My last thread was getting a bit long and I'm not the newbie anymore. Here's the old:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2464266#Post2464266Quick summary- I have had a problem living in reality, hence my thread title. I was never there for my W because I lived in a different world, and I hurt her by trying to get her to live in my fantasy world, pressured her to do things sexually she didn't want, and was critical that she didn't measure up to my impossible expectations.
Since I've moved out I've been trying to get to know the real world. It's not easy. I question everything. For example, I was looking at women as objects of a fantasy. And though I quit using porn two months ago, I haven't stopped the solo activity that accompanied it. I didn't realize it was a problem (not like it's taking over my life and causing me consequences) but the point is that feeling the need to do that, fantasizing, using it to feel more relaxed or less needy, it's all along the same lines.
I'd recommend ANYONE who struggles with ANY type of fantasy addiction (or who's S does) to read 'the most personal addiction' at sexualcontrol.com. It says there are two kinds of needs for sex. One is the need for emotional connection, expressing love, sharing. The other is addiction driven, need for a mood altering rush, one based off control to avoid emotional intimacy or fear of rejection.
So I have a long way to go there. Also, I feel like I am scared of slipping into fantasy everywhere now. Fantasizing about how much healthier I'll be down the road after I grow for a while. The possibility of reconciliation. The good times I'll have on my own again. How much happier my future R will be either way. Etc. Sounds normal to most people maybe, but with my history of telling myself stories to escape reality I just don't know that it is healthy. Even spending time reading other peoples posts is a little escapist.
And, like many addict types, I am out of touch with my emotions, live in my head, and can spin crazy stories and tell myself that they're real. Those stories (perspectives on how I feel about my R, my sitch) tend to differ depending on what emotions I'm trying to cope with. I don't trust much right now.
So I'm just trying to ground myself. One cool thing I learned about emotional awareness is how to figure out how you're feeling. It can be hard for me, so start just with: "Am I feeling mostly OK, or kind of lousy". Even if I'm not in touch enough to really understand myself, it's a starting place so I can start reconnecting with myself.
Anyway, I've been doing pretty well this week, with a few moments of overwhelming heartbreak thrown in. One thing I know. This is the life God has given me (granted it's mixed with the consequences of the choices I have made). I can't wait until I'm 'better' someday to enjoy it so I've been allowing myself to enjoy the struggle that is life. Thanks for sharing.
Hey Zues, sounds like we have some similar personal issues. I grew up with an angry, sometimes aggressive father, and was told all throughout my childhood and adolescence to "do what I say, not what I do" and to "not be like your father". I learned to burying my negative emotions, to denying my anger, and to disconnecting from my feelings.
My wife was also angry and aggressive, which really caused me to retreat from my negative emotions. It really reinforced my bad emotional habits.
Very often, I don't even know when I'm getting angry. If I'm upset by something, I don't know why. A little over two years ago I started seeing a therapist, and it really helped (unfortunately, I had to stop seeing him for financial reasons, but once I'm working again...). Slowly (very slowly) but surely, I'm starting to identify that thing that I feel when I feel slighted or abused as anger. I still have to
tell myself that I'm feeling angry (kind of like when you start to learn a second language, and you have to tell yourself what you just read or heard in your own native tongue; I have to translate my negative feelings into English to understand that I'm feeling them), and very often I don't tell myself until after things have died down, but at least I'm making progress on that front. I'm hoping to get to the point where I can say to myself "you're starting to feel angry right now".
If you're as disconnected from your feelings as you say, I can't recommend this strategy enough. Just tell yourself how you feel. If you think there's something you should be feeling, given the current circumstances, but you don't believe you're feeling it, tell yourself that you actually are and see how you react. Don't pussyfoot around with weasel words, either. No "I should be feeling happy right now". That's a judgment call, and you've no need to get judgmental with yourself. Just tell yourself "I'm feeling happy, because..." or "I'm feeling angry right now, because...". Have that discussion with yourself.
Then have it with your support network.
As for the addiction stuff... What I'm going to tell you isn't the majority opinion on addictions. It's not exactly fringe, but it's not common core, either. It's certainly not what you'll hear at most major 12 step programmes.
I'm not an expert in addiction research, nor in addiction therapy. This is just my interpretation of addiction through my socio-political lens. Just to put that right up front.
Addictions follow from escapist activities. They're not, in and of themselves, the problem. They're just the symptom of something else.
There's nothing wrong with porn (well, issues with the industry notwithstanding). There's nothing wrong with sexual fantasy. There's nothing wrong with masturbation. You're not watching porn and self-pleasuring because you have an "addictive personality". You're doing it because the chemical rush that comes from it is acting as a band-aid for some other issue you're trying to avoid.
Also, for the record, this:
It says there are two kinds of needs for sex. One is the need for emotional connection, expressing love, sharing. The other is addiction driven, need for a mood altering rush, one based off control to avoid emotional intimacy or fear of rejection.
is some seriously sex-negative tripe. Sex can definitely enhance the emotional and social connection with another person, and that is most definitely a basic human need. There are a ton of other reasons to want or pursue sex or sexual activities, though, and they're not "addiction driven".
Yes, sex can be used as an escapist activity. So can eating. So can watching TV. So can taking long walks on the beach. No one goes around demonizing gyms for driving addiction. This is pure sex shaming, and it's not healthy. It does nothing but blame the symptom, and distract you from the underlying problem.
You've found a resource that lets you blame yourself, and which contributes to society's demonization of sex and sexual gratification. Throw it away. It's telling you that your symptoms are the problem.
If you were truly living in a fantasy world, I don't think you'd be here. There may be some harsh, hurtful, or scary aspects of reality that you're running away from, but before you continue to believe that you're suffering from delusions, go talk to someone who is qualified to diagnose such a thing. My wife (and her sister), when she started to go through whatever it is that she's going through, had me convinced that I was completely disconnected from reality, and that I was delusional. My therapist said otherwise. It took
months of me not believing my therapist before I realized that, of the four people involved in all of this (me, my wife, my wife's sister, and my therapist), only one of us was actually qualified to diagnose me as delusional, and he was the only one of us who was saying otherwise.
Remember, when you're sick and you sneeze, it's not because you have an unhealthy obsession with sneezing. You're not fixated on snot. The sneezing isn't the problem. The symptoms aren't the disease!
You've managed to reduce your porn consumption. You're trying to cut down on the amount you engage in sexual fantasy. If this leads you toward seeing women as whole human beings, who are
just like you but with a couple different body parts, that's absolutely fantastic. If you're focusing on your "sexual addictions" as the problem you need to deal with, however, you're just going to find yourself chasing a new dragon.
Spot on Spacey.
1. Emotions. I agree with your tip about emotional recognition. I've been doing that, even just doing some voice journaling on my cell phone recorder talking about how I feel, why I think that might be. What I've found is even if I think I'm unreasonable to feel that way at the time, it makes sense in retrospect. Not that I have to empower and enable those emotions into action, but at least I can validate them and learn what they are.
2. Addiction/sex. Agreed again these are symptoms. The book actually talked about how destructive 12 steps is for sex/food because these are things that are ok to partake and enjoy, and stated it is when they are used to escape that they become a problem. I did that with porn and sex so it was an issue, but the way to face that issue isn't JUST to stop my behavior, but to learn to feel my emotions and manage them.
3. Delusions. You're right, I'm not delusional. My therapist told me I'm not. He said I can get very 'busy minded' as an escape. I also have the habit of setting wildly expansive goals (best pool player in the world, run a corporation, etc.) to stay busy and focused so I'm not distracted with my emotions. While I didn't hit those goals I went a long way, but meanwhile my M broke down.
So while I have some serious areas to grow, there is nothing broken with me. In some ways that's scary. Because if something is broken I have either 1) an excuse, or 2) something I can 'work on' that might make me better. It's scary because I know I am 100% accountable, and the fact is there may be nothing I can do to 'fix' myself. That means I have to deal with feeling the way I feel right now, not making myself so perfect I don't feel this way.
And how do I feel? Overall I've been having good days, having fun, staying busy, and appreciating what I have been given. At the same time on the quiet of a Friday evening I can tell you I miss having my W's love. But I'm going to face those feelings 'sober'...
Thanks for the reply and warm wishes to those in a similar spot this evening.
It doesn't sound like you're out of touch with reality, then, Zues. You're not suffering from delusions, and your therapist confirmed it. You may prefer fantasy to reality -- and let's face it, most of us are going to prefer fantasy to reality when we're going through pain or trauma -- but having your head in the clouds is neither a crime nor a personality flaw.
Just another symptom.
I don't know your story, Zues, especially beyond your current domestic situation. I won't even begin to assume I know what you've been through. It kinda sounds like you're running from some painful or traumatic event, though. If so, I've been there. Over and over, I've been there. And if so, you just need to let yourself feel the pain so that you can grieve.
At the end of the day, it's just a moment in time, and it's just a state of mind. Feelings are temporary, even the bad ones.
I have a question. Is there a benefit to 'hope'?
Right now I am gradually letting go of hope. I don't pretend to have a crystal ball, so I'm not saying there's no hope. What hope tends to do is interfere with detachment, make me fearful and sad, and fixate me on things outside of my control.
When I let go of hope I feel more at peace. I can take care of myself, take care of my children, and focus on becoming the man I want to become. It seems that by accepting that my STBX may not look back I have been doing a bit better.
I still want to grow from my experience, and through that demonstrate 180s, validate her, etc. But I am doing that now more to grow stronger on my own and so I know that I wasn't the one that put the final nail in the coffin.
So please tell me. Is this a start towards detachment, or is there some benefit of remaining hopeful that I am missing out on?
Thank you all and goodnight.
Just got this in an email...any tips on how to reply?
"I like that we can talk now. It's tough but nice that I can get to know you as a friend as I also learn myself and who I am. I wonder though and will ask... Are you playing pool still or have you transitioned to just poker? I figure asking does no harm. Things are weird with us now but I never want to not be able to ask questions if we want to."
I have a question. Is there a benefit to 'hope'?
For some people. It depends on what those hopes are, and how you're treating them. As I'm sure you know, the phrase "no expectations" gets shouted from the rooftops around here because many people -- all of us, in one situation or another, I'm sure -- can't make the distinction.
You have to treat your hopes like something that would be nice to occur, but not something that you're relying on. I
hope I get a good parking spot at the mall, but if I don't, no harm done.
I
hope W will come home, but if she doesn't, life will go on.
There are times when we can't do that, though. Where hopes and expectations are inseparable. If you're going through that right now, it may be best to put those hopes in a drawer, and to not take them out for a while.
If we didn't have any hopes for the future, we'd have no goals, no ambitions, and no drive. Hope can do a lot for us! But sometimes it hurts us, and it's OK to put it away when it does.
...any tips on how to reply?
I wish I had some. Just reading that makes it difficult for me to breathe right now.
Hope keeps you moving forward. If I didn't have any hope I think my situation would have crushed me. I hope for everything but try to expect nothing. I am day by day and that helps a lot. I try to make my W days better and have no clue if it is working but I hope it is.
***Updates*** Got two emails back to back from my STBX:
1. You confuse me a lot. Are you seeing someone? Are you thinking we will get back together? I need to know these things. I'm glad you want to learn about how to raise the kids but I wonder why now. Was it me driving you crazy or do you expect to get back together? I don't know that I can handle either answer but it's bugging me so I have to ask.
2. Seriously why couldn't you have been like this before. You're killing me. I don't get it.
Site was down and DB coach wasn't available so I did my best. I replied with just some generalities, here's the recap:
-I'm trying to focus on the positives, the children and the chance to learn from my mistakes
-The way I was in our R didn't reflect my core beliefs
-With less access to the children I need to step up my game or they won't have me in their life and they deserve better
-I'm trying to focus on the present, trying to control the future just seems like more of the same that didn't work
-I am glad we are doing well coparenting the kids
Maybe it was too long. I tried to remain a bit mysterious and keep it vague. I thought it was progress that she notices I'm doing things differently and acknowledges that she approves. I know, however, she is very mistrustful of all of this and is in no way changing stance on anything.
THEN- tonight she lets me know that the kids had their open house for school and invited me along. I went. First time we'd done anything close to together and while it was a bit awkward at times the kids had a blast.
Anyway, all that being said...back to working on me. I'm having fun, living in the moment, dealing with negative feelings as they come, avoiding destructive behavior, being there for my kids, and really trusting that I can not only accept but thrive with whatever the future holds. Pretty cool. Thank you all for your support along the way.
***HELP***. Just got this email. How do I reply? Don't need a specific response, just general concept. She keeps asking where I'm at but isn't volunteering anything about where she's at. "A lot has happened" and "I know where I am and what I've done". Oh, for what it's worth...I absolutely would be interested in R, wouldn't really care if there was an OM in the interim...but would need her committed to IC. I know...much too soon for this, just sharing where I am. Thoughts?
***[EMAIL] You've avoided every question about us I've asked. I need to know though since you know it's not a place we planned to be in ever. Are you seeing someone else or hoping for a reconnection? A lot has gone on since you left with me and my personal life but I always wonder and need to know while I wait for someone to take my case. I hate divorce but have loved the release of anxiety since you left and the kids room that they love. But I need to know your thoughts and feelings as you are still 'Zues', still my husband for now and I'm asking for questions to things I wonder every day. Any answer is ok. Don't sensor it no matter what it is. I just have to know what is going on in your head and I can't read you. Never have been able to and I won't try. I know seeing your guy every week has helped you but I wish you'd share things with me. I know the future is scary for both of us. I know where I am and what I've done. I have no clue to you though. Will you share please?
Sorry to bump...I'm no more important than anyone else. But this is one situation I feel is critical I handle right and I'm stumped.
Zee,
Be honest with your W. Don't go all sappy. Just stick to the facts and try to keep it all in one paragraph. Own your chit.
Good luck!
That's a tough one, Zues. She's asking some pretty straight forward questions, and if you want to continue having any kind of real relationship with her, those questions deserve honest answers. As to the best way to give those answers...
Think of your 180s. Thing of the man you are working to become, and imagine how that Zues would answer the questions.
If it were me being asked these questions, I'd say something like:
You know I don't want a divorce. I believe in this marriage, and I'm open to reconnecting. You made the decision to leave, though, and I respect that that is what you feel is best for you.
And no, I'm not currently seeing anybody.
I'm sure there's a better way to address her, but that's what I have.
well, hold on. it is not right of her to ask and expect those answer yet not offer anything in return. she should be the one to offer her thoughts first (but do not hold the line on that)
Also, I would caution about working towards R if there was still an OM as the two concepts do not mix well. She either wants to work on your relationship, or she wants to be in another.
the problem with answering her honestly, as you may want to, is it 'may' do nothing other than reassure her she still has you, and she will continue on her way without ever saying a word about her feelings. My W would do this.
Maybe a way to reply is to say you have already said so much, and if she wants to talk to you about something then you will LISTEN with an open heart.
Wow Zeus, some interesting questions there from your W. I think you handled them excellently thus far.
It sounds to me like she wants answers because she is feeling uncertain about the future. She can't tell why you are making these changes. She likes them but she doesn't know if they are for real. She wants to know if you are just making the changes to get her back and then you will go back to your old ways.
And with those questioning thoughts and feelings come the next ones. Maybe you are seeing someone and that is why you are changing? Or are you changing for her? So she wants to know. I don't think she would ask if she had moved on and wasn't considering reuniting as a possibility.
Good signs I think!
How to answer? Difficult! I would say something brief and honest along the lines of:
I am not currently seeing anyone, I am focused on making myself a better person right now.
And it sounds like she wants to have more heart to heart conversations so you could also say something about that like:
If you have questions about what I am thinking, feeling or doing you can always ask. If you would like to meet up or talk on the phone or over email ... just let me know, I am always open to it. I would love to hear your thoughts and feelings as well.
or something like that.
Good luck and let us know what you decide!
Hugs, LisaB
Pilot is wise. Your W's feelings may be clear to her, but it doesn't seem as though they are clear to you. It seems to me like your W is testing the waters, but there should be a mutual exchange of information, not a one-sided reveal.
I like the idea of sharing a little bit (e.g., saying that you're not seeing someone) and then offering to listen. Would she be open to an in-person meeting or phone call? I'm sorry I don't know the particulars of your sitch and if that's even possible.
Thank you all for your feedback. Feel free to share more. Otherwise I'll be drafting a reply and posting it for review. So far the highlights:
-validate the feelings she did share
-answer that I'm not in a committed relationship
-keep it to one paragraph
-offer to listen if there's anything she'd like to share
Again, thank you!
OK, before y'all hate me...here's why I broke the rules. First...I don't believe there is an OM. I've thought about it, I just think she's searching, or there was one and but it wasn't too serious. Just my read on the sitch. Second, it's clear this is bothering her, so I want to be sensitive to not causing her more distress. Third, I worked in the part about not self medicating...I didn't outright say I quit porn 2 months ago (and the change in attitude towards that topic I'm working on) but I thought it was important to work it in on the chance that was a hangup for her. And while I did express interest in the M, I don't think I was pursuing too hard. Well, it's sent...I'll live and learn.
***I’m so glad you’re feeling safer, heathier, and happier with yourself. Though I’ll never know exactly how much pain you’ve been through I understand we wouldn’t be in this situation if it hadn’t been act of self-preservation. This is never how we wanted things to go between us, but the healing and joy you’ve found is something that can never be sacrificed.
Considering the role I played in that, for me to talk about what I want just hasn’t seemed fair. If it helps in any way to know where I’m at then I am willing to share. I hate divorce too. I wouldn’t want to go back to the spot we just left either, but I am interested in the possibility of building a better marriage together. At the least, know that I am committed to doing better with the co-parenting role.
Either way, the need to do a better job across the board has been my priority lately. I haven’t seen anyone else. Just more self-medication, something I’m trying to avoid. When I look at things I’ve done in the past to feel better temporarily, I now see the damage it’s caused to myself, to you, and to the relationship. Not where I want to invest myself. I’m feeling better than I have in a long time because I’m starting to see that I can take care of myself and get through. Doesn’t mean I’m not broken up about the situation, only that I will meet whatever comes head on and be better for it. I know I’ll be in a great marriage in the future. Right now I can only see you as I picture what that looks like. But I completely respect and understand whatever your wishes are and have only compassion for whatever has to happen for you to be your best self.
WOW Zeus, that was a terrific email. It didn't sound too clingy or emotional to me, and you revealed a lot about what has been going on in your head and heart. I can't help but think your W will be moved by reading it even if she does not want to reunite with you. It should make her think.
Good for you! Now let it go, try not to dwell on her reply.
Hugs, Lisa
Thanks guys. It's been a crazy 48 hours. This DB stuff is insane. A month of routine, followed by what can feel like a shift in the universe.
She replied to my email. Said that she f'd up, was trying to find herself and just be free and have fun, but ended up having a drunken summer, then getting lonely, and seeing an old high school friend for a while. She said that broke off because he made her feel the children were a burden and she was to blame. Now she's really devastated, overwhelmed by life, and torn about divorcing a guy who she doesn't know if she can trust but 'who has changed into someone she likes'.
Wow. I was taken aback. Yes, it hurt there was an OM but my read was correct in that it didn't last long. Not sure how serious it was, but in the end given this situation is it ever really serious? You know what I mean. People grab anything when they fall.
Now I'm in a strange spot. Trying to figure out how to be supportive and validate, without pursuing or enabling. I replied to this last email and tried to validate what she was going through. I ended with the line: "It’s been a long time since we were safe with each other. Just know if you’d like to keep talking I’m still willing to listen." I wanted to make sure she understood that I wasn't slamming the door shut after she admitted to an OM.
It's tough, because she's in full victim mode. Still blames me for all the hurt, the M trouble, and the reality she's in. Still can't see past her own pain. And still hasn't looked in the mirror at her own issues.
Time away is crazy. Maybe I rewrote my history and made her a saint. But the reality is that she would need to make some of the same choices towards growth that I've been striving towards. I think she was the initiator so she is just months behind me. She's still trying to find herself, then figure out how to grow for herself. While I'm glad she's conflicted she's a long way from being ready to recommit to the M. Right?
Feel free to chime in. Right now I'm going to keep focusing on me, being a good father, and continuing to work on my problems and be a good coparent. Any traps I should avoid at this point that would delay the progress? I should've prepared for this part but never thought I'd be even this baby step far. Thoughts?
Well, 24 hours later I'm coming back to earth. Going back to me.
This last exchange really got me out of the present, and focused on her. Would she postpone the D? Would she find herself? Would she agree to a separation in which we went to counseling and spent time with each other? Would that lead to a reuniting? Would that new marriage work better? Would I be happier? Would my needs get met? Or would it breakdown? And if so, where? AHH!
Man, if I've done one thing right it's to NOT show any of that to her. I will stay poised, cool, calm, collected. I will not pursue. I will react casually, like I could take it or leave it.
And I will continue to work on me. Getting stronger. Meditating. Being a good dad. Maintaining my happiness on my own.
I think that's the biggest. It's so easy to want to say 'oh boy, maybe there's a chance this will work out, so I don't have to be so strong and independent!' But if I don't stay strong and independent it WON'T work out.
Glad I'm meeting with my DB coach tomorrow. Big Mac, when you asked what to do when your STBX says she's lonely I'm right there with you...Stay strong all!
Wow. CRAZY 48 hours. Being detached is much, much easier when there's minimal contact. Here's the recap of the last 3 exchanges, notice the rollercoaster:
Monday: She emails me stating she f'd up, had a drunken summer, saw someone briefly, broke it off, is lost, and doesn't want to divorce someone that has changed into someone she likes. I replied and just validated, and added "I'm still willing to listen" to indicate I wasn't closing the door.
Last night: She emails me again stating how trapped she is, spews a TON of venom about the situation, references the D, talks about how I can date if I wanted to and she's stuck, lonely, no companionship, etc. I replied again and validated, also adding it wasn't fair that I played such a role in it and she was the one in that spot, but that I took no pleasure over seeing someone I cared about suffer.
Tonight: After I was leaving from my kid visit she followed me outside, said 'I'm not doing so well. Thanks for listening', then proceeded to give me a hug that was so, so long...but yet so short.
Listen- I have been meditating for 15-20 minutes a day, really allowing myself to be ok regardless of what happens around me. But just for the moment I can tell you that hug was the most satisfying moment I can remember. Maybe you can relate. OK- now back to what DB Coach said.
She told me to wait until STBX verbalized confliction, then to talk about the middle road. Something like "the decisions we're making will be significant for our family. we want to be at our best when making those decisions. Neither of us is in a spot to recommit to a marriage or move back in together. Would it make sense to take a 'time out' and just put things on hold?" There would be more to it than that, but the idea would be to propose moving the D to a separation where we would co-parent and maybe get to know each other again.
Anyway, not sending that email tonight. Probably just a short follow up in regards to a couple of comments she made. She mentioned seeing a married couple she was friends with that she hasn't seen in a long time. She said it helped her a lot. In addition to 1-2 miscellaneous things I'm going to ask her in what way it helped to see if she'll share. OH- FYI, she's made a POINT of telling me where she's going and who she's seeing. I don't believe it's mind reading as it's so blatant (I saw my old friend Tyler today, don't worry, he's gay). So she is being considerate and sensitive to how I might feel in light of her short fling.
Thoughts or comments welcome, but again...slow...detached...her pace...but man, what a hug!
Wow!!!
Well, take that hug and let it propel you into continuing to validate, listen, validate, listen, be open, rinse, repeat.
It seems to be working... and we all know... if it works, keep doing it!!!!
Good hugs are some of the BEST things on the planet, huh?
Without a doubt the craziest night of my life. I'm at the house now. She woke me up at 4 crying and saying she didn't want to divorce me, she just wanted a happier M. She told me she had been thinking of ending it all. I hopped in my car and started driving over.
When I was almost there I heard another voice, apparently OM was at the house. But she told me OM had dumped her last night and was just too tipsy to drive home. When I arrived he wasn't ready to leave and was trying to give us counseling tips. I got him out of the house by going for a walk with him, he talked to me about being a better dad and husband, then said he'd stay out of the way. He told my W he wasn't going to befriends anymore and she got mad but let him leave.
She cried a lot and said lots of drunken sobbing things, she said she learned she can't be alone right now and needed me. Obviously I am now upstairs where we ended up ML and holding each other. She's getting the kids to school, trying not to confuse them too much but far too late.
Anyway, more later. First, I'm concerned with her safety. Second, I'm concerned with what she might do to self medicate. Third, I'm concerned about how to a kid being drawn into it, but if she's so lonely she will take anyone I hesitate to leave her. But maybe that's best, I don't want to be my own rebound. She was talking about giving the M another chance if we took it slow but she needed me tonight
See above post. Unreal. I feel like such an idiot. She has lied to me repeatedly. She told me the other day she broke it off with this guy. Now she says she was dumped last night. She said he was the only guy. Now apparently she has a date on Sunday with a neighbor while I was watching the kids. Oh, and her cousins husband that was helping with something around the house...apparently she got too close with him and he told his W he wanted to leave her for my W. my W said no and now there's a rift in the family.
WtF. Is this Jerry springer? Is this real? I wasn't a great H and admit that, but this is crazyness. Smoking pot and drinking, sleeping around, breaking up families. What do I do?
At this moment I know this: she is not committed to the M, or even to giving the M another shot. She is not committed to stop seeing other men. Very clear case of cake eating, self medicating, and being totally selfish. I think I'll need he'll setting some boundaries. How do I walk the line between pushing for D vs being used? Doesn't feel great
But I can handle it and am proud of how I am handling myself so far. Time for the next (complicated) step.
She just took a bottle of pills and texted my sister she was killing herself. She is at the hospital. They think she'll be ok but not much communication. Police called and asked me to come come, just got here. Need to watch kids until she's out of hospital/psych. No idea how long. I'm not very detached right now. Not doing so well. Please pray for me.
You both have our prayers. With any luck, this is her hitting bottom.
I'm so sorry. I hope it all gets better from here. Sending prayers.
She's going to live. I think that's what matters.
I found out that she's been drinking to oblivion and seeing several men out of desperation. When the last man dumped her she called me. That's when I came over. Only problem was he was there when I got there. He then basically said he was out and W and I needed to work it out. My W is so conflicted she's borderline scitzo. Told me she loved me always and didn't want D, but after ML changed her story. Asked me Togo to work.
Then, depressed because she hasn't been ready to choose (me or OM) she was angry that she lost him because of me. Asked me who told me to come over (she did). Then she gave up.
I found her phone and broke the rules. I've decided the kids aren't safe with her right now and they need me. I am moving back into my home NOW. She will be in urgent care for 5 days and will be evaluated for inpatient care. I am passing this info on to the doctors because I believe she is so out of control she needs protection from herself. I will stay in my home and raise my kids no matter how tough. At least that's how I feel now, but one day at a time. As for R, it certainly looked like she was in love with OM and hated me, but again, she's said a lot of things that don't add up. Maybe when she's been single and sober 30-60 days well see. That may or may not happen.
holy moly. I'm thinking of you all. Stay strong!
Wow .... My prayers are with you ... be strong, be the rock you need to be for your family right now.
This is unimaginable. It's a lot to give, but stay strong for everyone - they all need you right now.
You are in my thoughts.
Recap:
Found out W was on extremely destrutive spiral including multiple men, modest drug usage, and a lot of alcohol. She was texting with many different people and had a different persona with each one. The healthy people in her life had been losing contact as she was more and more with those with the most problems. Finally she reached out to me and she freaked because it hit too close to reality. She attempted suicide this morning and is in the hospital.
My world has flipped. I was out of house and working full time. At this moment I'm moving back in. My kids need me, and though I've never been a great dad I have been doing better. I have to figure this out.
The scary part is the hypocrisy. If I did this she would use it as proof that I should never again be trusted with the kids. However I have the feeling she and her family are going to expect me to let her resume where she left off. I don't think that's ok right now. I'm going to meet an L right away Monday if possible to find out my rights. Between the attempted suicide and the conversation histories she's had with many guys and their content I don't think any judge would say she's the fit mother right now. I am not sure this will go well, her mother has ready suggested that Cheri needs the children or shed just do this again. That whole premise is crazy.
But the thought if moving in, packig her stuff, taking over as full time dad, and going back to work is overwhelming. I have short term help from my dad. I can get some time off work. But still...so much to do. All I can say is I have my next 24 hours planned out and will do my best day by day.
For now I'm doing ok. But no one should ever be here and this is a severe test in my trust in the universe. I hope the last 10 weeks have prepared me for my task because I cannot fail my Children.
Thinking of you, Zues. Good luck.
Zues, the universe is motivating you to become a better person a lot faster than you were ready to, which is HARD but no reason to lose faith.
As a practical matter, I'm a full-time mom and I can tell you that having a plan (written is even better) for each day and each week makes everything a lot, lot easier. Asking for help where you need it is also crucial, and especially in the current circumstances people will be quick to give it so don't hesitate to ask. It's not weak or needy; people were meant to live in community. And great friendships can be born when you trust enough to ask for help.
Whatever kind of dad you've been in the past, that has to be in the past. From now you are a great dad. Think of yourself that way. It makes the job easier.
It's funny how people would think a suicide attempt could be a great healing event, isn't it? Yeah, not really. Don't give in to people like your mil. She's hurting and doesn't understand how her daughter could do this. Probably doesn't understand what came before either.
Praying for you, Zues.
Zeus -
I'm thinking of you in this difficult situation. My words of encouragement are that I am glad you found DB and DR to help work on yourself. You are in much better place mentally to handle this difficult situation. You will make it and do and do a great job with the kids. You are stronger than you think.
And Thanks again for all your input on my stitch. I haven't updated my stitch in the past week but you were pretty much spot on with your input. I appreciate your advice!
This is the scariest moment in my life.
This morning W came to from the medicine they had her on to bring her back. First thing she did was text a few people...I know because I saw the history on a duplicate device real time. She said to my sister she was heartbroken because she had lost OM and could never take me back. She also said she thought I was trying to take the kids away from her.
It gets scarier. My kids were supposed to go to a wedding with W. W told MIl to pick the up and take them. I didn't trust the situation. Didn't know if MIl was under instructions to not bring the kids home. Day 1 as sole party realonsible for kids during a crisis, I wasn't letting them leave my side. I said so and said I'd bring them. They said I wasn't invited. Things escalated to the point my W made veiled threats about how she had things she could do to get the kids. Very scary talk. Finally we deescalated and I took kids with MIL and we had a great time.
Now I talk to W and she is calm. Said she is fine now and just wants to be home with the kids. Says she is getting the help she has needed for a long time with some different meds and councling. Said she knows she needs to do what I did and start taking care of herself and growing stronger. And she says she has reconnected with some healthier friends that will take turns watching the kids so she can have some adult time. She says we're just friends, that's all.
I don't know what to believe. She was so crazy yesterday and over the past few months I don't believe she's all right. I don't believe she is ready to take care of herself and don't trust her. She's saying some of the right things but it seems I have two options: 1) trust her and see her make destructive decisions and expose the kids to harm, or 2) tell her I don't trust her and am going to take at least temporary control of the kids which could start a war.
I'm so confused and scared of doing the wrong thing. I can't think clearly because I want to believe she will be ok. And after the last week of her telling me she missed the M and me, even though I know she was using me for comfort it rocked my boat and I am no longer detached and find myself wishing she would snap out of the fog and start thinking about rebuilding.
I will meet with my L, DB coach, and IC. That's not until Monday at least. Sorry to be an attention sponge, but can anyone from outside of this mess see clearly what the truth is? 2x4? I'm trying so hard.
You aren't an attention sponge at all. This is terrifying. I defer to more experienced people, but you remain in my prayers.
Hi Zues,
For what its worth, I don't even think this is a question. You have to think of the safety and the well being of your children first. If you weren't separated and she did this, you would still limit her exposure to the kids, right? You can do your best to reassure her and make sure she has generous supervised visitation with them, but her feelings right now are not going to be rational no matter what.
I'm not sure what your relationship is with your In-Laws - but I would certainly reach out to them and make surethey understand that you view this as temporary situation until you are confident that your wife has regained her mental health. That may help a little.
Good Luck. You are in a difficult situation, but your kids need you to be a strong father and advocate right now.
I am not a professional and I really feel like that's whose opinions you need the most right now but I will weigh in briefly.
I think that now is NOT the time for your wife to be alone let alone responsible for the children. There should be NO talk of OM or R or M or anything but getting her to a therapist consistently, becomes clean and sober and the health and care of the children. Those are the ONLY priorities. Her wanting the OM, her believing you're trying to take the children... none of that is an issue right now. I'd be careful to make your moves very obvious that you're NOT trying to disappear with the children because an accusation in that department could make your terrible situation worse.
Was there a social worker at the hospital? There should have been an inquiry about the children and whose care they are in. They are too young to be facing this.
Your wife wants to be home with the kids but I wouldn't want my kids around her until she is clean, sober and mentally stable. That is just not the case right now.
Attending a wedding after your wife's suicide attempt? I'm so confused by that.
Following W's attempted suicide Friday she is fully recovered physically. She is expecting to return home Tuesday at which point she expected me to move out again or to stick around in the family room for a week or two if I thought it necessary to make sure things were ok.
I meditated on it long and hard and was willing to cooperate to a point. For all her issues she has always been a good mom and protectedthem from harm. Any impact her lifestyle makes doesnt seem as large as the consequences of starting a nuclear custody issue, having them out of her life and blaming me to the kids, etc. so i want to cooperrate, but also to keep an eye on the situation. Last thing i want is for kids to be hurt or ss to decide NEiTHER parent is safe!!! HOWEVER, She found out from social services yesterday that they may not be so quick to reinstate that situation. That may be my out. I am going to tell them the following:
-she has been drinking heavily
-she has been involved with several men, possibly at the house (one reported incident)
-she isn't speaking in terms of kids needing her, but of her needing them, particularly the youngest because "she clings to me all day, always loves me, and needs me the most"
-she isn't seeing past her own needs and pain. No accountability, no apologies, minimizing what occurred as a one time mistake, and saying treatment follow up is being blown out of proportion
My hope is that SS sees me fit as a father but allows her to come home, and hopefully they ask me to be here for 4-8 weeks until she completes some court ordered therapy. She doesn't want it but it may do her good.
Finally, between her and I the question is: did she ask for a D and lose control in the pain of separation? Or has she been out of control longer and the D was the first bad choice? No clue, right now I am focused on being a parent first, and a supportive friend to her next. Can't see last the next 24-48 hours right now...
Wife is back home. I am back out.
My DB coach originally said NOT to leave her alone with kids immediately and to stay there temporarily. My W threw a fit and said she can't have me in house due to her fear of me. Fortunately I had a meeting with my DB coach set up for today so I asked W if she'd like to join on be call, the idea being if my DB coach was cool with me leaving then I'd leave. She joined me on the call, and we had a good discussion. W had some valid reasons to be uncomfortable with me there so coach said we could work out other arrangements. Coach seemed tough on me but it was good, I hope my W remembers how validated she felt and how fair coach was. May plant a small seed.
In the meantime W is fully recommitted to D. Says she didn't mean to mislead me, but that we can't work in a marriage. She likes that I am doing better with the kids and wants me to find ways to take them for a weekend so she can have some adult time. Personally she still seems a bit contradictory. She had a beer in her hand, which immediately after hospital release when you know social services might check in AND you just got off a three month bender...I get she's celebrating the release but seemed odd. Then she talked about finding herself vs having companionship, but made a point to say I could date and talked about how she missed days on the pill and needed to get back on her birth control.
Whatever. Not my journey. It hurt really bad to have her mislead me, then to go through that scare, then to have 5 days with the children with my living situation in the air and with tension so intense one bad move would've started a custody war, only to do an awesome job across the board but be rejected again. Not being wanted in my family is horrible.
Back to working on me. This was an emotional backslide (or I wasn't as detached as I thought). Gotta focus on me again and take care of myself. It feels bad but I'm doing my best and I'm proud of the choices I'm making.
Wait a minute. A beer? No, that's not ok and I'd not leave my kids alone with her if she's going to drink AT ALL.
I hope you're documenting all of this. For no other reason than because if you're ever asked about her past behavior, she is obviously in NO position to speak about it so you need to be able to be detailed about it.
Her "celebrating" over being released from the hospital from a suicide attempt by having a beer? That just doesn't sit well with me AT ALL.
And about you being detached... how could you possibly be fully detached after all you've been through recently? Give yourself some credit. Your wife attempts suicide and where are you? RIGHT EFFING THERE!!! That says a lot about you. To YOU. To your KIDS. If she doesn't care, that's one thing but let it remind you that you know your priorities. You take care of yours. You protect what you can and you step up when you're needed. Keep it up.
I'm behind you.
Wife is back home. I am back out.
My DB coach originally said NOT to leave her alone with kids immediately and to stay there temporarily. My W threw a fit and said she can't have me in house due to her fear of me. Fortunately I had a meeting with my DB coach set up for today so I asked W if she'd like to join on be call, the idea being if my DB coach was cool with me leaving then I'd leave. She joined me on the call, and we had a good discussion. W had some valid reasons to be uncomfortable with me there so coach said we could work out other arrangements. Coach seemed tough on me but it was good, I hope my W remembers how validated she felt and how fair coach was. May plant a small seed.
Given the givens, I think you did the best you could.
In the meantime W is fully recommitted to D. Says she didn't mean to mislead me, but that we can't work in a marriage. She likes that I am doing better with the kids and wants me to find ways to take them for a weekend so she can have some adult time. Personally she still seems a bit contradictory.
I'd rephrase that. She's VERY contradictory and is a perfect example of why we say "Believe nothing they say and only half of what they do." That STILL applies. Don't freak out or think anything is final, based on these comments. And don't push for any answers from her. She seems to be in the middle of a nervous breakdown.
None of which absolves you of your work, nor does it make you a great h or dad. I'm actually impressed with how realistic you are with your shortcomings as a dad but it's also a handicap. You are forewarned that your role as a father MUST be improved upon and increased, greatly. When a man admits, as you did awhile back, that seeing your kids a few times a week would be better than in the past, that says a lot...and in your wife's defense, I can see why she'd ask if your changes are real. ((BTW, I absolutely believe she was curious about your changes for good reasons, but that doesn't mean she's not confused. She is, obviously. But then, so are you.))
Consistent changes + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
She had a beer in her hand, which immediately after hospital release when you know social services might check in AND you just got off a three month bender...I get she's celebrating the release but seemed odd.
It IS odd, but you have to remember not to be the one to police her actions. She must have a caseworker or social worker or SOMEONE following her treatment and that's the person for you to contact. Don't make her paranoid around you. Especially now. Help her to trust you. Any talk of "Cake eating" is so inappropriate in this situation that it makes me shake my head and wonder if the person remarking that way has read this whole thread.
Your whole family is in crisis. NO ONE is having fun at your expense or "using" you.
I know of 2 suicides on these boards. I take this VERY seriously. Your wife is deeply damaged, and in terrible pain. Your vows said "in sickness and in health" and even if all you can offer her now is your health insurance and emotional support, "as a friend" - DO IT so she feels safer and has more hope.
MY guess is that She thinks her future is very bleak b/c she can't trust you to be her man, and now she thinks "no one else will want me", and as a sahm, she worries she won't be able to make it on her own financially either. Her fears make sense.
Then she talked about finding herself vs having companionship, but made a point to say I could date and talked about how she missed days on the pill and needed to get back on her birth control.
Whatever. Not my journey. It hurt really bad to have her mislead me, then to go through that scare, then to have 5 days with the children with my living situation in the air and with tension so intense one bad move would've started a custody war, only to do an awesome job across the board but be rejected again. Not being wanted in my family is horrible.
I'm not clear about the "awesome job across the board", and I don't mean to sound petty with that remark. I'm just not sure what you mean. It sounded to me as if you showed up in an emergency that anyone would do except a real ogre. But the thing is, Your good deeds were noticed by your kids, (if no one else.) And your showing up was appreciated and witnessed by them. You can't expect a big welcome home and reward from her- for a week or two of showing up, especially after years of the past you two had.
Your good deeds won't pay off that way...but your kids know you were there and they are probably feeling safer and more loved around you. That needs to matter more to you. I'd say it's THE most important thing; not what your emotional wife is saying today.
Back to working on me. This was an emotional backslide (or I wasn't as detached as I thought). Gotta focus on me again and take care of myself. It feels bad but I'm doing my best and I'm proud of the choices I'm making.
Take care of your kids, and yourself and keep a compassionate eye out for your wife. Make sure she knows the health insurance covers...whatever it covers and that you will make sure she gets the help she needs if there are some gaps in coverage.
I think You can/should say this in a way that doesn't make it sound as if she's the only one with problems. And don't forget only a short while ago you talked a lot about your fantasy world, not knowing reality, being delusional, etc...
she has hers, you have yours and both of you can/need to do better.
So, back to YOU. What are the changes you are most concerned with making this month? And how are you and the kids? Can you do an activity WITH them that they like or choose? (I say that b/c it sounded as if you pretty much made the choices about all that before hand. And maybe letting them choose would be a good way for you to get to know them and their talents/likes/dislikes and of course for them to feel more comfortable with you.
Here is a true story that might shed light on PART of your situation...
2007--
A beautiful & fun neighbor of ours, in a pretty darn happy marriage and with 4 kids, told me she'd had a "come to Jesus!" talk with her husband a year earlier. Because of that talk, he began working fewer hours and spending more time at home. He took a pay cut for that.
He mentioned on Halloween that he was coaching his daughter's soccer team, watching his son practice basketball, and that he felt that he was "finally getting to know his own kids"...I have to tell you in that moment I was so jealous of what I was hearing. I'd have given anything to have MY husband saying something like that.
Then quite unexpectedly, and after playing cards at our house with both families, his wife & my dear friend, said she had a "splitting headache" and died of an aneurysm. Bam! 42, stunning looking tall blonde with a kind heart and easy laugh, a great mother and a loving wife...just yanked out of a family, which she was the center of...for 2 years those kids looked like they'd just been punched in the stomach.
I've often wondered if my friend somehow sensed she wasn't long for this earth, so she got her husband to KNOW their kids before she left us.
I mean, the calendar on the wall was color coordinated to match each child's activities so you literally could come in and take over on a day's notice. SO organized, who had piano lessons, who had trouble with math, a dentist appointment and practice, etc. Each child was a specific color, etc.
She was a great mom, and she made her h a good father while she was alive. Then she died, and he became a great father.
Like him, you can take a sad tragic ordeal, and make it into a blessing.
You need decide NOTHING about your marital status now. In fact, that would be about the last thing on my mind if I were you.
In some states her mental status cold prevent you from being able to divorce her and the amount of income a court would impute to her would be much less in her present condition.
As a fellow DBer and as a L, I think there are arguments to be made for you to put all that aside for now. Yes, I know SHE may not, but you can still not help speed it up, for HER sake if nothing else. Help her to heal. She'll need your insurance for one thing...anyhow, again it's not something to be decided today.
You have some fundamentals to work on. I think as bad off as your wife sounds, it's possible you've had your head in the sand quite a lot never to have noticed how desperate she was getting. I also have a hard time believing this was the first time she has had too much to drink. Which makes me wonder where you were...mentally/emotionally I mean. Not to be crass, but is that when you were on your own with the computer?
Anyhow, You talked so much about all your unmet needs...I hope you can better see now how empty her tanks have been and how many of her needs were unmet. She could never live up to the porn fantasies, which is depressing (and a huge turn off btw) and perhaps that is why she threw herself into motherhood. Kids tend to love us with so little effort on our parts.
So work on you, be fully PRESENT for your kids, and help take care of your wife.
At this point staying married would not be THE priority;
helping your children and wife to stay healthy and alive, while you become the man you were meant to become, would be.
Keep posting and keep on keeping on.
Sending you virtual hugs
(((( ))))
Zues,
I am surprised DCF / SS has not been involved. I went through exactly what you are in April. My wife also tried suicide and ended up in the hospital. The hospital reported it to DCF / SS. They investigated it and determined the children should stay with me. I was supposed to determine if wife is under any type of drug or alcohol each time kids are with her. If she is I am not to leave them with her or remove them if necessary. A court order was just entered that spells that out. It gives me final say concerning the kids.
Did your wife leave a note? Those who do are crying out for help. Those who don't are more dangerous as they really do want to kill them selves. They are more likely to try again. The next year is the worst for another attempt. How will you feel if she does or does something worse?
You need to talk to a lawyer. If DCF / SS has not been involved or done an investigation you may want to involve them. A lawyer will tell you what is best course of action. You need to think about your kids now and their safety. You cannot worry about hurting your wife's feelings right now or even DBing. That can be worked on later.
Take it from one who has just gone through what you are going through. I was surprised my wife was released after a week. I feel the mental health system in our country is bad right now.
Good luck and feel free to contact me in MLC section if you have any questions or need support.
OK, I'm out of the house again but keeping a CLOSE eye on things. I will be there again tonight, and will very attentive to any signs of concern.
As for STBX, I'm not saying I've let go of the rope...but it's clear she has some serious issues to sort through and I don't need to be along for the ride. I can tell you first hand that I've bottomed out in life before, and afterwards I tend to be a bit humble, a bit soft spoken, and maybe a bit cautious about taking assertive action because I'm not as confident and am afraid of causing further harm. My STBX is the opposite. She is acting like a celebrity that goes to rehab and is feeding off the public adulation of her speeches. Today she put a FB post up with pictures of sand art, speeches about how this happened and today is the new first day of her life, and how she has found hope, and everything happens for a reason. Sounds fair, and everyone is liking the post, but those that know her close see that she is just a master of control and is just trying to reestablish she is in control of herself, is a great mom, and she is just such an awesome person. I'm not saying there's not some truth to this, but what I am saying is she's a PROFESSIONAL at managing other people's perceptions and opinions of her, and she in fact can place more stock in getting public approval than in actually being ok. That's not just my opinion, it's that of my DB coach and IC, so not trying to mind read.
Reason I bring this up is because I've been playing along. I've been the 'abusive husband' and have taken all the blame. Tired of that. Not turning focus away from me for good, just saying that I'm recognizing she isn't the perfect angel and I'm not the devil. She has some serious things to deal with and right now I just need to take care of myself and the kids.
SO- what everyone's been waiting for...back to me. What am I working on? Well, right now it's been survival. I've been pretty tested this week. But now I'm going to be just slowing down, not trying to control anything, and going with the flow. I don't want to wallow, nor do I need to decide what my life needs to look like today. I am spending good time with my children, taking care of myself by meditating, reading, talking with my friends and family, and finding joy in simple things like a game of chess. Seems trivial, but there is some growth in the fact that I am not running from my emotions or trying to control external circumstances. In fact, meeting emotions head on without blaming, controlling, or running...well, never been able to do this before. We'll see where I am in a week. For now I'm just going to breath deep and accept that although I don't believe in divorce, if she is insistent on her current course then it is probably for the best. I am now 2.5 months porn free, I am a better dad, and I am less cocky and realize that my $hit stinks. So next R I'm (NO HURRY!!!) I will be appreciative for every day that my partner gives me, and make a true priority to understand her needs. Oh, that's another thing...even though I'm not seeing a road to reconciliation at this moment I am still trying to meet my STBX's needs by working well with her on family arrangements and making sure she has the right balance of support/distance from me to keep things civil.
Next week I'll do more towards GAL. Just happy to be through this week
Thank you all for the support. Really...25, SS, Sam, everyone! Thank you.
SS, I'm writing this in my post instead of yours, but nothing wrong with being dressed up with nowhere to go. A lot of vets say GAL is so critical and I can see why. For me, though, I was ways doing things during my M and wasn't good at slowing down, being in the moment, or being alone. I felt like I was missing out. Now I don't feel that way.
Maybe I'm an introvert by nature. Not sure. But I see me STBX going out, meeting other guys, and I'm not jealous. I just think its sad she has to offer her body for someone to tell her what she needs to hear to feel better. For me, the idea of making love with a woman that was anything other than a committed partner would just make me aware how much was missing, and how lonely I must be to settle for anything less.
So I'm NOT GAL, at least not in the meeting people/keeping busy sense. I still play pool as that is one of my gifts. But tonight I just talked with a friend for a bit, came home, meditated for a bit, and will now read a few chapters before turning in early. I'm not trying to impress my STBX with how awesome I am. I am who I am. She may never see he value or be in a spot to forgive my mistakes. That's her journey. I'm doing this for me. And I don't feel the need to be doing something special for me to have value. I have value here, by myself. And being OK with being here and now with no one else's approval and minimal outside stimulation is my biggest 180. Goodnight all!
Such a lot of pain. I'm finally starting to see the depths of my Ws pain. I can see it through my own pain.
See, I look back at my posts. I didn't believe anyone was more committed than me. But you can only hurt so long and some damage cannot be repaired. What my STBX is doing now in a fog isn't part of what brought down our R. Much of that was me. But the things she has done are beyond hurtful.
-Criticizing me to her friends and family, sharing intimate details I wish she'd respect are private and then presenting only the negatives. For any women that do this ill tell you It feels the same as if I recorded a love making session then watched it with some friends and laughed at how out of shape she or frigid she was.
-she knows sex was my LL and she was distant for years. Now she dumps me and is playing the field. I may know she is just trying to feel better but it hurts to see her seemingly care more about her flings the. Her H.
-her never ending ocean of resentment. It's as abusive as anything she can accuse me of.
-finally, walking away from the marriage altogether. We're all here for a reason. Enough said. What a betrayal.
So why so focused on me? Because at this moment I can't see a way past it. It's not that I wouldn't want to trust/love/forgive, but she's getting very close to finding her way on the 'dead to me' list and becoming just an extra in my life movie.
So if I feel this way after a few months of this post separation behavior when I can expect it, no wonder she is so hurt by my years of damage during a marriage. It helps me have compassion when all I want to do is protect myself.
I would have given up but Bond said one using anger to disconnect isn't detachment not is it healthy. It looks like I have to ignore my heart which is dying for me to protect myself in pain.
But though I can see the amount of pain I caused her, I have a hard time focusing on what I've done. It's like I blocked it out and said 'that wasn't really me' only it was. Some of the things ive done i would never do again. Others i still struggle with. How do I trust myself to be in an R ever again? Why don't they teach this in school?!? I'm all over the map but bleeding a little in my heart. No specific question, but anyone have any inspiration?
Ok. Up virtually all night in pain and even despair. Can't see a way forward. All roads look like oceans of pain and heartbreak, and things I've always wanted to believe in like love and commitment all seem like broken illusions.
Now my STBX calls. Asks for a phone number but she basically admitted she wanted to let me know that she stopped drinking. She said she realized that she had been running from being alone and using drinking/men to cover that up. She said she is getting professional help with her psychiatrist and making better choices. Starting a couple of new hobbies. Etc. she said I should know as it pertains to me knowing the children would be safe.
I tried to validate as best I could. Related to her where I could, told her I was glad that the clouds were starting to break through. Agreed that it wasn't easy for her but was supportive that she was on a road that would lead her into a better spot.
First contact by her since the incident. I am staying super dark but will respond warm when she is warm to me. This incident gave me a little hope. Not anything short term as I know her mind is made up in her head and she can't see getting past the hurts of the past. But if she has the character to course correct maybe she can do so again in the future. That said, I'm starting to see how long the road would be even if that's not possible. For the first time I can really get how this could take years. So I'd better take care of myself!
Ok. Just figuring this out now. Sorry, this link is to a blog, not anything very official. But if you had a bad R and can't get over the BD check it out.
http://thecurrentconscience.com/blog/2012/08/08/you-dont-miss-him/I think this is true for me. My R was never great. Never. We weren't good friends and had nothing in common. She got pregnant right away and we got married and tried to make it work. She is a good person with flaws, as am I. We didn't have any foundation with which to battle life together and made all the standard mistakes. Our love and positive intention was there but we diet execute and roughly half (or all if you ask my STBX) weren't very fulfilling.
Now, I still believe god gave us to each other and where we misfire is a sign of where we need to grow. I believe in marriage and commitment. But lets be real. Being together with my W again wouldn't be rainbows and roses. Of course I'd give my all or I wouldn't be here. Just trying to remember that she isn't the missing piece to my heart (or again, I wouldn't be here).
I needed that reality check as it helps reduce the pain and today was tough. Stupid guy loses girl and gets her back and is happy movies...
Ok. Up virtually all night in pain and even despair. Can't see a way forward. All roads look like oceans of pain and heartbreak, and things I've always wanted to believe in like love and commitment all seem like broken illusions.
Now my STBX calls. Asks for a phone number but she basically admitted she wanted to let me know that she
stopped drinking. She said she realized that she had been running from being alone and using drinking/men to cover that up. She said she is getting professional help with her psychiatrist and making better choices. Starting a couple of new hobbies. Etc. she said I should know as it pertains to me knowing the children would be safe.
This is a HUGE relief! I believe your wife has been ill and having a major depressive episode so I'm very glad she's getting help. Thank God. You are allowed to be happy about this!
I tried to validate as best I could. Related to her where I could, told her I was glad that the clouds were starting to break through. Agreed that it wasn't easy for her but was supportive that she was on a road that would lead her into a better spot.
I would think you're happy about this, right? I mean, validating these choices has to be a lot easier than validating the other times, right? This getting help is mandatory for her and for your family's wellbeing.
First contact by her since the incident. I am staying super dark but will respond warm when she is warm to me. This incident gave me a little hope.
Yes I can see why. Not anything short term as
I know her mind is made up in her head
You "know" no such thing ^^and neither does she. Stop the mind reading..yikes, after all these weeks...you have to stop it or you will go nuts.
and she can't see getting past the hurts of the past.
anything there seem familiar to you? You both have forgiveness work to do. Worry about her sandbox LATER and stay in your sandbox to do your work.
Make sense? I don't know all the steps you two have to take to get to a pont where you are co parenting, let alone reconciling But both of you working on yourselves is KEY to any progress. So don't keep looking at her box...just look at yours. IT's the only one you control and besides, by you setting an example of change, you'll give her hope to do the same.
But if she has the character to course correct maybe she can do so again in the future. That said, I'm starting to see how long the road would be even if that's not possible. For the first time I can really get how this could take years. So I'd better take care of myself!
Indeed you must take care of yourself and those children of yours, &
keep on keeping on.
Thank you 25. I'be been a bit unstable lately and I appreciate you helping me get back on track. My sandbox indeed.
I've just been down. Day after day. When I'm doing stuff I am ok but in general I just am feeling a bit bummed. I think the reason I am convinced the R is doomed is partly believing what I hear and see which is easy to do, and partly because limbo isn't easy and I just want to stop hurting. But that's not what's most important and I have to remember that.
GAL is hard. I like my life and who I am for the most part and don't intend to do a to manufacture a new me just to catch my STBX's attention. I am still playing and competing at pool and enjoy that, my W never had a problem with it (other than time away from children) and I won't be quitting. I am reconnecting with friends a bit. One thing I'm going to do is go to a men's support group for 'choosing healthy sexual boundaries'. I may attend one or a number of these meetings, but I'm sure ill learn a lot and maybe make a friend or two. This was a bit challenge in the R and something I'm wrestling with so I think it is a good step. Of course I'm trying to be the best dad I can and am doing better than anything I've done in the past.
Right now the hardest part is not self medicating. It would feel so good to just go out with another woman and feel some love, go on a porn binge, etc. But I know I'd only feel worse and wouldn't like to look in the mirror afterwords. So I'm stuck dealing with my fears, shame, loniliness, and sadness the hard way. Taking my share of the blame and trying to comfort my inner self and pray for peace and strength. I am not breaking yet but look forward to the day that I find myself feeling good more often. Please feel free to reply again, I appreciate all of your comments and keeping an eye on my sitch.
Thank you 25. I'be been a bit unstable lately and I appreciate you helping me get back on track. My sandbox indeed.
I've just been down. Day after day. When I'm doing stuff I am ok but in general I just am feeling a bit bummed. I think the reason I am convinced the R is doomed is partly believing what I hear and see which is easy to do, and partly because limbo isn't easy and I just want to stop hurting. But that's not what's most important and I have to remember that.
GAL is hard.
saying, "GAL is hard" may seem true, but NOT GAL is worse and ultimately harder.
I hope you see that.
What you say above proves it. You feel better when you are "doing stuff" (read "GAL") and ou are believing too much of what you hear and see partly b/c of Not GAL as well.
I like my life and who I am for the most part and don't intend to do a to manufacture a new me just to catch my STBX's attention.
IF you believe that GAL = "manufacturing a new" you, AND that it's "just to catch" her attention, then you misunderstand the concept and purpose of GAL. That's unfortunate.
Among the many purposes of GAL - is enriching your life, exploring things you always wanted to but held back from, learning something of interest or value that helps you FEEL SOME JOY in your life and NOT obsess about your situation...it's partly a self discovery tool, and is huge for your PMA.
You read the DB or Div Remedy books? Read the parts on GAL again. IT's NOT about getting her attention and it's NOT about manufacturing a new you.
The 180s you do ought to help with undermining the negatives she has of you, though it's just a piece of that. Also your wife is going thru a lot and may be psychologically ill at this time. In my layman's opinion, she seems unwell.
Just b/c it's emotional illness, doesn't make it less real OR less sympathetic.
But GAL is crucial to detachment. Without GAL, you cannot Detach.
I am still playing and competing at pool and enjoy that, my W never had a problem with it (other than time away from children) and I won't be quitting. I am reconnecting with friends a bit. One thing I'm going to do is go to a men's support group for 'choosing healthy sexual boundaries'.
That^^ mens group is a GAL activity that benefits you and MAY get your mind off the situation but then again, maybe this particular GAL activity is just for improvement on an issue that played inside the M.
I'll list a few thing I did for GAL below.
I may attend one or a number of these meetings, but I'm sure ill learn a lot and maybe make a friend or two. This was a bit challenge in the R and something I'm wrestling with so I think it is a good step.
Is making a new friend what you're referring to? Then this is a good thing to do and sounds healthy for you to do, regardless of your w's choices. Make sense?
Of course I'm trying to be the best dad I can and am doing better than anything I've done in the past.
Right now the hardest part is not self medicating. It would feel so good to just go out with another woman and feel some love, go on a porn binge, etc. But I know I'd only feel worse and wouldn't like to look in the mirror afterwords.
It's great that you can think this out. If you were to "Self medicate", thinking out how you'd feel after is key to helping you see why NOT to do it.
It's a piece of the underlying reason you are here.
So If you find a GAL activity that gives you some JOY, it will help you avoid the pitfalls of your typical self medicating...like playing an instrument or joining a team or taking a class or skydiving or whatever, is a lot healthier for you than the other choices you have been making. THAT is a reason for GAL in a new and different way (Like I said, see the list I give you of what I did to just feel alright in the interior of Alaska.)
A big part of GAL is also just overcoming inertia. In a way that's really symptomatic of so much in our lives you know? We make a poor choice repeatedly. We know it's Not a good choice, but we have nothing to replace the negative behavior with yet...no substitute for the negative behavior ----which is where GAL COMES IN...
We feel 'stuck" , and yet it's often just a matter of Doing it....AND learning NEW ways of dealing with our pain. I would think that appeals to you.
So I'm stuck dealing with my fears, shame, loniliness, and sadness the hard way.
Zeus, you are CHOOSING to make this harder! (Tell me, btw, what the 'easy way' that you think exist - b/c I sure don't know anyway to get thru this that isn't hard as he11.
You are resisting the GAL suggestion for some reason, almost as if your situation is uniquely difficult.Yet it's not, b/c most of us were in the "Stuck mode" too. WE got ourselves out of it. And GAL is key.
I think the unique part of your situation is that your wife is in major upheaval and suffering some sort of quasi breakdown (or full on breakdown; I'm not sure yet.) But we've seen that here too.
You are Not alone. Also, I found myself feeling helpless and hopeless at times. At those times you may have to do what I did, which was to Turn this over to the Big Guy...let him carry your burden for a bit.
I swear, by me thinking the words "God, (or "universe" or "higher power" etc) I turn this pain and anger over to you" or "I turn this marriage over to you",
and saying the words, and hearing myself say them, HELPED those words sink in!
And I felt calmer and more at peace. That helped a lot, especially when h called that's for sure. And it kept me from obsessing at bed time so I could sleep better.
Just a suggestion if you're a believer.
Taking my share of the blame and trying to comfort my inner self and pray for peace and strength. I am not breaking yet but look forward to the day that I find myself feeling good more often. Please feel free to reply again, I appreciate all of your comments and keeping an eye on my sitch.
Think about how you were raised and any of the shortcomings in your upbringing...can you see any thing that you have improved upon in raising a family now? Can you celebrate the improvements you've made?
Knowing that your family of origin's negative ways are being improved, is a good good thing. Kudos to you for the changes you are making.
And please see that the need to find new behaviors so you don't self medicate in an unhealthy way, is something you need to do. That doesn't mean you are manufacturing a new you, so much as becoming who you were meant to become.
If you read your earlier posts; the ones in which you own the behaviors you're not proud of, with a clear eyed view of the bullying and the demanding way you carried yourself, (sorry, but thats how it read to me; although from a remorseful position I believe Was sincere) ....
then I think you can see that some improvements are needed to have a healthy marriage with your wife or with any woman...(none of us want to do what we don't want to do, in bed).
Don't underestimate that, please. It imperils you and your situation to blow that off.
All the women I know who have done things they didn't really enjoy, repeatedly, all ended up resenting their partners for pushing for it b/c it did not feel loving...AND OR they pretended that it's just that 'they didn't like sex" - when in reality it's the sex they've been having with their partner, that they did not enjoy.
Hang in there Zeus. You have the insights and bravery to change yourself in a meaningful profound way -- and that is a good thing to have, no matter what your w chooses to do or how much help she gets. I wish her luck in that too.
Zeus,
For GAL suggestions, let me mention some of what I did when we lived in the interior of Alaska, even in the winter. I had 3 kids, including a newborn baby born our 2nd month there. (So you know I don't want to hear about how you are or 'too busy' to GAL).
Inertia is the greatest enemy to GAL. Hear yourself resisting GAL and stop the resistance. Overcome the inertia, which is resistance, & you'll be well on your way to a happier more fulfilling life. IMO, the more you overcome inertia, the better your R's will be with ALL people, including your w.
I volunteered at a battered women's shelter.
I coached a girl's softball team, two summers (my older D was on it).
I was on the board of directors for Wrestling, (b/c our son wrestled).
I auditioned for community theater and met some fun creative people. I got cast, too.
I did stand up comedy (and yes, I still do it). I did a whole set once on a MLCs at the Improv. It went very well.
I learned to cross country ski, became a better shooter.
I Learned to hunt big game, to deep sea fish, & I got better at downhill skiing.
I learned to use a snowmobile ("snow machine" to Alaskans)
I loved riding it... it got me outside at a time when most of us wanted to hibernate.
Learned to fly a plane, and I got a pilot's license.
Went skydiving! And I Loved it so much I did it again. And I plan on doing it again, soon!
(Last month a fellow DBer went skydiving and I went to watch and support her. It's powerfully symbolic of us taking a leap of faith, you know?)
Edited a book. (The book ended up on the Best Seller's List. Who knew?)
I Worked out 3-4 times a week, and I really did get in excellent shape. Looking good made a world of difference to me. Found a work out partner and began socializing after the work outs.
(Plus I'd just had our last child so I needed to lose the baby weight. It was NOT easy to do, let alone in the dark, deathly cold of their long LONG winters).
In the winter, I used a tanning booth, which helped me a lot with depression. I felt more energized, and it probably helped my appearance, which also helps us FEEL better.
Saw a therapist and for some months, went on ADs. Very helpful, especially in the winter.
Took a pottery class (very odd for me to do, but I liked it a lot). It also got me out of the house doing something moderately creative and sometimes that was all I could do. It helped.
Joined the Officer's Wives club after 15 years of active duty.
(Man I sure wish I had joined sooner! Met two women there, who remain as life long friends to this day.)
Joined a writer's group
Took a class in Conversational French
Took a class in Italian cooking
There is more, but I just wanted to suggest to you a few things you can do that don't cost much. Other than pilot training, most of these ^^ activities were FREE, or really inexpensive.
Keep going!
Last but not least,
I hope you'll forgive me if I posted this to you earlier b/c I think it was to someone else...but if I'm wrong I apologize for being repetitive.
But it's an important point of view too few of us get to see.
She's a WAW who heard an LBH here on the boards, asking how his wife could still be interested in OM, when he her h, had changed a lot!
Here is HER letter to the guy asking for advice...
FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND WHO HAS CHANGED, AND WONDERS WHY HIS WAW HAS NOT COME HOME YET, & HOW SHE CAN BE AT ALL INTERESTED IN OM….
"When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the one who was treated as less than.
One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H. Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes.
So, I can see where your W is coming from. When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.
Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.
And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.
Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope.
You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.
And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OR when some OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".
Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to win.
Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her and really have recommitted to her and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell."
_________________________
Zeus, could your wife have written any or all of this^^ letter? Dig deep, be brave.
(Long post, that kind of week) 25, thank you for following this thread. It's nice to get feedback but with you I feel like you're really rooting me on.
You're right about how I handled myself in the M. I've been peeling back that onion. My M was so bad in so many ways. Neither my W nor I had a high self worth and we both counted on the other to make us happy. It didn't work. For her, she has issues being herself. She is a pleaser and was all about being a good mom, getting my approval, or the approval of the world. To me it felt like she had no personality. It seemed like she was a shell. We didn't have great conversation, our 'dates' were dinner and a movie and boring sex. We loved each other and there was passion at times, but not much intimacy.
I grew very restless. I felt like I was in a shell of a marriage. I started doing more and more on my own to entertain myself. Winning pool tournaments, killing it at work. In turn she devoted herself to the kids and became very controlling with them, getting her needs met by their dependence, and shutting me out from the family as she needed to be the one that was needed for everything (the 'I don't deserve love so ill settle for being needed and get to be the noble martyr). I began to feel very neglected and resented that she didn't make me as much of a priority as she made the kids. Remember, 3 kids and a miscarriage in 10 years meant she was pregnant/nursing much o the time. We never dated as she was pregnant right away so we never for to take trips or have fun together. And with our disconnect even if we had the time it wouldn't have been that fulfilling for either of us.
I never understood what she needed. Maybe she was so passive she never td me, maybe it seemed so alien to me I never understood, maybe she was afraid of me, maybe she didn't know herself. But I felt alone in my marriage, and somehow I concluded that if I was going to remain faithful and committed to this person who I felt stuck with, she should do everything she could to make it bearable. In my mind that became sexually among other things.
I say peeling back the onion because my DB coach says that my sexual demands were an attempt to fulfill other real needs that weren't being met, such as feeling desirable, important, and admired. But I also know that it was the lack of love I had for myself that I was trying to compensate for by having her 'prove' her love to me.
Now, tonight I am trying to pick up my broken pieces. It's hard to love myself when I haven't for years. I dot know if I do or not. I ran from emotions for 22 years and just played pool. How much of my feeling bad is normal for being human? How much is normal for my situation? And how much is due to my need for self acceptance? For an emotional infant it's a lot to figure out.
So sexually I believe that I can do two things. First, learn to meet my own needs that I can meet such as self love and approval, then make sure I have the tools to have a better R next time around as far as meeting basic and reasonable R needs. Beyond that I still have to figure this out. That's why I'm going to the 'exploring healthy sexual boundaries' meeting. I feel the need to be loved by a woman and that is how I have always felt loved, so the notion that a woman I'm with doesn't have to be sexual if she doesn't choose to is confusing to me. I mean, it seems so obvious when I type it, like no one should be forced to have sex against their will. But I know I have to grow more and I'm discouraged that it comes so hard.
It feels so unfair. Like I have this need only my W can meet and it is so power it pretty much drives all I do. I felt like she never understood how important it was to me. All I did in my R was try to love her and provide for her so I'd meet her approval and hope she would love me the way I needed in return. Now I see that's not love, that's like buying dinner for a woman and expecting to go home with her on a grander scale. But my mind tells me 'but then how do I get what I want?!?' Make no mistake, I don just want sex, I'd love a woman I can explore the world with, partner on life with, read poems together, text throughout the day, do nice things for, etc. but since you asked about the issue ill agree I need more help and that I caused some rifts that may be insurmountable.
So again, layer one is health sexual boundaries which I'm working on. Layer two is a better R in which baser needs are met. And level three is getting better on my own so I'm not counting on an R to make me feel better. I know GAL is part of that and am taking small step (spending more time with friends, trying this meeting) but will give thought to some more. Trying to picture being content on my own without a woman that loves me and expresses that to me physically is harder. I'm reading, journaling, praying, meditating, starting these meetings, and talking about it with my IC and DB coach as well as my support network. I want to change and just can't see the road in front of me and am horrified with the pain I've inflicted and the consequences it's caused to me and my entire family. Yes, my W could've written that post. Life has been no picnic for me either. I've had enough and am ready to do whatever I can. So thank you for caring and ill keep you posted on what I learn in these regards.
25, I was hoping maybe you could stop by my thread so that I may partake in your wisdom. Thanks!
I say peeling back the onion because my DB coach says that my sexual demands were an attempt to fulfill other real needs that weren't being met, such as feeling desirable, important, and admired. But I also know that it was the lack of love I had for myself that I was trying to compensate for by having her 'prove' her love to me.
WOW!
I have never been able to put the words together, but reading that REALLY clicked on the lightbulb for me. Reading that is like looking in the mirror. Thank you so much for your profound words and insight.
The further my W and i drifted apart, the more I pushed for sex. The more I pushed for sex, the further we drifted apart. The more I pushed, the more she rejected. Every time she rejected me, I needed that much more to feel desired, important and admired.
I am not trying to be overly dramatic, but this post has changed my life for the better.
(Long post, that kind of week) 25, thank you for following this thread. It's nice to get feedback but with you I feel like you're really rooting me on.
You're right about how I handled myself in the M. I've been peeling back that onion. My M was so bad in so many ways. Neither my W nor I had a high self worth and we both counted on the other to make us happy. It didn't work. For her, she has issues being herself. She is a pleaser and was all about being a good mom, getting my approval, or the approval of the world. To me it felt like she had no personality.
But you chose her. Like a mirror? And didn't you say you were a perfectionist? So she could never measure up, but maybe that led you to think she'd never leave you...
I've lost track of how many men have told me they "married down" (my words, not theirs. They'd say they "rescued her" or "found her in the gutter", "saved her from a horrid family" etc) and those ungrateful women left them!
My belief is that no one wants to be told or reminded or somehow informed, that they were the lesser in the marriage and ought to be grateful....and I have seen many of those women LEAVE b/c they tire of that theme in their lives.
(Even if it were true, at some point it has to be dropped b/c they deserve credit for making their own lives better, not always forever giving the person they married the credit. How depressing.)
It seemed like she was a shell. We didn't have great conversation, our 'dates' were dinner and a movie and boring sex. We loved each other and there was passion at times, but not much intimacy.
"was passion at first, but not much intimacy" means what? How disclosing were you with your dreams and fears about life? Disclosure builds intimacy.
I sense a lot of blame here, even though you seem to want to even things out, what I mostly here is you blaming her for how you treated her. What say you?
I grew very restless. I felt like I was in a shell of a marriage. I started doing more and more on my own to entertain myself. Winning pool tournaments, killing it at work.
so you ignored her more? There was even LESS intimacy? I mean, let's TRY and see things from HER point of view, okay? I think you already know how you felt. Empathizing with her will help you a lot more than spinning negatively about her.
In turn she devoted herself to the kids and became very controlling with them, getting her needs met by their dependence, and shutting me out from the family as she needed to be the one that was needed for everything (the 'I don't deserve love so ill settle for being needed and get to be the noble martyr). I
This^^ is one heck of a way to blame her - for you ignoring your family --which you just admitted doing the paragraph before. I'm a lawyer and I know that work gives us accolades and bonuses and pats on the back and medals and certificates of appreciation and compliments and positive feedback, WAY more than caring for kids can (though not so much in the long run)...
So of course you chose the way you could feel most admired the fastest. That was a need of yours. But you cannot blame HER for your choices...really.
began to feel very neglected and resented that she didn't make me as much of a priority as she made the kids. Remember, 3 kids and a miscarriage in 10 years meant she was pregnant/nursing much o the time.
Uh, yeah I get it. So, who do you think was most affected by Her pregnancies and the miscarriage and child birth, you or her?
I mean to read it here, it's as if YOU went thru a lot that she didn't, but of course that's not true.
Zeus, you are missing out on your own role and greatly magnifying hers (blaming really) and Not owning your stuff. That does not help you OR the cause. Frankly I think the more you justify yourself, the less hope there is of meaningful permanent change in YOU.
We never dated as she was pregnant right away
How'd "she" get pregnant? Oh, you were "expecting" early in the R or early in the marriage or what? Surely you see that you played a role in this- but honest to God I read men saying their "wives got pregnant" as if they were somewhere else when it happened...there IS some blame going on here...and I don't think it's fair.
Also, why does it matter? Explain what difference it made. That you don't know how to have fun together?
Okay...that is a shared responsibility and it IS something you can learn, isn't it?
so we never for to take trips or have fun together. And with our disconnect even if we had the time it wouldn't have been that fulfilling for either of us.
negative mind reading and stinking thinking is what I call this^^^...
I never understood what she needed. Maybe she was so passive she never td me, maybe it seemed so alien to me I never understood, maybe she was afraid of me, maybe she didn't know herself.
How, if at all, did you try to get to know her? And you said elsewhere that she was afraid of you and that she had understandable reasons for that. Do you recall this?
But I felt alone in my marriage, and somehow I concluded that if I was going to remain faithful and committed to this person who I felt stuck with, she should do everything she could to make it bearable. In my mind that became sexually among other things.
Well, in retrospect do you see how it made HER feel? And do you truly believe her needs were being met? How can you if you don't know what her needs are? You do know she wanted to feel safe with you but she did not. She wanted to feel valued by you but you made it clear that only sex would give her value in your eyes and that makes most women (if not all) feel pretty trampy and valueless.
So, one could argue that if you were to hire a maid and a prostitute, you'd be "happily married".
I say peeling back the onion because my DB coach says that my sexual demands were an attempt to fulfill other real needs that weren't being met, such as feeling desirable, important, and admired. But I also know that it was the lack of love I had for myself that I was trying to compensate for by having her 'prove' her love to me.
Now, tonight I am trying to pick up my broken pieces. It's hard to love myself when I haven't for years. I dot know if I do or not. I ran from emotions for 22 years and just played pool.
Then here^^ we can see that your lack of intimacy in the marriage was surely not due to HER inability to feel or express emotions - any more than your inability to. Correct?
This^^ seems like a lot of honesty here, but it conflicts with some of your earlier blaming comments. Just reflect on that when you can...
How much of my feeling bad is normal for being human? How much is normal for my situation? And how much is due to my need for self acceptance? For an emotional infant it's a lot to figure out.
You're intelligent enough to avail yourself of the resources around to figure it out. And if you are brave enough, and persistent enough, the growth will come.
So sexually I believe that I can do two things. First, learn to meet my own needs that I can meet such as self love and approval, then make sure I have the tools to have a better R next time around as far as meeting basic and reasonable R needs.
Making sure you are pleasing your partner will go a long way to feeling admired and appreciated, sexually. But that does not mean it should be the sole avenue for it. How can a woman show her h that she loves him if she cannot have sex with him for some amount of time? I'm asking you NOT b/c I don't know how but b/c YOU need to know how she can do that or she'll feel lousy about herself. There has to be more than one way to express love to you. What else are your love languages?
(Have you read The Five Love Languages" by Chapman? It's worth reading and though it may seem shallow at first, it amazes me how infrequently we speak in our lover's language. Like we can KNOW they love words of affirmation but then scratch our heads about giving a compliment to our spouse! It's not rocket science, but it IS healthy and leads to a lot more happiness in our marriages to do this).
I think Not making it all about your needs, will help YOU meet them, actually. Paradoxical, isn't it?
Beyond that I still have to figure this out. That's why I'm going to the 'exploring healthy sexual boundaries' meeting. I feel the need to be loved by a woman and that is how I have always felt loved, so the notion that a woman I'm with doesn't have to be sexual if she doesn't choose to is confusing to me.
Then you need to get some clarity on this^^. What about when you cannot have sex? As I understand it, not all men can use Viagra or the other stuff, forever. So there will come a time when you cannot make love. What will YOU do to feel loved then? What should SHE do?
Even at a biological level, seems to me that YOU need to come up with another way to show and express and receive love.
I mean, it seems so obvious when I type it, like no one should be forced to have sex against their will.
because it's rape. Plain and simple. Do you see that? How does that term make you feel? I'm being sincere.
But I know I have to grow more and I'm discouraged that it comes so hard.
It feels so unfair. Like I have this need only my W can meet and it is so power it pretty much drives all I do.
That must be very terrifying. Have you considered going to Sex Addict's meeting? I mean if "pretty much" all you do is driven by the desire for sex, that isn't healthy. Do you agree or not?
I felt like she never understood how important it was to me. All I did in my R was try to love her and provide for her so I'd meet her approval and hope she would love me the way I needed in return.
Meaning, you did what you did so she'd have sex with you? Honestly -- if you read what else you've written here, that's how it's coming off to me (and maybe to her).
That isn't love, that's manipulation. You ONLY did those things so she'd do in bed what you wanted...
Now I see that's not love, that's like buying dinner for a woman and expecting to go home with her on a grander scale.
Thank you for seeing this^^...
But my mind tells me 'but then how do I get what I want?!?'
Loving her in HER love language would be a start. You don't know her needs, so I think it's safe to say she has not had her needs met for a long LONG time if ever.
Learn them.
And if she truly cannot be who you want in bed AND IF your needs are reasonable, and IF sex is that important to you and you become convinced that there are plenty of women who will feel the way you want them to feel, and that you are not being "unusual" in your wants and requirements,
then perhaps your marriage is not worth saving. But I think you have a whole lot of work to do on YOU, before you can figure that out.
Make no mistake, I don just want sex, I'd love a woman I can explore the world with, partner on life with, read poems together, text throughout the day, do nice things for, etc.
I believe this is the first time you've said that as far as I recall.
It almost does Not jive with your other comments.
But I hope it's true. OTOH, most people dream of this in their marriage and I bet SHE wants the same thing. Who wouldn't?
but since you asked about the issue ill agree I need more help and that I caused some rifts that may be insurmountable.
Most (not all, but most) issues are NOT insurmountable, but I don't know your wife OR what you put her thru in this dimension of your marriage.
I know about the "calendar event" and how it must have made her feel (as in, NOT "in the mood" for sure)....
So again, layer one is health sexual boundaries which I'm working on. Layer two is a better R in which baser needs are met.
"Baser" or "basic" needs? Meaning what?
And level three is getting better on my own so I'm not counting on an R to make me feel better.
Good insight^^
I know GAL is part of that and am taking small step (spending more time with friends, trying this meeting) but will give thought to some more. Trying to picture being content on my own without a woman that loves me and expresses that to me physically is harder. I'm reading, journaling, praying, meditating, starting these meetings, and talking about it with my IC and DB coach as well as my support network.
I want to change and just can't see the road in front of me and am horrified with the pain I've inflicted and the consequences it's caused to me and my entire family. Yes, my W could've written that post. Life has been no picnic for me either. I've had enough and am ready to do whatever I can.
It's okay to admit she had a lot of reasons for being unhappy without you immediately competing by saying "life was no picnic for me either". Lose the scorecard. They do not belong inside a marriage. But know that I had my own scorecard and it was a long one. Took me awhile to throw it away and not go back to read it again (figuratively speaking). But it really does help. I think that is why the words "from this day forward" are so brilliant to have in our marriage vows.
We MUST let go of the past or we'll never be happy together. I honestly believe that a long term marriage that is happy, REQUIRES chunks of forgiveness....( or as Samuel Jackson said "a lot of amnesia".)
So thank you for caring and ill keep you posted on what I learn in these regards.
One big suggestion is for you to Check out the "Essential Experience" workshop in Philadelphia (not anything else with a similar name, just the one there in Philly).
("EE" is the acronym you'll see a lot of AND many DBers have gone to EE and all of them got a lot out of it).
I apologize if I've already posted about it and I don't want to sound like a salesman here. Nor am I getting a commission! But I found it literally life changing, and profoundly deep. Even though I've had some great therapists, weekly meetings can be "fragmented" b/c when you make a breakthrough you have to go back to work or pick up the kids and the next week, start all over and hope you can find your way back to that insight...but a long weekend of a good workshop (not all workshops are good, for sure) CAN be very helpful.
They have a decent website and you can call if you have specific questions.
it's "efficient" to me (and my h) b/c you have the continuity to work on an issue to it's solution, in a very safe environment, and to leave with an action plan AND to have follow up support available.
For us it was like 2-3 years of therapy in one long weekend. Unlike some workshops that have a lot of lectures in them, it has "experiential" exercises that are designed to elicit your real emotions about a topic. So you cannot "edit or rehearse" your answers, which I really benefitted from b/c as a L, I often do edit my real answers. This was a powerful self discovery tool.
In fact it changed me so much that my h did it as well a few months later. He's not the "workshop type of guy" - but he went on his own. He told me before hand that he saw changes in me "the moment" [I] came off the plane"....and he wanted in on that.
Good luck Zues...(all this time I thought your screen name was Zeus like the god, but it's not...okay someday you will have to explain it if you can do so discreetly)
Hang in there.
PS
Sorry for not asking this earlier, but how are your kids doing with all this?
25, you're right. I haven't been as accountable as I thought. Making excuses, blaming, spinning, it's a great if what I want is sympathy. But if I want to be a good husband with a shot to make this or any R work it does nothing for me. So, specifically, my part of the demise of the M is as I can best see now:
-viewed my W as inferior and felt that I 'married down' as a favor, then allowed that to color my attitude and behavior to her over the years
-neglected her needs by not making it more of a priority to understand them, dismissing their importance, and worst of all deliberately denying them in an attempt to control and manipulate her behavior.
-pressured her to do things sexually she wasn't comfortable with or when she didn't want to participate.
-neglected my children and forced her to carry that responsibility on her own.
-acted angry in ways that made her feel fearful
Her love languages are acts of service and gifts, although all 5 were valuable to her to a degree. My 180s and what I'm currently doing:
-remaining calm and laid back, less intense (meditating)
-validating her and listenin intently to the needs she is communicating
-being an involved and loving dad, making sure she has time on her own and a partner to raise the children with regardless of status.
-quitting porn and doing additional work (books/therapy work) to try to develop healthier outlooks and boundaries.
-giving gifts/doing acts of service for the CHILDREN.
This is a little rough, didn't get into the specifics in how I've executed all of that. But the point is well taken. Stay in my sandbox, make no excuses and just focus on my problems and my solutions, take growing steps, and find ways with my interactions with her to allow her to see them.
I thought I was doing that but there is no question that when my perspective turns to that of a victim it will stut my growth and impact my behavior. Already today I have felt more compassionate towards her, and was better as to handle responding to her email (about lawyers/D).
Kids are doing well. My S10 told me its difficult for him and that's a big step, he usually hides this from me because he's sensitive to what I think of him given the unstable nature of our relationship up until now. But we're bondin more and more, it's been good. And we're getting him set up with a school councelor so hopefully he can get additional support. D's 3 and 7 don't seem to be too bothered. STBX has been supportive of my parenting and so far we've been very amicable to each other and with he children.
I am very interested in the E E and have read your reviews before. I may be able to make that happen. I told my dad I felt like I needed to get more help and even mentioned this to him. I'll see if I can work it out.
Thanks for the 2x4 25. This was a good opportunity to regroup and refocus. Oh- ps, I'm back at work today and this along with staying in my sandbox has helped me feel much more secure. Amazing how focusing on myself and being appreciative can go along way!
Big break through. I referenced it on a disappearing post but I'm so excited I have to share.
I think I found a level of detachment here. Here's how it happened: I did what's called the 'GOODBYE/HELLO' exercise. Basically you write a goodbye letter to everything you're losing. You reference that when you're down to validate your pain and help process your loss. But then you write a hello letter to everything you're gaining. The new life you're excited about.
What I'm losing/gaining isn't the major breakthrough, but I'll mention it. I'm losing my W, my kids growing up with both parents together, the chance to be married forever to the mother of my children, a lot of faith in love and commitment, my house, part of my income, and a chapter of my life that meant a lot. What I gain is the chance to get my own place and make it mine, to have undivided time with my children, to raise them how I want when they're with me, to have increased income (compared to being sole provider) and a lot of free time to pursue my passions, the chance to grow and find joy on my own, and the chance to meet a woman that has the character and commitment to be a wonderful partner for years to come.
So here's the point. I was nearly a WAH in 2011, went through a MLC and was very frustrated with the M. I didn't walk, although I wasn't a very good H all the time either. But the point is that my coping mechanism was to grit my teeth and tell myself "you can't leave this marriage, marriage is important and real, other women/free time/passions aren't whats important, the marriage will mean more in the long run", etc. I was so terrified I'd screw up by leaving and regretting my decision I was terrified to even LOOK at the other grass in fear it would lure me away.
Well, I still believe what I always said. I DO believe in M, and this isn't the road I wouldn't chosen. However SHE chose this road. And SHE isn't changing her mind anytime soon. So at this point I have given myself complete permission to get excited about my new life.
This doesn't mean I'm not going to keep DBing (or trying to), but I am honestly doing that for ME. I don't believe we will recover from here, and with the exceptions of some natural pain some times I'm pretty ok with that. No, I'm doing this so I am better on my own, in my next R, and so I can look back and know I handled this according to my core beliefs. That is all.
So I'd encourage anyone that needs help detaching to do the goodbye/hello letters, and to give yourself permission to let go and move on.
"So I'd encourage anyone that needs help detaching to do the goodbye/hello letters, and to give yourself permission to let go and move on."
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard on the boards in a long time. What you're doing IS NOT detaching. It's still running away from a problem. Just like when you were in MLC.
Detachment is removing your emotions from your situation so that no matter what you spouse does, it doesn't affect you. It's not a take it or leave it scenario.
It shows you don't understand what DBing is. It's not all a "ploy" or plan to trick your W back. It's a life change. When you say that you are going to "try" to DB, shows that you don't get it.
You've been at this for just under 4 months. It takes longer than that to get things in order. My W took 3 years before the fog shifted even a little.
But if you don't have the patience, then file the paperwork and leave. Simple as that. But don't put it under the guise of detachment because that's not what it's all about.
I admit that I fail to understand what I'm missing yet rarely do I see your posts miss he mark so my explanation below is not strictly defending my posting ion as I know I'm the noob here, but just to try to figure out the differences between what your talking about and what I am saying. I'll reread your post again later and see if I pick anything else up I missed the first time.
I'm trying to grow in the areas I failed as a husband. I said try because I know I have a long road ahead. I just am not doing this for STBX, I'm doing it for me. If my W feels differently someday I can reevaluate, but I'm no going to tie my happiness with my life to someone I can't control. I am accepting what is happening and walking the road in manner that is consistent with my beliefs.
My DB coach thought it was great and told me she was going to share the hello/goodbye letters wih others she worked with. She told me I was on the right track because it allowed me to forget about the M and allow me and my STBX to forge a respectful partnership to Coparent the kids. She said that's a good goal no matter what and the first step towards reconsciliation anyway, and that the more I had let to the more effectively I'd be able to handle that road. My IC also agreed while I have personal goals I have to keep striving for this made sense.
My understanding of DBing is that it's about changing your behavior and keeping track of what works. I have behavior I need to change, and am continuing to do this in new ways. Part of that behavior I am changing is being emotionally attached to my STBX's every move which in turn leads me to be a doormat or not my best self. Yes, my wife is filing and I will cooperate. I'm not burning bridges, and I even admit his isnt what I want, but if the best thing I can do is work on me and be a good Coparent than that's what I've been doing. And I'm going to enjoy my life because its a good one. Maybe the phrase 'move on' wasnt the best. I meant emotionally. I have the patience to work on myself and not make irreversible decisions for a year from the signed d, well see where things are at the. But I don't have the patience to make that year agonizing emotionally for myself.
Brutal. I thought the D would be the hard part. My night to visit with kids, STBX comes home drunk and felt like talking. I didn't really want to but she started talking about not doing so well, and at this point when she says that I get concerned about her safety.
She went on about her normal talking points, how she was trapped, dependent on me, needs the divorce done, was afraid she would lose the kids and that if she did she really would kill herself and make sure the job got done, told me that she was lonely because she stopped talking to OM (again), and many more points about how I destroyed her in the M.
I asked her if she was thinking about hurting herself. She said no. I told her to let me know if that ever changed. The. I validated a few things and headed out.
I have my children all weekend so I know they'll be safe with me. I talk to DB coach Monday. What a tough spot. On the one hand if I get too protective of the children And take bold action I might end up with a dead ex-wife or a hostile custody battle. But if I'm too passive I could put their emotional well being at risk. This is more than I bargained for. I just wanted to fight for my M and my own healing, this is insanity. And I have to constantly reevaluate each week to make sure I'm doing this right based on how I feel she's doing.
Anyway, I'll get professional guidance, execute, and know that whatever comes it isn't from me being complacent. I'll do my best and live with the consequences.
YOU WROTE:
Anyway, I'll get professional guidance, execute, and know that whatever comes it isn't from me being complacent. I'll do my best and live with the consequences.
When you evaluate whether you have done your TRUE BEST, be as honest and as brave as you possibly can be.
Be damn honest and damn brave.
Learn from your mistakes; own them (which necessitates NOT repeating them), and improve as a man.
Be loving and strong. Become a man of honor and dignity, who keeps his word. Teach your children to see the positives in others, including & especially in their family members.
Become a man who shows love and kindness whenever he can, a man who laughs hard and often, who values learning and isn't too humble to say "I don't know".
Once you believe you have become the best Zues you can become, then turn your marriage over to God, and go forward in your life, & walk in peace.
You will have literally done all you can. No one can ask for more.
"I admit that I fail to understand what I'm missing yet rarely do I see your posts miss he mark"
No I didn't miss the mark. Your second explanation of what you meant is much better than what you "encouraged" others to do in your first post. Language and the way you say things are important in any relationship. Just because you didn't explain your belief a certain way isn't the reader's fault in understanding. It's yours.
Follow 25yearsmlc's advice.
Thank you 25, Bond. Question tonight is about the line between rescuing and withdrawing.
Let me explain. My DB coach told me that the codependent cycle feels like abuse to the one being 'rescued'. A rescuer swoops in to feel important, then grows impatient of the person they're rescuing, then detached, and finally criticizes and judges. The person that was rescued then feels abandoned and attacked. Not a good set up. So DB coach told me NOT to do any rescuing when my STBX starts acting needy or helpless. But she also told me that ignoring the behavior could be insensitive and rejecting. DB coach told me 'I don't think she's done with you yet' based on how emotional she continues to be in her communication. I'm trying to grow MYSELF by finding a healthier way to reply to these things.
Tonight I got an email in which she made a few comments I'm trying to figure out how to respond to:
-in case you care OM went off to the other girl and said some things I will end communication over. Not that it matters but it is what it
-So I'm the one getting screwed with money and no job and still living in a house as a housewife which I am not anymore. Great...and my lovely check engine light came on.
I feel trapped. As for OM leaving her, if I say I don't care I'm insensitive, if I say I do I'm clingy and she just reassures herself that I'm still her plan B. how I really feel is that I don't care about OM at this point, I'm taking care of myself and hope she does the same for herself. Of course I hope she isn't suffering but I'm trying to steer clear right now and play in my sandbox. Any tips on this one?
As for money, she has done nothing but criticize and complain about finances. Meanwhile I am still depositing 100% of my income in our joint account and staying with a family friend for next to nothing so as to make sure everything is smooth until the D is signed. I know she is stressed about money, but I literally don't have more to give and am already on the doormat side. Which I don't mind as it is short term and worth it to me to know I didn't use finances as a control tactic. Point is I can understand she hates being dependent on me right now but don't know that I can do anything about it.
My understanding is that the middle ground is to validate, then ask for her ideas on how she's thinking we could move forward. This way she is heard, has a voice in the outcome, but I'm not chasing or rescuing. Is this on the right track?
I wish it was as easy as 'be a good person' but I'm learning I was really meeting my own needs for importance when I thought I was being loving. As I get better on my own I'm trying to learn better boundaries and ways to show caring and concern without going into these rescue roles.
Any thoughts? Ps, I AM doing better emotionally day by day, these things aren't rocking my world, but I want to go past being ok on my own to being ok while interacting with others. That's still trickier for me. Thank you all for the time and help.
Zues126,
I am kinda in the same situation as you so I will be watching your thread for the vets advice.
My IMC said I was a rescuer also. It is tough to break the cycle. The feeling of being trapped also rings with me. I hope now that W has moved out and daily contact is non existent I wont feel the urge to rescue her when she complains about things that are aren't going right for her if she ever contacts me.I needed to do that before she moved out but didn't do a good job. I also need the boundaries to keep me out of the rescue roles.
Good luck to you
Some updates. Last weekend (8 days ago) I took my 3 kids to the north shore by Lake Superior. We stayed at a water park and had a blast. We also did some sight seeing, hiking, skipping rocks on the lake, and met up with family I had in the area. In addition, I had several very great dad moments. I'll summarize by saying that my STBX is on the helicopter/overprotective side, and I being a needed balance. She's a great mom, but I can really see how much good it does them to see another way of living. Little things, like my daughter who usually throws up in he car but didn't after I talked to her about it being what you expect to happen, and my son who usually throws fits until I talked about a few things with him, he stayed low key and managed to go the weekend without any serious meltdowns.
Since I've been back its been business as usual. Fun with kids, playing chess a lot with my new roommate, shooting some pool, working hard, and reading books. Currently on "no more mr nice guy" based on these threads. I think that applies to me in many ways and I'm glad I picked it up. Still have a lot of personal growth to focus on, taking it slow and steady.
One dilemma I've been faced with is a new job opportunity. I'm being recruited by a manager in another division within the same company. It's a cool position, but it would also mean more change, getting out of my comfort zone, taking some risks, etc. the conservative side of me says stay at the job I'm at as I have it on auto pilot to a degree, and take on new job offers once he D is final and I'm more stabilized. On the other hand it might be something along the lines of a GAL activity that would provide a challenge and outlet for my creative energy and talents. Definitely has financial upside.
Any thoughts about this? Hope all is well with each of you all things considered!
Thanks for posting on my thread, Zeus! I think you sound excited about the job opportunity. Don't hold back on W's account. New challenges might be a welcome distraction right now.
New job decision should be about whether you want it or not. But the challenge should certainly help clear your head of anything else.
Thanks guys. Another toughie:
My W is now an alcoholic. Since her attempt she tied to quit drinking, then tried to moderate. Now she is dangerously out of control. First she hid it from me, then she came home drunk when I was over with the children. She was very threatening (she said she really would kill herself and not just 'cry for help' if she lost the kids, then said she had 'dirt' on me if I tried to take them away). Now she is drinking every night, sometimes black out drunk.
What scared me was last time I saw the kids. She got home stumbling drunk. She drove home.
I personally haven't said a word. At this moment she is nothing but hostile towards me and I feel anything I say will be dismissed. I'm not supporting her or enabling her, I'm just staying as far away as I can and only communicating about the children.
This is a scary spot. If she dies in a car crash I don't want to regret my actions. What am I supposed to do here?
I wish I had advice for you. I have a somewhat similar sitch. Its hard to know what to do especially when you are not in the typical "caretaker" role of a normal H in a happy M.
Ive been advised to go to Al Anon. I havent done this but its on my list, perhaps if we end up in a better place or piecing. Right now it doesnt really make sense as I am generally acting as if ive moved on from her.
All Ive done is cover my bases. I havent drank a drop at home in 3 months, not that I did too much of that before. But I dont bring a single drop of booze into the house. I dont even know how effective a gesture it is, but its me saying "Im standing for your sobriety" in some way, i guess.
My W seems to keep her drinking under control but I honestly dont know. She hides it for the most part, though I monitor the signs (I know some of her hiding spots). When shes out for the night, however, thats 8-12 hours that I have no idea what shes doing. Probably driving drunk, possibly making other mistakes.
Curious to see what advice anyone has here.
I had a sleepless night. The consequences of my actions/I actions are powerful. I realize that I can stay emotionally detached from her whe still taking action as needed to protect my family.
I formed a graph of actions i could take in my mind. They range by severity, and they range by directness. For example, directly I could talk to her casually, talk to her seriously (lay out consequences), take bold action such as moving back in, serving her papers, or staging and intervention. Indirectly I could inform her friends and family (or even, say, just talk to her dad), I could arrange an intervention, or I could call social services.
Right now I want to talk to my DB Coach. She is AMAZING at knowing what to do in tough spots. I will see if she can squeeze me in as a priority call. My plan would be to look at my DB appointments as 'checkpoints' I have to get through. And she can help prepare me for what lies Inbetween. I also talked to both my parents, and at their recommendation (both my parents think she's seriously out of control and a threat to herself and others, ie the kids) I have an appointment with my lawyer Monday. I need to protect myself legally from being considered neglectf to leave them In her care and financially from fines and damages she may cause (the hospital bills are rolling in from the attempt, more will lie ahead).
But IM doing ok for myself and rising to this. I still have a lot of personal growth ahead but have come a ways in 4 months too. I couldn't have handled this when I started. In a way I feel god is giving this to me to help me grow. Oh, and I've decided to take the new job DESPITE all of this. I think I can manage it and wouldn't feel good passin on the opportunity out of fear and self doubt.
Thank you all for your support and coaching. Celebrate what you have in your world today and have a good weekend n
Zues, you posted this originally on Lostluv's thread but I didn't want to hijack it. As for future Rs, it's ok to feel that way. First off, being a little jaded and cynical is easy, like when a woman smiles at you and you think 'I know where that leads, stay away!' But its not a spot to live. It's just a sign you have more growth ahead. Once you truly understand you STBX's feelings and failings you'll find it's easier to be compassionate and accepting rather than hurt and victimized.
And, funny thing- ill post on my sitch later, but there is a chance I may have to take the kids at some point and be a full time single dad. That would mean working all during the week, and having the kids every minute I'm not at work. Wouldn't leave much time for dating or hobbies! In fact, being a dad might be the only thing I'd be doing for 15 years. That would jus end up being the bulk of my life.
That's not what I wanted. I wanted a M. But that's what I may get. And if it is...ill find joy in it. Who says I have to be married to enjoy life? Again, no sour grapes here, I am standing by my M to the end. But it would be ungrateful for me not to enjoy what God has given me simply because my W wanted out. The human spirit is extremely resilient if we let ourselves be open to the joy all around us.
You seem to have such a great and centered attitude about it that I just wanted to post over here and see if I could absorb some of it.
just trying to catch up on your situation here. I see a couple lines that I want to quote that are EXACTLY why I'm having issues with detaching...
"It's hard to find the balance between detaching and giving up."
"Problem is that she said at DB I wasn't supportive enough of her through those tough times, but now she doesn't want my support."
makes me feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I'm sorry to see the alcoholism. unfortunately, you need to protect your children from this. I'm not sure how exactly as I do not want to give bad advice, but you may want to consult someone that can help you.
my wife was a big partier in college and when we were dating she drank at least once a week. after we got married , she only drank occasionally. once our daughter was born, she wouldn't drink at all...if she did it would be RARELY one glass of wine or something . I would occasionally say "we should get drunk together, it would be fun" she said she had no desire to drink.
now....the past couple months she has went out with friend(s) on several occasions and got pretty wasted. completely different person.
hope things get better for ya. good luck!
Big day. Spoke with DB coach AND IC. Both agreed it was too soon to swoop in and battle for full custody. But they both were on board with me protecting myself by separating finances, etc.
I really admitted today that i was scared of my STBX in conflict. I had a tendency to be bullied, be bullied, be bullied, then just snap and become the bully because I was tired of it. DB coach said the was the model for most males. But I only get scared of her disapproval because I have mentally given her power over my self worth. She uses that to control me. To be fair, I think I did this to her too. Funny how we were both bullies and victims.
So she asked me 'what would you do if you weren't afraid of STBX's reaction?' She again told me it was time to get my own place and separate finances. She said if STBX sees taking care of myself as an act of aggression or hostility, I simply can't trust her because any court in the country would agree its only fair to take care of myself and have a place for the kids. If she says 'how am I going to pay for the house' I just shrug and say its her house, she can sell it or find an alternative. Point is, I don't tell her what to do, I just tell her what I'm going to do.
I'm meeting with a lawyer tomorrow to discuss financial separation. I'd like to be protected before having that conversation as I don't want her to suddenly clean out the accounts, charge up the credit cards, etc.
I look forward to the day I look to myself and God solely for my self worth and make bold and righteous decisions because I'm free of this type of fear of conflict. This is my next step towards that. Stronger each day...
Zues126,
Sorry you are in such a rough situation. I don't have much advice, but I agree try to go to Al Anon, they will help you tremendously. You're struggling with a lot, but the drinking combined with suicide / self destruction is so much when added to the D / S situation. The folks at Al Anon will really understand.
Thanks TRD. The fact is we are all in a rough situation. Not just is on this site, it's the human condition. More than anything I've learned from this to appreciate what I have. I can't decide in my mind what I want and be unhappy if I don't get it. That's addict and childish behavior. I have a wonderful family, great support network, new job, tremendous gifts, and I'm learning to be a great dad. How can I complain!
I keep being amazed at how I'm honestly happier day to day right now than I was in the R. I don't think my STBX is saying that but I'm not smug about that. She's on her own road. I don't feel loving towards her at this time because I've really let to, but I know I still care deeply. I can tell by how often she crosses my mind; and how she still appears in my dreams. Yet it is not her, rather the image of he role she used to play in my life. Now I focus on playing that role for MYSELF. I want to be whole, or made whole by God.
I honk I have it easy because I'm not living in the same house. If I was it would be brutal. As it is I can just keep a LOT of distance. I feel terrible about the kids not being as far removed, but both IC and DB coach say courts and social services wouldn't take the kids away from her unless things got much worse. They would have to be turning up with bruises, missing meals, not getting to school daily, and many more symptoms. IC said unfortunately if we took kids away from bad parents that would be the majority. DB coach said Social Services only takes action to prevent things that have already happened. Bottom line, I have to settle for being the best parent I can be, and supporting them through their journey without undermining their mother.
Thank you all for the support. I'm doing better than ever and maybe that's from your prayers. Also, I am still working on myself. My new mantra is 'what would I do if I wasn't scared of my W'? And realizing the I get to decide my value, not her. I also am being more direct in my communication with her, same general line. More to come, take care!
Hey all, I'm not posting quite as often but wanted to say thank you for the support. What a caring group of people. Caring enough to inspire me when I need inspiration, and redirect me when I'm going down cheese less tunnels.
This is a big week for me. My DB coach told me to find my own place. Reminder, I am staying with a friend for next to nothing and still depositing 100% of my income in the joint account. The plan was for her to get a job (she is a sahm) but she hasn't been proactive, or even active. It's been 4 months now and I'm no longer being reasonable, I'm being a rug and communicating that my needs are unimportant. Not only do I not have a place for me, it means I don't get much time with my children as I am still just visiting them at the house 2 times weekly. Once I have a place I can upgrade to every other weeken and a night a week. This is good for me and necessary for the Children.
Of course, this means explaining to my STBX that I won't be supporting her to this extent anymore. I am going to separate finances and start giving her a monthly support payment similar to what the courts might order. This is nowhere near enough for her to support the household. My DB coach said to answer questions about how she is supposed to pay for everything with an answer like 'I'm not telling you what to do, I'm telling you what I'm going to do. The children need more time to spend with me in a place we feel comfortable. This is the biggest priority.' Whether she gets a job, sells the house, forecloses, moves in with relatives, or replaces me with someone else, all up to her.
To protect myself I've met with an attorney and will be drawing up separation paperwork on Wednesday. I will serve it to her later this week. This will protect me to a large extent from her racking up debt.
I am speaking to DB coach again tomorrow to work out the details of how to present this. I was thinking about still giving 100% of my income in November just to give her some time to prepare for real, but want her opinion. Also, she told me not to file D yet...the separation was my attorneys idea and we wouldn't file it, just serve it to protect me and prepare for separation of finances. Seems in line with DB coach but want her opinions on that as well.
The exciting part is that once I do that I will basically be living as I wi be post divorce in every way but name. From where I'm at that's a step up. For my STBX that will mean starting to face some tough realities. She thinks she'll be partying on the weekends I have the children but she may be working and dealing with the reality of a single mom. Not hoping she suffers, just hoping it helps her hit her bottom so she starts taking better care of herself.
Finally, I accepted the job and start 11/3. This is a big part of my GAL, not letting my sitch hold me back. It's scary but I think i can do it. In the 2-3 year range it could be a big income raise, like adding a salary on top of my salary. Can't wait to dive in!
So lots going on. Scary job. I'm scared of y STBX's reaction but challenging myself to grow and further detach my self worth from her judgment. I am realizing that I'm a good guy...in fact, the less I depend on her to believe that the healthier I feel. Having fun and many more good days than tough. More to come after these exchanges go down, thank you all and soldier on!
Zeus, I think DB would say don't initiate anything -- let wife do all the work. That being said, if you feel that the situation is untenable and you have to look out for yourself, then do so. It also might jolt her into realizing the reality of the situation. I too struggle with these legal issues (check my thread). My H and I did separate our finances early in this process -- just a couple of days after BD -- at my initiation because I didn't think I could trust him. Still don't.
Kudos on the job! Sounds like an exciting opportunity with great potential!
Congrats on the job Zues. Good for you! Sounds like wise advice from your DB Coach.
Zeus, your attitude sounds right. Focus on you and doing what is right for your family. If this jolts your W back into reality, awesome. Or it just prepares you better for a new and better life. All of us had a hand in our Ms and where they are today. But those of us on this forum are working on us and our Ms (to the extent that we can). We all will emerge stronger and better from this ordeal, and a lot wiser.
Tough day. Said goodbye to a lot of coworkers and I feel that loss too. Funny, after working closely for 6 years it feels like they are your friends. But once you leave the reality is they aren't there anymore with few exceptions. I am choosing to look at that as though we got very close together in a very limited relationship. That is more positive than saying I was fooled into thinkin these relationships were actually meaningful. But it is both sad to leave them and disappointing to realize they are so fleeting.
That is why I value M so much. I felt God wanted us to have one person that was here with you for the count. And I get that I made things difficult. But then why was I made in a way where it would be so difficult to continue to choose to love each other?
Next the distorted thinking comes out. I am afraid no woman will ever stick with me. I am afraid that women don't need men anymore, that we've become obsolete. That our differences make us insensitive, demanding, and not worth the hassle. And I'm afraid the only way I could trick a woman into being with me is to pretend I'm something I'm not because there's something wrong with me.
I recognize some of the 'no more mr nice guy' symptoms in the above paragraph, about being afraid to be myself. But changing that is hard. If I AM afraid to be myself, then isn't changing that actually NOT being myself? It says ask for what you want directly, but I feel ashamed of what I want because I'm still wrestling with desire. I've controlled my behavior, but again, I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere sometimes. It sure feels like I'm stuffing my feelings, desires, walking down a painful road I could avoid altogether and doing it without medication or defense mechanisms, all for a futile cause. Not my M, just changing me.
I'm not trying to dwell on negative feelings. We all battle them at times. Just battling them tonight and purging them out to reduce them to words. The upside is that I made good choices today. I didn't give up when things got difficult. Sometimes it's so hard you can't picture why this road makes sense, but I remember there is a reason so I am still on it. Hopefully the reason is more clear again tomorrow. DB4L! Take that negative energy!
Just got an email. More later but this is a touchy situation. Can anyone help me with some validating and supportin replies for something like this? One complaint she had was that I wasn't there for her through tough times. I'm wired a little differently and this doesn't come easy to me. Beyond saying I'm sorry, that's tough, let me know if you need anything or more help with the kids to make time for her...what else can I say that's appropriate?
EMAIL:
My aunt XXX has Cancer. She is in XXx right now and had surgery on Tuesday. Apparently the cancer was described as a paint can dropped and splattering all over. They removed the big chunks and planned chemo for the rest of the little stuff. However, this morning she had a stroke and and aneurysm on top of it. She will never be able to walk or talk again. Not good. She most likely won't be coming back here. HUSBAND and the girls are making the big hard decisions now. It's just all horrible.
Hi Zues,
You are smart to think about how you respond to W's email about her aunt's cancer. First, I would call W and not send an email or text. And keep the focus on your W, and not you - 'how are you doing?', 'how does this make you feel?', nothing about you and how sorry you are about this.
You know your W, what may be her fears about the aunt's cancer? Was she close to the aunt? Is cancer something W or her family have gone thru before? Speak from your heart to best be a support for your W, but do not use this to try and pursue your W. Best wishes.
^^^ Good advice
That is why I value M so much. I felt God wanted us to have one person that was here with you for the count. And I get that I made things difficult. But then why was I made in a way where it would be so difficult to continue to choose to love each other?
I ditto this, Zues. I have told my wife in the past that she is my rock. When thing are going rough I want to be able to count on my marriage and not have to worry about that too.
I went with this email (we don't really talk on the phone) but then I did call her and mentioned she didn't have to leave the house tonight or I could reschedule my visit is she wanted to be with the kids. She said she needed the night out and I validated and told her to have fun.
Maybell, I have received specific feedback on the question of friends vs not friends. Ill post later. With the kids now. Jefe, thanks for hearing me. I may be able to handle it but it stinks.
EMAIL:
I don't know what to say. I know how much family means to you and how close you are, it must feel pretty helpless right now. I'm sure she knows how much you care about her and hope you have the opportunity to continue to show that. And XXX and their daughters couldn't ask for a more supportive friend. I just hope you have the support you need too, you're dealing with a lot already and this can't be easy. Very scary stuff. Please let me know what you need whether its some coverage with the kids for a visit, or just talking about it after my visit tonight or some other time on the phone when it starts to feel like too much.
I'm at the house now. Until I get my own place I see he kids twice weekly at he house. STBX goes out.
First the good- I took my children to a church my friend and his family go to for a Halloween themed carnival. There were 15-20 games such as ring tosses, bowling with plastic pins, cake walks, and many other crafts (pipe cleaner pumpkins), as well as face painting. As they played games they won candy. They also got to meet my friends kids and play together. It was a very good time and we all had a blast.
Now I've got them put to bed. It's that hour gap between their bed time and when STBX gets home. I always feel a bit down having to be here, then having to leave again. I'm able to handle it. I mean, I'm not depressed or suicidal or anything. Just hard. And I know that while I'm doing better, it will probably hurt for a lot longer still.
But the truth is that's just life. When we were married it wasn't easy. The last three years may have been almost as hard as the breakup. Not saying I wanted this, but it helps me to remember reality. Reality is that my problems aren't all because of he break up. I think it's easy for us LBS's to pretend that all the suffering in our life is due to our WAS leaving. That's just not the case. Remember my title is 'keeping it real'. The fact is that I truly believe that life is what we make it, so if we can't find peace on our own, reconciliation wouldn't change anything (or even be possible).
GAL went well. Hung out with a friend on Friday night, saw a movie. Yesterday went to a get together with a coworker and met his wife and friends. Good times. Someday I hope to host get together a with a woman I love there with me. My STBX and I never did that. Nor did we ever go anywhere together. She wasn't into it and was entirely focused on the children. Refused a babysitter. We went out maybe annually if that. Sigh. To do it over...
Anyway, kinda rambling. Just that lonely time of evening. But if you want to bring it back to a 180...I guess I can say I'm handling my sadness better than pre-BD. I'm just sitting with my feelings and not disassociating or medicating somehow. And I'm doing enough GAL stuff that I'm not moping all the time.
So parenting, GAL, handling my emotions head on, living in reality, and being appreciative for what I have. It's a long road but its longer if I don't keep walking, and I'm not going to wait until the end of it to love y life because that would be an insult to what I've been given. Good night all.
Glad to see you in this good place.
She's, sounds like you are avoiding the LBS fog (convincing yourself everything was perfect before BD). Good job
You sound like you are doing alright. I'm pleased for you
Hey Zues, sounds like you have a really good handle on reality and are in a good place if not a happy place.
It's a bit scary to recognize that life prior to BD was not all roses, but that also means you have the opportunity to make life a lot better in the future! Imagine if your life with STBX was PERFECT. How could it get better than that? So it's only up from here, hopefully!
Hope you have a good week.
Hugs, Lisa
Just left my attorneys office. Drew up a legal separation that I will serve Thursday.
It's about me standing up for my needs and setting boundaries. Attorney said there are 3 parts of a split: children, money, and assets. For the past 4.5 months I've been a doormat on all 3. 100% of my income still goin to joint account and her not working yet, no place of my own for children or possessions, and as a result limited time with the kids. It's clear that this is my fault. I can't expect her to say 'this isn't fair to you, sorry I've taken advantage, let me get my crap together and help make this right'. Not going to happen. So I have to set a fair boundary and stick to it.
We have been communicating via email for anything more serious than the weather, so I am preparing an email to send today to let her know that I have he sep. drawn up. Both my DB coach and attorney gave me verbiage on how to make it sound collaberative vs me bulldozing her. I will do my best.
Bottom line, I know it needs to be done but it is both scary and sad. Scary because I've been a habitual conflict avoider and this is serious conflict. No clue how she'll react. She's been amicable up until now but as my IC said, she has also gotten everything she could want, when I take what I need we'll learn the truth about how amicable things will be. And sad, because it is a significant milestone in our dissolution. And I have to be the one that does it to protect myself.
My attorney said this will probably snap her into reality and force some action one way or another, either she'll have second thoughts or we'll get going on the D pretty quickly. Not what I want, but I realize sacrificing my standard of living and bein paralyzed in fear is not going to bring her back. Becoming the best man I can be on my own is the only option.
I will tell the board since I can't tell her. I loved her, and wanted to be by her side until one of us had to move on from this life. She was first in all my thoughts and I gave her my heart. I tried everyday to be a great guy because I felt she deserved a great guy in her life, it was my number one motivator. I give her my blessing to join the ranks of women who feel they deserve better. Good luck to her.
Zeus you're doing good. Respect starts within and you are clearly making good progress on that.
Just hit send on the email. Highlights:
-I've drawn up a legal separation dated today, will be bringing it over on Thursday to have it signed and acknowledged.
-I am looking for a place of my own
-It is time to separate finances
-I'll continue to provide 100% of my income through November to allow her some time to prepare
-Proposal about holiday schedules for this year (she can come with children to Thanksgiving, she could have the children for Xmas)
-FYI about a small expenditure I had to make for clothes for my new job
I am sick to my stomach right now. I might throw up. My attitude isn't the issue. I did what I had to do. My feelings, however, are that I am heartbroken and shaking right now with empathy for how she will likely feel, how tough her road will be, and scared of how she might react and how this will play out.
I pray I did this right. But I talked for weeks with two counselors, my attorney, my psychiatrist, both my parents, and have prayed at length. At the end of the day I have to act and cannot live life afraid of mistakes.
Nonetheless, a very, very, very hard moment in my life.
I'm so sorry. That's a step I can't bring myself to take. You had to be very brave to do that and you were. Sending some strength and a load of compassion.
Sorry, Zues.
It's really rough for you right now. You are being very brave indeed.
--(G)GGG
Zues, this is a very important step you are taking and you know you have to do it. It is an important step for both of you to be able to get your selves together. Hopefully she will be able to see it as you being wise and strong rather than getting upset and acting out.
I think you made an excellent decision to no longer live in this weird limbo. Not that your relationship situation has to change that much, but your living situation has been horrible and that is not good for your mental, emotional or physical state. It will be nice to have a place of your own and for your W to take responsibility for herself.
Kudos to you for taking this brave step. I hope you feel better about it soon.
Hugs, Lisa
Zues, my H is about to move out. Although it's not a legal doc, we have a S agreement that covers the length of the S, what happens at the end, finances, shared parenting, and some other areas. We have already agreed how to handle Thanksgiving. It was important to me to put that in place. I think you are doing the right thing.
You did good.
You have to stand up for yourself. Its the right thing to do and as long as your assertive rather than aggressive then it breeds confidence and respect
Bumping to say thank you all for the support and to keep it coming. It's that mind of day. I don't mind being an attention sponge. Seriously, it helps to know that I only did what I had too and a panel of experts agree.
I figured out why I'm so timid with conflict. I feel like I'm a big strong giant and I could easily hurt someone if I lost my temper. The fact is that I am an extremely successful person in competition. I play world class pool (and very high level poker, chess, cribbage, backgammon, etc). In my sales career the most successful sales people I've worked with have told me I'm the best they've ever worked with, and I've backed that up with a dominant track record. I've been given some gifts and with it an intensity level/focus/desire that I've only seen matched once or twice in my lifetime.
Point is, I'm used to running the world over. So in my personal relationships I try very, very hard not to do that. For example, my STBX was a SAHM and felt vulnerable because she didn't contribute financially, she felt like she didn't have the right to vote on financial priorities and rarely spoke up. My move was to deposit all the money into a joint account and leave her in charge of the finances entirely.
This type of thinking was flawed. It separated us so I worked and competed. She raised children and ran the household. I meant it to be generous and allow her to have what she wanted. But it deprived her of a partner to contribute. I was afraid of being too assertive, and as a result burdened her with more responsibility than she wanted. All because I wanted her to feel included, and to avoid just running her over.
I've learned that the opposite of controlling isn't being a rug, but to be collaberative. Going forward I am going to use my gifts to meet my needs, but to do so wih consideration for the needs of others and open to input. It's funny. I see myself as a leader, she may see me as a wimp. I'm going to allow myself to shine. Maybe she will see the true man I am at some point and grow to respect and admire that. Maybe not. But I'm no longer going to diminish myself and my gifts for fear I'll make others feel inferior or offended.
Tonight, however, I will use my gifts to curl up in a ball and suck my thumb
Sometimes we just need to do what we need to do.
My bd date I call feb 1. I still get that retch feeling from time to time. On sat I had a really bad day! I sobbed and whined about how it's not fair I can't just behave like a spoiled brat!
This week happy again, but Mondays are always an upswing for me.
Terror and empowerment!
My STBX replied to my email. She asked about the amount of payment I intended to provide in December. She expressed concerns about her ability to provide for the children in December and give them a happy holiday. She used the word 'frankly' twice, the phrase 'I need to know what's expected of me' twice, and mentioned that the email had 'hit her hard'.
First off, you all know 'hitting her hard' was the last thing I wanted to do. But what I'm excited about is that it didn't start world war three. At least not yet! Just like the books say, I allowed fearing the worst to scare me into inaction. The reity is that I am only taking what is fair. A home for myself where I can have my children. As a very successful professional that isn't excessive.
So now the wheels are TURNING. Looking for places to live. Gettin insurance quotes to propose a budget to my attorney, and a list of documents (bank statements and tax returns, etc) to get an idea of what a support payment should look like. Seperating cell phone plans. And tying up a few loose ends before startin my new job Monday. Oh...did I mention its commission sales, that my support payments will probably equate to y base pay and my only personal income will be the commission I will be paid in a new gig? Scary! Except for the fact that I know the business and have a proven track record of being the best. I will not allow myself to fail!
So while there is quite a bit coming at me, I feel 100% up to taking it all on and succeeding. I have a clear picture of where I want to be in 3, 6, 12, and 24 months with regards to career and finances. I want to be financial stable with some reserves, thrive in my new job, be in good physical shape, continue to dominate in the regional pool scene for extra income, be a better dad than ever, and spend time living passionately with my friends doing what I love, and continuing to grow into a healthier man. That will keep me busy! At some point as I achieve those goals I can make room in my life for a romantic R. But In addition to waiting for the D to finalize and some time to pass to ensure im not walking away from my M too soon, I want to succeed independently first so I know I am in a healthy spot and not looking to have someone else be responsible for me or my happiness. Again, nothing but time, the sweet gift of time.
Having all of these hurdles swirling around in my head had been overwhelmingly scary, but now that I'm in action I see there isn't any one of them that will stop me. So from scared to empowered and excited to have a mission and purpose to start driving forward again.
Oh, and finished No More Mr Nice Guy. Some very good stuff. Not all applied to me, but enough did I felt it was a tremendous aid. I'd recommend it to everyone here, because as an LBS I think we all fall into nice guy mode. And that doesn't work! Book report later. Have a great day and thank you all!
I'd definitely agree with you regarding NMMNG. It highlighted that by being weak and appeasing I sacrificed the respect she had for me and so she just felt more pressure.
A real eye opener.
Useful for future R but not sure what it means now.
Zues126, I'm very impressed with what you did. From the outside, it often seems like the obvious step to take, but from the inside, it's almost impossible to execute. I dwell on much smaller stuff, hoping that my wife will come back if I don't contribute to the separation process. I can't wait to see how things progress for you. I'm curious about the December money thing. It's probably up to a lawyer to advise you on this, but you should provide only what is fair. She's made a decision that she's leaving, she has to bear the consequences.
PS: You're funny. Keep it up.
Maybell- way to step up and be a LEADER! Gratitude! Yes!
1. I have three AMAZING CHILDREN that bring joy into my life.
2. I have GROWN AS A FATHER and am able to FEEL the joy they bring into my life!
3. I have been blessed with gifts that have allowed me to be very successful in a CAREER that challenges and rewards me.
4. I have a super SUPPORT group consisting of my parents, some very good friends, my DB coach, IC, and ALL OF YOU!
5. I have GROWN AS A PERSON and feel more and more able to enjoy the fulfilling life I've been given.
6. I have combined my talent with hard, hard, hard work to become a CHAMPION pool player and earn money while winning tournaments and celebrating my gifts.
7. I am taking control of my finances and getting a NEW APARTMENT on 12/1. I can turn it into a bit of a man lair, have my children over, and feel at home. Did I mention their rec room has a pool table? Don't laugh! This is a HUGE win
8. I have the time to work on myself further and GAL. I am going to a cheesy movie tonight, but going with 3 good pool playing friends.
9. My parents understand what I'm going through and are HELPING me a bit with finances short term while I get back on my feet.
10. My STBX and I aren't at war and both have similar goals in terms of arrangements and being cooperative.
It's funny, when I was new here I couldn't keep track of each of these threads, who was who. And at first all I saw was 'bad news', i.e. marriages not being saved. Now I feel like I know many of you well, and what I see now is a whole lot of growth, guidance, support, goodwill, and some magic in the air. Forget about the M's for a minute...people are being changed for the better and their future lives are being saved! Let's hope some of those WAS's buy stock before the company goes public (whatever that even means)!!!
Great list and a great point at the end of it. At first glance this place looks like hell, and yes most of us are going through it, but most are taking the opportunity and growing from it. And some of our lucky WAS's do choose to recommit. There are lots of success stories over the years if you look back. I think of DB.com like an emergency room for M's. Most people here are either in the midst of trauma, or they are a nurse/doctor (vets). If you reconcile your M, you probably won't spend much time here anymore.
I'm happy for you for identifying and working on your issues. I pray that you get a chance at 2nd M with your WAW someday, but it's clear you'll be okay if you don't.