Is DB Worth It? Part 3 - DivorceBusting.com

Checking back in and starting new thread.

Previous thread will be locked soon.

I just looked at your previous thread to see what I've missed and I read the first post from that thread by mistake. I wondered how you've seen that you've evolved -- or that your sitch has -- since then?

What a great question.

I just reread it too.

I think that, while I'm not 100% there, I am far more detached now. I go about my business, my GAL (still working on that, too), and don't think much nowadays about "winning him back".

I don't remember if I've written about this before, but it feels like our roles are reversed-- he seems stressed, anxious, tired, sad, has been sick a number of times in the last 8 months.

I've been pretty strong, particularly in front of him. He has noticed and complimented me on it.

Totally ambivalent about reconciliation at this point (though who knows-- that could change). But-- I am DBing myself all over the place: with my parents, colleagues, friends. Basically trying to put out the energy I wish to have in return, but without expectations. And remembering that i cannot control anyone but myself.

It feels really peaceful and empowering.
:-)

Good stuff, Claire!

I know where your coming from. My h is tired, sick, crashed cars, seems less happy and more stressed.

Me I've come round full circle. I was very uncomfortable in my skin, in the beginning, I had no sense of me. No sense of happiness or even directions. It that makes sense.

Now I'm feeling confident. I don't see or feel changed but I am getting people who are noticing. I seem to be getting compliments from people I hardly know. I'm finding it is surprising, but it's a nice surprise. I feel like me and have found comfort in my skin.

I work in retail and and db customers validating trying to listen and solve their drama. Yes, I'm starting to feel peaceful and in control. It's a great feeling isn't it Clare?

Yeah... though I will admit that my 3 year does know how to push my control buttons...especially when I don't get enough sleep...which is pretty much all the time... which is the number one thing I need to work on...

I am stuck in a terrible sleep cycle and haven't been able to get out of it. But I will.

Wait till 3 becomes 16, they have so much more experience to push buttons. Trust me.
Yesterday was good tho, he came to the hair dresser and I think It opened his eyes a bit.

Just checking in/journaling.
I've been spending some time reflecting, processing, spending time with my D3, celebrating the beginning of summer! Lots going on...

I feel like I am on an emotional rollercoaster-- my WAH is frustrating me, but I am also trying very hard to have compassion for him, and to even attempt to be friendly.

I think I'm ambivalent at this point about moving forward with a D. Things are moving very very slowly, and even though he's shown some teeny tiny signs (he's asked questions about me), he's definitely still expressing interest in splitting up (wanting to separate finances, etc).

I've avoided posting about myself b/c I don't even know what feedback I'm looking for. I keep resisting the urge to reach out to him to ask-- after 8 months-- is this really what you want?? Do you still feel that there is absolutely no chance of rebuilding our M?? I want to send him quotes from MWD (I just looked at her FB page, and found so many sentiments that fit us). Even my SIL asked me, "Does he think that there is just someone else out there who will be a perfect partner?"

I realized recently that I was so focused on detaching myself and GAL, I wasn't really doing anything to DB. I had forgotten about my goals, and wasn't really keeping track of anything. So, after being inspired by some others around here, I tested the waters. Positive but fairly cool reaction. I'll take that as a positive, sure. But the real question is why am I still concerned about it in the first place.

I didn't sign up to do this parenting thing alone. I wished to have a second child-- he stole that from me because *he* couldn't handle my depression and anxiety. My heart breaks again every time I hear about another friend who is pregnant, or miss another family event, or remember that I've essentially vanished from his entire life-- most of his family and most of his friends are just completely not in my life anymore.

There's more, but I'm not sure who is out there listening to me. And I'm not even sure what I'm asking.

((Claire))

So many of us with similar timelines are having a rough week! Must be something in the atmosphere...

Claire I don't really have any advice but I feel for you. I agree. Everyone is having a rough week

Focus on the positives, easier said than done I know.

I totally get what you mean about vanishing from his life ... I feel the same pain. Think of all the positive changes you made.

Tell us about the positive reactions for how you tested the water

Claire, I've been listening.

I hear you about the vanishing thing. We are so far from family and I've always struggled with my in-laws. We've only been separated ten weeks and they've basically vanished already.

I think you don't necessarily have to have questions to post. You are generous with showing caring to others and it matters to me at least to hear from you.

I wish I knew what to say. Attrition hurts.

Thanks so much artsy, T0 and Maybell. It means a lot.

T0, there have been a number of positives lately, actually. Part of me is afraid to focus on those. I'm more comfortable focusing on negatives and that is definitely something I'm working on.

In the past month, we've had a R talk (initiated by me), which wasn't particularly productive-- but he did show some emotion, and thanked me via email soon afterwards, and didn't completely shut things down (i.e. he didn't say, "that was all nice to hear, but there's no chance"). I took that as a BIG positive, because it's been months since I've broached any R talk at all.

He's been friendlier in emails and texts to me-- using my name, saying "Hi", signing his name. Tiny things, and still inconsistent, but positive direction.

We've successfully navigated a couple of potentially major conflicts without arguing (pretty much mostly due to my DB efforts, but I will give him credit for being receptive to those efforts, and apologizing for his part, too).

He is still, 8 months later, wearing his ring.

We've had at least a couple of lighthearted interactions about our D, mostly. I sent him a pic today, and he responded right away, positively.

The problem with these positive steps is that I'm starting to feel... angry(?). It's like, COME ON. You see that I've changed, you see that we can communicate better, this whole D process is such a pain in the a$$, and expensive, and damaging to our D. Is this REALLY so much better than trying to actually work on our R???? Argh.

So, I try to turn the focus back on me: I need to start exercising again, make some more GAL plans, do my mediation HW, start getting more sleep, work on a bunch of projects around the house that I started but haven't finished (one of his major complaints about me. Woops).

Onward.

And go and find I Am Woman by Helen Reddy on YouTube, the one with lyrics.

It just perked me a up, and I'm a bloke :-)

Originally Posted By: claire7

The problem with these positive steps is that I'm starting to feel... angry(?). It's like, COME ON. You see that I've changed, you see that we can communicate better, this whole D process is such a pain in the a$$, and expensive, and damaging to our D. Is this REALLY so much better than trying to actually work on our R???? Argh.

Oh man this really resonates with me. In my case, W walked out without expressing any interest to seriously have a last go at working things out. I can understand if things really came to a head for her and she wanted out; she needed to work on herself and being happy and that the relationship should never have happened in the first place (the classics). Once in a while I find this so... arrogant! There's another life involved you know (and more if you have kids).

How can we turn this angry energy into a positive?

YES to both of you.

Except when I see his hip downtown apartment with no space for the kids, I feel like he's just given up on adulthood altogether and wants to enjoy a 40 yo's paycheck with a college kid's lifestyle. So why should he work on a relationship that's just going to drag him back to daily responsibility???

claire, I know part of it for me is that we work so hard at DB, at being better. we give so much thought about our R and it seems to us they give so little. For me, I think, I want recognition. some recognition from H.
A day at a time is all we can do

Maybell-- yes! In my case, he does (finally...though it took him 6 months) have a space for my D3. But it does feel a little bit like a mini MLC. Not full blown, but a feeling of like, "man this grown-up/parenting thing is not so fun sometimes. Waking up early on the weekends is not so fun! I want to go out whenever I want and not really be accountable to anyone!" More like that.

And it has taken a toll on his health. Right before he BD, he had high blood pressure. I don't know if that is solved, but since then, it seems like every week there is another ailment. Last week he had strep throat, today he showed up limping.

Every couple I know going through major stressors in their lives is having R problems. We had a bunch of stressors at once: new job, new home, new mortgage, new baby, and my (untreated) depression and anxiety.

I looked at a list of "life stressors" that can affect ones' health. These are all near the top of the list. But at the very very very top.... Separation and divorce.

So, I want to ask my (frequently ill and tired) WAH.. how's this working out for you, health-wise? Sigh.

I know that feeling,

I for 2 would love to ask my h how's that working out for ya buddy!

So I just said goodbye to my D3 and H as they go off to spend the weekend with my in-laws. I am so sad not to see my nephews and nieces. I miss them terribly, and grieve that I am missing out on my D3's special time with my H's family. And of course I will miss my D3. It breaks my heart somehow that she has become so accustomed to this new life that she doesn't even ask "Why aren't you coming, Mama?" Or maybe she is afraid to ask? I don't know. Of course, it would break my heart just as much if she DID ask, so part of me is very thankful that she seems to be taking it all in stride.

Only a fool would just walk away from all of this with barely a second thought.

But, onward we must go. I will take a few deep breaths, and then finish packing up my own things... I am off to a healing retreat this weekend. I haven't been out of town since last October-- two weeks before BD. Wow.

Hopefully some fresh air, and a chance to unplug and center myself for a bit will feel refreshing. Happy Independence Day!

Glad to hear you are getting away for a little bit....I hope it helps you.

So happy you have a good plan!

I feel like you. All the way. My kids were so excited to spend the weekend with their dad. As they should be. But I miss them.

Enjoy your retreat, I look forward to hearing about it!

So, just got back from a weekend away and while my daughter is having snack I had to post that I'm pretty sure my H wasn't wearing his ring-- he was hiding his hand in his pocket or behind his back. This is a first. And just when I thought I was detached, I am having a really hard time at the moment. Maybe all my "progress" was phony because I still believed things would work out between us.

I'm shaking, and had an emotionally draining weekend, and as much as I am so happy to spend time with my D, I want to have a good cry but her bedtime is at least 4 hours away.

I am so sorry.

Those shocks are hard to take, aren't they?

Your progress was not phony. You had an emotionally draining weekend and your resistance is down. You will take time to comfort yourself tonight and in the morning things will be in a tolerable place.

No matter what happens you will be well because your high quality shines through the things you share.

I'm sending you hugs. I wish there were more I could do.

Thank you very much Maybell. I needed that. Hope you are doing well too.

That is a tough one. You really want to believe all the 180 is for your benefit, and NO ONE can blame you if you choose to hold out hope for your marriage.

But when you (honestly ) realize that you were doing a lot of the stuff in hopes that he returns (instead of for yourself) it IS very discouraging. I think anyone who says this was not a reality for them is kidding themselves just a little bit.

Just another one of the little "gifts" that keeps on giving.

sorry

I think it is easy to believe, and also very good, that we are changing and accepting of things that we cannot control. HOWEVER I think when faced with new issues, things that we do not see coming, it may be difficult/discouraging to handle. But with that said. I bet 100% you felt much different than you would have prior to DB'ing. It doesn't mean it doesn't hurt but I mean that you HAVE changed and I'm sure you handled it Better than you would have months ago. Try not to dwell on the negatives (I know pto calling the kettle here lol) and focus on the positives of what you are doing because you are doing great.

We are all human. We are in situations that we are molding and trying to adapt a new/better us! I believe we are defined in how we handle things when things are at their worst! People are always great when things are great but throw a curveball in the mix and see who comes
Out on top - I bet you'd be right up top front and center

Bugsby-- I am definitely working on myself FOR myself. I had actually started that work shortly before BD. I am grateful to my H for the opportunity to make the changes i needed to make. I was living in a dark, sad, scared place for far too long...and now I can see all the blessings and joy in my life. For the first time in perhaps my entire life, i can honestly say I like myself and I'm comfortable in my own skin AND mind. That is permanent.

But I'm feeling a bit like I've come full circle with my DB efforts. When my H first left, he said that he had no hope that I could change permanently, or that he could ever feel in love with me again. Classic hopelessness, as per MWD, and a classic "fixed mindset."

I hear about so many couples who spent months in therapy, or whose spouse left (or was left behind) totally angry, bitter, and unwilling to do any work on themselves. That's not me. We don't argue-- in fact we have had some very productive conversations and have resolved conflicts better than we ever had. He has noticed how I've changed and even complimented me on it.

We went to see a counselor for about 5 or 6 sessions before he decided to leave. That was it. When I said that we hadn't even tried to work on our M, he said he had been trying for a long time. I'm back to how I felt at the beginning, which is... in our situation, no abuse, no cheating, a child, shared interests and values..how does someone just walk away so easily without even entertaining the possibility of reconciliation? How do you just plop yourself down in the living room one day and say, "I'm done" and walk out the door forever?

How can he not feel some piece of hope that our recent interactions could show that we could have a different relationship in the future?

And I feel silenced, because I want to say these things to him but I know that will only push him away.

I deserve better.

Clare,

Congratulations on you for getting to a place of peace with yourself. I believe you said you dealt with untreated depression/anxiety?? It's great that you recognized it was affecting you and that you took the necessary actions to feel better. Many people cannot even admit they have an issue! You have come so very far in more ways than you probably fully realize at this time.

I know this is not DBing, however when I hear people have been *trying* for so long, I always wonder what they were doing. A friend of mine had been *trying* and when asked what she had been doing, she began to stammer and sort of muddle thru what she perceived to be her all. We live in a very disposable culture where we have created the belief that *something* is always better. Better mate, better house, better car, better job, etcetera. Not everyone lives this way, however it is prevalent in our culture. Not that your h is this way, I just think people think they are starting *fresh* when in reality they are taking their issues right along with them. I also think that when you walk away once, it's easier to do it again in the future. Just sashayed off my soapbox!

Keep focusing on you and your D. Your h has his own issues-you know that though:). You are doing great!

Claire, it's nice to hear from you again! What do you need inspiration for? You have a lovely, warm, supportive, positive voice. You can always be counted on to offer kindness even when you're pointing out a problem.

I'd like to hear about your experience at the healing retreat. I haven't done one of those and would love to hear what it's like when you feel ready to share?

Georgiabelle-- thank you. Yes, I have come such a long way-- every area of my life has improved-- family, friends, colleagues, my D. Every single day I have a moment when I realize how the old me would have reacted or felt-- negatively, judgemental, or anxious-- and how I don't feel that way any more. Every. Single. Day.

I have the second half of my life to live in lightness.

And I am angry-- so angry today-- that my H won't join me for it. I know he has his issues. I do have compassion for him for his lack of hope and imagination or belief in my or his capacity to change.

And I am also angry at what his weakness is costing me. It is costing me a lot. Today, I don't know how to get past that. That doesn't mean I won't figure that out. But this is where I am at today.

"how does someone just walk away so easily without even entertaining the possibility of reconciliation? How do you just plop yourself down in the living room one day and say, "I'm done" and walk out the door forever?"

If we knew the answer to this, we'd be rich!

It is a mystery to me as well. I know we're not supposed to spend our time trying to figure it out but it just seems so unexplainable. On a random Saturday in December (while we were in the living room, no less!) my H was being short with me so I asked him why he was so cranky.. he replied "I'm not happy with our marriage." The next day I downloaded a Jon Gottman book for us to read and talk though (seems like less pressure than counseling, I thought), he read two chapters, and declared "All of the examples of people who get divorced sound like us, so there's no point in trying to figure this out" and said counseling and reading books would be a waste of time and money and just get my hopes up for nothing, because nothing would change. So, one day of "trying" and two chapters of a book read is enough effort, I guess

It is hard because of how this affects us. We can tell ourselves not to let it bring us down but ultimately it does affect us negatively in so many ways - financially, logistically, living arrangements, relationships with kids and other family members, just having a companion you though would be there for you... it's OK to be angry. I don't really have advice but just wanted to time in that I feel so similar in how sad and angry it is that they can just walk away seemingly randomly with no effort. I wonder if he thinks our M should be like how he got his last job... someone walks down the hallway and says "Hey, I can tell you're really unhappy with your current boss... you can come work for me and I'll give you a raise!"

Just reading back all the great posts on this thread from claire, ggrass, maybell, kgirl....

The parts about detaching and feeling stronger, while watching our Hs continue to travel down their respective paths of--what? "Happiness"? "Freedom"?
"Into the Abyss" is more like it.

They're trying to capture something which is not real, they're chasing a mirage...

So this is why I have the feeling that we're the ones who will come out ahead, while they will wake up one day and realize they're the losers.

I read these stories and I'm struck by the strength and growth I find among the people here.

It feels good on one hand, and so sad on the other. We're growing, expanding, and getting better, and our Hs are mostly left behind.

I wonder if they will ever catch up?

---GG

My H just won't see it. His own dad left his mom for another woman when he and his brother were very young (just about the same age as our D is now). They are still married, but my H has absolutely no R with his step mom or any of her children, even though they have been in his life since he was little. We didn't even invite those step-siblings to our wedding. He got to see his dad maybe once during the week and on weekends, and maybe once/year on vacation. They stayed fairly amicable, and I respect them both for that-- but even still, it affected him. Even when planning our wedding, their D was a factor (names on invites, seating arrangements, etc etc).

He refuses to accept that his parent's D had any negative impact on him, which fuels his own resolve. (Hey, I turned out fine, so will my D3, as long as I am present in her life). (And he is, unless he gets an invite for a special event--several times a month-- or isn't feeling well, also several times a month. ). Sigh.

I so want to say something snarky about our H's abilities to avoid the truth. But I won't.

I totally agree with you ladies. I even asked him about six weeks ago if he felt like he had REALLY done everything he could to make the marriage work. He sputtered a little bit, then said no, then immediately said "but this is what I feel is the right thing to do."

He told me on Mother's Day that I shouldn't "throw our vows back in his face" because he couldn't be expected to stick to a promise that he made sixteen years ago.

That right there is Quality.

Oh, I guess I got snarky anyway.

Claire, I think you need a weekend like GoatGal's. Get your mojo back in a big way and remember what you can DO with the light.

KGirl, I've been meaning to ask you about Vegas!

(and I think maybe I need to schedule a girls' weekend...)

Maybell-- I think you're right. A weekend like that sounds good!

I had another thought (full of thoughts today!)... Here I am wanting so much to save a marriage that I wasn't happy in! It sounds crazy. But, when I read MWD, or 5LL, or even Carol Dweck's work on Mindset with regards to love and relationships, I feel like there are lots of people out there who believe in change. But my H won't, and his friends and family don't seem to believe in change either.

Someone on this thread (GoatGal, I think?) mentioned our disposable culture. I think that's it. We are just not accustomed to working on fixing things at the first sign that they are not working perfectly. We just throw them away and get new ones. Hell, we throw stuff away even if they ARE working perfectly, just to get new ones!

I'm so sad for all our children. They deserve better. My friends tell me, "don't worry, in a few years she will have lots of friends whose parents are divorced." My heart breaks when I hear that. How is that something to feel good about in any way? How do we feel ok that it's become so normalized? I have taught so many students who have been damaged in so many small and big ways by their parents' divorces. Even the ones who seem "ok" with it are still hurting. Blended families, new half-siblings, step-parents, the logistics of going back and forth, splitting holidays and vacations. And that is when the parents can actually get along. It's so hard.

Maybe it's because he only has his personal (biased) example of divorce, while I have seen many, many of my students go through this that my H and I have such different perspectives about it.

If he doesn't come around, how will I ever forgive him?

Claire, I believe eventually you will forgive but grieving for your marriage is normal. Sometimes the feelings take hold and we can't see beyond them...it's a crappy process but dealing with it now is better than burying it or carrying it around. Take care and I hope tomorrow is a better day

Clare,

The grass IS greener.....until it turns brown:-). And life events happen, stressors, etc and some people simply don't have the capacity or *desire* to deal with it. That must be a difficult way to live.

Forgiveness is a process. I have no doubt you will get there.

Maybell:
"He told me on Mother's Day that I shouldn't "throw our vows back in his face" because he couldn't be expected to stick to a promise that he made sixteen years ago." !!!!!!

"That right there is Quality."

Oh, Maybell, that is a "Quality Quote" for sure! I am just waiting for the chance to use that!!

"Oh, I guess I got snarky anyway."

Heck--who wouldn't????

It would be even more funny if it weren't so pathetic!
I think in the realm of anger, it's pretty lightweight.

(And no, I wasn't the one who talked about "disposable culture", but I sure could have been. Everybody seems to think it's just OK to chuck it when it gets hard. I really believe in commitment and keeping the promises you make. But I guess that's just old-fashioned.)

--GG

I am the disposable quoter. We live in a culture where "go find happiness" and shiny and new are synonymous with *love* for many. Sad and true.

Sorry, Georgiabelle! I was lazy (and teary) and didn't want to pause my post to go back and check. At least I remembered it was someone with a "G"...

No apology necessary. Like I said, I just was on a soapbox today. I've hopped off and stuck the landing:-)

Regarding forgiveness... If he begins doing what's necessary to reconcile, I'm thinking the forgiveness will happen. Because what he'll have to do to get there will be big enough to make that kind of difference for you.

And if he doesn't, I suspect that seeing how his life plays out will make it unnecessary to forgive him because you will have moved into a place where it won't be needed for your own healing.

My IC today said "When it's all over, you will be ok. And if you're not ok, it's not over."

My D11 is one of a group of six close friends on the West Coast. Before my H left she and one other girl were the only two of the six that came from families whose parents were still married to one another. Most weren't amicable. The beauty of those situations was how loving and supportive the girls were to one another. They valued one another's differences. They were kind. We've been gone eighteen months on the opposite coast and they still matter to one another. (Electronics help). It's not what I would choose for my children, but if they can weather this change to their lives with that kind of generosity and caring then perhaps that makes it a little better.

As the LBS's we have to find the good cards in the hands we were dealt. Perhaps our kids will be fortunate to have committed spouses in great marriages, but lose everything in a tornado, or a financial crisis, or the zombie apocalypse? Or their child gets cancer, or global warming tips into an environmental catastrophe? Your daughter will have been fortunate to be blessed with a loving, compassionate mother who taught her strength and grace and self-respect. Because you weathered this catastrophe she will have the skills to weather hers.

As the wonderful John Lennon pointed out, life is what happens when we're busy making other plans.

Just to remind you... I've had bad days like yours. Recently. This morning was rough. This evening is better. Labug reminded me the other day that these rough days are sometimes a stepping stone to a better place, and I think she's right.

I'm getting by with a little help from my friends.

(even though John didn't sing that one)

A new favorite quote of mine I saw over in the MLC forum:

"The grass is always greener over the septic tank."

I couldn't love that any more than I do!

One last thing... As I'm sharing my story with my friends, I'm hearing some amazing stories.

My great-aunt & uncle were married and had three kids in the 40's, then got divorced. Were divorced six years, remarried, and had two more kids. They were married more than fifty years until my great-uncle died.

My SIL has a dear friend who had six kids with her H. They divorced when the youngest one was about four. My SIL never understood why. But about five years ago they remarried one another and are still acting like newly weds.

The parents of one of my good friends divorced when she was nine. Three months after the D was finalized her mom met and promptly married her second husband, had two more kids with him, and called him the love of her life till he died 35 years later.

Another friend told me the story of a relative whose husband had an affair and left her. She struggled at first but ultimately (within a small number of years that probably felt long as she lived it) found happiness for herself that included a great career and a very happy second marriage. Years later she encountered the former OW (long since dumped) in a waiting room. The OW began apologizing profusely and the wife said, don't apologize. You did me a huge favor. (It's not nice to note that the husband realized his mistake years later, after the wife remarried. He never did, and ended up dying alone of cancer.)

My brother told me several stories of couples he knows who managed to reunite after a few months' separation and were happier in the reunions than they had been in the failed marriages.

The message is that these stories ended differently... But they all ended happily.

Yours will too.

You get to decide that.

Good stuff! ^

Thanks for the encouragement, Maybell!

^^^^^

Thanks, everyone. I can't express how much the support of this forum means to me.

I had a long conversation with a good friend tonight... and I think I've reached a new step (Thanks, Maybell and Labug!). I'm not completely dropping the rope, but I think I am ready to get some new things going in my life-- exercise, meditation and rekindling a hobby are on the list.

Claire, hope its a great day.
don't know if we ever get the answers we are looking for...

our spouses can only do what they can do. We would like them to do more,

I said to h what will he say when our oldest decides someday to get married...? h doesn't know.

the gift of my 23 years with h are my children. That is pure happiness. I know I am doing my best. It is all I can control

The support on this forum is unbelievable. I wish I could offer more to you all but just reading the above stories is heart warming. We're with you Claire in your heart!

Some thoughts/observations today:

H was wearing his ring when he was in the house this morning to see D, but not this afternoon when he came to take her for a sleepover at his house. (He didn't think he would see me). Trying not to think about it too much, or what it means for his life away from me (is he dating? has he decided this is 100% completely over?) but just an observation.

Met up with one of my oldest and dearest friends tonight. We've known each other since Kindergarten. She said that she thinks I am happier and healthier than I've ever been. That this experience has changed me in such a positive way. It was such an amazing validation.

Here's where I'm struggling: If I want to officially DB, I probably need some coaching, because I'm not sure the best approach. I haven't really tried anything besides just being pleasant and friendly. And while he's softened a bit (using my name in emails, wishing me a good weekend, and not just with my D3), taking his ring off seems like a pretty big negative sign.

But after 6 months of consistent positive change on my end, do I even want to DB my M? (I will continue the changes for myself, no question). I just don't know if I should bother attempting any experiments, or just resign myself to keeping things as is. Do I send him a letter explaining where I'm at right now?

It's late... not sure if I'm even making sense! Just trying to put thoughts in some kind of order. But maybe someone out there has some helpful insights. Thanks.

Keep doing what works for now. Do not send any letters. And do not read anything into the ring thing. The fact that he wore it period should be considered a positive sign. So do not fret that he does not wear it all the time. Think about it....some is better than none...be happy with what you have.

Do not quit DBing based on your current feelings. You know those feelings will come and go. You committed to this effort a long time ago and have come a long way. No point in quitting now.

Best of luck!

Claire, what did you decide about getting a coach? S/he might help you clarify your thought process.

Maybell,

Haven't decided yet. The last few days have been emotional. I had lunch with my mil the other day. I haven't had one on one time with her since BD, almost 9 months ago. I used to see her every week and we were fairly close. I miss her and her whole family (my H's extended family) very much.

So.... I walked away from lunch feeling blessed-- we had a great conversation, she opened up to me a bit about my H (but not about her D). She gave me a great hug, told me how much she loves me and basically that she doesn't want this to happen. She asked me whether, if It came to a point where he wanted to work on things, if *I* could put everything behind me. I said I thought I could. I basically told her the things I've wanted to tell my H. And she responded positively...or at least neutrally. I think she walked away with a different perspective, at least somewhat. She has a lot of influence over him. So who knows what will happen next.

but he has his own path to follow, and a lot of work to do on himself, so it is not up to me.

I haven't decided about coaching. I did some a while ago, and I need to be clear about what I want out of it before I spend that kind of $ again. My biggest confusion still is how to handle co-parenting in a DB way with someone who Is not adversarial, but wants to keep the parenting schedule totally flexible. I still feel so stuck on what to say to him that won't come off sounding petty or spiteful. But it is like he doesn't want to have the reality of this situation... life as a D parent is not as flexible. SIGH.

Feeling sad today. Part of the scheduling questions are about spending vacation with his family, and another weekend with his friends. I'm still grieving the loss of closeness in those relationships and missing time with my D.

Claire, I hear you on how emotional you can feel during the process. Don't try to avoid the feelings as the more you do, the harder it is to heal. I'm not saying I have it down as it is something I am working on. I just ask God for strength to deal with the pain and hurt. It's sad that the WAS don't realize how hard it is to deal with the losses that come with D. Guess they see it at a good thing? I don't understand but it is their journey to go through. Hang in there

Claire, I'm so glad you got to spend time with your MIL. Also that she's a person you care about & respect. My mom & my MIL are both people I struggle with. A friend used to call the judgmental voices in her head her "committee," and how she had to be more selective about who she lets on her committee. Neither my mom nor my MIL are allowed on my committee. I wish they could be. So I'm glad you got that time with yours and that it was kind.

It's interesting to me how different aspects of DBing resonate differently to all of us. For me, leaving H alone, detaching, and self-discovery seem to be the most important tools. You seem to gravitate more to the self-discovery/improvement and how you present yourself to your H. Thornton did a full LRT (tough stuff). GoatGal has a wide assortment of tools but GAL looks like her biggest tactic.

I wonder what might happen if you tried a different angle on your DBing? If co-parenting a little more strictly might change the way he sees you, and gives you more authority and self-confidence? Flexibility is mainly giving you resentment, which won't get you very far. Does that make it a cheeseless tunnel?

You seem like such a lovely, gentle person from here. I am so sorry it was a rough day for you. Your H is crazy to miss noticing how lovingly you treat others.

It is hard to send our kids off to do things we used to enjoy that we've been evicted from. Summer and holidays make that extra hard. What have you gained since he left? Besides your PMA and moving away from depression? What tangible benefits and relationships have you gained or enhanced as part of your personal growth? You gave me great encouragement the other day about the value of this experience. I'm going to guess your healing retreat was one thing... What else?

You are always on the short list of named people in my prayers. I hope you are OK soon. Hugs to you...

Originally Posted By: Maybell

I wonder what might happen if you tried a different angle on your DBing? If co-parenting a little more strictly might change the way he sees you, and gives you more authority and self-confidence? Flexibility is mainly giving you resentment, which won't get you very far. Does that make it a cheeseless tunnel?

Thanks for this great suggestion. I am working hard, in all relationships, to put some boundaries on my flexibility. I am allowed to say, "I'm sorry, I'm not available" without justifying it. I am allowed to say, "These are the times I am available" without giving any other explanation. I'm trying that with friends, with colleagues, with family, etc. It's helping.

So, I am going to set some boundaries. Even if I have nothing else but laundry and watching some TV on my agenda for my time, I am allowed to say, "I'm sorry, I'm not available to switch." That time is important for me to recharge, to take a break from being a mom, etc. Just because I don't have "plans" doesn't mean I don't need or deserve that time.

Quote:

You seem like such a lovely, gentle person from here. I am so sorry it was a rough day for you. Your H is crazy to miss noticing how lovingly you treat others.

Maybell, thank you very much for this. I tear up every time I read it, and I have read and re-read it many times. I am grateful for your presence on this board.

Good for you on protecting your personal space! I'm proud of you -- that's so hard to do without justification. I look forward to hearing how things are different for you as you grow more comfortable maintaining your boundaries.

Thank you for sharing that my words have done you some good. I have felt like such a taker here, and you have been particularly comforting. It is a relief to know I can return the warmth a little bit.

Be well, Claire!!

I'm about to send a serious boundary-setting email regarding parenting schedule. It's going to pi$$ him off, I'm pretty sure. It's probably going to push him further away. I haven't decided whether I care or not. The alternative makes me feel resentful, and also makes me feel like I am walking on eggshells. Not working for me.

Here we go. I haven't asserted myself like this around him in a while.

Good work on the boundaries, and I love that you're practicing setting them - I imagine it will make it so much easier when it comes to setting them with your H.

Whew. Need to pause and think. I am being tested, so before I respond to his email, I need to review validation, boundary setting, and the LRT techniques. In his reply to my email he made some bold statements that felt really hurtful and manipulative, and certainly had very little validation or acknowledgement of the fact that I am still carrying the great majority of child care duties.

His statements feel really out of alignment with my reality, but I know I can't try to convince him otherwise. I wish this forum was more private, because I don't feel comfortable sharing details here. I guess I just needed to vent a bit in a supportive space.

I think I've moved past the urge to snap back at him but still a lot swirling in my head.

Tough stuff, Claire. (( ))

People rarely (never!) react kindly to boundaries, so don't let his reaction put you off track.

Thanks, labug. So helpful to get feedback from vets. I had a good talk with a friend who has been supportive of DB. She offered some great advice: ok, so maybe you are not getting the payoff you would like from your months of DBing... but what is the alternative?

She is so right. Whether I still want to save my M or not... I'm not sure. But that doesn't actually matter. Because the DB strategies bring ME peace and inner strength and that is what matters.

Deep breaths. I'm going to ignore the way he is baiting me, try to validate his feelings (hardest part for me), and stick to my boundaries while offering some collaborative solutions. In other words, try to stay strong without giving him any ammunition.

I'm so glad you are laying out that boundary with him. That has been your biggest frustration in most of your posts and to put that away feels like a HUGE step for you. What good does it do to DB, validate, everything, if you are left feeling that kind of frustration? It solves nothing. So great also that your friend was so understanding and wise. Friends like that are PRICELESS.

Good luck with your response to your H. Regardless of how he responds to you it is important for you to be strong.

One thing about one of your earlier posts really struck me -- you said that you were worried that laying this boundary down would push him away. But the thing we've noticed in SO many other people's posts is that when we worry about pushing people away most is when we've done the most to let them push us AROUND. The party line among the vets is that a lot about DBing is counterintuitive, and when it feels uncomfortable is when you know you're doing it right.

So consider this boundary stamped and verified DB approved.

Sending you hugs, Claire, and power, and a big fat SMILE of pride!

Claire,

Nothing wrong with taking your time to respond or perhaps not respond at all. Your h is trying to push your buttons (I've gotten a few of those baiting texts myself) and I've found it most beneficial to wait (one I waited 4 days because I couldn't believe he had the audacity to text me such lunacy) until my response just *feels* unemotional.

I'm sorry you are struggling with this. You can do it!

Yes, definitely gonna let this one sit a bit until any nasty snarkiness has faded and I can simply say, "I understand how you feel... and this is my position. How can we solve this together? "

Claire,

Can I ask something? I understand you don't want to reveal too much, however, do you and h have a schedule? And does he just want to change schedule on a whim or does he just assume you will accommodate? Just curious..

We had a pretty regular schedule during the school year (where I had my D overnight 6 nights, he took her to his place 1 night, and came a few mornings and evenings to spend time with her. Then, we split weekends (he had her friday nite until sat afternoon, I had her sat afternoon- sunday afternoon. He came to my home to give her dinner and put her to bed Sunday evenings. I would go out for a few hours.

Now that it is summer, we agreed to change to an every other weekend schedule, and he said he wanted to cut back on his early morning visits.

Side note: (I have to leave for work very early during the school year. Until he left our home, I generally got ready quietly in the dark, and left while everyone else was still asleep. If my D woke up early, my H would sometimes go back to sleep after our babysitter came, so coming over to my home dressed and ready for work so early is a huge shift for him).

Anyway, there were still some loose ends to nail down regarding the summer schedule-- he is taking her out of town for a few days on his annual family vacation, I have my very first week-long business trip, our babysitter has vacation (I am considered the default caretaker during that time, since i am on summer vacation). He has used the phrase "we can figure things out ad-hoc" on several occasions. I try very hard to stick to our agreed upon schedule and rarely request anything more than minor changes-- which I always pose as requests.. His version of his side is different than mine-- he has made plans during his parenting time, and then emailed me to say he is not available. I think he has done this quite often; he thinks its very rare. Since she lives with me, I end up being the default.

He has certainly accommodated some of my schedule change requests, but has also simply said, "I'm not available". He has also had numerous out of town business trips since our D3 was born, lasting anywhere from 1-5 days.

I've reiterated calmly several times that we can both be flexible whenever we can, but having a default schedule makes it possible for both of us to plan our lives. He seems to think a schedule implies that I will be completely rigid, even though I have accommodated him on a number of occasions.

As Maybell said, it is definitely a cheeseless tunnel. His version of reality and mine are not matching up, so all I can do is very calmly and politely, without any judgement or criticism, say "I'm so sorry, I'm not available at that time". I don't need to enter a debate over who's time or plans are more important, or who made a plan first. It is my time, and if all I want to do is take a walk in the park, he doesn't get to guilt me into something because he has baseball tickets, or football watching plans, or whatever.

This is more ranting than I like to do on here. I try to keep it mostly about me, but oh well.

If he or any of his friends or family found this, I think these posts would make it hard to recover from, even if they are mostly about me. But this forum has been such a lifeline for me, and I feel like the likelihood of saving my M is small, so it is a risk I have decided is worth taking. Without the support of this forum I would be stuck and scared and angry, and that certainly didn't work for my M either!

Heh Claire. You've helped so many on this forum in recent times I thought I'd give you my two cents.
I may have mentioned this on my thread (can't remember now) but my WAW was shocked, and peeved, that I had booked a week off work for 'me time' last week.

She complained that I didn't tell her, she needed me for another week to mind D over the summer holidays and that "it's lucky for some".

I calmly told her it was 'me time', I was helping her pay for her sister to mind D for three weeks, had taken a day off work so WAW could go to a wedding as she had no childminder, was travelling a 50 mile daily round trip to take D to horse riding in a few weeks....

Anyway, my point is, you are right.... it is your time and "if all I want to do is take a walk in the park, he doesn't get to guilt me into something because he has baseball tickets, or football watching plans, or whatever" is correct!!!

Originally Posted By: claire7

Yes, definitely gonna let this one sit a bit until any nasty snarkiness has faded and I can simply say, "I understand how you feel... and this is my position. How can we solve this together? "

(Cue tires squealing)
Rethink that, we rarely understand how people are feeling because we don't live in there skin. You could say "I hear you."

If your boundary is your boundary and your reason for setting is about you needs and not about him, tell me why you need to discuss it with him again.

Thank you! Hmmm. This validating stuff is not easy for me!

Well, I can in many ways understand his interest in having lots of flexibility.... having a parenting schedule has certainly made my life more complicated in some ways-- I've had to change plans, forgoe social engagements, or work harder to make plans because of it.

On the other hand, in many ways it has made things much easier. I know when I will have time to myself and can plan around that! (Before this, every chance for time to myself required a request to my H.)

Maybe I can say I hear him about certain things, while simply restating "I'm not available" when I need to. Part of what he said was frustrating because it's like he doesn't have a full sense of a) reality and b) the impact of this separation on me as primary residential parent. But I'm going to let that go for now. We are not in a place where we are working on our R at all, and I don't need to prove anything to him or be validated by him.

I just need to keep my boundary clear and remind myself that I am not being spiteful, that I *have* been very accommodating in the past, and I'm happy with my R with my D3, especially since having more time to myself has made me a better mom in some ways.

Thanks again for the really helpful feedback.

More important than what's easier for you or what H wants, is what your D needs. I think your best bet is to keep that in the foreground any time you're negotiating details with H.

What a child needs is care and attention from both parents to the best of their ability, consistency, a regular and predictable schedule. To the best of both of your ability.

Adinva: yes, she is always #1. (My putting her #1 was part of what led to the breakdown of my M..but that is for another post).

I'm trying to find a balance, because recently my H has said (in diff messages) very conflicting things:
1) "we stick to our schedule most of the time, and she will be able to over come small changes" (when he is making the change) and
2) "I'm surprised you don't want to spend as much time as possible with our D3", (when it is me requesting a change, or saying I'm not available when he requests it).

There is a little bit more to it than this, but I just don't want to put more specifics here. My point is that I spend a LOT of time with my D3, I have primary physical custody by far, and since one of the issues in my M was that I often felt burnt out and didn't get enough time to myself (and resented my H for that), I am trying to find more of a balance.

Hope that makes sense?

Claire, without speaking to the validation part, I think you're absolutely on the right track.

FWIW, I told my H, every other weekend and reasonable access during the week. I told my kids every other weekend. So far it's been every other weekend that he takes them, and he calls every other day, unless they want to call him.

I'm really glad I lowered their expectations. They would be hurt otherwise.

So I don't know what to say to you other than to cheer you on with not agreeing to his changes and holding him accountable for keeping the schedule. Go, you!!

Thanks, Maybell. And guess what? He got a babysitter so that he could go to a friend's b'day party. He will see her for a bit in the evening and babysitter will put her to sleep. And I will have a night and morning off and he will have to come home to relive the babysitter and wake up with D the next morning.

And I found a solution to another schedule conflict we had that he tried to make me feel guilty about.

Whether he ever decides to give our M a go or not, I am definitely showing him and myself consistent positive changes. I'm keeping the road home as paved and smooth as I can... but that doesn't mean he will get to glide there in a throne. It will take some effort on his part, too.

Right?

Yes!! Don't you feel great?

Claire I don't know what I would do here without you.

Right back at you, Maybell. (( ))

Anyone watching the new show "Satisfaction" ? So curious to hear people's thoughts. There seems to be some DB strategies in play...

Been talking to friends, IC, even my hairdresser!... every one says they have seen changes in me, have tremendous respect for how I am handling this with grace and dignity. DB has literally changed my life.

But in terms of my M... my H has also noticed changes in me, has complimented me, generally speaks in neutral, sometimes friendly ways.

But now 9 months in, shows practically no signs that he sees a future for us. What do you do in a situation where your H just firmly believes that he can never feel love for you again, no matter how much you are able to change.

It's a stupid question, because I've asked it before, and I know the answer. And I know that he still has a lot of work on himself to do.

But I think this is where my real heartbreak comes in. Our M wasn't working for either of us... I needed to grow and change. But it does break my heart that he thinks the only solution is to D and start over apart. MWD voice is so rare-- there is so little pro-marriage (and optimistic) voices out there. So everyone says to feel sad but oh well, it happens and move on.

I keep finding myself wanting to share with him the things I have read that have convinced me that there is still hope for rebuilding our M in a new way. I've done so much work on me, and now I'm feeling rejected all over again. How can he not value me and our R enough to feel like it is worth trying to fall in love again? That hurts so much.

In a sad place for some reason today.

Claire, how are you today?

Have you seen positive changes in your H? Or is he not there yet?

Do you have a timeline in mind?

I've been thinking of labug's signature and 25yrs, both of them had a 2+ year journey to get to piecing & reconciliation.

Two years is a really long time to me and if I look at it that way I really wonder if I have the patience to stand for so long. I mainly have that perspective when I look forward, though. If I stand where I am and look AROUND, I see that I've just begun my second year, and it took all of the first year to get me to a healthy enough place to be able to contemplate even being in a relationship. I see that my H has only just now gotten himself to a place where he can begin to become a better person -- and he's not nearly as motivated as I have been. That is another kind of rejection, I agree. I'm curious to see how the changes you made last week will impact him.

If your changes are so obvious to all the world, then either they will slowly pull your H closer to you... Or you'll find them attracting some other life towards you. If your changes are truly bone-deep, you'll be able to see it. (I think you already can, just maybe it doesn't look like what you expected.)

I worry it's hypocritical of me to say this because I still struggle with it so much myself, but do you think it's possible that it's time to move to a new level of detachment, so that you can see more of your own fantastic future without him?

I wish I could say a magic word and bring us all to the place where we're really happy with our circumstances, whatever they turn out to be. Sending you warm wishes...

Maybell,
I think you must have some special powers. Today is my birthday. Thank you for this message today.

My birthday tends to bring up difficult reminders that I didn't get the kind of love I needed as a child. (My mother, for example, didn't bother to call me all day today because she knew she was going to see me at 4:00 this afternoon. And when I called to ask whether they were almost here, she answered, well, I wouldn't be able to describe it here but let's just say it wasn't what I would say to MY D3 on her birthday (which would be something loving and enthusiastic).

My mom is just not capable of that, because she didn't have that as a child. And while I've gotten better at accepting her for who she is, and having a bit more compassion for her, it doesn't change the fact that I had needs that were unmet.

And that has affected me to this day. I was thinking today how, even early on in our R, it was always difficult for my H to "speak my 'LL", which is words of affection or affirmation (you know, the stuff I never got as a kid-- see how it all makes more sense now?) He couldn't articulate why he loved me, specifically, or whisper sweet nothings In my ear, or even simply say, "wow Claire, you look amazing! " He could write it in a card, and did on special occasions, but even when i told him that I wanted/needed that, he couldn't give it to me.

So, this is my way of responding to your suggestion of detaching more. I was thinking about that today. I am a wonderful, beautiful, intelligent, loving, honest person. I am a great mom. I am capable of change and very willing to work very hard to rebuild our M. I am officially ready to say he is a FOOL to walk away from me.

Happy Birthday Claire! Celebrate all week long:-)

Claire, HAPPY BIRTHDAY to you!! I would have declared you a woman he was a fool to leave before now, but I'll raise a virtual glass of prosecco to you and say that this is the grand unveiling of Amazing Claire.

may your personal new year bring you lots of happiness!

Thanks so much for that, Maybell and Georgiabelle. I have a lot to look forward to in the coming year.

He took the time to buy me flowers (from my D) for my birthday, and gave me a card (from her), with a very sweet message (from her). That is something. He also sent me an email with a cute pic of my D3 while they were away with our his friends and their kids this weekend.

For himself, he wrote, "Happy Birthday Claire!" That was it. No emotion at all.

So, I decided to try a teeny experiment-- I had to email him with a logistics question, and added in some friendly joking related to his dad's visit today.

Got a straight up business-tone reply. Nada. Nothing.

So it goes. Onward. There is still some delicious birthday cake left, and a new bottle of rose' in the fridge. The celebration of ME continues...

Ok, folks. I could reallllly use some feedback.

Just got a long msg from H telling me he got a great promotion, which will also bring with it longer hours and more travel.

Somebody please either stop me from sending him a "seriously, how can you still believe that there is absolutely no hope for our R? How can you possibly say that you've "tried as hard as you could" to make it work?

Or, help me say something like that in a way that would not totally push him away.

Part of me wants to just tell him-- screw you, you'll have to deal with whatever scheduling headaches this causes YOU. This is what YOU want. This is the reality of D.

Deep breaths.
Help!

Claire, can you just say, "congrats on the promotion. Hope it brings you happiness." Beyond that is picking a fight, not detaching and pursuing all of will backfire. Right?

Claire, I wish I had advice for you. I don't. But you've been giving great advice to others so whatever you come up with won't need more than a bit of tweaking.

I understand where you're coming from. I'm sorry he isn't there.

I think part of what's affecting me so much (I'm falling apart at the moment) is that this is yet ANOTHER major life moment that we are not sharing. Babies have been born, birthdays, career and personal achievements, holidays, vacations... and each one is another reminder that we are not a family anymore.

I don't want this and I can't stop it. He's just one of those WAH that is just totally totally done no matter what.

The reality of this is hitting me and it's devastating.

Claire, I'm so sorry tonight is a rough one. I know the feeling of a WAH who is totally done. It is devastating that one person can have this much control over our lives and our daughters lives and handle it with so little care. I'm heartbroken and I'm heartbroken sitting here next to you. (((Hugs)))

I'm really sorry, Claire. I wish I could say more. But I'm sorry, and I know where you're coming from.

Thanks.

Ok, took some deep breaths and got out some good sobs. Re-reading his msg it's clear he still has a lot of anxiety about everything, including how I will react to things like this. Man, I have been pretty cool with regards to almost everything since mid-February. His SIL, his mother, his friends have ALL remarked on how I've changed. He just really doesn't believe that change is possible. That is so sad...for him, mostly.

So, my reply will be a 180. How's something like this:

"Congrats! That is great news and I'm very happy for you. Whatever schedule changes this brings, I'm sure we will figure it out. As for the date you requested to switch, I already have plans that night, but I can reach out to a babysitter to help out."

Feedback??

Claire,

I know this birthday has brought its share of heartache with a tremendous amount of growth.
I'm with Maybell, toasting you with a glass of Prosecco, even if I am a day overdue.

It's an emotional time, to be sure.

Is there anything positive you can glean from your H's announcement?

Just wondering...

----GGG

GGG-
Thanks very much.

I'm not totally sure what you mean?

I know that my H was feeling down for a long time that he hadn't been promoted, and he's been passed over for a couple of opportunities. He left me 9 months ago, and even before then he was talking about wanting to move to a new position with better opportunities within the company, and being frustrated that he couldn't find that. So, this is a great accomplishment for him and I'm sure will help with his mindset.

(Is that what you mean?)

I'm impressed by your ability to revisit. I like the email you have in mind. But maybe wait a bit till you get feedback from a vet? Not for any reason other than one more pair of eyes.

I hear you, Maybell. (Vets, where have you been?!!?)

Part of me wants to respond quickly, if only to show him that I can have a positive, detached, rational, solution-oriented (not selfish, negative, panicked) response RIGHT AWAY. That bodes well for a future R, right? Like, THIS IS ME, quickly. Not after several days of mulling it over.

He doesn't have to know that I spent the last hour crying my eyes out and begging for advice from strangers on the internet. Unless he finds this.

A stranger? You cut me, Claire. You cut me real deep.

Kidding.

I say, knock yourself out. SEND.

I think your response is awesome but agree with maybel about getting a vet's feedback first. Breathe, Claire. We're here.

Sent!

Thanks for the feedback and support.

Ok, maybe "stranger" is a bit harsh. Hmmm... how about "anonymous online friend"? No, that just sounds creepy. Gotta keep thinking about that one!

Talk me out of writing a "'rhea of the heart" message, please!?!?!

So, my reply will be a 180. How's something like this:

"Congrats! That is great news and I'm very happy for you. Whatever schedule changes this brings, I'm sure we will figure it out. As for the date you requested to switch, I already have plans that night, but I can reach out to a babysitter to help out."

Feedback??[/quote]

Claire, I'm not a vet but I would keep it short and sweet and take out the part about finding a sitter to help out. IMHO, This is something he needs to handle himself not for you to do for him. After all, he decided to leave so he's should deal with the issues that come up. Hope that helps

You're totally right. Shoot. Although I did just recently send him a message saying that when things are work related, we will both do our best to help out. (I would not have offered to help if it was strictly a social thing. It is a work-related thing, he says, connected to this new position .) And, it shows a change in me since I was often resentful/jealous of his work opportunity. The 180 for me is that I didn't immediately offer to cancel my plans or throw a fit about it. It means he will miss a night with his D3, again. That is a consequence.

I realized that I used to, quite often, get mad/be resentful of things that had perfectly good solutions that didn't involve me staying home with our D3.