Mozza 1 - 2009 near-separation, search for explanations.
Mozza 2 - OM confirmed through kids on Halloween, refocus on me rather than blaming W.
Mozza 3 - OM confirmed by W in email, strollergate, W has problems at work, unexpected blind date.
Mozza 4 - Lunch with W went well, reflections on being dumped, kids and OM
Mozza 5 - W warms up but OM set to move in in January, W's birthday email
My storyAfter 9.5 years together, my W announced in early September that she wanted a separation. A week of pleading and begging didn't change a thing. She said I was criticizing her too much, that she was unhappy and no longer in love with me and she didn't want to live with half-emotions. A week later, she had moved out. A month and a half later, she revealed that she was going out with a coworker, met at the new job she started a month before BD (after a year of job-seeking). He's a good listener, 10 years younger than me, better-looking and athletic. He'd been courting her from week 1 and was omnipresent throughout her move. It didn't come as a surprise when she told me they were together. He left his gf to be with my W. He's moving in with her in January. My kids know and like him.
DBingI accept responsibility for what I did in the M, though I go back between full responsibility and the impression that OM shouldn't have courted a married W with 2 kids and that she should have told me and resisted. In any case, the only useful path is to reflect on my changes. I need to be less critical and less dismissive of my W's emotions. She had voiced her pain several times before the BD and none of her reasons to leave me (she didn't mention OM) were new to me. I had ignored her and she was hopeless that thing could improve. There was more fighting than average in the months leading to BD. She said we were incompatible.
I'm good at being silent and distant, so much that she once called me to ask why I was so hard to reach. The "no pursuing" rule is easy to apply for me because it means doing nothing. What I'm not so good at is acting normal and upbeat around her and what I'm awful is detaching. I've recently been told that I act as a "wet noodle" with her because I'm too kind to her gestures, like banter emails and hugs. I'll try to work on this. My kids (D6, D3) take to the separation as if nothing happened.
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Success storiesFeel free to make suggestions, especially with links to threads. I wish we had room in our profile to tell our story so that the vets and other successes could give us a quick summary.
RECONCILIATION
Thornton (M) -
May to July 2014 Train (W) -
Reconciled in 2014 Labug (W) -
March 2011 to December 2013 HopefulStill - reconciled in 2012
minkerman (M) -
Reconciled after 4 months in 2008 25yearsmlc (W) -
2005 to August 2008FaithfulH -
Reconciled in 2007 sandi2 (W) - ?
Coach (M) -
2008MrBond (M) - Used to have another screen name
Starsky309 (M) - (
ChocolateEyes,
Puppy Dog Tails) -
Aug 2007 to 2009. Exposed his W's A.
Butterflymom127 and FavoriteWeirdo -
Thread PIECING AS OF 2014
Crimson T0324 Heart14 Nitty - BD in December 2013, piecing as of September 2014
LETTING GO
pearlharbr (W) -
November 2008 to June 2010 (19 months) Snow White (W) -
2008-2009. Let go when her H wanted back in.
The topic of the last few posts in Mozza 5 was: Can you nice your W back into the M? I'm engaging W every time she emails me, sometimes just for banter. It's something she liked with me and I was hoping to remind her that it's still all there. But in parallel, she's moving forward full speed with OM, even having him move into her apartment in January.
Wonka responded by endorsing what Sandi2 said to HPoirot.
Well, I may get switches in my Christmas stockings for saying this, but I would just have to say, "Sorry, too little too late". Then walk away. That is a truth dart that really needs to penetrate.
You see, this is just a taste she will need to experience. She has to see for herself that you are through with her. You have decided you won't take whatever crumbs she decides to leave for you. She needs to see what it must have been like for you. (Only she can't really feel the same as you did.) That is why it is important that you don't cave while she's applying this pressure.
That ^^ is the crux of the whole matter: not accepting crumbs from WAW. I hope every LBH reads this and lets that sink in in their wet noodle minds. HP, no it will signal the death knell of the M. Instead, it will signal the death knell of the Wet Noodle HP and show your W that you mean business when it comes to your boundaries.
This ^^ answers your earlier questions on what you are doing wrong. Exactly.
Can you do this with your W? Pull back and stop acting like a slobbering puppy around her.
I need to let that sink in. I'm back in my W's good graces and I still feel like she needs to see me as the person she fell in love with, which seems to be only possible if I'm a positive presence in her life. But I get that DB is counter-intuitive and that I might gain some respect from my W or that she might start to miss me if I disengage. Perhaps what I need is a Solutions Journal, as recommended by MWD, to track how she reacts to what. At the same time, I remember the words of Starsky309 (I believe): what works is what brings the WAS in the M, not what makes the WAS nice to the LBS.
Mozza, so I've been following your thread for awhile, and lately this particular conversation is extremely interesting…I've mentioned before that I'm in a similar position with my W as far as "nice-ing her way back into the M…" Just like you, I am in regular contact with my W and enjoy just..banter with her to "remind her of what it was like." But at the same time, I know that I get the crumbs from her 6 out of 7 days and of course it bothers me everyday
what works is what brings the WAS in the M, not what makes the WAS nice to the LBS.
My thoughts on this are…do these not go hand in hand? If our WAW's continue to be a b*tch and are rude and not talking to us, does this not lead them further away from the M? Isn't it only possible to save the M once we are able to actually communicate nicely?
My W's R to OM, to my knowledge, does not seem as serious as yours but nevertheless theres still OM-she doesn't admit it. My DB coach actually recommended to me that I try and increase contact with my W by reaching out to her more often instead of letting her initiate all the time. This seems counter-intuitive to what I've been reading on all these threads here…I feel like by reaching out to her, it shows her I'm still interested (not pursuing, but friendly talk), but it also just gives her the opportunity to shut me down more when she doesn't want to talk? For example, today we were texting back and forth and then suddenly she just stops…and now, the balls back in her court and she's free to do whatever she wants and respond when she wants- its still a 1-way street, not sure if you are in this boat. Sometimes I wonder if we are just enabling our WAW's by talking to them this much because now they get us and OM…Then again, how do we show we are the "better option" by not talking to them…
What boundaries can we set to make us look and be strong and not a "wet noodle" but still maintain contact and be in wives good graces..
thoughts?
For the record, I'm in a rare place tonight: I guess you can call it half detached. I'm somewhat upset at W. The phrase that keeps spinning in my head is "She f-ed up". I see how she'll come to regret this, see that things were worth working out between us, that she's lost a good H. I don't feel, like I do most days, that I would take her back in a heartbeat. I feel like I can find a better partner out there, someone who's commitment means as much as mine. I don't feel the usual longing for her. There's a bar that she will have to clear if she wants back in. I usually reason that, but today I feel it.
I'm on a business trip. Everything is different around me and I'm very busy. I'm distracted by work all day. This helps a lot. I had dinner with a good friend. I told him a bit about my sitch. His advice was impressive, like he had read DB, but it was all instinct. Focus on yourself, don't think of them, you're a good person, boost your confidence, etc. Usually, I hint that I'd like W to come back, but I didn't with him and he jumped straight at it, like it's obvious she'll want back in. He wasn't saying that to please me, especially as I was more in a "she f-ed up" mood.
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TLEE86 - I'm grateful you're following my thread. I wish I had relevant thoughts on this dilemma. I'm still processing what sandi2 and Wonka told us, because it seems to go against what I know about my W. But she's someone different now. I try to tap into that special mood I have tonight and I can tell that someone who's moving on, who's mysterious is more attractive. And attraction is what brings people together. Well, I really don't have an answer, but I'll keep thinking and writing about it.
Mozza,
Yep, I'm at the same point too. I don't know about you, but its almost comforting to be in that state of mind. W has the kids over the weekends, so I can tell you those times have always been horrible. Well, this weekend; I was actually looking forward to doing some things around the house. I went Xmas shopping for the kids, which we always liked to do together. Tonight, went out to get a tree with the kids. All I can think is what she's missing out on.
Its good to realize that we are all going to be okay no matter the outcome, just don't forget your goals. Especially be careful if you feel this way AND are on a business trip. Temptation can rear its ugly head in those cases.
I dreamed I was condemned to be executed. A nice nurse was going to administer the shot in a bland hospital room, like any vaccine, and my W and close friends were with me for support. When I realized I was really going to die, I started to wonder what part of my life I could sacrifice instead of the whole thing. I thought of my job. I panicked when I realized that all of me was going to die. The dream ended before I died. I very rarely remember my dreams.
My W is pushing my buttons. She wrote me an email at 3 am about the education of the kids. We had an agreement when together (public school) and now she's concerned about the quality of language of our kids, mentioning that we might want to send them to (expensive) private school after all. D6 is seen as a genius by her 1st grade teacher, ahead on most things. She's thriving and she has the language level appropriate for her age. The thing unsaid is that education is better in her country. Her parents have always been skeptical (to say the least) of my country and pushing for proper education in theirs. My W suffered from this pressure from her parents. Sigh. I don't want to deal with this for at least a couple of years. It's so hard outside of a normal R.
Not to hijack your thread but I'm wondering if there are any success stories in situations where the WAS has moved in with OP and then later decided the grass wasn't so green after all and went back to LBS.
I'm feeling like I need a couple pick me ups of "it's possible"!
My first wife who I was with 10 years left me for OM then wanted to get back together about 1 year later but I had moved on by that time
Mozza,
Knowing that your W is involved with OM, you need to remove yourself as the back-up plan or as a place set that meets her need for "family."
Just focus on business and the kids. Being nice doesn't mean you slobber over W like a puppy. One can be polite and cordial without being rude or jerk.
I would cut down on interactions with W that are being used to temp check or find ways to get close in physical proximity. That needs to stop so W can sense and see that you are not going to be her sloppy seconds.
Make sense?
Little: There's one such success story in the making here! You should hear my parents: ab-so-lu-te-ly convinced that W will wake up and come back. I've to say, they make convincing points and it's a great boost to hear them. Other than that, have you explored the stories above in details? Many of them were very long and I'd assumed that many WAS lived with their OPs at some point Also, didn't you live with your BF? See: it can be undone, no matter the level of commitment.
paul 47 Thanks for sharing. Did your W live with her OM during that year? I like that either way, you got your happiness. If you wanted her back, you could. But you chose a different path. Would you mind telling us a bit about what brought her back? Many of us would be interested.
I would cut down on interactions with W that are being used to temp check or find ways to get close in physical proximity. That needs to stop so W can sense and see that you are not going to be her sloppy seconds.
Fine, I'll test this approach for a while. In fact, I've been in that mode for a few days already. Just the facts, no warmth or banter. She just sent me stuff with smileys about D3's Christmas show and I would usually have replied something funny, something to connect, but I won't. I'll monitor the impact and will report here. What would be a sign of success?
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PS: I apparently dodged the bullet on private schools. I waited 12 hours to respond to her email, quickly validated her concerns about quality of education and moved to the next question. She responded without a mention of private school.
@Little yes she moved in with OM for that year and as we had no children there was no real need for contact, but I did the usual begging and pleading by text but she just ignored every message I sent her, after a couple of weeks of no response I just stopped sending her any text and I had no contact with her for the next 6 month, then out of the blue and on the day of my birthday she turned up at my work place with a gift and card, she was crying and told me how sorry she was for what she had done we hugged and we both were crying and then she left, well for the next 6 months we exchanged text maybe once a week just the usual hi how you doing stuff, but that all changed when I started dating W number 2, the one I'm Dbing now, that seemed to send W number 1 in to panic mode as she could see she was going to lose me for ever, so then the frantic phone calls started declaring her love for me and how we should make a go of our M and it was a huge mistake, at this time I was actually in love with w1 and W2 at the same time but I chose W number 2
A sad thing is W number 1 died only 4 weeks ago from cancer, I went to her funeral, I chatted to her family and they told me she had never stopped loving me and always regretted what she did
Thanks for sharing your story, paul 47. The six months of silence is impressive. It drives home the point that we need to give space and be patient.
There seems to be a typo in your story. In the first paragraph, you say "W2, the one Im DBing now" and in the second paragraph, you write "W2 died 4 weeks ago". My sympathies, by the way.
Mozza,
What have you been drinking???!! Spiked egg nog?
A sad thing is W number 1 died only 4 weeks ago from cancer, I went to her funeral, I chatted to her family and they told me she had never stopped loving me and always regretted what she did
Wow, Paul. Thanks for sharing your story.
Thanks mozza
Yes space and as sandi says a sense of loss.
Wonka, Paul edited. It did originally say W2.
Thanks paul. Would you mind sharing what went through your mind when she came back with the gift after six months? Why was it that you only exchanged weekly texts rather than engage further at that point?
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I had dinner with a friend who gave a huge boost to my PMA. As I was telling her I'm not really attractive, she jumped in to differ strongly, telling me I'm super attractive, intelligent, witty, ambitious, successful, etc. I walked home with a spring in my step and an air of confidence like I'm Ryan Gosling. May you all meet a friend like this very soon. ;-)
@Little yes she moved in with OM for that year and as we had no children there was no real need for contact, but I did the usual begging and pleading by text but she just ignored every message I sent her, after a couple of weeks of no response I just stopped sending her any text and I had no contact with her for the next 6 month, then out of the blue and on the day of my birthday she turned up at my work place with a gift and card, she was crying and told me how sorry she was for what she had done we hugged and we both were crying and then she left, well for the next 6 months we exchanged text maybe once a week just the usual hi how you doing stuff, but that all changed when I started dating W number 2, the one I'm Dbing now, that seemed to send W number 1 in to panic mode as she could see she was going to lose me for ever, so then the frantic phone calls started declaring her love for me and how we should make a go of our M and it was a huge mistake, at this time I was actually in love with w1 and W2 at the same time but I chose W number 2
A sad thing is W number 1 died only 4 weeks ago from cancer, I went to her funeral, I chatted to her family and they told me she had never stopped loving me and always regretted what she did
Paul
Please accept my condolences about your first w's death. That stinks.
So, do you have any regrets on your end about that marriage not getting another chance? (I'm not judging you - I'm just asking ) -
especially since you ended up here anyhow, with w#2.
What role do you feel you may have played in your first and or second m's issues - and do you worry a lot about repeating that again? I mean, did You do any growing or changing? Is this the first time you've come here for help?
I ask this b/c you have had the benefit of some time. However, my former bil is in his second failing m (he left my sister after 3 kids and 22 years and regretted doing that, but she had moved on and remarried, pretty happily)
and yet he's still sort of the same, but really sad.
What "insurance" are you going to try to create that would reduce the chances of you ending up back here with another wife?
No offense meant, just asking about the learning curve, digging deep within, and goals, etc.
To tell you the truth mozza I still loved her but I knew in my heart I could never forget and forgive her for what she had done especially as they were no children to worry about, and I was just starting to enjoy my life again I had a whole new unit of friends and my life was quite exciting at that time, maybe I could have got her back at that 6 month point but I had no wish to do that
When children are involved well that's a different ballgame I will do anything to keep my family together
Not to hijack your thread but I'm wondering if there are any success stories in situations where the WAS has moved in with OP and then later decided the grass wasn't so green after all and went back to LBS.
I'm feeling like I need a couple pick me ups of "it's possible"!
My H!
Thanks
paul 47 and
T0324. It's nice to have examples of sitches that have gone this far and back. Also, all sitches are different and that nothing is impossible just because it hasn't been done before.
Wonka: Do you think my W knows that I don't want the separation based on
this account?
Mozza,
W's heard you once. She knows by your words and actions that you don't want a D. I think in some cases it is good to physically separate because it allows for contrasts between the LBS and their no-so fun fairytale with the OP to come into sharper focus for the WAS.
Have you started back to square one? You are second guessing yourself, pursuing her, looking for the magic formula, etc.
Why?
Mozza -
I havent entirely kept up on your sitch but if you are at all familiar with my sitch my H was pretty terrible. He was definitely abducted by aliens or something (not that I am making excuses for him) but his behavior was so terrible that's really the only way I can think that
Let her go. It took me months to stop pursuing and hanging on to every little action or lack there of from H. I never once mentioned OW to him. Towards the end I stopped caring about hanging on to every little interactions. I FINALLY listened to all the wise advice of everyone here and was the first to leave, didn't sound desperate when we talked and just plain acted like a neighbor when we did see each other which was rare. Our only interactions were at basketball. Then he started coming by the house. This was the same person that couldn't even look me in the eye for MONTHS. But I was friendly but short. We were busy. We didn't have time for him to hang out around the house with us or chat a long time after basketball because the boys and I had plans. He told me when he first came back he always wondered where I was going. He remembered an outfit I had on to a T and he swore I was going on a date (thanks Train).
Anyway point in case. Stop pursuing her. She knows where you are if she wants you. You stand little to no chance if you pursue. I know it's scary but figure your life out without her and if she wants to R then that's the cherry on top. I bet you will feel a sense of freedom when you make plans for your life not focusing on your W. Once I got my finances in order and figured out how to make it without counting on H I felt such a sense of relief
Hang in there. This is a marathon. Use the tools you have
knowing you can make it without them and yes, even be happy, is incredibly empowering.
That translates into feeling more secure and then, somehow it radiates from within. I think that's the case, b/c without me SAYING "I am really fine!", my h just knew.
Heck yeah, that's attractive. Or at least a lot more so than "needing" them is.
Mozza, thanks for the kind words for me
I dreamed I was condemned to be executed. A nice nurse was going to administer the shot in a bland hospital room, like any vaccine, and my W and close friends were with me for support. When I realized I was really going to die, I started to wonder what part of my life I could sacrifice instead of the whole thing. I thought of my job. I panicked when I realized that all of me was going to die. The dream ended before I died. I very rarely remember my dreams.
My W is pushing my buttons. She wrote me an email at 3 am about the education of the kids. We had an agreement when together (public school) and now she's concerned about the quality of language of our kids, mentioning that we might want to send them to (expensive) private school after all. D6 is seen as a genius by her 1st grade teacher, ahead on most things. She's thriving and she has the language level appropriate for her age. The thing unsaid is that education is better in her country. Her parents have always been skeptical (to say the least) of my country and pushing for proper education in theirs. My W suffered from this pressure from her parents. Sigh. I don't want to deal with this for at least a couple of years. It's so hard outside of a normal R.
Mozza, Sorry if this was answered elsewhere, but where the heck do you live? While in the military, there were some bases in places where you knew you'd have to send your kids to private schools if you wanted them to keep up with their grade. Unless your kids were labelled as "gifted."
Most public schools in our country have programs for Gifted & Talented kids, usually referred to as "GATE" (Gifted And Talented Education") and that can provide a real boost to the kids' education. It costs nothing.
Assuming you don't have that option, then Would her family help pay for THEIR favorite schooling, IF you wanted to partake in it? And last but NOT least, how far away would this mean?
Are we talking boarding schools abroad or what?
Wonka, sandi2, 25yearsmlc, T0324 - Wow, thanks for the vet intervention!
Have you started back to square one? You are second guessing yourself, pursuing her, looking for the magic formula, etc.
Why?
Wait, I'm not pursuing much. I kissed W on the cheeks when she leaned in, the first time we saw each other in 2 weeks. Other than that, it was all business. I've even reduced the email contacts to a bare minimum in the last week or two, cutting on the banter. I go back and forth because my W felt I was distant in the couple, so it had been
suggested that I use these exchanges to show her my changes.
W's heard you once. She knows by your words and actions that you don't want a D. I think in some cases it is good to physically separate because it allows for contrasts between the LBS and their no-so fun fairytale with the OP to come into sharper focus for the WAS.
OK, I won't remind her. I don't mind anyway: she's getting more involved with this OM, who's moving in in January. I don't see anything to do than see if it runs its course while I work on myself.
Speaking of, I had a great business trip this week. I saw three friends who boosted my PMA, I felt better and cried less than usual, and I bought a ton of new clothes. I'm back home and today's a bit of a difficult day because it's the 3-month 'anniversary" of BD, but other than that, I'm biding my time. My daily 7-minute workout is doing wonders by the way. Everything feels easier, like gravity is reduced. It feels great.
Wait, I'm not pursuing much. I kissed W on the cheeks when she leaned in, the first time we saw each other in 2 weeks. Other than that, it was all business. I've even reduced the email contacts to a bare minimum in the last week or two, cutting on the banter. I go back and forth because my W felt I was distant in the couple, so it had been suggested that I use these exchanges to show her my changes.
Listen to yourself. "I'm not pursuing MUCH". Which means you are still pursuing SOME. You are still contacting, showing affection, and flirting.......even though she has an affair wide open for everyone to see, especially your children. Is this what you will advise your son one day if he finds himself in your shoes?
Your W felt you were being distant, so what did you do, but give her more of your attention. Now she has both you and OM.
I am curious as to what it would take for you to really drop the rope.
How's that? This morning, she sent me a link to a work-related video. I replied "Thanks, I'll try to find the time to see it", rather than watching it and then commenting (also, it's 45-min long) and then switched to questions about the kids.
She asked if I could keep the kids for the night, because it's her office party and she'll come late and drunk and would like to sleep in tomorrow morning. I said, no I can't but didn't explain that it's because I'm leaving town tonight. It's an honest answer, but I'm also happy not to enable further her party lifestyle as the free babysitter (in her eyes, not mine).
Later, we ran into each other on the sidewalk. We acknowledged each other from a distance, I stopped to talk to her but slightly past her (as I'm on my way, in a rush, of course), and spoke about the kids. I could tell she was a little taken aback that I was distant and she started leaving while still speaking, even talking as we had both turned her back. No physical contact. My W is very afraid of rejection (me too, according to my IC) and won't be caught the more interested one, especially under our circumstances. This "cordial withdrawal" (replacing the "positive engagement") of mine will soon take us back to an angry phone call or no contact, but I'm fine with it because I really wish she'd stop contacting me for a while. It's too stressful until I'm detached.
By the way, I was well-dressed and wearing new clothes, which goes to show the importance of doing it even when they're not watching.
Mozza,
You can treat W like a friendly neighbor and then go about your business.
Mozza, Sorry if this was answered elsewhere, but where the heck do you live? While in the military, there were some bases in places where you knew you'd have to send your kids to private schools if you wanted them to keep up with their grade. Unless your kids were labelled as "gifted."
Most public schools in our country have programs for Gifted & Talented kids, usually referred to as "GATE" (Gifted And Talented Education") and that can provide a real boost to the kids' education. It costs nothing.
Assuming you don't have that option, then Would her family help pay for THEIR favorite schooling, IF you wanted to partake in it? And last but NOT least, how far away would this mean?
Are we talking boarding schools abroad or what?
sorry 25yearsmlc, I just realized I didn't answer your post. Thanks for chiming in.
We're probably talking about a different school in the same neighborhood where could still walk the kids every day.
My first issue is money: it's likely some 5-8k more expensive per year. I like your idea of suggesting that her parents pay for all of it, though I've always refused to be subsidized by her parents (I'm a proud self-made man, like her father and he greatly respects me for that). I don't want them to "own" the education of the kids and give the impression that they have a say in it.
My second issue is the need. Private school is not for gifted kids, it's for a different approach. It's more disciplinarian, more work, more homeworks. I just don't think it's needed at that age and my W always agreed with me on this.
Finally, I reject the idea that public schooling is inadequate around here. D6 is thriving in it and just because her language is not yet that of a 50 year old TV host is not a reason to panic and send her to the harshest school. My MIL is a disciplinarian with the highest standards. My W suffered from this in her youth and, perhaps without realizing it, is repeating the pattern now. I'd like to spare it to my kids.
Anyway, my W hasn't brought it up again and it's likely just a "night anxiety" thing, though it might come up again the future. She's dropped a few of those things in the past though. My hope is that we'll be in a much better place to deal with this when it comes up again.
mozza,
ive not really had anything useful to say on your thread fo a bit, but just wanted to say thanks for your support.
If feels like you've settled in for the long haul (accepted the marathon) and thats to be commended - i'm still railing against that and its doing me no favours
anyway. thank you
If feels like you've settled in for the long haul (accepted the marathon) and thats to be commended - i'm still railing against that and its doing me no favours
You're right about that. I've a vision of how this will all unfold and I've known for a long time that my W needs a "romantic disappointment" to understand how relationships work. I knew that before this sitch but wasn't going to offer her to experiment it, hoping that we'd resolve it in the R. So it helps me greatly to be patient when I see the full arc of what needs to happen. Of course, in the meantime I reflect on my own faults and I become a better man and H, something I should have done before and that might have spare me the current ordeal, who knows.
Perhaps you could think of the full cycle that your W needs to go through? Would it help you?
Thinking about this "positive engagement"/"cordial withdrawal", dichotomy, I went back into my threads.
From
November 13, this is about whether I should reply to her lighthearted texts and emails.
Mozza, Use this opportunity to re-attract your W. Why not use this opportunity to show the witty, fun, handsome Mozza? This is a light-hearted exchange which will put positive thoughts about you in her head. Use it or lose it!
Then from
December 7 and
December 8, this is about kissing on the cheeks when we meet.
Yep. Your W is in an A with the OM and she's keeping you in your place as her plan B.
That ^^ is the crux of the whole matter: not accepting crumbs from WAW. I hope every LBH reads this and lets that sink in in their wet noodle minds. HP, no it will signal the death knell of the M. Instead, it will signal the death knell of the Wet Noodle HP and show your W that you mean business when it comes to your boundaries.
I've taken the second advice as meaning that I shouldn't kiss and hug but also engage in email and text banter with W. Have I mixed up the two? Is it a good idea to shine and make her laugh by email, but then avoid physical contact in person?
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to split hair, I'm genuinely confused.
I'm feeling much better. It's like I turned a corner in the last week. I had a hint of ambition a couple of days ago, which was unheard of since DB. I can listen and focus on podcasts. I don't wake up in a panic anymore. I eat normally.
I guess it's because I limit contacts with W and also I haven't had the kids in more than a week, so I can rest. But also, it might just be time. I'm surprised at how much better I feel, even though I'm still sad and crying every day. Could it be detachment?
Detachment and time, my friend. I can attest that it gets better, but not linearly.
Mozza, it is great to hear that you're doing better. I'm still wanting to get to the point where I don't dream about her (my subconscious can be really cruel) but my new diet has started to normalize as well. It sounds to me like you're definitely on your road to detachment, and boy am I envious of you!
Keep it up, friend! Try and stay positive. Remember that your feelings are just that: feelings, and that they can and will improve with time.
- lonelyship
Glad your doing better mozza. I continue to be impressed with your mindset
Mozza, Sorry if this was answered elsewhere, but where the heck do you live? While in the military, there were some bases in places where you knew you'd have to send your kids to private schools if you wanted them to keep up with their grade. Unless your kids were labelled as "gifted."
Most public schools in our country have programs for Gifted & Talented kids, usually referred to as "GATE" (Gifted And Talented Education") and that can provide a real boost to the kids' education. It costs nothing.
Assuming you don't have that option, then Would her family help pay for THEIR favorite schooling, IF you wanted to partake in it? And last but NOT least, how far away would this mean?
Are we talking boarding schools abroad or what?
sorry 25yearsmlc, I just realized I didn't answer your post. Thanks for chiming in.
We're probably talking about a different school in the same neighborhood where could still walk the kids every day.
Sorry I may have forgotten the facts (just got back from a trip). So, my reaction to this^^ statement is, "so what?" Sounds fine to ME...am I missing something?
My first issue is money: it's likely
some 5-8k more expensive per year. I like your idea of suggesting that her parents pay for all of it, though I've always refused to be subsidized by her parents (I'm a proud self-made man, like her father and he greatly respects me for that). I
don't want them to "own" the education of the kids and give the impression that they have a say in it.
Okay I get part of this^^...I do NOT get sending them to a private school--at all--, given the other comments you made. This seems like a no brainer.My second issue is the need. Private school is not for gifted kids, it's for a different approach. It's more disciplinarian, more work, more homeworks.
I just don't think it's needed at that age and my W always agreed with me on this.
Well, I sure hear you...our youngest is in "independent study" which is a combination of home schooling and going to a "class meeting" with a teacher 2 x weekly.
She takes the same tests the students in her old high school take (she is on the Varsity basketball team there, but otherwise she'd have simply done the whole separate program instead of the hybrid).
ANYHOW, her grades are now almost a perfect 4.0 which shows me (& H), that the classwork and BUSY WORK 5 days a week, were Not supporting more learning. They were more tedium than anything. And bullying and goofing off, etc.
It is kind of disheartening to realize that with less than a day and a half of work, she does better on tests than she did while attending school & classes 5 days a week...and she has enough socialization in her other outlets (not that "socialization" in high school is all positive, btw) to compensate for whatever she is losing.
Finally, I reject the idea that public schooling is inadequate around here. D6 is thriving in it and just because her language is not yet that of a 50 year old TV host is not a reason to panic and send her to the harshest school. My MIL is a disciplinarian with the highest standards.
My W suffered from this in her youth and, perhaps without realizing it, is repeating the pattern now. I'd like to spare it to my kids.
AMEN!! There are places we were stationed, that did have lousy public schools. In those places, we sent our oldest to a private school (the elementary school simply did not come into play b/c it's not like gangs infiltrated kindergarten). I mean I GUESS that's possible but even in the interior of Alaska, where the public schools are NOT great, the elementary school was just fine. It was when you hit middle school or high school that the "social" elements got bad and that's when we intervened).
SIDE NOTE: Every single place we moved, (17 moves) without exception, bragged about the "recreational opportunities" and the schools in their area. It's hilarious - except it's not. I guess it's some standard welcome package nonsense.
(Fairbanks Alaska said there was "So much to do"--really? At -50'F, there are only a few things you can do outside...and yeah, I did them all. Fairbanks also said that the schools were "among the best in the state"...which means it's all relative.
In the DC metropolitan area, the public schools are nationally recognized and THOSE schools really are truly fine. So it happens.
I suggest you do what we did when we moved to cities where we knew no one. We'd look online for the AP scores and what % of high schoolers attend college, etc. ALSO check the crime rates and property values. They tend to coalesce into mostly, the same areas--so look for the common areas where those factors overlap. --Makes general sense that the better schools are in the pricier areas and the crime is lower there and the property values are better retained. There are exceptions of course.
But generally, that clues you into the better schools in each area. It worked for our kids. The older ones were accepted at excellent colleges and graduated with honors- so they were well prepared.
We'll cross our fingers with the youngest one but I cannot see how attending a private school is some great solution if your youngest is doing fine anyhow.
ASK her teacher how your D6 is doing. As for her speech...what about speech therapy? Our older d had a speech impediment (she could not do "Rs and "Sh's" until she was almost 10)
AND she was also in the Gifted program. So speech is NOT an index of IQ.
Anyway, my W hasn't brought it up again and it's likely just a "night anxiety" thing, though it might come up again the future. She's dropped a few of those things in the past though. My hope is that we'll be in a much better place to deal with this when it comes up again.
IF it comes up again & you don't want to fall on your sword for it, MAYBE
let the grandparents chip in (a lot) but "Only if" they do Not assume a role in her education beyond that. Seriously. IF my kids asked me to chip in for a private school I was strongly advocating for, but they also said "no strings attached", if it were really important to me I think I could agree.
But Mozza, since this^^^ is all hypothetical, Maybe it's best Not to borrow trouble from tomorrow.
Moving on...
I think your approach to your w sounds, over all, well balanced. I think that sandi telling you to be cooler to her, is also valid. Of course it's crucial that you recall your own role in getting here. So Here's my "guideline" for these situations.
based on the belief that --
Very few married women with children, have affairs, without an essential ingredient missing from their marriage.
I think that's why significantly more marriages end in divorce, when wives have affairs, as opposed to when h's do. It's a symptom of serious issues or unmet needs within the marriage.
Some argue it's because men have bigger/frailer egos, AND OR b/c men are less forgiving than women....and there maybe some truth to that....
But imo, a lot of the end result is related to WHY the affair happened.
I thought you said your w had an affair before this one. (My memory for these important details is failing me at the moment--I was up traveling too late, my apologies).
IF this is not the first affair,
then maybe she's not in the group of wives who were
"missing an element INSIDE the Marriage",
and more in the group of wives for whom there is an essential element missing in THEM
What do you think?
Welcome back, 25yearsmlc! I hope you had a good time. We're glad to see you around.
Regarding the school, it's a matter of cultural differences. Imagine British in-laws who believe that all US elementary schools are crap, the accent is wrong, and the language is trashy. I don't try too hard to make sense of it. My W goes to see her parents over the holidays, so I expect the topic to come up again when she's back or even before.
I thought you said your w had an affair before this one. (My memory for these important details is failing me at the moment--I was up traveling too late, my apologies).
Yes, in 2009 she had an EA then short PA with a coworker. He was married with kids but told her he was crazy in love with her and would divorce. She almost left me (and D6 who was D1 at the time). She confessed and I forgave her. Four years later, he met her briefly and said he was still in love. She thought he was pathetic.
IF this is not the first affair, then maybe she's not in the group of wives who were
"missing an element INSIDE the Marriage",
and more in the group of wives for whom there is an essential element missing in THEM
What do you think?
I think it's both.
I recognize my shortcomings in the M. My W complained to me, in writing in April, about me being a factor in her unhappiness. She told me that she didn't look forward to my return from business trips, that she wasn't thrilled to come back home, etc. She felt she couldn't be herself, she was too criticized,, she was walking on eggshells, that I love the person I want her to be not who she is, etc. She'd observed that I would cuddle the kids and not her. I didn't react well to this, mostly telling her she was wrong and ignoring it. I took her for granted and didn't address these issues quickly. She felt abandoned emotionally. I'm ashamed of this and I now see an IC, I read books and I'm here to learn to be better. This S has changed me and I want the changes to last, if only for my own good.
My W also has unrealistic expectations of love. She thinks that everlasting romantic, exciting love exists. She's very influenced by TV and movies (Love Actually, Sex and the City, Gossip Girl, etc.) and wishes she could love and be loved like this forever. I can tell you that after two pregnancies, with two young kids, periods of unemployment, joint accounts and credit cards, it was not movie-like romantic. She left me to gun for the eternal high. I asked her when she left if she thought that high would last forever (didn't know about OM then) and she said "yes". That's her in a nutshell.
That's why I see hope in my sitch: my W can only be disappointed by OM. The fact that they move in together is actually a good thing because it will normalize their R, bring in routine rather than excitement (they work together in a small place, so it'll be 24/7). Also, our issues are solvable and I was a good H in many other ways, something she acknowledged several times, even during the BD talks. Love was just not exciting enough and I was criticizing her too much. Hopefully, she'll come back to test the waters and see if real, lasting change is possible.
So, all in all, do I keep my distances or do I engage her when she initiates contact? She's still with OM and he's moving in in January.
Mozza,
I have to say I'm impressed at how upbeat & positive you are. If nothing else, that will definitely take you far in life.
Hi Mozza, I hope someone smart answers your question.
In my opinion, at this time distant friendliness - aka neighbor - is probably best.
If your W has you as a buddy she won't need to miss you. She can have her "romantic love" with the OM and still keep you around to chat with over email or whatever.
I say cut out the buddy stuff. People told me this for a long time but I didn't listen. I finally did it and I feel better! I'm not enabling him to have his fantasy life AND me too. My situation is similar to yours in that my WAH is searching for that consuming romantic crush obsession love feeling which is unrealistic in a long term healthy relationship. He is discovering this but is he coming back to me? No. He keeps me as a buddy and continues his search. Don't make my mistake, protect yourself and give her a chance to miss you.
Of course be polite and cordial when you see her - be friendly. But don't be friends!
Stuff like "hi! nice to see you. how are you? that's great! got to run!"
Not "I saw this on TV and isn't it hilarious? ha ha ha" or "let's have lunch together next week!"
Sometimes I imagine it like I have a new boyfriend and he doesn't want me to engage with the ex. So I be polite but cut it short.
That's my advice, but maybe someone else has a better idea.
Hugs, Lisa
The question came up again today. W sent me a video of her Christmas office party. It's password-protected (she included it), not public.
In the video (all in slow-motion), you see W being thrown up in the air, in slow-motion, by two male colleagues and having a good laugh at it. In other images, you see her OM having fun and being funny with huge smiles.
What. The. F...
What is she thinking? Why would she send me a video of her office, after telling me it had been a factor in the S (she saw that she could be happier than in the M). A video starring her OM several times. Like: really?
Perhaps she just didn't think: she thought it was funny and that I would be interested. That's most likely, knowing her. Perhaps she wanted to get a reaction out of me. Perhaps she wanted to tell me it's really over and she's moving on.
I know I'm supposed to detach and not care, but... but... WTF?
-----
Just in case I look angry, I'm actually very sad. I've been crying a lot since I saw the video. The 10 days of improvement have come to a halt. I see her having fun in her new life, having built a new world which occupies 99% of her mind, with a place for me as the co-parent. I see my R hopes as a joke, something that probably doesn't even cross her mind. So much for "optimistic Mozza" today.
Hi Mozza,
your optimism has always been great (I wish yoou could bottle it and send me some)
your W sending you that video was just plain mean. she may not have realised but it was mean and unsurprisingly it had a negative affect.
you might want to ask her not to send that stuff or you might even want to assertively tell her that it was a mean thing to do.
most likely though i'd say your best bet is to just try and ignore them when they are sent. dont open them dont look at them (control the bit you can control)
This is a crooked road and that hurtful video is one of the obstacles that keeps it so hair raising. I'm sorry.
But... Seriously? W being thrown in the air by male colleagues? They can't possibly respect her.
Hang in there. You've got this.
Perhaps she wanted to get a reaction out of me.
That's probably exactly why she sent it. She wants to 'prove' to you that she doesn't regret her decision by showing you how happy she is.
I wouldn't respond. And if she ever asks if you saw it, tell her it must have gotten lost in your inbox. Don't give her the satisfaction. Keep your head up Mozza!
Mozza,
Hang in there, bud.
It was a jerk move by her, obviously insensitive, but mostly I think she's trying to convince herself also that this is how she feels 100% of the time. It's obviously not or she wouldn't have thought about sending it to you in the first place. Just like my W, she's trying to convince others that this new person is who she wants to be because W is so unsure about it herself.
she's trying to convince others that this new person is who she wants to be because W is so unsure about it herself.
I agree.
I wouldn't respond. And if she ever asks if you saw it, tell her it must have gotten lost in your inbox. Don't give her the satisfaction. Keep your head up Mozza!
I agree.
Hang in there. You've got this.
I agree.
most likely though i'd say your best bet is to just try and ignore them when they are sent.
And I agree. You are outclassing your W by a mile and inspiring the rest of us.
This Forum delivered, once again. Thanks a lot everyone for the support. Every single word you wrote has helped. I feel better.
you might want to ask her not to send that stuff or you might even want to assertively tell her that it was a mean thing to do. most likely though i'd say your best bet is to just try and ignore them when they are sent. dont open them dont look at them (control the bit you can control)
But... Seriously? W being thrown in the air by male colleagues? They can't possibly respect her.
Perhaps she wanted to get a reaction out of me.
That's probably exactly why she sent it. She wants to 'prove' to you that she doesn't regret her decision by showing you how happy she is.
I wouldn't respond. And if she ever asks if you saw it, tell her it must have gotten lost in your inbox. Don't give her the satisfaction.
I didn't respond by the way.It was a jerk move by her, obviously insensitive, but mostly I think she's trying to convince herself also that this is how she feels 100% of the time. It's obviously not or she wouldn't have thought about sending it to you in the first place. Just like my W, she's trying to convince others that this new person is who she wants to be because W is so unsure about it herself.
You are outclassing your W by a mile and inspiring the rest of us.
Everybody: thanks for saving the evening. It's been a close call.
I thought you said your w had an affair before this one. (My memory for these important details is failing me at the moment--I was up traveling too late, my apologies).
IF this is not the first affair,
then maybe she's not in the group of wives who were
"missing an element INSIDE the Marriage",
and more in the group of wives for whom there is an essential element missing in THEM
What do you think?
[/color]
25years,
Sorry to highjack, but my W told me during that one weekend she actually talked to me that she's had multiple EA's over the course of our R.
She said she was going to talk to MC about that when she said we would try to R, but when we got to MC she wanted no part of anything with R and I've heard nothing of this since then.
First, she said when we were dating she kissed another man, they were drunk. I didn't know about that until she told me just now. I did know at one point before we were M (13 years ago), she had a friend that she got drunk with and ended up kissing, nothing else. She told me about that all the way back then and I got upset, but let it go. Anyway, she said that another friend of her's from about 8 years ago she tried to kiss and he said no, that she was M. Then we have OM from now.
I validated her on telling me this and said that everyone has feelings like this sometimes. It gave me a glimpse that she was trying to work some of this out in her head and with a MC/IC, but since that time she regressed to just being angry at me.
Highjack over, if you have any insight can you reply back over on my thread (I thought everything was okay)? Thanks for all of your help
Perhaps she wanted to get a reaction out of me.
That's probably exactly why she sent it. She wants to 'prove' to you that she doesn't regret her decision by showing you how happy she is.
I wouldn't respond. And if she ever asks if you saw it, tell her it must have gotten lost in your inbox. Don't give her the satisfaction. Keep your head up Mozza!
I would NOT MIND read about this anymore. It is unprovable, unknowable, destructive and frankly, it's also SELF INFLICTED.
Your wife may not have had ANY "motive"-- other than sharing. She's not "of this world" at the moment.
Stay the course Mozza and for God's sake, work on GAL and Detaching more.
IF I were to mind read -which I hesitate to do-- I would not see this as mean. Clueless, yes. Mean? No.
I read a quote the other day that usually applies to how I see our government, but could also apply here.
"Never ascribe malice or conspiracy to behavior that sheer incompetence can explain."
Since her being clueless is at least as likely as her being mean, it benefits you most to believe that, and to move on.
Again, stay the course.
This is a crooked road and that hurtful video is one of the obstacles that keeps it so hair raising. I'm sorry.
But... Seriously? W being thrown in the air by male colleagues? They can't possibly respect her.
Hang in there. You've got this.
I'm not sure if it is important or at all relevant, etc...but the "toss your colleague in the air" struck me as odd. Pretty much what Maybel said.^^
I once worked at a corporation where the CEO said if we got the account with a big buyer, HE would do cartwheels down the hall.
We did get it. HE did cartwheels (good ones, too!) and there was affection for him and respect.
He's also been the guy to dunk at charity events...Very capable of not taking himself too seriously.
But I am not familiar with your w's occupation, or if she is a supervisor, etc.
Sometimes it's fun to mock the boss, but if it's a colleague, it seems a bit "too familiar" for my tastes. But before I went "California corporate", I was military.
So maybe that's just my perspective.
You know what really matters though?
The only thing that matters is what YOUR GAL is today. What's up with that??
Thanks 25yearsmlc. My inclination is also that she's clueless. It fits patterns in the couple where she'd have no empathy for me. And I also love that quote and use it too.
You know what really matters though?
The only thing that matters is what YOUR GAL is today. What's up with that??
I don't talk about it much around here, but I GAL plenty. Today, I went to an indoor amusement park with my two daughters along with my friend with his two kids the same age as mine. We've had some 4-5 hours of fun there. I was very touched by D3 at some point. I opened a box of Smarties and instead of eating them, she'd feed them to me. So I fed her some. It was an exchange. When D6 came and frantically tried to eat as much as she could, D3 would fight to get some, but then always feed them to me. It was more important for her to share with me than to eat chocolate. I was so touched and proud of her, I had tears in my eyes.
The day had started in my bed where the kids came to cuddle. D6 was looking forward to it since yesterday. They're very affectionate with me, telling me that they miss me, that they love me. I tell them just as much and we hug a lot.
D6 cried because she misses her mom for the first time last night. W is gone to her country for some 16-17 days, so D6 knows it's longer than usual. It was a bit of a relief for me because even though I want them to go through the ordeal as smoothly as possible, a part of me was sad to see them unaffected by not seeing one of their parents each week. D6 is starting to send more signals that she cares. She said she prefers the four of us together. She asked me if I missed mom too and I just said a sober "Yes".
Tomorrow, we're going to a birthday party, Monday I take D6 to work, Tuesday we're going to my parents, Wednesday is Christmas Eve, etc. We're plenty busy.
When I have the kids, I cook every day, they're never late at school, homeworks are completed, clean clothes, brushed teeth and all. The standards have not been lowered because I'm alone and I'm proud of this.
I also GAL when I don't have the kids, doing my workout, reading, seeing friends, visiting friends in other cities, hosting guests (an excuse to cook), a bit of volunteering, etc. This plus work and keeping the house together, cleaning, ironing, etc. I'm impressed at myself because I expected to fall apart much more than this.
Thanks for checking, 25yearsmlc!
Mozza,
Sounds like a great day. I do shudder to think how my outlook would be if I didn't have kids. They really do force us to get out of ourselves and try to bring our best each day. And once in a while there are these mundane, but thoroughly touching moments like you had with your girls today. Beautiful, man.
Also, I was glad to see 25's comments here. I tend to ascribe malice to a lot of my W's actions as well. That may say more about me than her... But I'm really glad there are women and men both piping up on these forums. The diversity in the POVs is helpful.
Hey Mozza, I know it's old news but I just wanted to comment on your video story. My H also works in a "young" company with a fun party atmosphere and it has had a huge influence on BD and the whole situation. And his OW1 was his younger colleague. So I truly understand the boat you are in.
A few months back my H's office had a big party and there were lots of photos posted to facebook. Of course I had blocked the company facebook page, his facebook page, and all of his coworker's facebook pages, but I still saw a few pop up from mutual friends.
I purposely did not look at the hundreds of photos in the albums on their company sites. I figured why torture myself?
Anyway, I saw him a week or so after the party and he gleefully showed me some photos on his phone and then said "you saw the facebook pictures right?" like it was the most natural thing in the world for me to be fascinated by his office party pictures. If we are not together why on earth would I go out of my way to see his office party pictures?
So I agree with the others that say she is just clueless and wants to show off how incredible her life is now. She is not thinking of your feelings, she is in her own crazy fog world imagining she is the queen of the universe and the belle of the ball.
Don't react, and if she asks just say you didn't see it or didn't have time to watch it, or whatever.
Enjoy this time with your kids while your W is away.
Hugs, Lisa
Oh and by the way I finally did look at the photos from the party weeks later. OW1 looked fat and frumpy and there were no photos of WAH. The party looked boring.
Thanks a lot LisaB. I really appreciate that you stop by to share your thoughts and the video is not old news at all. I wish I could move on in a day or two, but these things stay with me.
A few months back my H's office had a big party and there were lots of photos posted to facebook. Of course I had blocked the company facebook page, his facebook page, and all of his coworker's facebook pages, but I still saw a few pop up from mutual friends.
I purposely did not look at the hundreds of photos in the albums on their company sites. I figured why torture myself?
I'm impressed. This is my biggest DB difficulty: I can't cut any channel of information to my W. My friend who's following my sitch closest keeps handing my 2x4 about this because it really impacts my PMA. Case in point: yesterday she posted a picture of herself with her father and OM "liked" it on FB. Aouch! Mood ruined for a couple of hours. I have this obsessive "need to know" which is doing me no good. I know I have to stop, but I haven't found a way. Sheer will is in short supply right now.
Don't react, and if she asks just say you didn't see it or didn't have time to watch it, or whatever.
That's what I did. She called me on Friday and her first question (?!) was whether I watched the video. I said I hadn't gotten to it yet. Unfortunately, I then asked "Was it a good party?" to move the conversation along, so I got an earful about how much of what she drank (wine and sake), how many of her colleagues threw up (4) and how late she came home (3:30 am).
GAL report: I've four kids between the ages of 3 and 6 in my living room watching The Cat in the Hat right now!
Mozza why not block her on FB?
Mozza why not block her on FB?
Because I want to know what she's up to, I guess? Because I feel I can use this information when interacting with her? Because I miss her? I doubt have a good enough reason, but I feel a very strong resistance to the idea of blocking her FB and Instagram. How would it help me to bust that D if I did?
Mozza,
Mozza why not block her on FB?
Because I want to know what she's up to, I guess? Because I feel I can use this information when interacting with her? Because I miss her? I doubt have a good enough reason, but I feel a very strong resistance to the idea of blocking her FB and Instagram.
How would it help me to bust that D if I did? It will help you detach. As you said, your PMA crashes when you do take a peek. For me, I stay the hell away from anything to do with Ms. Wonka and her OW. Although I have seen a picture or two. Gag!
Staying away from FB isn't going to 'bust a D' of and by itself. It is your 180s and consistent changes that hopefully would bust a D. Focus on this part and forget about FB!
Your response to W's query about her video was a doozy. C'mon...where's the take charge Mozza??
Thanks a lot, Wonka. It helps to chip away my mental resistance to blocking her on social media. I agree that seeing her there affects my PMA.
Your response to W's query about her video was a doozy. C'mon...where's the take charge Mozza??
That's a surprise, I thought it was good and it's what everyone told me. You think I should have set a boundary, like
"No, I decided not to look at it. You left me when you got this job and go out with a colleague. I don't need to see you all happy at work and even less to see your BF."?
Mozza,
You don't want to encourage those types of behaviors in W. You're not in high school anymore where kids play boyfriends and girlfriends like musical chairs.
Just say,"I have no interest in viewing stupid videos that belong in a high school." That's just me.
A more apt response would be "Really?"
You don't want to encourage those types of behaviors in W. You're not in high school anymore where kids play boyfriends and girlfriends like musical chairs.
Just say,"I have no interest in viewing stupid videos that belong in a high school." That's just me.
A more apt response would be "Really?"
I know she's the one who left and shackled with an OM, but I feel an enormous amount of guilt for how I made her feel in the M, which makes it very difficult for me to be self-righteous or even mildly mean. I feel like she left because she was hurt by me, she needed to heal and that I need to make up for it, not make her feel bad about her choices, about what she says to me, etc.
Let me give you more details in the next post. It may affect my whole approach to my sitch.
I found an email that my W sent me in early August, one month before BD and one week before her new job and meeting OM. That day, I was out at an amusement park with D6 for the day (D6 had won 2 tickets), W was home with D3 and I was giving W the silent treatment for not trying to solve our fights in the past months. She was distressed by this. Here are a few excerpts.
"I can't remember the last time I was this unhappy about our relationship. I'm reaching out to friends for support. I wonder if we are really, at bottom, mismatched together. We both know how different we are, but such clashes are so terrible and destructive and the lack of communication makes it all so much worse."
"I can't believe how much I can hate you, how much I can hurt you, how much I disappoint you or resent you. I feel such negativity emanating from us, like we are some toxic thing. I wish there was a way to take a break from each other without hurting each other. When I was on holiday I felt fine and happy. How can I be back and so miserable?"
"I don't care: I want to dull the pain. I can't leave, so I can only escape in my head: medication, reading, music, movies. Im sure this is costing you too, somehow. (...) When I think of you, I get nervous."
"Perhaps this is all stemming from my need to be understood. Which I feel you're not. Or if you do understand me, then you do not love what you see, you don't accept it."
"I've stopped expecting you to respond in any kind of way. Or just to expect your response will be satisfactory. That I'll ever get a response free from criticism, ever. It makes me even sadder."
She also mentions taking her meds and alcohol to numb the pain. W was not drinking at the time, especially not alone (ever).
Mozza,
Thanks for posting this email from W.
From what I read, it sounds like she's in a fair amount of pain. Also see a lot of justifications which is incredibly unfair and immature.
We have had several exchange in your previous threads about your harsh and constant criticisms which has eroded the love bonds with your daughters and W. There is a fine line between being supportive and enabling destructive behaviors. You need to use discernment when responding to W's communications.
Right now, your W is in a very selfish and self-absorbed phase that is not appropriate or acceptable. For me, I really don't care to view those videos. Your W's query reminds me of a giggling teenager asking her friends "how far out" that behavior was...and posting it on YouTube just for laughs.
Your W is vying for the Miss Popular crown. Such low self-worth that she needs to seek external validation to boost her sense of worth. Don't you see this at all, Mozza?
However, pay CAREFUL ATTENTION to the last sentence that she will "ever get a response free of criticism".....that is huge for W.
I feel awful, shameful about this email.
My W was terribly unhappy with me and I was mostly oblivious to it. How can a H make his W so miserable? How can it be me? How can one become such a monster and not realize it? Or am I overracting and was my W being dramatic in that email, or oversensitive?
The sentence about the "break" is a warning that she's soon willing to breakup with me, something I had not registered at the time. I thought of a break like going on a trip alone, visiting her parents, etc. I realize now its true meaning. Five days later, she started her new job and met OM. I know my W made the bad decision to leave the M for him, but I had left the door wide open for OM to walk in. I wasn't taking care of my W like a good H should.
I feel I deserve to be punished. I was mean to my W and would not hear her calls for help. Leaving me is what she needs to heal and what I need to open my eyes on the impact of my behavior in the M. The H I was does not deserve to be married. She had a young, handsome and attentive colleague who was willing to fulfill her emotional needs. Right this moment, I just can't bring myself to be upset that she went for it. It was a glass of ice water in the desert. The dopamine kicked in and I was history.
Mozza,
You've got to stop beating yourself up and taking the blame for W's poor choices. They're all on her, not you. Granted, you didn't do a good job of being a supportive H.
Focus on what you CAN control. That is a lot of power...take it back.
Keep working on those 180s.
Your W is vying for the Miss Popular crown. Such low self-worth that she needs to seek external validation to boost her sense of worth. Don't you see this at all, Mozza?
More or less. It helps to read it here. I feel I understand where she comes from, that I'm the person who got her self-esteem in the gutter and now she takes it from a group of young people who hand out esteem points based on partying behavior. It's not sustainable, but how can I blame her considering where I got her? That's what was offered to her at a time of need.
However, pay CAREFUL ATTENTION to the last sentence that she will "ever get a response free of criticism".....that is huge for W.
Yes, and I've finally heard this on BD. As MWD writes in DR, separation can truly change a man. I have not criticized my W once since she left. When she got upset at me, a couple of times in the first month, I responded with kindness and it worked. During the S talks, I pointed at my changed behavior (it was pre-DB!) and she said she didn't believe it was sustainable. I understood then that I could only speak with my actions and let her see them.
This is why I have an inclination to be kind and engaging in my communications with her, despite the OM. On Friday, before she flew to her home country, we had a text exchange and I engaged her. We ended up exchanging book recommendations for instance. After dinner, she called to talk to the kids (a first) and then she and I spoke for 30 minutes, chit chatting, laughing and settling a few things about the kids. I was feeling too much guilt to cut the conversation short. I wanted to show her that I'm a better listener and interested in her.
Now I'm just confused as to what I should be doing, the general attitude I should adopt. I got called a "wet noodle" when I kissed her on the cheeks when she leaned towards me. Am I really supposed to be distant until she leaves OM or isn't that just confirming her idea that I'll never change?
Keep working on those 180s.
I'm afraid my 180s are hardly visible outside of an R, which explains why all my friends think I'm great and that my WAW messed up when she left me -- I look great from the outside, so my W moved out there to enjoy the view.
- She felt I was criticizing her too much. I stopped entirely and understand why.
- She was missing physical contact with me. I can't do this now.
- She felt I wasn't paying attention to her. I'm told here I should limit my email/text engagement with her.
- I wasn't speaking her love language (Words of Affirmation) which doesn't seem an option now. I do encourage her about work when she talks about it.
For the rest, it was fine: no problems with my appearance, social skills, job and income, sense of humor, parenting skills, family and friends, house duties, cooking, etc. She sees me as some mean/cold/distant overachiever, I guess. I vaguely recall her using the word "robot". I'm afraid the DB way of looking happy and moving on just makes things worse, sends the signal that I was never the loving H she deserves.
-----
I'm also curious about the opinion of more women on this board - Maybell, LisaB, Little, Vanilla, T0324, Calibri, etc. - on the email above. How would you feel about reconciling with a H who made you feel that way? What could he do to prove you that he gets it now?
Mozza, I feel for you and would also love to get more perspective from women on your earlier post/email from W. Thanks for sharing with all of us. I see a lot of similarities in your sitch with my own.
Mozza,
Just reading up on some of your sitch/thread. I read the email from your W sent you. It takes a lot of time for someone to develop such negative feelings. It will take plenty of time for her perspective to change.
Take the things that hit home, and begin changing them. Not everything your W says is all on you. However, a lot of identifying and addressing the issues is the way to change her perspective. Then remain consistent. Remember, these changes are for you.
Hi Mozza,
I'm curious. can you remember how you responded to that email from your Wife?
In terms of your 180s i'm starting to realise that some emotions can pervade all aspects of our lives regardless of how well we think we are controlling them. If you are making 180s that affect how you are then this will leak out in hundreds of tiny and almost imperceptible and noticeable ways.
yes some of the 180s you cant show her, but there are ways she will sense some of them and she will see you interact with your daughters so she might observe them as well
LITB: I agree: it will take time to undo this. It's only been three months since she left. She doesn't say much about what bothers her in this email, apart from the criticism, but she did in another email in April and I'll return to it to parse it further.
I'm curious. can you remember how you responded to that email from your Wife?
Good question. I didn't reply in writing -- I was at an amusement park with D6, which might explain also why I glossed over important parts of the email. When I got home, we agreed to talk when the kids were in bed. I then suggested that we try to refill the love tanks (didn't know about the concept back then) by saying things we liked about each other. It had a positive impact that night in that, for once, we left the conversation feeling better about each other. But we never went back to the important topics. In a way, you can say I never replied to this email, which only adds to my sense of guilt.
Christmas eve is the big party around here and it went well. I was very happy to have the kids and they enjoyed their evening, going to bed past 1 am.
Today, I put them on Skype to talk to their mom. I didn't get into the picture, though my hands and voice appeared a couple of times. My W called on my parents to come in the picture and they went. The kids asked about OM. I got in the picture as she was waving goodbye and wishing a happy new year, but I'm not even sure she saw me.
I don't know if this was the right thing to do, but who cares. She's probably showering OM with emails, calls and texts saying how much she misses and loves him at the moment. Really, what does it matter what I did in this video call? It doesn't.
Some of you have complex interactions with your WAS but mine are very limited despite the kids, in part because of my lack of reciprocity when she contacts me. It seems that I bet the house on time and patience because there's no other bet.
Hi Mozza,
Responding the to request for a woman's perspective. It's hard to directly answer your question about whether a woman would return to a M when she felt like that. We are all here because we hope our W/H will change their mind. So I want the answer to be a big fat YES! For you, me, all of us.
The letter is hard to read - I'm sure it breaks your heart now to know that she was in so much pain. I'm with Wonka though, there's a lot that she's responsible for that she doesn't acknowledge. Based on her actions with the video I think she has probably relied on other-validation rather than self-validation for a lot of her life in order to feel good about herself. She's the victim in that letter, and only part of that relates to you. Actually - at one month pre BD - I think this was part of the WAS script, trying to pin things on you and make you feel bad. Many of us could have received that letter.
Great that you've stopped the criticism.
The other line that stands out to me is the one about her need to be understood and reference to the fact that you don't. That's a cue to you to develop your active listening skills and validate, validate, validate. Not just while you are DBing, but always.
Words of affirmation is one of my LL. I think this is one LL that doesn't conflict with DB approaches because you can still do all this while showing you are moving on with your life, with or without her. Find opportunities to praise her, to say things that make her feel good about herself (in a sincere way of course). Note the link between this LL and my comment about other-validation above, also the quick move to OM; she feels good about herself when other people make her feel that way. It doesn't have to be over the top. Might be as simple as verbally acknowledging that she is competent at something, that you know she can handle something because she is good at it etc. might feel odd to you, but on this side of it I can tell you it feels GOOD! Being kind to her also fills her tank (as you noticed) and so I agree that a hardline approach is probably going to work at cross purposes in your situation.
Hope this helps.
Thanks a lot, ganb8te. I really appreciate you took the time to give me your perspective. As you can imagine, I've been thinking a lot about that email in the last few days.
I find it interesting that several people have noted that she's responsible for some of her situation. I tend to take a lot of responsibility for how she feels and it has been part of our dynamic. I'm thinking that perhaps this separation is a necessary step for her to see who she is without me, problems included, and coming back more in charge of her feelings. I certainly know I'm learning a lot in her absence about how I make other people feel.
It's interesting you think I should validate her and avoid the hardline approach. I've done so some times since DB and it seems to do us both good. I'm just puzzled because she's in a R with OM and I've been told that I give her my blessing by acting nice with her, that I cannot "nice her back" in the M. This contradiction is not entirely resolved for me.
Again, thanks a lot.
Hi Mozza,
I really like this advice from Ganb8te! One of my LL is words of affirmation too and I completely agree. Even when I am angry at WAH if he really says something positive about me I feel great. It has to be genuine though and not just flattery.
Maybe think of a list of things you could affirm or compliment and keep them on the backburner for when they are appropriate.
I know it is confusing in light of the other aspect of this where she is with OM and you need to take a hard line. Here's how I would envision it: she drops the kids off and you are impressed with something about how she handled them. Let's say the kids are very well dressed, or she packed nice lunches for them, or I have no idea but you get the picture. You can validate her by saying "wow you did such a nice job with..." I would not say "wow you look beautiful!" (I'm sure she would like to hear that but I think that crosses the line when she is with OM and all that) In other words, compliment her on friend like things, not on wife like things. Don't do it too much but once in a while is good.
Moving backwards...to social media. Oh Mozza, stop looking at her facebook!!!!! It is a horrible thing to do to yourself. I know how hard it is to stop, but I did it and so can you. Here is what you can try.
First of all, go to her page and stop "following" her. She will have no idea but you won't see her updates anymore in your news feed. And do this for anyone else you know in common who might share information about her. You won't be missing anything. You can still be "friends" you can still see her page anytime. But here is my advice: don't look!
How I did it was that I told myself I would not look at WAH's facebook page (or OW or their twitter or instagram etc etc) for a week. I felt soooooo much better. I kept doing it for another week. Then I slipped and looked at their pages. Felt crappy. Remembered that it only hurts me and doesn't help me. Stopped looking again. Now I haven't looked in a month. Yes the temptation is there. Even writing this now I want to go look. But it only HURTS ME. Stop for a day, stop for a week, whatever you can do. And then see how much better you feel not having to look at it in your face!
Regarding your response about the video I think you did perfectly. However, I would also not ask about the party.
That's what I did. She called me on Friday and her first question (?!) was whether I watched the video. I said I hadn't gotten to it yet. Unfortunately, I then asked "Was it a good party?" to move the conversation along, so I got an earful about how much of what she drank (wine and sake), how many of her colleagues threw up (4) and how late she came home (3:30 am).
My friend, I see so many similarities with our situations. To make conversation I asked WAH about one of his work parties and got almost the exact same response you did...how much he drank, how his coworkers threw up and how sick he felt the next day. Seriously.
So here is something I have been doing, not exactly on purpose to be dismissive but mostly because I don't want to know what he is up to and hear about his OWs and his fun party life. I never ask "how was..." or "what did you do this weekend?" It makes conversation so awkward sometimes not to ask so I mainly try to talk about my own GAL and PMA. So maybe you could have said something like:
she: did you see the video
you: nope, no time yet
she: ....
you: ....
awkward
you: yesterday I went skydiving and the day before that I went skiing on Mount Kilimanjaro
Just a joke but you get the idea. Probably the best thing is to say less but if you have to talk say something about you GAL, not in a bragging way though.
You get the idea.
Mozza, keep your head up! You are doing well, you just need to keep working on yourself, your 180s and GAL and letting her do her thing and work through her issues on her own. Stop watching her and asking her about it.
Hugs, Lisa
Hi Lisa
That's good advice, thanks for sharing it. I don't have the FB problem, but I do have the WAS and OW problem!
Toots x
Oh and because I didn't write a long enough novel above I also wanted to add something about the other-validation stuff Ganb8te mentioned and what you discussed about continuing to be nice to her.
My H is the same. He is looking for external validation and that is why he is trying to conquer as many OWs as possible and searching for it in his party lifestyle. And yet coming back to me for security, comfort and validation too.
And like you I could tell it helped both of us to have a nice fun friendly relationship so I kept doing it.
Guess what Mozza? He still kept looking for OWs and trying to talk to me daily. No.
Indeed she wants affirmation and friendship from you. But you have to do the tricky thing and show her you CAN do it but you choose not to because she is not your wife right now. She is someone else's girlfriend. You don't validate and affirm someone else's girlfriend, right?
It's tricky. Let's brainstorm this together?
I'll shut up now...
Thank you so much LisaB for taking the time!
I've been using Words of Affirmation with W, validating her and never criticizing. I'd encourage her with her difficulties at work, tell her she can do it, etc. I've done the same when she called because she had difficulties with the kids. I'll focus on the "friends things" as you suggested. I've to say that the opportunities are few and far in between now, as our communications become rarer. Apparently, the goal is to make her miss me.
I'll soon tell the story of how I dumped my previous GF for my (then future) W, but one thing I can immediately say is that I didn't have a care in the world for my ex-GF when I was in love with W. I feel I'm on the receiving end of this, although my W does communicate way more with me then I did my ex-GF did. Basically, it would never contact her, except for practical stuff. It doesn't give me hope of a R because it reminds me how much I had moved on, much like my W has now.
First of all, go to her page and stop "following" her.
I'VE DONE IT! It' a big deal: I've been trying to do this for weeks or months. I only did it though because I know I can always go back and see her updates (and I can revert it...). But at least, I'll have to make an effort and I won't have the anxiety of seeing her when scrolling through my FB feed. I don't have the nerves to do it with Instagram because her account is protected so I'd lose access for good. Weak me.
Probably the best thing is to say less but if you have to talk say something about you GAL, not in a bragging way though. wink You get the idea.
Thanks for the advice. I never ask questions and this time I asked just to move the conversation along but I immediately regretted it. At the same time, I feel like I gathered intelligence about where she stands, which is exactly at the same place as when she left ("partyyyy!"). I'd never talk about my GAL though, it's not DB. She has to discover it herself otherwise it looks like I've done it for her. I was happy when the kids told her how I'm working out every day.
Indeed she wants affirmation and friendship from you. But you have to do the tricky thing and show her you CAN do it but you choose not to because she is not your wife right now. She is someone else's girlfriend. You don't validate and affirm someone else's girlfriend, right?
It's tricky. Let's brainstorm this together?
Thanks LisaB, I like to hear about your experience. Your story seems to match the advice of the vets. No amount of being nice and present is bringing him back.
So far, the way I've shown her that I can validate but I don't is by being inconsistent. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Inconsistency is not DB at all... I haven't cracked this one yet.
Oh, by the way, if you still have some ink left, what do you think about the letter she wrote in August?
Hi Mozza, thanks for taking the time to reply to my comments!
In regard to her letter from August, I agree with the other posters, she seems to be expressing her pain and suffering at the tension and problems in your relationship. And at the end is the most telling part where she expresses that she feels you won't engage or communicate with her about the problems.
I think it is good to have some deep thinking about letters like this, but now when she is involved in this new relationship is not really a good time to communicate with her about it.
But you can think about it and how you can address these problems now, and if she ever approaches you to talk in the future, maybe you could bring up some solutions to problems she broached in the letter?
Just to go back to the previous conversations... congrats on unfollowing her on Facebook. I know what you mean as far as instagram. I suggest deleting it from your phone. The less you see the better for you. Take it one day at a time. You can always go back and look later but you will feel better if you don't. You don't need any more ammo. I know you are curious and feel like you want to know what is going on and that knowledge is power. I totally relate. But it hurts and sets you back on your own happiness. Don't let that happen.
And also it is totally fine to talk about your GAL, why not? GAL... you went to a great concert, GAL... you went on a hike, you took a dance class, whatever. You can talk about it! You don't talk about your 180s like look babe I changed for you. No. Exciting new activities are great subjects of conversation, to me they are one of the very best things you can discuss with the WAS. Showing you are having a good, exciting life and are happy. Nothing is better than that! Of course you have to discuss it naturally, not brag or throw it in their face. But just naturally excited about things you are doing if it is appropriate in conversation. Also great for them to find out on their own but fine to mention them too if it is natural. That's my opinion.
Good for you on the facebook I am happy to hear that! Keep it going Mozza!
Hugs, Lisa
In a way it's not db, but if she's asks what did you do yesterday, then I climbed mount k, is ok so long as you did climb it.
She's says why can't you do xyz, it's ok to say I have plans to go out to dinner, running or sky diving.
It's ok also to post gal on fb. You need to create that whole air, I'm getting calls and questions from neighbours, where were you going dressed up made up etc. I make up a reply that says very little and none of your bees wax in a nice jokey way. Fb should work for you not against you.
I most definitely have a mystery bf, according to local chin wagers. Dress well create mystery, the rest takes care if it's self.
Well done for unfollowing her on fab Mozza. It took me a while to do that as well but I'm glad I did. It also helps with not snooping in other areas.
Mozza, I have been considering my reply to the call for female responses. I do need to say that although nearly a WAW, I am not wayward and can't add that aspect to my response (as Sandi would gently caution).
This email is a very important insight in the relationship (as was) between Mozza and Mrs M at that stage. I think it's important that we note W sent the email when she knew you would not be there to discuss it immediately. I think it's also interesting that she chose email and I wonder if that is her preference. Mozza all of this is past, the only thing Mozza can do is leave this behind him, learn and move on.
I found an email that my W sent me in early August, one month before BD and one week before her new job and meeting OM. That day, I was out at an amusement park with D6 for the day (D6 had won 2 tickets), W was home with D3 and I was giving W the silent treatment for not trying to solve our fights in the past months. She was distressed by this. Here are a few excerpts.
"I can't remember the last time I was this unhappy about our relationship. I'm reaching out to friends for support. I wonder if we are really, at bottom, mismatched together. We both know how different we are, but such clashes are so terrible and destructive and the lack of communication makes it all so much worse."
This is a simple statement of W feelings. My evaluation is it is insightful, well worded and probably well considered
"I can't believe how much I can hate you, how much I can hurt you, how much I disappoint you or resent you. I feel such negativity emanating from us, like we are some toxic thing. I wish there was a way to take a break from each other without hurting each other. When I was on holiday I felt fine and happy. How can I be back and so miserable?"
this sentence is a mix of mind reading by W and her feelings. It comes across as confused. It is also a clear request for space.
"I don't care: I want to dull the pain. I can't leave, so I can only escape in my head: medication, reading, music, movies. Im sure this is costing you too, somehow. (...) When I think of you, I get nervous."
"Perhaps this is all stemming from my need to be understood. Which I feel you're not. Or if you do understand me, then you do not love what you see, you don't accept it."
"I've stopped expecting you to respond in any kind of way. Or just to expect your response will be satisfactory. That I'll ever get a response free from criticism, ever. It makes me even sadder."
Mozza this is key, it is confused and muddled but a reach for warmth and positivity from you. A simple "W, I don't understand all your feelings but I can see why you have them, this is clearly not a good place for you, come for a hug and let's talk this through when you are ready"
She also mentions taking her meds and alcohol to numb the pain. W was not drinking at the time, especially not alone (ever).
The email is a mix of well thought out wording, crie de coeur and raw pain. A great deal of analysis won't help you. W feelings, thoughts and emotions are all her own.
It will not help you to hit yourself with a hammer on this, but I go back to earlier posts of yours on criticisms and judgements of W and in particular your D6. These I found very concerning , but Mozza has moved on since then. He is in a different space.
My sense Mozza is that your 180 is likely to be very different. DB is about doing that which works, and if being more open and indeed even a little noodle is a 180 then do it. But it doesn't mean accepting or condoning wayward behaviour, videos, or OM of any kind. This may mean especially with your D6 softness care love and no criticism or judgement together with demonstrating this. detachment is your key here. Your questions were very specific for your female DB pals but I don't believe i can give you the comforting answer that you seek.
W is on a journey and you will have to let her take it. She may be also seeking to release her own resentment by making you aware of her behaviour or it may be a mistaken case of bravado etc. who knows what crazy thoughts are there? detach let go of judgement and work on you. Well done for removing FB, you don't have to be aware of all of the rubbish.
I would caution you to keep a copy of the MP4 stored somewhere out of reach like your L office. W life style choices are poor and now you need to protect yourself and those precious children.
When W eventually emerges as eventually she must then Mozza will need every practiced DB technique not to revert to old patterns. These changes are made for the best. My last post on your thread I left you with questions, some of them are now resolved, and I trust the rest on their way to being worked on.
Mozza there is little left to say other than you are only beginning the next phase of your journey and I wish you peace.
Vanilla
My original thread
Just can't beleave Here is my summary of my success story.
Success, but not the way I wanted, planned, or even could imagine. W had a childhood sexual trauma, determining her future development. She never admitted to me, so I have never had the chance of helping her, or preventing her fate. The hidden sin was present deep in our life, giving retrospective understanding of some disfunctionality I considered entirely my fault. We were sitting over a time-bomb that finally fulfilled its purpose. Her perverter (OM) reached out from the dark past and claimed back his victim.
The action of W made me get to know the OM previous prey. Getting close to her a new world opened to me, with such deepness, richness and beauty of soul and human totality, that have been hidden from me and I was even unaware of its existence. The feeling of miracle is mutual. (I know what rebound R is, but we are convinced that it is far beyond that.)
I can’t interpret it otherwise than the merciful intervention of God, who elevated me from the very deepness of hell to the heaven. I have not deserved this but this is my most important task for the future.
The rest is simply legal.
I could hardly be here without the support I got here. Thank you.
Thank for checking, Vanilla. Yes, I'm ok. The Holidays are very busy. I have the kids, lots of GAL and celebrations.
Also, I don't know what to do. Or think.
It seems like I'm now in the waiting game. My W has left me and OM is moving in with her next week. Our communications are cordial and to a minimum. It feels like a quick end to a relationship that made her unhappy. It saddens me greatly that the whole S talks were based on lies to get out ASAP and with OM, so we won't have closure, I won't really know what's in her heart or tell her what's in mine. The kids take it in strides. Time to move on, everybody.
My W is on her own journey, as you said. And, as 25yearsmlc's coach told her, life will show her the consequences of her choices; I should just get out of the way. Work on myself. It seems like I already have that plan in place, with the IC, some books, single parenting properly, new clothes and grooming, workout, etc. Not much to add just now.
I find it difficult. My mind is racing and begging for a final answer right NOW, like that of all LBS here. I know, and tell others, that we need to be patient. So that's what I'm doing. I'm still crying several times a day because my W is gone, she's with OM, I lost half my kids, they lost half of each parent, etc. So many layers of hurt. And yet, nothing to do but try to accept it and move on. I do improve overall, every week and I don't know what the future is made of.
So, with all the types of LBS around her, you can see me as the sad and resigned one who's trying to put on a good face and play by the book, hoping that time will make things better, one way or another.
Well Mozza, fortunately there is an upside to her leaving and moving in with OM. Their fantasy bubble will be well and truly burst as they start to deal with the reality of their situation now. Part time parenting and step parenting, discovering each other's annoying habits and being together 24/7...It may all combine to strip away the great romance pretty quickly. Of course it may not, but we know how many of these sitches turn out don't we?
In the mean time, you have some peace and space to become the person you want to be going forwards...whatever your W may be doing.
Of course you will grieve, and it is painful, but keep all of this in mind and try to move forwards as best you can....who knows their relationship may be starting to implode as I type....;-)
Well Mozza, fortunately there is an upside to her leaving and moving in with OM. Their fantasy bubble will be well and truly burst as they start to deal with the reality of their situation now. Part time parenting and step parenting, discovering each other's annoying habits and being together 24/7...It may all combine to strip away the great romance pretty quickly. Of course it may not, but we know how many of these sitches turn out don't we?
Indeed, my money is on the implosion and that's what friends around me tell me (those I tell about the sitch), but the reality is that I don't know. I looked at our emails when W and I moved in together and we had our first argument 10 days after the move (6 months into our R at the time) then the whole week was like that (and no step parenting!). It's a lot of adaptation. But still, it lead to a M and two kids... I can't think of it too much, but it gives me some comfort to know that it can't be heaven on Earth every day for them.
"2015". That's all I needed to read this morning to fail at my first resolution: not crying for the longest streak possible.
NYE has been an all-hands on deck celebration in my mom's family since before I was born. It's part of who we are. It's a time of reflection for me, more than my birthday. I think of what I've done over the year, whether I've accomplished something meaningful, useful. So far, just about every year in my life has been better than the previous one: love, career, money, family, health. Not so for 2014, which has brought upon me one of the worst life event for a human being: losing my W and half my kids.
For now, I don't know exactly why the number "2015" pains me so much. It may be that I feel I left my W and M in 2014. It may be that I imagine that, as I dread 2015, my W sees it as a year of well-deserved happiness and calm, at long last.
Everybody around me is cheering me on, but around my W, I must be the bad guy. I look at myself in a mirror as I type this and part of me is disgusted. I see the cancerous cells that have been removed from her life. She's been complaining about me to multiple people who have then told her that separation was a proper solution to her troubles. They're happy to see her look, act and feel so much better now (she's off her anti-depressants! no more IC either!).
So perhaps it's not 2014 that was so bad, but 2011, 2012 and 2013 where this cancer of me, or of us, was growing unchecked until it killed our M. 2014 may have taught me to make a less superficial assessment each year and take into consideration, say, the quality of my relationships.
2015 starts as the most unpredictable year of my life. Let's hope it's a good one.
Your wife's brain is being saturated by affair happy chemicals. Anyone in a new relationship is going to feel positive but its a biochemistry thing and at some point it wears off.
That's why we have to learn to make ourselves happy and that's what you can take from 2014. Its the year that mozza really started to learn what it means to be mozza so you can make yourself happy.
Regardless of what happens in your situation with your wife 2015 will be a good year for you and each one after will be better
^^^^^^^^ This. What is past is past and has gone by, the future is yet to be determined, you need to live in the NOW and do things for you and your benefit. 2014 has been a start of great learning for many of us and personally I would not want to be reverted into the former self.
Just today W called me and asked me in tears why I would ever want her back. And the funny thing is I did not have the heart to answer her that I did not want her back...
Go figure...
2015
Mozza, leaving the old M behind is exactly what is needed. If you and W reconcile then you need a new M with super improved Mozza.
Tears for losing the old is pain we need to do to get to the new. Sad but true.
The destructive things are needed for W to justify herself and of course W would say that!
My H has told every one that I am a mean nasty old ugly witch, with a bad temper and don't care about him. And more.....
Truth will out eventually of course it will.
Mozza is becoming a new improved deluxe super sexy, version of Mozza. Capable of a new improved M.
From my perspective I am enjoying interacting with the new Mozza, much more, he is more relaxed. If a DB chum identifies this then so much more those in RL.
Mozza, this too will pass.
Vanilla
Mozza I read through your threads. Some stuff was an eye opener and very sad.
And a lot of similarities to my situation. A classic example of a WAW and also a very good example of immaturity of a spouse that got lost. One that lost her soul. I don't want to sound religious because I'm not but spouses like ours lost the way of truth and faith, they lost their heart and souls and we need to pray for them to get back to the right path.
And we are powerless. They can only find their way back to the right path themselves. It's just so incredibly hard to watch them losing it
Vanilla I agree but disagree with you. Mozza seems to be an incredibly sensitive and smart person with a huge heart. And there's actualky only one person that needs to really change, and that's his W. While we have to save ourselves at the same time.
Everyone here deserves more than what they are going through. We are the ones with big hearts, soul, morale and the will to work things out and honor our vows and we see the good things in a marriage.
We are people who are trying to make a difference. And we suffer badly for it but we don't give up on the person we love. Again, I'm not religious at all, but we are doing Jesus' work here
And most of us aren't even asking for appreciation.
I'm glad I'm here!
Complex
Love your post, but want to correct your view of my post. I am not saying W doesn't need to change, just the reverse in fact.
But the one who has changed is Mozza! I believe I am being fair to Mozza when I say that it took a while for Mozza to turn his ship around and review his role in the demise of his M and a little push from Wonka, but Mozza can say it better.
Mozza was an apt handle then but not any longer, instead I prefer the handle Mozzarella that my predictive text gives me. A delicious tasty treat that has an Italian dash to it, to the buzzy ready to sting mozza.
We love our Mza and his refreshing forthright views, clearly his W needs to see those changes and that will take time. Having an A of any kind is completely wayward in my book and Mza is doing great on the boundary issues.
Vanilla
Mozza, I'm not sure if you saw what I wrote in Maybell's thread. Here it is:
Maybell, I know we hate 2014 right, but I think at some point in our life, we will look back on this time and think of this year like this:
- I learned more about myself, marriage, love, struggle, self-worth, my beliefs that year than any other
- I developed an appreciation for the most important things in life like I never had before
- I proved to myself that I can survive anything
- I stood for my values and beliefs, for better or WORSE
- It was the beginning of the rest of my life
- It was when I avoided (not by my choice) spending the rest of my life in a dead marriage. maybe we'll get the chance to repair it as a new marriage. Maybe not. But if you ask me, either option (restored M or an end to the M) is better than stagnation and misery. Of course true reconciliation is ideal, but it's not totally up to us
As much as it hurts now, someday you will look back on this year and be glad the veil was pulled back on your M problems, and you'll be especially glad that you DB'd (for your own sake as well as your M) so as not to waste the pain. I've heard M's can end in one of three ways: withdrawal, divorce or thriving maturation. Divorce, if it goes that route, is awful. But it does at least lead to new beginnings, whether it's a new M with our WAS, a new, healthier R with a new SO, or some other exciting new beginning. But take it from a child of a withdrawn M, whose parents didn't sleep in the same bed for the last 20 years of their M, didn't love each other, didn't take care of each other, didn't so much as hug or kiss for 20 years until my dad passed 3 years ago...withdrawal is much worse. It's impossible for you to feel this way while you're mourning your M, but you should reflect on this thought someday and be thankful you did not go that route.
Mozza, I believe you have a thriving future ahead of you, whether it's with your WAW, someone new, or a new adventure altogether. You have been a major bright spot for me in the last few weeks. If you can live out the man that is on these boards, you will thrive someday. And someday you might see 2014 as the most important year of your life.
Before I forget: I had another dream about my sitch a couple of days ago. Coming out of some market, I was supposed to get in a car with OM and his friend (I think it was a different OM than the current one) and my W. I looked at the back seat of this two-door sporty car and it was crammed. I refused to get in. My W came by, we moved behind the car and I told her I wasn't getting in that car. She told me she wanted me and tried to kiss me but I turned my head away. End of dream.
Looks like I now DB even in my dreams!
Mozza,
Sorry its been so long since I've checked in on your thread, but I have been following. I can fully understand why 2015 pains you, let me assure you, we are all in that same boat. I am sure this week you will face a lot of challenges and especially thoughts running through your head whenever OM moves in. But you must stop those thoughts as quickly as possible (easier said then done, I know, I do it too) and realize that no matter what W says to you, there is no comparison between you and OM. Especially now that you have taken the time to reflect on everything and as Vanilla called you, "the new super improved Mozza." I obviously dont know you in person, but from what I read here, there was nothing terribly wrong with "old Mozza" but now that you have had time to change and grow from this, you are a much better person, someone that your W would be lucky to have.
One last comment to echo Card...I've realized that this won't end until God (if you believe in God, I assure you, I have never prayed this much before), has determined you AND your W has learned everything he wants you to. You may feel like you have already finished learning everything that you can from this experience, but if God feels like YOUR W has not, then unfortunately, you have to keep driving on if you want your M to work. Only when BOTH of you have learned whatever needs to be learned, will you be able to R.
Sorry to get all religious on you, I'm actually not terribly religious myself though I want to be more involved. Just my thoughts.
Mozza was an apt handle then but not any longer, instead I prefer the handle Mozzarella that my predictive text gives me. A delicious tasty treat that has an Italian dash to it, to the buzzy ready to sting mozza.
We love our Mza and his refreshing forthright views, clearly his W needs to see those changes and that will take time. Having an A of any kind is completely wayward in my book and Mza is doing great on the boundary issues.
Vanilla
Haha. Ya I noticed the mozzarella thing on my phone.
And yes his stuff is very well written and goes deep, super helpful. If I was gay I'd ask him out lol because yes, he went through a good change. And that's our goals. All of us here have good hearts I'd think, and by growing through WAWs we have the chance to become even better and wiser.
I'm still afraid tho to become bitter. That's a danger. The way to true acceptance seems endless and we have to keep it up for the rest of our lives, not only through the S or D process. That scares me.
I'm also very certain that the WAWs will at one point in their life realize they they made a mistake, especially when we tried to DB with all our hearts. Question is only WHEN will they see. For some it'll be way too late, maybe many many years later. We can only hope our W's will realize before it's completely over. And we have to be soooooo patient, it's not even funny. We can't lose our pride either, we have to live our lives, we can't dedicate ourselves to rescue a single soul for the rest of our lives
Wow, those are some very kind words. I'm surprised that my changes are visible on this board. Many many thanks, Vanilla, Complex, TLEE86, Card29, Vapo, and jim0987. I've read your words several times.
Here are the things I learnt at and since BD.
1) Speak with my actions. When I catch myself about to say something about who I am, how I think, my values, etc, I shut up and demonstrate it. I enjoy it greatly because it feels genuine. It's the same with an apology: I make it short and I make sure to be careful next time rather than come up with an excuse. Also, I observe my actions to define who I am. It's more demanding.
2) Let go. Now that I've the opposite of control over my W, I've no choice but to let her do everything she wants her own way. It's been liberating. Oh, in the moment, I wish I could influence her, but over time it feels much better to have accepted things be done differently and that we get along.
3) STFU. On this board and looking at old emails between my W and me, I see that my desire to clarify and nuance everything got in the way. It restarted arguments that were settled, it dragged on discussions while we could have used the energy elsewhere.
If my W gives me as much as a thought, she probably thinks I'm like this either because I'm in a crisis (her explanation before she moved out) or because we're no longer in a couple. I realize it takes time and it's my fault for needing this crisis to understand these things quickly. I won't know how durable those changes are until I'm in a R, but in the meantime I realized that I can practice these changes with the people around me. Fake it until you become it -- I believe this.
I can't bring myself to be thankful for 2014 though. I don't have this wisdom yet. I've suffered too much and feel like there are other ways I could have made such progress, if slower. There's no way I will use such shock therapy on people around me to teach them anything important. So if I'm not grateful, at least I recognize the benefits of this trial.