Hi All, First poster here. Tried to post this a couple of days ago but is seems not to have gone through…(or is stuck in moderation). Came across this forum a couple of weeks ago and have just ordered DR (read SSM previously). So great to see a community of people devoted to supporting each other as we all navigate these uncertain times. Hoping I too can find and offer support here as I travel forward….
Current sitch: Early stages of S - H moved out on 2 June 2014. I'd been unhappy in our relationship for the last 6 months or so, largely because H had become withdrawn from R and I was feeling really stuck because H keeps delaying decision to start a family (in hindsight I now see why). H agreed to go to MC in mid-April - said he wanted to go "to support me". However, over the next few sessions: (1) H announced that he'd been unhappy for years (never said that to me previously…in as many words at least), (2) said he felt the relationship was a "black hole", that there was just work and relationship and nothing else in his life (that's sort of true… he sustained a back injury 12 months ago which meant he wasn't able to surf or play ultimate frisbee...the 2 hobbies he used to pursue outside of our R), (3) he didn't know who he was anymore, (4) he wants more fun (fewer chores), more passion/connection. I was surprised to learn all this…but somewhat relieved that the cat was out of the bag. Time to get to work on improving things…after all I want many of the same things.
But…by mid-May he announced he needed some space to figure things out and that we should separate. I was floored and flipped-floppd between being needy (we can work things out!) and trying to be calm. We discussed a little of the terms of the separation - agreed on how to handle finances etc but disagreed on dating. He said he wanted to date other people…so that he could know what it would be like to be with other people (he's only been in one other relationship; he's my only relationship). I asked if there was an OW, he said not and I have no evidence to the contrary. I dropped the issue and tried to show support for the idea of separation - to enable us to "reset". Things had deteriorated badly at home with him retreating to the other bedroom or staying out late, so space seemed necessary at this point. He signed a 12 month lease but reinforced that it was easy to get out of if needed. On the night before he moved out we had a good discussion - he said we would plan to meet every 2 weeks and he spoke a little of other things that are bothering him. He feels stuck in his "sales" job and wants to do a short sale on the investment property that he purchased and we renovated together several years ago (underwater mortgage). (MLC? Is it even helpful to put a label on it?)
Two days later, at the MC, it went downhill fast as we tried to set clearer terms for the separation. In terms of communication: having apparently over-stepped the line by inviting him to breakfast a few days earlier (not giving him enough space), I said I would contact him for emergencies only; he said it would be ok to call if there were things on in town that we could do together (confusing?) In terms of contact: he re-stated that we would catch up every 2 weeks. In terms of dating: he re-stated that if the opportunity were to arise he would like to date other people; I said I thought that would be hard to recover from, that it would be unfair to me and the OW and that I did not intend to date other people in the short term. Then the MC chimed saying: H wants to have his cake and eat it too, didn't see the point in us meeting every 2 weeks or continuing with MC, and asked if we'd considered a legal separation (wait, what?) We argued outside the MC - I felt that the whole thing had just gone from 0 to 100km. We did make a loose agreement that we would take 3 months and re-evaluate after that though I'm still not sure if that was really set in stone.
Post-separation: I went to Uganda for work for 2 weeks after H moved out. We've only seen each other twice since: (1) Mutual friend's farewell party - I tried to be friendly and not initiate R talk, though I think he brought it up first. He said he "doesn't want to be alone but that he doesn't want to be unhappy either." He thanked me for giving him space, seemed angry and stressed (said it was the most stressed he'd been in the 3 weeks since he moved out). I learned he is doing yoga to de-stress! (2) He came over to pick up more things from the house. He wanted to come by after 7pm. I was cursing myself since I'd previously said I'd like to be at the house whenever he comes by to pick things up (he still has keys). So I was feeling rather helpless when I sent a text back saying I was heading out of town for a few days, can he come by before 1pm. Much to my surprise he did come over before 1pm. No R talk. He asked if there was anything we needed to talk about. I said not. He wished me a good trip and said happy birthday for the upcoming Thursday. He still seemed angry and seemed not to make eye contact as much as usual (?) He never sent a text or called on my b'day which hurt a lot.
So that's the story on the R front. As far as how I am doing, I am giving him space and not initiating contact. So far I am finding this easier to do than I imagined (my stubbornness may be an asset here). I have days where I feel like I am a sitting duck…waiting for him to get into a new relationship, if he hasn't already. Other days I question if I want this relationship. Yet other days where all I want is to be able to hold his hand again or spoon in bed. Almost all days I am analyzing, analyzing which is a problem (and something I am prone to do given my line of work). I have been doing yoga regularly ever since mid-April and have started getting into mindfulness meditation to try to settle my mind and develop my compassion for others. I have been out with a few new friends and am exploring options for volunteering to meet more people. I have a plan to move out of our (rental) house at the end of the lease period (end Oct) and into my own place. I think I am doing ok…today at least. I'd like to be tackling more of the relationship issues head on, but know I can't until and unless H decides to try again.
The one thing that concerns me at this stage is the limited contact by him 6 weeks into the separation. Most people on this forum seem to have at least some communication from their spouse. I'm not sure if this is because most people are further along in the process? We don't have kids, don't own any property together, and have separated our finances….so there is no reason for regular contact unless we want it. What did communication look like for others on this forum 6 weeks into physical separation?
Read my story, no kids, no house, nothing like that to keep us talking. Im at 7 weeks right now. You might be surprised how fast changes can happen.
Thanks, Ben. Yes I think I have come across your story. I'll head on over for another read. I am certainly surprised by how quickly things can be dismantled, that's for sure!
No news to report here. No contact in 3 weeks (not even texts) and still waiting for DR to arrive in the mail! Meanwhile keeping busy and GAL.
Ugh, weekends are tough. I don't think I ever appreciated just how much being around H made me feel like I was doing something. Now just sitting around the house feels like just that. I need to find me some "at home" hobbies. On the plus side I just sent off a bunch of emails about volunteering opportunities.
Well….eight weeks in to our separation - 3 weeks ZERO contact - and H initiated contact by phone! Amusingly techmology failed me so I didn't realize he called until 24 hrs later. Probably good as I might have pounced on the phone otherwise!
So before I called back tonight I wrote a few things down:
- Listen and validate H feelings
- No relationship talk unless he brings it up
- H is an independent person - he makes decisions based on his wants and needs
- Be the woman only a fool would leave
Did 10mins meditation, some power posturing (odd combination) and drew a big STOP sign to refer to in case things headed south in my head. All this for someone I've lived with for 15 years!
Call lasted 2 minutes. His tone was friendly (and I hope mine was too). He said there were 2 things he was calling about:
(1) H asked if I wanted to get together next Wed night for a drink to catch up and talk about things. I said sure…but then realized (thinking to myself) I will possibly be taking on a volunteer role on Wed nights starting next week. So I said I'll have to get back to him about times on Thurs or Fri this week because I have an "interview thing" tomorrow night and won't know til then if I'm available on Wed next week.
(2) He mistakingly thought I RSVP'd to a documentary night thing that his friend hosts and that we used to go to together. Not sure where that was going….but I nipped it in the bud and said I didn't know anything about it.
Tempted as I was to ask how things were at his end I let the call end there with him saying "good luck with your interview thing" on closing.
Pretty happy with this breakthrough! Hope DR arrives soon so that I can be more prepared for next week. Will try to jot some thoughts down in the meantime…
Welcome Shebon. So sorry that you have to be here!
Sounds like you're doing a great job. DR is fantastic - if for no other reason that YOU will start to feel like a whole person again. (It does sounds you're doing a great job!)
Thanks, MLP. I have ups and downs like everyone else. My head is going into overdrive given the prospect of catching up with my H for the first time since we separated. In some ways, although I've been trying to put a bit of a WORK ON ME plan into action, I don't really feel like I've had an opportunity to test it out yet given the no contact. Have I changed? I'm not so sure. I'm definitely trying to do more for me outside of work and I do think my thinking has changed A LOT. Whether or not I am wearing these changes on the outside I just don't know. But I suppose that's not the point...
So I've been ruminating over the things that I think were problematic in our relationship and my contributions to it. Our stint in MC ended so quickly with him moving out that it didn't really shed much light on his perspective.
This is what I have so far:
- co-dependency (too much emphasis on "us", at the expense of individual identity and fulfillment outside of work. I've not done a much as I could to have my own friends and interests, and sometimes I've been jealous/mistrusting when H has pursued his)
- lack of shared goals/common purpose for marriage (I think this relates in part to the above - without independent goals it's been hard to have shared goals for our life together)
- my relationship with my work (while I did a lot to ensure that I didn't bring work home [no work email on phone, rarely pulled out work computer on home time], I continued to bring work related stress home and depended on H - not me - to manage this stress)
- my "fiesty" communication style (I value that I am open, direct and courageous in my communication but I interrupt too much and this comes at the expense of reflection and hearing what is being said. I sometimes feel out of control of what I say and regret it later, especially during arguments)
- his stonewalling (still reading up on this to understand my contributions)
- sex and affection (M wasn't sexless but we were both left wanting. I didn't understand his wants, he didn't understand mine. In reading more post BD, I now think we might be the same love language but different dialect, with different emphasis on non-sexual vs sexual physical contact)
And this is my WORK ON ME plan to address the above (for now):
- Learn to take better care of myself emotionally (DOING: meditation, yoga)
- Build social network and GAL outside work (DOING: volunteering applications in, meetup groups joined)
- Learn to be a better listener (DOING: just started reading Non Violent Communication by Rosenberg)
Other suggestions?
Well DR finally arrived yesterday so I am getting my reading on…
There's been a bit of back and forth with H via email to arrange a time to meet. Trying not to read too much into his initial lack of reply to my reply about availability. I had to send a follow up a couple of days later to see that he got the message. Anywho, meeting up next Tuesday for a drink.
I'm getting anxious that he'll break some bad news….but then if he wanted to do that would he suggest a public place? I really have to work through how I might respond if he says something I don't want to hear (I know, validate). Everything just feels so contrived right now. I hate it!
Hi ganb8te! Thanks for checking in on my situation, I've finally found your thread and yeah we have a lot in common. (unfortunately!)
My H too asked to meet up (after a few weeks of separation) and all I could think was that he wanted to tell me something bad. Turns out I was wrong, but it could have been that way for sure! He did say some things I didn't like, but that wasn't his reason for meeting. I think he simply missed me and was curious about what I was up to.
The advice I got from Ben2010 was great. Just go into it with a positive attitude. Definitely prepare yourself for bad news as well, with a plan for what to do/say if it turns the wrong way. But otherwise plan to have a nice time, look good and enjoy talking with your H.
It sounds to me like you are doing great, being very strong and taking control of your life. Keep us posted on what happens!!!
Hugs, Lisa
Thanks, Lisa. I agree that positive but prepared is the way to go. Part of this journey for me is really starting to see us both as individuals (sounds stupid, but I think that was lacking before….I was too focussed on the R…the big 3-5, babies and all). I've come some length to understanding that he may (of his own accord) come to the conclusion that our M isn't what he wants. I actually think I accept this now. But gee, I'd really like the opportunity to try this M thing again with this new insight. Of course it may all fall apart when I am sitting across the table from him next week if he tells me some bad news!
You are so much more in control than I am! We (H and I) have the same problem of not seeing ourselves as individuals, and I am having a hard time doing it still... and also accepting that he might stick with his idea that M is not what he wants. Well, he has only told me that 50 million times but I still can't accept it. I'm admiring you!
Lisa - listen to the "Headspace on…Relationships" podcast. It's about relationships in general, not our particular situations but it helped me get in to a better mindset.
https://soundcloud.com/search?q=andy%20puddicombe (look for the Relationship one from the list)
I'm using the Headspace app to meditate - loving it!
Thanks ganb8te! Looking it up now!
Well, tomorrow is the big day. First real meet up with H since he moved out in early-June. It feels like the last couple of weeks have taken FOREVER!
Oh ganb8te, I can only imagine how interminable the last few weeks have felt. I hope that the meeting tomorrow goes as smoothly as can be expected. Do you know the purpose? Is it just to catch up with each other?
Either way, I'll be thinking of you tomorrow! (Although based on the time zone difference, I'll probably be asleep when your meeting takes place!)
Just back from the BIG EVENT. Could really use some feedback and suggestions. Vets?
This is the first time we've had any contact in weeks (and first real meet up up since we separated). I greeted him with an awkward kiss on the cheek.
The first half was just catch up. The usual (how's work, how's family etc). He shared a little of what he was up to. On the whole he seems busy at work and just doing the same (surfing, ultimate frisbee). He's been sick with the flu a big chunk of the time. I tried to be light and PMA as I talked about what I was up to. Tried to mention the things I was doing outside work, since that was something that bugged him (me and my relationship with my work…something I am working on….for me). At one point I'm sure I caught him glancing at my finger and noting that I wasn't wearing my ring (I took it off just before out meeting…he doesn't wear his).
Then we went into deeper territory….His brother had a baby last week and there have been complications. I expressed my sadness at this and asked him to pass on my regards. Then I shared that my Uncle had passed away (came as quite a shock to the family). He expressed his sadness and asked me to send on his regards.
Then came R talk (he brought it up). He wants to forge ahead with separating our remaining bank accounts, paying off remaining joint credit cards etc. He said he feels sad about the way things are. Makes him sad seeing me. I asked "How so?"….then thought crap, validation moment…correction..."I mean I know what you mean, but I was just asking because I'd like to know what that means to you?" (not the best recovery). He elaborated a bit on the fact that we'd been together a long time. He said separation has been good and he's glad that I am happy. I said I wanted him to be happy to (which kind of acknowledged that he's not currently happy…even with us being separated). I agreed separation has been good - brought some new perspective. And then I did it….not sure if this was a poor choice…but I felt like maybe he was thinking I'd moved on and sometimes in the past he has said things that hints that he feels guilty about holding me back. I said something to the effect of "Just so you know….yes, I am doing ok…but my preference would be for us to find our way back to each other." He said something to the effect that he didn't share that perspective (maybe he said yet or right now?) He reinforced that he wasn't asking me to wait for him.
He asked about what my plans were re the rental house. I told him I planned to move at the end of August/mid-Sept and we had some discussion around what to do with the furniture etc. He asked me to be in touch when I firmed up dates and offered to help going through stuff. He decided to go before I had a chance to leave first. He did come round the table and touch my arm as he left.
Questions/random thoughts:
1. I feel dreadful about the news about his brother's bub. We weren't super close but I would have wanted them to know that I was thinking about them and wishing them well. Thoughts on whether to contact them? (No one from his family have been in touch with me since we split…but then he's not that close with his family and I'm not that sure what he's told them).
2. In reading DR, I never did get a sense of whether it was good/bad/otherwise to let spouse know what we want (i.e that we want to work on our marriages). I've maintained NC for a good 2 months now so I don't think I am overdoing the pursuing thing. Should we make our position known to separated spouse while DB or no?
3. H did not offer up much opinion/feelings in which case it is hard to validate. It's like I have to ask a question so that he shares an opinion/feeling (but I'm weary of that since I know he sometimes gets annoyed when I ask questions). It almost would have been easier for him to announce that he wanted a divorce because then I could have said "that's not what I want, but I know you have been unhappy for a long time so I can see why you might feel that way" (note D for was not mentioned…but we need to be separated for 12 months before we can file here).
4. I'm assuming next step is more NC and GAL. I'm doing fine on those fronts. I can move on if I have to…but I'm not sure that this current approach is taking the R in the direction that I want. H seems sad…seems to recognize that I am happy and doing well…but currently wants to continue down path of separation. Is there something else I can throw into the mix? (More patience is probably they obvious answer).
Hi ganb8te,
it sounds like you handled this first meeting well! And it also sounds like your H is saying a lot of the same types of things as mine.
I don't really get how they are sad but still sure this is what they want.
I'll be interested to hear what the vets have to say to you. I could use some advice of this kind myself.
How do you feel? Did you feel happy to see him, sad? Did it make you upset? I know after the first meeting with my H as soon as I left I became extremely nauseous.
I hope you are doing well and feeling strong!
Hugs, Lisa
Thanks, Lisa. Yeah…I think I called it when I read the letter your H wrote to you (at that time I said I figured I'd hear something similar in the future).
I think I did ok…held it together at least. I just wish there were more opportunities to show my genuine interest in his perspective on things. But then this has always been an issue in our M. His best mate (childhood friend) told me - when he learned we were going to MC - that "it's hard for guys to open up about their feelings, and I think it is harder for your H than most….so you have your work cut out for you."
I did feel happy to see him….but I'm sad by the circumstances if that makes sense. Nausea hasn't set in yet but I did experience that early one so I know exactly what you mean.
I'm in a weird space right now. I don't feel particularly emotional about the situation…but still quite sure that I want our M to work out (=detachment?) I don't feel that swayed by his position, even as he reinforced it tonight (maybe I did a little in the moment, but I don't 2 hours later). I feel ok just doing my own thing…and remaining open to welcoming him back into my life if he choses to work on things with me. Maybe sometime in the future someone else will come along and change that path for me, but for now I'm steering the spaceship on the same course.
I bet I sleep easier than him tonight!
It sounds like you handled the conversation really well! I don't think it was a mistake to tell him that your preference would be to work on the R. You haven't talked to him two months. If he thinks you've closed the door completely, then he may decide it's not worth trying to open it again.
Thanks, Elsa. Yes, on thinking it through I tend to think that it was good to let him know that the path back home would be an "easy" one if he chose it. I don't regret it this morning (which is always a good litmus test).
I'm do feel a bit more sad this morning. I just don't know what to do to get us into different territory. It seems like I need to try something different - NC for 2 months seems to have done naught to his perspective on things. I suppose I need to wait and see if this meet up changes the course of events in any way…but I'm doubtful.
I'd really love it if folks could weigh in. Going dark seems moot when he's also gone dark and not asking about me. We just don't have reason to be in contact unless we want it (no kids, etc). I want it…but I have not been initiating so to give him the space that he asked for and not to pursue. What else can I try?
Hi ganb8te,
Yeah I recall you saying that you felt connected to my story about my H's letter. It reminds me of a few months back, a friend of mine was suddenly dumped by her long term boyfriend. For some reason it really rattled me, of course I felt badly for her but it bothered me more than I would have expected. Now looking back I see that I must have felt some disturbance in my relationship and that was why her breakup scared me. I guess sometimes we just sense how things are going... I don't know.
I don't know if you have seen my rambling thread lately but I also have been questioning the benefit of dark/NC at this time. It doesn't seem to be exactly working the way I want it to. I decided that this week I will "try something different" and be more friendly. Maybe it is a dumb decision but I'm going to try it and see how it goes. I still won't be pursuing but I will make myself a bit more available to chat and be friendly when he contacts me. Maybe that will just make me more "boring" and friend-zone, we'll see!
I'm not sure how you can change it up if you don't want to be the one contacting him. Maybe someone else has good advice? It really depends on his personality. Did he usually initiate or did you always have to be the one reaching out? Someone mentioned the 5 LL. Do you know his? That might help? My H's is Quality Time I think, so going dark means I take that away from him which makes him sad and lonely, but perhaps fulfilling this need could also benefit us by bringing us closer.
What about asking for his help with something he is good at? That could also be another way to reach out without being super emotionally needy. You could try it without expectations and see how it goes. I was thinking of doing that as well, I actually mentioned something as an aside today and my H jumped at the chance to offer help. But I think there has to be no pressure, it has to be completely ok if he says no. And it should be something physical and not emotional support or help, in my opinion.
The other thing that has worked for me in the past is to casually suggest a shared activity that you both really like. Like let's say you are both into hiking, you could casually say "oh hey I am going hiking on this great trail, want to come?" again without pressure. Maybe he wouldn't join but maybe it would open up the possibility for next time. Just an idea, maybe all these are too pursuing.
While I don't envy the complicated situations of those with kids, it does make contact between the couple continue, which can give a chance to work DB.
I don't know if any of this babbling helps you at all. I'm wishing you the best and hope you can stay strong. It sounds like you are doing really well!
Hugs, Lisa B
Thanks, Lisa. Yes I picked up that you were questioning things (whether you want the R even). I'll be curious to hear how things go with your new approach.
My biggest difficulty is that I rarely get the opportunity to BE light and friendly around him. There's been close to zilch interaction (not even texts). The few conversations we've had since he left, he's ended up steering the conversation towards R talk or rather practical issues related to R (closing accounts etc). I'm being friendly enough but it's just all too serious and practical. Funnily enough, this was one of his complaints about our M - and here he is making it this way.
So I think you are right, I may need to find a way to reach out in some small ways. Maybe around an activity rather than a conversation. I don't think we're ready for some sort of social outing but maybe there is a way to ask him for help around the house or something.
Anyone out there tried anything like this?
Well the communication over practical matters continues. H just sent a text about needing my details to complete his tax return. On the plus side - he initiated contact again. Question is - why is the person who always leaves it to last minute doing it 2.5 months early? In the past this was a source of frustration to me. Is there some way to do a 180 and validate him here?
Hard to keep this thread anywhere near top when I've got so little to post! For me, NC by me equates to NC with H. No texts, no calls. I'm guessing others are in my boat but those threads disappear as well.
It's been a rollercoaster of a week. Meeting with H last week put me into a negative spiral. In the absence of any contact from him, I think I'd allowed myself to dream that he had broken his silence to announce he wanted back in. Alas when that was not to be, things came a crashing. Barely made it out of bed on Sunday - but it was cold and rainy out so not entirely enticing either. On the plus side I caught up on Train's story and started reading Passionate Marriage which looks like it will offer some new perspectives on the whole "we're not independent enough" side of things.
But as roller coasters go - I decided on the Sunday night to respond to his text about my tax details with a phone call rather than a reply text (testing things out a bit, apropos by posts above). It went through to vm but he called back the next morning. I was driving so let it go through to my vm. He lefts a message saying something to the effect of "Fine to just send the details through by text. I just said we were married on the tax return because we're not legally separated." I had a query about what he needed and by when so texted back that I would call in 20 mins if that was ok. He agreed and so I called him back. Conversation was cordial. He elaborated on the marriage comment (to the effect of) "we're not legally separated and he couldn't be bothered looking into the rules." So that was a positive discovery - he didn't go through with the legal separation following the suggestion of the MC in our last session. I asked about his brother's baby (situation is improving thank goodness) then we ended it and he signed off with "Bye, hon". Now I am sure that was just a slip of the tongue, but frankly, given the way I felt the last week I'll take it! If nothing else it means he's feeling a bit more relaxed when we talk which is good.
So…after a bad week I'm now feeling a bit more chipper, especially after returning from tonight's GAL activity. I'll sit tight for a bit but it seems that reaching out ain't a bad thing in my case. The question is…is it a good thing?
Wow. Who knew that the human body was capable of such crazy shifts in perspective?!
I was just sitting here getting angry at my H for walking out on the M, thinking I'm almost done. But then moments later there was reference to the Sinead O'Conner song "Nothing Compares to You" on the TV and those lyrics put be over…I'm no where near done.
Argh. Lost a couple of posts when the board was down. Thanks to Elsa for her (lost) reply.
Quick recap:
- just coming up on 3 months physical separation. When we separated he said he had been "unhappy for years", "didn't know what was going to happen," "there was no OW" but he wanted to "date other people if the opportunity came up"
- I've had very limited contact with H during this time both in the flesh and via e-means (close to cold turkey). H is an avoider so NC works well for him
- we had a loose agreement that separation would last 3 months, though exactly what was supposed to happen at 3 months wasn't really clear
- the 1 time we did meet up (he initiated, 2 wks or so ago) he said he was glad that I seemed happy, said it made him sad to see me because of all the history we shared but volunteered little else. I didn't ask any questions but did end up saying that my preference was still to find a way back together. He said that "separation was a good decision" and he "wasn't asking me to wait for him"
- brief phone call after that in which I learned that he never went through with the legal separation following the suggestion of the MC in our last session
In my last (lost) post I mentioned I was toying with the idea of asking him for a meet-up to discuss where we are at 3 months down the line. I drafted an email but haven't sent it and I continue to have second thoughts about it. Truth be told I decided to try a lighter approach and broke NC last night with a quick text to see if he wanted to get a drink. That was a bit of a test. A few posts ago I was questioning if I should do a 180 and reach out to him given that NC didn't seem to get me anywhere. He declined and didn't offer up an alternative date…so I'll take that as a no.
So here is the thing, I'm 3 months out and I got nothing. I have no idea:
- if he's seeing a councillor to try to work through things (as he said he would)
- if he's "dating" someone (I agree, highly plausible)
- if he consider's our marriage already ended and wants me out of his life for good
- if he needs more time to make a decision
In other words, R talk. I know, I know. R talk is a DB no-no but even my IC seems at a loss for what to do given the little we know of his perspective (we've even talked about inviting him to a session).
Is it unreasonable for me to want to have some sort of update about where things are at??? I really think H could avoid his way out of this to the point that things just fizzle out and he makes a later claim that we should D because there's been no meaningful interaction for so long.
And here's another complexity: when his parents separated in 2005 (when he was ~25) he cut off most contact with them. No one really gets why; there was no abuse or neglect (as far as we know). His siblings continue to have a good relationship with his parents. H contacts his parents once maybe twice a year, though he still interacts with his siblings.
So when I say he is an avoider, I mean he is an AVOIDER. He doesn't work through things. He is capable of being apathetic and walking away from people who love him. I'm not so sure that if I back off and stop the pursuit that he'll turn around and take notice. I've seen a few guys on the forum say that is the "male way" but I'm not sure that applies here. Then again, I watched his mum pursue for years and that got no where either.
So yeah, this whole DB thing feels a bit hopeless at times.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Is it unreasonable for me to want to have some sort of update about where things are at???
I have no idea what to suggest. His avoiding technique seems to be habitual and is stumping me as far as what to suggest.
I hope a vet will chime in and give you some good guidance.
Hi ganb8te, I wish I could give you some good advice! I don't know!
What a sh!tty situation.
So you went casual and invited him for a drink. Did he just say no, or did he say he was busy or what?
I feel like pushing R talk at this point will not be a good idea unless you are really ready for closure. Since you just met with him a few weeks ago and he wasn't ready to make a move I think it needs a bit more time. Maybe just a few weeks.
Any vets want to step in with some wisdom?
I think pursuing is not a good idea but I see what you mean about him avoiding.
Good luck my dear!
Hugs, Lisa
I don't think it is unreasonable to want to know where the R is headed. Three months is a long time with no plan and very little communication. If he'd said, at any point, that he wanted a D, I wouldn't reach out, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
But, I think Lisa has a good point. You saw him a few weeks ago, and he didn't seem interested in working on the R at that time. If you reach out now, will you push him into saying he's done? (Although personally, sometimes I wonder whether or not I'd really want to be with my H if merely asking for a status update pushes him that far away.) Or, as Lisa said, do you have a need for closure that outweighs that risk?
If you reach out, I would give a clear reason for seeking out the conversation. You could use the original "three month check-in" agreement as a starting off point, but are there any practical reasons you could give for why the conversation needs to happen soon? Maybe that will make it seem less emotionally involved for your avoidant H.
I feel for you. My H is also extremely avoidant. I have initiated most of the contact during our S and he seems fine with that. He told me recently that he feels the least anxious right after we talk -- and yet, he will almost never pick up the phone to call me. It's bizarre.
Thanks, ladies, for stopping by and also for putting out a call to the vets to chime in. It's interesting that there are a few of us LBW here who are all in their mid-thirties. I do feel like this age might be a bit of a cross roads for a lot of people.
I hear you telling me to be patient…I can do that, a least for a bit longer. I'm moving soon and so there will probably be good practical reasons to get in touch with him.
LisaB: the exact text response was "Thanks for the invite, but tonight does not work. Also, I sent an email about the joint account. Do you agree with the figures and are you ok with the transfer." So aside from not volunteering up an alternative date, he hassled me about having not responded to an email he sent THE PREVIOUS DAY. That email was in response to an email I sent 5 DAYS PRIOR providing info that HE REQUESTED vis a vis sorting out the remainder of our joint expenses and tax returns. So I thought I'd use his reply email to propose that we meet up. After he declined to meet up, I responded to his email 2 days later (it's not urgent stuff!) In addition to saying it was fine to go ahead with the transfer I added "I know this is a hard time for us both and I appreciate the effort you are going to to keep things cordial." Maybe that was unnecessary but with him rarely sharing his feelings I rarely get the opportunity to validate. When I did see him a few weeks ago he said he was sad about things so it seemed reasonable to acknowledge this in the email. I do think he's consciously trying to be polite. Thoughts?
Elsa: D is a funny one. Early on when he was still living in the house and I'd not found DB, I dropped the D word instead of S and he was adamant that "he never said he wanted that." At the time I think he might have been under the impression that one could file for D immediately (we have to be S for 12 months here before we can file). I can see him thinking that it takes some pressure off…he does't need to confront the issue now (and it makes him sad to see me so why put himself through it)…but then 12 months from now saying we haven't had any meaningful interaction so let's just D.
Reading over this I can see that I'm showing a few weaknesses (mind reading for one). It's just such a tough situation (no news there for any of you) but the avoidance and family history does add a different twist I think. I see on your thread, Elsa, that people keep advising you to stop initiating, but like you, I question where this will lead in our situations. Guess I will find out...
OK - so I won't contact him but I will use this forum as a place to keep working through my own thoughts on this. What if he thinks he's already communicated the end to me and I'm just not hearing it? When we met up 2.5 weeks ago he said "separation was a good decision" and he "wasn't asking me to wait for him". When I said that my hope was that we would still find a way back together he replied with "I'm not at that point (yet?)" (might carry a dictaphone to our next meeting so I can go back and analyze over and over - joke). Is it possible he could think that these statements clearly communicate his decision that this is the end? (Surely not?!)
I actually agree with the first statement since it has certainly brought some new perspectives (could we have achieved this while still living together - I think so, but there you go). As for the second statement, well I take that to mean that he feels guilty about what's going on and so by saying that he's not asked me to wait he's trying to relieve some of that feeling. I guess it does also convey that he thinks I am waiting for him…so that could be a problem from a DB perspective.
One of my new post-separation insights is that I missed important clues about his unhappiness because I was too focussed on trying to convey my thoughts on a situation rather than being more curious about the meaning in his words with a view to really understanding where he was coming from. I'd like to say that this is one of my 180s but I'm not having much opportunity to practice it given the limited communication. I didn't probe into the meaning behind those statements when we met because I think it would be too much right now and I was trying to avoid R talk.
Am I missing clues here?
G, it's crazy-making isn't it? Sometimes when I let my mind wander I wonder if we will EVER really understand each other because even if the communication is as transparent as it can be, we're still going to ascribe different meanings to the same words. And that's not just a problem with my H, but with (potentially) anyone.
If your H is avoidant, it's possible that he doesn't want to come out say, "It's over," and is trying to drop hints instead. But, for it's worth, my H has said similar things to me and YET he has consistently also said that he wants to work on the R (even if he needs some more time before he thinks he will be ready to do so).
"Separation was a good decision" could mean that he's enjoying being single, or that it's help him gain some clarity about the M and what he could do differently.
"I'm not asking you to wait for me" could be a subtle attempt to convey a lack of hope, or it could be guilt. My H said something very similar in the early days of our S. When I asked him about dating other people during the S, he said, "I don't want to or plan to, but I also don't feel like I'm in a position to tell you what to do because I'm leaving you." When I asked if my dating would end our R, he said, "No, it would actually be kind of validating if you dated other people and still wanted me in the end." A few days later I asked him about this and basically said, "You don't really think that, right?" He said, no, he absolutely didn't want me to date other people, but he also felt like he wasn't in a place to say that.
"I'm not at that point" could mean that he's done, or that he's not ready to reconcile.
I will also say that my H tends to phrase things in a way that sound awfully ominous, but then when asked for clarification it turns out that's not what he intended at all. It's actually something that our MC called him out on a few times. (An example: During our 1st session with the old C, when asked about his goal for MC, he said that he was "committed to the process" of therapy. To me, it sounded like he was willing to do MC but ambivalent about to the outcome. After the session, however, he told me that what he meant was that he has the best of intentions and he wants our M to work. The next week, the C expressed surprise that that's what he'd meant by the words he used.)
The problem is that really being able to understand someone else generally requires their participation. It's difficult with a WAH, that's for sure.
Thanks, Elsa. Makes be laugh (in a sad way) that you could provide a positive or a negative interpretation for each of those phrases. I agree - it's just so tough to know. I do hope that there will be some clarity at some point.
Let me ask you - does your H get annoyed when you ask questions? Mine does sometimes and it's frustrating because it is my honest attempt at trying to understand what he meant. I can probably work on my method (reading Non-Violent Communication for some ideas) but I really just wish he could give me the benefit of the doubt sometimes.
Yes, he is uncomfortable with questions and tends to accuse me of just not liking the answer he's giving. Upon reflection, I think sometimes he's right about that, but more often (especially now that I'm aware of his complaint) it's because I don't fully understand what he's said.
Another example: Our anniversary was a week after BD. He came over and we did an exercise from a Gottman book that our former MC recommended. As the conversation was winding down, I said, "So, I won't see you again for three weeks after tonight?" (Three weeks was the initial "break" he'd asked for during the S.) He said, "I think we'll play that by ear," and kind of smiled as he said it. So, I thought it was positive, but not entirely sure -- "play it by ear" could be mean that he might want more than three weeks, you know? I consciously chose not to ask him about it then, but a few days later I broke down and he confirmed that he meant it the positive way.
Our MC encouraged over-clarification. I remember asking my H in session, "How can I ask for clarification in a way that doesn't interfere with your need for less conflict," and I think his answer was something like, "We'll just have to see how it plays out." I feel like this is something that must be resolved in order to have a successful R.
Ok, ganb8te,
I've caught up on your thread. I agree that some more clarity from your H would possibly be useful. That said, don't push him for it. Stick with the counterintuitive nature of DBing and don't go for the R talk.
Keep showing him why he'd be a fool to leave you. At this stage, worry less about what you'll need to feel good about the R again and focus on what is working in regards to getting him through the fog. Try to stay out of the cheese less tunnels.
Be patient and stay strong!
Elsa - nice to get the validation from the MC regarding over-clarification. That would have been useful for H to hear I think. Sounds like we both need to work on trying to convey that we want to truly understand what our Hs are saying and learn to do that in a more loving way that they find less conflict-y. That or our Hs just need to get a grip and deal with it already!
Joe - thanks for stopping by. So far I'm not pushing but I am struggling to figure out what is working in regards to getting him through the fog. I have so little contact it's just so hard to know. I suppose one thing I did notice was the shift from anger in the initial couple of weeks (I saw him once at a mutual friends farewell party early on) to just general sadness when we met up at around the 9 wk mark.
Today marks 3 months since he moved out. In that time we've seen each other 3 times (once more for him to pick up his stuff in addition to the above) and he's initiated maybe 5 or so text conversations (all of a practical nature). Actually looking back the texts look more business like and cold now than earlier on.
In other news, I'm just back from my GAL activity (volunteering with Red Cross -> training to be a peer educator to support youth attending music festivals). Tonight - as I laughed away at the jokes the program manager was making - I found myself wondering if/when my H ever made me laugh like that. Will he ever again? And how old is the program manager anyway ;-)
It's just so hard to imagine that we can come back from here…
OK, pop quiz time. Preparation: my previous post regarding limited amount of contact in last 3 months.
1. I'm off to Tanzania for a week next week (for work). Do I:
A) Send a courtesy email to let him know I am away and hope he's doing well.
B) Not tell H. My international travel was a bit controversial in our R in any case (ironically because it was time away from my H and he didn't do well with that. I guess he was also worried).
C) Send a courtesy email to let him know I am away and let him know that he's welcome to stop by and pick up a box of things I have packed up for him in preparation for my move in a couple of weeks (He already know's I am moving though I've not told him the exact date. This would be a bit of a 180 because early on I said I wanted to be at the house when he was dropping by to pick up his things).
D) Other. Explain: ______________________________
Ganb8te, will you be incommunicado in Tanzania? If not then don't worry about sending a text. But you can if you like. Maybe the "excuse" of him picking up his stuff can be your reason. (funny how this parallels my current situation)
Maybe just say "Hi! I'm off to Tanzania for a week tomorrow. Just wanted to let you know in case you'd like to pick up your box while I'm away. Hope all is well!"
Don't know, maybe someone else has better feedback.
Hugs, Lisa
Isn't part of DB creating a sense of mystery and GAL'ing. I wouldn't tell him I was leaving. Let him wonder
Thanks DFE for the reminder about being mysterious. I guess that never feels very applicable in my case since he's not ever asking about my whereabouts. I may go to Tanzania, come back, and he'd be none the wiser.
Lisa, I will be incommunicado for some periods during the week. I guess that's why I feel that it would be courteous to let him know in case he were to get in contact with something urgent. We did agree to communicate if there's an emergency. Who knows if that still applies three months out.
I feel like I'm nothing to him right now. Whatever. I hate this!
Isn't part of DB creating a sense of mystery and GAL'ing. I wouldn't tell him I was leaving. Let him wonder
I vote this!
I agree with not saying anything. Maybe leave a note on the kitchen table saying you're on work travel in Tanzania in case he does stop by to get his stuff. I wouldn't even volunteer where you are when there unless you have to (like he asks where you are).
He needs some kind of wake up call. Maybe you vanishing will help.
OK Everyone. Reading you loud and clear. Thanks.
Sitting in Dubai International Airport en route to Tanzania. I never did tell H that I'm heading O/S.
I've been catching up on early labug posts while I wait to board. Really, really great reading over there. So much personal growth and soul work - I'm inspired. I'm also personally relieved to have found someone who was able to bring the R back from the dead despite having one of "those Hs" who just kinda disappeared after BD.
Hope everyone has a good week.
Well I made it back from Tanzania. A week in Maasai land certainly brings some perspective. Of course it all falls away when you are left only to your thoughts and mind-numbing movies on a 14hr return flight.
So, as expected, H is none the wiser that I've been away. No texts, vm or emails since I was gone. I did email him today as I found out I need to get his signature in order to terminate our lease. Yep - moving into my own digs on Sept 28. It's all becoming very real.
Right now I feel like I am only seeing the bad parts of my H (emotionally unavailable, avoider). They are pretty difficult qualities in a partnership. I think I used to tolerate those things as I was able to weigh them against the positives. It's getting hard to maintain that given the current circumstances…
Annoyingly, some of the work stuff that was stressing me out earlier in the year has reared it's head again. Early on in my thread I wrote about how one of our M issues is my relationship with my work (I brought work stress home and relied to much on H - not me - to manage it). I've been doing yoga and mindfulness meditation regularly to try to get myself to a calmer place but the recent resurfacing of the same old issues has made me realize I still need to do a lot more work. Or change workplace.
Must.not.make.any.drastic.decisions.
"Hi H, Hope you are doing well. I spoke with the real estate agent regarding terminating the lease. They require a signature from both of us to make the notice of termination effective. Please sign the attached letter and send back to me by Wednesday so that I can forward to XX. Fine for you to make changes. With thanks, G"
"Hi G, The signed ppwk is attached. Just let me know if when you would prefer me to collect the remainder of the items from the house. Kind Regards, H"
Thanks for that, H! On the one hand - great, I can can officially terminate our lease. On the other hand - these business exchanges are really not working for me!!! Makes me want to scream!
Questions:
1) One of the issues my H raised about our R was that there was "too much "admin", not enough fun". But, like, there are just some things we gotta do you know?! I'd love some feedback - could I have written my email differently to solicit a different response?
2) So how should I handle the move? He's taken 98% of his stuff. I'm bound to come across the other 2% when I pack up. As for the joint stuff, he isn't interested in any of it.
I just don't get it. My empathy tank is running low these days…
Oh ganb8te! "kind regards"????? ugh. I would want to punch him in the face!
It's difficult at this point knowing how to be less business and more fun since things between you are so distant.
The only thing I can think of is to reply and say something like "you can collect your items when you like, perhaps we can have lunch/dinner/drinks and catch up sometime soon!"
I find when my H sends a super cold business-like text if I reply with a friendly tone and using some exclamations he sometimes starts being more lively. But I get where you are coming from, why should you be all "Hey! How are you? Yipee!" when he is cold or non-communicative? I just find being really friendly seems to thaw the ice sometimes. It usually goes against how I actually feel (full of sadness, hate, and despair haha) but it seems to work for me better than being cold.
Probably someone has better advice...
Hugs, Lisa
G, I think your email was very detached -- which may have been why his response was so detached too. Like Lisa, I've found that my H tends to match my mood (although that is starting to change a little bit). It is scary to be the one to thaw the ice sometimes (due to fear of rejection on my part, I think), but if I do it without expectations then I find that I can handle whatever response I get.
I actually admire your restraint. I really don't know that I'd be able to resist a temp check at this point, however damaging that may be.
I second Lisa's suggestion that you invite him to drinks. It's been what, a month, since the last time? Just be prepared for him to say no thanks.
Ha! I've lost quite a few posts with the board maintenance. Probably a good thing as I had ventured down a negative path (if only real life events could be wiped away so smoothly so that I can start over on a more positive slate!)
Anyway, thanks to LisaB, NewLeaf and Dpthght for their replies (now lost). I've got some updates but will wait til the fixins been done on the boards.
Well I gave it a go. Tried to reach out with no expectations of course. My H is a better DBer than I will ever be:
G: Hey H. I'm planning on doing a bit of the B-C walk later today or tomorrow (near where H lives). Just wondering of you'd like to join or grab a drink at IB? Seems like a while since we caught up!
H: Thanks for the invite. I'm out of Town today and tomorrow is busy, but I know you are moving shortly. I'll be in touch early in the week to coordinate.
(Gah! He's sooooo busy GAL ever since we separated. And way to go on being mysterious ;-)
G: Ok, great. Have fun!
(I figured the only option was to show PMA).
Ah…parents. Bless them.
So I learned today that my Dad sent H a text on R U OK day (Sept 11). Apparently the convo went something like this:
Dad: Hi H. Today is R U OK day so I am reaching out to see if U R OK.
H: Thanks B. I'm OK. How are you, L and Ganb8te doing?
Dad: We're sad and depressed by your absence lately.
Errr….on the positive side H didn't blow off my Dad?!
(I had nothing to do with this - I was knee deep in Tanzania without internet/mobile access when this happened but H does't know that).
Actually this has been a really tough aspect to deal with. My folks have been SUPER supportive but are really saddened by all this and don't understand why we're not talking about it. I do think their inquiry to H was genuine. I stopped short of sending then Sandi's rules…
I'm sorry to hear your sitch, I know how hard this is for you. What you said about your peeps reaching out to your h made me remember what my well meaning family said to my first (not present ) h against my wishes.
My grandma told my first h that there was an electric chair with his name on it, (he was physically abusing me), and that they had the means to see that it happened if he touched me again.
Funny now, but at the time it caused problems.
Hang in there
Thanks, sjallda. I'm glad my Dad didn't threaten the electric chair!!! I bet that did create problems for you though it sounds like your circumstances in the previous M were very difficult. I hope you moved on to better things…(sorry that you find yourself here now).
I figure worst case scenario the reply text from my Dad activated my H's guilt button. I talked with my Dad about it, asked how he would have felt if his FIL sent the same thing to him. Dad's reply was that his FIL would have strangled him by now; no way would his FIL have stood back and been so uninvolved if my dad left my mum. Interesting perspective...
I could really use some input on how to handle my upcoming move. I have no choice but to poke the bear for this one, so I'm looking to do as little damage as possible.
Recap: We lived in a rental apt (lease ends mid-Oct). H moved all his day-to-day stuff out soon after he moved out. So I am left with my stuff, our joint stuff and his "not so day-to-day stuff" (documents, safe keeps etc), all of which needs to be cleared out of the apt in 1.5 wks when I move out. Bear in mind that we've had little contact since we separated 3.5 months ago and no R talk - so I really have no idea where we are at and what he's thinking about the future.
So how do I handle this? There are a few things that I'm trying to work through:
1. Joint stuff - he has said he doesn't want anything (furniture etc) so my main question is about the sentimental stuff (wedding gifts, things we picked up on our travels together). Do we split this now? I'm tempted to just pack it into a box and take it with me given that he's not expressed a desire to have any of it. But then I don't want to seem controlling on the off chance he asks me about it. Do I bring this up? Guys perspective?
2. His stuff - clearly he is entitled to take it. I've gathered everything into a couple of piles but stopped short of putting into boxes for him. His new place is apparently very small whereas I will have a storage cage. Should I offer to hold on to it if he can't? Also, his stuff includes a whole lotta items that would normally stir up emotions in someone who wasn't in fog land (old love letters from me, gifts from my family etc). I'm not sure how he'll react - can I do anything here to make this less stressful or guilt/shame inducing? Actually I don't think he realizes how much stuff is still here.
3. Should I be here when he comes to pick it up or no? I get so few opportunities to see him but it is bound to be an emotionally charged process for both of us and may well lead to R talk (are we splitting this stuff for good?) I'm not sure if I can handle that.
Any thoughts or shared experiences would be appreciated. Rather stressful times here…it has NOT been fun packing up by myself and coming across boxes that just 12 months ago would imply that our lives were thoroughly intertwined and showing no signs of changing any time soon (e.g. a single box containing trinkets from both of our childhoods). :-(
Oh ganb8te, we have so many similarities! I recently went through this exact thing. Here is my input.
1. joint stuff
If he doesn't express interest just take it and keep it to the side or keep it for yourself. And when you talk about his stuff you can mention it again like "oh and if you want to go through the joint stuff let me know!"
2. his stuff
After my WAH left I threw all of his stuff in piles or boxes. And yes there were sentimental items in there too. I know some stuff has had an effect on him as he has recently gone through the boxes but he is in crazy fog land. He reacted to some things but in a crazy way sending me random emails. I feel like his reactions are on HIM not YOU! So I wouldn't worry about guilt or shame.
Anyway, I would tell him to some get his stuff before you move and you can also be nice and mention that you have a storage space if he needs it. My WAH actually offered his house for storage for me. I did not take him up on it as I didn't want to have to rely on him. Probably your H will not take you up on it either. But it is nice to offer.
3. be there or not?
I hated being there when my WAH would come get stuff so I would always try to be out. But yes it is a good opportunity to see him. Is there any way you can be in another room keeping busy while he goes through his things? I did that once or twice and it was ok. I also helped my H move his stuff into his new house. I thought it would rip my heart out but actually it was fine. Weirdly. I just kept a PMA the whole time and tried to be happy and helpful. A good way to show off 180s and PMA! But I agree going through things together would be very hard. We didn't do that. I just put his crap in his boxes and left him to feel weird by himself.
I hope this helps some? I feel your stress over this, it was very very nervewracking for me deciding what to do when moving. But in the end it turned out fine.
Good luck my dear!
Hugs, Lisa
Thanks Lisa. I was hoping you might weigh in because I knew you had been through something similar. I'm looking forward to moving into my new place, just not the bits have to happen before then!
Dad's reply was that his FIL would have strangled him by now; no way would his FIL have stood back and been so uninvolved if my dad left my mum. Interesting perspective...
And folks wonder why the divorce rate was so low before 1970.
There's a better joke in there somewhere, but it is certainly offensive to someone!
Hi ganb8te, just checking in to see how things are going. I'm really not looking forward to the packing/moving part of this journey but I think what Lisa said makes a lot of sense and is how I'll probably approach it too when the time comes.
Thanks for stopping by, NewLeaf. No major news over here. H is all set to come over tomorrow to pick up his things. I've been a bit sad and anxious in anticipation of his visit. We're at 4 months this Friday (wow…where did that time go?) I really have no idea what he's thinking at this point - if there's an OW, if he's in IC, if he thinks we are done… It's tempting to ask questions but I know I shouldn't. I pulled out DR again and re-read Ch 6&7 to remind myself. It's just so hard to know if there is any progress or if what I am doing is working given that there is so little interaction.
Last time I saw him - a month or so ago - he told me it made him sad to see me (despite or perhaps because of the PMA I was showcasing). On the positive side I was glad to see that he'd moved beyond the angry stage, but based on what I know of my H I could see him avoiding me just so that he can avoid those feelings. Sure enough he's turned down two invitations for a casual drink subsequent to that last meet up (we also had things to discuss…which he emailed about). So I get the message, he doesn't want to spend any time with me at the current time. Backing off…trying to focus on me.
It's no fun but it's good he has an emotional response to you. I'm sorry I haven't been on top of your threads... Does labug visit you? Because I know on my thread, she'd say that him avoiding his feelings is his to work out. What's your task?
I'm starting to understand the idea of the marathon. Marriage is the long haul. You're in the "for worse" part right now. Let him do his thing (I *know* how hard that is) and keep up the good work on your thing. We're behind you!
Thanks so much, Maybell. I do accept that his feelings are his to work out, just get frustrated by his tendency to ignore, not deal, deny (there's a history there, estrangement in the family following his parents' separation). On the other hand, I think he does process things internally in a way that I probably don't appreciate. In fact I think this sensitivity was one of the things that attracted me to him in the first place.
My task? My task is to let him be (I'm generally doing ok with that). My other task is to work on me. Our separation came so quickly and with so little discussion that it's been hard to identify the 180s I need to pull from H's perspective. As for my perspective, I've identified a few things (e.g. reactive communication style, anxieties around work) that I am working on. I need to throw some more fun into the mix too!
No Labug doesn't visit me as far as I know…but I would love it if she did (hint, hint). I have gone back and read her old threads up until she and H started dating again. Her personal journey was an inspiration to read…particularly since she also went for long periods without contact with H.
Sometimes the task can be just to sit with things and let them simmer until you know which path you want to take. Any 180s you try to pull from your H's perspectives are going to be mind-reading and unsustainable, so I don't recommend that one. I bet there are ways in which you've felt constrained in your marriage that can be 180s for now.
I read a relationship book a few months ago that pointed out that often the things that drive us most crazy about our spouses are the "flip sides" of the qualities that drew us to them. It's like the technique Vossy uses to pull herself out of a spin. Hmm...
Sorry - I wasn't being clear. What I meant was 180s to address what H identified as issues in our M. Many of the issues I can't address because there is no R. But one - listening - is something I am trying to work on. As I've said on other people's threads (SS?) I've never liked how reactive and defensive I can get in conversations (with all people not just H) - and it is a barrier to listening or rather hearing. I missed important clues that H was unhappy because of this. So this is an area I am working on...
But your point, Maybell, about just sitting with things is well taken…and quite a change for someone who is used being proactive and trying to drive things.
Who am I kidding "proactive and trying to drive things" = euphemism for control. I was trying to control things.
Well, H came over to pick his stuff up this afternoon. Here's the lowdown (some feedback and wisdom, especially on the bold bits would be really appreciated):
The good:
- I was looking and feeling good when he arrived - decked out in my nice new Calvin Klein jeans, a t-shirt, painted red toes and perfume
- I did my usual awkward kiss on the check greeting and H put his arm around me and definitely gave a bit of a rub on my back
- H said "it was nice to see me" and thanked me for sorting through the stuff
- I did not follow him around the house…instead I went about my own business packing more of my stuff
- H threw very little stuff out and the stuff he did throw out (from his childhood) I didn't make any judgements about (180)
- After he was done loading the stuff in the car he asked if I wanted to grab dinner at the pub across the road (I had thought about extending the offer but decided I would not…and wait to see if he did)
- H agreed to keep our joint private health insurance (after I explained it would be more expensive if we both had a singles policy but that we obviously won't be able to keep co-mingling our things forever if that's the way this goes)
- The text message from my Dad came up. I said I had nothing to do with it but that it is true, they are sad by H's absence. He said right now it was too hard to talk about things but in time he would reach out to them (interesting)
- Despite the obvious difficulties in holding a conversation (see below), H suggested that we get together in a couple of weeks. No firm plans but he said he'll send a text. (That's the first time he has suggested getting together without a practical reason in mind)
- H asked about the apartment I am moving into (hmmm…is that a bit of curiosity showing through? Wonder if I hooked him with the "you can see a bit of the Opera House from the balcony" comment ;-) )
- Before he left, H came round the table and gave me a rub on the shoulder as a departing gesture
- D word never came up
The bad:
- The R did come up (it's the elephant in the room so when the conversation stalls [see below] its almost inevitable that it comes up…usually by him…but since it was soooo general I decided I would ask some questions)
- H reiterated that it makes him sad to see me (same as last time) and that he finds it tough to talk to me (see below)
- I asked what he meant the last time when he said separation was a good thing - he clarified that what he meant was that he was unhappy in the R. I took the bait and asked "so you are happy now?" He said "at least I have the opportunity to be happy"
- I ended up asking "where are we at right now"? He said IF we were to get involved again the R would have to be very different. Right now he doesn't see how that can happen.
- I said I understood some of my role in the problems to which he responded "it's not you……(wait for it)…….it was the relationship" (like he doesn't appreciate that the R is manufactured by the two of us and is what we make it). Any thoughts on how to deal with that attitude? I stopped myself from going off on a rant (but was thinking, kinda calmly actually: these are all the things that I know I did wrong, have you even thought about your contribution…?)
- I still have difficulty trying to project that I'm moving on - but honestly I'm not sure that that is the best approach with my H. So I still let him know that I care and that I miss him. I also said more generally that I miss having a man in my life
- At one point I reached out and touched his arm as a consoling gesture…he pulled away and so I said sorry, it's hard to see him look so sad. I also dropped a couple of "hons" and then apologized (old habits die hard) but he said it was ok
- He left before I finished my meal (typical pattern - him leaving me at restaurants when things get too emotionally tough for him…that's got to change)
- H has bought a plane ticket to the US to go to his sister's wedding in late December. On the negative side it seems he's not expecting us to be together by then (and I'm really sorry to be missing the wedding). On the positive side, he's planning on coming back to Australia (one of my fears is that he'll move back to the US…and it will get really difficult to reconcile).
The ugly:
- H seems stuck in the same place - sad, stressed about work (I conveyed my sympathies), doing the same old (surfing, ultimate frisbee). It does't sound like his life is that different. He's not looking or sounding like someone who has an OW. Thoughts from those in the thick of it? Also doesn't seem like he is seeing an IC.
- We cannot hold a conversation. Sure I could banter on about this or that but if I don't feed the conversation then it stalls. This is the thing that concerns me most. If we can't feel comfortable talking again then I can't see how we can have a R again. Anyone else experience this…or have any suggestions here?
- It is painful watching my H try to communicate. On the positive side, in the past I probably would have interrupted and not given him much of a chance. I definitely sat back and waited for him to tell me what was on his mind (180) but it was painful to watch. I still need to work on the way I ask questions (need to be softer in my approach)
So I feel ok about things. I would say that the M is not dead, but H doesn't see the possibility of returning to it right now. Now my biggest challenge is to not fall into a funk like the last time we met up. I think I'll be ok as I'm moving into my new place at the end of the week and am looking forward to starting a new life there. Better book another appt with the IC as well.
There are things about your sitch that reminded me of mine, so I'm interested to see what feedback you get. But for what it's worth, here are some thoughts:
I don't think there's much to do about his concept of what a relationship is for the time being. Ss06 has mentioned a couple of books that might help you see how you could adjust his concept more positively till you're in a place where discussion is possible, but in the meantime this is his truth and he's the only one who can change it. I know how frustrating that is; my H has said the same thing in practically the same words.
I haven't followed your thread in detail but if your sense is that there's no OW then there may not be. I don't want to be definitive about that because you're separated. The best thing is to behave according to the best case scenario until you have reason to change. My DB coach said that our expectations often determines outcomes, so give yourself your best chance and expect positive things.
If the conversation stalls, let it stall. If you give him space to fill the gaps, you might get information you wouldn't have gotten otherwise. Would it be a 180 for you to do that? It is for me, and it is HARD to do... But things started changing when I left that space.
It sounds like you had a mostly positive interaction. It would be good to not think of the places where things could improve as bad or ugly; if things were great you wouldn't be on the forum here. The items you put as bad and ugly were informational for how to bring everything up to good and great.
Looking forward to seeing what other feedback you get!
Thanks, Maybell. It never ceases to amaze me how often people say that they've heard the same thing, in practically the same words. What's that about? We don't know anyone who has been through this so where on earth does this script come from? Can we buy it online and cut to the last page to see where it all ends up?
I look forward to seeing more feedback too ;-)
(Woke up feeling pretty good today)
Hi ganb8te! It's interesting to hear how your H's moving day went! And like you and Maybell said it is always uncanny to read the similarities in our situations.
I think you and I are in a very similar boat. No kids, no real ties, uncommunicative H's who don't really have much to say about why they don't want to be with us, just vague complaints about being unhappy or dissatisfied.
I totally relate to what you are saying about the conversation faltering. And for me that is a 180, to be quiet and wait for him to start talking. I always fill the space and talk more than him but lately when I see him I have been trying to be quiet. When sitting at a restaurant it can be a bit awkward but I try to sip my drink and just look around me appearing to be quietly relaxed. It's so hard. If we are doing a task together like driving or walking I try to be quiet and actually I count in my head. That began a long time ago before BD when I wondered how long it would take him to speak if I didn't. But it also works to keep my mind occupied and keep me from talking first. Maybe that could help you? Try not to have bored or annoyed face but just wear a slight smile and look like you are thinking about rainbows.
It sounds like your day went WELL! There were so many positives: him wanting to have dinner, him wanting to see you again, him saying IF you got back together things would have to be different. Of course I read your story and compare to mine and my H would never say IF we tried again.... he is dead set that it is over. So that is a huge positive to me.
The next step seems to me to be working on finding out HOW he thinks things should be different so you can show him what he is looking for. Do you have ideas? How can you display those 180s to him?
As far as OW, I don't know if it matters so much whether there is one or not. I would say from your story that he may be looking but he hasn't found one yet. On the other hand, there really is no way to know for sure what he is doing. My H seemed extremely sad and depressed after he left, and was contacting me all the time. If I didn't know about OW I would think he was pining away for me all alone and missing me. Well, maybe he was when she was not around. ha.
But I wouldn't worry about that so much. I think you should be more focused on 180s.
Can you make a list of 180s you could possibly show him?
Overall I think you should be pleased! Lots of positives!!!
Hugs, Lisa
Try not to have bored or annoyed face but just wear a slight smile and look like you are thinking about rainbows.
That made me laugh, Lisa. As I said on Ss's thread, I am working on my LBF. Smile and eyebrows up when listening intently! And now I will think about rainbows as well. I'm going to have to mull over your question about 180s.
Maybell, yes, sitting back and letting H fill the silence is a 180 for me. I agree that it is exceptionally TOUGH. I was happy with how I fared with this on Sunday and I did get to learn a little bit more about H's perspective as a result.
Well ganb8te, it seems your packing day went as well as it could have given the circumstances. hopefully he follows through on his plan to see you next week and you can again show him how awesome you are. I do feel like him saying "if" is a fairly big deal, it shows that he's at least thinking about the R and what it would take for him to be happy in it.
As far as not filling the conversational space, good luck ladies. In general I think we men are much more comfortable with sitting in silence. Our minds have no problem shutting down for short periods of time where we may literally be thinking about the equivalent of rainbows. It is a great exercise in patience though. Hopefully, your Hs see all the ways you are changing to meet their needs and realize how lucky they are.
Hi ganb8te, I agree with Joe about being comfortable sitting in silence and being able to shut down for short periods of time without being the least bit uncomfortable or feeling anything was amiss. I think in happier times I just didn't think twice about the silence, as we were so comfortable with each other. I do feel the silence now though, and feel the pressure, that I might be missing an opportunity to connect if I can't find something to say to keep the conversation going. I haven't found anything in particular that makes it easier, just wanted to share that I've experienced it too.
It sounds like your packing day went really well, I'm really happy for you! I agree with Lisa on the whole "if" thing. My w hasn't said "if" since the BD in June. I don't even know what I would do at this point if she did.
hopefully he follows through on his plan to see you next week and you can again show him how awesome you are.
I'm not holding by breath, Joe, but it would be a big step if he did! Besides, H and I have debated the meaning of "a couple" in the past. I'm a strict couple = 2 kind of person whereas he's a bit more loose (couple could mean anywhere from 2, 3, 4…) All will be revealed in due course ;-)
Joe and Newleaf, thanks for your male perspectives on the conversational space thing. Yup, I think us ladies have noticed that you have no trouble shutting out and it drives us NUTS just so you know!
More seriously though, I was always so touched when my H showed me that he truly heard something I said. Like even just the other day, he asked me about something that I said when we met up a month ago. To my mind it was just a passing comment that I didn't even think he picked up. It was just a small thing, but it caught me by surprise when he brought it up again on Sunday - reminded me of that nice quality of his. Actually, I think he's a better listener than I am.
Maybe you fellas need to give yourselves more credit? If only you could look like you were listening then we might not go so crazy at you! (Although now I've read HTIYMWTAI and understand that the looking away thing runs a litter deeper...)
HTIYMWTAI? Now there's a tough abbreviation.
Sorry. How to improve your marriage without talking about it.
Ganb8te I had to chuckle about the "couple" thing. I think I was in my mid 20s before I realized that "a couple" meant 2. I felt quite stupid. In my mind it had always signified 2 or more. "A couple minutes" meant probably less than 10. I'll have "a couple of" cookies meant 4 cookies. haha.
Yeah so if I said "a couple of weeks" to you it would probably mean within the month. Now I try to correct myself and say "a few" instead.
I know what you mean about the listening thing. Sometimes I would think my H was a great listener as he would recall some small thing I or someone else said in passing. On the other hand he would also rarely remember appointments that I had set. His question "Are we doing anything Saturday?" was often met with incredulous shock as I had just an hour earlier outlined our detailed plans for Saturday. Selective hearing I suppose.
I would like to be a better listener. I'm pretty terrible. I'm also pretty terrible at silence unless I am in a bad or pensive mood.
Hugs to you,
Lisa
My goodness ganb8te that 'if' sounds great to me too. I wish my wife would say 'if'. Right now she says 'it's over, it's run it's course'.
I got an 'it wasn't me, it was the relationship' last weekend after I said she had started this turn of events. Hmmmm.
I have always been able to sit in silence. I am known for having 'quite days', but sitting in silence these days is more difficult with that elephant in the room. I mentioned on my thread that it's rally difficult to just talk s so much is now 'out of bounds' and almost everything else sems trivial. Nice weather for this time of year doesn't really cut it.
(Not so) Old Dog xx
But it is nice weather for this time of year, Old Dog. It's funny but when the sun is a-shining and the sky is blue I have my greatest temptations to reach out to H. I suppose it's because I feel stronger and more confident when there is good weather. Good thing the summer is coming up down under.
IC appointment tomorrow. Planning on talking through some of the ways a new R could be "very different" from the old R.
Granb8te I think the 'if' sounds very promising. I would be delighted with that.
And I totally get the reaching out thing - I get that all the time. Sometimes I try and distract myself so I don't actually physically touch his face or arm. If I did I'm sure he would recoil in horror.
Seems like a good time to start a new thread as I've opened a new chapter by moving into my own place. Must be approaching 100 posts in any case.
New thread:
here