living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (4)

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living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (1)

living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (2)

living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (3)

Serendipity...

W met OM yesterday.
She put the "DNA evidence" in a hiding place in the closet last night. I just discovered it and secured it. Legally it can't be used to establish grounds for D with cause, but I can get it tested to determine that it is what it is, and it isn't mine, but it won't come to that.

I can say nothing and let her discover that it is missing, which she may have already, and let her deal with it. That will be the night that she tosses and turns BIG TIME.

OR...

before I discovered this, I was thinking of giving (and reading) her this:

Quote:

I understand that you are angry, and I accept my part in our situation.
We both repressed things and didn't communicate which led to resentment.

There are no easy decisions at this point: we're at a fork in the road.

Reconciliation path
- no going back to what was, that didn't work for us
- we can put everything on the table and try to find a better way forward
- no guaranteed outcome, but a chance if we really do the work
- there are very good programs to help us
- worst case - we try for a year and make no progress.

Other path
- our issues don't get resolved and everyone suffers
- we'll never know if we could have made this better
- our legacy will be that we quit without trying everything we could.

Right now, this is the path we are on.

I love you far too much to settle for only part of you. I need all or nothing.
You won't give me all of you, so I'm letting go.

You can't have both of us.
If you want to change the path we're on, end A then we can move forward. However, I can't wait forever.

This evidence should put a quick halt to any denial of A that happens during that last paragraph.

My live in WAW has taken cake eating to a new level. I think this has been harder than an actual walk out, because at least they have to deal with separation. My W has felt no loss at all.

And yes, I do have a time frame in mind for what I said. If, in the face of evidence, she can't come around by then, then why on earth would I still be here?

Please tell me what I'm not thinking of here, or if there is a way better approach.

She had intercourse with another man today, and you think she's going to respond to your SPEECH???

(((smh)))

You still don't get it, Zew. Me? I'd take her "evidence," and I'd f%#+ with them a bit. Nothing wrong with a little infidelitus interruptus.

Starsky

Starsky,

please say more.

The speech wasn't constructed around the evidence. Nor did I expect a response. I know not to expect to talk her out of anything. Each line of that addresses a specific reason she had for thinking that she was beyond the point of no return. That was the "you are here" and I'm moving on thing, and this is the last you'll hear from me for a while until you figure something out.

Honestly, she doesn't know why I've gone dim in LRT. Even though the thought of me is revolting to her, she is clueless as to why I've been scarce. She seems to have never connected that my actions are related to her A, because she thinks she has pulled it off. If I go dim, she says I'm being mean. If I say good night, she thinks I'm being nice. She's having a freaking A, she has to know that I know, but she thinks I have some kind of mental disorder because I seem to treat her differently from week to week.

And the way I have heard her totally misinterpret what I have said before made me want to be absolutely clear in that note what the options were. And I'm going absolutely dim and stepping out, and here's why, since you never understood why I've been giving you space for the last 5 months. Oh, and by the way, the ball is in your court.

I was overcompensating because I think I have to.

But please, 2x6 me a bunch. It's not like I'm thinking clearly after finding this.

Now, on to the evidence.

Of course, it stops any letter from going anywhere.

I'm going to let her discover its absence. Should cause a bit of a panic, methinks.

Could make for a nice video unwrapping too, alongside a DNA report, sent to a couple of phones. But that would be mean. And counterproductive.

Whatchu got?

Quote:

And I gave her exactly five minutes to decide to tell her parents and our adult children the truth, or I was going to do it for her, and show them my evidence.

Wondering why you wanted her to tell her parents, or was that just the Harley influence?

Quote:

Dear OM, You are just one $200 test away from losing half your net worth.

Fits in 140 characters, too. But that could get me killed.

Zew - I read these last few posts and am kind of in shock. I am assuming you have some used contraceptive that has his 'DNA' on it but I am not really sure what you intend to prove by that.

Sure, you can get it tested and prove that its not yours but you would need a sample taken directly from him to prove that it matches. Do you think he's likely to submit to a DNA test??

And if he does, what does it really do for you? If you present that evidence for any sort of punitive or legal reasons, I imagine he can simply say that there is no proof of where you acquired it - perhaps you dug through his trash can at his home.

A common phrase around here is to always act with dignity, honor and self-respect and I think some of what you have done is borderline. If you want to mess with her a little bit, fine. But take the thing, throw it out and don't ever tell her you found it. To me its a little creepy and even disgusting that you're saving it.

I still think you need to do what Starsky recommended a few posts ago. If she doesn't admit it then fine, there's nothing you can do about it and it really doesn't change anything anyway. You know she's having an affair and she knows she's having an affair. You still have to do all of the same DB techniques whether she admits to it or not - business and kids, ask her to sleep on the couch, etc. I think you need to get tough and if she claims that you're being mean without justification, so be it. She knows the truth and so do you. Sooner or later, she is going to have to face it.

Originally Posted By: zew

Quote:

And I gave her exactly five minutes to decide to tell her parents and our adult children the truth, or I was going to do it for her, and show them my evidence.

Wondering why you wanted her to tell her parents, or was that just the Harley influence?

Because I decided that I was no longer going to be made the liar in all of this (I had told her parents, and our adult children, that she was having an affair). To our children, it was the premise that even if we were to divorce, in order to effective co-parent we could NOT build a family upon DECEIT, and that we had always made TELLING THE TRUTH a must in our family and I wasn't going to change that now. To her parents, I told her that I loved and respected them far too much to lie to them, and I wasn't going to allow HER to lie to them and tell them "Starsky is crazy -- this guy is just a friend . . . Starsky is NUTS!" etc.

Originally Posted By: zew

Honestly, she doesn't know why I've gone dim in LRT. Even though the thought of me is revolting to her, she is clueless as to why I've been scarce. She seems to have never connected that my actions are related to her A, because she thinks she has pulled it off. If I go dim, she says I'm being mean. If I say good night, she thinks I'm being nice. She's having a freaking A, she has to know that I know, but she thinks I have some kind of mental disorder because I seem to treat her differently from week to week.

You are totally confusing me, Zew. Just a couple of posts ago, you told us that you've done the "STOP IT -- we both know you're lying to me right now" thing, and told her that you know she's having an affair. Now you say "she has no idea why I've gone dim," and you cast some doubt as to whether or not you know.

Jeezus, you're making this thing complicated. Give her the "I know all about you and ______, so stop lying to me" speech once and for all if you want, but I'm about 99% sure that she knows that you know and she simply doesn't care right now.

And no holier-than-thou speech from you is going to MAKE her care! You are trying to present a "cure" to someone who doesn't even admit that they are ill, and even if she did, YOU would be the LAST PERSON (in her current frame of mind( that she would want bringing her the antidote.

You continue to try to come up with a way to present you "this is what it would take" dealbreakers, when she hasn't come to you and asked back into the marriage.

Starsky

Dingo - her panties in a plastic bag in her purse beside the hamper in our closet.

Quote:

You are totally confusing me, Zew. Just a couple of posts ago, you told us that you've done the "STOP IT -- we both know you're lying to me right now" thing, and told her that you know she's having an affair. Now you say "she has no idea why I've gone dim,"

It's as if when she denies it, she believes that I don't know.
Then, if I LRT and minimize communication, she thinks I am deranged because I should be behaving as normal. I would have expected that she might associate my behavior with me knowing about the A. Apparently, that's an expectation I shouldn't have. But since W denied A, the only explanation for Zew not following normal routine must be that he's crazy. One more good reason to leave. I'm trying to understand the logic in that which has no logic I guess.

Quote:

Jeezus, you're making this thing complicated

I think it's especially complicated because she lives at home, and it's the perfect setup. And I keep thinking that if she can't deny the A anymore, she might associate Zew's behavior with the A, and understand that Zew is on the way out. But you're right, she doesn't give a crap, except for that bill paying part, and she's digging in deeper and deeper.

It kills me that it seems that my only options are to wait it out, or go nuclear. Can I not try to end the A by exposing it?

Some laundry day soon, she's going to go to get that bag, and it won't be there. It may be the first time that she accepts that I know about the A. Let's assume she doesn't care. If she tells OM, he might care. Maybe not. It would spook me.

Why do I care? Because it might end A. Exposure usually does that, doesn't it? Am I worse off?

Maybe I shouldn't care. I should just be walking my way down the road, regardless.

OK here's W's latest scheme.

W wants password to phone account "because she needs to look up a client's number that she forgot".

I said I'd send her a dump of the call records. She asked again for the password.

So clearly, the posse wants to look through my call records. (where they would see calls to L, and GAL stuff.)

If I don't give them the password, then clearly I'm hiding something. (They are accusing me of having an OW because I went out to GAL on Sunday. Therefore, W, you should leave Zew, because he's cheating on you, and see how controlling he is, and you're justified in having an A.)

See how this works, and keeps spiraling downward?

So, I'll respond with her call log and this:

Quote:

W, while you're having an A in our M, you don't get access to the family accounts. Period.

But there comes the denial again. And Zew's the bad guy again. Am I wrong to think that this would be easier if A was acknowledged?

Starsky, I'm thinking the nuclear option you used may be the only option for this case. Otherwise this is just some endless BS dance.

Originally Posted By: zew

Maybe I shouldn't care. I should just be walking my way down the road, regardless.

zew, have followed your situation a little bit and can certainly hear the pain, frustration, etc... that you are experiencing. I think that none of us would choose to live thru what we are currently faced with however........ this is out currently reality.

As tough as it is (and I am by no means a dB expert), I think what you typed in your previous post is what will serve you best to stay focused on. Walking your own road is really the only thing that you can control.

I can't say from direct experience, but certainly understand your desire to expose the A and maybe change some of the pain. I would ask one question, is there anything about your W's current behavior that would indicate the exposure would change anything?

Thoughts and prayers are with you. Stay strong!

I think you're doing a lot of mind reading and what if'ing - spinning things around in your head trying to find the angle that's going to get her to admit the affair and then end it.

Thing is, if she admits it, she may still not end it. If she admits it to you, she may continue to deny it to everyone else. While it probably would be better if she did admit it, she doesn't look like she's going to.

I don't think you're being consistent with you actions. If you know - then act like you know. Stop being 'nice zew' and be 'dim zew' - all of the time. Stop worrying about how she can turn that around onto you.

Thanks, Dingo.

I think you're right.

I have to go back to what I texted her a couple of months ago:

"I can't work with you until you're honest with me. Then everything is on the table. If you can't be honest, you've made your choice."

That's a pretty simple message to stick to.

I agree with the above. If you know beyond a shadow of a doubt she is having a A then act like it. She needs to know she cant have you both and be clear on that. W might want nothing to do with you right now, but keep being the better man you want to be and let her see you happy without her. She needs to know you will not share her and until she is committed to working on M with you alone you're done. This does not mean being a d**k to her, just try to seem happy with yourself. Get a new haircut and buy some nice new clothes.

I was in a similar situation not very long ago though it was a EA. I was lied to over and over. It did not end until I laid my foot down as hard as it was to do. It will not end over night, it took a couple months to completely go away for me, but it did.

I must add that I had made positive changes to myself that W had noticed and had time to believe were the real deal. If W is still very mad with you now may not be the time to lay down the law, but she needs to know that she can not have you both. Can you move out for awhile and give this time to sink in for her? I'm not very sure of your situation just read the last few pages.

Take that back, you should not move out. She is the one having fun on the side not you. Spare room at least,certainly not same bed if that is still the case!

You said it was too bad that confrontation doesn't work. Work how? I think I told you it was not an automatic fix. You have to have something more than simply approaching and telling her you know about the A. And the idea of confronting her......to seek admission from her seems kind of......empty! IMO. That is why she has continued to deny it and you continue to be frustrated.

I still say your big hang up is the idea that she's lying and thinks your buying. You want her to know that you know. So tell her you know. But do NOT present some "plan" or a list of options for her to choose. She chooses you or the A.

Need I remind you that she is not in the frame of mind to listen to all that stuff you listed? And she sure doesn't give a flip about your needs.....or even working on the M. Don't give her a five point outlined sermon. It is not the time. Keep it simple. If she chooses you, then that discussion can come later.

But what if she doesn't choose you.....or plays the same old hand as before? You MUST be prepared to take some type of action, Zew! Enough with the talks!

I believe Dingo made a very good point about the evidence you gathered. What do you plan to do with it? You just want to have something as proof to stck in her face,trying to force her to admit her A. That is what it all boils down to.....and what has been eating away at you this entire time. So, if she tells you to believe whatever you want.....then what will you do? It can be difficult to force her to admit an A or to it end. You have to have some kind of leverage. Even if she admits it.......what have you got other than an admission.

Starsky knew what would hit close to home for his WAW. Plus, he did a fantastic job at bluffing at how much proof he had. However, he was not all talk. He was prepared to carry through with action. That is the main point you need to realize in your stitch.

I don't usually encourage exposure unless the wayward W has refused to end the A.......and the M is clearly headed for D. I don't see exposure as a solution (in itself) to fix the M. It is telling the truth to chosen people that she had been lying to. Or, you can expose the A just between the two of you. But it won't cause her to fall into your arms when you do it. I doubt it will cause her to break down and repent right then & there. There is a good chance it won't end her waywardness.....and she may leave at that point. Which is okay as long as you know it could go either way.

So yeah.....go ahead with confronting her with solid evidence of her unfaithfulness. But you better have a plan for further action........for Zew. And don't tell what all you are going to do.

Quote:

And I am moving on. I guess I'd like her to understand my reasoning, and that she has something to do with it and some choice in the matter, rather than just have her wonder why I'm out without her, or call me an a$$hole that's trying to make her life miserable because he never loved me, etc. etc.

I don't understand what you mean here. Is this part of your reason for wanting to expose? Whether it is or not, do you think that telling her these reasons will matter to her? You are speaking as if she were the girl you M. She's not.

Moving out requires filing or else you screw yourself for custody. W and I both know this, so neither of us will EVER move out, which makes this all the harder. (no separation in this state)

Hey Zew

I'm not an expert at all, but I do know that I exposed the affair to my WAW's family, and it didn't change her actions one bit. This was pretty much right after I found out, and asked her to leave the house. I made a lot of mistakes that first month, but I'm trying to learn.

I would agree with Starksy you should have the talk where you tell her you know with the hand etc, but just remember that there is a high chance she will not change anything she is doing. She just won't care enough to change her behavior.

Obviously, you've been thrown for a loop, and much like myself, feel the affair is a f&$&$ing major stumbling block for the WAW to move past and start to realize what they are losing. It's like relationship Disneyland to have a M and cake eat and then have an A on the side. So I would surmise that we tend to focus our efforts on ending the A, because we think that is the only problem. What I'm starting to realize is that even if my W ended her A, I'm not sure she would chose to even attempt a R again with me. But that's out of my control and same for you. We need to keep working to continually improve ourselves so that we are ok no matter what happens

Exposing the A will not change her behavior I don't think, because it sounds like she is in denial anyways. She will just not talk or avoid people that know. She will justify her A however she needs in order to maintain her relationship, utilizing "evil zew". Don't give her that chance by focusing on yourself, so easy to say and yet so hard to follow.

Cheers

Devaste

Hi Sandi,

Quote:

I still say your big hang up is the idea that she's lying and thinks your buying. You want her to know that you know. So tell her you know.

It's not that I need her to know that I know. It's that I think that if it's exposed (only to her), then she becomes aware that my actions are in that context.
Again, she is convinced that by denying it, I have no reason not to believe her.
So if I were to file right now, she'd say "See, he never loved me, because he doesn't know about A, so what else could drive him to that?" If the A were obvious, she might say, "Hey, my A is causing me to lose something here." Maybe I'm wrong on the what if's, maybe she'll never have a logical thought again, but it seems to be the way she behaves.

For example, she's called three times while I've been writing this, all to get the password for the phone account, under the guise of needing a client's number from last month, in spite of my repeated offer of the last month's records for her phone.
In the last call, she asked if I was reluctant to give her the password because I had something to hide. You see, it has nothing to do with her records, the posse wants to look at mine. Because I am now going out some nights without her and GAL, she assumes I have an OW. I'm not going to subject myself to the scrutiny of the posse. And my thinking is that if the A were in the open, she might more easily accept that I am going out because there is nothing for me at home while the A is going on.

It was the same thing last month when she asked for a year's worth of bank statements. I'm not having that stuff go all over town. And as long as there is no proven A, then she continues down the "he's hiding something, and he has no reason not to show me" line as opposed to the "I'm not in this M, he has absolutely no reason to trust me, so I shouldn't be that surprised that he doesn't want to show me his bank statements" line.

So she spins up the "he's hiding something" with her friends, they repeat it, and I honestly think she believes it. I may be completely incorrect that she would assume any responsibility for what is happening if the A were in the open. But that's what's driving me there. It's not as simple as "I want you to know that I know". It's that I think it may take away the ability to deny responsibility.

Quote:

And I am moving on. I guess I'd like her to understand my reasoning, and that she has something to do with it and some choice in the matter, rather than just have her wonder why I'm out without her, or call me an a$$hole that's trying to make her life miserable because he never loved me, etc. etc.

I don't understand what you mean here. Is this part of your reason for wanting to expose? Whether it is or not, do you think that telling her these reasons will matter to her? You are speaking as if she were the girl you M. She's not.

I'll restate to clarify.

Quote:

And I am moving on. I guess I'd like her to understand that I have gone dim because I am letting go, and that is because I won't share her, and that she has some choice in that matter. Currently she wonders why I'm out doing things without her. She believes that the reason I don't pay $5000 a month on her CC bill is because I'm an a$$hole and I want to make her life miserable; not because we just can't afford that.

So, while I don't mean to be obstinate, and really, I do hear you when you tell me she won't listen to anything I say, and I won't convince her of anything right now, I also know she has some very wrong impressions of "what I think", and sometimes I think that if this stuff got written out, that maybe when her friends or her T look at it, someone might say, "Hey, this doesn't quite match what you're saying." So I get it, really, that she won't listen. But I also know that everything I do, absolutely everything, gets run by the posse multiple times daily. So I'm not just dealing with her anymore. It's me vs the crowd. And it is probably unlikely that I can get any influence with any of them.

And as I said yesterday, every line in that speech addresses a misconception of hers in her language. Agreed that none of that matters to her now.

Maybe it's this simple:

Quote:

I love you far too much to settle for only part of you. I need all or nothing.
You won't give me all of you, so I'm letting go.

You can't have both of us.
If you want to change the path we're on, end A then we can move forward. However, I can't wait forever.

And I just go as dark as possible. And the whole while, she doesn't understand why I'm moving on. And then one day, it's over.

Quote:

Or, you can expose the A just between the two of you. But it won't cause her to fall into your arms when you do it. I doubt it will cause her to break down and repent right then & there. There is a good chance it won't end her waywardness.....and she may leave at that point. Which is okay as long as you know it could go either way.

Agree on all points. Highly unlikely that she leaves yet because she is worse than broke, still with months before her first commission, and she won't leave kids. So unless one of the posse agrees to put she and the kids up, she will never leave the house. And I agree it may not stop A. All I really want is that she understand that things are unwinding because of A, and that is her choice. At least for a while, I'm sure it is just what she wants.

So tonight, when I go home, I'll have to deal with the phone password. And she will have no idea why she doesn't "have a right to the family account" (her words)
Well, it's because she's not part of the family right now, followed by denial.

Tell her why you're going dark/dim and then do it. Its that simple. She then knows that your actions are in that context because you've told her. If she denies, do the hand thing that Starsky mentioned and walk away.

You are in her head ENTIRELY too much and are following a long chain of causes and effects that are fabricated solely in yours. You have no idea if she wants the phone password so she can scrutinize your activity. You have no idea if she's going to say 'see he never loved me'.

Has it ever occurred to you that she knows exactly what she's doing? That she is playing you like a fiddle because your inconsistent actions have showed her that continuing to deny things is keeping you right where she wants you? Why don't you try being consistently dim/dark and see what happens. What is your alternative? To crawl around through her purse looking for her underwear?

Oh and to add another thing - you have absolutely zero influence with the posse and you never will. They will support everything she says no matter how illogical or ridiculous it seems to you. To her, what she's doing makes perfect sense and she will present it that way to them.

If they don't agree with her, she will stop hanging out with them and risk their friendship and none of them will want that. Looking to a WAW's friends to hold her feet to the fire and make her do the right thing is a lost cause.

So the conclusion is: As long as she is against you, they are against you - so who gives a [censored] what they think?

Think about it - are you going to risk losing one of your close friends because they are having a marital crisis and cheating on their spouse?

Quote:

If they don't agree with her, she will stop hanging out with them and risk their friendship and none of them will want that. Looking to a WAW's friends to hold her feet to the fire and make her do the right thing is a lost cause.

All true. I've already seen her drop a few pro-Zew friends, and pick up a few people that last year she called "fair weather" friends not to be trusted.

When my wife started her affair, she renewed a friendship with someone who had previously called her continuously with her (the friend) relationship woes. My wife would give her the same advice over and over and she would never take it. My wife claimed that her friend was incapable of being in a meaningful relationship because she didn't understand what it took to make one work.

Now she is confiding in and getting advice from this friend.

As for the OM - he previously hooked up with 2 of my wife's friends - one of which he had sex with on a neighbor's front porch (unaware to the neighbor) and was very pushy and forceful in trying to hook up with a 3rd. She called him gross and disgusting at one point. He was an extremely poor performer at work (caused some of her projects to be well over budget because he billed too many hours to them)and she complained over and over about how frustrating he was to work with.

Common thread: they both listened to her and agreed with her that I was an evil [censored] - and that's all she needed to keep them around.

One of her other friends liked me very much. She initially took my side and told my wife that she needed to do exactly what people on here say. End the affair 100% and figure out what you really want to do with your marriage. When she tried to get a little tough with my wife (when she 'slipped' and contacted the OM) she got her head ripped off and their friendship was threatened. Now she is firmly in the 'do whatever makes you happy' camp.

Then tell her you know what is going on......but do not tell her how you know or what you know. Tell her that you will not be in an open M. Leave it at that and do not get into a talk. Let her stew about what you know in detail, how you know, etc. do not start professing how much you love her or what she will have to do to save the M. Just state you know she's in an A and you won't be in a M with three people.

Then remove her things from the master bedroom and stop sleeping with her!! Set it all outside the bedroom doorway and let her have the job of figuring out where to put it and where to sleep.

Your biggest problem is wanting to justify your actions with your W and her friends. That is why you want her to know you know. You care too much what they think about you. That is why you want them to know why you are doing what you do. They are assisting her by encouraging her. When you live your life by wanting your enemies to approve of you.....you become a slave. Free yourself of this type of thinking.

Zew,

I was out of pocket yesterday (and still dealing with some family things), but you are getting strong, WISE counsel from folks here, esp. Dingo and Sandi. I hope you will give some pause and really think about what they're telling you here . . . they've said it far better than I've been stumbling around trying to.

Starsky

Thursday morning's conversation:

Z: We can't go on as we are. I love you but I need all or nothing. I won't share you, and you can't have both OM and me. There can't be 3 in a M. If you want to rebuild a new M, end the A and we can start working.

W: 3 of us? There aren't 3 of us.

Z: [Stop Hand] I know all about your A. Please stop lying to me. It's disrespectful of me and our M. It insults my intelligence. Even if we tear this M apart we are going to have to work together to co-parent our children for years to come and we're going to have to speak honestly with each other. Let's start doing that now.

W: You keep talking about 3, there is no 3, when would I have time?

Z: Do I really need to tell you when you had time? At this point, really?
W: Yes. There is no OM.

I gave a couple of dates/places.

W: Did you have me followed? Who told you that?
Z: Do you think that when a juicy piece of gossip happens to be about you, that people aren't going to spread it, just because it's about you?

W: Well if you know where I am all the time, do you know where I was on Friday?
Z: No, I don't know where you are all the time. I have no idea where you were Friday, but how is that relevant?

Z: Can you explain Monday's panties?

long pause

W: We can just keep going as we are.
Z: No we can't. The reality is you can choose your A, or you can try to rebuild something with your H, but we can't keep doing this, and I won't wait forever. We can either spend money on L or MC. We have big life decisions to make, and they impact 8 people.

W: [sarc]Well tell me Z, tell me the right choice.[/sarc]
Z: I can't tell you how to decide.

W: You think we can just go right back to the way it was.
Z: I think that our M is completely broken. Neither of us wants to go back to that. We can try to rebuild something better. We might find ourselves right here in a year, but at least we could say we tried.

W: Well I offered to go to MC and you said I didn't have the right attitude.
Z: I said we could only go when there were only 2 people in the M.

W: I have to go now.
Z: Me too.

---
Friday morning's conversation:

Z: Did you end your A yesterday?
W: I didn't have time to do anything yesterday. What A?

Z: OK, the choice was the A or the M. This is the marital bedroom. It goes with the M. You can sleep down the hall.

I started emptying her closet down to the guest bedroom.

W started throwing my stuff out the window.

W said she wouldn't move out of the bedroom, that I could move, that I checked out of the M years ago, etc. etc. etc. I told her I wasn't moving, I was the one still in the M. I asked that she stop using me as an excuse for her actions.

W phoned one of the posse to come over, and while they were out front talking, I hung all my stuff back in the closet, and finished moving her stuff down the hall.

Posse left, W came back in and started moving all her stuff back into our closet.

W: Isn't it illegal to video people? [that came from nowhere]
Z: I think you can video whatever you want in a public place.

W: So where did I go last night, if you know everything?
Z: I have no idea. You can go wherever you like.

Then W was very sarcastic and trying to be hurtful by saying: "Yes, I'm having sex with everyone, my name is in every bathroom stall, I'm the talk of the town, and OM and I had sex in our bed and then laughed about you."

Z: Maybe so.

I told her she would be much more comfortable in the spare bedroom, reminded her it's the A or the M, and left for work.

I may go home tonight to find my clothes in a smouldering pile in the fire pit.

----

Quote:

Your biggest problem is wanting to justify your actions with your W and her friends. That is why you want her to know you know. You care too much what they think about you.

I think you are dead on here. I wanted to be the nice guy.
Then Starsky's Little Bo Peep analogy comes to mind. But I'm dealing with a pack of wolves. Everyone in the posse has D'd at least once, so I'm up against a lot of practical tactics.

I have no expectation that I caused anything to change. She still denies the A, as expected. She may feel things are closing in. She's finding out she can't afford to leave for a good while, so unless she snaps out of things, she will continue to sponge, and the next move will be mine.

I am disengaging. Not another word. I've said anything I wanted to, and too often. I got it out of my system. If my position isn't clear now, it never will be.

I am not going to torment myself by trying to figure her out. Looking back, there's a long pattern of some serious responsibility issues that she may never get through. She still doesn't own any of them. She has come a long way on some fronts this year, but this A has really messed her up.

I know where I'm going, and I know roughly the timing of what I need to see by when.

I will be true to myself and do everything I can to make myself the better choice.

W has to follow her path and do what she has to do. Maybe we intersect. Maybe we don't.

So you showed her your cards.

She will be more cleaver from this point on.

Update:
We're in a whole different place. I can't go into how we got here, and it's not ideal, not how I would have liked to have seen it go down, but it's where we are.

1. A was exposed to MIL, SIL. Both are very pro-M, pro-Zew. They are encouraging W to take her time, not do anything rash. They are encouraging me to do the same. They are talking individually to both of us.

2. W has agreed to NC with OM (May 9). She hasn't made any final determination about me or M or OM. She is simply not sure what she wants to do, and has agreed to NC while she figures it out. I hopefully have long enough for emotions to cool, get some withdrawal time logged. I think what happens next is she will commit to D or M. (pure mindreading)

3. OM has slithered under a rock. The lights are way too bright for him. W has tried to protect him. He is not my business, but my concern is my W, not OM.

4. It is absolutely clear to W that I will not tolerate A any more. MIL has absolved me of any obligations. Things have become very real for W.

5. W has agreed to MC, and we will go as soon as we can. I am interviewing MC's now, looking for one who knows how WAWs work, and understands that W is not committed to anything right now other than giving herself time. She is still generally angry, angry that her family knows, demanding, still feeling very entitled, no remorse, financially trapped. She's starting to become aware that she's caused some major damage that is not in her best interest, but still nowhere near taking any responsibility. I have to find an MC that can deal with this. Hopefully we can start and not blow things up. She has been skeptical that I would even go to MC. I hope that she can get a sense that this can at least make things better even if we D; and as we get more time away from OM that things can truly be productive.

Not ideal, but it is what it is.

Wow, this is intense. But I think you made the right call. You are taking your power back.

I think for a WAW to come back, she must respect her husband. As long as you are remaining calm and standing strong, she is certainly going to start reeling.

This isn't the end, I think she will start to experience some real anger. I'm not sure how that will unfold but be prepared for it.

Staying calm and confident is going to be key here IMO. Don't let her bait you into a fight. Detach as best you can, I'm sure the stress level in the house is off the charts.

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Not ideal, but it is what it is.

Maybe not ideal, as you said, but I really believe it's better like this....than like it was.

She doesn't get to pretend there no third party now. She's having to face some harsh issues, which must happen in order for her to get through this process.

Keep standing tall and showing her that you can't be pushed around. Stay in close contact with us Zew. Please don't drop out of sight and cause us to wonder what happened.

WOW, good for you ZEW. But I thought everyone on here says not to bring up OM, but whatever you did obviously had an impact. I know your WAW is still living with you and sleeping in the same bed, so maybe its different.

Even though my WAW moved out a few months ago I want ask her if she's still seeing OM, (which she denied when we were living together)

I hope your sitch turns around and you guys are able work something out.

Originally Posted By: OneDay

. . . But I thought everyone on here says not to bring up OM, but whatever you did obviously had an impact. . . .

Even though my WAW moved out a few months ago I want ask her if she's still seeing OM, (which she denied when we were living together)

. . .

You will notice that Zew didn't "ask" anything. His was a firm "I know all about you and ________, and it has to stop" type of stance.

What people around here recommend you avoid is constantly asking, begging, accusing, supplicating behavior. There is NOTHING wrong with a strong, decisive, "I will not live in an open marriage and I know all about your affair" stance . . . in fact, I strongly recommend it.

Starsky

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Maybe not ideal, as you said, but I really believe it's better like this....than like it was.

God, yes.
I am greatly relieved because the pretense is all gone. You all know how that was getting to me.
I noticed I'm not sleeping at night though, maybe because I just don't know what's coming next. What I do know is that I will face whatever comes head on. On the other hand, maybe it's the new espresso machine at work.

Quote:

You will notice that Zew didn't "ask" anything. His was a firm "I know all about you and ________, and it has to stop" type of stance.

Oh man, yes. Friday was an action day. There was just no more playing around.

Monday, I told W we had to try MC. Told her I used to be confident we could make this work, but after the events of Friday, I wasn't at all sure I even wanted it to work.

Then she started making demands to protect OM's privacy and I shut that right down. Demands! No mood for demands. There is nothing I care less about than OM and his reputation. I'm not going out of my way to get him, but I'm not cleaning up any messes either.

Friday, W effectively lost her plan A and her plan B. She doesn't know what she wants yet, but I can tell you she knows I'm not a sure thing anymore.

I used to hope she would pick me as her plan A. Now her choices are not so much A or B, but M or D. Told her at this point I didn't care how, but I had to stop getting hurt.

Hey, I'm still early on in this, so what do I know about anything. However, I think the live-in WAW in an A is a special beast that you just can't ride out. They have NO sense of loss because there is no loss. At least with separation you have the loss of contact working in your favor over time. I think you have to intervene with the live-in. I reserve the right to amend this theory.

So, I'm moving forward with a little bit of knowledge, and the blind confidence that I can solve anything from first principles.

zew, I've been following your sitch closely, as it has been fairly similar to mine; WAW in an A - but still lives with me, mind you in separate rooms - and while she didn't deny the A (nor confirm it, either) at first - I confronted her once I had evidence to confirm it.

It seems like your confrontation had more of an impact on your W, mine seems to have dug in and is more committed to the A than before.

I do agree they need to feel a loss, and don't dispute stepping in. Seems like you handled it fairly well. Good job!

I applaud you, Zew.

Well done, you are now commanding respect and showing your confidence. Your W I'm sure was floored when you told her this.

Nothing will change if nothing changes! Keep it up!

Yesterday I snooped - first time in weeks.

A with OM is over and done.

W has been hanging out with a twice D'd single mom. Her new best friend. The other night they went out and apparently some new OM hit on W. W is considering starting a new A with a new OM. Not a PA yet, just flirting.

W has agreed to go to MC. I've been carefully interviewing and will pick one today.

What is the point in any of this any more?

W wants to go do things and have fun. I would love to, but I'd like to see some commitment first. In the mean time, she goes out with someone else.

We have to go to the MC session. Maybe that's where it all comes out. Are you willing to work on M or are we going to start this cycle again? Do I confront again before this goes too far? Or do I just file. I just can't see going through this again.

Otherwise, I was out GAL last night with a fun group, had a wonderful time. Then came back to this news.

Zew,

Yeah, I was concerned that there might end up being an OM2 before this was all said and done, based on the limbo you two were in and your wife's stubborn persistence in not ending her affair (or even ADMIT it!) with OM1. It's pretty common, and one of the reasons why I don't go for the "Little Bo-Peep" approach (not saying you were doing that necessarily) nor do I draw any comfort with the much-thrown-out stat of "most affairs end within 6 months." Because unless both the affair and the underlying marital dysfunctions are addressed immediately, even if an affair with OM1 should end -- and especially if its end is initiated by the OM and not by the wayward wife -- there usually ends up being an OM2 (and an OM3, and . . . ).

What are you going to do? Personally I don't really see where MCing is going to be fruitful in your wife's current wayward state. Are these sessions costing you guys $$$, or is this thru an employer EAP or something?

Starsky

We will go to a couple of MC sessions. Take that as a given. (I'll explain someday.) I have no expectation of them being productive, since W has apparently no desire. She's pretty much over OM1 now, she broke up with him before, it was quicker this time. I want to get an MC session in before she gets hooked on OM2.

About all I hope to establish with MC is that I am willing to put everything on the table, and maybe she sees that there actually is an alternative there. What she wants to do is have fun and do things. It would be like dating again. She doesn't believe it can happen with me. It's as if she's asking for pursuit. I'm not interested until I see some change on her side for some very basic issues.

If a session or two of MC can establish that I'm an alternative, then I guess she has a choice to make, and PDQ in my mind. It will be pretty obvious if she buys into MC.

As for payment of MC. Some MC's are covered, some aren't. I could probably get the EAP to cover anyone for a while. I have yet to find a solutions-based one that is covered, but really, I don't care, I'll foot the bill. I bet we only get a couple of sessions in before it will be obvious whether it's at all worthwhile.

At that point, what choice would I have? Everything would be out in the open, wouldn't it; her choice would have been made. OM1 you can call a mistake. OM2, not so much. I'm not going to Bo-peep OM2. I can't imagine why I wouldn't file at that point.

Zew, I feel like I'm in the same boat- wanting to show WAW my new self and knowing that we could have fun and do new exciting things, but not unless she's committed to working on things and OM is out of the picture. Frustrating, isn't it?

Face your fears man! Don't build them into big fears, eventually they will come true. All you need to behave strong and act on strengths of your relationship. Your strength is SHE SAYS SHE LOVES YOU. It needs lots of patience to nurture it. Love fights with you, abandons you sometimes, comes back to you, goes away from you. The only thing which stays strong is YOU. Most important thing is , in suggesting counselling to her you may end up seeking counselling for yourself. Just stick to your routine. Do all the things you love doing. I know its hard. But be strong. If it's true, love will always find its way.

I agree.

Quote:

Personally I don't really see where MCing is going to be fruitful in your wife's current wayward state.

Very true, and the key word here is "wayward". You might bust the A, but a wayward W is a harder to nut to crack.

Zew, these single women who have been M & D a couple of times seem to be the role model your W has chosen. Instead of focusing on being a W and mother, she wants to acts single. When they are out for drinks, I'm sure flirting is encouraged. They feed off each other.

Not that a WAW doesn't generate enough of her own wayward fuel, but this posse of hers seems to be like poison to working things out anytime soon.

Well, you certainly have a big problem. She's not in a great love affair with the OM, b/c she's too quick to replace him with the possibility of a new man. That spells out things pretty plain. She just wants to kick up her heels. And if she has a history of taking no responsibility for her actions, then trying to force her to do it now...may be a losing battle.

Without some serious loss, or some type of crises in her life, it may go on like this for a long time.

I agree with Starsky about MC not helping at this point. If her attitude was different and she wasn't already back out there looking for a new affair partner, it could be at least hopeful. I was hoping you had left out a lot of conversation from that Friday, and maybe she had a change of heart....but it sure doesn't sound like that's what happened.

How did things end over the bedroom battle? Last I heard, you two were having a race over shifting clothes around.

Sandi - I did leave out a bunch of the bedroom battle. That's a story for another day. Net bottom line is the commitment to go to MC, and an agreement to be civil to each other.

Quote:

Well, you certainly have a big problem. She's not in a great love affair with the OM, b/c she's too quick to replace him with the possibility of a new man. That spells out things pretty plain. She just wants to kick up her heels. And if she has a history of taking no responsibility for her actions, then trying to force her to do it now...may be a losing battle.

Good point... her willingness to move on so quickly does make these A's sound pretty superficial.

One of our common friends told me that W told her that the A wasn't about the sex, it was about having someone listen to her. Hard for me to address that, since W doesn't want to spend any time with me. I have reached out, went to sit with her one evening as she was hiding out in bedroom. We watched some TV together, said virtually nothing until she fell asleep a few minutes later. (at 7PM)

Again, this is a complaint of W's - that we never go out and have fun. Easily remedied, I think, but she won't have anything to do with me. Something I think that MC might achieve is to have her face this paradox. Someone other than me has to point out the circular logic and break the cycle. Until then, the posse goes out and whoops it up.

I had really hoped that ending A would have cleared her mind some, but she has these friends that keep pushing her on to the next situation. And if she delves into this OM2, she'll be right back in the fog. (She is already.)

She certainly has a history of financial irresponsibility.

She's had some pro-M friends, my MIL, SIL really weigh in with her over the last two weeks since the A-outing. But it looks like the local A-pushers are winning.

Quote:

Zew, these single women who have been M & D a couple of times seem to be the role model your W has chosen.

Yup, they keep telling her it's OK. You'll get the house. The kids will be fine. He'll have them on weekends, so you can come and hang out with us. Of course they have careers to pay for things, and W is just starting and hasn't made dime one.

Man this is hideous. So hard to watch someone you love just self destruct and take the whole family with them. W's sister is bipolar and is convinced W needs to see a real doctor, not her T. W used to talk to her S for at least a half hour a day; now, not at all.

The MC is kind of my last hope at anything maybe getting to her. I realize the risk of going to MC. I'm not entirely sure that she won't listen to MC. She has offered twice now, and I don't think her offer is totally bogus. Granted, it's a weak offer, not an all in offer. I'd like to think that she has doubts about MC/me, but she's had so many people she trusts tell her in the last 2 weeks to try MC that she may genuinely listen. And she has been going to T for last year, and that has helped her some, so she has some faith in the whole therapy thing.

I guess I'm saying that I really don't think she's going just to get someone to agree with her that M can't be reconciled. Could be just my wishful thinking that she's actually looking for a rescue, and getting her to a place where she can dump it all out with a moderator to keep us in line might do that for her.

just looked - about 90 texts to the new guy EACH of the last 3 days.

Wow!

That says it all. You don't need to say or do anything to confirm you know about text. Start practicing Sandi's list. Your wife is being rebellious in your R & M. Totally acting out for attention. Did I miss something that is missing in your R that would drive her to this behavior? She hasn't left yet, so why? Maybe do a 180 and tell her you no longer want to do MC. (It won't work if she's being deceptive searching for an OM). Get a DBing coach asap. Obviously, she doesn't want to stop her search for some OM. My xH carried on an EA & PA for 1/2 year while we had MC. It did help me in the long run though, so maybe you need it for yourself.

What is she thinking? I mean, we just went through all this, and it ended very badly, with family involved and everything.

And she's starting again? And more careless than last time?

I think I'll pick the MC who is also an LMHC.

Is this MLC? Is there any way this makes sense to her?

Quote:

She hasn't left yet, so why?

Because she knows what child support $ is, and she can't afford to leave. She has no source of income other than me. And she's been coached enough never to leave the house. She wants to stick around until she can afford to be a single mom.

Quote:

something that is missing in your R that would drive her to this behavior?

I spend too much time on computer. (Fixed that. spend all time with kids now.)
I'm too serious. (I'm the responsible one who keeps cleaning up her messes and financing her overspending.)
We don't go out enough. (Can't 180 that now.)
Not enough romance. (Can't 180 that now.)
I do my own laundry, vacuum the house, load/unload dishwasher, cook on weekends, but I don't dust. (dead serious)
I treat her like a child and won't give her access to my bank account. (what's to be said)

She sounds like a bit of a PRINCESS.

I think it's high time she be made to put on her BGPs and began to learn what her life would be like without you.

Starsky

Ditto. Get with a DBing coach.

I'm actually kind of worried about her.

(Yes, that's been my problem all along. I rescue.)

Did I mention there's family history of bipolar disorder? Her mom and sister are worried that it's her turn.

I don't know - maybe MC/LMHC will address some of her behavior with her. After the whole outing of the A to family and all, this just seems totally irrational. She knows the consequences of D, and that everyone will watch it unfold in front of them, and if I tell family about OM2, wow. Just seems so self destructive. She's torching everything. Is there a cry for help here?

MIL/SIL are concerned that she has flipped out, understand if I leave, but hope I can get her help. Just a little more pressure.

I about 4 weeks W/kids will go to visit MIL/SIL for a few weeks. That will be the next intervention.

meeting tomorrow with my DB coach.

Originally Posted By: zew

I'm actually kind of worried about her.

(Yes, that's been my problem all along. I rescue.)

"How's that workin' out for ya!" (Dr. Phil)

That should read:

Quote:

In about 4 weeks W/kids will go to visit MIL/SIL for a few weeks. That will be the next intervention.

I won't be there.

Quote:

"How's that workin' out for ya!" (Dr. Phil)

I hear ya, buddy.

Thinking fast today... dangerous, I know.
So if we're at MC, and I happen to say that for M to work, A would have to be over, and you couldn't start any new ones, how could MC not ask? How could this not come out? How on earth does she not get confronted by this at MC. Does she try denial again? That wasn't a winning strategy last time.

And if MC suggests D, how does that sit with W? She doesn't want D, that interferes with cake eating. And if I say "I think you're right, D is the answer." then what?

Maybe this MC will be good because it will give her something to think about on the long drive to MIL/SIL and the 2 weeks she's there in relative isolation.

Originally Posted By: zew

Thinking fast today... dangerous, I know.
So if we're at MC, and I happen to say that for M to work, A would have to be over, and you couldn't start any new ones, how could MC not ask? How could this not come out? How on earth does she not get confronted by this at MC. Does she try denial again? That wasn't a winning strategy last time.

Why do you always seem to be looking or a way to "trap" your wife into saying something or admitting something, or -- worse yet -- getting the MC to somehow get her to do it? GOOD GOD, you overthink everything!!! (YOU ARE JUST LIKE ME!!!!)

Why not just simply say "I don't really want a divorce, and I'm willing to work on the marriage, including my own issues that didn't meet your needs. However, I'm not willing to do that as long as there's a 3rd person in the marriage. So you can deny the last affair all you want and you can deny this new guy all you want, but I'm done talking about it and I'm done wasting my time and money here. This insults my intelligence and not only is it incredibly disrespectful to our marriage and our family, frankly -- it's very unattractive."

And get up and leave.

Wow, Starsky.. that's great.

I feel like I need to do something similar with my wife - I'd love for you to swing a 2x4 my way if you wouldn't mind. My sitch.

Don't mean to hijack, zew - I'm sorry it sounds like your WAW is going head-first back into the sand, just when it sounded like she might be coming around.

I'd agree with Starsky though, she's not wanting a D but not wanting to commit to you, so I think maybe you might need to make a move such as this. I'm preparing to see an L about getting a separation agreement in place with my WAW, despite the fact that it's not something I want to do - I just feel I have no other choices and need to start protecting myself - in my case, she does want the D (and even as recently as last week suggested we try petitioning the courts to waive the 1-year separation requirement).

Quote:

Is this MLC? Is there any way this makes sense to her?

What if it is MLC? Does that change anything? Would it somehow make you feel better? Not anymore than hearing she's bipolar. I think you are just seeking some kind of diagnosis or label to give this craziness.

So, she was outed to her family. I don't have details about how the A ended, just that OM slid under a rock. What I am seeing in the information I read, is that she has not changed her mind/heart, and since she's already been exposed then why hold back now? She might as well live it up the way she chooses.......not how her H or family chooses for her.

As I said before, she may have agreed (with you strongly insisting) to go to MC, but it was just lip service to get people off her back at the time. When there is no remorse after you've been outed, there's nothing left but rebellion and resentment. Oh, and she does feel very entitled. If she ever has a doubt, her posse will set her straight. It doesn't have to make sense to her, b/c she running on the high she gets from it.......just like a drug user.

I do not say any of this with a cold heart. If I had not had a dose of the waywardness myself, I would be exactly like you and her family. If it were my sister, daughter, or spouse.....I would think there must be something terribly wrong with her. And if there was one sibling with bipolar, I would probably wonder if she had it. However, I can tell you a wayward spouse can act as if they are bipolar. But there is no medication for waywardness........(in pill form).

So I don't think she ever had intentions of turning around. She sees she survived the heat, and continues going on however she chooses. You may have drawn a line in the sand, but she more than stepped over it and daring you to do something about it.

Sandi, we are on the same page.

Dam, Zew! I hate to say it, but I think sandi is right on the money. It sounds so much like my sitch, except my WAW completely denied being involved with OM and only said "she might be talking with someone and thats it." She also said at one point I might have made a bad choice and Im not going to put myself in that situation anymore, But I clearly knew she was involved and going over to his mothers house (yes he lives with his mother) on several occasions.

..... Moments after I confronted her she continued to talk/see OM. I might have "tried" to draw the line but she defiantly stepped right over it without any regret. Heck, she might have even pursued OM harder. I know after I set some boundaries (which needed to be done) that it really made her determined to find her own place.

My WAW moved out 2 months and I have no Idea if she still involved with OM. Its the hardest thing to deal with, trust me Im still dealing with it. I want to know if she's with OM. I know if wont do me any good to find out, but its hard to take your mind off of it.

Your right, they dont seem like the same person anymore. I dont know how many times I've said something is mentally wrong with her. They seem to care only about themselves and OM/OP, and It SU#k's, it Su#k's bad.

Coach suggests me doing a 180 at MC tomorrow and NOT controlling the session or clubbing W over the head with old A or new A. Prove her T wrong that I won't hold A against her.

In other words, don't sabotage the session before finding out whether W is actually receptive to MC. So, a lot of validation, STFU and letting the MC lead. Lay out the olive branch that says hey, I'm here willing to do the work.

Originally Posted By: zew

In other words, don't sabotage the session before finding out whether W is actually receptive to MC. So, a lot of validation, STFU and letting the MC lead. Lay out the olive branch that says hey, I'm here willing to do the work.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I haven't seen the issue as a "are you willing to do MC, wife?" but rather one of "Will MCing with my wife be effective while she is having an affair?"

Many wayward spouses are WILLING to do MC. It's just that usually it's either to validate their waywardness, prove to hostile friends and family that "see? I tried" or -- in the worst cases -- to get "permission" from a counselor to help them move toward divorce.

Starsky

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Many wayward spouses are WILLING to do MC. It's just that usually it's either to validate their waywardness, prove to hostile friends and family that "see? I tried" or -- in the worst cases -- to get "permission" from a counselor to help them move toward divorce.

I don't disagree, we've discussed this.

Coach's point is that another confrontation will also drive her away, because it's Zew being controlling, telling me what to do, and she'll never come back to MC, and will be able to say, "see? I tried, but it's the same old Zew". So I'd be assuring a negative outcome of the session.

And she'll deny the A, so what purpose does that serve? If I want to take that stand, I can do that anytime, there's no advantage to sabotaging the MC session with that.

So, by being nice, validating, etc. I establish that MC isn't confrontational, and maybe she sees hope.

I'm highly skeptical that WAW sees anything that isn't OM related.

Please point out to me where in my little suggested "speech" above I say ANYTHING about what your WIFE needs to do. I must have missed that. I was only advocating you standing up for what YOU need going forward, and whether or not you're going to waste your time with the charade that would be MCingin her current state of mind.

But if you trust your DB coach, you should go with what they tell you if you think it has been effective.

Starsky

Originally Posted By: sandi2

So I don't think she ever had intentions of turning around. She sees she survived the heat, and continues going on however she chooses. You may have drawn a line in the sand, but she more than stepped over it and daring you to do something about it.

. . . and she will now view "niceness" as just yet-another step over one of Zew's so-called lines.

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Please point out to me where in my little suggested "speech" above I say ANYTHING about what your WIFE needs to do.

You didn't. Sorry, my comment was carry over from other things coach and I discussed.

Quote:

I was only advocating you standing up for what YOU need going forward, and whether or not you're going to waste your time with the charade that would be MCingin her current state of mind.

Coach is simply suggesting that the first MC session isn't the place to accuse W of A2.
This is just in case W sees any ray of hope in MC. She has been in IC for the last 8 months and she says that has helped her, so maybe. She never thought I would go to MC - I've called her bluff. She squirmed a little when I told her the appt was tomorrow.

Doesn't stop me from stating:
"I don't really want a divorce, and I'm willing to work on the marriage, including my own issues that didn't meet your needs. However, I'm not willing to do that if there's any possibility of a 3rd person in the marriage. And because of A1, I need some assurances. We need to work on trust, and part of that would be transparency..."

This will not be comfortable for W. I've prepped MC on the sitch, so we'll see if she can prevent W from hijacking.

I agree that this is just giving her yet one more chance to fix this on her own (unlikely) and restating previously stated boundaries (bad). I have very, very little confidence in this, but it will be the first time we actually air grievances in a moderated setting.

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So I don't think she ever had intentions of turning around. She sees she survived the heat, and continues going on however she chooses. You may have drawn a line in the sand, but she more than stepped over it and daring you to do something about it.

I concur. Unfortunately, I have to buy a bit of time, so I have to give this a try.

So let's play this out.

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Why not just simply say "I don't really want a divorce, and I'm willing to work on the marriage, including my own issues that didn't meet your needs. However, I'm not willing to do that as long as there's a 3rd person in the marriage. So you can deny the last affair all you want and you can deny this new guy all you want, but I'm done talking about it and I'm done wasting my time and money here. This insults my intelligence and not only is it incredibly disrespectful to our marriage and our family, frankly -- it's very unattractive."

And get up and leave.

And she sits there with MC and denies the A. "He's just a friend." And then she comes home. And we're back to the denial cycle. And she will never, never leave. And she doesn't care if we don't MC.

My one and only effective move is to file.

ok. slept on it. A2 must come up. We have to establish boundaries of even doing MC. I have to state what I need to go forward. no ultimatum, no telling her what to do. just what I need.

Originally Posted By: zew

ok. slept on it. A2 must come up. We have to establish boundaries of even doing MC. I have to state what I need to go forward. no ultimatum, no telling her what to do. just what I need.

----------------------------------------------------

Jayne, on �boundaries�:

Think about boundaries like this:

Boundaries are not about controlling the other person, because boundaries are about drawing "circles" around *you* and determining what you will and won't allow inside that circle.

Your wayward wife can do whatever she wants OUTSIDE that circle. You are not telling her what to do.

But you will only let into that circle people who treat you with respect.

She's free to go on treating you with disrespect, but you won't know about it because she'll be outside your circle. She's free to go on and draw her own boundaries of no expectations and no responsibilities, outside your circle.

She can do WHATEVER she wants. She's a free person, free to make WHATEVER choices she wants.

BUT SO ARE YOU, and you are free to choose who to allow within your circle.

That's all. Not about trying to control her at all. Tell her she's totally free. She has the WHOLE WORLD, outside your circle, to go and do whatever she wants.

If she's saying you have to let her into your circle no matter what, then THAT is about HER controlling YOU.

Originally Posted By: zew

And she sits there with MC and denies the A. "He's just a friend."

You'll have no idea how she responds (nor does it matter) -- you will have left. The purpose of such a mini-speech is to state YOUR boundaries, NOT to get her to admit something in front of the MC (which, in my opinion, you are still WAY WAY WAY too hung up on!!!).

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And she doesn't care if we don't MC.

So what? You can't control her. What YOU would be doing is stating under what conditions YOU are willing to spend time and money on marriage counseling: no OM, and be honest in the sessions. Anything less is total disrespect and a charade.

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My one and only effective move is to file.

It may soon come to that, yes -- that's a possibility. It's really the last card you can play, however, so I think you have to try everything else first.

Starsky

I'll tell you, I'm sick over this whole thing.

I can only state my offer of putting everything on the table, working through issues, state my conditions of MC - 2 people only. I can accept first A - I understand how it happened, we can learn from it and use this MC. But I can't go through another A.

Then her actions tell all.

MC was as expected. W went through litany of past grievances. I've 180'd some of them, and others are self fulfilling prophecies of WAW (not romantic, don't spend time together, etc.)

W couldn't explain why she was there. She said she was "indifferent" to M. MC told her you kind of had to be committed.
I mean she did dump everything, and if she keeps showing up, the MC is going to make her confront it. W made every effort to me out to be a villain. That's ok - I want the whole list on the table.

MC told W she would have to stop blaming for some things that I've stopped doing. Good sign - she's forward thinking and not going to let W dwell on the past.

W would not admit A1. Just stared. I told MC about evidence. MC said "ok, there was an A".

It wasn't until last minute of session that I was able to squeeze in my conditions of going to MC - honesty and only 2 people in M. MC asked if I was concerned that A was still ongoing. I said I was concerned that W was starting new A with OM2. W turned red. I said I recognized that W could make whatever decisions she wanted, but they were inconsistent with M. MC told W that MC wouldn't work if she was in an A and that she needed to make some decisions, and also that I had to quit scrutinizing W.

We booked next session. W indifferently agreed. I'm sure she's looking for the "unviable" excuse. I don't know if MC will let her off that easily. She really directed the conversation. For me, whether we return depends on what happens next with A2.

W is mad as he11 with me right now. This certainly didn't draw her any nearer, nor can I expect it to have any impact on A2 other than to drive it underground. But once again, there's no secret.

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When there is no remorse after you've been outed, there's nothing left but rebellion and resentment. Oh, and she does feel very entitled. If she ever has a doubt, her posse will set her straight. It doesn't have to make sense to her, b/c she running on the high she gets from it.......just like a drug user.

Sandi you were dead on. She's not talking to her family now since they know. There's only one member of the local posse left; the twice-D'd single mom. She's looking for someone to go with her to pick up men at bars, and W is it. Everyone else in the local posse has pretty much dropped out now. The first OM was true love and romance, but OM2 in a week?

I wondered (not really) if they'd go out tonight, and sure enough, W mentioned at dinner that she was going out tonight. I knew it had to be posse, and I'm sure OM2 will show up. He's D'd, so he doesn't have to worry about his M like OM1 did.

So she is just kicking up her heels, as you said. OM2 a week after the end of OM1? There's no love here, it's just the high of some guy hitting on you.

My reaction tonight? While I find this whole thing revolting, tonight, I really didn't care. I know where she's going and what she's doing, and she's been outed and doesn't care. I've lost any urge to snoop; there's nothing left to know at this point -- until she's begging to come back, she's screwing someone.

I was willing the pass off the first A as bad judgement, but this is now just rebellion. I can't control it, I can hate it, but that's not going to help either, so I said absolutely nothing tonight. She tried to have a conversation with me as she left, "just going out". My boundary of honesty just won't let me engage.

This is worse than bad judgement, this is no judgement. This is addiction. She knows where this leads, and she can't afford that, but off she goes. Tells me there's no thought of the kids, how she'll live, or anything. This isn't a well thought out WAW exit plan, this is just the thrill of dating. She's unable to manage the timeline.

MC's eyebrows raised when W described drugs she was on and that 2 of her siblings were BPD, and one of those is drug addict/alcoholic. And that W just ended and A, and was starting a new A a week later. I may go to MC alone this week just to fill in MC. Given the situation, I want to hear if MC sees any value in trying to work on any of the issues, given W's frame of mind (unlikely). The only benefit I see is that unlike T who passively listens and validates, MC challenges and forces an answer, but usually a conveniently dishonest answer. We will still need to co-parent, after all.

So while it's a tragedy to see her self destruct, it makes it easy to shift my focus on my next steps for me. Of course, maybe it isn't self destruction - maybe she really wants to be a much poorer D'd single mom in the bar scene. To each his own. I have established for myself (in spite of you all telling me beforehand

) that there is truly nothing I can do to help her on her journey, except maybe to continue my journey alone.

A little humor.

Last week W was angry with me because I went out without telling her that I was leaving. "I always tell you when I'm going", she said, indignantly.

I laughed and to myself thought - "Yes, how good of you to tell me you're going out (for a booty call with OM)."

So lately, when she leaves, she says "Back in a few." And now I laugh to myself -- a few what? (minutes, hours, days, men) And it just doesn't matter to me anymore. It's so much more comfortable when she isn't in the house - she's so tense when she's here - D12 has even said "What's with Mom?" and I just shut up. D12 and I are having a lot of time together lately, and it's so relaxed.

W left with a bottle of wine just now, which means she's going to commiserate with a GF. Which means she's still trying to rationalize this. That, to me, is the funniest part. How she can do what she does, and still be bothered enough to have to complain about every little thing I say or do. She still has to rationalize.

I've learned a lot about emotions in the last year, and I'm pretty grateful for that. I found out that even I have them, and it's better to feel than to suppress them.

How are you doing, Zew?

short answer...

I've spent the last 3 days calmly gathering everything I need to file, filling out my financial statement, chasing down financial institutions for the value of all my holdings at the time of my marriage.

Boy Scout's motto...

You care. I do the same thing in my mind. Try not to make huge assumptions about where W is going and doing what? When H left it helped.

Yes, Owl, I care.

I also know I care a lot less today than 2 weeks ago. With OM1, I could understand how that EA turned into a PA. The whole OM2 thing a week after ending A1, though, that's been a game changer. Something about not being Plan B, but demoted to Plan C. But I don't put a lot of stock in that either - right now W is just someone other than any of us ever knew.

I guarantee, I'm not assuming anything about W. Those details no longer matter. Her choices. Not for me to control or judge. And yes, I believe it might help her if she left, but she won't.

Nothing has helped me detach as much as the events of the last two weeks. I can't even imagine what R would look like anymore -- I used to have a clear picture, naively.

So, I've been gathering info, crunching numbers; getting comfortable with the alternative outcomes.

W will not be able to keep the house, unless some OM moves in right away and starts paying the bills, or she somehow gets a mortgage with little income. Whatever; not my problem - I walk away with cash.

I don't want the house. It was always bigger than we needed, and there are better configurations for my hobbies. Looking forward to downsizing to something that works better for me. Don't know that I want to live in this town, either, after all this, no matter how it turns out - triggers abound. And the commute sux too.

Child support will be about what I pay on W's CC each month, so it's about a wash. And without the big house mortgage and expenses, I'll be just fine.

So nothing hasty here - a few key events come up in the next month that may change things, for better or worse. Just having the same thoughts we all have from time to time; I realize that the script for the LBH is about as rigid as it is for the WAW.

Somehow, I'm enjoying a new level of peacefulness.

Zew, I feel like I'm at the same crossroads, so perhaps you're right about the LBS' script.

My WAW's A has gone on long enough and she's pushing down the path to D pretty hard, I feel like I'm out of DB and solution oriented options.

I'm also looking at my alternatives and don't see how our R could work at this point. I've detached pretty well and now realize that this will ultimately be W's loss if she lets me go. I'll be fine, but I can't say the same for her.

Stay strong, this too shall pass.

W isn't pushing for D. She just want to act single while I continue to provide for everything.

I am kind of beyond caring whether W ever senses a loss or not. That has nothing to do with me living my life to my best.

She's wrapped up in astrology lately. Anything to justify the behavior. So as we were watching the baseball game together, she is looking up compatibility of her sign with OM. And it says trouble and bliss. And so I looked up her sign with my sign. Of course, it says trouble and bliss. It's astrology.
And I say to myself, I'm actually trying to put something back together with someone who is looking to astrology to guide their life decisions.**

**No offense to those out there who believe in Astrology. Not my thing; thought I had screened for that back when interviewing life partners; apparently W slipped through.

Sorry zew, meant my W -- not yours.

Yours definitely wants to just eat cake. A rock and a hard place, for sure.

We have MC appt again this afternoon. No idea how I want to deal with that. I'm thinking of asking for 5 minutes at the start of the session with no interruptions. State why I'm there and my boundaries on MC. Then let MC run with it. Funny, at this point I'm almost looking for MC to tell me this is irreconcilable.

I'm pretty sure nothing I say in there impacts anything. Not sure yet if anything MC says sinks in at all. Don't know why it would.

W told a friend (who then told me) that she isn't sure I can meet her needs. Friend asked her what she had to lose from going to MC to find out. Asked her how she was going to live and support family if she D'd. Explained to her that she would lose the house. W had no answers.

If it were not for being on the board, you would probably be in such a state of shock at this point (after OM#2) that you would not be able to function well enough to protect yourself financially.

She's headed for a bad place. Don't know when, but it's coming.

I know you are suffering, but you sound stronger. You are going to make it.

Zee,

Can't imagine what your going through. Unbelievable really, but I've learned a WAW's actions can often be surprising. Your doing a great job processing all this, as it must be extremely frustrating.

From my own experience, I'd be careful hoping the MC will influence or change your W's actions. I've been in a similar position where I was hoping for the MC to step in, and she did, saying that there was no point in MC while the A was ongoing. My W simply said that she had no intention on stopping her A ( not in words like that, it was more wishy washy, at this time, I'm not prepared .....garbage) . And I also stopped it, as I was advised by everyone on the boards that it would not be fruitful given the OM was still involved.

Your W is definitely going to have to realize this on her own. Whether you remain there or not will of course be up to you. Great work so far, and good luck. Stay strong

Dev

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If it were not for being on the board, you would probably be in such a state of shock at this point (after OM#2) that you would not be able to function well enough to protect yourself financially.

I believe you. And there's still a back story that I owe you one day that will make your jaw drop.

I was working with one bank yesterday trying to find out some old valuations at the time of my marriage. We tried for a half an hour to go at the problem in different ways unsuccessfully, when he finally asked me why I wanted to know this so badly. I laughed and explained D law. He apologized and we went back to work. 5 minutes later we found enough info to figure out what I needed. He wished me the best and charged me nothing.

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She's headed for a bad place. Don't know when, but it's coming.

Oh, ya. And I'm pretty sure at this point that it won't hit her until I am no longer around to rescue her. But the kids are going to need papa bear.

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I know you are suffering, but you sound stronger. You are going to make it.

I'm disappointed that we got here. I'm disappointed in her inability to confront issues without running away. But I have no doubt that I am going to make it. What choice do I have?

MC session was interesting today. Again, I started off with a totally positive message to learn from past, leave it behind and work on future.

W tried to demonize me, but MC doesn't let her off the hook so easily. W says "I tried and eventually I learned not to bother." MC replies "Oh, so you checked out of the M without communicating." Threw W totally off her script.

It's clear that W doesn't want to fix anything, but she is being challenged a lot. MC doesn't let her deny OM, either. She is right in W's face. And MC will not let anyone spew blame.

W tried to say that all her CC's that went to collection were just "bills I hadn't paid". MC shut her right down and told her she had been dishonest about spending.

The hardest one was W saying I never had any involvement with the children.

W then tried to say she was concerned about message to children. She didn't want them to think it was ok to stay in a bad marriage. I asked about the message that when things get tough, you stop communicating then run to someone outside the marriage.

I don't know the net outcome of this MC. I think this MC might not be bad if W were into fixing things - as it is, it's R talk during an A. It's rattling some of W's story line, and right now, I don't think anything can hurt my situation, it's that bad.

Anyway, W was gone for a couple of hours after the appt - probably to the posse. At dinner, she said she was going out tonight, so that's either posse or OM. I just shrugged. Those kids (that I have nothing to do with) and I have homework to do.

Dev, as always, thanks for your support.

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From my own experience, I'd be careful hoping the MC will influence or change your W's actions. I've been in a similar position where I was hoping for the MC to step in, and she did, saying that there was no point in MC while the A was ongoing.

Oh I really don't hope for much. We're doing 3 MC sessions, so I'm trying to get something out of them. MC was realistic with W about A - even if this M doesn't work, you two need to communicate to co-parent.

But I really don't think it hurts to have MC call BS on W's stories. Don't think it helps, but it rattles W's narrative and it's fun to watch.

As for W, she won't realize anything until she wants to go out and get a tan and buy a new pair of shoes, and realizes she has a car payment, mortgage, taxes, utilities, insurance, kids, and no income. And that of course, will be my fault.
And I wish any OM all the best with that.

Zee,

I know our financial situations are similar from what we've been advised, and I couldn't agree more, that's when some sort of reality will set in.

Glad to hear you've got a set plan and duration for the MC. It's always nice to have validation, just so hard when the WAW doesn't listen to anyone else anyways.

Sounds like your MC is proactive at least. My W has been continuing with her own IC with a focus on the past and her childhood. I like how your MC called her on her story. Smart man you are, aware of the situation. Sit back and enjoy it while you can. Keep making yourself strong.

Cheers

Dev

I'll tell you, we were both a little worried about the MC when we met her, she was a little loopy, but that first impression was wrong.

Anyway, one other funny thing today...
MC makes us take turns, and if we interrupt, she jumps us, big time. She takes no crap.

So it's my turn to respond to something W said, and I'm about 10 seconds in when W is shaking her head repeatedly. MC stopped me, and proceeded to dress down W, telling her she couldn't invalidate what I was saying by shaking her head, she had to listen to my perspective without any shaking or groaning or anything disrespectful.

Fortunately, earlier, in my first response to W, I had started by saying that I heard and appreciated her perspective, and while I had a different perspective, I could not deny that that was how she felt. I caught MC nodding at that point, so I knew I was ok.

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If it were not for being on the board, you would probably be in such a state of shock at this point (after OM#2) that you would not be able to function well enough to protect yourself financially.

By the way, let me take this opportunity once again to thank the board. Without this community, this would have been a very confusing time. I'd especially like to thank you Sandi, and Starsky for keeping me in line.

There were easily a half dozen times today in MC when W said "you didn't do x, until the last 6 months". That means my 180's were noticed. It was a small, small pleasure to be able to look to MC and say, "See, I'm taking this very seriously and trying to make the changes in me that will help out my relationships". I owe that to the DB philosophy and the continual encouragement found here.

Good job, Zew!

Originally Posted By: zew

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If it were not for being on the board, you would probably be in such a state of shock at this point (after OM#2) that you would not be able to function well enough to protect yourself financially.

I believe you. And there's still a back story that I owe you one day that will make your jaw drop.

I was working with one bank yesterday trying to find out some old valuations at the time of my marriage. We tried for a half an hour to go at the problem in different ways unsuccessfully, when he finally asked me why I wanted to know this so badly. I laughed and explained D law. He apologized and we went back to work. 5 minutes later we found enough info to figure out what I needed. He wished me the best and charged me nothing.

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She's headed for a bad place. Don't know when, but it's coming.

Oh, ya. And I'm pretty sure at this point that it won't hit her until I am no longer around to rescue her. But the kids are going to need papa bear.

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I know you are suffering, but you sound stronger. You are going to make it.

I'm disappointed that we got here. I'm disappointed in her inability to confront issues without running away. But I have no doubt that I am going to make it. What choice do I have?

MC session was interesting today. Again, I started off with a totally positive message to learn from past, leave it behind and work on future.

W tried to demonize me, but MC doesn't let her off the hook so easily. W says "I tried and eventually I learned not to bother." MC replies "Oh, so you checked out of the M without communicating." Threw W totally off her script.

It's clear that W doesn't want to fix anything, but she is being challenged a lot. MC doesn't let her deny OM, either. She is right in W's face. And MC will not let anyone spew blame.

W tried to say that all her CC's that went to collection were just "bills I hadn't paid". MC shut her right down and told her she had been dishonest about spending.

The hardest one was W saying I never had any involvement with the children.

W then tried to say she was concerned about message to children. She didn't want them to think it was ok to stay in a bad marriage. I asked about the message that when things get tough, you stop communicating then run to someone outside the marriage.

I don't know the net outcome of this MC. I think this MC might not be bad if W were into fixing things - as it is, it's R talk during an A. It's rattling some of W's story line, and right now, I don't think anything can hurt my situation, it's that bad.

Anyway, W was gone for a couple of hours after the appt - probably to the posse. At dinner, she said she was going out tonight, so that's either posse or OM. I just shrugged. Those kids (that I have nothing to do with) and I have homework to do.

Man, (as others have pointed out) you sound as good and as strong as I've heard you yet, Zew. There are people on here that I post to that I wonder whether or not THEY will make it. Not their marriages, but THEM (because we can NEVER predict whether or not the marriage will make it, and it's entirely outside of the control of the betrayed spouse anyway).

I know now that YOU will be okay. And fwiw, I think your wife is being a fool, and that you will be a GREAT "catch" -- for *someone* -- down the road. This may or may not be your wife (I happen to think it will be, but she may have to crash -- hard -- first), but you will find a much healthier, stronger relationship with a woman in your near future.

I'm confident of it.

Starsky

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I know now that YOU will be okay.

Thank you, sir. I never had any doubt, but I really appreciate you saying that it shows. I'm a persistent SOB, and I've seen the destructive emptiness of self-pity and have vowed never to waste much time there. I've always been pretty intent on getting from point A to point B. When finding myself at point C, I assess how I got there, take in the unintentional scenery, then replot my course.

My fear had been getting out and running my own social life again for the first time in 20 years, but I've confronted that with GAL over the last 6 months, and although it's not my comfort zone, I have met some fine people and enjoyed their company. While I'm nowhere near as connected as my W, I've never needed more than a few close friends.

I still worry about how she will support and care kids if I pull the plug on this carnival ride.

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This may or may not be your wife (I happen to think it will be, but she may have to crash -- hard -- first)

We just don't know, do we. I have my doubts, of course. W knows I care because of what is said in MC, but she's also seen me drop the rope in everyday living. The house isn't really "home" for her anymore - we all kind of expect her to just fly through on her way to somewhere else. I know she isn't comfortable there. Kids ask where mom is - she's not there when they get off the bus anymore, and she's out most evenings.

Her commissions aren't flying in, so her exit timing is shot, and shockingly, OM1 did not leave his W to rescue my W and live happily ever after with her. I have an inkling that OM2 is waning and there may be an OM3 on the rise. It really doesn't matter any more and I don't care to find out. She may learn that D'd men in bars will hit on anyone, and it doesn't mean a damned thing, but I think she's scrambling for a new plan. The crash will come. I don't know that I'd take her back if she didn't crash hard. (and I don't say that vindictively at all)

And I'm learning in MC that W has so, so much to fix. She's made some good progress with her T this year, but there's a lot to do, and I have no confidence in her T anymore. And the level of commitment I would need to take all that on... hell, I'm thinking post-nup, which is no way to run a M. (that may just be me being dramatic)

Anyhow, I have my own plan. I know a lot of unexpected things can happen in a short time. (all bad, so far! C'mon 7!) I'm keeping an open mind and haven't cashed out just yet.

But much more importantly, D12 becomes D13 today. I told W this morning to brace herself, because we now have a teenager to deal with. I've been really careful to give her all the time I can over the last 6 months, and it has been the best time I've ever spent.

Wow. I really hope you can do what is needed to DB and save R & M. Too many here saved ourselves, but something deep inside tells me you keep it up Zew. Focus on your daughter and son and GAL, 180 and all you can learn. Give it the best shot and be that super super DBing story! Praying and giving her to God Almighty may do the trick.

Funny you mention giving her to God.

I noticed a couple of months ago that she had a book in her nightstand. Don't know when she read it - could be years ago. It was about using the power of prayer to improve your marriage - if only I had clued in back then as to what she was feeling.

The ironic part was that the bookmark was at the start of the chapter on infidelity. Like maybe she hadn't read that chapter yet. Yowsa!

Your marriage is certainly going through trying times. I also see how much you want to keep your family together. If you have not spoken to a Divorce Busting Coach yet, please call me to discuss our program. The information in the books and online community participation is extremely helpful, but, nothing compares to the personal and specific stratgies our coaches provide. I urge you to call - 303-444-7004.

We all went out to birthday dinner tonight for D13. W was in pain just being there, having to sit next to me for 2 hours. Didn't wear her rings, texted all through dinner. Said all of 3 sentences. She headed straight off to bed once we got home. Fun way to live, that. We used to enjoy going out together so much.

I'm GALing out to dinner next week with a bunch that can talk and have a good time over a superb meal. Looking forward to it.

How awful for the birthday girl.

Yes, it was bad for D. Tonight was worse. Because we were out late at restaurant last night, we saved birthday cake and candles for tonight. W was going out, but D said she wanted her cake, so W took the 45 seconds to light the cake and sing. D didn't blow out the candles fast enough, so W did it for her. That could not stand, so we re-lit the candles and D blew them out. W left. Who knows where.

I lit a big birthday bonfire in the firepit and the kids and I played with that and made smores. I posted a nice picture of it on facebook. Sitting by the fire, D commented that this birthday had the most lame singing of happy birthday ever.

I sang her happy birthday right then and there.

We had a good time tonight. I love my daughter so much. She knows stuff is going on and she's been really good about it, and she knows I'm always here for her. And I think back to my W the other day trying to convince the MC that I had no involvement with my kids. Ha. The pictures on facebook say otherwise. You know, D will remember today forever, and the fact that W just couldn't get out of the house fast enough. Who does crap like this to their kid?

My h started eating the cake bc my son didnt come downstairs fast enough for happy birthday. It really sux to think the parent you chose to raise kids with is now...this stranger.

Keep being a safe listener encouraging your d to share her feelings, and know that sometimes you just cant make it better. You need to model how to cope with those feelings, a skill she will need for more than this event in her life.

W being a crummy parent is between d and w, and when d can verbalize that to her mom they will create whatever relationship theyre going to have. What you say and do can make it worse but cant make it better. Be sure and tell d often that this is not her fault. (I could see being a teenage girl, since my whole world is about me, if my moms being a jerk there must be something i said or did or wasnt good enough for her to love me.)

Originally Posted By: adinva

My h started eating the cake bc my son didnt come downstairs fast enough for happy birthday. It really sux to think the parent you chose to raise kids with is now...this stranger.

Keep being a safe listener encouraging your d to share her feelings, and know that sometimes you just cant make it better. You need to model how to cope with those feelings, a skill she will need for more than this event in her life.

W being a crummy parent is between d and w, and when d can verbalize that to her mom they will create whatever relationship theyre going to have. What you say and do can make it worse but cant make it better. Be sure and tell d often that this is not her fault. (I could see being a teenage girl, since my whole world is about me, if my moms being a jerk there must be something i said or did or wasnt good enough for her to love me.)

Wrapping this up and starting a new thread:

living with WAW who hasn't walked yet (5)