Maybell the VIIIth Lunch alone with my H tomorrow. I'm enjoying time with my kids this afternoon but just thought I'd open this thread.
No expectations of my H tomorrow. I'm really aware today of how awful it must be for my kids to know that their dad could decide not to live with them anymore. It colors my thoughts about him.
Welcome back, friends!
Labug, Train... Is it fun to be together again? Do you enjoy one another? Is any part of it like it was in the beginning, with the butterflies and the thrills? Is it worth the risk and the effort? What do you do with that "I didn't deserve to be treated like this" feeling? Is it possible a WAH could behave in a way that helps to heal the breach of trust?
Again... Not that we're remotely there. I guess I'm just trying to determine that what I'm doing is worth all the risks to me and the kids.
And it occurs to me... In response to my finding out he was still chasing OW in May, I told him when to move his stuff out of the house, I called the lawyer, I proposed legal separation and ultimately divorce. And I really haven't done anything to make him think I've wavered on that except that email two weeks ago.
I see that I still have a ton more work to do on myself but I've come a long way. I am facing my anger with him now and it hurts more than anything, because *I* own this and I'm really struggling to let it go.
I wish I were a better person.
I often wonder if the WAS ever needs to come face to face with the damage they've done by leaving. Taking them back with open arms is one thing but what's to say it'll never happen again. I'd need more than a promise. Behaving in a way that helps heal the breach of trust would be great, huh? I wonder what that would look like.
You're owning your chit, but there's no rush to let it go. It's an organic process that happens in time. Making it happen or forcing it makes it less authentic, I think. You're not a bad person because you're struggling with letting things go. You're HUMAN.
Maybell,
It hurts my heart to hear you say "I wish I were a better person."
It is completely reasonable for you to feel hurt and angry.
All in good time.
Have compassion for yourself. You are an amazing person.
Claire, it hurts my heart that your H won't engage with you. You are lovely and deserve to be fought for.
Ss, your H should appreciate and work with you less selfishly.
Thanks for checking in!
Maybell
Thanks. Any thoughts on how to (or whether to) respond to the latest? I should speak to Chuck first probably. His advice was to keep in mind that his fear, and revised narrative of the M is trumping everything else. So any chance I have to show him a different version of me might make him mad because it complicates his revised narrative and makes walking away harder.
So as not to hijack... in terms of your sitch-- maybe you can think about it in similar terms? I know you have resisted those family dinners.... but I was wondering whether those kinds of interactions felt happy (for you? for him?) in the past? So often, time with young kids ends up being about just getting through it, or focusing solely on the kids. Maybe he is wanting to see a different version of that? A version where you can enjoy each other's company AND the kids simultaneously? Or maybe it's a chance to show him the best "mom+wife" version of yourself? Does that even make any sense?
OTOH, it's totally reasonable for you to not feel ready or interested in that kind of interaction. You know your sitch the best, of course.
Crossed! I answered on your thread. Didn't see it till after you posted this. Do you have an appointment with Chuck set up?
I went to the family dinner on Sunday and it did go well. H arranged the kids so he and I sat next to each other. He offered to share a bottle of wine. He said he had a good time at the end. I was certain he'd drop the idea of lunch this week but he pursued it and even tentatively mentioned dinner.
I'm not ready for dinner. But we're having lunch tomorrow.
All this because I followed Chuck's advice of smiling more.
Also the changes I've made in being more relaxed with the kids really showed. I used to feel so much pressure to parent them perfectly. It made it hard to enjoy them. Now H is gone I've really turned to them for a lot of my enjoyment and so become more relaxed about them being themselves. It shows in all ways.
I had a huge dream a couple of nights ago, very gory and incredibly vivid. It has fed a lot of my anxieties about this situation. I wish I knew better what to do with it.
"I used to feel so much pressure to parent them perfectly. It made it hard to enjoy them"
YEP. Me too. And it made all our family outings "fraught" because I was always so stressed. That's no way for anyone to live.
I'm glad you and he were able to enjoy the family dinner. Good luck with the lunch-- I hope it goes just as well. And I'm glad that Chuck's advice helped in some way! Tiny baby steps towards the positive, right? Complicate their revised narrative.
As for the dream... Hmm. Share it with your IC. Or tuck it in a mental box and store it away. No urgent need to analyze right now, right? Having anxiety about all of this, especially recent changes, is totally reasonable! Maybe your brain is allowing you to process those anxieties subconsciously so that they don't impact your waking life as much?
Shared it with my IC. He saw it as my body screaming at me to walk away from my H. Since I can't truly walk away from him for 10-12 years, I think I have to consider a more nuanced message. Like maybe the anger and resentment need to be jettisoned.
Well, this is a life changing experience. Those don't get processed in ten minutes.
So, your IC is encouraging you to just drop the rope and call it quits? I think that's unfortunate, especially since your H does seem to be reaching out to you in positive ways. (And I totally relate-- I have to constantly remind myself that my IC is not a DB coach, and her advice will be different, so I have to filter everything she says through that lens.)
There's a way to look at his interpretation: it could very well mean that your body is screaming at you to walk away... perhaps in the same way that many of our WAS's see no other option. But there is another part of your brain who knows that there is another option. Our subconscious expresses and processes things-- but that doesn't mean we have to 'listen' to it like a fortune teller.
I like your interpretation, about casting off the anger and resentment, much better. I'm picturing a space shuttle that breaks off from the larger rocket that is no longer useful and is just weighing it down, which then allows the smaller, lighter part to soar even higher and literally explore new worlds.
(Ok, maybe I am stretching that metaphor!)
Yes, IC has been encouraging me to drop the rope since the last MC appointment. He didn't know about H being in contact with OW at that time. I think my H confuses the IC as much as he confuses me. (He's said so!)
Well, it's a long haul. So I'm off to bed and hoping for a good night's sleep.
My life and my Facebook feed today are full of splitting couples, but a friend (not close at all) at school this morning said she was praying for us and had good feelings that we could work things out. I feel wary and uncertain of what would be the best thing.
But people come back from these things. Can you make happily it to fifty years after something like this?
Does it matter? It isn't even on the table at the moment. One day at a time.
First off, you are a "better" person. You have come a long way.
You have to be willing to see that. We can affirm you but if you don't believe it, it means nothing. ((( )))kill whatever voice that is in your head that keeps you doubting yourself.
Is it fun to be together again? Do you enjoy one another? Is any part of it like it was in the beginning, with the butterflies and the thrills? Is it worth the risk and the effort? What do you do with that "I didn't deserve to be treated like this" feeling? Is it possible a WAH could behave in a way that helps to heal the breach of trust?
Yes, it's fun to be together. There are thrills but it's not an everyday occurrence so if you're expecting life to be as it was in the early days of the R, you'll be disappointed.
It's work, as in any R. Is it work everyday? To some extent, yes. I think most of us get here to DB because we weren't working on the R, we bought the message that a "good" R will just happen. Or we were on autopilot, wrapped up in kids and jobs and whatever else life threw at us or we took on. The M was way down on the list. Using our gift of time by figuring out who we are, our boundaries, our worth, makes the work easier. Learning to act from love (if we truly do love our S) and keeping the R first, much like you quoted from another poster, is key.
On some days I miss being footloose, that's when the work is difficult. On those days, I remind myself that there's probably something in my mind that's keeping me stuck, usually one of those "shoulds," I should do this, I should do that, I shouldn't feel _____, he should, he shouldn't...
I take time to figure that out, not just rush off to do something else to distract my mind. I have to take care of my "stuff."
I'm not sure what you mean by risk, so I won't answer that. All life is a risk and filled with uncertainty. I try to accept life on life's terms.
I think the answer to your trust question is, at some point you have to decide you're going to trust him. He'll either be worthy of it or he won't. Again, knowing your boundaries and believing you have a duty to yourself to have boundaries is key.
Maybelle, you're doing great clawing through all this. You're going to emerge from this tunnel into the sunlight.
What does drop the rope mean to you? There are different definitions. (the term has spurred a few range wars here, in fact)
I feel like my support team is at war -- the side that says WALK AWAY, you are worth more than this and he doesn't want you anymore and the side that says STAND, marriage is bigger than just you and it's important to make the effort however things work out. The IC wants me to just walk away and find someone better. (As though there's no risk there!!!)
I don't know what I meant when I said I wish I was a better person. I don't like feeling all that anger, it reminds me too much of how my mother thinks, all resentful and expecting life to give her things when life is so impersonal. It troubles me to be conflicted about being angry for having been mistreated and also wanting to see the good in him. Today I'm in a different place... we've both made mistakes and I'm willing to see him fresh for today.
I do worry about what all this is doing to my kids, and what the effort to save it (if it failed) could do to them as well.
Off to lunch... wish me luck!!!
OK.
I *think* that if we salvaged this it would be all right.
I don't even know where to start.
He really does just want to see me smile. To know how I am. Maybe to start over. Ish. But not ready yet to talk about it like that. Just to see if there's there there.
Total mind reading, maybe.
It was a relaxed lunch. Sort of. As much as it could be. There was a short moment when he shared something he had done and I asked questions about it and we both smiled and chuckled and it was purely just him and me. It was like this golden little second and our eyes met and I wished I knew how to stretch it out. There were a couple of other tiny moments when we connected but none so good as that one.
Just one moment like that is enough to start. So that's OK.
Nobody talked about dating. Nobody talked about divorce.
Nobody talking about divorce was kind of a big deal because one of his good friends from college announced on Facebook today that she and her H of 16 years have decided to divorce. She made it sound like they'd decided to move to a foreign country, it was that civilized. I'm reasonably sure H saw it. It was a punch in the gut to me even though I've never met her. H and I have been married sixteen years. I hope it was a punch in his gut too because the way people responded to it (even though it was all positive, and many people said they were happily coparenting their kids) it sounded so... icky. So... undesirable. To me, at least.
I do not want to be divorced. I will learn to forgive, I will learn to let go of anger, I will learn to be bigger. It is not worth it to be divorced. I don't know why my gut was screaming that when I saw her post, but it was.
Anyway... It was a short lunch but that's OK. H said he had a good time and was going to keep inviting me out and said "And you can invite me out too." I raised my eyebrows and he said "Really!" I said, OK, I can't tell.
That was as close as we got to R talk and we both shied away from it and hugged goodbye.
There's more... he repeated that I should buy the washer & dryer, he asked me a LOT about the job search, in detail. I asked what was going on with him and he said just work. I said, look at all you've asked me about the job search, do you think you would ask me less about it when I have a job? I am just as interested in you. He said "I know" but didn't offer a whole lot more. However, he did say a little bit more than he'd said when we were living together so that's something.
I think I've figured out what makes me a DB Weeble Wobble... He is my husband. I was committed to him ALWAYS. I may not have done a great job of balancing my needs and his needs and the relationship, I may not always have acted in the best interests of the relationship, but I have committed to him and to the marriage. I see him and I see my husband. The idea of him being anything other than that, or anyone else filling that role for me is inconceivable. I have been profoundly hurt and disappointed by him. I've been and sometimes still am really angry and resentful, and not just for the affair and its aftermath. But he's still my husband.
So I have to balance that truth with my anger and fear and work towards happiness. I'm in such a different place now.
I am soooo Team Maybell! I meant to reply earlier to your "two camps" post. I think everyone here probably has a version of that issue. Pretty much everyone in my life is giving me the "Throw the Bum" out speech. And they tend to fill my head with even darker suspicions. The only one who is super enthusiastic about my efforts to preserve the marriage is my MIL.
I've actually decided to stop venting other than on this forum, because while I appreciate the love and support - I know this undermines my goal - which is that both of us will work on giving the marriage a chance.
I understand the concern about the kids being in limbo though. Personally, I've decided to give it a full year, and if there is no forward momentum (assuming there is no D in that time), I might have to take action myself.
Maybell said:
"I think I've figured out what makes me a DB Weeble Wobble... He is my husband.
"I was committed to him ALWAYS. ...I see him and I see my husband."
"The idea of him being anything other than that, or anyone else filling that role for me is inconceivable."
"I have been profoundly hurt and disappointed by him."
"I've been and sometimes still am really angry and resentful, and not just for the affair and its aftermath."
"But he's still my husband."
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Maybell, this is exactly how I feel!
It's hard to wrap my head around how MY HUSBAND can be doing this, acting this way, so detached and uncaring towards me, so much not the man I married.
No one seems to get this.
My well-meaning friends can't resist giving me unsolicited "advice", which is always some version of, "you know, you just need to let him go/move on/start a new life/give up.... people just grow apart/fall out of love/want different things in life..."
They don't understand that he's not acting like himself, that he's depressed, acting out, has had a bad personality transplant.
They want to "explain" to me WHY he's made this "decision".
He's not in a MLC, they don't "believe in it" (until it happens to them!)
They think he's just one of these people who has made a decision to change his life because of some rational thought process.
You can bet they don't ever foresee THEIR husbands doing this to them!
(I never thought it could happen to me, either.)
Of course, this does not jive with what they know of me, and how my husband could be as miserable with me as he states... but "he just doesn't love you anymore, you need to accept it so you can end your pain..."
Like these are "reasons why" it's just best to cut your losses.
But I believe that the above "reasons" for why marriages die are just EXCUSES.
They're based on feelings, not facts. Feelings change.
You were "in love" once. You can be again.
It takes WORK.
---------------------------------------
Our H's seem to have this idea that there's this shiny new life awaiting them where the perfect SOULMATE will appear, (or has appeared.)
They will always feel "in love" and no one will ever have do any work, be unhappy, ever have to say they're sorry.
They will read each other's minds and agree about everything, so they'll never have to resolve conflicts.
There won't BE ANY. Because they're "meant for each other."
It will be rainbows and gumdrops and awesome sex on all channels, all the time. They'll never get sick, never get old, never fart... and it they do, a Unicorn will pop out and sing "The Rainbow Connection" song!
We know this is a fantasy, because here we are, loving and fighting for people who we know to be operating on less than all cylinders, and--I don't know about you, Maybell--- but I wouldn't exactly describe myself as "in love" with GUBU at the moment!
Do I love him? Sure.
"In love". Not hardly.
That involves an element of illusion that I no longer have access to.
I've seen the truth, and the truth is ugly.
The truth hurts.
It will never be the same.
But as you said. You look at him, and he's your HUSBAND.
It's incomprehensible.
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Anyhow, at least you're having lunch with your H. That's a big thing!
(Apologies for the venting hijack...)
---GGG
Maybell, I was excited to check in today to see how your lunch went. I'm so glad it was positive - and even better, it sounds like it was positive for both of you. I think you are doing great. Keep up the momentum.
Hi Maybell! Glad your lunch went well and you seem to be in a positive place mentally. Good for you! And great that he enjoyed it too and said he would continue to ask you out. That is a big deal!
I liked what you wrote about the moments of connection. I had that with my H yesterday when he came by. There were these few split second moments where we were both laughing and we looked at each other and it was like back in the old days. But then we looked away or it passed... but as someone said, those moments are what makes it possible to build a new relationship.
I think it is funny that we often see each other's threads and stories and say things like "Oh wow! You are so lucky! I wish my WAS would ask me out and say he will keep doing so." (that's what I am thinking here btw) But then in our own story we see a lot of negative and the positives are not good enough for us. It sounds like things are on the positive side in your story. Congrats!
I also wanted to say that GGG's post also resonated with me. Who is this crazy jerk who replaced my loving H? And why doesn't he see the reality that nothing is perfect and everything takes work sometimes?
Good luck Maybell! And go get that new washer and dryer!
Hugs, Lisa
Your lunch sounds very nice.
This is mind-reading but it's pretty well documented around here by those who've had affairs... your H will have guilt (whether he ever admits it or not)because of the OW. Add that to the equation when you think about figuring all this out.
When will you ask him out?
I have a coaching appointment this morning so I'll discuss with Chuck but I was thinking I would invite him out after the next time he invites me out. He has another international trip next week.
However, there is something I really want to do that I think he would enjoy so I was contemplating inviting him to join me. The downside is that it's a LONG outing and I'm not sure that would be a good first invitation. It's date limited so it's do it or lose it.
In what way should I add guilt to the equation? I mean, how should I factor it in?
BTW, I did something really nice... had the kids call his mother for her birthday. Can't remember if I mentioned that before. Everybody seemed very surprised and pleased I made that gesture. I never got credit before for the efforts I made to support the kids' relationship with his family.
Think about how you feel/act when you're dragging guilt and shame around.
Another person on Team Maybell!
So glad you had an awesome lunch!
Those little moments are priceless....So glad you had one. And I totally get what you mean about how you married him for life and you can't imagine anyone else in that role...
Had a great conversation with my brother today. He has been feeling stressed at work and was venting his problems to me and how much pressure he was feeling and it suddenly dawned on me a lot of what my H had been feeling that he never shared. I said that to my brother and how much it meant to me that he was sharing wih me and that he should share this stuff with his wife.
He said no, because she worries so much it would just make home that much more difficult for him. I know my sister in law (different than the one I spent the week with) and this is true. It is also what my H said about sharing his worries with me. And looking back, I can see that he was right about that.
This seems to me to be an area that will be difficult to resolve in the short term, but something to keep in my pocket and be aware of for the future. I don't want to be like that. I want to be what I thought I was, a calm in the storm. And if he's feeling the kind of stress my brother was describing I'd like to know it for both our sakes.
This is starting to feel solvable.
That's great to hear Maybell!
This is starting to feel solvable.
Your strength and determination got you here... and THIS ^^^^ is what you just said. Do you see that?! Do you see what you typed? Do you see how far you've come?
I'm in your corner, Maybell. You're really doing a great job!
This is starting to feel solvable.
Excited for you.
Life is so great. I love how it drops people or situations in our path that allow us to see ourselves more clearly.
I hope your brother can find it in him to trust his W.
My H has been text chatting with me all afternoon and it's weird.
In my last coaching session Chuck said H is going to have to earn me back. I agree but don't know what that means or what H is doing.
After my miserable day (Is that wallowing? Damn! I think it may be.), it's really nice to read that your situation is getting better Maybell.
Feeling antsy, with a crazy urge to make something happen, not necessarily related to H. Just something. I'm trying to use the energy to get my house in order, and maybe I'll throw a small BBQ or go for a run this afternoon, but it feels like not enough.
Does anyone else get like this? What do you do about it?
I do, Maybell. I clean out closets or jump rope to get some of that energy channeled.
Hope you have a great time whatever you decide to do!
Antsiness is partly related to H. But I do think I'd be antsy if he were here too. So maybe it's him, and being impatient; and spending yesterday alone recharging so now I'm ready for my plans to get in motion; wanting my house to be like I want it already, without me having to AGAIN do all the work I've already done on seven other houses; wanting to HAVE a job rather than be looking for a job; and the front edge of fall, which always makes me restless.
I know my situation has a lot of positives. I know there is less for people to say when things start moving in a good direction. But it's also hard to be so far from the goal. I'm greedy and impatient. We could come back together today and be happier than many couples who haven't split up. So why can't we yet?
I think I feel what you are saying Maybell. but for me, it is more about having a 'set' direction for my life. Right now everything is up in the air. Will I be D? Will I stay M? Where will I be living 1 year from now? Where will the kids be, and who with? And a million other things which just seem to be on hold until I get this whole M figured out. I want movement, one direction or another. Preferably one, but movement allows you to plan for what is ahead. I too am very impatient at times.
pilot -
Just chiming in. I feel this every day and said it over and over.
I find myself putting all of the house projects on hold indefinitely because I just don't know enough - too many questions about the future.
I just look for a direction. I can make decisions and plans if there was just movement.
So make something happen.
Would it be wrong to invite H to bring the kids back early so we can grill out before he flies away?
My thoughts always goes back to:
is she really working to fix things internally?
is she just 30 seconds from getting there and I have just pushed too early?
Sounds weak - I know.
Would it be wrong to invite H to bring the kids back early so we can grill out before he flies away?
No, as long as you don't get caught up in his response.
thanks!
Can somebody explain why it's so hard for me to reach out with an invite to me H? He's said he wants one. I have one in mind. And I'm afraid to execute.
I know why I find it hard. I guess I just hope someone's got a spine to loan. I'll give it right back!
Why? Because you're afraid to look vulnerable. The truth is, you can invite him without being actually vulnerable. This is how I do it.
I mentally prepare myself for a NO. How would that feel? Are you worried about how you'd look? Rejected? Like he has all the power? Like you're left behind again? Maybe... BUT here's the thing, it's JUST an invite. How would you feel if you invited a friend over and they said, "oh thank you so much but tonight is not a good night". You'd say, "Oh no big deal, another time perhaps. Done.
Here's how you make it so you are prepared for that. Have a back up plan! Before you ask H call a friend and say, "I'm inviting H to do something but I'm finding it hard. If he says No, are you available for a glass of wine so I can not feel like a rejected loser sitting at home on the couch after my H just said No?" If H says yes, you're off the hook until Tuesday (or whatever) and the drink is on me!"
Now you have a back up plan. So what's the worst that can happen? He says Yes, you're good. He says No, you're good, too.
Now make the call!
How's that for a realistic spine lending?
No expectations.
Think through what you will say if he says yes...and if he says no.
You got this one, Maybell!
I invited him to come grill at the house and he turned it into bowling (both with kids).
I didn't drag out the exchange but he sent me one to thank me for offering.
All I have to do now is look fantastic and be ready to smile. Decent bowling wouldn't hurt.
Thanks for the spines!!
Woo hoo! You did it!! And it turned out well! Bowling is a GREAT way to be playful and fun (flirty?), have a blast with the kids and to cheer him on a bit (encouraging him to cheer you on!).
Spray purfume on the bottom part of your hair so that when it moves it'll smell amazing.
You SO got this, Maybell!!!
No expectations except FUN and smiles!
Ooh, thanks for the perfume tip. I bought a new one after he left that I really like.
Bowling was something we always enjoyed together. Better than grilling. Should be fun!
I bought a new perfume after my H left, too. It was my "strength scent". Which one is yours?
Calvin Klein Downtown. Sexier than Happy -- it makes me feel desirable.
TMI?
What's yours?
TMI? Not at all! I went with Ralph Lauren Romance. Makes me feel feminine but self-assured.
THIS is the kind of stuff that helps us stand up. It's the little things like perfume that we still got it INSIDE. We don't need others to tell us, we KNOW it. We just have to become it.
Rock on, Maybell.
Now I want to go buy new perfume!
My big beauty change post-S is to get my eyebrows waxed. My eyebrows are blonde so I've never really worried too much about maintenance, but I feel so much more put-together now.
Elsa, eyebrows are HUGE when it comes to your face structure. I didn't realize that myself until I had mine done and WHOA! Game changer.
I'm happy to see so many women taking care of themselves for themselves. How awesome is that?
We need a thread for beauty tips?
If that was all it took...
I want to go back to the vulnerable piece for a minute, see how in being vulnerable you took a step forward?
We often are so paralyzed by our fear of getting hurt, looking foolish, rejection that we create just what we don't want.
You can't have a true connection with anyone without vulnerability. It's all about "daring greatly." (Brene Brown)
Have fun bowling.
There's a lot of suspicion still lurking around.
If he was this willing to be open to connection then why couldn't he have been all along?
What if I'm misconstruing what he's doing? What if he really does just want to transition us to friendly in preparation for divorce and I'm letting him?
(DB coach says assume he's doing what I'm hoping for because it feeds the likelihood I'm right... But what if that's magical thinking?)
I expect to hear: he's willing to connect because of my changes. He couldn't before because he wasn't there. I wasn't there. OW was in the picture.
It's a measure of how bad things were before that I don't believe he could miss me. When he traveled for work I thought it was out of sight, out of mind because he's so focused and what he does is so interesting.
Or maybe I've gotten used to (or always have) thought of myself as invisible.
Geesh!
There's a lot of stuff swirling in your head that getting back together won't solve.
What if you're misconstruing? You tried something, went out on a limb for you, it's didn't work, life goes on.
It says nothing about your worth as a human being.
But, you're in a better place than you were before. (or at least it appears so from the outside)
Your last sentence, powerful.
I am in a better place than I was before, undoubtedly. Getting back together solves nothing but what are essentially surface issues. Definitely true.
Also... This experience is teaching me that I am not invisible and that I have always mattered more than I realized, even to people who are far away. (Facebook helps!
)
So I guess I want validation that I matter in the form of mattering to my husband.
It ended up being BLTs at home rather than bowling out. So it was a dud.
I had the TV on as I was straightening up the house, just so I could have sound in the house, and once everybody got in and got settled and my H brought in the couple of groceries he had, he just sat down in his same old chair and watched what was on. I sat in the chair next to him and we had very stilted conversation for a little over an hour. It was not enjoyable at all. Marginally better than before he left.
Kids (especially D11) pushed my buttons the entire time H & I made lunch together and during lunch. It was SO FRUSTRATING. I'm not inviting him to spend an afternoon with me with the kids again for a very, very long time, if ever.
I think we both wanted the afternoon to be better. He steered them away from the bowling, so I don't know what he was expecting but I couldn't meet it. I tried to talk to him about movies I've seen, the cool wine place I went to on Friday, the books I've been reading... it's so, so hard to get him going on a conversational volley. Nothing caught. He sat there in that ^#@*&(%*& chair and I HATE IT.
He was more understanding about the kids pushing my buttons. But it was REALLY HARD to 180 this pattern. I don't know how to do it.
When we were almost through with lunch I thought, well, never mind, I guess we don't need to be married anymore. I can't get his attention. I can't get him to engage. I don't know what he wants but it seems to not be me.
And then I cried when he left. (Still crying)
I wish someone could explain to me how I can love someone and feel so frustrated by his presence at the same time.
I hate how things are. I want them to be better. I miss who I thought he was. This is DEPRESSING.
Ss, I don't know if he ever smelled my perfume. It's hard to smell sexy when you're frying bacon.
Oh, yeah, and he asked how far into the future our kid schedule goes. Which wasn't exactly disappointing but was not really the sort of comment that would bring us closer together either. Not that he seems to really think like that anyway.
How did I get here??????????
And before anybody says EXPECTATIONS, I'll just say... I am not aware that I had any expectations because I EXPECTED us to go bowling. Once he came to the house instead I was really just trying to behave like he was a friend but he couldn't do it. And I'm saying that sincerely. I was treating him almost as I treat my SAH dad friend and with my SAHD friend I get stuff back, recommendations for YouTube videos, jokes, stories about the kids, whatever. With my H... crickets.
What am I hanging on for? Have I been telling myself fairy tales for years?
LOL, Maybell, for most men, bacon is a much sexier smell than any perfume so the effort may have been moot BUT I guarantee he smelled it. Guarantee.
On a more serious note, I am so sorry it was a dud. How did it go from a prospective bowling adventure to you frying up bacon and making BLTs while he sat in his chair and zoned out? Hello old habits that clearly aren't working. What was he THINKING?
So, what did you learn about yourself with this experience?
What are you going to do differently?
I personally think you were stomped all over. Everyone just came home and you made lunch. That wasn't the plan. WTH? Even though everyone settled I would have flipped off the TV (yes, with H staring at it from his chair) and said, Ok, time to go! How could you have been more assertive about expressing your desires in this situation?
You should NOT have to work so hard to engage another human being let alone your H. What is that about? Is he purposely trying to be difficult?
Don't let this keep you from making invitations again but give yourself some time to heal from this one. Perhaps your H needs an environment where he can't be distracted by TV and the kids and the incredible smell of bacon. BLTs at your house seems like a lot of work for you and that wasn't considered.
Why did H not take that &*^*%&% chair with him when he moved out? I'd have trouble looking at it every day.
(((hugs))) to you maybell. One day at a time. Do something for YOU right now. Seriously. If that means cry into a warm bath tub, go for it.
Maybell, sorry about your yucky day!
And yes I agree that bacon smells sexier than any perfume.
I had similar experiences with my WAH the last times I saw him. I felt I was trying to get an interesting conversation going, telling him about books I had read or fascinating people I had met and he was just blah. And I thought why am I trying so hard with someone who is so dull. There was a big chunk of time I just sat there in silence, waiting for him to say something interesting. So I asked him about his work and he told me one sentence about a technical project he was working on, and I said "wow that sounds interesting and difficult!" and he said "no, it isn't."
OK.... forget it.
Sometimes we just have those days where we wonder why we care.
The advice and feedback Ss gave above is spot on! Next time do what YOU want. And maybe if everyone is being boring and bratty just leave them alone together and walk out.
Hugs, LisaB
D11 went straight to the bath as soon as he left. This is hard for her too. She was trying to be goofy but was also clearly stressed and it was difficult. The first thing she said when she got home was how good I smelled.
We actually cooked the lunch together. That part was not horrible.
He didn't totally zone out. But we weren't on the same page at all. I guess I did hope for more.
His dad used to come home from work, walk through the house and turn on all the TVs really loudly without regard to channel (there is one in every room and the channels rarely matched), and go outside to mow the lawn. Every day. It's REALLY loud at my in-laws' house. All they ever do is watch TV. So I think there's something a little screwy with my H's brain (besides the ADD).
It will be many, many a day before I issue another invitation. He's going to have to step up a little bit better before that happens. And you can bet it won't include the kids again. And it doesn't even matter since he's leaving for another 10-day trip. It was supposed to only be five but they tacked on another five over the weekend. Which also ruins my plans for next Sunday.
He apologized for messing up my plans for Sunday, said he doesn't mind me getting a babysitter, and that he was willing to babysit anytime I needed him.
He's NOT A BABYSITTER. He's their DAD.
H bought all new furniture when he got his apartment. He only took his home office furniture and the guest room furniture when he left. But I think I'm going to change the living room a little more.
I'm so sick of his travel. I'm so sick of all of this. I hate it. I really, really hate it. It seems everyone in the world thinks I'm fun to hang out with except my own husband.
Lisa, Is this a thing? Where husbands leave their beautiful, engaging wives to go be blah????
haha apparently so. Idiots.
Maybell,
I say this with 100% honesty...
I hardly know you beyond your marital situation, which is a rather intimate thing to know about someone when you don't know the rest of them all that well but I digress. What I DO know is that I think you are incredibly FUN, hilarious, engaging and overwhelmingly supportive. If I can see those things from 4,000 miles away then your H is BLIND.
I'm sorry.
Ss, thank you so much, that's really kind of you.
Maybe I would see the day as having gone better if I had been more willing to meet him where he IS. Which is in a place that's not terribly attractive. Where I don't want to be for any length of time.
I will give him credit... he was trying harder than he tried while he actually lived in the house. I suppose that's something.
Well, I looked pretty good. I've managed a LOT of stuff completely without him. He said he wanted an invitation, I gave it, and I met him prepared to talk about things that weren't the kids.
Ball's in his court now. He's out of the country for ten days and I've got a life.
Maybe I would see the day as having gone better if I had been more willing to meet him where he IS. Which is in a place that's not terribly attractive. Where I don't want to be for any length of time.
I'm confused by this. Perhaps it's the lack of coffee in my system but why would you backslide to meet him where he IS? You be where you ARE. You've worked hard to get there and if where he is is rather unattractive then for goodness sake, don't go there. Let him rise to meet you. I know you're worried that he won't but don't backslide to make it easier for him.
You have worked TOO hard.
I mean... if *I* had accepted that what I got from his was as good as I was going to get maybe I wouldn't have hoped to see that pattern broken.
But really, I think what it means is, we'll have to establish new patterns away from home and the kids before I can trust him in the house again.
I want to say "I hate him" but I know that's not true so I'll just say "I'm so tired of struggling with something that seems so obvious."
Got it! Ok. Makes good sense and is VERY assertive and strong. Stick with that.
It's hard to understand why the WAS isn't working on breaking patterns like we are. There are 10,000 reasons but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt when we realize they aren't even on the same sports arena as we are sometimes. And then they leave after having eaten their amazing BLT (metaphor for cake) and go off into WAS land.
I understand you're tired of struggling with something so obvious. It does seem obvious. And it seems uncomplicated to fix and actually rewarding for ALL involved if it were fixed, right? Alas.
I'm so glad he's going to be gone for so long. I need a reset. I deserve better and almost every person in my life gives me better than he does. I need to detach more. I feel icky.
And just had a number of text exchanges about bill stuff (came up after he left, he hadn't looked at the bills before that) and he couldn't even sweeten it with anything personal.
Is that me or him?
How am I supposed to go to IC on Wednesday with this experience and not hear the C tell me again to walk away from him?
GAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One quick edit to say... I am doing a 180 right this minute by venting all this here instead of at him. He's getting silence from me. I can't do this any more. I'm so tired of letting him hurt me. I wish I had not invited him.
vent, vent, vent. this is the place for it.
Dont' expect sweetened texts. Have no expectations... because when you do, you get to make BLTs (metaphor for nothing changing and getting taken advantage of). Expectations create opportunities for disappointment and it's hard to prepare for that.
I hate that you have to fight for your right to fight for your marriage with IC. Hmmm... I have to think more about that one.
What did he want an invitation for if that's all that was going to happen???
I'm not sure that's what his plan was (but I don't know him like you do).
He's a confusing dude, that's for sure.
Next time I'd say, "I'll meet you all at the bowling alley" but I completely understand that being MONTHS away, Maybell.
Maybell,
I'm sorry the afternoon was a bit of a bust. I commend your effort and don't be so hard on yourself. You are a smart, funny lady who is doing a wonderful job with your kids in very trying circumstances.
I'm going to take a stab here that you may want to consider for future invitations. If I remember correctly, the dynamic (not the behavior) that played out today was similar to the way your M was. If I'm confusing you with someone else I do apologize. However, staying home IMHO only reinforced the previous dynamic. Your h *expects* you to raise the kids and he obviously has a rather hectic work life. Switch it up. Should you decide to extend an invite in the future, try a "let's meet at x!"
And don't get me started on fathers who say they babysit their own kids. I know one of those rather well.
You tried. It wasn't perfect although your armed some things. Dust yourself off and move on:-)
Hey Maybell, I'm sorry it didn't go so well. I don't know enough about your daft sod of a husband to remotely know what he was thinking ... or not thinking, but maybe he was afraid of your new-found superpowers.
Anyway, if he's away for a few days, it'll give you time to recharge your batteries. Not quite the same insight as pilot eh?
I attempted to start a conversation with my daft sod of a wife the other day by asking her about her work. Her reply wasn't quite monosyllabic, but not far off it. She just didn't want to engage with me and it felt so stilted.
Keep on keeping on.
(Not so) Old Dog xx
He didn't hug me goodbye. I won't see him for two weeks. Was that my fault or his doing?
Thanks, everybody. Yes, no more invites for times when the kids will be home and awake. GeorgiaBelle you nailed it.
N-S OD, very nice of you to not 2x4 me about expectations. Why don't you hand me back the one I gave you?
But I won't be making any invitations at all for a number of weeks.
Ok, dusting myself off. I learned something. Done now.
Can I just ask you all to stop writing "BLT"? It is making me want one so badly!
Maybell you are aweome! Enjoy these 10 days off without that annoying dingbat around and I'm betting you'll feel a lot better upon his return and be ready to face the next drama.
Hugs! LisaB
Maybell,
I'm sorry you had a rough go of it. It took a lot of... oomph to extend the invite and to have it fall flat feels tough, I'm sure. But I love how you are going to "dust yourself off" and just keep on keeping on.
A couple of other related thoughts... that are still forming in my head so I'm sorry if I ramble a bit:
1) I totally empathize with hesitating to discuss this stuff with IC. Happened to me tonight.
IC: "Do you feel like you can possibly see yourself with someone else in the future? Can you see that you won't be alone?"
Me: Of course. (In my head: But that is not what I want! I went on a LOT of dates before I met my H. I've seen who was out there 10 years ago! I've seen my friend's H. NO ONE is perfect. Everyone's got their Sh!t. There is no prince charming out there just waiting for me to find him and live happily ever after! Every R will take a LOT of work. SIGH.)
Hope this isn't a hijack. I should post this on my thread, but just felt like responding to what you wrote earlier.
2) I was also thinking about your frustrations with your H. It does seem like he is having a hard time breaking patterns.
I mean... if *I* had accepted that what I got from his was as good as I was going to get maybe I wouldn't have hoped to see that pattern broken.
No, you definitely shouldn't settle for less that what you deserve. But (and maybe this is what you meant), could you accept that this is as good as you'll get
right now? Can you detach enough to, in those moments when he can't open up or connect with you, sort of smile under your breath and pity him rather than be angry or feel rejected? Say to yourself, (to the tune of "I'm so fancy")
"I'm so awe-some, he don't even kno-ow, he's such a fool, to let me go-o-o"Maybe it's not "no expectations" but
very, very low expectations. He just might meet those...
Your number 1 has been my position from the beginning.
How you rephrased me for number 2 is right. But I think maybe I don't need to put myself through this garbage for a long while. I've been asking for these changes for years. I'm doing my best to be better and I feel like I am better. But seriously, I can get a better hour from a stranger on an airplane than I can from my own H. He doesn't seem to care at all if I find him attractive. And I'm about as easy to please as a person can be.
I think I'd like to take a break from him for a while. I think I'd like to pretend for a while that we have NO relationship that concerns me or that requires my attention. I'm on sabbatical from this whole marriage thing. Until he gets his chit together he can have his chit to himself. I'm done for a while, at least. I don't know if I'm done for good, but for now, I've had enough.
Maybe I overreacted. Maybe I failed to see the good points.
He was nice to me. He was helpful. He was more supportive of me with the kids than he was before. He didn't help with the dishes but he did spend time with the boys in the yard. He didn't completely ignore me and he thanked me several times for lunch, apologized for messing up my plans for next weekend and repeated his offer of help.
He got oddly excited to see a Bud Light in the refrigerator. I had three different small-label beers (from parties) and one lonely little Bud Light and he drank the Bud as his second beer.
That tells me he likes things that are familiar. Hes a small-town guy so that makes sense.
I forgot to ask about the football game that's important to him, so I guess I was a little self-absorbed that way.
He sounds resigned about his travel. Said the places he goes aren't special or charming, they're just cities. I guess I'm a little worried he's burning out. I have been jealous of his travel and it sounds like to him it's more hassle than fun.
I've heard him be engaging and fun with acquaintances. But with people he knows well and cares about it's like he can't figure out... I'm trying to explain this... I can't decide if he doesn't know how much people want to hear from him, or if he feels pressured and too much in the spotlight, or if he really doesn't believe he's that interesting, or if he's so unhappy with his life that he's really that uncomfortable talking about it, or if it's the ADD. I guess that's his mess to sort out.
In the meantime... I am not really as done as I'd like to be. I took my ring off last night and this morning put it back on again. Six whole hours, most of them asleep, and it felt so wrong I couldn't last the night.
And I'm not inviting him home again while the kids are awake but I'll keep a couple of Bud Lights around for him I suppose. (Frankly I like them in my refrigerator, that's what we were like when we were happy.)
And use the next ten days to reset and try to just be curious about what happens next. I need to remember what a long way we've come since Mother's Day.
I do wish he'd hugged me before he left though.
Oh maybell, that tough.
There was some good. Not that I'm any version of a judge. None.
Thanks, Ggrass. There was. I don't know what I was hoping for. Partly the kids just wore me out.
The wine place I went to is really cool and exactly the sort of thing I would have expected him to be excited about a few years ago. But he just picked it completely apart. Didn't ask about the wines. Wrinkled his nose and criticized every aspect. Everything I would have expected him to find cool he just looked skeptical about.
So... He's depressed? Or something like that?
I bought the washer & dryer and was super proud of the great deal I got on them. He was interested in that whole area. I thanked him for them and he said "I hope you wouldn't think I'd mind about that?" That was hard to answer. It's nice that he wants to be generous with money (he always has been) but it's not a substitute for the other things I really want. I suspect he wants me to acknowledge that. So I guess I ought to but it feels like selling myself. Am I being prideful and unappreciative?
I've thought he was MLC since BD. I wasn't sure what difference that made but now I think it does. Because this isn't about me at all.
I was wondering if I have another year in me. I think I do, because it's just the school year and it's not like I'm sitting around waiting for him. Another two? That I'm not so sure about.
So I guess I'll just see how it goes.
I think it's good that you're considering the positives that you may have overlooked before. I find that it's easy to dwell on the negatives but when I make a conscious effort to look for positives, I almost always find some (and I feel better in the process, too).
That tells me he likes things that are familiar. Hes a small-town guy so that makes sense.
...
I've heard him be engaging and fun with acquaintances. But with people he knows well and cares about it's like he can't figure out... I'm trying to explain this... I can't decide if he doesn't know how much people want to hear from him, or if he feels pressured and too much in the spotlight, or if he really doesn't believe he's that interesting, or if he's so unhappy with his life that he's really that uncomfortable talking about it, or if it's the ADD. I guess that's his mess to sort out.
I wonder if these might be related. Perhaps his True Self is introverted, but he has to put on a show for people who don't know him well to build up his social/business Q. I know my H just wants to be able to be himself around me. Maybe it isn't all bad that he mostly rested in his favorite chair. He felt comfortable enough to relax and fall into his old routine. He felt comfortable just being "him."
Now, I have no idea if I'm analyzing him correctly, but if I am, is that something that you could live with? If it turns out that his lack of sharing about himself is just his personality and not a reflection of how he feels about you, or the R, does it change how you feel about it? I ask because I'm wrestling with some of the same questions. If my H's lack of affection is just his personality, can I live with it? No, I need affection in an R. But his introvertedness? (My H is also an introvert.) I think I can learn to accept that. I'm not saying that you have to live with it, but I think it's a question worth pondering.
I feel you on the lack of a hug. Is it possible that he didn't know that you wanted a hug? Could he have been expecting you to initiate one, and took the fact that you didn't as a sign that you didn't want one? I really don't understand how our Hs don't KNOW a hug is expected under those circumstances, but somehow, sometimes, they just don't.
This conversation about introvertedness and its effects on a R is really interesting to me. In my case, I'm the introvert. I'm not "antisocial", but I most definitely need alone time to recharge. My job as an educator requires me to be "on" and social for most of the day. Then, when I get home, I'm"on" as a mom. By the time my H got home, I needed some alone time-- which could look like vegging on the couch for a bit or mindlessly surfing the web before dinner. I had nothing left at that point in the day to jump into a lengthy conversation -- not even about a substantive, personal topic (like his day at work), but definitely not about something less substantive (like what I call "Seinfeld chit chat".)
I think my H saw that as rejection... or maybe he just wants and needs the opposite. <---- that is my biggest fear about my M. That he simply has come to realize that my core personality doesn't meet his needs. And I guess I would agree that is something I cannot change (or, perhaps the effort to do so would not meet my needs).
Or... (more optimistically), is that something that a MC could help us understand about each other and help us each move a tiny bit closer to the other? Like, if my H had seen my "ignoring" him as refueling, and came over to bring me a glass of wine and a kiss on the head instead of being angry at me. .. would that have shifted our dynamic enough to change everything? And. . I could have either pushed myself a bit more of communicated my needs more clearly.
Hmmm.
He's an introvert. We talked in MC about ways that he could recharge when he got home so that he would be more available to me when we could both give one another our full attention but by then he was deep into OW and uninterested in changing up our routine. I don't mind quiet. The space between us was much bigger than that.
I'm feeling despair this morning. Out of nowhere. I wish I understood it. I want to ask if he cares about me anymore but I know that's a bad idea.
How much longer can I do this?????
Maybell & Claire,
I just wanted to say something to you both. You are both doing a wonderful job and I've watched big changes in you both. I know you want to save your Ms-I totally understand that. However, please don't think that because your R isn't where you want, that your aren't making progress. Don't discount the importance of you based on the current state of your M. You are making great strides and you will be fantastic regardless of what happens.
Sending you "the circle of trust" sign. Hang in there:-)
Thank you, GeorgiaBelle. I feel awful today. I don't think I have any more in me. I think I have to let go. At least for a while. But I hurt too much. I am tired of trying to find tiny crumbs of good. I've been trying for so long. I think I need to let go.
I know families where the husband has pillow fights with the kids. Comes to school with them on the first day. Compliments the wife to the kids. I'm thanking him for letting me spend money on a washer and dryer and sympathizing that the children he spends four days a month with get up at 7:00 when they stay with him.
He can do better and he won't. I think I need to let go. I don't need to hold on to a half life.
Maybell, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but sometimes in the space of just a few hours of posting you change your mind about things. For example, you woke up this morning and felt like maybe you hadn't acknowledged the positives and thought you did have a year left.. now you think you don't..?
I think - and I know I've said this before, and maybe a few others have - that you need to relax. As other people on here constantly say: it's a marathon. A loooong one. What we're all seeing - and maybe you're not - is tiny, tiny baby steps from your H. Whether you are willing to stay the course or not is your decision, but don't jump the gun on whether he's willing to change, because as you said a few posts back, you guys *have* changed since Mother's Day. Maybe he's just unable to change at your pace...
Thanks, Vossy. I know I'm a Weeble Wobble. I guess we all have our quirks.
I'm just so tired. I'm not holding on for today. Which matters not at all, he's overseas and probably won't even notice. But for today, I'm letting go of him. Tomorrow is tomorrow.
I overlooked what you said about pace and baby steps. I know you're right. I'm just tired. The next two weeks looks LONG and I'm so tired. I just want to take something off my plate.
Maybell,
No great words of wisdom for you here. But a big hug. I hear you, too.
And... I would bet that he definitely still cares about you. Let yourself feel how you feel. It's totally understandable.
I know families where the husband has pillow fights with the kids. Comes to school with them on the first day. Compliments the wife to the kids. I'm thanking him for letting me spend money on a washer and dryer and sympathizing that the children he spends four days a month with get up at 7:00 when they stay with him.
I feel you , Maybell. Exactly. I used to be OK with it, just said it was my life, thought it somehow made me a better wife and mom. Not. I wonder what would have happened had I not accepted my sub-par marriage and his sub-par parenting and forced the issue 10 years ago? Obviously I'll never know, but I do think about it.
Relationships with humans, so. much. work. Hugs to you.
So don't hold on, be done. He may not be the person for you. It sounds as if you want something very different from what he has to offer. Letting go is the best thing you could do.
But you're awash in emotion right now. Give yourself some time. I've read 3 pages and you're all over the map.
If your H is an introvert, maybe having the kids for the weekend did take the starch out of him and he needed to recharge. I'm an introvert, I get that. Who knows what may have been going on with him. Did you ask him about what he was feeling?
Someone asked but I don't think you answered, how did things get off track with the bowling?
I think you warned against anyone bringing up expectations but into the breach I go...you had a lot of expectations. It's human nature cause we dislike the unknown. We want things to be a certain way. But life isn't like that.
One last thing, just because the day didn't go the way you expected doesn't mean it was a bad day. We have no idea how he felt about it.
I'm just letting go for today. Because I'm tired.
I don't feel welcome to ask how he feels, so I don't. He's closed off from everyone. But I could see that he was tired. He was tired from the kids, tired because his job requires him to be in meetings ALL the time, and he's an introvert. He has set up his life to be a ton more work than it was before (just the thought of what he has to do to park his car makes me tired) I can't tell that he gets pleasure from ANYTHING anymore. The sight of that Bud Light excited him more than I've seen in months.
I don't know what happened to the bowling. He texted me from brunch with the kids that they were going to come to the house, that they wanted to eat at home rather than bowl. When they got to the house, he said the kids would have been happy either way but he'd steered them to coming home. I don't know why. I asked. He's not very communicative. He sighed and said "they never sleep past seven." I just said "I know."
We are tired. Years of upheaval. Very little support as a family. Do you know what I'd give for us to just snuggle in the couch and rest together? But instead, we're in this exhausting place.
I know I'm super emotional. I know I had hopes (expectations) that there'd be at least a moment of connection. I know that later today, or tomorrow, I'll put my ring back on and take up the fight. But today, I'm tired and selfish and I don't want to hurt anymore.
A good ending for this chapter.