Sandi - just want to say thanks for your posts on some of the other threads with similar stories to mine. They are keeping me strong right now.
That means a lot to me, Dingo. You are helping other LBH'S by your personal experiences. You can relate to them.
More of the same from my wife last night. She stopped by to pick up her golf clubs as her father is coming into town this weekend. I stayed busy doing little chores around the house while she was there - put my kayak rack on the car and took the kayak down from where it hangs in the garage. She sort of followed me around and made small talk/asked questions about what I had been up to. I was friendly with her, we laughed a bit and it was pretty pleasant.
Eventually she told me that her lawyer had been sick for the past 2 weeks and that I would be getting the settlement later this week. I asked her if she wanted me to respond right away and she started to cry and said yes. She made mention of the fact that we hadn't really talked much in the past month and that we didn't even say Happy Easter to each other and said that showed her that it wouldn't be hard for us to be out of each others' lives. I told her I would do as she asked.
She said she had gone to a friend's house for Easter and when I asked if the OM was there, her answer was 'he showed up later.'I asked her if they had spoken and hung out together and she said 'well we didn't ignore each other.' Told her I thought she was getting him out of her head so she could make the right decision about the marriage - 'i tried, i just really enjoy his company.'
So all of this and yet somehow, in her head, this decision is still all about our relationship and has nothing to do with him. She refuses to accept that she is leaving the marriage to be with someone else....
She doesn't have to accept that. What she thinks is what she thinks.
But remember, her leaving isn't completely about you either.
yeah you're right - I guess my hope all throughout this has been that eventually she'd see things for what they are. I guess everyone has their own version of reality.
Bug - this is going to come across as arrogant and like I have learned nothing but i really don't think much of this is about me at all anymore. She's told me that she can envision her life with me and it would be almost everything she's ever wanted but something would be missing. She can't (or won't) tell me what it is but she will say that we had it 2 months before BD. It almost feels like this whole [censored] show over the past year has taken on a life of its own and we've forgotten what our real issues were. Presumably because in her mind, its just easier to not look at them and run off with the OM.
It almost feels like this whole [censored] show over the past year has taken on a life of its own and we've forgotten what our real issues were. Presumably because in her mind, its just easier to not look at them and run off with the OM
In her mind, that may be closer to how she thinks than you know. To me, it makes more sense to see a WAW in a M of many years which has so many problems that choosing a new life with OM is easier for her than fixing the old one. But you two have not been M very long!
However, she may be the type who had rather handle most problems in her life by deleting what she sees as not working and just get a new one. It seems we live in not only an instant gratification society, but a throw-away, as well.
The ultimate irony in my mind of all this is that if she dumped me before we even got married, I would never have blamed her. I was absent, neglectful and completely 100% self-absorbed in what I wanted to do - and she married me anyway...
After we got engaged, I slowly started to realize that I was contributing to a lot of negativity in our relationship and started to change all of the above. Apparently the changes weren't fast enough for her or she just couldnt let go of the past or wanted a 'cleaner' relationship with no past issues. What a great way to do that by choosing a relationship with an AP...
yeah you're right - I guess my hope all throughout this has been that eventually she'd see things for what they are. I guess everyone has their own version of reality.
Bug - this is going to come across as arrogant and like I have learned nothing but i really don't think much of this is about me at all anymore. She's told me that she can envision her life with me and it would be almost everything she's ever wanted but something would be missing. She can't (or won't) tell me what it is but she will say that we had it 2 months before BD. It almost feels like this whole [censored] show over the past year has taken on a life of its own and we've forgotten what our real issues were. Presumably because in her mind, its just easier to not look at them and run off with the OM.
I don't think it sounds at all arrogant.
It's not the one straw that breaks the camel's back, it's the accumulation of straws. She may not really know what her unhappiness is about. It can be much easier to move on because fixing things takes work.
The ultimate irony in my mind of all this is that if she dumped me before we even got married, I would never have blamed her. I was absent, neglectful and completely 100% self-absorbed in what I wanted to do - and she married me anyway...
After we got engaged, I slowly started to realize that I was contributing to a lot of negativity in our relationship and started to change all of the above. Apparently the changes weren't fast enough for her or she just couldnt let go of the past or wanted a 'cleaner' relationship with no past issues. What a great way to do that by choosing a relationship with an AP...
To me, that sounds like you have an awful lot to be grateful for. Regardless what happens to your M, YOU have grown. You get to keep that. You get to take that with you into your next relationship, whether that's your W or someone else.
Week or so since my last update - here goes:
I did finally get the papers in the mail a week ago. Appointment with my attorney next week. Most of the stuff in there was pretty simple and had already been discussed. No kids makes it pretty easy. We did have some negotiating on physical property but that was all pretty minor.
Emotionally, I think my wife is totally done. She's accepted everything that's going to happen and it doesn't seem to bother her - or bother her enough. There is very little emotion when we speak, no real animosity either. We can be friendly and laugh but that is probably just a familiarity thing. I guess I still held out some hope so I am not as accepting as I thought I would be.
GAL is helping but a lot of my favorite activities are things we used to do together. I push through and do them anyway but its tough.
I struggle with a lot of questions. Guilt for the things I did wrong in the relationship is still a struggle. I also struggle with 'sour grapes' kind of thoughts - there was obviously something about the relationship that wasn't doing it for me or I would have been a better partner; do I only want her back now because I can't have her? What would I do if she came crawling back tomorrow? How would I feel about that? Maybe this is the best thing.
It is hard to learn through mistakes, but it is tragic when nothing is learned. You will have another chance, Dingo. Just remember what you've learned.
You are asking yourself honest, difficult questions. If you can find the answers within, I believe it will cause tremdous self-awareness and growth. The price won't be in vain.
((Dingo))
We had a pretty low-key R talk last night. Started when she said something along the lies of 'I hate that it has to be this way - I am not happy with this decision but I am comfortable with it.' I responded with 'It doesnt have to be this way, its your choice to make it this way' - which I probably shouldn't have done but I just despise when she tries to pin everything on fate/the universe/circumstance and doesn't take accountability for her decisions.
Anyway - typical crap. Its too late, we can't communicate, i can't see any hope..
So here's my question, and I am asking it academically because practically, there is nothing to be done about it:
How does the circular logic of 'the A is keeping me from seeing my marriage realistically and having hope in it but I am not going to give up the A because I don't see hope in my marriage' ever get broken?
How does the circular logic of 'the A is keeping me from seeing my marriage realistically and having hope in it but I am not going to give up the A because I don't see hope in my marriage' ever get broken?
Ah yes....that's a good one isn't it. The problem is, a "real" relationship can't really compete with an A now can it? There's no problems in an A. There's excitement, there's fun, there's all the happy fun stuff with none of the typical day to day "crap."
Even in my case, it even went one step further...not really the "happy fun time" argument at the end, but rather, more of a "just in case" type deal. Ultimately, that drove me away, and then she picked right back up with OM (which basically proved my point).
So what can we do? I think ultimately, we give them what we want. We let them move on with their life. We let the A run it's course. There is a lot of soul searching that needs to be done by the OP, and I don't think that can really take place when they are involved with someone. When the happy fun time turns into a daily grind, at that point, maybe they start to see things differently. Then again...maybe not. There's just no guarantees.
About the question, you dig deeper into, 'why her?' What is it about her that you find attractive, lovable?
Do you want to fix her? Is that a need you have?
Are you afraid of failing?
Do you love her or the idea of her?
The number one thing I find myself missing is all of the activities we used to do together. Whether it was working in the yard or going hiking, we had a lot of common interests and did a lot together. The familiarity and friendship we had with each other is also something that I am missing. We truly were best friends and can still talk at that kind of level when our guards are down.
I don't necessarily think that I have a need to fix her, though there are some things that I would like her to change - primarily with how she manages her money and time. I was accused of being controlling because I asked her to manage her debt and contribute to our shared savings accounts and when she couldn't do those things, I pressured her. That being said, I do want us to learn how to fix and better our marriage and I suppose that involves us both having to fix ourselves in certain ways.
I am afraid of failing under the present circumstances, yes. I think its a awful shame to throw away the life we built for comparatively minor grievances (prior to the A). Two months prior to BD, she was planning on us having a child. Then the OM comes into the picture and its talk of divorce. I simply cannot be ok with the fact that this is not truly about us but is so heavily influenced by another - a fact that she just will not acknowledge.
Some of this is personal redemption. I want the chance to atone for my past mistakes and transgressions.
All of the reasons that I love her are still there. There are obviously some major trust/character/integrity issues and some other unattractive qualities that have been piled on top of that. I do believe that I still love her tough I probably need to really think harder on that.
I am very resistant to change. I am sure this is a fear response perhaps having to do with feeling out of control. Also, despite the fact that I have had numerous successes in my life, there are a handful of failures that still haunt me and quite possibly lead to some low self-esteem.
Things to think further on....
Got a text last night:
'I don't think its going to change anything but I am willing to wait a little while before we proceed like you wanted'
I didn't answer her and won't. I need to find a way to stop the contact though. If I go a couple days without contacting her, she will find an excuse to come to the house to get something - a pair of shoes, a paintbrush...silly [censored].
Had some strange things happen over the past few days. The first anniversary of my MIL's passing was on Mother's day so I sent my wife a simple text saying that I was thinking about her and her family and that I hoped they had a good memorial service. I wasn't really looking for a particular response from her and didn't expect anything other than perhaps a 'thanks we had a good day' or something along those lines.
She called later that day and we spoke for a while about how the day went, how her family was doing and then had some general friendly discussion. No R talk, no tense topics and it was pretty easy to get back into the old rhythm. I initiated the end of the call.
It was a little setback in terms of my detachment but I was willing to accept that under the circumstances. I care about her family too and I really was sympathizing with them for their loss during the day.
Later in the day, I noticed that she had changed her facebook cover page to a picture of her family that had been taken a bit prior to her mom's death. I was with her in that picture along with her sisters' significant others....
This is where things get a little strange. After a day of NC on monday, she sent me an email saying that she had gone rock climbing on tuesday and met someone who was looking for a partner to climb with this weekend. As she has a baby shower to attend out of town this weekend, she told him that I might be interested. So she forwarded me an email from him with his contact info and after a few emails back and forth, it was apparent that she had made a lot of very strange comments to this man (he is well older than either of us and married so I don't necessarily think of him as a threat or another potential OM).
He knew I was her husband, knew all about many of the activities we enjoy doing together, all about our rock climbing history, our backpacking and hiking trips together, etc. He commented that he thought she and I had a lot of interesting experiences - all through email on which she was included.
So he and I arranged to meet at the gym today and she indicated that she was going as well. This other person invited us to go outdoor climbing sometime with him and his wife and my wife said it would be great for all of us to go together.
Bizarre behavior - i don't even know why she mentioned me to this person originally or told him that she was married...
I haven't asked her a single question about any of this. The email exchanges weren't written in such a way that would make it obvious that she and i were separated or otherwise weren't talking on a daily basis. I plan to meet this other person tonight to climb - for legitimate reasons. I am genuinely interested in finding new people to do these kinds of activities with. I don't intend to report back to her on it (she is now not coming tonight because her shoulder is bothering her from the last time).
anyway - just looking for a little insight from folks outside my situation.
Thanks guys.
I met up with this person on Thursday night and had a great time climbing with him. I am very confused though because he is definitely under the impression that we are happily married and that my wife had mentioned us all going climbing together...not sure what this is all about...
Sounds very confusing, dingo.
I would take the positives that she's introduced you as her husband and is otherwise presenting an unified home front where she didn't even need to mention you.
I'm not up to speed with your sitch, is OM still in the picture?
I haven't snooped or asked about OM for a long time. She hasn't said he's not still in the picture so until I hear that, my default is that he is.
I met up with this person on Thursday night and had a great time climbing with him. I am very confused though because he is definitely under the impression that we are happily married and that my wife had mentioned us all going climbing together...not sure what this is all about...
This is where we think "hmmm, isn't that interesting" and let it go.
Can you clarify bug?
That is pretty much the perspective that I have taken. However, sometimes I wonder if I just should have said no thanks and passed on getting together with him and establishing a cross-over friend with my wife.
Did your comment refer to the impression that this person had after speaking with my wife or the fact that I even met him to begin with?
For what its worth, he invited "us" to go again today. I am going after work but am now in a somewhat awkward situation.
Sorry, I meant stay neutral on the impression he had about your M and where that came from. Not good, not bad, just interesting.
About being friends with him or not, you'll figure that out as time goes on. It'll work or it won't.
By "us" do you mean you and W along with him?
By "us" do you mean you and W along with him?
yes - it was sent just to me but included her on the invitation.
Although I was raised as a christian, I am not a particularly religious person much to my mother's chagrin. However, this morning, I woke up feeling a little bit vulnerable and confused by some of these recent events and for the first time in quite a while, prayed for some clarity on things today, for a sign, for some sort of nudge in the right direction.
It has been 4-5 days since my last exchange with my wife and this morning, as I got to my office, I received the following text:
"are you stealing my new climbing buddy?
I just talked to 'climbing buddy' and heard you guys had a great time last night. I didnt go because I was out at a job site all day. He invited me to go on thursday and friday with you so I will probably see you there!"
Like I said above, I am not a big believer in fate, 'the universe' or other 'supernatural' type things but now I am even more confused. Trying not to mind-read but I can't escape the thoughts that this whole thing is something of a contrived effort. Other than the time when I texted her on the anniversary of her mother's death, she has initiated all breaks of no contact - on the order of every 3-5 days. She has been particularly friendly as well...
You're in the driver's seat, buddy.
What do you want to do?
Well - this person is a good opportunity for me to learn a hobby that has interested me and a hobby that I introduced her to. I am not inclined to run away from the situation just yet.
That being said, I am also not very keen on getting enmeshed in the situation again. Over the last couple of days, I have found myself wondering about the OM and wanting to snoop - much more so than during the previous 6 or so weeks.
She has not mentioned anything about D paperwork in close to a month
I guess I am trying to mind read this and its a futile effort. I don't have to make a decision today so I will see how I feel about things on thursday.
So - it looks like I will most likely participate in this activity with my wife on Thursday. Any sage advice on how to act? Friendly - like she's an acquaintance?
You like climbing? Go climb.
Maybe it's contrived, maybe it isn't. You can't know; stop stewing over it. Set expectations to zero. You're going climbing.
How to act? Treat her like you treat the other guy - you're just 3 people out climbing. Watch, listen and learn. Resist any urge to start any conversation that isn't about climbing.
^^^^ good advice.
It'll be what you make it. Go with the intention of having a good time and learning something (about climbing). If it's too awkward with her there, you'll know what to do the next time.
It appears that my recent post was deleted somehow So this post is a brief summary of that as well as an update.
I had been essentially dark for about 3 months when my wife and I started talking again. There was a hiking achievement that we had been working on together until she moved out. We were very close to finishing it and at the time, I had asked her to continue to do them with me so we could finish together. After a bit of waiting, I continued working on it without her. I made plans to complete the achievement this past saturday. A few weeks prior, she caught wind and asked me if I would help her catch up so we could finish together. We took a day off of work to do one trip and had an amazing time. From my perspective, an outside observer would have thought we were a happy couple. We talked non-stop, laughed, goofed around, were very familiar with each other and she seemed to have a twinkle in her eye that I hadn't seen in a long time.
We never managed to catch her up to finish together though. She had plans last weekend and couldn't get another day off work this week. However, we spoke on the phone a couple of times, went for a bike ride/dinner/ice cream one evening and things seemed to have taken a small turn in the right direction.
During this time, we had only snippets of r-discussion. She brought up her fear that we would only fall into old habits but also said she felt like she should be settled down by now. I said that I had really enjoyed spending time with her recently and she agreed that it 'meant something' but she's not sure what. I told her that I was hanging out and talking with her because I still hadn't given up hope that we could turn things around. She asked a number of times if I was seeing someone else which I declined to answer. She seemed to think it was important but I told her that it only mattered if she could tell me she was ready to come back 100%. The word divorce was never mentioned.
So- I went on my trip Saturday and finished my achievement. When I came home, there was a small package on my doorstep. It was a card from her congratulating me. The card was handmade, very well done (she put a lot of time into it) and had an incredibly sweet message in it. I was floored- it brought a tear to my eye. I called her to thank her and got no answer so sent a nice text and asked her to call me the next morning. She finally texted me at 1030 or so saying she was busy but would call me later- she never did.
I finally spoke briefly with her this morning. She said she had plans today but wanted to get together tomorrow after work. I suggested that we go rock climbing and then grab dinner.
So here's the complication. She spent the weekend with the OM. She doesn't know that I know and he hasn't even been a topic of conversation the past few weeks. I feel like I need to cut this off until she cuts that off. I feel like there are possibly some chinks in her armor and in her affair (she's been having something of an affair with me the past 2-3 weeks no?). Am I being impatient?
Dingo,
Your timeline suggests that you have been into this for eight months or so. You had been doing well on detachment until a positive past mutual experience and a plea for help started the construction of a cheeseless tunnel,
My view is that you remain a great climbing buddy and an occasional companion when other options are not available. With no pun intended it seems as if she wants to see if you are still on the other end of the rope.
Follow your instincts as I think they are correct here. If her involvement with OM is your boundary to anything further with you, you must stick to it or she won't take you seriously.
I would also suggest you find someone else to climb with and cancel the dinner.
Good luck.
Hi Dingo, good to "see" you. It is a tough situation that you are in. Though really, is it any different than last December, or January, or February? She has been unable to completely let go of you this whole time, but also has remained with OM. Sure, maybe the R with OM isn't going as planned. Would you feel comfortable with her coming back to you for that reason?
I want to be more positive for you, but honestly, I think you deserve better than what she has to offer right now. I agree with AW up there - you need to stick to your boundary.
Dingo, if I wrote what you wrote above, what would you tell me?
Thanks for the responses guys. Forgive me for not writing out the answer to your question bug but I did spend some time thinking about it.
I cancelled our "date" for tonight and re-affirmed the boundary. She claims that she is having second thoughts about everything she's done (which is a turnaround from two months ago when she was dead-set on divorce), hinted at relationship problems with the OM and said she really does regret not finishing our hikes together. Maybe she's starting to feel left behind, idk.
I am trying to re-establish my detachment and feel good about my decision.