Hello, all. My story is likely similar to so many stories on here, but I guess I’ll share it in the hopes that it may help someone else or – perhaps – I’ll get some help as well. I haven’t read the books yet, but they are in the mail to me as we speak and I have perused these forums a lot over the last few months.
My wife and I (she is 37 and I am 44) were – are – married for 15 years. We have two step daughters (19 and 17) from her previous marriage and one son (5) together. While our relationship was never ‘perfect’, I never once doubted my love and admiration for my wife and made it a point to show it every day through offering to make tea, pour wine, rub feet, watch the kids, talking, asking about her day and a great many other things. For the most part, I did all the things I had always heard that women like to get from their spouses; this was not because I was playing some sort of game or trying to win favor, but due to how much I sincerely enjoyed doing all of this things. My role, which I was quite comfortable in, was to be as good a husband and dad as I could be. I love my wife and I love being married.
A few years back, I hit a personal rough patch. I had some serious back problems (I couldn’t feel my feet for a couple of years until I had corrective surgery), then I was out of work for a bit, and last year had and beat cancer that the doc said should have put me in the ground (which started in my nose of all places; I’m thankful that I still look the same from the neck up…I had a great surgeon!). Through it all my rock, my inspiration, my happy thought was my wife.
Not to say that our life was all wine and roses. I had a habit of pushing my point too hard in arguments, not cleaning up the house as much as she would have liked, had some difficulty handling some very negative things my eldest daughter was doing (to the point where my daughter and I weren’t even talking for months…something I sincerely regret), I let myself go a bit and I wasn’t bringing in an income for a while as I couldn’t find work and my search was side tracked due to medical problems.
She wasn’t perfect either. She is the kind of person who keeps things bottled up and does not communicate well (or at least not in a way I understand), and holds on to resentments. She used to be very physically affectionate (which I always adored and openly appreciated) but that decreased over time. She also has a tendency to interpret words and deeds – negatively, I might add – as opposed to taking them for what they are. And she has an incredibly hard time admitting any wrong doing, even for something as simple as stepping on my foot my mistake; ‘I’m sorry’ is not something that easily comes to her lips.
Since May, just after our 15th anniversary, I had noticed that my wife had started to become more distant and cold. She seemed to be angry with me all the time and would snap and get loud fairly often. This situation continued to progress this way for months. Then I found out she was having some text and facebook flirtations with a few guys that she knew. I didn’t see much, but what I saw upset me. She claimed that she would stop the flirtations, but never really apologized, saying that she stopped these flirtations because they weren’t ‘right for her’. I admittedly became super clingy, to the point of following her around the house. This made her angry, but I was hurt and couldn’t I seem to help myself.
I thought I was doing a lot of great this at this point, working oretty hard on myself after some serious tribulations. I was working on rebuilding my relationship with my eldest daughter, I started to play open mic acoustic guitar shows, and I finally found a decent job and began to pay off student loans so I could go back to school. I thought this was a great time to kind of rebuild the foundation of our marriage as I was certainly in a much better place within me and was doing things to improve myself. We had been under a lot of financial stress as well, something I know weighed heavily on her and she was resentful towards me for, but I though the new job would kind of turn things around
We tried some counseling at this point, but it just turned into me begging for her to simply listen to what I was saying and her getting angry and closing herself up.
Just about 4 months ago, she told me she loved me but was not in love with me and was leaving in a week with the kids. I eventually came home to an empty house after work one day. As I have no family where I am (save one uncle who I am not very close to) I felt like I was losing my family (not just her and the kids, but the in-laws, aunts, uncles siblings and grand-parents that had been a part of my life for over 15 years), my heart, mind, soul and very existence.
She claims that she has been unhappy for years and that she can’t remember any of the good times we had. She makes it seem as if all we ever did was have bad times, when I can remember thousands of amazing memories as clearly as if they happened yesterday. I remember the rough times too, of course, but I remember so many great moments that I wonder if she is…well, a bit crazy that she claims to not remember wonderful moments between us.
I tried to give her space, as that what she asked for, but wasn’t all that successful at it. I was hurting more than I ever have in my life (and I have been through some really bad things) and likely behaved too clingy. The one hope I had is that we agreed to not take off our rings, date or have sex – with anyone - until we figured out together what we were going to do with our marriage. She did make some indications that we might be able to work things out. Then the engagement ring came off. Then the wedding band. And during the last four months we have gone from being on decent speaking terms to her simply being angry, stand-offish and incredibly cold towards me with every interaction we have.
It was probably a big mistake, but I tried to simply get our friendship back to see where things would go from there by inviting her out, texting her (about simply things like daily life) and simply trying to talk. Just about every day, I text her in the morning with a ‘have a good day’. The most I get back is a thanks, with no reciprocation, if I hear from her at all.
Admittedly, I got very frustrated (and angry) at her resistance to these small and simple overtures. As well as getting agitated when I saw each ring come off. Then came mention of divorce. She will barely talk to me now unless it has something to do with my son. Even a simple ‘how are you doing’ or ‘what are you up to’ is met with pure anger. I have grown to believe she hates me at this point. Or it feels that way, at least.
The worst part is I have no idea why. I know that we were in a rough patch, and she mentioned some things to me, but nothing that – to me at least – would spell the end of a 15 year marriage, nothing that couldn’t be worked out with some communication and effort. I never hit her, was never an addict (until recently, I barely drank over the last 15 years), didn’t cheat on her (except for a short emotional affair that never became physical almost ten years ago that happened during a very strange and convoluted time in our lives…and I ended this), did not hide things or lie, didn’t ignore her or brush her aside, was not verbally abusive (although our arguments were fiery at times), supported her in her school and career, and did all the little things to show my appreciation and affection for her that I mentioned earlier. I sincerely have no idea where all this anger is coming from. When I ask her she just gets angry, denies its there or hangs up on me if we are on the phone. In all honesty, I’m more than a bit confused as to why she left in the first place. I didn’t see anything that couldn’t be worked out, and she simply aint telling.
Maybe its me, but she also seems to be making me out to be a bad person – unwarranted, I think - to herself and her friends and family. An example would be that she recently asked me if I could help her out financially…something I haven’t been able to do very much of as my own bills and expenses have been piling up. I didn’t hesitate before saying I would do everything I could to help out. The next day I found out from a relative that she had gotten on FaceBook to attack me for not offering any financial support. She had also blocked me from her FaceBook that day. It was posted before she even asked me. When I confronted her about it she said that she felt like I had not given her anything (which I had…small amounts, but all I can afford). I pointed out that all she needed to do was ask and communicate and I would try to do what I could, which is what had happened previously. She claimed that I should just assume she needs the money and just give it to her. In my mind, all I could think of was that we wouldn’t be in this position if she didn’t move away. The thing is that she took the time to publicly defame me before she came to me or communicated. I wonder if this is a defense mechanism to make me out to be the ‘bad guy’ to make her feel better about her choice to separate or to fuel her ‘people’ to come to her defense and back up her decision to leave.
The last few months have been terrible. I hurt all of the time. I don’t sleep. I have been drinking quite a bit to dull the pain. I don’t have more than a minute in any given hour when my thoughts don’t drift towards all of this. I’m still in our house, and sleep in our bed, and the memories overcome me constantly. I cry a lot…and I have never been the crying ‘type’. Ive been going out a bit, exercising and socializing, but there is simply no joy in my life or in anything I do at all. I’ve become distracted at work to the point that there is now pressure on me to bring my performance up to par. Nothing at all brings me any sort of joy…not even my wonderful son, who I love with all of my heart.
I’m soon to begin therapy (which I can barely afford right now, but I sincerely need to do it even if it means missing a few meals a week) in a couple of weeks (it’s the earliest appointment I can get). But I would have thought that after 4 months some of this hurt would begin to subside just a little bit. But It doesn’t. Ever. Not even for a moment. It just gets worse.
I just want my life back. I want my family back. And I want my wife back. I really, truly thought she was my soul mate, my best friend, the woman I would grow old with, the last face I wanted to see before I left the planet. I have been deeply in love with her for a long time and – although I’m not even sure why anymore after all of this – I still feel that same love for her. And all I get back from her is pure loathing. Maybe I am not that bright and am missing something, or I am suffering from some serious self-delusion, but I sincerely have no idea why things have gotten to this point. I always have thought of myself as a decent person, having some flaws and quirks of course, but a generally good man at the end of the day… but this has made me question what I actually thought I was or am.
Like I said, the books are in the mail. In the mean time, any advice or some insight as to how this has gotten to where it is and how to work towards knowing the love of my wife again would be appreciated. I am not ashamed to admit that I am a complete mess over all of this. Thank you to any who read my hopefully not too long winded story.
Welcome to the board
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Welcome aboard.
Months?? What took you so long before taking steps to get help?
JohnJC - Sorry about your situation.
Expect that your perspective on your marriage and separation will have to change drastically. Your explanations do not add up to what is happening to you. If she left you, it means she wasn't getting something inside the marriage. It's more useful for you and your chances to reconcile to think about the things you've done to get there, because that's where you can act.
Start exploring her perspective. If she were here to tell us why you two separated, what would she say?
(Also, quit pursuing ASAP - she hates it!)
Hey john, sorry you are here. You have some very good advice offered to you already. Only thing I would add would be to read the sticky on sandi's rules. They will help guide you until the books come. Also, you gotta stop pursuing, that means no more texts, no more phone calls, no more begging, no more asking for assurances. You are going to be mysterious and let her come to you.
@Sandi: I thought I could deal and finances being what they are right now, held me back as well. That and a pile of self-pity too.
@Mozza: I've asked myself the same questions many times so far. I think she would say what I mentioned above: pushing too hard in arguments and trying to 'win', the estrangement of my daughter and I, lack of income for a while and maybe not doing some of the household stuff she wanted me to do. And maybe how clingy I became, as I mentioned above. Maybe, due to my health problems, she felt like she had to take care of me even though I never asked her to...I know that can be stressful on a spouse. There may have been more, but she never told me.
I own up to my own faults and damage I've done to our marriage. I'd give a great deal to make up for them, that's for sure.
@Hoju: I've already begun doing that in the last few days. It's really hard as I am a 'talker' and just want to reach out to her; although her voice pains me to no end right now it still comforts me at the same time.
Thank for the replies so far, folks. It is sincerely nice to know someone is out there.
I've been carefully reading over Sandi2's 37 rules (thank you for putting those together, Sandi2)and I keep coming back to #32 (Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.) a lot.
This, from my wife, has been something that has troubled me greatly. She has gone through great lengths to re-write our history, claiming she doesn't remember any good times between us or making negatives out of things that should be positives. In my original post, I pointed out how she made me out to be a 'bad guy' in a FB post even though it was an untruth.
I'm not trying to throw blame on her for dwelling on this, but I am trying to understand why a person who chooses to separate from some one who doesn't would need to go through such mental gymnastics. Maybe its explained in the books (I'm still waiting for them to come in the mail), but I just don't understand it.
Is this demonization an alleviation of guilt? Does it stem from anger or hate? Does it mean that the person was simply untrustworthy to begin with or is just a state they find themselves in? Is this a part of the unjustified (in my mind at least) 'wall of anger' I have come up against since she left?
Her actions along this line have hurt me greatly, and they are very hard to simply ignore (although I'm trying)and I'm just trying to understand where its coming from. Is trying to find rational reasons for irrational actions a lost cause?
Any insight would be appreciated.
hey John, thanks for stopping by my thread. Just read thru your posts and the thing that stood out to me is the difference you see in your past than your W. Remember everybody has their own perception of reality. I believe it was 25 who wrote about a trip she was on with her H, luckily I saved it so I can share with you:
So, no "why's and How's" if it's about a choice they made/are making.
They don't help US. Also, there are times in these ordeals that a WAS/MLCer will say something that revises the marital history AND OR
reveals how THEY viewed an event. It's not the same thing. Sometimes the same event really is experienced very differently.
EXAMPLE: I've been in the car with h/family on a long trip. One afternoon of it we drove up into the Pacific NW. I was the passenger, he drove.
For h the trip was stressful driving,worrying about some fires, and the traffic was heavy at times.
The kids were either sleeping or discussing their musical tastes, which is not of great interest to H or me.
FOR ME, the scenery was breath taking. I read aloud to h, which he requested I do.
But we had really different feelings when the drive was over.
Same drive, different experience.
I'm pretty sure many of us have had these same thoughts, perfect example for me is our family trip the summer before BD. I had a lot of fun, he said it "was ok." In retrospect he may have already been "talking" to other women, not sure.
I guess my point is, don't focus on what she is saying, doing, thinking or her rewriting of the past. Focus on you, moving forward, making yourself happy. And because I'm much better at giving advice than taking it, don't beat yourself up with all the questions (as 25 said why's and how's). You may never get the answer to those questions and if you ever do it will be a long, long time from now.
I’ve been running Mozza’s question through my mind; not being able to sleep leaves one with a lot of time to think.
I can be sarcastic at times in my humor. I recall my wife reacting negatively from time to time about some of that. I also used to be very opinioned…not so much over the last couple of years as I went through a re-evaluation during my cancer scare and a lot of the things I became fired up about didn’t really matter as much. Maybe that, with some fiery rhetoric, may have had caused some bad feelings, but I haven’t been that ‘involved’ in any topics like I used to be.
We both decided to go back to school, and we did. She graduated, but I was held back by my failure on an algebra class (I am TERRIBLE at math). I failed it twice and was forced to go to a remedial course, but we couldn’t afford it at the time (I was told my student loans wouldn’t cover it and it had to be paid for out of pocket). We focused on her getting her Master’s and I played support until that was done. Months before she left I had begun to pay my student loans, which were in default, so I could go back to school.
I also went through a period where I was kind of quick to anger mostly due to my frustrations at life in general as I couldn’t seem to catch a break for a long time. But that was years ago and I sincerely believed I had overcome those inclinations.
I can see where these things could cause resentment and a lack of respect. But these were situations from years ago. The last couple of years I made huge strides in many places in myself that I didn’t (and she didn’t) like. This is why her leaving – and the anger from her that followed - came as such a shock to me. I honestly thought that my efforts put us on more stable ground. But I guess, upon reflection, she may have checked out a long time ago and simply didn’t notice.
Even with those things, I was always affectionate, always emotionally available, always going (at least in my mind) that extra mile to make her comfortable, help her relax or get something from the store at 2 am. Like I said, I loved being married and enjoyed my role immensely.
I know that I caused damage to our marriage, but I honestly though that I had gone pretty far in repairing that damage and shoring up my shortcomings. I became a lot closer to the guy she fell in love within the last two years than in the previous two before that. I can’t say my efforts were for nothing. They made me open my eyes and become a better person at the end of the day. Maybe I wish she had noticed it more. Or that I could travel back and make sure that she didn’t need to.
I’m sure I’m just dwelling a bit here, but I am really trying to understand not just why she left but where her anger is coming from. Understanding that may give me more to work on towards reconciliation.
Here's more from 25's post, should've put it all in there to start. Good advice for you!
Sometimes the WAS/MLC will say something that reveals to us how different their experience was AND OR that we played a role in hurting them even if we were not the only cause.
A good response to first learning this, is "Wow, I'm so sorry I hurt you. If I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently." It CAN be okay to add in, that you did not know. But that can lead you to places you don't want...
IF they say something you really disagree with (or cannot recall at all), you can say essentially the same thing as above
But insert first: "Wow, that's not how I recall it all , but I"m sorry IT hurt you. If I had it to do all over again, there are lots of things I'd do differently."
Both responses accept that YOU would make some changes, (so the marriage would be better/different than the one they are leaving....)
Neither response escalates the discussion and both validate the spouses perception. And you don't feel insane or like a doormat for agreeing with something you do Not agree with.
And finally, just b/c you don't recall something they claim you said, or did, does not mean your memory is better than theirs or that they are lying.
@Lost: Thank you for that. I can only say that the wisdom in your words shines through.
I've always just been happy to be in the room, so to speak, when it comes to life. I take my joy from the small moments in between the big ones, which is probably why I have so many good memories. And why I can't understand why she doesn't. Like when she and I would watch TV shows together. I was truly happy to be there veg-ing with her and she probably just wanted to watch the show. Its all about perspective.
I have been beating myself up with 'why' for months now and, of course, haven't gotten any answers. I guess I feel I am owed them, in a (selfish) way. I am a bit resentful that it was easier for her to walk away than to find a way to communicate.
I have no idea how to make myself happy as of yet. I WAS happy and now that is gone. I am just working on finding some balance and understanding. And, I am not ashamed to admit, finding some way to work this out and bring my family back together.
John, I can see how you want to understand why your W says or does some of the things that are so hurtful. Making the H out to be the bad guy, and rewriting the marital history is at the top of the list. I was a WAW who did the same thing, and yet I doubt I could explain to you where you could understand to your satisfaction, B/c John, you still think of her being the same person she use to be. There is the conflict in your understanding. It makes no sense to you, right? It is not logical. Even after you do a lot of soul searching, you cannot understand her. Sometimes, there are things in life we never understand....and this is one of them.
She is going through an emotional crises. Trying to decide if it is a MLC or whatever is not the point. It is a crises, regardless of her age. She may, or may not, not show it, but she is experiencing her own brand of pain that you will never understand.....and I can't explain it well enough.
Years of stress, unfulfilled expectations, unmet needs, etc., is handled differently by individuals. She may appear to be a strong, loving woman.....but somewhere something broke in her. Perhaps it was more like a slow death for her, IDK. But she is broken and trying to find her way to some happiness for the remainding part of her life.
She doesn't want your help. She doesn't want to be around you. She is full of resentment b/c she wanted and needed more from the M than she got. Now I am not discussing fairness. That's not the issue with her. The issue is she didn't get what she wanted, and now she doesn't want anything from you anymore. Her feelings for you have changed. She is different now.
Her brain and emotions are overwhelmed with negativity about you and the MR. Maybe she needs justification for leaving, maybe she needs others to side with her, or maybe she is just so angry and frustrated that she has to have a target to aim all this bad stuff toward......and you are the target. Something caused this to happen in her. Maybe it will surface eventually, or maybe it won't. But you will not be able to resolve things until she can get rid of the resentment. She will need space and time. The fact that she is "dwelling" on it, means she is really, really angry and can't figure out how to feel better. Again, you are not the person she wants to help her.
People who really know you will not believe what she says about you. You have to realize people will believe what they want to believe (without any proof to back it up). I know that's hard, but there's really not much you can do about it. If you get into a grudge match, that sure won't make you look like a strong, confident, man of grace and honor. You can't help what she does.......but you can help how you choose to respond.
I hope someday she can find herself again. It is up to her.
A lot of damage can be done in the heart of a woman, and her H not have a clue anything is happening. Sad, isn't it, that couples can't relate to each other better.
@Sandi: Thank you so very much for your insight. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts.
If some of this is what is driving her animosity, that brings up a whole other set of thoughts and emotions in me. Regardless of who she may be right now (or even if she knows who she is), shes is my wife and my best friend for a long time. I love her more than I can possibly explain. If she's in that kind of turmoil, I so badly want to reach out to her to help make that stop. I don't want her to hurt...I've never wanted her to hurt.
To know that somewhere along the line I am the cause of at least some(majority? all?) of that hurt is a hard pill to swallow. And knowing there is nothing I can do to help her makes it even worse.
I guess all I can do at this point is to be the best me that I can be and be patient. Unfortunately, patience is not a virtue I own, but I can vow to give it my all.
I can only hope that she and I find a way back. I may have more to make up for than I realized. Given the opportunity, I would gladly do just that.
Now I have to find a way to create that opportunity.
(I see that my last handful of posts haven't shown up yet due to moderation, so If my responses seem a tad out of whack I apologize)
Sandi2, brought up a point I have been chewing on since I read it. It was about my wife's resistance to letting go of her resentment. Justified or not, she feels that I am the cause of many of her problems and there is no way we can move forward until she lets go of at least some of that.
I am following Sandi's rules until the books show up in my mailbox (they can't get here soon enough, but I just checked the tracking and it seems they're being shipped overseas so may take longer than expected...thanks Amazon). I'm a service giver and affectionate type, so these rules go against my personality grain quite a bit; but nothing else I have though to try has worked so I will treat these as the better idea I never thought of myself.
That being said, is there anything else I can possibly do to foster a lowering of the wall of anger I keep coming up against? And if not, how does one react to it to get a more positive result at the end of the day? How do I avoid speaking with her first when I want to know what's going on with my son?
I just came back from going to see my son, and brought a letter that was from my middle daughter's school offering bad news about her grades.
Wife and I talked for a few minutes. We're both sick, and I showed some sympathy towards her for that (no reciprocation, of course). I asked if I could come by to read books to my son a bit later and she said ok. We talked a bit about our daughter's grades. Then I left with a quick 'bye', without lingering, a somewhat uncharacteristic bit of behavior on my part.
If this were last week, I would have tried to engage her more in conversation, ask her what she was up to (in a friendly way...I miss our talks about daily stuff), gone into more detail about our daughter's grades or would have asked her what she was planning on doing about them. I may of asked her what plans she had for the evening and would have found some reason to elongate our interactions.
A question for the vets: am I doing this right?
You don't avoid speaking. You do nothing that indicates you are mad, cold, sullen, etc.
What you do avoid is initiating other means of contact throughout the day. Don't text or email, and don't call her. If she initiates, then respond. When yomelet home, speak to her. But let her initiate conversation. Let her lead, and you learn to listen (eyes on her as she talks) and validate when you can. Don't follow her around and talk to her. Be nice, but don't overkill, like most LBH'S want to do.
This is one of the ways you give her space and don't smother her emotionally.
I think it is real important you not try to fix her. Seriously! She doesn't want you trying to fix her.
If you will step back and let her breathe, it will do more about those walls than you may think. Stop thinking of what you can do to help her and focus on what you need to improve about yourself.
I just came back from going to see my son, and brought a letter that was from my middle daughter's school offering bad news about her grades.
Wife and I talked for a few minutes. We're both sick, and I showed some sympathy towards her for that (no reciprocation, of course). I asked if I could come by to read books to my son a bit later and she said ok. We talked a bit about our daughter's grades. Then I left with a quick 'bye', without lingering, a somewhat uncharacteristic bit of behavior on my part.
If this were last week, I would have tried to engage her more in conversation, ask her what she was up to (in a friendly way...I miss our talks about daily stuff), gone into more detail about our daughter's grades or would have asked her what she was planning on doing about them. I may of asked her what plans she had for the evening and would have found some reason to elongate our interactions.
A question for the vets: am I doing this right?
Yes, you handled it well.
@Sandi: Good to know that I may be on the right track. Now I have to make sure I am quick enough on my feet to respond properly and to be consistent in my behavior.
And you're on the money about the warning not to 'fix her'. Not that I want to really fix her, but more that I want to fix us. But I think I'm finally coming around to the idea that I can't fix us, I can only fix me. Only we can fix us, and we're not nearly there yet. No matter how badly I want us to be.
Thank you, Sandi. None of this may work at all, but this the most hopeful I've felt in a while.
I was supposed to go see my son to read before bed time tonight. I had asked my wife earlier in the day and she said they were going to watch a movie but I could come over afterwards. They were only half way through at the appointed time (she started the movie late. On purpose? Lack of courtesy? Trying to push my buttons?), so - of course - I wasn't able to read. I was only the for ten minute, long enough to say good night and she spent the entire time ignoring that I was in the room.
This, to add to my story so far, is the only other thing I see from her besides the wall of anger. Either loathing or complete, cold disinterest.
I guess I broke mold slightly as I instigated conversation, albeit briefly. I'll do better tomorrow.
sorry just catching up on your sitch....i was away for a couple months but now I am back..your sitch is 90% like mine....my WAW is having an affair OM, we are separated and she is ANGRY at me.
I will read the rest of your story and root for you bro..takje courage!.Rayz
@Rayzzz: Glad to have you in my corner!I just caught up on your threads and I see some similarities as well. Any input would be welcome.
Some friends brought up to me that I should get out and start dating. I've though of that myself a few times and, not to sound weak, but the thought made me feel queasy. There is no way I could be with someone else. I haven't been in 17 years and don't really want to be.
But its been months since I have had any simple romantic affection. To me, that was always a key part of a relationship and my life. I'm a huggy snuggler who loves to steal a peck. A romantic, if you will. I miss it so much. While I could certainly try to find it elsewhere, I only want to give it - or receive it - from one person. A person who wants nothing to do with me.
I've wondered of late if I am simply obsessed with what I can't have. I don't think so. I have always felt this passionately about my wife. Every marriage goes through its ebbs and flows, but I am sure there was never a time, not one day, that I could say that I didn't love my wife. And, for the vast, vast majority of our marriage, I have been very much in-love with her.
Maybe its the romantic in me, but I always believed that love was supposed to conquer all. Maybe it's because I came from a rather screwed up childhood, that I always longed for that to be a truism in my life. My faith in that idea has been shaken to it's core and may be forever lost at this point.
As I mentioned somewhere above, I loved being a husband and dad. As part of a family unit. I really enjoyed that as my life-role. I guess I wasn't as good at it as I had thought. But I was sincere about any positive changes I made that I made. I just wish i would have understood the importance of the things I didn't work on or work on enough. I guess I really believed that love would always see us through, no matter what. I'm hoping, somewhere down the line, I can check the box that says 'true' next to that sentiment.
I guess I'm just venting a bit. I've been running a fever for a couple of days and I'm not quite right in the head, heh heh. Or, as my Mother in Law would sometimes say, 'I'm just putting it out into the universe'.
Saw my boy for a bit today. Spoke with the wife sparingly. It's weird...just a few days ago, she texted me with a funny anecdote about when she had gone to pick our son up from school. I brought it up to her and she acted like she had no idea what I was talking about at first. Then she make a half-hearted remark about it. I thought to myself, "you obviously thought it was cute enough to text me about and now you're completely disgusted to talk to me about it." I kept my mouth shut, but the emotional roller coaster is exhausting.
Another thing I noticed is that she always seems miserable, for the most part. I though for a while that was because of my presence (she told me as much once or twice), but even when we are around other people who are interacting with her she rarely smiles or has any enthusiasm. We were with with a bunch of her friends (her idea..stacking the deck, I guess?)to take all of our kids trick or treating (we were the last married couple in this group, interestingly enough. The rest have had multiple marriages each and all had recently separated from long term marriages or relationships. Interesting choice of pals at this time). She seemed miserable the entire time and instead of having fun with her son she spent all of her time kvetching with one of her girlfriends or texting. And she seemed miserable the entire time.
I was having a great time with all the kids (I'm kind of a kid at heart, I guess) the entire night, and even backed off a bit to give her space to have fun on her own terms with the kids, but she didn;t really take up on it. I guess she didn;t like seeing me having a good time, because at the end of the night she invited all of the group back to her place. Except me. Needless to say that ruined my mood. I'm sure she knew it.
I often did things to get her to smile or laugh or get out of her funk over the course of our marriage (I'm a pretty goofy guy when I'm not completely devastated...I miss being that guy, not just for her but in general). I feel terrible if my assumptions about her state of mind are accurate. I want to reach out, but I know I shouldn't. But, as Sandi said, she doesn't want my help, doesn't want my hand to be the one reaching out to her. If she wants my help, she'll ask for it.
My son has also recently started counseling. After she left our home, he started acting up in school. I kept insisting that he see a councilor, but she wouldn't take him saying it was what I fed him when he was over here, or my attitude when I was around him (I always try to put the cheerful face on, but he did catch me crying my eyes out one time), or the jokes we would tell, or the games that we were playing, or that I was putting him to bed too late, or something to indicate that his problems at school were my fault as opposed to the separation (which would, I guess in her mind, make it her fault). I'm guessing this is a part of the WAW thing.
Even if I didn't feel the way I do about my wife, I still would have tried to make the marriage work for his sake. Maybe easy to say as I have always loved my wife, but even when things got rough I never left or thought of leaving. My inclination was to find some way to work it out. Obviously, i didn't go about that the right way, but at least I can say I tried. I just wish I could have fought the right war as opposed to the wrong battles. He would have been the first kid in three direct generations (on both of our familial sides) to have not come from a broken home. Even my daughters are from a previous marriage (which is why I believe they have 'sided' with their mom. This hurts a lot, as I love them dearly as was as big a part of raising thme as she was). I feel like I have failed my boy. And my wife. And my family. And myself.
Please don't get me wrong, I am not taking an "I'm right/she's wrong stance". Nor am I attacking her. I'm just laying out my observations. I really want to understand...I want to help..and I keep going back to one of Sandi's replies in this thread concerning the disposition of the WAW to give me my answer. It just seems like a pretty dark place to be, and I wish she wasn't there.
Man, DB stuff is harder than I thought. I haven't initiated a text or phone call in a few days unless it directly pertained to my son. I also do not answer her texts right away. I am trying to mirror her responses (which are still cold or angry, I'm being friendly and confident and not pushing at all) and not reach out to her at all.
It's so contrary to what I want to do, but I keep remembering that what I want to do obviously hasn't worked. I feel so anxious inside, so very sad. It been so long since I received even what I can misconstrue as a positive sign. Even a small sign would boost my confidence.
I know I'm supposed to detach, but I am having the hardest time with that. This is all that's on my mind every day, all the time.
The holidays are coming. I suspect this will be the first Thanksgiving and Christmas that I have wanted to sleep through. And I love both holidays immensely.
John I was with my mine for 25 years. Good times and bad times.I havent heard or seen her in over 2 years. This is very hard stuff. But you cant let the depression control you. The holidays accentuate the pain and disbelief of the sitch. I remember them well. We all do the same thing, ruminate. We cant get the memories out of our minds. The traditions the smells.
I understand the hurt, the loss. Wish i could make it go away for you and everyone here. Thinking about her and your stich every waking hr will consume you.
Better holidays are coming. Just b patient.
My 1st two holidays were the hardest. I love tradition and they were broken.
Dont be hard on yourself.
Thank you, Rick. I've been trying not to think about the holidays, but as I see more and more Christmas stuff go up in the stores, I find my mind going in that direction more and more. I can barely make it through Wal-Mart without tearing up.
You're right about being consumed about thinking about the state of my marriage. It been months since I could think of anything else. The only thing that distracts me a bit is work, so I spend as much time as I can there. But all of the things i like to do remind me of her. The places I like to go to are the places we used to go to so I avoid them. My personal hobbies are creative ones and she was my muse (I wrote a LOT of songs about her or for her) so my pleasure in doing that had diminished greatly. I'm alone in the house we shared for 15 years, which is full of memories (I can't afford to get out or I would). Every street I drive down, everything I do, every place I go has a memory attached to it. I've tried some new things the we didn't do together, but funds are quite limited so the opportunities to do so are slim and I always end up thinking of how much more fun it would be if she were there. Plus, I don't have all that many friends at the moment (my primary hang out people become members of her family over time), so that limits some of my GAL stuff. And I know I need to GAL.
Let me toast (with coffee...it's 6am after all): a better holiday for us all.
I know the feeling well. I remember going through Walmart and tearing up. I can tell you that it will go away. It takes time. Right now you need grieve so that you can heal.
You do need to GAL. There are things you can do that are free. I went to counseling, church, divorce care group, I rode my bike. I was doing 14 mile bike rides. I talked to strangers I went fishing. i got a 2nd job.
There will be triggers. It is part of the process. You may feel that this is the end of the world. It isnt. hard to believe at your early stage. But things do turn around.
Get a GAL plan for the holidays. Keep posting my friend it will help you
I hope it all goes away, Rick. Or that my marriage turns around and there's no longer a reason to feel this was (Wishful thinking? Maybe, but it's all I have to believe that this will all be worth it some day).
I have started to do some of the things you mentioned for GAL. I'm working out, doing nightly hour-long walks, counseling, and pulling some long hours at work. I've always talked to strangers, so that's nothing new, heh heh. I joined a divorce/separation group as well but haven't met them yet. I just find that I'm spending far more time alone than I care for...time like that only leads to thinking, something I'm trying to avoid as much as I can.
The loss of my family, as I sure you know as well I'm so very sorry to say, has left such a gaping hold in my soul. And I just don;t have anything to fill it with. I'm sure i will eventually, as you prove out, but for now it just hurts. Every minute of every hour.
Thank you, by the way, Rick. I sincerely appreciate your perspective and your sharing it with me. I look forward to reaching the plateau you found.
Good for u keep GALing. I do know how that gaping hole feels. When u are home alone and the walls fereconcileey are caving in on you. When you wake up in the middle of the night feeling out of breath. Your head spins all day. Cant eat. Cant think. The fear. The fear. Just consumes you.
We all came here to save our M. Many succed. Some very good friends of mine some who i met here are reconciling. Theres always hope.
She will not find u attractive if ur sad and depressed. A man cannot beg. It does not look good. (Im not machista).
Ps: the plateu u mention happens with time. You dont find it.
Sad and depressed is something I haven't let her see in a (short) while. The only time I see or talk to her is around my son. I am a pretty good dad, and know how to make him laugh, wonder and imagine. Something wife always said I was good at with all of our kids and something she admitted to not being great at. That's the only face she gets to see, and it's one that shows no sign of distress.
I was begging for a while. Not for reconciliation (well, a little of that....or a little more than a little), but just to talk and open lines of communication. I though it would be better for us all if she wasn't angry at me all the time and we could talk. This, of course, only served to make her angrier. I'm not doing that anymore. Not because I don't feel like I want to, but because it was - as I learned - counterproductive to what I was trying to achieve.
I'm living on coffee, Chinese food, beer and a sliver of hope. It's all I have, but at least I have that.
Save a spot for me on the plateau, Rick.
I wish I had more to report on the DB stuff. I'm still waiting for the USPS to get the books to me (I'm VERY eager to start reading them). But I barely see or talk to my wife (once a day, on average, and I spend that time with my son)and when I do, all I get is cold, angry nothingness from her. I have read a LOT of threads on here, and that seems to be a common theme for a WAS (Sandi2's replies in this thread have indicated that this is the status quo as well). This may be the thing I am having the hardest time with.
In my mind I wonder how can you have been with some one for so long and treat them like a stranger or adversary? How do YOU make the decision to move out and then act like the other person is some sort of 'bad guy'? How do you ruin a family financially and behave like it's the fault of the person left behind and get angry when they don't have the money to financially support your decision to leave? How do you even remotely have it in mind that the breaking up of a marriage will have no negative fall out on all parties involved and, when it does, you blame the other person for it? How is it so hard to simply say 'hi' or 'bye'? Why do I still want to reconcile? I don;t have an answer for this last one either, I just know - with every fiber in my being - that I do.
It hurts, of course, but it makes me angry and frustrated as well. More so because I can't point to a 'thing' and say, "Ah, yes, this is why." As I mentioned in my OP, I didn't have an affair, didn't hit her, had no addictions, didn't hide anything from her and so on. I'm not perfect by any means, but I just can't find that 'thing' that I can point to, that reason to explain why we are where we are. Every thing else that may have been wrong in our marriage was - at least in my eyes - all stuff that could have been worked out or had already been worked out. I just wish I had some answers. It's likely I will never get them.
As I was writing this, wife dropped my son off (she goes to work early, so I drop him off at school before I go to work). After she left, I noticed that his shirt was close but not his 'uniform' school shirt. I called her to let her know and to find out if there would be a problem with that, and immediately she got a nasty tone in her voice and let me know it was fine. This is an example of what I've been talking about. Such a simple matter, such a small thing, becomes an angry moment for her.
I know there is no understanding this, but I wonder what it is that's in her mind that is causing her to be this way? Why would someone choose to be so angry without real cause? It dashes my hope that we can ever get past this, moreso because there is apparently no reason for it.
I know I likely never will, but I wish I had some answers.
This is an example of what I've been talking about. Such a simple matter, such a small thing, becomes an angry moment for her.
I know there is no understanding this, but I wonder what it is that's in her mind that is causing her to be this way? Why would someone choose to be so angry without real cause?
From your first post:
I had a habit of pushing my point too hard in arguments,She is the kind of person who keeps things bottled up and does not communicate well (or at least not in a way I understand), and holds on to resentments. John, these things all go together. Your W has not felt heard in your M. She's not good at expressing herself to start with, and you apparently didn't listen well. You pushed your own agenda in arguments and admit that you don't understand her. When a woman shoves emotions deep down inside her for too long, they tend to pop out an unexpected moments. Like when you question the shirt she put on your kid. There is a cause, you just aren't looking at the right thing.
The other thing to recognize here is that anger is often a mask for other emotions. Fear, sadness, rejection, lonliness. There very may well be a different emotion behind the anger, and it would take some work to dig it out.
I speak from experience on both these points. I just didn't walk away.
Thank you for the perspective, rppfl. It is sincerely appreciated and very welcome. You're spot on as well, I might add.
Her bottling of communication is one of those chicken and egg things. She was always kind of that way. In the beginning of our relationship I helped her come out of her shell quite a bit. She's always had a lack of confidence and some self esteem problems. She used to try to do extra things for me, going the extra mile, giving in, because she though it would make her more attractive to me. I recall many times where I let her know that her happiness was just as important as mine, and she only had to put that much effort into things is SHE felt comfortable with that. I always like doing stuff for her, but that's my nature, I wasn't sure if it was hers and I didn't want her to feel like she had to.
That being said, I understand full well the damage I did to her openness by being as overbearing as I was at times. And I was. And I regretted it and did my utmost to change that aspect of me that was causing the problem...both for her and our marriage as well as for myself as I realized I didn't like that about me. More so during my cancer thing, I realized that I had been way, way to pushy when I thought I was right about something I believed was important. Believe me when I say that I did a lot of work on that aspect of myself long before she left and was deeply remorseful that I had become that way to her.
Of course, my reparation of my self in this respect went unnoticed by my wife. And she was justified in being skittish concerning this as well and holding on to her perception as opposed to what I had changed.
I am very, very hurt by her leaving. I certainly can point to numerous things I believe she did wrong in our marriage. Only a couple of things really matter in the end. But I can also point at a lot of the things I did to do damage to our marriage...I just don't see them as enough to make her leave without trying to work it out nor be as outwardly angry or cold at me as she is now. Of course, she does.
I know it sound contradictory in some ways. But people change over time. In some ways I changed for the worst. Then I changed for the better in more than a few ways(not perfect, just a whole lot better). I would give much to have had her notice and to open up to me when we still had a chance to do so. Or to believe in me enough to pay attention to who I had become (gotten back to) as opposed to that which she thought I was based on a long ago track record. I hope we may still have that chance. I would give anything to have that opportunity.
Gah...I wonder if any of that makes any sense?
So, what do I do from here, rppfl?
I mean the DB stuff - as well as any insights that my fellow devotees may offer - is why I am here, and what I'm more than willing to try as nothing else I have done has worked. I'm a very direct person, so the DB techniques go very much against my personality. But, perhaps, its my very personality that need to be conquered for an opportunity to arise to bring my wife and I closer. My ego doesn't like that thought, but the rest of me is telling my ego to shut up and go home.
I may not understand her anger, but I never said I do not give it credence. She obviously has her reasons, whether I see them or not. But I welcome the opportunity to understand it better through the experience of others. So thank you, rppfl, for your spt on observation. Should you have any more, I welcome what you may have to add.
The anger is to protect herself. If she wasnt angry she would be vulnerable. It is a wall that they erect. It is how they rationalize their actins. Your job is to not fuel that fire. You do this by not texting calling. You give them space. They will make mountains out of nothing. It is script that they all follow.
What do you do? You live your life. Make yourself happy by doing things meeting people. You dont sit around waiting for her. If you do she will notice. Guess what happens? She gets angry.
In my mind I wonder how can you have been with some one for so long and treat them like a stranger or adversary? How do YOU make the decision to move out and then act like the other person is some sort of 'bad guy'?
Who are you talking about? The girl you fell in love with and married, or the woman who has emotionally walked away from you and left the M? B/c they might as well be two different people. You have to stop thinking of her as being the girl you M. You'll go crazy before the holidays get here if you don't change how you to deal/think.
How do you ruin a family financially and behave like it's the fault of the person left behind and get angry when they don't have the money to financially support your decision to leave?
B/c she has bought in to the fantasy. She believes the lie that all WAW's tell themselves.
How do you even remotely have it in mind that the breaking up of a marriage will have no negative fall out on all parties involved and, when it does, you blame the other person for it?
Pretty much the same answer as above. When her mind is fogged, she can't see herself having those type of consequences. She won't let her brain go there. And if anyone tries to tell her, she'll just write them off her list and withdraw from them. That's how WAW's do. Anyone who doesn't support their new lifestyle, they're through with them. This includes parents, best friends, etc.
How is it so hard to simply say 'hi' or 'bye'?
I have been accused of being too harsh when I say some of these things, and that I should be more delicate with the LBH. I am not being harsh with the LBH, but I'm being realistic about the WAW. So, I'm going to lay it out here and tell you. There are mainly two reasons that I know why the WAW finds it hard to say hi or bye. 1. The LBH has no idea the depth of her anger and feelings of revulsion toward him. Do you feel the need to be polite to someone you have these feelings toward? Well, she doesn't.
2. She will not do the least thing that might give you any ideas of her changing her mind. Smiling, waving, speaking or saying goodbye/goodnight, etc. all indicate things are okay.....and she is giving you a message loud and clear, "Things are not okay and will never be okay again!"
Why do I still want to reconcile? I don;t have an answer for this last one either, I just know - with every fiber in my being - that I do.
Well you are the only one to answer that one. However, I have seen many LBH's who think they will just die if he doesn't get his W back, and he just can't let it go. Then.....she decides she wants to reconcile. As soon as she goes back to the M, his feelings change. He starts having problems with forgiveness. He begins having resentment. Whereas, nothing bothered him before.....he just wanted her back! So he gets what he wanted and then he discovers he doesn't want it any longer.
You see John, these guys didn't really work on themselves. They didn't follow the advice. Their goal was winning the WAW. They saw something as a challenge, something they couldn't have. They were willing do anything (so they thought) until they got what they wished for. Then they couldn't handle it b/c they had not applied the whole DBing. It's more than just saving the M from a D. It is about saving yourself, first. Then save the M.
Does that make sense? Sure you are heartbroken and hyper-focused on her right now. Sure the holidays will be rough, but who is going to help you the most? Who is going to become your best friend? Who is going to make you get out and do something, even when you don't want to? Who is going to take care of you? Who will never be able to leave you? I hope it is JohnJC. If so, then you will be able to grow in leaps & bounds during a time you never thought possible. You will become a winner, whether she ever comes back or not.
So, what do I do from here, rppfl?
I may not understand her anger, but I never said I do not give it credence. She obviously has her reasons, whether I see them or not. But I welcome the opportunity to understand it better through the experience of others. So thank you, rppfl, for your spt on observation. Should you have any more, I welcome what you may have to add.
John, you are in very good hands with Sandi and others here. I'm fairly new and trying to figure it all out myself, but I will comment on this, as it's something I've been working on for myself lately.
One of my own personal issues in my M is that I didn't express myself well, stuffed emotions, and then snapped out in anger an inopportune moments. I have come to understand that about myself, and have worked very hard at expressing myself more in the past 7 months since BD. I try to identify my emotions, sit with them instead of whisk them away, and then find the opportunity to express them to H, or someone else, depending on the situation. As far as your W goes, that's something she's going to have to recognize in herself, and fix herself. You can't do either of those things for her.
As far as why I felt unheard in my M, I have to say that some of it had to do with the "fix it" mentality of men. I would express something, H would offer a "fix", and that was the end of it, let's move on. If you do that to your W, stop it, let her talk. My H has other issues that probably don't apply to you, and it's not like he's made any effort to work on hearing me, so I have little else to offer you in what to do from your end. But one wise lady on this board told me that she and her X had settled into something that worked for them and it played out like this. When XH snapped at her, she asked him if he had an issue with her. That gave him the opportunity to say 1)no, and explain what the real issue was, or 2) yes. If it turned out to be yes, she would then ask what he needed from her. That gave him a chance to express himself.
Another thing I've really worked on lately is my listening skills. I read The Lost Art of Listening and thought is was helpful, and something I could apply to any relationship. In your sich, it may be helpful in helping your W feel heard. And if it doesn't, it's something you've done for you, which is all you can control anyway.
Bottom line is, Rick is right. Live your life. Sandy is right, make yourself a winner, whether she ever comes back or not. It's all we can control here.
Thank you so very much Rick Sandi and Rppfl. I sincerely appreciate your feedback, and thank you for lending your support and knowledge
. I think you all hit on something, and your words have given me much to think about. Too much, as it will take some time to fully digest what you all said. Not because what you wrote is incomprehensible, but because - added together - its a bit profound. And thank you for the reading tip, Rppfl, I'll look for it.
I did finally get the first book in the mail today (I'll be starting it as soon as I close my laptop). But if there's one ting I have learned so far is that i have far too many expectations and assumptions (and, maybe, a bit of wishful thinking). I'm looking too hard for logic in the irrational. I need to stop that. I need to work ON me before anything else and stop focusing on what I feel is being done TO me. Detach. It's harder than I'd like to admit.
And, Sandi, i don't think you're being to hard on us LBS' at all. At least not to me. Your candor is welcome and necessary for me. More so the last few paragraphs you wrote. I hadn't really thought about what would happen if my wife and i found ourselves back together. I mean I thought about it, of course, but not to the depth I would need to envision what the reality might be like.
I have no doubt that I would carry at least a portion of my current hurt with me to some extent. It makes me wonder if that would be even worse than us staying apart. But, upon very careful reflection, I'm as sure as a guy can be that I would be able to forgive and move forward. Because the family unit is the most important thing to me. Our reconciliation, should it happen, is far bigger than just my alleviation of pain.
The bigger question to me is, at the end of it all, will she be someone I would want to love? The person she is right now is not, by any means, someone I should even glance at much less someone I would give my heart to. But I need to find out for sure who she is - or who she will be - before I make that determination. I guess, in the end, I am just looking for the opportunity to see if it will be worth it. The big picture (past + present + future) says it will. The present, by itself, equals nothing but misery.
Thank you again, folks. I can't begin to let you know how much I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and knowledge with me, a complete stranger. Your courtesy warms me.
Now...I have some reading to do.
I went to see my son the other night. I always call my wife ahead of time before I come over. I called twice and decided to just go over in case her phone was dead.
I show up and her car is not there. I call her again and she finally answers. I ask her where she is because I would like to see my son. She says he's at her place with her mom. So I ask where she is to which she replies angrily that its none of my business. I should have just said, 'ok', but stupid me says, "I thought we could have gotten over this anger and be honest with each other by now'.
I go in to see my son and my mother in law gets a call from my wife while I was there. i don't know what was being said on the other end, but it seemed my wife was pretty pissed.
I screwed up, and should have kept my mouth shut. While her reaction still brings up the questions of 'why is she being like this', I'm angry at myself more than anything.
Yes you made a mistake. Learn from it and move on. Are you getting a life yet?
Stop waiting around for her to come back. She does not feel married to you anylonger. I am sorry to be blunt. I did the same thing to myself. It is very hard stuff. Sureal stuff.
Imagine your neighbor asking your whereabouts and why u arent home at a certain time? That is how she views things.
Let her go...
@Rick: I'm working on GAL. I just don't have much to fill it with. I'm working out and socializing a little bit, but my life was my family. That was my thing, finding stuff to do with the wife and kids or simply spending time with them. That was 90% of my life up until 4 months ago and I'm having hard time filling that hole.
I'm not sure that I can let her go. I don't think that I want to. Doesn't that defeat the purpose? But I guess I do need to at least behave that way.
Thanks, Rick. I appreciate the advice.
DBing is counterintuitive. It tells you to do things that seem strange. When I say let her go, I mean from your heart and mind. Not to forget she ever existed. The more you think of her and what you had the more difficult it will be. The longer it will take for you to heal. What we all do in the beginning is to cut a wound and pour lemon on it. It is not helpful.
I get it that you want her back. It doesn't work that way. If she suspects that any changes you make are to win her back, she will be very angry and you will lose any chances you had.
What I have seen here as to what works is to look and be happy. Live your life as if you have moved on to better and bigger things. Not to shut the door on her. She needs to believe that she is losing you. Hope that makes sense
@Rick: It does make sense. I appreciate your candor and words, Rick.
I know what I do to myself every day is not in my best interest. I've always been that guy to let almost anything go and to not hold on to the terrible things that can happen in one's life. I simply have not been a person to dwell on the harsher parts of life.
Until now.
I just can't find a way to push this stuff from my mind. It's been months and all my coping mechanisms have just shut down and have not come back, even in a small way. I'm in therapy, but its not helping yet. I know I need to find a way to put some distance between my heart and my wife, but I haven't figured out how to. I feel a little like a whiner saying all of this, but it is what it is.
All she gets to see is my happy face. I go over there to see my son, and I smile and joke a lot with him. I don't think she really notices as she just sits on FaceBook the entire time I am there. But my trips over there are not for her. They're for my son and I.
Tonight, she and I actually spoke for a couple of minutes. It was nice, until she brought up she has no money. I wanted to say,"well, this separation was your idea. Deal with your own consequences of your actions."
What came out was, "I'm sorry to hear that."
I left a minute later with a hearty good night.
I think I'm doing this right. At least I hope I am.
Thanks again, Rick.
Yes, it sounds like you're doing it right. Good on you to avoid the money trap. Helping her out would likely look as pursuing, ironically enough.
And we all feel this same conflict when applying the DB method. Our hearts a filled with the desire to talk about our love, feelings and desires. But it's the exact opposite of what might work. Nobody responds well to professions of love from people they dislike. And our WAS dislike us at the moment. So let's STFU, like you do so well at the moment. Our pain is evidence of how far we're willing to go to save our M.
Thank you, Mozza. I've kept up on your thread(s), and I know that you get it. Heck, all of us here do. STFU is the rule of the day; hard to do for a talker like me, but likely the best road to travel at the moment.
A weird update. I decided to go out on a sort of blind date. I'm not looking for a relationship or a 'booty call'; I am still very much in love with my wife and want no one else. But I do miss simple companionship and chit chat with a woman who is not a friend.
I had about a half hour drive to get there. The entire time, I felt completely guilty, like I was doing something very, very wrong. But I decided I was going to go no matter what; maybe I would make a new friend. Its been a very long time since I felt desired or in having someone have an interest in me, so that feeling would have been nice too. But I really wanted nothing more.
So, we meet up at this place for drinks and a nibble. She was not really my 'type', but shes pretty and seems nice. As we sit she says that she apologizes because she needs to leave her phone out as her 15 year old son has been up to no good. I tell her I get it as I went through a similar set of problems with my eldest daughter. By the time the drinks made it to our table, she had gotten a call from her neighbors (I really thought she may have been blowing me off) and began whipping numbers and business cards with the markings of the local Sheriffs office out of her purse (this is where I realized she wasn't blowing me off), frantically making calls over some trouble at her house concerning her son. Minutes later she apologized and left.
I've never felt so relieved in my life.
Not because there was something wrong with her (although, were I really up for dating, this would have scared me off) but because the extreme guilt I was feeling at being out with another woman was eating at me.
I like to think it was a sign from the universe that I should re-focus my energies into figuring out my marriage and doing what I can to make that work as opposed to looking for even a small bit of companionship.
Back to the DB book. I have more reading to do.
This is an excellent example of why I'm not against dating a little in our situation, if only to explore our own feelings about it. I've learnt something from being trapped into a sort of blind date by a couple of friends, and it looks like you learnt even more from your blind date. Now use that renewed focus for good!
Sorry your blind date didn't work out. I know what you mean about wanting a little companionship. I hope this all gets better for you soon.
@Mozza: Well said. Focus renewed!
@HPoirot: Thank you, but I am more than happy that it didn't work out. It was a learning experience and it taught me a lot. About both myself as well as blind dates.
Hey John,
Just my .o2.
Dating is a two-way street.
Since you're clearly not ready to be involved with another woman because of the freshness of your sitch, and the fact that you are still in love with your wife, ask yourself:
Is it really fair to salve your emotional wounds at some other woman's expense?
It's one thing if you're making it clear that your intent is just to make new friends.
(But then, that's usually not called "dating".
)
I just have to say that most of us who are going through emotional turmoil have very little to offer to another. And they are the ones who WE could end up hurting.
Just something to think about.
Not only that, but if your goal is to reconcile with your wife, being seen in the company of other women (like on a "date") is not wise.
It will cloud your feelings for your W as you bask in the ego-stroking experience of someone new who is attentive and warm.
And if your W gets wind of it, it could be the wind that goes into her sails and pushes her right out of your life. No guilt for leaving you now, you're already getting busy...
Know what I mean?
I'm all for making female friends and "taking names" that may be useful down the road if you can't R with your W. But I think most of the vets here would agree that "dating" is a bad idea right now.
What is a GREAT idea is to get involved in group activities with both men and women, so you're not on a "date" but you can enjoy the fun an companionship of like-minded people of both genders.
Just a word of caution.
That said, I totally understand how darn NICE it feels to be appreciated by the opposite sex after the treatment some of us have gotten.
While a little of that is a good thing to help us remember that we are not the rejects our S's have led us to believe we are, it's also playing with fire.
It then contrasts heavily with the treatment we're getting from our S's, and that is an unfair comparison.
This is how many affairs start. With a fantasy, some ego-stroking, attraction... but mostly, it's built on dust. But it feels good, so people do it.
I think the thing to do is focus on being better yourself as a super-cool INDIVIDUAL, and if and when the time comes, the ladies will follow.
That said, I have been compiling a list of eligible men should I end up divorced. But until then, it's groups only, and totally in the Friend Zone.
---(G)GGG
PS: But hey--that "date" was a real red flagger, huh? The SHERIFF???? Hoo-boy. Talk about signing on for a lot of drama there....
And Mozza, if you're catching this, I think in your situation, "a little dating" is a very poor notion indeed.
Please read up on what the vets have to say about this. I don't have a thread handy... but I wish I did.
Right now it simply complicates things in an effort to make ourselves feel better, and--let's be honest--hope that our S's will feel jealous and turn their attention towards us and our M.
I don't think that's usually how it works. If anything, if they are involved with an OP, they might have a twinge of jealousy, followed by relief that they are no longer the "bad guy/girl" and now they are REALLY free to be with their OP since you're obviously taking it so well and dating yourself.
---(G)GGG
@Goat: Your 2 cents is worth far, far more than that.
These are some of the exact same thoughts I had one my way to the date and all the way back as well.
Going into it, I was plain that I was not looking for anything more then some innocent company. I mean it when I say I want nothing more than to be with my wife. The guilt I felt tells me that these are not just words. While my wife may not feel the same way right now (or ever again), I know that I do and I need to be true to myself.
I am not even remotely close to getting into a relationship other than my marriage. I will fully admit to being very, very lonely and not feeling all that positive that I will be able to work things out with my wife. But i will also admit my greatest weakness...I'm very much in love with my wife. There is no doubt about that.
So, you're preaching tho the choir, so to speak. I hear your words and they are echoed by my own thoughts. No more dates. At least not for a long while.
Thanks Goat. I do appreciate you tossing your hat in the ring. Your words ring true.
Ok, John.
I'm glad to read that you are a man who is not afraid to confront his feelings on issues like this.
As a man, it's hard to admit that you are so lonely. Yet, that's where many of us find ourselves, especially around the holidays.
If you're feeling uncomfortable going on a "date" then you already have identified that it's something that is not in keeping with your personal values.
That may change, depending on your circumstances.
But I think for many of us here who have gone through so much heartache, one of our mantras should be like the Medical Profession.
"First, Do No Harm."
We don't want to hurt others while we're trying to make ourselves feel better. We are learning to transcend our emotional state and focus on more important, long-term goals.
And being kind to others is at the top of my list, personally.
--(G)GGG
John what is happening is normal and part of the process. The rejection is so great that u wonder if anyone will ever be attracted to u again. Dating too soon is selfish. That person may fall in love and u will definitely will not be ready. That person will b hurt. Just so you can deal with your own pain. Learn to be alone. Let the walls cave in on you. It will hurt but it wont kill you.
I have been there.
Thank you Goat and Rick.
You're both on the money and I couldn't agree more. I don't want to jeopardize what's left of my marriage by going on a date, nor do I ever want to hurt someone else. I get heartbreak all too well, and would never want to do that to someone else, not even a little. Like you, Goat, simple consideration and kindness is at the top of the list of who I am.
I know my pain is my own and that its something only I can deal with. Alleviating that pain has to be something that comes from me and not something I use someone else for. I echoed these sentiments to my therapist yesterday after telling her about this. It just that its very hard when it's omnipresent and never, ever seems to alleviate...even a little.
Like I mentioned, if my own feelings weren't enough to set me straight on the matter, the fact that the date turned into an absolute train wreck was certainly a sign. I'm not sure that I ascribe to guiding hands from the nether letting us know where we should be, but if there is then maybe I should heed them.
I think I needed the date. Not to make me feel better or wanted or less lonely, but to re-focus my mind and energies into what my ultimate goal is: the reconciliation of my marriage.
There's a small voice inside of me that keeps telling me my wife doesn't deserve me fighting so hard to fix our marriage. The way things went down to begin with and the way she's treated me since reinforce this voice. But then then I remind myself I had a part to play in all of this as well. I may not understand it, nor get how some of the little bit that she told me caused her to leave actually caused her to leave, but I know I have work to do on myself. I've been doing lots of that, long before she left. I wonder if she will ever notice. I hope so.
Wife dropped off my son, like she does everyday, so I can drive him in (she goes to work a bit earlier than I do and I like to spend time with my boy).
Every day, I say, "Have a good day at work," or something along those lines. One time out of 10 I may get a half-hearted "you too'. Today, nothing, as is usual.
She calls me back a few minutes later to tell me she would like our son in long pants today as its cold outside. She says she has no long pants for him and no money to get any. I see this as her way of her asking for financial assistance, one of the few things she actually talks to me about. I didn't take the bait.
I don't have any money to share. I'm pretty broke right now due to her separating our marriage. So is she. I wonder if this even registers in her mind as at least a tentative reason to think about working things out (or that she could have worked a bit harder TO work things out before she left) or at least not act so cold towards me.
She breaks up our marriage, treats me like dirt after the fact, and then expects me to simply drop money I don't have into her lap. Who is this woman? I just don't get it. It's pretty frustrating.
Hi, John,
Just my .02 again.
I think getting your son in appropriate attire for cold weather supersedes any concerns you might have about your W taking financial advantage.
Buy the child some pants; be the good dad. I know you're angry, but this should be part of your "New and Improved John". He makes absolutely sure his family is provided for.
You said "Our Son", so I assume he is yours and not some other guy's?
As for saying, "Have a nice day at work" and getting no/half-hearted response from her--quit doing it. She probably feels like not the best person in the world for a whole bunch of reasons. 'Have a nice day' sounds sort of cavalier under the circumstances; to my ears at least.
Maybe try to keep it matter-of-fact:
"Hey, W---I'll be at a meeting until six, then I've planned Spaghetti for dinner."
Just the facts. Or nothing.
You should have no expectations.
So even saying "See you later" can sound like pressure if she has plans.
Let HER initiate the "Have a great day at work". Then you can say "You too, W." with a nice warm smile.
Remember the 80% rule.
Let her take the lead and set the pace on day-to-day communication. If she isn't wishing you well in the morning or saying "sweet dreams" to you at night, neither should you.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Again, you sound angry. We all get angry. But make sure you don't make your son pay for the anger you really want to direct towards your wife.
That can be a 180 for you. Can you yourself go buy him some pants? That might be different... and would show that:
1. You heard her concern about the cold weather
2. You're taking care of your son's needs
3.You put the effort into shopping for him on your own, and even put some thought into what you would like him to wear.
Just an idea...
Focusing on keeping your communications at 80% of the warmth, content--whatever--that SHE gives out, will keep you busy.
Except for spite and anger. That you should NEVER give back to her.
You should always be polite and caring towards her, as you would a neighbor you're friendly with.
Think of how you might respond to various scenarios ahead of time. Good preparation and practice will serve you well when those unplanned moments of emotional interchange pop up.
The last thing you want to do is come off as uncaring about your son at this point, right?
Hey, it's a learning experience. Just be aware of things like this, OK?
--(G)GGG
John,
Could you please go to your "Profile" setup and add a signature similar to what I have?
Ages, dates, children, etc. It helps all of us keep things straight.
Thanks!
Hi John
just catching up with your thread, some parallels to mine sounds like we've been at this about the same time as well. Check out my posts as it looks like I did a lot of the same things you did at the begining, the people here are great as you've found out. The most important thing to remember (and boy do I try) is no matter what you do YOU can only change YOU and the relationships YOU have with others. You can build your relationship with your kids (again see my thread) and you can change your behavior but theres nothing you can do, think, say or otherwise project that can get you into or change your W's mind. Just work on you and hang in there.
And never forget sandis rules (said by someone who sometimes forgets all of them - DOH!)
Ed
First Thread
Eds Thread 1 (August 2014)
@Goat: Your two cents is always welcome!
I will get my son some pants. That’s not it. It just seems like the few times we actually have any sort of conversation, it ends up with her proclaiming something about her monetary troubles, like its exclusively MY fault that were under such financial stress. I guess my frustration and resentment about the situation makes me keep going back to the thought of, “Well, this is what you did. Face up to it and realize the fallout you created.” I guess her continuous denial that her actions had any negative repercussion on any one but me make me…well, angry. I’m likely too sensitive about it, as the denial is thick, but I can’t help it. But I don’t show it. But I do need to learn how to detach.
And, yes, the boy is ours. We have two step daughters (her’s from her 1st marriage; this is my first marriage her second). He is our only biological child together.
I always try to be polite and caring towards her. That part is not hard. I do love her with all my heart. When I say I hope she has a nice day, I always mean it. I always have. I just wish she would return it, even just a little. It just hurts that were together for so long and she chooses to be this way. I know that I should not try to make sense of it – quite a few good folks on here have told me this – I just wish it was…different. It doesn’t need to be this way.
It is, indeed, a learning experience. But I do feel like I’m cramming to pass the quiz sometimes. And that I’m going to fail it no matter what I do. But I won’t stop trying.
Thank you, Goat. I sincerely appreciate your perspective.
@EDZ: Thank you very much. I’ll have to take a look at your thread as well (thank you for the link). I’ve been reading the first book and I have studied Sandi’s rules (she’s been nice enough to pass on some amazing insight and advice on my thread as well). The outward stuff is where I’ve been focused; the inner stuff is just not doable for me at the moment, to much turmoil in my psyche, but I am trying to make it into something I can accomplish. I will get there, I;m sure, but its going to be a very long road.
Went to pick up my son last night and actually had a brief, but nice, conversation with my wife. No meanness or talk of money...it was such a small thing, but made me feel good. I did leave before I blurted out anything stupid.
She sent me a message later on that although I was supposed to have my son all day that she would need to pick him up for his counseling session in the morning. I was going to reply later on, but i forgot. She called and texted me back ad midnight to remind me again. I didn't reply...no to be mean-spirited, but because I so badly wanted to start a conversation.
They are at the appointment right now and I'm filled with feelings of missing her so much. I know, if this works at all, that its going to be a long road. But I just wish I knew if a reconciliation is even possible. My feelings for her, something I used to consider a strength and something that brought me strength, is now my ultimate weakness.
A glimmer of hope would be very welcome.
Being able to have a nice conversation is a start. Can't reconcile as long as each other are being mean and fighting. I just think a lot of LBH'S are able to stay balanced. They swing too far in one direction or the other.
The glimmer of hope I will try to pass along is that couples do make it through very bad times. It always seems to take longer than you ever thought it would. So don't lose hope due to whatever time it may be taking. There have been several to come back and report that it took a couple of years after they left the board. Mr. Bond's took four years! Starsky's was a long, hard process that would get better then get bad again.....before finally becoming stable and happy. Look how long 25yrs put up with her H! These are just three others who come to mind. And those vets over in MLC deserve a trophy for their endurance! Ever read Jack 3 Beans story? There have been many who reconciled and left the board. Don't give up.
Thank you, Sandi. I do see the ability to actually talk without her being angry or completely cold to be a good thing. Baby steps, right?
I just have my moments (many, many moments) when I truly long for her company. I'm not exaggerating when I say that since we were together, I was always happy to be in the same room with her no matter what we were doing. She really was (is?) the love of my life and my best friend.
I've read the other sitches you mentioned, Sandi. They have, indeed, told me plainly that patience and single minded dedication may just save the day when all else fails. I always had the latter and I am learning the former.
I did see her for a moment when I dropped my son off today. She asked if I wanted to go to thanksgiving with her family. I'm not sure if she wants me there of if she's feeling sorry for me. I already signed up to volunteer at a shelter serving Thanksgiving dinner, so I am otherwise occupied. Even if I wasn't, I don't know that going would have been the right thing to do. More so if it was her pity that caused her to ask.
Its going to suck though. This will be the first Thanksgiving without my family since we got married. And my first, ever in my life, that I don't really have a family to share it with. At least I'll be making my time useful to others.
Its going to suck though. This will be the first Thanksgiving without my family since we got married. And my first, ever in my life, that I don't really have a family to share it with. At least I'll be making my time useful to others.
Personally, I think you made the right decision, and I admire the way you have chosen to spend the day.
It will be better to give up this one holiday if it will influence positively in how the future ones will be spent. I am a strong believer in stepping back from the WAW. Don't be scared to let her have the experience without you.
Thank you, Sandi. You're very kind.
I'd give up more than a holiday for the opportunity to reconcile with my wife. Its kind of interesting you mentioned not to be, "scared to let her have the experience without you". This, in general, frightens me deeply. Not just with this holiday, but in general. She has somehow forgotten every good thing we had (I know, WAW...and thank you for your input into this, Sandi, it's been immeasurably valuable to me)so I feel like I can be easily replaced as I am very much the 'bad guy' in her mind. This frightens me to the core of my very being.
I wonder if there are times that she misses anything about our marriage. About me. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, I can recall hundreds and hundreds of wonderful moments...it hurts to think that she doesn't seem to recall even one.
In the end, it is what it is until it isn't. And I will not give up on my marriage, my family, until there is nothing left to fight for. I'm not there yet. Not even close.
Left the wife's place a little while ago after going to see my son. I think things went really well, but I am too afraid to hope.
As I've mentioned I have been dealing with a wall of anger and coldness in every exchange we had been having for months. Tonight, I played with my son for a while while she puttered around her place. I asked her how her week went, and off she ran into a ten minute run down of how her week went.
She seemed so animated, so into her story that I wondered for a moment if she remembered that she was talking to me. My normal way to converse would have had me interjecting a bunch of my opinions, but I kept my mouth shut and only said, "that's cool" or 'that [censored]' in appropriate places.
That conversation would down and I thought that would be the last of it. Then I asked her about a new painting on her wall that I recognized as belonging to her grandmother. She immediately started telling me stories about the painting and how she used to view it and the stories it would tell her as a little girl. Again, I pretty much kept my mouth shut and just listened. It was wonderful.
She mentioned her and my son were going to watch a movie together. I almost tried to invite myself. But then I said, "I should go so you guys can watch the movie before it gets too late'. I left a few minutes later.
I walked out stunned. This was the best moment I have had with my wife in a long time. Something so simple and small had a very profound effect on me. It felt like (the better part of) old times.
By the time I had gotten to my car, I was reminded completely of what i was fighting for. And how very much I miss it.
I don't want to get ahead of myself or read to much into it, but I can't help it. I want this to be a good sign so badly I can taste it. Needless to say this has left me very confused yet hopeful.
I want so badly to call or text her right now. But...patience. Baby steps. Caution, man, caution...it would be so easy to blow this right now. Baby steps.
Is it wrong to hope yet?
And so goes some of my hope.
I was on my way over to see my son for a bit, and the wife asked for money I had promised her. She had previously mentioned she wanted to go out for some pre black Friday deals. I did something stupid I guess, and questioned her usage of the money I was going to giver her and that it was supposed to be money she desperately needed and not for black Friday deals. She got mad that I questioned her and things spiraled downward after that.
She was very angry and I was very, very calm. But it still was a bad scene. She said that her financial troubles were all my fault because I was the one who made her leave. The distance from the truth in that statement can't even be measured. I did everything I could to keep my marriage together. Everything.
I know that I can't bring logic to the irrational. But it still hurts that, even months after she walked out, that she is still angry at me for things that seem to be only in her head.
Here's my question to the vets: we have no real financial arrangement at the moment. She expects that she doesn't have to ask me for support and I tell her that all she needs to do is ask and i will do what I can; her reply is that I should just know it and hand it over. So, do I just start handing over money? Would that be conducive to a reparation of our relationship of show me to be weak and unworthy in her eyes?
I decided to take some stock of myself today, to see if I have gained anything from our separation. I feel like I am lost and that I have lost so much of what used to be my life.
I have gotten healthier (although Thanksgiving week blew that a bit, heh heh).
I have more control over how I express myself. I always tended to be somewhat fiery and excitable, but have toned that down to almost non-existent.
I have proved that I am a hard worker after being out of work for a while. I was made to feel like a layabout for a while and I was never that way. I like working, it's integral to who I am.I believe that again.
I was (and am) made out to be some horrid person by my wife over the last six months, and I am finally convincing myself that's simply not the case. I am a decent human being, who loves freely. I am deeply hurt by those who break my trust (something I have not conquered)because I love so deeply when I do. I am supportive and care about people I like or love.
Although I am receiving the blame for the break up of my marriage (and I still have not heard solid reasons - or at least none I understand as irrevocably broken things - from my wife as to why she left or why she continues to carry so much anger), I know that I was supportive, communicative, loving, affectionate and very willing to bring comfort. I may not have been perfect, but I sincerely believe I was a decent husband for the vast majority of our marriage as well as a good dad.
The things I am working on are to work more on detachment and GAL. The last one seems so hard; outside of work I am finding it hard to meet people to do things with (my wife's family were the people we hung out with before. I found some 'divorce groups' around here, but they seem a tad cliquish and don't do much. My 'hobby', more than anything, was my family; that's where I spent my time and energy. I'm having a hard time replacing that with anything else.
I haven't found a way to beat this feeling of extreme loneliness.
I haven't given up. Although it's bruised and battered, I still have hope. And I love my wife. I think I may have forgiven her for the hurt and lies as well...but I am not all the way there yet as I still harbor some anger. Not much, but its there. I'm sure that completely forgiveness is very much possible. It would be a lot easier if there was some progress towards a reconciliation.
I guess that where I stand today.
First off, you need a financial agreement. Based on other WAW's and their stitch, she may think she will get more from you without one, but IDK. Does she have her own income? (Sorry, can't remember.). If it was her idea to leave the home, IMO, she should not expect more than child support. And, if you have the kids half of the time, that should be considered in that evaluation. That's why I think a lawyer needs to handle it, b/c they won't be guilted into things like the LBH will. Right now, she is looking out for her own financial wellfare. You would be wise to protect yourself. With a financial agreement in place, you submit a certain amount, and then it is up to her how she spends it.
My 'hobby', more than anything, was my family; that's where I spent my time and energy. I'm having a hard time replacing that with anything else.
People and relationships aren't hobbies. Perhaps you never had a hobby or special interest in anything that did not involve your family. Does that sound healthy or balanced? To me, it sounds like a potential setup for a man becoming co-dependent, which is not a good thing. And I can speak from experience of being M to a man who was co-dependent on his family (not me and the kids). You may not know where to start, but you really need to find something in life for yourself that is not dependent on a family member. It is great that you enjoy spending time and energy with them, but can you see where there should have been more balance in your life? I think one thing that helps keep a couple's relationship healthy is to have independent interest, activities, same sex friends, etc. (Of course, you wouldn't include anything that would be inappropriate or endangerous to the MR/family like having opposite sex friends that you text and meet up.). I think every couple needs to have other couple friends who are not related.
Thank you, Sandi; you give me lots to chew on, as usual.
To refresh your memory, my wife works and makes more than I do. I don't mind contributing to the welfare of our children (it what I should be doing), but her leaving left me (and her) in a financial hole that we are both feeling the strain from. I'm struggling to get money together to move out of the house we shared (which will likely be foreclosed on), but something (legitimate) always comes up as soon as I sock away a few dollars to move. This was the house we shared for 15 years and I really need to be out of here, for more than just financial reasons. I cant afford a lawyer to hash this stuff out yet, but I'm holding on until I do.
Maybe "hobby' was the wrong word, but I was trying to make a point. My family was simply where I spent most of my time and energy. Perhaps I did become a bit co-dependent. But I always enjoyed spending time with my family. Many of my personal hobbies were solitary things, and I did make time for them. But my family, and doing things with them, was my favorite and most frequent thing to do. It was also my main social outlet, which was probably not the best idea in retrospect. Not having all those things (school stuff, sports stuff, going to find places to play, general messing about) has left a big hole in who I am and what I do with my time.
You're right in saying that we need people in our own circles to pal around with. As my family - and my couple of more solitary hobbies - took up so much of my time, I didn't have the energy to pursue or retain my friendships. That was my own fault, and I am working on that now where I am able. Its just that I really miss that family time, and that loss left some mighty big shoes to fill.
Thank you, as always, for your input, Sandi. It is appreciated.