So, my story... about 3 years ago, back in July of 2011, my wife informed me she loved me but just wasn't happy and wanted a divorce. Our marriage had it's fair share of ups and down and we had been to counseling in the past. Her major complaint was that I neglected our relationship. I was a great father, she said, but I didn't do much to make her feel like we had a relationship outside of parenting. Further more, she felt so much pain when she thought about the neglect that, even if things changed, she wasn't sure she would be able to get over the hurt she felt when she thought about the past. Fortunately, I was able to see on my own that there was truth in what she said, and rather than focus on anything she might have contributed to our problems I instead focused on myself and what I was able to control and change in the marriage. I got both books, the Divorce Remedy and Divorce Busting, read them cover to cover repeatedly and employed what I learned from them with great success. I also started going to independent counseling (wife wasn't interested in marriage counseling but saw her own therapist). Within a couple of months my wife remarked that the major changes she was seeing in me had forced her to examine herself and her role in our marital problems, and she realized that 1) she couldn't put all the blame for her feelings on me, and 2) she wanted to stay married and work on the relationship. We had great success in this for the next 2 years or so, and then...
In the fall of 2013 we had some major financial upheaval, but our relationship was going well enough that my wife's response was to decide that we should start looking for a new house in a new town where the cost of living was lower than where our current home is. However, as our house hunting went on I noticed that she was slipping into some old patterns and so was I. She was going out and drinking more often with her friends and leaving more of the household responsibilities to me, and I was becoming more neglectful of the "relationship" aspect of our marriage. Utilizing our strengthened communication tools, we talked about it and she agreed that we were both slipping...backsliding that is. For her part, she said she was worried about leaving her family and friends who provide a security blanket of sorts for her, and going out with her friends kept her from having to think about that. So we put into action a plan: I would re-focus on "us", setting aside time for just the two of us, and she would cut back on the drinking and going out. A curious thing happened however. While I took steps to get back on track, my wife never really did. I set up dates for us and made sure I was addressing her needs as she had explained them to me, but she never really cut back on the drinking or going out. At home she was as loving as could be, no complaints there. No cold shoulder from her, plenty of sex and affection, good times together...none of the coldness that I've read so much about in these forums. But anytime she walked out the door I would have no idea when she would be back or in what condition. It's no fun when the kids constantly ask "when is mom going to be home" and all you can tell them is "I don't know."
So I checked in with her to find out where we stood and she said that she realized she was depressed about not being able to afford to stay in our hometown and that she was self-medicating with alcohol and that she was having doubts about our marriage again. She saw that I was taking the necessary steps to meet her needs, but she wasn't sure it was enough anymore. I told her that we were supposed to be meeting each other in the middle, and that it wasn't quite fair to expect me to continue giving more and more when she wasn't living up to her end of the bargain. She agreed, and said to give her a month to cut back on the drinking so that any decisions she made would be made with a clear head. I agreed, however in the ensuing months there was still no change...if anything she was going out even more often and drinking more often. It was like she was leading a double life: by day, we had all the affection and camaraderie a person could want, but when she left the house I never knew how drunk she would be when she got home or even when she would be home. I asked her point blank if the drinking was because she was wanted out of the marriage and if she just didn't know how to tell me and she said no. Realizing I couldn't control her drinking per se, I told her I needed some bare minimum boundaries that included keeping in touch enough by text so that I wouldn't be waking up in the middle of the night wondering where she was and so that I would have an answer for the kids when they wanted to know where she was and when she would be home. By the light of day she agreed that all of that was completely reasonable, but by night it was like pulling teeth getting her to abide by it. Still, the weird dichotomy existed...no lack of affection from her, active sex life, always kissing and hugging and saying "I love you". Nothing missing in that regard.
Finally, a few days ago, she came home from an independent counseling session (we both have been seeing IC's every couple of weeks or so as a way of keeping our marriage on track) and said that she has been in denial for months and wants a divorce and that her unhappiness has been the source of the drinking. Her explanation: Because of our finances she sees no future together, and she still feels pain when she thinks about the past and the relationship neglect she experienced. I told her that I understood how she felt, and why she would come to the conclusions that she has come to, but I also told her that I felt differently and that I came to a different set of conclusions. She told me her plan is to move in with her parents at some undetermined date and that we can tell the kids once I figure out where I'm going to move. No clue on her part (or mine for that matter) as to how to handle childcare, as our current work schedules are set up so that one of us can be home with the kids at all times and we won't be able to maintain those schedules if/when we separate.
She has stopped saying "I love you", but she still gives me a hug and kiss when she leaves for work, we still sleep in the same bed, she leans up against me when we watch TV together, when she gets up in the morning she comes into my home office and hugs me, and when we go to sleep she wraps her legs around mine. We converse like friends, continue to get along great...She says that type of affection is because she still cares about me and loves me as a friend. By all outward appearances, our relationship would seem more strong and affectionate then the marriages of the people we know who aren't going through any problems. In fact, from my perspective, the friendship that we have is the whole point of marriage! I'm kind of at a loss and not sure where to go from here... From the outside most people would think our marriage is great, but she says she wants to move out and wants a divorce.
Welcome to the board
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power
Welcome to the board, sorry you find yourself in this situation. Have you read the Divorce Remedy or Divorce Busting books?
You'll get lots of great advice here, you'll be on moderation for a little while so be patient as they can sometimes take a while to get approved.
Welcome to the board. We are sorry to see your situation has lead you here. You wi ll find a lot of grewt help and advice. Keep posting and reading. It helps.
Thanks for the comments. I have read both the DR and DB books and they really helped last time. Funny, things seem to have come full circle and my wife and I are almost right back where we started back in 2011.
I've been doing pretty well with detaching and 180s. GAL has been a little more difficult because I work at home now and my wife primarily works nights, but I've been working on it.
Bomb was dropped 6 days ago and it's strange how well we've been getting along since. No relationship talk, just going about our business like a typical married couple. No mention from her of a move-out date or her thoughts regarding childcare/custody. Wife has stopped saying "I love you" but still hugs me and shows me other small affections...all initiated by her.
Last night she called me after work to let me know she was going out with her friend, and that she wanted to let me know she wouldn't be doing anything while she was out that she wouldn't be doing if I were there. Kind of caught me off guard, but I appreciated it, and that's exactly what I told her. She texted around 1:30am to let me know she was on her way home, and when she got home she curled up in bed next to me and went to sleep with her head on my shoulder. Weird... Weird behavior from someone who says "ILYBINILWY, I'm moving out, and I want a divorce." Feels a little bit like the Twilight Zone around here sometimes...
"Detach" has become my mantra...
Read sandi's 37 rules and have been thinking a lot about them. Kind of made me think up one of my own... If you have to think about whether or not to do or say something, don't. The correct thing to do or say will make itself apparent to you. Until then, just don't.
Just kind of journaling here I guess...
I have to keep reminding myself that the lingering goodness I see in my wife's behavior may very well be, and most likely is, illusory... I want to take it as a sign that she's having a change of heart, but for all I know she's just keeping the peace and trying to make things look as normal to the kids as she can until she gives me a move-out date and makes a suggestion as to how to tell the kids.
There hasn't been any talk about the relationship since she dropped the bomb, 6 days ago. At that time I told her that while I didn't agree that divorce was the right thing for us, I understood how she felt and that she had to make the decisions that she felt were best for her (trying to validate while respectfully disagreeing; I would have liked to have said to her that she needed to take into account the kids' well-being when making decisions, but I managed to keep that to myself). However, I also told her if she wanted a divorce, it was going to have to be her work not mine... that I wasn't going to take on the job of planning her exit for her. Instead, she could let me know when she wanted to move out, and how she wanted to discuss it with the kids, and what she thought a fair custody/child care schedule would look like, and I would in-turn let her know what I thought was agreeable and we could try to hammer out anything that wasn't. Not 100% sure that was the right tact to take, but I just can't see sitting down with her and helping her figure it out. I told her I would't stand in her way, but I wouldn't be an active participant. I think I deserve that and owe it to myself.
So at any rate, I have to keep reminding myself that the pleasantness in our relationship right now may only be for show...or maybe it's genuine...but there is no way to know and either way I can't let myself believe that it means she's had a change of heart. Because at this point it is extremely unlikely that she has.
Detach, detach, detach...
Not sure if or when these posts will ever show up... Guess I'm just kind of journaling anyway.
Today will make it a full week since W said she wants a divorce. No relationship talk since that day. Had a good weekend, all things considered. She works Friday and Saturday nights, so that usually puts me at home with the kids (need to get a sitter one of the those nights soon as part of GAL).
When she got home on Saturday I was watching TV, so she fixed a couple of drinks for us and sat down with me and we hung out talking and laughing for a couple of hours before going to bed. Sunday we ran some errands and then took the kids to a late lunch. Had a really great time and, again, you never would guess from outward appearances what is going on. After the kids went to bed we did our Sunday night ritual--watched the Walking Dead--and then called it a night.
Most nights when we're in bed W asks me to either rub her or "comfort touch" her (her term for a light massage that helps soothe her to sleep), and Sunday night was no exception. Gave her a gentle head massage until I could tell from her breathing she was asleep. I have to remind myself that this does NOT mean anything and that I must assume that since the last thing she communicated is that she intends to move out, this is still her plan. In the meantime however, I am following some advice I read here from one of the vets and am creating as much pleasantness and good feelings while W is still here in the house. A massage, for example, costs me nothing. To offer one is to pursue, but I think to give one when asked creates good will and gives her something to miss when (and I must say "when" not "if") she leaves.
Did you ever meet someone who has cat that, if you try to approach it and pet it, it runs away? No matter how nice you try to be to it, no matter how much coaxing, the more you try to get it to come to you, the more it backs off and runs away. But, if you ignore it and just go about your business quietly and confidently, it will come out from it's hiding place behind the couch and approach you, and if you don't show too much interest it will tentatively sniff your hand or rub your leg and then if you show it just the right amount of attention it will suddenly start to purr and snuggle you.
I've realized that, right now, my wife is that cat.
I don't come to her, I let her come to me. Right now I don't pursue, but I do respond as skillfully as I can. Every hug, every request for some small affection I consider a tiny victory. They might not mean anything, I can't take them as signs she has changed her mind. But, for example, when she left this morning for yoga she came into my home office and walked over and gave me a good solid hug before leaving. She didn't need to do that, but she did. And if I'm going to engage in some kind of accounting of our situation... It's better she did that than walk out the door with nothing more than "good bye" or "see you later"...
So, still just recapping and journaling for myself... kind of hard to remember what I've written and what I haven't since my posts still aren't showing up, but just writing is therapeutic. One week today since the bomb was dropped. Got a nice hug before W left in the morning today. She made this little noise when she hugged me...this sound we both make when we're feeling particularly...close to each other. A little cooing noise. Stuff like that makes me want to say "why why why do you do things like that if you want a divorce?!?!" Thank god I've been able (so far) to keep my trap shut.
She mentioned today that she noticed I've been working out a lot this past week. Wasn't sure how to respond so just said "yeah, I've been trying to stick to it at least 3 times a week" and left it at that. Gut reaction was to say that I was trying to keep myself busy but managed to keep that to myself.
Every Monday night she takes the kids to her parents (who live right down the street) for dinner, so that's where they'll be tonight. Kind of pissed that they're allowing her to move in with them...I could understand if it was a situation involving abuse or something similar, but I don't think giving her an easy out is really beneficial. I was raised in a family in which my parents' attitude would be something like "we're sorry you're having problems but you're adults and you need to work this out in a way that doesn't involve moving back in with us." Oh well. Nothing I can do about that. I know she will have some kind of conversation with her parents tonight about our situation and what her plans are, so I'm going to try to mentally prepare myself for that...which essentially means prepare myself to shut my mouth, open my ears, and rehearse the phrase "I understand how you feel and you've given me some things to think about."
Journaling...
Wife came home from parents with no mention of move-out date, etc. kind of a surprise. Put the kids to bed and then asked if I cared if she went out to meet some friends. What was I going to say? Wish I had just stuck with "not at all" but instead went with the slightly lengthier "I always prefer your company but I also don't mind if you want to go meet up with your friends". That's not too bad I guess. Plus it's the truth, so...
What I found most interesting is that before she left she came over and sat on my lap, and in the way out the door she called me "babe".
I think the take-away here is to not obsess over everything she says...or that I say.
Journaling...
Wife texted last night while she was out to let me know she was on her way home and hoped I would still be up. Didn't respond to the text but it just so happened that I was still awake, watching TV on the couch, and W was happy to see that I was still up when she got home. Hung out for an hour or so, talking (NOT relationship talk) and listening to music. Noticed a little pull-back when we went to bed though... didn't get the usual close contact. And she was definitely more withdrawn this morning. Maybe it's the elastic/rubber band effect I've read about here. At any rate, once I noticed her demeanor I backed off and left her alone. Still got a hug for her when she left for a lunch date with her friend (an extremely non-marriage-positive friend, I might add), and quietly noticed she had her wedding ring on--she takes it off every night because her fingers swell while she sleeps, which means she had to make a point of putting it on before she left today. So... might not mean anything, but I'll take whatever small victories I can get.
Well... I think I can safely assume how my wife's lunch date with her friend went. Things sure got cool around here right quick.
I think I need to assume, no matter what, that the other shoe is going to drop.
GAL has been difficult because of our work schedules and how often I'm at home with the kids, but I've been in touch with a couple of old friends (wife specifically mentioned the other day that she was mad at me for neglecting my friends) and wife knows I have pending plans with them.
180's are tricky here too, because W says the problem isn't anything I'm doing/not doing now, it's her resentment regarding the past...and that something is "just missing".
I think my number one priority is going to be getting out of the house on my own three nights a week... even one would be a good start.
Still journaling...
Ugh... Major upheaval at work. Looks like there may be lay-offs or some kind of similar measures (already took a salary cut several years ago). This is not going to help things at home. Not good at all.
I guess the big question is... Do I discuss the work situation with my wife? I feel like this news, right now, is going to shove her right out the door.
Boy when it rains it sure does pour...
Journaling...
Well, things have definitely gone screwy at work. Looks like by the end of the year there's a good chance I will be unemployed AND divorced...
Sunday should be interesting. Wife brought up our situation for the first time since dropping the bomb 10 days ago. She asked me if I was doing ok since we hadn't talked about anything since bomb drop. I told her I was doing good and that I hadn't brought it up because I didn't have anything new to add, and that I had been assuming if she had something to say at some point, she would say it.
She said she had been thinking the same thing, and that she had figured she would give me time and space to process things. I told her I had definitely been doing some processing, and then suggested we go out on Sunday for drinks and appetizers...and presumably to talk about "things". Her demeanor suggests it's not going to be anything good...she's certainly not acting like she's had a change of heart. Things have been continuing to cool down. Not sure in what the point of waiting until Sunday is, or why we need to go somewhere, but I'm just following her lead here. If she wants to wait until Sunday to talk and if she wants to go somewhere to do it, so be it.
Should be interesting. Guess the tact is to say little and listen a lot.
So here's something I'm really having a hard time figuring out how to handle...
Wife says she wants a divorce. There's been no discussion about it since then (10 days ago or so) until last night, when she says she wants just the two of us to go out and talk. Nothing about her demeanor suggests it will be good. But she still asks me just about every night to massage her to sleep, because she can't get to sleep otherwise, and she literally just called me on the phone in my home office and asked me to bring her coffee in bed. What do I say to those types of requests? Flat out no? If I told someone I was divorcing them, I wouldn't continue to ask them for ANYthing. I would be as kind and gentle to them as I could be, but not ask them to comfort ME in any way, shape, or form. Not sure what to do here...
IC today. Therapist thinks if I have well-formed thoughts about our situation I should feel free to share them with W now instead of waiting for Sunday. I have processed a lot and do have things I want to say...nothing accusatory... more along the lines of sharing some of my truths while still acknowledging/accepting/validating hers. But I know the DB way is to not be the one to bring it up, which suggests waiting until Sunday... and even then not saying anything, I guess. Although if she gives a move-out date, I think I will say a few things before going as dark as possible when you have kids. My assumption is that'll be when she gives me her exit plan... but I guess I don't know that for sure.
Had a good talk with W last night...not sure if it's in line with DBing, but she asked me how my IC session was, and I said it was good and that it had actually helped me realize that I wanted to apologize for a couple of things I had done in the past that at the time I didn't realize were hurtful. She thanked me for the apology and said it meant a lot to her to hear me acknowledge those hurtful things. Then she offered an apology of her own, for treating me so poorly (her words) the past 6 by going out so much and drinking, basically treating me like a live in babysitter...actually, like even less than a babysitter because at least with a babysitter you give them the respect of letting them know where you are and when you'll be home.
The thing is, I'm starting to get that "babysitter" feeling again... and it doesn't sit right with me. I haven't said anything because it seems like DBing says not too...at least not right now. And I'm just trying to DB my ass off and at the very least keep the peace until Sunday when we go out for our "talk" and I find out exactly what it is she has to say. It definitely doesn't seem fair and equitable though that because she works nights on the weekend, she takes that as an opportunity to go out and party after work while I'm home with the kids...and then sleeps in the next day while I get up with the kids because she comes home drunk at 2:00/2:30 in the morning. In fact part of her whole apology last night was acknowledging how unfair that was, and yet I get a text at 11:00 tonight saying that work was crazy and she's going out for "a drink or two" and will be back "later tonight". WTF is that? Is it DBing to just say "ok" to that? I feel like saying "look, if you're serious about divorcing, then we need to get serious about what's fair about going out/childcare.
Am I ever going to get off moderation?!?!?
So I guess this is what I'm thinking regarding my W's going out all the time: I say nothing *at least* until Sunday when I hear whatever it is she has to say. If she's moving out immediately, then there is no point in saying anything other than good bye and good luck, and then going as dark as possible...no contact other than for childcare related issues.
However, if we are going to continue living under the same roof then I feel like some boundaries need to be set... Of course me trying to set some fair boundaries is what preceded her saying she wanted a divorce, so... There's the dilemma.
Is it cake-eating if W still wants me to do little things for her? Rub her back? Bring her coffee in the morning, etc? Part of me wants to say "are you crazy, you want a divorce, get your own damn coffee" but the other part of me has always enjoyed doing thise things, so why stop now, especially if it builds good will and gives her something to miss when she moves out.
Wife came home from her night out at about 1:45am. This is actually an accomplishment, as it means she left at last call instead of staying until the bar actually closed. I woke up shen she came in but feigned sleep...just seemed easier that way. She got into bed and said "I'm home" and curled up next me, but then it was like she caught herself and moved away from me.
I got up with the kids this morning per usual on weekends.
I guess the big question is... Do I discuss the work situation with my wife? I feel like this news, right now, is going to shove her right out the door.
Boy when it rains it sure does pour...
Best to keep mouth shut and eyes and ears open.
Agreed, thanks! I haven't said anything. It will most likely be months before anyone is let go, if it comes to that. And if it does come to that, and if I'm one of the unlucky ones, hopefully my marriage will be on more stable ground by then.
Tomorrow can't come soon enough, the suspense is killing me. There is a small part of me that wants to believe W just wants to go out for the sake of going out. I must remind myself that this is probably just her way of delivering bad news to me. Funny, we're going to the restaurant we went to 2 years ago for our anniversary. Just going to stay positive no matter what. It will be interesting to hear what her plan is at any rate.
I wonder, when DBing, if you suspect your spouse is lying to you...lying about where she's going, what she's doing...making up excuses for coming late, do you just keep your mouth shut? The obvious answer seems to be to keep your mouth shut... But that doesn't seem to command much respect. If you just swallow their lies, doesn't that make you come off looking LESS attractive instead of more attractive?
It's funny how things work. My wife and I have completed a full circle, right back where we started the last time things fell apart. I thought we had learned to ask each other for what we want, but as it turns out while I was asking for what I want, she has been stuffing her feelings, hiding her negative emotions, and avoiding conflict...to the point that it has poisoned her entire view of me and our marriage, and it makes her think we weren't meant to be together. She says that when it comes to me, she doesn't know how to express negativity. She thinks it's particular to me, but I've noticed this is how she relates to everybody. She's a people pleaser. Not sure how to negotiate that. My IC thinks that rather than meaning we weren't meant to be together, it really means we were brought together to learn from each other. No convincing my W of that though (not that I've tried). Who knows what W's IC thinks...but I get the impression her IC is of the "just divorce him and find yourself" mindset.
Well, today is the big day...I'll finally get to find out what's been brewing in W's head for the past week. She made it home from work around 1am last night. She made some small talk when she got into bed, and then mentioned that she was looking forward to our afternoon together the next day. Seems like kind of a sadistic thing to say if that's when she's planning on giving me her exit plan. Really not sure what to expect at this point...
So my day with W went great... but was quite strange in a way. It seems what W wanted to talk about was primarily how my IC was going and what my thoughts were on the D and how to tell the kids. I know it's not really in keeping with DBing, but I took it as an opportunity to both acknowledge and validate her perspective while also sharing mine.
Essentially, I told her I understood and respected her feelings and decisions and that I believed she had the right to do what she felt was best for her. However, I also told her that in the course of my IC I had come to believe that the problems we were dealing with were ultimately best dealt with in the context of the marriage because 1) there were children involved, and 2) the problems we were having were not going to go away for us by getting divorced. We both have deeply ingrained ways of dealing with significant others, and we were going to continue these patterns until we "fixed" them regardless of who we were involved with in the future. She in turn shared all of the things that she had been hurting and suffering over, all of which I validated.
The funny thing is, our behavior during this conversation was like that of two young lovers. She kept initiating physical affection, kissing and touching, and twice during the afternoon other people came by our table and told us what a cute couple we made. If they only had any idea of what our conversation was about!
I think I am clearly dealing with a woman who is at her wit's end, doesn't believe anything will ever change, and doesn't believe her resentment will ever go away. But there also seems to be some wiggle room in there somewhere...there is definitely love and affection in there. Once we were home, toward the end of the evening, things were definitely starting to cool down again. So after the two of us hung out outside with some friends/neighbors for a bit, I backed off and went and made dinner for the kids and got them ready for the school week etc. W asked if I cared if she went next door to her friend's while took care of all that business and I said sure and that's pretty much how we wound down the day.
I can tell there is a war going on in W's head, one that I can only let her fight on her own.
Holy cow... I'm off moderation?!?
One small thing I think is notable... My wife mentioned during our conversation that she noticed I had been so cool and calm ever since she dropped the bomb, and she didn't quite know what to make of it.
Well, the rubber band effect seems to continue as my wife alternates between pulling away then coming closer, pulling away, then back, etc. Yesterday I got hugs and requests for massages, today I get barely a hello/goodbye. I try to remain the same no matter what...cool, calm, and consistent.
This morning W mentioned her aunt had offered to fly her and the kids out to Oregon for a week this summer for a "semi"-family reunion. Mostly the women of the family...W's father and brothers etc won't be going (actually don't think W's sister and her family are going either). Still, I've almost always been included in those types of trips, even if it's just to help watch the kids so my wife can enjoy her time with aunts a little more fully. No mention of me going at all...which is to be expected but stung a little bit. I didn't say anything of course. Mentioned that maybe I would try to take a camping trip sometime during that week.
During our lunch a couple days ago W said she had discussed in her IC what the best way to tell the kids about our situation would be... but never indicated she had come up with what exactly that would be. Nor was there any discussion of an actual move-out date, or a firm plan for childcare/custody. W still has the idea of "50/50" for our time with the kids, but no plan of how we would actually make that work. No discussion of the situation since then.
One complaint W shared with me was that if she had her way, our house would have had an open door to her friends and family to come and hang out whenever they wanted, but she felt like she always had to have my permission first. I apologized for that, and told her that moving forward for however much time we were under the same roof together, this was her house too and she had a right to have it operate the way she saw fit. She mentioned that even her brother, who I have a very close relationship with, had said he had kind of felt hesitant to come over sometimes. Apparently he also told her that no matter what, he wanted to maintain his friendship with me and hoped that was ok with her. I ended up calling him (fully disclosed to W) to make sure he knew I love him and apologized to him for ever making him feel like it might not be ok for him to come over and essentially told him the same thing I told W--that as long as we were in this house together he was welcomed to come over any time.
Funny... just dawned on me that all of the aunts W will be going out to visit in Oregon are divorced. W's mom will be the only one there who went through marital strife of her own and decided to stick it out. W's mom actually cheated on her dad for quite some time, but they worked it out and have now been together for 30+ years. It has occurred to me to ask W at some point if she thinks her mom and dad would be better off today if they had gotten divorced...or if W thinks she and her sister/brothers would have been better off. I think her answer would be "no", but I guess it's a question that from the DB perspective I shouldn't even ask.
Ugh... Had a conversation with my FIL this evening that I almost would rather not have had. He asked me over because he wanted to let me know that he knew what was up (obviously since W says she's moving in there), and that he and MIL will be there for the kids. I'm sort of upset they're letting W move in, but kept it to myself. He also let me know that he and MIL love me and hope we can work things out, although he doesn't think that's going to happen. I told him I loved them too, loved their daughter, and pretty much left it at that. I did ask if he knew when she was planning on moving in and he said he had no idea.
W is going to a concert Saturday with a girlfriend, so I'm having the kids stay at the in-laws so I can get some GAL in myself.
180s that look like pursuit...or like I'm not moving on. How does one handle those? For example, W always complained that I never responded to her texts. So now when she texts I feel like I need to be on it, but how does that fit in with DBing?
Drop the rope, detach, and let her float away.
I would do ANYthing to spare the kids the suffering they will experience, but that is beyond my control. That is my greatest regret in all of this.
I control nothing but my own thoughts and behavior.
I am a good person who always has tried to do the right thing, and have always attempted to fix my flaws when brought to my attention.
I am a good person who deserves love.
Drop the rope, detach, and let her float away.
180s that look like pursuit...or like I'm not moving on. How does one handle those? For example, W always complained that I never responded to her texts. So now when she texts I feel like I need to be on it, but how does that fit in with DBing?
If it was a complaint of hers then I would try and respond in a timely manner if it's anything important. But keep in mind that WAS's look at EVERYTHING the LBS does as "too little too late". You have to stick to your 180's over a long period of time for it to change the WAS's perception of you.
In your OP you mentioned that she felt neglected, have you read the 5 Love Languages?
In your OP you mentioned that she felt neglected, have you read the 5 Love Languages?
I have read the 5LLs. I can't remember what the exact terminology was, but hers is something like Quality Time and mine is Physical Touch/Affection. She's not interested in spending quality together right now, despite the great "date" we had this past weekend (at her suggestion...I think she suggested we go out as an opportunity to talk without the kids around, but we ended up having a great time together).
Acts of Service was her other LL... I've been keeping those up even though they don't seem in line with DBing because she is still asking for/receiving them graciously.
She's not interested in spending quality together right now
You're absolutely right, I was suggesting the book because it helps to understand what went wrong between both of you (it wasn't all just you) and how to do things differently in the future whether that's with your W or with someone new. There are LL techniques in the book that you can use on a WAS but yes, you have to be careful because the WAS views much of it as "too late for that".
despite the great "date" we had this past weekend (at her suggestion...I think she suggested we go out as an opportunity to talk without the kids around, but we ended up having a great time together).
Good! Things like this don't "fix" your sitch, but they pave the way to future reconciliation. Like 25 says- keep the way home paved and smooth. You can't get a tow truck, hook it to her and drag her home, but if you keep the way home smooth then perhaps some day she'll choose to make that drive
The two biggest 180's I could make (based on what I now know are her 2 biggest complaints) would be to 1) Take her out once a week, anywhere, with me planning it; and 2) Being willing to accompany her places without her having to convince me...that is, going willingly instead of essentially having to be begged.
Because she is a WAW, #2 is out right now...I don't think I'll be getting any invites any time soon. #1 is within my control, but doesn't seem to align with DBing... the whole "no pursuit" thing. But, I was thinking maybe a work around...a good 180 for both myself and potentially for "us", would be to extend an invite to her to go out along the lines of "I'm planning on ________ and would love for you to join me, but if you prefer not to I'm still going to go and will ask _____ instead." This would actually be a double 180 because another complaint of hers is that I've neglected my friendships, and I need to remedy that no matter what (which makes for some good GAL as well!). Any vets care to weigh in on that?
Speaking of GAL, I heard back from an old buddy of mine, so while W is at her concert with her friend on Saturday I'm sending the kids to the in-laws for the night and I'm going to go hang out with him. W was super-pleased to hear about that.
So, as of now nothing has changed W's feelings about the D, but I have been being Super Dad, working out regularly, picking up all the slack around the house, not questioning where W goes or what she does, continuing her LL "acts of service", and being 100% positive at all times...and I know it's been noticed.
This morning took a turn for the kind of a crazy. I was in my home office working when I heard a knocking on the shower wall coming from my wife's bathroom. Usually that means she needs a towel or something, so I walked in and she was standing naked in the bathtub with the water running and the shower door open, looking like she had seen a ghost. She managed to gasp that she was having an anxiety/panic attack of some sort and then just kind of started to lose it... shaking, crying, hyperventilating, barely able to stay on her feet...the whole deal. It was pretty scary. I ended up carrying her to bed and once there she asked me to just sit with her because she was afraid to be alone. I ended up having to call her boss to say she wouldn't be in. Other than an IC session I had to attend a couple of hours later, I've been caretaking for most of the rest of the day.
Not sure what to make of that, but it was a weird experience for sure.
I've really been "single dad'ing" for quite some time, when I think about... W isn't a bad mom by any means, but I've really been doing the bulk of keeping the household together lately, whereas it definitely used to be more of a 50/50 split.
Spent the day working at home and taking care of W after her panic attack, went to IC, picked up the kids from school and made dinner, did bath time, cleaned up around the house/laundry... It's really just gotten to be routine for me. W asked me for a rub down this evening and then later thanked me for taking care of her today. Told me she was super happy that the panic attack happened on a day when I was working at home because she didn't know what she would have done if it had been an in-office day for me and said that it was beyond nice to have me there. Part of me felt like saying "yeah, and WTF will you do once you've moved out and I'm NOT there anymore?" but I of course kept my mouth shut. I just told her that she was more than welcome and I was glad she was feeling better.
She just left to go visit her sister and I could tell by her demeanor that it wasn't just a friendly visit... this will be when she breaks the news to her sister. Guess that's mind-reading but I'm reasonably confident in my assumption. Doesn't really matter though because I just keep my pleasant, cool and calm mood no matter what. Told her I hoped she had a good time and she came and gave me a hug and then rolled out. So... just going to spend some quality time with the kids before their bedtime and then probably hit the sheets not long after they do.
I've noticed I have some anger, albeit well-hidden, toward her parents for "saving" her by allowing her to move in with them. Going to need to handle that. Also bothers me that she's surrounded by cheerleaders telling her divorce is the way to personal fulfillment and happiness... kind of wish there was at least one person in her life that would suggest to her that this was perhaps not going to achieve what she thinks it will achieve...
Funny, my wife said something on the way out the door to visit her sister that perfectly exemplifies the disconnect in our thinking. She asked me if I was mad at her because she was still going to her sister's tonight despite the fact that she didn't go to work today and spent most of the day in bed recovering from her panic attack.
It never in a million years would have occurred to me to be mad about that.
Ever.
Being mad was the furthest thing from my mind. And I told her that. That I wasn't mad, and being mad never even crossed my thoughts. She said it was like Catholic guilt... "you didn't go to church so you don't get to go out and play"... and that was just how her mind worked. I told her I didn't think that way at all and her going to her sister's didn't bother me at all... but what I feel like I should have mentioned (although it didn't occur to me at the time) was that she can't project her mindset on to me... that's part of what got us here; her continually thinking that I'm thinking something that I'm not. Is there a tactful DB way to do that?
Just journaling the weirdness of a WAW...
W goes off to her sister's last night, presumably to talk about the D. A couple of hours later I get a text from her saying she's going to be staying later than she originally thought and that she'll be home around midnight. Because one of her complaints has been that I don't respond to her texts, I waited 5/10 minutes and then answered back with a simple "ok" (180's: responding to texts and not asking anything else about her plans/what she's doing). About 15 min later I get another text from her, this time a photo of W and sis in front of the firepit. Waited a few again and then responded that it was a sweet photo. She sent another pic of them a couple of minutes later and I responded with a smiley face emoticon.
Two things are notable here and part of me wants to speculate even though from a DB perspective I know I shouldn't. One is that W texted me to let me know what her plan was. A huge complaint of mine for the past 6 months or so has been her going out without ever keeping touch to let me know what her plans are and specifically when she thought she'd be clear. She's always been free to pretty much do what she wants when she wants; I always wanted what I felt like was a minimum, baseline level of respect/consideration of her letting me know the basic where's and when's of her plans. For the past 6 months or so it's been like pulling teeth to get her to do that, but ever since the bomb drop and I started DBing there's been a huge turnaround on her part regarding that.
The other thing I think is notable is that she actually came home at the time she said she would, because again this is a turnaround for her. Previously if she gave me a come-home time she almost never stuck to it, but now she has been.
I don't know if there's any relevance to those two things, but I appreciate them regardless.
One thing I think is strange though is that W would go to her sisters to talk about our sitch, and then spend any amount of time sending me pics of the two of them. Just seems kind of weird to me, like "I told stumps I want a divorce...hey, let's send him a couple of quick pics of the two of us..."
Hmm, guess the edit function doesn't work? That should be "when she thought she'd be home" not "when she thought she'd be clear".
And of course... she asked me to massage her neck and back when we woke up this morning. Hope she misses that when she moves out.
Also must make a point of not asking her about her sister's and how it went/if she had a good time. If she brings it up I will listen attentively, but I won't be the one to bring it up.
Journaling...
W left for work around 4:30pm and said she felt like she was on the verge of having another panic attack. She texted me a couple of hours later to say she ended up having an attack while she was almost at work and had to pull over and have her manager/friend come get her. Apparently manager/friend took her to her other friend's house, who lives right near work and she is going to stay there until after manager/friend's shift is over and then get a ride back to her car. I don't think that's really going to happen. I expect to get another text saying she is going to stay at friend's house tonight...
She also has plans to go to concert with manager/friend tomorrow night...bet those plans won't be cancelled.
Here's what I find interesting... I'm the one getting "dumped", I don't want this divorce, I think it's going to be hell for the kids, and yet... I'm the one cool and calm and even-keeled. I'm the one going about my business with a positive attitude.
Meanwhile... this is ostensibly what W wants. This is her decision. I don't give her grief about ANYthing. She does what she wants, when she wants. Not only do I not question her, I SUPPORT her in just about everything she does. She's free to go whenever she wants. And yet SHE is the one having panic attacks?
I'm willing to bet she would attribute it to being "stuck" in the house with me, and yet... I talked to my FIL tonight and he said W is free to move in whenever she's ready. She's not stuck. She can go whenever she wants. We even discussed the fact that she could move into her parents any time she wanted (they live two houses away!) and I would stay in the house with the kids. I don't see how it gets any better than that for a WAW, and yet... she's still here. But she's the one having panic attacks.
I don't get it.
I'm torn between eagerly awaiting what she has to say in the wake of this attack, and just not giving a s@#t.
You are still too focused on her. Obviously, she's having issues. Focus on you and your changes and what you want going forward. That's where the payoff will be. Hang in there.
You are still too focused on her.
You know...I was all set to deny that, and then I realized that that would be like an alcoholic denying he has a drinking problem when someone suggests it to him... So, while I can't quite deny it, I will say that the extent to which I'm focused on her might be at least slightly less than it seems since a lot of what I'm doing here is venting/journaling. At the very least, I'm reasonably confident that W doesn't see it...I can say with pretty high certainty that what's in my head stays in my head... Still, I see and appreciate your point. What's in my head is still something I need to work on.
That having been said, I would appreciate feedback from anyone on a particular 180/GAL... W has always complained that I've neglected my friendships and "don't have any friends anymore". Which isn't 100% true, but true enough. My closest friends don't live near by anymore... but I certainly could have made some trips to visit them. To my credit I do keep in touch with them online, but I know that's not the same thing. So from my W's perspective my life is just work, the kids, and her.
So I've been getting in touch with some friends that I haven't seen in forever, and actually went out to dinner with one of them last night while W was at a concert with one of her girlfriends. Here's the thing though... the friend I went out with is female. I've known her for close to 20 years and it's totally 100% platonic, and W knows this...but I wonder if there might be some unintended consequences of this. I know GAL is for me, but 180's/GAL are also supposed to draw the WAW back in, so I don't necessarily want to do anything that is going to push W further away either.
W knows I went out with old female friend (OFF) and one OFF's girlfriends last night, and she knows I have plans to meet them again for lunch today while W is at work. When I mentioned to W that I was meeting up with them again she jokingly said "boy you sure can't get enough of OFF can you?", and then followed that by saying she was just kidding and it didn't bother her. I am wondering though... W can be 1) very jealous, and 2) is what most people would describe as quite attractive, and 3) regularly has other men hit on her. It's never bothered me though...and I've never tried to control W or anything like that. She however has always been very quick to get a little rankled when another woman pays me some kind of attention... I could almost see W thinking "well if stumps is going to go out with OFF, then I'm going to go out with one of the many people who hit on me".
I just want to tread lightly here. When I'm GALing, should I be careful in what I chose to do? Or should I simply do whatever works for me. Like I said, I know the focus is on me...but I also am trying to achieve two goals here. Becoming a better me, and becoming attractive to my W again.
Two small positives I'm noting for myself: 1) W continues to wear wedding ring when she goes out and I noticed she put it on today before leaving for work (she takes it off at night because her fingers swell). 2) I never initiate physical contact with her, but she has been continuing to hug me before she leaves for work, which I thought maybe she's been doing for appearances for the kids, but she made a point of coming and giving me a hug before leaving for work today even though the kids are at the in-laws. Not letting it get my hopes up by any means...but I guess it's better than nothing.
Had a great day with W and kids today. First day of Spring Break so we took the kids to lunch and then later on went to my in-laws' house for dinner. In between, W asked me to come hang out on the patio with her for a little while, so I did. I could tell she wanted to talk to me about something, and we ended up having an R talk.
W said she noticed all of the changes I had made, and acknowledged how good things have been between us since she dropped the bomb. Apparently, this is making her think that I don't take her decision about the D seriously, or that I think she's changed her mind. She wanted to make it clear that she hasn't changed her mind about anything, and she says she keeps waiting for things to turn sour and for me to start getting angry and hating her.
For the most part I just listened to what she had to say, and I validated everything. I told her that I was under no impression that she had changed her mind about anything, and that as far as I was concerned she meant what she had told me about wanting to divorce and my assumption was that was still where we were headed. She then asked me why I was being such a "good person" if I really believed that we were splitting up. I'm not sure if this was the right response or not, but I told her that basically I felt like a person in my position has choices to make... become a better person for the sake of becoming a better person, do nothing and therefore lose an opportunity to grow and change for the better, or worst of all, become bitter and angry and thereby increase the suffering of everyone involved. I told her I was consciously choosing to do what I can to become a better person for my own sake and for the sake of my children, and that that has nothing to do with not believing that she's serious about divorcing.
She told me she thought that my response was pretty rare, and pretty amazing, because she doesn't think that most people would respond that way. She reiterated, however, that she still wants to divorce. However, now she's saying it's because she thinks she has some personal growth that she needs to accomplish and her life needs to go in a different direction, and she believes that can't happen if she stays married.
However, now she's saying it's because she thinks she has some personal growth that she needs to accomplish and her life needs to go in a different direction, and she believes that can't happen if she stays married.
I know I'm not supposed to be focusing on my W, but this has stuck with me ever since she said it...more so than anything else she's said. Mainly because it's the only thing she's said that hasn't made some kind ofsense to me... What does it even mean? Is this just something that some WAWs say? Is it part of a typical script?
Do I ask for clarification of what exact "personal growth" and "different direction" she's talking about (yeah, pretty sure I know what DBing says about asking those questions). I didn't say anything when she said it to me last night, I just validated her feelings... But it has been turning over in my mind. Her list of complaints, my flaws and the various ways I've fallen short in the marriage, those all make sense to me. But the personal growth/different direction stuff is just a real WTF for me. Especially because I addressed some similar type issues in my IC earlier in our marriage, and my therapist always had the perspective that 99.9% of the time there is no growth that can happen outside of the marriage that can't also happen within it.
W did identify one of the main sources of her unhappiness. She said she never felt like I was proud to be seen with her. Which is crazy in a way because I think my wife is beautiful (and for better or worse so do a lot of other people), and I have always loved that a good looking magnetic charismatic person like her was my "better half" and that people knew it when were out together. I guess the problem was that I didn't arrange those outings with her enough myself. Very infrequently. I have been very neglectful in that regard. No denying that. I think in my mind I was trying not to smother her or make her feel like I thought I owned her...
So, I know that if we were to start piecing I would need to take her out once a week and make all the arrangements myself. That's what she needs to feel special.
Some positive movement (I think) on my W's part.
Part of doing 180's for me has been to immediately acknowledge W's feelings when she points out something I've done that she doesn't like or hurts her, instead of saying "yeah but..." or pointing my finger back at her in defense. So when she told me how often she felt like I didn't like going out with/being seen with her...how much she felt like I wasn't proud to be with her, I validated her feelings right away, telling her that I completely understood why she would feel that way--that anyone in her position would feel the same way in response to my behavior. I took a calculated risk and said a little more, explaining how I truly feel about her and noting that the tragedy here was that my behavior had often made her feel the exact opposite.
I was already in bed when W got home from work, and for the first time in the past couple of weeks she got in next to me and curled up in my arms and told me that off and on all day she had been thinking about what I said and how good it made her feel. We ended up staying up for another hour or so, just talking about stuff (non-R stuff), and at one point she grabbed one of her journals and start reading me some of her creative writing. She said she just felt like sharing part of herself with me, part of herself that she had never shared and didn't feel comfortable sharing with anyone else. It felt like a really nice, special moment.
At one point W mentioned meeting up with her yoga mentor for some appetizers tomorrow evening, and without really thinking about it I suggested that once they were done catching up I could meet up with them afterward and she said that she would really like that (making that suggestion is actually a 180 for me, even though it's one that looks like pursuit). We ended up falling asleep with her head on my shoulders and her arms wrapped around mine, which used to be a nightly occurrence but hasn't been happening for the past couple of weeks.
So...seems like these are positive signs...I hope, but not going to get my hopes up. No "I love you" as she went out the door for work today, but got an earnest hug which was nice. I'm just going to live as if her mind is still made up about moving out/D, and continue to focus on my 180's and GAL. Have two GAL activities lining up: Looked into taking drum lessons yesterday, and have a concert coming up in a week or so. I bought two tickets figuring I would get someone to go with me and even if I can't find someone I'll just go by myself.
Continuing to see some positive signs; must continue to remind myself not to take them for more than they're worth...
W came home from work and snuggled up with me on the couch, gave me a kiss on the lips when she got up to fix something to eat, and then asked if I wanted to hang out with her by the firepit when it got dark out. Had a really good time doing that with her, and she remarked several times what a wonderful evening she was having. In-laws stopped by for a bit so we had a nice visit with them, and a little later one of W's friends who lives across the street came over and hung out. This made W extremely happy and gave me a 180 opportunity because I'v ways been a bit stand-offish with the neighbors but this time I was very welcoming and we ended up having a great time.
I think it's worth noting that W mentioned to me that one of her friends told her that despite "everything that's going on" I seem happier recently than I have in a long time. FIL also pulled me aside at one point and said that he and MIL have been quietly watching what's going on and that they're extremely proud of how I'm handling everything and that they hope W will change course. "We're your biggest fans" is one of the things he said to me... Made me feel really good about myself.
I think it's worth noting that W mentioned to me that one of her friends told her that despite "everything that's going on" I seem happier recently than I have in a long time. FIL also pulled me aside at one point and said that he and MIL have been quietly watching what's going on and that they're extremely proud of how I'm handling everything and that they hope W will change course. "We're your biggest fans" is one of the things he said to me... Made me feel really good about myself.
This made me cry, very nice to hear that!
This made me cry, very nice to hear that!
Thanks! Yes, I couldn't have asked for feedback better than that, and that it was unsolicited really made it all the better.
I know I have to tread cautiously though... Even as W sems to soften and move closer to me, I am expecting another big pull-back from her at some point. I will just try to stay as consistent as possible and stick to my changes. I am noticing the positive effects they are bringing about in my life, not just in my R with my W. I know that if I can keep this up, and W chooses to leave any way, I will have become a better person anyway (albeit a work in progress) and I will be able to hold my head up high.
Just going to take things one day at a time.
LOL! Well, that sure didn't take long... Close and warm has already given way to cold and distant. That's ok, I know the drill. Just staying cool, calm, and consistent. To paraphrase a wiser soul on this forum: W happy, Stumps happy. W angry, Stumps happy. W reclusive, Stumps happy. Etc etc etc. Just going to keep doing what I know is right, and what I need to do to become a better stronger happier healthier person.
The kids have finally started verbalizing that they've noticed something is up with their mom. S10 mentioned that it seems like I'm doing all the housework, cooking, laundry, etc lately, and that she was going out a lot more often with her friends and wasn't home that often to put him and his sister to bed. I wasn't sure what to say, so I just told him that I thought W has been feeling a little blue lately and that I didn't mind pucking up the slack around the house for a while because that's what you do when you care about someone. Hope that was the right thing to say...
At the end of the day, I know I'm a work in progress, but I am becoming a person that only a fool would leave...
Well, if there's one thing I can say for sure...I'm finally really understanding the "rollercoaster" analogy. W is all over the place emotionally, while I try to remain centered at all times. I am learning to become my own rock...and doing a pretty decent job if I may be so bold.
It's interesting to see the ebb and flow of W's behavior and the way she responds to and acts toward me. One minute she'll be pulling me toward her, wrapping her arms around me and loving me up, and then the winds will change and she will be distant and removed. I am trying to respond "appropriately" in all situations, which means (I hope) being loving toward her when she expresses it toward me, and giving her space during the times when she pulls back.
I see the back and forth in her behavior as a good thing...certainly it's better than if there were no positive displays of emotion/behavior from her at all. We had a good day together yesterday. Went clothes shopping together and ended up in a "couples" dressing room because the store was so busy, which allowed for some playful moments between us. W texted from work later that night to say she couldn't wait to get home, and later on in bed she remarked how much she had enjoyed shopping with me. I made Easter baskets for the kids last night and put together a small one for W as well, and actually got a kiss on the lips for that one...That's one of the things I miss most in this situation...not the sex per se (although I *do* miss that), but the physical affection, the smaller displays...kissing, hand-holding. Right up until the bomb drop we would hold hands in bed while falling asleep. I miss that a ton. But...c'est la vie...
So all in all, I'll certainly take a mix of good and bad over having things be all bad. As long as I focus on myself and what I need to be doing I will ultimately be ok, no matter what tough times may be ahead.
Ugh... So... Major backslide or setback yesterday. Not quite sure what to call it. Had a great Easter with the family at W's aunt and uncle's house. Afterward as we were walking to the car W remarked what a wonderful time she had and remarked something like "where has this Stumps been? I haven't seen him in so long." Wasn't sure how to respond so I just said he's been inside me all along, he just needed a little help to shine throught. "Fair enough" W responded and we had fun pleasant conversation the whole way home.
However... as soon as we got home in the evening W headed right back out to meet up with a friend "for an hour or so". Well, an hour or so turned
into 3 hours, than 4, than 5 with no word from her. I have been doing a stellar job of not questionning where she goes and what she does, but this time...it got under my skin. She skipped the kids' dinner, bath, and bedtimes without
so much as a text and after answering the kids' "when's Mom coming home?" questions with "I don't know" for the umpteenth time my calm started
to crack.
W finally came home around 11pm, fairly trashed, and said she'd been out having a "pity party" for herself regarding the D. Said she was pissed at me and felt ripped off because of all the changes I'm making now that she's planning on leaving. Said she's happy for me seeing all the positive changes in my life but so angry that the D is what it took to make them happen. Said she's still planningon leaving and is just waiting for me to tell her what my plan is before we break it to the kids. I told her my only real option is to move about two hours away to the town where we had been looking for a house together because that was the closest place I could afford to live on my own. She doesn't like that idea for some reason and insists there must be something closer (there isn't) and I responded as gently as I could that I had fully explored my options and that this is what was going to work best for me since I was in a situation in which there was no way for me to stay any closer to the kids.
I could be wrong, but I've been "single dad'ing" it for so long at this point I think it may have dawned on her that D means I'm not going to be around in the same capacity anymore. For the sake of the kids I would be if I could, I just can't afford it. It breaks my heart, but I think I'm looking at a sitch where I become "weekend dad" and W and her parents (whom she'll be living with) have the kids during the week. It's the only thing that seems financially viable. I'm kind of surprised she seems so resistant to the idea...at least she'll get to keep partying on the weekends like she's been doing.
So, it was a not very productive, emotionally charged conversation that we would have been better off not having. I've just been doing so much and picking up all the household slack while W blows off everything that it finally got to me. All that came of it was W confirming that she sees my changes but doesn't believe they'll
stick, they make her angry, and she says she still loves and cares about me, still enjoys spending time with me, but that she's still planning on leaving as soon as I tell her what my plan is.
Felt like a pretty big setback from a DB perspective, but all I can do is learn from it and move on.
Onward and upward as they say.
I think holiday weekends tend to be a tough time for most of us. Its easy to look at your W and think of better times or what could be but it doesn't help. I'm glad you had such a good weekend with the family to begin with though.
Do you think this disappointed feeling comes from expectations? Did you feel like the good part of the weekend would change something?
Do you think this disappointed feeling comes from expectations? Did you feel like the good part of the weekend would change something?
Good questions... I think it was expectations, although not so much about the R in and of itself. W has been partying a lot lately, and I've been picking up the slack at home. I'm no stranger to having a good time, but it's gotten a little out of hand. I guess I felt like after a long fun day with her family, and Spring Break ending/the kids going back to school the next day, she could maybe bring the party to an end early for once and help wind things down at home. Instead she just wanted to meet up with her friend at the neighborhood pub. An hour so was fine with me, and I said so. But when that turned into 5 hours of being M.I.A. it just finally got to me.
I sympathize Stumps. I asked those questions because I found the same challenges over the holiday weekend. We all want to feel like our spouse is feeling the pain and missing the R, but we are all guilty of mind reading and expectations when we try to figure out what they are feeling, thinking, or how they will react. I know its tough, can't say I'm doing any better.
Well I'm wishing the best for you... And for us all.
I can say that my W did remark that the "pity party" was because of the suffering involved in our sitch and the misery she knows will be felt by all parties involved. I guess in a weird way it is good to know that she is not immune to that.
Been thinking a lot about this... About how expectations are expectations, regardless of whether they're about the relationship specifically or not. From a DB perspective, I need to abandon any expectations at all at this stage...especially if I'm dealing with what sometimes seems like an "anytime MLC".
As an epilogue of sorts to last night's events, W and I had lunch plans for today that I assumed she would want to cancel, but she brought up that she still wanted to go and subsequently W apologized sincerely for her behavior and for hurting me (her word not mine). Lunch was enjoyable and from our current interaction one wouldn't suspect any conflict happened the night before.
I think I need to more on top of my own thoughts, behaviors, and responses.
Just doing a little inventory...
I'm about a month in since the bomb dropped, so not very long by DB standards. I've ben doing ok re: GAL... Working out regularly, in touch with old friends and doing stuff with them. 180's have beem even better. I'm really identifying my own flaws and going in the opposite direction.
Not only is W is definitely noticing, but I've also been getting alot of positive feedback from people more removed from the situation. It feels good to feel good... Still have some moments of quiet despair, but overall I'm doing pretty d@mn well.
I've only suffered one setback, the argument we had the other night, and I seem to have recovered from that about as well as could be expected...W apologized and we spent a pleasant next day together. Nothing to indicate she's changed her mind but she's definitely liking the me she's seeing so... Just going to keep it up. If it doesn't change my sitch it at least is making everything else about my life better.
I have been thinking a lot about friendship today... My wife and I were and continue to be such great friends. This, to me, is the foundation a marriage is built upon. W and I continue to get along great. One of the vets on another post had said that getting along so well likes this provides the LBS with opportunities to shine for the WAS...opportunities for the WAS to see what he/she will be missing. Sometimes I wonder though. This isn't a pursuit situation, because my W wants me to do thing with her...and it is a major 180 for me to accept and say yes, because I used to almost always turn her down.
An example, W texted me last night to say her friend from work was coming home with her to hang out for a little bit (Friend knows what's going on between us). When they got to the house I built a fire in the firepit for them and then asked W if she wanted me to leave them alone so they could hang out and have some "girl talk". W said no, that she had invited F over so that we could all spend some time together and she wanted me to stay. So I did, and we had a great time.
Another example, W and kids go to her parents every Monday for dinner. I almost always decline to come. As a 180, the past few weeks I have been expressing interest in coming ("I would love to accompany you and the kids to your parents, but I completely understand and don't mind if you want to have some alone time with your folks.") Each time, W has said she wants me to come, and we all end up having a great time.
It just seems weird... W has expressed several times that I've become the H she always wanted...but when the R comes up (brought up by her, not me) she also makes it clear that she hasn't changed her mind, too little/too late, doesn't believe the changes will stick, etc. She has expressed fear, however, that the changes MIGHT stick and then some other woman will "snatch" me up.
So I wonder...does this mean I'm squarely in the friend zone...and is this a good thing or a bad thing?
I can relate, the friend zone is a terrifying idea. But DB does say that it takes time for WAW to see and believe those changes. I think the scale, that is not going to be accurate in all situations, was referenced as a month for every year that WAW sees that it was a problem or that they experienced a painful situation. I myself feel like I'm dealing with this still but I think its great that you have been lucky enough to hear her say you are the H she always wanted. I think that shows great steps in the right direction.
Kind of a weird night last night. W came home from work in the evening, said hello to the kids and then pulled me aside to the bedroom where she told me she was having a really hard/bad day. She started getting teary-eyed and told me she felt ultra-depressed and overwhelmed, and that she felt like she just needed a couple of hours alone to process everything that's been going on, but that feeling that way made her feel like a bad mom because she knew the kids had been looking forward to seeing her all day. She said it also made her feel guilty because she knew I had been working all day and probably wanted some relief from watching the kids, but that ultimately she felt like she needed some space to be on her own for a little bit to cry and "let it all out" and felt like she couldn't hide how she was currently feeling and didn't want to the kids to see that.
Interestingly, she also said that even though it added to her "bad mom" feelings, she would rather take the time to go off on her own for a little bit while the kids were still up, because that way she wouldn't miss out on "hang out" time with me after the kids were asleep.
So, I validated everything she had to say and made sure I told her that I didn't think she had anything to feel guilty about and that I was perfectly ok with her going for a drive or doing whatever she felt like she needed to. Also made sure to let her know that I wasn't thinking whatever negative thoughts about it that she thought I might be (one of her issues is attributing thoughts to me that I don't have).
W texted me a little while later to let me know she had grabbed some dinner and then went to the park to walk and have some "self therapy", and that me being so kind and understanding had been a big help. She came home a little while later and we spent the rest of the evening watching a movie. I had kind of expected (there are those expectations again) for her to want to have some kind of talk when she got home, but she just thanked me again for letting her have some time to herself and we left it at that.
While she was gone I kept up one of my 180/GALs and hung out with the neighbors in their front yard for a bit. Got a really nice ego-boosting compliment too; one of the neighbors told me that some of the moms who see me picking up the kids from school have started calling me "hot dad". Kind of embarrassing, but made me feel kind of good too... I've really been missing the love and affection from my wife, and it was nice to get a little esteem boost...even though the only person I really want it from (aside from myself!) is my W.
Well, another nice night with W. She came home from work and after dinner we threw the football around in the yard with the kids, watched a little tv with them and then put them to bed. Afterward we built a fire in the firepit and hung out talking (no R talk) and listening to music for a couple of hours. W mentioned that her friend (F) who had come over the night before told W that she had a really great time spending time with us. I told W that I had really enjoyed F coming over as well, and (major 180 for me) that she should feel free to come over any time she wants. After the firepit we came in and watched tv in bed for a little bit and then called it a night.
I am noticing small...twinges...of resentment/negativity within myself over the lack of physical affection. MUST keep a grip on that. Physical touch/affection is my LL and I'm am really feeling the lack of it...especially since it's in such stark contrast to how well W and I are getting along. Plus, it's not like W has become modest around me all of a sudden...it's hard not to get turned on, but I've been doing a good job of keeping that under wraps. But it is creeping in mentally. I need to make sure I don't start pushing for any type of physical intimacy, and I need to be vigilant in making sure any of my "unmet needs" don't start expressing themselves negatively in some other way. No hostility, no resentment... but d@mn my W looks good.
I can say this for sure, if I can keep up MY current behavior...the 180s and GALs that I've been doing for the past month...if I can keep them up indefinitely moving forward into the future, W will truly be abandoning something good. Something special. Even a couple of the neighbors who have seen us together recently have remarked that we seem like two peas in a pod going through something like a second honeymoon period.
I think the best I can do is to keep up my current efforts. If W doesn't change her mind (and I have to assume she hasn't/won't right up until she says differently) and chooses to leave anyway, then at least I know I did everything I could for myself, the kids, her, and our marriage. At least I know I've given her something good to miss. If she leaves, then I go dim/dark and continue my efforts for myself and our kids.
I am going to give myself a compliment here... one that I think most of us on this forum deserve to give to ourselves. When my spouse said she was done and wanted a D and told me the reasons why, instead of pointing the finger at her and her faults/flaws, I instead turned the spotlight on myself and found the truth in what she had to say about my faults/flaws and began to remedy them. That is HUGE. That is not the norm. We all deserve to pat ourselves on the back for that. If my W ends up not being the beneficiary of that effort, I will be no matter what.
Heh man. Read your last few posts. Hang in there. U seem to be a top guy and doing all the right things. She seems to be fighting thoughts of going back but if your changes are real I think you're in with a great chance. I hope you get her back but if not you really have got a great future with the 180 you've implemented!!!
Heh man. Read your last few posts. Hang in there. U seem to be a top guy and doing all the right things. She seems to be fighting thoughts of going back but if your changes are real I think you're in with a great chance. I hope you get her back but if not you really have got a great future with the 180 you've implemented!!!
Thanks! I really appreciate your comment. W and I get along so well, but I'm really fighting to not get my hopes up. I really privately worry about the "friend zone" thing. I know my W envisioned a D in which we stay friends and split time with the kids 50/50, which is why I think she gets distressed when I mentioned (when she asked me) that my plan is probably to move relatively far away if we split (a couple of hours). I figure all I can do in whatever time we are still in the same house together is become a better version of me and, in the process, let her see what she'll be missing.
Incidentally, I've been following your sitch a little bit and I think you handled staying over at your W's/the spider thing quite well. I think the best you can do is find a balance between being available, but not *too* available.
Wishing the best for us all...
Ty. It wasn't too bad but, like u, when we get on so well during these difficult times you realise how much we love them and want to be better people for us and them so that they can have the marriage they deserve.
I get the feeling we're feeling the same things. Trying to have a life if our W's do not come back but finding it tough when we love them sooo much.
Jeez this is hard. But I know we can do it.
Interesting night last. W and I were supposed to go to our neighbors' 30th anniversary party together. This was another 180 for me, as usually W would go to this type of thing alone. But this time W was pleased to find out I had taken it upon myself to get a sitter so that I could meet her there after she got off work.
However, W texted me after work to say she was on her way home and that she wanted to talk to me about something. When she got home she told me she had found herself getting angry thinking about all the changes I had made, and how at the party I would be socializing and "shining" to all of our friends and neighbors and that it started making her mad to think I was becoming the man she always wanted only after her saying she wanted a D. As a result, she said she didn't think she wanted to go to the party anymore because she was afraid seeing me getting on so well with everyone would either make her lash out in some way or make her upset to the point of tears.
I validated everything she had to say, telling her I understood 100% where she was coming from and that it made perfect sense to me. I asked her what she wanted to do, and she asked if It would be ok if we sent the sitter home and she would go to the party by herself for an hour and a half and then come home and spend the rest of the evening with me. I told W that was completely fine with me, as long ad she made it clear to the neighbors that I wasn't there by choice. So she told them our sitter had cancelled, and in a 180 of sorts for her she was true to her word and back at home when she said she would be.
We ended up having a great night together when she got home. Stayed up for around another 5 hours just hanging out being friends, talking, listening to music. Really great time. W remarked several times how much she was enjoying herself, and how validated she had felt by me understanding her feelings earlier in the evening.
I hope what is going on here is that she is making an effort to rekindle things on her end as she sees me doing my 180s/GAL. That's definity what it feels like. I don't want to get my hopes up, but we are connecting in many ways that we haven't in quite some time. And very notably, W mentioned how good it felt to her to be able to express negative thoughts toward me and not only have nothing bad happen as a result, but to actually have a lot of good come from it instead.
You're doing it right Stumps, well at least in my opinion. Keep at it!
You're doing it right Stumps, well at least in my opinion. Keep at it!
Thanks VFL, I really appreciate that. Especially because at the moment I'm feeling like I'm at a low point. While I was out with the kids yesterday W texted and asked if we could grill some burgers and have W's mom and W's friend come over. 180 for me: I said yes enthusiastically and without hesitation. We had a great time, but it kind of had a weird effect on me (kept it to myself, so pat on the back for that).
From a 180/GAL perspective I feel like I'm doing well... But I've been having feelings creep in of "maybe this would be easier if W just moved out". Being "just friends" with W gets agonizing sometimes. And I'm doing so much of the household work right now, nothing would change from that perspective. I can't remember the last time W did some dishes, or the kids' laundry, or fixed dinner, or made a grocery store run...and keeping the kids busy and entertained on the weekends has become my sole responsibility. She even blew off the kids' Easter baskets this year; that was all me. It's feeling more and more like W is in a MLC... and if I'm understanding DBing correctly the best I can do is patiently stand by while she goes off the rails and hope that my quiet patience and acceptance brings her back. Meanwhile we've gone from what used to be a pretty 50/50 split of the household labor to it being more like a 95(me)/5(W) split.
I'm continuing to show W nothing but calmness and positivity, but inside...despite GALing...I'm just really lonely. I'm aching for her affection...for her to say "I love you". We had another good time last night hanging out with W's mom and W's friend by the fire pit, and it was hard not to notice that even W's friend gets more affection from W than I do. I don't let any of it show... but it does hurt. Especially in light of how good our friendship seems to be. W asks me to be with her, to spend time with her, to keep her company while she does x, y, or z, but... there's always this limit to it.
It reminds me of our relationship before we were dating. We were good friends that used to hang out with this couple we knew, and we would always sleep over in their guest room if we'd been drinking too much. She always wanted me to sleep in the same bed with her and snuggle...but it was like strictly platonic...for her. I really liked her, and one day realized if she didn't feel the same way then sleeping in the same bed and having this limited platonic kind of physical contact was actually not good for me. So one night as she prepared to get into bed I instead gathered up my stuff to head home. And she got pissed. She couldn't believe that instead of our "snuggle time" together, I was choosing to go home.
I don't know... I guess I'm feeling like I'm almost in the same boat again. I had gotten advice here that suggested that the tact I'm taking right now is the right one. That all of what I'm doing right now is what W is going to miss if she leaves. But sometimes I wonder...she's not missing anything *right now*. I'm a model husband...but feel that I'm squarely in the friend zone. I know we're not supposed to be trying to teach our WASs a lesson or anything like that... and it's not like I can gather up my stuff and go home like when we were just friends. But if she left, if she went ahead and moved into her parents' like she said she was going to, maybe she would see what she's missing.
The advice I've gotten seems to suggest that she is seeing what she'll be missing, even if she doesn't show it, and it is making it harder for her to leave (maybe it's why she hasn't left yet), but in the meantime, even with all the 180s and GALing, it feels like it's taking super-human strength sometimes to be strong, and stoic, and calm about it all.
I really want someone to give me a hug, and say "I love you". And when I say "someone" I mean "my wife".
Little self-pep talk to remind myself what I'm doing right...
I have been about as close to 100% successful in my 180's as a person can get. W has remarked several times that I'm doing the things she always wanted/being the man I was when we first met.
I have not brought up any R talk at all since the bomb drop. The few times it has come up it's been brought up by W.
I have validated everything my W has had to say about her feelings. She has acknowledged this and thanked me for it.
I have accepted 100% my role in our sitch, and accepted 100% of the responsibility for my behavior and changing it.
At no time have I pointed my finger at my W, her contribution to our sitch, or at her current behavior. If we ever start piecing/reconciling, then that will be the time for a calm constructive conversation regarding these things.
I have displayed near-100% positive mental attitude and kind, generous behavior toward W, her family, our friends and neighbors since bomb drop, even when I'm dying on the inside.
At least two things I need to step-up: 1) GAL. I'm doing just ok here. Been in touch with a few old friends, but we're far-flung across the map and it's hard to make things happen with them. But I have been open to all of the social events in the neighborhood I used to avoid (sort of a 180/GAL mix), I have plans to go to a concert on my own in a couple of weeks, and I've been thinking about taking drum lessons if I can fit them in to work/child care schedule. 2) "Internal" detachment. From the outside, my detachment looks pretty good. I've adopted a pretty good "laissez-faire" attitude regarding W. But on the inside, I still have moments of pretty hardcore despair. I'm aching for physical affection...not even necessarily sex, just touch. Physical comfort. I'm suffering too much mental pain from the lack of affection. I think I'm doing a near-perfect job of hiding it...but I want to do more than hide it. I want to handle it.
Stumps -
It sounds like you are going everything right - even at a stage where it is gut-wrenchingly painful. I remember that stage well, and you have my sympathy, support and encouragement. Hang in there - I am wishing you the best.
Crimson
Thanks a ton. It means a lot and I appreciate it. To some degree I know I'm on the right track because I see the improvements in my own life. Still feels like I'm groping around in the dark a lot of the time though.
Guess I have to remind myself I'm only a month into this thing, no matter how long it seems like it's been.
One of the best things I gathered about DB'ing was to think about the BIGGEST amount of patience you have ever had to employ and then multiply it by a factor of 5. It's a long road filled with non-linear progress....forward....back....up....down. Lather, rinse, repeat. One month in isn't much yet, and you appear to be doing MUCH better then I was at my month 1. I was still blaming her hormones and anything else that I thought would make sense.
Hang tight and stay positive.
Crimson
Ugh... so I just got a "it's too late and nothing is going to change my feelings" talk from W. W spent almost the entire day in bed and when I woke her up this evening to tell her it was time to take the kids to her parents for dinner she asked me to sit and talk with her for a minute.
She said she was feeling extremely depressed, and said that it was because of our sitch and how it was affecting her. She said it's been making her uncomfortable that we get along so well and it's been making her feel like I thought she might have changed her mind. She reiterated that things have been great and my changes have been wonderful, and things have been for the past month the way she always wanted them to be, but that she doesn't believe the changes will stick and that even if they did it's just not enough to overcome the past 10 years of heartache and disappointment. I basically told her that I understood her feelings, but I had to keep doing what was right for me and for the kids and so regardless of what she thought about it I had to just keep on keeping on. I said she may be the beneficiary of them, but the changes are for me.
I engaged with the R talk more than I think I really should have, but... she brought it up, so... The short version of what I had to say was that I understood and respected her feelings and her decisions, but that I was of the opinion that what is best for me and the kids is for us to work things out within the context of the marriage, but since she didn't feel the same way she needed to do what she thought was right, and if that meant moving out she should go as soon as she was ready. So that's pretty much where we left things, with her saying it was too late, and the marriage has been too much work, and she just didn't want to do it anymore.
So she gave me a big hug and then headed off to her parents. Two minutes later she came back through the front door (her parents live two houses away) and said she just needed to give me one more hug, and then she asked me if I wanted to watch a movie when she got back from her parents.
This woman... sometimes I think she might be just a wee bit crazy.
I guess I should say that when I wrote "This woman... sometimes I think she might be just a wee bit crazy." I was being quite facetious...or sarcastic...whatever the appropriate word there is.
Ovation for you Stumps!
Our situations seem eerily similar. wife wants out but still wants to do things together. Only difference is I met my wife and we started dating the next day, then had sex soon after that. Later on she felt like we should've waited but drunk 21 year olds will do things.
I praise you on you staying calm and positive despite being torn apart inside. Stay the course! It will be hard because all you want is to be loved again and it may come in time. And if it does you know it will be genuine and not reactionary to your 180's.
That has to be tough. From what I have read it seems like typical WAW. She's wavering but doesn't like it, she had her mind made up and thought she knew how you would react to it but you've done the complete opposite.
And the too much R talk? I wouldn't worry too much about it. It seems like it may have been warranted. You didn't initiate the conversation, so I think that is big.
Good luck! Keep at it!
Appreciate the encouragement so much!
After all that talk by my wife regarding her mind being made up, she came home from her parents and we watched a movie. She asked me to join her on the couch and then for a massage. So weird.
Then this morning she woke me up with a hug and a kiss on the cheek and asked if we could have a "family sick day" (what we call it when we let the kids skip a day of school so we can all hang out). I said sure and got up and made breakfast for the kids while W went to an IC session...one during which I had been under the impression she was going to discuss moving out and how to tell the kids. Not sure if that's the case now or what. We're all going out to eat and see a movie when she gets back, so... Quite the rollercoaster ride indeed.
I know I'm not supposed to be hanging on every word W says, but I've been thinking a lot about something she said this morning when she woke me up to ask about the kids staying home. I was still in a sleep fog so it didn't really register until later, but after she gave me the peck on the cheek I recall her saying "I have a renewed sense of hope."
What the heck does that mean? She certainly didn't follow up with anything that would give an indication... and I figure from a DB perspective it's best not to ask. The only other interaction we've had to day was when I took a break from working at home to join her and the kids for a bit in the living room. I went to sit down next to D8 and W said something like "Yay, you're coming to join us...but your sitting in the wrong spot" and then motioned for me to sit with her on her couch instead of next to D8.
I guess this is one of the many reasons why I'm not supposed to mind read and need to detach...there's no consistency to what she does or says.
Don't look into it too much. Just keep dbing! It's obviously working!
Well the bad news is she is vacillating....the good new is, well, she's vacillating. And at a bare minimum that is indicative of SOME level of internal struggle. As uncomfortable as that may be, it is not the WORST place to be at all. I think you are handling things well. Don't get too high on the positive signs, don't get too low on the negatives....find your groove and stay in it.....and keep posting. You'll find it is a lot better to say stuff here as opposed to saying it to your W.
Crimson
stumps, have been reading a little bit about your situation and wanted to drop a quick note.
You seem to be doing really well - especially given that you have only recently found yourself in this situation. I think that I was in shock and reacting from a purely emotionally place for way too long.
Congratulations on your handling of the situation and the progress you have made so far...... My guess is that you are already aware of this but many of your W's actions are very typical and it's probably best as you mentioned above to not point these things out or follow up. Right now, let her dictate the pace a bit I think would be the appropriate course of action.
Keep working on becoming the best you that you can be and stay strong!
Man, really appreciate all the comments. Particularly because I'm having a bit of a low moment. When we talked last night, W and I discussed my options for after she moves in with her parents, and it's looking like the most realistic one (due to finances/cost of living) is for me to move a couple of hours away.
W certainly hadn't been prepared for that ("I didn't think you'd go so far away" is what I think she said), and honestly, I never envisioned being so far away from my kids... I just don't know how else to work it. I live in literally one of the most expensive regions in the country, and was only able to do so because I had a team mate. If my partner goes, I haven't been able to figure out a way to stay close by...not yet anyway.
So anyway, thinking about the kids has gotten me in kind of a low place...and has got me thinking about a lot of stuff that I've previously been able to stop myself from dwelling on.
Thinking about how one of my favorite memories of our marriage/friendship was created in the past week, post-bomb drop...
And thinking about how W's parents went through a pretty bad time when she was a kid (her mom cheated on her dad for a long time) but they pulled through and have been married for 30+ years. I catch myself wanting to ask W if she thinks she and her siblings would be better off/happier if her parents had divorced...
Mainly though, I think about missing my best friend, because that's what W undoubtably still is. And W says she feels the same way, but that she's just never going to be happy in this marriage. She's convinced of it. I don't know if she discussed moving out/telling the kids in her IC session today or not, but I hope we have enough time left in this house together for her resolve to waiver... Obviously W is in a different head space (obviously!) than I am because I can't imagine voluntarily putting an end to the way things have been for the past month. She agrees that we've been having such a great time together...that things have been the way they should have been all along. Can't imagine trying to cut losses and preemptively put an end to things, but W says that's where she is right now.
So... have to keep doing what I'm doing...but gotta get better at the detachment too.
Just journaling...
Very low, internally, right now. One of my greatest successes is keeping W from seeing the internal struggle...a struggle that for the most part I've been handling well. But for some reason the last couple of days have been rough. Like I said, I'm hiding it, but it's there.
Despite doing well with 180s/GAL, I'm really missing my W...even though we're in the house together and getting along well. But I'm missing the part of our R that isn't there right now...the part that takes it from a friendship to a marriage. I've mentioned before, it's not the lack of sex per se, it's the lack of physical contact. She still hugs me, she still asks for massages, but there is a lack of something that is *almost* a *need* for me, not just something I want or like. My W is a woman who was up against me almost all the time...at home, out in public, on the couch, or in bed she was almost always on me like glue. Touching me, petting me, holding hands.
I feel like I'm going through withdrawal from that sometimes. I've even caught myself thinking a couple of times that if she's truly done with me then she should just move out so I can get through the withdrawal and then move on. Am I an attention junkie? An affection junkie? I don't know... but I've even caught myself thinking about taking my ring off so I can catch other women's eyes...and I'm a man who has never even thought about being with another woman during my M (well, aside from the normal healthy ability to recognize that there are other attractive people out there). But you know, I've never thought about cheating or had a desire to be with someone else...but now...I'm missing something in my life that was snatched away unceremoniously and it's absence is really getting to me.
Keep thinking... maybe I should tell W to move out. She brought it up herself the other night, saying she thought she should. When I told her to go whenever she was ready she said not until she knew what my plan is...not until I knew exactly where I would be living because her moving out and telling the kids was going to be contingent on that.
But it doesn't have to work like that. Her parents live 2 houses away and that's where she's planning on moving. Her dad has told me W can move in any time she's ready. He's even said he doesn't understand why she hasn't yet.
So I'm starting to envision something. She moves in with her parents, and the kids and I stay in the house. There doesn't need to be any mention of what *I* am going to do. We frame it as "W needing a break from dad", but she's still close enough to see the kids whenever she/they want.
I've been assuming that us staying under the same roof as long as possible is a good thing. That it provides the opportunity for her to see on a daily basis my 180s/GAL. But I'm starting to wonder. Her father made it clear to me that when W moves in to his house, W's life will be work and home. That he wasn't going to put up with her going out all the time and coming in at all hours (although to her credit W has curtailed a lot of that, but she still "parties" way more than any reasonable person would claim is health or wise for a married mother of two). The best I can figure is W knows this, and that's why she hasn't moved out of our home yet. Is she cake-eating? Right now she's free to come and go pretty much as she sees fit. Perhaps part of her surprise at my suggestion I'll move 2 hours away was not realizing that I won't be around to subsidize her free time anymore. Perhaps her not moving out, despite stating a couple of times that she needs to, is less about "what to tell the kids" then it is about her realizing that her lifestyle will change drastically once she moves out.
So maybe I should force the issue. Maybe I should say it's time for her to go. She hasn't explained what her "I have a renewed sense of hope" comment yesterday morning meant, but there certainly hasn't been any outward change in our sitch. So maybe I should just say "look W, if you're truly done, and you truly believe that even if things stay the way they have been for the past month you will still be unhappy in this marriage because you can't get over the past, then you should just go. Move in with your parents ASAP. There is no point in waiting."
I don't necessarily want to teach her a lesson...but I certainly wouldn't mind if life does. And I do think her moving out, and being forced to live a different lifestyle, will be an eye-opening experience for her.
I don't know. I don't know if this is rational thinking on my part, or the product of my desperation.
Journaling...
Decided to try to gauge where W is and texted her a couple of days ago to ask if she wanted to grab a bite to eat somewhere for dinner. She said sure so went out after she got off work. Ended up having a very nice time and ran into a couple of very old friends of mine so we lingered for a while and hung out with them.
When we went to bed that night, W got out a small journal and said she wanted to share with me some things she had written... clearly sharing something that she doesn't let anybody else know about. Clearly sharing part of herself. I don't know what the significance is...I won't speculate...but it was definitely meaningful to her, as it was to me.
Last night I went over to the neighbors' (both 180 and GAL for me) and hung out with them after helping them get a nice fire going in their fire pit. W was just getting home from work when I got home, and when I told her where I'd been it clearly had an effect on her. She said she was glad I had a good time with the neighbors and that she was really happy seeing everyone enjoying my company and me being "the old stumps" but that it also made her really angry. Angry because I was being the person she always wanted me to be and doing all the things she always wanted me to do, but it was all happening only now when it was "too late". "Too late" because now she had negative feelings about the marriage that would never go away. She said she found it all confusing, being both angry at and happy for me, and that she loved me and always would, and didn't want to think about it anymore for the time being and just wanted to enjoy the rest of the evening with me. So we lounged on the couch for a while and held hands (sounds kind of cheesy but we used to hold hands all the time, but this was the first time she's held my hand since the bomb drop), and when we went to bed that night W wrapped her arm around me and slept that way for most of the night.
So...my take-away...
W still says she's done, so that's what I have to assume. She's even checked several times here and there to make sure I'm not thinking anything has changed in her mind, and I always tell her that my assumption is always that her feelings are just as they were on the day she told me she wanted out, and that I'm just being the best person I can be because doing so is its own reward.
However... I feel pretty safe saying W is clearly waging a battle in her heart and/or head. That's not to say she's changing or is going to change her mind. But it seems like at a time when she should be pulling and preparing to move out, she's at least part of the time engaging more and coming closer.
Journaling...
W continues to display...contradictory...behavior. She came home from work last night and got into bed with me and put her head on my chest and fell asleep.
She also revealed to me that she is realizing she is severely codependent, and it has kept her from feeling like she can voice her opinions, thoughts, and feelings to me when she thinks they might hurt or anger me. She said she realizes it's not because of any negative reaction on my part, it's something inside her that prevents her from doing it, and that she realizes that's what she brought to the marital breakdown...she realizes that her stifling her feelings led to hostility and resentment and a feeling within her that the only way to escape it would be to escape the marriage. So, that's something she is making a conscious effort to address.
However, I had been thinking that maybe the reason she hasn't moved out yet is because she was having private doubts about her decision to leave. This perception of mine has been fueled by her behavior and the extent to which we're still getting along so well and doing things together...in fact, she makes a point of telling me how much she wants me around. I'm realizing though that this is maybe (ha, maybe) a case of things not being what they seem. Father-in-law told me that W was over at his house a couple of days ago, and that while she had mentioned a lot of my changes, the bulk of what she was there to talk about was "bargaining" with him about the house rules he said he was going to put in place when/if W moves in. Basically he said that at least during the week W needed to plan on having her life be "work, home, kids" and that W should know that the going out whenever and wherever that she does now wasn't going to fly in his house. FIL said W got real "huffy" about it with him.
So I'm realizing that W may not be staying in our marital home because she's waffling, but rather because in our house she has almost complete freedom to do what she wants when she wants, and that will for the most part come to an end if she moves in with her parents (plus I won't be around anymore Monday through Friday, so the bulk of the parenting that I've been doing will now fall on her). Kind of opened my eyes, and got me thinking about the trip to Atlantic City she'll be taking in a couple of weeks with her friends, and the "girls nights" out she has all the time... all of which she gets to do because I'm still around.
Kind of brought up the feeling again that maybe I should tell her she's got to move now. Try it on for size and see how she likes it.
She also revealed to me that she is realizing she is severely codependent, and it has kept her from feeling like she can voice her opinions, thoughts, and feelings to me when she thinks they might hurt or anger me. She said she realizes it's not because of any negative reaction on my part, it's something inside her that prevents her from doing it, and that she realizes that's what she brought to the marital breakdown...she realizes that her stifling her feelings led to hostility and resentment and a feeling within her that the only way to escape it would be to escape the marriage. So, that's something she is making a conscious effort to address.
That ^^^^^^, my friend, is a major, major confession on her part. Don't fast-forward past that one too much. That is your W basically owning some of her stuff....a lot of folks here (myself included) haven't gotten that much yet. And, frankly, what she described is EXACTLY what happened to us in part.
I don't know - maybe she is bouncing back and forth, but I think the fact that she can own that is a strong positive.
Crimson
That ^^^^^^, my friend, is a major, major confession on her part. Don't fast-forward past that one too much.
Crimson
Really appreciate your perspective here; you're right, I've glossed over that a bit and focused more on the revelation from my FIL that she's been talking to him about his "house rules". But the fact that W is realizing this about herself is positive movement regardless of whether or not it affects our sitch. After all, I love her enough to want her to be happy, and I don't think a person can ever be happy until they learn how to own and communicate their thoughts, feelings, and opinions.
I actually ended up talking to my IC about the codependency issue. My IC thinks that codependency is best dealt with within the marriage, but she said that plenty of counselors/therapists think otherwise and W may very well be receiving counsel from her therapist that she needs to separate/divorce in order to work on it.
As far as W and I go, we talked openly about her codependency and she said she would like to begin addressing it by "practicing" on/with me... I essentially said to her that I pledged to listen to what she had to say at any given time without judgment; that even if she had something unpleasant to say, I promised to
listen to her, to really
hear her without turning around and pointing a finger at her or going on the offense. And that if she ever said something that I thought was truly unfair or unjustifiable hurtful, we would discuss it constructively rather than simply arguing about it.
On another positive note (I think), last Wednesday W and I had sort of a date night and ended up having a good time. W accepted another invitation of mine to go out last night and at the end of the evening she told me it was really fun. I said I felt the same way and thanked her for accepting my invitation, and not only did she thank me for inviting her but she also suggested that we go ahead and plan for another night out together next Wednesday. So... seems like a good sign. However, the knowledge that she's been talking to FIL about what it will be like when/if she move in there...well...maybe that's a good thing in a way. Definitely keeps my from fooling myself into thinking all is well...and I guess I shouldn't be expecting any kind of full reversal from her at this stage anyway just because we seem to be establishing this date night thing.
Had a good conversation with W as we were hanging out at the fire pit together last night. She started talking about her codependency, and said that it was something that she was committed to working on, and that as time went on she hoped I would see she was not only making progress but that the progress was real and permanent. Even more notable, W said her inspiration was seeing all of the changes that I've been making and her coming to believe that those changes of mine were real and permanent.
I'm not going to assume otherwise until she comes out and says that she's changing her mind about the D and explicitly states that she wants to work on the M, but this feels like real positive movement no matter what.
As an aside, just as we were about to call it a night and head inside, W's friend/next-door-neighbor came home from work and saw us out on the patio so she came over and sat and talked with us a bit. Afterward as she was heading back over to her house she remarked how much she loved hanging out with the two of us and that she hoped we never moved away so that she wouldn't have to give that up. That was really nice to hear, especially since she is primarily W's friend and I know she's aware of at least some of what's going between W and I if not the whole story.
Sounds great stumps!
Keep up the good work.
Stay strong.