Hi
I found out at xmas that my wife was having an affair with a work colleague.Although she had known him for 2 years it had only been going on for 2 weeks when I found out.
She refused to stop as he was leaving the country the following week. As she put it, you were never meant to find out it was supposed to be a bit of fun for a couple of weeks before he left.
I ebdured it, stupidly I know, as I didn't want to lose her and he is now gone although up until a month ago they were still in touch.
We tried for weeks to work through things but eventually she left and got an apartment stating, I love you but I'm not in love with you.
It has left me with two little boys and we are devastated.
I read some of the tips such as not pursuing or begging and trying to do 180s etc but I have also made many mistakes such as trying to get her to discuss things and work at things.
She says she needs to be on her own and right now it looks hopeless as she says she doesn't see herself returning.
I have no clue what to do next as I lover her and miss her desperately.
Any advice would be welcome
Andy
I am sorry you are in this situation. Don't beat yourself up about making mistakes...everyone does. Think about what you need to do going forward. If you aren't working with a DB coach, please do, as they are fantastic in helping you get on a track that is most likely to turn things around. You will not feel hopeless and will feel stronger and more in control after your first session with a DB coach. Take a good care.
Andy, I'm very sorry to hear about what has happened to you. The DB/DR books really do have a lot of good ideas in them that can help you deal with this situation.
Things may seem hopeless right now but in time things can change. If you work on yourself, make yourself the spouse that someone would be crazy to leave, your wife may reconsider what she's doing. If not, then you will be a much better version of yourself.
Hey Andy, welcome to the board. If you haven't already get a copy of DivorceRemedy and read it. I'm sorry to hear about your situation. Read other peoples threads and you can pickup a lot from what they have been through. You are facing a long emotional road. Try not to let it keep you down.
Tell us about your marriage before now. How long you been married? How old are kids? What led your R here?
Who has your kids?
Have you spoken with an atty yet? You do NOT have to DO anything, but just getting some general advice would be wise, Andy. The better you know what your rights, responsibilities and potential threats are, the more confident you will feel.
You should definitely document when she moved out, and keep a dated journal as to what's going on.
Looking forward to hearing more of your backstory . . .
Starsky
My wife and I have been together for 13 years, married for almost 8.
Our two little boys are 9 and 5, they now live with me full-time as she sees them a couple of nights per week but only keeps them alternate Saturdays.
She has changed so dramatically as a person, she was such a devoted wife and mother and this affair has completely messed with her head.
Th fact that she is able to leave her boys in this way also really shocks me. We made the decision about this due to my eldest son being mildly autistic, he was really struggling for the first few weeks going from our home to her apartment so we thought it best that the boys sleep here almsot all of the time.
I should point out that there is 19 year age gap between myself and my wife although we had never had an issue with that as I am young for my age and it only came up as she has been trying to find explanations for why she had the affair.
What really bothers me is that prior to his happening I believed we were happy.No we weren't perfect but I felt loved and we had a lovely life and everything seemed good.
All of a sudden she has changed and I barely recognise her, she refuses to discuss or try to work at our problems and just says she needs time and space. When I asked her the other day did she feel any different she said if anything she was further away, that really hurt as I have been trying so hard to give her the space, although I have struggled to avoid relationship conversations when we are together.
She is behaving like a teenager in ways wanting to go out and almost distancing herself from her role as a wife and mother.
I have no clue how to handle this...
anyone have advice they can give me, I really am struggling with all of this
Okay I really need some advice on this
My wife has agreed to come round tomorrow evening (as friends she has been very clear on this) to spend some time with myself and the boys.
She was meant to have them but as I had no plans I suggested she come round as we have been unable to spend any time in eachothers company without it turning into a debate and then things get difficult. So I have said we should try and spend some time together without discussing us.
We are planning to spend time with the boys, have dinner together and then we are going to spend some time together with a glass of wine etc, she is adamant though that it is purely platonic as she states that she doesn't want to lose me as her best friend.
Problem is I don't know how to handle this. I don't want to get into a discussion about us as I do love spending time with her. But I suspect that although the OM is off the scene she has struck up a friendship with someone else now. Not 100% sure but its really bothering me and I feel tempted to ask her about him.
I know there is nothing to be gained by this but it hurts like hell that she has basically ended one affair and might be starting another one before the dust has settled with us.
Just be polite and get through the evening without Amy R talk.
Don"t fall into the "friends" trap. She use it to her advantage and your disadvantage.
I hate this iPad and auto wording!
I was trying to say don't get into a R talk. Try to have a nice evening. Have no expectations b/c she is not keen about spending time with you. You pressured her into coming over. Shouldn't do it.
You can be friendly but don"t settle to be her best friend. She can be friends with anyone, but M is meant to be a special R set apart from other "friendships".
Thanks Sandi
I didn't pressure her to do this and in fact I fully expected her to decline when I asked her.
She agreed but made it clear that it was as friends.
I should add that we have to try and do this as we have a family holiday to visit my sister abroad coming up in a few months that has been planned and paid for from way before this started.
She really wants to go and our eldest ( mildly autistic) has stated he wants his mummy there.
We couldn't go together if we are still at the place we are now.
I was hoping she would have come out of her fog by then ( she is acting like a complete stranger) but she shows few signs of that right now so we have to see if its possible for us to be in eachothers company to gauge whether or not this trip can work.
I am prepared to go alone with the boys if needs be but it breaks my heart as it was supposed to be our dream holiday, we didn't go on holiday last year to save for it and its horrible to contemplate going without her.
I thought that if we tried to get on then we might have a chance, but I know if she starts seeing someone between now and then it would destroy me and bring us back to square one.
I just need to know how to proceed from here on in.
I have ordered The Divorce Remedy so will start reading it when it arrives.
But any other insights would be welcome.
I suppose i will be the downer here and tell you that you are setting yourself Up for a big disappointment over this holiday trip. It will not be your dream vacation if you go anywhere with a WAW.
Realistically, she probably will not be out of fog in a few months. And when she does come through it, she may not wish to reconcile. Getting through the fog doesn't fix the M. Her fantasies will colaspe (and usually followed by depression) but eventually will be able to start thinking more realistically, so that part really does help. But is just a step in the direction to heal the M. There usually is a need for a good pro-marriage counselor to guide the couple in reconciliation. But don't try MC until she is ready to work on the M. Otherwise, it often does more harm than good.
What I have seen over & over again here on the boards are LBH'S too eager in getting their WAW back again. He thinks everything will fall back in place and resume as normal. He is so disparate and in such a hurry that he takes her back waaaaaay too soon. I have seen where they may spend one night and be out the door again, saying it was a mistake.
This will take so much longer than you ever thought. B/c it isn't a simple matter......as most LBH'S seem to think. It is very complicated for her and she will have a lot of issues to work through by herself (and maybe with a therapist) before she is ready to work with you on the M.
DBing is a work that will seem completely opposite of what you "think" you should be doing at times. You can't operate from emotions. You need a plan. You need to set some personal goals to work on you as a man. Not to impress her. Not as a tactic to get her back. Most of what we will tell you will be for you.....b/c you are the one here. So working on yourself.....for you......will elevate your self esteem, therefore projecting a better person.
You need to get legal advice to see where you stand, your rights as a father, and financial security. Protect you and your kids by securing your property and finances. You may not think it is necessary, but this is not the girl you married. She is different right now, and it could last a few years.
Below are some tips about what to do and don't do. You may need to adjust it to fit your individual stitch.
1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!
2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!
4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.
7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.
8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)
9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.
10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)
11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)
12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.
15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don’ t act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren’t speaking, but don’t be overly talkative.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patient on your behalf.
21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.
22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.
23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.
29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.
35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.
36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.
37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
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So do you think I should just plan to go alone with the boys then?
It is so hard to imagine going without her but I suppose it would be really difficult going with her as she is now.
I am trying to work on myself. I had already joined a gym last October and have lost over 40lbs since then as I have really thrown myself into getting fit and eating healthily.
I have almost full-time responsibility for the boys as this seems to have affected her desire to be a mother also and she will only have them over-night on alternate Saturdays.
She really isn't the girl I married in fact I barely recognise her from the person she was last November just before this started.
She is acting like a teenager and seems oblivious to my pain and to how hard it is for me assuming fulltime childcare responsiblities as well as working fulltime at my demanding job.
It is just baffling and I wish I could understand where my beautiful loving wife has gone.
I know all I can control is myself so I will try to do that but I am emotionally drained and very tired all of the time.
I just worry about making bad decisions and choices as I want to follow the best path in all of this even though I realise she may well be gone for good.
I agree that you should have zero expectations about this trip. For you, it will be no better having her there as she (and your M) is now, than it would be to go without her. You have some time so see how it feels when it gets closer. I would say, however, that I think it would be great for your boys, if you and W can manage to get along well enough.
I went on a previously planned trip with my H and kids and another family six days after BD. It was painful. It would also have been painful to go without H. But my kids got a family vacation - the last one they will ever have - with both parents. I don't think you can underestimate the importance of that.
Just throwing in my two cents.
I would not discuss and make plans with her. Take it slowly. She said she wanted be to out on her own, so that is what she should experience. Why should she be given the vacation of a lifetime if she has left you and living separately? Unless she has contributed financially upfront for the trip, in which you could offer her money back. Play it by ear for a while.
But as Melissa said, if by then you feel the two of you could get along well enough, then choose whatever you think best. I believe she will "expect" to go.....b/c WAW's cake eat! They want to participate in family events whenever it suits them, but if the LBH gives her too much attention, then she accuses him of pressuring.
Start now, in everything concerning her, having no expectations. Make it a practice, or you will constantly be let down.
Ok so we have had our night together.
As suspected we were unable to avoid the talk about us and our trip etc.
I told her that we couldn't go together the way things are and she agreed so it looks like I will be going with the boys on our own.
She has asked however that I not tell either the boys or my sister until closer to the time.
She also reconfirmed her position that our marriage is over and that she is 99% sure there is no way back, what that 1% means I have no idea but she has started to drag some issues fron the past up as some sort of excuse for what she has done, almost to tyr and excuse it and validate her affair and blame me for the marriage breakdown. This really annoys me as I have never claimed to be perfect but the past few years have been good and she at least should recognise that.
she has started to drag some issues fron the past up as some sort of excuse for what she has done, almost to tyr and excuse it and validate her affair and blame me for the marriage breakdown.
Exactly. Very common for the WAW in an A.
Ok so we spent most of today together as it was mothers day.
I had bought her flowers and chocolates( for the boys to give her) and we went out for dinner.
Although the day went well in terms of no relationship talk it did get difficult just before she left.
I am going away on a business trip from tomorrow for 4 days and she will have the boys. Bear in mind that this is the first time for weeks that she will have them overnight, especially for this length of time.
I have suggested to her that she stays here rather than take the boys to hers.
Their school is 5 minutes walk from here and they are settled at home now ( especially my eldest S9)
I didn't think she would agree but she has, she went on today saying that the neighbours ( one nosey one in particular) would be thinking she was back as she will be here.
So based on her agreement to stay here and the fact that I will be away I felt we should just agree some basic rules regarding how the children are handled.
I have been working hard for weeks to establish boundaries with the boys and some disciplines etc regarding acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. I truly believe and my W agrees that we have been to soft and laid back as parents, me much more so than her.
So I have managed to establish some rules that the boys are getting used to and are responding to. Its a slow process but it is beginning to work.
I wanted to ensure that this continues while I am gone and we had a conversation about the structure etc today.
But for some reason after it things went a little pear shaped. I can't even recall what she said but it really annoyed me considering the effort I had put in to make her Mothers Day special and I told her so. I told her it was unacceptable for her to act disrespectful towards me considering all I had done and that I wouldn't be doing anything more.
A mistake I'm sure but things got a bit uncomfortable for a while before it calmed down.
She did thank me as she was leaving saying ' I was going to thankyou when I was going anyway'
I am still confused as to what she means by 99% sure about our marriage being over and it is bugging me, what does that mean??
She is holding on to one percent for her "if all else fails" plan. Yes, the WAW who is in an A will use her H as her back-up plan if the A doesn't work out......or if she can't make it on her own. It also a way she keeps her hook in you. Telling you she was 99% certain.......gave you that tiny 1% hope. It was her way of leaving the back door unlocked if she decided to come back.
And, it certainly worked! She planted a 1% seed, and you are going to grow it into more than what it is. B/c that's all you can think about.......and you keep wondering why didn't she say 100%......and does it mean she is having second thoughts. No, it means she is looking out for herself....regardless of what it does to you.
If men would see how women work them, and start calling the shots instead of waiting around to see if she ends her A and goes back to him...........she would stop jerking the H around.
I said to her last night that I was moving on with my life and focusing on myself and the boys from now on. But I suppose I did also say that if at some point in the future she wanted to talk to me she could.She just said she was glad that I was doing that as its what she wants me to do.
I know its weak and exactly the opposite of what I should be doing but I am still struggling to accept that this may be it.
I am still married to her in my head and it has all happened so quickly, I suppose i'm punch drunk.
Sandi can you give me some advice on detaching as I am finding that really hard.
Barely an hour goes by where I am not thinking about her and our R.
What form does detachment take in these circumstances and how do I display it to her.
I know I have been too much of a pleaser and she continues to take advantage. My sister has told me to 'grow a set' and 'Let her fly'
I want her to respect me again because I believe that if she does she might change.
Just some tips on how to detach would be invaluable as I am really clueless how to do that.
Hello Andy lets see if I can help you with that
First watch this video
www.ted.com/talks/kathryn_schulz_on_being_wrongNow with detachment:
There is a main reason why we cant detach... That reason its acceptance, and acceptance once you reach it its simple...but untill then its seems very complicated.
Basically people has choices and so your spouse, when we choose we feel "good" about our choice and face that choice with all the consequences, we dont think about hurting people because we cant see that yet, we are choosing because at that point its making us feel better, your W choose another man not because she hated you, but because at that point it made her feel better being with him that being with you....
Her sel steem got empowered by being with him, so basically she got "high" on what that other man was offering her, at this point you cant win because your self steem its really low so you and this is the key " you doubt every decission you take" now you have to choose but you doubt, she is not doubting (at the moment) her self steem its higher than yours (this could be temporary or forever, we dont know that, neither she)
So at this point you are "forcing yourself" to choose, to find what its "right" or good in this situation but you cant find what is that...you doubt if you are choosing properly, you dont want to fail and then loose her...
Here in this moment its when Sandi37 rules arrive to the picture and its so extremely important to follow them, because I will describe what its gonna happen:
1st you are confuse and dont know what to do, when you are in this situation just wait as long as its necessary until you are ready to choose.( you will ending choosing to take care of yourself, sooner or later but you will choose that)
2nd read and losten to what she said you did "wrong" not because I believe you did it wrong but because normally in all that big exagerattion of the leaving W there is some true....
3rd Read DBing and other books to find ways to reinforce yourself steem, its important that you believe in yourself, thats the only chance she will come back.
Now just putt it like this, your W for whatever reasons choosed to have an A and ask you for D, all this time that she is not with you, you can use it in two ways, keep saying poorly me, what an ass I was, I treated her so bad or work on yourself, when you did the awfull things she said you did, you did them because you choosed to do them, they made you feel secure at that point and you never though you were hurting nobody, now you realize the did hurt somebody....look for the balance on that.... For example, your W hated that you didnt clean the house.... Did you consider necessary to do that at that time? No, you prefered to watch a movie.... She is stating that you had to follow her standards and she was upset and hurt about it...that was her problem right? Yes it was....now, you can start cleaning the house but is it really what you want to do for yourself? Maybe not, maybe you just want to do it for her to be happy...but where is what you choose?? Thats when our partners start doubting about ourselves, because they dont see us choosing for us...they see us doubting or doing things sonthey are happy and this my friend its a form of invalidating their feelings...
Best thing for you now its to analize as much as you can your past behaviours, see what is that you dont like about you!!
In my case: I dont like to be jealous because I was suffering, not because my W didnt like it but because it was an unpleasant feeling, solution? Find help to overcome that.
Thats the way you go, if you dont work on this things, it will happen something, as human beings we sometimes doubt about our choices so we try to go back and see if we choosed wrong... Your W might end the affair and call you back, and if you still having that level of self steem and showing to the world that you dont know how to choose the best for you...she will hang up the phone and find a new lover.... Or be single, thats why its important this time for yourself, how you use it, will definetly define the outcome of this...
Write in your brain, in this time and untill I am sure about what I really want, my W has no space in my life, and when you feel doubting go back to that..
It is vitally important a woman respect her H. She won't have in-love feelings for you as long as she has OM in her head, but you can start doing what you need to do to become the man "you" respect, first. Make sure she displays respectful behavior toward you in your home and in front of your children. You may not be able to control what she does in her private life, but when it's in your presence and in front of the kids.......you can hold her feet to the fire on the respect issue.
This means you have to call her out when she says things that puts you down or sarcastically, etc. If it is in front of the kids, you get her alone and get her undivided attention that you will not tolerate it. (I'm not suggesting anything physical, of course. But be very firm with her.)
She doesn't have to like you, but she does have to show you respect in your own home. And, she will need to respect you as a man before she will desire you the way you want her to.
Another LBH might help you more with suggestions with detaching. I was the WAW in my stitch. But I can tell you what I have heard the others say. Getting out of the house to "get a life" (whatever you enjoy) helps more than anything. Being around other adults, meeting new friends, finding new things to do to...helps you stay interested in life and moving forward. Staying physically fit by eating, exercising, and sleeping well. If you need some AD's to temporarily help, see your doctor, b/c depression is almost expected. If you need to see a therapist, pastor, men's group, or a trusted friend........have someone you can talk to. Don't confuse this with the rule about not discussing your stitch with others. Having a professional or one close friend is for your mental health. find something that encourages you. Read inspirational books, go to church, volunteer to help the elderly or disadvantaged.
All of these things work together to help you feel better about yourself and life in general. It helps you to focus on other things, instead of thinking of W all the time. People say in the beginning you really have to push yourself, but in a short time, you see it does make a difference. You won't stop thinking about her, but it helps to deal better.
Detachment is all about attitude. It is taking your focus away from her and putting it on other things. You stop trying to live to please her, and learn to make life about you and the kids. May seem a little selfish at first, but remember, this is what is needed if you are going to detach from the overwhelming and all consuming pain you are having now. It is needed for you to have balance in your life.
Doing things with the kids is fine, but take time away for yourself. Find some physical activity that will help you work out the frustration, anger, disappointment, and other emotions. I know one guy who had a boxing bag hanging in his garage. He said it did wonders taking his frustrations out punching that bag.
Detaching will not seem normal after being in an intimate R. You nature will want to think of things you should do.....if the M was healthy. But it is not healthy and you do need to use the LRT if you stand a chance in busting a D.
I also suggest you use a calendar. I mean really "use" it. Look ahead to see what holidays or special events are coming. Check out the local paper to see what the community is doing over weekends, etc. Fill in the dates on the calendar. If you don't have somewhere to go,then have friends over and create your own events. Don't be caught facing a long weekend or holidays alone and feeling lonely. Work the calendar!
Set goals of things you would like to do. (Also for self improvement goals.) it is healthy to have things we are planning, looking ahead, and working on. Have fun things planned as well as projects.
These things are all about staying busy & healthy....and keeping your life balanced. Very important while you are detaching (or learning how).
I can tell you what she needs,to see. She needs to see you moving forward and being happy without her! She needs to see that you've left her alone to do whatever she wants, but you really aren't that upset b/c your life is too full to fret too much. She needs to see that you are no longer putting any emotional pressure on her. She needs to see you treating her as if she was just another person. She needs to see she can't push your buttons. She needs to see you can set her free. And if she sees these things, then she will become concerned that maybe she has lost your interest in her..........which would be a good thing for her to worry about.
Before I forget, let me point out that detaching is NOT being mad or acting cold to her. It is not being a jerk. You still show politeness when she comes over. You still listen if she wants to talk. But you don't go overboard with it. If you have to choose which way to go, I'd say it's better to show aloofness rather than show her how vulnerable you really feel (while the M is in this unhealthy state). That may seem cold hearted to some, but you have to be careful about showing a WW too much concern. So really, it is being very much the opposite to what you probably thought you should be doing to save the M. And honestly, you may not save the M, but it will help you save yourself.
When Starsky gets back, he can give you a lot of support about detaching.
Thanks Ye21 and Sandi for that advice.
I am leaving on my business trip today and my biggest concern is that it will be my first time away from the situation since it all kicked off.
I am concerned about the boys considering how detached she has been regarding them (she could hardly wait to leave yesterday which really annoyed me considering it was mothers day)
But it will be a good test for me regarding having some time away and I can gauge how I am really feeling. Because I am so busy at home with the boys and with work etc I haven't had much time to myself.
I will be resaonably busy while I am away but I will have a fair bit of down time as well and will be spending time with work colleagues and we have a night out organised so that will be good.
I know what you are saying Sandi about the vunerability, I do tend to display that even when I am trying not to. It almost seems like I want her to see it thinking that it might make her feel bad and want to come back but of course I know it has the opposite effect.
She is so strange around me at the moment also, almost like she is a million miles away. She makes minimal eye contact and is quite curt and brash in the way she speaks to me. I have ( or did have) a good sense of humour and we had a number of little jokes and funny things we used to say to eachother in certain situations. One of them came up yesterday and I made a comment along the normal lines. She just raised her eyes to the sky and grunted with disdain almost as if she resented me for reminding her that we used to do that sort of thing.
The other test for me regarding my trip is that I have never really enjoyed being away, I really missed my family and we had a routine of calling and certain messages we used to send when I was away to make the trips more tolerable. I always loved getting home after them and she knows how much I hate them. It is going to be so strange being away and not having that.
But I do know that I have to start this DBing properly to stand any chance.
I think she is displaying all the signs of a MLC as I have read a lot of the threads regarding this and she matches lots of the symptoms described.
The LRT is probably not where we are at just yet but I will go there if necessary.
Well Andy, where do you think your stitch has to reach before it's time to use the LRT?
I had assumed the LRT was when all else had failed.
To be honest I haven't done much right up until now so I need to start applying the 37 principles you sent me.
The DR book has arrived and I have started to read it.
I am determined to follow the guidelines strictly from now on as I know its my only chance.
Okay, good. Unless you are a fast reader, I would suggest you go directly to the chapter on Last Resort Technique and read it now. Then you can go back and read from the beginning.
Your M is in very serious trouble. I don't know at what point you think it would be time to apply "when all else fails" or what you had in mind to try (if anything other than what has been discussed), but don't wait too long thinking about it. Get down to really applying the things on the list.
You may or may not see results right away, but stick to it.
Ok so can you advise me on this?
We are due to go to marriage guidance together next week
I was going alone but she eventually agreed to go to see them but on her own at first
he seemed to vindicate her decision to leave and "find herself" after their first meeting as she said she felt more secure in her decision since the meeting.
Maybe he was trying to gain her trust but it annoys me as he has been counselling me for weeks and knows I want to save the marriage.
So how do I handle our session together considering I am in LRT mode at the moment?
"I was going alone but she eventually agreed to go to see them but on her own at first he seemed to vindicate her decision to leave and "find herself" after their first meeting as she said she felt more secure in her decision since the meeting."
First of all you don't know if that is what he actually told her. WAS's have a way of embellishing things so that it turns into what they want in the first place. It's their controlling nature. Second, he can only go off what she tells him which you don't know. Third, he was probably VALIDATING what she was saying. Not "vindicating". You'll learn about that the more you read DB/DR.
"Maybe he was trying to gain her trust but it annoys me as he has been counselling me for weeks and knows I want to save the marriage."
Again, you don't know what was REALLY said.
"So how do I handle our session together considering I am in LRT mode at the moment?"
Cancel it and go by yourself. If you go, all she's going to do is re-enforce her "reasons" for leaving. Go to get your head on straight and gain back your self-confidence.
He was the one who suggested we come together so that he can establish some guidelines going forward.
something about clarifying his role in things and what information can and cannot be shared.
I'm not sure what to say when there now as I am trying to stick to LRT and don't want to get into a R discussion as I fear it might push her further away.
But if I cancel she will accuse me of changing my mind again which she has accused me of a lot in the past few months.
Is he pro-marriage? Does he give you solutions, or just listen to you talk about the problems?
I'm not sure if he is pro marriage or not.
He has helped me by giving me coping mechanisms to deal with the pain.
He did advise me to give her the time and space she had asked for.
She seemed to have got a out of her session but not in the direction I had joped as it seemed to make her feel better about doing it.
he used the phrase to her that we were on "different pages" as I want to save the marriage and right now she doesn't.
It frustrates me that she doesn't even want to try but I can't say that to her as its one of the things that used to get her angry
Well, here's I see going to MC. A person, or couple, goes b/c they want help for their M problems....and basically want to save the M, and hopefully, have a better one.
When you have one spouse who is ready to walk out or has said they want a D, it makes things much more complicated, regarding counseling. If one spouse wants to save the M and the other doesn't, the only reason the walk-away S will even attend one session is either to give LBS final announcement of impending D, or be able to tell friends & family they even tried counseling and it didn't help, or like your W.....seek validation for leaving the M.
I believe it is very, very difficult to try to counsel a person who is unwilling to listen or cooperate. If you have to drag your S to the sessions, they don't want to be there b/c they don't care about saving the M.
You, however, could get individual counseling, if you feel that it is helping "you".
But if you and W decide to reconcile, "then" the two of you should attend, b/c you will definitely need the guidance of how to piece it back together. And, she should be willing to go by then.
The thing is she is willing to go. Mainly as she said she needs to talk about how she is feeling.
she was meant to attend a few on her own first and then we would decide if we could go together but he suggested that we attend together for this one to decide on what exactly his role will be and some ground rules etc.
then she will attend on her own for a few or we can alternate.
I was thinking of asking to see him in advance first to establish what exactly his aim is but I am wary that this might be viewed as manipulation by my W and I don't want that to happen
The thing is SAYING she is willing to go, and actually MEANING it, are two different things. Mine went...her idea...her setup...but it wasn't really solution-based. There was so much rehashing of the old issues that I believe it may have helped justify her reasons for leaving. So she did.
Well she actually seems enthusiatic about going. Normally she avoids having sustained contact with me unless necessary but she says she needs the therapy.
But as long as he keeps validating her need to do this things won't change.
I arrived home from my trip today and she didn't rush straight out the door. She stayed for a short time explaining all that the boys had been up to.
Then she asked me how my trip was etc, unusual but I just briefly told her that it was fine, no detail.
I did thank her for having the boys, not sure if this was the right thing to do but I want to make her see that this is my home and the boys live with me and almost make her realise that she is a guest, if that makes sense.
Yes, it makes sense.
I am concern about the direction of this C. If he is not solution based and pro-M, he could encourage her to do whatever to make herself happy.
I feel like she wants to tell you some things......in front of the C, thinking she will have his support. But IDK. Maybe she really wants IC and he made a good impression.
Just don't put all your hope in this C. Especially until you know more about him. Could you look him up on line and see if it tells anything about his technique or approach?
If you don't find anything, maybe you could try setting up a short phone session to get some answers.
I have found his profile on LinkedIn
Not sure if it would be prudent to contact via that route as it might compromise his position and mine.
I don't want to come across as controlling in this whole thing.
He has Gretchen Rubin as one of his influences.
She is author of The Happiness Projct but I'm not sure if that means anything.
He seems to have a broad range of experience in counselling not just in relationship counselling. So it would appear he isn't a specialist in MC.
Would it be wrong of me to contact him via LinkedIn?
I suppose you could try it, and if you get no response, then call the office and set up a phone conference with him. You are paying him for his professional guidance, so it is your right to know some basic information. And since you encouraged your W to see him, why can't you ask him if he is going to support a R or just counsel her for her issues, or what. I don't think he will give you any answers to those questions. She is now considered his patient too, and he won't discuss her with you. But you can ask him, "Since you are wanting to see both me and my W, maybe I need to know if you are a solution based, pro-M counselor". If he gives you some flip answer about letting him handle that end of things, then I believe you need to look elsewhere. B/c if he is what you are looking for, he shouldn't hesitate to tell you he is will work to give you both solutions and he is pro-marriage.
Ok things have now become complicated.
I discovered that she has been seeing a few people casually. One of them is married and I know him,I know he was at her apartment this week and I challenged her about it saying she is on the verge of ruining her life by messing around with married guys.
She said she knows what she is doing and that she isn't involved with him, apparently he was getting flirtatious with her and she needed to put him straight. She said it had to be done face to face which is why he was at her apartment..Bulls..t. I'm sure his wife wouldn't think it was ok for him to be there and anything she needed to say could have been done by phone or text very easily.
She is acting like a crazy woman at the moment, the OM who started all of this will be over for a flying visit to see his family within the next few weeks and she admitted he had been in touch with her so they will probably hook up.
I made the mistake of getting into a conversation with her about her behaviour and our relationship etc ( totally against LRT in know)
But I think its probably too late for us anyway.
She has removed herself completely. not only from our relationship but from her children also which shocks me, how can a loving and devoted mother chnage so dramtically in such a short time.
I'm not sure that MC on Wednesday is even worth it as it is bound to go pear shaped so I am at a loss now as to my next step.
Didn't we suggest you to NOT go? This confirms it. Or go to the C by yourself to get your head on straight.
Well I can tell you this much, when a woman wants to "set straight" some man who has made unwelcome flirtatious moves on her.......she does not have him come to her house!
We are meeting tomorrow to agree how we go forward.
I am going to tell her that I have had enough and and that this latest episode is the last straw.
I believe our marriage is irretrievably broken down as this has really gone beyond what even I imagined she was capable of.
it would take a miracle to fix this.
I don't believe I could ever trust her again
So sorry. Be careful in agreements you make. Don't meet with her if you are too upset. I hope you will continue to post for as long as you want. Please let us know how things go......and how you are doing. Okay?
Spoke to my best friend who has been amazing in this for me.
he predicted that she would do something along these lines and become a car crash months ago.
He has advised me not to say anything just to stick to LRT and look after the boys.
He haa been so right all along so I will give it some thought and see how I feel tomorrow.
Andy, remember that feelings come and go, so be careful about what you tell her and what you agree to. I bet almost everyone here has been done or hopeless more times than they can count. Also, be careful that you are not going to give up because you think it will somehow make you hurt less. It won't.
If I were you, I would say very little and listen to what she says. Then take some time to think about it before you respond or start making any plans. It can never hurt you to STFU.
Ok so we had our meeting today and it went as follows.
I waited for her to start but it was obvious she wanted me to speak so I explained that I was no longer going to invest myself emotionally in her or what she does.
I said that she can do what she likes with her life but asked that she do nothing that might adversely affect the boys.
She agreed competely with that but I explained that messing around with maried men could create a chaotic situation which may well impact them.
She stated clearly that she was not involved with him and assured me it had been dealt with. I know not to believe anything she says but she did seem genuine regarding this.
I told her it was impossible for her to go on holiday with us and that I would be taking the boys on my own, she agreed that it would be difficult under the circumstances.
I also asked that she agree that I am now the main carer for the boys and that she fully respect my position in regards to it. She agreed to that also but asked to continue to visit them as she does and have them alternate Saturdays as normal which I agreed to. It might be a tad awkward as I will be there some of the time but we will see what happens.
I then got up to leave and as I di said ' have a nice life and take care' she said 'please don't put it like we will see eachother a lot'
I said, ' yes but this is me signing out' and I left. She did seem upset about that.
I suppose I am still in LRT mode but I felt I had to lay a marker down to gain some ground back in all of this as she has constantly called the shots.
I have no idea what the future holds now but I know I do have to completely let go and GAL and who knows?
Really well handled Andy, you did brilliant. How do you feel now about things?
I suppose it will take me a few days to come to terms with things.
I know that I feel better in terms of having made some decisions and that I definitely had control over the conversation.
I also said that she cannot come to my counsellor and she needs to arrange her own. This annoyed her as she said she got a lot from him but she accepted my position and is going to sort her own counselling out.
I am determined to try and put her out if my head now as its the only way I will get through this.
Your bound to feel mixed emotions about things, it's good that you feel more in control of things & you were able to express what you want/need in a friendly but assertive way.
If your anything like me you'll probably spend some time over the next couple of days "processing" what's happened, when something significant happens for me I find myself spending a lot of time thinking about my situation again - I've now realised that's how I process what's happened so I can move forwards so try to allow those thoughts for a while.
So how are you planning to GAL?!
I have spent some time lately with an old friend who is in a similar position to me. He is over one year into a marriage breakdown and we have been supporting eachother.
He has a very large network of friends and is keen to introduce me to them and involve me in a big way.
Thats good for me as my network is currently quite small so it will be good to get out and meet new people.
I will be restricted a bit because of my commitments to the boys etc but it gives me more options
I'm really struggling today.
Its beginning to dawn on me how significant our meeting was as it more or less confirms the end of our marriage and that frightens me.
I am still trying to think in LRT but I struggle to be upbeat when I am in her company. I just want her to snap out of this madness and return to her normal self as its so painful for me to see how my beautiful, loving wife who was an amazing mum, has turned into this wildchild.
She told me yesterday that she was relieved after our meeting as she has been wanting me to let her go and move on. How on earth can I do that when I feel so crap.
I am trying to stay positive but its hard and I can only hope that my counselling tomorrow night helps to get me through this really bad spell...
I'm so sorry you're feeling badly. I know how much this hurts. But, honestly, you have no idea what's in store for the future. it could be much more fantastic . . . and it could be with your W . . . It's just too early to tell. Hang in there. We're with you.
Hi Andy. So sorry that you are feeling so low. No advice from me. Just wishing you well.
Its beginning to dawn on me how significant our meeting was as it more or less confirms the end of our marriage and that frightens me.
The marriage was really over at BD. The DB'ing journey is not an effort to get your M back, you've got to put it in the rearview mirror. Work on yourself, become the spouse only a fool would leave. Do it without your W. Give your W time and space (and lots of it) to sort through her issues. Eventually your paths may cross again and you can build a new R and M with her.
I just want her to snap out of this madness and return to her normal self
I've been on these forums a while and have read threads dating back many more years than I've been here. I have yet to read a single example of a WAS snapping out of it like that. It took her months or even years to get to the point she is at now and it'll take at least that long for her to think about you as someone she could love again. You have to take a long-term view, there are no quick fixes.
She told me yesterday that she was relieved after our meeting as she has been wanting me to let her go and move on.
That is actually a good sign, if she feels relieved then it means she feels the pressure lifting. Often when the LBS eases off the pressure then the WAS quits pursuing D.
I am trying to stay positive but its hard and I can only hope that my counselling tomorrow night helps to get me through this really bad spell...
You are very early in your sitch, don't expect too much of yourself too soon. It takes a long time to heal from this. Be patient with yourself and don't feel guilty about going through a bad spell, it is totally NORMAL, we've all been through very dark times in our sitches.
I thought that the physical pain would be easing by now though. Its very difficult as I am physically and mentally exhausted. Like I have said I am more or less a full time dad now also as I have them 90% of the time so with school runs and work then dinner then bedtime my days are completely full. Then when I am on my own I reflect that only 4 months ago I had a very happy life. Its so hard
Andy, have you watched the Shawn Achor TED talk on YouTube that 25mlc here recommends? If not, you should. It will really help your current mindset. Hang in there, these feelings will pass.
Could someone post the link for that please?
Thinking about you today, Andy. I know this is so painful for you. I believe you have to allow yourself to grieve over the loss of your W and the MR you once had together. When we lose a loved one in death, we have to grieve in order to heal and be able to move on with living.
You may not feel up to GAL in some ways, but it is so important to take good care of yourself while going through this stage. Some people get where they can't eat or sleep. It not a sign of weakness to turn to a doctor for help in this.
In the meantime, you will have support here. Your life will get better.
((Andy))
Thanks Sandi, I really appreciate the kind words.
I spent a few hours with one of my best friends yesterday who is very wise.
He really helped me sort out some things in my head and I felt better.
Then I went alone to my counselling and again this helped.
Of course then whem I went home ( she was babysitiing, her own children!!!) we had a conversation that went like this.
Me.' I need to do something next Tuesday evening, can you have the boys overnight?'
Her. ' I don't think I have anything on, yeah should be fine'
Me.' Ok, I might also need you from time to time to have them on overnight stays as I am very tired and I need a break'
Her. ' Well I hope you're not going to just spring it on me, I might have a hairdressing appointment or something so don't be just springing it on me'
Me. ' To be honest I would think your boys take priority over a hairdressing appointment'
Her. 'Stop being an a...ole'
Unbelievable
She barely sees the boys ( although she disagrees and thinks she sees them loads) and yet as soon as I suggest her having them extra she goes nuts.
She only keeps them overnight on alternate Saturdays so shy is she being so selfish, I'm baffled.
Anyway, she has now said she wants to go to MC with me next week.
She wanted to go back on her own but its my counsellor and he said he would only see her after a joint session and in the context of our relationship whether its survives or not.
I though she would refuse but she agreed???
So we are going together next week...Jesus Wept!!!
What is her point, if she is not interested in the M? It will, however, keep your wound open and you will probably be upset at whatever she has to say during the session.
Just brace yourself for anything and have zero expectations of it helping "you" at all. She isn't going to help the MR or to help you in any way. She is going for whatever "she" can get.
Yes, the WAS are unbelievably selfish, and I think you have only just began to see what will probably get worse before it's over.. Have you thought of setting up a schedule for when the kids stay at her place? You need some time for yourself, and she should act like a parent and keep them.
I don't think she could hurt me any more than she already has.
I am interested to hear what she has to say as she has yet to explain why she wants to end our marriage so suddenly. I know we weren't perfect bit we were pretty good. Also I've yet to see any remorse for her affair, that would be nice.
I have the boys mainly because our 9 year old has behavioural issues and hated going from house to house. We asked him what he wanted and he said he wanted to stay here all the time.
She agreed but was supposed to come round every day to help. That lasted one week and now she only comes Mon and Tues.
I will ask her to help out though as I do get tired and would like a break. Even one night per week. Prob is I think she should be offering but she seems happy to let me get on with it.
Why on earth do you want to keep going to C with her? The first one didn't go so well and you pretty much told her you were done, which wasn't a great idea because it allowed her to go and do what she wanted with your blessing and it just made you feel worse.
There's a big reason why one of the main DB principles is to not talk about the R. But you keep allowing it.
I have made the decision to move on.
But part of me wants to see how this will go.
We have never actually been to MC together before and she seems to really like and trust the consellor.
He may be able to get her to talk about things she won't with me but then again maybe not
I am determined to GAL whatever happens but I feel it is worth going just to see what comes of it.
I am fully expecting her to try and say or do something to railroad things but I am going to stay calm and dignified.
He seems to be very switched on and I am sure he will make sure she doesn't get away with any BS.
"I have made the decision to move on."
So you don't want to save your M. Okay that's fine. So why don't you go ahead and file? I mean you can't seem to stop yourself from being affected. That's all on you. YOU are causing yourself the pain. She's not. You can control that.
All I hear is you talking about your pride taking a hit. In fact, I don't recall you writing about any issues that were in the M that might have caused her to stray. Or, more importantly, anything you had done that she didn't like in the M.
You say alot of things like she "suddenly" changed, etc. Ask any WAS and they'll tell you that the decision is never made without serious thought.
But if you can't handle that and want to blame everything on your W the way she is blaming you, then you might as well file.
I am not perfect and yes there have been some issues in the past which hang over us.
I had a problem with gambling for a few years but that has been dealt with, at least I haven't gambled for a few years.
She said at the beginning of all of this that it was to do with my age ( I am 50 she is 32) and that she no longer found me attractive.
The OM was 8 years her junior and a very attractive guy who could have got just about any girl he wanted. He didn't want her apart from the sex so she basically put everything on the line for some fun.
She has now started to use the gambling as an excuse now I get that she needs to find reasons but it still doesn't excuse her behaviour at the moment.
I'm sure that had an effect on her but we spent months dealing with it and getting professional help and she made a 100% commitment to me and our marriage and I have never let her down since.
I suppose if I am honest I have focused so heavily in never going back there that I probably neglected her needs etc.
That may well have been a contributing factor but I can still say I honestly didn't see it coming as we had moved on so much from it and our lives were really starting to move in a very good direction.
Something changed last Nov when I turned 50, she said she didn't like it and although she had always prided herself in not thinking about the age gap it had all of a sudden become an issue.
But all of this still doesn't explain how she could change from being a loving and dedicated mum to some sort of wild child overnight.
And I can assure you that before this all started things were pretty good between us, yes I obviously neglected her in some way that I didn;t realise but surely we could have spoken about it.
She has also always maintained that I was never meant to find out about this affair and that if I hadn't we would most likely still be together.
I am interested to hear what she has to say as she has yet to explain why she wants to end our marriage so suddenly. I know we weren't perfect bit we were pretty good. Also I've yet to see any remorse for her affair, that would be nice.
See, you have already set yourself up for disappointment. She may go as far as to say she never wanted to cause you pain (or something similar), and she might even say she's sorry you were hurt........however, do not look for her to show remorse for the A.
It still sounds like you glossed over alot of details.
In fact you didn't even mention this part earlier - "She said at the beginning of all of this that it was to do with my age ( I am 50 she is 32) and that she no longer found me attractive."
That's a big one. You said that you were going out for 13 years. That means that she was only 19 when you went out with her and you were 37. That's a BIG difference no matter what you try to tell yourself. I suspect that she wishes she had experienced more of life before you got together and she felt trapped.
You said that you had gambling issues that she had to deal with. That's alot to handle for a 20 something. And yet you expected her to take it.
That's why she feels free now and you interpret it as "irresponsible". On the flip side I would say that it was irresponsible of you to not realize this would happen. Not blaming, but it seems a bit obvious.
And then you say in a small line, "I suppose if I am honest I have focused so heavily in never going back there that I probably neglected her needs etc."
What do you mean "etc."? I don't think you really get it that there was probably alot of things she had to deal with at such a young age but you seem to minimize.
"But all of this still doesn't explain how she could change from being a loving and dedicated mum to some sort of wild child overnight."
It makes perfect sense. She's going through all the things she felt she missed out on. If the guy she's going out with is young and attractive, it is an ego boost to her. She probably had low self-esteem that she didn't feel like she could talk to you about.
"yes I obviously neglected her in some way that I didn;t realise but surely we could have spoken about it."
Not really. Are you the type that tends to talk over her? Did you put down any of her ideas? It could be very well that due to your age, she saw you as a "father figure" and so didn't think it was her place to tell you her thoughts. There are many reasons.
Mr Bond
You have highlighted a lot of very valid points.
As fo the age gap, yes it appears to be a big issue, but she was the one who pursued me. I am very young looking for my age and at the time we met she pursued me. She set her sights on me and went for it, despite the fact that she was engaged to another guy who she had been with for 3 years and they were planning to get married ( bit of a pattern maybe?)
Yes the gambling was a big issue and a lot for her to deal with. All I can say is that is has been dealt with. And She made a commitment to put it behind uas and move on years ago.
Also she has always been very mature for her age and when her and I got together her closest friend said she wasn't at all surprised that she was with an older man as it was inevitable given her attitude and outlook on life.
As far as me neglecting her needs, I really mean that I probably didn't focus enough on her needs as a woman, attention to the things that matter to her as a wife etc.
But I can assure you I was a very devoted husband and absolutely adored her. In fact most of my friends now say I was too adoring of her and treated her like a princess.
She most definitely called the shots in our home and in our relationship. She made the ultimate decisions as to what we spent money on, where we went on holiday and how we generally lived our lives. I work in a demanding job, she only recently started full time work after years of being part time.
As far as putting her down, well anyone who was witness to our relationship would say she was in charge. We used to have pride in the fact that we almost never argued, that was because she might have got aggressive or confrontational over something and I always calmed it down and walked away. There was a huge imbalance there and it was probably wrong to do that but I have never been the arguing type.
There certainly was a big gap in our levels of intelligence (I hope this doesn't come across as being arrogant) and it is something that is really becoming obvious in what is happening at the moment. My closest friends have said that they wonder what we ever talked about as our interests are different in lots of different areas and she definitely doesn't think in the same depth as I do.
I was attracted to her from the moment I saw her as she is a very attractive girl, she always got lots of attention from guys when we were out but I never expected her to be attracted to me. So I suppose her looks were what done it for me, I was blown away, besotted, and have been ever since.
As far as putting down her ideas..on the contrary, anything she has ever aspired to I have supported, over the past few years there have been several things she wanted to do such as take a college course or join the Fire service etc and I supported and encouraged each and every one, I drove her to her assessmnents to the fire service and helped her with her college application forms and was completely supportive.
I know that on the face of it and because of the age gap it might be construed that I was some sort of father figure but it genuinely wasn't like that, she was very much the head of household.'mummys the boss here'the boys used to say.
I'm going to repeat this again because it was genuinely the case, prior to Dec 14TH ( start of affair) we were a happy, loving couple( not perfect) who got on well, were affectionate with eachother and we had a happy and comfortable life.
I was never meant to find out about this affair, sometimes I wish I hadn't......
I also need to add
None of our friends and family saw this coming, it absolutely rocked our world to the core.
Her brother, with whom she is very close, expressed that he was in disbelief that this would happen to us, he said if he had been given a list of 10 couples one of which might split up and was asked to choose he would be shocked that we might even be on the list at all.
One of her closest friends said that she just did not see this coming, she knows all about the past and knows my W very well and actually expressed the opinion that she had 'lost the plot' she was just gobsmaked by what has happened and can't seem to understand what is going on in my W head. So much so that she has backed off from her as she struggles to understand her now.
When I am in my W company she seems to be a million miles away, talking to her is like talking to a ghost sometimes as I get the feeling she isn't really engaging, its so hard to explain.
I honestly can't believe that you can't see how one-sided your "opinion" of your M is. There are always signs. They might have been things you said, things you did, but there is always something. I tried to give you an explanation as to why your W is acting the way she is, but you don't seem to want to believe it. To be honest, you didn't ever imagine that you'd be in this situation did you?
"As fo the age gap, yes it appears to be a big issue, but she was the one who pursued me."
She was 19. She was at an age where she didn't understand what love truly is. In fact, her almost marrying someone she knew when she was 16 shows that.
"I am very young looking for my age and at the time we met she pursued me. She set her sights on me and went for it, despite the fact that she was engaged to another guy who she had been with for 3 years and they were planning to get married ( bit of a pattern maybe?)"
You were in your 30s and your ego was stroked when a teenager went and fell all over herself being infatuated with you.
"Yes the gambling was a big issue and a lot for her to deal with. All I can say is that is has been dealt with."
Pretty one sided on your part.
"And She made a commitment to put it behind uas and move on years ago."
And yet it was brought up again.
"Also she has always been very mature for her age and when her and I got together her closest friend said she wasn't at all surprised that she was with an older man as it was inevitable given her attitude and outlook on life."
She was a teenager.
"As far as me neglecting her needs, I really mean that I probably didn't focus enough on her needs as a woman, attention to the things that matter to her as a wife etc.
But I can assure you I was a very devoted husband and absolutely adored her."
So you're saying that you didn't pay attention to her needs and the things that matter to her as a wife, yet you paint the picture that you were a good husband. A little contradictory don't you think? Being a MAN in a marriage is more than just earning a living to put a roof over her head and food on the table. Feeding the emotional needs of a woman is more important.
"In fact most of my friends now say I was too adoring of her and treated her like a princess."
Sounds a bit like you treated her more like a child as opposed to your mate who is supposed to be your equal.
"She most definitely called the shots in our home and in our relationship. She made the ultimate decisions as to what we spent money on, where we went on holiday and how we generally lived our lives. I work in a demanding job, she only recently started full time work after years of being part time."
But what about the way you talked to and treated her. No one treats their spouse "adoringly" 24/7.
"As far as putting her down, well anyone who was witness to our relationship would say she was in charge. We used to have pride in the fact that we almost never argued, that was because she might have got aggressive or confrontational over something and I always calmed it down and walked away."
There is another word for "aggressive and confrontational" it's called passion. She was probably passionate about something and you "calmed it down" and "walked away" thinking in YOUR mind that it was solved. When in reality, to her they weren't.
"There was a huge imbalance there and it was probably wrong to do that but I have never been the arguing type."
You don't need to argue but there are better ways of dealing with things that acting as if you knew more than her and walking away. That's probably how she perceived it. That you didn't want to listen or couldn't be bothered by her concerns.
"There certainly was a big gap in our levels of intelligence (I hope this doesn't come across as being arrogant) and it is something that is really becoming obvious in what is happening at the moment. My closest friends have said that they wonder what we ever talked about as our interests are different in lots of different areas and she definitely doesn't think in the same depth as I do."
Again, she was a child when you went out with her. How much more "intelligent" do you actually think she could be? Just the fact that you even mention this does show your egotistical nature. In fact, in that one line alone, you managed to diminish her role into one of an interesting plaything as opposed to a spouse.
"I was attracted to her from the moment I saw her as she is a very attractive girl, she always got lots of attention from guys when we were out but I never expected her to be attracted to me. So I suppose her looks were what done it for me, I was blown away, besotted, and have been ever since."
Sorry to say but that sounds a little creepy. I mean, you liked how she looked at 19.
"As far as putting down her ideas..on the contrary, anything she has ever aspired to I have supported, over the past few years there have been several things she wanted to do such as take a college course or join the Fire service etc and I supported and encouraged each and every one, I drove her to her assessmnents to the fire service and helped her with her college application forms and was completely supportive."
I believe you only did the things that you were comfortable at doing. But what if she told you to change in some way? You just said above that you were intellectually her superior, so that makes your actions seem one-sided.
"I know that on the face of it and because of the age gap it might be construed that I was some sort of father figure but it genuinely wasn't like that, she was very much the head of household.'mummys the boss here'the boys used to say."
Her relationship with the children and household is different than the one she shares with you as a H. She was missing that.
"I'm going to repeat this again because it was genuinely the case, prior to Dec 14TH ( start of affair) we were a happy, loving couple( not perfect) who got on well, were affectionate with eachother and we had a happy and comfortable life."
I have to call BS on this one. That is all mindreading and one-sided from YOUR point of view. I bet if we asked her, we would get a different response. There is alot of denial on your part it seems. Just being honest.
I get that you are trying to make me see that things may have not been exactly as I perceived them to be and I appreciate your honesty.
But it really wasn't 'creepy' as you put it.
She was a very mature 19 year old when we met and our relationship was supported by everyone in our lives as they regarded us as a couple very much in love and happy together.
I have really examined myself over the past few months and tried to understand how this could have happened so suddenly.
in the course of that I have accepted that there were lots of things I wasn't aware of and that I now wish I had paid more attention to.
But I resent your suggestion that I treated her like a child because that simply was not the case.
When I say I neglected her needs it was more a case of not recognising what those needs were, I understand them now since this happened as I have tried to explore what went wrong and realise there were a lot of areas I did badly in.
It is very easy for an outsider looking in to say that a 50 year old and a 32 year old can't work, we questioned this at the very start of our relationship but were so in love we decided we could do it.
The age has only been an issue for her since I turned 50, she has admitted that very clearly, and it is an issue she admits she can't understand considering that we never had issues with it before.
I have spoken at length to friends and have suggested myself that perhaps she feels that she has spent all her teenage/twentysomethinglife in relationships and hasn't fully explored who she is as a person and I have told her myself that I understand her need to do this.
Trust me, this is now not really about me any longer, I get that our marriage looks doomed and I'm just going to have to accept that.
However none of this analysis explains her distancing herself from our children and that is my over-riding concern at the moment.
Also, none of how we were as a couple or the problems that might have been underlying it justify her having an affair, we are all responsible for our own actions and no matter what the issues I do take responsibility for mine however she refuses to do the same regarding this.
Also
Do you not think I have thought about what you have said already?
I spent weeks and weeks trying to understand why this had happened and ended up making myself ill. I lost 16lbs in just under a month because I wasn't eating as I blamed myself for this. So much so that everyone beagn to tell me to give myself a break.
I have stood back and let her 'do her thing' and been a dad to our two little boys while she has been out dating and having fun. She took herself of to her sisters 500 miles away for 4 days and spoke to the boys for barely 3 minutes on the phone while she was gone.
I put my boys to bed every single night and take them to school every single morning. I get up when they have nightmares and are vomitting at 3am. My eldest takes regular night terrors and is very hard to manage at times but I keep going.
So yes, I wasn't the perfect husband, who can ever claim to be, but I never had the opportunity to address any of the issues she might have had because she decided to sleep with someone else, refused to stop when I asked and then decided to leave me alone with our two sons to go 'find herself'
So sorry if I seem a bit emotional and angry about this but I believe it is justified.
"She was a very mature 19 year old when we met and our relationship was supported by everyone in our lives as they regarded us as a couple very much in love and happy together."
She may have seemed "mature" but as an older man, you should know that growth and maturity comes with time. She missed out on experiences that normal 20 year olds go through. Go back and look at what you were like in your 20s and what the women were like at that age. They all matured over time.
"I have really examined myself over the past few months and tried to understand how this could have happened so suddenly."
That's what you don't understand. It doesn't happen "suddenly". It's an accumulation of many factors that eventually reach a tipping point. Again, you're only seeing things through your eyes and not your W's.
"in the course of that I have accepted that there were lots of things I wasn't aware of and that I now wish I had paid more attention to."
Yes this wasn't an overnight decision for her.
"But I resent your suggestion that I treated her like a child because that simply was not the case. "
Really? I believe you did say this ... ""There certainly was a big gap in our levels of intelligence (I hope this doesn't come across as being arrogant) and it is something that is really becoming obvious in what is happening at the moment. My closest friends have said that they wonder what we ever talked about as our interests are different in lots of different areas and she definitely doesn't think in the same depth as I do.""
A big part of you is in denial. Until you start understanding that, you aren't going to be able to get your W back.
Did you read the post straight after that where I admitted blaming myself?
If I'm in denial its because I haven't had anything explained to me. I'm willing to shoulder my part in this but she has yet to explain exactly why she left.
I have accepted that this must have been building up but she showed absolutely no signs of it leading to the BD.
She throws out small irrelevant reasons for why she left, bearing in mind that initially when I discovered the affair she said she knew the difference between love and lust and that she didn't want to end our marriage.
Having a higher level of intelligence than a partner isn't something that I feel would prevent a good relationship.
It was something that we were both aware of but it didn't matter a jot to me. I loved her and still do It doesn't mean at all that I treated her less because of it, it was irrelevant to me and I suppose my friends are bringing it up now to help me try and accept that she has gone and try to help me move on.
I really wish you would get to the point and explain what exactly I need to do here because all I see is criticism of me and some belief that I am in denial.
please explain it to me because I fail to see what the point is.
"Did you read the post straight after that where I admitted blaming myself?"
Yes I did. And I also read the parts where in the next sentence you belittled your W. I don't think you even realize you do that. I'm getting a clearer idea of your marriage dynamic. Believe me, you're not the only one with the big age difference we've seen on here.
"I really wish you would get to the point and explain what exactly I need to do here"
Have you really read what I've written? I have explained it to you in detail. Let me put it to you this way. First you have to understand where your W is coming from. You keep denying how she feels at this moment, thinking it's a sudden incident. Next, you have to understand that the age issue is a big one. Much of what you wrote was about how you perceived things. No matter what you may think, your W didn't get to go through the things most normal 20 year olds do.
Plus, since you turned 50, she could be saying to herself "wow my H is pretty old" when she sees friends her age married to spouses closer in age to them. Do you LOOK old? Are you in shape? All that counts.
You might think that's trivial, but right now she is trying to "find herself" because she never had a chance to do that when she was younger. Simple as that.
You are looking for a magic bullet or a special piece of advice that will make your W immediately come back to you. It doesn't work that way.
Your personal issues, your seeing her as not your "intellectual equal", your not seeing to her needs all add up to help cause her current decision. It may not seem fair TO YOU but that's how she sees things now.
Your W wants to be free which is something she never got to do when she was younger. You can't keep trying to control that.
What have YOU done to actually change? Have you done things to fix yourself? Right now that's all you can do and take care of your kids. So how have YOU changed? If you don't, then why should she come back to the same situation now that caused her to leave in the first place?
Ok
I get what you are saying
Here is how I have changed.
I realised after BD that I was very unhelpful in the morning routine with the boys. My first act when we got up would be to grab a coffee and open my laptop to do some work( I work from home) meanwhile she would be sorting the boys out and getting things organised for school etc.
I now realise I should have helped more with that, especially now that I have to do it all alone, it is hard work and I could and should have helped out more.
She had been saying for a while that I had put on a lot of weight and wanted me to lose some. I started a diet in Aug last year but only started the gym in Oct. I have since upped my attendance to 3 times per week, have a strict diet and have lost a total of 46lbs and am toned and in the best shape of my life, she has even acknowledged that saying I look amazing.
I have realised that I didn't spend enough time focusing on her as a woman and regarded her primarily as the mother of our boys, that was wrong, she needed me to pay more attention to her as a woman and that was remiss of me.
I believed we were unbreakable and took our marriage for granted,I realise that, I should have listened when she told me the age thing was an issue and worked on the other things.
I do look young for my age, most people don't believe me when I tell them I am 50 but I obviously left the other things a bit late for her and now she is gone.
I can't begin to explain the pain I am in right now, I miss her desperately and it kills me to know he is dating other guys because there was a time, not so long ago when we were so amazingly close.
But I am continuing to work on myself because I know I must, for me and the boys.
You must understand though, she really has pulled away from them also, that upsets me greatly and I am at a loss as to how to handle that.
Finally some honesty.
"I can't begin to explain the pain I am in right now, I miss her desperately and it kills me to know he is dating other guys because there was a time, not so long ago when we were so amazingly close."
We all have gone through that. We understand the pain of rejection, agony, the fear, etc. You can work through it.
"But I am continuing to work on myself because I know I must, for me and the boys."
Good. But be sure not to develop a martyr complex. When that happens resentment will set in on your side. It happens all the time.
"You must understand though, she really has pulled away from them also, that upsets me greatly and I am at a loss as to how to handle that."
I understand that. She's doing that because she feels like she needs to be totally "free" to discover herself. You just concentrate on the boys and you. Read the DB/DR as soon as possible. That will give you focus and show you how to write goals.
I have the DR book and have started to read it.
Sandi suggested I jump to the LRT section first because of where things are at which I have.
I am really struggling to detach and would really appreciate some help with that. I think about her every day and weekends are the hardest as I know she is out and most likely meeting other guys, its so hard.
How long does it take for this to feel better? Especially as I lived for her and the boys it feels like my world has been ripped apart. Nothing really makes sense without her and I hate feeling like that.
Is DR going to help even if she is gone and may never be coming back?
I'm going through so many different sets of emotions right now it's hard to clarify what I am really feeling anymore.
Out of the blue she has sent me the following text
'Did the boys lie on for you this morning?
Have a look at what nights you want me to have them over the Easter holidays. I'm sure you could be doing with a lie in.
Do you want to do something with them as a family Easter Sunday, Monday or Tuesday?'
So all of a sudden she wants to do something as a family, not sure how to handle this.
I think it would be good for the boys but not sure how we will be with eachother??
That is how many WAW's in an A will do. They want their separate life from H & kids, but then they want to eat cake now and then and play like a family. But she chose to divide the family.
IMO, you should pass. One, b/c you are struggling to detach. And two, b/c she needs to realize these things come to a halt when you D. At this critical stage, it is important to stick to a tougher side of love b/c if anything you do will influence her, it will be her seeing you confidently moving forward without her.
Ok now things are getting strange
She came round today to see the boys and actually had a conversation with me, small talk really but the first time she has done that for a while.
Then she asked me what my plans were tomorrow as she wanted to see them.
I said I hadn't any plans yet as I hadn't thought about it yet but may take them out somewhere for the day.
She then asked if we could do something together???
Normally she doesn't want to be near me and this is just weird.
I said I would think about it, a while later she said it again and suggested we take them to a town we used to go to regularly as a family which has amusements etc for the boys and said we could spend the day there.
Funny enough though today was the first day an ages that I wasn't missing her very much and I'm actually not bothered either way about spending time with her as I am working o my detachment. But she has taken me by surprise here as this is so out of character from how she has been for months so I'm a bit confused.
I suspect she will open her little bag of tricks, so be prepared for anything from her. Right now, she wants to see if she can crook her finger and you will run to her. Of course she is being sure to label it "as a family", but if you will act disinterred in being with her, I think she may try harder to see if you'll cave.
But it does not mean she is ready to reconcile, or even thinking about it. Women are very complex creatures, so don't try to figure it out. Just don't be confused by making something out of her actions, and don't be caught off guard.
I am already very suspicious of her behaviour all of the time now.
she is acting very strangely now. The place she suggested is quite a drive away which means a full day out there and back. She has been keen to keep contact between us to a minimum so this baffles me.
I don't know what to make of it.
She has already told the boys we are going so I feel compromised but I am curious as to what is going on.
I will now see her quite a bit over the next few days as Mon and Tues are her main days with them.
Funnily though I am really starting to detach as I begin to really dislike what she is doing and her manipulation.
An interesting few days ahead I'm sure
Well then refuse to be compromises (or manipulated) by her. I would tell her she will have to explain to the boys that she was wrong to give them that answer. And she needs to do in front of you, to be sure they hear it right.
One thing I figured out early on that really helped me was to enforce the schedule my WAW and I had with our daughter as rigidly as possible. I almost always made sure I had SOMETHING planned with my daughter the times I had her, even if it was just going to the grocery store or the park. This was important, because my WAW went through a phase where she would want to just show up for a few minutes to see my D, then take off again. After the first couple of times that happened and my daughter cried after she left, I knew I had to put a stop to that.
Granted, my daughter was a bit younger than your 2 boys, but it's one thing to walk in and out of your life, quite another to walk in and out of your boys' lives. Make yourself busy with them all the time, and your mind will eventually think about her less and less.
I didn't go back and reread all your posts to see if you have a defined schedule, but I think you need to have one preplanned, even for holidays. You can always tinker with it over time. But it's not fair to your kids if you don't know where they're going to be, because they won't know either and that's not good for them.
When you're not with the boys, always go do something. Even if you just take a long walk (no cost to do that) or go to the gym or try a new restaurant.
I decided to go ahead with the day out, mainly as the boys were so excited about going I didn't want to disappoint them.
Also I was curious to see if we could spend any time together without things going pear shaped.
It was a really good day, the boys had a great day and my W and I got on really well. No R talk at all and I felt very relaxed in her company.
We took the boys to the fairground and then went for dinner and it just felt like we were still a couple ( minus the affection of course).
We arrived back home and she asked the boys had they enjoyed themselves which they of course said yes.
She then looked at me and asked me had I enjoyed it and smiled at me, a strange smile that I haven't worked out yet. I said yes and she said it was a lovely day, smiling that smile again.
Then she left, she will be back to see the boys tomorrow.
So now I am wondering what this is all about, its obvious that we are still able to spend quality time together, it was relaxed and everything felt so natural, so what is going on??
I don't think it has set me back in terms of detachment because I know how volatile things she can be but it has made me wonder what on earth goes on inside her head. She made all the moves to make this day happen,she was pleasant and agreeable with me for the first time in months.
Things just seem very strange at the moment.
I decided to go ahead with the day out, mainly as the boys were so excited about going I didn't want to disappoint them
I could have predicted your answer, word for word. And people talk about the WAS having script!
So now I am wondering what this is all about, its obvious that we are still able to spend quality time together, it was relaxed and everything felt so natural, so what is going on??
She intended to give you a wonderful day, and now it is working on you just as she knew it would. You are wondering what it all means, and why was she smiling the way she did, etc. And you think it didn't affect your detaching?
Not that you'll do it, but you really need to pull back immediately. She is playing you.
Yeah I agree with you Sandi
I know that there is something behind this but I haven't worked it out yet.
I intend to continue with LRT and not let her manipulate me.
I am slowly beginning to detach and if I'm honest today probably didn't help me with that.
I have a theory that the OM is over for a visit home this coming weekend. This Saturday coming is her night with the boys and she asked me today if I had plans and could I swap?
I didn't give her an answer because although I have something in mind it isn't certain yet that I will be doing it so I told her I would get back to her.
If he is coming over then its likely thats the reason for all of this, however, she has asked me to swap many times over the months and knows I normally agree anyway so she wouldn't need to go to all of that trouble to ask me so I'm not sure.
Got to stop over thinking things I suppose, If my plans come together for Saturday I am going to say no anyway.
In fact I should probably say no either way.
So Sandi
Should I refuse all suggestions of time together?
I'm really torn here as its a difficult time with the Easter break coming up and the boys are looking forward to it and we always made a big deal of Easter and went on many day trips and made the most of our time off work.
It basically means we will be doing separate things with them which leaves me without them at certain key times over the holidays which will really get to me as I hate being apart from them.
I really need some clear guidance on this as I really am struggling to know what to do for the best.
Your head was clear until you spent the day as a family. Now you are confused again and thinking about Easter.
I'm really torn here as its a difficult time with the Easter break coming up and the boys are looking forward to it and we always made a big deal of Easter and went on many day trips and made the most of our time off work.
But that was in the past. That was when you had a healthy M. You do not have one now. ( You may have one in the future if you play your cards right. ) In the meantime, If you try to do the same things as you did before she became a wayward wife, it won't work. If you use your kids as an excuse to continue these activities, it still won't work. And that is what you are doing........using them for your excuse and saying you don t want to disappoint them. I see this happen all the time with LBH'S. But why would she try to change her mind if she can have family and vacation like always? What has she lost? NOTHING!
It basically means we will be doing separate things with them which leaves me without them at certain key times over the holidays which will really get to me as I hate being apart from them
.
More excuses. If you get D you will be doing things separately and giving up time with the boys.
Bottom line is you can't go both directions at the same time! If you are in LRT.......then you have to stick with it. You can't play one big happy family on weekends and go back to LRT weekdays and expect her to change her mind. Before this past weekend, you were talking about being detached. You sure aren't detached and won't be as long you find some reason to be with her.
But, this is your life......not mine. I am just here trying to help you. I am giving as clear guide lines as I know how. It is up to you to decide if you want to see them or not. Sometimes, a newcomer just searches from post to post asking advice from other members until he finds one that will tell him what he wants to hear. I'm not that person, as you see. I tell you how it is.
The LRT can work, but it takes time and consistency. She will have to try her different tricks and see they won't change your direction. When she faces what she has lost due to waywardness, and if she wants to R, then she will get serious about it. But she hasn't reached that place yet.
This is not her reaching out. This her crooking her finger.
I know you are right
I guess I really have to man up and start making some difficult but right choices.
I make the mistake of thinking that if I am Mr Nice Guy she will see the error of her ways.
I know that she lies and manipulates to suit herself and I know that whenever she suggests something I wrongly see it as some sort of breakthrough when in fact it is just her cake eating.
I also know that she will be at a complete loose end over the easter break if we don't do something together as most of her family live far away apart from her dad who will probably go away for the break.
So thats why she has suggested doing things together as otherwise she will be on her own.
I have family and friends that I can spend time with over the break when I don't have the boys so it won't be so bad apart from missing them.
But is it really about making her realise what she has lost?
Is it really as simple as that?
I need to understand how that would have such an effect. My W is very stubborn, might she not just see it as me just being an a....ole?
Stop caring about what she thinks. She's left and broken her word. Care about what YOU think. Move away from her. She doesn't deserve you right now. Hang in there. We're with you.
I admire your honesty. It must be hard.
You can't make her realize anything. You can have influence. But there is a difference between manipulating and influencing another person. You shouldn't do anything as a way of punishing her for her decisions. If she thinks you are trying to control, judge, punish, guilt. etc., it won't be a successful outcome. However, if you do what you need in order to detach and protect yourself, and you don't give her the advantages of being M to you while she chooses to be wayward....she will figure out what she has lost and you won't have to point it out. What you "think" would be the main loss to her.....may not be what tips the scale. My loss was not what my H probably thought would be what really woke me up.
Your job is to stick to the plan you have chosen until you are convinced she wants to reconcile the M. In order to do that, you have to keep your head as clear as possible, detach emotionally, protect yourself, and know your objective. You let things hit her without your protection or rescue.
Whenever she comes to you with the excuses of doing things for the boys, just remember that it confuses them when they get these mixed messages. Don't let her guilt you into things she wants.
Reconciling for the WAS seems to be slow and painful. That is why we tell the LBS that it takes a lot of time. And the more cake the WAS eats, the longer it seems to take them wanting to go back into the M all the way. Btw, in case she should ever suggest she moves back to house and stay in a separate bedroom, do not accept it. A WAW will sometimes do that when finances are difficult for her, or she's lonely, etc. But bottom line is she's not ready to be his W in all ways. She just wants more cake!
Thanks Sandi that makes a lot of sense to me now.
I do have a dilemma now though.
I have agreed ( based on how well yesterday went)to maybe doing something on one of the Easter days together.
Nothing is set in stone and no arrangments made but it has been agreed in principle.
So how do I cancel that without looking like some indecisive fool.
I had considered saying the following and would appreciate your thoughts.
'We had a really good day with the boys yesterday and it was good to be able to spend time in your company without getting into a conversation about us. But I don't think it really helped either of us, considering that you are determined our marriage is over. All it did was remind me of what I am losing and I need to try to move on with my life. Also I think it sends mixed messages to the boys as it makes them think that perhaps we might be getting back together.So I don't think spending time together over Easter is a good idea, you can spend time with the boys on your own and I will do the same. I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from'
How does that sound, is it even necessary to explain myself?
I just don't want to come across as being weak etc so give me your thoughts
I think you could say something shorter and where you dont explain yourself neither you judge her...
Something in the lines of : Cant meet eastern, I have another plans.
Since you've made the offer, I would recommend you stick to it. Make it a memorable time with your sons. Leave an impression that gets your W thinking again. Of course you're not doing it for her benefit but for yours.
So you think I should go ahead and spend a day with her and the boys again?
I'm just concerned that she is cake eating.
Also, dilemma number two for me right now
I mentioned that she had asked me to have the boys this Saturday night, which is her night and that I had a theory that the OM is home on a visit this weekend.
Well she hasn't spoke about it since Sunday but I'm sure she'll ask again, I am going to refuse as I do have plans although I could still have the boys as I am just having a friend come up for the night.
I am going to tell her we are going out.
But it will be a worry that she might put the boys to bed and then invite the OM around to hers.My eldest gets regular night terrrors and he might get up in the night and if OM is there it will freak him out.He is already struggling with our split as it is and it's only the stability of him being at home that has settled him.He doesn't even like sleeping at hers.
I don't want OM near my boys, its not as if he will ever feature in their lives, in fact if my theory is correct and he is over it may well be his last visit for quite a long time. I think she plans it as a last farewell.
I could be completely wrong but its going to be a worry for me.
You're not asking her to come back to the M. It's just a couple of hours with the kids. You can't control what she does afterwards.
You're still trying to control things. Unfortunately having an OM is part of the way life is and if you get D'd it's something you will have to deal with.
I'm not concerned about the OM except for any contact he might have with my children. They are still vunerable as we have only separated just over two months and it would be too much for them to encounter mummys 'boyfriend' at such an early stage in things.
I told her last week I didn't care what she did as long as it didn't adversely effect the boys and I meant that.
I believe them meeting any other man in her life at this stage is much to soon and would have an adverse effect.
If that happens I will make it very clear that it is unacceptable.
It's not about me being jealous, although I would be lying if I said I wasn't, but I now completely understand the need to give up control, especially things I have no control over. But I do have the right to protect my sons from any more hurt and I intend to do that.
My intention is to let her do as she pleases, but not at their expense, this is something I am not prepared to compromise on.
I decided to go ahead with the day out, mainly as the boys were so excited about going I didn't want to disappoint them.
Also I was curious to see if we could spend any time together without things going pear shaped.
It was a really good day, the boys had a great day and my W and I got on really well. No R talk at all and I felt very relaxed in her company.
We took the boys to the fairground and then went for dinner and it just felt like we were still a couple ( minus the affection of course).
We arrived back home and she asked the boys had they enjoyed themselves which they of course said yes.
She then looked at me and asked me had I enjoyed it and smiled at me, a strange smile that I haven't worked out yet. I said yes and she said it was a lovely day, smiling that smile again.
Then she left, she will be back to see the boys tomorrow.
So now I am wondering what this is all about, its obvious that we are still able to spend quality time together, it was relaxed and everything felt so natural, so what is going on??
I don't think it has set me back in terms of detachment because I know how volatile things she can be but it has made me wonder what on earth goes on inside her head. She made all the moves to make this day happen,she was pleasant and agreeable with me for the first time in months.
Things just seem very strange at the moment.
Don't be a bit fooled by any of those creepy WAS smiles. I hate those. Yikes! I just got shivers. They are like smiling assassins!
A simple guideline that has served me well is that, at this point in time, when WAS are happy, or smiling, that is not good news for LBS.
It is actually better when they are out of sorts. That can mean that their wonderful, shiny new life without you is anything but.
However, this is just a general observation for me during my ordeal. No mind-reading; keep expectations very, very low.
And, I would cancel the Easter thing since it wasn't set in stone. Just be vague and say that it won't work for you. Then clam up; do not explain your decision at all. It just won't work for you. Period. Repeat as necessary.
If you did go through with it, it wouldn't be helpful in gauging her ever-changing moods or your sitch; it would probably turn out just like the last outing. And you don't need that. More cake-eating.