22 Years; He's Filed: Need Advice on Boundaries

Divorcebusting.com

Hello Everyone,

I am a lurker, having read many posts over the last two months which have been inspirational and very helpful. Thanks to you all for your experience and insight! I tried to post this intro a few weeks ago but I guess it got lost in the ozone...?

I just haven't had the energy to tell my story again and almost don't know where to start. (Plus, it sort of interferes with my "focus on myself" plan every time I go over the gory details.)

I have the books, DB/DR and have read them cover to cover more than once. (I went through three highlighters, in three colors, so I think I've got the basics down.) I have put into place everything I could and now--at day 45 of DB--I see a definite improvement in my interactions with my husband.

My situation is complicated in that there was not only a MOW at work over the last year, but a long term porn addiction/intimacy issue for him which caused him to build many walls between us over almost three decades together.

ED was an ongoing issue for him, beginning when we were first dating. Over time, it waxed and waned, but never really went away. (Long story there, details later if applicable.)

He survived a terrible childhood and has the "issues" to go with that. I accepted that about him unconditionally because they were not things that negatively impacted our marriage. (I thought) He never wanted to explore this aspect of himself. If I pushed, he retreated and I saw it was not going to help anything.

Now of course I see that's where we were destined to go wrong, but you know what they say about "hindsight being 20/20." This background info is in no way an excuse for his choices; just an explanation why I didn't react in a different way years ago. I had compassion for him and was willing to accept who he was, baggage and all. I accepted the good with the bad and I took my vows seriously.

But for that, he had ALL the qualities I wanted in a mate; loyal, loving, honest, treated me very well, lots in common, smart, accomplished, attractive to me, great voice, great hands...just a wonderful man who my family adored and who worked hard--showing his love for me in so many ways--even if our sexual relationship was not as satisfying as I would have liked.
I heard from everyone all the time how lucky I was! I like a lot of freedom; have many interests and never wanted to be joined at the hip like some couples. We had mutual interests as well and were very compatible. I thought I had it all.
He loved me and showed this in so many ways.
He supported me, also showing this through words and actions.
He gave me my freedom, because he trusted me... (rightfully so since I have never even so much as seriously flirted with another since marrying him over 22 years ago)...but now I see that his "Go out and have a great time, don't worry about coming home early!" was so he could spend the evening "indulging himself" online. In retrospect, I don't know how I missed this.
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Well....

I got the ILYBINILWY speech last spring, he said he'd find a marriage counselor for us to go to (never did) he "didn't think he'd ever loved me" ...the whole speech.
I asked about infidelity and he denied it. He said he was under a lot of stress at work, there are other stressors too, unrelated to our R, and I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I was upset, didn't understand what was happening, but he was unreachable and working LOTS OF LATE HOURS for crises at work...Yeah, right.

Fast forward to concrete proof of MOW in September 2013.
He had those cold shark eyes when he said.
"Oh. So I guess you know."
I threw him out then and there.

He was out, then back home, back and forth several times, all because I wanted him to go; I couldn't handle him being here. I was distraught, horrified.
He never wanted to leave, just wanted to "get along", but how could I be civil with him after what he did? Why did he even want to be here? He stated emphatically that he had no feelings for me, marrying me was a mistake he was finally strong enough to rectify...
I was devastated--sick, couldn't sleep. I felt the betrayal physically and lost 30 pounds I couldn't afford to... I was a wreck.

I had trusted him, never snooped, never EVER! I was betrayed to my core.
I felt so violated....
He did end the OW relationship the day after I caught him, pretty sure that's true, (I had spies) he went for STD testing, went transparent, gave me all his passwords, credit cards, GPS on his phone.
He basically agreed to EVERYTHING I ASKED---EXCEPT:

He would not say he loved me, or that he didn't love her, and the best he could offer was a half-hearted "let's see how it turns out" attitude towards our M. That wasn't good enough for me at the time. I wanted him to beg for my forgiveness, among other things.
I ran him through the ringer emotionally countless times until I finally ran out of venom to spew.
But not before he filed for Divorce; I think because to him it provided an escape from an intolerable situation.

I did everything wrong before I read DB/DS... now I see that I had an opening that I lost forever when he was amenable to trying to work things out.

My reaction to the PA discovery was so out of character for me. I said and did things I would have never imagined. I wanted him dead. I wanted her dead. It would have been easier. I could have lived the rest of my life believing he was the man I had relied on and loved all these years.
I felt the weight of all the years of MY sacrifice sexually--- for what? To have him cheat on me?

I felt that if anyone was justified in having an affair--it was me! I was livid.
How DARE HE! HE felt neglected sexually? Really? I felt I was the one who was turned away, tuned out, neglected, who made concessions....I wasn't perfect but he's saying he's been miserable for 22 years but never bothered to mention it? Is he some kind of Saint? Suffering in silence? I was in shock.

I wish I'd had DB info then!!!!
Even though my over-the-top reaction was completely justified, it drove him further from me.
(He can't handle conflict, strong emotion, vulnerability--that's the root of our whole problem.)

Well, I let it all hang out about his impotence, you name it. How we never had children, he stole the best years of my life, only to let me go through menopause to announce that he didn't love me, never loved me, and married me out of some type of obligation. ((???HUH???))) Saddled me with a mountain of debt, an unsustainable lifestyle, so many missed opportunities... I felt like our whole M was a lie.
I ran him into the ground verbally, emotionally. I regret being so cruel, but I was out of my mind. I am not a cruel person. He was shocked.

So after four months of crazy-making altercations,it comes to light that he has had an ongoing "preference" (his words) for satisfying himself solo rather than being intimate with me. He told me that IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THIS WAY since before we met!
Yet, also according to his new script, our "boring" sex life was MY fault because he was "never attracted to me". ????
So why continue to go out with me when we first met, move in with me, marry me, live with me for almost 30 years? He had no answer.

And here I was settling for once a week/month or much less--- because he "doesn't like it in the morning/night/weekdays...". Are you kidding me???
He said the adultery was just because he "prefers shallow relationships and porn" for sexual satisfaction, that the A was just an escalation of fantasy into real life, "stupid, but it's what I wanted" he said....."Can you let it go NOW?" he said to me. "I am too old to change (60's) I don't want to change."
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So that's it.

He's still out of the house, divorce can't be finalized until he can prove we've been separated for two years.

Meanwhile, I am still a vibrant woman with needs that have gone unmet for so long because I believed in love and fidelity... and I fear I may have become dysfunctional because of this relationship. I hope not. But dating? I can't imagine being intimate with anyone ever again.

And... his MOW--they still work together.
And I am supposed to be (His words): "OK with it because we're getting a divorce anyway, so it doesn't matter." According to him, nothing matters because divorce is a "Get out of jail free" pass!

And of course he made comparisons between his MOW and myself to justify his actions which I only realized after the fact.
"SOME people are more SENSUAL than you are...." was in his list of complaints, along with:
1. I had four boxes of dishwasher powder (two for one coupons)
2. I had canvas shopping bags hanging by the front door--hey, I'm environmentally conscious!
3. I had rolling cart of toiletries. (We're remodeling and I don't have storage in the bathroom.)

That's the best he came up with about my "shortcomings".
No complaints, not a word about being unhappy, business as usual and less sex than usual but honestly I hardly noticed. Weeks, months...it snowballs. It was our life. I had made my peace with it years ago and really wasn't even angry.

So the betrayal was worse than the sex, as were the many lies. That he shared intimate details of our life, my personal struggles, with a stranger. He lied to me, to her--and really hurt us both, not that I have any sympathy for her.

The adultery went on for almost a year, while I, trusting fool that I am, took him at his word.
I since found all the incriminating evidence that proves it was a lot more that he'd let on---thousands of dollars, gifts, hotels---all the time he was treating me terribly and wouldn't say why he was so angry with me.

During that time, even though I didn't know about the A, I threatened to leave more than once because of the emotional abuse and he seemed just dandy with that. I didn't even recognize him, he was so cruel and I didn't understand why he was treating me as his enemy. I hadn't done anything to cause him to treat me that way. I was getting pretty fed up with the way he was treating me, that's for sure.

There is a lot more to this too, but let's just leave it at:
He could have lost his job, his home, his ability to earn a living by this inappropriate relationship.
He was highly involved, hundreds of phone calls/texts/expenses per month. It was like he was out of his mind. He became a monster to me.

And his "justification"? I wasn't "giving him" sex!!!!!
He felt he could righteously indulge himself on some level, after years of denying me.
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Fast forward to today.

He got angry when I told him to either come clean about ALL his secrets over the years (porn, sexual encounters, etc.) or "yes, then divorce is the only answer". He called a lawyer that day in December 2013, filed that week.

He filed the first time... let it lapse, I don't think his heart was in it, he just wanted me to stop confronting him...
(Mind-reading I know!) We'd had some big blow-ups about the porn thing, his denial, backpedaling, his new fancy laptop that I'm locked out of... not even about the OW, but about the PORN. I think that's the bigger issue for sure.

It was the day after another huge argument about the porn problem that he reinstated the divorce and had me served. At which point he asked if he can "just come home and have a quiet evening or are you going to be angry with me?"
I said no. "Get help, or get out" and he's been out since then, Feb. 2014.

I don't understand this behavior. I have stopped trying to figure it out because it makes no sense.

He says he wants a D but doesn't seem to have worked out all the long range implications...
He wants to live here--I guess pretending to be a single guy while enjoying whatever perks he feels still exist for him. That is not an option for me.

There is a whole lot more but as I said, I'm tired of the story.

I'm in therapy, have been since BD. He was seeing an IC, but quit after serving me. I guess because he figures D will solve all his "problems". In a sense, I guess that's true. Get rid of me and porn addiction/adultery will be a non-issue.

One thing I can say is that this hasn't diminished my self-esteem. I am not perfect and have plenty of things I need to work on, for myself or any R I might be in.
But I did not cause this and I can't fix it. I am addressing the few things he's mentioned over the years that bothered him, but there isn't much to go on. He had few complaints and I thought our marriage was pretty decent.

Still, I am working really hard on myself, the GAL, 180, all that.
I am being the best "me" I can be. It's a little sad because I pretty much always have been that way...he just stopped seeing me at all, stopped appreciating me, or loving me, I guess. He just built walls, and tuned me out... it was insidious and slow. I only now see how he accomplished this so completely.

I'm not sure I want this marriage unless he can do the work to finally deal with his issues. He has tried to blame me, but I'm not buying it. He and I both know what's really going on...but it's painful for him. I get it.

I am just focusing on myself and figuring out what I need to do next....

He is going to have to deal with his own baggage, or not.

The reason for DB is to calm things down enough to see if there is anything worth salvaging or not.
Although he has been a total chit for pretty much the last 2 years, prior to that he was a wonderful husband.
It is that man I am hoping will make a return, and who will make the choice to finally deal with his issues so he can be better. For himself, maybe with me, maybe not.

But I got married for keeps. I am not the type to give up on someone because they go through a crisis. However, I won't spend the rest of my life suffering for them either...

So... I'm on the fence and DB-ing my heiney off.
I have put a lot of blame on him for his decisions. I did not make him lie to me, keep secrets, cheat on me. But blaming him didn't help anything, as you all know.
Whatever I might have done in our M, there was nothing that could justify those choices.
Still, I am taking responsibility for my part in things in our overall R and working hard to identify and resolve the issues that I brought to the M.
I am continuing with therapy even though he is not.
It's for me, to be better, regardless of what happens with us.

And Divorce Busting--- IT DOES WORK!
I am far from having busted anything, but I can see a major improvement in our R so far. We are less tense, and are able to work together, not avoiding each other. There is more of a connection than there has been in awhile.

All in all, it's good.
And shifting the focus to myself and having a plan to work from has really helped ground me. I feel less at odds, more in control, measuring my baby steps and controlling myself and my thoughts.

It's not easy, but it has been worth it.

He is much better around me, no doubt because he is no longer terrified I'm going to rip him a new one every time he opens his mouth...

But I'm still angry, hurt, devastated, unsure of the future... and I have a lot of decisions to make.

I told him that although I didn't see D as any kind of solution, more like "out of the frying pan and into the fire", if that's what he really wanted then I couldn't stop him.
I did say I was going to take all the time the law allows to get my ducks in a row before I move/settle, etc.
That I wasn't going to make a knee jerk decision while in this state of mind and I needed to make sure I did what what best for me. He needed to do what was best for him... and my (private) hope is that with time and more DB-ing on my part he will be able to restore something in himself that he seems to have lost.
But I know that's up to him, not me. But it is my hope for him as someone I care for.

So I'm here, he's at a friend's indefinitely.
He wants to move back, into the basement....that's the part I'm going to need advice about, boundaries, etc.

I am very conflicted on that.

Enough for now....

---GoatGal

So sorry for your pain. Glad you decided to join us. You need support. I am not for certain what MOW is. Married other woman?

I know you want him to apologize and make amends, stop cheating and using porn, etc. You want him to put forth some effort and claim you as his love. But so far, when given a choice.....he rather leave, file for D, than do the work.

So I think you have to decide where that leaves you. If he does none of the things you stated, then what do you plan to do?

Have you seen a lawyer to get legal advice about the steps to make, if needed? I would say that you need to be smart and protect yourself.

Do you have any relatives that live near by? Do you have good supporting friends?

Btw, what is your age?

Sorry, I thought I had that info posted in my signature.
I also see that my earlier post has showed up so I apologize for the double entries.

I am 54, he is 63
No kids, but a farm full of rescues.
Married 22 years, together almost 30.

(Now that I see my posts I'll try and straighten this out. I've been using my phone since my laptop died, trouble logging on, etc.)

I'll try and answer all questions here:

Someone did respond to my first posting and said that I seemed very angry and intent on punishing my H for all he's done, essentially putting all the blame on him.

I was being very honest when writing my intro to this board, even though it wasnt a pretty picture. I wanted to share my deepest feelings, one of the most intense being anger. I felt so betrayed; he was my best friend and the person I trusted the most. I am not an angry person normally but this experience brought out a side of me-- well, even he said "You've got to stop. This IS NOT WHO YOU ARE."

The ugly truth is, it was my reaction. I regret it now. I said things I wish I could take back. Things I would never have said because they were hurtful. But he was right. That's not who I am and when I finally got some perspective I did stop freaking out...

Also true that for several weeks there I wanted him to feel the whole destructive force of his actions, for him to be in as much pain as I was.

Now I see that he is suffering too, and although I still have my moments of frustration and disappointment, I keep this to myself.

Yes, I have an attorney and I have done everything I can at this point to make sure I am protected.

I have seen continued improvement in our interactions with smiling, laughing, some casual touches, working together. He comes by every day and all weekend to help on the farm, so I see him daily. We text back and forth all the time, always say "goodnight" to each other...

DB helped me a lot; giving me a focus outside of my pain and a "plan" to manage my actions. I set goals for myself and I'm making steady progress

MOW is "married other woman" with kids, still living with hubby.
I believe that's done.

I understand that he may never want to deal with his issues, and our marriage could end like this, with a big mess that both of us would prefer to forget.
But he is the only one who can make that choice.

I am not blameless in our marriage difficulties. I have tried to figure out what things bothered him but he never complained about anything until he started his affair and then everything I said, did, or didn't do was wrong.

I am working on improving those things about myself which probably need improving anyway, most are probably things he would appreciate.

I don't feel that I have to accept blame for his choice to be unfaithful, nor his abuse of pornography to the point where he no longer had interest in me, his wife.
The porn he kept hidden from me for almost three decades and he went to great lengths to make sure I never knew the extent of it.
I think that's one reason I was so angry.
It wasn't just an affair, it was discovering that during our entire marriage he had been lying to me and carrying an affair of sorts that stole whatever real intimacy we could have had.

I really felt like I'd discovered I'd married a serial killer or something. (Not really but you get the idea.) It was an entire hidden life of webcams and fancy computer stuff. He doesn't want to go to joint therapy, he had said he had concerns about telling me the truth, so I wonder how far it went. Maybe I don't want to know.
I found a lot of stuff on his computer early on, and I can't un-see it. I wish I could.

Finally everything made sense. I'd been thinking it was me.
I wasn't pretty enough, sexy enough... The whole thing.

So if my anger seems out of proportion, that's part of the reason.

Also because he pushed me further and further away so he could have time alone to do his thing... He paid very little attention to me and had lots of excuses. I felt neglected and lonely but didn't want to nag. He was under so much pressure at work---so I believed.
And yet he felt I was ignoring him, and that justified him having an extramarital relationship with a woman young enough to be his granddaughter.
(Irrelevant, I know but, yikes.)

I don't know what the future holds.
I love him; always have. Always will.
We have a great history.
But I see clearly that there are a lot of problems to overcome.

I don't want to go down without a fight. We both have a lot to lose.
But now that so much is out in the open, there would have to be huge changes. And I can only change myself.

Thanks for listening.
Sorry if my phone typing is all over the place..

Thanks Sandi,

No I don't have family close, but I do have wonderful friends and great support there.

They have been a lifesaver.

So for The "GAL"... I'm lucky, I had a good head start on that.

There are so many parts, that i nod and go uhuh!
I'm us plenty of other here as well. You saw a light at the end of the tunnel and never suspected it was a train. I didn't. I had confidence in the beginning as I thought the new woman was a stranger, not she had been around for some time. Now I'm not so sure, I'm just getting out and on with it. Not much else to do really.,

Everything I've said for at least 12months was wrong and awful. The worst of the worst.
He now tells me lies, and his actions in public show him wrong. Just watch the actions, they are the teller.

Hey All,

I was thinking last night about whether or not I should be taking some responsibility for my husband's choices to cheat and to lie to me about a problem he knew existed prior to our meeting, and one he said has caused him to do things which were destructive to our marriage over time.

I was not a perfect spouse.
But I wasn't so awful and deaf to his complaints that he had no other choice.

As I as, he was a wonderful husband. I was under the impression that things were good between us. I was happy.

I also wasn't aware that there was a side of him he kept hidden.
(And not because I would have been judgmental. More than once I tried to suggest getting help for his ED, as kindly as I could. He knew he could talk to me, that I wanted it to be better, and was open minded. But it's a difficult topic and I respected his desire to deal with it himself.)

There were many things he was better at doing in our relationship than I was. (I think of the Five Love Languages--I think we missed some cues for each other there.)
Those are the things I am working on improving in myself, for myself, for him, and for anyone else in my life.

I would have given him anything he wanted within reason. All he had to do was let me know he was unhappy, that there were things that were bothering him. I'm not a mindreader and we are told all the time not to try. He said he was happy, he acted happy... how was I supposed to know?

But I never drove him to another woman, or to porn, by being a prude, unavailable, condescending, or critical. He had plenty of other choices he could have made, except the hundreds of choices he made secretly to do what he did throughout our marriage.

If I can only change and work on myself, and I can't "make him" do anything, (like love me, or come back to our marriage), then I can't "make him" cheat, lie, or turn his back on me either.

Just to be clear, we're not talking about a guy who occasionally enjoys some porn... we're talking about someone who has had an overall preference for it, to a point where it seriously impacted his ability to be intimate in real relationships even prior to ours, and is now at a level where he prefers it to any real-life intimacy and is willing to divorce rather than give it up.
It's a real addiction, and he is every inch the addict.

So me being responsible for this is like a wife being responsible for her husband's alcoholism. He may say "You drive me to drink", but that's just his way of blaming her and giving himself an excuse.
But he doesn't need an excuse to drink...

Sorry if this sounds like a rant. I suppose it is, in a sense.
But I think a lot of folks don't get the nature of porn addiction. I'm on another board similar to this one where I'm getting support from wives in my situation and in the long term marriages, the stories are nearly identical.

My description of him, his history, and our shared history is just by way of background information. My initial post was setting the stage for what happened after and I tried to portray the events accurately so everyone would know how it went down.

I'm not proud of how I acted then.
I had an extreme stress reaction and lost 30 pounds in three months, threw up often, couldn't sleep--had to see a shrink to get an Rx for Valium... I was completely devastated and in a state of shock. Being kind to him wasn't on the top of my list at the time.

The ability to see him as a real person with flaws and who really didn't mean to hurt me; who was driven by things I can't comprehend and hurting me was only a side-effect, that clarity only came after I was able to get some distance from the situation with him out of the house.

I am still dealing with the aftermath, still too thin, too sleepless... but I am trying to keep my chin up, have some dignity, and bear the weight of it. There is no way around this--I have to go through it.
It's really, really hard. And terribly lonely.
The person I have always looked to as my source of comfort and protection is the source of my pain.
Yet I am responsible for alleviating my own suffering and through therapy and lots of self-help sources I am slowly achieving that goal.

I am a strong person and now I have other goals too, a plan, my GALing and 180s have helped a lot. DB has given me tools to get on track with something other than worrying about his every move and feeling like a victim.
I am detaching. Slowly. That's also really hard to do.

He and his behavior are no longer my focus now and haven't been for several weeks.

I'm working hard on "letting him go"...
Easier said than done.

I do hope--every day---that he will see that a life with me, our "kids", and all we have built is better than a lonely life in front of a computer screen, and maybe he will, but then again, maybe he won't.

But there is nothing wrong with having hope, as long as expectations aren't attached.
So it's "hope for the best, be prepared for the worst."

And it's another day.

Here I go again.

SMILE! ;--)

Here's my DBing Plan so far

The 180- Part One:
In the past he was big on phone calls, I liked to talk in person, text or email for base-touches during the day.
I am walking a fine line between not pursuing, yet being connected, receptive and available when he initiates. I tried going dim/dark several times over the last few months and he later said he thought I was angry. He didn't initiate at all, but responded almost immediately when I contacted him. With that in mind, I have initiated little communications throughout the day pretty regularly, which he responds well to. And he initiates as well about day-to-day things, mostly, but sometimes about his feelings and how he wishes he "could wash this all away". Big step for him.

Until today I have avoided the phone as much as possible; hearing his voice sometimes upsets me (like going to the grocery store and shopping as a single woman) because I love his voice and it is such a trigger to hear it on the phone.
He also stopped calling me over time.
So just now I bit the bullet and risked calling him....

He has done the lion's share of the physical labor on the farm because I have back problems which make doing certain chores difficult. I have good days and bad days. However, since he's been gone I've been trying not to show how bad my "bad" days are and have been doing a lot more, even though I've been feeling a lot worse. (Better living through Chemistry!) He has never complained about this, but it's something that I guess I could do more of, and frankly I've had little choice living here on my own.

So my first phone call to him in weeks was to offer to take over the farm chores tonight and give him a break, because...

Yesterday evening when we were working with the goats I saw he was irritable and although at first I assumed it was because of me (!) I decided to ask him about work and draw him out a bit on that. He ended up giving me an earful about a few issues going on, how tough it's been, changes in legislation, etc. He traditionally doesn't talk about work, saying once he gets home he wants to forget about it, why rehash it, and it just stresses him out more. I wonder if my acceptance of that somehow communicated to him that I wasn't interested. That was not/is not the case, so I figured I would try lending an ear.

So back to the phone call. After my heart was done pounding and he called me back, we had a nice conversation, he was really grateful that I offered to cover for him tonight, told me how it helps because he has to be at work extra early in the morning and he appreciates it.

I had to stop myself from feeling dejected/rejected when I started to end the call (first!) and there was no "I love you" like there has always been. Maybe that's the thing I was dreading about the phone. Not what I would hear, but what I wouldn't. I should have prepared myself better for that... and his tone at the end was awkward, almost like he felt weird not saying it. I think we both did. At least that's how the "goodbye" went. I didn't expect an "I love you", it was only after it didn't happen that I realized it was an unconscious expectation. Ugh. I'll do better next time.

All in all though, those three things worked out as planned. I will try more of the same and keep you posted.

Oh, and the "advice" I need specifically is about setting boundaries for him moving into the basement as he has consistently said he wants to do.

Most everything I've read so far suggests that we have a better chance if we're living together in some manner.
But I know for myself that if his plan is to behave as though he were already single, it will not be a healthy environment for me.
I don't know what he has in mind, really, that's a discussion I expect will be coming soon once the downstairs is fully habitable.

He has a legal right to be here, but I don't have a legal obligation to be OK with it.

I don't think I could handle knowing he was out "dating" right under my nose. I think it's disrespectful and if that's what he wants to do, then he should get his own place. He says being here is because it's too expensive to get his own place and he needs to be here for the animals... but then divorce is going to mean the exact same thing, and I've already said if that we end up divorced, I will probably move away.
(Too many memories here, family is elsewhere, I wouldn't choose to live in this area unless I was his wife, not likely I'll ever meet anyone else around here... a whole bunch of reasons.)

So I don't know how hard a line to take.

Then there's the porn thing. I know it's not something they can just wave a magic wand over and be A-OK, but I think I need to know that he's pursuing recovery and is not expecting me to live up here while he's visiting the Babes in Pornland all the time.

It's a bottom line thing.
I think the only way I could be OK with him living in the same house is if he will respect me as his wife. While we might not end up together, if he wants to act as though he is single then I think it's too much to ask of me to just say "Fine". Because I am not fine with it.

I guess I'd like to know what others think.

And as for the coaching sessions, I think that'd be great. But my H holds the purse strings. It would be hard explaining that amount of money...

---GG

Today was my therapist appointment.
Clearly she thinks I should have my head examined for "trying to cobble this thing back together".
I feel as though I need to explain that I'm not willing to hang up my marriage of 22 years...

On the upside, she is happy with my progress since BD. I can talk about the situation without bawling my eyes out, I've gained five pounds, not throwing up any more, setting and achieving goals for myself.

Supposedly my attitude is getting pretty healthy.

Yay!

After that I took myself out for lunch, was hit on by a young man, (nice boost), and chatted with other patrons and waitstaff. An enjoyable meal.

Afterwards I went to look at RVs and trailers. . I might be able to afford one. Just me and my dog. That'd be OK.
I have this idea that if I end up divorced I'll just be a hobo musician, "Have Gig, Will Travel".

(OFF the books, of course! : )

Yesterday I tried reaching out more via text, friendly but very open ended, and his responses were way better than I expected.
I think in our case going really dim is bad since it might seem like rejection.

(I was really mad at BD I told him how much I hated him, didn't want him around... Of course I regret this now but it was how I felt at the time. No doubt he probably believes I will always feel like that and I don't.)

So he has been hesitant to reach out to me.

I also realized that by going dim I was "testing" him and creating expectations which led to disappointment.
I would wait for him to initiate communication, he wouldn't, I'd start thinking all kinds of crazy reasons "why" that could be (basically nonsense, thinking back), ending up angry that he thought so little of me to find out if I was even alive.

I live in a rural area, travel at night on my own often for gigs, work with large animals and power tools during the day-- he knows the potential for serious injury and other problems is high...

I could be dead for days and no one would know; that's a fact.

But it is no longer his job to be my protector.

I have to let that go. It's hard.

To that end I am setting up other methods for check-ins with neighbors and friends.
Sometimes when my H does ask that I check in when I get home safely, that it's just because he worries that the animals would suffer...
But I push that thought back. Way back.
It stings though.

On the upside; I am actually HAPPY most of the time. I'm basically a happy person and I have a lot of things in my life that give me joy. I find joy in everyday stuff. Even with this situation, I have found a bright side. I am learning things about myself I would have never learned; found an internal strength I didn't know I had.
I've found wonderful supportive people in the most unlikely places and my pain and vulnerability allowed a connection that I don't think ever would have happened.
I've learned who my real friends are
I've learned that the things about myself that I value will not be diminished by this--they will be amplified.

He has given me a gift in the oddest way; he has forced me to re-evaluate what's important to me at this stage of my life, made me distill those things down to their basic essence.

I see much more clearly. I know I'll be fine no matter what.
There are hard times ahead, but I'm "in-training" for this marathon.

I guess this is the first phase of really detaching...

It's scary because part of me fears once I really detach, then I'll be like him.
No longer caring, no longer feeling love, just looking at him as someone I once made the center of my life.
That wouldn't be a bad thing if there was no chance of R.

But the nagging thought is that once I finally do "get over him" and completely let go, THAT'S when he'll want me back. And it will be too late.

Has anyone else had this conflict about how much to let go?

Well, I slipped this morning.

Got an email from H asking that I change our streaming video account to "my" credit card.

All our cards are held jointly, he doesn't use his, except one. That should have been a clue.
He is paying the bills. Both our names are on all accounts, but we have different cards.
We discussed this before and he swore he was not going to try and saddle me with debt, nor cut me off financially. We agreed (I thought) that any changes in our financial situation would be discussed together, yet ultimately he has complete control. His style would be to try and "sneak" in changes slowly, thereby avoiding discussion or conflict.

Immediately my heart started to pound, I felt sick to my stomach, my hands were--ARE----shaking.
(So much for my detaching! I was right back to ground zero in a flash. I think the detaching goes in waves. Some days I almost don't care. Other days, like today, I find myself in a panic.)

My thoughts went like this:

OMG---he is starting to try and separate our spending/debt during this time because he is moving towards a total splitting of our finances in preparation for the BIG D!

That thought led to:
OMG, all my DB is not working! Thought things were calming down!
What happened yesterday to make him do this?
What difference does it make, he's paying for it?
Is he planning to try and stick with me this debt after D?
I'll never be able to pay it. I'll have to declare bankruptcy! Doesn't he know that? How can he do this to me? Does he not care AT ALL????
Doesn't he see how he's destroying everything?

Incidentally, for the last several years I have not "worked" in the traditional sense. I have been a Jill of All Trades, picking up DJ/teaching/music gigs and basically running the farm and dog rescue at home. We talked about me working part time often over the years, but he always said we'd save money if I didn't because it would bump us up into a higher tax bracket, being a wash.

So I am COMPLETELY DEPENDENT on his income at this time. And I do get freaked out. I'm 54, the job market [censored], chronic pain condition... my options are limited.

And THOSE freak-out thoughts led to a total scouring of our accounts, credit cards, phone records, to see if he'd called his lawyer, his former "Friend" (they still work together!), or any "evidence" that would give me a handle on what *might* be going on.

What did this do for me?

NADA. Unless you count feeling even more nauseous and stressed at every turn. AND--I found NOTHING that was good or bad. Just the usual expenses and calls.

I told myself not to go there---but I felt compelled. And now, even though I found nothing, I feel worse.

So what everyone says is true--the SNOOPING DOES NOT HELP.
Really, it doesn't.

What DID help was:

Reminding myself that it's just something he said. Believe NONE OF IT.

He simply could have been pissy about not living at home and being able to enjoy those movies because I kicked him out. He'd been out with our friend and had a few drinks. Sent this email late at night.
Who knows. WHO CARES?

I remind myself: I'll be fine. I will survive. It's not over til it's over. I have a great lawyer. I have legal rights.
I CHOOSE TO BE HAPPY.

Period.

Definitely true that our thoughts drive our emotions.

My question is: How do I respond to this email?

My first thought was:
Don't.
Followed by: Don't. Until I calm down and I'm not reactive.
Then I thought I'd just say "sure" but never "get around to it".

Or "Sure!" and make the change. Just let it be. (This is my #1 choice now.)

I thought about adding:
"If you're planning on phase one to start splitting up our debts with the intent of making me pay for my expenses after a divorce, that's your choice, but please let me know so I can curtail my spending. There is no way I'll ever be able to pay any of this back and I want to avoid bankruptcy."

That sounds like thinly veiled guilt-inducing, sanctimonious crap. So I won't say that.

But I want to know if that's his plan because I do travel a lot---because he wants me to---but no way will I be able to pay those expense back after a D.

How do I go about this without putting him on the defensive but finding out what I think I need to know?

Thanks!

--GG

I am waiting for advice before I respond to his email...

Here's one thing I did right:

I went through this by myself, and did not engage with him.
I got on here and started writing instead of firing off a response to him when I was upset.

I am getting better and better at that.

And I see clearly that my actions to start checking everything for clues was counter-productive to my PMA.

He will be here in a while and IF I talk to him when I'm worked up, he will see I'm upset by my tone and my expression.

I am working on keeping my emotions to myself. I am not a good liar generally, and terrible when it's about something emotional.

Meanwhile, my strategy is to NOT be around him until I am able to get myself into my "Happy Place!!"

(And that whole thing about vibrating at a higher level is true! I was way up there yesterday and I swear, everywhere I went people were smiling at me, talking to me out of the blue...I was "open" and "happy" and this seems to be infectious.)

Happy Place--Here I Come! I have my tricks... playing ukulele on the sunny deck serves two purposes. It makes me happy, and he can hear it. He KNOWs that I'm happy if I'm playing.

That'll work.

I'm going to keep journaling here and hope I get some feedback.

I know there are lots of people on this forum who need help, so I'm just using it as a tool to get it all out there. I'm doing pretty well so far, but I could really use some wisdom because I'm trying to figure this all out on my own.
-------------------------------------

Yesterday was WEIRD. I got into my "happy mode" when H was here. He is supposedly ONLY here "for the animals" but he kept coming around where I was and walking in and out of what is now "MY" living area like he'd never left.
I was honesty happy with my day once I got into it, playing the hot jazz I love, bopping around the house, singing, cleaning up for him being here and doing nice little things for him (making an appetizer plate, setting out clean towels and sheets for him since he was staying on the couch, clearing off half the bathroom sink for his stuff, putting out a vase of fresh flowers, all things I would do for any "guest" I cared for.) all this with no expectations--just enjoying my day, and doing what I do.

And---he did a lot of nice things for me without my asking... talked a lot about work, stuff he wanted to get done, what I thought about new light fixtures for the house, (that neither one of us will be able to keep if we D!), just sort of talking to me more than he has in YEARS. He was actually following me around talking non-stop. It was BIZARRE... It was freaking me out, because I kept thinking we were going to get into R land and I really didn't want to go there.

So I listened. And listened. And listened some more. Validated... all good. I left the room first, cut it off first, all that stuff.
============================

I had a friend's birthday party last night, something he'd never go to even prior to BD, and he was going to stay here at the house to "pet-sit for me". (That's what he calls it. I think he just wants to be here.)

I made a point of looking fantastic when I went out the door, hair done, perfume, a flattering brightly colored short dress, the whole enchilada. I even asked his opinion on which high heels to wear! (He chose the pink ones. Good choice!)
Truth is--he hasn't looked at me in years, not as a whole person or attractive woman, so I was trying to get him to finally "see" me. And he did.

I left him alone to "have a GREAT night!" with the dogs...and I also
left some things around that I'm sure he saw, like the card from my old college friend (male) who I visited last week, the brochure on the RVs and trade-in value on my vehicle (my first--and maybe best--living alternative if we D), my to-do list which included things that support his vision of us going our separate ways, like looking into the cost of COBRA for health insurance, etc.

I had a great time at the party and got home around 2 AM.
He and I chatted a bit and it was obvious he'd been here "drinking and thinking". (Don't ask me how I know, we've been together almost 30 years.)
I could almost see the smoke coming out of his ears...
----------------------------------------
This morning was more of the same.
He no longer lives here but he's "allowed" to come and go from the basement since that's all he needs to do to complete his chores while he's here. Yet here he was, coming upstairs into "my" part of the house without asking, just like he still lived here. Hanging around me, chatting me up.
Traditionally, he has texted "Can I come up?" from the lower level because I've said I need to have my space respected, that I need some kind of sanctuary.
Today, he was acting as though nothing had ever happened.

I'm not sure what to make of this.

I was almost shooing him out the door, saying "go enjoy your day! It's beautiful outside..."

(It's his birthday today. He didn't acknowledge mine, but I just couldn't do that to him so I left him a simple card last night. The card was already printed with "I hope you get what you want" and I wrote, "I mean this", and also "Nothing was 'appropriate", and 'Nothing' was inappropriate, so it's just this card and a simple wish for you." And I meant it.
He thanked me for it this morning.)

He asked again about my thoughts for completing the remodel and unlike pushing my usual opinion I said, "that's a great idea, let's see how that might work out...let's think about it." (Hey I was functioning on a few hours' sleep and wasn't quite ready for the "Relationship Games" first thing in the morning. I've learned how to stall--nicely!)

I just don't get why any of this would matter if we were just going to sell the house... I'm trying not to think about that too much and just let it stew subconsciously. But if one or both of us wasn't going to be here, who the heck CARES what color we paint the bathroom?
Oh well.
--------------------------------------------

I called my Mom to wish her a Happy Mother's Day, and she mentioned his birthday, to tell him she wished him well.
I told him this and he was surprised, as I was.
(Last conversation with her she called him an "a**h#@le".)

I guess he assumes she hates him, and I know she was angry when all this happened, but as I said to him, she always loved him like a son and she always will. That she understands people can make mistakes. (My father was a cheater--whooo boy is there a back story there!)

She is not happy with his behavior, but she still loves him. (Like me.)
I thought it was important to let him know this, and also that it's really about how he treats me NOW, that matters to her.
(And me. But I didn't say that part. I am getting a lot better at STFU!)
The door really IS open for him with me, my family, our friends; if he chooses to do the right thing by me. People make mistakes. It's how they handle those mistakes that really matters in the end.
I gently alluded to this fact... and then STFU... to let it sink in. Hopefully.

-------------------------------------------

But here's the best part and I didn't even realize it until now.

On one of my recent trips it appears I'd gotten a ticket for something I have no idea about.
He usually would have texted me a "what the heck is this?" sort of message. BUT---

HE CALLED ME!

I realized, this is huge.

I called him back, left a voice mail... but now I'll slowly start to work my way back into phone land. (His preference historically.)
It's a big step up.

Typical...

So here we are on Sunday and he's finally hanging around me, chatting me up, smiling, talking like nothing had ever happened between us, (which has been one of my goals; that I was able to be relaxed and happy around him so he would feel comfortable too), and he said ONE THING that keeps running around in my brain.

With the job market as it is, he has been approached by head-hunters. And that if he wanted to further his career, "I would have to move.". He said this twice, not that I'm counting. :0

He's said the same thing prior to BD, that taking a new position would mean re-locating. But it was the "I" part that bugged me.

I tried hard to not make much of this, after all, I am planning for my possible single life too.

He ended it by stating that he wouldn't want to do that, at this stage in life he doesn't want to start all over in a new area, low man on the totem pole, only to get canned in a year when they restructure...

I didn't freak out. I just kept thinking: "Listen and validate. Listen and validate. I don't have to agree... if I get stuck, just say 'I need to think about that some more and get back to you..."

Gosh this is hard.

And I still have not replied to that email.

I'm starting to think it wasn't important to him, maybe just a crabby moment about me watching Netflix (in the lap of luxury-- NOT!) while he's living in a friend's spare room. Who knows?

I am still waiting for the big discussion about him moving back into the basement. As of next weekend the second full bath will be fully functional, and it's only a matter of time after that.

So I am watching and waiting and just being passive about him, active about myself. That's not easy to do...

Quick note:
I almost forgot!

Short story: He needs a knee replacement. It was scheduled until I discovered OW and then put off indefinitely.

It came up again yesterday and I said that as long as he had the good health insurance from his company he might think about taking advantage of that since it could end any time.

I said as long as we were relatively stable we could work it out so he could get that done. He said, "Well, yeah, but I'd have to live here." I said we could probably work that out because it was important. And left it at that.

----------------

Part Two:

The Porn Problem.

We have not discussed our computer situation since the last big blowup about his addiction. Today, seemingly out of nowhere, he was discussing his laptop (mistress) the old PC, my new laptop, opening this whole discussion about what should be where and used how.... no discussion of the porn issue, but talking about sharing printers, revamping the old PC for all our old pictures and videos... again I was not operating on all cylinders so I'm still processing what this was about.

But we have NOT talked about his new fancy laptop since we both know the only reason he got it was for his porn...
Again, I tried to just STFU, listen, validate... it gets easier.

I am still really confused, but I think after a few days it might make more sense.

One thing I can say for sure: HE IS CHANGING. Something is changing.
Right now, I can't say good or bad, but different for sure.

And I still choose to be happy.
Every friggin' day.

---GG

Oh, and the doing nice little things got him before I left Saturday night was because I read the Five Love Languages.
I had to guess at his, but he has always been big on acts of service, gifts, and words of affirmation--- towards me.

So I have been doing those things for him in a very casual open-ended way that is low key and doesn't require any response from him.

So far, so good.

I realized my top one is physical touch, and realized that I have never had that need met in this relationship.
Sad.

Well, the phone call plan is working.
He called me first thing this morning and usually on Mondays he is MIA.

He called later on because I missed first call; didn't check my phone because I assumed I wouldn't hear from him and checking for communication from him often leads to disappointment.

So was I shocked to see two VM from him!

I guess we're back to talking on the phone, which is a lot more personal than texting.

It was one of my goals, to feel comfortable talking to him on the phone, and although I anticipate some awkward exchanges, it's an improvement.

It is harder though, to think on my feet with tone of voice and quick responses.
Practice makes perfect...

I feel you - I've realized I feel much better if I stay in no contact. Hearing from Ex just upsets me and gets me obsessing again, setting me back. No contact is really helping me, I'm lucky I don't need to speak to him for anything and can just delegate the stuff that needs to be sorted out to my mother.

Thanks, Italian!

(Meanwhile, somewhere around here you said about having salami slices over your eyes--I loved that!)

Update for Today:

I got an email from H; he found that in spite of the whole house remodel we could still refinance the house at a lower rate because this new offer doesn't require an inspection.
This is very good news since rates are so much lower now.

However, one discussion we've had is that after a D, one or the other of us would have to refinance to get the mortgage solely in one name, and I didn't think that could happen until it was in a sellable condition.
(Right now it is gutted.)
I saw that as a deterrent to a D. I guess now that is void.

Anyhow, I think it's a great idea to refinance, and said so.

I am not going to worry about whether or not he's going to try to put it in his/my name alone now. It's irrelevant. If that's his plan, I will not allow it, but I don't think it is at all.

I'm pretty sure he'd need my permission. If he wanted to do this and didn't need my permission, he would have already done it.

Supposedly his lawyer strongly recommended that he split our finances and deny me access to joint accounts, close my credits cards, supposedly to "protect him from my potential actions". He can do that legally.

I am proud of him that he said "No" to doing that to me.
And so far, he's stuck by it.

I have never given him cause to believe that I would try and mess with our finances or take any vindictive action. He knows me well enough to know that's not something I would do, except to protect myself.

I have a really strong personal code of ethics, and once I got over the initial shock and vented all my emotions, I made up my mind that I was going to behave in accordance with those ethics, no matter what he did to me. That thought alone has kept me on track when I was about ready to veer off.

"If I do X--how will I feel about myself when all this is said and done?"
This thought works for me.

But---about the refinancing email:

He *SAID* "we" could refinance the house, how "we" could benefit from the reduced rate, and how "we" should discuss all the options, "no matter what happens with the house."

Even though it's just words, I am pleased he was framing this in terms in what is best FOR US, and the mention of the disposition of the house down the road is just that--a mention.

I always phrase things that way, because it suggests that I've got one foot out the door...and that our future is up in the air at this point.
And both those things are true, more true some days than others.

It's an important part of my overall stance: I don't want a divorce, but I won't stop him if he still wants one when he can legally get one.
The fact is, I don't want to be with someone who doesn't really love me and who doesn't really want to be my husband.
And although this was my "AS IF" at first, now it is truth.

Also true is that part about taking all the time the law allows to make my decisions before I consent to a D. He understands that when the time comes, the burden falls on him to get the divorce finalized.

He'll eventually have to prove that we've lived separately for two years. If he follows through on pushing the D down the road, I will not stop him.
I've also made this clear to him from Day One.

We are officially in limbo until that time!

POSITIVE SIGNS:

Although I see lots of positive changes, it's wa-a-a-a-ay too early to think that he'd even think about taking the D off the table, or asking how I might feel about R, that is, if he ever does. Yet I do feel good when I see positive movement.

Originally one of my goals was that he'd use the words "we" and "us" about the future, but I took it off the list because it was about HIM and beyond my control. So it became more about being kinder, listening better, setting the stage for him to consider that maybe we're not "done" after all. Not in words, but in actions.

I worked on my stuff, and I see it's happening anyway. Go figure!

Also, the phone calls have become an ongoing thing, so I'm glad I reached out.

But everyone says to watch his actions and here they are:

He comes every day to help as promised.

I used to worry about him leaving here to go on a date but realized at this point it's pretty silly.
He comes here an hour away from work every night.
He wants to be here every Friday and Saturday night, prime date nights. He's here all weekend.

OK, he's SAYS he only comes to "help" me if I want to get out of my cage, to work around the property, but if he had a hot number in the wings, I think his behavior would be very different.
While he was having the A, he found every excuse not to be here, was always late, had overnights "for work", etc. and was really nasty to me the entire time.
So I'm just looking at his behavior, and stopping just short of mind-reading on that one.

He has also agreed to things I've asked for--demonstrated by his actions, not words---like keeping me in the loop if he's running late, respecting my space, answering questions about financial transactions without defensiveness, not treating me like an employee as if his time was more important than mine, and giving me information that will set my mind at ease rather than letting me stew or humiliate myself by having to ask him. (Like about his lawyer, finances, etc.) Essentially, treating me with kindness and respect as his wife, however we may end up.

Basically at this point, I couldn't ask for more.
I am happy here on my own, and until he's ready to really step up and do what needs to be done, I'm OK with it staying that way.

I am so grateful for the books and this board. I have learned so much and applying it to my sitch has really worked. Even if that only thing that ever happens is that he and I get along better so we can move ahead with whatever comes.

GG,

I'm about to read about your sitch, but just wanted to comment that I read your input on rsl's thread and thought it was great. I'll read in a bit, but based on that post alone, I think you are in a great place and I'm pulling for you.

Wow GG. I think H has serious issues that aren't going to be solved by this forum, or any books. It requires hard core therapy. I know this doesn't help you. But reading what you've written, I know you are someone who can make it through this.

I wish I could offer more, but I can't. Keep posting and being you GG. I'm sending prayers and good karma your way.

Sounds like you have a good plan and things are a lil better, which is always good.

I also feel better GAL and going dim, my H still in house, H says its best for our son, and he said he wants to help out with bills etc.

We all want the M to get better, but whatever the outcome as long as we a better people, it will be ok.

Thanks Nettles and 2BHappy.

I am doing everything I can to slow this process down.
I need time to figure out future plans, and I think he needs time and space to figure out whether or not he wants to deal with his issues.

Yes. He needs serious therapy. I didn't realize until BD how bad his issues really are.

I believe he knows this but he wouldn't be the first to decide to run away instead of being brave enough to finally face his demons.

They won't magically disappear along with our marriage, that's for sure.
I'm afraid he's going to learn this the hard way when there's no going back.

I am a strong person, and I will survive.
But, damn, this is hard.

--GG

Two steps forward and one step back...

So after good progress and good teamwork yesterday and a good track record with calls and texts, he has been completely MIA since he left here yesterday evening.
This pattern has happened before when we started to get a little closer, so I'm just going to back way off for awhile.

For him, working together is very bonding and we've had to do a lot of that lately.
Yesterday we worked together hard for about two hours.

However, I smelled alcohol on his breath when he got here and mentioned it casually. (He denied. I know he lied, he'd had to stop at the liquor store "for a friend's birthday" BEFORE he came here after work. I was waiting for him; it made more sense to go after we were done, so I know he got something before he came.)

I found myself wondering "why?" but stopped myself.
Who knows? Who CARES?

This is now what I tell myself.
It has nothing to do with me and everything to do with what's going on inside him.

I am trying not to get peeved that he has blatantly ignored my text from last night. For 16 hours...
So he does. So he will.
So he has problems.

I did nothing wrong. He's just being weird.
It's his problem, not mine!

With that, I'm using my "phone a friend" lifeline.

When he gets here tonight, I'll be out with the girls...or the boys!

: )

"Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

(No, no funny stuff...no romance or dating.
Just my regular dancer crowd. All good clean fun but it doesn't hurt that some of them are easy on the eyes, sweet, and attentive! And dancing is such good exercise; thereby fulfilling another daily goal. Sweet!)

Wow. Hang in there. Go dancing and have fun. I'm giving you advice I do not take from others. Go to ALANON if his drinking bothers you. That works. Long time member and wonderful support group.

Ehehe, I found a good pic that illustrates the point... hope it makes you smile

http://sp4.fotolog.com/photo/4/57/38/deadwomanwriting/1262395394911_f.jpg

Hey Goat Gal,

I saw your post in the other forum and it compelled me to stop in and see if you were here. Very interesting things you've shared. And I see a couple folks have already said what I was thinking when I read too (thanks Nettles for saying it first).

First off, I don't think you sounded angry on your first post. I saw it as a factual account of how things played out. You'd have to be a robot not to have some emotion as you wrote. But I detect a sense of humor underneath it all, and I hope you give it center stage - because it will certainly help.

You've certainly given enough material for me to start pointing stuff out at you. But since Nettles said it first, I'm gonna drive that hammer home. Your H has more issues than a magazine rack at 7-11, and those issues are NOT YOUR PROBLEM. Indirectly they affect you, but since you didn't cause them, you can't fix them. The only thing you *can* do is move forward and quit looking at his car wreck.

What I am going to point out here is this:

Quote:

I realized my top one is physical touch, and realized that I have never had that need met in this relationship.
Sad.

Okay. This comment is big and bold enough for me to leave it alone for a moment and go right for the jugular. Since you're in IC and you're making progress, can you explore this with her a bit? What I would think would be helpful is for you to understand why you were willing to forgo that very important need to your detriment. Because it's not okay.

In fact, my suggestion is going to be a little more radical, but it won't hurt or get in the way unless you put yourself in the way. Keep going with your communications. But I'd much rather see you focus solely on YOU in therapy, Goat Gal - not focusing on your M first. For 22 years, his inability/unwillingness to deal with his issues has sort of conditioned you to be okay with accepting whatever crumbs he's thrown at you. You sound like a wonderful woman. We're nearly the same age, and I'm pretty sure if I met you IRL, I'd think you were fun and a hoot and someone worth getting to know. So...

How do YOU feel about you and the choices you've made and the needs you elected not to get met or even address?

I have to say I'm really proud of you for doing something someone who's neglected her needs for so long rarely does: you established and enforced a boundary (threw his a$$ out). Please don't beat yourself up over that. You can successfully DB while living separately. In my case, being separated helped me to learn a much more effective way to communicate. I made the most of every single opportunity.

But again, I honestly believe that you would do yourself a favor to spend more time focusing on what issues you might have that you want to change (FOR YOU) and what kind of life you want to create for yourself for the next 40-50 years. I realize you've been married to him for 22 years, but think about it. Do you really want a man who chooses porn over someone who is live and willing? (p.s. That's not about sex, ya know. It's about someone who can't allow intimacy for some reason.) That's a barrel of monkeys that would take a qualified therapist a long time to work through, even with a patient who is 110% committed to getting better. And until he's ready to confront those demons, he's not there. And ergo, the only thing you can do is to continue to be supportive, but detach and create the life YOU WANT from this point forward.

Am I making any sense? Sometimes I feel like a crazy woman myself. I'm blaming it on being menopausal.

Okay, off to Costco with my D20. I'll try to come back later and see how you're faring.

Hugs-
Betsey

Talk to us GG.

Well, I TOTALLY SCREWED UP!!!!

I'm in a bit of a panic here.

It was a moment of weakness, no sleep, total anxiety---not that that's any excuse, but I've held it together really well now for 12 weeks and saw some dramatic improvements.

But last weekend I had a moment of panic. My H is staying with a friend and supposedly "doesn't get texts" when he is there, (true, lots of the time, coverage is spotty) and I'd been out that night, and usually text him to let him know I got home safely.

Well, I did, and got no response. At all.

I was curious about whether or not he was actually receiving these texts (TRUE!) and just not responding (that's where the snooping came in) so I logged onto our joint phone account to see if they had been marked "received". I honestly was not looking for anything else. And they had been.

BUT---while I was there, I saw late-night text sessions (albeit brief) with a woman I know to be a co-worker, who works in the same department as his former OW...

I didn't do anything at first, just thought about it. "What could be a legit reason why they'd be texting beginning at 10 PM until after 1 AM?" This was happening on Friday and Saturday nights when he was away visiting a sick friend, (TRUE). But those same nights he was all "I"m so tired.... gotta sleep", and then he's texting her. Maybe only 5-6 exchanges and he's not much for writing, so it could be for work. Maybe.

Second Huge Mistake: I then graduated to checking his CALLS to/from her. Those were few, only 1-2 minutes. I tried not to panic. I held myself in control for hours... until he finally responded to my text about whether or not he got it--with:
"Y".

"Y"????

I don't know. I lost it.

I said I "guess we were paying by the letter... and that only important people must get the late night texts"... paraphrasing.

He said "What do you mean? I texted you at 2 AM". Which was true, it only showed up much later due to the bad cell zone.

I said "The Woman's Name".
"I see you've been texting her late and night when supposedly you can't be bothered to see if I'm alive or dead.
I don't care who you get involved with, but it's inappropriate to be texting back and forth with female employees at that hour and you know it.
If you cross the line again, you're going to get fired and I am dependent on your income, etc."

He texts back "NOT AN EMPLOYEE".

Blatant LIE.
AGAIN.

And why? If he was not doing anything inappropriate?

He's lucky he didn't get fired the first time around and that the damage was minimal.

Anyhow... that lie is what I allowed myself to react to in a terrible way and boy do I regret it.

I thought perhaps she was NOT an employee as I'd believed, and so I CALLED HER.

BUMP.

I need some help from somebody. I am freaking out...

What kind of help do you need?

You did what you did, you can't take it back but it does no good to beat yourself up.

So I called her, thinking she was some woman he was lying to and taking advantage of.
And, truthfully, because I was pissed and hurt. Because I have not gotten involved with anyone because I would never drag anyone I cared about at all into this mess.
And that he has no business doing that either--he is a mess, we are a mess.
I know. It's none of my business.
But, boy, this is the hardest thing I have ever done. It is so hard to walk on eggshells and do everything right, day after day, every little communication... when inside there is so much conflict, so much emotion, so much pain. And so little trust in, and support from the person who was always there for me.

But what I did was COMPLETELY WRONG in the sense that it does not meet my goal of improving our R.!

(Pretty good work, though, for someone who wants to piss off her already distant husband and speed up a divorce. I am ashamed of myself.)

All wrong DBing in every way.
Bring out the tar and feathers... I deserve it for everything I've done.
Here I was, so proud of myself for doing SO well, that things were going so well, so much better.
I didn't prepare myself for handling such a situation under those conditions. I was too cocky about my progress and I thought I had a good handle on things. I didn't know that a trigger like that could have me acting so against my own interests. And it all happened within 10 minutes. If I had WAITED, calmed down, and NOT ACTED on anything, I would be better off today.

I would have never called an employee because I would never put his job in jeopardy.

MY stupid justification--not that I gave it much thought because it was really a knee-jerk, freak out reaction with very little cognition involved--was that she had a right to know that he was married, that he has a potentially fatal condition that he can pass on through unprotected sex, that he is an emotional mess, that he has no business getting involved with anyone.

The truth? Well the above statement is true, but underneath that was the thought: "He thinks he can just start up dating? How selfish can he be? I live in this half-finished house, taking care of his life, so he can pretend he's single and chat up young women in the middle of the night? We all know that's a prelude to a full-blown hook-up. That's how it happened the last time...."

So:
FEAR
INSECURITY
PANIC
ANGER
REJECTION
CONFIRMATION THAT HE NO LONGER CARES FOR ME
CONFIRMATION THAT HE THINKS ANOTHER WOMAN WILL MEET HIS NEEDS
CONFIRMATION THAT HE IS STILL LYING TO ME

My heart rate was through the roof. I was in a sweat... I really wasn't thinking at all, just reacting.

Again, not an excuse. I brought it upon myself.

So I embarrassed myself totally.

She sounded very--nervous---which led me to believe there WAS something going on.

(I do have legit concerns that he might be crossing the line with another employee. He will be blacklisted from his entire industry for that sort of thing, where reputation is everything. I can't believe he'd risk it TWICE, but then again, he's doing lots of things that make no sense to me.)

Anyhow, saying who I was, "Mrs. Goat Gal", and that I saw she had been texting my H in the middle of the night... did she know he was married? I really didn't give her much time to talk... I basically just told her that he was married, that he had no business texting some woman in the middle of the night, that he was crossing the line... etc."

At which point she tells me who she is---AN EMPLOYEE!
Yikes.

She says that "Mr. Goat" sometimes needs to contact her about work stuff. (???) and that she "HAS a man, a five year old..."....
Then she says: "Mr Goat? He's like---old! Ughhh... No way!"

Man. Did I feel like a piece of you-know-what.
(Although her comment about him being "Ughh" from a relationship standpoint did make me feel good for about--oh, a millisecond.)

I apologized to her, (yes, even called and left a VoiceMail with an additional apology, one she could have played for anyone and I wouldn't have been too embarrassed...)

And I was genuinely sorry for having contacted her, that I wasn't accusing her of anything wrong, to please understand I'm in a bad situation and I am seeing ghosts, that I am worried about what he's doing and I am afraid for my future... to please forgive me for putting her in the middle..."

All this, right from the heart. But, really...what good can come from any of my actions?

Of course, he was extremely angry, stated "Well, NOW we will have separate phones because I am SICK of your SNOOPING!" Insisted he was doing nothing that would cost him his job (yeah, like last time he thought he could get away with that), and within an hour he had blocked me from our phone account.

Unfortunately, he is the breadwinner, and back in the days when I trusted him, he set up all our accounts, etc. I have been on them jointly, but he is primary. So he has the "RIGHT" to do whatever he likes. And if he gets angry enough, he does.

In fact, his lawyer has suggested more than once (he says) that he should remove me from all joint accounts and have me file for spousal support. (Nice.)

He holds ALL THE POWER and I am always afraid of what he will do to me.

Anyhow. I am left with a situation where he can monitor all my calls and texts, while I am blocked from seeing anything. Including whether or not he even pays my phone bill.

I am breaking this up into chunks because I know I suffer from "diarrhea of the mouth" and extremely long posts are hard to read, and also in hopes that I might get some advice from the veterans here.

I know I write a lot, but I'm the type to process out loud. And I have no one to talk to.
So this is sort of my "journal" and if anyone can weigh in, that'd be great.

I don't expect anyone to read every word. (I wouldn't!)

You know what you did, you know how to do better.

Learn from it and let it go. Perhaps this is just the lesson you needed.

What's your first physical clue when you're heading into an emotional reaction?

Why not file for spousal support if you don't trust him?

Anyhow, the phone saga continues...

It gets worse.

I start freaking out that she will tell him I called. (Well, heck, he can see that I called her by reviewing my phone records!!!)
I start this whole dialogue with myself about how, unless their R was inappropriate, there is no WAY she'd feel comfortable coming to him and saying:

"Mr. Goat, I have to tell you that your wife called me and asked me about our late-night text sessions. She told me that you have no business getting involved with an employee/OW because you are married, and that you're getting divorced because you have "issues"..."

I couldn't see that happening.
It would be too personal and embarrassing for a subordinate to talk to him about that. At least, I could not think of any male boss I would have ever felt comfortable disclosing that to under any circumstances.
Maybe I would to a female co-worker / next-level supervisor who I considered a friend. And she certainly wouldn't be the President of the organization, nor a man...that level of fraternization would be very uncomfortable, unless you were on a "personal" level with the boss.

And if it did, it would mean she was WAY too comfortable with him and that their little experience, innocent or not, was officially nipped in the bud. So I didn't feel too awful about that. I figured I would find out just what it was if she felt comfortable telling him. That would answer that question.

(But--IT'S NOT MY JOB. I know. "Let LIFE do the teaching." You don't need to tell me. I have learned my lesson!)

My next level of fear was that she would blab to co-workers, and eventually this would get back to him.

As you can see this unfold, you can see how I allowed my own FEAR to create more fears than I had to begin with!

She works closely with his former OW... and surely they must have talked at least a little bit about that, unless OW is the most close-lipped woman ever... so it's not likely that no one knows anything. Surely someone saw things over the year they were hooking up in closets at all hours...

But that's me looking for excuses, and there are none.

I shouldn't have snooped, I shouldn't have confronted him, I shouldn't have called. Look where it's left me...

He got very cold, no surprise.
So far we've been calling and texting, hanging out a bit, he's always told me his plans, and I have told him mine...

Now for the first time ever, he said: "I'm going out" and wouldn't come to help out with the evening farm chores.
No explanation, and no text from him saying "Goodnight". Of course, I was expecting this.

Last night he was MIA, I know him pretty well and I'll be he was out with a few co-workers since he is not comfortable doing much of anything else, including having a real relationship, so I don't even know why I worry, but... worry I do.

But he didn't text me to check in, as has been our habit since I live in the boonies alone with bears and no outside lights, no shotgun.. hahaha...

And no text this morning as usual to say he was on his way.
So my imagination starts running away with me thinking "Last night he was probably out with his employees, maybe somebody said something to him? He's probably furious with me. I've completely blown it."

Lots of negative self-talk. I feel like I need Valium right now...

I know he was pissed. I'd be pissed.
What I did was six-ways-to-Sunday WRONG.

I think not contacting me as usual was him making a point.

He'd told me that I didn't know "my place" among other things when the phone discussion came up.

On the other hand, he also said he didn't "mean to make me feel like he was abusing his power and what could he do to help me feel more secure???"

I said, "If you were willing to listen to me when I am upset without getting angry and defensive. I feel like I'm walking on eggshells and I am in a dependent position. I am afraid. I am concerned for you because you're so unlike the man I married, you seem so unhappy, so angry and the man I knew would have never treated me like this."

(All wrong.. wrong.. yes, I know.)

To which he yelled, (big surprise)
"That's NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! You want some explanation and you're not going to get it!" words to that effect.

IIn other words, he'll do everything he can to provide for me, make me feel safe---as long as it does not require that he is vulnerable in any way, nor exposed to strong emotion, nor has to examine his own behavior and its impact on me. ...

I think that's the part I have the most difficulty accepting.

His stance so far has been:
"Closure? You GOT closure. I filed for DIVORCE. That's all you're gonna get. I don't owe you a DAMN thing!" He has said all this when I've told him I don't understand what he's doing or why...

I don't do that anymore, but I think I still imply it.

Next post will be on the last chapter of this debacle... when i contacted his "work wife" to find out more....

Yes. It actually gets worse...

I'd tell him in a minute if I were her, not to add to your angst, but it was inappropriate contact from you.

It will probably be grist for the office gossip mill.

You have no control over that. Now.

I asked some questions earlier but maybe you just really need to vent.

RE: Filing for Spousal Support

My lawyer told me as long as he is paying the bills, I would only lose. What the county would give me is far less than he has been doing.

He repeatedly states that he doesn't want me to live in fear, that he wants me to feel secure. (I guess this means financially.)

I also think the ONLY area of his life where he feels he has value is as a provider. So it's a boost to his self-esteem to allow him to do this for me.

From things he's said, he is proud of himself for this, although I think he loathes himself for many other things.

He swears he will not cut me off financially, and has repeatedly told his lawyer he will not do that to me, even if it is "recommended".

And the day after the phone debacle, he did send me a link to set up my private account and password, which he will no longer have access to.

He will have to pay the bill, of course, but I will get a notice if it's overdue.

So at this point, I want to continue to trust him in this one area as long as I can. At least in this way he can feel he is "doing right by me" as he has indicated.

If he cuts me off, I'll have no other choice. I don't want to go there unless I have to.

What does this "At least in this way he can feel he is "doing right by me" mean?

Sounds very "caretaking" on your end.

Thanks, LaBug.

I did need to vent. I was so busy writing that I didn't even see your reply.

That's my problem...I get so wound up and freaked out that I just shut down except for the panic.

I was never like that before---this experience has brought out the worst in me in every way. I was never fearful, I trusted him completely. Now I'm constantly on pins and needles.

But as to calling her.
Maybe she DID tell him, maybe not. Maybe I'll never know. (I hope.)

Not to diminish what I did, but there was already office gossip, some of it on the company website... and on some level I believe that it's his actions that are to blame, not my failure to keep his dirty secrets for him...

That in no way excuses what I did, however.

I am better than that, it's not who I used to be, not who I want to be now.

Then there's the part of me that thinks, well, what if she DOES tell him? Sure, he'll be angrier at me than ever, but surely he is embarrassed by his own behavior... more than mine. He can certainly paint me as the "Crazy Wife" as he has been doing to anyone who will listen... For all she knows, I am nuts and full of crap.

The fact is, it IS inappropriate to be texting a young female employee in the middle of the night, and for her to be engaging with him on that level. I let that bother me. How can he keep acting like a teenager with no sense of boundaries at all?

But I understand that the consequences will fall on him due to his own actions, and it's not my job to see that they do.

I have to keep my goals in mine and not get bogged down in what's "Right" and "Wrong". I worry very much about him acting out at work (sex/porn addiction issues) so there is a bit more to it. I fear he will lose his job and then we will lose EVERYTHING, even if we are divorced!

But LaBug, I like your signature.

The enemy IS fear. It is fear that allowed me to act in such a thoughtless way in direct opposition to my personal ethics and my long term goals.

If I had just taken the time to calm down, maybe get on here and write about it, get some feedback, that wouldn't have been my response.

So that's what I'll do next time.

It's a hard lesson to learn.

I'll keep you all posted...

LaBug:
" What does this "At least in this way he can feel he is "doing right by me" mean?

Sounds very "care taking" on your end.

I guess it does.
It's a long story, but he has "issues", many of which I am aware of.
He has very low self-esteem... it's the one way he can feel like a man right now.

It is to my benefit that he continues to feel that way.

If he values being a good provider, then it means my financial situation can remain somewhat stable.

And yes, I do feel sorry for him, but I do not feel responsible for him. We've been together almost 30 years and I know he has demons that he has held at bay more or less during that entire time.

So it's hard to watch him unravel. But I also know that he can only fix himself.

I hope that answers your question...?

Thanks so much for responding to my posts. I am feeling quite distraught at the moment and the support really means a lot.

--GG

LaBug:

"You know what you did, you know how to do better."

Yes. Absolutely. I do learn from my mistakes. Sometimes too late, but eventually I try to get it right.

"Learn from it and let it go. Perhaps this is just the lesson you needed."

Right again. It was a lesson I needed. I was getting too cocky... and in an unguarded moment, physically and emotionally, I let myself act without thinking.

"What's your first physical clue when you're heading into an emotional reaction?"

Good question: I start to feel my pulse pounding, the adrenaline rush, start thinking all kinds of negative things, start feeling tense, nauseous, sweaty... I KNOW I should NOT engage with him while I feel this way, it comes out all wrong. But I slipped up in a moment of weakness.

It is this type of severe stress response that has me down 30 pounds, hair falling out, taking Valium to sleep most nights.
And hormone replacement which I'd held off on, but finally gave in to because the night sweats were waking me up every 45 minutes all night long, having drenched the sheets... getting a new sheet 3-4 times a night. That, coupled with the uncertainty and anxiety was just too much..

I felt I'd gotten a really good handle on it, that I was "detaching". I already HAD a life, I was working on my 180.
I now see that my stress level is still very dependent upon how well things are going with him. That's not "detaching", that's feeling like I have some control. It was an illusion. It feels better, but it's from the wrong perspective.

I think I've been feeling more calm and more in control since I started DB because it gave me a focus and I saw steady improvement. That part is good. But I should be working my DB program even if there IS no improvement because it's about me feeling better. He has his own work to do if he chooses to.

This recent situation has proven to me that I have NOT detached, that I am still holding my end of the rope, still feeling like I have to "DO SOMETHING".

I had gained a few pounds but I am not exaggerating when I say I lost 4 pounds since Sunday night. Just from the stress and adrenaline, not sleeping, not eating....

That's how it's going for me now.

I do not do emotional stress well at all.
This situation pushes all of my buttons.

I am in therapy, and seeing a shrink for the meds, that helps. But not enough.

Thanks for listening... --GG

FYI--He is here now. I am so freaked out I am nervous about seeing him face to face.

He can read me really well and I know I don't hide my emotions effectively.

He has texted me a couple of times about the goats, etc., sounds normal enough.

I suspect if he had a revelation last night about my pathetic phone call to this woman, he'd be so pissed he wouldn't even be here. That would be typical behavior for him since he likes to avoid conflict and emotion at all costs. At least historically he has said he's not coming if he's upset or worried that I'll be "mad" at him.

So I guess my worries are--so far-- on hold.
Still, as I sit here and write, just thinking about all this has my hands shaking, I feel like I want to throw up, I can't eat... I feel like a piece of sh*t...idiot... not in control of myself... God... no wonder he hates being around me...

Those are just thoughts... I try to banish them. But the physical responses bother me. They're very hard to wind down from.

It's a hell of a weight loss strategy though!

OK.

I am going to take a long, hot shower, listened to some hot jazz, (my favorite), sing and dance along, then get dressed, look adorable and a bit sexy, increase my positive vibe and go out to do chores.

If he talks to me, I will try to be as calm as possible.

If he confronts me about the call (not likely) I will tell the truth.

That I did it. That I was wrong. That I never should have done it. And that I embarrassed myself in addition to acting in a way that does not reflect the person I want to be. That I am sorry for having crossed the line.

And then cut off any discussion right there.

Sound like a plan?

So I'm shooting for "Sexy Farmer Chick" who can handle large machinery...

Hmmmmm I'm not sure you know who you are.

You're all over the place.

Why are you so concerned about his reaction other than he controls the money?

What if he knows?

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

Are you taking the money because it helps his self esteem or because you need it?

And is his self-esteem your problem?

So far.. so good.

I walked out, he stopped working on the lawnmower, and said, very pleasantly, "Hello!"

We chatted for a bit. He doesn't seem like he wants to drop me down the mouth of an active volcano, so that's good.

The shower, music, dressing, singing and dancing did help. I feel more stable now.

If I get a pass on this one, that'd would be EXTREMELY LUCKY.

Now I'm almost disappointed that I look and smell so good because it looks like he's going to go to the parts store to fix the tractor and not return until tomorrow, and the goats don't care how nice I look. And they probably love when I smell a bit more "ripe".

Well, he loves to see me doing manual labor like Wonder Woman, (acts of service is his "Love Language" #1.)

So---his last view of me will be moving the lawn with a push mower in short cut-offs, tank top, work boots, and push-up bra.

(Before you laugh, I know I'm in my early 50's, but his OW ain't got nothing on me when it comes to body or looks!

Believe me, it's not over the top. Very tasteful! (You'll just have to take my word for that.)

I know he loves that kind of thing and I had stopped doing it because I felt he was objectifying me. Which he was.
Of course, now all I want him to do is notice me and say "Hmmm.....??? Did I forget she was that hot?"

YES.. YOU DID!

PMA, you're back.

LaBug---thank you! Just talking to someone helped me get my head on straight.

And I forget that when we have some kind of emotional transaction, it takes him a lot longer to come down from that than I do.

Even though my reaction gets extreme, I'm pretty sure his is worse.

For all I know, he was afraid to contact me because he knew he'd hurt me and lied to me. (Not that undoes my crappy action one bit.)

So we're both jerks.

What else is new?

(Funny thing about DBing... I wouldn't have been "wrong" to contact that woman under normal circumstances. Most people would have done the same. But it's true when they say DBing is counter-intuitive. The point is not to do what "most people would do" or even what might be "justified". The point is to change the dynamic. And that means I just can't go off half-cocked when I get bent out of shape. Not if I want to salvage anything.)

LESSON LEARNED!!!!

Our finances are held jointly. I am a stay-at-home farm wife, haven't had a regular job in ten years. He is in complete control of our finances as the one who set up the accounts.

So it's not a question of taking his money or not.
We still have a joint household in terms of everything, except that he is not living here. (Originally my choice, not his, although it's probably his now.)

If he stopped paying the bills, I would have no income and would have to file for support from him.
I am not in a position to just go get a job for several reasons, but the most important is that caring for this place without his help IS a full time job, one for which I am not paid, in the traditional sense.
If I had to file with the county I would be trying to survive on a lot less than I have now. So it's best for me if I don't have to go that route.

In our state, there is no such thing as a legal separation.
There are no constraints. No legal terms, nothing.
It's just a matter having the spouse who wants the divorce proving that the couple has lived separate and apart for two years, non-stop.
Once that can be proven, the divorce is granted no matter what.

His self-esteem is not my problem. It's only a problem in that he is easily offended, easily angered and that's where I have to tread on thin ice for the reasons I listed above.

I mention it because it appears to be a major part of why he is having so many problems in a variety of areas. There is a long history there, but I can say that up until the last few years he seemed to be able to cope and I didn't feel it was much of an issue.

MLC, whatever you want to call it--something has happened to cause him to shut down emotionally, get very depressed... all this I can see and I don't believe I am mind-reading.

He has mentioned suicide twice (quite awhile ago) saw a shrink, then I guess decided that divorce would solve his problems instead.

But he is still very--"off". I worry about him; he looks awful, is drinking way too much, flying off the handle at here and at work, and doing things which are so out of character, and frankly, scare me.

So I am dependent on someone who is acting pretty erratic.

That's scary.

LaBug, I understand that I am coming off like a nut-job. My writing is pretty much "stream of consciousness" and I don't really edit much. But I am glad you are reading enough to pick out undercurrent and call me on the stuff that seems weird.

I definitely know who I am, but I also know that now I am behaving in ways now that are completely in opposition to my normal self.

I am independent, happy, I was not ever clingy, needing outside approval, definitely not fearful...but now I have to fight these feelings in myself. I have never been in this type of situation before, and I don't have the skills I need to cope with it very well.

This is probably why I seem "all over the place". I most definitely am!
I am up and down... on an emotional roller coaster.. and I hate roller coasters.

I've been trying to get a regulator on my emotions, trying to talk myself up, trying to stop feeling like I'm watching a horror movie of my life.
The bottom line is, I still feel good about myself, although lately I have done things I'm not proud of because my world was rocked in a major way by the person I trusted the most.

One minute I feel like I am fine, happy, then if someone gets me to open up, I'm crying, then if he and I have a blow-up, I feel that anxiety creep in... I guess I thought everyone went through those emotions under these circumstances?

I can be good at distracting myself if I can get started. It is a skill I have had to learn and it took me 8 months to do that, with a therapist's help.

I have a lot of things that give me joy and that will see me through this. I am also basically a happy, upbeat person, although I'm sure I come off here as angry, vindictive, and slightly crazy... That's not what anyone who knows me would say. The few that know my situation are surprised I'm doing as well as I am.
But here is where I'm spilling my guts without reservation. I could edit myself to make myself look less wacky, but what would be the point then?

The truth is: I am AFRAID.
I am afraid of what else he can do to me, he has done things I never believed him capable, and none of them good.
I am afraid of losing my home, my animals... and all this WILL HAPPEN if we get divorced.

I don't want to lose him either, but that doesn't feel like fear.
It feels like a deep sadness, a deep loss.
He used to be my best friend, I trusted him completely.
Now I don't recognize him. Even physically. He looks awful, smells worse. He is sick...he has done things that are shocking... that also terrifies me...

Why would I even want him back? The truth is: I DON'T.
Not unless something changes drastically. I still see glimmers of my old H in there somewhere. He was a very good man, was always good to me, he never hurt me, I think he would have hurt himself first.... granted, he had issues but they were not deal-breakers for me.
Now he is acting like a monster and saying he doesn't think he's doing anything I should be upset about. (?)

But as more time goes by with him acting like this, I find myself thinking I might be better off. He may never get better. Something is wrong but I can't help, I can't fix it. I didn't break it...
Yet I wouldn't tolerate this behavior from anyone... so it's hard to put on a happy face as he tromps all over me these days, working out whatever it is he's dealing with.

I am NOT afraid that I will not be happy down the road, or that my life will have no meaning without him in it.
But I will have to re-home my animals, and lose this place which has been a labor of love for 8 years...that thought brings me to tears.

So I am mostly full of fear, but, I must admit, also a sort of self-righteous anger.

I say this bluntly because it's the truth, and if I can't be brutally honest here, where can I?

So I hope no one will get down on me for having the feelings I do.

I don't blame myself for feeling that way, only for allowing them to escape into the real world where they can do damage. I understand that only I can control my thoughts and feelings and I am working on letting go of my resentment and not giving him the power to upset me. That is very hard.
My feeling are really only hurting me, and that's why I need to change them. It's my ACTIONS that are hurting my M... if there even is a M anymore.

Cognitively, I understand that thinking: "He's done me wrong, the ba*st%rd, how could he, after all I've given him...He does this now? When I'm getting older and my options are more limited?...etc. etc. etc." is not helpful. That it leads to feeling angry and getting physically stressed as well.
But it's there. And I am trying very hard to let it go.

So I am up and down, definitely. Re-reading my earlier posts, it is pretty crazy, I agree.

I am working with CBT techniques that involve changing my self-talk and focus to calm myself down.
And I actually DO feel a lot calmer than I did earlier this morning. I am approaching a sort of "normal".
I am pretty good at taking my mind off things and shifting my focus once I make up my mind to do so.
So I totally get why it would seem strange to go from "FREAKOUT FRANNY" to "SEXY FARM CHICK". I'd think the same.
But that's pretty much what's happened.

The book Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy, by David D. Burns, MD was recommended to me by my therapist, and I swear it works.

Those were the techniques I used this morning--once I remembered that I know how to do that--and I was able to switch off a lot of that negative stuff and feel better fairly quickly. Granted, it doesn't always work that way.

So yeah, from the outside it might look like I'm bi-polar or something. I assure you, I'm not. Just someone in a bad situation trying to get ahold of myself and not screw things up any more than I have.

Wow. Sometimes I am SO dense.

Again I have been mind-reading, thinking that my H's recent distancing from me was a result of him knowing that I called his employee about texting him in the middle of the night.

I created all kinds of scenarios to "explain" "why" he had withdrawn...he was out with co-workers last night and they gave him an earful... she told him I called and he flipped out, the guys told him how to "handle" me, saying "Man... you really need to stop being in contact with her like you have been, don't let her know where you are, don't let her cramp your style...move on, cut her off..."
Totally projecting.
Total waste of time.

I ASS-U-ME-d that he knew that I called her, that he was furious... but really, I know no such thing.

FACTS: He WAS being inappropriate with an employee AGAIN and I called him on it.
He LIED to me about it.
He lashed out at me by cutting off my phone account and changing all the passwords.
(Granted, I was an a** for snooping and calling her. Totally.)
But I'm pretty sure he feels crappy as well about how what he did and how he handled it, and how nasty he was about it to me, with the yelling and threatening and whatnot.

He knows this hurt me and made me feel more insecure about my dependence on him financially, and I am pretty sure he's not happy about that because for all the crappy things he's done, he has always tried to make sure I don't feel overly threatened.
(Except when he gets angry, then he does things like file for divorce...)

He was so normal today, didn't seem angry at all. So I'm guessing he doesn't know.
("Thump!" That's the sound of the other shoe dropping, sometime down the road when I least expect it.)

I remembered that in the past, when I got really angry/upset and withdrew from him because of it, he didn't contact me because he really hates any sort of conflict. Always has. Has told me so.

So it's more than likely that he is reacting to MY silence by giving me a wide berth.
And that perhaps he is waiting for me to text him our usual "goodnight, all is well" message.

Or he wishes I'd spontaneously combust in my sleep so this would all be over.

Anyhow.

The only reason this is relevant is not because of the mind-reading thing.
It's to understand if he is reacting negatively to my actions because he is afraid to contact me.
In which case, trying to "normalize" things would be the right thing to do, right?
So if I'm no longer freaked out and it's "safe" for him to communicate, it should be business as usual and I should text him "goodnight" when I feel it's appropriate?
Seems right. But I'm so often wrong about that.

He has done better when I do touch base and check in. He likes to stay connected, always has.
(A true"Fearful-Avoidant" attachment type. Hates to lose me, can't stand me around. A real "win-win" for me. Ha-ha. )

But darned if I know...so I'm just going to STFU until we get done working together tomorrow and see how that turns out.

I'm trying to decide if I'm mind-reading or analyzing my own actions to do better.
Maybe a bit of both?
Or I'm just lying to myself and should look forward to another sleepless night of "what-ifs". I have a good audio book I started today, I'll listen to that for some bedtime inspiration.

And being a little "dim" might not be a bad idea anyway.

Yeah. "Detach." Right.... If pigs had wings, they'd learn how to detach!

Oh boy. Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees...

I just reviewed our interactions this week.

I have physically avoided HIM every time he's been here. (Normally I would be around so if he wanted to chat, he could. I basically hid in the house out of FEAR and shame.)

I responded to any texts he sent me with two words or less. (Definitely NOT my normal mode--obviously!)

I didn't respond to his emails AT ALL except if there was a direct question, which I answered in as few words and as little detail as possible.

So I have been acting really weird towards HIM, assuming he was furious with me.
His actions today tell me he is not.

I have been so wrapped up in my own anxiety and stress that I couldn't see what I was doing.

Tomorrow I'll be friendlier and not avoid him, but I won't hang around either. I'll see how that plays out...

More idiocy from me...FEAR DRIVEN.

I have got to get my handle on the fear. It is driving ALL of my bad actions.

Here's the story:
I live in the boonies, in the woods.
I am here alone.
(Serial Killers, take note)
It is not exactly a "comforting" scenario, but I'm coping with it and able to put on a brave and happy mask most days.
I actually like it, most days.

But it's hard. The power goes off a lot, I have to chop wood and melt snow on the wood stove in the winter, feed the farm animals; it's hard to get out of here to get to town, no one comes over, I can see my neighbor's houses but they wouldn't hear me scream... I am completely alone 90% of the time. Unless you count the reminder call from my therapist's office, or getting on the board here to talk to someone.

(Yes, if you think I write way too much, you're right. I don't have anyone to talk to about this. So I write to keep myself company. Granted, it's a one-sided conversation most of the time.)

Well, the dogs woke me up in the middle of the night last night, barking hysterically.
I'd had another awful nightmare (Zombie Apocalypse type thing), and when I opened my eyes, all was dark.

I mean EVERYTHING.

No cars down on the road.
No lights from any neighbors, but most disconcerting, no lights from the cell towers on the opposite mountain, nor from the city 30 miles away, and--worst of all---from the Nuclear Power plant I can see in the distance.

We've had power outages over the years, but I have never experienced this total blackout.

I was walking around with my cell phone in hand as a flashlight; went outside...dogs were barking and howling up and down the valley.
No generators kicked on. It was dead silent.

I did take a moment to note that the stars were incredible, and then immediately wished my husband was still here to see how beautiful that was...how he would have loved that.

And what did I, "Ms Sexy Farm Chick who can handle a backhoe in one hand while mixing a dry martini with the other" do?

I burst into tears.

Yeah. Great.

I burst into tears because I never wanted to live here alone. This was a two-person dream. (And I am crying now as I write this...)

I just couldn't think straight... but when I tried to think, my first thought was "Terrorist Attack".
My second thought was--OMG, I wonder if H is OK and they have power where he is?
My third thought: "Why did he do this to me? Can't he see how hard this is for me?"

Here's where it got stupid (AGAIN).

I called him.
Granted, I was pretty composed when I did, no tears or panic, just that I was concerned, if he had power or knew what was going on.
As soon as I heard his voice, I knew it was a mistake. But it was that moment of weakness thing.

Who the hell else am I going to call at 2 AM in an emergency but my husband?
(I now have a plan for that.)

To his credit, he was cool. Said they had power there, not to worry. No problem about waking him up because I was... fill in choice word here..."concerned"

He texted me later, saying, "Don't worry, "MEAN UGLY DOG" would never let anyone hurt you!"

(Funny in a way because that dog will not let him NEAR me if I'm in bed sleeping. He will bite H now if he gets close. He was never like that until H left the house. Weird, but dogs know things.)

Today he's back, working on the tractor.

In fact, he's walking in and out of what is now MY SOLO HOME like he never left.
I'm not sure how to feel about that, whether it's a good sign that he still feels like it's his home too, or he's just eating cake...

But I also feel like a big baby for calling him last night.

------------------------------------------

I've been listening to that new audiobook:
Living and Loving After Betrayal,
and I highly recommend it.

One thing that stuck with me last night from listening is that after an intimate betrayal, our sensitivities become so heightened to danger that we see threats where there are none. PTSD type thing.
I have no doubt this is true.

(Because, if you'd told me a year ago that I would have ever called my H in the middle because I was freaking out about Zombies and Terrorists because it was DARK OUT, I would have laughed...)

How things change.

The audiobook is really great.

Living and Loving After Betrayal by Stenen Stosny, PhD.

It is a how-to of sorts to deal with your feelings of fear, resentment, anger, and grief after an intimate betrayal. The very things I am struggling with now.

It details how going through such an experience is life-altering on so many levels and can affect brain chemistry, the whole body, not just emotions. And how that pours out into day-to-day actions.

The focus is not on blaming or getting even, or really dealing with the person who was opposite you in the event, although I think the end chapter is about repairing relationships where trust has been broken.

It's about healing yourself in a constructive way, and understanding your experience so you can cope more proactively and start to feel better.

I'm only about one hour in and the nuggets 'o' wisdom have been priceless.

Just stuff like "Guilt is you telling yourself what you're doing is not in line with your own values"... stuff like that. A lot I've heard before, but it's good to hear it again and I like all the "brain chemistry" stuff.

It's not weakness to feel this way. It's evolutionary biology. It's how we're wired. Our job is to untangle the wires and string them together in a way that makes more sense for us and creates peace in our lives.

Stenen Stosny is a genius much like MWD listen to what he says!

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

(Before you laugh, I know I'm in my early 50's, but his OW ain't got nothing on me when it comes to body or looks!

Have you ever heard of affair down?

The OW is not someone to worry about at all.
She is just a prop in his screenplay,
if he is depressed as you say he is trying to cure that depression with outside things.

That will fail.

How long will that take?

Answer
How long do you have?

Start living your life for you, stop worrying about him, detach, let go.

So, funny thing about that Zombie Call to H.

It served one unintended purpose.
It helped him feel valued, let him know that I still turn to him in times of need. It lets him be strong, and I need him to be strong.

He has said he is "weak", "ashamed", will "die alone for what I have done", and that he is "a coward" for how he handled things.

Although he'd never admit it, my comments to him after discovery really wounded a man who was already feeling really down on himself.

He values being a "good man". I know this because I know him, we've talked about it many times over the years.
"Family First", you "Always take care of your family."
My god, you should have seen how he cared for his mother, my parents. We moved across the country to be with my Dad when he was dying and my Mom needed the support.

HE said we should because it was the right thing to do. My parents and siblings loved and admired him for this, as did I.
Now they are angry and disappointed in him.
(Sure, I vented some but withheld the most damaging details. I had to because at one point I had to leave and stay with my mother--a move to retain my sanity.)

When he filed for divorce, the letter was sent to me at my Mom's house on Christmas Eve. Now she calls him "That Bastard", when she used to say he wasn't her son-in-law, he was "Her SON." She adored him. My whole family did.

So I know he hates himself and thinks there is no going back.

But she talked to me on his birthday, saying she still loved him but didn't know how to handle it. I shared this with him briefly and he said "I'm surprised."
I said that she will always love him, even if she doesn't like what he's doing.
And that she, like me, could forgive if he did what he needed to do to make amends. That she would admire him for that because it takes courage.

That's actually the stance of everyone close to me. They are angry with him for how he's gone about things, but it's not the past, it's what he does NOW that really makes or breaks it for them. And me, too.

Sorry, I know I'm rambling...

What I'm trying to say is that I'm not mind-reading about what he needs.
I don't understand all his motivations now, but I do know and understand the man underneath.

So calling him when I was frightened felt good to him.
What feels BAD is when I'm upset about HIM and our whole sitch.

And calling broke one of Sandi's 37 Rule: Amended Version

He felt GUILTY that he has left me out here all alone with the lions, tigers, bears, zombies, and terrorists.

Those two feelings effectively cancelled each other out.

So now he's popping in and out of my space and chatting away like nothing has happened.
He's smiling and talking like always.

I am SO confused.

So I'm just sticking to the DBing basics, be scarce, let him set the pace, look nice...be pleasant but not overly friendly.

This is so hard to do 24/7. It's WORK!
I'm not complaining, just agreeing with what others have said.
You have to be in it for the long haul, and it's going to be tough, requiring a lot of patience and, in my case, an extra big dose of STFU.

I need to go away for awhile just so I can relax.

You need to get out of his head.

You mind read A LOT.

It seems that your whole being is wrapped up in making him OK. Who is the real GoatGirl? Maybe that's who he fell in love with and now she's morphed into his caretaker with no identity of her own.

GG - I'll try to post here also, but please see Loualea's thread too. Luke

Thanks, Luke, I will.

And thanks LaBug. You're right.

I do need to get out of his head.

But even more than that, I need to get out of mine!

You definitely picked up on that one.

I am a very analytical person and I do struggle with getting hyper-focused on issues and going round and round with them when they are upsetting to me emotionally.

It probably doesn't help that what you see is what I post on this forum, when I'm trying to figure things out, vs what I do when I'm living my life. I decided I was going to spend more time on here, reading and posting, to see where it led me and what I could learn, so I have been doing that the past few days. I have been writing like crazy all the things I've been thinking and feeling, and it's been cathartic and informative.

But I think too much time on here does detract from my actually "living" my life instead of talking about it on DBing.

Too much time on here actually gets me mentally revved up by all the "Ahaas!" and "Wows!" that seem to relate to my situation.

But when I'm not on here, I'm very much involved in real life, and in my life/health/happiness in particular. It can get lonely up here, and I don't really have anyone to talk to about "this" on a regular basis.

I enjoy many solitary activities, but I am also an active musician, dancer, DJ, and sculptor/potter. I am a busy bee with a full life. I've had to be more that way in recent years because my H stopped doing anything other than working, doing chores, and in his free time, sitting in front of the computer. He no longer seemed interested in anything but life online...certainly not in me.
I have lots of friends, delight in doing and learning new things... and I count myself as extremely blessed in many ways. I am grateful for all of that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
But you are right to call me out on ANYTHING that seems like it is wrong-thinking for getting this right.
I am happy that you are taking the time to read and respond and I definitely need guidance.
The responses force me to think differently and that's important.
Otherwise, it's just me running around and around in my own skull like a hamster on a wheel.

---GG

I guess I need to understand the difference between "mind-reading" (pointless), or "reviewing/learning to get clarity/understanding/compassion".

When I first posted on here, it was said I was so full of resentment, and I was.
I had no compassion for my husband, only anger.
I saw that holding onto that anger was hurting my M, so I did my 180. "Be compassionate, even if I don't agree."

I guess that's coming off like me being co-dependent/caretaking or something, but it doesn't feel that way to me and is very much opposite of how my R with my H has always been.
(He's the "I don't need help" type. I don't need to guess at this. I know it. He's said it for almost 30 years. He never would have allowed a co-dependent type relationship, and I would never have been interested in one.)

However, I do believe that now he is ill somehow. And that concerns me.
I saw my mother and father both suffer from major depression, hospitalization, ECT, and now my brother is going that route. It's hard to watch someone you care for struggle like my H has been.

I tried to suggest/help/support in the beginning, but that backfired as well. He has to do it on his own. Or not.

So one of my 180s has been to stop feeling so angry. To be kinder, gentler, softer, quieter.

And the latest 180 has been to STOP TRYING TO HELP HIM.
He never allowed it before (I mean, I couldn't even bring him soup when he was sick in bed. He'd get angry and say "Stop MOTHERING me!!!") so I'm sure now is not the time to start that, hah-hah.

Am I also supposed to stop trying to understand him? I guess that's where I'm getting off track... I don't know where understanding stops and mind-reading begins.

He has given me very little to go on about what he was unhappy about in our M, so my only roadmap for addressing that has been looking back and trying to remember little things he said or did to get a clue.

And that has helped.
Over time he has validated some of this, saying he could have felt more appreciated, that he had difficulty with conflict, strong emotion, that he "shuts down". These are things he has told me over the years and what I'm attempting to do is to fit this together with my 180s.

For example, the "no contact unless he initiates" rule totally backfired on me. He thought I was angry (told me so later) and so avoided contacting me. We seem to get along much better when I give him gentle, open-ended contacts during the day.

It's stuff like that.
He has said all that about being weak, hating himself, etc. He's a passive man in most respects. He is not the take-charge type. That's not mind-reading. It's history. My goal has been to see if I played into that, somehow making it worse. Perhaps I did, because when one partner shuts down, the other takes over...

So I'm sure I'm not doing this all right but I am trying to see things from his perspective. I thought that's what I was supposed to do, try and see where things went wrong from his side of the fence, and then use that information to make the necessary changes in myself to be a better spouse.

It has been a HUGE change for me not to be angry with him, not to try and make him feel guilty... that initial reaction really made things much worse.

He responds well to compassion and no-expectation contacts, and calm kindness in that he opens up more, he doesn't run away from me, he talks to me, he sticks around. He calls me.

Those are measurable actions.

I am by no means excusing his choices. He had others he could have made. They were 100% wrong. Neither am I saying he gets off scot-free, Poor Baby, because he had a horrible childhood. Even if he didn't know how to handle things on his own, he could have gotten help instead of the things he did do.
He is responsible for his choices and the consequences are his to bear.

I am only trying to adapt my communications to further pave the road back by not...for lack of a better word..."scaring" him.

And it's funny, they say here when something stings, take notice.

Well, I find myself feeling defensive about being told I don't know who I am... so I had to think about that a bit.

I think the truth is more that I no longer know who I am IN THIS RELATIONSHIP.
And I don't know how to deal with that very well.
It's not a situation I have ever encountered, and not being able to handle things is also somewhat alien, so this is all new territory for me. I am unprepared. Completely. But I am using all the tools available to get the train back on the track.

So here I am, thrashing around like crazy trying to embrace all this information, new ideas, stuff to quiet the chaos in MY mind, get a handle on things.

But I never needed to GAL... I always had one. Maybe that's part of the problem. I did, and he stopped having one.
I never lost my sense of self and I never felt inadequate based on his choices, I never felt like I was responsible for his choices. Not that I didn't have things I needed to work on, or that I didn't contribute to the breakdown of the marriage. But I could have been the most perfect wife in the world and he could have STILL chosen to do what he did.
It takes two people to make a marriage work, but it really only takes one to ruin it.

So that's another thing I'm examining, where I could have done better in our R, what I could have been giving that he needed. That's been difficult and has required some major soul-searching.

I definitely know who I am, what I love, what my values and ethics are, what's important to me. I believe my sense of self and my happiness with who I am are intact. I have many things I am proud of and I feel good about. Not that this wake-up call is not painful...but I'm still me, and I'm OK with that.

I am looking at improving this "me" in ways that will benefit me, and make ALL my relationships better. And honestly? The things I have been learning through this experience have brought me close to people in ways I'd never expected.

Personal growth is tough, but in some ways I can say this situation has improved me in ways I hadn't expected.
I'm more aware, and, I think, more attuned to others since I have recently suffered so much pain.

Granted, my thoughts run back to this whole debacle with great regularity. And when they do I get anxious and upset. I am always working on doing better with that.

What can I say?

I am a work in progress.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

However, I do believe that now he is ill somehow.
And that concerns me.
I saw my mother and father both suffer from major depression, hospitalization, ECT, and now my brother is going that route. It's hard to watch someone you care for struggle like my H has been.

I think that it might help you to read my welcome post on the MLC forum

You can find one here

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...415#Post2456415

Thanks, Cadet. I will do that ASAP.

Before I do, though, can you give me an idea what I should be looking at?

I did read all that when I started, and there was a LOT of info.

(And I love a lot of info...but I don't want to swim around in the deep end if I'm only supposed to be in the kiddie pool.

)

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

"But what do I DO about it?"

Ugh... I know... Nothing. Right?

YUP

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

)

Take your time with it, there is no hurry.

I would read it in the order that it is presented.

The resources have a whole set of links in them too.

Take those in order too.

I know the depression part of MLC.

I thought he was a bit old for that, and I think he had one when we were first dating at 37!

I think he is definitely depressed. He mentioned suicide twice last year, at ILYBINILWY speech time.

But after that he saw a shrink and "supposedly" the doc said he "IS" depressed, but doesn't need meds.

That's just what I "heard", so you know how I feel about that.
He quit therapy the day after he filed for divorce.

H also "said" that his testosterone levels were "GREAT!!!!"

Well, he's 63, so...
How "great" can they be?

Again--this is just something he "said".

My mother and father ended up getting help for their depression.
And frankly, the only reason my mother did is because I pushed her and wouldn't accept her wish to just die.

It saved her life and that was 8 years ago.

It's hard to watch. But I do see lots of similarities.

The utter disconnect, the focus on themselves, the lack of empathy, anxiety, lack of enjoyment in anything, self-medicating with alcohol/computer... and low self-esteem running through it all.

In all cases, people with very big outward egos, "top of the heap".
Underneath, very vulnerable and very fragile people.
People who were perceived socially as highly competent at their jobs, "larger than life".
But close friends have said about my mother in particular. "Well, you know... you just never get close to "Mary"."

I watched both my parent self-destruct in various ways growing up.
And--SURPRISE!!!
I was the one who felt I needed to "help". I was the mediator, the "fixer".

I thought I picked a man who did not need "fixing".
Wrong.
He just doesn't need fixing by me.
And the problem was never really evident until a couple of years ago.
Not that I can see, even looking back really hard to find it.

------------------------------------------

I know it sounds like "mind-reading" to paint my H with the same brush, but it's based on experience.

I have seen the personality change...the suspicion, the change of heart about people they used to consider friends; now those beloved friends never do anything right, they are turned away, and it's now it's doubtful they were ever important anyway.

You say "The sky is blue and it's a beautiful day!", and they're angry for you pointing that out, then they insist "It's going to rain. It ALWAYS rains. ON MY HEAD."

Then they accuse you of stealing the dishrags.
(My mother did this, as well as telling her friends I had "elder abused" her when I was the only child caring for her. (She's in her 80s.)

It took YEARS for those friends to realize she was out of her mind when she did this.
And to this day she has no memory of it, although people have told her. She can't believe she ever did that. But she did.
I am glad she doesn't remember, but I will never forget how hurtful that was.
A lot like now.

------------------------------------------------------

I'm guessing that's where you're pointing me by the quote you pulled.

And that little voice in my head is saying:
"Right!"
"He's DEPRESSED."
"But what do I DO about it?"

Ugh... I know... Nothing. Right?

Thanks, Cadet.

I will read it all again, repeat as necessary.

--GG

OK, Cadet.

Good advice. Just re-reading the whole "going dark" thread was an eye-opener.

I realized I hadn't absorbed some important details.
I'm going to mull this over.

And a new 180 for me:

EDIT MYSELF!

(When I'm writing, or talking, the thoughts come super-fast. I type super-fast, and there is born the perfect storm of "Post Overload". I apologize for being so--verbose.)

Sounds good,

Knowledge is Power.

Let me know if you have any questions.

GG-
I just wanted to pop in and say I have been reading a lot of what you age been posting to CW and I really like and admire your insight, and the way you can express yourself. I read you and I think 'yes!- in wonder if she can speak to my h..' :-)

You have a lot to offer. You really see to get it.

Much love.

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

How to I unsubscribe from emails?
I really don't want my H seeing all these "Divorce Busting" emails popping up.

He might get the wrong idea.
(*wink*)

Go up to my stuff ^^^^^
Preferences

E-mail - set to NO

Thanks, bustingout,

His situation just resonated with me, and sharing my experience with him has really helped to clarify some things in my R.

Talking with him is the next-best-thing to talking with my H about this stuff, something he says will "NEVER happen!"

So it's good for me too...

--GG

Cadet, I have done that more than once. But I'll double-check.

"If it's right in front of my nose, you can bet I'll overlook it."
--GG

What is the setting in Edit-Profile set too, concerning e-mails?

"Edit Preferences" at the bottom I've checked "No" and "No" to getting emails for private messages or watched topics.

Under "Edit Profile" I have my email address listed, but checked "No" for whether I want to receive emails about the site, etc.

I did this yesterday and still get them.

I'm afraid to remove my email address. I might get dumped off.

(Maybe I should put in H's email address! Wouldn't THAT jump start my afternoon!!! What a funny thought....)

OK try this.

Go into my stuff

watch lists

then edit each list and see what the e-mail notifications says.

I bet yours are set to receive e-mails

There is watched topics
watched forums
and watch users

edit all of them

THANK YOU!!!

"By Jove, I think she's GOT it!"

Now that you are familiar with that function - you can use the edit watched user list to search for posters here on DB.

Sometimes that can be quite useful.

Glad we FIXED it!

Great. I will.

Some of the posters here have been so wise, so helpful.. even with the dreaded "2 x 4"s!

(I hope I don't get one but the more I post it's bound to happen!)

There is a lot of tough love going on here more than hand-holding, but sometimes that's really what's needed to get people to shine more brightly.

What is most impressive is that they dedicate their time to others for YEARS during, and even after, their own situations have resolved one way or the other.

I have read a lot of the old posts; copied some of them to my private notes.

I see that periodically these threads are pruned. I hope the best nuggets get saved. It looks like they do.

The information is priceless.

Thoughts on today:

Detaching.
It's more than just pretending that you don't care and showing this to your spouse.
It's actually not caring.
And I have a long way to go.

Dim/Dark:
More like a dimmer switch.
I'm doing this for me when I need space and time to think things through, when I feel too raw to trust myself to be my best with him, or when I just want to focus on myself without his energy interfering with that process.

Communication:
Just because he is not contacting me doesn't mean he doesn't care for me and isn't thinking of me. (See above.)

Mind-Reading vs. Understanding:
Understanding is a precursor to compassion. Trying to understand my H's feelings and motivations is important for me to gain insight into what I might improve in myself.

I am struggling with differentiating "Understanding" from "Mind-Reading" but I will take a stab at it.

Understanding is based on facts, history, measurable results, good or bad.
"W was diagnosed with x"= Fact
"H left that night, drunk, and with a woman in the car"= Fact

Mind-Reading is based on guesswork and conjecture.
We extrapolate from things we see or hear and try and build this into something we think we know.

"W will never recover and resents me for being the strong one"= Mind-Reading
"H isn't coming back, I know that woman is cheating with him"= Mind-Reading.

So I'm sticking with known facts.

Today, I worked on not just acting detached, but BEING DETACHED.

It feels different.

H didn't contact me all day, in the afternoon I texted him about when he wanted to schedule the farm vet to come out.

Very business-like.

I didn't go out and see him when he was here. But when he left, he CALLED ME(!) saying there was "too much to text about".

Not really. He just wanted to talk!

And, he left me two cold german pilsners on the porch, saying they "were for over the weekend" when he'll be here alone.

Well, it's MONDAY and he's not going to be here until Friday.

So-- they were FOR ME!

These are measurable actions.
I don't know what he's thinking, but based on his actions, I don't think it's that he hates me, wants to avoid me, or doesn't care about me any more.

That's all for tonight.

Good thoughts. Here's one from me:

Detaching isn't not caring about him. It's caring about him without taking ownership for his baggage/issues/whatever.

What do you think?

i was going to write something but someone else has said beautifully.

From one of my favorite writers, David Richo:

�The more invested I am in my own ideas about reality, the more those experiences will feel like victimizations rather than the ups and downs of relating. Actually, I believe that the less I conceptualize things that way, the more likely it is that people will want to stay by me, because they will not feel burdened, consciously or unconsciously, by my projections, judgments, entitlements, or unrealistic expectations.�

Have you ever studied meditation or yoga.

Either/both might be very helpful for you.

Originally Posted By: labug

This is put beautifully. Thanks.

Originally Posted By: labug

Have you ever studied meditation or yoga.

Either/both might be very helpful for you.

I don't disagree!!!
(Are you telling me I need to "calm down"? Heee-heeee... If so, you're preaching to the choir!

)

However, I have ADHD--see above somewhere ^^^---and as such, I'd rather poke my eye out with a sharp stick.

More seriously though, yes, I agree, and I appreciate the suggestion.
They are definitely helpful, and they would be great--- if I could actually do them.
I have tried various guided imagery meditations to help calm myself.
They do work. I have a few on my laptop that I go through when I get really wound up.
(I found that a River Otter was my totem animal! Make total sense!

)

So, yeah.
I've tried Yoga, Tai Chi, Chi Gong (sp), but honestly I get so bored... then that sort of defeats the purpose. I've dabbled. They're all good.

But see "sharp stick" comment above.

I've found, through trial and error, that what works best for me are the more active forms of meditation/body awareness/thought-stopping/redirection/reframing of thoughts.

Lots of hard-core exercise, a soak in a hot tub, playing music, watching a good Zombie flick with a big glass of a nice Pinot Noir and a big bowl of gluten-free Mac 'n' Cheese, (preferably all of the above), well...those can't be underestimated in their "calming" abilities either.

So I'm more of a "work-book" type in processing my emotions and calming my inner dialogue, and lots of dancing for the release in the body, doing comforting/enjoyable things for myself.

Works for me, at least when things are less crazy than they are now.

I'll let you know how well this stance holds up the next time there is a crisis!

----GG

I'm not telling you you need to do anything, just offering suggestions of things that might be helpful.

I get bored, too. When I first started, I could barely last 5 minutes. Sitting with that is part of the practice. It's well documented that it does change the neurophysiology of the brain. But it's work.

There are some pretty good studies that find yoga can be very helpful for folks with ADHD.

I've read that too... at first I tried everything.

But those first five minutes are a bitch!

I've read recently that meditation specifically can help improve focus. If it is those "First five minutes" that are so difficult. ..that seems worth trying to get better at, perhaps... We can get better at anything with practice and concerted effort...

Sounds to me like GG has found a form of active meditation that is working for her. I don't *think* I'm ADD but I have found since all this blew up that I do better when I'm in motion. And that is after many years of yoga practice that helped me cope with the ordinary stresses of life.

I think we all know that detaching is REALLY important. But the question is--HOW??? Please feel free to add to this if you have any golden nuggets!

Detaching Means:

1. Understanding where our spouses are coming from without feeling like we need to be responsible for their choices, nor agree with them. (Thanks, Maybell.)

2. Letting go of the need to try and control them, educate them, open their eyes, see what they're missing/losing, make them feel guilty, sorry, miserable, or jealous.

3. Releasing the desire to "fix" them, "help" them, or "cure" them.

4. Embracing them as individuals--not just "our" spouses--- with separate ideas and agendas; who will do things their own way, on their own timeline, whether we like it or not.

5. Accepting that they may never return to us as the people we knew.

6. Focusing on our own behavior and our own lives, improving ourselves in ways that would make us happy and enhance future relationships, with or without our spouses.

7. Striving to be our best, authentic selves in spite of a difficult situation.

8. Not allowing our spouses to take up any more space in our heads than is necessary, while still keeping them in our hearts.

9. Responding thoughtfully to interactions with our spouses, rather than reacting emotionally.

You know you're NOT detached when:

1. You are consumed with thoughts of him/her and---what if...?

2. You wonder who he/she is with, and what they might be doing.

3. You still feel a strong urge to snoop and know what they're up to.

4. You read significance into every little thing, searching frantically for crumbs of hope.

You're Starting to Be Detached When:

1. You look forward to plans on your own.

2. Your spouse is not the first thing you think of in the morning and the last thing you think of at night.

3. You're feeling confident and comfortable in your own skin. You know you'll be OK in the end.

4. You can deal with your spouse on a friendly level as you would a neighbor or casual acquaintance, and it feels natural to do so.

DETACHING: How To

(Here's where I need help! Feel free to add to this.)

Reframing negative thoughts, which helps to calm negative emotions, allowing us to behave in a way that is in line with our personal values.

(You can see, that's all I got.)

---GG

On the dim/dark/detaching:

I struggle with how much to share with my H.

Since this all started I have behaved in accordance with my values. (Except for the first few weeks when I was a Bi%$h on wheels.)
No flirting, no dating, always let him know where I was, who I was with, including phone numbers. I think this is because I perceive him as threatened, and I want HIM to know I'm still the person I always was, not acting out in ways to get back at him.

I'm doing it for ME. Because it's the right thing to do when we have shared animals, etc., in case anything happens to me.

(Just answered my own question.)

Lately he has done many things which show he is not completely gone from me, no matter what he says. (He only says the dreaded "D" word when he is really angry, usually screaming it or repeating it like a child. I know. It's weird. I have NEVER had him tell me that he wants a divorce when he is calm and acting like an adult. I have to think about this.)

Anyhow, we had been in the pattern of checking in with each other throughout the day, texting each other "goodnight"...this took awhile to work up to. We even got up to calling each other again and chatting on the phone about everything BUT the R.

This went south with the "phone debacle" last weekend. ^^^ See above somewhere for the gory details...

Although with that incident, I went against my ethics, and against DBing, I realized after a time that I was really upset with how he handled it by splitting our phone account.

It felt to me like I was being bullied.

He has control of everything (financial, utilities, 401K, etc.) and when he gets angry, he exercises his "right" to change whatever he wants to and I have no choice.

He said he "doesn't feel like he has abused his power" I guess because he has not yet taken steps to control our finances without my input.

But my feeling is that he HAS.
--------------------------------------------------

Over the last two years he has done whatever he wanted, no matter the negative impact on me. He filed for divorce, telling me I had no choice, that he wasn't going to explain anything, and he "didn't owe me a DAMN thing."

I felt abused emotionally.
And while he was actively in the affair, he was downright cruel to me. He made me cry several times a week and I really didn't understand what was going on at all. He denied cheating, denied... blamed me for stupid things, like all the stupid things we LBS hear...
So I see where I'm going here and I'll stop because it's pointless.
---------------------------------------------------

The POINT is, he has taken positive steps towards me.
We were doing better.
His actions show me that he is willing to put the phone incident behind us.
He is back to telling me his whereabouts and checking in, albeit with some lame excuses, but I'll take it.

I know in his mind we are "not together", however, he sort of acts like I'm still his wife, that this is his house, we're picking paint colors for the house neither of us will be living in if we are divorced, for Pete's sake!!
When he's here he walks around like he owns the place.
He asks about light fixtures for the remodel... He says "we should do X'.. on the other hand, he SAYS he's "at peace" and "moving on". It sure doesn't look that way where I'm sitting.

To me, it's NOT OK for him to do things to our joint accounts just because he can.
No matter what I did, to me this crosses some kind of line... I'm not sure how I feel exactly. It feels like a turning point.

I'm really getting fed up at what I see as a total departure from reality, or some kind of weird manipulation from him.

Should I stay sort of dim and see how it plays out?
Should I open up a bit to him and send him a cute pic of the chickens?

I guess what I'm asking is:
Am I allowing him to enjoy himself a bit TOO MUCH?

He doesn't live here, I do 75% of the work. I'm up at dawn and late at night.
He's got it pretty cushy in his friend's guest room, he gets to come up here whenever he wants and play with the dogs, do the things he likes to do, then he leaves and I'm here to clean up and do all the dirty work.

Why should I be including him in the good parts of what used to be our life?

I have been sharing this nice life with him via communication/pics, etc. not to make him feel guilty at all, but because I know it's important to him.
You know "We're all fine, a nice day, thanks for your help- pic of sleeping mutt."

I am feeling resentful... so, do I stop this because he's having his cake and eating it too? Or do I continue because it is paving the road back home?

Arrrggghhhhh...

And--- I'm off to a big dance weekend and so I'll be MIA until next week.

I can't wait to read what exciting things have transpired when I get back.

Meanwhile, if you see me posting on here, I am supposed to be focused on other things. So be my accountability partners!

Have a great week.

--GG

GG, Have a great time at your dance weekend!!!

Your detaching list is pretty comprehensive. I think I'm going to copy it somewhere since it gives me a roadmap for the roughly half of detaching I still have left to do. Thanks for that.

Re: Your dim post... I've been doing a lot of what you were talking about, using my kids instead of chickens & dogs. Cadet kindly reminded him that his needs were getting met and we weren't going to make any progress if I kept reaching out to him. I'm not going to say that you're in the same boat as me, though a lot sounds familiar, but it might be worth seeing what Cadet & Labug were telling me and consider if it applies to you. I don't necessarily feel like I'm qualified at this point to give a whole lot of advice.

But HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND. Dance your heart out and let all the crazy into the universe to make space for your wonderful self!

I'm heading out for a long weekend away (YAY!!!) I could use some wisdom about how much to stay in touch with H.
Not sure if I'm doing more harm than good by being as "dim" as I am right now.

I am kind of doing it for me, but also because I'm pissed at his actions.

Part is curiosity; I'm trying going dim again to see how it feels, but handling it differently than before in that my interactions with him are always pleasant,.

I'm just not initiating ANYTHING. I stay in the house when he's here, I'm not telling him anything nor asking him anything. I am not emailing/texting/calling.

However---
He is such a passive/fearful type.

I'm concerned that he might back WAAAAYYYY off if I continue to avoid him as much as I have been.

I don't think he's the one to take the first step to re-establish the level of contact we had before the last blow-up. If he was interested in more contact (don't know if he is or not), he WILL need it to be "safe".
(This I know for a fact from our life together... not mind-reading.)

I would like to be back on that level where we were talking and texting a lot and things were more relaxed.

On the other hand, I wonder if "giving' him that much of myself and keeping him included is allowing him to eat cake. He's got it pretty good, as far as I'm concerned. He has everything he's said he wanted, and I have pretty much nothing of what I want.

So I'm going away this weekend and out of courtesy I have always let him know my whereabouts.

So--I'm stuck.

Bring him back into the loop, or wait to see if he works his own way back in?

I think if I leave it up to him, he'll think I hate him and just wait for ME to initiate it. Sort of like everything else emotional in our marriage...

He is already pulling back on giving me any info or initiating contact as time goes by, the longer I have been dim.

So....thoughts?

I'm trying to figure if my current actions can do more harm than good, or more good than harm.

----GG

Originally Posted By: GoatGal

I'm heading out for a long weekend away (YAY!!!) I could use some wisdom about how much to stay in touch with H.
Not sure if I'm doing more harm than good by being as "dim" as I am right now.

How is it doing harm?

He is divorcing you, correct?
Are you going to be friends after you are divorced?

Are you going to do his laundry and cook him dinner after you are divorced?

Would you come cook me dinner?

I hope you see my point.

I say wait.

And pick another friend to entrust your whereabouts to.

You have a cell. Your H knows how to reach you. You said it all when you said he's got everything he wants and you've got nothing you want.

GO have a good time! Give yourself a vacation from the drama!

Thanks, guys.

No. I will NOT be his friend when we are divorced. I'd probably try and forget I ever met him.

So I'll stay this course for now until something else happens.

I guess my concern is that if he doesn't feel I'm open, he will not initiate contact.
He's been like that our entire marriage. He's a take charge guy at work, but in personal relationships he pretty much is passive/fearful of rejection.

But yes, Cadet--I WOULD cook you dinner!

From mdu:
"Just reflecting on how much H responds to my mood/attitude when I see/speak to him. I don't know what to make of this and it seems very counter to DBing because in my case pulling away really seems to work against me. The only thing I can think is he truly felt so rejected by me for so long that he's struggling to go 'first' and feels the need to get the green light from me. Whenever I call and as long as I keep my voice warm and upbeat he's VERY receptive and even a bit flirty (his voice gets sweeter and softer and he's gigglely). Generally the same when I see him in person. It's hard because I keep feeling like he should be purusing ME, and he is to some degree, but I guess I keep thinking it should be ALL on him. But maybe that's just not going to work in my case."

This is my sitch.

Same answer?

---GG

PS: Whatever you say, I'm gonna trust you. Otherwise I'll probably get to see that dreaded 2 X 4!

See if this thread helps you with why to go dim

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=714209

GG, my H is the same way in his personal relationships. That is one of the things that he would have to adjust before I would consider reconciliation. Is it a deal-breaker for you?

Thanks, Maybell,

At this point I doubt he would be able to change his entire personality.

So, no. Not a deal-breaker. He has a lot of very good qualities. Just not in evidence much at the moment.

Unfortunately, this situation has brought up every demon he's ever dealt with.
And introduced me to some I've never known and never wanted to meet!

Our sitch went from one in which I trusted and respected him implicitly, to one where I know many of his "secrets", don't trust him a bit, and have lost a lot of respect for him.
So for a guy with self-esteem issues (again, fact, not mind-reading) he is really having a hard time with this.
He can't pretend he's Mr. Perfect anymore.

On the up side, he has done many things that show he still cares, he just doesn't want to talk about anything and wants to avoid conflicts at all costs. (Me too!)

He is here almost every day, making sure I have what I need, doing nice little things for me... he is not cheating that I know of, he's pretty transparent, pretty easy-going.
He asks almost as if he hasn't filed... no plans, no... nothing. Except more of the same. It confuses me.

He only brings up the divorce when he gets mad, and he gets mad whenever there is anything that seems to put him in a bad light.
(Gee, not a lot of wiggle room there! He's done some pretty crappy stuff. Kinda hard to pretend he walks on water...)

He's always been like that, except now everything is amplified.
Passive. Fearful. Making knee-jerk impulsive decisions on the HUGE things, and obsessing for months over things like "should the basement floor be 3/4 inch thick, or 5/16?" I'm not even exaggerating. WE STILL HAVE NO BASEMENT FLOOR DUE TO THIS! (Years now.)

I don't even think he ever would have spoken to me the day we met way back when, except that I was bawling my eyes out over my BF who had just dumped me...!

Guess how he met the OW?
You guessed it!

So he's big on rescuing damsels in distress, (they're needy, he can "save" them, it's a built-in ego boost) unless HE is the heel who put them in distress.
In that case, they're just witches trying to make him feel "bad".
And he does NOT like to feel "bad". (Also not mind-reading. History.)

Funny that he stuck with me all those years.

Like now, my misery over my ex BF didn't last all too long. But H stuck around after that.
NOW he says he was trapped for thirty years due to his guilt; he didn't want to dump me like ex BF had done. (WTF???) He should be nominated for Sainthood!

Yes, Cadet, I will read that article too.
I am still digesting the dim/dark thing and I am slowing making my way through your homework list again.

I am also re-reading my DBing books, and I haven't found a lot on HOW to detach, just how to create some distance.

I can "act" detached, mostly.

But "feeling" detached is REALLY HARD.

Because it feels like "NOT LOVE", like hardening my heart.

I'm afraid if I harden it too much, I will be done. And he will feel it, and feel like there's no hope.

Then we will BOTH be done that that will be that.

---GG

PS: Before anybody brings out the big guns, I KNOW this post was a lot about him and how he is. It's just information that may or may not impact how I do my 180...So don't shoot me. I'm really good at ducking now!

GoatGal, I REALLY hope you are dancing and don't read this till Monday... but in case you're not, I was only thinking how you should handle THIS WEEKEND. Because of course everything changes when you're home again.

Yes---I am at my event!
Gearing up to dance with people from all over the world; Moscow, Copenhagen, Berlin, Tokyo, Sydney... I am GALing big time!

It was a 6 hour drive here, alone, as usual, and I had a lot of time to think.

I thought a lot about "detaching" and wondering what I keep clinging to.
I realized I am clinging fervently to my life as I know it, as I have built it.
It's about my H, yes, but it's just as much about my home, my animals, my being part of something built with a partner.

I understand that until I can "let go" of this, accept that it's as good as gone, that I will always be holding on. And that holding on so dearly means I am at the mercy of my H's actions.
I think this is where the fear comes from

Not a fear of being alone or not being happy; but the fear that he, by his actions, will destroy this.

He can.
He will if he wants to.
As much as breaks my heart, I see it clear as day.

So tonight I am excited to catch up with music/dance pals from around the globe,
and burn the floor. Then get up and do it until the wee hours of Monday.

H is alone on the farm with the animals... He will enjoy that.

More tomorrow on how my "dim" is working.
(Thanks, Cadet, I think you were right.)

Great dancing last night.
Didn't think of H at all.
The less real estate he takes up in my head, the better.

He asked me to call when I arrived safely, I did. Left no info other than name of event and hotel. (No room # or phone or roomie phone like I usually do.)
When I called, he wanted to chat, I listened for a while , then signed off quickly, "Well, we're off to dinner. Enjoy your evening..giggling people in background.."
He sounded snippy, "Well, BYE then."
I think he tried to hang up first...

Interesting.

I'm on a break so I've been thinking. (What else is new?)

FEAR: Not getting my normal text alerts from the bank that say when large withdrawals are made.
Thinking my H blocked me from that account so I can't see what he's doing with our money.
Account is in both our names, but the log in is in his.
I don't know if he has or not, he keeps *saying* he is being very transparent with money. So far that's true.

I am resisting the urge to check my access because if I am blocked, I know it will upset me-- it will mean he is starting to separate our finances without even talking to me about it, in my state, he can do this as the sole wage-earner!!!
Or it's to hide his spending from me because there are things he doesn't want me to see...

I am going to SIT TIGHT and resist.
I can feel my pulse pounding, my mouth is dry.
It is FEAR once again. Fear of him taking over my life and forcing me into a position where everything has to change for me because he's become a selfish, confused shadow of the man I knew.

On the other hand, we have an appointment next week to refinance the house in both our names.

Confused as ever...

---GG

Things I've been doing wrong now that I've been re-reading Cadet's homework.

Although I've been really nice and went 12 weeks with no blow-ups, I have made the mistake of pushing, confronting, having an agenda. "Get help for yourself (depression/porn addiction) "not for US but for YOU..."

Same thing. Giving advice he does't want to hear.

His translation: (Per a mutual friend): "He says you keep trying to get him to change, to see and feel things YOUR WAY."

She's right. GUILTY!

Of course, she also says "He is at peace."
(Not hardly.)
That he will "never change his mind" , we should be "divorced already" (!!! Why? Because that's what HE wants in his currently great wisdom?), that he is "absolutely sure that divorce is the best solution". (For whom?)

All this because this is the stuff he says to her, mostly when he's pissed at me.
And she, not knowing what we know, takes what he says as the gospel truth.

I know better and I'm ignoring these statements.

However, she gave me a great clue of how to continue my 180s.

I have to stop giving him anything he can use as ammo against me, that he can complain about either in his own mind, or to his few co-workers/friends.

So yes.
Dim/Dark.
Let him twist in the wind a bit without having me to blame!

Right now I feel better not seeing or talking to him anyway.

I'm having a great weekend so far!

---GG
AKA "Dancing Queen"!!!!

Listen, Dancing Queen, methinks you should be DANCING. You asked us to hold you accountable and on this awesome time away you've posted at least as much as usual. If you're on a break, then spend it with other people, who don't know your sitch, and enjoy NOT giving him real estate in your head!!! This time is for you. Let your subconscious process your friend's info and you can process it on your six hour drive home.

I love hearing from you but I think you should have a good time and come home refreshed. Trust me when I say I know it's hard to let go for a bit. Trust me also when I say, when your wheels are spinning like they've been they become overworked.

Have you spoken to a lawyer? Mine was really helpful about ways I could protect myself if I became worried he was going to do something with the accounts.

BUT FOR NOW, GO DANCE.