I'm new,
No real idea who will see this but here we go ( I looked at the abbreviations but I'm winging it)
I thought I'd give my story but I think I'll give the "Coles notes"
Married 19 yrs, separated 2
When we were first married my w was a fun energetic woman. But very quickly into our marriage things started to change. After our son was born and I was hired at a ver good job it was decided that she would stay home. I would work. At the time she had just decided that we should move and 1.5 hrs away from the city to the country because she needed the space . Let me be clear that throughout our marriage this occurred a lot. W made all the decisions. Only because if she didn't get her way she would argue and push and fight and finally withdraw any support should my choice fail. It made daily life kinda miserable and I learned very quickly to let her have her way.
W stayed at home while I commuted and worked. In her mind stay at home meant watching our son. Not doing the laundry cleaning the house of preparing dinners. At least not on a regular basis. Nod eventually it didn't mean watching our son with. As soon as he was old enough off he went to daycare 3 days a week. She need a "little down". When our D came along several years later and the same pattern was applied. W took on part time jobs. And even though my check went into the joint account and paid bills, hers did not. Even today I still never know how much she makes when she is working because she has refused my requests to have her checks deposited in the joint account.
So this continues for years, kids in school w doing little around the house except sleeping and reading and enjoying her friends, but she always had time to make a honeydo list for the weekends whew!
7 years ago started the 5 year stretch without sex. Yes 5 years!!! I couldn't take it. She did something she did frequently, she went through my phone and saw I had written get rid of wife as one of my goals. She confronted me( she always confronted me when she went through my phone of opened my mail). And I finally had the guts to say yes. I want out. Since then it has been an up and down roller coast. I don't love her anymore. She cannot seem to get this. She says she's changed and now she realizes I was the problem all the time!!!
Welcome to the board
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Do you want to be married or divorced?
Thanks cadet,
I have spent the better part of life fighting depression. I have learned coping skills. Some good some bad. But I'm still here even though I've walked some dark places with myself. W knew this. But saw my actions and occasional behavior as a weakness. She considers herself a strong person.
W loves to read everything. Once she does she is an instant expert. After a few ic sessions she's cured. On a path. A better person. A strong person. I however am broken and weak. Everything must be my fault. But she still "loves" and wants to work on marriage. This after receiving a panicked email about how will she live how will she earn a living??? Maybe she could use the masters I paid for. Is it me? Am I being too harsh or does it sound a lot like she might love the paycheck more??
Thoughts?
Thanks for the response cadet.
W and I are firmly going to divorce. Whew! It's over! I still need to address the children. Working and living away from our house has put a little distance between s18 and d15. But we have started to rebuild. I'm glad I stayed long enough to get them to this age. W feels she was the long stable factor in their lives but recently they have both voice some real concerns. S " tunes her out" because she treats him like a 5 year old and d can't make a choice unless she thinks w will approve. Both need time and space. So now the work begins. W still has all her old habits but has happily masked them behind a new and righteous facade. Oh boy this should be fun...I'll let you know
OK but remember this is DIVORCE BUSTING website.
We are here to save marriages not destroy them.
I am sure there are lots of people that understand divorce too.
Probably myself included.
Keep posting or asking questions.
From your response to Cadet, it seems that you have your mind made up already, so I doubt that I will influence you at all, and I am okay with that.
It is also highly unlikely that you will find much support with your current stance on your marriage.
Many people here are fighting with every ounce of energy that they have, to be in a position of their spouse willing to work through their problems, and let their marriage become disposable...
Married 19 yrs, separated 2
When we were first married my w was a fun energetic woman. But very quickly into our marriage things started to change. After our son was born and I was hired at a ver good job it was decided that she would stay home. I would work. At the time she had just decided that we should move and 1.5 hrs away from the city to the country because she needed the space . Let me be clear that throughout our marriage this occurred a lot. W made all the decisions. Only because if she didn't get her way she would argue and push and fight and finally withdraw any support should my choice fail. It made daily life kinda miserable and I learned very quickly to let her have her way.
Why did she make decisions ?
Because she was in the moment and life more than you, with the hours and energy that you put into working ??
Was working more important than being in that moment with her ??
Very good job, to a Man = a LOT of time away from the home. You worked, and the more that you worked, the more obligation that you felt to the house, and the more obligation that you felt, the more entitled that you became, and the more entitled that you became, the more resentment you built, due to unmet, unspoken expectations...
You did have a say, and an opinion, you just "chose" not to voice it.
You are not a victim of her choices, you are only a victim of your own choices...
W stayed at home while I commuted and worked. In her mind stay at home meant watching our son. Not doing the laundry cleaning the house of preparing dinners. At least not on a regular basis. Nod eventually it didn't mean watching our son with. As soon as he was old enough off he went to daycare 3 days a week. She need a "little down". When our D came along several years later and the same pattern was applied. W took on part time jobs.
Wow, that is a LOT of resentment in those words....
So let me ask you this...
2 young children in the house...
Who do you think was caring for them while you were at work all day ???
Who was changing diapers, feeding, chasing around the house, Doctors appointments, pre-school, field trips, birthday parties, and the list goes on and on ??
Now, YOU may have been at working providing a stable financial life, yet being a full time Mother is just as exhausting, probably more exhausting than the relief that the working partner gets at their job...
I cannot tip my hat far enough, for what a SAHM does during her day. I didn't always get it either....
Did you ever once, stop living within your own head, long enough to be empathetic to her day ??
Did you ever try to listen to what her day consisted of ???
Her trials and tribulations through out raising YOUR children ???
How old was he when he went to Daycare ???
7 years ago started the 5 year stretch without sex. Yes 5 years!!! I couldn't take it. She did something she did frequently, she went through my phone and saw I had written get rid of wife as one of my goals. She confronted me( she always confronted me when she went through my phone of opened my mail). And I finally had the guts to say yes. I want out. Since then it has been an up and down roller coast. I don't love her anymore. She cannot seem to get this. She says she's changed and now she realizes I was the problem all the time!!!
You really should educate yourself on what drives the passion within a Woman...
Men have a very strong tendency to withdraw emotionally from a relationship when they are faced with OUR daily struggles of life...
Women withdraw from meeting a Man's physical needs, when the emotional part is not fulfilled...
Rough day at work ?
Who do we tend to unleash that on..
Bad commute ???
Who hears about that...
Some jerk at the office ???
Who hears our vent about that..
Yea, and when do we find the time to fuel our partners emotional fire ????
Men fuel their fire through the physical side of the relationship, women fuel their passion through the emotional side...
I would assume that the lack of sex was an EQUAL part of the routine...
You didn't feed the emotion, she didn't feed the physical...
And typically, when there is the lack of feeding those key elements, there is an outside reason when Men give up trying...hence her searching through your phone.
Was it the right thing to do ???
Probably not, and I do understand your resentment...
Although, if you are honest, she DID have good reason to be suspicious now didn't she ???
Look,it is real easy to sit back and find blame for one person during the demise of a relationship, and it is a lot easier to blame our spouse for our own deficiencies...
You sound angry, you sound entitled, and a little arrogant about how much that YOU gave to the Marriage. And I really hope that you are willing to take a look at YOUR role in the failure of your Marriage....because I am pretty sure, that SHE gave just as much, you just choose to not see it....
From what I read here, the mis-communication ran wild throughout your relationship. A lot of assuming on both parts, and the eventual punishing of each other though words AND actions. And I do not see you owning any of your part.
You said that you want to be Divorced...
So what exactly would you like to take from posting HERE ???
You will get help here, just maybe the not the help that you are expecting...
With your words, this becomes about healing you....
If you read this, and choose NOT to continue, then I wish you luck in your next relationship....
Cw_wc
Something about your post stood out to me...
"Ownership" is the word that comes to mind. I see a lot of the old me in your posts. A lot of blaming your W for the demise of the M. IMO, it take TWO to make and break an M. Since you have NO control over HER…why not take the energy and frustration that is apparent in your post and apply it to making yourself become the best man possible.
Here is what I see in your posts…
No real idea who will see this but here we go ( I looked at the abbreviations but I'm winging it)
I thought I'd give my story but I think I'll give the "Coles notes"
First you are posting on a public forum so trust me some one is going to see it. I find the way you wrote this to be a little condescending. Most of time people come here and are in pain and looking for answers to their problems. You seem to already have the answer i.e. you want to get a divorce. Personally, I have a funny feeling that although this is how you “feel” or rather this is what you “feel” you want, that deep down inside you are not sure. That is just my hunch.
Your first post is all about bashing your W. It comes across as if you had no issues in the M. As if you were perfect and she was a total wreck. I doubt that was the case. I suspect that somewhere in the middle is the truth. In other words, you f’ed up and she did too, which is normal dude. It happens. The key though…imo, is to ‘own” your chit and allow her to “own” hers. Here let me show you what I mean….
When we were first married my w was a fun energetic woman. But very quickly into our marriage things started to change.
If you look at this comment ^^^^…here is what I see.
1) YOU blame her for her loose of “fun and energy”. Have you consider that maybe she was upset with some of the things that you were doing? That maybe she did not know how to communicate how she was feeling to you and so she began to shut down? So CW_wc……. What type of chit did you do in the M. Were you the typical dude that just worked, paid the bills, spent time with the kids BUT NEVER really listened, understood or validated your W? FTR, I was that guy. My point is where do YOU feel your shortcomings were?
2) “Very quickly things started to change”. Ummm….now you sound like a victim. So things changed “quickly” but you stuck it out for 20 years. Let me ask you a question is that HER fault that YOU stuck it out as long as you did or is it YOUR (psstt….unless she was packing a pistol and had it to your head I think you know the answer). So if you can step back from your anger for a bit and take a look at what you wrote you may see what I see.
In keeping with my…thought on how your post seem to blame her for everything…..
After our son was born and I was hired at a very good job it was decided that she would stay home.
“it was decided”. Okay, was it a joint decision or did you or her decide? Now if you tell me that she TOLD you that she was staying home, then my response is….. did you feel that You needed to agree? If so, why? Did you not feel like you could stand your ground? If so, then whos’s fault is that – hers or yours? (Psstt…… FTR, we control OUR lives – no one else).
After our son was born and I was hired at a ver good job it was decided that she would stay home. I would work. At the time she had just decided that we should move and 1.5 hrs away from the city to the country because she needed the space .
Man…this really reminds me of my old self.
“I worked” – Okay, I get that, what else did you do? Did you stop romancing her, did you stop doing the things that may her fall in love with you to begin with, did you stop have porn star sex with her, where you so preoccupied with your “very good job”…that you left her off to side to stay home and take care of the kid? Look man, I am not trying to bash you …I just want you to consider her perspective and what SHE may have been feeling.
You say she wanted to move 1.5 hours away. Did you have to move? Did she force you? Have you considered the following….
1) Was a cheaper to move 1.5 hours away? Were you able to get more house for the money, or bigger space?
2) Was it a better move for the kids? Would it keep them grounded and healthy?
What I see in your post about the move….is almost like you are painting her as wanting to move just to piss you off or just because she wanted to be alone. Somehow I doubt that. Somehow I feel like she did it more so for the kids. Maybe a better school district….maybe because society teaches us (at least if you are 44 like myself) that “man works and takes care of the family and women stay home and raise kids”…..maybe dude, she wanted to raise the kids. Nothing wrong with that imo. The only issue I see so far is that maybe NEITHER of YOU knew how to communicate to each other.
Let’s keep looking at your post…..
Let me be clear that throughout our marriage this occurred a lot. W made all the decisions.
Okay….this is YOU playing the victim again. I wonder how tall are you? Is your W bigger than you? Was she a bully? Did she scare you?
Really dude, take a look at what you wrote. She was a bully or you were a whimp. One of the two. Bottom line….one of the things that I learned here was that women really want a man to lead. They really want a man to lead the “right way” though. They want to be “heard”…the want to be “validated”…that want to be “wanted”…
So Cw_Wc….did you do that to your W or did she just bully you?
Only because if she didn't get her way she would argue and push and fight and finally withdraw any support should my choice fail. It made daily life kinda miserable and I learned very quickly to let her have her way.
Once again….you are putting all of the blame on her. Poor old CW…his W was bully. She would argue with him and “not support him”….and because of that CW life was “miserable”.
Dude, own your feeling and YOUR choices.
If you felt miserable…did you consider therapy, did you consider have some porn star sex with her (trust me it helps), did you try other things? You gave into to her (assuming she argued) – own it – stop blaming her.
As I mentioned above, women want men to lead. So what if she did not “support you”. For example…if you felt that opening a business was the right move and she disagreed, did you guys sit down and talk about what it would be that she “needed” to feel better about YOUR choices?
W stayed at home while I commuted and worked. In her mind stay at home meant watching our son. Not doing the laundry cleaning the house of preparing dinners. At least not on a regular basis.
Remember what I was saying earlier…about “man vs women roles”….this comment ^^^ screams it.
Read it…
“W stayed at home while I commuted and worked” – Notice you said you worked, which implies that she does not. Notice that you stressed how she stayed home and you commuted, which implies that you had it harder than her. Notice it is subtle way to bash her and minimize her role. Can you see how maybe she felt minimized? Part of that IMO, is her fault and on her – part of it is how you probably came across.
Notice how you point out her role was to cook and clean….what about YOU dude? You could have cooked or you could have shared some of the responsibility with her.
Please dude…for you sake read your words again…
7 years ago started the 5 year stretch without sex. Yes 5 years!!!
First off…I’m wondering….how many jar of lotion did you go through in 5 years – just kidding, it was a joke.
Dude, I am not sure what to say on this one….the only thing I would say is this……
I have not met a women…who if you….
Validate
Take care of
Show they matter
Make sure that sex is NOT one sided
Show them how to lead
Respect them
Have fun with them
And Pursue them
Would not have sex with their partner.
So CW…why is it that you think she did not have sex with you? OH…and based on your update….you were married for 20 years….so let me get this straight….
Your W stood with you for 20 years
Dealt with what I would say is a minimizing husband
Had 2 kids
Gave up a career
And stood with you for 5 years while never give you sex….
Because…..?
Dude, you had a role in this.
You want a divorce – fine go get one. Here is the thing though……
IMO, unless you start looking at your role in this, you will have the same chit happen…with just a different women.
So my advice is take a look inside dude….take a look hard look inside. You may not like what you see….and it will be hard to change…but when YOU do….
Ohhh…it is so worth it.
"I have not met a women…who if you….
Validate
Take care of
Show they matter
Make sure that sex is NOT one sided
Show them how to lead
Respect them
Have fun with them
And Pursue them
Would not have sex with their partner. "
Yup^^^^^^^
This is something I KNOW and personally can attest .
If I don't feel appreciated, safe, valued, and placed first... then I feel hurt, used, as if I don't count, and unimportant.
Been there done that, and writing a new chapter
It is easy to dismiss what a SAHM does, or what YOU don't see on a daily basis. It is WORK ! It is physical AND it is emotionally exhausting and draining at times.
Does it have perks, occasionally... just like a job outside the home as well.
I'm hearing a man who needs to do a lot of introspection. A man who's pride has been hurt and has stuffed a lot of things down, because he didn't know how to communicate effectively in conflict.
Is it unusual? No. It is quite common. Does running away solve anything? Nope, just masks the original problem.
Can this be fixed, as long as there isn't any physical or emotional abuse, YES !
If you just want out... why are YOU on here? This is a place where we work on ourselves and our marriages. Where we honor the commitment we made to our spouse and to God.
We get hit upside the head if we are stubborn and don't see the whole picture.
Welcome to Hell! Just kidding... But in a way, not. We go through it because we care and love our spouse. We want to be a better person.
So again, why are YOU here? Do YOU want to put in the work and time, or do YOU just want to be a victim? Because what I see presently is an individual who is his own victim.
Hey CW....very interesting post I will say. As others have said, people generally come here in an effort to save their M, so I'm a little confused as what you're hoping to get from the community.
As Eric said, maybe in the back of your mind you still question if it's the right choice? You certainly sound like you have tons of resentment and hurt....and that tends to cloud our judgement.
One thing I often say is DB is about saving your M, but if you do the work, even if you don't manage to save your M, you can save yourself. Perhaps in your case, that's a place to focus since you're not interested in the former (at least not at the moment).
So my advice is take a look inside dude….take a look hard look inside. You may not like what you see….and it will be hard to change…but when YOU do….
Ohhh…it is so worth it.
That is super advice. Most of us don't want to look in the mirror, to take responsibility, to own OUR choices. It's hard. It's especially hard because most of the time we look and think, "how awful." I know I did....I was embarrassed, ashamed even.
So start there....what don't you like about YOUR role in the M? What don't you like about YOU?
As Eric said, if you don't address your own stuff, you will most likely drag that from one relationship to the next. Do yourself a favor, regardless as to whether you choose to work on your M or not, work on yourself.
Mach and eric
A lot of insight. Thank you.
Yes I am mad. And hurt and a lot of things. And yes my post come across as one sided and arrogant. Not much I can do to change that. You may both be right. I don't know anymore. I'm tired. I'm hurt I'm angry I'm fed up. Yes divorce is one solution. There are others. I'm reading and re reading you words. Perhaps she's right perhaps you are too. Maybe this is my fault. I don't know anymore. And again I'm tired. Do you know how that feels???? I mean real exhaustion, wiped out nothing left tired? You have both been here for a long time. 14 years and 16 years. Your responses are hard and even arrogant. Understandable. I didn't give you much to work with. But when you invest every inch of your being into someone(and I did) and they take you are left empty bitter and mad. Your both right. I'm not here anymore. I desperately wanted to be. I love my wife with everything. I gave her everything inside me. So yes please judge me because I cannot write with a peaceful mind. I get that. But you'd be wrong to think that I didn't give myself to her. I am at an end I simply cannot turn back from.
Good forum. Thank you
Eric,
Let me apologies. I really don't know how these posts/ forums work. You've been here for a decade. I've only ever used fb to post vacation photos so if there is a protocol or I've stepped over a boundary, my apologies
Ambivalent,
Victim?? No. I'm not being a victim. Truly not. I didn't "woe is me" during our marriage. I fell out of love.
Of course I have issues and defects. What human doesn't. And during the course of our marriage I verbalized a lot of things that were simply ignored. My fault maybe.
This may be db but I've read a lot of posts in here. Not all charitable. Not all working towards an r. I stated what I've come from and how I feel. You can see my anger and hurt
No need to apologize CW. Glad that you found this forum and very sorry that you find yourself here. It is never too late to learn about oneself and change those things that you dont like about you. The more you post and share the more insight you will get. Nothing lost by becoming the best you can be.
Did you ever once, stop living within your own head, long enough to be empathetic to her day ??
Did you ever try to listen to what her day consisted of ???
Her trials and tribulations through out raising YOUR children ???
All the time. For the record I worked to give her what she asked for. And when I was home I listened and did what I could whenever I could. I gave up most of my personal enjoyment. I validated, compliments supported assisted and gaveYes!!!! Yes!!! And yessssss!
From your response to Cadet, it seems that you have your mind made up already, so I doubt that I will influence you at all, and I am okay with that.
It is also highly unlikely that you will find much support with your current stance on your marriage.
Many people here are fighting with every ounce of energy that they have, to be in a position of their spouse willing to work through their problems, and let their marriage become disposable...
Originally Posted By: Cw_wc
Married 19 yrs, separated 2
When we were first married my w was a fun energetic woman. But very quickly into our marriage things started to change. After our son was born and I was hired at a ver good job it was decided that she would stay home. I would work. At the time she had just decided that we should move and 1.5 hrs away from the city to the country because she needed the space . Let me be clear that throughout our marriage this occurred a lot. W made all the decisions. Only because if she didn't get her way she would argue and push and fight and finally withdraw any support should my choice fail. It made daily life kinda miserable and I learned very quickly to let her have her way.
Why did she make decisions ?
Because she was in the moment and life more than you, with the hours and energy that you put into working ??
Was working more important than being in that moment with her ??
Very good job, to a Man = a LOT of time away from the home. You worked, and the more that you worked, the more obligation that you felt to the house, and the more obligation that you felt, the more entitled that you became, and the more entitled that you became, the more resentment you built, due to unmet, unspoken expectations...
You did have a say, and an opinion, you just "chose" not to voice it.
You are not a victim of her choices, you are only a victim of your own choices...
Originally Posted By: Cw_wc
W stayed at home while I commuted and worked. In her mind stay at home meant watching our son. Not doing the laundry cleaning the house of preparing dinners. At least not on a regular basis. Nod eventually it didn't mean watching our son with. As soon as he was old enough off he went to daycare 3 days a week. She need a "little down". When our D came along several years later and the same pattern was applied. W took on part time jobs.
Wow, that is a LOT of resentment in those words....
So let me ask you this...
2 young children in the house...
Who do you think was caring for them while you were at work all day ???
Who was changing diapers, feeding, chasing around the house, Doctors appointments, pre-school, field trips, birthday parties, and the list goes on and on ??
Now, YOU may have been at working providing a stable financial life, yet being a full time Mother is just as exhausting, probably more exhausting than the relief that the working partner gets at their job...
I cannot tip my hat far enough, for what a SAHM does during her day. I didn't always get it either....
Did you ever once, stop living within your own head, long enough to be empathetic to her day ??
Did you ever try to listen to what her day consisted of ???
Her trials and tribulations through out raising YOUR children ???
How old was he when he went to Daycare ???
Originally Posted By: Cw_wc
7 years ago started the 5 year stretch without sex. Yes 5 years!!! I couldn't take it. She did something she did frequently, she went through my phone and saw I had written get rid of wife as one of my goals. She confronted me( she always confronted me when she went through my phone of opened my mail). And I finally had the guts to say yes. I want out. Since then it has been an up and down roller coast. I don't love her anymore. She cannot seem to get this. She says she's changed and now she realizes I was the problem all the time!!!
You really should educate yourself on what drives the passion within a Woman...
Men have a very strong tendency to withdraw emotionally from a relationship when they are faced with OUR daily struggles of life...
Women withdraw from meeting a Man's physical needs, when the emotional part is not fulfilled...
Rough day at work ?
Who do we tend to unleash that on..
Bad commute ???
Who hears about that...
Some jerk at the office ???
Who hears our vent about that..
Yea, and when do we find the time to fuel our partners emotional fire ????
Men fuel their fire through the physical side of the relationship, women fuel their passion through the emotional side...
I would assume that the lack of sex was an EQUAL part of the routine...
You didn't feed the emotion, she didn't feed the physical...
And typically, when there is the lack of feeding those key elements, there is an outside reason when Men give up trying...hence her searching through your phone.
Was it the right thing to do ???
Probably not, and I do understand your resentment...
Although, if you are honest, she DID have good reason to be suspicious now
I did all of these and more. I never stepped out of our marriage. Not once. Did I unload on her. No more then is normal. Did I listen to her days her wants her requests. All the time. Did I compliment her. Hell yes. Did I woo her. I don't know sending her flowers every month dinners out anything I could think of. I sent get flowers as a gift once. Every month for a year. So she would hav fresh flowers delivered. Her response. His much did you pay because the the bouquet isn't very big!
Ya I tried
Thank you rick
Ya I'm being a prick and I know it. But damn it I wanted this so much. I have children. I never wanted children, horrible to say but I love them and would never give them up for anything.
I loved my w until it hurt. I trusted her. She was everything to me.
Btw you guys are brutal (lol). No room for empathy
And I hate the acronyms. I keep running back to the newbie post to see what you are saying
You say you fell out of love with your wife. How does that happen? Im facinated by how that hapoens. Mine stopped loving me too. May be you can help me understand and I could get some closure.
^^ me too. Or how a person could refuse to believe that there is any chance of reconciling and being happy together again.
CW,
That was a rough welcome! You did come out of the gate like a tiger, but still!
I read lots of anger, resentment and frustration, but I don't buy that you are done. If you were done, you wouldn't be posting here -- why would you? My wife is done, and she has no interest at all in what I'm doing, nor pondering what went wrong, she's simply moved on.
If you're done, why haven't you moved on?
The way you write comes across as someone trying to convince themselves that they are done because you feel helpless and don't see a way forward.
It definitely reads like your wife gave you a rough run of things. If she withheld sex for 5 years like you say, then she should not be surprised at all that you would leave -- that's cruel and unusual punishment!
Why did she do that?
I assume you talked about it -- what did she say? How did she explain her choices? That's a pretty major problem.
Let's do this though -- let's assume that we accept your version of things 100%, you were married to an incredibly selfish "taker" who wrung you out, emotionally abused you, and left you out to dry.
What now?
Questions to ask:
1) Why would you tolerate a relationship like that? What about you said that it was okay?
2) What did you do to try to improve it? Why didn't it work?
3) What have you learned about yourself through this process such that you can avoid getting involved with another total witch?
We tend to be attracted to people who abuse us in familiar ways. There is something about this treatment that drew you in -- what was it?
Why did you stay with it?
In my case, I am attracted to women who make me work hard for their affection and approval. That's how I grew up, I had to earn the love I got. I ended up marrying a woman who did not love me and spent the next 20 years trying to get what she was not willing to give.
That's what I need to figure out, how do I avoid that next time around? What work do I need to do on me so that I'm not fooling myself again? How can I get into a healthy, mutually satisfying relationship and feel good about it?
What's your journey?
I.M.Out
Gabby and Claire
I don't think she knew or even knows what love is or means
I agree, mine walked without a back wards glance. How can they? Why do they find it so easy?
He said just the other day I loved to much invested too much $ your nasty, never coming back. I had hardly even opened my mouth. The insults kept coming. Sish sigh. I'm human. Totally.
unlike him who is perfect even having an affair. Yeah.
Ggrass,
I'm the one leaving because I couldn't stay. W says she loved with everything and maybe for her it was. I don't know anymore. I'm hollow. I just got to the end of my rope and lost faith. She thought I had affairs, I didn't. She said I was cold and distant, maybe, but truthfully I think that was the result of years of being pushed away.
Rick. It ain't easy. It takes years and years and years.
I fell in love with w the day I met her. And for a good amount of time that love was very deep. But after marriage w stopped being w. She changed. And the changes weren't good. And the changes weren't easy to see, they were small and slow but they were there. And after 17 years she wasn't the person I feel in love with. No before everyone jumps in with "isn't change part of life and growth". Yes of course it is. But her changes weren't with the m. She didn't grow with me as a couple. I don't really know how to explain. Sorry .
Mine accused me on 4 separate occasions in one year alone of having an affair!
He found a number for a bloke, who did electronics repairs in my car. I forgotten I had it,I was having a full on affair with the man! It was so often I ended up saying to him, the only person I ever had accuse me of an affair was having lots themmselves, so who is she if your thinking of affairs?
I don't know you rick so it's hard to say why your w fell out of love. I only can say that for me when there is no trust compassion empathy respect then love is very difficult to maintain. My w calls herself a strong woman. When you put labels on things it becomes easy to justify behavior. She would say I do this or that because I'm a strong woman. Sorry if you don't like it. There was no ability or room for anything in her but her.
Cw it sounds to me like you and your wife both reached out in ways that didn't connect with the other. I'm curious if you've tried counseling?
Maybell
We started, but the c agreed that I at least needed some individual work first. I have been in ic ever since.
Rough. But sticking to it
Gabby
You're right. Harsh. I think I need to think and explain more before I post. Putting feelings into words is a bit of a struggle
Ggrass,
I'm the one leaving because I couldn't stay.
W says she loved with everything and maybe for her it was.
I don't know anymore.
I'm hollow.
I just got to the end of my rope and lost faith.
She thought I had affairs, I didn't.
She said I was cold and distant, maybe, but truthfully I think that was the result of years of being pushed away.
Lets not worry about her - you can only CONTROL YOU and FIX yourself.
LOVE is a CHOICE.
Why are you hollow?
How can you FIX that part of YOU.
Are you cold and distant?
WHY?
These are all great questions. Problem is how do you answer without looking like a victim. I don't want to be a victim. I'm not looking for sympathy but every time I write it reads that way. So I'm struggling to put emotions to words. I hope you can understand.
I'm hollow because for years the m was about her. Not being harsh or loading her with the responsibility of the break down in the m. I think she would probably agree. On my side I didn't know how to ask? To ask to be a part of the m. I come from a family of six. Everyone had a role. Mine was to smile and nod and say no no it's ok I don't mind. ( ya sounds victemish but try to understand a little). As I grew up I never learned to leave that role behind. I need to fix issues and problems and people but I never learned to put myself first. When I did I felt guilty and developed a coping habit of lying because I didn't know how to say this is what I want.
^^^^ Okay now we're getting somewhere.
Your role was to play along to get along. And you know that you lie to avoid and look better.
This is HUGE in a marriage. This is also an insight that needs reconditioning and lots of work.
I believe every marriage can be saved , as long as there is no abuse.
Your marriage really doesn't sound all that unusual. Matter of fact, typical in many ways. What I am hearing is that you no longer want to try... it is just too hard!
I call B.S. on that. NOTHING in life is easy and yes marriage and lasting love takes WORK ! You are angry at yourself and projecting all that resentment and anger onto your wife.
Rather than blame her for what you're feeling , you need to own your BIG part in this. You own half of it. She owns half of it.
Again...WHY are you HERE if you don't want to save your marriage?
I don't think you are done! I think you want sympathy and a place to dump... this is NOT that place.
There is a difference when the LBS dumps and vents... why? Because they are working on themselves and trying to work on their marriages.
You sir , are living in the past. Because you chose to take your birth family role into your marriage, it is not the responsibility of your spouse to change you. You have to change yourself. If you allowed the marriage to be about her, YOU allowed it.
Marriage is about the two of you together. When in an argument or making financial decisions, the best question is : " Is this good for us? Is this good for our marriage?
I believe reading " Love Busters " and reflecting on what YOU contributed to the problem is a great place to start. Another awesome book is " Men Are From Mars And Women Are From Venus "
The last book is great to see the other side, and hear what people are really saying. It allows us to see how we start arguments, and also how to approach conflict in a loving manner.
YOU sir have a choice. Love is a choice and hormones and chemicals.
So I ask again, WHY HERE? If you just want out... then find a I want out of my marriage divorce site.
Or start over with a beginners mind. Put the past behind you and work on the present.
And yes, just because you didn't sit around and say " whoa is me " doesn't mean you don't have a victim mentality. You make excuses for yourself, and you don't have the same empathy for your wife. The one you vowed to stick with " ...for better and for WORSE. ". Obviously you see it as worse ,presently. You have the opportunity to change that.
You have the opportunity to work on YOU and make yourself into the best person you can be.
So what's it going to be? Run away from your problems and the marriage issues , half of which are yours. Or are you going to be an adult, face the challenges head on and work?
Sorry ambivelant. I think the last few post are me saying I take a huge responsibility for what's happened
Why am I here? Why is anyone here. Yes I stated I was fine with going forward with divorce. But does that mean I can't continue to look and examine. I had hope right up until recently.
But I'm asking if you lose that feeling of love can it come back? You said to work on the marriage. Obviously we both tried but we hadn't really identified the problem. By the time we did I felt empty. Are you telling me I'm not allowed? Through ic I have identified many of my own issues . I know the things I have done and am working to correct. I guess I was hoping that in here someone would say ya I fell out of love. I lost the hope and feelings and here are some things I did to correct that. I guess not
I guess I was hoping that in here someone would say ya I fell out of love.
I lost the hope and feelings and here are some things I did to correct that.
I guess not
Again - Love is a Choice.
Can those feelings come back? - YUP.
Is it work? - Yup
My prediction is that one day you will figure this out.
Until you do you will continue to FAIL.
Sorry buddy - I understand that you dont have those feeling right this minute.
At this place you can learn how to love.
Not sure that is really what you want though.
These are all great questions. Problem is how do you answer without looking like a victim. I don't want to be a victim. I'm not looking for sympathy but every time I write it reads that way. So I'm struggling to put emotions to words. I hope you can understand.
I think it's important to say it in a way that owns it. For example, instead of saying "she did x," say "I allowed her to do x." Own your role in it. If you didn't communicate, focus on that, and so on.
I believe that when you enter into a M, you automatically own 50% of the responsibility for that M. It's never one person's fault....you both share in it. But the only thing you can do is address your 50%...own it, change it, forgive yourself, and do better.
I come from a family of six. Everyone had a role. Mine was to smile and nod and say no no it's ok I don't mind. ( ya sounds victemish but try to understand a little). As I grew up I never learned to leave that role behind. I need to fix issues and problems and people but I never learned to put myself first. When I did I felt guilty and developed a coping habit of lying because I didn't know how to say this is what I want.
This here is the start! This is where you start addressing your "whys." Why am I like this? Where does this come from? And then....who do I want to be? Who do I want to show the world?
Keep digging....you are getting some great questions and advice. Read it....re-read it....think about it.
CW
A lot of insight. Thank you.
You’re welcome. I am going to assume that you are here because you really want to fix YOU. So, please slowly read and think about everything that everyone says. Ok?
Are you sitting down? This may sting. Oh…btw, the rule of thumb is that if something “stings”, it usually means that it is something that you need to look at. Remember that.
Before I go through all of you post, I have to tell you that I think you are not done – not even close. I actually think you are pissed the F off. Probably because you do not understand what the real issue is. And I doubt that it was just the 5 years with no sex. Although, that did not help.
I want you to know that I believe in YOU. I believe that YOU can really turn chit around and become someone that any women would be a fool to leave. It takes work though – A LOT – this is not a….Once I feel good I’m done effort – NOPE it is much deeper than that. You need to first understand why you are the way you are (FTR, I am not going to focus on YOUR W – this is about YOU).
Then once YOU understand you can begin to make healthy choices about HOW you want to LIVE YOUR LIFE. Be that with your W or be it alone. Personally, I believe you can turn chit around with your W but FIRST the OLD M MUST DIE. And I mean dead. Kaputuz!
Put a fork in her – done. Get me?
Here is what I see in your posts….
Yes I am mad. And hurt and a lot of things. And yes my post come across as one sided and arrogant. Not much I can do to change that.
You are probably mad at a lot of things. Yourself - is probably one of the biggest ones. Why though? What exactly are you angry about? How long do you want to hold on to the anger? Cause holding on to it is like drinking poison hoping the other person will die. It does YOU no good. It does YOUR kids no good. So who the f*ck are you really hurting? YOU.
You acknowledge that come off as one sided and arrogant. Why in the world do you want to come across that way? IMO, cause deep down inside of you is a hurt little boy – who only knows how to express how he feels with ANGER. It is normal dude. YOU can change it THOUGH. It really is a choice. So I call bullchit on the nothing I can do about it statement. That is a lie that you are telling YOURSELF so that YOU avoid doing the hard work.
So CW….can you choose TODAY to let all of the anger go?
Can you say to yourself TODAY that 1) I will forgive myself 2) I will forgive the people that have hurt me and 3) Today I choose to be HAPPY!
You can do it man!
Well if ya don’t know maybe dude…stop thinking about the divorce and start thinking more about how to feel better. “Don’t know usually means…you ain’t done.
I'm tired. I'm hurt I'm angry I'm fed up.
I have 3 kids…2 of them are teenagers…I have a demanding job….I have a hot fiances who love to have porn star sex….I have a crazy ex w…. Dude…I am tired too. That is life. I will not chuck the kids, ditch the fiancé or quit my job. YOU need to find an outlet for you. Another piece of putang…is not the answer. What hobbies do you have? Find an outlet and also CHOOSE to not stay hurt and angry.
Yes divorce is one solution. There are others.
Yep it is an option…the easy option if you ask me. Know what is harder? To stand – stand by and work on yourself so that you can blow you W away with the new YOU. You can wuss out and go the easy road (I’m not gonna judge) or you can let go of the anger…think about the good times that you and W had, think about the kids, think about how much better it could be IF things could work out. You can focus on not being a macho di*k…and really focus on being a MAN (I’m not saying you are not a man so don’t get all defensive)… Here is something to think about….
MEN LIVE THERE CHOICES
BOYS blame everyone else.
Perhaps she's right perhaps you are too. Maybe this is my fault. I don't know anymore. And again I'm tired. Do you know how that feels????
First I do know how it feels. At one point I was willing to give my left nut to reconcile. Wanna see all of the gory details..go read my old threads. What I find funny is the use of “perhaps and maybe” in your response. That is not ownership. And believe me – you own half of the failure here dude. Don’t kid yourself. You say you don’t know anymore – maybe that is because you are confused with how YOU feel….not to mention not knowing how exactly she feels. Oh and BTW, if you ask her tonight how she feels do not expect her to coming running to your arms – she may just tell you to go f*ck yourself. Why? She is hurt too. Just like You man. Here is the thing though…..Hurt….is a feeling…..just like happiness….just like anger….just like sadness. Feelings brother will come and go. What is important is to learn and understand how much control you have over YOUR feelings. You do. Yes you will get anger BUT you can CHOOSE not to STAY angry. Right now YOU can CHOOSE to STAND for YOUR W! Yep…Stand for her even though she may want out.
Or you can choose the easy road.
For better or for worse – “member those words. Well this is the “worse” part – anybody can do the better part.
Have you consider btw, that maybe she felt she was living in the worse part…but was hoping for a LONG time while you were off working that the “better” part would happen. Chance are she is tired too.
I CHOOSE to be optimistic…so I think that BOTH of YOU are tired – Tired though is not DONE.
Your responses are hard and even arrogant. Understandable. I didn't give you much to work with. But when you invest every inch of your being into someone(and I did) and they take you are left empty bitter and mad. Your both right. I'm not here anymore. I desperately wanted to be. I love my wife with everything.
I am sorry you feel that I was hard. Next time I’ll use pink colored text. I do not believe I am hard. I am too the point….and no I have not been here 14 years. I’ve been here a few. I will forever be grateful for what DB taught me…that is why I am passionate when I post to you. I see hope dude. You imo, see anger, I see love, you see divorce. My hope is that though this process you see what YOU did wrong and that YOU change it. For you….for your kids….and f*ck maybe for your W or ex.
I want you to know that women are very keen on men’s words.
Men tend to be flippant with them. I know I was.
Remember this…… ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.
So let’s look at your actions…and words….
ACTION – “I want a divorce”
WORDS – “I Love my wife with everything”
So which is it?
I gave her everything inside me.
I have no doubt that you did. Some of it was good…some of it was probably bad. In some ways, you gave her the best you could based on what you knew. She did the same probably. Well now you have a chance to learn better tools for YOU and for HER.
I've only ever used fb to post vacation photos so if there is a protocol or I've stepped over a boundary, my apologies
No apologizes needed. Trust me dude…your words do not hurt me. I know and LOVE me. 
Bullchit! Go read your post again. Psst….looks like something “stung”…hmmm….maybe something that you need to look at. IMO, you were totally playing the victim. Wanna stop – simple – own your mistakes. Post more about those and less about what SHE DID. It’s like when my daughter says she didn’t do her chores because I did not tell her to – even though she knows she has to, even though we have discussed it with her 40 times…. She chose to blame me instead of owning the fact that she did not do her chores.
And during the course of our marriage I verbalized a lot of things that were simply ignored. My fault maybe.
Notice the use of the word “maybe” again. Notice that yes you verbalized a lot of things…..question….did you verbalize it in a manner that she understood? Let me give you and example:
- Honey where the f*ck is dinner – I TOLD you to have it ready when I get home.
Vs.
- Honey, do we have dinner plans tonight? Is there something that you are in the mood for? (then pause or as we like to say here STFU – and listen to what she had to say)
DB is all about communication buddy. That imo, is one of your big issues – probably hers to. It can be fixed.
Did you ever once, stop living within your own head, long enough to be empathetic to her day ??
YES but does it matter what I do? Can you? Can you train yourself to make a CHOICE..and that CHOICE be to be empathetic towards her? You ask as if you do not know if you can do it. IMO, the anger that you are holding on to is NOT allowing this to happen.
For the record I worked to give her what she asked for. And when I was home I listened and did what I could whenever I could. I gave up most of my personal enjoyment. I validated, compliments supported assisted and gaveYes!!!! Yes!!! And yessssss!
FTR, this sound like one of the most selfish responses I have seen. Damn dude! “gave up most of my personal enjoyment”. Lemme ask you….how much did she give up for you?
Men are so different than women. Did you know that?
You gave up so much of yourself…..
Have you considered….that maybe just maybe…if you gave a little more…that she would melt in your arms? Have you really given her needs as much thought to your own? Personally, when I was first married I did not. [censored] to say..but it is the truth. I did not because I did not know HOW TOO. That is the piece I wonder if you see….can you see that some of your mistakes were not really your fault but it does not mean that you do not own them? Can you see that maybe your upbringing, your past relationships played a role in this?
I’ll use my own personal sitch as an example…
My Mom was married to my brother’s dad when she cheated on him with my dad. When I was born her H was away in the army – my dad…said…not my kids, left 20 bucks on the table and I have never seen him since. Sooooo….I grew up with abandonment issues. When I was married, I carried that chit into the M. It but a lot of pressure on the M. Add to that, that I did not trust my W, which as I can look at it was the result of MY issues. It was not until I really worked on my own chit that I was able to see this. I thank god for these boards and the people on here that helped me.
Fast forward to a few months ago…..
I’m laying in bed naked with my fiancé (just had porn star sex again)…and she looks over and says to me…”how is it that you can trust me – after what your ex did” – my response – You are not my ex, you have not done anything to make me not trust you and honestly….it is the work I do everyday – I choose to not let me own issues, have an effect on our R. So when the mind demons come and whisper “ya can’t trust her – remember your mom”…I choose to say NO – I do trust her.
My point here dude…is that YOU really can choose to change how you look at things.
I have a lot more to post but I have to go. I’ll check up on you later..in the meantime do the following for me…
Write down 10 things that you love about your w
Write down 10 things that you love about you
Write down 10 things/dreams that you have…goals if you will
Peace,
Eric
Eric.
A lot of stings. I reread my posts. Yes they look like a little angry boy. Yes they look like a victim. Guilty.
So let me start again.
I met my wife and fell in love within seconds. Not minutes not weeks not years seconds. She is /was( please for the love of god don't crucify me on this) first and foremost my very best friend. She was( I can say was now) my lover my support my confident. Everything.
I came to the marriage with some ideas. Mistake 1. I brought my ideas. She came with hers. And for a long time it worked. I didn't always get my way and if I'm going to be truthful her way was so far removed from how I grew up that it was exciting to step somewhere new.
I have huge faults. Suppress my emotions. Don't argue, accept what I've been told. Yes emotionally I am/was not very advanced. Can't say why. Good loving family. Nice childhood strong parents. Maybe I was just built this way. I don't offer an apology but in working with my ic I'm starting to identify emotions. Can anyone relate to what it's like to only feel anger or joy but not jealousy,envy relief,....... Well that's me.
So in that regards yes very unfair to w. How can you fix something you don't know is wrong. She didn't know and neither did I.
But as our marriage progressed it FELT TO ME that she new I couldn't voice my wants and simply took advantage of that and did as she pleased. I'm saying felt to me not she did because in the very short time I've been here I realize that this is about me and my issues not her.
This pattern continued for a decade. The give the take. The lead the follow. Not her fault I see now. But in doing this I lost so much of what I felt for her inside. My space became empty. And the more I withdrew inside that the more she seemed to me to be happy about it.
I came into this forum mad angry and hurt. I wanted to yell. Several of you slapped me down hard. I can only say thank you.
But my worry my fear is that I have lost all the feelings and they will never come back. I've lost the woman I have loved and my best friend. Recent events which I am not ready to share have also caused me to loose my trust.
This has been a very long road. And just when I thought it was coming to the end you guys hand me a map and say surprise lots left.
Thanks
FTR, this sound like one of the most selfish responses I have seen. Damn dude! “gave up most of my personal enjoyment”. Lemme ask you….how much did she give up for you?
I think I'd argue this one. Again I'm obviously not good at relaying my emotional state.
I think I did support her and her work and wants. Very much so. Almost anything she expressed a desire to do I supported and assisted wherever I could. I don't think she would argue that. From her recreational actives to returning to school to finish her degree and complete a masters I was supportive. And not just financially. I volunteered at her events I changed my schedules to meet hers I listen to her, read her papers from school when she asked. I even read some of her assigned readings when she wanted to be able to discuss topics and wanted me to understand. So although you say it sounds selfish I really did support her choices and decisions. And not just with my checkbook. But with my time.
I am sorry you feel that I was hard. Next time I’ll use pink colored text.
Lol. Sorry but you made me laugh. F*#k I swear these post aren't me. I can do better then this
Man you remind me so much of me. Always keeping scores. My ex did the same. The difference. I acknowledge her supporting me in going to college and grad school. She was a great cheerleader. But she could never admit how supportive i was of her and wishes and goals. She dismissed everything i did to support her. DO YOU KNOW HOW HURTFUL THAT IS?
Rick I'm not sure I understand.
I'm not keeping score. Several people have asked. Did you do this. Did you do that? What did you do? I was only replying.
This is getting difficult to follow.
Did you support her. In the way she needed ?
Cadet
I'm going to disagree with love is a choice. Love is an emotion. How we deal with that emotion is the choice. My problem....do I still have that emotion.
I think many of us are here because we believe that if we choose to love someone (as a verb, something you choose to do or not), that will help us more easily *feel* that emotion towards someone.
Love is a choice. It becomes an emotion when you choose to consistently, over time, behave lovingly, even in the absence of an unconsciously motivating emotion. It becomes less conscious when the efforts are made AND RECOGNIZED mutually.
I know this for certain because although I am currently the LBS, several years ago I was emotionally a WAW who wasn't actually in a position to walk away. I absolutely would have if I could. Fantasized about it constantly over several months. Ultimately I faced the reality that I was going to have to make my own situation better. My H had very little clue what I was thinking.
It was NOT easy to recover from my feelings then and most likely what I'm suffering now is some of the fallout from that period. My H is a very withdrawn guy with some issues of his own that are only recently coming to light and I was ashamed to admit to him how done I had felt, or to do much to include him in my recovery. Truly, I think I didn't even realize how incomplete my recovery was until I learned about his A.
What you've been describing sounds a lot like you and your W have been speaking foreign languages to one another for many years, and eventually gave up even trying. No person can be as selfish and demanding and manipulative as you've described your W. I've met lots of people who were truly difficult, and even they had redeeming qualities that kept them from being as dark as you've written your W.
I like the exercise you were challenged to do above. I hope you'll share it here. Read Five Love Languages and see if anything resonates. Trust that love CAN be a choice before you can feel it. Emotions are verbs -- action words.
What you've been describing sounds a lot like you and your W have been speaking foreign languages to one another for many years, and eventually gave up even trying. No person can be as selfish and demanding and manipulative as you've described your W. I've met lots of people who were truly difficult, and even they had redeeming qualities that kept them from being as dark as you've written your W.
She isn't maybell,
As I said I started off rough and angry. I'm slowing down to think. I can only claim my responsibilities in the m failing. And I have many.
But you are right or at least it's a line to explore that we spoke different languages.
Thank you
Claire,
I understand now what you are saying. Maybe I'm not choosing to love her anymore. Ok let's scratch the maybe since I am not owning my actions. I have not chosen to love her and I am finding it difficult to change that
The similarities between our m's are there. How'd you deal. Where are you now?
Claire,
I understand now what you are saying. Maybe I'm not choosing to love her anymore. Ok let's scratch the maybe since I am not owning my actions. I have not chosen to love her and I am finding it difficult to change that
I feel like this is what DBing is all about... one person CAN change the dynamic. If I had read about these strategies, or learned some tools (like 5LL), before my H decided to walk out on me, he and I might have been in a very different place now.
You can't force your W to change or own her part. But you can change YOU. And in changing YOU, you can change everything.
I would give a lot for my H to be able to hear the advice and insight you are getting here. (I made the mistake of trying to tell him these things myself, before I read DR.) But it is what it is.
Thanks Claire.
I'm here a lot today do to an injury so I'm lounging and recovering. It's incredible how mad I have been.
As I move forward through here I will work hard at owning my actions ( already been slapped a few times).
I am the one leaving. And in my gut is a huge hole. But I can't find a sense of balance to start loving her again. Not now.
Thanks everyone. I think I got what I needed.
Keep posting. Even if you don't reconcile I think you've got people interested in hearing how your story unfolds.
Spent the day reviewing my last 20 years. Crap that's hard. It's hard to stop thinking about all the pain the other person caused, stepping back and saying "this is not the problem" the problem that I can address is me and boy oh boy did I bring a lot of problems.
I valued my w's opinion of me so much. More then I valued my own. The last trigger was reading words she had written about me over 19 months. Reading that she saw me as weak. It made me angry. I spoke to a friend last night about it. Those words had sent me to a very dark place on Friday night. He said this might hurt a bit but I need to know, " are you hurt because she wrote those words or are you hurt because you think they may be true?" It was a slap across my face. I didn't know or have an answer. Still don't
It's incredibly stupid the things I have hung on to. The things I placed value on during my m. The things I regarded as important. I didn't communicate well with w during our marriage. I rarely voiced my needs but instead stuffed everything into my little internal box, let it fester and build. I thought I was being the " bigger person" for letting things slide. Idiot.
But on the other side there were things I voiced as important to me. She ignored them.
How do we correct this in ourselves??? I understand I need to take responsibility for what I didn't say but how do I take responsibility for the things I did say but were never heard?
So at the risk of being smacked by the long term bd'ers I will give a couple of examples. How should I have addressed them .....thoughts,
My w was a sahm. But our home was always a huge mess. More like a frat house then a home. This wasn't just the case while kids were in diapers but the norm even to today. I told her repeatedly that coming home to a clean house made me feel good. It was important to me. Her response was always "you want it clean then clean it. I'm not that type of person." It felt to me that she didn't value my efforts to provide her and the kids with a nice home and nice things. I felt like I was taken for granted
When my w started working part jobs I asked that she have her pay deposited into our joint account. My pay had always been deposited into the joint account and she was free to use it as she felt needed. I never gave her x amount of money. My mother had told me once that she hated asking my father for money. It made her feel like she wasn't a valued part of the marriage. Or an equal part. I placed as much value on my w for being a sahw as I did myself as the income winner. To that end I never wanted her to ask me for money. I felt the money wasn't mine but ours. So when she started working as the kids were older I asked that she put her pay in the account with mine. She never did, never would tell me how much she made our where her money went. Still doesn't today.
And finally she would withdraw support. If we disagreed on a decision she would argue with me. Most times until I simply gave in but when I was firm on my position she would end the argument the same way " fine do it your way but don't expect me to help you when it fails!"
Help me out her. Am I being a childish little man for feeling hurt by these actions. Was I wrong to make the requests? How do I take ownership?
I have a hunch that you know the answer to the above questions. I can tell you that I did the same as you CW. I did not communicate my needs well instead i kept quiet became resentful and later got angry. They are very passive/aggressive behaviors. Those behaviors will destroy a marriage.
If you wanted the house clean they way you thought it should have been clean...How come you didnt clean it yourself? May be in the eyes of your W the house was clean? There are always different perceptions to things.
Keep posting u doing good
Lol. Actually I did clean it myself. Many many times. And yes there are different perceptions. But I don't think that was really the question I was asking. During our m my w made many many request of me. Things she wanted or need. If she said "this is important to me" I pretty much did what she asked. If it was important to her then it was important to me. I don't think she would argue that if she was here. How did a fail in communicating that something was important to me? Even when I presented in black and white
As a side note I'm curious why everyone is sensitive about the stay at home parent. It's a job. Not an easy one. I know that. I value it. It's part of the m. In our case 50% since we were a single income family. I'm not sure why having and expectation of that job is wrong. My w certainly had an expectation of me as the income provider. She said as much. Was I wrong to also have an expectation of her? I have a job that unfortunately I don't like but it pays very well. It's also straight juice( that's commission for those who don't know). There is a certain amount of pressure in a commissioned job and knowing that you are the single income for your family. I've done it for 17 years because I wanted my w and kids to have the best I could provide. She was very capable of keeping a better house. But as she told me many times she just didn't want to, it wasn't important to her. I think that hurt me a lot. Not so much the house but knowing that something that was important to me wasn't worth the effort to her.
Rick
So here are my answers and let me know your thoughts.
1-yup I'll take the childish little man - acknowledged examined and owned
2- I don't think I was wrong in asking
3- I have no idea how to own number two
I've been using a lot of examples in my post. Most of the response have been " my aren't you a petty little man". I'm truly not using them to detract from my w. But I don't know how else to convey why my feelings are there. Should I stop using examples? How do I proceed in a forum like this. I guess I'm not the norm in here as I am the one leaving. Is it wrong to want to feel valued in an m?? Is it wrong to ask things of your partner you spouse? Clearly most of the responses seem to indicate I'm the one who should change. Why is change only expected on one side? Thoughts please!!!
The point is that you only have control over you. You have no control over your wife. Given that, we can only give you input on how YOU can change.
Have you read DR? If so, reread it. There are answers to your questions. And the 5LL might help too. My H used to tell me about all the things he did to show me he loved me. And yet I felt unloved. We were both right. .. just speaking different languages.
Ok hope. I'm good with that. I accept. So I work on me. But how does that save a marriage? If only one person is working on themselves? When does the work become "us".
If she doesn't want to work on the M, nothing you say will change that. But if you show her, through genuine change and actions that you are capable of change...and if you become the spouse that only a fool would leave... then she might decide that she wants to work on the M. And only then can you talk about "us" work.
Right now you have a few options:
1) give up on this M. Get a D. (Btw.. your relationship issues will resurface in your next relationship unless you do the work on yourself.)
2) work on yourself, stay committed to this R. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. But the priority is for you to work on becoming the best YOU that you can. That way, even if this M doesn't work out, you will be in a better place for your next R.
Does any of this make sense yet?
Ok enough bs
Here we go
I can walk into the most dire of situations and take control. As an emt I have done that from everything from drug beating car accidents cardiac arrest and deliverying a baby. No issue here. As long as it doesn't involve me I'm solid strong and capable.
But the minute it's about me. My wants my choices. I revert to the child who only wants to please everyone and be liked. At 46 I am still the child I was taught to be. It ended my marriage. It built up bitterness and self loathing. And it made me feel weak.
So now I'm here. A starting point. I have an ic. I have friends who I've said this to and who are working to support my changes. I am on step one.
Clair,
It makes perfect sense. Thanks
Great to hear! Do you think you could put out into the world what you wish to receive in return? Do you think you could put out towards your W what you wish to receive in return? and not resent her if she doesn't change right away? Would that make YOU feel better about yourself and your life?
Do we act a certain way because we expect something in return, and then get mad if we don't get what we expect in return? Or do we act a certain way because that's the kind of person we want to be?
Ic work has been exactly that. Looooooooong way to go lol. Expectations cause disappointment. I am working on me. I am working on not having expectations but to give freely. Most days have been much better. Others not so good.
I made a big mistake during my m. I allowed w to validate me. To define me instead of defining myself. When she stopped validating who I was for me. I didn't know how to move forward. Does that make sense to anyone.
Recently I did something I have deep regret about. I invaded her privacy and read her words. I saw a truth about how she saw me and was destroyed by it. In that way she was right. I am weak
So I continue my ic work. I look in the mirror and say you have worth. And I move forward. I'm trying to leave that pouty little boy behind. It ain't easy people. It ain't easy
No gabby,
I've seen it referenced but don't know what it is or where to find it
CW, if you read DR you will find 180s and a lot more detail on the information you're being offered here.
If it wasn't worth the effort to your W to keep the house clean to your standards (as an example of one of your unmet needs), then perhaps you want to consider if you asked for your needs to be met in a way that was demotivating to her? Or if she felt like her needs weren't met (although you took actions hoping to make her happy, they weren't perhaps the ones she needed) and therefore chose to not meet yours because it would have required, in her view, unequal effort relative to what she thought you were putting into the marriage? Just a guess. But most people who feel loved work to meet their partner's needs.
I don't think anyone here thinks your needs are unimportant. But how you presented yourself in your earliest posts was strongly antagonistic. You sounded demanding, impossible to please, and, if you'll forgive me, very unlikeable. It was pointed out to you early on that most of the people on this forum are hurting spouses who would do a LOT to recover our marriages and to understand how to build a great relationship with our spouses and your early posts were venom-filled diatribes against what looked like a LBS. It wasn't a great way to introduce yourself and certainly colors a lot of the feedback you've received. (People here call strong responses "2x4's" -- as in, a whack upside the head with a 2x4) Your more recent posts are a lot more measured which is why you're getting better feedback now. But if your earlier posts are what it was like to live with you... That might be something for you to consider from your wife's point of view.
Sure it must hurt to think your wife thinks you're weak. From your perspective you have a high-pressure job you don't like, and you've sacrificed a lot for what you perceive as the well-being of your family. What would it have been like to have had a truly open and honest series of conversations with your wife about both your needs, about bringing them all into balance, about goals for the future that could be achieved without sacrificing the quality of the present? But you don't seem to have done that. Instead you buckled to what you thought your wife wanted, and which seems from here to have been kind of a consolation prize for her. Speaking for myself, I'd MUCH rather have a close and loving marriage than a distant husband with a good income. There are a number of threads on this forum that talk about the importance of strong boundaries and how they build respect from the other person, even when they seem to be causing frustration *in the short term.* Those posts are worth seeking out. (you can do a search in the bar above)
What you're saying you've learned in IC about letting your wife validate you is, I'm pretty sure, totally familiar to everyone here. It's why the divorce-busting mantra is DETACH. It's the short version of what you're trying to achieve through IC. We all try, succeed some, fail some, and keep trying again. The journey, not the destination matters.
Yes, you have worth. YOU HAVE WORTH. It can be hard to remember it, but you do. WE ALL DO. Including your wife, no matter how angry you are with her. Try as you can to drop the anger towards her, towards yourself, and see what it feels like to live that way. You will be surprised at how free it feels.
Read Divorce Remedy and Five Love Languages. Do the 10 things exercise Rick(?) recommended a couple of days ago. See what you discover, and keep posting here. You seem to be getting someplace.
In my first post to you I said believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
And since I know that you have read her thread you will find that it said exactly the same thing.
So what that means is that if you wish to communicate with her it must not be with words but with ACTIONS.
The same will go for her.
So you have learned here that we will not tolerate disrespect and you have changed your tone.
Good job.
Now you need to back that up with actions.
I hope that makes sense.
This will not be a short journey.
There will be no easy buttons.
No shortcuts.
It requires work, but not like digging a ditch.
Internal work.
You will have setbacks.
You cant change the past,
but you can control your actions now and in the future.
I hope you are really in this and this is a point forward for you.
Keep moving forward.
No gabby,
I've seen it referenced but don't know what it is or where to find it
Try reading this thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1386797#Post1386797
CW,
I hope you will continue to post here throughout your journey.
My husband has filed for divorce, and although he never voiced complaints during our 22 year marriage, after he filed he screamed at me: "I've given you EVERYTHING!!!!"
I never understood this until today, reading your posts and all the great replies.
He too is one who stuffs his feelings, wants to please, feels that he has given so much... and he has. Absolutely. He paid for my college loans, my braces, my fancy laptop; he did this happily and I *thought* I showed my appreciation by being thankful and happy.
Unfortunately, the one thing he was unable to give was his emotional side. He had trouble voicing his opinions and resorted to passive-aggressive tactics.
I didn't want to "have my own way". I wanted a strong man who could, when necessary, take charge.
Like your wife, I describe myself as a "strong woman". Not domineering or overbearing, but resilient and with a backbone.
I felt sometimes he wouldn't offer his side if it meant we might disagree, he would avoid conflict at all costs.
Funny thing is, we BOTH wanted the same things, but we disagreed on how to get there.
But I see now how resentment built up on his side.
But it also built up on mine---AND I IGNORED IT.
You see, while he was placing high value on himself as an excellent provider, my needs were not being met.
I never cared about money (tho you can bet I care about it now since he is dumping me...). What I WANTED was a partner I could connect with, spend time with, make love with.
What HE wanted was for me to SHOW him, through my actions, that I was "working as hard as he was."
No sex for almost two years prior to his affair.
Want to know why?
Just like other posters said:
I did not feel connected.
I did not feel loved in the way I needed to feel.
I did not feel valued as a whole woman.
I felt I was more "useful" than anything.
(Now granted, there were other issues at play, but you can read my thread for those.)
I finally said that I was always there for him physically, but that he'd have to actually put in some effort. He never did. Whether it was because he felt outside of his comfort zone, too much porn, too much resentment, or feeling like I was rejecting him is anybody's guess. But if I had to guess I'll say: All of the above.
The point here is, he felt that working hard, being "nice" and doing things around the house meant that was enough to give.
It wasn't.
I felt neglected, depressed, and lonelier when he was here than I feel now that he's gone.
When he had his affair, he felt entitled. He was angry.
He felt I didn't appreciate him.
Yet I felt unappreciated as well and I can see now where I started to focus on myself and my own happiness years ago.
Granted, I never cheated or did anything that was against my ethics, but I no longer made HIM my focus.
At first the more I tried to connect---"Let's TALK about US!" "I am SO UNHAPPY!" "WHY won't you spend time with me/do fun stuff with me/laugh with me/hold me/make love to me like a tender lover (Instead of a "Porn Star" Sorry, Eric! ;0 )/
tell me how you feel/what you want/what keeps you up at night/what you dream of..."
Well, needless to say, this approach did not exactly draw him to me.
Long before he cheated or filed for divorce, this approach was shut down with blaming and changing the subject.
And, as he wanted. I dropped it.
I just didn't understand then.
He couldn't talk about those things. It made him REALLY uncomfortable.
(Multiply that times a million and you have an idea of where we are now.)
Call it his childhood issues, whatever. The point was we loved each other but didn't know how to communicate that well to each other.
I guess we did to some degree since we lasted this long, but when things get stressful that's when it starts to fall apart.
For myself, my resentment took on a physical aspect. I developed Fibromyalgia and after a severe back injury was in chronic pain. I think I also was depressed.
So was I a great housekeeper?
Nope.
Was I a sex kitten eagerly awaiting his arrival in a French Maid outfit with fresh baguettes and home-made goat cheese?
Not on your life.
In fact, looking back I can see where I started to dread his coming home.
No wonder the man cheated.
So what I'm saying is: Listen to what the others are saying.
You still love your wife! You adore your kids! You value your role as a good provider.
And you are doing the brave thing by facing up to your weaknesses and trying to be a better man.
There are two sides to every story and I'll bet your wife's story is a lot like mine.
I'll bet she loves you too, warts and all. Or she wouldn't have stayed with you all these years.
Maybe look back and see if she was giving you clues to her discontent over the years. If so, how did you handle them?
I am new here myself, but your thread was such an eye-opener for me.
Whatever happens with your M, you have made a difference in mine.
I am looking forward to reading and learning more.
I wanted to add... you ask why SAH parents are treated as a special thing. I won't answer for anyone else, but from my own perspective, staying home isn't *just* a job like any other.
It is an act of trust in the other spouse, making ourselves financially vulnerable on faith that we are working together to build a specific kind of life.
It isn't a job you can just quit when the working conditions are no longer to your liking. It doesn't have limited hours like any other form of employment. It requires a kind of selflessness to perform the work at hand, especially when the kids are young -- you're doing work FOR OTHERS all the time, generally for little more than appreciation which is usually pretty thin on the ground.
SAH parents are often criticized by the people for whom they perform these selfless tasks and given little to no appreciation. No job stays done for more than a few hours at a time. There is an expertise required to do it well that is generally devalued in the outside world. Just think how often you see articles telling parents all the ways we're messing up our kids. Do you see a widespread genre of literature telling salespeople or accountants how many different ways they screw up at work?
Working parents typically say "What's the big deal? I do everything they do AND I have a job." But working parents are able to get some needs met (validation, compensation, more general respect and periodic reviews, a sense of identity or community related to the workplace) outside the home, while SAH parents by definition will have to do without seeing those needs met, unless they have very perceptive and compassionate partners.
There are perks, but it's not necessarily for the faint of heart.
Nice post Maybell. I think you expressed that well.
Maybell said: "It is an act of trust in the other spouse, making ourselves financially vulnerable on faith that we are working together to build a specific kind of life."
Exactly.
Being vulnerable to someone who isn't exactly putting us first or earning our trust is being stuck between a rock and hard place. I'm not saying you didn't consider her needs, only that she might not have FELT that's what you were doing.
Cadet,
I was angry
For that I apologies. I am moving forward. I will read the suggested links.
I won't lie. I still have anger. I'm sorry about that.
My faith and trust is broken right now. Bug I will detach from her words. I will focus on myself and my corrections and my change, wait scratch that. I mean growth.
You're right I cannot change the past. I can accept my part. And I do.
Maybell,
Sorry I expressed myself incorrectly. The at home spouse is very much a job of great difficulty and not for the faint of heart. I agree completely. I think I was more indicating the the work part not the emotional part the trust part and the sacrifice part, was not any more demanding then other jobs. In fact the actual work becomes easier as the children age. The sacrifice emotionally and in other areas is huge. It's why I never considered my income as mine. I always viewed it as ours. Does that make more sense?
Let me reflect a bit goatgal
It's hard to say if I considered her needs. I never controlled the finances or "told" her how she should be a sahm. I did request that the house be kept cleaner and maybe that was wrong of me. I'm not sure. As the children aged and started school I supported her decisions to work part time and return to school.
But I don't think this is what you mean. Can you elaborate. I'm a little dense sometimes.
Thanks
Cw--I'm dense too!!!!
My H never "told" me what to do either. But he didn't always offer his opinion readily. I ended up making a lot of decisions because he was unable/unwilling for whatever reason. I am thinking about whether or not I created an atmosphere where he felt he couldn't voice his opinion safely.
(I'll get back to you on that.
)
Of course your situation is your own and only you can speak to that.
But I ended up a stay-at-home farm wife (no kids, but lots of animals and it was a full-time job.) I was alone all the time, only the animals for company, and his job was stressful with a long commute.
I think he started to see me as having it "easy" because I got to stay home and did the things he enjoyed and would do for fun, while he had the stress of his job.
When I was gone and he had to do it alone, it was clear that it was not a walk in the park for me. I did the best I could, but then I developed some health issues which I now believe were related to stress between us that I didn't understand at the time.
Over time I became less and less able to do things around the house in the way he might have liked, or even what could be reasonably expected.
I think I was depressed, and frankly, doing loads of laundry, shoveling manure, and cleaning the chicken coop all alone, day after day, with no one to talk to was getting to me.
I think it would have been a nice life, but for one thing. When he came home, he just didn't want to talk or connect with me at all. No dinner together, just checking in with him seemed like he was REALLY putting up with the ten minute ordeal. When we were together, it was like he was only partly there, anxious to move on to the next thing. Being with me was not enjoyable for him, and it showed. I see that now in hindsight.
On the weekends, when we did have time, he never made me a priority. He stopped taking me out years ago, never came to my last three gallery openings, last few music gigs... always with some excuse.
It took visiting an old college friend (NOT BOYFRIEND!!!) who treated me like a queen when he took me out to dinner, that reminded me of all the things my H had stopped doing completely.
Like you, my H was very "supportive". But that support was from a distance. He wasn't really engaged in that he provided for me very well, "gave" me everything I needed, and plenty that I wanted. He just wasn't comfortable giving of HIMSELF.
Does that make sense?
Again, you and my H have some similarities that I can see, but you're two different people and I don't know you.
But HE is hell-bent on divorcing ME because he has "fallen out of love" and is "not happy". He feels he has given me everything and I am not grateful enough. Or something like that.
My feeling is that his happiness has very little to do with me being an ungrateful wife who doesn't appreciate him.
I have always loved him. If not I would not be on this board. But I think I started to tune out and feel awful and just not care about making him happy anymore because he was so distant from me.
Being supportive of my efforts, allowing me my freedom to explore the world, financing my life--all that was great.
But what would have made ME happy and made me WANT to do more of what he wanted, was if he had been vulnerable to me, spoken to me like a lover, been real and opened up with me.
To me, that's the whole point of a relationship.
The money, the house, the car... that's just "stuff".
I felt like I got the "stuff" but not the man.
Sorry if this seems rambling.. I'm just thinking out loud.
But if your wife is anything like me, you might want to give her a chance.
Maybe find out if there is something bothering her that can be repaired. You stated that you loved her.
Then fight for her.
But HE is hell-bent on divorcing ME because he has "fallen out of love" and is "not happy". He feels he has given me everything and I am not grateful enough. Or something like that.
First off. I know what he was thinking. We did feel that our w's weren't grateful enough. For myself I'm starting to rethink my position. Did I expect her to be grateful??? I think I did. And if I was thinking that she should be grateful then what kind of partnership was that???? I think maybe I put an expectation on her. Maybe( ugh there's that word again where you really don't want to take responsibility) I wanted her to be grateful. You know. The " look at me I'm giving you a wonderful life now tell me I'm wonderful". That was me. I'm starting to think I should have said " what can I do for you?" And stopped right there. I read somewhere, don't ask me where please, that life is about service. Service to your spouse, children family friends and community. When I read it I thought " ya that sounds right. That makes me feel right" , but somewhere along my path I forgot. I became bitter.
Bitterness is a horrible feeling. It eats you slowly from the inside. I had forgotten during my m that giving freely without expectation us it's own reward. I used to love doing things for my w. She is a remarkable woman. I had such pride when she went back to school. And it gave me a feeling of deep satisfaction to know that I could help her achieve that. But I really lost my way. Maybe the bitterness stems a little from the fact that she followed her dreams and achieved them ( 4.0 student and she excels at what she does). I didn't pursue anything. I locked myself inside a job I hate. Convinced myself that I was making the ultimate sacrifice because it provided a good life for my family. And all the while I built a selfish envy towards w.
I became bitter resentful and mad. I did this. Not her. You h was wrong. I know this from personal experience. Don't hold onto his anger. You're allowed to let that go. You owe yourself that .
I see the a word pop up a lot. And I'm thinking some of you are thinking I might have gone that path. For the record. No. Never. I have several female friends and yes I turned to them for validation because they engaged me and sought my opinion
In one way I guess this is an A. An emotional one. I'm not sure how this forum views the A. If physical and emotional are on equal footing then I would say then yes I was guilty.
Do I offer an explanation? Or is it enough to own my part.
But most people who feel loved work to meet their partner's needs.
That was a biggie. Maybe we weren't speaking the same language!!!
This is a pretty amazing thread.
CW I'm pretty sure there is a certain defensiveness on my part in the SAHM post. But I think some of it rang true for you and it seems to have rung true for others too and it definitely made me feel better to write it so maybe it wasn't the worst thing in the world.
Goatgal really took what I was getting at and ran with it. And I see similarities between your two situations and mine and that is enormously helpful.
I've tried to say before, and I hope you believe it, only you know what your actual situation is, I'm just responding to what I read, and how it strikes me from my own situation.
All good maybell. I'm a pretty crappy writer so a lot gets lost in my words. Face to face......refrigerators to Eskimos. Lol
Wow.
Cw... what a day you have had!
(And me too! The scales are falling from our eyes...)
You sound SO much like my husband. All that "being proud of her" stuff.
All that talk about "service". Right on!
I am really impressed with how you're thinking things through from a different perspective.
I am new to this forum so I'm far from experienced.
But I am a woman. And a woman who, although she loved her husband and he loved her, were unable to fulfill each other's needs because we weren't speaking the same language.
What we women need is that emotional connection---EVERYTHING FLOWS FROM THAT.
That's why the "nice guys" fall by the wayside in favor of the sleaze balls who can "fake" great intimacy. Woman swoon under it.
(Granted, when we swoon we are under the impression that it's real. And boy are we ticked when we find out we've been had! So it's got to be REAL.)
It's most of what we need from a man.
Somebody on here said if you can do this, she will be under your spell... (paraphrasing). That is TRUE, especially if she already loves you!
And she married YOU, right?
Just like even though you're frustrated right now, deep down you cared enough to have come here for---something. Even if you didn't know what it was. And look what you got!!!
Those feelings are just feelings.
They are driven by your THOUGHTS and PERCEPTIONS.
If your thoughts and perceptions of the situation are inaccurate, then your FEELINGS about that situation will be wrong as well.
Sometimes all we need is accurate information to assess what's really going on.
Feelings are like weather. (Or the stock market).
Wait around awhile and they'll change.
PS: An emotional affair is in many ways as devastating, or even more devastating than a purely physical one. Any type of outside relationship that creates distance between spouses, where intimate information is shared that belongs between husband and wife, is VERY HURTFUL and DEFINITELY counts as "cheating". You will see it referred to here as PA (Physical Affair) and EA (Emotional Affair). Plenty of marriages blow up over EAs too. Because they are a betrayal of the vows you made with your spouse. Period.
And people who have trouble with intimacy tend to throw up barriers to getting really close to their loved ones. An EA is a great example of this.
Ok. Lots of reflection
I've been told in here that love is a choice. ( still kicking that one around in my heart ). This may be true. But to me it kinda sounds like it reduces the word and concept. I thought love was an unstoppable force that the conscious mind couldn't withstand. A driving emotion. I'm not sure I want it to be simply a choice. When I first met w I know for a fact that it wasn't some logical choice I made. It was a BAM I love this woman. I wanted her time her attention her touch her voice her smile. I didn't look across the room and think "she's nice I think I'll love her". So the concept of chosing love bothers me and I'd like to explore why.
I understand the concept of chosing to embrace the feeling but not chosing to have the feeling.
PS: An emotional affair is in many ways as devastating, or even more devastating than a purely physical one. Any type of outside relationship that creates distance between spouses, where intimate information is shared that belongs between husband and wife, is VERY HURTFUL and DEFINITELY counts as "cheating". You will see it referred to here as PA (Physical Affair) and EA (Emotional Affair). Plenty of marriages blow up over EAs too. Because they are a betrayal of the vows you made with your spouse. Period.
( I haven't figured out how to put those nice little boxes up with a snippet from a previous thread so I just keep cutting and pasting. )
Ok an EA is the same transgression as a PA. I'll accept. During the M I never saw it that way. I wasn't getting any emotional support from W( and yes I probably wasn't giving it either but assigning blame is as valid now as the chicken and the egg argument. She did this I did that or was it really I did that she did this so I did that. Mind boggling). We had such a wonderful relationship on so many levels that the lack of communication in the important areas seemed to go unnoticed. We had a good marriage with unsaid issues. Looking back I think it would have been healthier for both of us to have some big huge explosion. That way we both could have said " oh look a problem. Let's fix that". My W had written that she knew about my EA. And how it hurt her and why didn't I get that part from her. For my part I didn't know I was having an EA ( I hope someone in here understands that ). For me it was a co worker who was going through hard times , D and children troubles. She valued my input and we talked often. If felt so good to have someone ask my opinion. w never asked my opinion. Right from the beginning. That's not a shot. It's a truth. So in the very typical male mind I was flattered to have a woman seek me out and ask for help. And stupidly I never associated it with an A. " because we weren't physical". But reflection has me asking myself a question and already knowing the answer. " if I thought it was fine why did I keep it from W?" Arrrg cause somewhere in my gut I knew it wasn't fine!
I'm starting to really hate this self examination ;-)
Is it ok to post actual events or things and not just emotional states cause I do have some questions and I just want feed back. I'm not trying to bash but I want input. Is that ok?
I haven't figured out how to put those nice little boxes up with a snippet from a previous thread so I just keep cutting and pasting.
How to quote
Simplest method to quote is to use the quote button at the bottom.
Remove text that you dont want
Next method is to copy what you want to quote and use the fifth button from the right in REPLY mode,
insert text between brackets.
Last and hardest method is to type
I have left out the trailing bracket so you can see what to type.
[quote=Cw-cw]How to quote[/quote
Use the PREVIEW POST button before you hit submit so you can see what your post will look like.
Hope that helps
I'll post anyways and let the beatings begin. I'm talking to you cadet :-)
When we finally started talking about problems at the beginning of S W said she stopped the physical because she didn't feel loved. And she need to feel the emotional to give the physical. I didn't understand exactly because I can have one or the other or both.
She said I didn't show her I cared. What does that mean? Help. I'm going to give a list and I want to know is this not showing or am I just getting it all wrong.
I loved W very much and there are thing a did from the very beginning right up to S that I did without thought but because it always felt right.
D bring her coffee in bed and leave on the nightstand because I often left for work before she was up,
I opened doors all doors any doors she always walked through fist
In winter I set her car up for winter driving dusted off in the morning for her
Did the dishes and cleaned the kitchen at night before going to bed because I knew she was tired from a day with the kids, there were back rubs, supporting her interests by volunteering to help at events, I held her had , complimented her, brought flowers, filled her wine glass,agonized over her Christmas gifts ( except once when I included a salad spinner in the foray. Became a bit of a joke. Let's say it was an epic fail) brought her blankets when she was cold unloaded the car when she got back from shopping, took time out of my day to run an errand for her. When we went shopping and she try on something I thought looked amazing my only response was that looks fantastic let's get it. When she went back to school I sat for hours and hours and listened to topics from class. I re and reread her papers , I asked her opinion. When we traveled together I drove a lot but she always sat beside me. Even when other couples were traveling with us and the guy would go for the front seat I'd stop him and say sorry bud. Only on person sits up front and you ain't it( that one sounds weird. She drove a lot of the time too this isn't a male dominate thing this is me saying that my W will never sit behind me)
These things aren't fiction. I did them not because I wanted a pat on the back. I did them because I loved her. And I thought that they would show her exactly that. I do these thing because I love you. But when we spoke she said she didn't feel loved. In that I'm lost. Thoughts, insight, anything. Help
If small gestures are the halmark of love. Where did I fail?
Looking back I think it would have been healthier for both of us to have some big huge explosion. That way we both could have said " oh look a problem.
Let's fix that".
My W had written that she knew about my EA.
And how it hurt her and why didn't I get that part from her. For my part I didn't know I was having an EA ( I hope someone in here understands that ).
For me it was a co worker who was going through hard times , D and children troubles.
She valued my input and we talked often.
If felt so good to have someone ask my opinion. w never asked my opinion. Right from the beginning. That's not a shot.
It's a truth. So in the very typical male mind I was flattered to have a woman seek me out and ask for help. And stupidly I never associated it with an A. " because we weren't physical". But reflection has me asking myself a question and already knowing the answer. " if I thought it was fine why did I keep it from W?"
Arrrg cause somewhere in my gut I knew it wasn't fine!
I'm starting to really hate this self examination ;-)
Actually I see this as good first steps in where you need to go.
So if you now know that it wasnt fine - what can you DO about that?
And not just words but ACTIONS.
Cw, my h did most of the things your saying, but in a negative way.
He would bring coffee to me in bed and infer I was lazy if I stayed in bed. He shoulded all over me all of the time.
Poke prodded and corrected when I failed to met his standard, one that was so high he couldn't either. He blamed us for the failure not that his demands were to high. I felt set up to fail, hence I dropped the whole lot on the floor, but he was already having an ea, justified by I'm guessing not be pa untill I threw the whole lot out.
He hasn't looked back.
I'll post anyways and let the beatings begin. I'm talking to you cadet :-)
When we finally started talking about problems at the beginning of S W said she stopped the physical because she didn't feel loved. And she need to feel the emotional to give the physical. I didn't understand exactly because I can have one or the other or both.
She said I didn't show her I cared. What does that mean? Help. I'm going to give a list and I want to know is this not showing or am I just getting it all wrong.
I loved W very much and there are thing a did from the very beginning right up to S that I did without thought but because it always felt right.
D bring her coffee in bed and leave on the nightstand because I often left for work before she was up,
I opened doors all doors any doors she always walked through fist
In winter I set her car up for winter driving dusted off in the morning for her
Did the dishes and cleaned the kitchen at night before going to bed because I knew she was tired from a day with the kids, there were back rubs, supporting her interests by volunteering to help at events, I held her had , complimented her, brought flowers, filled her wine glass,agonized over her Christmas gifts ( except once when I included a salad spinner in the foray. Became a bit of a joke. Let's say it was an epic fail) brought her blankets when she was cold unloaded the car when she got back from shopping, took time out of my day to run an errand for her. When we went shopping and she try on something I thought looked amazing my only response was that looks fantastic let's get it. When she went back to school I sat for hours and hours and listened to topics from class. I re and reread her papers , I asked her opinion. When we traveled together I drove a lot but she always sat beside me. Even when other couples were traveling with us and the guy would go for the front seat I'd stop him and say sorry bud. Only on person sits up front and you ain't it( that one sounds weird. She drove a lot of the time too this isn't a male dominate thing this is me saying that my W will never sit behind me)
These things aren't fiction. I did them not because I wanted a pat on the back. I did them because I loved her. And I thought that they would show her exactly that. I do these thing because I love you. But when we spoke she said she didn't feel loved. In that I'm lost. Thoughts, insight, anything. Help
If small gestures are the halmark of love. Where did I fail?
Do you know what her love language is?
It sounds like yours is Acts of Service.
She probably does not hear that one.
So while all those things are nice she does not hear the love.
Make sense?
Actually I see this as good first steps in where you need to go.
So if you now know that it wasnt fine - what can you DO about that?
And not just words but ACTIONS.
Good question. It wasn't fine. But for me I was needed. I know that from her writings and her words and her actions that my W doesn't think I'm very intelligent. And to a certain extent she also had EA because she needed someone more on her academic level. So we both strayed for different reasons. How do I show someone that I can have value when you know that they think you're not very smart and mostly talk down to you? Some help please
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Yes it does. Thank you. And yes my ll is acts of service it is what I could give her. She wouldn't engage me on other levels from the very beginning. And she definitely wasn't touch.
Read the five love languages. You weren't speaking her language.
My H cooked me dinner every night, planned trips, did a number of things to show he loved me, told me how he did these things to show me he loved me...and yet I felt unloved. I thought I was crazy, or being manipulated. How could I feel so unloved (and un-liked) if my H was doing all these loving things for me? And he felt the same way, even though I thought I did loving things.
We were both right...and both totally wrong.
Ggrass,
My EA was short lived. W had gone into my phone saw the calls and confronted me I backed off after that although my co worker and I are still good friends.
I didn't do the things I did with any expectation. That I can say with a very clear mind. As cadet just pointed out my ll is touch and service ( btw are these bad things. Are they wrong). And I did them constantly and without any demand for acknowledgement. It's only through this forum that at least I can look back and think yes I did do something right
Lol Claire. We were definitely not speaking the same LL. Service and touch was never hers. I will read the 5 and maybe get some insight into what she needed.
There is no bad love language. Problems arise when you don't recognize them or communicate them in both directions. So if your LL for showing love is acts of service but your W's LL for receiving love is quality time then you may run into problems if you don't understand that about each other and bring it into balance.
Yikes. I don't know her LL yet but quality time really rings tru. I'm constantly late and very forgetful( I relied on W throughout our marriage to be my memory) so if it is quality time boy am I an epic failure!
Not an epic failure. These things can be corrected. Epic failure is when you choose not to correct.
My H relied on my brain ALL THE TIME too and it was one of my bigger complaints in the M. There was no space for me to live my life because I always felt like I was living his for him.
Somewhere there is a chapter/book/article about new love and enduring love that describes how all those crazy intense feelings you had for your wife in the early days are essentially hormonal, and once you choose to make her your life partner your task is to morph from hormone crazy to nurturing and sustaining a deeper love. That's what's meant by "love is a choice." That's why affairs can be so exhilarating too.
LL's. This will take some time to process
Not hearing each other not saying or doing what the other needed. No wonder this came to a crashing halt.
Over 20 years W told me she loved my sense of humor and no one could make her laugh like me. She told me this a thousand times. But she never once said I'm beautiful handsome or sexy. I've been told by women that the ability to laugh is huge in a relationship. I think I would have liked to be told I'm beautiful once in a while also
Somewhere there is a chapter/book/article about new love and enduring love that describes how all those crazy intense feelings you had for your wife in the early days are essentially hormonal, and once you choose to make her your life partner your task is to morph from hormone crazy to nurturing and sustaining a deeper love. That's what's meant by "love is a choice." That's why affairs can be so exhilarating too.
Now that I can wrap my mind around. That I can understand. Thank you for putting like that. Love is a choice when you look at it from this angle.
( for the record. I was always hormonal for my W. That part for me never went away. ;-)
Now that I can wrap my mind around. That I can understand. Thank you for putting like that. Love is a choice when you look at it from this angle.
( for the record. I was always hormonal for my W. That part for me never went away. ;-)
YUP men are sexual pursurers and emotional distancers
Women are emotional pursurers and sexual distancers.
Now you may need to start a new thread soon as DB wants to limit each thread to 100 posts and you are at 114.
You can then link and lock your threads.
I just got on there this morning and I cw, I see you have been doing A LOT of reflecting.
Just from skimming all of this, I find myself saying: "He's getting it! Yep! RIGHT!!!!"
It's wonderful to read that things are sinking in for you. That it takes two to tango.
(Sure you can dance to your own drummer, nothing wrong with that, but it's more fun when there's somebody there with you!)
It also sounds a LOT like my marriage.
Now, everyone here knows I'm new and certainly no DBing expert.
But what I really know a lot about is my marriage, how I felt, what happened.
I don't know all the "whys" yet, but I've got the history down.
And a lot of what you're saying is setting off bells.
My husband has said that he will not discuss any of his feelings or reasons with me.
That he is "done" and as far as he's concerned, I've gotten my "closure".
He is going to divorce me.
End of discussion.
And I keep thinking, "IF he had only talked to me, shared with me... and even now... tell me something that makes sense."
It's not happening.
But we never really fought.
Ergo, I assume everything was A-OK, right? WRONG!
We never fought because he wanted to avoid any strong emotion or conflict. anything, (I think) that would make him look deep inside instead of blaming me..
So, cw, there's my "short" response! (Hahahaha!
)
I'll read and post more later.
Good morning to you.
---GG
BTW--
I believe one of the many reasons this board is so effective is that it allows all of us to really bare our souls and spill it out, giving and taking criticism and support, without all the normal emotions and constraints that color our real-life interactions.
I was just thinking, cw, that if I'd met you on the street and we got to talking about your marriage, I never would have said 90% of what I did (being "nice", wanting to be "liked", not stepping over my social boundaries),
and you probably wouldn't have listened to a word I said, much less taken it to heart!
Goat Gal use the thread linked above this one is about to get locked.
Damn dude….I came to check back and you are up to 12 pages. Holy Chit.
I'm the one leaving because I couldn't stay.
Why couldn’t you stay?
More confusion from you – yet you are moving forward with a D. Why? Is it because…
I'm hollow. I just got to the end of my rope and lost faith.
I get that you feel hollow. Did you expect your W to always “fill” you up? Was your expectation of HER maybe a bit too much for HER?
Faith buddy…by the way is not based on anything that you see or hear – it is based on an internal belief that is not dependant on anything else or anyone else except YOU.
She thought I had affairs, I didn't.
Did you give her reasons to believe that you were having an affair? If you did, can you see why she may have been cold and distant. Affairs leave huge scars man…scars that take a LONG time to HEAL.
She said I was cold and distant, maybe, but truthfully I think that was the result of years of being pushed away.
Based on some of your earlier posts….i can see how she felt you were cold (personally I would have used the word condescending). You also say she pushed you away. Once again, that put all the blame on her. Com’on dude – own your chit here. She may have pushed BUT YOU COULD HAVE PULLED HER CLOSER.
But after marriage w stopped being w. She changed. And the changes weren't good. And the changes weren't easy to see, they were small and slow but they were there. And after 17 years she wasn't the person I feel in love with.
Once again…your posts are always about HER. Always about what she did wrong.
She didn't grow with me as a couple
Notice a patter…”she didn’t”
Dude, she did not have to GROW WITH YOU…. She needed to grow….you needed to grow….. You could have grown separately and then met in the middle. Lemme ask you a question…how often where you home? How many hours was she alone while you were working?
but the c agreed that I at least needed some individual work first. I have been in ic ever since.
Does this ^^^ tell you something? Have you thought for a second what the reason was that your IC said you needed individual work “first”.
Putting feelings into words is a bit of a struggle
Funny….you have a hard time putting feeling into words…yet it seems pretty easy and consistent for you to write about everything that your W did or didn’t do. Are you starting to see a pattern here?
I don't want to be a victim.
Then don’t! I think I have said this before….
A MAN OWNS HIS CHOICES
A BOY BLAMES OTHERS
I met my wife and fell in love within seconds. Not minutes not weeks not years seconds. She is /was( please for the love of god don't crucify me on this) first and foremost my very best friend. She was( I can say was now) my lover my support my confident. Everything.
YET you are willing to throw it away.
But as our marriage progressed it FELT TO ME that she new I couldn't voice my wants and simply took advantage of that and did as she pleased.
First you are making or made an assumption that she “knew”. Second……”and did as she pleased”… Can see how that sounds? Did you expect her to stay home, take care of the kids, have sex when you wanted and just nicey nicey wife? If you did, it is actually quite normal for men of our generation to feel that way – probable is…women have changed and the way/manner in which we taught to treat them was flawed. She is/was entitled to do whatever it is she wants to. You do not OWN her. Remember…..she was (your words)….my best friend.
But my worry my fear is that I have lost all the feelings and they will never come back.
Faulty relationship thinking - …first FEAR is just that FEAR. It is not a fact. In terms of the feeling never coming back – I am believer in never saying never. You nor I know what the future holds…unless your God. The feeling CAN come back BUT it take WORK. Just like any relationship. Us men seem to think….as long we pay the bills, don’t cheat, have sex every now and then….that it should be enough for our wives. It is NOT. Never was. The difference between now and then is that women are more comfortable talking and dealing with there needs. So yeah…the feeling can come back. IF YOU WANT THEM TOO.
Recent events which I am not ready to share have also caused me to loose my trust.
Now this quote kinda pissed me off. It is a veiled dig. What is she sleeping with someone else OR is that how YOU feel?
F*#k I swear these post aren't me. I can do better then this
Then do better.
Cadet
I'm going to disagree with love is a choice.
So what is LOVE to YOU? Define it. How do you receive it? What makes you feel loved? How do you give it?
Reading that she saw me as weak. It made me angry. I spoke to a friend last night about it. Those words had sent me to a very dark place on Friday night. He said this might hurt a bit but I need to know, " are you hurt because she wrote those words or are you hurt because you think they may be true?" It was a slap across my face. I didn't know or have an answer. Still don't
So you have seen what she has written about you and NOW you are angry. I wonder how she would feel if she saw what your wrote about HER.
But on the other side there were things I voiced as important to me. She ignored them.
How do we correct this in ourselves??? I understand I need to take responsibility for what I didn't say but how do I take responsibility for the things I did say but were never heard?
Give examples.
Here is one I will give you…. I love steak. Love a big rib eye on the grill. So….I ask my partner to cook steak at least one day a week. She doesn’t. I can….
a) Sit, stew and build resentment or
b) Go buy and cook my big steak myself. When she asks why I am doing it, I simple express that I wanted a steak.
Can you see the difference. You can and should not EXPECT that your W always does EVERYTHING YOU want.
My w was a sahm. But our home was always a huge mess. More like a frat house then a home. This wasn't just the case while kids were in diapers but the norm even to today. I told her repeatedly that coming home to a clean house made me feel good. It was important to me. Her response was always "you want it clean then clean it. I'm not that type of person." It felt to me that she didn't value my efforts to provide her and the kids with a nice home and nice things. I felt like I was taken for granted
First…when you are a SAHM…it is not easy. Kids running all over the damn place, the minute you clean they make a mess. I can relate that what you were looking forward to. Lord knows I am a very neat person (no comments Mach)….What I see though is you trying to CHANGE her instead of ACCEPTING her the way she was. So…could you have hired a cleaning lady to come in once a week? I remember having this very same complaint about my ex. And FTR, she is still a slob. What she did bring to the R though was different. She was a good mom, a good cook, she was “simple”…My point is that she had a lot of positives that I CHOOSE NOT TO LOOK AT – in part because I allowed resentment to build up. Can you see where you may have done this?
Clearly most of the responses seem to indicate I'm the one who should change. Why is change only expected on one side? Thoughts please!!!
Would you rather by HAPPY or RIGHT?
Think about it….for a second…on one hand you wanted to provide your W and kids with the best you could, you wanted to be home and spend time with the family – these are YOUR words.
Remember we talked about WORDS and ACTIONS
You now want a D, chances are the income now has to support two households…so you going to have to skimp on giving the kids the “best”….. did you spend as much time with the family OR where you emotionally unavailable and distant – in part because you were depressed?
My point, is that as DB teachs….”re-frame how you look at things”. Yes maybe the house was a mess, maybe you could have turn it around and offered to take W out on a romantic get-a-way or just a night out, then throw on some candles and have a little porn star sex. If you always look at the NEGATIVES….you will never see the POSITIVES.
Ok enough bs
Here we go
I can walk into the most dire of situations and take control. As an emt I have done that from everything from drug beating car accidents cardiac arrest and deliverying a baby. No issue here. As long as it doesn't involve me I'm solid strong and capable.
But the minute it's about me. My wants my choices. I revert to the child who only wants to please everyone and be liked. At 46 I am still the child I was taught to be. It ended my marriage. It built up bitterness and self loathing. And it made me feel weak.
So now I'm here. A starting point. I have an ic. I have friends who I've said this to and who are working to support my changes. I am on step one.
BEST FU*KING THINGS I HAVE SEEN YOU WRITE!
So how do we get to Step 2?
And it's not about changing who we are. It's about improving who we are. Being better for ourselves. Usually these changes improve all different relationships in our lives.
Bingo ^^^^ Hey CW….I asked an old poster this and according to him….it help clear up things.
Would you want to be married to YOU…the way you are today?
If NO – keep posting and working.
If YES – stop posting.
I invaded her privacy and read her words. I saw a truth about how she saw me and was destroyed by it. In that way she was right. I am weak
WOW that is pretty f*cked up. A little controlling if you ask me and creepy. What I find interesting is that you are invading her privacy yet you say you have no feeling for her. Personally, I think you still love her and really want this to work. Personally, I think you just may be using this forum to communicate to HER, which honestly is a little manipulative. I think CW….your actions needs to start matching YOUR WORDS.
When we finally started talking about problems at the beginning of S W said she stopped the physical because she didn't feel loved.
Write this down – she stopped “feeling loved”. This BTW is a hint for YOU – how does she want to “feel loved” – You’ll need this if you are to try and reconcile.
And she need to feel the emotional to give the physical. I didn't understand exactly because I can have one or the other or both.
Women are very different than men – emotionally connect with her and her body will be yours. The key is to understand how to “emotionally connect with her”.
CW…I asked earlier in this post…how you receive and give love. This is going to be key. I believe that YOU like many men (myself included)…give love the way we want to receive it. I have since learned just how selfish that is. We must learn our partners. Learn how they want to receive love and then disperse our love in a manner that they can receive it. For example: I love to be talked to, engaged emotionally…that is how I receive and “feel loved”. My fiancé “feels love” when we are physical. In many ways she is more of the traditional male in our R. My point though is how do YOU think your W receives love. Apparently it was not the physical – otherwise you would not have not had sex for 5 years.