Time for a new thread!
Is DB Worth It? Part 4 Starting off a new thread with some positives! (And then I need to get to bed. Finally reaching goal I set months ago-- no evening naps on the couch, and in bed before midnight. Have reached that goal consistently for a week, except for Wed night. Woo hoo!)
Have been solo with D3 pretty consistently since Sunday 3 pm, except for Monday evening and an hour on Wednesday morning. We had a fabulous week, and I feel really blessed to have had the chance to spend such great time with her, I feel proud of myself for getting us out the door to fun places and keeping the house running ok, and feel hope that even though it's hard and heart-breaking to do this on my own, I CAN. I have family and friends who are supportive.
And I am confident, capable and strong.
Yes, you ARE!
Wow. Had such a fabulous week with my D3. And now my thoughts are all over the place. Anger, some acceptance (I mean, it has been 10 months, after all, and I am living my life quite well...), and a whole lotta sadness at the unnecessary tragedy of the situation.
I know that I'm not totally detached, but I think I am a step closer. I saw H a couple of times today-- for about 45 minutes this morning, and another 45 minutes this afternoon. He was super grumpy this morning. I was friendly, neighborly, tested the waters a bit by asking "How are you liking your new job?" and "How was your weekend?" stuff like that. He answered politely. I did not let his grumpy mood, or the fact that he has walled himself off from me affect me.
Same this afternoon. I found myself feeling like I don't have much interest in him, at least the way he is now, so why do I even care if he wants to be married to me?
I know my value as a woman, a mom, a partner, a friend. If he can't see it... HIS LOSS. I certainly don't plan on being single forever.
BUT-- the fact that we are still legally married, and all our $ is still joint, made me go hmmm after reading Maybell's thread. I mean, if I died tomorrow, he would get whatever I have. (Not much, but still...). Given our situation, do I have ANY grounds for asking him whether he is dating?
I feel like, since he is fairly dark to me, all I can do is LRT and get great insight here when co-parenting situations come up. But I'm wondering whether there is anything else I can be DOING wrt our R?? Or do I just keep doing my own thing waiting (NOT just WAITING, but I hope you know what I mean) for him to decide?
too tired to write anything else coherent... but lots of swirling thoughts.
I missed your previous post, but yes, you are strong! And wonderful!
Do you know what you want? I don't mean just your H, but generally? I guess I'm getting at the question of purpose I discussed with my brother this past week. You have a challenging & fulfilling job. You have a D3 (cherish that age, it was probably my favorite with my D, though she's amazing now too). You have your changes and your support crew, and I bet you're pretty darn easy on the eyes, too.
To me, the simple fact of still being legally married entitles me to certain basic information. It entitles me to knowing where my H lives, for example. It entitles me to say I'm not ok with you dating other women.* In my state, if we are legally separated and he has sex with another woman that is legally adultery and I'm entitled to reparation for that. I know it may not be true in every state but it's nice to see some things codified. I get a little confidence from that and so I speak up for it.
To me, you are entitled to know if your legal spouse is dating other women. How and when you ask may vary based on your goals, but it's still basic information to which you are entitled. You've been waiting ten months. Do you want movement? Do you want to give it more time? Do you want information so you can process? Those things will determine how and whether you exercise your rights.
Vossy pointed out to me that my situation has a lot of positives, and since I only feel responsible for my changes to myself and not for any response I'm getting from my H these days, I don't know that I'm necessarily qualified to offer suggestions. So all I want to do is offer my thinking and maybe suggest some ways of approaching your situation that might throw new light on things. I wish I could wave a magic wand over you to make everything ok. I'm wondering these days if you have a clear picture of what getting to ok would look like? Or what it would look like once you got there?
* to me there's a difference between saying I am strongly opposed to your dating and you can't date. Given that one of his obligations to me under the law is that he forsake all others, I don't think it's unreasonable to express my desire that he fulfill his end of the contract. Which is the state's primary interest in marriage, after all, the contract.
Thanks so much Maybell! You are really really good at this. Are you a C? If not, have you thought about doing that?
Do you know what you want? I don't mean just your H, but generally? I guess I'm getting at the question of purpose I discussed with my brother this past week. You have a challenging & fulfilling job. You have a D3 (cherish that age, it was probably my favorite with my D, though she's amazing now too). You have your changes and your support crew, and I bet you're pretty darn easy on the eyes, too.
So interesting... my IC asked me yesterday if I could imagine being with someone where I would feel
cherished. And I haven't used that word before, but that is it! Maybe it was just simply that he couldn't speak my LL, but I did not feel
cherished. I felt like he would take care of me, our finances, do things to "make me happy" (a Sisyphian task since I was depressed and had out-of-control anxiety), but then resent me for having to do those things without the payoff of my "happiness". I've been thinking a lot lately of times when I just didn't feel like we were part of the same team. Maybe I am just focusing on the negatives, but I do recall feeling that way during our M a lot.
So, what do I want? Not in any particular order:
-- I want my feelings to be validated. If I tell someone I feel hurt by what they did or said, I want them to say, "I think I get what you are saying. I'm sorry", not "Oh, come on."
-- I want to be cherished. I want words of affirmation. I want someone to hold my face and look me in the eyes and say, "I love you. You are beautiful, and smart, and I am so lucky to be with you" like they mean it.
-- I want to feel like I am on the same team as my partner. If a problem comes up, we can hold hands and say, "Let's try to solve this together."
You've been waiting ten months. Do you want movement? Do you want to give it more time? Do you want information so you can process? Those things will determine how and whether you exercise your rights.
I think I'm at a confident enough place where I want movement. But at the same time, I can see (and hear from his family) that he is struggling. So, if he is on the fence (like he doesn't actually want this to happen, but still can't see any way out), and I push him... that would probably tip him over the edge. I've been at this long enough that I don't need to do that.
I'm wondering these days if you have a clear picture of what getting to ok would look like? Or what it would look like once you got there?
Ok for me? Or for my M? I'm not totally sure of the question.
I'm not a counselor. I just like people and find them interesting. I feel really privileged when I get to peek inside a person's mask and I pay attention when I get the chance.
I find it interesting that you talk about yourself and your marriage as separate entities. Why would that be? To me, a marriage is the relationship where you get to be your truest self. This is why DBing is about working on yourself. So what is ok for you should be ok for the marriage. The only open question then is whether your H is ready to be ok as well. The marriage isn't its own thing. It's the space you create for both of you to live without your masks.
I guess my question meant, given who your H is and who you are becoming, what would your life be like in a restored marriage? What would the overall feel or atmosphere be? What sorts of things would you do together, and how frequently? What would you be like apart? what would you like to do to support him, and what would it feel like to be your strong self within the marriage? How would his support of you in the new marriage be different from what you described above, given the changes you've made? What might he be like, and would you like that?
Since he just started a very stressful new position it's probably best not to expect too much of him for a while. You wouldn't get good attention from him under the best of circumstances, right? Embarking on what is essentially a new relationship now is not realistic.
I hope this helps...
Interesting discussion about dating. Maybell, I think I understand what you're saying and the reason behind it but let me ask a clarifying question.
I see it as a bottom line but...
Does it mean if you find out he's dating you'll file for D? End of story? (I'm not implying you should or shouldn't)
I think that for me, there is a way to go about a separation that is geared towards figuring out what we want... with the ultimate hope that the M will work out. H and W could even discuss the parameters of the S. For ex: is dating allowed?
In my case, my H still wears his ring (at least in front of me, most of the time), his FB status still says he is married to me, his gmail and Twitter pics are from our honeymoon and Babylon trips-- I took both of the pics (I am not in the pics), and-- maybe most importantly(?), our finances are still all joint-- although he has an individual acct that I don't have access to, and I can't see what he purchases on our shared AMEX acct which he pays for. Not sure if he can see my purchases.
Anyway, in this situation, I feel like him dating without my knowledge feels like betrayal. For us to move forward he would need to come clean, and break off all contact with whoever it was.
But.. I think the chances of us reconciling are slim to none right now. I think he is not moving forward legally b/c he is just too overwhelmed with other things in his life and he trusts that I won't take advantage of his $$.
We are meeting this week to discuss childcare for coming year. Can I ask him why he has taken off his ring?? If so, how would I say that?
^^Babylon=babymoon
darn autocorrect!
Babylon would have been a cool but impractical vacation.
And the only babymoon I know is a freestanding birth center. Interesting choice.
Claire, I don't know if your H will or won't come back or even which of those is the best for you.
What I do know is the more I take my hands off the controls, the more good things open up for me.
Oh, that's good. Thanks for that reminder, labug. I may frame that.
labug-- You are so so right. The river will flow how it flows. The best we can do is keep our eyes wide open for the opportunities that come by, and try to catch them when they do. This summer, I am doing some really exciting work out of town for pretty much the first time ever. I'm super super super excited. The opportunity appeared, it felt like the right time, and I jumped at it.
It's kind of funny-- I am not really religious, but I do think that the universe speaks to us sometimes. Letting go of control means that you will hear the universe when it does reach out.
I find it interesting that you talk about yourself and your marriage as separate entities. Why would that be? To me, a marriage is the relationship where you get to be your truest self. This is why DBing is about working on yourself. So what is ok for you should be ok for the marriage. The only open question then is whether your H is ready to be ok as well. The marriage isn't its own thing. It's the space you create for both of you to live without your masks.
I have some thoughts-- There were times in my M when I did feel like my truest self-- completely safe and able to be totally vulnerable. He saw the dark, scary side of me when I had a major panic/anxiety attack, and held me tight, said he'd always be by my side, etc. Before I became pregnant, he told me he was worried I would have PPD. I said don't worry: you'll be on the lookout for it, and we'll deal with it if or when it comes. But we didn't. I
did start to feel like a separate entity-- that we weren't on the same team. I felt like he went through the motions of supporting me financially, logistically... but not emotionally. When I asked him to think about having another baby, he refused. He said that our D3 had nearly torn us apart, and he couldn't go through that again. It was a completely unilateral decision, and he said he had the right to make that decision. Essentially, he felt that his "no" vote would trump my "yes" vote. There was no mention of going to a MC to help us work through that.
Honestly, it will take a lot for me to get past that. Maybe I'm just stuck and being overly dramatic, but i actually don't know if I could move forward with him unless that was addressed. (I don't mean that he would agree to have another baby-- I would put the chances of that at 0.01%, even if he did want to stay married--but at least to discuss it, with someone to help us).
I guess my question meant, given who your H is and who you are becoming, what would your life be like in a restored marriage? What would the overall feel or atmosphere be? What sorts of things would you do together, and how frequently? What would you be like apart? what would you like to do to support him, and what would it feel like to be your strong self within the marriage? How would his support of you in the new marriage be different from what you described above, given the changes you've made? What might he be like, and would you like that?
this is a great exercise to think about. I think I would certainly be more cognizant of HIS emotional state, and not take his anxiety or stress personally. I was too obsessed with my own anxiety and self-loathing that I took everything he said so personally, and often (always?) escalated things. I would be able to remember my own worth, and would not be constantly looking to him for validation.
I would also make sure to continue to carve out time for myself, and for nurturing friendships and interests outside the marriage. We would do more things apart, but also more quality things together. I would be more action-oriented, instead of waiting for him to take charge all the time. I would be more direct instead of expecting him to read my mind, and then resenting him when I don't. I would try my very best to speak his love language. I would step away if I felt he was pushing my buttons and I was losing my cool. We would take advantage of the ease of having just one 4 yo child to leave with grandparents, and spend more time away together.
Thanks for pushing me to think this through.
Your ideal marriage sounds a lot like my ideal marriage.
My H had said pretty clearly that he was happy with two kids and I was ready to go along with that, but then I fell pregnant with #3... and he and I both know how that happened. When we had our big talk the day after BD#1, he asked me if I had done that on purpose. I hadn't, truly. I'd told him at the time that I hadn't. I told him again that I hadn't. (my 2nd child was only a year old at the time I got pregnant with #3, it was one of those things that fell through the cracks...) I still honestly don't know if he truly believes me. Should my yes vote have counted more than his no vote? No. But it's one of those unresolvable problems that comprises 60% of marital conflicts. Would we trade S6 for anything in the world? Absolutely not. He's a joy and a blessing, especially to his big brother. But there you go. Somebody ended up unhappy and failed to deal with it constructively. Of course H adores S6 too. But that little thing nags at the back of his mind.
Yes, I think what makes me stand is that I also remember being my truest self with him. One of the things that hurt the worst was thinking he didn't like my truest self, but I've come to realize, replaying some of the things he said in the last year, that he had stopped seeing me at all and was just thinking of me as somebody for whom I can find no evidence of having been (for example, he called me a hoarder when I just two years ago went through a herculean effort of divesting us of literally half our stuff). And of course the further apart we drifted the less like my truest self I was.
Well, as you say, the river will flow and we must flow with it.
Goshdarnitall, I could have written those last three paragraphs word for word, Claire. I feel you on the anxiety - it starts to take over very easily, and it's so easy to get wrapped up in it. One of my H.'s issues with me was that he said that he's felt like my therapist and assistant because of it and like I haven't focused on his emotional needs as a result. I can certainly see how he'd feel that way, and I'd love to be able to go back and work on pretty much everything you've mentioned.
In general, I think this is a really good exercise (it's one I've been working through recently too). You seem to have a clear sense of how you'd like things to look, which is good. One thing I'd suggest is considering how some of your points about talking about a baby would fit into your vision of how your life would be. It seems like you'd be more okay with not having another baby IF you were able to talk about the idea and work through it, rather than it being a unilateral decision. What do you think this might tell you about things like how communication and decision making would look if you were working things out?
I'm spinning a bit today, guys. Could use some feedback.
H and I are meeting tonight to discuss childcare plans for next year. He also wants to discuss the parenting plan our mediator drafted.
One sticking point during mediation has been that he doesn't think we need to "address all the minutiae". We can just agree to decide things respectfully as they come up.
But everyone I've talked to (even a friend who is still actually friends with her ex) has told me that we need to have a default plan in place, just in case we disagree on something.
I'm terrified that I'm going to backslide so much and lose my cool. We've never been able to solve conflicts very well, and we certainly haven't done any work on that. I'm scared I will lose it and say something like, "Is this what you really want?? Why? How could you just up and walk away on me and never look back?"
Despite all the work I'm doing to become a healthier, happier person, and change the things about me that were obstacles in our M, he still shows zero interest in that.
I'm debating whether to just press him on it, even though I'm guessing that would push him to say he's ready for D. Because if he really truly believes, after 10 months, that there is still no chance, then I think it's time for me to drop the rope.
Can't flesh these thoughts out more right now-- babysitter is on vacation so I am with D3 all day, and we are headed to the playground.
Clearly I'm not detached because I have such a knot in my stomach right now. I hate this so much. I hate him for being so weak and stubborn. I'd be willing to work so hard to help us have a happy life together. And he thinks so little of me that he would rather throw it all away.
Also had another thought-- it seems like there is a bit of a pattern-- there seem to be a few men on the boards who have been DBing consistently... and have had success with their WAW's warming up or even expressing interest in reconciling.
How many WAH's come back? Do any vets have any informal observations about that?
Does this say something about how gender plays a role in the way we approach relationships? I wonder.
I made an appointment to speak with a coach... and part of me is wondering if I will leave those sessions with the courage to finally drop the rope for good.
I deserve so much more than this.
First off, you don't know that he thinks so little of you. You don't actually know WHAT he's thinking because you haven't gotten an update recently. So don't assume that what you think he thinks is what he thinks.
With regards to the spinning... I got a huge knot in my stomach today because the bank balance looked different than what I expected. H didn't respond promptly when I texted him. It was all I could do not to panic. When he did respond, he spent 8 text messages explaining what I was seeing and checking in to see why I was concerned. So I think sometimes this business stuff hits us in the chinks in our armor. And, understandably, we have trust issues. I mean, we've been abandoned by the people we expected to care for us for the rest of our lives. Childcare is a huge chink in your armor. So give yourself a break for having an emotional response to an emotional topic.
While I was making lunch for my kids today I imagined H sitting in the IC office saying "It's like she doesn't trust me!" and IC saying calmly, "Why do you think that might be?" It made me feel better to know that that huge emotional response was ALSO rational.
So maybe a way to give yourself a crutch for getting through this meeting in a businesslike fashion so he can see your changes would be to write him a letter screaming all the stuff you wish you could say to his face, and then putting it somewhere near you, as though you were going to give it to him. Except then don't. You'll know that stuff has all been expressed and COULD be delivered but that you are exercising your changes by keeping it to yourself.
I also have been known to write notes of encouragement to myself on my wrists and hands so I can refer to them in weak moments. D11 gave me a worry stone with the word "Wisdom" printed on it. I think she meant me to use it for her, but it's all purpose.
When you're out with your little girl pick out a pretty stone together and tell her you want to keep it to remind you of her when you're not together. You're doing a lot of this for her, right?
I agree that the minutiae should be dealt with in the agreement. He has a track record and so do you and you have a lot of years ahead of you both in this endeavor. I would stick to your guns and say that you'd prefer to have everything spelt out to keep the co-parenting relationship cooperative and prevent misunderstandings. This is a business transaction, you don't have an obligation to bend further than is in your interest.
You are going to be great, Claire. Really. Keep your eye on the prize. You'll be great.
keep us posted!!
When if ever can I ask him what he thinks?! If he said something like, I'm not sure. .. in the bottom of my heart I don't want this to happen but I still have trouble seeing a way forward" I am willing to be patient. But if I'm just sitting around waiting for him to say he's ready for D, then wtf am I doing?
Do I have a right to ask for access to all checking and CC accounts? Do I wait for mediator for that? If he is spending marital money on dating, do I have rights wrt that?
I guess these are questions for my L and coach.
Oh man. I need to breathe.
Claire,
You sound like you are at a fork. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to your questions. Just a thought.....can you envision a rebuilt R with you h the way he is now? It sounds like you have done a great deal of work and addressed some things that were preventing you from fully embracing life in general-not just issues in your m.
I know your h started a new position an it sounds like he is a bit overwhelmed at the time being. However, I do understand your feelings of wondering if you are just waiting for him to D. I don't know. Think about what your instincts are really saying to you.
I'm sorry that probably wasn't much help. Hang in there! You are doing really well:-)
Hi Claire, I also wonder the same thing. It seems that some of the guys on here have had luck with being persistent and waiting for the woman to come back around. But what about us ladies? Will my H ever wake up from his stubborn assertion that he doesn't love me and realize he truly does?
I only have one reason to say that it can happen, and that is it happened to me with my previous ex. He was cheating, he was requesting space, he wanted to break up. And when we finally did, he came back begging as soon as I moved on. He pushed me away with all his strength and then he tried for years to get me back.
So I know it can happen. I just don't know if it will happen to me again this time with my WAH.
Good luck! Sorry about that knot in your stomach.
Hugs, Lisa B
Claire, you've been DB longer but I wonder, too, wtf I'm doing if he's dead set on D. And the sheer amount of money my h is spending on "life" is alarming. Isn't that "squandering marital assets?" I don't know and I haven't talked to a L yet.
What do you really want? Are you willing to keep DB on the off chance that it'll work? I look at signatures of those piecing or reconciled and see that 2 years isn't unheard of as far as a time commitment... Maybe more. Do you have that in you? These are questions I need to ask myself too, though my h seems to be on the "the sooner the better so I can move on with my life" path which just adds to my anxiety.
You are doing a really good job of asking the right questions. Only you can answer the critical ones though.
(((Hugs))), Claire.
UGH.
Before I forget how tonight's meeting went, some highlights:
1. Dealt with several childcare/parenting schedule things and I stayed calm the whole time. There was one issue on which we disagreed; I held firm, tried to validate, although probably did a crappy job, to be honest. "I hear your concern..." I said, "I'm sorry you feel that way". He said, "I'm sorry YOU feel that way," in an "I'm disappointed in you" kind of way.
2. THEN. I decided to ask him why he's not wearing his ring. He said he wears it sometimes. I asked if he's dating. He is. I asked if that was why he left, he said no.
3. He said, "Intellectually, there are so many reasons to stay married. It's the "smart" thing to do. But the emotion just isn't there. I don't want to hurt you, but I just don't see a married future for us."
4. I guess I broke cardinal DB rules. "I understand that you feel that way. And I've been reading a lot about this kind of situation-- the way we feel-- 'i care about you, but don't love you,' is not unique, and I've read many stories of people who have been able to rebuild their relationships and fall in love again. It won't just happen if you wait around for it, but there are actually things you can DO, actions people can take to work towards that." He sort of nodded, but I'm not at all confident he was able to hear that.
5. He said he respects me so much more now than he ever did before.
6. I said I hope he was happy==and that he didn't seem happy whenever I saw him. He said I make him uncomfortable. I pressed him ("Can you tell me what I"m doing that's making you uncomfortable?" At first, he said he couldn't explain it (hello, communication problems that are not about me!!), But eventually said that all my validation, especially about our D3 feels like too much! He said he gets what I am doing and why, but it felt unnecessary. He loves and cherishes the time he spends with her. He doesn't need empathy.
There was a bunch more but I'm so drained right now.
Can I please just give his number to MWD and have her call him and knock some sense into him??
There is so much I want to say to him, but can't. I want to say, "It's interesting that, even though you respect me, and think that staying married is the best thing to do, you are completely unwilling to try to work on changing the things that made us unhappy in the marriage. That says so much more about you than it does about me. I don't plan on being single forever, and I know that my next relationship will be happy. How do I know that? I know what I am working on, and I also now have some tools and strategies for making a relationship work. What changes are you making that will help you in your next R? What will you tell your D3 when she asks you why you left her awesome, beautiful, smart, capable, confident mommy?"
He's never even really articulated, besides my anxiety and depression, his reasons for leaving. Just that "I don't love you anymore, I'm not happy, and I've been unhappy for a while."
So, that's that, it seems. I just bought three sessions with Chuck which seem like they will go to waste. But maybe he will have suggestions for dealing with settlement and mediation.
At the end of the day, I'm glad I said those things. I needed to say them and hear from him where he is at. What a waste this all is.
Onwards.
I don't seem to get a lot of traffic on my thread (but boy, the feedback I do get is so freaking amazing, thank you!!!)... but I was hoping someone might take a look at this email I drafted (in a very emotional state) and let me know how wildly crazy it would be to send it:
------------------------------
Dear H,
You expressed a concern that I might be hurt by you saying that you respect me more now than ever.
That doesn't hurt me. I'm actually quite glad to hear it.
The person I was for most of our relationship is not the person I want to be, and is not the person I am meant to be, and is not the person I AM now, and will continue to be.
Would you have been attracted to this me? I have no idea. Would this new me have been attracted to you? I'm not sure.
I don't feel the need anymore to convince you that I am worth fighting for. I know that I am. And you know me-- I'm nothing if not a thorough researcher. I can name at least 5 resources that are widely respected that we could use to get support to rebuild our relationship, and all say essentially the same thing: Love can grow; and married couples can improve their communication and conflict resolution skills. This is researched-based, not an abstract or 'gut' belief). Carol Dweck's book Mindset has a lot to say about your belief that you're simply out of love with me and there is no hope those feelings would ever change. (For the record, it's fair to say that my feelings for you have changed, too. There is no way for me to know for sure whether I could fall in love with you again. It seems the only difference between us is that I'm willing to try.
Neither of our parents figured it out-- yours quit pretty early on, and mine stayed unhappily married. I don't want either of those. In an ideal world there would be some way to share with you the things I've read and heard that have shifted my outlook on relationships and life. But if you have a fixed mindset about it, and have closed yourself to any possibility, or are unwilling to remember the reasons why you fell in love with me in the first place, that is out of my control and I have to let go.
It was so wrong of me to not take responsibility for my mental health issues. I will always wonder whether things would have turned out differently if I had been able to deal with it earlier. But I can't change the past. I can only control my actions from this day forward.
The only reasons you really gave me for giving up on our marriage were my anxiety and depression. I imagine there were others. If you are unwilling to work towards rebuilding our relationship, I hope at some point you'd be willing to share with me what those other reasons are. I would like to have that feedback so that I can be sure to not fall into the same patterns again. What would your ideal relationship look like? What would it have looked like to you if we had been happier? How would we have acted differently, or what would we have done differently? How would you have been different? How might we have dealt with some of our problems differently? (Or, do you believe that our problems wouldn't exist in a happy relationship?)
I don't need the answers to those questions. But they are questions I have been asking myself and have found some surprising answers.
-------------------------
Commence the 2x4's
I really like your letter/email, but regardless of that, I think you shouldn't send it now, or even tomorrow necessarily.
Wait at least a day or two before you send it, IF you send it.
With that said, what are your reasons for sending it? Are you sending this email because you are dropping the rope? Are you done? Or are you hoping this is going to spark some turnaround in him? Are you really hoping for those answers JUST to move forward, or for some other reason?
I think it is well written, articulate, clear and not pushy or whiney, but I also hope it matches your intentions.
I wish I could send a similar email to my STBXW. And the fact that there's a W projecting those same feelings, commitments, goodwill, etc, towards her H. That is inspiring to me and I appreciate you on behalf of your H even if he never does.
I hope this doesn't come across wrong, I'm emotional tonight. I hope to someday achieve this type of communication and connection with my W. Congratulations on becoming very close to the W only a fool would leave.
That all said, probably not a good thing to send without DB Coach or lots of Vet support. Seems likely to come across as needy. You needing him to understand you, you needing him to change, you needing him to give you a temperature check. And may come across that you'll be there as a plan B. I can't see this snapping him out of his fog. Only he can do that, and my understanding is the best chance of that is if plan B goes away and he realizes these things for himself. So it looks like a good therapeutic letter to write for yourself.
Take care.
Claire, I'm sorry this evening was disappointing. I hope you feel really proud of how you handled yourself. It sounds like you were on top of things beautifully -- and even got a compliment from your H.
It also sounds like perhaps his issues are more his than yours. He sounds like he's in need of IC to help him articulate his feelings better, and to process his options more productively. This doesn't sound like it's all you.
So while I really like that letter, I think it's accurate and straightforward and dispassionate, I don't think it will move him. It would move us on the boards because we're the choir. You're looking to move the guy who thinks church isn't for him. I think his response to it is more likely to push you closer to divorce than him closer to reconciliation.
Is this what you want?
It's ok if it is. You have to live fully.
But if it's not... To me, he gave you a bit of information you can use. He wants a lighter touch, maybe. I'm not sure. I see your sitch through the lens of mine a lot (why should that be??)
I feel petty complaining about an inaccurate comment on my hair on my thread when you were going through this over here, and I'm sorry for that. I didn't mean to be insensitive.
Whatever you decide to do you will be awesome, Claire, and your daughter is lucky to have such a great self-aware mom and a dad who really loves her.
Thank you for the compassionate feedback. I'm talking to a coach on Saturday, and then I'll be out of town for almost a whole week after that. So, a cooling off period sounds like the right call.
Maybe just maybe I planted a tiny seed. As 25yrs has so wisely told me, I need to be patient and have consistent change.
I will be ok without him (heck, I HAVE been ok without him for almost a year!), I will eventually feel ready to meet someone new, and I WILL meet someone new (and I will finally go into dating feeling like I AM A CATCH, not that I hope I'm lucky enough that someone will like me.
I would NOT want him as he currently is or was. He would have to be willing to do a lot of work on his own and with me for reconciliation to even be a possibility.
I am deeply bruised, but not broken. Thanks for sticking with me.
Re-reading this thread as I avoid sleep (another story), and realized that I take a lot without articulating clearly enough how grateful I am to those who have taken time of their busy lives to read my story and offer me such helpful advice and support.
This forum has been a tremendous lifeline to me and I feel so lucky to have found it.
Thank you all very much.
Hi Claire,
I just wanted to chime in and say I admire how you handled that meeting, sounds like you did really well validating and keeping your cool. And I completely get where you are coming from! My WAH has the same statement, basically that there is nothing really wrong with our relationship EXCEPT that he doesn't love me like that...
What can you do? Nothing you say will make him realize he could love you again and that you could work together on fixing the problems that exist. He has to realize that he wants to on his own. Will he ever? What can you do to make it happen? I wish I knew! That is my problem exactly!
And I agree with the others that you should wait on sending the email.
We all have your back.
Hugs, Lisa B
Hi Claire,
I was struck by the question you posed earlier in your thread re success rates with WAH vs WAW. There are a few of us ladies around at the moment that seem to have such similar stories and I too have wondered if we have lower odds.
As for your letter: I think your letter it is very clear and articulate (very direct) and I can certainly relate to the points you are making as the LBS. The question is - how will he react? My sense is that it may seem too critical and cause him to be defensive or withdraw more. Caveat being - I've not followed all parts of your story.
Funny - my IC suggested I draft a similar letter just today (though we're not sure if I will ever send it). I've been thinking about the approach I will take and I think I will try to write about the things I plan to bring to the next relationship and weave in the evidence/research from my reading and therapy sessions as I go. That way I can get the points across but not seem to be accusing him of anything. Actually I am looking forward to writing it as a way of just pulling everything together.
I had a funny epiphany today: a while back, our D3 received a bike that had to be put together. For some reason we couldn't get it to assemble correctly. It sat in the corner of our small bedroom for a long time. My H kept asking me to fix it. I kept forget to do it. He resented that so much (it was near his side of the bed and he kept tripping on it). I resented the fact that he wouldn't take a role in helping me fix it. He kept saying, if you are not going to fix it let's just throw it away.
We had a lot of conflict over that stupid bike. And then, after a big argument, we did throw it away.
It feels like a silly but powerful metaphor about our M to me. Surely it was fixable but for all kinds of reasons we couldn't work together to fix it. He was adamant that the only solution was to get rid of it without putting in any effort himself to try to fix it.
I'm not sure what made me think of that this morning. But it was definitely one of those moments where I felt like we weren't on the same team.
Somewhere I read that people often experience a moment like that, that stands in for their life as it has existed to that point. And then, when you do, your path becomes really clear.
I wish you had a different epiphany.
Thanks, Maybell. I've realized that what I'm so heartbroken over is not necessarily the loss of HIM-- I mean, I don't believe in soul mates or anything, and I don't believe he is the perfect person for me. But I am so sad about this because I do believe that I am able to become a better partner for him, and in theory he could become a better partner for me, and that we could have a happy, loving life together. I am heartbroken for my daughter that he is so unwilling to entertain that possibility. And I am so sad that I chose to be with someone who has such a fixed mindset about himself and relationships, and values marriage so little that he is not willing to do ANYTHING to try to find love for me again.
I understand your sadness. I have that worry myself, that I made that kind of choice when I married my husband.
I guess the one thing I could say in comfort is, you never know what the future holds. Except that you've learned so much from this experience that whatever it is you are bound to be your best.
I don't mean that to sound final... I really hope it doesn't. Because I don't feel that it is.
When if ever can I ask him what he thinks?! If he said something like, I'm not sure. .. in the bottom of my heart I don't want this to happen but I still have trouble seeing a way forward" I am willing to be patient. But if I'm just sitting around waiting for him to say he's ready for D, then wtf am I doing?
Do I have a right to ask for access to all checking and CC accounts? Do I wait for mediator for that? If he is spending marital money on dating, do I have rights wrt that?
I guess these are questions for my L and coach.
Oh man. I need to breathe.
New to your thread and from what I have read so far, you are showing remarkable strength and patience.
If you haven't already, you could discuss with your L about getting a separation agreement that would include how to deal with finances. IMO, you do have the option to set healthy boundaries while still keeping the way back smooth.
Thanks, Anders.
Yes, I've been holding off on dealing with the finances, because it was not in my best interest to split $. But now that may have changed.
Sleep deprivation put me on a bit of a rant on Maybell's thread, which I will continue here:
Isn't it somewhat irresponsible for IC and L to NOT share the myriad pro-marriage resources that are out there?! At least for couples they see have no issues that would definitely preclude that? (No abuse, for ex, and in my case no infidelity, and clear TEMPORARY and SOLVABLE issues)
I mean, how does our mediator or his IC not even ASK if we have tried x,y, or z (Retrouvaille, Divorce Remedy, 5LL, John Gotman!?) How do they not say, "I am going to work with you on this to the best of my ability, but I urge you strongly to FIRST try... because even when both parties are agreeable, this is costly and difficult, especially when there are children involved.
UGH.
I so hear you on that one. I find my self thinking "Does Google work the same for him as it does for me?" - because when I search on there - every result seems to scream "Don't do it"!
I dunno- I guess people have an almost unlimited ability to believe what they want to.....until reality intrudes.
So far, I think I'm the only one who has had to field the heartwrenching comments and questions from D6 (When are we going to see Daddy?, Mommy - those are pretty shoes, Daddy should take you dancing!,etc.). H always takes them to play - so they don't have any quiet down time with him - but he won't be able to dodge forever.
I have some very questionable punctuation in this post....
I've actually asked my H to share with me the resources he has found that have resonated with him and helped him make his decisions, because "It would be helpful for me to read a different perspective". Shockingly, he didn't respond.
By the time we got to the point that it became clear he was going to leave, I was frantically reading ALL those resources you mentioned above and trying to share what I was learning with him. The morning he wrote me the letter asking for separation, I woke up about an hour before him. He asked what I was reading and it was one of those and he groaned. I knew then he was done.
He read the affair book after BD#1, and he read half of a midlife book which "didn't resonate" with him. He attended MC without really engaging. That was it. Our fights were almost always me angry with him for not engaging in the materials. He's just not ever going to do it. He certainly would never ask Google to solve his personal problems.
I had ringside seats for two friends' divorces a couple of years ago. It was really interesting how different they were. One was the wife initiating the divorce because her H's mental health issues had become oppressive to her and her two boys. Truly. I say this as a woman struggling to save my marriage. She was not wrong to take that path. But she took it thoughtfully, employed about six different counselors for herself, her husband, and her two boys, and took two years to come to the decision. When she came to the decision she was completely comfortable with it and her life was already in process. She's SO happy now.
The other was a woman who had been fighting her husband's roving eye for years, who had bent over backwards to accommodate his needs, and then one day he casually came home and said "I talked to HR today and they said if we divorce I can keep you on the health plan till you're employed." Yeah, that's how she heard he wanted to end the marriage. It took them two years to divorce too because he couldn't seem to engage the mediation straightforwardly. By the time they got to the end she was so done with him she couldn't stand the sight of him. And so far as I can tell... she's happy now too.
I also had a friend who is a mediator. She's also the mom of four kids in a highly cooperative marriage.
Her job is to get the divorce done. It's not her business to counsel the couple to stay together. They hire her to do a specific job and she does it. If it gets the slightest bit contentious, she refers them to adversarial attorneys and that's the end of her involvement.
I don't want to go through a divorce. But if I have to BE divorced, I will be OK. That's the most I can say right now, I think.
I'm super nerdy by nature (not to be confused with that late 80s/early 90s band Naughty by Nature) and read everything. Again, this is just my option but MC and IC are only worthwhile if the parties are honest, willing to do the work, and of course if the C is decent. If someone is unwilling to work on things, doesn't want the marriage to work, and has decided they are done, then no suggestions of *ways to work things out* will have any effect on the WAS. The reality is most Ms can be saved, but we live in an instant gratification, grass is always greener culture. Many folks want what they perceive as easiest. That's why MC is a very bad idea and a complete waste of money in those circumstances. IC? Many times the C is trying to make sure you aren't a threat to anyone or yourself. I know several C's and some of them don't exactly have their caca together IRL:-)
It's very difficult to accept that a person has chosen to simply WA from their spouse and sometimes their kids. However, as a very wise vet said on one of my threads, M and kids is not for the weak or faint of heart. My parents were married 50 years until my father's death last year. My h's parents have been married for 47. I had no idea D would ever be an option. However, my h has decided that all marriges are miserable although in sure he will m again. He was married for a year after dating someone 5 years. She left him for OM. I think my very windy point is that regardless of what people say or do, you never truly know everything they think. I have no idea if that made sense:-)
GB, it makes perfect sense and I agree.
Staying and working on the marriage in most cases is the HARDER option. I see that as a huge problem. Getting a divorce, moving on, the possibility of dating or being together forever with OM/W, all seem easier to the WAS than working on the existing marriage. I wish I could say I believe the reason is because they've lost all hope. I actually think it's because hard work is HARD and having to dig deep, realize someone else isn't 100% at fault for your misery and owning up to your own faults is EASY to run away from. I think there are often things that the WAS doesn't even mention that fuel their desire to WA and the LBS continues to only know half the truth. It's painful and futile sometimes.
My H found ooodles of information about why getting a D is the right way to go and somehow found articles stating that everyone ends up happier in the end. He's found friends who are VERY pro divorce and surrounded himself with people who say, "oh, your life will be so much better after a D". Somehow I only find the opposite information. It just goes to show you we see what we want to see. The easy road is rarely the better road, I've discovered. I guess it says a lot about a person who dives into a divorce head first because it's EASIER.
I also read ALL the resources (big surprise, right). As you've probably already guessed, given than he's working from the playbook that everyone else's H. seemed to get, H. read none and didn't put much effort into MC other than showing up and talking occasionally but not really offering much of anything useful or constructive.
I went into MC hoping for someone whose focus would help to save the marriage. Our counselor's goal was to help us do what was best for us, whether that meant working on the marriage or splitting up, and I was wary of that. I still wish things hadn't gone the way that they had, but having some space to really see how H. was and how things were in our marriage has been invaluable in figuring out what I want and need but also who I am.
Part of me still wishes we'd been offered more resources, or even that he'd pushed harder. But I'm pretty aware that it was unlikely to do any good - H. wasn't invested or engaged, and he wasn't ready to hear anything from anyone, even a third party. I'm still not sure why he even agreed to go, but I suspect it was to give the illusion that he'd tried, or to make himself feel like he'd done what he could, or something like that. That's the rub, there - all the resources in the world - books or articles or awesome counselors - can make them see what they don't want to or can't see.
Georgiabelle, I like your point about instant gratification. When I was in MC and talking about my concerns about H. going home to visit, one things I said was a general comment about how I felt like not coming back or just walking away was appealing to H. because it was the easier option. He argued that it wasn't because it would be emotional, but in the end it was certainly easier than actually doing any work for him. I think our spouses have a vision of what their life will be like once they get away. Maybe it will be as green and lush and wonderful as they think. But my suspicion is that they usually just stay who they are and that nothing much will really change.
I just want to say that, if I could, I would upvote everyone tonight. You're all speaking my language, and it's such a relief - particularly after the last few days - to be able to connect with people who understand what this is like and who offer insightful and thought provoking ideas.
"The easy road is rarely the better road, I've discovered."
Cheers to that, and cheers to everyone out there who's staying on the hard road!
Such interesting trains of thought on these boards today.
So tragic that there are so many of us in the same situation.
I highly recommend Carol Dweck's "Mindset." The only way my H's decision makes sense is that he simply has a "fixed mindset". Perhaps he believes that if the relationship was 'right', then it wouldn't take so much work. The fact that there are such problems means that it's just not right (not that, you know, you can actually work to fix those problems). And perhaps he believes that he doesn't really have the capacity to change.
I did get some interesting feedback last night. He basically admitted that he didn't have much respect for me during our M. Hunh. No wonder why I didn't feel very respected by him! He's also been working on being a better listener, because it's a skill he needs at work. Ok then. So, perhaps my complaints about never feeling 'heard' have some validity... and it wasn't just because I was too sensitive.
During our M, I asked him a number of times whether we should go to MC. "Something's not right," I felt. His response was always, "This argument doesn't have to be a referendum on our relationship. We can have a fight and then just move on." But of course we had no skills for resolving conflicts productively, or for filling our love tanks effectively, or for trying to reconnect when we really started to unravel. And, at the same time, I was also not taking responsibility for my mental health issues.
It just seems so out of this world to me. You can be married to someone. A year before, he can write you an anniversary card that says you are his best friend, and he hopes you always will be, he will reassure you over and over that the M is fine, that you are overthinking things. And then, he will just walk away and wall himself off from any discussion of it at all. As if we are 23 and have dated for a few months and can simply break up with no real implications. I mean, not one real conversation like, "Claire-- here's what I'm feeling. I'm scared. I don't want this to happen."
Instead, here we are, supposed to stay smiling and strong and jump immediately into this new version of our relationship with this sudden stranger. And after months and years of building a life together, they can just sit us down one day and say, "i'm moving out." and not have a single real discussion after that, except to say that they are just not in love anymore and have thought about it a lot and can't imagine ever being in love with us again.
Rambling a lot because I'm exhausted. Maybe someone else can interpret or clarifY?
You know- I think that DB is the most empowering way for us to approach this problem- but, wow, it isn't easy. I accept that part of this is to work on what I can control in the marriage and solve some of the issues that I may have brought to the situation. However, there's still a loud "attached" part of my brain that says - "Wait a minute! I have been really wronged here!" No matter what I did or didn't do in the marriage, this situation should not have been the result. And that is very very hard to accept- especially when the life partner to whom I would like to turn for comfort has suddenly vanished.
For me - I guess I'm filing this under the "for better or worse, and sickness and in health" part of the vows. As long as we are married, I at least am going to keep that vow and do my best to work through this "worse" time with him (and frankly I think the sickness part probably applies to him right now as well)
Claire,
Everything you just wrote, even though you thought it was rambling, really resonated with me. Everything in this thread is resonating with me tonight.
Your H is in the same mindset as my H. It's not right and doesn't come naturally so it's not supposed to work. Ok, maybe it's not that simple but it's a basic idea of his words. And he's completely oblivious to the feeling of accomplishment of working through stuff to the point of a resolution that feels good because you worked for it. Resolution to him means I give up and apologize.
We were never good at resolution in our marriage. We'd argue the same stuff over and over and over and for years and years and years and then when it was all out of our systems we'd go to bed and wait until it "blew over". That was just his way. I would bring it up again and he'd say nothing. I carried the burden of bringing up things over and over with the hope that we'd compromise or resolve ANYTHING. No. He was unwilling to compromise and I became stubborn, too. Then I carried the burden of saying "this isn't right, we never resolve anything" and he'd just shrug. He used to say "you see the problem you can fix it" and I called him out on the "whoever smelt it dealt it" mentality. We just did not know how to argue properly or resolve our issues properly. We became resentful and resentment leads to lack of respect. Too much of that and any marriage will crumble. But that doesn't mean we can't learn ways to work together. Learn ways to argue, provide respect, RESOLVE sh!t so we can be more loving and supportive. Why walk away from potential? Who does that?
And raliced, I agree. I feel like I've been really wronged here, as I am sure most of you do too. But the LBS often doesn't get to express that sentiment because we're trying to listen and learn and hope and change and read and post and research and validate and be patient. All super important things to do and crucial to building a healthy marriage where there wasn't one before but sometimes I want to say "hey! I've heard your plight. Now it's time to WORK, take the hard road because it's what is BEST in the long run."
Off to Amazon to look at "Mindset".
I hear you there, Claire. I'm sure for them, it's been a long time coming, but to just totally cut things off like it were some offending appendage, after years of sharing so much intimate knowledge with each other, is just gut wrenching. How do you go from writing notes saying how proud you are of someone and all they do for your family to telling them they are the worst person that you have ever known. Sometimes it would be nice to be a total stranger because I think a total stranger gets treated better!
Since I'm feeling all philosophical this am, I'll chime in a bit further. I don't think in every situation "it's a long time coming." I think that frequently there is an event or something that creates an *impetus* for change. In regards to that whole *in love* vs love thing , eh, that's pretty obvious to me. Some of that is merely brain chemistry so I believe when some people say they aren't *in love*, they are seeking newness and excitement-which will burn off in your brain in 18-24 months anyway.
However, I may differ a bit in the sense (it may not be very DB of me to think this) that I see some threads where it seems the LBS is *waiting* for the affair or infatuation with dating others to end. IMHO, that can be a dangerous mindset. Life is short. Waiting and not fully living is a dangerous path to place yourself. I don't say this to quell hope, and I always wonder if I should even say this. However, while 95% of affairs do not end in M or Rs, 5% do and I've seen those happen. Of course, not all of those will have true longevity as well.
That's why it's so important to focus on yourself and children if you have them. Ultimately, the only person you have any control over is yourself. And while, it is cathartic to analyze he how's, whys, and how coulds, the reality is that there may never be *true* answers to all of those questions. You only go around once, so savor the moment.
Happy Friday:-)
Claire! Wow... these are my thoughts exactly!
"A year before, he can write you an anniversary card that says you are his best friend, and he hopes you always will be, he will reassure you over and over that the M is fine, that you are overthinking things. And then, he will just walk away and wall himself off from any discussion of it at all. As if we are 23 and have dated for a few months and can simply break up with no real implications. I mean, not one real conversation like, "Claire-- here's what I'm feeling. I'm scared. I don't want this to happen."
Instead, here we are, supposed to stay smiling and strong and jump immediately into this new version of our relationship with this sudden stranger. And after months and years of building a life together, they can just sit us down one day and say, "i'm moving out." and not have a single real discussion after that, except to say that they are just not in love anymore and have thought about it a lot and can't imagine ever being in love with us again."
Thanks for recommending Mindset, reading it now. Interesting book!
Hope you are having a better day today.
Hugs, Lisa
Oh and Georgiabelle, totally agree with you as well. Waiting and waiting just isn't a good idea. You have to move on and enjoy life (eventually after being a wreck for a while). Maybe you always leave the door open a crack but yeah I think you are right. Don't put life on hold.
Hugs, Lisa
It just seems so out of this world to me. You can be married to someone. A year before, he can write you an anniversary card that says you are his best friend, and he hopes you always will be, he will reassure you over and over that the M is fine, that you are overthinking things. And then, he will just walk away and wall himself off from any discussion of it at all. As if we are 23 and have dated for a few months and can simply break up with no real implications. I mean, not one real conversation like, "Claire-- here's what I'm feeling. I'm scared. I don't want this to happen."
How about 6 weeks? Beautiful dinner out, beautiful card. Six weeks later he's Mr. Ice. He's done, wants out, ready to move on to a new life with OW. How does that happen?
One of the things I said in our MC was that he did not protect me, did not protect our marriage. That if he knew he was unhappy "for years", then why weren't we in MC years ago? The word "protect" gave him a start, but ultimately didn't make any difference of course.
Claire said:
"It just seems so out of this world to me. You can be married to someone. A year before, he can write you an anniversary card that says you are his best friend, and he hopes you always will be, he will reassure you over and over that the M is fine, that you are overthinking things. And then, he will just walk away and wall himself off from any discussion of it at all. As if we are 23 and have dated for a few months and can simply break up with no real implications. I mean, not one real conversation like, "Claire-- here's what I'm feeling. I'm scared. I don't want this to happen."
I know, it's mind-boggling. I am trying not to think about the person I depended on and trusted so much just feeling like "Eh. I'm not feeling it. Bye."
And in the same breath saying the fact that he was insane over this OW had "nothing to do with it. No, it didn't contrast with our M at ALL. No, it was just that his R with her was how he was "supposed to feel" (excited, distracted, horny, "in love"), and therefore our M was "dead". But that had NOTHING to do with why he doesn't love me anymore."
Claire: "Instead, here we are, supposed to stay smiling and strong and jump immediately into this new version of our relationship with this sudden stranger. And after months and years of building a life together, they can just sit us down one day and say, "i'm moving out." and not have a single real discussion after that, except to say that they are just not in love anymore and have thought about it a lot and can't imagine ever being in love with us again."
Yes, exactly. The only discussion we had was about how he was so damaged, that it wasn't me, but then again it was, we were just never meant for each other, she "made him happy" (maybe because the endorphins helped because he's depressed????).
But what sticks in my mind was that after about a week of me freaking out, he said, very disappointed:
"Well, I was really hoping to see you find some peace by now. I guess that's never going to happen..."
(This from the guy who refused counseling, wouldn't discuss anything, wouldn't touch me... Yeah. Peace.
He read half of a book on helping your spouse heal from your affair, it said to help them eat, so he brought me noodles once. I guess that means he "tried everything."
Like he said HE got after filing for divorce. "I'm at PEACE now..." he said. Really? Are you a sociopath????)
Oops! I'm looking over at his sandbox again... gotta scoot!
---GGG
You know, this discussion just makes me feel better, perhaps in a twisted sort of way, but I am soooo glad I'm not the only one this has happened to, that there are other people that know how I feel. I get caught up in the unfairness of it all sometimes. Thanks, ladies, for letting me know I'm not alone.
Oh and Georgiabelle, totally agree with you as well. Waiting and waiting just isn't a good idea. You have to move on and enjoy life (eventually after being a wreck for a while). Maybe you always leave the door open a crack but yeah I think you are right. Don't put life on hold.
Hugs, Lisa
This is the key, that's what GAL is about.
Work on those things you know you need to change, for you.
Don't wait. Live your life actively not waiting for someone to choose you.
Become the person you were meant to be.
Georgiabelle and labug, you're right.
GAL is a crucial element to not waiting. It's a welcome distraction, too. For me it's warding off what could be a debilitating depression and for that I'm WAY grateful!
Being left behind becomes all consuming. What went wrong? When did he change his mind? Why didn't he bring it up? Why is leaving the better option for him? So because these questions are left unanswered, deep confusion persists in our heads and going after the answers is pursuing, arguing and generally bad, we sit and... wait.
GAL keeps me busy while I'm waiting but I think what isn't being said is that we're supposed to let go and if he returns then welcome him back with open arms (if that's what we want). Right? If that's what we're supposed to do why is that not more clearly stated. Am I getting it wrong?
Ss, for what it's worth, when asked my H said he didn't think leaving was the best option, he just didn't know what else to do.
Since I didn't know what he wanted I couldn't make any better suggestions. He's got something to figure out and that's how he's going about it.
Sorry for the hijack, Claire.
Ss, for what it's worth, when asked my H said he didn't think leaving was the best option, he just didn't know what else to do.
Since I didn't know what he wanted I couldn't make any better suggestions. He's got something to figure out and that's how he's going about it.
Sorry for the hijack, Claire.
maybell,
That's even more confusing and I'm so sorry. Him leaving because he doesn't know what else to do and you not knowing what he wants in order to suggest some options... that's painful. I'm sorry. ((((())))))
Hey gang.
What great team-building we've done here! It feels really comforting to know that I am in such good company. I actually don't know anyone else in my situation. (I know a couple of women who left their husbands, and I know a couple of women whose ex-husbands were/are totally horrible, but I don't know anyone whose sitch was so similar to mine-- and especially NO women who have DB'd.
Anyway after all this analysis of our WAHs, I had another epiphany in the shower (where I do my best thinking!). After he left with D3 an hour ago, I sobbed, and screamed.. and then thought about it.
I realized that HE IS WEAK.
He has always been weak. Physically, he is not very strong (even though he is tall and he is neither scrawny nor fat, he doesn't work out, so he doesn't have a strong physique). And, he doesn't know how to fix stuff. He is not handy at all. I am the one who puts all the Ikea furniture together, who solves most of the little problems around the house. He just is not good at that kind of stuff. He was always very defensive and had trouble accepting responsibility and apologizing for mistakes, even big ones. That is such a sign of weakness and insecurity. A secure, confident person can own up to what they have done and apologize sincerely. A secure, confident person doesn't always have to "be right".
And a strong person would be able to communicate with their partner and have the courage to try to improve the situation together, or at least communicate it in a way that still honored the commitment. What if he had said, "Claire, I have to be honest with you-- I'm starting to feel like this M is not what I want for myself. I feel unhappy, and it's hard to imagine that changing. But deep down I don't want to get divorced. I think we need some time apart so that we can both work on ourselves, and then maybe we'll decide to work on rebuilding our R together. I can't offer you any guarantees, but I'm willing to try, and I hope we will find some resources that will help us."
I think maybe he chose me because I made him feel strong. I was even weaker than he was. Maybe he thought I was the best he could do. Would I choose him now? I actually don't think so. I could never really see how weak he was before, because I was so damaged and unhealthy myself. But I can see it clearly now.
For my daughter's sake, I'm still on the fence, but right now I am barely holding this rope. I deserve a stronger person. For all my faults as a person and a wife, I deserve better than the way he's handled this.
It's still heartbreaking, and I will still mourn all I stand to lose/have already lost. But today I think I've reached a turning point.
Claire, I'm not totally sure what to say to this. But I want you to know that I hear you and I'm glad you're coming to a peaceful place.
I've been thinking of my H as brittle rather than weak. But I hear you.
Claire,
That's my H.
Weak.
Insecure.
He can fix things, but he has a serious problem with "looking weak" or expressing any vulnerability.
This has been an ongoing issue with him.
In contrast, I am strong. I think he was attracted to my strength.
He just couldn't handle it and that came out in the bedroom (*sigh*)
Therefore, the preference for women he could feel superior to and porn.
Nothing to "compete" with, you know?
But "WEAK". Definitely.
It's my biggest fear. That his neediness and weakness (which I NEVER SAW until recently) will prevent him from doing anything to keep this train from hitting the end of the line.
Speaking of my fear, there are his fears. Numerous and deep.
Also something of which I was unaware until recently, at least about the extent to which they negatively impacted his life.
This is a guy who would never sing "Hootchie Cootchie Man" to me, although I asked him many times over the years.
(He used to be in a band and the girls would swoon when he sang it. I heard all about this and always wanted him to do this for me.)
It's a small thing to ask, right?
Recently, I asked him why he wouldn't do it.
I asked if it was a way to withhold from me, control or punish me.
He said he didn't think so.
He finally said it was more about looking foolish.
This was my partner of almost 3 decades.
The fact that he was worried about looking foolish in front of ME all that time, over a silly song--well, that says a lot.
And now I'm seeing more and more things along the same line, things I didn't make much of at the time.
It's sad and disheartening.
I made him a bumper sticker once with a picture of our little old dog.
It said "Be Kind".
He said: "I would never put that on my vehicle."
I thought he liked that I was kind to everyone, but now I think he must believe that kindness=weakness.
Who knows.
Sorry for the hijack--it's just that's how I think of him now:
Incredibly weak and looking everywhere for a fix except inside himself, where he would have to admit that he has problems.
---GGG
Maybell,
Brittle is probably a more compassionate way to put it. I have actually felt pity for my H. After all, what kind of person just up and walks out on their family? Not a very healthy one, that's for sure.
And while I realize there was a lot of anger in my post, I think I'm also just realizing that maybe that's the explanation for all this. He's just too weak. Too weak to look deep within himself, too weak to make real changes, too weak to work hard at rebuilding a life with me.
Maybe the pressure of trying to appear strong for me just got to be too much.
Gonna go out for a great dinner with friends tonight, and think of all the ways that I am strong on the way there. (And probably a few more ways he is weak, too).
Thinking of all you kicka$$ ladies tonight.
Have a great time, Claire!
Had an interesting conversation with a DB coach this AM. Glad I waited on that email, and now have a bit more insight, and some slightly new strategies to try, along with some new perspective on the positives I've seen.
Not tossing in the towel just yet. And have a new GAL goal to get my cute little body back. First step is to get moving more. Gonna sign up for a 5K in December. Plenty of time!
You go Claire! You are awesome! And strong!
Right on! Can I be your virtual running partner? I have one I want to do in October.
Any general insights from your coaching session to share?
I would LOVE to have a virtual running partner! We can post our progress (maybe start a new "GAL 5K" thread!) That would certainly keep me more honest.
A couple of really helpful notes from my coach:
He's still conflicted, so he has rewritten the relationship narrative to help him justify his decision. Seeing this new version of me complicates that narrative, but he's too afraid to accept it. So, he'll 'test' me by pushing my buttons, because what he expects to see (anger) would help him keep his rewritten narrative. So, every time I respond in a way he wasn't expecting, it will keep him conflicted.
For now, I just keep on keepin' on, keep on GAL, add a bit more mystery.
Maybell-- related to your sitch: I wouldn't suggest you should start dating, especially if you don't want to (and I totally relate to that), but giving off the image that you might be, and certainly COULD (and could do really well!) if you wanted to, could be a good thing.
I admire you runners. I only run when chased. LOL
I love that you posted your notes from your coach because it's helpful to me, too. Ever heard the song "Better Version of Me" by Fiona Apple? It's a good one. Anyway, your new version of you complicating his narrative is GOOD. Keep it up. You're an inspiration for sure, Claire. Keep it up!
Maybell, also related to your sitch, I agree. Dating might get a little hairy at this point BUT I like Claire's idea that you could give off the image that it's not out of the question or that you're totally dateable (which you certainly are!) could add some mystery maybe without being downright deceitful, you know?
GAL 5k thread -- yes!!! Do you want to start it or shall I??
So... The universe is telling me to flirt freely. I can certainly handle that.
now just to find unmarried willing targets. The musician I was going to see cancelled for tomorrow (I have an inside track on the schedule) so I've got to find a substitute activity.
Thanks a lot for sharing your coach's insights. It seems to have made a difference in how you're feeling.
"flirt freely" is an awesome thing. Enjoy that!
Maybe it doesn't have to be only about running. Could just be a place for people to track their GAL activities, or log anything they want to keep track of. Sometimes just knowing you are going to have to post it can help keep you motivated.
I need to wait a bit on a start date, though... (Hmm, that sounds like an awful excuse). So, let me 180 that. Never mind, let's get this thing started! Maybell, you are such an encouraging wordsmith, I would love it if you would start the thread! We could add our goal as part of our signature!
I love your idea of a 5K thread. I was wondering if there was a GAL Check In post or something so everyone can post what they're doing each day or so as a running list of ideas or suggestions and as a way to keep tabs on those who are NOT doing what they know they should so we can encourage those people.
Thoughts on that? Is that against any board rules?
There's a goal thread that was started a couple of months ago but it wasn't sustained.
Okey dokey, I'll set it up.
Hi ladies!
Claire, I just wanted to say I am reading Mindset now, thanks for the suggestion. It is a genius book! I am definitely one of the fixed mindset people and it is so nice to know I can change that! I can see this making my life a lot better and more exciting. So thank you!
I love the GAL thread idea, too bad I am not a runner but I support you ladies!
Hugs, LisaB
LisaB,
So glad you are finding Mindset helpful! I find that her theory meshes really well with DB.
Ok kids. Please tell me if I'm crazy or not:
I'm going out of town on my first business trip ever, leaving D3 with WAH for 4 nights in a row. I was thinking of baking him a cake that he's said in the past is one of his favorites of mine (I used to bake quite a bit, and he always bragged about my ability to everyone). It's also a variation of a cake that his grandma used to make, so there is even more sentimental attachment.
I could give it to him as a thank you for stepping up while I'm away, and congratulations on his new job, and also for my D3, so she can have a special treat from me while I'm away, and they can share it together.
I was inspired by the "zucchini bread" strategy someone else tried. But is it way too much pursuing?
Hi Claire, I'll put my 2 cents in.
Bake the cake but not as a thank you. Tell him it is a treat for D3 if you like or just don't say anything except "I baked this delicious cake! Enjoy!"
Now I want cake...
Hugs, LisaB
Agree with Lisa.
I'm going to agree with Lisa, too - I think it still lets you do something nice, but takes away some of the pursuing elements.
Argh. Sometimes I wonder whether I've really changed, or whether just being away from my H has been the important factor.
D3 was due back at 4 pm. He texts at 3:20 that they are back early and can they come in. I didn't respond. 10 minutes later he rings the doorbell. I try to act pleasant, but maybe without thinking said, "oh, I wasn't expecting you home until 4:00!"
H: well, I texted you that we didn't hit traffic and were back early. I didn't want to just sit in the car, and D3 wanted to come home. You didn't answer my text so I buzzed. You don't need to be here, I can take care of her if you are in the middle of something. Sorry if I took you away from what you were doing."
But he was visibly frustrated.
Then, see, Claire, this is what I meant by you make it awkward.
So, i failed that test.
How much do i care? Not sure.
Cake is in oven. Kind of want to shove his face in it. Here ya go, mr. Wonderful.
Correction: I did not fail miserably. 20 minutes after he left I got a long email that started off like this:
"I'm sorry for over-reacting earlier. It's ok that you were just taken aback by the early arrival. I hope you understand why I was early and hope that it wasn't too much of an imposition. "
He went on to add some other stuff about why he was in a bad mood, and apologized for projecting onto me, and
said the cake smelled great and he was looking forward to having some with D3.
Back in the game, baby. The marathon continues. This DB is not for the faint of heart, I tell you. But whatever happens I know i will look back on this with lots of pride.
And thanks for all the suggestion about the cake! I took your advice.
Wow, Claire, that worked out better than you expected!!!
Claire,
You may not be perfect in H's eyes, but I bet you bake a heck of a cake!
I got Mindset too---on Audible. So I can listen to it as I try and fall asleep.
We can do a book talk!
---GGG
haha! Let's do a book talk for sure GGG!
I'd be interested to hear whether others are fixed or growth mindsets.
Claire good job! And to be honest I think you had the right to be irritated when he showed up early. What if you had a guy there? I mean, that is what I think when my H just assumes he can show up or whatever. I mean, we are not together so... what if I had a guy over and he just showed up whenever he wanted? Not cool.
Glad the cake went over well.
Hugs, Lisa
Thanks! I love to bake... I started a few years ago (never had that growing up), but basically completely stopped when D3 was born. But now have started up again a bit. Really enjoy it. Have even done some actual cooking, which is a 180 for me.
Book club sounds like a great idea!
How's everything going? Are you ok?
Thanks for checking in Maybell. I was on a business trip all week, not much time to check the boards.
Honestly? I'm so thrilled for all the posters who are experiencing big, positive changes in their situations. There is a lot of potential for reconciled marriages.
And at the same time, I was thinking while I was away how much I miss having someone to share my life with. I texted my H to check in on how he was doing-- D3 stayed with him all week -- and he felt it was appropriate to tell me how crazy his week was at work... but of course hadn't asked anything at all about how my very first business trip, across the country, doing a brand new project with a brand new team, was going. He can't bring himself to muster one "How are you?" even while he's complaining about how his life is going.
So, I text back, "I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you get a chance to relax this weekend."
And then, I came home to a big sign on the door that said, "Welcome Home Mama" that my D3 made with her babysitter. My heart melted. And at the same time, I realized that I had never done something like that for my H when he went on a trip. I only thought about what it was like for me to be home alone with our D3, and never about what it was like for him to be away from home.
And I've been reading MWD's FB page, and another page with similar sentiments... and their posts both remind me of how dysfunctional our M was, and also make it clear that the dysfunction was a) very common, and b) fixable.
So, where does all this rambling leave me? i don't know. I feel so proud of myself, had a great, exciting week and feel very accomplished. And wish I could share it with a partner. I know I wasn't the wife I should have been, or can be. But was I so horrible that he can't even entertain the possibility of things getting better? That sux. That makes me so sad about all of this. I think I deserve better. I am a flawed person who has made many mistakes and took my H for granted, and didn't take responsibility for my mental health issues, but I am a good person and worthy of forgiveness and hope and love from the man who promised all of that to me.
Hope you are doing ok, too, Maybell. Sounds like there has been a lot going on for you.
Claire - I don't have much time to comment but I did want to say as you've followed my situation. My H never once could ask me how are you, even when I reached out to him, no matter what I did or didn't do or said or didn't say he could never ask about me.... And look where I am right now. Just want you to know things change and have the potentional to change.
I never thought even 2 weeks ago I would be spending the night out with H and our boys.
Keep your head up
Thanks, T0. That means a lot. Been thinking about you a lot! Yes, you are right-- anything is possible!
Claire, my H asks how I am but deflects talking about himself. Always has. It's just as hurtful as being disregarded. I guess we don't get to pick our poison.
Congratulations on your career milestone! I'm glad the babysitter was so thoughtful.
Totally random, but just watched Beyonce' blow up the MTV VMA's... She is amazing. There are rumors swirling that she and Jay-Z are on the rocks. Want to send them DR!
Claire I am so glad things went well on your trip.
Welcoming someone home after being away is always something well-received. I'm impressed with the babysitter but even more impressed with your ability to see how you saw that situation with your H when he would come home from traveling. I could have done more in the same department for sure.
Your H's one sided view sounds familiar. His woes and struggles are always forefront of his mind. They should be honored, sure, but what about YOU? I know. It's a balance and I'm learning that if you're doing a good job of taking care of yourself, you don't need him to ask about your business trip. You rocked it, you know it. His asking is icing... but build your own delicious cake. Be the strong, graceful woman you already are.
someday he might want to look at the bakery case.
Annnd... ending this thread with a confession. I was a bad DB'er. So, I emailed my H to update him on something logistical, and added the little realization I had above (that I never took the time to consider his perspective when he traveled, or welcomed him home lovingly. I told him I was sorry for that, and that if I had the chance to do it again, that is one of many things I would do differently.
No response, of course. Though, I wasn't expecting one. I really just want him to know that I realize the ways in which I wasn't the partner I can and want to be. One of his complaints was that he didn't feel loved-- he didn't feel like I put enough time and attention into our relationship. He's right.
I guess all I can do is continue to be the best me I can be, which includes having compassion for myself when I make a mistake and send an ill-timed email that will only push him further away. Oh well.
You put it out there, you were being vulnerable, that's OK. In fact that's good and you should have compassion for you, look at what you're learning. You're not sitting in a corner somewhere blaming others for your life. Sometimes we have to apologize or make amends for past hurts in order to move forward.
You're taking control of what you can control. You're owning your actions.
Say whatever you want as long as it's your truth and you have no expectations.
Just a quick "Amen" to what labug said. That's not bad DB'g, in my estimation. That's self-discovery and kindness.
I guess I'll end this thread with a big thank you to labug. I really appreciate your words of support. He has still not responded at all to that message, but has continued to send logistical requests, including a request to set the date for our next mediation appointment to review/revise our parenting agreement.
I think I'm back to anger again. I deserve so much better than this. After showing him such significant changes (that he's acknowledged), he still won't even entertain the possibility of rebuilding our marriage. And he can't even respond to any messages that raise any issues. After 8 years together, (6 married), and a child, I can't believe he thinks it's ok to just up and walk out one day and never speak of it again, or make any real attempt to repair.
I'm still stuck in this place of being so completely bewildered that a grownup can behave this way towards someone he promised his life to and had a child with.
When do I get to scream at him and share some of MWD's work and ask him, Why are you completely unwilling to do ANYTHING to try to make this work?
(I know. I don't. )
Time for a new thread, maybe that will give me a new train of thought.
New thread here:
Claire- Is DB Worth It? Part 6 I think the only outlet I have for these feelings of frustration and sadness are to write a letter that I won't send, just to get it all out.
I mean, if my WAH took five seconds to google "Can I fall back in love with my wife?" he would find a whole ton of resources that could at least open up possibilities. How do you just walk out on someone without trying
AT ALL to get real help together? How do you live with yourself if you've done that? I guess I need a 2x4 because I am still so baffled by this.
Claire,
It is baffling. A wise vet posted on my thread once that marriage and children are not for the weak. Some people may find that comment condescending when in reality, it's quite honest-and rather accurate.
Keep up all the positives for YOU:-)