Divorcebusting.com
So my story,
no affair or anything, my wife after an awkward six months when she said she was no longer in love with me finally said she does not respect me because I have never looked after her and our three kids well. She has always had to quietly take a 2nd job just to make ends meet. I would be a teenager and just work p/t and think thats good enough for me i am "providing". Well when she said I am leaving you, thats when i finally REALLY heard her and am making all these steps from being a stay home dad this past year ( she agrees i am a great Dad) to work f/t...but is that enough? She says she already considers us divorce, did not want me to comfort her at all when two deaths at work and in her family (grama) happened and then she did not want to celebrate our 14yr anniversary three days ago. ...most hellish worst day of my life...like not celebrating a birthday, in such agony.
Well reading DB and implimenting some 180s but will that just make it worse? We are separating next month and basically live separate lives in our house looking after the kids...the 8 yr old girl is catching on and asking questions (we never fight in front of them r really fight at all) She did say two months ago "there is a 5% chance we can save this marriage if I see you change from afar" I am terrible with money too so that is also contributing and being sorted but I just need some hope. I have worked f/t in the past but just got lazy...I am getting counseling , changing myself cause i hate myself for not manning up and seeing this before and putting 200% but she is just done and she did not communicate to me loud enough and wont event got counseling. any help is really appreciated
I will never forget reading that whenever a woman says anything twice, the man considers it nagging. But then the LBH complains his W didn't tell him iLoud enough, often enough, or n a way he could understand her. Go figure.

I can give you somewhat of a viewpoint of the WAW, and maybe tell you what most women like & don't like. I can probably tell you a lot of things not to do. I can't guarantee anything will work at this point. But I believe I can promise one thing......if you don't change the way you have always been.....and change for the rest of your life, you can kiss goodbye any hope of a future with her.

Are you ready to do whatever it takes to save your M and family, or are you wanting an easy solution to get her back.....and then you fall back into old behavior? I assure you there are no easy solutions at this point. By easy, I am referring to a lack of effort.

You referenced your laziness with not working full time. But what about in the other areas? How would you grade your role in the upkeep of the house, cars, and yards? You know, the things that are traditionally thought of as being what the man takes care of. Was your W always asking you to something around the place? Did she need your help with things?

What about your efforts in the relationship? How much effort did you put forth to do the things you KNEW would make her happier? You called yourself a "stay home dad". Yet I only see one preschool age child. Why did you stay home? Did you do all the work your W would do if you were on a job and she was the one staying home?

I know I am asking a lot of questions, but it is so we have a better picture.

Have you ever tried to learn how to budget......and stay on the budget? There is probably all kind of assistance on the Internet free of charge.

I can tell you this much, women will lose respect for a lazy man very quickly. I'm surprised your W endured this long. You need a plan of "action" to change yourself and get it going ASAP. She will have to see you in action and see that it won't stop, before she's convinced you are serious. I think it will take quite some time to earn her respect.

Are you working full time now?

I am glad you are in counseling! But I can understand that your W doesn't think she's the one with the problem and therefore, doesn't need to go.

Don't do anything that makes you appear needy/clingy/smothering/weak/begging. Trying to talk her into changing her mind won't work. You have to show her what a great catch you are. She will be watching.

I was like your W. I was so done with my H. It is very difficult to get the energy or interest to try again, when you feel you are dead inside.

Use this time wisely.
Thanks so much for replying.
No I didnt do alot of things I knew would make her happy...I thought everything was "fine" and I had such selected listening...the only thing I did well and do is laundry, cleaning house, vacuuming...house stuff,make dinners...car duties was ok too.
I stayed home because my wife ended up getting a promotion at work to ft manager and so we switched roles to continue to homeschool our 6 & 8 yr old. In retro spective she took the ft job b/c I was just happy working p/t...an she did it begrudgingly but didnt say anything cause she was so used to picking up the slack...while seething inside of course.

Budget wise since my wife went ft, I took over the finances and taking responsibility with money made her feel less anxious about having to carry this but i blew it a couple times...we are a little behind now but I just finished Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover book and am hellbent on applying a budget.
In fact I just opened up a college fund to proves t my wife I am thinking about our future---the kids future and not just being frivolous

and yes looking for ft right now but we are both trying to figure this out with her working 6-5pm almost 6 days a week. She is so tired that she sleeps early and I look after the kids in the evening too ( which i dont mind of course...she is making a huge sacrifice) I just cringe when she says "you just coast all the time" though I understand where she is coming from

Yes i know this is a huge change of my worldview to be other centered and not a teenager and selfish. One of the best things this has awoken in me is that it "feels good to work and provide for my family" I know everyone should no that ! but i didnt and when i apply that to my p/t work I work harder and feel better. life lesson: you gotta live for more than just yourself to have meaning.

I loved saving your "180 tips" and yeah putting on my game face with sincerity for her...so yeah I am giving her lots of space cause she is so mad at me that she "cant trust me" because I didnt love her enough to give her security by just providing for her. I am aiming for being consistent as I work at getting work and showing her practical ways I can be her husband and take care of her. Thanks for letting me hear about the other side
How are you doing Ray?
Thank for asking Sandi.
I am dbing and even began some 'do something completely out of character' behaviours:
1)Listen to her. shut up and stop taking it personally and reacting. Yesterday was the quietest I have been even as she snapped at me. so proud of my self control!
2)no shouting to communicate. This isnt yelling.Get within earshot of kids. Be calm when running late. Shouting means to her I am getting excited and mad (whether I am or not). Freaks her out. I am gonna stop living out my childhood
3)wake up at 7am. everyday. usually I wake up after 8am after she has left for work. teaching myself and her I am not lazy and can get some more work done bright and early. Kids are already asking "why are you awake so early"

going out for coffee with my soon to be WAW to discuss next months moving/separation...end of June. I dont think I have a chance to change her mind in 5 weeks. But I am learning to accept that and keep working on myself. Will tell kids next month too.Brutal for both of us.

I still have a goal in mind to build her a castle with my bare hands that my beauty can live in. Job applications are already sent out and I'm sure something will come in.

So my mood is optimistic today as what you say is true. I can't change the way she feels, she has to do it herself and this really takes the weight of all that anxiety off me. In spite of all this I love her now more than I have ever loved her....and thats why your (and MIchelle's) 37 rules have to be lived out well so I can receive her back to me.
Sounds great! Stick with it, even though she may not respond the way you'd. In the end, you will have greater self-respect and overall better feeling.

You'll be tempted to try to talk her out of leaving these next five weeks. But, it's better to just live your 180's and let that those changes do the speaking to her heart.
Sandi2
Question: So as I am changing myself with a harder work ethic, (doing something I am passionate about helps ;D )
would it be ok if after a month I just took my wife aside and gave her an envelope of money as my first "kill" for her?
(y'know going out as a hunter, providing for my family) Of course I wont word it as that but something along the lines of: "This $X is for you. Its what a provider and husband does. Use it on whatever."

or is that breaking dB rules cause its a gift...and it may drive her even more away. Thanks
Ray,

Instead of giving her that money why not put it in that college fund you spoke about

It might have the same effect you are looking for but you are not pointing it out to her directly but nice and subtle like showing no pursuit.

Just my Two cents.

P.S. Sandi2 I just love all your advice and try to use it as much as I can in my Particular sitch.
I would tread lightly with talk about money. When I offered mine to pay her for her attorney fees if she withdrew the divorce papers she got very upset. Said that it's not about money, she couldn't care less about money.
I think Nit had a good suggestion. (Btw, thanks Nit for your kind words.).

I believe the less attention "you" draw to the fact you are working and providing for your family......the better. I believe I understand your need to hand her the money and tell her you are fulfilling your role as provider, but in all honesty, you will be setting yourself up to be shot down by her.

Another option would be to simply deposit it in the account used to pay household expenses. She will see the balance is more than expected and she may ask about it. Then you can play Mr. Cool and don't make a big deal over it (even though you want to jump up & down). smile
Nit84, VFL, Sandi

Thanks my friends for your thoughtful advice. I think depositing money into her new bank account (when she opens one) sounds like the best option to "play it cool" (thx sandi)

As for today we had a brief talk about how we are going to break the news to her parents and our kids. Had the stupid thought of getting her parents to gang up on her to help save this marriage but for sure that would wreck this even worse.

But another "me" issue has come up ....been aware of this with counselling lightly that I have this vibe that I give off to Atara ---kind of a pouty controlling vibe whenever she does something I don't approve of. This is how I have manipulated her and made her stay and "take care of me" all these dysfunctional years.

Well now I can "recognize" it and sometimes it just breaks thru when i am 180ing.
I am not even *saying* anything but there is this tension in the air and I just have to leave the room to kill it. Man! I know the only thing that will save this M is if I give her freedom to leave.....so she will be free and willing to come back.

But on a good note I joined an ultimate frisbee group. (I have never played team sports, just fun drop in ones and never frisbee) and she was quite shocked kept saying "we'll it looks like you are doing new things too!" And i am pretty convinced my WAW is in some sort of MLC too. All her new things: listening to rock music like crazy ...buying iTunes songs like crazy, smoking again after 13years break (as long as we have been married), new clothes, new sexy short haircut. If I didn't know any better WAW may be DB but I do love the new her too. She is a lot more exciting cause she is not letting me (old me) weigh her down...
Thank God for both of us I am changing. We can take our new transformations and have a new transformed marriage.
Hope someone can help me out with disclosing to her parents:
Next week we have called a meeting with her family (my family is not in the city)
Who we spend a lot of babysitting time with to break the news of our separation.
I know they really value me as part of the family. Now after we tell them (maybe I should break the news gently instead of my WAW? Or should she cause its her parents?)
Should I add "This is not what I want" or should I just shut up. Probrably not a good idea to bring up issues in front of everyone or even talk about our marriage problems even if they press.....
Actions are louder than words right?
I do not advise you to deposit money into her personal account! Only the account that pays for the expenses.

Her getting her a personal account is a step a WAW takes as her indepence gets closer. You should not boost that balance.

As for telling her parents, I believe you could can be present while she explains to her parents. Mainly to make sure she doesn't put her spin on things. If you want to say that D is not what you want, I think it would be okay........if she leaves the impression that both of you are in agreement. (However, her parents will probably ask if it is what both of you want, without you volunteering the information ). I do not believe you should get into any relationship discussion while at her parents.

Even when the in-laws love you and are not happy with your S, when push comes to shove, that is their child and they will support her. And I think most parents want their daughter to be M to a man who provides for his family.......no matter how much they like him.
Thanks Sandi. I think she is just going to have one bank account to look after everything so I will rethink how I can bless her with money under the radar still.

and I absolutely agree about working. In our 13 years of marriage I haven't been consistent but i have worked full time as a job developer and in human resources for about half our married life but just flaked into part time in the last couple years. 180ing and working ft is very achievable so I think I will just be present with our disclosure to parents, let them know if asked that I want to work on M, but maybe just let my actions speak for themselves. Working full time looking after myself and kids and showing a less needy "look after me demeanor"

She did waffle today though and followed me around the house looking sad and trying to start some conversation which I engaged in very briefly but cheerfully. She kept saying " It feels like we haven't talked in forever" and inside I was like yeah I know I am 180ing you....;D

Then she made some compliments on "wow you have lost some weight" translation you look good! I did not tell her it is partially due to stress of M and not eating besides my mad jogging habit I have 180ed into. but all in all today is the best interaction I have had in weeks! so hurray 180s! Gonna keep my head in the game now and go in for the long haul of change.
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She did waffle today though and followed me around the house looking sad and trying to start some conversation which I engaged in very briefly but cheerfully. She kept saying " It feels like we haven't talked in forever" and inside I was like yeah I know I am 180ing you....;D


Crazy, huh? They want to leave, but at the same time, want you to feel bad for them. Just got through reading a post where the WAW in an A turned up at LBH'S place crying over her own misery. It seems to be common for them to act this way when reality starts setting in.

She is going to want you to be her friend, and will probably ask for hugs. crazy

Keep up the good work.
Just thought I'd check in.
Things seem to be a little bit better than back to normal. Since the 'cold-thaw' two days ago when my wife was the nicest and most curious she has ever been about me since she dropped the "D" word two months ago. She has withdrawn a bit cautiously but maybe she is getting her guard up again because I am 180ing and going a bit dark--detaching but appearing friendly and happy with boundaries. Honestly I wanna scream and pole vault over my boundaries and just gush about my love for her but I know that would send me back about fifty miles in progress. She keeps hinting that we should have a conversation...about our separation...about the logistics of moving out and the kids? I dont know but I will wait a few days and when she really presses will start a dialogue.
You veterans are all right about not getting too happy too fast over progress that happens. I was overjoyed she wanted to be near me again, but now she has cooled so this is a battle of "seeing if my changes stick" and her "I'm going to re-committ myself" to the M sticks. Right now I am breathing those deep breathless sighs over the WAW I love but gonna stay on the operating table and keep changing my heart and life ruthlessly.another couple hours of job hunting awaits me.
Blah! WAW just came in the door, I said something like "Hi, welcome back" and she says "what's wrong? Why are you so grumpy?"

Has anyone addressed the fact that 180ing can be extremely hard if you are a bad liar?*sigh*
Well I have fooled her before and I guess I got to up my "no expectations" so I can act as if more. I am sure my game face will get better ;D
I understand how you feel about being a liar. Acting "as if" I never took as lying, I took it as practice for whom I was becoming. It does take practice and I cannot imagine having to do it while under the same roof. Have you watched the TED talk about faking it till you become it and power positions to boost self-esteem? They really helped me. I will see if I can find their specific titles and speaker's names.
Hey that would be great! I love TEDtalks. I just need to add some leverage to my 180ing. Thanks gogofo.
Well I did a reverse 180 again today...blah...
Told WAW I had a place to move into (she wanted us to rent our place for another month and I was like "no way") and then when she asked how I felt about it is when I lost it and started grumbling and being a little pouty:

"How do you think I feel? I am not happy and am just rolling with the punches here!"
"well what about living at...."she counters
" I can't just sleep on his floor all the time"
and then she goes:
"whoa, whoa, whoa (ok I am leaving and we're not getting into this)"
...Then after cooling off I texted her a chunk of text I found about WAW and how "there are hundreds of stories where WAW give up hope but don't realize their LBS have finally woken up and will change heaven and earth to save marriage.."
Pursuing? absolutely. Needy & Pushy? Yes again

I am so frustrated and defeated.....and just four days ago she was acting so warm towards me. It [censored] that we don't know hw to act around each other anymore. Gonna go back to re reading DB
Does anyone have DB mouth clamp or staple gun?
Its so hard not to just start yapping away and throw in a bit of pleading so they will stay. I guess in my case its because as you said sandi2 I am trying to talk her out of it now that the end is near ( i mean as our separation approaches) 180 and detach I know.
All she said was "how do you feel about living with ___?" and I should have just said "fine" with a huge 180 smile. Instead I crumpled and told her "how do you think I feel I am rolling with the punches (you have given me)" *sigh*
open mouth, insert foot. Well I am going to fortify my willpower now and just talk with as few only positive words as possible. DB reloaded and ready for round two.

Oh and I have three job interviews upcoming. Yay!
You're not going to be able to talk your way out.......or back in, as the case may be.

Good luck on your job interviews. That is great!!
Update time!

So I was feeling very wretched this morning, missing my wife and thinking of all the ways i could apologize to her and show her my remorse so she would have me back as her husband. I was replaying the tapes as my heart was slowly punctured again and again, but then I wrote in small pen on my palm "Detach, believe none of what you hear and half of what you see, no expectations"
Took that to heart added some God thoughts and prayer and pulled out of it. Realized again there is no more need to apologize...I have said sorry for a few months pre-DB. The only thing to do is just love the new changed repentant me and hope that she can too. Deep breaths
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Realized again there is no more need to apologize...I have said sorry for a few months pre-DB.


Exactly, and in fact, it could turn her off more. Apologizing over & over again becomes too begging/pleading/needy to be attractive to a WAW.
Thanks Sandi2, no more spologizing.

Today's big pre-talk:disclosing to inLaws and kids next week

I am quite proud of myself. 4C just about killed me today. I had a paper and pen in hand to be extra attentive and we made some great scripts to share for "Dis"(closure) days. Will tell inLaws first and then a week later kids.
The big stabbing wound today was when she said "Ok ..I just want to make sure the kids don't ever think we are going to get back together again". I just bit my lip quietly and made sure I didnt scream out, wail, cry and beg. I just nodded quietly and wonder of wonders, I went 180 and did not freak but stayed strong!
I am believing none of it...
Through the whole hour I just kept deep breathing and projected confidence and with just a blip or two...caught myself wanting to give her the 4th degree about how divorce would wreck our kids blah blah...
The only other awesome highlight is when we decided to answer our children:
"...well sometimes mommys and daddys have problems that are too hard to fix so when we live in different houses we will be able to work on these hard problems"
She may not have meant it but it is said so hopefully her heart will go there as well so we can both change.
so now I know God was with me and I am going to meditate and pray some peace, DETACH and look forward to taking my 8yr old to her first symphony tonight. cool
So DR question on "more of the same"...(step #4)
Michelle asks what kind of arguments keep coming up and to be solutions based and do the opposite. I totally agree but our problem is we dont have any arguments cause we never talk about anything. She just never says anything and I have been pouty and get my way all the time...i have just steam rollered over my WAW...another reason she is walking out the door. Now that I have realized this I guess our solutions based action for me would be to initiate and talk about all the sex and money problems we have pushed under the carpet.
But she doesnt want to talk to me about anything at all.....so I guess I have to wait till the LRT/180/ going dark works...really hoping it does.... and then when she wants to talk about R I can bring it up. That is such a lame answer but its true right?
In that example, yes. If you don't argue (or talk right now), then that was only an example you read in the book.

More of the same is to apply to your particular stitch. It could be applied to your pouting. It is not a solution that worked well in the past. To continue displaying that behavior whenever you didn't get things the way you wanted.....would be kind of crazy, right? I mean, in the past it may have served as manipulation, but if you continued with more of the same, how far do you think it would carry you? Instead of doing more of the old behaviors, try something different next time and see if that is a better solution.
emotionally rough morning.
So besides learning how to detach you have to learn one other real skill:

ignoring your own fabricated arguments.

I was caught in this swirl, absolutely because of stress of telling her parents in two days. Its just going to wreck everything..for us...kids...i know i know it will just be different.kept having to turn off my thoughts where I wanted to accuse her of wrecking everything, that its better for kids to have a parent die than go through divorce...why are you giving up on us WAW when only you win and everyone else loses.....plead plead, whine, accuse.
Ok enough of that foolishness. Gonna keep at my LRT and get some housecleaning done, look after my sick D8 and play with S3 D5. Research some new GAL activities like gardening. my wife always complained I never shared this passion of hers so I am now gonna see what all the fuss is about (know its theraputic). I am planning on growing her some flowers and giving them to her when the R gets better...and thats gonna take a long time. oh and its sunday so a couple more prayers get to hit the sky over this whole SITCH. Any other suggestions to help me break these annoying fabricated arguments?
oh and another thing. What is up with "Divorce Parties"?!?!
My WAW went to one last year and gleefully made a red jello molded heart she had a plastic knife sticking out of....maybe foretelling our present awful sitch.

I am hoping culture catches on to a term we can coin here called the"Hallelujah Divorce busted and happily reconciled party" a little wordy but it will do!
Hey if you are in LRT and WAW starts warmin up to you do you talk about relationship now (trying to avoid our separation in 3 weeks) or still be a little coy? Thanks
Ray,

Originally Posted By: rayzzz
Hey if you are in LRT and WAW starts warmin up to you do you talk about relationship now (trying to avoid our separation in 3 weeks) or still be a little coy? Thanks


Nope. Zip it. Listen to W and validate when appropriate.

If and when W does start to warm up, keep things light and breezy. You don't wanna get into heavy subjects and scare her off, right?
Thanks Wonka. I am usually talkative so my 180 has me speaking in three word sentences for the past week (try something different)
So yeah I will restrain myself and validate & be breezy.
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my wife always complained I never shared this passion of hers so I am now gonna see what all the fuss is about (know its theraputic). I am planning on growing her some flowers and giving them to her when the R gets better...and thats gonna take a long time.


Ray, getting a life is for you. Don't make it about her. You are totally focused on her in the above example of what you want as GAL. I can promise you one thing, you will not get any brownie points with her. In fact, she is going to be PO that you chose to get involved in gardening now.

Isn't there something you would like to do that you've not done in a long time? Get a hobby that you're interested in, before spending a lot of money of something that is not your passion. And....gardening is expensive and hard work. This is something your W wanted the two of you to share back when things were not on the brink of D. This will only provoke her.

And about the W warming up to you....no it is not a green light to to start talking about the R, or to make a move, or to think things are getting better. I couldn't even smile at my H without him thinking, "Yes! We're reconciled!" smirk

If she warms up, just give her time b/c it will change again. frown
saw the power position Amy Cuddy Ted Talk. great applicable stuff. thanks!
Thanks Sandi. Never thought of that with the flowers. makes sense it is another "look at me, look at me..I'm winning you back" pursuing no no.
She texted me a few times and even a photo of her nature walk "I needed to take a stress day (because of our painful sitch WAW said...obviously)..its such a hard time for me..." exactly like the WAW script right Sandi? Wanting me to support her in this? yeah right. I did respond with only "K" "see ya later" which must have thrown her off as I am quite words (as you can tell :P )
Tomorrow we share with inLaws so I am self managing my stress levels now and putting together a post "look after me" plan so I only lose it when I am by myself away from that conversation.

Today I feel like crying and almost dying...its just so hard this love that won't let go of my heart...like its stretching itself thin so I can't breath some days..like today.
Well I am going to throw myself into homeschooling my daughter (last month yay!) and then get out in the sun with kiddies.
GAL? well I used to write creative fiction at Univ but its been years since I have done anything like that so I am going to get my mind working on that after a 12 year absence. Puls ultimate frisbee & qigong which i just GALed for the first time last week. SO glad for the support here just helps this aching heart heal a bit faster and take some shallow breaths....gonna make it
Ray,

Originally Posted By: rayzzz
She texted me a few times and even a photo of her nature walk "I needed to take a stress day (because of our painful sitch WAW said...obviously)..its such a hard time for me..." exactly like the WAW script right Sandi? Wanting me to support her in this? yeah right. I did respond with only "K" "see ya later" which must have thrown her off as I am quite words (as you can tell :P )


A good validation is mirroring back what they say...for example, "I am sure this is a hard time for you...I am glad you're out for a walk. Good for you!"

No injecting yourself in the process or injecting your thoughts. Just neutral. See? That is what validation is all about.

Tomorrow we share with inLaws so I am self managing my stress levels now and putting together a post "look after me" plan so I only lose it when I am by myself away from that conversation.

What are your thoughts? What do you plan to say to the ILs? You need to think this one out before you meet with them.

How do you plan to get yourself centered before the meeting?
Thanks Wonka. That validation would have been pure Genius. will try this again.
Was gonna ask you DBers...I planned on just being quiet and letting her speak and interjecting "This is not what I want" only if asked. DIdnt want to appear combative or trying to triangle against WAW. would get whole family reactive for sure.

I wondered; should I just be quiet and empathetic without crying or a little upbeat?...naw upbeat means i am happy this is going through.

Gonna meditate, pray and say in mantra "This is how she feels now, but this isnt over yet....believe nothing and half of what she says..." do i validate in front of parents or does that look like i am agreeing "your D has had to put up with alot" and add "but i am changing?" needy?
I think you have dreaded telling the parents for so long it almost has you in panick mode. Maybe you should not worry what you'll say. She needs to tell them in front of you. If she makes it sound as if it's what both of you want, or that both of you have agreed, then you need to tell them it isn't what you want, etc. I don't think you should leave with them thinking you are supporting the idea of D.

Stop worrying about what kind of emotion to show or not show. Be yourself and be truthful. It is a sad occasion.
Shoot! I think I backslid myself then. When I replied to one of my WAW's emails in reference to her telling me how her anxiety is horrible, how she'd been crying, trying to figure out how to be and who she is...I replied with "I'm sorry you're having a hard time right now, I am as well as you can imagine, it's just something we have to get through together, our last challenge together to overcome."

Now after reading about validation, I am thinking I should've just said..."I'm sorry you're having a hard time right now, it's a challenge." Did I mess up big time here with what I wrote?
No you didn't.
Thanks Sandi! I'll have to watch myself there.
Journaling:

some thoughts about our impending separation:

What if during this time apart my WAW realizes that some of the issues had nothing really to do with me? Of course I absolutely own all of my mistakes, but all of us have our own issues to work through

and along those lines...

Sure it will be a good time for her to realize all the great times we have had together and how good we are together. So I see how creating a space for your WAS to miss you and be reflective would help.

For today I have a job interview (yes! need to get ready to rebuild and put some new money habits in place) and a house to put in order. With me being a 3/4SAD I have the lions share of work to do. Then its out for a GAL, taking my kids to the park and then ice cream and then a good time in prayer asking for peace and strength and wisdom to be loving, kind and respectful as we finally disclose to her parents tonight. Already have my best friend/my mentor and atrained family therapist to debrief after this is over. He has been a lifeline speaking at our marriage 13 years ago and still believes we can work it out
"I've seen it dozens of times where what was over, wasnt over but renewed". he and this db community is huge. ok so on with my day
Help please,

Moving some stuff Friday to my new place..separation starting

how do i 180? do I act super happy about starting a "new life"?!?!
Originally Posted By: rayzzz
Journaling:

some thoughts about our impending separation:

What if during this time apart my WAW realizes that some of the issues had nothing really to do with me? Of course I absolutely own all of my mistakes, but all of us have our own issues to work through

** She will at some point. You may never know if she does admit these. In my sitch, I have a "contact" that my W confided her faults in our M to. It doesn't change anything until your W, WANTS, to come back.

and along those lines...

Sure it will be a good time for her to realize all the great times we have had together and how good we are together. So I see how creating a space for your WAS to miss you and be reflective would help.

** This will not be overnight. I'd recommend focusing your energy on YOU right now. Let your W worry about being herself for now.

For today I have a job interview (yes! need to get ready to rebuild and put some new money habits in place) and a house to put in order. With me being a 3/4SAD I have the lions share of work to do. Then its out for a GAL, taking my kids to the park and then ice cream and then a good time in prayer asking for peace and strength and wisdom to be loving, kind and respectful as we finally disclose to her parents tonight. Already have my best friend/my mentor and a trained family therapist to debrief after this is over. He has been a lifeline speaking at our marriage 13 years ago and still believes we can work it out "I've seen it dozens of times where what was over, wasnt over but renewed". he and this db community is huge. ok so on with my day


**I'm in the same boat Ray, I'd love for my W to "wake up" and come back and work on this... Its not realistic. WAWs are on their own timeline, you can't and should not force anything. Just let them be, focus on being the attractive man she married. YOU will do fine, if she wants to come back its your choice to let her in.
Thanks Riley.
You can never hear that enough at least I can't. Work on yourself you can't change how she feels. I come here to get slapp back into reality. You are right, I am "faking it till I become it" but I still feel like my smile is plastic....takes so much energy just to be upbeat around WAW and kids who are still clueless ...

So we told her parents about our separation tonight and as soon as WAW said "I believe our separation is going to be permanent " the wind blew out of my inLaws sails. I tried to add "This is not what I want" and then before I could help myself tried to get an assurance "who knows maybe in 3, 6 or 9months feelings will change. I don't want this separation to be permanent"
cue eyes rolling

Then my FiL just started making plans on where the kids will sleep when my WAW moves in and how they will help look after them.....

man. I am sure they saw this coming with how I wasn't pulling my weight around with providing for my family so inconsistently.

Oh well, you're right Sandi they just backed up their daughter.

Mind ya I did great tonight. spoke only a few words here and then, bit my tongue for the most part and only slipped in a jab here and there .I wish i didnt but they were minor infractions during a super hard sad time so I am gonna go easy on myself.

I know this 180 and "do something different" is completely freaking her out because I am usually the chatterbox and tonight, on such a stressful night, I just let her initiate conversations draw answers out from me...just the one sentence ones.

She just left to her friends house for the night, wanted to debrief how everything went and I just put on my plastic smile and said "well like you said it is what it is( our disclosing talk)" She was super frustrated then and I didnt mean to push her buttons, I was just trying to be thoughtful and not freak out and be loud like I usually am. She left very grumpy and when she said she wasn't doing well I practiced my validation : "That was pretty hard on you. yeah me too"

ok so I am testing my blackout curtains to go midnight dark in the next couple weeks when I move out end of June. I love her so, but pulling back is changing alot of our dynamics and now our relationship is on a different script. scary but amusing and encouraging at the same time. Ok off to debrief with my counsellor friend now.
More detaching this early early morning. Sleep? What's that?
Finally took my WAW photo off my iPhone lock screen.
Realized I don't need a picture to keeping reminding me of my strong feelings for her and the hurt that's there because of this breakdown.
Now I just have to stop snooping on her Facebook page.
Guess the ultimate 180 would be showing her I really am moving on by unfriending her.

Thoughts?

She did take her married status off a while ago.
Gotta shake my head
and start thinking about my "north stars " my kids and serving their interests above my own. ..getting out of this swirl of sadness.
This really is the best thing that's ever happened to me. I know that sounds so contradictory but I just hear my heart/spirit just say that so loud at times and I am grateful for this "gift" of insight. I get to work on stuff I have been running from for years: being immature, selfish , not being a consistent hard worker letting my wife take care of me and not caring about myself really.
The honest truth is I wouldn't want either of my girls to marry anyone like the old me. And I am their first model of how a man should treat them. With God's help I will be the full man I was designed to be. And also to lay down a strong road and example to my S on how to live well and with character.
So yeah it's going to be a bit easier to ramp up my GALing a bit more and be a lot more exhuberhant because there is still a lot to live for and if she catches wind of me.....she can follow me at a distance for this next while.
My WAW took her married status off Facebook too, I'd consider it normal WAW behavior. She even changed her name back... normal. You have to expect that they think right now you are the devil. And just let it be, when they cool off they will know the consequences of their actions.

Just remember; when it comes time to get your licks in after doing DB for 4 months to NOT expel your anger/resentment on your WAW.

Be you Ray, and the rest of your life will line up as it should.
Ray,

Why are you trying to "show" W that you're moving on by unfriending her on FB? That is not the way to go about it...tit for tat.

Whatcha gonna do for GAL?
Good point.
Going out for ultimate frisbee tonight after work with a league i just joined a couple weeks ago. Then I have Qigong, kareoke, connecting with some old friends and kids and I have been exploring a new city park every day...especially when I need to get away and detach. I'm also picking off where my BA in creative writing left me years ago and re-working some stories/novels to one day publish....get my mind off obsessing sitch. So hard though and I just hate it when you tell people (everyone will ask how the talk went last night with inLawss) you are trying to save the marriage and they give that insincere pat on the back with a "good luck with a doomed cause" look...ah well learning to just keep my yap shut and come here.
So yeah that whisper you just heard is me whispering "I love you" to the empty side of our bed (WAW is out tonight)...man that feels good and I try not to crack too often but in between detaching I just need a breather!
Today went well, was out for my p/t work for most of the day, came back played some video games and watched tv with kids and read them to sleep. I also did some research on validating as my "systems based practice" (see Jamesclear.com, fancy word for habits & goals) is to:
-give her space
-validate her feelings
-GAL like crazy
-180 in my new quiet calm attitude (usually type A super loud and exuberant) getting hold of my grumpy nature and changing it.

so here's what I found if you su$k at validating like I do (maybe most men? :P)

This is an excerpt from pages 103-104 from my book When Hope is Not Enough: a how-to guide for living with and loving someone with Borderline Personality Disorder. This excerpt comes from my (long) discussion of validation and how and why to do it. In the book, I outline a six step process to validation. This is a part of “Step 3: Making a Validating Statement”:
Examples of validating statements:
- That must have made you feel really angry.
- What a frustrating situation to be in!
- It must make you feel angry to have someone do that.
- That’s so difficult for you.
- Wow, how hard that must be.
- That’s stinks!
- That’s messed up! (or stronger language if you are so inclined)
- How frustrating!
- Yeah, I can see how that might make you feel really sad.
- Boy, you must be angry.
- What a horrible feeling.
- What a tough spot.
- That must be really discouraging.
- I bet you feel disappointed.
- Rats, I know how much that meant to you.
- That’s so painful for you.
- Tell me more. (shows interest)
- Wow, she must have made you really angry.
And, of course, many, many more. If you want a validating statement to feel “true” make it about the truth of the situation for the other person. That truth is the way they feel about the event.

So there you go DBers have at it and use it to win back the WAS!

all in all a good day. Reminding myself to be slow and steady and patient in love....
Ray,

While what you posted is great information, the goal should not be solely to "win back the WAS." The LBS can only focus on improving themselves and validating emotions is absolutely essential for intimate communications.

Great information! I do plan to incorporate some of these into my future communcations with my WAW. I was supposed to meet her today to talk over finances, however she was not feeling well after her dental appointment. We have rescheduled to this Friday....appreciate the help friend smile
Thanks Riley for the reality check. for me, change is for me....

Today was a good day, but I have a 180 question...I wonder if I have pioneered the FB 180?

I have been posting how great I feel and all the new GAL experiences I am having..like this fb post:

"Today is a day I wouldn't change. Smiles were there, curiosity, laughter, reflection and that deep knowing that life is so worth living and sharing. Its an adventure to live. Go and do likewise!"

She lurkes on fb so its a little indiscreet cause everybody thinks I am having good days! Now validation may be a bit harder on social media lol.
OK so I am in sad missing mode right now. My WAW. I did a great job of being upbeat and letting her know the kids and I had a great day...but inside you'd think she could hear my heart shattering to pieces.
We did homebirths for all three of our kids and I am just so astounded that I was there pushing on her back, comforting, sharing the first cries of each child...and now she is "so done. Too little too late. i would've left ages ago if it wasnt for the kids" man. Its like her cup is broken on the bottom so any love i try to give her keeps pouring out but the hope is that my DBs change me and then the water would be like good old molasses or honey and stay in that cup someday. But she said she was "infuriated" with me last month....so she has levels of anger she is going to have to let go and that is gonna take a long time...patience..patience
Well onto GALing tomorrow; shopping for kids AND me (first in awhile), doing a picnic with kids in an unexplored park and then out to a movie with an old friend. Starting an acoustic jam night with a few musician friends, take up fly fishing again and see what I can sign up for at the Continuing Ed college and saving for a tattoo I have always wanted but didnt have the guts to do. bring it!
In my spirit I always hear "This is the best thing thats ever going to happen to me" and when I get past the pain and believe it I know it is. I am not ever going to be the man I was. I am working hard on the way better man I am becoming with or without her.
Originally Posted By: rayzzz
Its like her cup is broken on the bottom so any love i try to give her keeps pouring out but the hope is that my DBs change me and then the water would be like good old molasses or honey and stay in that cup someday. But she said she was "infuriated" with me last month....so she has levels of anger she is going to have to let go and that is gonna take a long time...patience..patience


Yep, my wife is the same way. So much anger and resentment. Unfortunately it is one of the pieces in this that we can do nothing about. It just has to run its course. You seem to be well-aware of this though, so good on you!

Originally Posted By: rayzzz
Well onto GALing tomorrow; shopping for kids AND me (first in awhile), doing a picnic with kids in an unexplored park and then out to a movie with an old friend. Starting an acoustic jam night with a few musician friends, take up fly fishing again and see what I can sign up for at the Continuing Ed college and saving for a tattoo I have always wanted but didnt have the guts to do. bring it! In my spirit I always hear "This is the best thing thats ever going to happen to me" and when I get past the pain and believe it I know it is. I am not ever going to be the man I was. I am working hard on the way better man I am becoming with or without her.


Sounds like you're doing really well with GAL. Keep it up! Just keep reminding yourself of that silver lining--of course all of this will hopefully save your marriage, but if it doesn't you will be able to hold your head up high and know that you haven't wasted the opportunity to become a better person. Pulling for you man.
Thanks Stump, thats encouraging.
Thats crazy that your story mirrors mine, even age. She was pushing that seven year age difference was catching up to our interests and likes but she is going thru MLC going FT from SAM with kids. lost 60lbs, looks super hot like she was the 21 yr old girl I married.

Originally Posted By: stumps
Yep, my wife is the same way. So much anger and resentment. Unfortunately it is one of the pieces in this that we can do nothing about. It just has to run its course. You seem to be well-aware of this though, so good on you!


With all the rage and anger my IC said that no one can keep that up for long ..its exhausting...and it hides layers of deep profound sorrow. SO the best thing for is to get out of the way and go dim...think seeing me triggers a bullseye for her to hate. a little validation here is good too, but i try not to go overboard. you are right...we can do nothing so detach.

And I just cant shake that heart ache that hits me this morning though...ah well detach and GAL again...our buffers to pain. Ok rock it out Stumps and even in this terrible situation I am glad you are in the trenches battling with me. I am going to rescue my beauty...but it seems I have to go through the backdoor and be quiet about it.
oh Stump, my D8...how did your kids handle telling them about separation? We tell them after Father's Day...argh
Originally Posted By: rayzzz
oh Stump, my D8...how did your kids handle telling them about separation? We tell them after Father's Day...argh


We still haven't told them. I'm in no rush, and W doesn't want to tell them until her move-out plans are firm, and since she still hasn't told me what those plans are, we haven't set any date for discussing it with the kids, or what exactly we're going to say.

What's worse I think is that because W and I get along so well, and still do so much together, the kids have NO idea of what is potentially coming. W hid her feelings so well that the kids never witnessed any fighting or slow breakdown of the marriage or estrangement or anything like that. It is SO weird...from the outside you would think we were the happiest couple in the world. I never want to get my hopes up... but I am hoping that it's just one more thing that counts in my favor.
So here's the beginning of my weekend.
Have decided to blow our kids lives apart and give them a traumatic day they will never forget on Tuesday. Way better than the original idea--Father's Day....that would has ruined me even more.
My LRT seemed to be mirrored by WAW today she kept smiling and wishing me a good day. A small step that "showed me things are improving" is that she offered and did run to the cafe and buy me a latte. She did preface it with "just so you know this is a gesture of goodwill nothing more" but I'll take it!
I acted all casual and just gave a look in the eye and said a deep thanks and then kept putting away clothes.
Whatever she said I know she softened then. Nice.
And I know kids are resilient but seems so final now the road to divorce. We has no house together so moving into two separate new places it's hard to no be pessimistic . Don't believe what she says or does....detach. Ah well. Off to GAL at a festival I am playing at (I am a musician)
And then the gym.
Hey Stumpy just forgot to mention another similarity that our kids don't have a clue either about what is going to happen on Tuesday----our separation disclosure .
My D8 knows we take turns in the house with them as one of us "stays over at a friends" but everyone thinks we are a great normal happy couple too. This is killing me and my anxiety is thru the roof. When my D8 asks "but you are going to get back together" I want to scream of course it is a temporary but my wife wants to make sure the kids don't have the hope that we are "ever going to get back together". Well I am ready to put my bravest, Daddy confident game face when we present and we'll see what happens later. Love my kids and I hope to get their mommy To come back and join us as a family
hey you with broken hearts longing for the return of your beloved! Go to the gym. Seriously.
Yesterday was my first "ok here comes single Dadhood" and I had no friends and nothing to do by myself...so after digging myself out of undetachment and pining away for WAS i decided to go to the gym. Hit every piece of equipment there and the bikes three times and felt really good. That is my LRG "Last Resort GAL place" if I wind up starting to feel lonely and weak for WAW.
Today was good. I shook off the thoughts where you fantasize you are back together again and as detachment took hold had a good time at church with kids (communion always helps me to not focus my thoughts so inward too). ok now I am GALing it with the lawn mower and an overgrown back yard. Though for the day " I am doing myself and her a favour by leaving her alone..I am enough for me"
180 Review!
So I am in step 5" Experiment & Monitor Results"
I have been 180ing by being:
-quiet instead of my normal yappy self
-not telling about my outings
-not asking her about where she has been
-going dim-no contact/text/phone unless its essential for scheduling with kids
-doing stuff without manipulation, grandstanding, ego stroking "hey look who just fixed the sink" ...again just doing it quietly and out of necessity not praise
...
The results (after 3 weeks)
-she has been thinking I am mad at her because I have been quiet the last few weeks...
-she just stopped sharing her outings with me too. and she stopped asking about my outings too?!?! like she is 180ing me. And this is more her character anyways...she is a deep thinker and shares very thoughtfully
Oh well tough beans. Think I just stubbornly persist and see if she breaks
-same with no texting/contact! A couple days after I stopped pursing her she stopped as well. Nada. Feels like she is thrilled I am finally backing off and she doesnt have to waste time with me. so not a text unless its scheduling/kids

I am a little down right now. The fine line here is my 180 is not gifts or romantic gestures but just not being lazy and doing stuff that needs to be done. I mowed the lawn today. normally I would let her know "I did it" like I needed a badge or something, but now I just do stuff without saying a word. Thats what real men do..get er done.

So any thoughts? maybe i just need to keep sticking with it. We move out to our separate homes in 2 weeks....
Hey peeps,

Here's some reflection and journaling...
I think I know how I can work on the character issues that need to be transformed in me to help me be happy and see how it impacts others. My personal goals:

-To work hard! Be a hard worker, not lazy in everything...even cleaning dishes etc..
-To be gentle in words and action...have a tendency to be loud and be impatient. Great verse in Bible "Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them." stop being harsh work on anger...just grew up screaming as communication
-To be mindful and look after what's mine; family, job, ..
-To alway look beyond: have a vision and direction to a destination

re: Sexual Detachment

This next part is mostly for the guys only and I have not seen this addressed on any threads:

If you are masturbating and thinking about your wife STOP IT.
You are deceiving yourself into thinking she loves you and you are reconciled when it ain't the truth unless you are actually having sex with her!! Detachment becomes ten times harder because we connect thru sex...even pretend sex. Fantasizing is wrong too, but if its just in your head you can break those thoughts easier.
I know because this vice has set me back from the advances I was making detaching.... so cut. it. out.

Am I right?
I like what you have to say here rayzzz. Sounds like you're on the right path. Keep it up!
Originally Posted By: rayzzz
Hey peeps,

If you are masturbating and thinking about your wife STOP IT.
You are deceiving yourself into thinking she loves you and you are reconciled when it ain't the truth unless you are actually having sex with her!! Detachment becomes ten times harder because we connect thru sex...even pretend sex. Fantasizing is wrong too, but if its just in your head you can break those thoughts easier.
I know because this vice has set me back from the advances I was making detaching.... so cut. it. out.

Am I right?


I seem to have an issue with this too. Its very hard not to do so when thats really all you want. Thought i was doing myself a favor by not looking at porn. I guess not though.
Yikes.

But yes.

Bonding chemicals are released. An attachment is formed to a person, porn, an act... all good in a good relationship, but all bad when the attachment is harmful.

And....now I'm stepping out of this one...
Thanks stump, ben

Ben I hear ya. I gave up porn too and its basically a coward's way to intimacy. Its easy to delude yourself into thinking you can have any woman you want without having to engage with them.. Unrealistic and meaningless .This hurt my marriage too cause WAW felt she couldnt compete with the models etc...
I miss the sex, but near the end WAW did it without emotion and I just felt used...sharing in her joys and heartache made being with her that much richer. Its gonna be a long battle but I am not giving up.
Yeah the porn thing had the same effect on my W. It seemed to really lower her self esteem. I didnt know that it was that big of an issue or I would have gotten some help with it sooner. Im finding it hard to not look at it now because im lonely without the W. Still have not looked at it since she left though. Doing ok with it. Unless you count pics of your W as porn too.
so here's what happened yesterday:

Talking about separation to kids

WAW & I had a little meeting just before telling the kids about our separation. We went through some of our script and then she asked me "So where are things between us?" and for the first time I held my db cool and said "I'm just just doing alot of thinking about us right now and dont really feel comfortable giving you an answer". She pressed a bit more and then retreated into saying that its better for us, she thinks if we just stay "partners, co partners/friends" because its just to hard on her, all of this "swirl" of emotions she feels about us. and then we worked on the sample kids question if they ask "So are we getting a divorce?" and she said both times in practice and in our real talk: "We are just separating for now" and then D6 asked "So are we ever going to live together in the same house?"
and WAW answered "I don't know". WINNING! I found out later that she skyped a good friend of ours(her bridesmaid) and talked with her for two hours yesterday....think WAW may have finally got a good perspective from someone who was not one of her D friends.

So gonna take a deep breath but my LRT and 180s are giving me a little bit of light to slowly and steadily march towards.

Now here's the script we used:

We were both very strong and calm and empathized with sadness but did not break...a little misty eyed but lots of just being fully present in love. We both told them at noon and took the rest of the day off so we could be there for them...having a junkfoodfest and watching family movies...something we haven't done in months....ok here we go

"We are a family...sometimes families live in two different houses. Daddy and Mommy will always be your parents and we love each other. We will still get together for some special times (we will still go to ballet,church..)but we have big problems that we need to work on separately, so that is why we are separating.
(me) I love mommy more than anyone else in the world and I promise I will be a better daddy to mommy and a better friend to mommy
(WAW) In order to save our friendship and because it is best for us and will help us love each other more...these are the reasons we are separating"

Now my kids have a degree of peace on them everyone has been praying on and comment on all the time. I expected more of a freak out. There were tears but the loudest my S4 who did not want to move from this house! D6 (the quietest) cried "Does that mean we will have no more Daddy dates?(kids &WAW moving in with parents) D6 was the one who asked us about if we were going to live together again....and my sweet little trooper D8...she just knew this was the elephant in the room since WAW and I have been avoiding each other for three months...I know she was crushed but also relieved...just cried softly and after some hugs twice said the most profound things to me (totally did not share this with WAW cause it may reinforce D)

"Dad, I'm glad you made the right decision for you and mom"
"Dad I think you and mom are making the right choice for us"

Dumbstruck. she is just so trusting in us...but I know the reality will really hit as we move and loss will set in but such wisdom from my little girl.

My family therapist friend i debriefed with encouraged me that modeling peace in conflict and being calm and cool in challenges paves the way for your children to live that way as well, making big deposits of healthy character. PTL so blessed that bringing healthy to myself will really spill over to my kids and every aspect of life. I will hide this away in hard times, with WAW and other challenges.

For me, I am out to a board meeting (its volunteer with new friends so I consider it a GAL) some job hunting and maybe some outside playground time with kids.
So should i be worried that because my kids have taken this pretty well that my WAW will think D is a good idea then?
Ray,

You too? MDU, you, and Thorn are all drinking from the same stinkin' thinkin' cooler today. Time to break up and step away from the cooler. Doncha have some GALing to do??

Ugh.

My kids took it well at first too. Then H left on a series of business trips and it's been sinking in on them ever since. He's astounded they care, or are reacting to it -- what little he knows, since he can't SEE it for himself and only hears about it when I think of an action he can take to help them.

Oh, and his mother told him they would be happier when they saw him happier. Never mind that she's still married to his dad.

I've come to realize I don't want my H to stick around for the kids. I want him to be here because I'm so awesome. That should be what you want for your kids, too. If your wife sticks around (or doesn't) because of how the kids see things, then they aren't seeing the kind of relationship you want for their futures.

(Sorry if my tone is a little belligerent... It's that kind of day...)
Originally Posted By: Wonka
Ray,

You too? MDU, you, and Thorn are all drinking from the same stinkin' thinkin' cooler today. Time to break up and step away from the cooler. Doncha have some GALing to do??

Ugh.



doh! Thanks Wonka! Maybe for a GAL I should buy you a beer...but you gotta come to Canada. STupi attachment...DEtach....
Originally Posted By: Maybell


I've come to realize I don't want my H to stick around for the kids. I want him to be here because I'm so awesome. That should be what you want for your kids, too. If your wife sticks around (or doesn't) because of how the kids see things, then they aren't seeing the kind of relationship you want for their futures.

(Sorry if my tone is a little belligerent... It's that kind of day...)


Hey Maybell, the tone is excused (think its a db dialect I speak in often too). and you are right and encouraging...us LBS are fine catches.Your H is freaking blind to resist you.

Sure my kids will go through their process and it wont be fun for me to see either but gonna cover them with as much of my father's love as I can ...hard hard times but I am GALing out to a favorite coffee shop and re-aquainted friends tonight.
Quote:
I know this 180 and "do something different" is completely freaking her out because I am usually the chatterbox and tonight, on such a stressful night, I just let her initiate conversations draw answers out from me...just the one sentence ones.


It probably has her puzzled, but you are doing very well. If you have always been rather loud and too talkative, I believe you absolutely should have her pry anything out of you.

Quote:
Its like her cup is broken on the bottom so any love i try to give her keeps pouring out but the hope is that my DBs change me and then the water would be like good old molasses or honey and stay in that cup someday.


Very true. And while the DB board does not permit us to recommend other books (generally), the 5LL is one they don't seem to mind. But when you have a WAW, she is not going to want any love from you in any of those languages. The book is informative and you can practice on others, but I would not say it will help at this time, b/c of the condition of her heart. She has closed her heart to you. But one day, hopefully, you will have an opportunity to use the information you are storing now.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
[quote] but I would not say it will help at this time, b/c of the condition of her heart. She has closed her heart to you. But one day, hopefully, you will have an opportunity to use the information you are storing now.


OUCH. That is hard to hear Sandi but it is the truth for now. Nothing to do but GAL, get busy and wait!
Originally Posted By: rayzzz
So should i be worried that because my kids have taken this pretty well that my WAW will think D is a good idea then?


Think about this^^ question. It implies that the kids being miserable & traumatized might somehow be good for, or benefit...whom? YOU??

But I doubt that. I think you'd be more miserable b/c you'd see your kids in pain.

Outside of abusive situations, NO KID WANTS THEIR PARENTS TO DIVORCE.

Period. Your kids will say things to her that they do not say to you. And visa versa. They are on their best behavior right now but that may well change. (Get ready for that).

But your w will know that they are not happy about it, in time. I can't say when.

Meanwhile, contrast the negative images your w has of you (which she used to justify leaving)

with the NEW YOU
.

So if/when she says "h was not pulling his weight and we had financial stresses..."

& IF you are now working f/t and making decent money...what's she going to say then??

If she sees you are in good physical shape, it makes the "lazy bum h" arguments that much weaker.

CONTRAST her negatives (& the ones you also have of your old self) with the New Positives you are creating.

Few women and almost no mother, is going to refuse to review her choice to leave, if the choice's basis is undermined by a new reality.

Make sense? So go make that new reality. For YOU, and whoever else benefits...
25, thanks for pushing me more towards transformation. I like the idea of contrasting before and after. I am going to be blinding white in comparison to the dark I was before.
My D8 said "Dad I'm glad you are making the right choice for you and mom" with her brave little voice trying not to take responsibility for this S....just broke me seeing her try to be so strong and you are right. All my kids are hurting and it will express itself over the grieving process. Will love them best as we can.
Going to GAL it up with a Christian friendship group going bowling. I like it but they may wish I never played on their team. ;D
Having a hard time not picking up the phone and ruining her day by yelling at her all the reasons its her fault this isnt working out either and how she is wrecking our family, the kids and why doesnt she just grab some common sense so we can work it out.

Blah! Ok now that that's out of my system I am trying not to think of my last two weeks at the same house with the kids. We are gonna go out and GAL as a family...hit some new parks, grab a movie, go out for dinner and have the best "Father's Day" today as we can.

No expectations. Detach. Work on me. Can't control how she feels. Go dark. LRT. 180 the h+ll out of my life.

ok battling on...
You can't use logic with illogical people.
Sandi's right. I had the same feelings until I realized that talking WAW into trying to work things out when she wasn't ready would only lead to the same situation somewhere down the line. You have to realize that your best shot will come when she is ready to give 100% on her timeline.
So just had a great IC and I just love my C. She encouraged me to stay dark and detach but make sure I was grieving all this to...the loss right now of my WAW and imploding marriage. Think thats a fine line right? I just make sure I spend just a set time of moaning and bawling like an idiot and after that half hour is up I am good to go. Does make detaching a bit easier at least thats what I feel.
Also I am really sad this is my last two weeks under the same roof as a family before we separate and move out of our rental. Trying not to break when I think of not seeing my kids in the morning anymore, at least for a couple days... but I guess skype will be ok
I also realize that though I want a full reconcilliation, there is nothing for my WAW to come back to and we dont have anything to rebuild with right now..
She is furious with me for not anticipating her needs, emotionally, financially. Best I stay dark so she can process all this cause she has a part to play in this as well.
Also I need to build up my job so I am back to my full time days with a wad of cash to show her I am still a provider.

ok here's where I need some help.

I have been 180ing being quiet and thoughtful in my words instead of my old jokey self that she says doesnt take anything seriously. I do try to act upbeat but she probrably sees me faking it while I am trying to make it! She has asked me several times if I am mad at her and I have to reassure her that I am not...just don't feel so jokey all the time. I guess this is normal right? I am changing the tango so she has to dance differently.

Also in going dark: I stopped texting her pics of the kids when they were doing something cute during the day (we always did this) and now she doesnt text me at all unless its the kids.....kinda feel like she is on to the DB and she is giving me a taste of my own db medicine...am I just paranoid? sigh. Probrably just got to ride this out...i know no expectations...
Sandi's 37 rules should be a flashing banner on each page of this forum (you are awesome Sandi!)

Tomorrow I am going to GAL with some friends for lunch, play my new musical GAL Bass guitar at church and then break open my calligraphy set...yeah its the game of thrones thing and its cheap to do;D
Originally Posted By: rayzzz

Also in going dark: I stopped texting her pics of the kids when they were doing something cute during the day (we always did this) and now she doesnt text me at all unless its the kids.....kinda feel like she is on to the DB and she is giving me a taste of my own db medicine...am I just paranoid? sigh. Probrably just got to ride this out...i know no expectations...


Go read my thread a few postings back. sandi posted a really thoughtful and helpful response to nearly my exact question. It will help calm your nerves on this.
Hey folks. Had a Happy Father's Day today. Just hung out with kids that were extra nice and polite to their old man and got a couple friendly text wishes from my WAW.
For the most part my heart was doing pretty good, just fell into that tsunami of missing her just before the end of the evening but pulled out of the vortex with my trusty "detachment" tether line and my wordless longings for her...man I miss her like mad somedays..usually everyday. ok so no GALing today just our usual park run and we brought a friend of my D8 who's Dad ran away...she is a sweet kid and is now unofficaially part of our family. But on the topic of GAL I am going to pursue boxing! yeah it will be great for aggression for sure and my heart.
So this is something I should get used to but today after a few weeks of being somewhat dark and GALing it we have a phone conversation. Just normal chit chat stuff when she launches into " Well I dont even know where you are these days!" and I just responded "well I'm just going out, and giving you space" doh! Should not have said the last part and just left it.
anyways conversation got kinda awkward after that and we played a game of "well do you have something to say?" "no, do you?" "no do.." you catch my drift. and I was able to do a db recovery and end the conversation first. Yikes. Best I just keep staying vague even when she hounds me for some private info....this db must be working its magic as being mysterious is scoring some points.
Quote:
I just responded "well I'm just going out, and giving you space" doh! Should not have said the last part and just left it.


You're learning! smile
Thanks Sandi...consequences is a good teacher =D

So I am having a good day but wanted to leave everyone with this from Star Trek

Lt Worf..."worrying about what you cannot control only wastes energy and creates its own enemy."

Isnt that the truth from a klingon? DB away my friends...the transformation of the new you will be a rich reward and bait for your WAS ...or some other beautiful soul
rayzzz boy that Klingon is right..lol I see your DB seems to be working as well...We are all in this together and must help eachother out..good days bad days...we must keep up the good fight..as confusing as it may be..
Not too much to report but on my CBT changing on the inside I am doing the "face it, trace it, replace it" on stupid negative thoughts:

I was lazy but I am lazy no longer
I was irresponsible...but I am now very responsible
I had no ambition...now I am very ambitious
I was loud and insecure...now I am quiet and confident

well thats a start.

As well I am just starting to pack my stuff as I am down to ten days before we vacate this place. Kids are already excited to move in with WAW and Grama & Grampas. ugh.

She asked me how I was doing and said she bawled at IC for an hour yesterday. In in my best DB voice answered "oh pretty good" with a confident & happy tone. In reality I break inside as I box away memories of my family together, photos...blah blah..i know detach...thinking of Larry David from Curb your enthusiasm...that is pretty far from reality ;D

As well my PMA to help keep myself together is now:
" I don't have time for this, I have work to do"...i.e. working on myself instead of letting anxiety rule me...and showing her that confidence. And for GAL I did Qigong again. It rules and just leaves me feeling so good. Tomorrow I am hitting the gym and then hanging out with some new friends downtown like some young college student (havent been in the city much till D day happened) maybe kareoke to sing some songs of angst!
Just a question guys:

Today WAW asked "why do you still wear your wedding ring?"
She sounded annoyed.
I deflected the question and said
"Well it still shows where I am at"
And then she asked if I wanted to talk
And I said "no, I'm still thinking about us and where we are going"

Is wearing my wedding band pursuing ?

If it is I am thinking of wearing it till I move out next Friday just so she doesn't think she "won" and I took it off to concede to her.
Rayzz,

I would wear your wedding ring if that's what you feel is right. It's a personal decision that I wrestled with a lot at the beginning of my stich.

Don't wear it to show her you won, or because you are trying to make a point to her. Let your feelings guide what you do, and whatever you do, if you remove it, make sure you are taking it off because YOU want to, and not because of how she will respond. And don't start taking it on and off. That will show weak boundaries and weakness is not attractive.

Good luck,

Dev
So now I am being too confident.
I decided to just pre book our S4 bday party at this play place and surprise her by taking initiative instead of always asking her what she wanted to do and making it her responsibility.
"So now I don't get a chance to talk about anything at all? Why are you always saying "I'll take care of it"

I answered stupidly "well I thought this is how you wanted to move forward" doh! Pursuing right?

But I have a chance to right this with WAW
So is this validating enough?
"I am just getting things done...sorry you feel I haven't been discussing things with you. You must feel so frustrated. What can I do to help you not feel this way?" Thoughts? Wonka?
Thanks Devesta,
Hey our kids are like the exact same age D8 D6 S3. Next week we begin shuttling them back and forth.ugh

Thats great input. I was taking it on and off but my gut tells me to keep it on whether it bothers her or not. You are right that its really not about her and so for I just said when when asks " well this is where my heart is at" not to elaborate but keep at that answer and go about my business.
Hi rayzzzz...sounds like my waw...she got mad as hell when I planned my D party..dammed if you do...dammed if you don't..so now im laying back and taking the advice od sandi2...be indifferent.
Originally Posted By: oad
Hi rayzzzz...sounds like my waw...she got mad as hell when I planned my D party..dammed if you do...dammed if you don't..so now im laying back and taking the advice od sandi2...be indifferent.


Ain't that the truth! Makes the 180s the WAW are crying for so difficult to do.
If Sandi2 said it , I am gonna try it to. Thx oad (and Sandi!)
Originally Posted By: rayzzz
Thanks Devesta,
Hey our kids are like the exact same age D8 D6 S3. Next week we begin shuttling them back and forth.ugh

Thats great input. I was taking it on and off but my gut tells me to keep it on whether it bothers her or not. You are right that its really not about her and so for I just said when when asks " well this is where my heart is at" not to elaborate but keep at that answer and go about my business.


if it is not about her, why not just say that? I wonder why she bothered mentioning it, unless it annoys her as you said and if so, SHE feels pursued or pressured by it.

"W, I'm not wearing it for you, so you don't have to worry about it", or maybe the truth is, you don't know why you are wearing it...

But have zero expectations of her noticing or commenting if you keep wearing it OR if you take it off. Because like you said, it's not about HER. (assuming that is true.) Remember to CONTRAST the old you with the new you. Undermine her assumptions about you with the new reality of you.

Since you have made a few verbal mistakes that would not happen if you were briefer in your replies, why not pause BEFORE answering her R questions,

and then be very brief and or vague, or redirect the conversation.
?

more later, good luck!
Originally Posted By: rayzzz
So now I am being too confident.
I decided to just pre book our S4 bday party at this play place and surprise her by taking initiative instead of always asking her what she wanted to do and making it her responsibility.
"So now I don't get a chance to talk about anything at all? Why are you always saying "I'll take care of it"

I answered stupidly "well I thought this is how you wanted to move forward" doh! Pursuing right?


you continue to make your choices based on your perception of HER wants.

Don't. Aside from massive mind reading on your part, That's also

NOT detachment; that is tactical strategizing to get her back.

The changes are supposed to be ones YOU want to make for YOU to become the man YOU want to become. So say things like that.

"W, In the past I abdicated too much to you and that was unfair to both of us. So now I'm taking more initiative, but I can see how that might look like taking over.

I'm looking for that fine line between taking more initiative and just 'taking over'. It seems you think I went too far, so thanks for the feedback."

OR words to that effect, if they feel authentic for you.


But I have a chance to right this with WAW
So is this validating enough?

"I am just getting things done...sorry you feel I haven't been discussing things with you.

it's not that she feels you have not been discussing things with her, it's that you HAVE NOT. In other words, her feelings reflect reality, right? IF so, just admit that.



You must feel so frustrated. What can I do to help you not feel this way?"
Thoughts? Wonka?


Just apologize for taking over too much, b/c hey, you are probably all trying to walk a fine line.

Don't act as if she has complained to you about how she feels if she has not. The way I read it, was that She simply asked if she is now being excluded from planning, so address THAT.

IF SHE SAYS she "feels x", then go ahead and validate that you heard her feelings...but don't put words in her mouth. That's not validating. That's mind reading. If you don't know how she feels and if you think you need to know how she feels (but be careful here b/c it's very close to being R talk and at this moment, you need NO more of that)

but when unsure, ask her to "tell" you more about what she's expressing. Ask her to clarify so there is no mind reading.

Also use these last days NOT to mope but to create good memories for the kids...and give her positives to recall,

b/c a bad miserable mopey image of you, is NOT a man she'll miss.

Make sense?
Originally Posted By: Devaste
Rayzz,

I would wear your wedding ring if that's what you feel is right. It's a personal decision that I wrestled with a lot at the beginning of my stich.

Don't wear it to show her you won, or because you are trying to make a point to her. Let your feelings guide what you do, and whatever you do, if you remove it, make sure you are taking it off because YOU want to, and not because of how she will respond.


Hey I bought a new sterling silverband(just a cheap one) cause my current one is falling apart (lost real wedding ring years ago and have been wearing fakes)
and I have decided that it doesnt come off. it hasnt in 14 years and in a way this new one means to me a committment to myself to change me for the better for a real marriage....hopefully with her
Originally Posted By: sandi2
You can't use logic with illogical people.



So true!!!
I totally get where you are with that, Ray. My H didn't want to say anything to my son about living in a separate room, but my son noticed. I finally told him that it was great that we each have our own rooms now. smile
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