Jim0987 #7 - rebuilding but can't tell what it is

I�ve spent a lot of the day dwelling on stuff (my family are rubbish for GAL distraction) and doing a bit of a stocktake. As my previous thread was over 90 posts i thought i�d start a new one.

The previous thread is here

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2513250#Post2513250

Recap on my situation
At the beginning of September my W and I had very large disagreement which started with her being upset and me pushing her very hard and very unfairly about why she always seem to shut me out. The end result of this was that she said she doesn�t love me and doesn�t want to be together anymore. Since then she has been in a separate bedrooms but we are still in the same house with our 2 children aged 3.5 and 1.5.

My wife wants a divorce and is planning on moving out as soon as the purchase of her new house goes through. There is a draft separation agreement in place under which I will buy out her half of the equity in the property.

I subsequently discovered, through less than noble means, that my wife had slept with a guy at her work place about a week after BD. At the same time i found out that she had wanted to sleep with him for a while but felt she had to break up with me first as she didn�t want to cheat on me. Most of this information came from a conversation she had with her poisonous friend (PF) which also revealed that:
- My wife regretted marrying me and that she knew she was making a mistake on our wedding day
- That she is not attracted to me in the slightest and that she feels sick to think she has had sex with me
- That she thinks i�m �a lying, manipulative $hit�
- The only good thing to have come from our relationship is the kids
- That i am �an emotionally abusive bully� and that i �drove a wedge� between her and her family
- That she has made arrangements to file for divorce the day after she moves out (fault divorce blaming me)

Since BD, my wifes OM situation has been a bit of a saga.
- She had a couple of one night things with OM1 but he wasn�t interested in anything more, W continued to pursue
- W went out seeking a ONS with someone �random� � don�t know if she was successful
- W met with an ex (OM2) to see if there was anything there, spent the night and then bought lingerie for the return visit a week later. I think this was just a booty call
- OM1 has decided he does want more. They spent Tuesday night (9/12/14) together and are spending this weekend at his place in London. This has massively improved W�s general mood

She continues to deny there being any other men though her lies are flimsy at best. She mistrusts me and some of that mistrust is justified.

Since BD my wife has been quite cold and distant. In the first few weeks she was upset and drank heavily though this has tailed off significantly. She is uncomfortable being around me and the kids and has described me playing with the kids as �sickly parenting mode�. The open hostility has tailed off though she has been cold, distant and resolute throughout. There has been limited contact between us about anything other than the kids though i have had a few relationship conversations with her. I�ll cover that off separately. If i initiate contact about something important (lawyers, kids etc.) she doesn�t respond, however if i take actions that concern her then tell her about it I get an immediate response. When we are in the same house she will shut herself in her room as soon as the kids are in bed, unless I�m going out.

Each morning she comes into my bedroom and has a cup of coffee on the bed next to me while we get the kids up. The conversation is usually polite though of late has been friendly and chatty. This is reflective of her improved mood. I can often make her smile and laugh in these chats.

I�m doing ok with most of the 37 rules but my biggest issue is learning to STFU.

What was wrong in our marriage?
Lots wrong in our marriage, some of it specific incidents others more general patterns of behaviour � in any case things haven�t been good for over 3 years. At the same time i still believe that fundamentally, if we were to work through the key issues we could have a very happy life together. I won�t look to rehash all that I�ve said about this before and go through the specifics of every incident. I�ve also said a few times what my wife says she thinks was wrong in our marriage.

This time I�m going to go with what i think was wrong (in no particular order).
- We are both conflict avoiders which meant issues weren�t dealt with, they were instead festered upon and turned into resentments. Issues were only bought up by either side in a highly charged emotional state.
- There were a couple of significant incidents where my W was emotionally very hurt by me which i don�t believe she forgave me for
- My wife felt I let her down a number of times when she needed me. Sometimes this was because I didn�t understand what she wanted/needed me to do. Other times its because i thought i knew better
- I always make everything about me
- I thought we had agreement on certain decisions where my wife felt bullied into it
- I made sarcastic remarks which I thought were little jokes but in practice hurt and upset my wife
- If my wife asked my opinion she would do then do the opposite or tell me that my opinion was wrong.
- My wife resisted/controlled physical affection (hugs, kisses etc.) so that they only occurred when and how she wanted. This made me feel rejected and so i withdrew. I developed some odd reactions � if i initiated, I immediately withdrew apologising and feeling guilty for violating a physical touch boundary. My wife sometimes told me to stop being stupid and other times complained when I touched her.
- Our sex life was very stunted and entirely controlled by my wife. she had said was due to her post childbirth body confidence issues but i now believe was due to the damage in our emotional connection. Either way this made me anxious and affected quality as well as frequency
- I gave my wife lots of space and time to deal with her upset and confidence issues as i thought this was the right thing to do, this was interpreted as unsupportive and uncaring
- I took things literally when i should have read between the lines
- Several times i did things to help my wife when she struggled with childcare though i now realise we followed the drama triangle (rescuer,persecuter,victim) to the letter.
- If i felt rejected, ignored or frustrated i sulked
- We both had a victim mindset and were therefore defensive
- We both used covert contracts
- I made lots of comments negatively comparing myself to others and implying my wife wanted someone else, although this was due to my own issues my wife took that as me not trusting her
- There was very limited �dating� between us to keep the relationship alive due to difficulties with going out (lack of acceptable babysitters, wife always tired).

I�ve identified a lot of things about me that i need to change and improve which has a lot to do with how I process emotions, read social situations and think of myself. Certainly I seem to be a co-dependent, low self esteem, socially anxious, egotistical �nice-guy� although based on some of what has come up about me it seems credible that I may also have Aspergers and/or ADD (looking into this with my doctor and my mum told me today she always thought I might)

So what�s next?
Well I need to continue the work on me and there is a lot of work. The low self worth runs really deep and makes me very insecure. Being betrayed and rejected by my wife certainly hasn�t helped.

My wife is moving out at some point but I�m not sure when � I could chase this through my solicitors in order to not seem like I�m obstructing but at the same time DR seems to say make them do all the chasing. When she does move we will both have VERY tight finances as opposed to are relatively healthy shared finances at the moment

The affair with OM1 is only just getting going properly now (after casual encounters and false starts) and given that they known each other well for a while and have had this slow considered start to their relationship I seriously doubt it will be a short lived thing. And that also means that i need to prepare myself for when he is introduced to my kids

I think I�m coming to the conclusion that if there is to be reconciliation it won�t be this side of 2016 given all the other stuff that has to be overcome and it won�t be before the divorce is finalised. I still want that but it�s just not realistic. Which really makes me question am I prepared to spend 18 months or more pining for someone who doesn�t want me (that�s more than half the length of our marriage) or should I just accept I�m to be divorced and move on with my life. If we are meant to get back together then we will, if we aren�t then I will still be a better version of me for whatever, whoever comes next.

All of which leads me to the most pressing decision i need to make

Should I file for divorce or not?
Under UK law there is a 2 year wait before a no fault divorce can take place. Prior to that it has to be because of unreasonable behaviour (such as abuse) or adultery by one of the parties. This can be contested but there is no point due to the massive cost and in most cases the same end result � divorce.

Finalising the divorce is beneficial as until then financial claims/issues cannot be fully resolved and if we are to lead separate lives this protects us both (though technically i think she has more to lose by not finalising).

I know my wife intended to pursue a fault divorce accusing me of emotional abuse as soon as the house purchase goes through and i�m really uncomfortable their being a piece of legal paperwork that says this. Lets say in 15 year my kids ask � well there is now a piece of paper that �proves� daddy was a bully because he admitted it.

By filling first it puts the fault on her and either her adultery or the requirements are sufficiently woolly that i could cite unreasonable behaviour � this protects me more in the long term but obviously isn�t going to be received very well by my W. Not really keeping the way home smooth.

So my options are
1) Trust she won�t file before the 2 year no fault deadline
2) File first
3) Wait for her to file and accept fault
4) Wait for her to file and contest (massively expensive)
5) Talk to her about it (and ignore all her other current dishonesty)

I�ve got a week or so to make this decision I think so I�ll keep mulling it over.

Do you want to save your M? Do not file if you do. Do not move out. You need to work hard on those 180s and change the way you interact with W.

Just to check. With regard to the OM - do I basically pretend he doesn't exist? My W doesn't talk about him at all.

Good morning all

So the weekend was my weekend with the kids

Saturday
went to visit my mum and my brother. took the kids as they havent seen my mum since august (lots of reasons for this). I found it a difficult day for a bunch of reasons and a lot of that was about looking at the dynamics in my family and how they have shaped me.

in amongst that was this gem from my mum, when talking about whether i might have aspergers or something in that territory
'i didnt tell i loved you because it always seem to make you uncomfortable'

Its always felt like joviality within my family has had to come from me and when i'm not in a great place its just sullen, and my mood was definitely affected by my W's romantic getaway in london.

kids had an ok day all things considered though perhaps a bit too much TV as it stopped them stripping my mums christmas tree

Wife got home late saturday night which was unexpected, but it meant she was home for the kids swimming. I'm glad she was back for it.

Sunday
Got the kids up and had a delicious smoked salmon breakfast
Wife took S1 swimming, D3 couldnt go as she has developed an ear infection (she gets these a lot)so instead D3 and I made a roast beef with all the trimmings and decorated the christmas cake (what it lacks in neat is made up for in glitter).

Wife didnt have lunch with us (i offered but it made no difference to my plan) spent the afternoon out christmas shopping and measuring up her new house. generally starting to sort herself for the move. which meant i had time just me and the kids - its nice but not as nice as family time, i miss that.

when she got home i was having fun with the kids and playing nicely.

She was in a bad mood all day and then started complaining she didnt feel well so went to have a lie down. I gave the kids a bath and they giggled their heads off (normal for them) and put them to bed.

Wife said good night to the kids then went into her room. we saw each other a couple of times (passed in the kitchen or on the landing) but she didnt say a word to me.

she still seemed to be in a bad mood this morning (certainly compared to the back end of last week) and completely ignored me as she left for work.

now i have an IC appointment then off to quite an important meeting. then kickboxing tonight - last before christmas

With regards to OM: "Don't talk about OM" is what I read from the vets on these boards. That's also what I do. It seems to diminish you and give them importance when you mention them. "You feed what you emphasize."

So I�ve had a load of time sat on trains today and i know i should have been thinking about pretty much anything else but none the less ended up dwelling on my situation. And in particular setting stuck on the thought of how my wife has decided that life with me is so awful a prospect.

After failing to stop the thinking I�ve decide to try and channel it into more an evaluation of how I�m doing in the image i present at home. This is obviously my take as i cannot say what my wife sees or how she chooses to interpret it.

So positive behaviour she is seeing from me is
- I�m really hands on and very engaged with both my kids. And most of the time I have a plan to do something with them which is usually something very family orientated.
- I now just deal with the domestic stuff and do whatever needs doing without complaint. If she is doing things for the household then I offer to help.
- I�m doing a lot more exercise (running, kickboxing and Squash).
- I�ve been going out at weekends and some weeknights to do things �shes not asked where though i have mentioned bits during general conversation.
- I spend a lot more time on my phone � which may not be a good thing
- I have dropped the hurtful sarcastic comments (which previously i never realised were hurtful despite my W telling me they were - I didnt get it)
- I am acknowledging rather than defensive when my wife corrects. (this is a good 180 for me)
- For the most part I act happy around her, like I�m just getting on with my life.
- We communicate well about issues relating to the kids
- I�m showing and expressing more gratitude
- I�ve expressed concern when she seems upset
- I�ve tried (don�t know how successfully) to seem not bothered by whatever her plans are, I have tried to limit questions to what I need to know to manage expectations (will you be home for bedtime? Are you back tonight or tomorrow?). Ive been ok at this i think. though occassionally i will say something like 'its none of my business' which i think undoes good work.
- I�ve made one mention of OM1 (early October) and One mention of OM2 (the day before she went to see him the first time). She hasnt denied OM recently (because i havent asked) but at the same time lies about her whereabouts when she is seeing him.
- I have not called her out on her lies and act as if they are the truth
- I have shared with her some of the good news from work and other issues
- I�m being chatty and friendly when she is around but on general mundane stuff or things I like. Validating when she talks about things and being a more attentive listener. She mostly avoids me but when we are in the same room i talk as i would to friends and colleagues as silence feels like i�m sulking.
- When she leaves to do anything else or asks if i can watch the kids i give an upbeat and positive response as though it makes no difference to me (again a 180)
- I much more relaxed about small stuff that doesn�t really matter

Things/behaviours that are not so good
- I�ve pointed out that I�m much more relaxed about things that used to both me
- I haven�t got my curiosity under control. I�m always scanning for hints as to what she has been up to and she definitely picks up on this
- I cant always hide my sadness, particularly if she mentions the separation/divorce and Christmas (doing better at this being momentary though)
- I think i have given her too many compliments when I�ve noticed new dresses/shoes/haircut etc.
- I still cant look at her without seeing how stunning she is � particularly first thing in the morning when she is dishevelled without any make up on. That�s oddly when i find her most attractive. She cant not see that look in my eye.
- Too many comments slip into what I�m saying or doing to make some kind of cheap point or test a perceived bit of dishonesty
- I still allow my concerns and fears to influence my comments. It would be too subtle for most people but she will have noticed

A lot of the other 180s that I would need to do are dependent on the situation coming up these are things like emotionally being there for her, proving my trust, Enthusiastically agreeing decisions jointly. Equally for each of these my wife would need to give me the opportunity.

OK that hasnt helped my negative thinking at all so now i'm venting

I keep on about all of this stuff but the core of it all is that neither of us were doing anywhere near enough to sustain our marriage and blamed the other one. My insecurities, her 'depression', my failure on some big events, her anxieties etc. etc. its all factors but none of it was insurmountable if we had just worked together and had some fun.

we both got bored but where as I was 'waiting it out' and thinking about how to make it better in the future (rather than making it better now) she decided to get her happiness elsewhere.

I cant actually see the route by which she decides to build a new marriage with me.

The only possibility would be that she gets so miserable that she sees no alternative but i just dont see that happening with the extra guilt free freedom she now gets because i have the kids half the week.

either way its not going to happen while she pursues a relationship with OM1 and there is basicaly nothing i can do about that. And in all likelihood he is a decent and smart guy and so why wouldnt he make a good partner for my wife. And the whole time im standing for my M, my W will barely give me another thought (and the only ones at the moment are negative)

I was near OM1s office today (legitimate business) and found myself wondering if there was anything i could do/say to make him back away from my W. decided there was probably nothing sensible without it reflecting far worse on me.

I'm working on me and slowly but surely im making me a better version of myself. I doing better at connecting with people and much much better at just being ok with little things that dont really matter. I'm getting a much better understanding of where a lot of my inner nonsense comes from and with the right help i know i can reduce that down.

I also have a much MUCH better understanding of how i should have been in our M and how to be the kind of partner my W wanted and deserved. The problem is that i cant do this second part unless my wife is willing to give me the chance and no matter how good I become I cant see why she would.

This royally blows.

Your W may or may not ever be willing to come back and give things another try, You don't control her or this decision so don't bother trying.

What can you do? Continue to become a better person. Continue to reflect on what went wrong and how you can improve. Continue to be the best damn father to your young ones.

Why would she want to come back? Nothing that has happend in your R matters anymore because you aren't him, you're jim 2.0 now and forever with or without your W. Continue to make these changes for you and your W will notice. Not to mention you are the father of her kids.

Also something very simple my DB coach said to me when I was asking why on earth would she ever want to come back. He simply said "No one wants to get divorced, no one grows up thinking oh boy i can't wait to get married and then divorced". It's just something very simple that stuck with me.

Your W is lost, she needs time and space to work through her own issues. Don't worry about OM, no relationship is perfect and once the honeymoon phase is over your W will realize this.

OK so i think my mood today is that im starting to believe the timeline for this (if there is to be any reconcilliation) and i'm rallying against that and the associated powerlessness.

I'm realising my W's newly rejuvinated relationship with OM1 is likely to be long term and i'm doubting my ability to stand for that long, or how i will know when to call it quits

I fear that i will waste more of my life on a futile effort, even though i know many of the changes are about improving me.

I fear that i will never meet anyone who can hold a candle to my wife and that even if i did they wouldnt want me.

I fear that i will be replaced in my kids minds as daddy (SIL encourages this with her son by her XH and her new husband)

I also realise that my W and I had reduced to a good coparenting relationship but there was next to no love shown between us, we had withdrawn from each other far too far. The only pursuit was weird control and pressure on my part even though i thought i was giving space, and this has been the way of things for 3 years. So i fear that there is no chance my W would ever want to come back regardless of what changes i make or how miserable she gets

And finally i fear that actually she is much happier without me, and that i truly was never good enough for her. her reaction, her new found interest in life and the fact she left me for another man all suggest thats true

all in all i'm on quite the pity party today. Sorry

Originally Posted By: jim0987

I keep on about all of this stuff but the core of it all is that neither of us were doing anywhere near enough to sustain our marriage and blamed the other one. My insecurities, her 'depression', my failure on some big events, her anxieties etc. etc. its all factors but none of it was insurmountable if we had just worked together and had some fun.

I think this is the crux with a lot of LBS's troubles, in that it's easy to say "If only soandso would realize how easy it is to fix if we both put the effort in!"

And it is easy if you both put the effort in; but hind sight is 20/20 and WAS just wants to escape. Which WE can't change. As much as yes, it blows.

Hang in there Jim, tomorrow is another day and each one that passes life will get easier. Everyone on this board understands exactly what you're going through. If you need a day to just lay in bed and cry and feel sorry for yourself then take it.

As for timelines no one can predict or control the future as much as we may try. Most relationships fizzle out within 6 months but each one is different so who knows. The key is to take things one day at a time, when you feel ready to move on you will, in the mean time it costs you nothing to continue to work on yourself.

Nothing will ever change the fact that you are your kids father. How your kids view you and feel about you is 100% up to you, if you love and take care of them you will always be there daddy.

Quote:

In amongst that was this gem from my mum, when talking about whether i might have aspergers or something in that territory
'i didnt tell i loved you because it always seem to make you uncomfortable'

Wow! (hugs)

Maybe you felt uncomfortable b/c she would not tell you.

Thank you.

So this evenings interaction with wife consisted of her asking if i'm going out, and what time i'm going out.(3 times - I answered each time)

As soon as i pulled up on the drive she switched everything off downstairs and went to her room before i got in the front door.

She came downstairs to get something she forgot. I said 'Hi' she completely blanked me - didnt even look at me.

it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside........

question? and this might be one for Starsky if he's reading

the whole on again off again affair with OM1 is just picking up again. He and my W work together, W's best friend also works there and is having an affair (has for over a year) with another of the colleagues.

I dont know how common this knowledge is at her place.

Their Boss lives 4 doors down from me and it would be very easy for me to tell him and their place will have rules against that sort of thing.

In standing up for my marriage is there any merit in exposing the affair to her work place? it would likely end it pretty quickly as he is nervous about it anyway. But it would cause tremendous collatoral damage in my W's trust in me and she would really hate me for it.

If I were to expose it is there a better way of doing this?

i'm not in a positive place and probably its fear and ego talking but ultimately i want to stand for my marriage.

Originally Posted By: jim0987

So this evenings interaction with wife consisted of her asking if i'm going out, and what time i'm going out.(3 times - I answered each time) As soon as i pulled up on the drive she switched everything off downstairs and went to her room before i got in the front door. She came downstairs to get something she forgot. I said 'Hi' she completely blanked me - didnt even look at me. it makes me all warm and fuzzy inside........

Something tells me you should stop describing every day interactions with your W. This one seems very mundane for the kind of sitches we're in, especially yours. It's like you're craving to tell the world "I'm rejected!", maybe to be reassured? You're very affected by these interactions even though your focus should be on the future and yourself. Try perhaps not to describe them for a few days and see if you are less affected by them?

I take your point entirely. I'm letting my emotion get the better of me.

Do not expose your W's A to her boss, it's not your place to say anything and it's likely they already know, these things don't stay secret for long. Even if everything plays out exactly as you see it in your head and W and OM call it off, where does that leave you? W now hates you even more and is back onto one night stands until she finds OM3.

It sounds like W and OM1 is a rocky relationship so I'm not sure why you are so concerned they are going to ride off into the sunset and live happily ever after. Just let it die naturally and spend your time now becoming the man only a fool would leave.

I can't imagine being treated the way your W is treating you now, I'm so sorry. Best just to give her time and space, she will come around.

You could look at it as she was waiting up or not.

She didn't want to talk, so she could b thinking.

Hey Jim, Thanks for stopping by my thread lately. I've just been catching up on your sitch. I can see that you are doing some GAL activities (squash, kick boxing etc) Those things are a great release but I wondered if you have tried mindfulness (meditation)? You're head seems to be doing over time, analyzing interactions etc (similar to what Mozza said).

Not that I'm a particularly good advertisement for it at the moment ;-) but I wondered if you might find mindfulness useful in trying to train yourself to just sit back and watch thoughts and things pass by a little more.

There are some great apps out there.

9[u][/u]Jim

This is a tough one on the divorce. I have the same sitch 15 month marriage, have you seen an L yet to discuss this.

Here are my thoughts on it
1. Have you evidence of OM1 and OM2 and ONS. If you can, get this. Use the camera on your phone.
2. I am not suggesting you use evidence as a revealing tool, but if W wants fault divorce then you have contradictory evidence
3. This is only useful as long as A is not exposed
4. At the appropriate time W needs to know you have evidence and that you will not hesitate to use it to protect yourself and your children. This could be in contesting in which you would not hesitate to name OM1 and OM2 but you don't need to tell her that.
5. Suggest she wait two years as you don't want your reputation damaged and you are sure she would not want hers to be damaged. Then if she wants you will not impede filing at two years.

I have enough stuff on H including a couple of recordings of his ranting and drunken behaviour to horrify even the most liberal minded and sympathetic. I will not use it or mention it unless I absolutely have to. It is my defending shield not my attacking sword.

Her behaviour in withdrawing and disappearing is designed to make you apprehensive. Don't let it Jim.

Detach, still not enough detaching.

Vanilla

Clarification

I am not suggesting stalking or peeping Tom stuff!

Vanilla

Does anyone have any suggestions for some good at home GAL activities I can do on the nights I look after the kids. I'm in on my own (either wife is out with OM or hiding in her room) and frankly I'm bored.

Im thinking something not screen based.

Preferably something that is interesting to do and talk about to other people. I'm a bit stumped because I've never lived on my own before.

I am

ripping all my CDs and albums to a hard drive.
Sorting, tidying, cleaning
ironing and repairing
Cooking and researching recipes
Exercise with a powerball
Repairing stray furniture and applying shabby chic look
Mending and decorating clothes
Doing my accounts
Writing poetry and journal
Making wine and ginger beer for Xmas
Replacing light bulbs on Xmas tree
Doing my research for GAanon
Meditating and bathing and grooming
Reading personal development books
Inviting friends over for pasta and/or film/game
Doing my Fitbit account and calories
Providing mentoring on the phone
Watching self improvement videos and TED talks
Learning Portuguese
Snoozing
Taking a course in mind management
Working on a client, but research
Doing puzzles
Listening to music especially radio
I need to set up my stereo
Walking on my treadmill and cross trainer
Being here on DB
Getting stuff ready for ebay/gumtree

Starter for 10
Vanilla

I've said it before, but the 7-minute workout (Google it) is one of my best GAL activity. All you need is a chair, a wall and a mat/carpet.

Exercising is good for your spirits. It puts you in a good mood thanks to the endorphins. Also, everyone admires people who have the discipline to work out. It's attractive. The impact is also visible on my body. I was surprised to feel it on me just 2-3 weeks after I started. I have a real six-pack, my chest shaped up and my arms are slightly bigger. Everything physical is easier now, like gravity is down by 10%. It would help your squash and kickboxing. Finally, it's only 7 minutes (10 minutes in and out), so it's easy to do it every day.

I almost forgot the best: D3 and D6 LOVE doing it with me! In fact, they ask me to do it, are disappointed if we don't have the time and they talk about it to people, including W. We have a good laugh and it's just so funny to see them try to do it.

Can you think of a better at-home GAL activity?

Originally Posted By: Mozza

Perhaps you could think of the full cycle that your W needs to go through? Would it help you?

I thought i'd answer this on my own thread.

so the process my W would need to go through in my mind is
- OM would have to screw up and/or end the relationship
- Wife would have to have healed from some emotional wounds that i have inflicted, real and the ones she has subsequently convinced herself of.
- Wife would have to see my changes and believe in them
- Wife would have to realise that she could be happy with me and that a full reconcilliation is possible
- Wife has to believe that i wouldnt be punitive and controlling in accepting her back
- Wife has to be prepared to own her part of this, face her guilt, overcome her stubborness and seek reconcilliation

When i read the MLC forum its these last 3 that seem to be the most difficuly of them all and i think for any of those 3 to take place I think she would have to reach a place of absolute despair where she feels she has no other choice and she is just too independently minded for that.

either that or she has to miraculously discover the same belief in marriage that I have. That we made a commitment and that until we have jointly tried everything we should try to make it work (For us and our kids)

In terms of the arc, as i said my wife would have to hit absolute rock bottom before even thinking about coming back and i think for her BD and the way the arguement unfolded over 3 days may well have been as close as she will ever get. As she picks herself up from rock bottom she is rebuilding herself without me, rather than turning toward me.

I think the big problem I have with the timeline is the associations I make from my experience.
- My Dad divorced my Mum but he and his affair partner have now been together for 27 years. (married for 15)
- My wifes parents relationship started as an affair (both married to other people) and they were together 34 years (until he died)
- I was a WAFiance' to my ex. and that was for my W. and as you know from my situation we've been together 6 years got married and had two amazing kids. (my ex is now happily married to someone who by all accounts is a really great guy)

its the last of these that gives me the most difficulty for a bunch of reasons.

The only affair example I can think of that hasnt been relatively long term is my SIL. She left her husband but then her AP didnt leave his wife. She didnt reconcile with her husband and is now remarried.

even W's PF has been in an affair for well over a year but they are both still with their spouses (well they were a couple of months ago - its all a bit sketchy).

I keep thinking that my best bet is to somehow bust the affair (I actually think a nicely worded, unthreatening and polite letter to OM would do it) but the advice here is that I should just ignore the affair and get on with my own life.

I see better where your pessimism comes from. First, your W is very mean to you and piles up the reasons why you shouldn't be together. It's hard to imagine her warming up even though that's how it worked for most of the successful sitches. Second, you see successful affairs around you. It's a reality, acknowledged around here, that there are no guarantees.

Still, I see duplicate 'steps' in your arc. Believing your changes and that you won't be punitive are the same thing. Also, OM doesn't have to "screw up", just not to live up to the high expectations your W puts in him. You seem to seek ways to paint a bleak picture.

I wonder why you make the case like this; if it's to be convinced otherwise. I know I do it with my parents for instance and my mom picks me up, explaining why everything will be good in the end.

I'll tell you what I tell others: you don't have to decide today. The human brain is very uncomfortable with uncertainty to the point of being illogical ("I'd rather be told I have cancer now than wait another week for a diagnosis!"). If you manage to accept it, it will make you stronger. I have optimistic and pessimistic moments too. I keep my options open. In fact, I see that more than my WAW, it's me who's evolving fast.

OK so the more I think about it the more I want to bust the affair. I think this can done relatively easily by contacting OM.

I suppose I'm looking for the explanation of why I shouldn't

I'm not (knowingly) dealing with an A so I can't provide any wisdom. From what I can gather - based on reading DR and these forums - busting the A is not the MWD way. She outlines reasons for why this is so in the chapter on affairs. If you want support for busting the A there are alternative sites that advocate this approach. Not suggesting you should look elsewhere, just trying to explain why people might not be swooping in with ideas. But you probably knew all this already...

This is Michelle's message on her views on exposure.
I don't see anything in the message about confronting the OM.
She is talking about friends and family.

Quote:

Virginia

Member

Registered: 08/13/99
Posts: 698
Loc: Divorce Busting Center USA A message from Michele Weiner-Davis

Hi Divorce Busters,

It has come to my attention that some people on this message board are strongly suggesting advice that runs counter to my Divorce Busting philosophy and practice- the notion of exposing a spouse's affair to family members. While this plan may be helpful to one couple, it would completely backfire in other marriages. I have worked with many couples where the betrayed spouse revealed all the information to friends and family with extremely detrimental outcomes. First, when the unfaithful spouse discovered this had happened, he or she decided to file for divorce and it became a final decision. Secondly, there are those situations where the couple began to heal from the infidelity and get their marriage back on track, but the family members undermined the couples' efforts and even "disowned" the betrayed spouse. This made life-long commitments after infidelity a very challenging outcome because few people like giving up their family and friends. So, while I do believe that betrayed spouses need support from loved ones when dealing with such a distressing situation, it is ESSENTIAL that the information about the affair be shared CAREFULLY and with full recognition about the possible risks. I always recommend that, if information is shared, the person with whom it is shared is marriage-friendly, even in the face of infidelity. Nonetheless, it's still important to recognize potential risks.

Additionally, several people have contacted my office feeling that they had been personally attacked for not following this sort of advice. This community was started many years ago and we rarely get such complaints. Confronting others by calling names or pressuring them will not be tolerated. These tactics are not reflective of the Divorce Busting spirit.

Have a great day,

Michele

Thanks

i do know its not advised and ive read the section a few times i suppose i just dont like it.

Im slightly obsessing about this idea that OM can be spooked and that if the A is over then that gives me more chance, even though I know my W has actually just pursued OM2 etc. In the time OM1 was 'unsure'. Its as irrational as she is. I even crafted what I would say.

To me worst cases are that either/both
A) he takes it as a prod to get serious and/or
B) W sees it as more controlling behaviour (which it is, but its also not just standing by and watching my marriage end which is what it feels like I'm doing)

And actually are these any worse than my current situation?

Best case is that he runs a mile and my W doesn't blame me

I think that my first Christmas without the kids is next week and that their R is picking up significantly (w in really good mood this morning after their date last night \o/) have both got me really unhappy about the whole situation. My last post about timelines and my experience tells me that their relationship is likely to be long. He's taking it slow.

I read the progress elsewhere and just feel I'm being too passive (NC is what she wants) especially when my passivity was part of her complaints. Feel like I want to do something. After 3 months (1 for each year of marriage) she is further away than ever.

I'm still very controlled by emotions and fears, even if I'm doing a better job of recognising and understanding them.

Hi Jim

its an awooga moment as Im not in the whole A sitch (well not yet, mil is busy encouraging W to vivisect me and harvest the goodies within instead). I'd think though that you should decide on your actions but be careful. If you think speaking to the OM would work then thats soemthing thats really down to you but for goodness sakes dont emperil yourself. Im not for one minute saying you'd do anything remotely silly and I know the pain and hurt and that in your case you probably feel like its salt in the wound that w is happy with om at christmas and worse the kids will be away.

But the kids *will* be back, my fear is if something does escalate - even if OM goes - if W gets wind of what happens you could end up with less time with them or worse. If she feels youve done something to end her happiness, well you can see my concern there. I of course dont know if thats the kind of fight for me gesture she's looking for, I dont understand what MY W is trying to do or what would bring her back, half the time I dont think they know but be sure you take the right actions to make sure YOU are ok and I absolutely know you already do this every second for the kids.

You're a caring sensible guy mate, its a 5h1tty situation but be careful of yourself and what you have to lose especially in this season where those of us who have been hurt so much so recently feel it so deeply.

We're here for you mate, be careful.

Edz

I know what you mean about feeling the need to do something. I felt like that a lot at 3 months. At 6 months I'm feeling less and less that way though. As for the 1 month for every year married thing, well I'm taking that to mean 1 month for every year together. Which means (sorry to say) you have another 3 months, and I have another 9 :-(

Not sure if you saw my post about mindfulness practice. I do think it is helping me feel a bit less controlled by my emotions. As for fear, I remember Old Dog posting about a book he read (Feel the fear�and do it anyway). He liked it enough to follow up with the workshop. The reviews looked interesting on Amazon.

Are there other ways that you can seem less passive? Like establish some boundaries?

Thats how I see the comments on one month per as well, even if that means another 10 months in my case :,( If I dont see any movement after a year though I'm not sure I can keep the rope held tightly, but thats just me and I'm not there.

And this isnt my thread, slaps wrist!

I'm not holding any rope, I sent in the lawyer and walked away.

Yet it's been 10-11 months depending on which date you take. Nothing worked much apart from me taking a beating for nothing.

Originally Posted By: Ggrass

I'm not holding any rope, I sent in the lawyer and walked away.

Yet it's been 10-11 months depending on which date you take. Nothing worked much apart from me taking a beating for nothing.

Sorry to hear that Gg but if it helps you're sounding like you're a DB superstar and I certainly look forward to your posts on my thread

I suppose the thing is I'm not really taking a beating - I'm treated like I'm nothing to her. Like the creepy guy in the office who you're polite to just because he might make a complaint. But afterward you just want a shower.

There is no boundary to assert. She just ignores me unless she needs something

I can say mate, in that you are not alone but I'd put back to you what you said to me, concentrate on what you can affect and what you can do for you and the kids. You cannot change her, if it were possible all of us here would be doing it in our sitches, it 5ucks, it truly does but its where we are.

Concentrate on you and on your PMA, keep the great 180s and GAL going but ensure you also work out whats going to make Jim happy, we know that in each of our cases we can easily say what number one on that list is but focus on 2 onwards..for now.

Im not that much further on from you mate, July in my case, but I know that the feelings you describe are how I felt in August through to October this year. Being in the same house cant be helping detatching either.

In my case I still slip and find myself going into obsessing on what W is doing, planning, scheming with MIL to hurt me but for all I know she's making beans on toast and watching Criminal Minds.

You will get to a point where its just a small bit easier mate, im not sure that can happen simply while you're both in the same place I'd defer to Vanilla on that one as I wasnt in that situation as W up and left after I found the postal redirect, she never came back to stay, but I did end up living there surrounded by the past for 4 months before moving, thats made it easier and I suppose why Im nervous of plots to financially obliterate me and having to give it up.

Anywhere you can get out to on a feel better GAL around people who will remind you you're not that creepy guy? If so go, do it

Edz

Originally Posted By: jim0987

I suppose the thing is I'm not really taking a beating - I'm treated like I'm nothing to her. Like the creepy guy in the office who you're polite to just because he might make a complaint. But afterward you just want a shower.

There is no boundary to assert. She just ignores me unless she needs something

Mine ignores me 100% of the time and stated he would only do what suited him when it suited him. So far this has been true, right down to withholding the ancient UHF radio, then returns it after he received the L letter.

months after it was requested.

Thanks mate

I guess i was getting more hopeful as she is around to see me and her OM situation wasnt making her happy. I was still my own worst enemy. OM1s reappearance has just reset all of that, add Christmas and my natural pessimism (for me) and it feels a bit rubbish.

I can see so much reason for hope in so many threads but none in my own.

Actually in a lot of ways its not too bad for me on the GAL front.

Today I have the kids S1 is napping. D3 has an ear infection so had to take her to the doctors now we are having a duvet day.

I'll go for a run tonight
Ceroc dancing tomorrow (1st time so trying it out)
Out at a mates Friday (Xbox and movies)
In London for the weekend (suiting up for cocktails)
Then out for drinks after work on Monday

Just lacking on the at home by myself stuff. I'm trying the mindfulness practice - thanks granb8te - which is way harder than i thought it woukd be and I like the 7 minute work out idea. Thinking I might try and put my excessive wordiness to use and try and write a book

I think part of what bothers me (apart from the whole situation) is that I think I could be stood next to her juggling flaming Christmas trees whilst simultaneously performing surgery on injured baby tigers and singing perfectly the whole of the soundtrack to les miserable' and I don't think she would notice.

I do want to say thanks though. I know I'm in a whiney woe is me place at the monent but these boards have done an amazing job of keeping me vaguely sane. Crazy here instead.

So thanks to everyone for your continued patience, support and advice

No probs mate, I got a well deserved STFU from Vanilla yesterday after getting into an email with W (go look at the thread, MIL causing issues again) and Im now in radio blackout again, I could go on about the scary chit going through my head over that right now especially after what I learned MIL was saying but Im kicking myself (in the absense of Vanilla thumping me one) to STFU with W and just get on!

Hahaha! Your juggling of baby tigers had me laughing out loud. But she notices, I promise you she does. It's all part of her game to pretend she doesn't because her goal is to hurt you, because she's been hurt by you. That's how it reads from here. Keep improving, doing great stuff: she thinks about it.

Here's a challenge: be optimistic jim0987 for one day. You have plenty of time anyway, so you can spare a day for this. So think positive stuff, see hope in your sitch, report on it here. The following day, you can revert to your old self. But in the meantime, see where it takes you.

Speaking of hope in your sitch, you'd really prefer my situation with a handsome, attentive OM who's replaced me in family activities and drawings and is about to move in, to your W's unstable situation?

So I reread the infidelity section and it doesn't seem to say anything about busting an affair or not. So I'm confused on the pros/cons of this. Consensus seems leave it alone but I'm curious why? And if their is experience of successfully busting it?

OK, so the flaming Christmas tree and baby tiger surgery visual was very vivid and made me laugh out loud. I feel the same way with my H. I could set my hair on fire and run right up in his face and he would just have that same dead look on his face that he adopted when our sitch first started.

I agree with what Mozza said above...try being optimistic and see where that leads. I tend toward pessimism myself, so I am working SUPER hard on optimism and some days it really works well for me.

Hang in there!

Originally Posted By: jim0987

So I reread the infidelity section and it doesn't seem to say anything about busting an affair or not. So I'm confused on the pros/cons of this. Consensus seems leave it alone but I'm curious why? And if their is experience of successfully busting it?

Me again

I cant answer the last half of that but I think you need to weigh up what good would come out of it versus the fallout. As I said only you know your sitch and w well enough to make the estimate. I think from what I've read the difference between it ending without your interference and your intervening is the control aspect. I dont know if the "fighting for the marriage" aspect is bigger than the appearance of making decisions in her life aspect, I really don't know mate.

I can guess what Vanilla is going to say when she comes by though

Anyway are you not late for all these dancing martial art cocktail drinking escapades you're off out on?

Edz

I just adore the one downmanship going on here!

Adore you all but go GAL, GAL, GAL......

Its a secret weapon is GAL, it starts the PMA and keeps the mind going.

Trust me all spouses are watching like a hawk. The rest of it is all puff balls and nonsense.

Jim, hope you enjoy the Ceroc, took me 6 lessons to pick up the basics, then it was all fun after that. Ceroc will teach you to lead physically with your body in the dance, great for posture and poise. We ladies are mere shopping trolleys being guided round the floor by you guys. I am looking forward to hearing about you practicing with D3. Music is great for helping with PMA too and Ceroc music is usually quite upbeat.

I love seeing a GAL plan come to fruition.

In the same place or not. I suppose it depends on the sitch and the type of interaction. In my own case at this point I believe it is a good thing that we are in one house. Why? Well I am getting more opportunities to enforce my boundaries and reduce the abuse. We are down from 3 episodes a day to 3 mammoth episodes a week more or less.

I think H drinks slightly less, this is because I don't enable the drinking any more. I often disappear over night when I know H has been drinking and because I am more aware of H and his gambling/not gambling then I have little piece of mind whilst sharing financials. On the other hand my imagination is not as riotous as I am aware of H movements and I have learned more detachment.

I get more GAL and my PMA is evident. I play music.

Downside; the changes aren't as evident as they are happening more slowly and I still look like crap because of tooth problems, H just perceives me as a 'hypochondriac'.

No one sitch is worse than the other, it will probably be easier to detach further if the spouse is not about. More peaceful, we will see.

For those of you with children then a stable dad or mum will provide relief from stress and anxiety, whether than is in the home or not. Children are more perceptive than we think, if they know that the LBS is working to protect them and re-stabilise the family, then that's one less anxiety for them. Plus there is joy and love in GAL with children and whatever you say they chatter about the GAL and PMA, generally more than the crazies.

Bust an A or not? I think it depends on the A. My common sense says that if busting goes badly wrong there is absolutely no way back. So its a make or break move, I would have thought a final action, with no turning. This is when ALL actions have been done, LRT, going dark (sandi- not saying connected) and all possible avenues have been explored. I do not believe you are near that point yet, and you have children do you really want the effects near them?

Go GAL and keep on going GAL. Things will turn, it takes time for it to do this. Stop fretting and picking at it to make it quicker. The human mind always wants resolution as uncertainty creates dissonance. Stop forcing it to resolve and let it unfold as it will.

GAL pal
Vanilla

The chief pro is that she is in A fog and that as long as she is she isn't looking at the damage that is done everyday by her choices (and the massive long term damage associated with her moving)

Everything I've seen tells me she is convinced that she will be happy elsewhere. That she wants to find real love and that passion is with OM1. I know she us jealous of her PF even though her AP has been stringing her along for over a year.

Anyway bust the A and W might have to face the consequences if what she's done.

Big con is that she sees it as more of me trying to control her and destroy her happiness.

I did at my lowest point, just before I found here, tell her that because I loved her I would let her go.

I'm off out to get some wrapping paper (minions if possible) and see if I can get this waistcoat for tomorrows party (if not I will wear it christmas day instead - stupid collect in store!) but for now my advice is, go do something GAL, go do anything GAL but give your mind and soul a break.

I recognise the way you're thinking from my behaviour in the last few months and for you, for your sanity, go do some GAL and if its still in your mind tomorrow then think about it some more, then do some GAL.

I'll check back later..

Originally Posted By: jim0987

The chief pro is that she is in A fog and that as long as she is she isn't looking at the damage that is done everyday by her choices (and the massive long term damage associated with her moving)

Everything I've seen tells me she is convinced that she will be happy elsewhere. That she wants to find real love and that passion is with OM1. I know she us jealous of her PF even though her AP has been stringing her along for over a year.

Anyway bust the A and W might have to face the consequences if what she's done.

Big con is that she sees it as more of me trying to control her and destroy her happiness.

Yes when an A is going on they are all like that! This is what an A does. Its like saying a dog barks, a drunk drinks or a fiddler plays, its what they do. And until they come out of it that's how it will be, I am not sure busting it helps. I can move the A to the next stage (when it otherwise wouldn't have done) and it can cause failure of the A then that was likely anyway. Can move them on to another one.

Think Clinton

"I did not have sex with that woman" Monica Lewinski

after saying

"There is no truth in the accusations of that woman" Jenifer Flowers

And boy did he get busted!

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. I trust you have hard evidence too.

Vanilla

Actually the bust that would work is to contact OM and tell him that Im sure he's a decent guy otherwise why would my W break up a family for him. That the affair was my W choice and that the workplace consequences are entirely for them to worry about. As long as he doesn't hurt my kids and provides them a safe home I won't wish him harm.

Originally Posted By: jim0987

Actually the bust that would work is to contact OM and tell him that Im sure he's a decent guy otherwise why would my W break up a family for him. That the affair was my W choice and that the workplace consequences are entirely for them to worry about. As long as he doesn't hurt my kids and provides them a safe home I won't wish him harm.

With due respect there is nothing about OM that is a 'decent' guy!
Jim, why would appealing to the better nature of an adulterer who has already rejected W (he is her ex) after all, help at all?

And he has a choice to be a home wrecker!

If W looses her job that will cause big problems wont it?

Can someone give this Jim a great big 2x4, because clearly this isn't Jim at all

An astonished

Vanilla

Its not appealing to his better nature - he's scared of commitment

Originally Posted By: jim0987

Its not appealing to his better nature - he's scared of commitment

Then it won't last! Let it run its course, better this than someone who will want commitment.

Get down from that ledge.

Vanilla

Ok so no is the consensus.

Something you said vanilla really sparked a train of thought

Originally Posted By: vanilla

If W looses her job that will cause big problems wont it?

My reaction was 'it's only a problem for me if she comes back'

And that's because if she lost her job I would have proof of the adultery which would swing all the proceedings in my favour and it would teach her a lesson. But that's actually a really vindictive thought

I then unpicked that
- my disregard for her hurt is because I'm hurting
- I'm hurting because she picked him over me which is because I'm angry.
- I'm angry because I don't feel she tried to make us work
- I'm angry I won't get to see my kids
- and I'm back to my fear of being alone.

So this is all the negative emotions.

If I try and come from a place of love instead I get wanting her to be happy regardless but that conflicts massively with my selfish position of wanting her back and wanting to save the marriage.

Having said that they are using company (public) money to pay for their little rendezvous' so if it does come out they could be in quite a bit of trouble.

I hope a vet will weigh in.

I've no firm opinion on the exposure, but I admit that it looks a half-baked plan. jim0987, you need to envision exactly how it would go, either way. What if the OM just brush you off or laughs at you? More humiliation. What if he attempts to exact revenge? What other scenarios are there? How exactly would your W fall back in love with you because you've done this? It seems like those who have exposed an A, like Starsky, were facing a WAW with a certain sense of shame. Even sandi2 backed off when her daughter told her she knew everything. Would your W suddenly realize what she's doing? Would she come back to you because OM backs off after your communication?

Perhaps it's because I've no experience and don't have an opportunity to expose since my W did it in the open (left me, got with him, not sure in what order though...) and because I feel that my W has to experience the A to value our M. In your case, perhaps she doesn't need the A to come back.

Also, I'm afraid that you do this out of pessimism, because you imagine the current moment to last forever. A week ago, Rzrback saw his sitch turn around in 24 hours.

There is level of shame there. She tells herself its not an affair - it is

She has told everyone it was all me but not mentioned OM

She made me quit my old job because she was so embarrassed by what people at work thought.

She has always had anxiety about what people think of her

He obviously has doubts otherwise he wouldn't have had his initial trepidation. So now has the best chance.

And there is zero chance of reconciliation while the A is ongoing

W is already using her maiden name. (She never changed half her accounts anyway) moving out, and wanting divorce. I suppose I don't see how it makes it worse even if it spectacularly backfires

Hey Jim, she does notice! Stop trying so hard and worrying if she is watching or not, make your changes for you.

Sorry Guys. Couldn't manage the positivity today.

Its 3.5 hours old and gone really badly - big backslide this morning. I had to dump the kids at nursery and leave before i broke down into a blubbering heap in front of them. I now wont see them until sunday night and really i have no more quality time with them until the 27th December.

I didnt sleep well - kept having dreams about W and OM. I tried some of the mindfulness techniques which calmed me down but only for a little bit.

Anyway woke up this morning and i was just in a grump. I tried to not show it but.....

W was sat next to me on the bed and not talking (like every morning). I knew she was annoyed about the fact she has to work today and so i asked her about it. As we talked I said a bunch of stuff which included indirect criticism of OM1 and culminated in me saying something about the culture of her work place being really unhealthy with the way people mix work and personal relationships (70 staff, at least 1 marriage per year ended due to workplace affairs - I didnt say this bit)

Because i was in a grump everything i said was just laced with digs and barbs. Sure i dressed it up as part of the conversation but my W is smarter than that and so would have seen them for what they were. This is my passive aggressive nonsense coming out because i wasnt able to control my negative emotions and move to a more postive place

I topped this off with some under the breathe muttering.

we had a couple of other bits of conversation where my W fely i was overeacting when i didnt think i was, but given how the rest of the conversation went i would believe her

Last night I threw away and old mothers day card for her from the kids. Now i knew she would want to keep it but threw it away anyway and in the bin where i knew she would see i had thrown it away. she called me out on it and i said 'i'm sorry, i didnt think, i should have asked you'. But W and I both know its more of my nonsense.

we did finally manage to talk about the arrangements for christmas and new year, but I managed to lace this conversation with more barbs and insuation.

so not good, certainly not giving my W a positive impression. I just looked weak, manipulative and snarky - so not very attractive. certainly not when things with OM1 are going so well.

On reflection this pattern of behaviour has been fairly typical of me for the last 3 years and reminds me why the end of my marriage is not about OM1. It also shows how difficult the changes are for me and how it will be nearly impossible for my W to believe them. There is a bunch of pseudopsychological analysis of mine coming here.

The only thing I successfully validated this morning was her decision to leave

some scripting help please if you dont mind:

So I need to email my W this morning to confirm the christmas arrangements and i would like to try and make this email a success. Its is the last interaction i will have with W until sunday and so i'd rather it was relatively positive/constructive given the damage i did this morning.

this is what i'm thinking

Hey

Thank you for your help with the kids this morning. Its much appreciated.

I forgot to pick up the money for the DVD but it should be on my window sill if you want to grab it before you collect the kids

Just to confirm the arrangements for christmas and new year that we discussed this morning. Hopefully its about right.

KIDS SCHEDULE

If i've missed something or it doesn't quite work for you let me know

I know I wasnt in the best of moods this morning, please accept my apologies for that. Facing my first christmas without the kids has upset me but I know I need to do better with how I express that.

I hope that business case doesnt take too long and you can enjoy some of your planned day off.

Have a nice weekend with the kids

Jim

Does this sound about right. I dont want to be too weak and needy but at the sametime i dont want to pretend like i think my attitude this morning was fine.

Hi Jim, nothing is glaring out at me as being particularly off with that email, except that it is possibly overly upbeat to compensate for this morning? I think that is ok though. Did she say anything this morning that you could validate now?

Just my 2c.

Originally Posted By: jim0987

some scripting help please if you don't mind:

As amended by Vanilla as I cant do the groovy colours and crossing out bit.

Hey

I appreciate your help this morning and I apologize for being out of sorts.

The money for the DVD is on my window sill.

Just to confirm the arrangements for Christmas and New Year that we discussed this morning.

KIDS SCHEDULE

If it needs more clarity please let me know.

Enjoy your day off and have a fun weekend with the kids.

Jim

If you feel the need to apolgise, just do it and don't rationalise why, its not needed and I think weakens an apology.

Just my 2 cents. Wonka is this more KISS?

Tons
Vanilla

So interesting day

W rang me at work to tell me to chase my solicitors and to ask for their details so she could ring them as it was now holding up her house purchase. (i have already provided the same details 3 times)

I asked for her solicitors details which she was yet to provide despite repeated requests. anyway i held my ground a little and she sent through the details at last. I didnt refuse to send mine but i was insistent on her sending hers.

I explained that i had done all i needed to do and it was all waiting on paperwork from her. she seemed to accept this and blamed the solicitors. I feel i was courteous but solid throughout.

Anyway it seems she will be moving out just after christmas at which point we will both be broke and she can fully enjoy her new relationship in the comfort of her new home.

I was upset after this and so texted a work friend who knows what is happening and we went for coffee. she has been a great comfort and help to me. She invited me to join their work christmas do as someone had dropped out and i decided that although i planned to go ceroc dancing this would be an equally good bit of GAL so went

It was nice, though my mind was stuck on my wife and the fact that after her works christmas do she went back to a hotel with OM1. at one point i got upset and had to go outside for some air before i broke down in tears in front of 30 people from work. I felt like just going home.

after a few minutes my friend came and found me and gave me a hug. she said she was worried about me but would understand if i went home at that point. I decided that if i left she would worry more and so i stayed, but instead of moping i made an effort to engage with people and by the time i left i felt better and much calmer.

on the way home i was thinking more and more about whether i should file. I'm not prepared to live in an open marriage and equally i'm deeply concerned about what my wife will do once she moves out. I realised that she has either left me for another man and is lying about it (on top of a load of other lies) or she has been very dishonest with me over a much longer period of time. either way not someone to put a lot of trust in.

So I've asked my solictor a bunch of questions about filing on the grounds of adultery (basically pursuing a fault divorce) and if they come back as i think, then I will likely tell them them to get ready to file and i will think about it more over the weekend. I said a few posts back about the pros and cons of this but actually in the scheme of things the cons pale compared to the other issues any reconcilliation would have to overcome.

I hate this and I hate what it means for me, my kids and the time we will spend together. At somepoint though i have to stand up for myself.

Yes, stand up for jim.

Look at works best for the long term goals here. At this stage it's looking like a lone game, so work towards that picture.

Do worry about mrs jim, that's her sand pit to dig In as she sees fit. Looks like she's not digging a very fast or efficient type of hole. Be prepared for a long ride.

Quote:

So they have walked away and they feel enormous guilt for that and don�t dare face that, after all they have been wracked with guilt for so long about so many things (in their head they are a failure after all) that they don�t want to face it anymore

If they are chased it just reminds them how much hurt they have caused and they can�t bare the guilt
If they aren�t chased then its proof they were never really loved in the first place
If they are told they are forgiven they don�t believe it as there is no way someone could forgive them for all they�ve done and they have proved how awful they are
If the LBS improves their life (DB) then its proof that that the LBS is better off without them.

At some point down the line they will start to realise that they still aren�t happy and start to think one of the following

1) LA LA LA LA LA I�m not listening, i don�t want to think about this LA LA LA LA
2) This is all the LBS� fault � I hate them and never want to see them again
3) This is all the LBS� fault � I want to make them as miserable as me so they know how I feel
4) This is my fault but this is better for everyone
5) I�ve made a mistake but it is all LBS� fault and they need to make it up to me
6) This is my fault and I�ve made a terrible mistake but I�ve done so much damage there is no way I could undo this. I�m not worth it and/or i don�t know how and/or its too hard.
7) This is my fault and I�ve made a terrible mistake and i will do whatever it takes to undo that mistake

Over time they may change their mind and switch from one to other but as has been said so many times it takes two to make a relationship work and only one to destroy it, and for some if they ever reach 7 they might find it�s too late.

Jim, you wrote this on GoatGal's thread, and it really speaks to me. You seem to get the MLC thing pretty well. So I read your thread. No surprise - like many of us, you are lucid on other's threads yet in your own sitch, things are much more complicated, because then it's personal. If you are still ruminating about whether to expose, from my experience, I'd advise against. If you want to run some ideas, i'll engage, if it will help.

Thanks zew, GGrass.

I don't think I've entirely backed down from wanting to expose but actually its more to do with what's next

My wife is showing herself to be very dishonest and so whilst I'd rather wait the two years for a no fault divorce I find it very difficult to believe that she will.

I will gladly own my failings but ultimately she is choosing to end the marriage and despite her protests she hasn't tried to fix it, and the main reason is that she is in love with OM1.

So I suppose my view is that I will be divorced from my wife so why roll over and accept her blaming me when her adultery is why its ending (not why there were problems). Its probably an ego thing buy frankly I have enough esteem issues already

Despite all of that I would still rather reconciliation and do not wish to damage that prospect. I think I just need to be realistic and act accordingly

Jim

You don't ' know' she is in love with OM1, it could be infatuation. What you do 'know' is she is A with him.

If this is the way you feel take L advice and do what is right for Jim. Don't do it to punish W. Move swiftly though. Starsky is probably your best advisor on this, his thoughts are solid. I am unsure if you should name OM1 and 2.

Know that once you have filed a fault divorce then you may need proof not just suspicion. In case of denial.

Comment about your words on goatgal thread if WAS really think any of those things they are not ready to R. Then piecing can't begin until WAS have full acceptance not half way.
It will be alright in the end, if it's not alright it's not the end and the fat lady has not sung.

Vanilla

((((Jim)))) so sorry for your rough time at the party. Thank goodness for friends, though, right? Hang in there. I LOVE Vanilla's last line in her comment above "It will be alright in the end, if it's not alright it's not the end and the fat lady has not sung." VERY, very true.

Could have gone to Ceroc instead!

Vanilla

Jim0987: Have you read "Somewhere inside, a path to empathy", the New York Times "Modern Love" column from 2009 about love and Asperger? It's among their most popular of the last decade.

I've got a quiet saturday in my house by myself and actually i'm alright i think. I thought about how lonely i might feel and although i miss my wife (and hate her A) i'm ok.

Had a nice night out with a mate last night and stayed over at theirs.

bought the kids christmas presents this morning and i have a couple of hours just relaxing at home before going to a different mates tonight. (cocktails in london plan has changed but financially thats probably a good thing)

anyways so i'm sat writing up a bit more of my personal development psychoanalysis stuff (unsure whether to post it) and watching TED talks in the background.

I'm posting now because I just watched a TED talk which for those who have followed my thread seemed remarkably appropriate and thought id share it

Getting Stuck in the Negatives - Amy Ledgerwood

Jim. Just read you last two pages of posts. Sh@t. That's tough. You are going through hell. Time will heal but that's not what you want to hear. You are a very young man and you will come through this because you have no choice. Your W is doing so much harm it's unreal Keep on with the mindfulness and relaxation Keep busy and bring up good memories when times get hard. I know exactly how you feel and it's horrible It can only get better. Take care and post often. Things can change Jim. They really can Life is never set in stone TAke care. Rd

Originally Posted By: Mozza

Jim0987: Have you read "Somewhere inside, a path to empathy", the New York Times "Modern Love" column from 2009 about love and Asperger? It's among their most popular of the last decade.

Not read those so i think some more reading to do. Thanks for the recommendations

"We don�t see things as they are, we see them as we are." Anais Nin

WARNING: Another bit of my random pseudo psychoanalysis and it�s quite the essay. It�s trying to explain me and why I do what I do. Not much that new but trying to explain things to others has always been a good way for me of figuring stuff and sharing it feels like a commitment device. If I�ve told people then its true kind of thing. Anyway feel free to skip this post if this kind of analysis isn�t your thing but if you do read it, thank you and I�d welcome any thoughts or insights you have.

WARNING: It�s really REALLY long, like 5,500 words.

I�m now 34 and since I was 19 I�ve had 2 relationships, both long term and both failed (9yrs & 6yrs). In both cases the major reasons for their failure was down to me and the ending was near enough identical just my role is reversed (WAS to LBS). Unhappiness led to an emotional affair which led to an ending of the relationship and quick movement to a physical relationship (whether it�s an affair or not is debating point). Anyway looking ahead to any future relationship it�s clear that �I�m damaged goods� and that for a lot of people I will have too much �baggage�.

What ever the reasons in my current situation the reality is that in the next couple of weeks she will be moved out, we will be financially and soon to be legal separated and she is in a fully fledged relationship with another man.

I�ve talked about a lot of what my wife has said about me and the way she has described me to others with regard to why she has made this choice, but it is difficult to separate out what is script and what is genuine complaint. She has been very clear that our relationship is over because she doesn�t want to be with me even taking into account what that means for the kids and that it has nothing to do with the other man (which she denies anyway). She has also said that she hasn�t loved me for a long time and that without the feelings it would be pointless to try and make our marriage work. Given the long standing unhappiness and her behaviour since BD I actually believe this and that OM was a temptation which once she made the decision to go she had no reason to not pursue.

Whether this is true or not, it is clear that if I had been a better husband then the temptation for other man wouldn�t have been there (unless my wife has serious issues in which case I couldn�t have done anything about this) and I genuinely believe what MWD says about one person can do what is needed to improve a marriage and give it the best chance of success. It means I realise that if I want the best chance of future happiness I need to understand what went wrong and what I contributed to that and more specifically what I need to do to stop that happening again.

To be absolutely clear though, although I did a number of things wrong and can see how terrible some of my behaviour was, I always wanted my wife to be happy and I wanted (and still want) to spend the rest of my life with her raising our two children together.

Now I happen to believe that I am a good father. I am hands on and dedicate time to my kids. I am loving and nurturing toward them. Sometimes I get cross at them but then sometimes children test boundaries. I always shared the load (fun stuff and domestic stuff) when I was present although clearly my W took the majority of the burden while breast feeding and on maternity leave. I was only not present when at work. I also have a day a week where I look after the kids on my own. My wife and I have very similar views on how kids should be raised, what they should be encouraged to do and discussed and agreed the �rules� we would teach the kids. I genuinely believe that if my wife believes I�m a good father (and I think she does) then the other issues must be even greater.

For the most part I believe the demise of our relationship stems from the dynamic between us and in particular how we managed difficulties and interpreted each other. The Karpman drama triangle resonates quite strongly with me regarding our dynamic. I seriously doubt this is a unique insight.

Reading through various literature I can discover all kinds of theories about who I am and my profile. For those of the Myers Briggs persuasion I�m an ENTJ. Certainly the reading is useful and when looking at the descriptions and seeing what fits I realise I can describe my self as an �Egotistical, Co-dependent, low self worth socially anxious nice guy�. There is a also a small possibility that I have some element of an Autism Spectrum Disorder (ADD, AD/HD, Aspergers or similar)

Whilst these are great to understand and certainly interesting, having a descriptor is not the same as understanding what drives it and more importantly what to do about it in the future. So to that end I�ve tried to understand my key issues, how they manifested themselves and therefore how I need to adapt my behaviour.

Before I go into this I will briefly say that a lot of this stems from my childhood which although wasn�t bad (certainly compared to a lot of people) it did not equip me and educate me for the kind of man I want to be. My family dynamics were such that I felt like I did not matter and that conflict (or asking for something) was to be avoided as it resulted for me in shame (Mum and Gran), Violence (Brother), belittling and humiliation (Dad).

School was not much better, let�s just say I was seriously uncool, academically good but didn�t try and bullied quite a lot. I found it really hard to tell if people were just playing me, if they were nice I wanted to believe its because they liked me and then eventually they would turn on me in some way (or got involved in drugs but that�s a whole other story). I have never been good at understanding the whole social rules thing and even though one of my LLs is physical touch, handshakes and hugs make me really uncomfortable.

For reference my Love languages for receiving are physical touch and quality time although I give gifts to show love (this is what I learnt from my parents and my dad will still congratulate himself on the great job he did because of the toys we had)

Low Self Worth
Now there is one key issue that underpins everything about me that has caused me issues and that is I have low self worth. I do not value myself and fundamentally do not believe anyone else does � I am not worth the effort. I know this to be a ridiculous statement, every ounce of my logical, rational mind tells me this is stupid but it is how I feel and it is the filter through which I see the world. For example in typing this out my instinct is that it�s just going to annoy people who take the time to read it because why would they care what I think about me. I hope it doesn�t.

This low self worth drives my fears, warps how I interpret what is happening around me, and manifests itself in a whole bunch of negative attitudes and behaviours.

Now if I could rationally convince myself that its nonsense I would but that�s the same as trying to rationalise with my wife about working on the marriage. It is ingrained in me and without it I do not know who I am. The only thing I truly �know� about me is that I�m not enough and so to let go of this is a scary prospect no matter how sensible that might be.

I wrote a bunch of stuff on GGGs thread on this which was meant as my interpretation of her H and how low self worth distorts things but for me it was easy to write as I realise it is a lot how I see myself. The link is here if you�re interested but it�s another essay.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2512085&page=5

Negative Behaviours
For me the low self worth is the elephant. I do not know how to take it down, what I can do is look at some of the negative behaviours that it gives me and try and address these in the hope that it weakens this core belief.

So what are these behaviours that need addressing or more to the point what is the intermediary between these behaviours and the core belief of low self worth. Well I�m just going to list the behaviours first (no particular order)

Sulking, Sarcasm, sneering and smirking, Rumination, Barbed remarks, Leading questions, pettiness, Passive aggressiveness, excessive monitoring, Snooping, Procrastination, Forgetfulness, Tardiness, Insensitivity, Silence, Withdrawal, Avoidance, Guilt manipulation, judgemental, shame, secrecy, anger, resentment, dominant in decisions.

Now I didn�t think I did this or certainly wasn�t willing to accept that I did but the more I reflect on this the more I realise that this was always in me and present but as my relationship deteriorated this kind of behaviour escalated. I�m now much more aware of when and how I did this. My wife had said a number of times that I �chipped away at her self esteem� with my �little remarks and sneers�. Again this is something I refused to see and would just come back with a �yeah but.....�

I will say though that I have never hit her, threatened her, raised a hand toward her, or physically intimidated. I think the most physical I�ve ever got is to slam a door behind me as I left a room (twice in 6 years maybe) and I kicked a footstool on BD. I�ve rarely raised my voice (if ever) and I don�t recall ever directly criticising, insulting or verbally abusing her.

In terms of the intermediaries then what are the problems/issues/attitudes that need to be addressed. I�ve identified seven major ones, though this may be too many. These are:

1) It�s not fair, It�s not my fault, and I�m the victim here.........
2) Unreasonable expectations
3) Emotional awareness/intelligence
4) Avoidance and withdrawal
5) Poor communication skills
6) Negative rumination

For each of these I�m going to try and explain what I mean, give an example and then make a suggestion for what I think I should have done differently. I hope that by doing this I can better understand these and more importantly change my behaviour in the future.

1) It�s not fair, It�s not my fault, and I�m the victim here.........
I actually wrote this from the starting point of saying my intermediary issue was that I make everything about me. I�ve been told this many times and it�s something I could connect with because I do tend to make everything about me. I wrote out a fairly convincing explanation of this but when I came to my ideas for corrective behaviours the most obvious was to think of alternative explanations and I realised I already do this. In realising this I realised that saying its all about me is not the whole story, I should have said �its all about me the victim�

The major difference is that when I look for alternative explanations I really look for those that mean I don�t really have to own the responsibility for what is happening either because it�s not my fault or because it�s something I can�t change. These are the �yeah, buts.........� and can include escalation to make the other party seem so unreasonable that I can shift the blame and guilt onto them.

It�s because you don�t understand me
It�s because you reject me
It�s because you did X, Y or Z

This is particularly affective if you can give the appearance of taking some of the blame yourself for something minor on non-specific. You�ve said sorry for something small and so you can ignore the big stuff because you�ve already shown contrition.

So a good example is my tardiness, I�m always late for things and I�m quick with the excuse that the traffic was bad or that something held me up, when the reality is I was just late because I was being inconsiderate or what to just do something first. This means my apology is and I�m sorry but [ITS NOT MY FAULT]. Most people accept this but I know the truth and its a little bit more guilt to add to the pile and further lower my opinion of myself.

This then extends further so that when my wife was telling me she was stressed I made it all about the unfair pressure she was putting me under and how unreasonable that was with all the other pressure that was on me. Rather than listen to her issues, I made myself the victim. My wife was unhappy and I focused on how her unhappiness was affecting me.

All of this can be nicely summed up by a question I asked at BD:
�Why don�t YOU love me?�

The solution here is on the face of it relative straight forward.
- Recognise and acknowledge the other persons hurt,
- be honest about my actions,
- be clear about and own the things I�ve done wrong and
- Be sincere in my apologies without making excuses.
- Actively seek positive and constructive solutions rather than focusing on hurt and blame

2) Unreasonable Expectations
NMMNG refers to this as covert contracts and is certainly something I do. I would act (or not) in certain ways based on my expectation of how it would influence my wife�s behaviour, how I expected it to make her feel and most significantly what i expected her to do in return for me. When any one of these was not met i would take this as rejection or some sort of slight all based on my initial assumptions and expectations. Sometimes the expectations were not covert but instead were inconsiderately or inappropriately stated which at best contributes to confusion or at worst sounds like an ultimatum

Having these kinds of expectations leads to frustration and resentment when they aren�t met. In my case that in turn became unhealthy behaviours such as sulking and withdrawing or efforts to try and have these expectations met through more manipulative behaviour.

When linked very closely to this is a lack of gratitude and acknowledgement even when expectations are met, or a comment on the bits that weren�t quite right, this conveys a sense of �not good enough� and can easily be interpreted as criticism. Especially if small routine �acts of service� and kindness are taking for granted or imperfections pointed out.

The best example here is without doubt in relation to our sex life. Our sex life came to an abrupt and complete halt on medical advice 4 years ago due to pregnancy complications. Through this period I understood what was happening and why, but it did not stop me feeling the gap in intimacy between my wife and I. After a year of this the first tentative starts of a returning sex life were appearing and (it was at this point my wife met her ex and lied about it setting off a whole cascade). Over the next 3 years we had sex maybe 30 times, always at my wife�s discretion and she was very controlling with it all � I started accepting bad anxious sex because at least it was sex. Initiation by me was met with rejection and normal affection was assumed to be an attempt at initiation and so met with rejection.

I became resentful about this but always looked for why it wasn�t my fault (see 1 above) and so put it down to post natal hormones and assumed it would �just come back� (it has but for OM1). As I got more resentful I made comments here or there to say I was dissatisfied, I would make jokes about the things that had seemed to work before saying we should do more of that, and I bought lingerie and cooked romantic meals thinking it was a mood thing. When I did ask my wife about it she always said it was a body confidence issue following two babies, I dismissed this rather than validating and reassuring.

All of this just put pressure on my wife, communicated that she wasn�t fulfilling me, and that I was more interested in sex than her. After a while I backed right off in an attempt to not to pressure but by this stage (and with other issues going on) this was actually just withdrawal and carried resentment with it.

Looking back I also realise that over time I yielded more and more control in other aspects of our life, weakened my boundaries and became less assertive. I walked on eggshells out of concern that a misstep on my part would immediately be used as the reason for us to not have sex.

In this specific example there are whole books about what I should have done differently in this circumstance but looking back I think that the change in my behaviour that was needed was to show more understanding and give loving reassurance. When my non-initiating affection was rejected, rather than feeling the rejection and being snarky, I needed to recognise my wife�s anxiety and try to engage lovingly, positively and supportively with that.

So addressing this comes in the form of the following behavioural changes for me
- Act in a loving way without expectations
- Communicate openly and lovingly about issues and concerns
- Take responsibility for my own happiness
- Show more gratitude in general and for the things I like.

3) Emotional awareness/intelligence
I am not very good at recognising my emotions in the moment and therefore I am entirely controlled by them. Whether this fear or anger or upset I allow my emotions to override my behaviour At the same time I attempt to suppress my emotions and convince myself I�ve got it under control and that I�m being calm and rational. Sometimes it works sometimes it causes them to fester and worsen into more negative emotions and behaviours.

Recently I have started re-examining my emotions with hindsight and get a much better understanding of what was truly driving me at the time but I am still struggling with them in the moment. Although recent efforts are at least giving me pause and soothed some of my defensive reactions.

This same issue also exists when trying to read and understand other people emotions, although I might recognise their emotion some of my other issues mean I can often misinterpret these. What is more significant is that I don�t recognise the affect those emotions are having on me, often leading to an immature or insensitive emotional response. What I do sense is a loss of control and therefore significant negative emotions trigger a very strong flight reflex in me or instead frantic efforts to remove rather than engage with the issue.

In practical terms it means that when my wife has been emotional about something she has tended to get an unsupportive response such as
- Fix rather than support
- Defensive rather than listening
- dismissive rather than empathetic

Ultimately this failure to engage with the emotions has meant that I have taken many things literally when I should have read between the lines and more significantly missed the whole picture of what my wife was trying to tell me.

A good example here is the morning routine where I delayed made my departure for work to help my wife get the kids ready. This delay made me regularly late and caused other problems at work, I was frustrated as I felt my wife was quilting me in to staying and so blamed her for �making me late�. I dismissed her concerns, was defensive and accusatory about the affect it had on me (I was the victim), kept offering �fixes� like �YOU should get up earlier� and ultimately ending up sulking or making unreasonable statements about �defrauding my employer�

Because I did not engage with emotions healthily, I did not recognise the unreasonableness of my behaviour and that I was following the drama triangle (not that I had heard of this then). I also did not recognise that actually this was a cry for help from my wife to say that she was feeling pressured and that this was adding to her unhappiness.

Instead what I needed to do was to recognise my wife�s position but at the same time my own boundary and find a constructive and loving way to address this together. I believe that it would have been better to say something more like.
�How we are working the mornings doesn�t seem to be working very well at the moment, can we make some time to see if there is a better way that makes it easier for both of us�

The problem for me is about recognising emotions at the time and then taking a different more positive path. With some aspects I have found that taking a breath and trying to consciously recognise what is happening emotionally on both sides is helping, but it is a struggle for me that will require more practice and more patience.

4) Avoidance and withdrawal
Personally this I think this is the biggest one for me. I will do almost anything to avoid confrontation and the risk of conflict which means most of the time I sit and stew until sometimes it explodes a high stress way, often frantic restlessness (on BD I sorted a giant box of filling because I had to do something). This avoidance extends to other areas of my life and causes different problems such as my very significant social anxiety.

If I do ever want to get into something my style is to be very unassertive and use falsely leading questions or statements laced with hidden implications. Looking critically at this I realise that I do this so that I always have an escape and plausible deniability if it doesn�t go as planned. However this meant I would say things to lead a conversation to a sensitive topic but not be clear about it, I would then panic and change the subject.

On a number of occasions I would say something like �you just want someone taller� which unsurprisingly my wife took as me saying I didn�t trust her and thought she would cheat on me (which ironically she is) but I don�t think I ever believed she would cheat. On reflection when I said this, what I was actually trying to say is

�I�m worried about your unhappiness and worried that its something I�m doing, I would like to fix it but I�m scared what your going to say especially if its something I cant fix�

My fear of being open meant I avoided this topic and many others, in the same way my fear of further rejection meant that after a while of my wife saying no to affection I simply stopped offering (and was not grateful for the affection I did get). In the end my determination to avoid rejection meant I was working really hard to maintain the distance I thought my wife wanted when all the time she was desperately lonely. And most ridiculously of all I still felt hurt and rejected, before suffering the ultimate betrayal and rejection of my wife�s affair.

The avoidance and rejection is symptomatic of my low self worth. The corrective behaviour for it is to act confidently, assertively and from a place of love. So using the example above �you just want someone taller� would have been better expressed as �I�m concerned about us and I would like to talk with you about it�

The basis of the difference is the underlying assumption about the person�s feelings towards you, if you assume they love you and do not wish to hurt you then it easier to approach openly and without fear. Obviously this is different when they decide to reject and leave you.

This is a tough one to resolve for me as I have not found a way to suddenly become confident and assertive. I think for the most part it is about recognising the fear, understanding that avoiding it isn�t any better and possibly worse and so finding the courage to do it anyway. I used to be nervous about public speaking but I have now done it so many times I am fine with it � I need to adopt the same principle in other areas of my life

5) Poor communication skills
In addition to what has already been said about the how I said the wrong things and engaged in the wrong ways, it is important to say that I also have some difficulty with communicating in general, especially when I�m feeling anxious or distressed. I would try to explain but this extract from an article I read sums it up pretty well.
....(he) seems hesitant or unsure while he searches through his mental file cabinet for the right word or phrase. During this time, the "lottery ball effect" takes over. Instead of numbered balls flying around until they drop down the tube, a word, idea or fragment of an incomplete thought may randomly and impulsively come out of the individual's mouth. If it is inappropriate, he may then respond by saying, "Oh, I didn't mean that!" Oftentimes, however, The recipient of the remark has difficulty believing he didn't mean it, especially if inappropriate remarks are made frequently.

Improving this is something I�m trying to explore options on but since I know it is anxiety and emotional stress that worsens this work to improve my emotional intelligence should help.

6) Negative rumination
Negative rumination and the inability to let things go has always been a problem for me. It is worse late at night when I am lying in bed without distraction. It was this and my inability to stop that led to me haranguing my wife about her sexual history shortly after we were married. It was the rumination itself and subsequent questioning that caused the problems rather than any of the specific triggers which started me on that path. I did a tremendous amount of damage to the already weakened trust and bond between my wife and me at that time.

I have yet to find an effective mechanism for controlling this, other than documenting and clarifying the thoughts in an effort to find a constructive and more positive conclusion (it allows me to apply logic). I have tried the mental stop sign and even tried a physical stop sign but they have not worked as yet. Following some advice I am trying mindfulness practice and more time with reduce external stimuli to try and better control my thinking.

Example
I want to wrap this analysis on me with an example which I think really highlights how my issues are a really closely intertwined set of problems. This example was the trigger for BD and one of the final straws for my wife�s decision to end the marriage:

On the Friday of BD weekend, I came home to find my wife crying in the lounge. This was not a new thing as she regularly had days where she said she found the kids too much for her. I took over on childcare duties and only cursory asked if she was ok (avoidance). I suggested she go and have a rest (emotional intelligence) while I sort the kids out (rescuing). Once the kids were in bed I went to talk to her, I did not approach and kept my distance (withdrawal and avoidance), I asked what was wrong and she said she was lonely, I hesitantly said (poor communication) that she should see if her friends would do something (emotional intelligence, backseat driving and expectations) and that she should lie down for a bit, while I go an do all the tidying and chores (avoidance and withdrawal). I didn�t ask any more but expected her to talk to me if there was a problem (expectations and avoidance) � she didn�t but I could sense something was very wrong (rumination) this rumination grew and fester until I couldn�t avoid any longer and demanded to know �why she was shutting me out� (I�m the victim).

Had I done everything perfectly I don�t think it would have made much difference (there�s a chance it would have surprised her so much she would have considered counselling) but I think the example demonstrates the range of ways my negative behaviour influence what happens.

What I do know is that I should copy good examples where i see it. A friend of mine is a very caring and considerate person, and the other day she knew I was upset and came to find me. When she did she gave me hug and told me very clearly that she was worried about me and that she wishes there was something she could do to take my pain away. Her openness, honesty and genuine care was very comforting to me even though she didn�t actually do anything and I realise it is exactly the kind of comfort and support that i needed to show my wife.

So what does all this mean?
Well for one it means my wife has legitimate complaints. My behaviour and attitude were not what you would want from a husband or to live with and they are something I am ashamed of.

The core of her issue with our relationship is that she did not feel safe. I did not understand this before as you would see in my early posts but it is the common theme � she did not feel safe and did not trust I would be there for her. Now I believe she means that i did not make her feel warm, nurtured, cared for and protected instead ; That I would face the difficulties of the world with her or comfort her when she was sad. I suspect that instead she felt judged and feared that if there was ever a true issue like her fathers Parkinson�s or my mothers MS, then i would not be there to care for her.

Several times I have looked at the big occasions where I have let her down but having gone through this I believe it is the small consistent actions set against the back drop of those big let downs that have caused the greatest harm.

The route to forgiveness though is to learn, adapt and fix what needs fixing so that I do not repeat any of these behaviours. I feel I have made good strides since BD but I have not yet been consistent enough to really show true change. I am however confident that with perseverance and support I can make the small consistent changes stick.

To that end I intend to make a small list of values by which to live my life and use that as the guide for my decisions and my behaviour. Where i�m unsure I will seek advice.

Although I can identify ways in which my wife could equally have done more to help our marriage, that is her sandbox and not something I should concern myself with unless she decides to recommit to our family. Equally I cannot know whether, even if I was the perfect husband, she would have still pursued her affair or ever truly been happy.

What about reconciliation?
I do not know, I do still want this but I do not believe there is much chance of this. The changes my wife would need to see would not be seen outside the context of a relationship and living together.

Irrespective, my wife has now emotionally, physically and financially committed to our divorce and her relationship with OM1 and that having been made a cuckold I�m am now the unnecessary and inconvenient third wheel in her life. Therefore any changes in me will not be considered while the infatuation and new relationship glow remains. There is little or nothing I can do about this and therefore it is something I will, with great sadness, have to accept and instead try and do the best I can for our children.

My only hope for reconciliation would come from the failure and disappointment of her relationship with OM1 which given what she has invested in this would result in tremendous hurt. Even then there is very little probability that she would wish to return to a relationship with me. Given that and given the hurt she has suffered from me and the hurt she has suffered in the past I would not wish anymore hurt on someone I love so greatly and promised to always protect.

She is the mother of my children and she deserves to be happy even if that means accepting that is not with me. I will say that I will always be disappointed she chose to end our marriage and pursue an affair rather than attempt to work with me to build a stronger and better marriage.

With this in mind I need to move forward with my life without her as I do not believe that living my life in the hope her relationship fails so that I can be the second choice is a sensible or healthy prospect. It to me seems like a recipe for further misery, heartache and in the long term more disappointment.

We will always be part of each other�s lives and if we are meant to be then we will be.

And if you�ve taken the time to read all of this then thank you.

Hey Jim, sorry to hear about you not having a good time at the Christmas party. I know first hand how hard it can be to hold things together on a good day, add a few drinks, the Christmas season and people who don't know asking about your W. It's really no wonder you broke down.

Like many have mentioned it does get better, the highs aren't so high and the lows aren't so low, thing do eventually balance out again.

Not sure if you've decided to file or not yet but has your W indicated to you that she is going to file or was this all mind reading? Sorry if I missed it but does having a fault divorce really add that much to your case? If not why do you want to do the work for your W especially if it's not something you want?

At the end of the day you need to do what is best for you and your kids. Just make sure with what ever you decide it is best for you and you aren't just looking for a way to try and punish your W or out her for her bad deeds.

Thanks Hoju

not decided yet. I'm speaking to my solicitor after she has done the bits she needs to do. I dont even have to decide then.

Doesnt add that much to my case but offers me a little protection if she decides to get awkward later, plus it wraps up the divorce itself which means i'm more financially protected. there is no escaping there is a big ego side of this, and i'm not going to pretend that it wont force her and OM1 either together or apart and that plays into my thinking as well.

If there were no kids and i had no wish to reconcile i would have no hesitation in filing. but because there are I need to balance out the consequences of that decision and unfortunately to do so i have to mind-read in order to anticipate her reaction, interpretation and response

for example she may see me not filing as weak, where as she may see me filing as being manipulative and controlling. I cant know

To be honest its a bit like that bit from the dark knight with the two ferries and the bombs. If noone presses its fine but i have to trust that she wont press and shes proven to be pretty darn dishonest.

I've got time so i'm not rushing to decide.

Originally Posted By: jim0987

anyways so i'm sat writing up a bit more of my personal development psychoanalysis stuff (unsure whether to post it) and watching TED talks in the background.

I'm posting now because I just watched a TED talk which for those who have followed my thread seemed remarkably appropriate and thought id share it

Getting Stuck in the Negatives - Amy Ledgerwood

Please do, post, your views are so insightful and help me develop my own thoughts. So from a very self centred point of view I would enjoy reading a different angle and perspective. Otherwise I tend to stay in my comfort zone.

Vanilla

So I'm finally getting to the point where I want my wife to move out.

She just got home from her mums with the kids. Didn't say a word but was texting (of course). She was looking amazing and wearing heels (wouldn't for me because they are 'too uncomfortable')

Eventually said something about leaving me to my wrapping we then had a brief but pleasant exchange.

Just before she disappeared into her room i raised an issue with Christmas, this exchange went like this (ish)

M: can I talk to you about the Christmas schedule.
W: what about it
M: I'd like to change it so I can get an extra day with the kids
W: Well we agreed something in writing
M: I said on the draft that I wasn't happy with the disproportionate split of time.
W: its not disproportionate.
M: you've got a lot more time and I'd like to have an extra day. W: well ive only got extra time because you asked me to have them new year.
M: I can change plans to have them at new years if that's what you'd like
W: I've made plans now
M: id like to have them On the 29th
W: then I wouldn't see them from the 26th to the 30th
M: you'll have them to 1400 on the 26th
W: I'll think about it and let you know tomorrow
M: thank you
W: I'll let you know

She left in a bad mood and I think it just adds to her I'm horrible and can't be trusted script.

Should I do this stuff by email so that the personal interaction stays pleasant?

Anyway as much as I still love her, being in the same house while she continues her relationship with OM1 and I'm tortured by the lack of the relationship I want.

I think she needs to move for my sanity despite all the financial hardship and separation from my kids it will bring.

Jim

Get off that ledge. Xmas is an emotional time, so calmly work it through then make your decisions. Cooly and with detachment.

I am reflecting on your long post and believe that your analytic state makes you vulnerable to your own emotions at the moment. The ADD (etc syndromes) lead to introspection and looping and I am concerned for you.

Regards
Vanilla

Jim

I feel for you bud, mainly because I am i the EXACT same situation with my wife. I am dejected, and feel much like you do. The divorce is inevitable at this point as I am the enemy and the AP is the road to happiness. It just [censored] right?

Xmas is hard, went to a Christmas party last night and got even more depressed after the party. Oh boy.

I think it's both safe to disengage from our angry wives for a while, there is nothing to be gained but pain and I pray the distance will bring objectivity and peace.

Hang tough, I am with you.

Can't comment on the add itself mate but I can easily obsess, goes with the analytical nature of my noggin but its only in the last 3 weeks w and I have started to get anywhere with s seeing me more often and you know the basket case it was before then.

In my case it was slightly different as w blames a lot of our issues on my relationship with s (which itself is related to relationship with w but that's never acknowledged by w at the moment)

Only advice I can offer is to discuss and validate and, in your case, be careful not to overanalyze and obsess, I know that one is tricky as I can be like a dog with a bone but I needed to work beyond it, still working on that one...

As far as w moving out, your sitch is obviously different but you know what a difference its made to my day to day PMA at least so far since I moved..

It does feel like the divorce is inevitable. seeing her avoid me and make such an effort so she can enjoy her relationship with OM just hurts.

My biggest issue in our R was my perception of her lack of effort - Im pretty sure that I made her feel judged for this. I just wanted her to make me feel wanted. (My issue I know)

Anyway when its not in my face I feel better, what I don't know is what's better for my long term goal of Reconciliation.

Your last point there is the most important imho, when its just you you can focus on where you are going or detatch, one seems to feed the other from what I've experienced so far anyway.

As to your comment on w I can say in my marriage I felt unwanted and "on standby" for a long time only being brought off the shelf when s wasn't around, a lot of that was my codependancy speaking and I know that now, not saying its the same in your case though.

Its difficult to know how much was my codependency/nice guy stuff and how much was my wife actually being really withdrawn.

Either way I didn't 'feel' like she wanted me. I put it down to the pressures of kids and other stuff but I realise now its that we had lost that connection that a relationship needs to survive. Both of us I think put the emphasis on the other one to fix it (I know I did).

The fact that now she definitely doesn't want me and wants someone else is just the culmination of pain I've been feeling for years.

Hi Jim. Nothing I can say to help but keep strong mate. Rd

Hey Jim, I'm still reading through your long introspective post, it's really good and speaks to me, I see a lot of similarities in our thought processes.

I understand how hard sharing the same space with a WAW can be. Just keep up the PMA and try to stay out of her way.

So i'm going to give myself a 2x4 and feel free to add some extra weight behind it.

My wife came into my room this morning as she always does and my PMA was off (bad nights sleep)I tried to avoid her but she was just sat on my bed.

I cant remember exactly how it got started (soemthing to do with christmas) but we had a sporadic Relationship conversation as we both got up this morning and i was not in a positive place for it.

Things i said during the course of this conversation which i doubt helped me included

- I'm upset by not seeing my kids at christmas
- Its different for me this year because by next year we would have had a full year to come to terms with it and for you this is what you want
- I'm not saying it its not my fault, i am saying that its entirely your choice
- No matter how it gets dressed up or what reasons get given i've always known that i left my Ex for you
- I'm not blaming you for the issues in our marriage, I am saying that this is your choice

we then had a bit of a discussion about the seperation agreement and that she will be moving out on the 13th January. which triggered another exchange

M: well thats as long as the seperation agreement is signed
W: Well I need to take a lot of stuff out
M: I need all the financial stuff in their
W: well i will let you have my comments
M: I'm not handing over any money until i protect myself financially
W: I understand that, its stuff to do with the kids I want to take out. It shouldn't be in a legal agreement that we have to go to court to change. We should do all this stuff on trust
M: Its more difficult to trust when you are being so persistantly dishonest
W: well you never did trust me did you
M: I always trusted you, I still don't understand what it is i did that made you think i didnt trust you
M: I know that i wasnt very good and explaining how i was feeling or bringing up issues with you but i always trusted that we would work through any issues together
W: I dont want to talk about it
M: I trusted you completely, if i didnt i wouldnt have been so blindsided by all of this

there was some more back and forth where she pushed me on what i thought she was being dishonest about and I said:

M: look you've been seeing him for 3 months now, just let me know before you introduced him to our kids
W: I dont what you think you know or are trying to imply with your veiled comments
M: there is nothing veiled about my comment
W: I dont have to explain my self to you. I can see my friends and make new friends if i want
M: of course and i never stopped you from doing any of that
W: I'm not seeing anyone
M: well i guess im just going to have to trust you on that

She is absolutely lying and in a full on relationship with OM1, we both know it

I finished up by saying about 10 minutes later
'I know i've been off the last few times we've seen each other but the prospect of christmas without the kids really hurts me.'

So massive 2x4 to myself - STFU Jim

I have know idea what on earth i thought any of that would acheive. Its not like i want her to start openly discussing her new relationship with me because that will hurt like hell.

That was me feeling hurt and lashing out with blame and judgement. definitely not going to help my cause.

I've only got a few minutes interaction with her this side of January so maybe things will get better in my mental state. But as long as OM1 is in the picture and making her happy then I have no chance

The best metaphor i have is that our relationship is in a coma on life support and I'm visiting everyday hoping it will wake up and can begin the long rehabilitation journey. My wife wont visit at all but i dont know whether its because she doesnt care or cant face it. either way the decision on whether to pull the plug is mine.

Hi Jim, don't beat yourself up, its done now and it can't be changed. In my opinion you are doing well and if you could you the STFU a bit more often then you would be doing a but better.

This is incredibly hard but you have no choice Think positive and continue to do you best.

take care RD

Hi Jim.

Number one - you already know - but number two is as important.

Regardless of how it went don't dwell on it, no it wasn't an outcome you wanted, it may or may not have changed w's viewpoint or pushed her or maybe set her thinking, you have no idea, you can't mindread and you can't change her internal script or plan right now, whatever you can't undo the conversation regardless.

If you have little interaction between now and January then see that as a good opportunity for you to relax, be calm and detatch but only if *you*let yourself.

Dont run it endlessly in your mind on a loop or the next time you will already be wound up and ready to launch before either of you speaks.

As much as it puts me in danger of sounding like I'm obsessed with Frozen (hey, only seen it a dozen or so times - that makes me a lightweight with a child of 10), in regard to this conversation just let it go, I don't say that to belittle it you know that but I also know the knots I've tied myself in with w working out every plan she could be hatching and who and was she running around and.... and I nearly had a breakdown and definitely didnt relax or detatch.

I know in your case its worse on top of the feelings on not seeing the kids for Christmas you have the other feelings you're fighting, in some respects I'm lucky, sure I wont see s on Christmas eve or day but I'll get him boxing day and the 27th. I'd much prefer to be all together as a family but this year it aint going to happen, next year? Is next year.

Please, please don't do what I was doing, don't tell yourself its impossible to have a good time and not to try, it's all just toxic and you are so good at GAL - much better than I - so I know you can do it.

We all of us here want to be with our WAS and families I'm sad that wont be the case this year for many of us here and in my case it will be my Dad instead but you better believe I'll try to enjoy it and wear my paper hat with the rest of them.

I know how you are feeling about your marriage and only the two of you are in a position to end it, I understand why you're thinking of that being you to regain some aspect of control but while you should protect yourself and your kids financially it doesnt mean you should hasten anything along.

I'm no expert in anything infidelity wise mate, one thing (at the moment) I know isnt happening either side in my R, w is too obsessed with s's time but I know some of the vets will be along with advice on that. My concern here is your PMA and optimism for your life in the future and with the kids going ahead and you know how much I had to battle my own demons to get my head the little above the water it is with my attitude.

Anyway enough of my waffling, today make sure you forgive Jim, dont punish him, move on with YOUR christmas plans for both what you intend to do with yourself on christmas eve, day and around then and what you'll do with the kids for YOUR christmas together.

Remember your db buddies are here mate, we may shout at you and 2x4 you but we're here.

Edz

rd you beat me to it

Jim

Actually my view is slightly different. Well Vanilla what's new about that?

This is the first time in reading your sitch that I have heard a post from you so strong.

Sure could have been less wordy and indeed slightly stronger without back tracking.

You made your point, you said what needed to be said. (And a little more, but hey this is a step forward)

So no 2x4 from Vanilla.

Chuffed
Vanilla

Thanks. The support is really appreciated

In retrospect my wife several times was took the opportunity to remind me that its over between us and that its because of me. So there was a little bit of baiting and self justification going on there (I certainly helped reinforce her narrative)

Anyway, I'm going to take one big positive from this mornings debacle and that is that within half an hour I not only knew I had screwed up but that I was projecting blame and judgement toward my W. I was hurting and I wanted her to know it - this is symptomatic of a lot of my mistakes

Now the good news in case you missed it is that i noticed. In the past i would have just basically stayed in a grump about how she wasnt paying attention to me or doing enough to make me feel better as I congratualated myself for remaining so 'in control of my emotions'. So noticing and understanding thats a really good thing, its on the way to fixing

So to rewrite this mornings conversation as it should have gone.

M: I'm disappointed I'm not going to see the kids Christmas Day but its ok because we will have a great day when I do see them.

Originally Posted By: Vanilla

Jim

Actually my view is slightly different. Well Vanilla what's new about that?

This is the first time in reading your sitch that I have heard a post from you so strong.

Sure could have been less wordy and indeed slightly stronger without back tracking.

You made your point, you said what needed to be said. (And a little more, but hey this is a step forward)

So no 2x4 from Vanilla.

Chuffed
Vanilla

Really didnt expect that.......

I suppose you could argue what i said wasnt too bad - its more the way I said it

need to get my Rhet Butler on.

Originally Posted By: jim0987

So to rewrite this mornings conversation as it should have gone.

M: I'm disappointed I'm not going to see the kids Christmas Day but its ok because we will have a great day when I do see them.

Great stuff, make sure you live by that one, dont re-run and what if, just seize that line and run with it mate

Well something was triggered this morning (Nothing good)

I've had a bunch of emails from W about different things all very formal.

- about a week ago I asked if she could collect the kids one day in january as i'm in Brussels. She said

Yes, that should be fine. We need to work together to co-parent effectively and whilst I had hoped to have this week off to sort the new house, I will of course collect the children, Its no problem at all.

- She sent the revised seperation agreement, she said no substantial changes but has added quite a few extra bits of furniture she wants and took out all the bits that actually protect me, and said i should take the joint account (I have no idea of the balance in that as ive never had any control of it so thats a bad plan).

She added

As I've said before, I have no desire to be unreasonable, take anything more than is reasonable, or to make this harder than it already is or has to be. I hope that this is OK. Please give me any feeback as soon as possible

I'd suggest a separate agreement in relation to the children. This is a one-off agreement, where as the children reflect an ongoing and dynamic relationship that must suit their needs.

There were two other emails both really formal and similar in tone.(I find this hurtful)

what stikes me is that she is really protesting her reasonableness. My initial reaction was that it feels like she has all the power (which she does) but certainly looking at it again it feels more like she is trying to reassert herself as being the 'adult' (for the transactional analysts amongst you)

[b]So my question is do I respond in the same overly formal tone? or do I respond in my normal light agreeable tone?

Do i point out that actually I've been incredibly cooperative and reasonable regardless? equally do i point out that she is being unreasonable?

What I want to say is something along the lines of

Wife,

I'm disappointed you feel you have to adopt such an overly formal tone. Throughout this process I have been cooperative and reasonable despite your affair and your continuing behaviour toward me.

Since I have known you I have always wished you to be happy and have tried to support you in your decisions. Whilst i cannot agree with your decision and will continue to believe that our marriage was perfectly fixable, I recognise that this decisions is yours to make. I have not and will not seek to obstruct or hinder it in anyway.

I know that this is a difficult and stressful time for us all but please be assured that I will always act in the best interests of D3 and S1.

I would really like to send this but i seriously doubt its a good idea.

I see nothing good in that email and I don't see a problem with her tone. Reply just to get things done, not to fix the R.

I think you show strike to whole first bit.

I cannot do fancy editing but some one might. The last 2-3 sentences might work if tweaked slightly.

Bussiness only, no r talk.

I agree with Mozza nothing good in there. I would just reply informally how you normally would before BD (leave out the honey or love bits of course), lowering your guard should bring hers down naturally. Lose all the R talk in that email and just focus on answering what needs to be answered.

Originally Posted By: jim0987

Wife,

I'm disappointed you feel you have to adopt such an overly formal tone. Throughout this process I have been cooperative and reasonable despite your affair and your continuing behaviour toward me.

Since I have known you I have always wished you to be happy and have tried to support you in your decisions. Whilst i cannot agree with your decision and will continue to believe that our marriage was perfectly fixable, I recognise that this decisions is yours to make. I have not and will not seek to obstruct or hinder it in anyway.

I know that this is a difficult and stressful time for us all but please be assured that I will always act in the best interests of D3 and S1.

First paragraph:

You're wagging your finger at W for being "formal" and calling out on her so-called bad behavior. Are those loving and neutral actions that will draw back W? I think not.

Second paragraph:

You're trying to pled with W that M is 'fixable' which isn't attractive. Furthermore, W is already checked out of the M. Why bring up the "blocking" and "obstruct" words which is, in W's eyes, a tacit admission that you have been/are doing this.

Third paragraph:

Whoa! The implication dangling in the air is that W doesn't have the kids' best interests at all. That'll be the fastest way to make her get pissed off at you. Just more negative view of you.

In summary, this email needs to be binned as you Brits tend to say. It is as useful as a three-dollar bill.

DO NOT send out the email. I'd start a completely new one that is 2 paragraphs long. That's it. KISS and STFU.

Jim,

Mirror back to W on those topics. Put on your Mr. Spock hat and then reply in that cool Vulcan voice.

Keep working here. I look forward to your new draft.

I agree with Wonka's light editing.

I'm amazed at how difficult it is for you to get in the DB mindset, even though your W is practically the poster girl for it. You keep pursuing and repeating that you want to save the M for instance. Any chance she doesn't know this yet? It's now annoying the heck out of her and pushing her away. You keep wallowing about how much you suck rather than feeding your PMA. You keep saying you have no chances as if you knew while DB encourages patience. You want to expose the A. I could go on and on.

If you want to succeed, it's not going to be about small adjustments here and there, it will be about changing your entire attitude to your sitch. I'm not even sure you can imagine what it looks and feels like.

You should take a page out of HPoirot's playbook. He took the reins and changed the dynamic. He just had his head shaved and beard trimmed. What about doing that too? Something similar to feel a new man? An anchor for your changes?

Probably not.

Not much to add to the above, I did almost the same thing in the early weeks (August I think) and it blew up spectacularly with a very angry set of responses from w and then silence (and not seeing s as well) so I would avoid from experience!

Thanks all, I'm just too emotionally driven and i never in a million years thought i was like that.

My wife has certainly been the poster girl for being checked out - not a hint of remorse, regret or doubt even after OM1 initially said he only wanted casual. Now he is back and wants a relationship she is being more active in pushing the D ahead (still feel that I should confront him though i'm accepting the advice not to)

anyway just want to comment on these

Originally Posted By: Wonka

First paragraph:

You're wagging your finger at W for being "formal" and calling out on her so-called bad behavior. Are those loving and neutral actions that will draw back W? I think not.

Fair point - I'm upset at the insuation that I havent been reasonable. I know her well enough that she is trying to make a point but i would be guessing exactly what that point is. I do the similar when i ask leading questions of her

This continues her Parent/Child approach which i have allowed too often and so your right reacting to it is either perpetuating this or picking an arguement.

Originally Posted By: Wonka

Second paragraph:

You're trying to pled with W that M is 'fixable' which isn't attractive. Furthermore, W is already checked out of the M. Why bring up the "blocking" and "obstruct" words which is, in W's eyes, a tacit admission that you have been/are doing this.

I hadnt thought about it like that, i guess i was more thinking that i want her to know that its her decision. whatever my faults and failings, walking without properly trying is her choice. but even if we go with my interpretation this is blaming and judgement and needs to be avoided - she needs to realise this on her own and so best not said.

n retrospect i was trying to make her feel its a bad decision - so more manipulation

I've not obstructed at all but she seems to consistently imply that I am, or feel threatened that i might.

Originally Posted By: Wonka

Third paragraph:

Whoa! The implication dangling in the air is that W doesn't have the kids' best interests at all. That'll be the fastest way to make her get pissed off at you. Just more negative view of you.

I was trying to reassure that i'm not going to do anything that would be harmful to the kids. well at least thats what i thought i was doing.

when i read Wonka's interpretation my immediate reaction was, thats because she doesnt, otherwise she wouldnt have left without trying, she would actively have helped with D3s school place and she wouldnt leave the kids with her family on her weekends so she can go meet OM1. Thats a lot of anger and judgement there, as justified as i might feel it is - it isnt healthy or going to help her see good in me or our M

Wonka, d@mn your mirror can sting sometimes...

Originally Posted By: jim0987

Wonka, d@mn your mirror can sting sometimes...

To do so otherwise would be doing a great disservice to you and your M. And dishonest too.

Ok revised draft

I hope you dont mind but i've included all the specifics that i'm having to go back to her on in case i've got more negative judgement in there

Hi,

Thanks for your comments. attached is the updated draft agreement.

Hopefully you'll find the language a little better.

Theres a few bits i just want to explain
- Of the money i'm giving you �X000 is for D3 and S1 and i think its important the document reflect this
- I'm not comfortable assuming responsibility for the joint account, though i'm happy to transfer all the debits accross to my new account as soon as you are happy for me to do so.
- I'm perfectly happy for you to do a more phased move if that makes things easier for you, equally if you want to take a few days so you can decorate a bit before you move in the thats fine with me. I just want to make sure we arent still discussing who has what 6 months down the line
- I think we need to leave the contingency element - If I die before I've sorted my will I want to make sure everything goes to D3 & S1, but to make sure you have control as I know you will look after them. It prevents any family interference.
- I think there is still quite a bit to agree with regard to furniture and contents and i'm hestitant to salami slice this discussion

Hope thats ok but get back to me if you have any concerns

I'll tidy up the childcare one and get that accross to you.

Jim

Originally Posted By: jim0987

Hi,

Thanks for your comments. attached is the updated draft agreement.

Hopefully you'll find the language a little better.

Theres a few bits i just want to explain
- Of the money i'm giving you �X000 is for D3 and S1 and i think its important the document reflect this. [[color:#000000]b]Money for what? What's the purpose of this?[/b]
- I'm not comfortable assuming responsibility for the joint account, though i'm happy to transfer all the debits accross to my new account as soon as you are happy for me to do so.
- I'm perfectly happy for you to do a more phased move if that makes things easier for you, equally if you want to take a few days so you can decorate a bit before you move in the thats fine with me. I just want to make sure we arent still discussing who has what 6 months down the line What do you mean here??
- I think we need to leave the contingency element - If I die before I've sorted my will I want to make sure everything goes to D3 & S1, but to make sure you have control as I know you will look after them. It prevents any family interference.
- I think there is still quite a bit to agree with regard to furniture and contents and i'm hestitant to salami slice this discussion

Hope thats ok agreeable to you but get back to me if you have any concerns

I'll tidy up the childcare one and get that accross to you.

Jim[/color]

Thanks Wonka

The language comment is because she asked me to rewrite the document in 'plain english'

The money is my purchasing of the equity in the house. we borrowed a bit of money from our kids savings to top up the deposit and my wife is insistent that goes with her. I'm ok with that but she edited the document so there is no distinction. I think its important to recognise that a proportion of the money i'm giving her isnt hers its the kids (and also to make sure she doesnt try and say later that their money is still in my house)

We had originally discussed that when she moves out anything left in the house that day was then mine. just trying to avoid the 'thats my toaster/pillow case/ornamental glass giraffe' for the next 6 months whilst still being flexible

Jim,

Thanks for clearing some items up.

Is there any way that you can set up a trust fund for the kids so the money can grow so when they'd reach, say, age of 25 they can access those funds for whatever reason? It'll be a smart way to invest these funds.

As for the furniture, it is just "stuff" that can be easily replaced. When Ms. Wonka and I walked around the house discussing the split of furnishings, I said "okay" to all of her requests because I knew they're not worth fighting over and could be replaced. A part of me seethed a bit as she was 'destroying' my dreams. Ah....I survived it!

Perspective, ok?

To be honest i'm not really attached to the stuff or even that i want a lot of it. When I broke up with my ex I gave her everything and just walked knowing it was my fault and so i shouldnt take any of the stuff - i still occassionaly go 'I'm sure i have a whatever' before realising it was something that i left behind.

Its more that i'm trying to keep my cost of replacement down a bit and to deal with it once and remove the source of potential conflict. So having said that i think its better to just drop that bit of the reply so it reads

I'm perfectly happy for you to do a more phased move if that makes things easier for you, equally if you want to take a few days so you can decorate a bit before you move in the thats fine with me.

on the kids fund I know that if I suggest anything she will take that as me trying to control or tell her that she cant be trusted with the kids money (she has a big thing about me not trusting her). I dont mind if it goes to her deposit i just want it to be clear that she has the kids money - I guess i dont trust her anymore.

Jim,

The money is not some change of spare shillings in your pocket. It is a good amount of bank notes that I think you should have a say on when it comes to family finances. Control be damned. If you're not completely sure yet, you can say that you need to think on this some more and get back to W on this later.

I should have been clearer - If she has the money then I trust her to look after it for the kids, it was inheritence from her gran which is why she has it (and she has always looked after their savings and investments)

What i dont trust is that if the document isnt clear, that she wont try and say later on that I still owe the kids that money because it was part of the equity in the house.

Hi,

Thanks for your comments. attached is the updated draft agreement.

for the sake of clarity:
- included in the settlement is �X000 is for D3 and S1 and this is to be returned to their savings.
- i'm happy to transfer all the debits from the joint across to my new account as soon as I can. We can leave the joint account with minimum balance.
- If you want to do a more phased move then I am comfortable, I want to make sure we complete any transactions completely within two months.
- I think we need to leave the contingency element.
- there is still quite a bit to agree with regard to furniture and contents but I am going to let you decide on the items you require

Please get back to me if you have any concerns

I'll tidy up the childcare agreement and get that accross to you.

Jim

Vanillas version. Don't discuss wills etc as that may tie you down. Plus it is not her concern, it is yours and L in any drafting.
V

Vanilla nailed the writing style. To the point. Leave out the "I hope it's ok...", "I'd be more than happy...", "Let me know if it's not..." It goes without saying and it looks, well, pathetic. "I'm really trying to please you and I really hope you're not upset by anything I said otherwise I take it back immediately and change it to whatever you want!"

Thanks all for the input on this.

I certainly dont think she will think i'm trying to please her.

I think that reads great now. Strong, specific, confident, businesslike...good job!

Toots x