision to come back and that is what bothers me. She get frustrated easily and quits on things. She holds grudges against people for reasons that are her own. She gets upset when things that she thought would be one way turn out to be another. I have all of this working against me.

Everybody on here has that working against them.

I suppose I could send the LRT letter but I don't feel I can do that yet and make it stick.

I believe you are correct when you say what my W is doing is strategic in nature. Maybe that will change depending on how the Modification hearing goes. I will continue IMC appointments till they no longer help and I will pray for the best outcome. Whatever that is.

Lets say that in a couple months I believe I have become a person only a fool would leave and friends and family concur. The problem is this person I will have become still upsets my W. What do I do then?

She is upset now and most likely she will remain upset in a couple months from now. What will change for me? I probably will be doing GAL, The 180's will be true changes if they aren't already and I will still be in IMC. So I guess more of the same but in a good way. Her loss but that doesn't make me say "Oh well, I tried and shut any possibility of a R out of my mind" It will just be further down the line.

I do have this little bit of fear that if we do D and I have become this man that only a fool would leave. I would be able to be that person for someone new without a problem going forward. But every chance I got I would show what a fool my W was/is for not believing in me enough to try and save our M.

Zew, I hope you don't take what I have typed as me dismissing what you are saying. It is not that at all. I have a hard time putting exactly what I mean in words or text.

That is not lost on me as a contributing factor for why I am where I am at in my M.

You have always given me straightforward advice and opinions as has a lot of the other vets and it is greatly appreciated and I hope you and others continue to do so.

I know what I want, I don't know how to get there at the moment. If I don't get what I want I will still be ok, I will just be doing it with someone new and be much poorer.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/20/14 02:38 AM

Zew, You just touched on some of my exact feelings with your response to Wonka.

That might be why I am fighting so hard now while we are still M.

If we get D my W gets money that was supposed to be for both of us in our retirement years. If she gets what she wants.

She probably cashes in the money, pays the taxes and puts a down payment on a house. All great things to start over with.

Not my fight but my W has been trying to get OM a job for about 5 months now.

This is a possible scenario as I see it.

We D and W does what as I said above. She moves in OM with no job but supports him for awhile. All the sudden she loses her job and without any income loses the house and probably OM. Tries to come back to me and I say nope then I am the bad guy. I never loved her and if I did I would take her back.

Only Problem she had an A, we D not by my choosing, and SHE squandered half if not more of our Savings. Easy to get resentful even if I have become a man only a fool would leave.

That is why I struggle with this, not because I cant live without my W but because I don't want to be that person who cant forgive a person I love with all my heart.

Then she will feel the Consequences but so what at that point. She may have already hawked the Engagement ring, I don't know this for sure but that would hurt and certainly smell of someone who is greedier than normal.

I also thought of this and know I can't do anything about it. What if the reason my W doesn't want any type of counseling, whether it be MC or IC is because it bothers her what she may find out. Throughout our M she would mention "maybe I need to see somebody" I told her if that is what she thought then I support her. She was in counseling when she was younger, 12 yrs old, after her Father passed away suddenly in front of her.

When I brought up MC before the S she would say ok then no then ok than no. After the S I started IMC and asked her after about 4 session if she would go. She said no she doesn't think counseling works for anybody let alone us. I never asked again.

In a conversation back in July we were heatedly discussing the possible A and I mentioned that some people(this is the true people have asked) and my L asked if I thought my W was mentally stable. I told her I told them I did think she was mentally stable( I believed it at the time, not so sure now). I then said some even asked if you were Bi-Polar, She went through the roof mad. I calmed her down and said I didn't think that was the case.

Not saying IC or MC for my W saves our M but it would help her out down the line in her new life. I don't want bad things to happen to my W if we D. I just want her to make sure that is truly how she feels before we ink the paper. That way it lessens the possibility of bad things happening to her and her turning back my way for help.

I help people in need that has always been my way and it would be extremely difficult to turn away the person who I love more than anything but myself if she needed it.

I guess what I am trying to say is if we D, It will make things much easier if good things happen to my W rather than bad for my sanity and well being.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/20/14 03:30 AM

Wonka,

I will run what I want to send past people on here before I do it.

I have a friend who was a mutual friend of my W and I. My W no longer speaks to her because she feels that this friend is on my side and cant be partial. My friend disagrees with my W on the issue of partiality but oh well.

She was the one that walked away from her girl friend, She shared every detail with me about what it was like to be the one who walked away from a good thing. She thinks my W is going through what she did. The grass is greener type stuff. She then said that thank GOD she woke up before it was too late. This Happened 23 yrs ago and now they are M. I grew up with her W but I am much closer with this friend who I have known for about 7 yrs vs her W who I have known for 30 yrs.

She believes I am doing all I can and feels like you, that at some point my W will hit rock bottom or face some consequences. She says she won't seek out my W but if my W ever wanted to talk she would have no problem relaying the same story to her and would respect both my W and mine privacies. I believe she could do this if the chance presented itself. She knows about OM not because I told her but because other people have. She also knows OMW and their kids are good friends. What a mess!!

She was very candid with me about the person I was before the split and is amazed at the person I am now. She goes as far as telling me I have taught her so much about how to handle relationships that she feels it allowed her to feel confident in getting M just this past Summer.

She also Shared her battle against Bi-Polar. While not a Psychiatrist, she explained what she thinks caused a lot of her issues and how she has worked through them with the help of medication.

I am not saying that my W is Bi-Polar but some of her actions and the way she thought going back through our M is puzzling and the fact that she basically admitted more than once that "maybe I should see somebody" bums me out. Should I have insisted that she see someone instead of just supporting her if she did?

I am trying not to give my W a pass but from knowing what I do from my friend it does make it easier maybe knowing that my W has some of the same feelings as my friend did back then. My friend came out of an A to R with her W. Then it is possible for my W to do the same. I just have to stay the course and Pray.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/21/14 05:27 AM

I just got home from watching a great band at a local establishment. Some mutual friends of mine and my W invited me out. It was nice but a little difficult to talk so I stayed for two sets then left.

Met some new people but I also saw a lot old familiar faces. We all had a good time and no one brought up my Sitch. Not even Me... HaHa
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/24/14 07:53 AM

This is the E-mail note I want to send my W.

W,
Just wanted to drop you a note to wish you and your family A Very Merry Christmas.
Take Care, H

I am not sure which email to leave this on She has answered the work email a couple of times and not the home. Maybe the home one changed since she moved in with GrandMa. Should I leave it on both anyway?
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/24/14 01:10 PM

Anybody have any contact with MrBond?

He was always very helpful to me and I haven't seen him on here lately.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/24/14 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: nit84
This is the E-mail note I want to send my W.

W,
Just wanted to drop you a note to wish you and your family A Very Merry Christmas.
Take Care, H

I am not sure which email to leave this on She has answered the work email a couple of times and not the home. Maybe the home one changed since she moved in with GrandMa. Should I leave it on both anyway?


Nit,

It's a nice message and I'd send to both of her addresses.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/25/14 01:50 AM

Wonka,


Thanks, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to You and Yours
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/29/14 09:58 PM

I am on MWD email list also and got her Email this morning.

As I looked at the list of things for the new year, I am happy because I have already been doing some of those things.

I haven't gotten a response from W on the Christmas Wishes I emailed to her. I wasn't expecting anything big but a "same to you" would have been nice.

This happened on Christmas eve as I was going to help my friend at her Pet Grooming Salon.

I stopped at my normal morning coffee place but it was about 3 hrs later than usual since I was off. I recognized the car in the lot. It was the OM. I had never seen him up close but when I looked up he was sitting in the booth directly in front of my car. I don't know if he has seen pictures of me but when I entered the shop. He and the man he was sitting with didn't turn to look at me and kept stuffing their faces.

I was cheery and when I went in the counter attendant who I know said good morning to me and when she said my name OM turned to look and then quickly turned away. I got my Coffee and left but sat in my car for a couple extra seconds for the hell of it. I then left. Not sue if this had anything to do with the no response to my email or maybe it was the fact that my W saw me in the same parking lot as her a couple days before this. I was leaving as she was coming.


Then there is this. I did my normal Christmas breakfast at my Sister's house then I went home and relaxed the entire day. It was nice and I didn't really mind being alone. I had the opportunity to go to a dinner at my Aunt's house but I wasn't invited by her it was my Mom that asked if I wanted to go. I am sure it would have been no problem but still liked the relaxing Christmas. When I was with my W On Christmas we always had 5 places to go and it was hectic. I told my W I couldn't wait till we had kids so people had to come see us instead of the other way around.

In the midst of my relaxing I received intel from 2 different people. The 1st person told me That OM was at the place his kids were On Christmas eve till about 2 AM. Then he was back at 8 AM and was there all day. Not surprising because his kids were there.

The 2nd person told me that my W was at her Grandmother's, where she is staying, All night Christmas Eve and was also there Christmas Morning and Christmas Night. I am sure in the afternoon she was at her Mom's house which was where we always were Christmas afternoon.

The only reason I even bring this up is this. I chose to be by myself on Christmas and was perfectly fine with it. It was my choice.

This could be mind reading but somehow I don't think my W was happy with the way her holiday went. I mean the OM who supposedly cares for her spent most if not all his Holiday with his family as he should.

This must have been very tough on my W. This was her choice though to get involved in an A. Not my Problem that OM is still intimate with the mother of his children and most likely is lying to my W about it. Maybe she doesn't mind at all and it is just a physical thing they have. I don't want to see her being used but again this isn't my problem.

Trying now to focus on Spousal support modification hearing next week. Later in the week, I will run some stuff past the board in case there are discussions. I would like to be prepared.


One last thing. Should I send the New Year wishes as I planned?

Considering she didn't respond to the Christmas email, would I look foolish or would I be taking the high road as a confident happy Man that I am becoming again by sending the wishes?
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/29/14 10:08 PM

Nit,

Glad to hear that you enjoyed Christmas despite running into OM. Glad you went inside the coffee shop instead of turning around. Good for you!

What you just did ^^ about W is an awful lot of mind reading. She's on her own journey.

With the impending hearing coming up soon and the lack of response from W, I wouldn't send a HNY text to W.

I hope you have plans for New Year's.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/29/14 10:38 PM

Wonka, Yes, I have fun plans for New Year's.

Yes, I agree it is a lot of mind reading, I guess my point is I was happy to spend Christmas the way I did because it my choice.

After talking to Women who have been in A. All three said the same thing, " I had no choice.It stunk being the OW on Holidays because you knew you couldn't be with OM because of his family obligations." they went on to say that after they realized that even though OM was saying things to keep them around they woke up and figured out that there really wasn't a future with OM because he would always choose his kids over them. If OM didn't then he was a big jerk. The guilt got to the these because they knew they were home wrecker but the addiction was strong. What upsets me is that these women woke up and R with their H or W why can't my W? Sorry a little self pity there.

I guess that is what I am hoping that happens to my W.

I am a bit worried about the support hearing though. I hope my W doesn't accuse me of things that aren't true. My L told me it is up to me at this point if I want tell my W that I talked to OMW and what I know about A. It should have no bearing on this hearing but may help down the road at the D hearing if it goes that far.

I am confused on what to do. I could in a calm manner explain to my W what I know but she will most likely Deny any wrongdoing. I guess I will wait to the outcome of this 1st hearing then decide.


Thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/29/14 10:59 PM

Nit,

Telling W at the hearing that you know about the affair will accomplish what goal???

Nothing.

Precisely.

And for an added emphasis, I'd refer you to 25's most excellent post in Mahhhty's thread on the subject of OM/OW.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/29/14 11:55 PM

Thanks Wonka

I will look at 25 post
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/30/14 01:02 AM

Wonka, Thanks for telling me to look at 25's post to Mahhhty.

It gave me a lot to think to think about. I don't want to be vindictive with my W. I know it is not my battle but I feel sorry for my W and Honestly for the OMW.

First, my W is being a "home wrecker" OMW words not mine. I believe my W is being used... again not my problem but if this were happening to a friend I would feel the same way. Second, The OWM wants her sitch to turn around for her kids who are really upset "MOM and Dad are having problems."

My L says it may help a little when it comes to division of assets if an A is proven.

If my W would just be fair about a settlement we could go our separate ways. I am trying to protect myself. I don't want to force my W back to me. I want her to truly miss me and then maybe want to work on the M. early in the S she said in her mind we are S so anything she does is not my business. This is true but I can't just roll over and allow my W to expect a large settlement because I make more than her. There is a lot of resentment in her settlement proposal. The reason I was thinking about saying anything about the OW is to see if she admits to the A and allow for renewed settlement negotiations. I don't want my M to end but if is going to I want to be as protected financially as possible. Maybe there is a better of handling this but I am unsure of what it is.

I am sure W L has advised her against any admission of an A if he knows anything about it.

I understand this is all the W choosing but I sure don't want her to jeopardize my Financial future because she wants her freedom from our M. I have tried to be fair I don't want her to suffer either but her current settlement demands are outrageous and full of venom.


I have decided against talking to my W or bringing up the A at the hearing. I will hope nature takes its course on this A.

Thanks again for the feedback. This is the kind of thinking I want to do.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/30/14 01:15 AM

Nit,

Originally Posted By: nit84

I understand this is all the W choosing but I sure don't want her to jeopardize my Financial future because she wants her freedom from our M. I have tried to be fair I don't want her to suffer either but her current settlement demands are outrageous and full of venom.


This is where your focus needs to be at the moment. Please don't lose the sight of it.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 12/30/14 01:40 AM

Wonka,

Trying my hardest, Thank you!!
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/02/15 02:52 AM

Happy New Year All!!

Now that the holidays are over. I have turned my attention to my Spousal support Modification hearing next week. I have prepared a lot of different breakdowns of how things could be even. I just don't know what to expect from the hearing officer and that is troubling me a bit. I know I can't control the ruling and I have to keep my calm.

I have a question on how to handle possible communications with my W.

If before the hearing she asks to talk with me do I oblige her or ask that we maybe wait and talk after the hearing at someplace we are both comfortable with?

If she asks to talk after the hearing I guess I will ask her the same thing.

If we do talk no matter if it is before the hearing or sometime after the hearing I will try to adhere to DB principles.

I hope she doesn't bring up OMW to try to get me to divulge info. How do I remain mysterious about what I know without lying to my W.

I don't want to discuss the A in any way. If my W brings something up about it what do I do?
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/04/15 09:56 PM

Just putting this out there for anybody to comment on.

For New Years a lot of my friends were posting things about their year, on a social media site, that was 2014. I did the same maybe I went overboard not sure. It wasn't directed at anyone specific not even my W.

So not to risk exposing the identities of anybody or myself here is the jist of what I said.

"I have had ups and downs this year we all have. I set out to change and think I have somewhat that makes me happy."

"I have lost some friends not sure if it was my changes or not but they can always back."

"No resolutions for 2015 just be a better person. If you want to change you can do it but you have to put in the work. Don't let changing become addicting while you are changing you must also live. It doesn't matter how long it takes to change just don't compromise yourself while doing it. Otherwise you might get to where you are going but you wont have anybody to share it with."




I received the obligatory 100 likes and 20 comments that were nice.

This morning I got a comment from a mutual friend at around 1:00 a.m. so alcohol could have been involved.

This is what she wrote, "Saying all this chit doesn't do anything to make up for what has already been done. good luck.

I wasn't shocked by the comment, in fact, My first thoughts were, Absolutely!


I private messaged her back this morning just saying that" I couldn't agree more with her comment. I am and have been trying to change for a long time and want my actions to show that."

"You should know how much I have wanted to change from our conversation from way back before this whole thing started. That talk was great, you offered some advice I took some it and it has helped me I want to thank you for that."

"I mentioned the things I have done not for praise but to show people who struggle with these things it can be done if you want it bad enough." These things were stopping smoking and drinking.

I went on " I hope what I said about losing friends didn't upset you. It was not meant for you I consider you a very good friend."

"What is happening between W and I, I am keeping to her and I. This is a very personal ordeal for me and I am treating it with the respect it deserves. I know W is also. I cant control what W says about me if she is even saying anything. I only control myself."

"These changes are for me if they help me and the W out wonderful if not they still have helped me out."

" I hope you still consider me a friend. If you have any thoughts I am willing to listen or if you ever need me I will be there for you if you want me to be."

Did I screw up by 1) posting anything to begin with. 2) by responding to my friends comment?

Keep in mind that my W and MIL has completely blocked me and my family. I know who might be moles amongst the mutual friends we still share. I am very careful with what I post and what I say because of this. I can't help but think that what I posted got back to my W and MIL. I really don't care that they know. The post wasn't for them, about them or posted to get a reaction from them. It was just how I felt about my year knowing full well that once it is out there it is out there.

I still would love to sit down with my W and in a calm manner discuss our issues. I know this probably will probably never happen but it is on my list.


Thoughts appreciated
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/04/15 10:14 PM

Nit,

It sounds like you're trying too hard to make your case with this "friend" by telling her instead of showing your changes. The best course of action would have been not responding to her and just focus on yourself.

I'd stop doing those messages or making grand pronouncements. Just allow for the changes you've been made to be seen to be believed. There will be some people who look at things negatively and will not change at all

Ignore the naysayers for they have not walked in your shoes. I am sure some people don't have a high opinion me and that's fine with me. The only approval I seek is mine and mine alone. Don't be offended by other people's ignorance.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/04/15 11:09 PM

Wonka, I agree with you on the grand pronouncements. I was just going along and participating in something that my friends were doing. Most likely I did over do it.

I don't let the Naysayers get to me anymore, go back some months and you will see I was having a problem with that. I feel that I have worked through that issue.
This "friend" has seen my changes firsthand and I thought supported them. No smoking and Drinking anyways. The other changes I have made She would have no way of knowing them because I am not around her enough. My W could have mentioned things I was doing I guess. Probably in the "too little too late" mode.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion and that is all the comment was was her opinion. Maybe in her own private life things that sre going on with me happened to her and she just is letting me know her feelings. I just wish she would have done it a little more privately.

If my W has said something that has made this "friend" form a negative opinion of me so be it. Not for me to worry about.

One thing I said to this "friend" that I don't care if it gets back to my W is how mine and my W communication skills stink and that is a big reason why we are where we are. I know it won't help the sitch any and might even hurt it but I wanted my W to maybe hear this from someone other than me. When I attempted to validate my W on this subject way back it just upset her even more so I know she didn't hear what I was trying to say. She might not hear it when it comes from another either but you never know.

Not sure if all this came about because of the holidays or not. Maybe it is because of the hearing in a few days. I suppose we will find out.

I know I can't fully be prepared for how this hearing will affect the future and that makes me nervous. I can be in the same room with my W no problem. It will be what she says good or bad that is somewhat unnerving. I have so many things I want to say to her that I know won't help so I will remain calm and try to validate if she gets upset. She is the one who wants this and has proceeded legally to try and get what she wants or thinks she deserves. I am only protecting myself and that upsets her. Why do these things have to be so adversarial?

I will let my L handle the legal side of things it is just what happens when W and I alone that I want to try and be prepared for.

This happened the last time we had a hearing and it wasn't pretty the more I empathized and validated the more my W got angry. It all even continued once we got back home and the same thing happened only this time I was able remove myself from the confrontation. I should have left earlier than I did but I did leave to allow things to calm down somewhat.

My W has her own problems she must deal with. She blames me for a lot of it. Some things are justified others are most certainly not.

I hate this but it is what it is.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/06/15 12:56 AM

There will be no winners at the hearing tomorrow.

Depending on who comes out "ahead" I guess will determine how talkative or nastily silent my W will be.

I do wonder and maybe someone has had this happen in their sitch.

I know there are stories about R on the way to sign the D papers.

They are truly miracles. Now that we are at the spousal support stage and a little beyond because I am fighting to have it lowered. What is the % of R after this has happened?

My W says no negotiations till the 2 yrs date but her date and my date differ so it most likely will be up to the courts to decide which one will hold precedent. If it is hers that will be in 6 months mine would be 17 months. I have been given the gift of time but now I feel some pressure of a deadline.

This is even more pressing now that W has moved out and can't see my changes any longer.

I can forgive the A if my W is willing to work on things(at this moment my feeling is she is not ready). I sit patiently and keep doing what I think will help and not doing things that I think will hurt. It is agonizing to sit and think Am I doing enough? because I an willing to do more. What that "more" is I haven't a clue. Waiting for the A to cool isn't so bad because they almost always do right?

I don't compare myself to OM but I wonder if my W is just having the A to spite me.

OM has no job, has 2 children (11) and one younger then that. He is only 1.5 younger than me and is still at the house owned by OMW all the time accept when he is at the gym or at night staying at a friends house(not where my W is staying). I know most women have A for the emotional aspect and my W was not the Nympho type so I don't think it is for the sex only.

Do woman really do things just to get back at men for what they feel was a horrible M?

Sorry went on a little ride there but I do think of things and scratch my head.
Posted By: DaddyLongShanks

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/06/15 01:26 AM

Originally Posted By: nit84
There will be no winners at the hearing tomorrow.

Depending on who comes out "ahead" I guess will determine how talkative or nastily silent my W will be.

I do wonder and maybe someone has had this happen in their sitch.

I know there are stories about R on the way to sign the D papers.

They are truly miracles. Now that we are at the spousal support stage and a little beyond because I am fighting to have it lowered. What is the % of R after this has happened?


Don't know.

Originally Posted By: nit84


My W says no negotiations till the 2 yrs date but her date and my date differ so it most likely will be up to the courts to decide which one will hold precedent. If it is hers that will be in 6 months mine would be 17 months. I have been given the gift of time but now I feel some pressure of a deadline.

This is even more pressing now that W has moved out and can't see my changes any longer.


It's easier to make changes when they are not able to monitor or see you very often. Do it for yourself.

Originally Posted By: nit84

I can forgive the A if my W is willing to work on things(at this moment my feeling is she is not ready). I sit patiently and keep doing what I think will help and not doing things that I think will hurt. It is agonizing to sit and think Am I doing enough? because I an willing to do more. What that "more" is I haven't a clue. Waiting for the A to cool isn't so bad because they almost always do right?


Haha. It's funny. As long as you support them, that A can go on for ever. Once you pull your emotional and financial support many of the affair partners did not sign up for all that, so they will pull out.

Originally Posted By: nit84


I don't compare myself to OM but I wonder if my W is just having the A to spite me.


With all the Ashley Madison's, all the shoes on TV, all the GNO's, all the propaganda... It's in the back of their mind. So wifey may cheat on someone who is the exact opposite of you just because. Because what you are now no longer "attracts" her.

Originally Posted By: nit84


OM has no job, has 2 children (11) and one younger then that. He is only 1.5 younger than me and is still at the house owned by OMW all the time accept when he is at the gym or at night staying at a friends house(not where my W is staying). I know most women have A for the emotional aspect and my W was not the Nympho type so I don't think it is for the sex only.


Wife may not been the nympho type with you, but what about with him? Perhaps she's a raging sex maniac with the guy. Affairs do bring that out in people.

Most of your posts are worried about your wife and what she thinks and your changes, that she can see them. What about YOU and your own needs? Aren't your needs important? Isn't what you think important?



Do woman really do things just to get back at men for what they feel was a horrible M?

Sorry went on a little ride there but I do think of things and scratch my head.


[/quote]
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/06/15 04:01 PM

Well the modification hearing is in a few hours.

Not really nervous just want to get it over with.

I have prepared as best I can I feel. Nothing is in my control though when it is in the court system.



One of my friends who used to be a mutual friend of both my W and I, Just texted me and reminded me that she still does want to be friends with my W and if I talk to her to relay that message. My W ended a friendship with this person because she felt like they dropped her for me. That was never the case but it is how my W feels.

I told this friend I would relay the message to my W.

More later I suppose
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/06/15 06:02 PM

Nit,

Stand tall with a straight back and be calm with a confident demeanor. STFU and let your L do all of the talking.

As for the friend, I would simply tell W that this person is interested getting touch with you. Then leave it at that. Their friendship is between them. W has her own reasons and they are hers to own alone.

Good luck!
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/07/15 03:41 PM

Thanks Wonka, I basically did exactly like you said above.

It didn't go as I had hope for and their was some problems at the very end not bad just me getting upset where I think I had right to be. I will let the board decide if I was justified or not.

More later because I am at work.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/07/15 03:45 PM

THanks for the thoughts DLS!!

I will respond to some of your comments when I can. Thanks again
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/07/15 08:59 PM

Still at work but bored.

DLS, You couldn't be more correct this OM is completely opposite of me in everyway. Some of which I will not go into. other things I have already posted about.

Yes, my needs are important but I put them on the back burner for now while I am standing for my M. Rest assured though I have a vision what my life will look like if I end up D.

You are correct when you say that maybe now she is a raging nympho. When we first dated she was very sexual for about 5 months. then after I was hooked it slowed down. If she is like that now it is to attempt to hook OM and then her pattern will repeat. IMHO.

All my changes are for myself, I just hope that at some point my W will trust these changes she sees will stick. That is up to her not me.

I still love my W but I also realize she may never come back. Our interaction is still very tense. Mostly on her side but I have my moments. I wish no ill will on my W. Just would like to her face some consequences of actions.

As it stands right now and if I were her I would be thinking to myself I should have done this years ago. This is awesome. Mostly due to legal things that are legal but really not fair but that is our justice system. It makes it easier to D now days that why everybody is doing it.




Thanks again for looking at my thread.
Posted By: paul19510

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/07/15 10:16 PM

[/Quote]=Yes, my needs are important but I put them on the back burner for now while I am standing for my M. Rest assured though I have a vision what my life will look like if I end up D[/quote]

begin to put your needs first. You matter....
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/07/15 11:27 PM

Thanks Paul,

That's nice of you to say. I know I matter... I guess I am confusing people again. I am doing things for myself everything but dating. I am alone in my house for as long as I own it. I do what I want I when I want and how I want. Could I do better absolutely!! On the whole, I am getting better everyday.

Thanks again
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/08/15 12:22 AM

Wonka,

I walked in confident, looking and smelling good. to make a long story short at least this part. There will be no change in Spousal support due to our incomes. I had some bad info and it basically was a waste. My fault. No mortgage help because I make too much. W is not required to pay credit cards at this point. I will get credit for all I have paid down the road but it doesn't help the present.

After that was all over. we were left in the lobby alone so I decided to speak to my W. This how it went down. I said "W would you please wish FIL a Happy Birthday for me?" She said she would do that for I said Thank you. I then said "our friend wanted me to let you know that she still wants to be friends and might email you." She said Ok.

My W then said she would like to by the house and get a few things. I said" fine just text me when you are coming like I used to do for you. I said There actually is a lot of stuff in the living room for you to take also that I put there after you left." She inquired what and I honestly I cant remember. She said "my dolls?" I said" no those are still in the bedroom I am sleeping in I didn't touch anything in there."

She said OK and I just reiterated to her to text before she got there. W said it would most likely be on a Saturday. I said" fine it is still your house, I haven't changed the locks but I would like to be present."

All of this was pretty calm. Here it comes though. since it was going well I decided to ask about my cat.


I said "how is our Cat?" She said in a matter of fact way, "Unfortunately, she passed away 2 weeks before Christmas."


My jaw dropped I turned away and walked away for a couple step to compose myself. I said "Why couldn't you call me and tell me???"

She said "well with all this going on I didn't think I should contact you."

I said " W, I have no ill-will towards you. this(meaning support hearing and possible D) is what it is. WE need to separate certain things from our sitch."

She started telling me that our cat knew I loved her and it also happen very quickly and suddenly. I just said "I wish you felt like you could call me."

She started bring up when our dog passed away and I said "stop what you are saying you know you are lying right now. If you want the text of how that went I have them." she stopped talking about the dog and went into a couple of excuses of how the cat died.

At this time the L came back and I turned mine and said "W just told me the cat died. Lets go"

As we were waiting for the elevator I heard my W telling her L the story she was telling me. My L just looked at me and rolled her eyes.


Oh and my W finally got the car inspected 4 months late in the last couple days because it is good through Jan 16. Maybe she got it done because she possibly thought she may have to pay me something.


There was no yelling during the Cat discussion. just disbelief and a couple of a "this is BS" and a "I think you may need some help. I know this is stressful but that is not an excuse to act like this. We are adults for GOD'S sake let act like them please for both our sanity's."

What bothers me is if I didn't ask about our cat it would have never been said to me and I would still be thinking about how she might be missing home.

Did I do a good job even though the end was confrontational?


Because of the non action of the hearing. It is now most likely I will have to sell the house. actually this might hurt my W with getting money that she wants but she is steadfastly against letting me refinance the house while allowing her to remain a 50% owner.

One of my friends mentioned to me that my W is listing to a Christian Music station and is listening to Sermons on the computer. I hope she finds Peace by doing this. I know it helped me.

There a couple songs out that get me through this. I hope she listens to them and they strike a cord with her. I pray this is the case.


I have a possible email I would like to send my W concerning the house and her D wishes. I need to consult my L and then I will run it past you guys.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/08/15 12:32 AM

Nit,

Good job with your posture and keeping your composure. Well done! smile

Originally Posted By: nit84
Because of the non action of the hearing. It is now most likely I will have to sell the house. actually this might hurt my W with getting money that she wants but she is steadfastly against letting me refinance the house while allowing her to remain a 50% owner.


Why is she refusing you to refinance the house if you DO have the means to do so?

Yeah, please do post your draft here for input and feedback.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/08/15 01:24 AM

Wonka,

She said back in August when I first presented a refinance plan, mind you at her request, That it would make it too easy for me to get the house and I wouldn't want to give up any retirement or property either.

I explained to her that I didn't want her to sign the house over to me, just sign a paper recognizing that I am borrowing money against a house that W is part owner of.


She got angry and said "I told you to refinance 3 years ago!!" I said" we tried remember? our debt to equity was not where it needed to be and we decided together to stay on that path and in couple years try again. Life happened you wanted out and then lost your job. it could have happened last year but all this stuff was going on so it couldn't. I never lost sight of our goal and I am very you did but that is your choice."


I then showed her the apparaisal I had done, again at her request, and she said "why isn't the house worth X "I said "we both knew it wouldn't be and now this just proves it. The bank is offering 10,000 more. it is a good deal IMO and it also saves you money. It is not all just for my benefit." She walked away angrily and I sat there in dismay.


I told my W way back that her Ideas to fix up the house were wonderful we had to wait for the dog to cross over. Once that happened(we were already S) I started making plans to fix the house. She got angry and said I was only doing this to throw it her face. I validated to no avail.

In her settlement proposal they are attempting to say the house is worth 23,000.00 more than the appraisal. With little back up just a possible internet value.

Also, if I was allowed to refinance I would assume all my W debt. she would be debt free and allowed to start over fresh with half my retirement and half of the property.

It is her contention that she doesn't owe any credit card debt but 99.9% sure since she used the card to buy things even though 2 out of 3 are in my name and she is only an associate user it will all be considered Marital debt at some point.


She hasn't paid any credit card bills in 8 months so it is getting tight and she knows it.

I am not sure if she know that if need be I will sell the house even though I love it and want to keep it.


It is a case of "If I can't have it, you aren't having it either" IMHO and also she knows it will hurt me and that is her goal as was the Dog death and now the Cat's death. When our dog Died she looked me right in the face and said "I don't want you with me when I put her down because I have so much resentment towards you I can't do it." after I asked to be there. The dog passed at home but she dug the hole and buried before I could home from work. She wasn't working at the time
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/08/15 02:20 AM

Here is a possible email to my W.

I go back and forth on whether to send it or not.


W,
I am sorry you feel the way you do about the house and the refinance. It is apparent that you would rather sell the house than refinance it for what amount the bank was willing to give.

While it is disappointing to me I understand your position. I am thinking of putting up a sign "for sale by owner" to gauge interest and possible sale price of the house as is.

Of course, I can't and won't do anything without consulting you and I most certainly welcome your input.

I know things aren't the best between us. It is not my wish to get a D but I know this is your desire and I respect that. If we could talk between us it may save some L fees. I have to be honest with you I never thought this process would be as adversarial as it has become. I know we are both protecting ourselves. It is my hope that you don't not think I am punishing you in any way by anything that I have been advised to do.

You have made your decision and now, actually, for awhile now we both have been moving on with our own journeys. I wish you the best and it is my hope in your own time that you can forgive me for all that I have done to do allow our M to fail. There are numerous things that you have mentioned to me that have hurt you deeply. I have heard what you said and how you have resentment towards me. I can't begin to tell you and I know how you feel because that would be irresponsible of me. If it is 1 or 100 years we were together it was the best times of my life. No need to respond to this specifically but if you want to discuss the house or anything else I hope you will free to do so.

Sweet dreams, H
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/08/15 06:13 PM

Nit,

I'd suggest that you whittle it down to 1 or 2 paragraphs. As for the house, why can't your L send one final proposal to W? This will insulate you from her wrath as it is a legal matter. Suppose she disagrees, there's one option that you can consider: have it decided by the judge alone. There's a legal term for it...cannot recall it.

What is your real goal of sending out that email to W? Let's be real here.

Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/08/15 07:11 PM

Wonka,

That is what my W has indicated she wants to do is have the judge decide around the time of their 2 yr S date. Doesn't want to negotiate anymore till then. We have sent 2 proposals to my W both were unacceptable according to her.

My L feels they are holding out for 2 reasons 1.) for W to collect as much Spousal support as possible and 2.) My W L wants to add a little to billings.

looking at the Email again, It is showing that I am willing(begrudgingly) to sell the house but with a tinge of guilt sprinkled in. Also, It seems to be a bit of a LRT letter without saying it outright.

I am wavering on sending it and that is why I want to post it here first.


I am tired of chit as is everyone I am sure. But if a miracle occurred I would not be ready to turn it away.


I also am trying to open lines of communication with my W but I guess that is futile.

When she comes to the house I will be cordial and then STFU and let her take what she feels is hers and only speak up if I disagree.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/08/15 07:17 PM

Nit,

Yup...you're reacting out of anxiety that your W isn't suddenly 'waking' up and falling into your arms sobbing. I wouldn't send anything to W. Can you put the house on the market now? Possible? Have you consulted with a realtor?

Aren't any D papers filed? Where do things stand right now? Just a S now?

Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/08/15 07:41 PM

Wonka,

I consulted a realtor back in Aug also. They do not write things down(I asked). She said the house was worth about 12,000.00 less than the written appraisal I had done and that was if the buyer were going to live in and fix up.

If it was bought by a flipper then I could expect about another 10,000.00 lower.

Side note yesterday I said my W valued the house 23,000.00 higher than the appraisal it is actually 33,000.00

I certainly could put it on the market now if my W agreed to it she still is a 50% partner in the house.

The email was to see what her feelings were about this idea of for sale by owner to establish a "real" value.


My W served me personally with a D complaint on 4/27/2014. There is no legal S in my state. Once everything is hashed out then the actual D would be filed and I could dispute it if I wanted.

That move was to enable her to get spousal support, which she was awarded on 6/30/2014.

More later.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/08/15 08:32 PM

I'm Back,

I thought she was moving out in July. That didn't happen. Then in Aug she came to me with property division ideas. that is when I shared my Refinance plan.

I asked if she would be leaving at the end of Aug she said no.

September comes and I just go on with life till I discover her doing OM laundry in my house I confront her she denies it is his. We talk about some things that she took that my L asked me to ask W to bring back till we had a signed property agreement. She blows up and says I will be leaving by end of the month. I said fine. I received her Settlement Proposal 9/25/2014. She moves out 9/27/2014.

She went to her Gramdmother's and is it not paying rent. Has a full time job which pays little above the average and is collecting 850.00 a month from me.

I have no problem paying her money to get to equal amounts per pay. My problem is the courts see it as rehabilitation payments to help my W start over.

Which I guess I see but not, when after she got paid by me, to still stay in the same house and pay reduced amounts on the mortgage and utilities and nothing at all on the Credit Cards.

Now at Grandma's she can save more money and still not contribute to any bills. I don't want her to for electric for example but the credits cards and some amount of the mortgage that she owes because she still is part owner and it just doesn't go anywhere if you pick up and leave.


If the refinance would have happened back in Aug Most likely we would be D by now.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/09/15 12:44 AM

At first right after my W served me the complaint. I told my W now we both have to protect ourselves and I understand that.

Her words were "you are going to get vicious aren't you?" I said" no why would I?" I said "My feelings will never change for you it will just be difficult to see this while my L is advising me to do things that will protect my future."

It still holds true today. My feelings haven't changed for my W and I don't want the D.

Taking a look back throughout this S, I believe I handled it well by telling the truth all the time and when I thought I couldn't I kept my mouth shut.

I feel horrible about the fact that my W has to lie to me. It doesn't hurt that much anymore when she lies because that is the way of the WAW.

I just wonder what surprise story or lies my W will have when she comes over to the house to get more stuff.

I actually thought things went well after the hearing communication wise until she dropped the dead cat Bombshell.


I will act "as if" when she comes over. I hope she comes when I'm here but she may change her mind and do it when I leave so that I can't see what she takes till it is already in her possession.

I understand that we can't be close right now or ever again but my old W wouldn't have acted so coldly to anybody as she did with my Dying dog and now the Cat.


This will come off as sour grapes but I really do think Something happened to my W about 22 months ago that is making her seem like she is suffering from a form mental illness. When I say happened I don't mean in a physical way but in a mental way. Maybe it is just that she is "done".

It is hard to explain, when it is just Her and I, how she acts to be able to paint an accurate picture for you to give me some feedback.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/09/15 12:52 AM

Nit,

I would refrain from using the term "mental illness" when describing a WAW who just doesn't want to be married to you. It is being dismissive and minimizing her hurts that she's stuffed down over time.

Set her free. Move ahead with putting the house on the market and split proceeds 50%. Then place them an escrow until the rest of other financial issues are resolved. Then continue working with your L about retirement and other issues that matter to you. It may mean that those unresolved issues will need to be decided by a judge.

After they've been resolved, then the sale proceeds can be released from the escrow account.

I'd run those ideas by your L.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/09/15 01:40 AM

Wonka,

This is one of the few times I have used that term. You are correct it has serious implications if you used willy nilly.

I feel that I have not been dismissive or minimizing of my W hurts. But again I am inside this Sitch and probably don't see it.

I have extreme guilt feelings that I was such a horrible H that I hurt my W so bad and that is why she is acting in a way that is foreign to me. I get the fact that it is not suppose to unicorns and rainbows but she has become a very resentful person

I find myself defending my W against such illness talk sometimes.


I am not trying to be defensive sorry if it comes off that that.


My L just texted me. I should try to communicate with my W to see if the Idea about the house would be something she will agree upon.


It has been a bad day. I know my W is own her own journey. I guess the subconscious mind is powerful. When I wrote the draft email above I really didn't intend it to be an anxiety ridden piece that made it look like I was hoping for a miracle. It was just my thoughts about the house. Maybe if I got rid of the last two paragraphs it would be ok.

But you are correct Wonka I probably shouldn't send it at the moment because it is obvious my emotions have hold of me at the moment.

Thanks for the help!
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/09/15 05:45 PM

Nit,

My L just texted me. I should try to communicate with my W to see if the Idea about the house would be something she will agree upon.

Why can't your L communicate with W about this himself since it's his job to do so?
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/10/15 01:55 AM

Wonka,

My L would communicate with my W L if I asked her to do so and has. She said it was up to me if I wanted to talk to my W about things for two reasons. 1) it saves L fees and 2) W L seems to be dragging it out for some reason. She said if I wanted to talk to my W I should do so. She was not trying to get me to do something for her in my opinion. I have been wrong before though.

If I could talk to my W in a rational manor(which I believe I can) it may get things moving again. My L knows I don't want a D but I have also told her I understand I can't stop it.


I am not sure I want to talk to my W about the house issue and if I feel I cant I certainly will have my L send letters to W L.

The email draft I shared was, like you said, filled with anxiety. My gut is telling me that for just this house issue I could talk to my W. Nothing else but the house.



I don't know if I will explain this correctly and it may not be wise to talk to my W but that is why I have you guys help me through.


Since day 1 I have always said I wanted the house and would hopefully be able to refinance it to do so. I said this without any knowledge that I could. When I found it was possible I was overjoyed. Bcause 1.) I could do it and 2.) strangely enough it was something I actually thought was getting me closer to D but it is what my W asked me to do and how it would help clarify things according to her.

So I was taken back when I presented this to my W that she was so against it.


When she served me the D papers. A discussion we had before bed was about this now being a business transaction.

I told her I hope it didn't come down to something like this and this was purely hypothetical. "Say the house is worth x and I offer 5,000 less you will get mad."

My W said "for 5 grand it would be worth it and I would take it so we could D."

I said "well what happens if the house is only worth x"(a number about 50,000.00 less) which honestly is where it is if we were to sell it to a flipper according to a realtor I had in.

I said "if the house is only worth x and we sell it after we pay the mortgage and 2nd mortgage that leaves us with 5,000.00 a piece maybe. this would be ok except our credit card bills are x which would leave us both having to take out loans to cover our portions."

My W said " well then that would put things on hold then." as I was walking away. I stopped backed up and said "wait, so if I want to get rid you. which I don't but if I did you would roadblock the D because you thought the house would be worth more?" She said " I guess we would have to. but I think the house is worth x so we won't have to worry about it."

I said "I hope"


Well when the numbers shook out they were much closer to the second example rather than the 1st.When I proposed the refinance option reality really upset my W and once I got her settlement proposal I saw why. She used my Hypothetical value as a starting point. This is her right. Heck. she could started at 1,000,000.00 if she wanted.

She kept telling me "you want the house that is fine because I can't afford it anyway." I said "you possibly could if you got a job paying you what you were making or even 10% less
"

She kept saying "I know you wont sell the house because you would have to split it with me." I said "it is half yours I don't think I would have choice."

My point of this whole thing and this is my opinion. I feel my W thinks I wont sell the house and I will cave to her settlement proposal to keep it. Her demands are outrageous and we have countered with my offer.

I don't want to sell but if I have to sell to save my credit score and my Financial future I most certainly will.

Most likely it will sell for around what I described in my 2nd example. leaving us to find ways of paying credit card bills that the proceeds didn't cover.

This would hinder my W in her goal to start over because she probably would be left to pay some portion of money and couldn't start over fresh like she wanted.


Up till now there has been no talk of selling the house. If I present it the right way my W maybe will see in the long run it is better for her if we don't sell the house and we can settle some other way.

Again my proposal for refinance will allow my W to be debt free going forward and then we can discuss the retirement which I am sure she would receive at least 50% which I have no problem with (well a little) but you have to compromise on some things and property is property nothing earthshattering there that I would dispute if it came down to it.

Talking to my W might not produce the results I want but at least it will save on some fees.

If it weren't for my dead cat. The conversation we had after the hearing went well. It wasn't warm, it was businesslike( I hated it but at least we were talking). If I keep it to that level, I believe even if I get nowhere with my thoughts, I might understand her thinking and why she is asking for what she is.

I feel this has become a money game to my W. I was foolish to think that if my W became debt free, got 50% of the retirement to which she contributed only 20%, and we split the personal property in a way that acceptable to both of us that we would just call it a M. I don't want it to end but if is had to at least it would be fair.

I have never been through a D so it is foreign to me but for my W and I, we have no kids, we aren't wealthy, why is this going the way it is?

I wish I had an understanding. maybe I am thick-skulled or just plain dumb..


I don't want a D but I have a vision of what it will be like when it is final.

Honestly, at this point if I didn't have to protect myself I would give in to my W. Not because I am weak but because I am tired of all the posturing, the sense of entitlements, acting like a victims etc... this goes for both sides Mine and my W.


I pray everyday for a miracle and I pray everyday for peace just wonder which one will come first.

Thanks for your patience with me.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/11/15 05:17 PM

well I must be getting closer to dropping the rope.

I wrote my LR letter to me W this morning. I am not sending it right now or maybe never but I wrote it.

W,
I am writing this letter to let you know I know that you are done with our Marriage and have been for some time. You are moving on with your life by and in the choices you have made. Our Marriage is one that I thought would last a lifetime unfortunately that isn't the case anymore. Throughout our Relationship both dating and married, I have done things that have hurt you.

-Bringing up your past or your family's behavior
-not helping around the house enough
-drinking or wanting you to go out even through you were sick.
-only bringing up our problems when I drank
-holding my feelings and not communicating them to you
-negative attitude and impatience
-not fixing up the house when you asked.
-not taking into account your feelings about children and waiting to long to ask you to start a family.
-doing things that you thought were controlling(too many to mention)

For all the above I ask your forgiveness because I know they have wounded you deeply from what you have told me.

Despite how unhappy you have been in our relationship your 16 year commitment has been remarkable. Although, I don't believe Divorce is a solution to our problems I love you and respect you enough to let you go if that is what you choose.

As painful and difficult as this situation has been the silver lining is that it has been a wake up call to the person I want to be either alone or in a future relationship.

This was really hard for me to write. I want to stand for my M but it takes two and at the moment it is just one.

Maybe I am still being too emotional after the hearing and feeling sorry for myself.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/11/15 10:14 PM

The last two lines ^^^^ are not part of the letter
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/11/15 11:10 PM

Nit,

Is that your Hail Mary letter?? What do you hope to achieve from it considering where your W is presently?
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/12/15 12:12 AM

Wonka,

It is my Last Resort letter following an outline given to me by my DB coach about 8 months ago. At that time, she said "do not send it until you truly believe you can adhere to it." I don't know yet if I am ready to send it but it is written if I do.

With the little contact my W and I have only something really big will save this M. I still want to stand but not sure how at this point.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/12/15 12:39 AM

I suppose what I want to achieve if I sent this is to show my W that I have finally let go of standing for something that she wants to end.

Taking off all the pressure that she may be feeling from me off of her.

We both can move on with our journeys on separate paths and maybe those paths will cross again somewhere in the future.

I haven't been a on the rollercoaster of emotion in a long time but I am now and I hate it.
Posted By: Wonka

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/12/15 04:55 AM

Nit,

One just doesn't say to the spouse that they're moving on because as we say sometimes "talk is cheap." When one truly moves on, it is done through actions. Remember how you've moved on from your middle school or high school GF? Exactly.

Back to the letter, from my vantage point of view sitting in my comfy perch, I see a mixture of blaming, pleading, and overly focused on the negatives. Another concern is that, by sending it now, it would come across as manipulative to W with the full knowledge that you two are at loggerheads about the house and settlement. It will most definitely rub her the wrong way and just rile her up.

If I were you, if you really want to send a letter to W, I'd wait until everything is agreed to and a forward movement toward a settlement is firmed up. Only then you might want to send the letter to her.....with changes. I wouldn't send it as it stands.

Methinks that you're being driven by anxiety and unsettling feelings to write that Hail Mary letter to W. To me, for one to write a letter to the spouse, you must be completely done and accept the situation as it is. As you pointed out, you want to continue standing for your M.

This tells me that you're not completely done. Right?
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/12/15 11:01 AM

Wonka,

No I am not completely done you are correct about that.

Talk is cheap and I am trying to let my actions show that 1.) I have changed and will continue to do so and 2.) I am moving on as far as envisioning a life without my W and GALing in a lot of areas. The only one that I can't do is date.

Do I have my eye on a couple of Women sure, but I don't think now is the time to do it. It is just not for me to date while still M. My W chose that path and it was choice to do so. Probably, neither my W or I are completely correct in our choice on the matter.

You are correct that it is not good to send the letter now. I see that now but I wrote it so I wanted to share with the board.

The Letter was advice by a DB coach. I have told my W I understand her frustration with me but never got to lay it out there we would hit on one or two of the things that bothered her but it always ended up becoming confrontational and one of us would remove ourselves. The letter was a way to show that there are more issues and I have heard my W loud and clear.

I don't want to hash out the past unless it would help us but I wanted to express the fact that I know how these things hurt our M and intend on never doing them again and showing it by my actions.

Thanks again for your insight
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/12/15 02:25 PM

I guess I have to go back and refer to DR too see what it says, about when your WAW moves out and you have very little contact, other than working on yourself and GALing.

I feel like I am doing a good job at both, but waiting for my W to face the consequenses of her actions or to hit "rock bottom" is very tough because you never know when that is going to be.

I hope it is before we D but I have no control of that.

With the contentious nature of the settlement proposals, We both are trying to protect ourselves and I understand that and I feel like because I understand that I am able to keep resentment levels lower.

From things my W has said to me I feel that is harder for her to do. so it is what is for now.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/13/15 08:06 PM

Starsky,

I have a question for you in complex's thread specifically post #2526575 you suggest to him that he confront his W in a certain Manner.

As you know I have confronted my W but not in the way you suggested to Complex. My way was very doormattish. Could I still attempt something like this or is it too late?

I think I could do something like this.

I just need to make not look like pursuit or neediness


I would love your thoughts on this
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/15/15 02:47 AM

Originally Posted By: nit84
Starsky,

I have a question for you in complex's thread specifically post #2526575 you suggest to him that he confront his W in a certain Manner.

As you know I have confronted my W but not in the way you suggested to Complex. My way was very doormattish. Could I still attempt something like this or is it too late?

I think I could do something like this.

I just need to make not look like pursuit or neediness


I would love your thoughts on this




Nit, let me read up thread for your recent context, and I'll try to give you my take. I'm reeling today myself, as we lost my wife's dad today and we were extremely close.

Starsky
Posted By: Train

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/15/15 03:05 AM

Soooooo incredibly sorry to hijack, nit. Please forgive me for just one moment ...

Starsky, (((((hugs)))))). Big, ginormous ones from this heart that is hurting for you. I'm so sorry this has happened to you and your precious family. The timing absolutely blows. I will be praying for peace for your W ... and for God to give YOU the strength you need to not only grieve the loss of someone you love but to be able to (simultaneously and once again) be an unmovable pillar of strength for W.

nit, I'll read through your threads myself. But when Starsky talks, I always agree with him. So I'll likely have nothing to add. smirk wink Sometimes I ramble behind him. But mostly, my advice would be to just listen to him if/when he can scoot back by with advice.

Hang in there ... BOTH of you.
Posted By: Starsky309

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/15/15 03:12 AM

Thanks, Train. I SO wish I could find you in the alt; have you sought the DB or Not DB group on FB?
Posted By: Train

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/15/15 04:41 AM

I haven't, Starsky! Never knew it existed. I'll look for it. But that's not promising I'll find it ... though I'd love to find y'all there, too!
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/15/15 02:00 PM

I am extremely sorry for your loss Starsky, Please know I will pray for you and your family.

Train no worries about the Hijack. I know you and Starsky have a bond. I also value your opinion on things very much add what you can.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/19/15 12:34 AM

Well I saw the W at a function at the club we belong to.

I gave her space and she did the same for me. We acknowledged each other as she came around selling things for our Relay for Life team(well I guess it hers now that I wasn't asked to participate last year).

She also went around selling 50/50 tickets and I bought some. She stood at our table talking to the people I sat with in a friendly manner but those people thought is was faked.

I said I couldn't tell. Her family sort of surprised me a bit. When I walked in W Grandma waved back as I waved to her but when we stood right next to each and I said "Hi Grandma" She ignored me or didn' t hear me. W Uncle did shake my hand and said it was good to see me. I believe he was sincere and that makes feel a little better.

My MIL kept shooting dirty looks to a female I was sitting with according to my friend. I said "if it bothers you I will sit elsewhere" she said "absolutely not". I stayed put and our table had a fine time.

I left before the party was over as I was tired and finished dinner.

All in all, it was a good day but it seems that there a definite division of mutual friends. This is the 3rd time I was at that club since Jan 2014 so either my W is saying things or it is my MIL. It really doesn't matter to me what was said to make those friends choose sides because I know the truth about everything and that is good enough for me.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/19/15 02:36 AM

Just wanted to say sorry for your loss Starsky.

Nice job nit showing poise with W's relations.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/27/15 11:56 PM

My L sent a letter to my W L telling them that I can no longer afford to pay all the Marital Debt and the Mortgage and pay the court ordered Spousal Support.

Therefore, I am seeking my W consent to sell the Marital home. This is something I never wanted to do but my W played her cards correctly I guess and now is forcing me to do something she said back last Summer that was not her desire.


By putting the house on the market I will use my W figure since that is what they think it is worth. If we get that amount I suppose I can afford another home.


I suspect that the amount that we will get will 1/2 of what my W wants to get.

In between is where the house was appraised and I was able to get financing on my own to refinance the house. All my W had to do was sign a paper that she was aware I was borrowing money against a house she was part owner of. This would not had put the house in my name only but my W felt this made it too easy for me to get the house at some later point.

She doesn't want the house and has told me this on several occasions but it has become apparent that she also does not want me to have the house either even though she communicated to me 7 months ago that I should see if I was eligible to refinance if it was my desire to keep the home.


This is the frustrating part of everything, I have come to terms with my the fact my W does not want to be M to me, she is an A and probably will be for a lot longer, but is holding up the D attempting to get outrageous amounts of money.

It really rings of someone who has a great deal of resentment. I know I cant control what she feels and I only control how I react to certain things and short of caving in to her demands I am in Financial limbo until she decides it has been long enough.


I do not want to D but I am not roadblocking it and never have. I, at some points, wanted to but never did.

This process has taught me a lot about myself and has changed me for the better from now on. I still want my W to try and attempt to work on the M but if it doesn't happen so be it and we should both move on.


I wont date till I am D but I believe in every other facet I have moved on. I see a future without my W but also without a reasonable amount of Money that split between us. I will make more money. It is getting to my future in "ok" fashion that I am fighting for now.


I will see if this letter gets any response in moving things forward and take it from there.

It is weird though, I still feel that the final chapter of our M hasn't been written yet and there is still room for a happy ending if I had the pen in hand.





Thoughts welcome on how maybe I can get the process moving forward even though it is not what I truly want to see happen.



Thank You
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 01/31/15 11:23 PM

My W still or more like it her L hasn't responded to my request to get my W consent to sell the M home.

I really don't want to get any closer to D but I know there is no stopping it so I am just trying to protect myself Financially.


According to sources My W is getting closer to GOD in some ways which is encouraging to me. Not necessarily so my W may come back but because it may allow her forgive me possibly and let go of the resentment that I feel she is holding for me.

I am happy that she did this on her own. I asked her a couple times when she was still living here to go to church with me and she declined so her doing it own may allow her faith to be real and grow and not forced upon her.

I am not on the rollercoaster of emotion but I am happy and sad at the same time but I realize that my sadness is selfish and I need to keep the happy in mind because maybe what my W is doing at the moment faith wise will help her find some peace about us and maybe, just maybe allow her to stop her A and then somewhere down the line seek a renewed R with me.

That is my hope but I am also realistic about the dire straits of our sitch.
Posted By: nit84

Re: afraid I have waited too long #5 - 03/17/15 01:52 AM

Hi All,

It has been awhile since I posted. Nothing much new to report really.

I sent my W a couple short emails. One concerning a joint membership in a service we belong to and the other to inform her of the passing of a Mutual friend. Both times no response.

Her L finally got back to my L after almost two months and provided some small piece of info I asked for but said he would have to get back to us on the issue of whether my W will agree to sell our house.

This is a bit frustrating considering they had 2 months to come up with a Yes or No answer.

It appears they are do not want negotiate till they gather some more Spousal support money from me.

Short of signing her outrageous settlement offer, We are in a holding pattern for now just like we have been since about Aug of 2014.

Any suggestions on how to possibly break this stalemate would be appreciated.

I still don't want a D but I am not going to roadblock.

It seems like a defeatist attitude just going along with my W demands but not sure what else to do.

I am a positive person and have been showing that over the last 2 years more and more. This Sitch does wear a person though.

Thanks
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