Been Married 13 yrs. 9 yr old daughter, 5 yr old boy and girl twins. My wife says my actions are helpful not thoughtful. She wants me out because my presence makes her sad and drains her positive energy when she sees me. She tells me I am a good parent and positive there and with our friends. She says the last 7 years have been bad because of my communication skills and lack of sharing my feelings. 7 years ago I ended up getting sick, and it did damage to my job. I went through a bad period with jobs after that and finally got stabilized within the last 2 years. I bottled up everything and pushed her away, but I did not notice that it was a problem until 2.5 yrs ago. We have been to counselling but it is not working I am trying the 180 approach, but it is hard for me to distinguish what is thoughtful and what is helpful. I have always done housework, and other things around the home and with the kids. I want to do thoughtful things - actions are what she wants, but I am at a miss for actions. I am stunned and at a loss. I truly love her but she has no feelings for me other than the sadness and lack of fulfilment. Help in the thoughtfulness arena is what I need.
And0324
H -48 W-43
D -9
S-5
D-5
Welcome to the board
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
I have started doing things I have not done athletically in 7 years. I have been exercising in the past but only for 2-4 hours during the week. I am doing it more (6-8 hours) and it helps a lot with confidence - I can see the changes. Started to go out with the guys, occasionally. I have gotten back in touch with friends. I am detaching by not hovering, questioning, saying "I love you", etc. I only talk about the needs of the kids. It is hard at times but I smile and focus on being positive.
She says she wants me to share my emotions and talk to her about how I feel. I open up about work tell her what excites me, what disappoints me and how I am frustrated with some of my co-workers. She then responds that maybe it is me and walks away without letting me continue. She seems to be vindictive at times. I don't want to go over the same feelings of how I love her and miss her - that causes other problems. I have not said any of those things in awhile. She responds to that message with how and are you not lonely? She seems to be a WAW without the walk. We are supposed to talk and she stands there with pursed lips and crossed arms, while I am hands and arms relaxed and smiling while I talk. This seems to irritate her more. I will just do the 180, not sure if I need the LRT.
W wants me to move out, but still do the same routine with everything else in the household. We both work so I go in early and pick up the children at the end of the day. She wants me to leave after she gets home. This means I still do dinner, pick up the children 3-4 days a week, and then bath and bed time 2-3 days a week. We are already in separate rooms at opposite ends of the house. She just doesn't want me around when she is there. The only difference will be I am not sleeping at the house and 4 evenings and parts of the weekend she sees me. She says she does not want a legal separation.
I would not move out at all. This is where she needs to move out if she wants to be away from you. I wouldnt push that at all though. Just keep doing what youre doing. Be a great dad and dont get drawn into arguments with her.
W wants me to move out, but still do the same routine with everything else in the household. We both work so I go in early and pick up the children at the end of the day. She wants me to leave after she gets home. This means I still do dinner, pick up the children 3-4 days a week, and then bath and bed time 2-3 days a week. We are already in separate rooms at opposite ends of the house. She just doesn't want me around when she is there. The only difference will be I am not sleeping at the house and 4 evenings and parts of the weekend she sees me. She says she does not want a legal separation.
HELL NO!Your wife sounds like a bit of a princess. Seething with entitlement. I smell another guy, as she is seemingly trying to set you up to be the bad guy here. I would keep up this stuff, and nix all the touchy-feely, do-the-dishes stuff:
I have started doing things I have not done athletically in 7 years. I have been exercising in the past but only for 2-4 hours during the week. I am doing it more (6-8 hours) and it helps a lot with confidence - I can see the changes. Started to go out with the guys, occasionally. I have gotten back in touch with friends. I am detaching by not hovering, questioning, saying "I love you", etc. I only talk about the needs of the kids. It is hard at times but I smile and focus on being positive.
She seems to be a WAW without the walk.
She has walked.....in heart/attitude.
W wants me to move out, but still do the same routine with everything else in the household. We both work so I go in early and pick up the children at the end of the day. She wants me to leave after she gets home. This means I still do dinner, pick up the children 3-4 days a week, and then bath and bed time 2-3 days a week.
That would be fatal to any hopeful attraction on her part. Unless you want to be the unappreciated and disrespected WIFE in this M, do not do what you are told by Miss High & Mighty.
The way to deal with this type of female is NOT by walking the fine line she has drawn. B/c it is all smoke & mirrors anyway. If you have been sharing your thoughts & feelings with her, then her problem is something entirely different. I would take a stab in the dark and start with lack of attraction. How's the sex life? I'm betting not too good, unless she is
very HD.
DO NOT MOVE OUT OF YOUR HOUSE OR THE MASTER BED ROOM.
IF YOU HAVE MOVE BACK IN ASAP!
This is the biggest mistake that can be made in a separation or divorce situation.
You can even google it.
Do not move out! They are right! It with limit your time with your kids, and it will not look good in custody hearings if you are looking for full or partial.
Cadet,
too late on separate bedrooms. Been in two bedrooms now for a year. And for intimacy, there has been none for over a year. She will not even let me kiss her, hug her or hold her hand. I have not tried any physical showing of love in months. I am weary of being bitten, so to speak, to many times.
Non-existent on the sex life for over a year. I stopped trying after being pushed away many times. I am physically fit and looking a lot better now (not as thin).
I recognise quite a few similarities with my own case here. I feel for you And0324. I hope you get on track with your life.
Starsky,
You are right. I found evidence of at the minimum an EA. I was cleaning(this is something I have done for along time-even before the blank hit the fan) and found a paper with some notes that stabbed like a knife. I have had a good idea she is having an EA but she has denied it twice. I have not waited for the cock's crow. he has requested things that piss me off. She seems to be waiting for him to be her knight in shining armour, though he talks to other women. She finds any reason right now to be angry with me. I am remaining positive and doing things that need to be done. I think she really does not like how the children interact with me. They are now asking me to snuggle at night. I think they subconsciously know. One has had nightmares that mommy has left daddy. It does hurt me when they say this. I can only validate the feeling and say daddy loves mommy. Not sure what else to do.
Can you tell us what was written?
MrBond
OM wants pictures. W is anxious to wear something to a show we are going to that OM will be at and OM is anxious to see her dressed this way. W waiting for OM to come to a decision and get her. OM is D w/ 2 K. OM and W work together. There are other things but these stick out.
I know the EA has been going on since January.
And have you read DB or DR?
Read DB and reading DR. Trying to implement. Rereading sections.
Now she suggested we each find a place to stay and we split staying at the house with the children with 4 days one week and 3 the next week. And to decide on 3 days that will be the same and one day that we alternate. Has anyone ever tried this arrangement. I am not sure what else to do in this sitch. Just my presence cause problems. She says I have made changes but nothing works for her. I may suggest renting an one bedroom apt that we share. and see what happens there. Advice, input pros, cons, I am tired and it is late.
If you are tired, then sleep on it. The advice which seems to be consistent here is do not move out. If she wants to, let her. But stay in the house with the kids. But maybe wait for someone else to chime in.
Best of luck
People smarter than me have already told you not to move out of the house.... so listen and don't move out of the house. Be strong and hold your ground. If she wants to find an apartment on her own that is her choice.
I tried the 4/3 day switch you mentioned for about 4-5 mos, until the vets on this board convinced me to stand up for what I wanted. I had been accommodating my WAW and she was comfortable cake eating. I moved back to the house full time in Feb, which resulted in temporary anger from W (as I expected). One of my biggest regrets is that I didn't take this stance from day 1. If W feels she needs space, make her be the one to find it.
I can tell you since moving back home, I feel so much better about myself, the example I'm setting for my kids and I get the feeling that it forced W out of her cake eating ways.
Did W threaten to take the kids and get a lawyer? How do you handle that? W will do that. I do not know how to prevent that from happening. I know she has no feelings for me other than contempt, anger and negativity.
I calmly told her that while she was in a relationship with OM, I didn't want her staying at the house. I couldn't legally kick her out, so made sure to word it in a way that conveyed my feelings towards her staying there. She did not threaten to take the kids or get a lawyer, but said she didn't think she could ever forgive me for what I had done. She still holds some anger towards it, but I've recently seen signs of her coming around.
My hope is that in the long run, she'll come to understand why I did it and respect me more for standing up for myself.
Why are you so afraid of her "threats" of getting a lawyer? Let me tell you, if you will start turning the tables on her, you may see an attitude adjustment! If the house is in your name, too, then what makes you believe you could be forced out?
What exactly is in this R for you? You are holding down a job and doing the housework, putting up with a disrespectful W, and doing without sex.
I'm thinking when she said you wen't fulfilling her emotionally, it was from a more self-centered position. If you discuss and share your feelings, show her attention, etc.........and she says you sap the positive energy, then maybe she sees it as you complaining and whining. She tells herself you are so negative all the time, and she wants happy, positive people around her to keep
her feeling better.
Instead of listening to
you, she may simply want you listening and sympathizing with her. IDK.
How much fun do you have as a couple? How much do you socialize with other couples?
Sometime back before she started turning you away, something was turning her off from you sexually. Did she suggest you move out of the bedroom, or were you the one who decided? Either way, it was not a good choice. It causes an emotional division and distance in the MR.
My suggestion is to start turning things around. Tell her, "I've thought hard about our situation, and frankly, this whole thing isn't working for me. Maybe you are on the right track. I mean, we both deserve to have someone special, right? So, maybe one of us
should leave. Okay......so, let me know when you have a place, and I'll help you pack your stuff."
Of course, that has to be face to face! Don't take a cowards way out and email, TM, or VM her. You need to practice saying it until you can pull it off confidently. Don't rush your sentences, and watch her face as it soaks in. Then brace yourself.
She's the one who wants out, so she needs to be the one who leaves. You and the kids can stay in the home. She will have to pay all her new expenses she'll have b/c you aren't paying her way any longer. You sure as heck won't be cleaning up behind her!
You may need to rehearse this in your mind until you can say it and not show emorion. It is important she doesn't see any fear in you. This has to be said face to face. Don't take the cowards way out and email, TM, or VM her. She would probably laugh at it. You make a believer out of her by being very confident. Say it slow enough to let it soak into her brain. Then turn and walk away.
If she threatens by using the kids, don't succumb to her pressure. She'll grab at anything to throw at you right then. Just act as if it doesn't scare you. Have your keys in hand and ready to go out for the evening. It gives her time to throw her little fit.
But listen, you need to get legal advice to know your rights about your kids, property, and finances. Protect, protect, protect! Prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.
(To be clear, the little speech above is not in the books, and I feel it would probably not be the advice you would hear from a DB coach.)
If she threatens by using the kids, don't succumb to her pressure.
Most likely ^^^ will happen. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that WAW is doing 'what's best for the kids.' Resist the urge to turn that into an argument or to defend your case.
[quote=sandi2
I'm thinking when she said you wen't fulfilling her emotionally, it was from a more self-centered position. If you discuss and share your feelings, show her attention, etc.........and she says you sap the positive energy, then maybe she sees it as you complaining and whining. She tells herself you are so negative all the time, and she wants happy, positive people around her to keep
her feeling better.
Instead of listening to
you, she may simply want you listening and sympathizing with her. IDK.
How much fun do you have as a couple? How much do you socialize with other couples?
Sometime back before she started turning you away, something was turning her off from you sexually.
[/quote] Sandi2,
Our problems started because she said I did not hear what she was saying. I would listen but did not validate(not her words, only what I have recently learned). I knew nothing of the concept at the time. I always tried the fixer approach or would minimize the issue. I also rejected a lot of her ideas. After 4 or 5 years of this, she put up a wall to protect herself. I realize I was not a good partner with lousy communication skills. Now, she does not want to share or communicate with me for fear of the same results. She said if I share my feelings with her that she maybe able to open up for me. I talk about work, things the children do, about the people I talk and associate with during the day - a majority of the subjects are positive, work can be frustrating at times, but who does not have bad days at work. I do not talk about the R at all.
We associate with a lot of couples. The thing is no one notices the issues we have in our M. Last night, again, someone came up to me and said how amazing our family was and how they are impressed with the children. It is really hard for me during those times. We have fun as a family.
We did date nights every two or three weeks up until about August of last year. We have not had a date night for 4 months. She does not want to and I do not bring up the issue.
She works outside of the home and it is a good job and pays well. We are both professionals. Paying her own way will not be an issue for her.
All issues stem from the fact that I do not communicate well with her. I turned her off sexually because I could not open up to her or be open to her ideas. I am working on this through self-help books and our MC. But, it maybe too little, too late. She says I was not like this at the beginning of our R and M. It all changed when I was sick for 6 months and the job issues that followed the next 3 years. I look back I was frustrated and angry held it all inside and did not talk about it. I did not hear her and was a "no man" to her ideas. I am more open now, but I slip occasionally when we discuss our R.
And0324, I'm in a similar boat. I did the same stuff.
Don't be too hard on yourself though. We all do what we can with what we know at the time. It may not have be the best approach: live and learn.
I'm chanting PMA, PMA as the days go by, trying to block out that negative thinking :-)
Thanks odsnt,
I have a PMA 95% of the time. My mantra lately has been " allow what is". I can only work and better myself. I know it must be working because I have had some people come up to me and say they like my outlook on projects and people. I just have not been able to be perfect with the W - I sometimes slip into the conditioned response/reaction or habit. She then picks it up right away. It brings to mind a saying one of my coaches use to use - "One oh, sh!t wipes out a thousand thatta boys"
My GAL actions:
I became a member of Meetup and joined some outdoor fitness groups. Already gone to a few activities.
Started a biking group at work by placing an ad on the work intranet bulletin board. This was easy and had a quick responses - amazing that a lot of people were looking to get out and bike.
The only thing I am having problems doing is getting out with friends (only 2 at this time) who have a degree of separation from my W - It is easier to detach if people are not commenting/asking about the family. Hoping to meet more people through activities that I can talk to and not have to talk about my W.
Just had another talk where W says I am setting the family up for failure because the kids want us both to come in and say goodnight.
W says that I am in denial about the relationship and my feelings.
W brings up the denial she says my family has with what went on growing up - I told W when dating her how my dad was mentally and physically abusive to us and my mom. I don't think there is denial but forgiveness from myself and siblings. The only denial is from my parents that it was bad.
W says she is sad and hurting all the time and how this is a great weight on her. W says that I must be feeling the same way. W asks how I can live like this, being unhappy all the time. I responded it must hurt for you. W says that the hurt and sadness is all she thinks about and it is affecting her work and happiness. W says I cannot give her what she needs and she gets it from friends. She wants me to write down what I think W needs from me.
Is this a set-up? Should I write down what her emotionally needs are? All I know are the basic needs support, love, listening (validation), comfort, compliments, etc. This request feels dangerous.
I really think she wants me to end this M. I will not be the bad guy and party to the destruction of the family. I still love her, must remember PMA and "allow what is"
Yes! Do not move out despite how hopeless it seems or how much she makes your life miserable. It's your home too and while there's problems in your marriage it took two people to get where you guys are now. Keep this in the back of your mind so you don't sink in self-pity. You appear sincere in your efforts and you are doing right by taking care of your kids. Her anger and mean attitude is motivated by the prospect of greener pastures but don't be discouraged! Do u want to be right or do u want to be married? Leave the OM issue on the back burner for now and cont. w/the 180 but in the most respectful and still loving (tough love) way.
Self-pity is the furthest thing from my mind. Part of me sees my W as a hurt, scared and confused little girl. I am not sure if this is the empathy she is looking for from me. Other times I see a woman who seems to be going through a loss of identity or MLC - Lost 35 lbs, new wardrobe(that happens when you drop a couple sizes), new body art without telling me or us going together, going out with friends partying, etc.
I realize I am only responsible for my happiness and the kids. I have no control over how the W feels. She may think she is pushing me away trying to make me decide on ending this M, but it will all come back to her. She needs to find her happiness and all decisions about our R are hers, she needs to own the decisions. I know where I stand in regards to our M. Our MC has said she has put up a defensive wall around herself in regards to me and does not see the changes in me. The MC says right now I'm in a damned if you do, damned if you don't sitch. So I just chug away and a majority of the time I feel good and confident. There are sometimes though I feel sad and the victim, but I allow those feelings to pass.
You are correct; she is a scared, hurt, and confused little girl--deep down. Right now she's trying to justify her pain with poor behavior. No woman in her right state of mind would dismantle her family. So yes, she's being selfish and immature and there's nothing you can do to change her mind. Just like a toddler throwing temper tantrum...they have to come out of it on their own. The question is...how much/long are you willing to take this on? I know it's hard to detach when you're heart is invested but for the moment try not to put all your heart into it. It's counterintuitive, I know. When you know you're about to lose something you're natural tendency is hang on tight--almost out of desperation. When you do this it sends a negative signal to your W. Rather than sending the message of "I want you" it sends a message of "I need you." Wanting is showing desire, interest...etc. Whereas needing shows obligation. Who wants to feel obligated to love?
Continue to work on yourself and don't let your confidence diminish nor her petty attitude tarnish it. Don't show weakness but rather show vulnerability--it's sexy. Detach but don't be cold and unloving. I recommend reading "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman. It will show you how to communicate love to her in a way that she will understand. Applying the principles might be difficult right now but at least you will be prepared.
In my sitch, my H is asking me to sign the separation papers and move out. The condo is in his name only but we have a new property being built which he intends to sell once it's complete. I'm a woman with two kids and currently unemployed since I have returned to school full time. Out of the blue he says he's done. Just like that my world was turned upside down. Of course WAS rarely ever give you the opportunity to make amends once you've realized where you went wrong. Sometimes, like for me it took him furnishing the papers before I snapped out of my funk. I did my best to apologize, appease, and all that crazy stuff. I've changed a lot and he noticed but he doesn't think it's genuine. Once a week I get pressured by him to sign the papers because he feels it is the only way he will feel whole again. It's a sly attempt to justify his leaving and running away from our problems. I've been faithful of course and I'm in great shape, smart, and funny but I have trust issues. He slap this in my face as often as he can to feel better about his lousy decision.
The sad truth, your wife is not in her right mind regardless of how happy, new, different she may seem. The fantasy of life with OM will eventually fade. Then reality will hit her in the face and give her a wake up call...slowly but surely. If you happen to still be around, lucky for her. If not...well sin has it's consequences. You may not be able to save your marriage but you will still be a better person for standing up for your beliefs.
I am on the other side of the 180. I am the one perusing a divorce. BUT I had to completely 180 to get where I am today.
History: I was so depressed and leaned on my H for nearly everything. He cheated on me and it destroyed me for years. I was this sad, pathetic nobody. I was dying a slow, bitter and horrible death.
What made me feel even worse is that I am from Boston and was in town for the 2013 Marathon. I should not take crap from anyone. And I should walk around like I own the place, everywhere I go. But here I was this waste of space on this planet. Making everyone around me miserable.
I went to therapist after therapist, and I finally found the 180 and found myself again! The 180 was the key to me being me.
Since March, 2014 I have followed it like a rabid dog.
I have NEVER been so happy. I love myself and my life now.
I have cultivated and re-cultivated new friends and old friends friends. They adore me and we have SO SO much fun! I went back to church and know that God and Jesus have my back, they love me too.
I was always frumpy with my appearance. I do have a great figure, but dressed like crap. Now I rock a dress and red lipstick every day. Even if it's not a work day, you bet I am ricking the heck out of a dress!
(I got them at the local thrift store Savers, and they are about $5.00/each.) I look and feel professional and I carry myself like I am someone important, because I am. Took me a VERY long time to find that out.
I got a job at my local YMCA, where my autistic son attends camp.
But most importantly I live in my own room in the house and I am cheerful all the time, I NEVER buy into arguments. NEVER! Because that's what he wants.
I have all the paperwork ready and only need to coordinate a time to serve my H.
But then.....
He started to ask me where I was going each time I went out.
Helped me with the laundry.
Called me on the phone.
He started to be HIM again!
How wonderful!
So I have put the divorce on hold for now.
I had to be the change in this relationship. I HAD to move forward for anything good to happen.
I had to put my hand up in front of his face about 1,000 times and say "I am 180'ing it. I am bulletproof, you can not bait me or hurt me anymore."
Please know that you MUST follow the 180 the best you can.
Do not let your wife bait you. She is scared crap-less right now, and I am sure you are too.
I am still scared too. But I am committed fully.
And if I can do it, you can rock your life too
This post is long, but I want you to know that I am on the other side of the 180 and I want a divorce, BUT that pain in the butt is making it hard
He's opening up and becoming that beautiful man again.
I love myself...and now I can put on the breaks and start to give love a chance again.
Thanks CMF,
It seems everyday she asks me the same questions - How can you love me when I don't love you, not attracted to you, and don't respect you? She keeps asking what are you going to do since there is no emotional connection? I respond that it is her decision. I know how I feel and what I want. She keeps tell me I will not fulfil her emotional needs and there is someone out there for me. I do not know what to say to that any more. I keep repeated the same party line, "you may feel that way, but I do not feel that way." I am giving her space, but she still wants me to be part of the family activities. This is the hardest thing to do at times. I understand my lack of communication and selfishness pushed her away, I am truly sorry for that. My only way is to detach further, but how? Another difficult thing is to be around mutual friends right now. It seems none of them know.
Is this a set-up? Should I write down what her emotionally needs are? All I know are the basic needs support, love, listening (validation), comfort, compliments, etc. This request feels dangerous.
Yeah, it's pretty much a set-up. Do you know why she is telling you to write down her emotional needs? My guess would be to prove you don't know. And you don't.
Women want to feel a connection with their man. If she feels emotionally connected with you then she is ready to have the physical connection. The worst mistake was moving out of the master bedroom. There is a lot to be said for an old expression...."pillow talk". That is when a lot of women feel that connection.
IMO, your W is a WAW in an A. That means it makes things more difficult than just a walk away spouse who doesn't have another person in their head. She is turning to OM trying to get what she feels you've neglected. I'm not saying she's right, I'm just telling you what she's doing. She is getting something emotionally from OM, and she has you as her house boy.
She seems very angry and disrespectful, which goes hand in hand with the WAW in an A. She is pushing your buttons b/c she is so angry at you. You have disappointed her as a H. It took a while, but now she's mad and fed up. She wants you out of there. But of course, don't leave.
If you are still using the same answers to what she says........let me tell ya, it ain't working for ya. First of all, stop kissing her rear!! Secondly, stop telling her you love her. Don't be a dog waiting around to see if she pats your head. You need a different plan of action.
So, I'll ask you again, what are you getting out of this arrangement with her?
I don't want to speak for all the women out there but if you can, permit me to give you an insight into a woman's mind...
She's playing jedi mind tricks on you. This is an art that women are very skilled at. We can say one thing and totally mean another and it's not necessarily negative unless it's used in a negative way. While she may act like she means it because in that moment (in her mind) she does, it's not entirely true. She's trying to elicit a response from you and she's trying to get you to go along with her. Don't fall for it. It's really a poor and immature way of communicating. I'm ashamed to say this but I have done it. Thankfully, I'm recovering. I've realized that i was impeding my own growth by perpetuating the behavior in my M. Guys do it too, right? So I stopped it. As the saying goes "You get more of what you give" has a lot of weight in R. You see, I was the poor communicator in my M. It's what I learned from my parents. I didn't know a safe way to handle my anger and insecurities. I just knew I felt them and had to be rid of them no matter what and whichever way how. Even stoop as low as acting like a child (stomping feet, crossing arms, pursed lips, crying.) Well, I didn't really stomp my feet but...
So, you've got several good thing working for you. One: she doesn't want a legal separation, right? I think I read this somewhere in the thread. B: your mutual friends are clueless about your situation. Which means she's not truly ready to break the marriage if she won't come out with the news to family/friends. 12: she still wants you included in the family activities. True, there's a reason for you to be there but if she really wanted you out of her life she would just take the kids and leave.
I am truly sorry that you have fallen prey to this twisted emotional game she is playing. It makes me want to shake her and give a couple of slaps (joking) and do the mommy finger point. It seems to me that she's looking for a motivation from you to stay or leave. So think hard...what was it about you that she fell in love with? Was it your sense of direction? Are you the kind that doesn't mind the back seat while W is behind the wheel? What is she like? Controlling or submissive? If whatever she fell in love with has been gone for quite some time then perhaps it's time for you to pull out the old tricks. Conversely, if you've been a steady stream throughout the marriage then maybe it's time to venture out of your comfort zone. Are you safe or adventurous? Try the "Do something different" and she how she reacts.
Lastly, she may also be needing some tough love from you. There is this book called "Love Must Be Tough" by James Dobson that suggest the approach of an ultimatum. The ultimate ultimatum. Dobson posits that people (WAS) who are on the fence about their M are really seeking tough love. They need someone to draw the line (lovingly) by lifting the cage gate thus giving the WAS their freedom. Of course, after being released the WAS is left to wonder if this is what they truly want. So, if she appreciates your assertiveness she may be wanting you to step in and do the shaking (instead of me.) This is a poor abstract of the book. It is a very easy read. It took me no time at all to finish it because it was full of good info. So check it out and let me know what you think.
Oh, and we all know that you're sincerely sorry for not seeing what she needed from you. All you can do is apologize, make the necessary changes and prove to her that you do care. But, she has to be willing to give you an honest and fair chance to correct things. Stringing you along is not fair. So continue turning the questions back to her rather than affirming her because she really is testing your resolve.
sandi2,
I have not said the L word in months. I am using your 37 rules, though at times a slip on some things. I do not ask about anything in her life. I do try to share things, occasionally, about my what is going on in my life. I only really try to talk about the kids or if something needs to be done with the house or vehicles.
In this arrangement, I have my few nights a week where I do my own thing - mostly the outdoor activities. Every so often I meet up with people for a night out. So I GAL. I have minimized the cleaning I do and the house shows it. She is talking to me about taking the kids away for a weekend to clean the house. I am planning activities for just the kids and myself. I do get my own time, and if I let her know in advance I can have other plans. This is what I get out of the arrangement.
So in the sitch where she does leave, takes the children and gets a lawyer - what are my options? I know I can drop a letter at the school saying the kids cannot be pulled out without mutual consent. But what about other things?
CMF,
My poor way of communicating was saying very little. Also, not hearing and acting on what she was saying to me. It was a bad point in my life and I only trying to stay above water.
You are the second person to mention the jedi mind trick to me.
We were very active together. What attracted us to each other was our work ethics, athletic activities, what we did to have fun and directions we wanted to go in life. We both were work hard, play hard mentalities. I loved the fact that we could share decision making or taking the lead in the relationship. She loved that I could make her laugh - something she says she does not want from me now. She was not controlling or submissive - she was more of an equal, a partner.
I just make my kids. That is a great thing they wrote in their father's day cards to me.
My problems started happening when everything was rough with health and work, I stopped letting her take the lead in our life and hearing what she had to say to me.
She does not want a legal separation. She wants greater space from me.
Not sure if turning the questions back to her will work. I tried that and it only aggravated her more.
So in the sitch where she does leave, takes the children and gets a lawyer - what are my options? I know I can drop a letter at the school saying the kids cannot be pulled out without mutual consent. But what about other things?
Don't wait to see if it happens. Get legal advice now! You need to know your rights as a father where you live. Take necessary steps to protect yourself and your kids. Definantely tell the school of any changes. If I were you, I would call any credit companies to get your name off any charge cards she uses. Separate your money into a private account now, and have the remaing account for the household expenses. Follow your lawyer's advice in how to further protect your property.
I know this may sound a little cut-throat, but we read where it happens every day........WAW takes LBH to the cleaners!
One thing I see that H's seem to have in common is fear of making the W angry. You cannot afford to allow that fear to get a grip on you b/c it paralyzes. You have to show your confidence, strength, independence and decisiveness. These are traits in men that most women admire, but more importantly, will help you stand tall in the eyes of your children.
I believe the LBH should not act as though he is a victim who is waiting in fear to see what his W's next move may be. It will cause you to give off those vibes and not only cause more disrespect from her, but will affect you self-confidence. So I encourage you to get active in "living" a life apart from her. Do no allow her actions/attitude to hold you captive in a situation where you feel completely powerless. There is one area you have power and control....and that is "you". In the past you may have never made plans without consulting with her first. You would not have dressed up and went out while leaving her home with the kids. You need to change all that immediately.
Not looking good. I have called a few L to talk to about my sitch. Threats of leaving with the children and getting a L keep coming. I need to find out my rights. I am practising LRT. I do not bring up the R, but she keeps bringing up how me being around is killing her and making her a bad mom. She seems to despise me completely and blame me for her unhappiness. She says she is not angry, but when she talks she tenses up and her face turns red. I am confused about this and wonder what is best for the kids.
You have talked to a few lawyers but still don't know your rights?
She is using threats to control you and get you to leave the home. You don't cause her to be a bad mother. She causes her to be a bad mother! She's really digging for stuff to get to you now. Maybe she's right, maybe she's not being good to the kids. Anyway of knowing? Have you seen it first hand?
I suggest you stay away from her as much as possible, at least until you get a lawyer. Have you taken any action to protect yourself financiall, as I previously suggested?
I have called a few lawyers. Explained my sitch to the legal admin and waiting for call backs or playing phone tag.
I do stay away as much as possible, are only interactions now are when we are with the children. The only way to be further away is to leave the home.
She sees changes in me but they are not enough. She still does not like how I communicate.
She is not a bad mom.
She keeps telling me there will never be a deep emotional connection between us. She also says I will never get from her what I need emotionally.
Part of me wants to go to a mediator.
I have talked to a lot of people who are divorced with children and all of the children have issues, even one of her friends who married someone with a child deals with the child having eating disorders and self-mutilation. I do not point any of this out though. She seems oblivious to these situations or thinks it will be different.
She also says she feels everything is a competition with me. That I am competing with her, and have to be better than her. This completely confuses me. I am not intending to compete with her on anything. We do a lot of the same activities but I do not bring up these things. She feels I compete with her for the children. I am not doing that. Playing with my kids is one of my brightest spots of the day. I get lost and have fun with them and it is the only time I feel unconditional love.
I think this post rambles and is disjointed but it is stuff I need to get off my chest.
I have talked to a lot of people who are divorced with children and all of the children have issues, even one of her friends who married someone with a child deals with the child having eating disorders and self-mutilation. I do not point any of this out though. She seems oblivious to these situations or thinks it will be different.
She also says she feels everything is a competition with me. That I am competing with her, and have to be better than her. This completely confuses me. I am not intending to compete with her on anything. We do a lot of the same activities but I do not bring up these things. She feels I compete with her for the children. I am not doing that. Playing with my kids is one of my brightest spots of the day. I get lost and have fun with them and it is the only time I feel unconditional love.
Don't concentrate on the kid aspect of it. You don't want her to come back to you out of guilt. And besides the one thing those other kids didn't have that yours do is... you. Be the best parent you can be. You need to show them that no matter what else is going on in your life you are going to be there for them. You're the father and they count on you. And definitely don't let your W hold you back from being a good parent.
You mentioned your dissatisfaction with marriage counseling so I am going to urge you to speak to a Divorce Busting Coach now. Our coaches are highly specialized professionals who know exactly how to help you learn to say and do the things you need to do to get your marriage back on track. Call me to discuss our Divorce Busting Coaching Program 303-444-7004.
I am already talking to a coach. I am using their suggestions.
W definitely is not holding me back. The children cry when I am away on travel. They have said this at the dinner table. When she is on travel they are not affected as much. I am being the best I can be as a parent. I am there when they need me. They know why I love them. I have a routine I use with them that I found out is very similar to something Shirzad Chamine does with his kids. Actually his book for team building and performance has been good for me. I am a team lead and it was recommended for team development. It is a little new agey but I like it. The book has info that helps with relationships.
Hi And. I've read your thread.
This is what I see. WAW in an A - not sure if EA or PA. She is spewing constantly at you. She is trying every technique to make you out as the bad guy so she can justify her leaving, and justify her actions.
Don't buy into it. Don't believe a word she says. She's in a total fog.
You cannot reason with her. In Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman it states: "The emotional mind takes its beliefs to be absolutely true and so discounts any evidence to the contrary. That is why it is so hard to reason with someone who is emotionally upset: no matter the soundness of your argument from a logical point of view, it carries no weight if it is out of keeping with the emotional conviction of the moment. Feelings are self-justifying, with a set of perceptions and 'proofs' all their own"
So therefore, I repeat, do not believe anything she says. She will spew all sorts of stuff. You need to put on a really thick spew jacket, smile, tell her "that must be hard" and walk away.
Be happy, content, calm. Be a loving father (for the kids' sake).
She will probably escalate the spewing before she hits a wall. Hold your ground.
Oh, and you need to detach. It's very hard to do but absolutely necessary for your own survival in the next while. For that I recommend the following:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/Copy this article, paste it into your word processor and edit it to be in the first person and with the name of your W where required. Delete any irrelevant phrases. Make this your detachment mantra. That helped me a great deal, although it's still a daily challenge.
Don't move out. I may even suggest going to bed in the matrimonial bed before she goes to bed. If she tells you to get out then just roll over and go to sleep. Take back your life. You're not doing anything wrong. If she doesn't like it she is the one who will make the decision to sleep in the other bedroom.
Finally was able to talk to two lawyers, waiting on the third. Probably will be the same response from the third. She can leave and take the children. I cannot stop her from taking the kids. My only recourse is if she puts the children in jeopardy or makes it impossible for me to see them. Keeping me away from the kids would be for certain amount of time. Both recommended to protect myself and my parental rights by going to mediation to prevent this from happening.
I love my children and do not want to put them under any undo stress. Why do I have to be the adult here. I feel like I am letting the child get away with a tantrum.
I over heard her saying she wants to get out of the marriage. I have told her before I am not trapping her, she can leave at any time. She still blames me for everything.
If it wasn't for exercise, meditation, and prayer, I would be a total(not the word I want to use) mess. GAL is hard at times - I end up doing things by myself because of the few friends, who have a degree of separation, cancel meeting me. Still working on establishing a closer friendship with the people I do activities with during the week. I do not want to come across as needy.
I feel frustrated, angry and hurt. I cannot wait to lift weights and do some yard work.
I finally went to an IC today. Not sure if I will go again, she kept asking me why I am trying to save the marriage when it takes two people to work on the R. She says my W has checked out already, so why do I stay? She wants me to come to grips with my feelings of loss.
Also, I talked to my 4th and 5th L today. They all read from the same playbook it seems, go to mediation, CYA and then move out. Not sure what to do any more. It seems friends and family all say the same thing also. It is so frustrating and makes me pissed off and angry.
Has any one else heard the same advice?
And0324, they all say the same thing because they don't know about DB/DR.
You know if you want to save your marriage, this is your best shot.
I'd like to offer some advice but I'm no expert, just someone else struggling in a similar boat. All I can say is, keep on keeping on.
Old Dog xx
I feel like I am swimming against a strong river. Today she asked why I continue to wear my ring. She said the marriage is over and it is time to move forward. I feel so frustrated, angry and hurt.
Do I keep the ring on or do I stop wearing it??
I went out with family friends(both couples know about the sitch) this weekend because they all asked me. It was strange I had a good time but still felt something missing. I really like these people. My W disses both couples marriages a lot, saying their marriages are not of a good emotional connection either. They all seem happy to me. They also are more open to me about the difficulties in their marriages. I feel like I am a counsellor at times. Even the one marriage she thinks is great, has issues. The wife told me of the issues they had on a recent trip, all I kept thinking was damn she is forgiving. I would have ended up being in a world of trouble if I only remembered the flight tickets. I keep looking for any positives in the R.
All I know is this is not all me, though she says it is mine to own.
Hi ya, And.
So sorry to find you here.
A coupla things here:
-it sounds like your IC is crappy and not solutions based. You might want to think about switching to another IC who is supportive of you and your goals.
-DO NOT move out of the house under any circumstances. It is W who is having a problem and should be the one to move out. Not you.
-wearing a ring or not is a personal choice. A lot of the times the WAS wants to see the ring gone to assuage of their own guilt. It seems to me that you want to continue wearing your ring...then do it.
We've heard a lot of what your W said around here in DBland. Sorry to say ...but pretty much script.
I would suggest that you stop talking with your family and friends about your M. You would want the road back home paved smooth for your W and talking about your M to others just makes it harder for the WAS to come back home because they feel "betrayed" by the talks behind their backs.
How are you doing in the GAL department?
Here's extra help for you:
Validation: Cheat Sheet
The family friends are cool. They don't ask and I don't offer any info. We go out eat and talk about other things or go out and have fun. I am out for the fun and companionship. I think they just care about me.
GAL is going ok. the outdoor group is awesome. A good group of guys. I also will be coaching my S this fall. I am also getting a lot of compliments on my attire and my physique.
I have the validation sheet, but I still become defensive occasionally
And,
I have the validation sheet, but I still become defensive occasionally
Getting defensive or feeling defensive is something you need to dig deep and find the source of it within you. All the answers are inside you.
Why are you feeling defensive?
What's making you feel defensive?
Wonka,
She says I am a negative person. I get defensive because people enjoy working with me and say I have a positive attitude. I said this to her. She responded that I am emotionally shallow and they only see the surface. She is the only person who finds me negative.
She also brings up the past mistakes.
She also tells me the worst thing in life is to end up with people who makes you feel alone.
I went to the IC again and she asked more questions and seemed a little more supportive. I told her about how my W does not want me to do activities with "her" friends when they ask me. Also how she says that me doing some of the same sports, is taking the sports away from her. The IC's response was "what is she, nine." She also said that even though my W says she has no feelings towards me, her actions and words show anger.
And0324 I am not saying that this is what is happening but check this out...
Do you think you might only be negative when you are around her and with her only? If you have resentments towards her that might be a reason.
Now for the next, she asked you to remove the ring...you became angry about it.... Why?
Do you believe in wearing the ring? If you do, whatever she says its out of your business....
My ExW didnt liked that I wanted to talk about kids at all...I took that personal and thought it was my fault, was it? Nop , I wanted kids, and I wanted to have info about if we were gonna have them or not...it wasnt my problem that I talked about it, it was something going on with her that she didnt wanted to have the conversation at all...
I mean if she is upset for something that you are doing that hurts her, bro you have to change that....if it hurts her that you eat food everyday....she is the one who has to deal with that, not you.
Analize what makes her nuts, and see what its your responsability and what is simple resentment towards you....
At the end of my relationship my ex will get upset because I didnt carried at least $100 cash on my wallet....I understand she was upset about it, but I had no idea that made her upset because she never told me that it mades her upset... I am not a mind reader...
Take responsability for what you do, change it, and accept that somethings you cant change them.
This is not about the ring, she is already tired of the relationship and everything makes her upset so now its the perfect time for you to step absolutelly away from her and not pay attention to her 9 years old request, otherways she is gonna grow more and more resentment towards you.
ye21,
I believe in wearing the ring. I still care and love her. It is the sign of the commitment I made to her. Plus we are still a married couple.
The things that she says are negative have happened in the past. Items like when I became frustrated that we went over our monthly budget. Especially when she had an expenditure that I did not know about. Or when she did not turn in her expense reports for the hotel and car rental on business trips and we would have to cover those costs for for months. Or when I became frustrated with the kids when they were 3 and 7 because they would be difficult to get to bed some times.
I am working on being more deep and descriptive of my emotions. This is one of her complaints. She wants to know what is the root cause of feelings or compliments. She is not satisfied by me saying I am angry that you did whatever, or I am disappointed, or you look beautiful in that dress, or your exercise and diet have made you look awesome. She wants more.
She also wants me out of the house. She sends info on apartments or places to rent.
So how do I step away from her? She is unwilling to leave.
I do not respond to a majority of her comments.
Hi just catching up on your sitch. Stay strong. I am not veteran, but I strongly agree that you should not move out. Bad move legally, and DB-wise.
And,
Many WAS get into a negative state of mind as a way to justify the reasons for leaving the M. They have a looong scorecard of your 'wrongs' and holding on to it tightly.
Just continue doing the activities you enjoy regardless of how W responds. Stay in the marital home and if W brings up you moving out, put a hand up and say "If this is a problem for you, you should be moving out. I am staying here as this is my home."
You can move in another bedroom.
If her criticisms of you being negative are valid, then work on those issues and work on being more patient when interacting with your kids, wife, friends and family.
Exactly gread advice from Wonka, remember wanted a D its a choice. The fact that she wants a D doesnt made you a criminal, and the fact that she doesnt like things doesnt made those things real, try to find out what its real and what you can change, and if something smells bad dont believe it just because she says that.
I took all the issues in my relationship as my fault, and agreed I should be treated bad because... And nothing more far away from reality.
Take decissions based on your well being, balancing those decissions to not harm others, and dont let others take decissions for their well being that will hurt you, you have the same right to not be harm as she does.
Oh and thats pretty atractive for others as well, when you take care of yourself
You are right. She keeps telling me I controlled her by always being 15-30 minutes late for things. I was being selfish and inconsiderate, but not controlling. She says I am in denial and I will never have a good relationship because I do not look deeply at myself. She is wrong on those points. Her filters and perceptions see more than is/was there at that time. She keeps saying I am a know-it-all when I talk about subjects. I was just trying to talk to her about something I learned today. She replied that I should just say what I did and asked her if she wanted to be informed about it.
She also has been talking about my family still being in denial about everything.
What is bad is that even the counsellors both said her expectations may be unreasonable for a relationship.
I am really having trouble here. She is wearing me down and my resolve is weakening. Not sure how long I can last. The support I had is dwindling and more people believe I should end the marriage. They all think she needs a cold dose of reality.
She wants me to admit that I controlled her by finishing up workouts or getting home 15-30 minutes late. I admit I was selfish and inconsiderate about the workouts, but is this controlling behaviour??? She is aggravating me and attacking my character.
I also found out she went away 2 weeks ago with the OM. I have not confronted her about this. not sure what to do. She left her phone out and unlocked and I read a text message from her to one of her female friends. She also has talked to him more and sent other text messages to him. She also has sent him pictures.
Her only regret is she was unable to reach me and when I was down. I still find it somewhat arrogant on her part. Both counsellors have said we needed some professional help at that time.
I am really at the last resort point. She is getting a lawyer and is planning to set up mediation. I now have to decide on one myself.
I am beginning to follow your posts and see some similarities. I hate seeing that you are going through something so similar, but I'll offer as much support/encouragement as I can.