Divorcebusting.com

still holding on - 5

Posted By: u-turn

still holding on - 5 - 11/02/14 09:50 PM

My old thread is about to lock so I thought I'd start a new one

Link to end of old thread #4
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2503106#Post2503106


and it seems I am entering a new chapter anyway.


From Sandi2
Quote:
This is a major challenge for you. Perhaps you do the same thing in other relationships.

As a former WAW, I can assure you that pressure will not work on her. Training yourself to interact without pressure or emotional blackmail will be work for you. She is not going to work "with" you on the MR until you do this work on yourself.

Anytime the LBS is improving themselves......there is progress!


Thanks Sandi - I never though of myself as adding pressure to anyone, especially my W, but maybe I am just blind to it.

Anyway,
W told me yesterday that I should file for divorce and if I don't, she is going to. She is prepared to dissolve our marriage now.

This morning the same. She wants to proceed this way and asked me how I though I wanted to do it, through lawyers or an amicable split (no fault). She said that she is taking "the fall" for this. She says she knows it is her fault.

I am not shocked by this nor really upset (and that concerns me - after all my emotion, when the words are actually spoken, they had little effect on me).

I am just processing this right now.

I did tell her that I did not want to divorce, but I will not stand in her way.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/03/14 05:13 PM

I think she is starting to feel drained by this now. She slept most of the day yesterday after lunch. She is going through a lot of different emotional swings - she'll be friendly one minute, then storm out of the room angry about something.

I know she was looking at some old letters that I had given her from months ago. I also saw evidence that she was going through my phone over the weekend.

She woke up last night, and I was laying there awake. I said to her that I wished that this all was just a nightmare. She said that she did too.

This morning she as I was leaving, I said bye, have a good day and she grabbed me and gave me a long hug. I hugged her too, but left quickly after that. I was a little upset and wanted to make a clean exit.

I am trying to keep my distance, not to pursue and trying not to show her any negative emotions.

She is scheduled to go out of town to visit family in FL this weekend and into next week. I am planning things to do with the kids. I usually hope that the time away with her family will give her some clarity, but I've been let down by that before (no expectations this time).
Posted By: mindsin

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/03/14 05:51 PM

Seems to me like she's very emotional right now and very torn, and has a lot of self-pity and guilt. Maybe she feels that going through the finality of divorce is a way out of her emotional turmoil.

First, I would back way off. Just give her time and space.

I would prolong it as long as you can. If she wants divorce (assuming you don't), then let her do all the work. I wouldn't even talk about it, as long as she understands that you don't want divorce. If she's not sure of your stance, then you can make it clear to her next time she brings it up.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/03/14 08:40 PM

Part of me thinks that - this is actually good, she is actually feeling something, this is actually movement. She may see that this cannot work this way as a permanent way of life. She hasn't shown much emotion through all of this.

I have a feeling that she does not really want a divorce but thinks that there is no other solution to this mess. I could be wrong about this though.

I know ultimately I don't want to get a divorce, I am true to my vows, and I still believe that we can move forward.

I've said that I do not want to divorce, and I think she understood that, but that's something that I often am not sure of (whether or not I was clear enough when I say something).

I would like to bring up the possibility of MC with her first - though I know that would be a waste of time if she is not ready.
Posted By: Zues126

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/03/14 09:00 PM

Don't bring up counseling. I've never heard of any WAS saying 'that's a great idea, maybe we can work through our issues', then apply themselves and live happily ever after.

Bringing it up says you aren't validating her feelings of being done. It says you think she's the problem and if you can fix her it will all be ok. It says you're trying to control her.

Not how you mean it, just how a WAS takes it.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/03/14 10:31 PM

Thanks for your insight zues - I can see how she could take it that way. I thought of MC as a way to help us, but she may feel that it's just against her.
Posted By: PeterV2

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/05/14 12:48 AM

Best to just wait until she get's back from FL to see where her head is at. In the mean time be happy. (Force a smile and it will inject endorphins into your bloodstream.)
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/07/14 12:05 PM

It was a very quiet week. We have had very little conversation, aside from a little work stuff. Another week of her not doing much for the kids.

S17 is getting a little fed up with her bad moods and her treatment of me. I explained a little about it - told him not to worry about me and don't think it is at all about the kids. He knows this.

She did wake up the night before last and tell me of a dream she had about her grandfather, she was crying a little - he passed away this summer and she was very close to him (as was I).

She is going to FL to spend the weekend with her aunts and cousins who she is also close with. I'm taking her to the airport this afternoon. This brings back some bad feelings in me too (this is where I called her out on having the A, this is where she left to several times this spring and summer, this is the family that I love too that she is excluding me from again). I've had expectations that she would come back as a changed person when she'd go away before. This look of "are you better now" when she'd come home really bothered her. I have no expectations this time.

I am in a MUCH better mental and emotional place this time and am looking forward to spending time alone with the kids. I have a hiking day planned if the weather holds out. Some welding with S17, and a concert with D14.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/10/14 02:34 PM

I had a great and filled weekend with the kids and they have seen that I am ok. No moping, all fun (this is much different than the other times she left). I think they know I have been happier when she is not around . I was thinking that I should have some kind of deep conversation with them about their mom and I, but I decided to let it go and just have fun with them.

I am worried that I am feeling better and happier when she is gone. That doesn't seem right to me. I should miss her - but I don't. I want to miss her because that's what should happen.

She did text me and call me a couple times this weekend, just to say hi and I have kept my responses friendly and short. I sent her a picture of the kids hiking.

W comes back tomorrow night and I am going to keep my good attitude and TRY to not have expectations of a changed person coming home.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/13/14 12:04 PM

Since W came back from her trip, it has been nothing but icy. No communication, not even a look in the eyes.

I'm trying to keep my PMA (and giving her back 80%). I think this is different than usual too. I usually ask about her family, her trip, how everything was. She is not starting any conversations. She has not asked about our weekend either.

I'm volunteering to work at my D14 swim meet tonight - hoping to meet some of the other swim parents. I have usually stayed in the background when it comes to things like this. I am usually not the one to initiate this kind of interaction (though my inner introvert is a little anxious). I think it will be good for me - since I have 4 more years of high school swimming ahead. I love watching my kids swim.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/16/14 02:55 PM

I am having a bad weekend - not feeling detached. I definitely felt better when she was gone last weekend - I'm not sure what to do about this.

It seems like everything is a secret with her. To me that equates to lies (because that what it has meant before). I do not trust her and I cannot ask her to help me with that.

She wants everything to be just peachy at home - house, family, now holiday plans with family, but she does not want to commit to me.

So we will parade in front of everyone and act as if everything is great while knowing that it isn't. So to me this is all fake and I do not feel good about it.

She wants me to keep doing what I have always done with the kids, house, chores, work, while she stays so disconnected and makes her appearance for the kids and then back to her seclusion. She talks about future plans like everything is just fine. I don't want to just be the guy that takes care of everything. I really hate to sound selfish, but what is in it for me? I just want a normal life and a normal relationship with my wife and family - and I can't even tell her that.

I think she wants to keep it minimally together for the kids, but doesn't she realize that this is not a good example to set for the them? Would it be acceptable for our sons or daughter to do this to their family some day. Would she think it is acceptable for me to act this way - for me to live a double life?

I think she would ok to tear everything apart, move out, destroy everything - so she could just blame me.

just venting - thanks for listening.
Posted By: Sotto

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/16/14 03:43 PM

Hi u-turn. Sorry it's a bad weekend for you. Remember, you can't control your W - but you can control you, your boundaries, what you will and will not accept, what you can & can't live with.

If your W remains so disconnected, but also wants 'family life' maybe this is the place to focus?
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/16/14 04:05 PM

Thanks Toots,
I am confused whether to show her a great family life, or what one looks like without me.

Also - realized that my last sentence didn't make sense - I meant to say:

I think she would be ok (for me) to tear everything apart, move out, destroy everything - so she could just blame me.

seems whiny for me to say that again though.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/20/14 04:34 PM

I received an e-mail from W this morning out of the blue. She really hasn't talked to me in a couple of weeks.

"I am trying to make it work, I am trying to be there for everyone. I am trying to actively engage and show I careÖ.I am trying to helpÖ.because I still care enough to take care of you when you are sick.

I am frustrated, tired and donít want to fight anymore but cannot continue to live like this."

I then received another:
"You say you love me/us but I think that it is comfortable and what we know. You say you can get past it but no matter what there will always be doubt and I donít blame you. I am not worthy of your time or your love"

I'm not sure why she is opening up now, but I think it is because of our mutual detachment.

I'm not sure how to respond to this. I feel like I want to make a case of trying to work all of this out, but also feel like I should let her feel what she feels (though I don't know if she will just feel like I'm abandoning us).

I seem to have the same feelings as her. Just quietly fed up with feeling this way. But cannot get on the same page to work this out.

Any thoughts or opinions?
Thanks!!
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/20/14 07:42 PM

Originally Posted By: u-turn

I then received another:
"You say you love me/us but I think that it is comfortable and what we know. You say you can get past it but no matter what there will always be doubt and I donít blame you. I am not worthy of your time or your love"


I know I cannot control how she feels, but how do I address how I feel without seeming like I am pursuing and pressuring? It seems important to do the right thing now.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/21/14 02:15 PM

I responded later in the day.
"I am not ignoring you - I just don't know exactly how to respond to this.
I disagree with this though"

I feel like I really need to respond to these messages, but don't really know what to say. In the past, these conversations have not been productive, just circled back around to OM and then my inability to move on (which in my mind is just sweeping things under the rug).

I know that e-mails are impersonal, but we do seem to get through to each other better that way right now. It does remove the emotion.

I want to ask her what she is looking for so I can determine if it is what I want too.

She knows I have doubt and issues that I haven't had before - I would like to know if she is willing to help me with those, but don't want to pressure her. I'm getting confused again.
Posted By: Little

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/21/14 02:23 PM

VALIDATE VALIDATE VALIDATE VALIDATE VALIDATE
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/21/14 05:13 PM

Thanks Little
I've sent back some validating - but neutral responses. I hope to keep our line of communication open.

I would like to also tell her:
"I would like to hear any solutions that you might have to get through this."

and

"I'm sorry that you feel that you are not worthy of my time and love - I do not see it that way"
Posted By: CaliGuy

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/21/14 06:32 PM

Originally Posted By: u-turn

I then received another:

"You say you love me/us but I think that it is comfortable and what we know. You say you can get past it but no matter what there will always be doubt and I donít blame you. I am not worthy of your time or your love"

Any thoughts or opinions?
Thanks!!


U-turn

This line jumped out at me.
Seems there is some guilt there, and almost like a temp check of .. can he get over the OM without punishing me the rest of my life ... coupled with I screwed up and do not deserve to be loved after what I have done.

I agree ... you have to validate here ... and I do not think you are at a point you can let all your hurt out on the table as it seems she is just trying to see if she wants to do the work it will take for R.
From what I read here ... the first phase is DBing, and its hard .. but the next phase of piecing is even harder and full of rocks on that hill. Both have to be 100% all in before that path can be traveled. .... I think she may be trying to still test where you are.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/21/14 09:57 PM

Thanks Cali
I agree with this - and I don't think that there is a point to talking about my hurt. She is aware of this with all of my actions pre-db.

She SO rarely shows me any kind of hurt, guilt, or caring about temperature that it is throwing me off.

It just seems to me that she is fishing for some kind of response or action from me - can not tell what that is.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/21/14 10:50 PM

I am thinking of sending a reply to her message:

"I agree that it is comfortable to feel this way and it's all we've had our entire adult lives, but I do not see how that is a bad thing if we grow together.

I've said this before, one of the key parts of a marriage is forgiveness. We have both made mistakes and bad decisions in our lives that we have learned from.

I feel that if we are both in this we can work through this. I would like to hear any solutions that you may have.

I do not agree that you are not worthy of my time or love. I do not see it that way. That is my decision to make.

But I do feel that I cannot keep trying to pressure you to be my wife again. I do not want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me."
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/22/14 07:04 PM

I sent this through to her:
"I agree that it is comfortable to feel this way and it's all we've had our entire adult lives, but I do not see how that is a bad thing if we grow together. I would like to know your thoughts about this.

I've said this before, one of the key parts of a marriage, I believe, is forgiveness. We have both made mistakes and bad decisions in our lives that we have learned and can still learn from. We've made so many good decissions too that have given us so much.

If we are both in this I think we can work through this. But I do not know if you are there. I still feel like you will not let me in. I would like to hear any solutions that you may have.

I do not agree that you are not worthy of my time or love. I do not see it that way. That is my decision to make.

But I do feel that I cannot keep trying to pressure you to be my wife again. I do not want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me.

I know this is difficult for both of us and we both have decisions to make."

It's a bit all over the place, but I felt that I wanted to respond.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/22/14 07:26 PM

Hey u-turn... my opinion is you gave her too much in your response. Her text wasn't asking you for anything. She was making a statement about how she wants to see things. She is rationalizing. She likely also hopes you'll agree so she will feel less guilty about what she is doing.

I would say in future you say something like... "Yes this is a terrible place we're in. I can see how you can feel the way you feel."

Validating without agreeing with her view.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/22/14 08:55 PM

Thanks HP
probably too much - I've done that too often I guess.
Sometimes I just want to continue a dialog.

I doubt she will respond to this in any way thought - she rarely does.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/22/14 10:01 PM

Wow. I am just reading this and feeling so much of your pain... literally, because my life is so similar right now. I think, often enough, we are getting mixed messages because they are sending mixed messages... but that's just what I have always thought and definitely isn't gospel. Hang in there.... you are sooooo not alone.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/22/14 10:30 PM

Originally Posted By: u-turn
Thanks HP
probably too much - I've done that too often I guess.
Sometimes I just want to continue a dialog.

I doubt she will respond to this in any way thought - she rarely does.


Yeah don't look to continue dialog. I know it feels great when Ws are talking with us. It is a trap because you can go too far into the friend zone. More than anything your W wants to feel heard and accepted. When she says something like what she said... don't lecture or try to fix her. You did that. Just validate what she said. It tells her you are listening and accepting her as she is now. That goes a long way b/c you are being strong enough to accept her even though she knows you don't like the choices she is making. That is attractive. You just tried to change your W. Enough of that and they will punish you (by not responding to your flowery love texts).
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/23/14 03:37 PM

I should know this. I feel that I can easily turn this into us being best friends again - she would go along with this. I think it is what she wants.

If I held her hand she would go along.
If I kissed her, she would go along - it would stop there, but she has looked for small affection from me.
If I talked to her about anything but us, she would go along.

I don't want to only be this best friend & room mate. I fear the friend zone.

There will be nothing to validate if I do not initiate something. She would only talk about work. But sprinkle in normal family plans (which drives me a little crazy because it is just ignoring the elephant).
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/23/14 05:09 PM

I am learning this the hard way u-turn.

This feeling you have... "I can easily turn this into us being best friends again - she would go along with this. I think it is what she wants."

Yes our Ws would likely be fine with that b/c that is their plan. They don't want to hurt our feelings, but they really don't want anything from us except needed stuff like money, parenting, a home, and space.

We have got to turn away from them and get busy doing our own thing. I know this is hard. I fail at this daily and cannot keep doing this. I writing this to you to remind myself. You cannot talk your way out of the friend zone by initiating talks with her. The validating is only to not make things worse when she initiates talks with you. You are trying to fix this by initiating talks with her. Talking does not work. I know because I did that this morning and shot myself in the foot again. Just get out of the house and get very busy taking care your own business and leave her to her life. The best chance of her starting to admire and love you again is to STFU and grow into an interesting busy man.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/23/14 07:09 PM

I feel my anger building again - I am so tired of this.
I am tired of this game that she wants to play and is obsessed with "winning". (looking back - she has done this many times in some manner - I just changed me and avoided the conflict)

I even see her now trying to win every argument with the kids and she gets angry with them when she isn't winning. I know this upsets the kids and I see them trying to make her happy.

I want to tell them to ignore her when she gets like that- I have learned to not argue - she is obsessed with winning - I have been struggling with this for almost a year and I have learned to let it go. But I also don't want to cause change in their opinion of their mother. I do not defend her to them though. I will correct them if they are being unfair.

I do not see this getting better or lasting much longer like this - unless I put myself back in the friend zone and let my feelings fester.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/24/14 05:22 PM

Thanks T-mom - this came in today - you are probably still on moderation.

The mixed messages seem to be on purpose sometimes - like moving chess pieces - to control the situation.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/24/14 09:44 PM

Do you feel she is more distant since the trip to FL?

What happened a year ago that caused such importance of winning for her?

Has the A ended?
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/24/14 10:10 PM

Thanks for checking up on me Sandi-
She is more distant since the FL trip. We have not talked a lot - no affection at all. She does nice things for me every now and then - but it seems like it is making up for something she is guilty about. She is trying to make more of an effort with the kids lately though.

The winning "obsession" started when she started her new career. She was put into a bit of a position of power and that carried over to the rest of her life too. The OM fed this power attitude too.

I don't know the real status of the A. I have not asked and cannot check up on her anymore. She does still work with him and sees him every day. She does leave for a couple of hours each each weekend and usually has some excuse. She comes home a little later at night sometimes. There are no overnight stays or even prolonged times that I don't know where she says she is.

My suspicions are that she texts him a lot and is at least attached emotionally to him - and I do suspect that she lies to me and the kids about her whereabouts (small proof - mileage on cars, stories that don't make any sense).

I would love some insight - thanks
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/25/14 02:51 PM

I guess it could be moving chess pieces, or maybe it is that they are truly feeling conflicted at that particular time...??? It's sometimes hard for me to remember that the spouses have all kinds of crazy going on in their heads too.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/26/14 05:14 PM

It is hard to remember that sometimes. Usually my W seems have it all together and I'm the one with the crazies.

A bit of a strange interaction last night and this morning.

Last night she asked me - when is this going to end?
I asked what she meant. She said "this war"

I responded that I do not want to be at war with her. I'm sorry if you think that is what I want.

This morning she hugs me and asked if it ok if we talk over the next 4 days. I said we can talk any time.

I'm not sure what she is setting up, but I will let her initiate and lead the conversations (if there are any). I'm feeling conflicted about mentioning what I think would help our situation.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/26/14 08:07 PM

So, I am clearly new and don't know much about all the things you can and shouldn't say to your spouse. But I keep thinking about you texting her back, and kind of needing (wanting) some feedback before doing it. After the fact, people were saying that you gave too much in your texting conversation with her... so... if you don't get feedback in time, I hope that will help... even a little...
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/26/14 08:16 PM

In my sitch... my W texted me... "will you pick up the phone if I call in the next 10 minutes?"

She had been texting and calling me alot after a set a boundary with her.

Vets here suggested I respond... "What is the nature of your call?"

That hit my W hard. She mentioned it when she called as being so businesslike. A big change in our communications that set the tone for everything after that... We are not friends while you're in an A.

If she texts you about your talk.. you could use something like that.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/26/14 09:22 PM

wow.... that is ice cool...
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/26/14 09:25 PM

HP... any advise on how on earth to still live together???
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/26/14 11:55 PM

The key is to detach from all of the reminders of the negative and only focus on the positive.

I still have major troubles with this. I am still reminded of the problems by the music she plays, the times she disappears, and the lies she tells.

I should know to ignore these things but it is difficult. I try to stop all of these thoughts, but sometimes it is overwhelming.

I'm not exactly sure how this will ever work out. I know I have learned much about myself and relationships. I know I will be a better person in the end. But I do not know if I will get what I want.
Posted By: HPoirot

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/27/14 12:52 AM

Originally Posted By: T-Mom
HP... any advise on how on earth to still live together???


Hello T-Mom. I'm very very sorry that you are here.

I did look at your sitch. That is awful what your H said to you about seeing other people. Awful and wrong.

I have made many many mistakes since my BD. Mostly b/c of my anger. At my W for not dropping her OM relationship (even though I understand as I had my own A). But I'm finding I'm angry more and more at myself too. She gave me so many opportunities to fix this and I was clueless.

To your question... living with the WAS you've got to be your best self in front of him. More honest... more strong... more positive... more happy... more poised... more together... more patient... more loving... more you. This is likely the best opportunity you'll ever have to break through to your best self and your best life. I've always known pain is the best motivator. I thought I had experienced that before. I had no idea until now.

So, in my very humble opinion, I suggest to create a written fantastic vision for your life a year from now. Where YOU want to be with or without WAS. Make some short term plans to get there. Start moving towards them today. Make a small goal to get there everyday. Small easy successes so you can start to feel good right away. Keep your mind there as much as you can and keep going. Stay present by looking forward and working to get there. Just keep busy on improving your life. Give it a purpose. GAL, 180s, any complains you've heard from WAS... write then down and then work on them daily.

Then, when you interact with your WAS, be upbeat as much as possible. Act as if every interaction will be pleasant even enjoyable. Be enjoyable b/c you have a life to look forward to... you have a vision. If WAS is down and crying... listen but don't comfort. Stand away from arms length of WAS, lean back not forward, keep a poker face, and end the conversation early on your terms. If WAS is being cruel... calmly and kindly let him know you see he's upset and you won't be treated that way. Then walk away. If WAS is kind... politely accept the kindness. Always work to feel relaxed and to expect nothing from WAS. That is the worst... when WAS senses you expect something you can get crushed. Please don't get crushed. And, don't be rude. Cheerfully say good morning and expect nothing in return. Warmly say good night and expect nothing in return. Politely don't help with anything they can't do themselves. If they ask, warmly be clear you're not going to do what they ask b/c it's not appropriate. Separation from you is what he wants... lovingly give it to him.

Most important... do not talk about your R or M! Make more light, fun conversation. Find things to talk about. DO something interesting in your day to talk about. Be interesting for yourself and he may ask you about what your doing. Don't complain.... but if something he does bothers you... ask here how to set that specific boundary and then bravely do it. Don't tolerate talk about OW. Ask here what too say and then say it.

I know. All this seems impossible. I screw up everyday. I hate living like this. I miss my W. She gives me nothing when just a few weeks ago things seemed different. I would give anything for this to change.

So I have to give her what she wants. I have to put my needs and my M on the shelf and be the strong one for me, her, and my family. I have no guarantees my M will renew. If I'm honest... I can admit nothing in life is guaranteed. Now I just have to live with that fact and fear in my face every single day.

Do your best. Take care of yourself. Listen to to vets here. They are wonderful people. Come here for support and strength when you need it. Help others when you can. Let your anger and pain out here if you need to. Work hard not to show your pain to your H. Keep going. It will get better.

It will.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/27/14 01:28 AM

THAT was such an emotional letter for me to read, so I am sure it was even more difficult to write it. Thank you. It is clear to me that you know what I am going through and I can't express to you my gratitude at just knowing that.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/28/14 03:28 PM

HP and U-Turn.... how are you guys doing?
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/28/14 04:28 PM

T-Mom
Thanks for checking up on me.

The holidays are going to be a definite struggle. In my mind this may be our last together - I am giving in and accepting this a little. this is very painful to me, but I do not express this to W - I wish I could, but I don't think it will be productive.

Had dinner at home with the W and kids and it went pretty well. I try to stay as positive as possible

S20 came home for dinner yesterday which was a surprise. Our interaction has not been very good for the last couple of months and he was going to stay away. He didn't stay here, but it was great that he decided to come home - I think he is coming here again this evening.

W hugged me a couple times yesterday and was crying a couple times. She even gave me a kiss me before she left shopping w/ d14. She has not done that (kissed/hugged) in a very long time. The hugs and kiss all seemed awkward - like we are strangers - and I am scared by this.

I actually hope for a serious talk with W this weekend. I really just want to lay all the cards on the table and figure this out. I don't think that I am going to try to initiate this or remind W that she wanted to talk, but I hope she is thinking of it. The family time seems to be affecting her a little.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/28/14 05:07 PM

U-turn, when she point blank asks you when the war will be over or how long this is going to continue, I don't think that is the time to give vague answers. I think you were trying to avoid a R talk and made an attempt to validate her feelings. But speaking as a woman, I think it may have made you appear more like you were sticking your head in the sand. But I wasn't there, so I'm not sure.

Personally, I think her question presented a perfect opportunity to hit her with a truth dart. W: "When is this going to be over"? You: "At the moment, I would say when you decide to really commit to our marriage......or I get tired of waiting".

I forget, did she know you found out about OM? Did she say she would end it?

Unless she is willing to work with you on a transparency plan and she will commit to the MR, there is no point in carrying the conversation any further. In fact, it may be more effective if you got up to do something, instead of engaging in her complaints about you or her wanting a S or D. If she says she does, do not try to persuade her otherwise. Just let it go.

Be prepared (now) with an answer to these type of questions. They need to short, to the point, manly answers, instead of a needy, pleading question to her. The minute she starts with the same old stuff (which is basically complaints about you), hold up your hand in the "stop" position and tell her, "Just don't go there again. We both know the truth and I won't engage in another one of these sessions unless you are willing to discuss something other than my faults".

Look, she is willing to live like roommates until a decision is made about her and OM's future. As long as she believes you will passively accept living in those conditions, do you really think she will suddenly be attracted to you and choose you over OM?

A WW has to experience a personal loss (one you probably would not know) before she will begin feeling regrets for her A. It has to be serious enough to cause her SERIOUS doubt that OM is worth her loss. It is not your job to figure out what that particular loss may be. However, it is your job to not enable her to continue with a wayward lifestyle.

Based on your resent post, it sounds as if something did happen in FL, if she has been more distant. But without proof, you simply don't know. If she is not spending more time away from home/work than a couple of hours over the weekend, I would be tempted to think it is not a PA at this time. I don't know anything (or can't remember) the details of OM. As you said, she's still emotionally connected to him. For a woman, that is very powerful. Even after I decided to end all contact with my OM, I thought I would never shake him out of my head. But I did! However, I could not begin working on my M until I was completely over fantasy thoughts of OM.

And let me add this about the transparency. If I had not been on this board, reading about it, I would never have agreed to one. B/c I would have felt like most WAW's feel about it. So, unless it is explained to her that it is to help her and you until she gets through the withdrawal stages of the A, I would not bring it up until she has said she will commit or asks you what it will take to work things out. That JMHO.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/28/14 05:29 PM

U-Turn... Visiting with your son must have been great, especially when it was a surprise. I love what Sandi2 wrote up there...

"Be prepared (now) with an answer to these type of questions. They need to short, to the point, manly answers, instead of a needy, pleading question to her. The minute she starts with the same old stuff (which is basically complaints about you), hold up your hand in the "stop" position and tell her, "Just don't go there again. We both know the truth and I won't engage in another one of these sessions unless you are willing to discuss something other than my faults".

That sound like something that would feel empowering to say. She's good!!!
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/28/14 05:37 PM

Thanks Sandi!
I know I missed the opportunity for the truth dart - and I am not afraid of the ramifications of it. I want to do what's best but I squandered the moment.

She does know that I know about the A. She doesn't deny that it happened. Her claim is that it happened - not happening. I know it it still at least an EA and may be a PA. She has said, when pressed by me, that she is trying to end it. We haven't talked about the reality of the EA keeping a wall between us.

She does not yell at me. She does not complain about me (ever). When we have talked she goes back to very old complaints. I really have to be pushing for her to bring it up - It seems to be her only defense.

So what I see is this:

Look, she is willing to live like roommates until a decision is made about her and OM's future. As long as she believes you will passively accept living in those conditions, do you really think she will suddenly be attracted to you and choose you over OM?

A WW has to experience a personal loss (one you probably would not know) before she will begin feeling regrets for her A. It has to be serious enough to cause her SERIOUS doubt that OM is worth her loss. It is not your job to figure out what that particular loss may be. However, it is your job to not enable her to continue with a wayward lifestyle.


I need to hit her with this truth dart but am unsure about the best way to do it. It sometimes seems like she is on the verge of changing - but I don't know why I feel that way.

She has told me that there is no future with OM and they both know it. But that does not change the EA. I wish I could tell her what I have learned about affairs and addictions.

Sorry if I wrote something that misled you, but her trip to FL was to see family, I know this is true and I know it was not with OM. So I was hoping the time away would help her figure things out, but not much has changed besides me being more detached which I think makes her more detached.

Transparency - we have not talked about it - she hasn't said she wants to do what it takes.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/28/14 07:02 PM

It was great to see him - almost brought tears to my eyes when he walked through the door. Whether he knows it or not, he has also helped me through this. I hope to help him with his troubles.

We didn't get to talk much - he only stayed for about 2 hours. He and his brother & sister were joking and wrestling - so I didn't want to interrupt that. I know my W was moved too.

Also
I need to work on my quick responses. I often miss the moment trying to think of the best thing to say. I have done this so much in my life.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 11/28/14 07:33 PM

I have done that a lot, too. I do think you should let her initiate a conversation, though... which means a little memorization on your part...
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/02/14 05:07 PM

I'm at a bit of a loss right now as to what to do - and if I could get some input maybe I can figure this out.

she is frustrated with me and my distrust.
She asked me (text) if I went through a bag of hers that she had purchased some lingerie. I was teaching and couldn't respond.

Here's how it went:
w:did you go through my VS bag
me:I did see it
w:that was meant for us until our blowout
w:oh well
w:not that you would believe me anyway
w:let's move forward and figure out what we need to do
w:you slept ok last night but we cannot keep doing this
me:I know W
w: you know what?
w: have a good day
w: I don't like where we are at...but I cannot change it
me (1 hour later): I am really sorry you feel that way. I don't like it either.
me: I know this is upsetting
me (big mistake?): I would like to actively work together on this.

That's it. I don't know what to say if anything needs to be said. I do have major trust issues with her - I want to work toward a solid R again. I am tired of being this way.

Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/02/14 05:27 PM

the blowout she mentioned was a couple of conversations (some slightly heated where she was getting insulting) that we had over the weekend. We could not get anywhere except that neither of us liked how things are and we need to do something about it.

Neither of us want to D, but she has no confidence in us. And I have very little trust and that does not seem to be improving.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/02/14 06:48 PM

Hey, U-turn. Again, I am by no means an expert, but those texts from her make you look like you are in control. She is the one with all the words there, and I think you said what you needed to say and put the ball in her court.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/02/14 10:09 PM

It is a little unusual that she would try to say so many words and try with so many texts.

I was short with her because of circumstances. I do not feel in control nor detached. Kind of panicky right now and I don't even know why.

I am somewhat accepting that my M is over and should just move on to restore sanity. I have a feeling she will try to be nice to me to make this one instance go away. To me that just covers up and doesn't deal with the real troubles - I have seen this pattern.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/03/14 12:34 AM

The best advice I can give you is not to do anything right now. Wait until you hear from someone on here that has more knowledge and experience than I. I am going through some hell of my own right now, so maybe we can hang in there together...
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/03/14 05:00 PM

Thanks T-Mom. I am sorry that you are here. Hang in there.

Nothing was mentioned about this conversation last night or this morning. This is not unusual, she will sweep it away and I will not bring it up and the cycle continues.

Does she think that I have forgotten about this or anything this year?

I don't think it is prudent to revisit and talk about all of the things that make me not trust her - it seems to be a score card. I am not looking to be re-payed or win anything. I just want to start again - but I know this is up to her. She seems to be looking for a script from me (what do you want me to say?). I don't want to tell her because she will repeat it back to me and I probably won't believe it. I don't know how to rebuild trust.

I was at my kids swim meet last night (I love watching them swim), when I got home she had a story from work and she went to bed - she looked exhausted. I did some work and went to bed a little later. I am so exhausted by this.

She is planning on leaving her job on Mar 1 to go to another facility. This is a move away from OM, but that is not what is driving the change. I know that this does not solve anything, but I certainly couldn't hurt. I wish it could happen quicker.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/03/14 05:43 PM

I think you are right about the script, but let her lead the conversations. You can't go backwards, so revisiting doesn't sound like a good plan. I also think that the onus is on her to start building trust, right? I mean, all you can do is be open to it, given that she is trustworthy. That's the key... The trustworthiness part is on her.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/05/14 08:46 PM

I'm spiraling a little today. I took some time off today from my teaching job to work on projects for my business and cannot get myself to focus.

This morning I told W that I wasn't going in to school today because I had some meetings. I was trying to be a little mysterious with it - even though it hasn't gone well with that plan in the past. She was agitated by this (that I didn't mention this before - even though it has no affect on her). I knew it would bother her, but didn't care. I still made the kids lunches and took them to school.

I received a text from her later -
w:we are not getting to a point that we can open up to each other. you do not talk to me.
me (way too much and big step back frown ): I would love for our lives and marriage to be healthy and normal again. I do not like communicating or being this way.

later she asked me about gifts for D14 and S17 like everything's cool.

I know she wants more regular communication. I just have a hard time with it because I am thinking of the issues too much.

I am having a hard time being consistent.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/07/14 01:43 PM

u-turn,
You ....are definitely NOT alone in backstepping... or spiraling, for that matter!
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/07/14 10:27 PM

It seems like the very minute I pull way back, she moves in my direction.

I say - Hi, goodbye-have a good day, how was your day?, and talk about the kids. That's about it - it's not what I want, but I think I need to stay back. I'm friendly but quiet - but not quiet with kids - I want to be noticeably fun with them - I usually try to be.

She is so up and down with her moods. Yesterday morning, I swore she was going to kill me. Verbally hostile. I told her to stop being disrespectful and walked away. We ended up spending most of the day together watching the kids swim meets - I talked to her very little. She knows I am not interacting with her much.

Ironically, she does not seem to trust me, I see evidence that she still checks my phone and computer. If I were an expert mind reader, I think she suspects that I am planning our D. She seems to be stressing about how I am spending my time and what I am doing with money, but she just won't ask me - I'd tell her as I have nothing to hide.

then

Today she made me breakfast (unusual) and asked me if I wanted a haircut(unusual), asked about Christmas decorations, and future plans (vacation) and some house things. I just don't get it. I am trying to stay level and low through all of this, but as I do that she pursues more.

She's playing me - I know. I wish I didn't think she was doing this on purpose.

I am focusing on not initiating any type of conversation that would be considered about R, moods, fights, trust, future. Just ignore it all.

I am basically ignoring her talks about future things and the house - though I want to push it back at her and ask if we should care about any of that.

I am feeling a little more focused and upbeat today.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/08/14 08:30 PM

I honestly don't know how you are still doing this. I am about to go out of my mind, at this point. I am very glad you are feeling better!
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/09/14 10:38 PM

Well - a couple christmas parties coming up for W. She'll be spending the nights away.

I know what this has meant before, I know she has lied to me before when she has stayed the night for business. I know the consistent lies and avoidance of any story makes me not trust her.

I have not forgotten - I wish I have. Does she think that I believed her lies or have forgotten? - I don't know. She hasn't even asked me to trust her. I don't even know if she thinks that this should be addressed - she doesn't seem to care how I feel. I feel like a fool just thinking about this.

This will be a test for me. I know I shouldn't ask her anything about this. I know I shouldn't remind her of the lies she has told me. This will be a tough one.

I don't know for certain what her status is with me or OM - only my strong feelings that this isn't going to be good.

What can I do? I will try to block these thoughts out. Act strong. Act as though it is all fine. Will this make her think that I am accepting it? I've stated my boundaries - will she test them?

I know thes are all what-ifs, but I haven't been in this position for a while.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/11/14 05:27 PM

Her anger is increasing daily. Last night she lashed out at me about me not caring about her and what she is doing. I tried to validate this, but also told her that I disagree about this. She was very angry and breaking some things.

She ended by telling me again that she is done. She said she wanted to figure how to do this - She moves out, I move out, we separate in the house - luckily the kids were not home to hear this.

She told me to write down what I want and we will go from there.

I told her that I have told her dozens of times what I wanted. She said that is not what she meant. (she meant for me to list my separation demands).

I told her that since I am not the one who wants to separate, I think she should write down what she wants as a starting point. She said fine.

She slept on the couch last night - first in a very long time, and she was still angry this morning.

I am letting this sit today. I did say goodbye to her when I left this morning, but she needs to make the next move.

I'm calm about this - just feel defeated.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/11/14 08:42 PM

Already an apology text from W:

w:I am extremely frustrated with us and I am sorry for yelling at you
me:I can see how you feel that way. I am too
me:what would help you feel better

I know this is straight from the validation sheet - but I have to think more about my responses to her.

This is getting us nowhere - the roller coaster continues. She can move this forward if she chose to.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/12/14 02:20 PM

I am also really glad that your kids were not there for the yelling, especially your daughter. Being 14 is tough enough to deal with, and you being the reasonable and calming force is crucial for all of the kids. You keep that up, for them... for you too, but right now for them. They will deal with relationship issues in their future's and you are role modeling the strength that we all need to be able to appropriately deal with these issues.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/12/14 05:13 PM

I think we have done a marginally good job sheltering the kids from this. Though they do know that there are significant problems at home.

I am in a much better emotional state than I was in during the summer - I was projecting my emotions and they were being affected. I try my hardest not to direct any negativity concerning their mother to them. I want them to be able to form their own opinions without me pushing them. But I also want them to know that they are loved by both of us - even thought I don't always think it is apparent.

I stop myself from telling or showing them "can't you see what she's doing?". I think sometimes they do see it, but I try to calm things down - for them. I have not and will not lie to them about what is happening, but haven't been put in a position to explain things to them since I've been working at this.

I sometimes think also that the kids feel like this is all my fault. My detachment is so different than W & I used to act together. They may feel that I am giving up and not giving their mother what she needs right now. That makes detachment more difficult because I am not visibly showing them that I still love their mom, they don't hear me saying that I love her, and they don't see me actively trying to fix things.

It's very confusing for all of us.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/12/14 07:09 PM

I can relate to that difficulty. I think you are doing well with the kids, and they are, IMO, THE most important part of the whole puzzle. My son is the reason I believe that my H and I were meant to be together. I just don't know if that is still the case.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/15/14 02:02 PM

U-turn.... how are you doing?
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/15/14 05:21 PM

Hi T-Mom. thanks for checking up on me.

It was a somewhat low PMA weekend, though I didn't show it. We had very little communication or interaction. I had some good moments with the kids though.

I had a great conversation with a H/S client of mine on Sunday, they asked the right questions at the right time and I opened up to them (I never intended to open up to anyone about this yet). They were great and supportive - it feels good to talk to someone that I trust. They are wise people, both went through divorces and gave me great supportive advice that is not different than advice here - I will get through this and be better in the end. The only smack that I got is when they asked me if I was really happy - before BD. That made me really think, and it was a little upsetting that I couldn't just say yes. I thought about this all day. She is a hospice councilor and is giving me the names of some IC that they trust and think it would be valuable to consider seeing.

This morning - W sat with me as I was eating my breakfast and told me she is reading some information on some website that gives her some hope, but also reads things there that just say I will never get over this and it's hopeless. This is unusual, we have hardly spoke about us in a long while.

I told her that she and I have different ideas of how to handle and move forward from this. She agreed.

She said that we cannot continue with with me being mistrusting - It's not mentally healthy for either of us. She doesn't want to constantly tell me where she is, where she is going, how long she will be there.

She said that I also do not talk to her about what I am doing. I agreed with this.

She told me that she ruined my trust - it is her fault.

I agreed that this is not how a normal relationships should be and has never been how we used to be.

I left this conversation open, because I had to go work. She gave me a hug before I left. She hasn't done this in weeks. I feel like she is warming up, but I don't know how to trust her, and I don't know if it's real, and I don't know if I should reciprocate and communicate more. She wants to go Christmas shopping for the kids tonight.

I'm not really sure how to continue this - I always think that I want to communicate more.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/15/14 08:32 PM

I don't know if it is time to just start trusting her.

Could it be possible that she could be out of the A and never show remorse, never say she's willing to do whatever it takes, just wants to brush it away and move on?

How will I know this? It is tough for me because I am looking for more (some kind of announcement or sign), but may never get it with her.
Posted By: Little

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/15/14 09:04 PM

If your spouse wants to reconcile, there will be ZERO way you won't know it. ZERO.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/15/14 09:23 PM

u-turn,

Get advice from vets before proceeding, but I think that a direct question might be ok now.... "The only way we could ever get through this would be if we are both putting a high priority on our M, and are together in this without either of us looking for something else. I am able to do that. Have you ended your r with OM?"
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/15/14 09:29 PM

.... and.... it DOES feel so good to talk about this with people you trust.. sometimes I can see things more clearly after saying them out loud, or writing them... in addition, meeting with my IC is really an excellent grounding session for ME.... regardless of all else going on.... at some point, you will have to trust again, and you will have to work through your issues to do that.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/15/14 09:32 PM

That's what I used to think, and I have to think that if the roles were reversed, I would be doing whatever it takes to fix things. She's just not there.

I hear on these boards that the wayward spouse holds on to the H in case the A doesn't work out and to keep the family together. I feel like she is holding on the the OM in case I cannot forgive her (and to keep the family together). (though I have no proof of this any more). If this is the case, I do not know how to get it through to her that I can move forward and forgive - without pursuing and talking too much. Would it be too much of a step back to get into conversations like that again? probably
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/16/14 12:03 PM

Originally Posted By: T-Mom
Get advice from vets before proceeding, but I think that a direct question might be ok now.... "The only way we could ever get through this would be if we are both putting a high priority on our M, and are together in this without either of us looking for something else. I am able to do that. Have you ended your r with OM?"


I would like to get to this point, but I think it may be too much pressure - I don't know. I was big on this type of conversation pre-DB, but it got me nowhere. I don't know if she would answer honestly anyway.

I sure would like to open a conversation like this. I am a "put all the cards on the table" type person. See what we have and what we can do.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/16/14 06:58 PM

I guess it is best to proceed with caution. You are probably right that you can't put all your cards on the table. I wouldn't know because that's who I am.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/18/14 11:57 AM

I have a "small potatoes" question.
W mentioned that she was reading relationship and surviving after affair articles on a website. She didn't ask me to read these, but I went to the site and found some articles that were indeed enlightening.

Do you think this is a good idea?
I would like to tell here that I have read some articles on that site (she definitely likes things when they are her idea). I would also like to direct her to one that I find very valuable and not different that what is spoken about here on this forum and in DR, and really just common sense. (four ingredients to affair healing: committed partner, elimination of harmful behavior (contact w/ OM), information (transparency), and time (patients).

I really would like her to read this, since she is trusting this site and told me about it. I don't know if she's read this article. It was a pretty concise description of what I am feeling and how I think I can move past this - if she is on board.

Is it a good idea to send her a note:

W-I've been reading some articles from ...... Many of these are really good and describe what I am feeling. Thanks for letting me know that you are thinking of this.

I especially found this one ...... valuable.
What are your thoughts? What articles did you find here?
u-turn


Just wondering this - since she has brought it up to me. Her take on articles from this site was that some tell her that we will make it through this, and some make her feel hopeless that I will get over it.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/18/14 01:04 PM

W is angry with S20 because he lies to her. He even tells her lies when there is no story needed and when no questions are asked. She doesn't trust anything he says and is angry enough that she doesn't really know if she wants him to come home for christmas break.

Snarky comment in head and here instead of out loud.

Really W - are you sure you are not talking about yourself?
Doesn't she see it?

yeeeesh
Posted By: paul19510

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/18/14 01:47 PM

U turn, I would acknowledge that she read the articles and show interest in learning more about it with her if SHE WANTS TO TALK ABOUT IT. I would not IMO send her anything to read. I believe you will take away her momentum if you do? My 2 cents
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/18/14 02:51 PM

That seems consistent with the books, Paul. You are probably right on the money with that.

...and u-turn...I agree about role modeling the lying... SERIOUSLY?
Posted By: Little

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/18/14 03:11 PM

Originally Posted By: u-turn
W is angry with S20 because he lies to her. He even tells her lies when there is no story needed and when no questions are asked. She doesn't trust anything he says and is angry enough that she doesn't really know if she wants him to come home for christmas break.

Snarky comment in head and here instead of out loud.

Really W - are you sure you are not talking about yourself?
Doesn't she see it?

yeeeesh



This. THIS.

I wonder how many WAS consider how they'd feel if someone was doing to their child what they've done. For instance, would an WAH be happy with someone that cheated on his daughter and walked away? I THINK NOT.

It's incredible how so few people treat others as they'd want to be treated or see their loved ones treated.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/18/14 04:05 PM

Thanks Paul & T-mom
I feel like I want to acknowledge that I read the articles on that website for nothing more than to let her know that I appreciate that she is thinking about us.

I do agree that if there is any momentum, I do not want to hinder it - I think I've stopped momentum before and right now it is the only sign of any sort of movement.

I guess I shouldn't hold too much value in it or assume it means anything. She could be thinking something totally opposite of what what I am.

She has posted things on her FB before - about forgiveness, taking the wrong path, and second chances that could be taken two different ways. It's hard not to hold hope in these things and hard to just not ask what she meant by them.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/18/14 04:14 PM

Little,
I know that I cannot bring these things up to her - not my job to shame her. But somewhere in there she must realize that this is not how we would want the kid treated or to treat someone else.

That really kills me - we've tried so hard to teach the kids the right things.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/19/14 01:30 AM

u-turn,
You still ARE teaching the kids the right things.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/19/14 03:00 PM

Trying to empty my mind:

W tells me this morning that she has a christmas party tonight and doesn't know if she will be coming home. She looks at me like she doesn't know why this concerns me. Every other time she has stayed overnight this year, OM was there. I have not proof of this happening tonight, just red flag signals.

She knows I don't trust her, but she in no way tries to re-build this trust. She hides everything.

I want to call her out about this, tell her what I think is happening, tell her what has happened all year, and why I don't trust her, but don't think this is the right answer.

Or let OMW know tonight and ruin their family before the holiday (not doing this)

I hear that this is her journey, I can't stop her from making decisions that I don't agree with, and she has free will. But...

I don't know if she has told the kids that she isn't coming home tonight (this is a big deal to me - because it falls on me to smooth things out)

All I can do is spend some quality time with my kids and try and thought block. (not feeling very clint eastwood-y right now)
Posted By: paul19510

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/19/14 04:12 PM

Its not up to you to smooth things out. Your W needs to explain this overnight if it needs an answer for the kids. That's part of dealing with what she is doing...IMHO
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/19/14 04:57 PM

Thanks - I know that Paul

This is how the conv. will go with my kids

Kids: where's mom?
Me: she's at a christmas party
Kids: oh, again? - (sad face)
Me: yep
4 hours later Kids: when's mom coming home
Me: I don't know (lie #1)
....or
Me: she's not - she didn't tell you?
kids: no - why not?
Me: You'll have to ask her
....or
Me: let's play a game (I'll fight back the urge to tell the kids what is really happening)

They will be monitoring me at this point - I will need to hide my feelings.

I am a little ramped up today (and reading other's threads). I feel like moving on because she is not interested in fixing this.

I don't know what has happened to my PMA - I really thought I was going to be ok.

I see Rzrbcks situation and feel like I am near the same place. I am considering sending a message:

W-I know what is going on. I am only interested in a transparent, monogamous relationship with you and I know right now this is not happening. This is a decision you have to make though I understand that you do not want to make it. This is non-negotiable for me and I cannot believe that you don't understand this. Anything else is disrespectful to all of us including yourself.

I am done feeling like this.


She's asked me what's wrong, she's asked me why I still have nightmares - she should know.

I've stated my boundaries before which only made her hide things more. I have no intel any more. She does not care to work anything out - just hide and deceive.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/19/14 08:08 PM

u-turn,
Who knows what's REALLY going on? I mean, be careful of an accusation without proof... and maybe even with proof... Detach... remember? Think logically, like Spock... seriously should have been my name on here! LOL! Enjoy the evening with your kids, and try not to think about any of that nonsense because it is so out of your control.
Posted By: Little

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/19/14 08:30 PM

I think, in this instance, telling the kids you don't know what mom's plans are is okay. Is it technically a lie? Yes. But it's not on you to smooth it out (as you've been told) and worrying them does nothing.

This is an adult's business and the kids don't need to be in on it; nor do you need to be in the middle.

Originally Posted By: u-turn

W-I know what is going on. I am only interested in a transparent, monogamous relationship with you and I know right now this is not happening. This is a decision you have to make though I understand that you do not want to make it. This is non-negotiable for me and I cannot believe that you don't understand this. Anything else is disrespectful to all of us including yourself.

I am done feeling like this.



I reworked the above for you: I know what is going on with OM. I am only interested in a transparent, monogamous relationship with you. It non-negotiable for me, as I feel anything else is disrespectful to our marriage. You will need to make a choice.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/19/14 10:00 PM

Thanks little.
I can see that it is best to be vague with the kids. I don't want them changing their opinions because of something that I said. I have tried to stay in the high road through this and should not change that path.

I do like the revisions to the note - much more simply stated. I am wondering whether to do this now. She will deny it and accuse me of accusing her of something that is not true.

She in no way has helped me rebuild my trust in her. She hasn't even asked me to trust her.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/20/14 01:55 PM

Had a great night with the kids. S20 came home w/ his gf. We played some games, ate, was up pretty late. I pictured my future single life. It seems good to me. I can do it.

Now I'm having feelings that I haven't fealt and dealt with in a while. W didn't come home and my mind is out of control. I'll want to find out if she wants to be married to me or not. Once and for all. Wtf is going on? How can she think this is ok?
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/21/14 02:25 AM

Update. I found out today that the chrismas party was another lie. She lied about it all to spend the night with Om. She lied to our kids too.

Tonight I told her that I know about all of the lies she told me this year. That it is disrespectful to me and our family. I need to know what she wanted to do.

I told her that I just wanted a monagomous relationship with her. She rolled her eyes at this.

I told her that I would have done anything for us. She looked at me with disbelief. I told her I have fought for us by myself. She got a little angry with this.

Not a good script. She didnt seem shocked by this. She just coldly said ok after each sentence. Then said we will do this after the first of the year.

I asked if this is what she wanted. She said yes.

I then left to take D14 to dinner.

No tears. No yelling. No emotions. Just some nervousness from me.

I am ok with this. But I dont know what to expect. Or what to do.

She doesnt care.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/21/14 03:15 PM

u-turn,

So when you were feeling good about yourself and what single life would be like... maybe try to focus on THAT... you said, "it seemed good to me. I can do it." I feel for you. I get how bad it feels.... but take away the good of knowing you can do it, and it feeling good.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/21/14 06:07 PM

Thanks T-mom
I do worry that it feeling alright to me was solely based on my kids. I cannot put that burden on them.

I am not alright - at this moment
She is ignoring this like nothing is happening, like our talk didn't happen - wants me to go christmas present shopping with her.
She is talking about the christmas plans at my parents house.
My mind is swirling.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/21/14 09:41 PM

Yikes. So, she is a total cake eater, eh?! Do you want her to go to your parent's house for Christmas? Her comments sound like she is trying to control what happens at Christmas. I, personally, would feel the need to put her in her place on that.. shouldn't YOU decide what does or does not happen at your parent's house? I don't know what the right DB thing is to do with that.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/21/14 09:42 PM

... and is OM married?
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/22/14 01:33 PM

T-mom.
I don't know what I want any more. I don't much care about DBing any more. and Yes OM is married with 4 kids. W and OM work together.

Well - what I suspected is all true. I was just too stupid to do anything about it before.

She went right back to her ways and tried to be nice to me all day. This is her way to control everything.

At night she continued as if nothing was wrong. I told her "you do not have to be nice to me any more"

W: is that what you think I am doing?
me:you have made your decision, and it is not necessary to for you to do anything for me any more.

w:I did it because I though we were through
me: please stop lying to me. I do not want to hear any more
w: (crying) I don't want to hurt you or the kids any more
w:I didn't expect you to forgive me for before and I don't expect you to forgive me now.

Are we done? I suppose so. I cannot say that I will forgive her. She will not come back to me at this point. I don't know how to continue.

This all while S20 and her were having a battle over text message - he is not coming back either. He won't be here for christmas and probably never - until W is gone.

I feel like I've just lost everything.

I just want it to stop.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/22/14 02:17 PM

u-turn,
So if your son isn't coming for Christmas if W is there, then does W need to be there? How do the other kids feel?
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/22/14 02:22 PM

I am really sorry that you are feeling this way at all, let alone right before Christmas. I don't understand the fantasy land these people have in their heads! So, she wants her family and her affair, and so does OM. It doesn't work in real life. What if they didn't have their families to fall back on?
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/22/14 03:38 PM

Real life does not seem to have any relevance to them. The family life is all she is clinging to here.

She just told me that she just wants to keep it together through the holidays for D14 & S17. I don't know how - keep faking it and then blast them with this later?

and I think I wrote something confusing. S20 is not coming home to my & W's house & we both still lives here too. Christmas afternoon at my parents house is just dinner & some family time. We have done this every year. My brother and his kids will be there too. I don't suspect S20 will be at that either.
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/22/14 04:03 PM

Sorry for ranting today.
W/ just came into my office to talk about S20. She is angry about all of the lies he has told, about his plans to come home, about what he is doing at school. and about how he thinks he is entitled to everything and how he has been disrespecting us. She said again - "I am pissed off about all of the lies"

I responded "really?"
She got it -

she said "I know I have no room to talk"

S20 wants to be on his own. She wants to cancel his cell phone & car insurance, pack his belongings up and tell him to pick it up. I told her we will wait until after the first of the year to cancel anything. Nothing needs to be done today.

She went to work - I am relieved.
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/22/14 04:59 PM

I guess my question was more about: Is your son staying away because of her?
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/22/14 05:08 PM

Yes - I believe so. But he is escaping the situation in general, and he thinks getting out of this family is best for him.

But he also seems to be manipulating both of us. He is pitting W & I against each other. He tells W that I am the bad guy and tells me that W is. I assume this is true though I haven't actually seen the text messages about me from W's phone. She could be lying to me too.

It's so out of control that it's almost laughable.

For some ungodly reason OMW came across my people you should know list on face book. It shows a picture of OMW & OM. I clicked on it and it's a new picture from Thursday night. I feel so bad for her and her kids. I am debating contacting her after christmas. I feel guilty and torn up about all of this.

T-mom - Would you want to know?

What a mess
Posted By: T-Mom

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/22/14 07:29 PM

I WOULD want to know, but that doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. It is a difficult choice to make when you are involving another family. Are THEY better off knowing? Who knows? Before I would ever do that to OM's family, I would probably just contact OM. That's just how I am. I have no idea what I would say, because I would probably be on an emotional rant... not good! What would you say to him?
Posted By: u-turn

Re: still holding on - 5 - 12/22/14 08:24 PM

I don't think anything good would ever come from me contacting OM. In part of my old panic-mode pre-dbing ways, I thought about this (and many different scenarios). Likely, I would just feel humiliated after. He is obviously not going to be affected by me if he is not affected by his smiling wife and 4 kids. I also hardly ever feel better about anything by just getting something off of my chest.

---

Had lunch with S17 today, he asked some questions about mom, dad & S20. I explained a little about what's happening (not about mom & dad). He really doesn't care if S20 comes home. says he's being a "d-bag" anyway and has no right to act that way. He thinks that his mom and I have "really seemed to have worked things out" and he "feels good about it."

He has no idea of what's coming - that kills me.
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