Thread #6. There were some really good resources and information shared towards the end of my last thread. I highly recommend reading the posts from sandi, Maybell and others starting 10/27/14.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2501802&page=1
just reading up on your thread to help me consider how to handle IF my situation gets to the point that my W wants to date others. something I'm not really wanting to think about right now
Trust me, you won't want to think about it even if it gets to that point. Definitely don't waste your energy on those thoughts now. Since she told me, the happiest I've been is when I have not thought about it for a day or two (basically since I got food poisoning 2 days ago lol)
Lots of contact the last 2 days with WAW, mainly regarding D2. She has also been following up on my health, like 4 or 5 times in 2 days, which I do appreciate. First time she has genuinely, outwardly expressed any real care for me since S. Have tried to show gratitude without being over the top or any "please let me help you like that!" kind of stuff. I know she is just loving me as a person, cousin or colleague (take your pick). Not even close to reading into any of it, so that is a WIN for me.
Had to go over to her apt tonight to pick up D2, unscheduled. WAW coming down with some kind of throat/fever thing. I told her I was sorry, hope she feels better, but again didn't take it over the top. While I was there, she asked me if I could take out her trash. For a moment I thought about the boundaries (haven't mentioned a word of it to her), but thought, "okay, she's sick. don't be a jerk to pound my chest about my boundaries". I took the trash out, told D2 to give WAW a hug and kiss (on the cheek, not the lips!) goodbye, and leave swiftly while being friendly but not best-friendly like I've tended to do.
Other interesting thing coming up with WAW is Halloween night. I have D2 on the schedule that night. We set the schedule before the "dating bomb", so it didn't even cross my mind what that night might look like. Just figured WAW would come over for the trick-or-treating, especially since she picked out the costume. We're all going to a big get-together at my cousin's house (most of whom WAW hasn't seen since the night we announced to my family what was going on, in July). WAW is nervous. I haven't been too reassuring, but again, not a jerk. Typically from now on I don't want to do things like this with WAW while she is "on the market", but I figured it's a special occasion that she has some right to participate in if she wants, plus I'm sure D2 would want her there (although she is still young enough to forget her for a few hours if she wasn't). I just thought this was too special of an occasion to tell WAW not to come. D2 will only be 2 on Halloween once, and WAW searched on Etsy for 2 or 3 weeks for the costume. So I'm letting it go. I really don't know how it will go Friday, though. I'm not going to stand around WAW like everything is normal so she isn't uncomfortable. We'll see.
Once again, I am so grateful I did not have to go through this with young children. Hang in there, Card.
Mine still isn't as bad as people with kids beginning a little older than my D2. They take it much worse, it seems.
Today I'm inspired by the earliest post I can find from board vet Underdog, from 10/22/03:
My H left in early Jan 03. We entered mediation the following month--not with the intent of Big D, but to learn how to live separately until decisions were made.
The mediator spent some time with us reviewing our financial situation. Yes, it was very uncomfortable because you plan with the assumption that this will be carried over into the divorce. I was very uneasy about it, but since I was the one who requested mediation (we have 2 D who are young), I had to live with it.
Initially, it was a different mindset. We had to go from using the word "ours" to taking individual fiscal responsibility. He pays me child support and we operate out of different accounts.
I will tell you honestly that after the initial shock of operating this way, it has worked very well. We are living under the agreements we made during mediation, and it has allowed us to avoid having to discuss finances while repairing our relationship. In a nutshell, it has allowed some peace and for H to take control over his own money. He's always been a saver, so I never had to worry that he'd go off half cocked with spending. Neither have I, so we're okay with this.
A good friend of mine was actually divorced from his W for 3 years and they have now remarried and are extremely happy. Nothing short of a miracle, you know? Anyway, he told me that they kept their money separate when they remarried. Oddly enough, it's pretty much the same arrangement that H & I have, and he said it has allowed both of them to take responsibility for things. They both contribute to savings, etc. He agreed that the power struggles have disappeared because they are both contributing. Obviously this doesn't work if one of the parties is not earning an income, but it has definitely helped me.
It doesn't have to sign the death knell--just look at it as a means to heal. Best luck.
Underdog
I am in the midst of going through the financial separation. No ill will or hard feelings on either side, and at this point it is obviously necessary. This post gives me hope that it can be a positive down the line.
Made it through Halloween. Just a get-together at my cousin's. i had a great time and so did D2. Her first trick or treating. Weather is terrible, so we only went to 10 or so houses. Sweet memories
WAW was there and was very nervous. I knew she was because she was asking me for reassurance the last couple of days, worried about one or two of my cousins, in particular (first time she'd seen most of them since S announcement). I just said it would be fine. At the party it was hard, though. WAW was a little clingy to me just because of how uncomfortable she was around everyone else. I really wanted to eat that up and be her "BFF". Instead I was friendly but kept my distance somewhat. Kind of let her squirm a little, not like I wanted her to, but just so I didn't keep pretending like everything is cool. One of my cousins loves her, though, and she was warm to her. I was happy about that.
So we went our separate ways, I went home with D2. WAW started some friendly texting. Sent me a couple pics from the night, I sent a few in return. After a couple of jokes, she asked where I am in the final season of The Office on Netflix. We had talked about watching the final season together after S. I found out a couple of weeks ago that she'd been watching it without me. Kind of hurt at the time because I still had it in my mind that we were going to watch it together. It was hard for me to say, but I said:
Me: you go ahead and finish it. I don't think I should watch it with you right now.
WAW: Ok. I wondered if you regretted me going tonight.
Me: I'm glad you went. You're a great mommy (validate her as a mom since she has always been insecure) and D2 always deserves to have you there for things like that. I know you were uncomfortable. (Validate her feelings tonight, acknowledge that I was aware).
WAW: I think it's important for us to be able to do things with her together
Me: I agree. But it depends on the things right now. I feel different about that kind of stuff while you're dating.
She never responded directly to that comment, but I was fine letting it go like that. Ended up with a few more exchanges about candy and going to bed. So, I wasn't planning on pushing a boundary talk, but that came up organically, I thought. I didn't launch into details, motives, etc. like I would have before.
Thoughts? I know I don't have to ask you guys to be honest
I've been thinking about this for a bit. And there was no reason at all for you to mention the dating thing. You did that for yourself I think, to see if she'd take it back.
Don't do that anymore. It's a form of pursuit and you have things to do right now, to put yourself back on track. Don't take the dating thing so seriously. It's hard to let it go, but it won't do you any good. She will or she won't. You get no say. Not ok... But true.
I'm glad you had a pleasant interaction with her and I hope they continue.
I want to say more, but I'm not sure what direction to go. So I'll just remind you to stay in your own sandbox. You've got plenty to do here, and plenty of friends happy to support you in doing it.
Be well.
I didn't intend for the dating comment to be for her to take it back, but I can see how you are interpreting it like that. And if you see it like that, I'm sure she could have, too. So, yeah, mistake. I'll try to not mention it again.
My intention was to clarify why I'm making that decision, that's its not just because. But I guess that was unnecessary. I like the sandbox image. I'll try to remember that to help me with my decision making going forward.
I knew you were trying to set boundaries but I think you could have dropped it, too.
Hahahaha learning how to handl WAS is like learning a new language. So many different things to try to blend together. I agree that mentioning dating/OM should be avoided. Don't let her think it has a hold on your mind...that means she has a hold over you...that means she isn't risking consequences for her behavior...so in a weird way the more you talk about it the more she'll keep it up. OTOH...when you explain that family time isn't happening you are trying to SET consequences.
Definitely didn't fit in this exchange, and I think a rule of thumb is not to bring it up without a good reason and time to reflect or get advice. But you already knew that. Mainly just wanted to give you kudos for trying to follow the advice you've been given and staying in charge despite how tough this is. Hang in!
Went back to my cousin's house last night for a karaoke party. Great time! My cousins are nuts.
Good for you! You need those fun & crazy times with people who love you. Laughter works better than medication.
There was a calm group outside around a fire pit, and the wild ones were inside with tequila and karaoke. It was great! It got a little out of hand at one point...nothing surprising though. I was accosted by all of the females at the party (cousins and their friends) who gave me their drunken rant about how crazy WAW is. "Trust us, you will be FINE out there without her." I was not drunk at all, so, I just laughed and smiled. It was pretty entertaining, and even though I didn't get the best advice from them, it felt good to know how much they care. I mean I see them fairly often, but it's not like we're super tight. I don't talk on the phone or text with them, usually. So it felt good to know that support is there.
Honestly, I've been doing fantastically with detach for the last 5-6 days. Hope I can keep it up. This is the closest I've come to completely dropping the rope.
Still feeling good today. I have the night to myself and am thinking of going to the local university's music school to play a little piano in one of their practice rooms (if they're still unlocked like they were when I was in school) and watch the free jazz concert tonight. I used to hate jazz, but it is one of the things I have actually begun to enjoy since BD. I have had a major shift in music taste, I think partially because I have no memories with WAW tied to them.
On the other hand, football is on TV tonight. I can't believe I'm actually debating between watching Monday Night Football and going to a jazz recital. That was unthinkable over the last 10-15 years.
Went with jazz and it was soooo good. who am I?? I'm not sure yet but I like it. I also got to go back in time and practice in the piano rooms that I used to sneak away to while I was in engineering school. Then ran into two different groups of friends at the grocery store. Then held a puppy at the pet store! Every day should be like this
I feel like I should journal the good times, too, so I have something to reflect on the next time I melt down lol
Yeah, when I got to the puppy part I thought you were just selling rainbows and unicorns.
You had me a "Jazz...and Puppies!"
Yeah, when I got to the puppy part I thought you were just selling rainbows and unicorns.
Okay tonight wasn't perfect. One of my grocery bags ripped open on the way into the house.
Okay tonight wasn't perfect. One of my grocery bags ripped open on the way into the house.
But as it turns out, it was the bag with the colored marshmallows so nothing got squished.
It was actually the one carrying the 6-pack of IPA! But no worries, everything intact
I love me some Smooth Jazz.
Smooth Jazz + IPA= SLEEPYTIME!
(Just what I need!)
I absolutely LOVE that you bought colored marshmallows.
My daughter loves marshmallows in her hot cocoa. She calls them "ghost poop". Cracks me up!
Ha! Ghost poop. Just laughed out loud at that. Thanks, Ss.
Ghost poop!
Now I want some fun colored marshmallows!
I actually didn't buy any colored marshmallows...but now I'm feeling that, too. A little hot chocolate?
Wow the board is busy right now. Only went a little over a day without posting on this thread and it's on the 2nd page (with my settings, anyway).
I've been fighting a backslide the last couple of days. Just trying to dodge negative thoughts. I noticed that it started after I had a fun text exchange with WAW last night. It was a rare fun convo that did not involve D2. Since then I've begun to again think about what I could lose. It's not too bad, so trying to rekindle the PMA. I get D2 back again today (leaving work now to go get her)!
This morning, trying to let go of anger that WAW has made me a part-time, single parent. All I've ever really cared about is my family and I now have 0% of my W and 50% of my D2. And I never get to "tag team" D2. She's either not there or I have to feed, bathe, and clothe her (after work) and try to find 20 minutes to play with her. I have resentment in my heart this morning because of this.
And I never get to "tag team" D2. She's either not there or I have to feed, bathe, and clothe her (after work) and try to find 20 minutes to play with her. I have resentment in my heart this morning because of this.
Card, for what it's worth, many of us moms never tag teamed, either. I can count on one hand the number of times my H fed, or bathed, or clothed, my kids or put them to bed. That was always mine to do, and yes, after work. I know that doesn't make it any easier for you to do, but just understand that lots of us know exactly how you feel. You are not alone.
Second, I want to share a quote from a really wise lady on these boards, "Resentment occurs when we expect others to take care of our needs when we are not doing it ourselves." I am learning, for the first time in my life, how to take care of myself and let go of resentment. Let that sink in and see how it applies to your life, too.
I think what is aggregating my frustration is the fact that I only get to do that half of the time now. I wasnt a SAHD, but I was close to it. Before BD, I always woke her up, bathed her and put her to bed. Like 95% of the time. Even as a newborn, I was usually up with her at night because W had to pump (D wouldn't latch, weak suck). But I loved it. I still do. Today I'm just not dealing well with the fact that I only get to see her 1/2 of the week. Plus I miss WAW, although I am still somewhat detached from her so I'm not in agony over that at the moment.
I wil try to list some positives:
- I DO get to have D2 half of the week
- I can visit her at daycare most every day
- She is well behaved for a 2 yr old
- She needed an early childhood development program when he was 1. She is now more than caught up with her speech and skills
- my "days off" from her are usually weekdays, so I can visit her at daycare on those days and end up seeing her almost everyday of the week
- WAW has not mentioned the BigD once this entire time
I feel a little better. The roller coaster still amazes me. Everytime I get to a happy, stable spot for a few days, while i know I will have a slip up at some point, part of me feels like I will feel happy like that indefinitely. I guess it's because before BD, I was almost always happy. Happy about my job, happy with who I was married to, happy to see D2 everyday.
I'm guessing I won't be off of the roller coaster until after R or well after BigD. The potential rewards of an R'd M are still very, very worth it to me to wait on WAW, who I will keep oblivious to my emotional swings.
I know for me every time I'm happy, it means e next dip will be shorter and less intense than the one that came before it, and that my happy periods last just a little bit longer.
You're a bright spot around here, Card. I'm glad I was awake for your big trial. Sending you a hug just because.
Thanks, Maybell. You really, really helped me that night!
So WAW sent me a selfie tonight. She has her biannual two-day board meeting today and tomorrow, and she is always really nervous about what to wear for it. So it's always kind of been a tradition that she shows me her outfits and gets my opinion (I've never been terribly helpful because I think she looks good in all of them). Anyway, we chatted about it for a while last night, I guess out of habit? She texted me. Anyway, I asked her today if she went with a certain outfit, so she sent me a picture. I was struck by her weight. She has lost like 40 pounds since BD. I've know she's been losing weight, of course, but since I only see her maybe once a week, sometimes the difference is striking. The last 10 pounds she has not wanted to lose. I guess I'm just hoping she is making progress with her depression, but some evidence suggests she hasn't yet. She can't get an appetite to eat, and she is also really struggling to sleep.
Just some detached thoughts and prayers for WAW tonight. I had a great workout and run a little bit ago, so I feel much better than I did earlier today
Missing WAW tonight. D2 is sick, vomiting all afternoon. This is the first time she's ever been sick like this before. Wishing I wasn't alone here. Threw up in her bed during her nap, huge mess. Then threw up in my bed while I was cleaning that. Trying to clean while take of her. Googling "2 year old vomiting" since I've never dealt with it before. I do have some pedialyte. She hasn't thrown up in an hour (thank God). And she's super clingy, tender and calm now. We're watching football. She seems to be enjoying it.
I'm feeling a little quesy, too. Hopefully it's just empathy nausea, not be catching something
Watch for any signs of dehydration. It doesn't take a lot of throwing up for a little one. Have you given her something for the nausea?
No. My googling said no meds for 2 yr old unless doctor recommended. It's been a couple of hours since last vomit, so I think we're okay. I've been letting her sip water since it started, and now that vomiting has stopped, I'm trying to get her to sip pedialyte. She's not fond of it, though
Weird side note: she throws up exactly like WAW. I've been up many nights with WAW over the years
Ugh. Toddler vomit is no fun but it is a blessing that you get to be the one to comfort her, no?
I'm a "less is more" kind of mama... a half day of vomiting is not urgent, at least not pedialyte-level urgent... so if she doesn't want it, I wouldn't push it. Small sips of water is perfect. And some food when she's interested. My doc said yogurt was good in these situations, but I know that's not the typical post-throw up diet. 180's...?
Hang in there! Our nanny used to keep a bib on my D when she was sick!
Card,
This incident brings back some God-awful memory for me.
The very last time I threw up was when I was 5. At that time, i was in a cool bath to cool off my temp and then all of sudden vomit came up without any warning. Splash!!! Sweet...NOT...I was sitting in a bathtub water filled with yucky vomit floating around my little naked body. My poor parents...seeing that crime scene and cleaning THAT up.
How's that for a visual for ya??!!
I'm just impressed by your vomit-less streak. Nice work!
I am glad I have her instead of her being at WAW's (I would have requested to come over and help). She has been a sweet, tender little girl since it stopped. She watched football with me for 3 hours before she finally fell asleep (she never watches TV, and neither do I when I have her). She doesn't want to go to sleep in her bed, where the vomiting started earlier, so I'm letting her sleep I the couch next to me. Throwing out the rule book tonight (several hours of TV + not sleeping in her bed)
Thats what sick days are for! Well done, dada.
Haha, it reminds me of when I was sick as a kid. Once the agony was over, I could always get special treatment (ice cream and stay up late on a school night to watch baseball with my mom). I wish she was old enough to remember tonight when she's older. Oh well, I have pictures and video
Sick days are memory makers. She's young but you're establishing a sense of comfort when she needs it most. Poor pumpkin pie, I hope she's back to herself soon.
When I was sick as a kid we'd set up camp in the family room and watch tv and sleep and eat until we were well. We even had a special "I'm sick blanket" that my mom made. It was the biggest blanket and so, so warm.
Anyway, snuggled next to daddy is one of the most comforting places in the word, Card. Soak it up.
I am
I remember two sick days. One of them I think was when my mom gave us all food poisoning -- all five of us had vomited all night long and we spent the next day under blankets in the family room watching Bill Cosby: Himself on HBO and laughing like crazy. The other one was when I was home sick with the flu and spent the week reading Jane Austen and the Bronte novels, and fell in love with real literature. Both amazing memories that stick with me 30+ years later.
I bet your D loved it just as much!!!
It was a sweet day after the horror stopped. Although it wasn't quite as cultured as that. 4 hours of football, which she calls baseball. I don't even remember what game we were watching, though. Just her laying on my chest, then sitting next to me, then laying next to me
Still trying to figure out this boundary thing. WAW invited me to meet her at the gym, so I'm going...?
What boundary would that cross?
I just don't want her to think I want to be her buddy if she is going to date. I'm no longer sweating the conversation we had a couple of weeks ago when she said she intended to date. I guess I will just play it cool unless I find of she is dating around.
I didn't mention any of this to her today. I just kept it light and positive. She was in a rotten mood for a while. Eventually she came around. We went to the grocery together after gym, hugged, then sent our separate ways. I miss D2 already, but I am somewhat relieved to be alone now, after yesterday.
Seeing that we had fun at the grocery store, what about a text like this:
"I had fun being the three of us today"
Card -
I'm not totally up to date on your sitch but to me that text comes off as pursuing. I personally wouldn't send it. But I'm sure others will chime in with their thoughts.
I think others would agree. I was feeling silly earlier. I was alone all afternoon, then I heard some corny sad song about a breakup and felt like pursuing.
She invited me to the gym and to the grocery today. Im not mind reading in a hopeful way (like "maybe she wants to R!") but I do find myself believing she is doing this to try to remain friends, or at least friendly. I'm not going to tell her this, but I will always be friendly with her, regardless of what happens. Give time, I could get there after a D. I think it would be good for D2. But for now I don't want to reassure that, and I know that is one of WAW's biggest fears, that we will end up like her parents (unable to even speak to each other). I just don't want to reassure any move towards BigD
So WAW just told me I looked good at the gym today. Trying not to mind read either way, but that made my heart flutter. For now I'll just enjoy the first "loving" compliment she's given me since BD
Dude, take it and enjoy the crap out of it. I would kill to be able to spend time with my wife.
Congrats!
So WAW just told me I looked good at the gym today. Trying not to mind read either way, but that made my heart flutter. For now I'll just enjoy the first "loving" compliment she's given me since BD
Good for you, Card! Enjoy.
I got a compliment on my appearance from H myself this weekend, first one since BD also. We were dressed for the gala and I told him he looked nice. He said, "You too, I had to match you." He didn't initiate that, but I'll take it anyway.
I'm glad to hear that, FL. The gala sounded great, btw.
Had a good day today. Only anxiety is about the house - still lots of showings but no offers. Nothing new about WAW today. She did send a funny text typo:
WAW: Let's talk later about the house
(Later)
Me: can you talk?
WAW: Yeah for a sex
WAW: Sec!!!!!
Me: Haha screen shot
So there are two major milestones coming up in December. One I think I know how to handle, the other I'm not entirely sure.
#1) WAW turns 30. I don't know how she feels now, but I know she was anxious about that birthday as far back as a year and a half ago. Unless there is some drastic change, I think I should at least acknowledge her bday. I don't plan on a present or even a card. Just a text or a phone call. But what to say? I wish I could tell her that she is more beautiful now than when I met her 10 years ago. And I truly believe that. But that might be inappropriate. Plus, maybe it's dumb to put any emphasis on the significance of the age?
#2) dec 28 will mark 10 years from when we officially started dating. It was our anniversary date before we were M'd. I think I know how to handle this: don't even bring it up.
Great questions.
My wife's birthday is in two weeks. I hate the thought of having to ignore it and that someone else may be celebration it with her instead of me.
I would offer the same advice for both of you. Acknowledge her birthday by helping the kids do something for her. I just did this with STBX - and I helped the kids put together photo albums for him. It makes the kids feel great - and its a nice gesture, even though its not directly from you.
Having a random detach slip today. Really missing WAW, really fearing BigD, not feeling confident. I know it will pass but right now it's a downer. Not as bad as these drops were in July-Oct, though. Her admiring compliment on Sunday seems like it never happened, just with how I'm feeling right now. We've been in friendly contact all week, but mainly just about D2, WAW missing her while I've had her all week.
I think this latest episode was triggered when I noticed something on her FB page. She sent out a message recruiting any friends who are good at photography to help with a volunteer project she's a part of, marketing for a homeless shelter. Am I a pretty good photographer, and if we were still M it would have been a no-brainer for me to help. She never mentioned it to me, though. I don't know if she thought it would be awkward around her work friends? I mean she seems to enjoy doing gym/grocery with me, so I can't imagine she just didn't want to be around me. Maybe she felt like she couldn't ask for a favor like that while she is S from me. I haven't been obsessing about this, these are just the thoughts that rushed to my head, and I think they triggered the backslide.
Up and down today. WAW a dropped by in the morning to help get D2 and help a little with some house cleaning. We have a flood of showings this weekend. After 2-1/2 months, we finally have an offer. We countered and are now awaiting the verdict. Yay, right? Well I'm not that excited. I love this house, love this neighborhood, love the location, love the way the light pours through the windows in the afternoon, etc. I guess I'm just mourning the house (which I thought I'd already done). Lately I'd been entertaining the idea of a housemate in order to keep the house. It just wasn't going to happen, though - it needed to be someone I know since I have D2, but I don't know anyone looking for a place. And Ive known that I lost the house when she signed her apt lease...the house is just more than I want to lay on my own. Ive known all of this, it's just becoming real with this offer.
WAW has been more friendly with me lately, but I'm trying not to mind read it one way or the other. Honestly I think she is just trying to keep it amicable because her biggest fear is a nasty D like her parents had. But I'm not dwelling on that. In fact, I counter it with a positive thought (she's warming up, her heart is softening a bit), then moving on.
I have been wanting to find the "perfect" set of new friends...single people, around my age, similar interests, no drugs, not trying to go out and get laid all of the time. Some of that I won't relent on, but I'm coming to terms with the fact that I might need to be a 3rd or 5th wheel sometimes. It beats sitting alone on Saturday nights.
Card, my D and I will be your roomies so you can keep the house. Light pouring in through the windows sounds delightful though living with a separated woman and her D may not give the right impression to your w.
Never mind.
I'm trying to find single friends, too, and I'm convinced there are none. At least none outside of the 22 and 23 year olds working at BR. Great.
If it makes you feel better, I'm in my pjs at 7:20 pm on a Saturday night. The plan? Opening a bottle of Côtes de Paso Blanc and perhaps digging into the Halloween candy a bit. A wild and crazy night.
I've got the kids this weekend so I'm home tonight too. I've got a novel I wish I liked, a self-help book, a pile of laundry, and some popcorn. I'm going to call it recharging.
It's all good. This is just for now. It's WAY better than a year ago, and who knows where I'll be a year from now?
Sad to say, the Nerdy Young Thing is moving to Malaysia. It's another sign.
Malaysia, Maybell??! That's quite a change of scenery, huh?
I know!!! He can't have me so he moves to Malaysia!!
Card29 - I want to echo Maybell's comment that you are a bright spot on these boards. You have such wisdom, calm and judgement that every time I have to check that you're not a 55 years old woman. I read all of this thread and some older posts, including your first post where you explain your sitch. What's the latest on this guy from school who went to France with her? Also, you don't seem to dwell much on your own faults leading to the S, except perhaps that you didn't spend enough time together. Maybe I missed that? Any reasons why she'd want out? But honestly, to me it looks like she got the thrills for this guy during the trip and her brain is playing tricks on her. I might be seeing this because that's partly what happened to me when my W met a handsome young guy at her new job who showered her with attention and gifts. My M had more issues than yours though. It took my W two months after S to tell me she was with him - all along, she said she wanted to be alone, not in a couple, there was no one else not even in her heart, etc.
You seem like such a catch. I can't imagine she won't realize that at some point down the road. With your awareness and wisdom, you look like a success story in the making. There are rough times ahead, but keep at it.
Thanks for the kind words, Mozza.
Regarding the guy from school, Paris, etc. I do think she had feelings for that guy at BD. I think the Paris trip was the final straw. I still don't think they were ever physical. I think it was an EA without him even realizing it. After I called him in June, their R seemed to become much more professional. BUT, I know I could have a sheet pulled over my head right now since we are S and I only see her once a week for a few minutes. I did have the PI for 2 months, though, and they found zero evidence of anything suspicious, with him or anyone else.
I still don't know what to think about her "wants to date others" comment a month ago, so I try not to think about it. For some reason she still informs me of some of her social plans and still seemingly reassures me that it's with her girlfriends, or the guy that will be there is married his W will be there too, etc. I just say "okay" because I'm really not prying for info like that.
I still think the primary reasons for our failed M is my emotional neglect of her and her depression, which she's had since before we met. She has a lot to learn about being a good W, too. She was very reactive, selfish, and took out her frustrations (work, school, D) on me. While a lot of what I need to change as a H can't be practiced until we're at least piecing, there are things I've identified that I have changed or am working on now.
I have been "off" porn since early August, my longest streak since I was probably 15 or 16. W knew I was fighting this early in our R/M, but she was so hurt everytime I confessed a backslide, eventually I decided what she didn't know wouldn't hurt her, and I hid it for the last 5 years (while half-heartedly trying to quit). I thought my plan was working, but after all of this I realized it played a hand in killing my intimacy with her, especially in the bedroom. I feel much healthier now, and the temptations are fading, too. I will tell her all of this if we get to piecing. It is just another reason to be hopeful that things could be different if given the chance.
I am also practicing emotional intelligence, listening intently and starting from empathy. I mainly practice those at work since that is where the bulk of my adult interactions occur.
I am also working on things that I think had a minor role. I don't think I'm particularly angry or have extreme outbursts, but she did always complain that I yelled at her. I always dismissed that because my dad REALLY yelled at my mom, and I'm not even 10% of that. But in hindsight, my W comes from a very subdued family, and jeez, if she said that to me for years, I should listened, talked and tried to figure out what she meant. Right now I am trying to work on letting go of anger and frustration as they come up, which they do from time to time when I'm home alone, D2 is whining and the dogs are whining, too. Taking a moment to pause, breathe, empathize, then think and react.
I also have learned that I'm a Mr Nice Guy. Not down to the letter, but I do have many of the tendancies. I'm trying to practice being more honest, especially when it comes to "not nice" things that need to be said. I do think I share the tendancy with textbook MNG, where my frustrations come out passive aggressively. This may have been what WAW was talking about when she felt I was yelling at her.
Honestly, I do think I'm a "catch", especially now that am much more knowledgable as a H. I've always had the passion to be a great H, I just never learned how to be one. Everyone either of us know hopes she comes around and gives me another chance. To my knowledge, no one is telling her she's better off without me (although I don't know her friends at work very well, who she hangs out with when she does do something...all women, to my knowledge). But WAW is a very independent woman. She typically makes decisions on her own, so I know R would have to start with her making the decision to try.
Card,
I read your post above and it was almost like I wrote it. it's uncanny how similiar some of our sitchs are. I think Mozza and my W are similiar, and you and I are similar.
I'm not sure where my W stands with OM, but it seems to have died down. I'm the same way with being MNG, passive aggressive, not angry but was told I 'yelled' at her about things. I think the emotional neglect was my issue to, I see since we had kids, I was treating our M much more of a business than a R. I also agree that as much I would love to have my W back, there's a lot of work she needs to do right now.
Just letting you know, you're not alone.
just broke the rules a little. WAW sent me a cute picture of D2. I texted a smiley, then was about to say "miss her" but instead said "miss you guys"
Just e-mailed an accepted counter offer to our realtor. Here was a text convo with WAW:
WAW: How do you feel
Me: Relieved, sad
WAW: Yeah. Me too
Me: Really? Anything else you feel?
WAW: I don't know. I'm sad
*checks validation cheat sheet*
Me: Thanks for telling me that and for asking about me
Me: Side note: I'm out of practice forging your signature. Not my best work
Card -
I say this with love and others may disagree but it comes off being a little pushy. I know the same approach doesn't work for everyone but I think you W needs to feel a little distance. I know you had a good interaction the other day at the gym however she's still a WAW. I would have left the conversation like this:
WAW: How do you feel
Me: Relieved, sad
WAW: Yeah. Me too
I'm not trying to be mean but don't be so available don't push her to give you more than what she willingly gave you as an answer.
I have to agree: I see too much pursuing in there. If it's really hard to hold back, keep in mind that it's counterproductive to pursue. Doing nothing works in your favor.
I've been conflicted lately. I gave her tons of distance for a couple months and at the end of that time, she was looking to date others and was surprised I wasn't okay with it. I don't know if I should "try something different" and be closer, try to fulfill her ENs some (since there is no OM that I know of), or if I should distance myself more like you and sandi suggest. One thing I have done wrong lately is be way too quick to respond to texts or phone calls. I just noticed it yesterday, but for a couple of weeks I have responded immediately. I'm going to practice some hesitation, maybe even ignore her for a day.
I think chapter 5 or 6 of DR has a section on why things aren't working out as expected. I doubt that pursuing falls under "try something different". It seems to be a big no-no until the WAW is pursuing. It's off-putting when you're not interested in someone.
It's not about ignoring. But you are busy. You can respond but don't be at her beckon call. Be pleasant but don't try to extend the conversation.
She knows where to find you if she wants you. I Wonder if part of her said she wanted to date others if you really were dark as bait. To see if you had moved forward. Again just an observation
But listen women like being chased to an extent then it becomes pushy and unattractive. That is in a scenario where the women actually wants to be in a R. Now figure this WAW doesn't find you attractive or want a R yet you are being pushy, needy and available. More of a turn off. Have you ever heard we want what we can't have? Similar to that in my opinion. I personally would listen to sandi. She has excellent advice always and used to be a WAW. You can't get much closer to that for accurate advice.
Guys, thanks for the 2x4's. It's exactly what I needed to hear. In my heart I knew this was right. I know a lot of this is out of my control, I just want to do what will give my M the best chance to survive. So I get antsy sometimes and worry I'm not doing everything I can.
Card,
Sometimes, doing less IS doing more.
Keep working on taking the focus off her, and putting your energy into you.
And it's true. We ladies do not like when we are pursued by a guy we're not into. It really has the opposite effect. And sorry to say, right now "that guy" is you.
Now, if she is giving you very strong, clear signals that she WANTS to be with you
alone, there is no OM or divorce pending, and she is clearly waiting for YOU to make the first move, then things might be different.
But it doesn't sound like that's where she's at right now.
Be warm, be friendly, meet her warmth with warmth, inject some lightness and humor, don't take things so seriously. If you can get her to laugh, that's great. But always give a little less than she does.
LET HER SET THE PACE.
It's that 80% rule, right?
You reciprocate about 80%. So you're receptive, even loving, but always a bit less than she.
You will not drive her off with this approach, and you will not miss any opportunities to move a bit closer either---if she is the one setting the pace and moving for that closeness.
Beware though that she may be one of those who "wants" a lot from you in terms of emotional support and more, even though she is involved with others.
In that case, it's a no-go. She doesn't get to use you for her emotional stabilizer while disrespecting you.
Keep your boundaries firm, and respond to her within that framework.
If you're consistent, calm, and demonstrate kindness and integrity, she'll be sure to notice.
(Don't expect her to comment on it, though!
)
--(G)GGG
More great advice, GG (GGG? GGGG? You need to explain that to me
)
I do think I've done well with all of that except for 80%. I have varied between 95-105% reciprocity. Time to tone it down. i guess I can show her I am willing and able to fulfill her ENs without really pursuing
Got a call at 2:30 in the morning from WAW asking me to come pick up D2 because WAW was sick with stomach bug. I asked her if she needed me to bring anything and she said no. I started to pack some Gatorade, applesauce and instant rice that I had left over from my sick spell, but I decided to not bring it. I picked up D2. Today, I texted "How are you?" to WAW. I feel like this follows the 80% rule since she went to the trouble of buying me stomach-friendly food and bringing me a Phenergan magic pill when I was sick 3 weeks ago. So far she hasn't responded. Hopefully she's asleep if she was up all night throwing up.
The good news is D2 seems to be fine.
Card,
The progression of the "Gs" is as follows:I began as Goat Gal. (GG)
Then there was someone called GG (Golf Gal) at the time; this created a little confusion.
I had an issue with my super-flexible joints, and my hip popped out of the socket--and so I began to refer to myself as "GUMBY Goat Gal" because I am flexy and bendy, in both physical and mental aspects.
After it was pointed out to me that in terms of attitude, stature, and appearance, I am, in fact,
"
A GODDESS" (!!!!),
I decided to incorporate that into my name as well. (Tee-Hee!!!
)
Thus the "G" in parentheses, for (Goddess).
So (
Goddess)
Gumby
Goat
Gal.
Yes, it's confusing.
I'm thinking of changing my name down the road, but when I read others' sitches, the name changes really get difficult to track, so I'm waiting for the next chapter of my life to decide what to call myself.
But for now, just consider me the
"Super Flexible Dancing Goddess of the Goats, who lives on the Triple G Ranch (GGG), the previous residence of GUBU the Amoeba, who is the subject of my ongoing DBing laboratory experiment and who visits on occasion."Hope that clears it up.
Hah!
Oh, and the first "G" is in parentheses because I like the moniker "Triple G"
Because it sounds kick a$$.
As in "Triple Threat"!
So "Triple GGG" works well. Sounds gangsta, right?
---(G)GGG Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!
Home inspection going on right now. Trying to stay relaxed and to react to what happens, not to a fear of an unknown possibility.
Well it looks like our house is going to sell. I guess we'll be out of this limbo step. Now I'll find out if she was waiting for the house to sell before filing. I'm not really worried about it, just a thought.
Not a lot of contact with WAW lately. Nothing really positive or negative to report. She did tell me about her going to dinner with a guy from her MBA program thanksgiving night. She says he's "like 60", is not interested in dating her or anything, just that he's a good person to know because he used to work in the state congress, or something. Who knows. I've softened a bit on my "boundary" of not doing friendly things with her, at least until it became clear that she was dating. I'm still not fearing that possibility, just aware. So I'm going to go with her and D2 to look at Christmas lights in the next couple of weeks. Trying to stick to the 80% rule
Sounds good, card. The 80% rule is harder than I thought but it's helping me. Let me know what you think of it and how it works for you.
Is D2 feeling 100%?
D2 is doing well. She does have a mild case of hand-foot-mouth. We just found out my sister has strep, and D2 drank after her recently. We're all hoping D2 doesn't catch that. Thanks for asking! I've missed my DB buddies. Been busy with D2, house, work, etc lately.
I've only used the 80% rule a little (2-3 weeks in September and the last week or so), but I have seen some positive results (although I try not to mind read). Of course I'll need to follow it for a lot longer to expect anything major to change.
I need to catch up on your sitch, but what little ive seen seems to show the a much improved Ss06! I'm so glad to see that. Any interesting photo sessions lately?
I hope D doesn't get more sick on op of HFM disease. Eeek!!
Yes, quite a few sessions are keeping me busy, thanks for asking.
In slightly more important news, I'm being recruited for an executive assistant position for arguably the worlds' greatest visionary. We shall see!
That's incredible! So glad to hear about the photo work and that recruitment. That has to be quite the confidence boost!
Indeed!! The timing is stressful with the holidays coming, etc. but there are worse problems to have, right?
Well I just broke the news to my dad's side of the family. I'm not nearly as close to them, I basicaly only see or talk to tbem at thanksgiving, Christmas, and a summer get-together. I never found it appropriate to call a bunch of them and tell them what was up. It wasn't very fun, and it was especially awkward because the topic came up when one of my aunts asked if we were planning on having another baby.
I also had a text exchange this morning with WAW's cousin, and probably her best friend. She texted me, initially. I hadn't talked to her since the summer. She just said she misses and loves me. It meant a lot. She said she had hoped WAW would have wanted to date me by now but "life happens, I guess". She also said their aunt said, "I don't care, Card29 is my family. I'm getting him a Christmas present. If he's not coming here I'll mail it." That made me laugh and smile. I'm thankful no one (that I know of) who is close to her is really supporting her move. I don't think shes being ostracized, either. It just seems like the healthiest environment that I could hope for regarding the hopes of her giving our M another shot.
I was a little bummed tonight for it to be thanksgiving, everyone really happy, lots of great food, and my W is out to dinner with some 60-yr old guy to network with him. Man how things have changed in 12 months.
WAW was pretty crappy this morning. She was supposed to come by at 9am to take D2 to her mom's house for the weekend. I got D2 up, dressed, fed her breakfast, packed her bag. On top of that I had a plumber at the house, trying to get him to give me a statement saying our fireplace is safe (requirement of our buyer). WAW was 2-1/2 hrs late (she let me know a couple of times about delays). At 11:00, as she was on her way over, I called and asked what she wanted to do about lunch for D2. She was pissed. Mad that I didn't ready feed her, or something (she normally doesn't eat lunch until 11:30 or 12:00). Mad that I didn't call her sooner. I thought I was doing well to call her at all, seeing that she was supposed to be here 2 hrs earlier and it was her trip with D2, her plan, etc. She was crabby and rude the whole time she was here. I did my best to not reciprocate those feelings, but not cower to them, either. Just let them go and do whatever they want, while I enjoy my final moments of thanksgiving weekend with D2.
I don't know if she was hungover, had a bad sleep, so ply in a bad mood...sometimes i almost think WAW tries to make me hate her so it would be easier for her to file. (I also think that thought is ridiculous, but it's still there sometimes).
Card,
Did you ever read Depression Fallout? If so, thoughts?
Fwiw- I feel sometimes my WAH is a d*ck to me to make me file, so he wouldn't look like the bad person.
We all have those thoughts.....
I haven't read it yet. I'd forgotten about it, so thanks for reminding me. I just went on Amazon to buy it, and it said I'd already bought the Kindle version. I forgot I did! I'll start reading it today.
Still going through craziness with the house, home inspection. HOPEFULLY we crossed the final major hurdle today. We'll see soon.
I went to our nephew's (SIL's S8) birthday party, 3 hours away yesterday. WAW and D2 were already there for their Thanksgiving. I met everyone on Sunday at the bowling alley. It was fun, no problems with WAW. Everyone remarked on their surprise at how well we're getting along, and also on their shock at how much weight WAW has lost (by my count, 45 pounds since June, and she wasn't that very big to start with). I think she's starting to teeter into the mildly unhealthy range. Yesterday she didn't eat anything until almost 7:00 pm, after she was almost sick from dehydration/exhaustion/etc. She blamed it on the stress from her school (end of semester this week). I hope it's that and not an eating disorder, or something.
We caravanned (our two cars) back to town. I had a real moment of weakness during one of our stops. I really wanted to hug her and tell her how much I miss her. I ended up with just a one-armed hug while she was nuzzling in close to kiss D2 while I was holding her. She asked if I was okay and I said yes. I'm glad I didn't go further, but I do want to somehow convey that I want our M to be with HER, not because I want more time with D2 or any other reason. Honestly, I'm no longer worried about D2's future. I'm not worried about finances, having more kids, health insurance, finding another love, or anything else. I just want our M because I think we're perfect for each other, we were just unskilled (plus her depression). And I want her to know that because I've wondered if she thinks I want the M just for the peripheral stuff I just mentioned. I just need to know when and how to tell her.
Card, I needyo find a way to inform my H of this, too. He thinks I only want to stay together for D. It's hard to convey wanting him without it being seen as pursuing. Any ideas on that??
What a challenge!!