New thread (already?), new possibilities.
I'll post links to the previous threads in a bit.
Let me just tell you about my day because... well, wow!
at 7:30 this morning H texts me asking me if I could meet he and D at starbucks with her medication at 9:30. I agree.
I meet them and we hang out, chit chat about stuff, talk about a concrete visitation plan so we both can plan our lives better, etc.
This turns into me saying how I anxious I feel when I'm not with D7 and how much I miss her when she's gone, etc.
H listens and suggests options for me to have her more until I find a solid job and that he understands and doesn't want me to feel that anxiety. Wow. That was so helpful!
We chat a bit more about things here and there.
Then somehow H mentions how he needs to get a real bed for D at his place because last night the air mattress burst and blah, blah, blah. This makes me immediately think about how long all this is going to last and permanent furniture means permanent things.
I talk about how so often I just want a temperature check to see what's going through his head (with the caveat that he is under no obligation to share, I was just expressing myself) and I wanted to know if he was ok, whether he was considering our marriage at all, etc. I said all of this very casually and kept reinforcing the caveat that he need not say anything he is uncomfortable discussing right now.
He started to say that he is still "dead inside". That he harbors a lot of anger.
He said he went to see an IC but the therapist seemed to be super bitter about his own divorce and seemed very resentful and angry and didn't seem like an unbiased third party so he decided to stop seeing him after the first session. Wow.
He is seeing another IC whom he says is a little more balanced and has talked about there being no thought of considering the marriage until he has found his own happiness within himself and worked through that anger. He said the therapist theorized he had PTSD. From me. That's kind of hard to take.
My first instinct is to pooh pooh that entirely but perhaps its an insight to the damage I've done and how sensitive H really is despite my ideas. Something to look at further, even though it sounds extreme and hurts a lot.
So, H says he doesn't seem himself coming home for 6 months or much longer. I told him I completely understood because now that I knew what he was working towards it made sense.
I asked him if he felt like he could work through that anger and trauma while living at home and he said he didn't think he could. I told him I understood and could see how the space would be very helpful and that it was in fact helpful for me to see things from a distance and allow me to take ownership of my role in things.
For the first time H said he'd realized that he played a role in the demise of our marriage. I mean, he didn't say it flat out but it was enough for me to know he'd realized it.
He's angry. He's resentful.
We talked a bit about resentment and I explained how I was handling my own by trying to let it go because it was weighing me down and that holding on to it does nothing but poison my own thinking. I was just expressing my perspective and told him as much. I told him working through resentment and anger is crucial and that I supported him and respected the work he was up against in that endeavor.
We talked about what we thought were our BIGGEST problems in our marriage. I said I thought it was our mutual reactivity and lack of ANY form of resolution to any problems. He said he wasn't exactly sure but that he knows he's unwilling to be made to feel the way he was for the last few years.
I did a lot of listening, eye contact, validation not because it showed him anything but because I wanted him to feel heard. I KNOW that I wasn't ignoring his feelings anymore. It was important for me to show him and for him to feel like his words and feelings were valid and important.
After this talk at Starbucks we came back to the house and he made D lunch. He sat at the piano and played for a bit. I could always gauge his mood by what he played. A week before he moved out he played something that was so dark and sad I sat on the floor and cried. I knew he felt lost and angry and empty inside. Today's song was somber but slightly more hopeful, I think. I don't even think he noticed that but I sure did. I'm taking that as a positive sign of things.
D got changed and we headed out to the karate studio grand opening. D was signed up for a big class and I was photographing it for future advertisements and the website. It went well.
Afterwards we came back to the house. H took a nap on the couch (he said it was the best sleep he's had in 3 months) and I did some laundry while D played with the dog and her toys.
At around 4:30 I proposed we all go out to dinner just for fun. He agreed. We went to a favorite restaurant and D started to misbehave. I think she was hungry and exhausted from the heat. H came down super hard on her which is unusual but I reinforced his standards while also being able to be loving which is a dynamic I've not been afforded in the past. I've always been the regulator while he's been zoning out in the corner. This was a very nice change.
I ordered a glass of wine, he ordered the same and changed it to a bottle which I was surprised by. So, it wasn't just dinner it was DINNER. We ate, laughed, arm wrestled with D (she can almost beat me!), finished her piano homework and decided to take a walk across the shopping center to get cupcakes.
WE picked out cupcakes, watched the live band and hung out. The band dedicated a song to D (she's a music fan, is quite musically talented and was watching the drummer and bass player the whole time and the band noticed), H was showing her details of the songs they were playing (he's a composer) and all was amazing with the world in that moment.
I drove home, hugged D and off they went. He said he had a really great night and we left it at that.
I really saw it as a positive day. A day I really needed.
I understand the pain H is dealing with and I want him to deal with it faster but that isn't up to me. He needs his own time to do his thing. I can only hope through time, space and therapy that he'll see that we can be AMAZING with effort.
It was against DB principles to go in for a temp check but I feel like it was received well and very honest. I'm going to keep on working on me so that I know I am in a place that is strong enough to be who I need to be should he decide that our marriage is worth saving. That's kind of complicated but it made sense as I was typing it.
I'm reaffirming my stance to stand. I'm worth it. He's worth it. We're worth it.
^^
Great day.
I'm pleased for you, and I think you did fine with the temp check. It didn't sound pushy, the way you wrote it, so I think it's okay.
I'm happy for you.
So so happy for you ss. It really sounds like you needed a day like today. You did a great job listening and validating. And do not worry about breaking DB rules by temp checking. Remember, they are guidelines. Everyone is different. Sometimes I think we all become slaves to the rules at the expense of our own situations.
At any rate, I just wanted to let you know your day put a smile on my face.
Keep it up!
Hi Ss, it sounds like a great positive day!
I love that you were able to take a heavy conversation and turn it into a great all day outing!
Don't worry too much about his 6 month + timeline. It sounds like things are going in the right direction and now you know better what he is thinking and working on perhaps you can also work on 180s related to that.
The ptsd thing is interesting. I can't imagine what you could have done to him that could cause that but maybe he is just super sensitive..?
Anyway, good job Ss! And have a nice rest of the weekend!
Hugs, Lisa
Thank you guys for all the cheerleading and support. I really look to you all for support and guidance and I thank you for always being there for me.
Listening to so many of your stories has made me realize that many of the marriages I see everyday that seem to be ideal or strong or solid... maybe they just aren't.
I see the ease that so many men reach for their wives hand which used to indicate to me REAL strength in a marriage for some reason. It spoke so much to me.
Now I wonder. Maybe I'm becoming cynical but I think it's more about the reality that EVERY MARRIAGE IS HARD! No one has it easy and if they do, either they are 1 in a million or they're in denial and it's just a matter of time before their bomb is dropped. I don't know.
I ran into an old friend today who knows H and I are recently separated. He saw H and I together at starbucks yesterday. He asked me today how 'things are going'? We talked a bit and he told me that he and his wife, who look INCREDIBLY solid, I mean UNWAVERINGLY SOLID, were separated for 6 months at one point and a year at another point right before their daughter was born.
I was shocked! We talked about how marriage is hard for everyone and requires work individually and collectively every single day.
It was refreshing to talk to someone with similar experiences. His encouragement was so nice to hear.
He also said that H and I were "so good together" and then joked that H is crazy if he throws me away. He was being nice but I needed to hear that at that moment.
After all that, I just want to say that I honestly don't know where I'd be with all of this if it weren't for this forum and all of you. I need the raw 2x4s, the encouragement and support and I hope that I'm able to give even a 1/10th back of what I've received.
You give a lot back, Ss. Thanks!
My parents used to say, "You don't know what goes on behind closed doors." It's so interesting to me that when I think about other Rs in my social circles-- there is a lot of dysfunction. A lot of controlling W's, couples that are co-parenting but seem emotionally detached. I've finally realized that "everyone has their Sh!t". EVERYONE. My friend who seems so totally grounded and emotionally stable and has all her sh!t together? Well, suffice it to say that she's had her share of problems and has gotten plenty of professional help for that.
That must have been so nice to have that validation from your friend-- you are the spouse only a fool would leave!
Ss, that is such good insight!
The one negative thing that I thought when I read what you wrote is yes, a lot of relationships have troubles and marriage takes work. But then why can't our foolish WASes see that instead of walking away we could work on our issues?
I also read some statistics the other day about infidelity and how it is very very common and something like 2/3 of couples that face adultery get past it and stay together. I could be wrong about the stat, but it was an interesting article.
My step mom once told me that the most important thing to making a relationship last is that both people are willing to work.
If things don't work out with my H, for sure next time I am going to look for someone who understands this and is willing to stick around and work on issues when things are tough.
Hope you are having a great day Ss!
Hugs, Lisa
Lisa,
I'm no expert but I when I think about the times i was willing to walk away from our marriage and not work on it, it was for a couple of reasons:
1. I thought H would never change, never understand what I needed.
2. The resentment was too great on both sides and there was no way I could see us actually working through that to get to the other side.
3. It was just too hard. I was always under the impression that marriage should be hard but not THAT hard. I was wrong.
In the end though I never did leave so at some point I figured I should either accept the marriage as it was and make small changes in myself to view the marriage differently (the problem with this is that the resentment kept building so I'm not sure how long that plan would have lasted) or leave.
The problems felt so insurmountable that even looking at ONE of them made me so exhausted. It felt like leaving was the ONLY way to get away from the dysfunction, sickness, resentment and get what I really wanted which was a true partnership built on love, trust, dedication, health and support.
I can't speak for other WAS but I almost became one myself so I can speak a little bit about it.
Lisa & Claire said everything I thought... And I always appreciate success stories.
Ss06, thank you for sharing that insight into the motivations behind a WAS. It reinforces the idea for me of making the road home smooth, showing the changes (but not speaking of them), and not showing resentment.
for sure next time I am going to look for someone who understands this and is willing to stick around and work on issues when things are tough.
It would be great if we all knew what we would face in the future and had the same definition of tough, wouldn't it? Some people in abusive R or in R with active addictions think they're just sticking it out through the bad patches when in fact, they should be getting the he!! out.
We think we've faced the toughest thing but there may in fact be things far tougher. All we can do is accept that life is full of toughchallenges and be prepared to meet them to the best of our abilities. Let go of blame and shame and work on us. We can come out the winners in this.
And sometimes, a M is not to be saved.
^^^^^^^
Yes. I thought by finding someone whose parents were still together (mine were until my Dad's death) then this person would work through anything. As I used to say, divorce was not an option. That is until I truly realized it takes 2 to make it work and 1 to decide it didn't. I wasn't expecting that life lesson:-)Some people do work through everything and some don't. I agree with Labug. We never know what he future holds so it's best to realize we don't control it. Deal with things as they come.
Calling an available vet!
I'd love for 25years or another vet to weigh in on my slight developments.
I have found my inertia, I have a pretty good PMA most days, I am feeling good, job hunting, practicing yoga, really enjoying time with my D and time with H (though I'm trying to limit those a bit because I don't want to inundate him).
There is so much out of my control but I feel like I'm on the right path here.
I'm giving H plenty of time and space to work through his anger. He's not even thinking about the marriage at this point, he's trying to heal himself. I get that. I've created a lot of damage in my wake.
We get along quite well. We haven't exchanged a cross word in quite a while. We hang out well in public and in private. We are GREAT coparents.
Still, I'd like to know if there's more I can do on myself and in my situation.
Thoughts vets?
I am not a vet, but I've asked a similar question...and the answer was always, "this is a marathon, not a sprint".
For whatever that's worth.
where is that fast forward button on life again? Oh yeah...
You're right, Claire.
I'm not really in a rush, I just want to know if there's anything I'm perhaps missing that I could work on more and grow more. Not really about getting H back so much but more of a thorough self-analyzation. Does that makes sense?
Totally. I'm using this "gift" of time to get myself to be the best person I can be so that this doesn't happen again!!! Whether i get back with my H or not, issues will come up in my next R. It's what I've learned and how I've changed that will make the difference.
Are you in IC? That's the place I would start to figure out what work you can do on you...
Hi Ss-
Obviously I'm not a Vet either, but here goes..... What strikes me about your situation is that you've only been physically separated for a little over a month, but it seems like you have a lot of positives going for you. The fact that your family had such a nice day together this weekend seems like a big plus to me. I would say you shouldn't mess with what seems to be working right now.
If you can scrape the funds together maybe a DB coach could give you some insight on "next steps". My situation is different of course, but my coach was briefly mentioned the possibility of "family time" as being helpful at some point, and that might be appropriate in the future for you as well. It's painful for my budget right now, but I find it soothing to actually have an "action" plan.
Ss, I concur. You've spent a ton of good time with your H. Sometimes it's like reading about a happy family. Seems like it's time for a coach.
Hi Ss, I am with Claire that you just have to keep plugging along on making yourself a better person and taking care of yourself. But maybe a vet has some deeper words of wisdom for you.
This marathon can be quite long...
I do have a coach and she's awesome. I was trying to space out my sessions to get insight when I'm super stumped but there's no harm in a check in session, right?
I FEEL so different, like I could never be the women he dropped the bomb on 2.5 months ago. BUUUUT, we all know that's not true. It just doesn't work that way, right?
I haven't felt like this in years. Seriously. I am much more positive, light hearted, kind for no reason and fun loving. When you make changes for the better, you just want to share them with people you love so I'm feeling antsy but I realize it's a good problem to have and I'm sitting back and trying to chill.
This separation has REALLY cleared a fog out of my head and my heart. I see how reactive I always was and how reactive he always was. Knowing that can bring about change but when faced with what feels like an attack, I can only HOPE that I'd do what I'm learning to do which is to take the time to step away, analyze what I need to say in a kind way and work towards a solution to the problem at hand.
We never SOLVED our freaking problems. It was like they were unsolvable so we stopped trying completely. We'd apologize but it was more of an apology for our behavior during the fight, not anything else. THIS WILL CHANGE but since we're not fighting (YAY!), it's hard to practice that.
So I'm guessing (if I were a vet, what would I tell myself?) that right now is a time to breathe in the good that is happening. I don't want to be all up in his face with family time but I did invite him to a "friendly outing" in October where D has an event/party thing that goes until midnight. I'd hate to waste that and sit at home alone on the couch.
He accepted the invitation but reluctantly. I think he thought I was asking him on a date, with expectations of romantic expressions. I reassured him (even though it hurt that he physically recoiled) that it was just a fun night out. I know he's not ready for anything else right now and frankly, I'm not sure I am either.
Positivity. I'm basking in it.
BTW, H was over briefly this evening and he told me I smell great. That's a big deal because he is clearly trying hard not to compliment me, I think more as a self preservation thing. I'm not taking it personally but it's good to know he likes my new perfume.
I bought it with him in mind.
Ss, that all sounds great! I know what you mean about the fog lifting due to the S, as I feel the same way about my situation. I still wish the S hadn't happened (and that it would end soon), but I think my perspective is much clearer now because of it.
Re: solving problems, everything I've read about long-term relationships says that all couples have unresolvable problems. The difference between couples who are happy and couples who are unhappy is that the happy couples learn how to manage those differences. I definitely see where my H and I had good intentions, but we tried to manage our differences in different ways -- which led to a lot of unintentional miscommunication and hurt feelings. One of the things I'm working on now is to accept the differences and not be intimidated by them.
And yay for getting him to agree to some 1:1 time in October. I see lots of positives in your interactions with your H -- keep it up!
Ooh Ss what new perfume did you pick?
Sounds like you are doing GREAT with PMA!!! I'm happy for you!
And good for you for seeing the ways you can change your behavior and interactions for the better. Keep those in mind going forward and you are sure to do well.
I'm really happy you are doing so well! Keep up the great attitude!
Hugs, Lisa
Your PMA is always so good I hardly ever know what to say to you.
Keep up the great work!
How is the job search going?
Find a thread 25 is posting on and leave her a msg.
Patience seems to be my word for the day. So,
Patience.
Thanks so much you all!
My PMA is really great. I feel like I'm glowing which I'm not sure I've ever felt before. Want to know my secret?
GOOD MUSIC!!! Seriously, it changes everything for me. I should post my playlists because I can't tell you what this music is doing to heal my heart (first rule of thumb, NO ADELE!).
And sometimes, just rolling down the windows and rocking out to Stevie Wonder simply changes the chemistry of my thoughts. It's hard to say "woe is me" when you're rockin' out!
Lisa, the perfume I got is Ralph Lauren Romance (not to be mistaken for Ralph Lauren Midnight Romance!). It's feminine, slightly citrus-y (less lemon/orange more pink grapefruit) and every so slightly floral. Perfect for me.
Maybell, the job search is steady. Who knew I was so freaking over-qualified for every job out there? It's like a curse but I'm being patient. If I didn't have a child, I'd take the first thing that came along no matter the commute but that's just not an option so a job that's local seems to make things harder. It's hard to be patient but somehow I am.
labug, I love seeing you around my thread! Patience is definitely something I am learning through this process.
It's funny how you have to be patient while you learn to be patient. It's like the universe is laughing at me while I figure that out.
Off to go find 25.
Definitely no Adele! All those songs are about heartbreak!
Love the advice about good music. I've been listening to the podcast "Downtown Soulville" -- highly recommended as a pick-me-up. Music, friends, exercise, being outside in nature -- these things do seem to help. Glad you're doing well and finding the things that bring you joy.
Oh I think I need to be set straight.
Who was it that was talking about how the little things completely throw us off our paths? One text exchange and I'm spinning a bit. Not a lot but a bit...
I think after the recent talk with H about him needing time to see his IC and to get over his anger and his Ss-induced-ptsd, I've been choosing the see only the positive in all of that but perhaps I'm not being realistic.
Here me out here:
I see myself as rather rational at the moment. Clear headed and grounded. I feel I see our situation as it actually was. We had HUGE problems. Insurmountable problems. 18 years of unresolved stuff. Some of that will never get resolved, I realize that but some of the other stuff I now have a guide on how to address it at least. This is BIG because so much of our marriage was stagnant because we had no idea HOW.
1. I am finding myself resentful that I am STILL the one coming up with solutions. He always just kind of sat there stunned with no solutions, even when pressed and pushed. He just couldn't come up with any while I always had a list of ideas. Therapy. A retreat. Date nights more often where we focused on connecting. This book. That book. This technique. That idea. None of it worked for more than a few days because not only did I have to come up with the idea, I had to implement it and encourage it and maintain it. ALWAYS.
2. I am not under the illusion that I was an amazing wife and H is completely nuts for wanting a D. No. I get it. What I don't understand is his incredible fragility.
One of his complaints was that I emasculated him. I won't deny it. I have thought about this a lot and I think the reason why was my sick way of motivating him to be MORE of a man. That clearly backfired and didn't work but I kept doing it. Dumb. Arguably abusive, in fact.
Isn't H's severe fragility and "ptsd" sort of self-emasculating? Call me out on this if you disagree or have a different perspective, please!
I can understand being hurt. I can understand feeling "dead inside" but once there is a solution proposed that seems like it could actually work and makes good sense, doesn't that help heal? Not for H. He's still "dead inside".
I guess Iam feeling like he's soaking and festering in his resentment and anger and fragility and "ptsd". Does that make sense? At what point does he get up and say, "I want to feel differently and I have control over that!"???
He has no desire to change his mental perspective. It's just down, down, down, all the time. It's draining to be a pessimist but it's draining to be married to one, too.
Perhaps I'm belittling his feelings, that isn't my intention.
How do I honor his feelings while still wondering if he's acting like a victim who is self-emasculating himself in the process??
And I suppose there's no way to actually call him on that, huh?
Nope. Didn't think so.
All of this came about because my BFF, her husband and her 9 week old daughter are coming into town this weekend. They are technically our best friends in the whole world but since the separation H has decided they are "my friends". Ok. How noble of you.
They are coming into town and want to see him and have him meet their new daughter. I texted him to tell him this.
H Ok, I'm assuming I'll stay clear.
Me: Why?
H: They're your friends - and I want to honor that and it's your weekend with D. There's no reason for me to be there. Even though I'd love to meet [baby], it seems like a social mine field. I'll be out and about anyway.
This made me think that he's mentally separating our friends already so maybe all my positivity is misguided. These are our best friends in the whole world. H and I have successfully hung out as a couple (sort of) with other friends who are less important but he can't bring himself to hang out with our best friends and their new daughter?
Is he embarrassed? I don't think so.
Ashamed? I dont' think so.
So WTH?!
Should I take a risk and text: "well, you're welcome to enjoy take out sushi and wine with us on Sunday if you're around"
I wonder what separations were like before texting.
Hi Ss, I too have wondered what this stuff was like before the coldness of texting!
I can't really say for sure what you H is thinking but here is my 2 cents: yes invite him to sushi and wine but no don't do it now. Wait until Friday or something. Don't push. Obviously he feels awkward about meeting up with these friends for whatever reason and maybe he is just grumpy today. Let it go, don't stress over it.
See how things go and later this week you can casually include him in plans. But try not to get too hung up on whether he accepts or not.
Maybe he just can't face these people he considers your closest friends because he thinks they are mad at him.
Try not to let it get you down!
Hugs,
Lisa
H Ok, I'm assuming I'll stay clear.
Me: Why?
H: They're your friends - and I want to honor that and it's your weekend with D. There's no reason for me to be there. Even though I'd love to meet [baby], it seems like a social mine field. I'll be out and about anyway.
This made me think that he's mentally separating our friends already so maybe all my positivity is misguided. These are our best friends in the whole world. H and I have successfully hung out as a couple (sort of) with other friends who are less important but he can't bring himself to hang out with our best friends and their new daughter?
I may be way off, but I saw this as a positive. He came to you, and basically was asking you if he could be around when your friends were in town. He was IMO, looking for you to ask him to come along. Think of it this way. You are having a house party, and there is that one guy who arrived early and is just hanging around the food. He hovers and hovers. He will not dare take a bite, but is waiting for you as the host to insist he grab something. He may even refuse a time or two. But he wants that food.
I would reply in a fashion you suggested. And I would do it sooner than later. Replying now is replying to his inquiry. Replying on Friday is YOU asking.
You're right, Claire.
I'm not really in a rush, I just want to know if there's anything I'm perhaps missing that I could work on more and grow more. Not really about getting H back so much but more of a thorough self-analyzation. Does that makes sense?
Are you in counseling? What did forgiveness look like in your childhood? For many of us, it's a learned skill b/c we did not see it growing up.
I suggest you do some thinking there b/c I doubt you are as far as you need to be (who is?).
It's nice when you and your h can have conflict free times. But life WILL give you some conflicts so what will happen then? How will YOU handle it differently?
When you are in the midst of an angry moment, it's hard to react in a new healthier way. Practice...seriously, practice. Find a good positive role model to help you replace the Things "NOT TO DO" in fights, with Things TO DO" in fights.
it's well and good to know what not to do but in the heat of the moment if you have not replaced the old behaviors with new better ones, you may easily revert to an old pattern.
My guess is that would send your h off to the hills forever. Forgiveness work is a life lesson we could all use. I think it's a concept barely taught to us though in church we'd hear about it. No one really said HOW to do it though...
Just a thought...
I'll have to read your thread again to get more specific. More later...
Oh I think I need to be set straight.
Who was it that was talking about how the little things completely throw us off our paths? One text exchange and I'm spinning a bit. Not a lot but a bit...
I think after the recent talk with H about him needing time to see his IC and to get over his anger and his Ss-induced-ptsd, I've been choosing the see only the positive in all of that but perhaps I'm not being realistic.
Here me out here:
I see myself as rather rational at the moment. Clear headed and grounded. I feel I see our situation as it actually was. We had HUGE problems. Insurmountable problems. 18 years of unresolved stuff. Some of that will never get resolved, I realize that but some of the other stuff I now have a guide on how to address it at least. This is BIG because so much of our marriage was stagnant because we had no idea HOW.
1. I am finding myself resentful that I am STILL the one coming up with solutions. He always just kind of sat there stunned with no solutions, even when pressed and pushed. He just couldn't come up with any while I always had a list of ideas. Therapy. A retreat. Date nights more often where we focused on connecting. This book. That book. This technique. That idea. None of it worked for more than a few days because not only did I have to come up with the idea,
I had to implement it and encourage it and maintain it. ALWAYS.
1) what would REALLY happen if you did not do it all? Did you ever try NOT handling it all?
2) isn't the reason it did not work for long b/c you stopped and or b/c it required his participation, HIS buy in?
So without it, with just you "Solving it all", it never really was solved, correct?
What do you make of that?2. I am not under the illusion that I was an amazing wife and H is completely nuts for wanting a D. No. I get it. What I don't understand is his incredible fragility.
One of his complaints was that I emasculated him. I won't deny it. I have thought about this a lot and I think the reason why was my sick way of motivating him to be MORE of a man. That clearly backfired and didn't work but I kept doing it. Dumb. Arguably abusive, in fact.
Isn't H's severe fragility and "ptsd" sort of self-emasculating? Call me out on this if you disagree or have a different perspective, please!
Hard to say. Your bias in the story here may be coloring my view. But yeah it seems like a self fulfilling prophecy now. AND probably some sort of habit he picked up by abdicating. It meant less conflict and less of you badgering him, but then, well, he got used to it. Now you are saying "But I'm different!" and the implied statement that comes next is "So YOU should be different too!"
And I doubt it'll work that linearly. He'll need time to believe it and to see that if you really do back off and Not make all the choices, some things won't get solved and that will either have to be okay w/you, or he'll have to step up to the plate...
otherwise this is NOT new behavior. It's just you waiting to decide if HE is acting fast enough or the way you want him too, quickly enough and YOU will decide if and when YOU will take over or what?
I think YOU have to be willing to let him fail for awhile, and probably not ever bring it up.
IF IF IF he wonders why something did not get handled you can say you thought that was what he wanted and you were determined not to take over...
hopefully some mature rational discussions will take place about when and if he wold prefer for YOU to handle something and when he'd wants a Joint decision.
I can understand being hurt. I can understand feeling "dead inside" but once there is a solution proposed that seems like it could actually work and makes good sense,
doesn't that help heal? Not for H. He's still "dead inside".
He's waiting for the emotions to come first and THEN he'll "ACT" the way the new emotions allow. But that's like waiting for happiness to land in your lap.
But we can ACT our way into feelings...it's like how some actors behave physically and mentally, in a way their character would ---and THEN they feel like crying. They act and THEN They feel.
I think Shawn Achor and Amy Cuddy did some short talks on this in those TED TALKS videos. Shawns was on Positive Psychology and Amy Cuddy's talk was about "Faking it til you BECOME it" and both topics touch on this issue.
Look those up and see what you think. It'd be a good issue for his IC to address (and NO, you cannot suggest that).
I guess Iam feeling like he's soaking and festering in his resentment and anger and fragility and "ptsd". Does that make sense?
At what point does he get up and say, "I want to feel differently and I have control over that!"???
WHEN HE HAS TO...b/c no one else can/will do it for him.
He has no desire to change his mental perspective. It's just down, down, down, all the time. It's draining to be a pessimist but it's draining to be married to one, too.
Perhaps I'm belittling his feelings, that isn't my intention.
How do I honor his feelings while still wondering if he's acting like a victim who is self-emasculating himself in the process??
You GAL like a maniac. You radiate optimism and exude inner contentment.
You believe it b/c it's real for you. And you let that show. He'll either want to get on board your ship or he'll choose to fester and wallow in his victimhood.
As long as you can demonstrate with your lifestyle and behavior, that happiness IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY and that we CAN MAKE ourselves happy,
(& you do this, by doing it) then that is all you can do.
And I suppose there's no way to actually call him on that, huh?
Nope. Didn't think so.
If he ever ASKS you why you two are far apart or something that resembles a question about HIS attitude,
You can stress that the big lesson you learned thru this ordeal, and for which you remain eternally grateful, is HOW TO BE HAPPIER. Don't tell him he's wallowing, b/c as the source of a lot of his pain, originally at least, it's too self serving for you to say that.
Besides, you're showing him the way, will always be more powerful.
All of this came about because my BFF, her husband and her 9 week old daughter are coming into town this weekend. They are technically our best friends in the whole world but since the separation H has decided they are "my friends". Ok. How noble of you.
They are coming into town and want to see him and have him meet their new daughter. I texted him to tell him this.
H Ok, I'm assuming I'll stay clear.
Me: Why?
H: They're your friends - and I want to honor that and it's your weekend with D. There's no reason for me to be there. Even though I'd love to meet [baby], it seems like a social mine field. I'll be out and about anyway.
This made me think that he's mentally separating our friends already so maybe all my positivity is misguided. These are our best friends in the whole world.
I think you are doing some mind reading here. Try not to so much.
He may feel ashamed and not want to see them now, OR maybe he's paving the way into his new "Single life" as you fear.
But I'd reiterate that they love HIM too, they're not 'mad" at him. Maybe have the man of the couple invite him out. In fact, you could arrange it so he can see them without you around. After that, drop it.
Don't assume that you are reconciling in your behavior towards him. Do NOT do another temperature check, please... I think he's getting scared off. Please do not ask him how he feels again.
I believe very much that the fastest way to cool a R is to keep taking its temperature.
If he says he's "dead inside" again, you can be puzzled but more in the "gee that's too bad for you b/c I"m more alive now than in a long time"....
H and I have successfully hung out as a couple (sort of) with other friends who are less important but he can't bring himself to hang out with our best friends and their new daughter?
Is he embarrassed? I don't think so.
Ashamed? I dont' think so.
So WTH?!
It's one of three possibilities. He IS ashamed in some way, and OR he doesn't want you to keep seeing you guys as a couple,
AND or some other mood or reason you'll never comprehend or ever guess.
IF it's one of the first two reasons, then your best bet is to GAL happily and see if he can see them without you, and then drop it.
If it's neither of those first 2 reasons, drop it now b/c you'll never guess and it may not matter.Should I take a risk and text: "well, you're welcome to enjoy take out sushi and wine with us on Sunday if you're around"
I wonder what separations were like before texting.
I'd remove myself from the equation and let him see them without you, if you really want to know whether it's you he doesn't want to play husband with, or NOT do that, and drop it now,
if you are not ready to see that answer/behavior.
My GUESS and that's all it is, is that he is pulling back partly BECAUSE you've gotten along well enough and he thinks you believe a reconciliation is right around the corner. He is not ready for that.
IN fact, it probably benefits him to keep saying he's "dead inside" to reduce expectations from you, so he does not have to do anything to alter his course.
Inertia is now deeply engrained in him. Maybe it took all his energy to leave, and he's plumb worn out now, emotionally.
In any case, backing off seems like the wisest course of action here and now and for the near future.
So I would not repeat another question by text. If you really want to talk to him about it, pick up the phone and tell him - they really want to see him and you do not want to be the reason he doesn't.
Offer to step aside so you see them at a different time.
Only do this if they really do want to see him and if they are really comfortable without you being there.
I mean, make this authentic and a sincere effort on your end, and theirs (if they are not as close to him, don't lie or make them endure an evening of moping)
Just show that you can graciously step aside for him to see "YOUR" friends b/c they are not property in your name only. They are mutual friends and I assume that's how they see themselves, right?
Good luck. Don't over analyze or you will not have nearly as much fun.
First let me say, LisaB & Pilot, thank you.
Your opinions on whether to invite H, though different, were perspectives I really needed. Thank you for weighing in.
25 years- Thank you so much for stopping by. It's like opening a window wide open when you stop by... airing out all my BS thinking and helping me breathe clear air again.
No I am not in IC outside of my DB coach. Perhaps I should look into it but I feel I am handling things rather well. It can't hurt though, right? Our insurance isn't awesome so it'll be pricey. Just something that is always in the back of my mind.
What did forgiveness look like in your childhood?
This is an interesting question and one I should explore further. I was raised catholic so forgiveness was a strong theme BUT my mother was HORRIBLY abusive and my father absent for much of our childhood (he didn't leave us, he was just an obsessive workaholic). My mother always apologized for the beatings and words she used to say and we were "required" to forgive her. It was just assumed that we would. We were actually afraid not to forgive her.
If we did something wrong, we'd apologize and she'd "forgive" us but it was ALWAYS brought up again and again, never really forgiven. So she was "worthy" of forgiveness but we never were. So I guess it's fair to say that forgiveness was more of a double standard.
Issues much? Yeah, that's me.
When you are in the midst of an angry moment, it's hard to react in a new healthier way. Practice...seriously, practice. Find a good positive role model to help you replace the Things "NOT TO DO" in fights, with Things TO DO" in fights.
it's well and good to know what not to do but in the heat of the moment if you have not replaced the old behaviors with new better ones, you may easily revert to an old pattern.
^^^^ I totally agree. Practice will be helpful and I am observing marriages left and right to see what works and what doesn't seem to work so well with different personalities and baggage. I wish I had more direct ability to practice but that would mean fighting with H and I'm NOT ready for that and he's definitely not ready.
You're right, he'd run for the hills. Permanently.
I'm not sure if you're alluding to me forgiving him (for leaving me?). Is that something I should be working toward at this juncture? I'm asking, not implying otherwise. Am I there yet?
Oh I think I need to be set straight.
Who was it that was talking about how the little things completely throw us off our paths? One text exchange and I'm spinning a bit. Not a lot but a bit...
I think after the recent talk with H about him needing time to see his IC and to get over his anger and his Ss-induced-ptsd, I've been choosing the see only the positive in all of that but perhaps I'm not being realistic.
Hear me out here:
I see myself as rather rational at the moment. Clear headed and grounded. I feel I see our situation as it actually was. We had HUGE problems. Insurmountable problems. 18 years of unresolved stuff. Some of that will never get resolved, I realize that but some of the other stuff I now have a guide on how to address it at least. This is BIG because so much of our marriage was stagnant because we had no idea HOW.
1. I am finding myself resentful that I am STILL the one coming up with solutions. He always just kind of sat there stunned with no solutions, even when pressed and pushed. He just couldn't come up with any while I always had a list of ideas. Therapy. A retreat. Date nights more often where we focused on connecting. This book. That book. This technique. That idea. None of it worked for more than a few days because not only did I have to come up with the idea, I had to implement it and encourage it and maintain it. ALWAYS.
1) what would REALLY happen if you did not do it all? Did you ever try NOT handling it all?
2) isn't the reason it did not work for long b/c you stopped and or b/c it required his participation, HIS buy in?
So without it, with just you "Solving it all", it never really was solved, correct?
What do you make of that?
I honestly believe that if I didn't do it all it wouldn't get done. It would just sit and fester and grow mold and smell bad and we'd be back where we are. But you're right, me doing it all didn't work and me not doing it all didn't work so what are my options?
This is a BIG fear of mine. Being damned if I do and damned if I don't. I can carry the torch all I want but if he just sits there and watches me where does that get US? And asking for his participation is just more of the same which makes him roll his eyes and point the finger at me so where does that get US? And what if he commits to participate and cooperate but stops after three days (which is his M.O.). It's like he becomes paralyzed and is mad at ME for it.
Granted, I am assuming a little bit here that he would continue to sit and stare at me busting my arse to fix this marriage. Maybe he'd actually do something but I have no evidence to support that surmising. I can only change ME but how do I handle this if DOING didn't work and NOT DOING didn't work???
2. I am not under the illusion that I was an amazing wife and H is completely nuts for wanting a D. No. I get it. What I don't understand is his incredible fragility.
One of his complaints was that I emasculated him. I won't deny it. I have thought about this a lot and I think the reason why was my sick way of motivating him to be MORE of a man. That clearly backfired and didn't work but I kept doing it. Dumb. Arguably abusive, in fact.
Isn't H's severe fragility and "ptsd" sort of self-emasculating? Call me out on this if you disagree or have a different perspective, please!
Hard to say. Your bias in the story here may be coloring my view. But yeah it seems like a self fulfilling prophecy now. AND probably some sort of habit he picked up by abdicating. It meant less conflict and less of you badgering him, but then, well, he got used to it. Now you are saying "But I'm different!" and the implied statement that comes next is "So YOU should be different too!"
^^^ I am trying really hard to NOT think like this. His changes are HIS to make and HIS to live. Mine are mine. It's how they meet that will be the true testament of whether this can work which is why I'm determined to not be the weakest link.
We definitely need a plan (IF we should ever get to that point) on how to do the "working on the marriage stuff".
It's sick to me how we fought about everything, including working on our marriage. UGH!
And I doubt it'll work that linearly. He'll need time to believe it and to see that if you really do back off and Not make all the choices, some things won't get solved and that will either have to be okay w/you, or he'll have to step up to the plate...
otherwise this is NOT new behavior. It's just you waiting to decide if HE is acting fast enough or the way you want him too, quickly enough and YOU will decide if and when YOU will take over or what?
I think YOU have to be willing to let him fail for awhile, and probably not ever bring it up.
IF IF IF he wonders why something did not get handled you can say you thought that was what he wanted and you were determined not to take over...
hopefully some mature rational discussions will take place about when and if he wold prefer for YOU to handle something and when he'd wants a Joint decision.
^^^I hope a mature, rational discussion can occur, too, 25. At this point, that's the ONLY thing I can think of that would work. Otherwise it's just more of the same from me which isn't working.
I can understand being hurt. I can understand feeling "dead inside" but once there is a solution proposed that seems like it could actually work and makes good sense, doesn't that help heal? Not for H. He's still "dead inside".
He's waiting for the emotions to come first and THEN he'll "ACT" the way the new emotions allow. But that's like waiting for happiness to land in your lap.
^^^ I think you're right and it's frustrating. Not only happiness to land in his lap but resentment to just fly away on its own. GRRRR!!!
But we can ACT our way into feelings...it's like how some actors behave physically and mentally, in a way their character would ---and THEN they feel like crying. They act and THEN They feel.
I think Shawn Achor and Amy Cuddy did some short talks on this in those TED TALKS videos. Shawns was on Positive Psychology and Amy Cuddy's talk was about "Faking it til you BECOME it" and both topics touch on this issue.
Look those up and see what you think. It'd be a good issue for his IC to address (and NO, you cannot suggest that)
I guess I am feeling like he's soaking and festering in his resentment and anger and fragility and "ptsd". Does that make sense? At what point does he get up and say, "I want to feel differently and I have control over that!"???
WHEN HE HAS TO...b/c no one else can/will do it for him.
He has no desire to change his mental perspective. It's just down, down, down, all the time. It's draining to be a pessimist but it's draining to be married to one, too.
Perhaps I'm belittling his feelings, that isn't my intention.
How do I honor his feelings while still wondering if he's acting like a victim who is self-emasculating himself in the process??
You GAL like a maniac. You radiate optimism and exude inner contentment.
You believe it b/c it's real for you. And you let that show. He'll either want to get on board your ship or he'll choose to fester and wallow in his victimhood.
As long as you can demonstrate with your lifestyle and behavior, that happiness IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY and that we CAN MAKE ourselves happy,
(& you do this, by doing it) then that is all you can do.
I can do this. I really can. I guess what you're saying is to continue to give him time and occupy myself by GAL.
I must say that I exude happiness because I FEEL IT. I have my ups and downs but mostly I am up and I'm not faking it. I have become it for sure. I'm proud of that. I am taking your advice, 25. I have a cooking class tomorrow with a friend, I'm yoga-ing like a crazy woman, joined a separated/divorce support group, considering self-defense classes and I actually looked up our local flight school (it's a bucket list thing for me and you're my inspiration).
And I suppose there's no way to actually call him on that, huh?
Nope. Didn't think so.
If he ever ASKS you why you two are far apart or something that resembles a question about HIS attitude,
You can stress that the big lesson you learned thru this ordeal, and for which you remain eternally grateful, is HOW TO BE HAPPIER. Don't tell him he's wallowing, b/c as the source of a lot of his pain, originally at least, it's too self serving for you to say that.
Besides, you're showing him the way, will always be more powerful.
^^^ this is can do. I won't say that he's wallowing but I can explain how *I* became happier.
All of this came about because my BFF, her husband and her 9 week old daughter are coming into town this weekend. They are technically our best friends in the whole world but since the separation H has decided they are "my friends". Ok. How noble of you.
They are coming into town and want to see him and have him meet their new daughter. I texted him to tell him this.
H Ok, I'm assuming I'll stay clear.
Me: Why?
H: They're your friends - and I want to honor that and it's your weekend with D. There's no reason for me to be there. Even though I'd love to meet [baby], it seems like a social mine field. I'll be out and about anyway.
This made me think that he's mentally separating our friends already so maybe all my positivity is misguided. These are our best friends in the whole world.
I think you are doing some mind reading here. Try not to so much.
He may feel ashamed and not want to see them now, OR maybe he's paving the way into his new "Single life" as you fear.
But I'd reiterate that they love HIM too, they're not 'mad" at him. Maybe have the man of the couple invite him out. In fact, you could arrange it so he can see them without you around. After that, drop it.
Don't assume that you are reconciling in your behavior towards him. Do NOT do another temperature check, please... I think he's getting scared off. Please do not ask him how he feels again.
I believe very much that the fastest way to cool a R is to keep taking its temperature.
If he says he's "dead inside" again, you can be puzzled but more in the "gee that's too bad for you b/c I"m more alive now than in a long time".... cool
No more temperature checks. ROGER 10-4 on that good buddy!!
No more assuming that we are reconciling with my behavior. I have absolutely been doing that (how'd you know?!). No more. Just exude happiness, let it seep through my skin and my bones and my heart. I know it's having a positive impact on my D so I know it's where i need to continue to be.
I fear that if I say something like, "gee, i'm more alive than i've been in a long time" it'll allow him more victimization because he looks at me like "yeah, you killed my heart, so happy you're all alive and happy."
It's like he enjoys being so broken. That's insensitive. I don't think he ENJOYS it but he definitely gets something from letting me know I've made him "dead inside" repeatedly.
H and I have successfully hung out as a couple (sort of) with other friends who are less important but he can't bring himself to hang out with our best friends and their new daughter?
Is he embarrassed? I don't think so.
Ashamed? I dont' think so.
So WTH?!
It's one of three possibilities. He IS ashamed in some way, and OR he doesn't want you to keep seeing you guys as a couple,
AND or some other mood or reason you'll never comprehend or ever guess.
^^^ It's the bold above for sure. The idea of us as a couple is repugnant to him (ouch) right now. I can see now how some of my behaviors have been sort of pushing this couple idea on him more and more. I need to stop that.
IF it's one of the first two reasons, then your best bet is to GAL happily and see if he can see them without you, and then drop it.
If it's neither of those first 2 reasons, drop it now b/c you'll never guess and it may not matter.
Should I take a risk and text: "well, you're welcome to enjoy take out sushi and wine with us on Sunday if you're around"
I wonder what separations were like before texting.
Oh and 25, I absolutely watched those two TED talks you've recommended above and in the past. I watched them weeks ago and they've really been a great source of wisdom from which I've been able to jump from. In fact, D and I do a power pose every morning to start our day.
Just didn't want you to think I glossed over that part of your suggestions.
i need to have my kids watch that video with me too. Our realtor told me she watched that video before sales negotiations.
Sounds smart to me.
See, like a "genie" she appears.
See, like a "genie" she appears.
Yep!!!
Ss, I just read your response to 25 and you sound a lot like me when my H left. I had all the answers, he did nothing, I kept it together blah, blah, blah.
I agree with 25 and to go further, it seems you still see yourself in the "save the day" mode and in order for the M to work he has to come around to your way of thinking. Is that true?
From my M, my H and I have common interests and individual interests. I tried to get him to like everything I liked, I thought that's what couples did. Wrong. Unrealistic and controlling expectation. I discovered during our time apart that I could do all those things with friends, I didn't have to drag him along or get POd if he didn't have the same enthusiasm for David Sedaris that I did. Being attached at the hip is not what makes a great R. I don't know if this was a factor in your M but I think most of us have some version of this.
I've learned I let my H be who he is and in doing that he's been more willing to meet my needs. Oh the wicked date night, that brings back bad juju for me. I can remember crying on the phone to H after he left "All I wanted was for you to take me out to dinner occasionally." (that's really not ALL I wanted and he knew that) Now if I want a date night, I suggest it. He also suggests things. I'm not waiting on him to make me happy or do things that I enjoy. When I stepped back and gave him room he became an active partner in the R.
And (25 will love this) I quit keeping score. No more "you never" or "I always." No bringing up crap from ancient history.
Another factor, no grading of their performance and I'm not talking about sex. Our Hs may do things differently but it doesn't mean it's wrong. And if no one gets killed then let it go.
I don't worry about or remind him of his doctor appts. I don't comment on his food choices (well, last week I did mention the amt of preservatives he eats. As it came out of my mouth I knew I shouldn't have) I don't remind him about doing things around the house. I don't finish his sentences, I look at him when he talks and try to really listen. (I'm 50-50 on that one)
This has been a huge change for me and as you can see above it's not always easy and I make mistakes. But one negative drop in a sea of positives is less hurtful than a sea full of negatives.
You can do this.
Wow -- labug, this is terrific advice! Being able to drop things (like reminders about dr's appts. and food choices) is something I also need to do, if I get the chance in the future with H. If not, I feel like I've definitely learned from this, and will be able to give my partner more space to handle his own choices and the consequences.
SS -- I did a lot of the same "rescuing" and "running the household." I think my H felt emasculated by it. He says he is happy to be living on his own now because he can do his own laundry and "be a big boy." (!)
I do wonder, however, if I would have treated a different person the same way. My H has ADD and is VERY forgetful, so things like appointments and bills would fall on my shoulders. Honestly, I think it would be a relief to be with someone about whom I wouldn't feel like I'd have to worry about those issues...
But if H does come back, I'm going to have to drop the reins and let him handle those things on his own, even if he handles them poorly by my standards.
But if H does come back, I'm going to have to drop the reins and let him handle those things on his own, even if he handles them poorly by my standards.
Ahoy, my H already handles these things on his own, I've always refused to be his mother. ;-) They are big boys, they can do it!
Ahoy, my H already handles these things on his own, I've always refused to be his mother. ;-) They are big boys, they can do it!
Can I get an amen!
I made a post that seems to have disappeared into the etherwebs but basically it was a post about understanding that I need to fix this marriage without talking about it. A true challenge but one I am up for. Then I think labug said there was a book out by that same titled, which I have no purchased.
There is still work to be done.
I also posted about a strange convo with H yesterday about attending a birthday party for a 6 year old boy we know. It went like this:
H: So if it's ok, I'd like to ask your permission to go to the birthday party tomorrow.
Me: You're asking my permission? Why? You were invited, too.
H: Well I just thought that since it's your weekend with D that...
Me: Yeah but that doesn't mean you're not allowed to see her at all, right? You were invited to his party and if you want to go, great. If you aren't planning on going, great. We are going and I bought a gift.
H: Ok, well, I didn't want to infringe on your weekend.
Me: It's not infringing and I think it's weird to ask my permission for you to go somewhere you were invited to go. It's not like we don't get along or something like that.
H: Yeah, I guess. So, if it's ok, I'm going to go to the party.
Me: Great.
H: Ok. thanks.
I feel like this behavior is completely out of the blue. It's like he's acting as if we haven't been laughing and having a great time out with friends for the last two months.
What is this about?
I'm feeling a little like this is a little bit of the story he's writing entitled, "the victimization of Ss' husband". I want to smack his face a la Cher in Moonstruck and say "Snap Out of it!".
So we went to the birthday party today and he's hanging out with D to help her with piano homework and to decorate the exterior of the house for Halloween (she so excited!). I'm assuming he'll stay for dinner but he'll probably be very weird about it... something along the lines of "if it's ok, I wouldn't want to put you out, if it's ok with you, maybe I should leave you two alone" craziness. I guess he's trying to be polite and respectful? right? It just feels like he has no self-respect in his effort to be polite and respectful. I don't know. It just feels weird.
Jeez, I hope this posts. I'm ready for this board to be done with maintenance already.
Ss, I don't know if you saw my response but I think you're mind reading, and that's not good for you. Also, maybe it's lost in translation, but it sounds like you were a little aggressive with him when it didn't seem necessary. Just something to consider. Keep it short and positive when in doubt
Also, a technical tip. If you're posting while the board is in maintenance, copy and save these posts to your computer or phone. Any post made right now will probably be lost before maintenance is finished.
You are rocking it overall. Keep working on yourself. Don't waste this opportunity to make changes for you. Your WAH is lucky to have a W willing to fight for him, even when he doesn't necessarily deserve it
What is it with the DB forum maintenance? I've never seen another forum go through so much maintenance.
SS -
I don't know you're entire story and I'm sure this post will get lost but for your text conversation with H. Do you think there was anything you could change? To me it came across like after you told him he didn't need to ask permission you guys kind of went on about it. If you're trying to be dark I would have left it with a... Sounds great, we already got a gift, we will see you there!
I struggled with being right and had a lot of conversations similar to yours. Too many words. Instead of pointing out he was invited (he knows that) I would have just said something short when he asked if he could go.
Again, I don't know your sitch and I'm not vet but just my .02
Card, got it. Short and sweet when in doubt. That's a pretty good rule of thumb. I need more practice on that. A lot more.
TO, you're right. I struggle with having to be right and it's even hard to admit that because it means I don't want to be wrong and admitting it means just that. Hahaha. Sometimes I don't even realize I'm fighting that battle.
His asking permission to attend the party could have been a great opportunity for me to say, "Oh yes! We'd love for you to be there! See you then." Instead, I made it about trying to change his perspective when he was just trying to be overly polite. D'oh.
Sometimes I'm ashamed by how much TIME I need to think about a certain situation to see it from a different perspective, namely H's. It's like my side is so ingrained in my head and I'm so freaking stubborn. Gah. How do you unlearn stubbornness?
The best way to learn is to make mistakes, reflect on them (perhaps with feedback from others), and try, try again.
So... you are up to step 3: Next time you get an opportunity, try to handle it a tiny bit differently. (Maybe the first change you can make is to hit pause before you respond to any texts so that you can think it through?)
You are on the right track!
That convo was actually over the phone, not text. Via text I am GREAT at taking time and thinking about my response really carefully. My verbal reactivity (something I SERIOUSLY need to work on in ALL relationships) completely gets in the way of my verbal editing skills and I just say what's on my mind because it feels "authentic". I need to stop being so "authentic". LOL
Ss, this is what 180's are all about. It will take time and repetition to make them habits, and then more time and repetition to make them part of your personality. Don't get down about backslides, but also don't ignore them or forget to reflect on them and learn from them.
To me, you've already done the hardest thing (at least with this particular trait): Identify and acknowledge your problem. Some people will go their whole lives and never see their flaws. They always believe everything is everyone else's fault. The multiple-divorce demographic is littered with these people.
Re lost posts
Yes, those posts are lost but maybe it's helpful that you try to recall what spoke to you.
Let go of the back story and just communicate with your H. Every conversation doesn't have to contain a lesson or manipulation.
"if it's ok, I wouldn't want to put you out, if it's ok with you, maybe I should leave you two alone" craziness. I guess he's trying to be polite and respectful? right?
What's that about for you?
The question to ask is "Why does it bother me?" That's your work. His feelings are his to figure out.
Being in a R with another person, any other person, requires that we respect their feelings even when they differ with ours. Doesn't mean we feel the same but their feelings are just as true to them as our are to us.
All very helpful advice, guys. I thank you.
I want to figure out WHY I'm so verbally reactive. What am I protecting? Why am I so fast to assume the worst? I really need to explore this and practice more. I wonder though if the WHY isn't so important. I just need to figure out how to stop. Completely.
Is it weird to have a friend push my buttons on purpose so I can practice my responses? I'm kidding. Mostly.
H has stated he wishes I were more empathetic. I wonder if that's where I should start. I definitely lack empathy (but I promise I'm not a sociopath) and I know where it comes from. Boy, there's a lot of work to do here.
Ok, things I'm working on to be a better me:
1. Empathy - Put myself in other people's shoes BEFORE responding and stay there. I need to stop feeling like everyone is always complaining which evokes an internal "eye rolling" response within me.
2. Reactivity - I need to STFU and stop defending pansies with an ooze. The angst in my chest that makes me want to respond with anger and sarcasm and defensiveness usually screams louder than any sense of calm or call toward empathy. I have to figure out what that is all about.
This is where it really begins. I'm on to something big here. This is super hard. Small steps though, so I can REALLY make this part of my personality like you said Card.
I'm no psychologist, but there is no magic pill or technique to suddenly become more empathetic. Just sustained effort and time. Maybe you could start an "empathy journal", where you journal interactions with WAH, and anyone else, where you were or could have been empathetic. This might not be your learning style, but when I started the "reaction journal" for WAW (per DR), I quickly picked up on what was and wasn't working. If you kept one, it would become easier and easier for you to consciously pursue empathy during a conversation. Eventually you could pursue empathy when you might normally have a very aggressive, self-serving response. Keep it up for years, and that's how you change your personality.
An "empathy journal" is precisely what I'm going to do, Card. Perhaps a "reaction journal", too. Strangely, for me, they seem to be related. My lack of empathy makes me react. Blech. What ugly personality traits
I am not a patient person so reading "keep it up for years, and that's how you change your personality" makes me feel like I'm never going to get there but I will. And it will take years.
With your "reaction journal", Card, do you find that sometimes you have to fake it so you can get there? I'm curious about how others clean up their reactions.
Hi Ss! Missed you!
I have to say I am quite reactive also and have a hard time biting my tongue. People who are stupid and annoying really set me off and I have a hard time not biting their heads off immediately.
I wish I had words of wisdom for you, but the only thing I try to do is shut up and take a deep breath. It's a process... Also I try to avoid annoying people and situations if I can, that way I don't have a million annoyances in my life. That might sound very simplistic but I realized that I have quite a few friends in my life that can be highly irritating, and although I love them I should not spend too much time with them or I become irritable.
Others have said meditation can help with stopping reactive behavior. And of course exercise.
As far as empathy, well, you seem caring and empathetic to ME! You are always helping and giving great advice to people on here. And honestly your H sounds like a bit of a wimp... The PTSD thing still has me flummoxed. So maybe it isn't empathy you need, but just a calmer way of talking with him.
Hope you are doing well!
Hugs, Lisa
Aww, Lisa, I missed you too!
I've always said that stupidity should be painful because there'd be a whole lot less of it around. Stupid and annoying set me off, too but I have to admit, when it comes to people I love, I am short with them when they don't think like me or do things the way I think is best.
I'll admit, I'm efficient, effective, have incredible forethought and a great task master on all accounts BUT all of that has very little to do with feelings.
Plus, I'll admit, I'm a bit prejudiced against men. I know that sounds weird but I swear my father didn't have an unplanned emotion and I noticed that very early on. I think I've built on the understanding that men are less emotional so I've mentally decided that men are emotionless. Talk about a gross over generalization that is clearly just not true.
When speaking with H, I have to constantly remind myself that the man has feelings. That he's not just a brilliant composer who is also a confused, ADHD lump constantly looking for his keys. There are feelings and thoughts and hopes and expectations there, too. I have been BAD about seeing him as basically human and I'm so ashamed by that realization.
I'm under no illusion why he left. It hurts but I've never been more clear on what I need to do.
Add to that
Hi Ss,
My "reaction journal" was actually a journal of her reactions towards my words/actions. I started it in the middle of my pleading/begging/chasing/needing stage after BD. From the journal, I quickly saw how all of those things were hurting my chances. I drove her further away, etc. I didn't have to keep the journal long because those were relatively easy traits for me to change, since they were coming from emotion and not my normal personality.
For you, the journal would need to be long-term. And yes, you would probably have to fake it for a while. It will take a very concerted effort. If you stick with it, it will become more and more natural, but the tendency will be deep inside of you for a long time. I know some people apply the Years-Months rule towards marriage reconciliation (however many years you've been together, that's how many months of doing it right it will take to have permanent change)...maybe it could be applied to this. However many years you've had limited empathy (36?), that's how many months of concerted effort to change it will take before you can truly say you're empathetic.
I fully admit that I made that last part up, but it makes sense to me when you are talking about personality change.
Also, I recently saw something that Daniel Dennett wrote (an atheist philosopher...I am as Christian as they come, but it is foolish to think you can't learn something from someone of a different faith background. Plus, the quote really has nothing to do with atheism):
How to compose a successful critical commentary:
1.You should attempt to re-express your target’s position so clearly, vividly, and fairly that your target says, “Thanks, I wish I’d thought of putting it that way.
2.You should list any points of agreement (especially if they are not matters of general or widespread agreement).
3.You should mention anything you have learned from your target.
4.Only then are you permitted to say so much as a word of rebuttal or criticism.
Notice that the first 3 out of 4 steps are empathy-based! Now think about most humans' natural tendencies when it comes to conflict (me! me! me!), and it is no wonder that marriages fall apart so frequently. These rules are probably meant more for philosophical or scientific debate, but I don't see why they can't be applied to conflicts within relationships.
Wow, Card. It's like you're here for me today. Thank you! Mr. Dennett's 4 questions REALLY are a good basis for breaking down understanding, showing empathy and it's also a start of validation. Impressive. I'm going to put them into my journal and refer to them frequently.
Your time table also makes sense. So much of my reactivity just feels like it happens. Like it's more than just a habit that's hard to break. It feels uncontrollable but I know that's not true with conscious effort and awareness.
We were married 12 years at BD and I can easily see how AT LEAST 12 months of effort is necessary to show him that I'm serious about these changes but I also am fully aware that it will likely take longer. I've done serious damage.
I do love how the process of change requires you to defy just about everything you know as truth or learned through your childhood. You don't have to be defined by all that if you're diligent enough to make the change and make it stick.
I had a terrible night and morning. Really backslid on my detachment. So I've had to turn to the good folks at DB for perspective, encouragement and even a 2x4 if someone offers it
Ss, I think a lot of us ladies here struggle with being reactive communicators. I know this is an area I am trying to work on, too, even though my H never said specifically that it was an issue. It's just something I've never liked about myself.
Have you read Non-Violent Communication by Rosenberg? There are some useful ideas in there though I find them tough to implement. Understanding triggers is important but so too is shifting the goal of communication - away from trying to get your point across and towards being genuinely curious about the meaning in the other person's words. I guess that's kind of like #1 in Card's list.
ganb8te, that's another great look at it. I think the challenge for most conflicted marriages, though, is that if you do start using techniques like that, it will be extra challenging because the other person is probably not being that reasonable. If you can get to a point where you both pursue that communication, that's when things could really change.
It's not just the ladies. I struggle with being a reactive communicator too.
Thanks for the tip on the book.
We're all stupid and annoying to someone, somewhere.
I think the reaction comes from being afraid of just that, we aren't as perfect as we think we should be (we each have to figure where that came from on our own) so we lash out at those who trigger that fear in us.
Usually those who trigger us share a trait that we don't like in ourselves. When we begin to recognize and accept our shortcomings we can accept the same in others.
We're all stupid and annoying to someone, somewhere.
I think the reaction comes from being afraid of just that, we aren't as perfect as we think we should be (we each have to figure where that came from on our own) so we lash out at those who trigger that fear in us.
Usually those who trigger us share a trait that we don't like in ourselves. When we begin to recognize and accept our shortcomings we can accept the same in others.
yes, I did just double post.
Labug-- I just figured it was such an important sentiment that we all needed to read it twice!
I've realized that I definitely trigger stuff for my H...and of course he triggers stuff for me.
Ss... I am not as good of a composed thinker on my feet, while my WAH was a successful debater back in HS. So, I've learned to rehearse possible interactions and responses (sometimes while walking home which I'm sure makes me look like a nut), sometimes by writing a draft. And I try to avoid on the spot in person conversations, OR, if I have to, to slow the pace of it down by very calmly saying, hmmm, let me think a minute. Or... "I'm not sure, I'll need to think that through and get back to you".
Taking things at face value has also helped, which is something you seem to need to work on, too. That way, a question like, "is it ok if I come to the party" can be answered simply instead of turning into a bigger discussion of something else entirely.
yes, yes, yes. It's good to hear that I'm not alone in my reactivity. It's not something I like about myself though I'll admit, I always felt it was justified (if he wouldn't attack me, I wouldn't react!). Little did I know that I, in part, provoke the "attack" by my constant defensiveness, offensiveness, black and white thinking, ignoring his feelings or failing to recognize that he even HAS feelings at all.
Claire, I'm starting to rehearse possible interactions and responses (my daughter definitely thinks I'm a nut, she asks me a lot in the car, "mom, who are you whispering to?"). I know my first step is to get to a place where I can say "let me think a minute" or "let me get back to you" because right now I'm not even there yet. The words just come flying out of my mouth before I can even think about catching them let alone taking a time out.
Plus, I've noticed that my fight or flight response is so intense in these moments that the ONLY clear thought in my head is my defensive or attacking thought. Everything else is foggy and in that moment I'm not sure I could even tell you what we were are arguing about. I'm only now realizing how much of the last 12 years has been mentally foggy because my brain thinks I'm fighting a saber tooth tiger when all H said was "is it ok if I come to the party?".
I've always blamed H for being negative (and he is, very) but my instinctual response is to blame and attack which makes me think that I don't automatically assume the best or even neutral... I just assume he's attacking me or blaming me so I shoot back so fast it'd make anyone's head spin.
Taking things at face value, Claire, is my new motto. My excessive mind reading and over thinking has only proven to get me in trouble and they are always wrong. I'm stopping that. Face value is where it's at.
Thanks for all of your help. I can take baby steps on my own but with all of your help I keep a better pace on my path and I like that.
Just a thought and Claire, this may work well for you but for me it was something that was toxic. A defense mechanism from the past that I had to jettison.
"I'm starting to rehearse possible interactions and responses (my daughter definitely thinks I'm a nut, she asks me a lot in the car, "mom, who are you whispering to?"). I know my first step is to get to a place where I can say "let me think a minute" or "let me get back to you" because right now I'm not even there yet. The words just come flying out of my mouth before I can even think about catching them let alone taking a time out. "
So what do you do when the conversation doesn't go the way you rehearsed? I have a feeling this relates to your fear-based prickly responses.
What if I don't know the answer? I won't say the right thing. I'll sound stupid. Someone will get the better of me. Everything hinges on this one conversation.
Does any of this ring a bell for you, Ss?
It's good to hear that I'm not alone in my reactivity. It's not something I like about myself though I'll admit, I always felt it was justified (if he wouldn't attack me, I wouldn't react!). Little did I know that I, in part, provoke the "attack" by my constant defensiveness, offensiveness, black and white thinking, ignoring his feelings or failing to recognize that he even HAS feelings at all.
You are definitely not alone. I struggle with this, too. H has a mouth like a razor and I felt justified in snapping at him occasionally. I was always frustrated that he never saw his role in it. But, now I realize that I can only control ME, right? I'm working on it. I read a book about listening this summer, that has helped some, but it's still an inner struggle not to snap sometimes.
Ss,
Benefit of the doubt was a huge complaint my H had about me. A question like "have you done X yet?" sounded to me like a major judgment and criticism, instead of him just simply trying to check things off our shared checklist.
So I am working on that.
Labug-- I get what you are saying. For me, it's not so much about the conversation needing to go a certain way, but more like me just thinking through some phrases or even facial expressions (I practice smiling since I tend to have a b!tchy resting face!), and gain in confidence that I can hold my end of a tough conversation without taking any bait or getting defensive.
rppfl you can make him aware that his razor mouth sets you off.
labug,
Basically when I rehearse I only rehearse worse case scenario to help me control my behavior. If things go smoothly, then I'm prepared for that as well but I need to rehearse my response to his negativity, perceived attacks, sharp tongue and blaming.
Basically my rehearsal is more self talk of calming myself to respond appropriately. So I guess it's more of a pep talk to remind myself of my tools and to remind myself to use them when I feel like I can't breathe, my heart starts to pound, my tongue turns into a razor blade and my palms start to sweat. These are all signs to me that I'm getting worked up and about to strike and it's in this moment that I struggle most with stepping down and listening, empathizing, validating, etc.
Does that make sense, labug? It's not planning out the scenario for me, it's more rehearsing MY reaction when my body goes into fight or flight mode.
Claire, I have RBF (resting bitch face), too, but ONLY when around H. I also wear my thoughts on my face which has always served me poorly when playing poker. Facial expression if HUGE for me, too. I can say, "I understand" or "That must be really hard" but my face says, "really? this is an issue for you? could you be more of a child?"
Gotta stop that NOW!
rppfl you can make him aware that his razor mouth sets you off.
Not if he won't admit that he has one.
Other people recognize it, including his parents, sister, and children. Just not him. It's me who has the character flaw for snapping, he was just innocently and politely expressing his preferences.
Is that the verbal form of RBF?
Is that the verbal form of RBF?
LOL, yes! But when it's a man, it's RJF (resting jerk face)
Claire, I have RBF (resting bitch face), too, but ONLY when around H. I also wear my thoughts on my face which has always served me poorly when playing poker. Facial expression if HUGE for me, too. I can say, "I understand" or "That must be really hard" but my face says, "really? this is an issue for you? could you be more of a child?"
Gotta stop that NOW!
We share the same affliction.
You can do this! and when you get to a better place with H you can have a talk about it. I have with my H and now he gets it.
But I also had to work diligently on taking each conversation at face value and not dragging my story into it. I created much of my own unhappiness.
labug,
Basically when I rehearse I only rehearse worse case scenario to help me control my behavior. If things go smoothly, then I'm prepared for that as well but I need to rehearse my response to his negativity, perceived attacks, sharp tongue and blaming.
Basically my rehearsal is more self talk of calming myself to respond appropriately. So I guess it's more of a pep talk to remind myself of my tools and to remind myself to use them when I feel like I can't breathe, my heart starts to pound, my tongue turns into a razor blade and my palms start to sweat. These are all signs to me that I'm getting worked up and about to strike and it's in this moment that I struggle most with stepping down and listening, empathizing, validating, etc.
Does that make sense, labug? It's not planning out the scenario for me, it's more rehearsing MY reaction when my body goes into fight or flight mode.
Yes, it makes sense. You're afraid of losing control of the conversation. I would work on just listening right now, the empathizing and validating can come later. Baby steps.
I love these conversations about resting bitch face. Too funny!
It's interesting for me to read these discussions about new ways to communicate with your spouses to improve the relationship in the future. What's weird is that I am jealous! I read about these struggles to improve and I wish I could identify. It makes me realize there is really little to nothing I can change about myself that would help my communication with my WAH. We never really fought and I have resting happy face... haha. He said I was too nice, too complimentary and too easy to get along with...?!
Not to say I cannot improve myself or my communication skills - quite the opposite indeed. It just wasn't a problem with my H.
The potential to change and make yourself a better person and communicator should really fill you all with hope for the future!
Hugs, Lisa
But I also had to work diligently on taking each conversation at face value and not dragging my story into it.
Oh, labug, how often you enlighten me. I did this very thing with D16 last night. She made what she probably thought was a simple request and I made it fit into a whole backstory, although I didn't realize it at the time. Sometimes her mouth is just sooooo similar to her dad's that I react poorly. After I read this, I sent her an apology text. Thank you. The next step is recognizing it before I need to apologize......
... A question like "have you done X yet?" sounded to me like a major judgment and criticism, ...
Oh man, I need to put that on my 180 list, too. That's exactly how I feel. My first reaction, regardless if it's done, is, "Quit micromanaging me."
We never really fought and I have resting happy face... haha. He said I was too nice, too complimentary and too easy to get along with...?!
Lisa,
I am dumbfounded. I wonder if your being "too nice, too complimentary and too easy to get along with" means he felt guilty finding fault with you over the years so he felt just leaving and being the bad guy would be easier? Gosh, I could mind read my way through that for years...
... but in the meantime, all you can do is BE you. His judgement or criticism of your niceness says WAY more about him than it does about you. Granted, it's still rejection and that's not easy to swallow.
I'm seriously shaking my head thinking of your H. What on earth is going on with him?
I think that's really the kind of thing that only someone in an affair fog would say.
... A question like "have you done X yet?" sounded to me like a major judgment and criticism, ...
Oh man, I need to put that on my 180 list, too. That's exactly how I feel. My first reaction, regardless if it's done, is, "Quit micromanaging me."
I see it as nagging, which gets no one anywhere. There are 1,000 other ways to phrase this in order to gain information.
I will say though that if H said this to me I'd know it was just to gain information and not to criticize me or nag me. He may even preface it with "I'm not trying to nag, I'm just curious if you've done this yet". I have to TRUST that he's genuine in his attempt to gain information. If he's not, that's his problem. My job is to take it at face value, right? Not easy for sure.
If my H had been able to say, "I don't mean to sound like I'm nagging, just curious" that would have been a game changer. He usually would pose those questions just as we got into bed.
Put me in a sexy mindset for surrrrrre.
And by sexy mindset I mean that I then spent the next 30 minutes stressing and feeling like a total failure as a mom, wife and human. It was totally awesome.
Wow. Great discussion over here. Not only are we all reactive communicators but it seems many of us have RBF as well!!
Actually I have LBF (listening bitch face) and I only figured this out 2 weeks ago when I was working in Tanzania. After we'd conducted a focus group a Maasai lady told me (in Swahili…needed translation) something to the effect of "We love you...but you look angry…when we see that we think we have said something wrong. When you smile along with us, we are happy." Whoa! And to think I was really thinking about my body language and trying to show that I was engaged in the conversation. Then I realized, when I am listening intently I tend to frown!
So now I am practicing trying to keep my eyebrows in place or even up while smiling! But at least now I don't feel like such a goof knowing that there are others out there who are working on your happy faces, too ;-)
Ss, Elsa - you are both right. His complaints were coming from the fog. He couldn't think of very many bad things to say so he just said "you are too easy/boring, I don't feel a spark". I should have had RBF I guess!
LOL a month later he asked ME why we broke up, as if he wanted me to tell him... fogggg.
I also wear my emotions plainly on my face. It is so hard to control it. And I totally get what you are saying Ganb8te, if you look at photos of a group listening to someone talk, often about half of them look seriously angry and upset. I do a lot of event photos and most audience photos have to be trashed because people look mad instead of fascinated! It's so interesting.
ganb8e, it's amazing how sometimes we have to fly half way across the world and be told in another language that we're projecting an angry face. I've visited the Maasai, too. Granted I was about 18 months old but the women were fascinated by my red hair. My father taught at an all boys Maasai school during the Peace Corps and we went back to visit. The photos are incredible.
Aaaanyway, Lisa, you do event photography? Me too. Well sort of here and there. I prefer portraits but events pay well.
And since none of that was really about reactive communication or our collect RBFs, I'll just say this:
I bought One More Try by Gary Chapman and, while it's heavy on God (it's Chapman so it only makes sense) it's insightful BUT I also got John Gottman's The Science of Trust: Emotional Attunement for Couples and it is fascinating. It appeals to my desire for empiracle evidence and data analysis to prove theories and make discoveries so WOW, it's awesome in that area. The BIG one though, the BIIIIIG book that is helping with my reactive communication problems is The Solo Partner. It's a true winner from start to finish. Get it. You'll thank me (and whomever told me to get it, too).
Gottman stuff is good. Did you look at How To Improve Your Marriage....?
So to the question "Did you do X yet?" create a positive back story, that's how my husband asks questions, straight and to the point.(keeping in mind, a jerk is a jerk) I can either take no offense, be offended or talk with him about how that question bothers me.
And I'm sure it's a surprise to no one here that I'm the one in my house that asks, clipped, to the point questions.
I've had to learn to soften that a bit.
yes, labug, I also got How to Improve Your Marriage, too. That amazon bill is going to be a doozy.
so, just blabbering here...
I always find myself down and anxious in two specific scenarios.
1. After I pay bills, I realize how much money we're spending, realize I can't discuss this with H really, realize he's going out to dinner here and there at $200+ a pop (not just him, clearly), realize how badly we need good health insurance which catapults me into anxiety over getting a job and wondering why the 20 jobs I've applied for either think I'm not good enough or I'm TOO good.
2. Nights that I don't have D. She's at H's tonight, just one mid-week night and I do have GAL plans (yoga with friends is GAL, right?) but it's still hard coming home to a big empty house alone.
Sigh. I guess it's good that I recognize the source of my sadness and anxiety instead of spinning out of control with no understanding of why.
H is here working in the studio in the garage. He comes in, helps himself to something in the fridge, comments on my rearranging of the furniture in the family room very nonchalantly ("hey, looks good" with zero inflection) which was VERY difficult given that I'm a small woman moving LARGE furniture all over a room but whatever.
I immediately started mind reading and assuming that he's thinking "I don't know why you're working so hard on moving furniture around, we're selling this house soon." WHAT? Why does my brain do that and go directly to the WORST? And then, I want to react to that mind reading and pursue and temperature check. ACK!
I promised myself I wouldn't mind read because I'm always wrong. It's hard to step out of that mindset though. So, I'm changing my mindset right now. I moved the furniture for ME. I kind of like it (I don't love it but it'll work for now and it changes the perspective of the room and I'm all for any change of perspective right now). I don't really care that much what he thinks about the rearranging of the furniture. So there. Plus, he's probably feeling a bit down because he hasn't gotten a film in a little while and I'm sure he's feeling pressure.
And he's wearing a shirt I complimented him on last week. He's working from home today, he didn't have to wear such a nice shirt to hang out in the studio.
No more mind reading. I just have to talk myself through it. Whew. Not easy but I did it.
H is here working in the studio in the garage. He comes in, helps himself to something in the fridge, comments on my rearranging of the furniture in the family room very nonchalantly ("hey, looks good" with zero inflection) which was VERY difficult given that I'm a small woman moving LARGE furniture all over a room but whatever.
I immediately started mind reading and assuming that he's thinking "I don't know why you're working so hard on moving furniture around, we're selling this house soon." WHAT? Why does my brain do that and go directly to the WORST? And then, I want to react to that mind reading and pursue and temperature check. ACK!
Ss, nothing sends me off the deep end faster than any mild hint that suggests that this is truly permanent. A few weeks ago, we were getting the house ready to sell, and putting lots of stuff in storage. We were packing up some dishes and she wanted to separate them into "mine" and "hers" boxes. To quote you: ACK!
I'm learning (very slowly) to dodge those thoughts. I really don't think she has a grand plan in her head, so small hints now probably aren't indications of anything definite. In your case, your H was probably just offering a mild compliment. In my case, my W was just being practical - if we do split, the china is already packed, at least. We have to dodge these obsessive thoughts or the misery will continue!
Ss06, I have mentioned this elsewhere on these forums, but I taught myself something that helped neutralize the mindreading I was doing. IF I mindread, I have to counter any negative mindreading with a positive thought too. For example, if your negative thought is "We're selling the house" you could counter it with "Maybe he can see himself back here."
Or something similar. It helps on two counts (a) Like I said, it neutralizes the negative thoughts and (b) It shows you how silly mindreading can be - because if it's so easy to go in one direction, it should be just as easy to go in the other.
Exactly, vossy. Depending on my mood, I can convince myself she is filing any day now, or has already seen the light of our M and will open up to me any day. Both thoughts are silly to obsess over! I am typically a very positive person, so I don't mind allowing myself to be optimistic. I'm just trying to stay in a zone where I feel:
- Patient to wait on her
- Eager to work on myself
- Convinced our M will work if she tries
- Convinced I will thrive if she files
Wow, you guys are awesome! I love the idea of countering any mindreading with something positive. Great smack of perspective there, vossy!
Card, you're really doing a great job. I love the male perspective and given how I treated my H (assuming he didn't have feelings, etc) it's SUPER helpful to hear that side of things. Thank you!!!
H is taking D for the weekend and once again I find myself sad and mindreading.
So I'm going to do what vossy suggested, here goes:
H, as indicated on FB, that he is hanging out with his buddies at work drinking scotch around a fire pit. Having a blast, I'm sure. He called to talk to D before bed, they chatted for a bit and then she hung up. He just has no reason to talk to me and frankly I have no reason to talk to him.
Am I out of sight out of mind? Do I even factor into his day at all? Does he think about me? Without anger or disdain? Does he miss me? Why do I feel like he doesn't. At all.
Ok, here goes on the positive mindreading:
Maybe he's disappointed that I have nothing to talk to him about at the end of his call with D, too. Maybe he does miss me and wants to see me but assumes that I don't want to see him. Maybe his IC is going well and he's facing some demons and needs space to do that.
Ok that wasn't as good as I'd hoped but it's balancing things out in my head a bit.
I really wish this would end.
Or...maybe it is much more simple than you are making it. Maybe he just does not have anything to say. Not in a bad way, not in a good way. He may have just called to talk to D and get back to his friends. Not trying to 2x4 ya on your thought process. I know when you are looking at the big picture, it is easy to take events like this and try to apply meaning to it. But remember, guys are simple creatures. He called to talk to D, so that is what he did. Same way when a guy goes to the store to buy milk, he buys milk, and that is it. Girls will come home with enough to feed an army.
Just because your H does not talk to you or even ask to talk to you, does not mean he does not factor into his thoughts during the day. Look at me. I think about my W constantly, yet I do not ask to talk to her, nor do I try to talk to her. Granted I am DBing, but the reasoning is the same.
Hang in there ss!!!
Thanks, Pilot. It's hard to remember that men are simple creatures. If that's true, why are things so difficult with them. Hahaha. Don't answer that.
Thanks for your help. Simple it is. He's got stuff going on. No biggie, right.
Whew. I needed that.
I often wonder the same things. Does she even think about me at all? We seem to be back to the stage of only talking to me when it's about the kids. You can't help but be sad because this is a person that you shared so much with and it was that one person at the end of the day that you knew you could talk to and now they're not there. It's easy to speculate about what they're doing, who they're talking to instead of you, and to think that you're not even a blip on their radar anymore. Usually what works for me when those thoughts start creeping in, usually when I'm not taking care of the kids, is to go to Netflix and turn something funny on, then laugh my head off.
Like Pilot said, hang in there. We got your back.
Thanks, topgun. It is so hard for me not to speculate and mind read but being aware of it has really shifted my focus and allowed me to get control of my spinning. It takes me longer than I expect though to really come down from my habit of speculation. Hours sometimes. I'm hoping I'll eventually get to the point where it just be minutes and then one day I'll habitually not do it at all. Too much to ask?
I am becoming more skilled at feeling the start of a spin. If I catch it within a minute or two of starting those thoughts, I can usually just dodge them immediately. The last couple of days, I've been trying out vossy's technique of immediately countering a negative thought with a positive spin. I can definitely say that it has worked for me so far! I was actually laughing at myself last night. She asked me to pick up a medication for her before the pharmacy closed because she couldn't get there in time. I thought to myself, "OMG who is she on a date with that is preventing her from going to the pharmacy??" I followed that up with, "Well maybe she is planning a dinner with me to re-confess her love to me." I was literally laughing out loud after I thought of that. Once I had the balanced thought, I could see how ridiculous both were, how impossible it was to tell if either is true, and how pointless it was to consider either possibility. I left both thoughts behind and enjoyed the rest of my night.
Yay, I'm glad this technique is working for each of you. It has *really* helped me over the last few months.. it's just a nice way to bring yourself back down to earth. I've actually found that it works outside DBing too..
"I am becoming more skilled at feeling the start of a spin. If I catch it within a minute or two of starting those thoughts, I can usually just dodge them immediately. The last couple of days, I've been trying out vossy's technique of immediately countering a negative thought with a positive spin. I can definitely say that it has worked for me so far! I was actually laughing at myself last night. She asked me to pick up a medication for her before the pharmacy closed because she couldn't get there in time. I thought to myself, "OMG who is she on a date with that is preventing her from going to the pharmacy??" I followed that up with, "Well maybe she is planning a dinner with me to re-confess her love to me." I was literally laughing out loud after I thought of that. Once I had the balanced thought, I could see how ridiculous both were, how impossible it was to tell if either is true, and how pointless it was to consider either possibility. I left both thoughts behind and enjoyed the rest of my night."
Good grief. I need to try this technique. Man, my head spins out of control from 0-warp speed in 2 seconds flat. Not a single one of my fears has been confirmed since she left and evidence has proved she has been telling the truth since too, but try telling my heart that.
I love vossy's technique. Genius!
Unfortunately most of the things I have made up in my head about my WAH have turned out to be true. But this is also a good way to avoid the spiral of negative thinking, no matter how negative the situation actually is.
I agree that this technique can be useful for all manner of situations.