So, a week ago Monday I came back home to stay in our guest room. I had been spending M-F at my parents and weekends with our boys at the house...Leaving my WAW to have the weekends free to do as she wanted.
I came back 10/13 and said I was coming back home. The week has been fine, but mostly because now that I am back, WAW leaves after dinner and stays out until 12 - 1 am every night.
There has been some mixed signals. I was leaving nice notes and setting up coffee maker in the mornings all last week. These weren't 'lovey' notes, just nice notes. W texted me and thanked me and mentioned them. Then she left for the weekend. I had children all weekend, and told her she was welcome to stay. I've been giving her space, not asking where she's been, who she's with. No arguing. No following her around.
After weekend, I wrote her a letter that was focused on her and my empathy to her feelings. I specifically said in the letter it was not to change her mind or convince her. No excuses, no justifications for things I've done that have brought her to feeling the way she feels. She had texted me this Monday morning and lamented she was disappointed I had not left her a note. I went home for lunch, when she wasn't home, and left her the letter I had written. She is not comfortable discussing feelings or emotions at all really, and she said later in the afternoon she was having a hard time with the letter.
After I got home she went out with a friend to 'discuss' the letter.
I have not been leaving notes or coffee set up since. I've been LRT and detaching and mentally preparing that this is it and permanent.
Tuesday after work she went to a meeting about an upcoming school auction. I was at home with the boys. She didn't come home until 1 am. We now have a guest staying with us in the guest room, so I was in our bed. She got in bed and went to sleep.
The next morning we were both up early, as she had agreed to watch a friend's baby. As I was about to leave to take S7 to school, standing in entry way, she placed her hand on my arm. Subtle, but the first time she'd initiated physical touch in a few weeks.
Then yesterday she texted me and asked if I was distancing myself from her. I had no idea how to answer this. She has been blatantly distancing herself from me, emotionally, physically, and stated as such.
I answered that I am focusing on what I have control over. I am working on me. Doing what is right for me.
She asked how that related to how I currently feel about her and changes in behavior with her. I asked her to be more specific and she refused. She said I seemed closed off.
I said I am moving forward and feeling good about myself. I said I stand by not wanting a divorce but I will accept that reality.
She then said, "so all the niceties are over now?". I completely didn't understand. She has said she's done. I began to feel that leaving the notes etc. was pressure and pursuing her. I stopped for 2 days and she's upset. I said no, but I am evaluating why I'm doing those things. I want them to be no strings attached, not because I expect them to get a certain response from her.
She then said "whatever. I don't know if I can be in the same house as you right now. I knew it was all BS."
I assured her is wasn't fake, I meant the things I've said and feel. But I am prepared to move forward alone. I said I am here and available if she wants to talk. She said she has closed up shop, she's done. Then said "let's file".
I reiterated I did not want a divorce, and I would not file for divorce, but if that is what's right for her then I will accept that reality. And again said I am available to talk.
She said she was tired of the therapy speak. She then asked "What do you want from me?" I tried to get her to open up a little more about what that means, I wanted to understand the question and why she asked it.
She said my answers seem vague and non-specific.
Got home yesterday with PMA in full swing, gave her a big hug in kitchen, which she accepted and I could feel her release a little and lay her head on my shoulder.
Then we had an ok conversation...that turned into her wanting to discuss some specifics about divorce, and her saying she does not want me at the house. I argued a bit, and tried to stand my ground about not leaving. That I am giving her space, she's free to come and go and she pleases and I am not pressuring her or following her around. That I want to be there to provide as stable an environment for kids as possible. She said she wants distance, doesn't want to be living in same house. Wants to go back to our 'nesting' arrangement; kids stay in house, we rotate. (of course though, she still wants me at the house on the weekend. There isn't a particular OM, but she has dated, and I think interested in one guy).
We argued a bit. I left to go to gym, and read more of DR.
I came home about 8:30 and asked if we could talk for a minute. Had a very civil conversation. I said I wanted to give her what she wants right now. That if that's the kind of space she needs, then I'm open to working out an arrangement. She said she doesn't want to be divorced, but can't stay in this R. We didn't really have a R talk. (I of course, after this wake up call, have been making great strides and changes...although typically too little too late).
ANYWAY, she left. I cleaned up dinner, kids in bed, etc. I went to bed about 10:30, tossed and turned, really beating myself up about the argument. Shouldn't have engaged, should have redirected conversation. Oh well, it's done. I really wanted her there. I haven't been feeling that way, been detaching and ok with it. But last night I was aching, restless, mind racing. Wished she were there, even if cold. Finally fell asleep.
Woke up in the night, and she was by the bed, about to lay down. I said her name, and she said "I came home" (This morning I saw that she had texted me at 12:20 saying she was coming home. I'm pretty sure she went to her mother's.) She laid down, and against ALL my better judgment, I reached out and touched her back. I caressed her. Then I asked her to come to me, and she did. She rolled over and laid her head on my chest and we fell asleep.
I know this doesn't mean anything. And I know I am screwing up.
I am getting crazy mixed signals. I don't understand anything.
She wants to have an amicable divorce, remain friends, not involve lawyers...but also wants to stay in the house with the kids, I leave, I pay child support.
I don't know if she's confused or having an internal struggle, or if I am being played / manipulated.
We haven't talked about it today, but she wants to go back to rotating in / out of house. Should I agree? Should I stay?
ANY advice would be appreciated. This is complicated because while I feel she is the WAS at this point, because I want to work it out, very recently, 4-5 weeks ago, I was the WAS, with her begging to reconcile...
We are very very off track and screwed up right now. I don't know what to do.
Don't leave! Keep reading DR book. I think you are making some good progress. I am a newbie but your W seems like she wants this to work but she has a hard time believing it is possible.
Hang in there and don't leave. Stay calm, read and study DR and hang in there.
Sending good vibes your way.
In our discussion yesterday, when I put my foot down and said I would not leave (She's welcome to leave, come and go as she likes, I'm giving her space), she seemed to make it clear that if I did not give her the space in the way that she wants it (ie. us rotating the house, but not living together, me not staying in the house full time), then she will file for divorce.
She pulled the "if you respect me as a person, if you love me the way you say you do" card.
I know, I know, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.
Should I stay firm and not leave the house? I'm not badgering her, asking her whereabouts, nothing. But she is uncomfortable with me being there and almost every night has left after dinner and come home at midnight or later.
Am I doing more good or damage by not leaving?
Pretty standard advice around here, especially with young children involved, is not to leave the house. At least not without seeing a lawyer first. Can be considered abandonment in a lot of states.
I also sort of feel like she is giving me positives to warm me up to the idea that we can have an amicable divorce, be friends, etc.
I feel like as long as I am going the direction she wants, then she will play nice, but if I don't, then she is going to throw a fit. I also feel like she's playing me that if I resist, it is further damaging her trust in me, or that we can reconcile.
Ugh...
Drew - I'm in OK. I wouldn't be 'moving out' per se. She wants to go back to her at the house with the kids M-F, with me having dinner or interaction with kids one day a week, or more, and taking S7 to school in mornings.
Then I would have the boys, at the same house, our house, Friday afternoon - Sunday evening.
I don't think it would be interpreted as abandonment.
I just don't know if I should do what I feel is right for me, or what I think might give me a better chance at reconciliation. I do think there's a chance. Should I let her throw her fit, or not risk it?
123Gwen - I absolutely agree with you. She definitely has a hard time believing it's possible. she thinks there are things she can not forgive or get over. I just don't know how much of a harda** to be right now about what's right for me and our children.
Well, I'm definitely not a vet at this, and have had similar confusions as you have regarding physical contact and such. Just an outsider looking in, I see cake eating. She wants you as the back up as she goes out all night to carouse around. Now that you are pulling back and detaching she feels that and it bothers her that you may not be there as the back up should she want to come back.
I'm in the boat that you should stay in the house, maybe in different beds. I'm in the same bed with my WAW, but I sometimes think I'd sleep better with her on the couch. However, there are plenty of DBers out there who wish their WAS was in their bed at night, so I try to be careful about what I wish for. However I don't think living apart would help my sitch. I give her space when she's in the house, even told her she was free to go out when she wants as she's an adult. But having her stay out all night, knowing when she does it's to swill 3x the beer she would have before this started, and getting home at 3:00am, rubs me wrong for a mother of two.
HOWEVER, what we need to know about is how you were the WAS 5 weeks ago. She might be justified to jerk you around (maybe) depending on what you were doing. What did you mean by saying you were the WAS? Fess up. We might beat you up, but promise no bruising. . .
Blndsid - I'll try to make this as succinct as possible.
Along with typical bad husband / wife dynamics for several years (ie, me responding as if she were attacking me when she was trying to express concerns, although her approaches were not gentle. Me responding defensively, her being defensive, bad communication, etc.), we recently made some very serious mistakes in regards to our marriage.
Through some poor choices, and over confident belief that we were more stable than we really were, we opened our marriage to non-monogamy. My W was interested in exploring her attraction to women, alone. She also encouraged me to have a physical relationship with a woman. I was at first reluctant, believing the reality would be different than what she claimed to be ok with.
Glossing over a lot here, she had a steady thing with a woman from couple friends of ours. I met a woman, also married, that I enjoyed seeing and we hit it off.
We actually felt that being 'open' contributed to honesty in our marriage. We had no reasons to lie. We were honest about our desires, whereabouts, and more. And it didn't seem to be affecting our relationship negatively, actually making it better.
My W initially expressed concerns over the relationship going beyond just physical. I was selfish and reasoned away her concerns. Things were fine for a while, and in fact we were all friends. Let me be clear, I was becoming emotionally involved with the OW, but I had absolutely no intention of leaving my wife. I did not love the OW more than my wife, I had no desire to divorce, or be only with OW. Ever.
My W then began to express dissatisfaction. She said it was hypocritical of me to have a relationship with someone of the opposite sex, and her not be able to. This had been my boundary from the beginning. She wanted to explore a same sex relationship, and she wanted me, as the HD partner, to have the option to see someone else as well.
I was not ok with this. I argued that we were both getting what we had wanted and my boundaries stood.
Long story short, she ended up hiding and lying that she had met up with the woman I was seeing H.
This devastated me. I viewed this and felt that it was cheating. Although we were definitely engaged in an alternative relationship, that didn't mean to me that boundaries didn't need to be respected.
She, of course, reasoned that I had made her feel controlled, and that she wanted what I had.
I reacted very poorly to all of this. I took the pity party, I'm a victim, you've wronged me stance. I threatened breaking up our marriage. She begged and pleaded for a while for me to let her love me, to close our marriage, to put things back together.
I was staying at my parents, we had 'separated', and I had asked that both of us immediately stop doing anything else to damage our marriage. I went NC with the OW. W and I were talking. I was stating that if we were going to move forward, things have to be different. Advocating for getting us back on a healthy relationship track.
I went home one Thursday night, and talked to W. Then we went to bed. I woke up and used the restroom and left my phone there. I went back to bed and snoozed. Then needed to know what time it was and if I needed to get up. I really was NOT snooping on her phone. Cuddling in bed, I felt her phone by my hand and picked it up to check the time...and saw a text from a man I did not know.
I confronted her and asked who it was? Why was she texting with him if we had agreed to stop seeing or doing anything to add to our damage?
She stood firm that our 'separation' meant we could do as we pleased. She viewed it as a trial divorce.
I threatened then to file that day. (I didn't) I left for work angry.
She left for the weekend and I had the children. Something changed that weekend. I could sense it.
When she came home Sunday I sat down with her and asked what was going on. That's when she said she "had heard me" and she was done.
Since then, I completely woke up. I completely accept my responsibility for the mistakes I've made. All of the sudden, when faced with the actual reality of my W leaving, I have realized what is most important to me, what my priorities are, how many mistakes I and we have made. I have 180'd in many ways, and genuinely. I'm in counseling, and am very very clear about what I want.
But since that episode, she has definitely become the WAS. I did all the wrong things, too. Pleaded, begged, cried, guilted about our family, shamed. I stopped quickly though.
Listen, I'm absolutely aware that we have a LOT to deal with, if we reconcile. It's really not as screwed up as it sounds. We are very normal, intelligent, middle class people. There is a lot of good and love in our R. We've just made very poor choices.
So...that's roughly why I'm here. And I'm not sure how to handle my interaction with my W. I do not want to divorce. I want to reconcile, and address our issues, and have a new, much much better marriage. She now, is classic WAW. Although, I feel like I was there recently, although in hindsight, not seriously. It was manipulation.
Lay it on me. Judge me. Tell me how badly I've screwed up my marriage. I'm aware.
I'm reading DR, and then DB. I do not want to lose my family. I don't want to lose my wife.
I guess I don't have any specific questions right this minute. I'll wait to hear what you all think of how bad my sitch is.
And to top it off...now I'm getting bizarro mixed signals from her.
Reading through your email there are multiple issues at stake. I am glad that you are reading DB and DR. At this point, I urge you to speak to a Divorce Busting Coach to really focus on your marriage goals and try to get your marriage back on track. The expert professional one on one coaching will make a difference in your situation. There is much that can be done. Call me to discuss our coaching program. 303-444-7004
Roberta - I would very much like to. I need to get some financial ducks in a row.
Anyway, I'm having a hard time deciding what tact to take here. Am I the LBS at this point? Or do I have responsibility in playing into her possible feelings that she was recently LBS?
I have been placating to keep some peace, but I also feel like this plays into my "nice guy syndrome" (Also reading No More Mr. Nice Guy as suggested on another thread). I feel like I should be assertive, not controlling or demanding, but assertive.
I keep reading others say "don't leave the bedroom, don't leave the house," and that's what I want to do. If she wants to leave, then it's on her. I know, however, in my sitch, this will cause gnashing of teeth from her.
I need to gain / earn respect back here. I'm willing to work on the M / R. I'm working on myself, absolutely. I'm also ready to accept her at her word and GAL, LRT, and move on, although I don't want to.
Last night she said she didn't want me to sleep on the couch and welcomed me in bed. We weren't affectionate, but this morning as I got ready in the bathroom, she came in and gave me a prolonged hug.
Miiiiixxxxxxeeeeedddd signals.
I recently said, after our argument on Tuesday, that if she wanted space that involved us rotating in the house for the kids, I would be open to that.
I've now rethought that, and I don't want to leave the house at all. In fact, I don't want to leave our room. If she wants to leave, she's welcome to.
Thoughts on this stance?
I have to admit, that was not the story I was expecting. However, I knew a guy who once fell for the "I want to be with another woman while you weep softly in the corner alone." That didn't end well either. Frankly, at least you negotiated better than he did.
My WAW propositioned me for a 3-way with another woman a few weeks ago, at a wedding of all places. I knew of her curiosity from my recon so I played it cool when it came up as my W sat in the OW's lap as the OW explained how it would work. Based on my friends experience, and the devil look in their eyes, I played along but respectfully declined.
That all being said, I am not a vet and this has a whole other twist that I have so far avoided in my sitch. My initial impression, as an adult you should have known this was going to end poorly. I understand the initial thought made it sound good in theory. I at least had a friend who shared his story to help me miss that mistake. Not to say my W hasn't done it anyhow, just without me. Opening a marriage and not expecting it to go all the way open, tough call if you ask Captain Hindsight.
Any advice I would give beyond hindsight criticism would probably be wrong. This is where I step back, quietly, out of the room. I do intend to keep an eye on this. Sorry to be of no help.
A good man has got to know his limitations. Good luck, God bless.
Ok, after re-reading your story I have a little advice. You both opened the door on the marriage so you both need to take a step back and see what you want in a marriage going forward (can't change the past). Since you can only work on you, and CANNOT work on her, you need to realize you share blame in this, and I think you know that already. I'm sure you'll need an apology for not understanding her point of view regarding an opposite sex partner. Again, Captain Hindsight says that should have been seen as a possible reaction to your A. Know that if you're lucky she will talk about it and you'll have to eat crow when she explains all the things you did wrong.
Summary, you're both to blame. You can only work on you, so focus on you. Eat crow, then apologize and thank her sincerely for telling you what you did wrong. Continue to work on you.
If things continue to deteriorate beyond that, seek help from someone smarted than me. Good luck, God bless.
Update: I'll spare the long rambling of everything that's happening.
So, mixed signals, hugs, etc. Friday she tells me she's leaving for the weekend again. I say I've rethought things and I won't be leaving the house at all. She's free to as she wants, and is welcome at the house and to be with me and children. She was very upset about this and began yelling, and threw things. We briefly discussed support in the divorce, and I informed her she was wrong about the calculations.
I have children all weekend. We had a great time.
Sunday afternoon she calls. We spent a couple of hours on the phone. She is bringing up that me not being cooperative with the divorce, agreeing to fair splitting of everything, custody, etc. is "more of the same" and that if I really feel the way I claim to about her, love her, want to keep our family together and rebuild our marriage, then I wouldn't be 'treating her this way', and would be cooperative and fair in discussing our divorce.
She says she can't spend time with the children on the weekends because I am around. She wants alone time at the home and with the children and says I am forcing her to be away because she doesn't want to spend time with me. I personally call BS on all of this. If she wanted to spend time with the children alone on a weekend, I have no issue with that. She hasn't asked.
So...I have a consultation with a lawyer this afternoon, but I did send her a proposed 'nesting plan' this morning. Basically we switch off at the house each week, Monday - Sunday. She has our youngest during the days, so my week on she will arrive at the house by 7:20 am for him and I take the oldest to school and go to work. She picks up from school and has children until I'm home from work, then I take over and she leaves.
During her week on I arrive at the house by 7:20 am and take oldest to school, and she has the kids for the week.
I stated special events and holidays we can both be with kids or have access and make arrangements as needed. No non-family overnight guests at the family home.
The thing is, while this is being 'fair' to her, and giving her what she wants, and playing nice, and possibly showing that I am changing, it's not what I think is best for the kids.
I also feel I'm being manipulated. If I stand my ground and am assertive about what I think is best for our children and providing a stable environment, she argues that I am showing her who I really am and pushing her away. That I am not someone who loves her or is safe, and I am not someone she wants to reconcile with.
What's the DB approach here? I'm trying to be PMA and friendly and working on me, but I don't know how much to give and cooperate, and when to stand firm, whether it upsets her or not.
You said in your very first post that you saw the similarities in the stitches, but most posters here do not come from open marriages. Therefore, I strongly encourage you to make the financial sacrifice to get professional guidance from the DB Coaches available.
Sandi - Instead of viewing my sitch as unique because we had a non-monogamous relationship for a time, I think it would be more accurate to think of my M as having a history of infidelity on both sides. Mostly inappropriate communication, and very little PA or EA, although those have occurred recently.
The 'open' or non-monogamous portion of my M was brief, relatively, and absolutely a huge mistake that we both thought wasn't at the time.
I don't believe that I can't benefit from other's advice given my / our circumstances. As it stands now, we are trying the 'nesting' starting this week.
I think that if my M is to be reconciled, perhaps I need to give my W her space to figure out what she needs to figure out. I am continuing to work on me, seeing IC, examining my responsibilities and priorities, etc.
I am only asking for advice on how I should interact with my WAW, in light of my equal transgressions, but still very much the one that feels he is the LBS, and wants his M to change. DB and DR don't seem to address sitch's where both spouses have As, one in the past, one currently, etc. The books tend to lean on one spouse being faithful, and the other not.
"Sandi - Instead of viewing my sitch as unique because we had a non-monogamous relationship for a time, I think it would be more accurate to think of my M as having a history of infidelity on both sides. "
No, Sandi is right. See, you're STILL trying to control things. Now you're trying to control how YOU think people should see your sitch. It's like with your fooling around. When you wanted to do it, it wasn't seen as an A, but now your W wants to do it and you're saying it's adultery.
" DB and DR don't seem to address sitch's where both spouses have As, one in the past, one currently, etc. The books tend to lean on one spouse being faithful, and the other not."
They actually do. You are just looking for an exact answer for your specific problem. There isn't one although I've seen many people like your situation on these boards throughout the years.
Rather than disputing people's advice to you because you don't "agree" with them, how about listening for a change and try to see if there is any grain of truth that can be used.
You're not doing much listening right now.
Mr Bond - I do appreciate your input. I feel as though I haven't been clear.
"When you wanted to do it, it wasn't seen as an A, but now your W wants to do it and you're saying it's adultery."
My W was the first of the two of us to have an extra-marital relationship. Through discussion, and eventually consent from both of us, she began a physical relationship with a woman. This lasted on and off for about 2 years. Because of other issues in my W's past, this was a part of her sexuality she had denied and never explored.
Was this a good idea for our M? Probably not. But we agreed, and I consented.
She encouraged me, because of my higher desire sexually, to also develop a physical relationship, with a woman, outside of our marriage. I resisted for a while. Then tested the waters with a few dates, and nothing of ill consequence happened. I then developed a relationship with one woman, with my W's full knowledge and consent.
The issue my W eventually had with it, was the emotional closeness in that relationship.
I hurt her by not listening to her and dismissing her fears.
She then used that hurt to justify having a secret, hidden, lied about, PA with a man, without my knowledge or consent.
My reaction to that was not good. Although, I immediately ended all contact with the woman I was seeing. And asked that neither of us continue to do anything that would further damage our marriage.
She did not, and instead began communicating with and dating several men.
Does this help to clarify this situation?
I am not in denial about my actions or what I have done. I am listening, and weighing the advice I have received here, although I think the facts have been miscommunicated.
Prior to all of this, my W has at 4+ different times over the years, had inappropriate communications with other men, far before we ever had an alternative relationship. I had transgressed once before that with online communications.
So, please, tell me if you believe I am wrong. I feel it is more accurate that my M has been plagued with repeated infidelities of varying degrees, by both of us.
I, in no way, am trying to control perceptions, or downplay my responsibility in my M. It's not a matter of controlling how people see my sitch, it's that the way it is being perceived is factually incorrect.
Wait a minute. When you first came on here, you posted... "I began dating a woman, who was also married, with the full knowledge and consent of my W. However, this quickly became an issue because my W was uncomfortable with me and the OW closeness. My W then began to express desire to see other men, "
So what is the truth? Did you start it or did your W? THAT is important.
MrBond - I have been clear and honest about my sitch. The post prior to your last one explains who did what first.
Update:
Today I picked up S7 for school this morning. W had coffee in a to-go cup for me. I was gracious and said I appreciated it.
Later in the morning she texted me. Here's that conversation:
W: How are you today?
Me: I'm great.
Busy and productive morning. How are you?
W: Meh.
Me: Why meh?
W: Same reasons as always.
W: Lost. Sad. Lonely.
Me: It is difficult and distressing. I'm sorry to hear you're feeling like that. Anything I can do to help?
W: You don't feel that way?
W: No?
Me: I am sad. I don't feel lost or lonely. I have other feelings. I'm good though. If there is something I can do for you, or you want to talk about anything, I'm here. What do you want? What might make you feel better?
W: I don't know.
W: Why don't you feel those ways?
Me: I don't feel lost, because I feel I have been lost. I was in a fog about who I was and what I wanted, what was important. I don't feel that way anymore. I feel very clear about what is important to me and what I want. What I am committed to. And clearer about what I will accept and not accept from myself and others.
As far as feeling lonely...I don't feel lonely that we're not together. It's not a matter of lack of company or companionship. I am sad that you and I aren't connected. You are the most special person in my life. I feel deep loss.
I am thinking through a lot of things.
an hour later
W: I don't understand.
Me: what do you not understand?
W: Why you are not more upset. Why you aren't lonely. Why you don't feel lost going through this.
I didn't know how to respond. About to go see IC.
She texted again in an hour and said: I guess I am far from your communication priority today.
Thoughts? How should I respond? What is going on here? I thought I explained myself, and she acted as if I hadn't said any of what I said.
I'm not sure what she wants or needs here. I'm not sure what to say, or what I want to say.
Okay, so whatever alternative sitch you may have going on I'll put aside for the moment:
(I'm all for doing what works for you as a couple, no judgement here, but promises are promises and cheating is cheating, however it looks. The principles for DBing remain the same, I would think.)
Wow.
I think you projected just the right amount of empathy coupled with the stance that you will be ok with or without her.
You'd prefer "with", but you'll be all right either way. You let her know you cared, but you'll get through it. You didn't try and "fix" it for her or make her feel better about her circumstances. Which SHE chose.
Clearly this is bothering her, why you're not melting into a puddle of mush.
Good job being a strong and clearly communicating man.
I like it.
Yes. SHE IS far from being your #1 communicating priority. She wants out, she doesn't get to be #1 any more.
That's life.
You continue to be kind, but distant, and focus on yourself and your needs.
In my opinion, you were a bit TOO nice on the outset, but followed up nicely with your
"What's important to me/what I'm committed to" statement.
That has "strong man" written all over it.
The other R issues will need to be dealt with later on, the miscommunication and over-stepping of agreements, but for now this is a good start.
---(G)GGG
"MrBond - I have been clear and honest about my sitch. The post prior to your last one explains who did what first."
But you gave two separate answers as to your timeline which is important.
So just to be clear, you're now saying that SHE was the one who had a relationship with another person first and YOU began dating a married woman after that. Correct?
MrBond - Yes. Please re-read the last thing I posted about how our marriage became non-monogamous.
Update: Things have been going well(?). Last weekend W and I and children had family pictures done with a close friend on Sunday. Afterwards kids, W and I went for pizza. Pictures were a little weird / strained, but I did my best, PMA all the way. Pizza was good. Toward end, kids ran off to play and W and I talked for a few mins. I told her it upset me and hurt my feelings that she is dating. She said me not dating was something she is weighing in her 'decision'. She said she had a great day and wants to continue doing this (separated, sharing the house, trading each week)until the kids graduate.
All I could think was HOW UNFAIR. My thoughts were raging with how nice it must be for her to be doing what she wants, with a husband and father at home to keep the kids, do the laundry, make lunches, help with homework, cook dinner, read bedtime stories, while she dates, and stays out late drinking, and keeps me on the hook of 'I want a divorce, but maybe not, but I definitely don't want to reconcile or acknowledge my responsibility, and I'm enjoying dating...blah blah blah'. Cake eating.
YES - I realize this is victim moaning. BUT, I didn't say any of this to her. I just smiled, said I understand you feel that way, and continued with my evening with the children after she left.
Now, get this, it's my week at the house with the children. She watches our youngest during the day, and picks up oldest from school, then when I get home at 5:30 she is supposed to leave. I get home yesterday and she's all dressed up. Says she's going to a local musician's show with friends I know. Great, have fun! I say. I'm in the back of the house when she leaves.
Later, after dinner, I step out to my car, and there is a truck I've never seen parked in front of my house. Not my neighbor's house, directly in front of my house.
I texted W and said "do you know who's truck this is in front of our house?" and received no answer what so ever. W ignored me.
It was a guy she was on a date with to the show with OUR friends.
She had him park his truck in front of our house and ride with her. Came back by the house sometime between 1 am and 6 am to drop guy off to get his truck.
How in the world should I react to this? This morning, when she arrived at the house to watch youngest so I could take oldest to school and go to work, I was pleasant and didn't mention anything.
But, GEEZ, really?! I feel like I'm being majorly disrespected. How would any of you address this? I don't want to push W away, but I also don't want to be completely disrespected and walked all over.
She had this date park and leave his truck in front of our house to go on a date with me and our children at home.
And now, she is asking if I'll watch kids overnight on Saturday on her weekend with kids. No explanation why. I'm going to tell her I already have plans, and I'm going to be out of town. And then I'll actually go out of town.
I have to vent. She is being incredibly selfish, self-centered, disrespectful, and rude, to me and our family.
I don't know how to set a boundary here without being condescending or a jerk. This is not ok with me. At all. How can I convey that in a way that preserves my dignity and protects me?
Should I just not address any of this at all? Let her do what she wants? Let her treat me and our family like this?
"Cake eating."
It's not cake eating. She's just doing what she wants to do which is what you should be doing too. Just because she's doing something that you can't control doesn't make it cake eating.
"I texted W and said "do you know who's truck this is in front of our house?" and received no answer what so ever. W ignored me."
She went to a music concert right? She could very well have not heard the phone. Mindreading.
"It was a guy she was on a date with to the show with OUR friends."
How do you know this EXACTLY?
"She is being incredibly selfish, self-centered, disrespectful, and rude, to me and our family."
Didn't you do the same when you had your A? What makes this any different?
"I don't know how to set a boundary here without being condescending or a jerk. This is not ok with me. At all. How can I convey that in a way that preserves my dignity and protects me?"
You can talk to her about it but you can't force her to do anything.
"Should I just not address any of this at all? Let her do what she wants? Let her treat me and our family like this?"
Treat you like what? She's living her life the way she wants to which is what everyone wants. You are the one who allows the bad feelings to come up in you. You're just getting a taste of how she felt when you carried on with the OW. It doesn't matter that you stopped your own A. She had to deal with all of that too.
"Didn't you do the same when you had your A? What makes this any different?"
MrBond - I'm going to try to explain this one last time. I did not have an affair. The relationship I had with the OW was with the full knowledge and support and consent of my W. Eventually, my wife was upset and uncomfortable with the emotional aspects of that relationship. Now, I would agree this became an EA, and I ended it and have had NC since.
I also whole heartedly disagree with your reasoning here. So, if you wrong someone, make a mistake, and it hurts their feelings, then that person is completely justified in doing wrong to you?
I disagree. Period. If my W cheated / cheats on me, has an A, and she has in the past, then am I justified in doing the same?
No.
Period.
If you think anyone is justified in having an A for any reason, I must be clear and let you know that I do not see eye to eye with you on this.
I was never justified in doing anything to punish, hurt, or get revenge on my W for her transgressions, and conversely, neither is she toward me.
"Treat you like what? She's living her life the way she wants to which is what everyone wants. You are the one who allows the bad feelings to come up in you. You're just getting a taste of how she felt when you carried on with the OW. It doesn't matter that you stopped your own A. She had to deal with all of that too."
Yes, she did and is having to deal with fallout from my mistakes. However, I am appalled at your cavalier attitude that she is justified in returning the favor.
I don't think you understand my sitch at all. I am not trying to play 'victim' here, but for all intents and purposes, my current sitch is my W is a WAW and I am a LBS.
Please, stop replying to my thread.
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I texted W back after my IC appointment today, with a simple "I already have plans that weekend. I won't be available."
She responded with "Fine."
Then a few mins later "What are you doing?"
I don't think I'm going to reply. I'm planning on taking a trip out of town alone. Better to leave some mystery?
"I did not have an affair. The relationship I had with the OW was with the full knowledge and support and consent of my W. "
And I will explain this to you one last time. When you have sex with someone who is not your spouse, it's an affair. Period. The sooner you understand that, the easier your situation will be to fix. You said your W was hurt by what you did. That's how spouses feel when they are betrayed in a relationship. It's why you feel the way you do now. Why are you getting upset about this?
"I don't think you understand my sitch at all. I am not trying to play 'victim' here,"
Oh I understand it very well. I've seen many people with the exact same situation you've been in and I've seen what they did to save their marriages. You seem to only want to listen to what you want to and dispel the advice that you don't agree with.
She does have a right to do what she wants to just as you do. Does it make it morally right? Of course not, but you two already broke that rule when you both went outside the M and introduced other people. That's why your W doesn't feel the need to be bound my your moral attitudes at the moment.
I'll tell you one last thing. The main thing that saved my M and many others that have come and gone through this website is that we listened to any and all advice given to us. Especially the ones that we disagreed with. You can learn something from everyone.
In fact, DBing is about doing something different. Just because you interpret something one way (you saying your W is in an "A" and you weren't), doesn't mean that everyone (especially your W) has to agree with you.
Have you ever thought that what I tell you is what your W could be thinking? And that if you figured out a way to answer and change the challenges I bring up, that you situation could actually get better?
But hey, I saved my M. What you do is up to you.
MrBond - I read over some of your posts and threads.
I know I haven't been here long, and haven't detailed a lot of things. However, I am definitely in the I want to save my marriage and family but my spouse doesn't circumstance.
I'm open to your advice. Please, lay some on me. Appreciation in advance.
Right now, your situation is harder than most because both of you stepped out on the M. That's why I asked for clarification if it was you or your W who did it first. In your first post here, you said you were the first, then changed it to your W. It's not uncommon for the LBS to change their stories to make them seem like the victim.
Now, I said your situation is "harder" but NOT impossible. Don't make her relationship with the OM the sole source of your attention. I say relationship rather than an A because you were okay with carrying on with another woman who wasn't your W. That's the first thing you need to acknowledge.
Next, realize that she was hurt as well by you (as per your first post) and your emotional attachment to the OW.
So now that brings you back to Square One. What issues were there in your M? Write them all down. What were you like when you two first M'd? What are some things that you KNOW that others may not about her?
Detail these out and be objective. If you were an @$$ to her, then say so and explain how. Only then can we create solutions for you.