It's been quite a roller coaster the last year and a half. My story in a nutshell is that a year and a half ago my wife had an affair with a co-worker. I filed for divorce and this past March my wife said she wanted to make our marriage work. We went to several counseling sessions that were really rough as she basically said she was not going to stop talking to OM. We stopped going to counseling and things got better. We were going on dates, sleeping on the same bed (no sex though) and she was texting/calling me more frequent just to talk, calling me pet names, etc. Overall, it seems like progress has been made.
However, I've come to find out that she is still talking to the OM (going out for lunch, texting him, etc). I even found a recent hallmark card he gave her telling my wife how proud he was of her and that he will always be there for her, etc.
Overall, my wife is still very protective of her phone but I do get the feeling that she is "just friends" with OM as she is almost always at home instead of going out. But it bothers me that she refuses to cut off communication with OM. I know that if I bring OM up she will have a fit.
I feel like I am living a lie. While things are good on the outside, I feel like it is a huge sign of disrespect that she still keeps this guy in her life, even if it is just as friends. On top of that, she just moved into the same department as OM.
Am I just deceiving myself into thinking that this marriage is good when it is not? We going on dates, I am holding her at night (but she does give me the cheek if I go for the kiss), and we are spending more time together. At the same time, I make a considerable amount of $$$ and sometimes I think that she is staying with me to support her lifestyle (I basically pay all the bills, any discretionary spending, etc - so I do feel used sometimes in that regard but she does not make a lot of money). I wonder if I am just wasting my time, if I should just pretend that OM does not exist even though he does. It bothers me that she never admitted to the affair or taken responsibility for her action.
Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks
Sorry, but it sounds to me like she is cake-eating. You get no physical intimacy, she continues contact, you pay all the bills?
It might be time to set boundaries -- no contact, transparency. So what if she pitches a fit? You're either prepared to continue living a lie in a loveless marriage, hoping that the tide will turn. Or, you can stand up for yourself and ask for NC and transparency. If she's not willing to do that, then I think you will know for certain that she is choosing him over you, and just using you for convenience. It's hard but true. I'm just a newbie, but there are plenty of other threads that address NC and transparency in "piecing." Best of luck.
Not in piecing-maybe Infidelity.
Thanks Ahoy and Labug. What makes this difficult is that superficially things haven't been this good for a long time (maybe my standards have fallen and I am just happy to eat crumbs). I don't know if I need to bring this issue up or continue to DB/work on making me a better person, going on dates, spending time together and hope that things turn around (which honestly, I think she sees nothing wrong with having OM as a friend).
I'll be very interested in what the vets have to tell you. I feel for you as I am in a very similar situation.
The fact that they cannot be apart because of being work associates makes it hard if not impossible to not be friends too. How can you work with someone that you have to un-friend and how can you know that if this un-friending happens, it is not just symbolic for the sake of keeping the house together?
It is a slippery slope. I feel that with all of the DBing and turning things around, the relationship could mend, but that still leaves OM in the wings.
I have very little to offer as I have asked myself and others the same questions. Is it cake eating or working toward a great relationship?
Thanks U-turn. I too am interested on what advice the vets can provide. I think this is a very gray line and it is hard to tell at what point are you DBing vs just being quixotic/naive.
thanks for providing the scrabble word of the day (had to look that one up)
I read something like this here - probably a month ago about friends, and I wish I could just say this and she would understand and believe it.
He is not your friend and you are not his. Friends do not jeopardize things that are important to each other - like families.
Very similar to my situation but my W is just about to leave .
She kept telling me that she will only see the OM at work and that he will only say hello to her .
It's so hard when they work together and you have got to try and trust them .
Problem my W has she isn't a very good liar and almost raises a flag when she has been up to no good .
And been having to put up with the whole being protective about the phone it never leaves her pocket or hand .
I suppose though you need to agree to what your happy with and if you do think it's about the money then you will always think that .
A friend of mine recently went through a similar situation with her H, although he did not have an A. A woman was hitting on him at work over the course of many months, even though she was married. My friend told her H that he should tell her to back off. He did but she persisted. Then my friend said that H had to get a new job if he couldn't keep the situation under control. And he did. But that's what can happen when both partners are committed to preserving the relationship, value their family, and are not in an A or MLC.
However, if your relationship is in a vulnerable place, then making demands like changing jobs might backfire.
thanks for providing the scrabble word of the day (had to look that one up)
LOL - Glad I could be of service.
But that's what can happen when both partners are committed to preserving the relationship, value their family, and are not in an A or MLC.
That is so true. Unfortunately, when this was brought up in counseling she had a huge fit and said she did nothing wrong and will not stop talking to OM, that they were just friends, etc. Since the counseling session (last one was in May I believe), the topic of the OM has not been brought up. My wife's best friend is a guy, she grew up with 3 brothers (no sisters) and in her eyes, OM was there for her when I wasn't (which is true) - so for her to break the friend with OM would be cruel since he was there for her - at least that is what she told me during counseling. In her eyes, she did/is doing nothing wrong.
lovenomatterwhat,
I would read (or re read) DR. I know you say your relationship has not been better superficially at least than it has in a long time. My M was the same way after our original BD about a year ago. After about a month from that day, I thought we were working through things, as things got really well between us. However, it all went downhill months later when I discovered her A. This summer I come to find out from her she never really was giving our M a chance during the time I thought we were working things through.
So I would be wary of 'thinking' you are working on things simply because you guys are outwardly getting along, and going on dates. I say read or re read DR because what stood out to me was the part where after a WAW checks out, she basically quits the nagging, and other behavior which the H thinks of as negatives (and she thought of as trying to fix things) because she has emotionally moved on. The fact she will not quit contact with her OM, and does not give you any physical intimacy really stands out like a huge red flag to those of us who have been down that road.
As for advice on what you should do, I really cannot offer any. I do not know enough about your situation, past and current, to fairly do so. I also know how hard it will be for you to take what you are getting, and make the choice to back off from it. On the surface though, it would seem you need to set boundaries on the entire OM situation. And more importantly, stick with your boundaries. I have a feeling though, I know what your W is going to decide, and I know how much hurt that will cause you. I do think though, she is letting you live with blinders on while she cake eats.
Sorry if I sound negative, I really hope I am wrong and you both are truly working towards saving your M. From what I read though, I do not think this is the case.
Best of luck to you...
There's the rub
A demand like, you need to find a new job, is trying to control things, and is likely going to cause an avalanche (in my case).
I guess that goes beyond stating and enforcing my boundaries - and into "this is you should do to work with my boundaries"
In my situation, she is new into this career, a big break for her, a way to change from a SAHM role and to get past another job that she didn't like and wasn't valued in. I will not push her to quit this job yet but am encouraging and excited when she talks about other career paths (she knows why).
We have both talked about the fact that things are not going to be right with us until they aren't working together (and even then maybe not)(I've denied this in the past and she has stated this many times - she is probably right).
She seems be looking for different paths within the same company, so she is aware of this as being helpful, but I don't know what her priorities are at the moment.
I am not naive enough to think that just because their opportunity is gone that their feelings will be gone.
She had an affair with the man! She flat out told you she won't stop seeing/contacting him. She won't let you kiss her.....much less have sex. Now you are trying to believe they are just friends b/c she grew up with brothers?
Trust me, if they had a brother/sister R......or even just a friendship......she would not be so protective over her phone or scared to lay it down. You feel disrespected b/c you ARE!!
Almost every W in an A will claim two things. (1) they are just friends (2) you are controlling whenever you seek verification.
It is not controling, but it can be affair proofing your M. So just b/c she throws a fit and twists tbe truth, don't start believing her crap. You stopped counseling, then haven't brought up OM in three months. She thinks she has you brained washed to the point of beleiving anything!
Can a W pretend to have a good R with her H......except for gaslighting.....and no intimacy, of course. You bet'cha.
Wake up and be smart. She is playing you.
Don't discuss OM with her. Not yet. You need to think about what you really want. Think about what you will not live without in your personal life....and what you won't tolerate. That will help to lay the foundation for your personal boundaries. Boundaries are not about controling her. It is about protecting youself.
Get alone and take a long, deep look in a full length mirror. Study the man you see, and compare him to the man you were before M. Be painfully honest with yourself and digg deep.
Next, list ways to become the man you use to be.....or better. Make short term goals that will keep you on track while you are improving as a man. All of this is about you...not her.
More later......
Sorry to hijack guys but could you look at my thread Sandi. Have I gone too far?
Thanks everyone for the advice so far. I really appreciate it.
Get alone and take a long, deep look in a full length mirror. Study the man you see, and compare him to the man you were before M. Be painfully honest with yourself and digg deep.
Next, list ways to become the man you use to be.....or better. Make short term goals that will keep you on track while you are improving as a man. All of this is about you...not her.
I will definitely do this. I know once the topic of OM is brought up, things will go south really fast so I want to make sure I am really acting out of intention and in terms of what I want in life vs acting out of emotions. I want to save this marriage but at the same time, the last 2 years have been such a roller coaster that I am ready to move on if it means avoiding another 6 months of limbo. I think for the first time, though, I am at a place where emotionally I am stable. Sure I have some sad moments here and there but for the most part I am excited about life and know that I will be okay if she is not there. That said, I very much would like my family to be in tact but know that I have no control over her decisions - only my actions.
You need a plan of action for yourself. Know what you are doing. "Taking whatever may happen" as some people may say, is not a clear plan. That's why I suggested you do some deep thinking about your values and principles, your belief system.
You can't talk your way into a better R with her. Neither does avoiding conflict work. I get the sense you may be a conflict avoider. Don't decide to leave the M as a way of avoiding problems, if you want to stay M. If you leave it, it needs to be based on your core values, and not avoidance. Make sense?
I hope one of your boundaries is respect. A woman has to respect her H! It is an absolute necessity if he ever wants her to be sexually attracted and feel those "in love" feelings for him.
Hope to hear from you again.
I'm still here. I think my latest post got deleted during the server update. Anyway, I've really been struggling here with what the right approach is here.
I know that I do not want OM in my wife's life - that faithfulness, openness and honesty are fundamental values that I want in any relationship.
So the DB in me tells me that I should weigh this out, continue to love my wife, go on dates, stay positive/upbeat, and to not bring up OM in hope that the changes my W sees in me will cause her to want to leave OM. This was the approach that I took about a year ago (minus some screw ups here and there).
The other side of me wants to talk to my wife about this. I feel that going down this road will cause whatever progress has been made to go down the drain real quickly and I doubt it will cause wife to want to end friendship with OM. This approach seems to be the quickest way to divorce.
That said, it bothers me that see is still with OM and I don't know what will give the marriage the best chance in her leaving OM for good. Do I weigh this out and hope she changes like DB teaches or do I need to smell the roses and realize that she probably will never leave OM, even if it just a friendship?
I've been thinking about what pilot said in a previous post about outwardly getting alone with wife while still continuing the affair. We are at a place where we've been consistently having good conversations, doing things together and spending time as a family. She lets me massage her at night but still no intimacy or any of that loving baby talk that couples do when they are in love. She does call me by my pet name and will tell me she loves me but only if I tell her that first. Yet, she continues to confide in OM, go to lunch with me and worse yet, is moving in the same department as he is. So for me, it is hard to move on when OM is still in her life and that she is still very secretive with this (she even brought a safe and told me it was to keep me from getting into her stuff).
I want my marriage to be saved and I love my wife, but it is hard to see a long term future with trust and intimacy (not just physical but emotional also) when she continues to confide in OM even if it is under the guise of just being friends. I know that OM is a boundary I want to have but is it wise to enforce that boundary now and risk the marriage altogether vs giving her more time, etc.
Completely lost here...
I don't have any advice but I'm sorry your dealing with an om, it's so hard isn't it!
My h was in an ea last winter with a neighbor, she had filed for d from her h, and calling my h all the time, spending her nights with my h playing cards, watching football, and they both were divulging how horrible their spouses were to each other.
I couldn't take it anymore and had a talk with her one day explaining how I felt in which she said she was sorry and never thought about me because she was so distraught .
I also ask my h what's up? Told him he was being disrespectful to me , giving his time to ow, talking about our personal problems to her, etc...
His reply was anger, and of course that they were just friends. They started hiding there interactions more after that, but he wouldn't do one thing pertaining to her that I ask him, wouldn't even admit it looked bad from where I was standing. He said if I don't trust him we had nothing, and that I'm crazy and controlling for trying to make him get rid of his friends. So I know your in a bad place. Nothing I said changed anything with the ea they were having, in fact it made it worse.
I'm sorry to see you in this mess. I know the feeling, my heart goes out to you!
I am in a smiliar sitch, but W doesnt talk to the OM and it was a one time thing.
However, she does have male F's. She never used to have many, if at all. It's tough, but all I can say is continue to DB until your heart is no longer in it. Becasue at that point, you would be only hurting yourself.
Interested in the Vets input.
So the DB in me tells me that I should weigh this out, continue to love my wife, go on dates, stay positive/upbeat, and to not bring up OM in hope that the changes my W sees in me will cause her to want to leave OM. This was the approach that I took about a year ago (minus some screw ups here and there).
But you see how that turned out, don't you? Do you honestly believe she ever stopped anything with OM? Women can cover their tracks very well. They figure out how to carry the A deeper underground so that H thinks it has ended. The H who really wants to believe her....is usually the one who is deceived the worst. Love can be blind in many ways.
The other side of me wants to talk to my wife about this. I feel that going down this road will cause whatever progress has been made to go down the drain real quickly and I doubt it will cause wife to want to end friendship with OM. This approach seems to be the quickest way to divorce.
If you mean work things out by sitting down and having a discussion about OM.....and thinking she will agree to end it (again), then it won't work. But let me tell you, you really need to stop referring to this as her FRIENDSHIP with OM. Call it what it is. It is an AFFAIR with OM. Besides, what kind of W would choose a friendship over her M.......if that's all it was! Do you have a "friend" that means more to you than your spouse?
That said, it bothers me that see is still with OM and I don't know what will give the marriage the best chance in her leaving OM for good. Do I weigh this out and hope she changes like DB teaches or do I need to smell the roses and realize that she probably will never leave OM, even if it just a friendship?
No, that's not how you need to work it. Have you done any of the things I suggested in my previous posts? B/c that was to build up to establishing your boundaries. Stating your boundaries in no uncertain terms is how you deal with the issues of your W and her A with OM. Are you familiar with how that works? Don't confuse it with ultimatums. However, once stated, be ready to carry it out.
I want my marriage to be saved and I love my wife, but it is hard to see a long term future with trust and intimacy (not just physical but emotional also) when she continues to confide in OM even if it is under the guise of just being friends. I know that OM is a boundary I want to have but is it wise to enforce that boundary now and risk the marriage altogether vs giving her more time, etc.
Can you give me an example of how you would enforces a boundary?
Btw, how long has W gone without being intimate with you?
I agree with sandi. You said that she wanted to work on the M. This should include no contact with OM. There is not trust there with him in the picture.
I will tell you that if you confront her about the OM, she will turn it around and make you sound like the unreasonable one for denying her a friendship, etc. Just remember that's all part of her craziness like someone on drugs.
Stand strong.
Can you give me an example of how you would enforces a boundary?
The main boundary is that if OM is in her life, I am out. The only way to enforce that will be to move out of the house and file for divorce.
When my wife told me back in the spring that she wanted to save our marriage, I told her that a boundary for me was OM and that he had to go. I obviously never enforced that.
Ultimately, I had two conditions in my mind that I felt had to be meant if this marriage had any hope.
1.) she had to admit what she did was wrong
2.) she had to remove OM completely out of her life
She never did either of these and I see how I tolerated this rather than sticking to my guns and getting a divorce.
Btw, how long has W gone without being intimate with you?
It's been at least 2 years. While she asks me to give her a masssage almost every night, there is no cuddling, no kissing, no true affection. I feel like a child starving for food.
Today was rough. My wife got upset this morning because we ran out of groceries/food yesterday. She told me this morning that I was lazy, good for nothing and that she always has to do things if they are to get done. This was really upsetting as I felt that I've really been there for her since she asked to make this week. This week I've had to work late several days but the days I am home I almost always do the cooking, cleaning, etc. She was complaining that she has a lot to do already and was trying to come up with a grocery list. She asked if I can transfer some money to her so she could go buy groceries (I hate not having the same account but she told me that I will only screw her if that ever happened). I told her since she was that busy I can go ahead and get the groceries myself. She had a fit and told me that I am being controlling and that I don't want to support the family since I am not giving her any money for groceries. I would have gladly given her some $$$ but I didn't ever get a chance to clarify, etc. She ran out of the house super upset and hasn't been home since. I know she is going to give me the silent treatment and probably not even allow me to sleep on the same bed as that is what she normally does when she is upset - so what boundary/enforcement can I do here to let her know that is not acceptable?
I am really upset and sort of depress with her she acted today. I felt like blowing up but I held my tongue and didn't really say much to her. All it would take would be for me to find out that she ran to OM today for comfort and I would be out the door so fast. Grrhh. Okay, just venting here.
just as expected - I am getting the cold and silent treatment from wife. Days like this makes me want to give up on this marriage. On top of that, our daughter is sleeping on the bed with wife while I sleep in another bed room. Wife told daughter that she can sleep there for the not. Very frustrating...
Can you give me an example of how you would enforces a boundary?
The main boundary is that if OM is in her life, I am out. The only way to enforce that will be to move out of the house and file for divorce.
When my wife told me back in the spring that she wanted to save our marriage, I told her that a boundary for me was OM and that he had to go. I obviously never enforced that.
Ultimately, I had two conditions in my mind that I felt had to be meant if this marriage had any hope.
1.) she had to admit what she did was wrong
I admit this strikes me as punitive and unhelpful, but allow me to say why, please.
Since most women justify their affairs (b/c they're rarely "meaningless, or just for sex" which SOME men can probably say)....why would she have to think it's wrong?
What if she felt it was justified but then you became the man you were meant to become and she took you back b/c of the changes you made?2.) she had to remove OM completely out of her life
This^^ makes sense. I agree,although I'm not sure how fast one can do it or what it means to say "completely" if they work together or some other odd situation exists. But in principle, yes I am with you on this. And transparency too.She never did either of these and I see how I tolerated this rather than sticking to
my guns and getting a divorce.
Would that really be better than trying to save the marriage? How so? What would be better in your life if you were divorced now? And for your kids?
Btw, how long has W gone without being intimate with you?
It's been at least 2 years. While she asks me to give her a masssage almost every night, there is no cuddling, no kissing, no true affection. I feel like a child starving for food.
To this day you two have not been intimate for 2 years AND she still sees the OM?
I'm confused.Today was rough. My wife got upset this morning because we ran out of groceries/food yesterday. She told me this morning that I was lazy, good for nothing and that she always has to do things if they are to get done. This was really upsetting as I felt that I've really been there for her since she asked to make this week. This week I've had to work late several days but the days I am home I almost always do the cooking, cleaning, etc. She was complaining that she has a lot to do already and was trying to come up with a grocery list. She asked if I can transfer some money to her so she could go buy groceries
(I hate not having the same account but she told me that I will only screw her if that ever happened).
so you WOULD like to have joint accounts but SHE REFUSES to? Why not just point that out?
OR was she asking you for money and you refused, or what?
I told her since she was that busy I can go ahead and get the groceries myself. She had a fit and told me that I am being controlling and that I don't want to support the family since I am not giving her any money for groceries. I would have gladly given her some $$$ but I didn't ever get a chance to clarify, etc. She ran out of the house super upset and hasn't been home since.
Does this^^ happen often? Where do you think she goes?I know she is going to give me the silent treatment and probably not even allow me to sleep on the same bed as that is what she normally does when she is upset - so what boundary/enforcement can I do here to let her know that is not acceptable?
How do YOU act when she returns? Don't be a dog with your tail between your legs. I'd have a BLAST while she's gone, GAL with the kid or friends and regret that she missed the fun - but make NO apologies for anything other than what you do feel you did wrong...or if you hurt her, etc.
You are responsible for your own happiness -so stop making it her job.
IOW, go have FUN and act as if you think she wanted to take a walk or get some air or whatever - b/c frankly you do NOT know what upset her, or do you? I mean, really? What matters is what YOU want to do and how you go about doing it.
I am really upset and sort of depress with her she acted today. I felt like blowing up but I held my tongue and didn't really say much to her. All it would take would be for me to find out that she ran to OM today for comfort and I would be out the door so fast. Grrhh. Okay, just venting here.
You guys need new TOOLS for better communications and commitment. Have you looked into going to Retrovaille? You really must. (In case you don't know, it's a retreat for marriages in crisis and it has a good success rate. The "Team" couples are there to help guide you and they have been thru a lot of crap themselves, which is inspiring really. We got a lot out of it.)
I cannot imagine a DB couple piecing successfully without going to Retrovaille, unless they got a really great MC or something else that gave them the new tools.
Otherwise you're going to be back here in awhile...what has really changed? And if nothing huge has changed, then it's "insanity" to assume you'll have different results, right?
And how will it change if you both don't get some new ways of coping and handling things?
What if she felt it was justified but then you became the man you were meant to become and she took you back b/c of the changes you made?
We are suppose to be back together and working on making this marriage work. The problem here is that she doesn't want to get rid of OM while telling me she wants to work on the marriage. I was ready to move on and a week before we were set to meet the judge she told me she wanted to make things work between us.
To this day you two have not been intimate for 2 years AND she still sees the OM?
I'm confused.
Yep. OM is a co-worker on top of that (she just moved into the same department as him). She tells me that she says nothing wrong with being friends and since he was there when I wasn't, she thinks it would be wrong to end the "friendship" with him.
so you WOULD like to have joint accounts but SHE REFUSES to? Why not just point that out?
I wanted to go full force with making this work. I hate having separate bank accounts, not like that she has her own safe with her only having the key, her being secretive, etc. I really wanted these barriers to come down and have us start working as one.
Does this^^ happen often? Where do you think she goes?
Since she told me that she wanted to make this work back in March, this rarely happens. But it doesn't take much to make her upset either. Keep in mind that for the last year or so, I have been cleaning the house, taking our daughter out to events, paying for pretty much everything, even doing her homework/quizzes for her (I was up at 2 am twice this week having to read several chapters and take her quizzes online since she wasn't feeling well). I honestly can say that I've really worked on those areas that she use to complain about. Unfortunately, my work at times can get hectic and that is one of her big complaints is me working these 12 hour days. So this week I had to work a lot and while I made sure there was food for the week, unfortunately it was used up by Friday (which I gave her $$$ to go out to eat since I told her that I wasn't going to be able to replenish our food stock until the weekend).
The last time she acted like this was about two months ago.
You guys need new TOOLS for better communications and commitment. Have you looked into going to Retrovaille?
We actually went to Retrovaille back in April and left the next day in the morning. She told me that she wasn't getting anything out of it and that it was a waste of time. Ironically, we ended up spending the whole day site seeing (retrovaille was in a different town so we had to drive up) and had a blast. But I agree - I wish we would work together on getting some communication skills. She refuses to go to counseling, thinks relationship books are a joke and tells me all the time that she doesn't have a problem communicating.
Otherwise you're going to be back here in awhile...what has really changed?
I've worked hard on my 180s and addressing the issues that my wife had with me. The thing is that it doesn't take much for any little thing to trigger something in my wife. Overall, we've been getting along, going on dates and outwardly appearing to be working on the marriage. There really hasn't been any fighting until today (which was really me just taking it with not really saying much). I am getting tired and exhausted though - I work 10 hour days most days (with a few days longer than that throughout the month), do most of the cooking, cleaning, make time to participate in my daughter's life (girl scouts, helping with homework, dropping daughter off at school, etc). I've been supportive of wife going back to school and have spent more time helping her with her homework than I ever did when I was an MBA student. It is frustrating because I am trying to make this work and while for the most part things have been good - OM is still there, no intimacy, and no real communications when it comes to the rough issues of life.
Would that really be better than trying to save the marriage? How so? What would be better in your life if you were divorced now? And for your kids?
I don't know the answer to this. I am trying to save this marriage for what seems like an eternity now and want nothing more for us to really be close/connected to each other. But I am getting tired, fatigue, and overall my quality of life isn't improving. I can't go on like this forever - at some point I have to face the truth that this marriage might never be saved. A lot of damage has been done, especially by me throughout this marriage and my wife seems to remember more the bad times than she does the good. You can probably ignore this last paragraph - today was just a rough day as I got a verbal beating from her today that I felt was completely uncalled for.
LNMW,
I hear you.
I'll go over your post more carefully, and I will read your whole thread before I delve deeply with advice.
But know this.
Not all marriages CAN be saved and certainly, some should not.
There is also such a thing as cutting one's losses, learning from it, & moving on.
I'd say if you come to the point at which you can honestly say you have bravely, AND honestly dug deep to face parts of you that you'd rather not face, but you did anyhow,
AND then courageously and thoroughly worked on issues deep within you,
to become truly the best LNMW you can become, then there is only one thing left to do.
At that point you turn your marriage, your pain & your anger over to God.
(Or your "higher power" or "universe," or whatever entity that comforts you)
you hold your head up, and go in peace.
I'm simply not ready to say you are there yet.
Is this the same W you had back in 2008 when you first joined?
Look, she told you she would work on the M, but hasn't had any form of affection with you and hasn't dropped OM, so clearly......she is not into this M!
All I can say is you need to man up and stop accepting this outrageous disrespect from a woman who has done nothing but play you for a fool. The way you take the sh't she pours on you is so unattractive I can't even explain it.
I don't know why she is staying with you......but I wouldn't say it is out of love, by a long shot. Maybe she just wants something to kick around.
You have dealt with this since March......and a long time before you were going to file. Obviously, you need to move on or change drastically b/c this isn't working.
Is this the same W you had back in 2008 when you first joined?
It is. Can't believe its been that long - where does time go.
All I can say is you need to man up and stop accepting this outrageous disrespect from a woman who has done nothing but play you for a fool.
I moved out today into my sisters house. Honestly, I feel like crap for doing it. This morning I got another birating about the food. Her aunt called me later that morning and told me that I need to seriously get out of the house – that my wife is never going to change as long as I tolerate her treating me with disrespect. Yesterday I was pretty much depressed all day long and now today I feel awful. Maybe I shouldn’t have left the house. I am so down and sad right now – I keep thinking about my daughter and how it must feel to be her right now. I failed. I feel so guilty and blame myself for allowing the marriage to get to this point. I am not holding up well.
My wife texted me about 50 messages – basically saying that I am coward, selfish, and every other mean thing a person can say. I sent her only one text message telling her that I love her and that I want to make this marriage work, but that I will not tolerate being berated, her seeing/calling/txting OM behind my back and not communicating/working with me to solve issues. She responded that I should just sign the divorce papers. I didn’t respond back but she kept calling my phone throughout the day. I sent her one last txt message telling her that I cannot talk to her right now until we are both ready to have an honest, open and willingness to listen conversation about the relationship. I basically got more verbal abuse via txt messages.
I’ve been crying most of the day and just feel ashamed, guilty and like I am abandoning my family. I know this is not logical but this hurts really bad. I can’t see any hope anymore. I’m trying to stay strong but this is hard.
Not all marriages CAN be saved and certainly, some should not.
There is also such a thing as cutting one's losses, learning from it, & moving on.
It feels like I am at that point. I never wanted this. I would do anything to reverse time, to start over from the beginning and undo all my mistakes. I realized too late how valuable family and marriage is. I know that she had a part but my contribution to this was big. I don't know what to do any more.
LNMW,
My wife texted me about 50 messages – basically saying that I am coward, selfish, and every other mean thing a person can say. I sent her only one text message telling her that I love her and that I want to make this marriage work, but that I will not tolerate being berated, her seeing/calling/txting OM behind my back and not communicating/working with me to solve issues. She responded that I should just sign the divorce papers. I didn’t respond back but she kept calling my phone throughout the day. I sent her one last txt message telling her that I cannot talk to her right now until we are both ready to have an honest, open and willingness to listen conversation about the relationship. I basically got more verbal abuse via txt messages.
^^^^^^^^^
That was basically the kinda sh** my exW put me through. That is cake-eating and abusing you emotionally, morally and financially. Cut her off, kick her out, let her enjoy the OM for who he really is. You do not have to do all 3 in a mean spirited way, but if she is just out to use you, get rid of her.
It feels like I am at that point. I never wanted this. I would do anything to reverse time, to start over from the beginning and undo all my mistakes. I realized too late how valuable family and marriage is. I know that she had a part but my contribution to this was big. I don't know what to do any more.
Sandi wrote about getting a plan 2 weeks ago. It seems you still don't have one.
You aren't a victim. Plan and act.
Hi Nettles
I dont know what to do much less get a plan. I don't feel like a victim - I feel like a sinner who got what he deserved. i miss my family so much but I don't know anymore on what the best course of action is. i regret moving out - i wish i would have stayed if anything so I could at least see my daughter. I am lost and dont know what i need to be doing to save this marriage. I feel like I've tried almost everything. I really need some advice on what options do i really have it this point - nothing seems to be working
[quote]Is this the same W you had back in 2008 when you first joined?
It is. Can't believe its been that long - where does time go.
Wow, sorry for the length of this but Hey, I read your thread, back to 2008.
I'm glad I did, b/c it makes me see your wife in a very different light. (If anyone else is interested, just read his very first post from 2008).
Here is a tiny piece of what YOU WROTE BACK THEN, 3 months AFTER you were divorced from this same woman.
Here is my situation.
My wife of 6 years finally had our divorce finalized about three month ago. She filed and was right for doing it. In a nutshell..., our marriage was great for the first three years. I was happy and she was happy – we both worked hard at getting our needs met.
When we had our first child – a daughter – I freaked out. I didn’t want the responsibility of being a father. The first three months I thought I was going to lose my mind. To make a long story short, I left the house and moved in with a guy friend of mine. For the next two years I was in and out of my wife/daughter's life. In short, I neglected them and I was wrong for doing it........
About [b]six months before the divorce, she would beg and plea for me to move back in – to be a family. I was stupid, immature, and did not realized what a great family I had till it was taken away.
About
two months before we got a divorce –I guess you can say I woke up. I realized that I did love my wife and daughter – that I really did what to be with my family.
My bet is that deserting your wife at the most vulnerable time in her life,
did extreme damage to your wife's feelings of safety inside the marriage, her ego as a wife & new mother, and her love for you.
*("Most vulnerable" to me, means she experienced so much right then; e.g., the labor & childbirth, newborn care, especially her first baby, massive sleep deprivation, recovering from childbirth and all that entails, hormones...I think you get the picture).
I'd like you to understand how deep those feelings of & desire for safety are for a woman.
In a large study of what spouses value most from their mates, 2 things were found for each gender.
MEN want their wives 1) to be attractive to them, (i.e. "have chemistry") AND
2) peace in the home.
Sociologists suggests that^^^ it probably means no nagging or complaining to the h when he gets home. He wants "peace" at home.
From their husbands, WOMEN most value
1) Security & 2) Fidelity.
For Security, sociologists said it likely means both financial security & physical, and both of these values are increased w/children in the picture.
Financial security from our man may seem unfair in todays' more feminist culture, but it still seems true. Women do value a man who puts food on the table & a roof over her/baby's head. Shoot, I know some women who stay married to their husbands solely because they are "good providers". In some cultures that's the norm.
"Physical security", means we like to feel protected by our man, (so the scary noise in the closet means our hubby goes to look while we back them up with the lamp...But a man who is violent with his family, will never make a wife feel secure.
And a woman who does not feel secure with her man, does not feel loving very often either...
RE; 2) Fidelity, seems to be pretty self explanatory.
I doubt she ever really trusted You again, fully, when you "reconciled". (I wish you had done Retrovaille THEN, b/c the results would likely have been SO different).
It must have been so terrifying to have her man leave her at her most vulnerable time, (i.e. right after giving birth, & coping with her first child, a newborn baby). What a combination for her to face all alone...
In the back of her mind, she may have feared it would happen all over again.
Plus she had to think of the baby's needs too. A baby needs a dad AND food & a roof over her head.
So if your wife wanted to remarry you in part for financial reasons, so what --AS LONG as you both put the work into it...
(which is THE important underlying issue, I know...)
I'm just saying as long as a couple does DO the work they need to do, I'm not totally positive how important their original reasons for trying again, are....
I've thought about this & the finances IN MY Marriage, as an issue, since my h would suffer A LOT financially if we divorced. I know that. But as long as I see conscientious love & effort on his end, I'm okay with whatever his original reasons were.
I don't want to mind read your wife too much, but my guess is she wanted the financial stability of marriage to you,
AND she hoped the M would go back to how it was when you were happier together...and she could again feel the SECURITY she so craved...
but, she never learned how to forgive you; AND
you did not change much, behaviorally.
The motivation to forgive drops a lot if you don't see change in the other partner-- that's what you said recently (or someone said TO you) but a few years ago she could have made the same comment, right?
(Sure, your appreciation for her awakened in you; you missed her...but what did you DO differently? I didn't pick up on behaviors of significance that were better than before & I have not heard what your 180s were or GAL).
Finally, we COULD all review the marital history some more, and allocate % of blame here and there, be sure to point out how "immature/selfish" You were to leave her with a baby b/c you "freaked out", (that's what a real "Cad" does), and OR we can go nuts about how bitter she is and how she mistreated you then and...
But let's STOP ALL THAT^^^^ b/c isn't your time & ours, much better spent on what to do "Now & from this day forward" ?
I'll post more later.
For now, I'd urge you to read up on Forgiveness, and the "No More Mr Nice Guy" book IF you have not already read it. AND the Five Love Languages by Chapman.
Your wife is not the only one struggling with forgiveness...but again, we'll discuss that more later...
It's crucial to have a GOOD IC for you, & to stay in the present, so no more wallowing in the past. No more hand wringing or talking about how you "ruined it", "blew it" in the PAST, and no more "If Only I had done X..."
You made mistakes, so be it. Self loathing & chronic indecisions about yourself or the situation, are not serving you well at all. They're destructive.
Time to Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and take a step forward, today. Because
All you can do today, is do/be your best today.
Did she tell you to leave this last time, or did you make the decision to get out?
I usually read the backstory before I ever post, but somehow missed the 2008 date you joined. It seems a lot of damage has been done on both sides.
How many times over the years have you left to stay a while (nights or weeks) away from your W?
Hi Nettles
I dont know what to do much less get a plan. I don't feel like a victim - I feel like a sinner who got what he deserved. -- i regret moving out - i wish i would have stayed if anything so I could at least see my daughter. I am lost and dont know what i need to be doing to save this marriage. I feel like I've tried almost everything. I really need some advice on what options do i really have it this point - nothing seems to be working
You have gotten a lot of advice, including some very specific parts. I'm not sure what exactly you feel you have tried doing. Also, whatever it is, must be done for long enough to be able to assess whether it's working in part, in full or not at all.
What is it you think you have tried, for long enough, to decide "it's not working"??
I feel as if your lack of patience is coloring your views. You think you have done a lot and that "nothing seems to be working" but you skim over CHUNKS of behaviors or forget to disclose them or you revert, and or you go against the advice given and think "oh well, I'll just start over again."
but the thing is, when you go against the advice given, sometimes that means you set yourself farther back than you would be, had you done nothing.
Doing the wrong thing at this point can be darn Unhelpful and it's not always something you can just 'un do",
without a lot of time. And time isn't something you have an infinite supply of.
For every year of a behavior you do NOT want, (let's call it a "fault"), the spouse must counter for at least a month.
Meaning, for every year of a bad behavior (let's say "always being late"), you must do the opposite/180 for a month, to get your spouse to believe in the change.
So you'd have to be uber punctual for a month for every year of being late.
So If you were married 3 years and were always late the whole marriage, then it'd take 3+ months of you being super punctual, for your w to think maybe you are no longer Mr Late.
Do the "math" and the "math" of it is this:
"Consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in."make sense?
LNMW, and Sandi,
here is part of the very first post from 2008, that might address the forgotten portions and answer a lot of questions about how your wife got here.
From 2008, the First Post...
Here is my situation. My wife of 6 years finally had our divorce finalized about three month ago. She filed and was right for doing it.
In a nutshell, our marriage was great for the first three years. I was happy and she was happy – we both worked hard at getting our needs met.
When we had our first child – a daughter – I freaked out. I didn’t want the responsibility of being a father. The first three months I thought I was going to lose my mind. To make a long story short, I left the house and moved in with a guy friend of mine. For the next two years I was in and out of my wife/daughters life. In short, I neglected them and I was wrong for doing it.
I always loved my wife, but I couldn’t handle the stress of being a dad at the time. I never wanted children (so I thought) and I guess you can say our daughter was unplanned. She was right for leaving.
About six months before the divorce, she would beg and plea for me to move back in – to be a family. I was stupid, immature, and did not realized what a great family I had till it was taken away.
About two months before we got a divorce – I guess you can say I woke up. I realized that I did love my wife and daughter – that I really did what to be with my family. I asked my wife to take me back and she told me that she didn’t love me anymore. I made the mistake and begged, cried, and pleaded with her to take me back. I only drove her further away. I finally stopped doing that and decided that I was going to start loving her – to put her needs first and to not focus on my own needs – but rather her own happiness. Slowly, we started to talk, but she still went through with the divorce.
Now we’ve gotten to the point where we talk quite a bit on the phone and do things together. At first she was questioning my change – wondering what my motive was. She would say stuff like “you never did that before.”
After three months of being divorce, I can see that she is slowing starting to confide in me again – that trust is starting to be rebuilt. However, she will jokingly say stuff like “I know what you are doing” or that “there is no way we are getting back together.” That hurts.
I feel like we have made a lot of progress, but she keeps asking me if there are any strings attached with me being so nice and attentive to her needs. I tell her that I just want her to be happy and that anything I do I do with no conditions.
I want to be reconciled with my ex-wife so badly. I love her and my daughter so much. I didn’t realize the sacrifices and work that having a family takes – I was a fool for ever leaving. I feel like my ex and I have made so much progress these last three months, and yet I feel that maybe it is hopeless at times
MUCH of what is said now about "hopelessness" is repeated lately. There is a pattern. I would just reiterate what I wrote earlier in that LONG post...(which I hope you'll read carefully).
IMO, she never truly got over the previous desertion, and things were swept under the rug and not truly resolved. I don't know of any "work" you two did, or new tools either of you picked up over the years. So a lot of this is history being repeated but with different roles played.
Sort of the whole "Insanity" definition, meaning "Doing the same thing again & again but expecting different results". Sure, you say you realized how important family really is and that it takes work...
but what did YOU DO differently than before? I'm asking sincerely.
Oh, I remember now. Are you still around LNMW?