So, is this an appropriate reply to my H's email about what kind of apartment he should rent?
"Yes, the size/price/location tradeoff is certainly a dilemma. I'm sure you'll choose what's best.
I do want to finish nailing down the terms of the separation agreement before you make the move. Let me know when you've made an appointment with MC so I can put it on my calendar. "
So I sent my reply email this morning, haven't heard back anything. The only contact so far today has been some texts about the bathroom remodel. H seemed he!!bent on getting it done, now I understand why.
I'm feeling very lethargic today. Not crying, just tired and numb.
RRPL,
Sorry to have been MIA for a while, sweetie.
So, is this an appropriate reply to my H's email about what kind of apartment he should rent?
"Yes, the size/price/location tradeoff is certainly a dilemma. I'm sure you'll choose what's best.
I do want to finish nailing down the terms of the separation agreement before you make the move. Let me know when you've made an appointment with MC so I can put it on my calendar. "
The second portion is controlling. It is your fear and anexity that is coming out. Do you now see it?
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The second portion is controlling. It is your fear and anexity that is coming out. Do you now see it?
Wonka I do see how the second part is controlling. But most of that agreement is about the children and the point of the appointment is to discuss the kids too. Shouldn't there be a loophole if I'm trying to protect my kids? Or not?
Look back at what you said to H:
It essentially told him that he CANNOT move until he signed the SA. You cannot control what he can or cannot do. If he wants to move out or move to another locale, so be it.
These are two separate issues.
Do you see what I am driving at here, RPPFL?
Sort of. Intellectually I totally get it. Yes I was trying to control his actions before he moved out. Something to learn from in the future. But emotionally (I am a woman after all) I felt like I was finally standing up for myself and my kids after a lot of years of not doing that. In this scenario I was reminding him of something he had already promised.
So my question is, was there way to stand up for myself and kids without coming across as controlling? Or is that just something to let go of? Teach me.
So I just received a second email:
"But what are your thoughts about 3 vs 2 bedrooms"
That's the whole thing. His concern is that if he doesn't get 3 bedrooms then d16 will never go see him. Honestly she probably won't anyway. I can't believe he actually thinks I'm going to participate in this in any way. If I did I could never look my kids in the eye again.
Just simply say:
I am sure you can figure this out and have every confidence that you will. Good luck!
You want to make sure that H owns his choices since he wanted out of the M. Let him figure this out all by his lonesome self!
Just simply say:
I am sure you can figure this out and have every confidence that you will. Good luck!
You want to make sure that H owns his choices since he wanted out of the M. Let him figure this out all by his lonesome self!
Wonka I am totally prepared to say that this time! :-)
Another tip...if H sends you another text, after you send ^^ your response, pushing for your thoughts or whatever...ignore it and do NOT respond to it at all.
He is a big boy.
So I sent the "you can figure it out" email late last night. No reply as of yet. We have texted this morning about what time he will be back today and if he should take D16 car shopping.
In order to get to sleep at night I have been entertaining myself with things I'd like to change about the house once he moves. That may be a bit petty but it works.
Good job!
I changed the marital house when Ms. Wonka moved out and she NOTICED alright. You can to ahead and do your house makeover to suit to your style preferences. Especially your bedroom. Trust me...that will hit H hard in between the eyes.
Just journaling a bit. H got home early afternoon, took S18 to a Scout BBQ, then took D16 car shopping. H grilled steaks for dinner, it was a pleasant afternoon/evening. I just don't understand how we can have such a good time as a family and he still wants to leave it all.
Not much else to report, he hasn't asked for my advice on his apartment again, probably won't since I've turned him down twice. The downside of that is that I won't know he's rented a place until he says he found a place and is ready to move in.
I just keep praying to get my life back, even though I know we can't go back and that I shouldn't want to. After all, where I was then led me to where I am now. It's a struggle.
Just journaling a bit. H got home early afternoon, took S18 to a Scout BBQ, then took D16 car shopping. H grilled steaks for dinner, it was a pleasant afternoon/evening. I just don't understand how we can have such a good time as a family and he still wants to leave it all. Focus on the positives.
Not much else to report, he hasn't asked for my advice on his apartment again, probably won't since I've turned him down twice. Good for you!! The downside of that is that I won't know he's rented a place until he says he found a place and is ready to move in. It'll all be revealed in due course. Patience.
How's your GALing?
Limping along. I have been to a couple of events with a Meet-Up group, which was quite the challenge for me, I'm uncomfortable meeting new people. The past two weeks I've been to a different church which is a big deal for me as I'm rather entrenched in where I am for a lot of reasons job/kids/H in a leadership role. I can't leave my current church, but it was good to experience something else. I've been to lunch with friends a couple of times. I've spent more time just hanging out with D11 in the pool, etc.
My girls start school next week, and D11 will be at a totally new school, we don't know anyone there. I'll try to get involved in the parents' association, volunteer for some things.
As I write this out, I notice two things. One, H doesn't know about any of it with the exception of the new church visit. That means it's truly for me. And two, I'm not really learning anything new here, not fundamentally changing who I am, I'm just making myself uncomfortable meeting new people. Is there any actual value to that, or do I need to be learning new hobbies/skills? I see other people posting lists of great new sports and dance classes they've taken up. I feel a little inadequate, but time is just a HUGE factor.
Hi all, just journaling again. There's not that much to tell, life goes on. H and I texted/emailed a few times during the day about kid stuff, we all ate dinner together and had a laid back evening. That's it. No drama whatsoever.
My SIL did upset me, though. She texted me and asked if I had been showing anger towards H. I questioned why she would ask that and it turns out that she thought that maybe H needed me to have an emotional outburst to realize that I love him. She also mentioned that I hadn't asked any questions about the OW. I replied that I was trying to maintain some grace and dignity throughout this nightmare and had no intention of polluting my brain with images of H and OW that would make it hard for me to act lovingly towards him, and H didn't need me having a hissy fit in the floor to know that I love him. The whole thing upset me.
RPPFL,
I am glad to read that you're GALing pretty good. Keep it up.
Be careful of engaging the ILs since blood is thicker than water and they'll side with their brother regardless of what the sitch is actually on the ground.
You might want to say something like this:
"Thank you for your concern. It is clear that you care very much about your brother. As do I. H and I are working on our issues. Thank you for checking in. Have a good day!"
Be careful of engaging the ILs since blood is thicker than water and they'll side with their brother regardless of what the sitch is actually on the ground.
H's sister and mom have actually very supportive of me. SIL especially (who is a Christian counselor and works with couples in crisis) has repeatedly let me know that she loves me and wants our M to work out. I have vented to her some and she readily recognizes that her brother is not acting his usual self these days. She is disgusted by his A, and she's generally been great to me. Yesterday's text took me by surprise. Maybe that's why I reacted to it so.
But you are right that in the end, when it's all over, they will by necessity be on his side. I've told her that, but need to keep it in mind myself. Thanks.
Well, this may possibly be a huge DB fail, but that's OK. It's a big shift for me and that's good enough. I told H (by text) about his sister's text and that it upset me. I only mentioned the "emotional outburst=love" part and not the OW part. There was no pressure about the ILY and I didn't require a response in any way. But just showing any vulnerability to H is big for me, sounds odd to say that about someone I have been married to a quarter of a century, but it's true. H actually bothered to reply, which pleased me, and I said thank you for listening to me and that was that. Even if it was DB fail, I was happy with the exchange.
rppl I just caught up on your sitch ... you are handling yourself with grace
few things .. as far as the you getting out and being uncomfortable thing .. my IC recommended just that, like you I have 24 years with my WAW, lost my identity, so getting out into something that is not familiar and out of our comfort zone actually promotes our self worth and growth, its a good thing for us all todo and goes with the GAL movement.
The last post about sharing, sounds like a 180, and did not sound like you did a backslide or it was a negative exchange, in a backhanded way you show that you were not going to outburst creating an negative image of yourself but you do care enough about him that you refuse to show it in a way that is just not you .. seems like you can walk away from that exchange with a small positive from my perspective .... I am still learning all this DB stuff but just hang in there and stay positive!!
Hi rppfl, I agree with CaliGuy that it was probably not a DB fail but a 180 that you expressed your feelings about the SIL. That's just my 2 cents!
Sounds like you are doing really well and are so strong!
Hugs, Lisa B
CaliGuy and Lisa thank you for the affirmations and support. I have been working on opening up and sharing my emotions to H more and this was big for me. In the past I swallowed everything and that apparently didn't work for either of us.
I look at my mom and dad and the stone cold marriage they've had for 60' years. No sharing of emotion, no affection whatsoever. But they would never consider divorce. I thought I had something so much better but took the no divorce part for granted. I wish someone would have sat me down and explained what a real marriage is all about 25 years ago.
Another journal without a lot to report: life goes on as usual, H home for family dinner, pleasant evening. He helped with the dorm room shopping, is keeping an eye on the bathroom remodel, no one would know there's trouble in paradise.
I have an appointment with a L today, just to understand the D process and if I need to do anything to protect myself at this point. H and I have agreed not to file during the upcoming 4-month separation, but then again, he's not exactly trustworthy these days. Much of my resistance to the separation is fear-related and I'm hoping the meeting with the L will help address that. She isn't cheap, but IMO it's an investment in my mental health.
We'll appt with L was a bust. When I got there L was not in the office, I was not on the calendar, and the assistant I had spoken to had been fired. I know things happen but this was very annoying. I am waiting to see what happens tomorrow before I reschedule or look for someone else.
D11 texted H to ask what time he'd be home. His reply was "sometime between now and tomorrow morning". That had better be a joke.
RPPL,
Welcome to the Zany World of Idiots!!
You hit two of them today so you win a prize here.
RPPL,
Welcome to the Zany World of Idiots!!
You hit two of them today so you win a prize here.
Wonka, I deal with a pretty large number of idiots on a daily basis. LOL. H and L have to get in line!
Holy cats. H's response to son is mind boggling.
Sorry to hear you had a rough day.
One foot in front of the other. One day at a time.
MLP, turns out he got home fairly early for him by 7:30pm I'm pretty sure the text to D11 was a joke, the only other possibility is that he knew she'd tell me about it, but that's mindreading.
I have been thinking about some of the wisdom given out by former WAS on this board, that they felt unappreciated for years before walking out. I try to apply this to H, and then compare that to how exhausted I am after only four months of this (since BD). I don't know that I have it in me to fight for years.
I'm pretty sure H was apartment shopping on his ipad last night while we were watching tv with D. He made a comment about a friend of our whose house was still on the market after a couple of years. How would he know that if he wasn't looking at listings? I thought that was disrespectful to do that in front of D11, but as she didn't know I didn't say anything. I suppose it's no more disrespectful than asking me - twice - what kind of apartment he should get.
rppfl -
I know what you mean about not being sure you have the fight in you for years. I've been there. But, then when I consider the alternatives, I find that there's a little deeper to dig....
The road is long....(What is that cheesy song from the 70s? Now that's going to bother me!..."From which there is no return...." Oh boy.)
Anyway - for me, I've found a lot of solace in faith recently. YMMV, but it's been really good for me. Maybe it's just helped me detach more. Not sure.
rppfl -
I know what you mean about not being sure you have the fight in you for years. I've been there. But, then when I consider the alternatives, I find that there's a little deeper to dig....
Somebody help me with this, please. Here's where I get hung up. If things were to stay, exactly as they are, even right now, I would wait it out for 7 more years (until the youngest child graduates from HS). I would live with little affection, not as much s*x as I want, his sharp tongue, and I would even put up with OW as long my kids and friends don't know. I know some of you are possibly shocked by that, but it's what I'm doing now and I would do it for years because I believe it best for my children. We have a very normal home life, H is a good dad, and I think my kids are better off for it.
HOWEVER, once H moves out and my children's lives are disrupted, being shuffled from house to house, having to put up with dad's attention being shifted to OW and possibly her children (don't know who she is), putting their financial well-being into jeopardy, then that's where I no longer see the appeal of waiting. The alternative at that point, once I can no longer protect my kids, seems OK to me. What else do I have to lose?
Rppfl -
I get it. You know the expression, "I'll cross that bridge when I get to it..." That's my current MO.
If he moves out, then you'll cross that bridge when you get to it.
Moving out may be JUST the thing though that he needs to figure out that he's got to sort through a whole mess of crazy.
And in the meantime, it may be just the thing that you need to decide that you've had enough.
You both have free will here.
Another uneventful day of journaling. Family dinner, laid back evening. Conversations about bathroom remodel, dorm room packing, nothing eventful, nothing helpful. Limbo.
Rppfl -
You both have free will here.
MLP this is helpful to realize. I've been looking at it as H calling all the shots, most of our marriage, really, but most certainly now. I don't have the ability to undo the damage he's trying his best to inflict, but I do have the free will in how I to respond to it. That's hard to remember sometimes.
I have the name of a different L that I might call for a consultation, and a friend is supposed to be getting me another name. I'm annoyed that the first one who messed up the appointment on Wednesday didn't contact me to apologize or even explain. Unprofessional IMO.
This weekend will be focused on dorm packing. We will need to work out some kid schedule things for next week, it will be a challenge to get the girls to different schools at the right time. The schools are quite a distance apart, and the difference in start times doesn't give me the drive time I need between them. A couple of weeks ago H said he could take D11 to her school most days, but I can count on one hand the number of days that H has taken any of our children to school in the past 15 years. I'm not counting on it.
Good morning. Another day of DBing. This weekend will be focused on getting everyone ready for school to start Monday. All three kiddos still need some things and all the dorm stuff has to be packed up. I'm gonna cry like a baby when that boy leaves. He is the calm one and my gym buddy.
I asked H to take D11 to school Monday and he said yes. I have one day covered. That's a start!
It's great that H is taking D11 to school....at least he's involved with them, RPPFL. Count your blessings whether they come in small or big packages.
That's true Wonka, he is a good dad. And he has a particularly close relationship with D11, which he seems to have put extra effort into the past 6 months. I am guessing he saw the need to build it up a little so it would survive his walking out. Mindreading. But if it's better for D11, then I'll take it, no matter the motivation.
Last night was tough. We had a special dinner to celebrate S18 leaving for college on Tuesday. As we were eating dessert, D16 started talking about my upcoming 50th birthday (it's in January) and saying how H and I should take a special trip. Remember, none of the kids know. So that was awkward. And then the conversation shifted to my job, because I work at the church/school where they've all gone for elementary and now they are all gone but I still work there. They were talking about my getting a different job. I said that as long as I had to work that's the job I want, but a year ago I had really wanted to be able to quit and not work right now. That was awkward also because not only can I not quit, I may have to get a different job to be able to pay the bills. Life is definitely not turning out like I wanted. I went to bed and cried for a good hour.
RPP,
Sorry you had an awkward night. It's okay to have a good cry every now and then. It can be rather cathartic.
I think all of us at some point grapple with the "life hasn't turned out the way I thought." It may be difficult to believe right now, however there IS a reason why life is what it is right now. It can be better than evah!!!!! Hang in there:)
Thanks Georgiabelle. It's very difficult to believe that things can be better than what I thought I had. The M was by no means perfect, but I was committed and thought H was too. I thought we were going to grow old together and things would get better as the kids got older and more self-sufficient. It's hard to give that vision up. BUT since I don't really have a choice, I guess I need to work on that.
RPP,
I think all of us at some point grapple with the "life hasn't turned out the way I thought."
GB, I've been considering this all day, and I thought of families I know whose lives didn't turn out the way they thought. The couple whose youngest daughter died unexpectedly at 16. The single lady who was diagnosed with leukemia last week. The kids who found their dad dead when they got home from school. The family whose house had to be leveled because of black mold. The woman whose husband shot himself in their backyard. The guy who died because he went to the bathroom and choked alone instead of asking for help. The mom who had to raise three boys by herself after her husband died of a brain tumor. I personally know these all these people. I guess sometimes life just doesn't work out like you thought it was going to. I just need to get into a frame of mind where I'm not blaming others, specifically H of course, for mine not turning out like I wanted.
Hi RPPFL,
Those are horrible tragedies and I too know many people who have dealt with some incredibly strenuous circumstances. Everyone has difficulties in their lives and pain comes in a variety of circumstances. And while I certainly would never minimize anyone's pain, I can say that although my h and I each grew up with parents who valued marriage and commitment, (And D is practically unheard of in my h's family), this doesn't define the person I am or the person I aspire to be. My children are loved and it pains me greatly to see them hurt as they have experience a great deal the last 18 months.
I genuinely do think this and never want to sound cavalier, however, you deal with the deck of cards you get. We never know what the future holds regardless of what we have planned or wished for. There are some things that are simply out of our control. We literally only get one shot at this thing called life and for me, my goal is to say that I did what I thought was best and know each night when I put my head on my pillow, that I lived that day with integrity and some humor. One door may close and another always opens. We just have to be aware enough to see them.
It's a adjustment-not a nail in the coffin. Hope your day is getting better.
Georgiabelle your post made my afternoon much better. Thank you.
So I survived the first day of school for my girls. D11, who is at a new school (older ones didn't go there either so unfamiliar for me also ) had a good day. Yay. On a sad note, the car is packed with S18's stuff for college, he and H leave early tomorrow. I have an IC appointment tomorrow as we'll, so I can cry to her about S18.
H plays in a contemporary Christian band at our church which has taken a break for summer but starts back after Labor Day so he is rehearsing tonight. It's beyond me how he can stand in front of the congregation and sing about how everything he does is for God's glory. I'm expecting lightning to strike him any day. I also don't know how I'm supposed to attend that worship service and get anything out of it. But I work for this church so going somewhere else isn't really an option. I am not sure how this is all going to play out.
Oh, that will be emotional when your s goes to college. You must be so proud! The lightening strike comment made me laugh. I always say it's probably best my stbx is an atheist. He would be like a giant metal rod during a lightening storm!!!
Please excuse my crazy sentences and typos in my previous post. I type very quickly on my phone and rarely check what my posts actually say. Oops. Hope IC goes well for you:-)
rppfl, when I go to church on Sunday I'll say a prayer that God finds a way to reach you in spite of the barriers your H has put in the way. We all need to be able to find center in the place that we call our spiritual home.
Best to you.
GB, I am very proud of my S. He's such a great kid, I'm going to miss him terribly.
Maybell, thanks for the prayers. We are very, very tied in to this church, H and I met there, got married there, had all our children's baptisms and first communions there, they've all been through elementary school there, and I have worked there for 16 years. It ought to be a comforting place, but it's just hard to know that H stands there and praises God when he's been in OW's bed the day before. Again, lightning strike!
I have a staff luncheon today, I don't feel much like being cheerful in a crowd, but I'll do what I have to. And then IC later in the afternoon.
RPPFL,
Why not go there with an open mind like a new beginner? You might be surprised to "hear" or "learn" something there.
RPPFL,
Why not go there with an open mind like a new beginner? You might be surprised to "hear" or "learn" something there.
Wonka, that's an interesting challenge. I don't know that I can see things a fresh way. I see my H front and center singing that "love will" (name of a song he wrote) overcome all obstacles. Apparently not. He says he loves me, but it isn't overcoming the obstacle of breaking his marriage vows that he made while standing on the exact same spot in the church. I sound bitter, I know. I'll have to give it some more thought as to how I might do that.
I just finished a session with IC. We talked about a variety of things, and it was nice to be open with someone, but I'm not sure what we accomplished. I don't feel like I have any more clarity on things than I did before. I think it's useful, it's nice to be totally honest with someone, but I'm just not sure where I'm supposed to be going with this. Is it wrong to want to have an agenda? Or am I supposed to just let things happen as they happen (with the IC)?
rppfl - I sometimes feel like this after I visit my IC, particularly if we haven't talked specific plans or strategies. I usually find these sessions involve a lot of validation on her part, though, or they give me an opportunity to talk out my end of things and see where I stand on some issues.
Have you talked through goals with your IC and what you'd like to be accomplishing? If not, this could be a good way to go. And if you haven't thought about what you'd like to be working on through IC, that would be good to figure out, too. Or, if you have, you could always ask how these sessions are contributing to what you're working towards.
How can we get through this mess.
Mine refuses to talk. I am dark and working on myself. What to do when guilt or regret or what ifs invade me during the day or gym.
They hurt too much.
How long do you have to go dark before she contacts me?
How can we get through this mess.
Mine refuses to talk. I am dark and working on myself. What to do when guilt or regret or what ifs invade me during the day or gym.
They hurt too much.
How long do you have to go dark before she contacts me?
Jim I am not the best to ask about going dark. I still live with H, we share a bed, we vacation together, and have three kids. I don't pursue or bring up R talk but if would by no means say I have gone dark.
Sorry you seem to be really hurting right now.
rppfl - I sometimes feel like this after I visit my IC, particularly if we haven't talked specific plans or strategies. I usually find these sessions involve a lot of validation on her part, though, or they give me an opportunity to talk out my end of things and see where I stand on some issues.
Have you talked through goals with your IC and what you'd like to be accomplishing? If not, this could be a good way to go. And if you haven't thought about what you'd like to be working on through IC, that would be good to figure out, too. Or, if you have, you could always ask how these sessions are contributing to what you're working towards.
Thanks Meghan. She did validate some, which was nice, I don't get anything from H at all right now and never did much anyway. She asked me some questions about things like, why haven't you told the children, where are you getting support, etc. I had clear answers to those and a reason behind my answer so that was that. I think she just wanted to know if I had thought through things and I have. She actually said I was handling things in a very healthy way, which was nice, but I also feel it's important for my kids.
Speaking of which, the more I journal the more I notice that it's all about my kids. Has anyone else picked up on that? Which makes me wonder, if we didn't have kids, would I be fighting for this man? I don't know the answer.
RPPFL -
My H was asked by a co-worker to preside over his wedding. So, he's joined the Universal Life Church, sent them $40 and was made a monk. (Seriously.) The date of the wedding - the anniversary of bomb drop. How do you like THEM apples?
H is not terribly religious, although he was raised in a church and sang in the church choir throughout his youth. I think he's going through a typical MLC cycle of dismissing God. Tricky for me, since my grandfather was a minister and married us and baptized us. I think H finds my faith a little rattling to him, particularly now.
I did get a little gift today though...One of his co-workers is pretty evangelical, and a really great guy. He recommended a movie called "God is not Dead" to H, and H was saying that we should watch it as a family. I truly felt as this was a little gift from an angel telling me not to give up.
Dunno if you've taken on the Hedge of Thorns prayer..Since you're a Christian I thought I'd throw it out there. I've found some solace in scripture and in that prayer. Just a thought - I know it's not for everyone.
I agree - looking at things from a new perspective can be helpful. As far as journaling more about your kids - maybe that means your detachment is going well! This process takes a LONG time....Would you still be fighting for this man without the kids? It's hard to know...but maybe!
Sending hugs....
MLP, that is just lovely. Performing a wedding for someone else while walking away from your own. Nice.
I was not familiar with the Hedge of Thorns prayer, so I looked it up. It makes a lot of sense to me. I was using the "Circle Maker" before, but I like the idea of the circle being made of thorns!
H is returning today from dropping S18 at college, so last night was just me and the girls at home. Quiet and uneventful. H and I texted a bit about the dorm room, he sent some pictures. All kid stuff.
Yeah - he would say that he's not walking away from his own. He's still here! He's just had/has a piece on the side!!! Marriage vows are for MOST people, but not necessary for him.
Nauseating and crazy.
I'll look up the Circle Maker--it's good to have a variety, I guess.
Hope your D has a great transition to college.
H and I just had this email exchange about Labor Day weekend when I will be with D16 at a sports tournament:
Me: Are you available for D11 to stay with you, or should I take her to (tournament)?
H: I don't have anything planned other than maybe looking at some housing options. I can tell her I'm going to Home Depot, and she won't have any interest in going!
Me: If you are comfortable with that, then she can stay. Obviously, she cannot go apartment shopping with you, so if you think that her being around is going to hamper your efforts significantly, she can go with me. So let's say for now that she will stay with you, and if you decide later it's going to be a problem, let me know.
That's the most information I've had about his moving out in weeks. Originally he had said that he would be moving September 1st, so I guess he didn't make that deadline. That's good, I was worried about it being so close to the start of school. Of course now we are going to be pushing towards D11's birthday in October. Guess there's always something.
By the way, I used to wonder why he spent so much time at Home Depot on Saturday mornings......my bad.
Just journaling again, nothing new to report really. H got back in town from taking S18 to college, then told me he had dinner with "folks" and would "be home late". As it turns out, he was home by 10, late enough, but not 3am. My kids are starting to notice his vagueness, especially the 16-year old. I am not going to lie for him, if she asks the right question, the gig is up.
I've also made a promise not to lie to the kids for him.
My D asked me directly if daddy had had an affair. I said yes.
We had a chat about MLC.
She has not talked to him about it, but is very angry towards him these days. He worked from home yesterday afternoon and when he came in she said, "What is HE doing here?"
So - that conversation is brewing. Yay.
My D16 has some very strong feelings about adultery. She has said on several occasions that if you want to break up with someone, fine, but don't cheat on them. For any reason. Ever. You always have the option of getting out first.
These conversations have happened over the years and have always surprised me she feels so strongly about it. I have no idea how she will react to her dad. I don't know if she will be angry at him for doing it or mad at me for putting up with it for four months now, or both.
My daughter feels both, I think.
I've talked to her at length about MLC. She gets it. She also understands that I haven't wanted to upend the family, and has told me she thinks I'm very strong.
But, I think she wishes I'd been able to stop it. Me, too, honey bunny. Me, too.
Hi Rppfl, I am reading DB just now and only wish I'd read it last year. When my h told me he was leaving he already had a place lined up which he moved into 3 months later. In those 3 months I showed him the worst of myself - I was moody, withdrawn, whiney, sullen and tearful, no wonder he couldn't wait to leave to go to ow. I wish I'd shown him then more of the person I want to be - I could have GAL, been more upbeat and just basically been nicer to him. It might not have made any difference, but maybe could have ignited a spark of how good things could be between us again.
Your h has told you he is leaving but he is still there. It could be that there is still a lot of doubts in his mind. You still have time to show him you are the woman only a fool would leave.
Also, my kids hate what their Dad has done. He told them he was leaving because we hadn't been getting along for a while, when they found out about the ow they were furious. They still have not visited him at his home or been anywhere with him. I think he's just hoping that given time they will come round to respecting his decision.
That's if he doesn't realise he's made a HUGE mistake and come home (still trying to think positively!)
So I have a question that I really could use some input on, please. I consulted with a L today, who explained where I might come out financially, and suggested that I be the one to file sooner rather than later. I can't keep H from wasting marital assets or moving around the assets without something in the system. One bummer is that it will be to my financial advantage to sell the house, and although I really wanted to stay, I understand the reason.
I then called my friend who is a L in another state, and he advised dragging it out as long as possible because by filing that forces the sale of the house. His opinion is that if we live separately but H continues to pay the bills, that's the way to go. I get to stay in the house until H decides to file. But I have no legal protection if H decides to be a jerk.
What is boils down to, then, is how much do I want to protect myself and my children v. how much I want my H back and how much I trust him to do the right thing? What do you think?
I think that's a tough one. Most of us have probably gotten some legal advice along the way - but the different states have so many different ways of handling things. I see that Florida does not have "Legal Separations"- which might have been an a better option.
Have you and H had any financial discussions at all? Would he be open to some sort of written agreement?
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Have you and H had any financial discussions at all? Would he be open to some sort of written agreement?
We have put together an informal separation agreement, not legally binding, but just between the two of us. It says that during the separation period, which is supposed to be four months, we will make as few changes to our finances as possible. He will continue to pay for all the things he pays for now, which is most things as he makes multiples of my salary. And although I know that's his intention, there's no guarantee that once he moves out and OW has his ear that he won't start to believe that I should be paying for more and he should be spending more on a nicer apartment or taking her on vacations or whatever. It's just hard to know what will go through his MLC brain. As the L pointed out to me, nice guys don't cheat on their wives. And I'll have no legal protection, only his word.
Hmmm...that's a tough one. Is it possible to make it legally binding? I googled and came up with this:
http://www.sandrabonfiglio.com/florida/legal-separation/See the section on "separation agreements". The courts can't enforce them (go after your husband if he doesn't do what he is supposed to) but it looks like they could still be used in a divorce proceeding.
Do you have access to his accounts? Can you see if he is moving money around? Maybe you can add that to your agreement. You can file pretty quickly if you start to see any funny business.
That being said - it's a tough choice. I know when I saw a lawyer he really encouraged me to file as well. In my case the main issue is that I would be legally responsible for any debt he runs up in this time - and I'm not worried about that. You sound like you have a lot more to protect.
Thanks raliced. Yes I monitor our accounts daily and so far it seems he's being above board. House and investments are joint. The danger would be his moving it out. I'd get it back eventually, assuming he didn't spend it, but it could take a while. And I'm looking for the least disruption to my kids in terms of housing, school, lifestyle.
Anyone else want to weigh in on file now or wait it out?
^^^Anyone else have input about filing or not?^^^
Not much to journal today, H was out late again last night. He came home after I went to bed and only got up as we were walking out the door this morning, so not much interaction.
We have emailed a bit about how to share parenting time with D11. He is proposing a week with mom a week with dad. The thought of that turns my stomach. I have no intention of giving her up for an entire week, nor do I see how he would have time for that. Reference above paragraph for an example of his typical schedule. For those of you who have similarly-aged children, how do you do it?
I didn't see your paragraph about your H's schedule, but I have my kids full time and H has them every other weekend.
Is your H being at all cooperative? Can you talk to him about setting aside a chunk of money in, perhaps a kind of escrow account supervised by the attorney, in the event things between you and your H go further south?
Good luck...
Maybell, my H travels for business a great deal and is out on business dinners one or two nights a week. He generally doesn't come home from the office until 7:30 or 8:00pm on a good night. I don't see how you can properly supervise the needs of an 11-year old with that kind of schedule. After he made the week on/week off proposal, I countered with he comes to dinner one week night at the house and she stays with him every other weekend. That was just a while ago and he hasn't replied yet. We haven't addressed the 16-year old at all.
As far as money, I consider him cooperative because it doesn't appear that he's hiding anything, he answers any questions that I ask about money, and we have agreed that during the separation things will not change financially. I may be over-thinking things here, but it's just kind of hard to trust him these days.
I had never intended to file myself, I always thought that if he really wanted it, then he'd have to do it himself. The meeting with the L just made me start thinking about things in a more objective way. Right now I'm leaning towards gathering my documentation but not taking any legal action. The longer this all drags out, the longer I stay in the house, with or without him. The kids don't have to be uprooted, and that's my primary goal.
Your sitch is very similar to mine. I did give the documentation to the L to minimize the possibility of him hiding things, though I don't think he'd do that. If nothing else, I always have the option of turning to my in-laws if I really must.
Don't ya hate all this? I do. Hugs...
Don't ya hate all this? I do.
Yes, I do. The point of this separation is supposed to be for both of us to "gain clarity" about what we want to do going forward. The funny thing was that in the beginning I was clear that I wanted to save my marriage, but it's becoming equally clear that if he actually walks out and we have to tell the kids and "share" them, if I have to uproot them from their house, if there's any possibility they have to change schools, then I'm probably done. There's not a lot of middle ground for me. I know that divorces happen every day, that kids have to move and change schools for all kinds of reasons and that they turn out fine. But if the reason is that H is just being self-centered, then I'm going to have a hard time forgiving that. Forgive the affair, yes. Forgive what you've done to my kids, I don't know. (Someone hit me upside the head, please, if necessary. But that's what I'm feeling right now.)
So in the GAL department I might be coaching a girls basketball team. I've done it before, that would definitely keep me busy!
So I am definitely coaching my D11's basketball team. That's going to take a lot of
time but it's something I enjoy.
Today was fine I spent a lot of time drafting my team so I was not around H very much. Now he's out at a sporting event that's a business function. Stress free evening with my girls.
Hi all, journaling again.
I have a question about when to tell the kids. I had not wanted to tell them until H had an apartment secured and was actually ready to move. Up until now, I had held out hope that maybe he would change his mind and we wouldn't actually have to tell them. After having had two L consultations, I'm not so afraid of the financial consequences of D, and I'm more willing to let him go. Being more detached is most likely also playing a role here. So, my questions I'm wrestling with is, should we go ahead and tell the kids that dad wants to move out and is apartment shopping? I'd try to phrase that a little more diplomatically with the kids, but that's the general gist of what's actually happening. Do we tell them that there's trouble in paradise and that he is planning to move, or do we wait and spring it on them just before the actual move?
I wouldn't say anything until it's lined up. It feels to loose right now. "Dad is wanting to move out but we don't know when" will illicit a stream of questions that won't have real answers. I hate to say to spring it on them, however it's going to blindside them anyway. Preparing them for his eventual move sadly won't lessen the blow.
Just my 2 cents
I wouldn't say anything until it's lined up. It feels to loose right now. "Dad is wanting to move out but we don't know when" will illicit a stream of questions that won't have real answers.
Just my 2 cents
That's what I've thought all along, I was just second-guessing myself this morning. And in all honesty, maybe trying to make his life a little uncomfortable seeing the kids misery in a way that he won't once he leaves. I'll get to deal with all that myself.
He won't see it as consistently as you do but he'll feel it, trust me. My H is aware that he's missing out on a LOT. He will never get that back and I am certain he knows it because trying to get anything out of them (for example, hearing about their first days of school) is impossible in ten minutes on the phone. They aren't willing to give him more than that and he doesn't even get to talk to them every day. Compared to missing all that, my coping with their unhappiness is actually a pleasure -- at least I get to know them.
And nobody ever stayed home because they were too guilty to bust loose if that was what they wanted to do.
RPP,
I agree that they are missing so much. However, I think it can take quite a while for them to realize it. I think initially they are *excited* to be free and *the pressure is off* are common sentiments. I also think (and I'm not a therapist although I play one with friends) that for some, they are trying to run from the responsibilities. Those folks may not even stop to *realize* they are missing out. That's got to be a difficult life to live. However, they still are missing out.
Like I say, it's not a contest. However, I love being there for my kids. I hate to see them hurt and confused to their dad's behavior. However, I have zero control over him. I just remind them that I'm here for them and that we both love them very much. As my kids' IC says, their Dad loves them to the best of his ability.
Good morning DB-ers. This weekend I was away at a soccer tournament with D16 while H stayed home with D11. I know they had a good time together, and I enjoyed some alone time, too. We got home last night and had a family dinner. Today is back to routine, so there's not a lot to report.
Georgiabelle and Maybell, thanks for your input. I know you are right, I just need to hear it sometimes. It's too easy to second-guess myself alone. I appreciate you guys!
I'm finding more and more that I'm ready for him to move out. All along, my real issue with it has been telling the kids, and I'd still really prefer that H magically snap out of his MLC and stay. But I've resigned myself to the fact that he's going to walk and I'm growing weary of guessing when. This morning he made a reference to "looking at real estate" and mentioned that he had seen pictures of the house we owned before this one because it's for sale again. We can't afford to buy that house back (as a second house), not sure why he was looking at it, but I stuck to some comments on what they had done with the bathroom and left it at that.
H just texted that he has dinner out. Again. I'm trying to be grateful that he bothered to tell me and not wonder where he will be. Trying......sigh.....
This is why I sometimes think it would be easier if he moved out. He's gonna do what he's gonna do, but if he didn't live with me I wouldn't have to see it.
And another thing.....I used to never question that every dinner out was a legitimate business function. Stupid maybe, but I really believed he was being faithful and I didn't worry about it. Now, however, even if he came begging at my feet for forgiveness tomorrow (I wish!), I'd wonder every time he had a dinner out. Even if he was truly being faithful, I'd always wonder. I am willing to forgive, but not sure I'd truly ever have peace of mind again.
I worry about the same thing. How will I trust again? Will I have to detach forever - and is that a good quality of life?
Shouldn't, at some point, I be able to care where she is and ask and believe?
Forgiveness seems to come easier than trust for me.
Hi All, one more day of journaling without a lot to tell. Yesterday after work I did the school pickups, had basketball practice for my team, made dinner, did laundry and house stuff, regular day. H was out for dinner again, and then did a fantasy football draft, rolled in about 11pm. I had already gone to bed and although I heard him come in did not get up and strike up a conversation. This morning interaction was brief as he's still asleep when I get up and only got up as we were on our way out the door. In some ways this is typical of life before BD, we were just on different schedules, and it probably contributed to the demise of the M. But I can't make him come home earlier or get up earlier, and I have very little choice in my schedule, the kids have to get to school, and I have to get some sleep in order to wake up at 5:30am every day.
H and I used to meet for lunch occasionally, sometimes for actual food, sometimes at home. But before BD he had turned me down the last several "lunch" invitations I issued, but I didn't know why, just thought he was actually busy. At this point, I don't think there's much way to coordinate weekday schedules better, but it's something I'd want to address in any future relationship with H or someone else.
So...journaling about my limbo life again. Yesterday after work I picked up D16 from school, took her to the doctor, went grocery shopping, dropped her and groceries at home, went to pick up D11, took her shoe shopping, stopped by the pharmacy, went home and got dinner started, exercised at home. H shows up ay 7:30, which was fairly early for him and we all had dinner together. That's my life on rinse and repeat. The evening was spent cleaning up the kitchen, helping D11 with her evening routine, etc. Absolutely nothing special, no great interaction with H, but nothing bad, either.
I used to be happy with my vanilla pudding life. And maybe I still am, it's comfortable and pretty easy. But what if I could snuggle on the couch with someone? What if we talked about our 5 year plans? What if we were looking at travel brochures for our upcoming 25th anniversary? Wouldn't that be nice?
Yes! That would be nice and is all I want too.
And just to be clear, I'm never going to get any of that wish list with H. We didn't do that before. There's very little reason to suspect he would ever do it going forward.
rppfl -
I don't know if I would say you're never going to get those things going forward....If you never state that those are important things to you, then you won't get them. Clearly now is not the right time to have that conversation...
I don't know. I guess I believe that right now things are all about the WAS. We have to detach and hang on for the ride. But AT SOME POINT they need to be accountable for what broke and WE need to be accountable for our needs. Otherwise - what's the point?
I think that if we're standing then things like snuggling on the couch can't be a goal, but the trip could be. What if you went on one by yourself or with a friend? Not to be mean to H, but to show him that it's something that you want to do? Sometimes there's a moment of, "I never knew you wanted that!"
My H took me on an awesome trip to Europe for our 10th anniversary. For our 15th he wanted to go back, and I said sheepishly, "I'd really rather go...." It was VERY unlike me to steer the ship in another direction, but we did go to this other place. He liked it so much we've gone every year since.
So - remember. Some of this is about our own growth. You don't need H to go on a trip.
Can you plan a weekend away with some girlfriends?
Yes! Do those things that h wouldn't do or you thought he wouldn't do. That's what moving forward and living your life is about.
Don't spend every night cleaning the kitchen, do a hobby that you never felt you had the time for. The kitchen will get cleaned at some point.
Many times we lock ourselves in. You have the key.
labug, I have considered this, because I was definitely "blindsided". And it's not that I thought the M was perfect, I was aware that it could have been better. BUT I very sincerely thought that vows would never be broken. I really did. I assumed that if H were unhappy, he'd have actually said something to me instead of turning to an A. The timeframe that he now says he was "unhappy" seemed and played out an awful lot like the rest of the years that he was "happy". Yes, I was blindsided.
So what do you do with that information now?
What is the reality?
labug, I love this question, and I have moved it over to my own thread because I think the answer might be long and rambly.
So what do I do with the fact that I was blindsided?
Truth is, I wasn't happy either, I had just chosen not to do anything about it. And apparently an unhappy W makes an unhappy H, at least contributes to it. That would be lesson one. That if I'm not happy, chances are good that he isn't either and I need to do something about that.
Another lesson I have learned here is that I need to be more open in a relationship, express my own needs more, ask for what I want. I have always been closed off, it's my nature, it's how I was raised. Pair that with the fact that H is closed off too and it's a disaster in the making. He rarely shared his needs with me, and didn't respond well when I tried to express mine.
I clearly remember one night in a restaurant where I was trying to express a desire to change careers to something I thought would be more family-friendly. H totally wouldn't listen to me, shut me down completely. I teared up, he got angry at my tears. I never brought the topic up again and have the same job today as I did then. Now, the reason I say that is not to incriminate H, but to show how easily I shut down. I can give dozens more examples that show how poorly I have expressed myself over the years. I need to break out of my comfort zone on this, and I actually have been making an effort to express myself more with H. It may not make a difference to him at this point, but it's a skill I need to develop.
I don't know what else, labug. Do you think there's something I'm missing here?
Rppfl -
I hear you. I am terrible at communicating my needs, and have been happy to go along with "good enough" for a long, long time.
That is what I need to work on for me.
At some point, you and your H made each other happy. Do you remember what that was like?
Rppfl -
At some point, you and your H made each other happy. Do you remember what that was like?
MLP, I'm going to say something really horrible here. My R with H ALWAYS fell into the "good enough" range. So why marry him? Because I was looking long-term, I thought we would be great friends and companions when we were older. We share a lot of values, have the same outlook on raising kids, money management, we see eye to eye on a lot of things. We are great partners. I did love him a great deal, and I still do, but to say that I was madly in love when we married might not be true.
I had more intimacy and better s*x with previous boyfriends. I let that slide because H always brought up our s*x life as one of the real positives in our R, even at MC the same day he complained about my closet. He was happy with it, and I was willing to put up with "good enough" to the detriment of "great" because I thought there was a long-term reason to do so.
I need to go think about this......
Well, folks, I feel like I just melted down all over the boards today. Thank you for your patience and input. I do have something to share but it can wait until morning.
RPP,
Nothing wrong with a little meltdown provided you enjoyed a little ice cream with it. Your posts have been very insightful today. It will get better:-). Sending you lots of positive energy!
I like to think that our meltdowns happen at the same time that we're having a growth spurt.
Hugs, my FL Friend...
(Important question: Gator, 'Nole, or 'Cane?)
Good morning, friends! Thanks for your support yesterday. I vented a lot of things that I've been denying for a very long time. I think that's a good thing.
(Important question: Gator, 'Nole, or 'Cane?)
Well, MLP, that is an important question. I personally am none of the above, my undergrad is from a different SEC school and that's where my loyalties lie. My S18, however, just finished his second week as a Gator, so if I'm choosing from the above list, that's what I'll go with. ;-)
Yesterday was a pretty standard day all in all. Work, school pickups, volleyball game, basketball practice. H did step up and meet a contractor at the house that I had planned to meet because D16 had a little emergency I had to take care of. After dinner I helped D11 bake cupcakes for a school friend's birthday and we had a good time together.
In the middle of the afternoon/evening routine, though, I checked my email and saw that H had replied to our previous conversation about sharing time with D11. (Heaven forbid we have an actual conversation, let's email everything!) He had originally suggested a week with mom/a week with dad, to which I said no and suggested every other weekend with dad. He totally backed off and agreed to my plan. As a concession, I suggested that he also take her for dinner on Thursday nights and then maybe eventually that could become an overnight also so that when it's his weekend he has a longer block with her. One of the Ls I consulted suggested that schedule and I think it's fair. I would like to take this slowly over the separation period so that if we get to the point of a legal agreement things are already working.
I asked him if he had found a place, and he gave me a lengthy reply as to how hard it was to find a 3-bedroom place in our neighborhood at a reasonable price. Yes, it is. And I don't feel sorry for him at all, we have a large lovely home that he's welcome to stay in. I didn't reply to that portion of the email at all.
All in all, I'm feeling more positive today, happier. I know things come in cycles and that there are more bad days to come. But I'm going to enjoy today.
You go! Enjoy today!!
And Go Gators!
RPP,
I grew up just outside of Nole land but my degree came from another big school. No allegiance to any of those 3
Sometimes they do seek sympathy. Regardless of how they behave and what they call you, they do know you and think you want to hear their issues. Smile and nod is my response. I offer no solutions or suggestions because well, I ruined his life according to him. Offered no support. Offered too much support. Doubted him. Yawn. You get the pic. That's why neutral responses or no responses frequently work best.
Hope the day goes well!
Yawn. (LOL!)
Yes....I need to PRACTICE the neutral response!!!!!
Hope everyone has a good day!
(Not a Gator myself, but my grandfather was a professor there, so....my allegiance to the big school down there is Florida...)
Today I updated the separation agreement for a few things: child sharing for D11; dropped the provision that H and I needed to schedule regular dates (which he had balked at); and added myself to the provisions regarding dating others. I have no intention of dating anyone else while I'm married, totally not right for me, but I thought I'd move myself into the same category of rules that I've asked H to play by. Since he's having an A, that primarily consists of not exposing the spouse and/or kids to the A, since that's totally disrespectful. No response from H so far.
Heading out to the gym, and then a party for D11's volleyball team.
RRPL,
What...did you put "dating" in your SA??! Did I read that right? If so, I can see why H balked at that line.
You CANNOT control H.
What you can do is put in a boundary that he cannot text/talk about OW or whatnot in front of you, around the house, or near you.
These two are different things.
Wonka! Glad you stopped by. Yes the original agreement had a dating provision. That came from MC who said something along the lines of " you have to rub two sticks together to see if they'll catch fire". That's the part I took out, I actually rewrote it a while back but hadn't had the opportunity to present it to H until today. I am nstructable.
I like to think that our meltdowns happen at the same time that we're having a growth spurt.
“…feelings like disappointment, embarrassment, irritation, resentment, anger, jealousy, and fear, instead of being bad news, are actually very clear moments that teach us where it is that we’re holding back. They teach us to perk up and lean in when we feel we’d rather collapse and back away. They’re like messengers that show us, with terrifying clarity, exactly where we’re stuck. This very moment is the perfect teacher, and, lucky for us, it’s with us wherever we are.” Pema Chodron
I encourage everyone to at least skim through When Things Fall Apart by Pema. I keep a copy close at hand and read a bit when I need a reminder to lean in not cower and back away.
Thanks, labug, I ordered the book from the library.
So, weekend was fine, nothing special. H spent a large chunk of Saturday at "Home Depot" and I did house chores that I don't get to during the week.
Sunday morning was fine, H didn't get struck by lightning standing front and center at church and didn't choke on the communion bread he baked with D11. Sunday evening we had some friends over and had a nice time.
Time marches on......
Sunday morning was fine, H didn't get struck by lightning standing front and center at church and didn't choke on the communion bread he baked with D11. Sunday evening we had some friends over and had a nice time.
Time marches on......
Keep this sassy rpp, I like her.
What are you doing for you? (you can answer in your new thread)