melissa, continued part 2 - DivorceBusting.com

Just starting a new thread since mine is in imminent danger of being locked.

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melissa, continued . . .

Originally Posted By: labug

I am not convinced that he is capable of this convo even with a C there, drop that expectation, go in open and with the intent to do a lot of listening. If you both go in stony-faced and unmoveable you can bet nothing will happen. Please note, I am not saying you give anything up, just listen openly.

If he can't hold his temper or attempts to manipulate, a good C who deals with this on a daily basis will see right through that and it will be in the report.

Don't expect a lot of movement without several meetings. More precisely, expect nothing.

Be a new Melissa he's never seen.

Why drop the expectation when that is the behavior he always shows? If someone keeps stealing my paper everyday, you want me to assume he won't do it tomorrow? Come on! Melissa isn't in the stage where she is DBing to get her marriage back. Now, she's fighting for her kids well being. At this point, she should be using everything she has (her intelligence to deduce his actions or behaviors). If I were her, I wouldn't put my childrens future in the hands of a counselor. Just in my state alone there was one who was the deciding factor in many divorce cases that sent the child to one parent or the next. This C didn't even have a degree. She made up all her credentials and made millions from it.

Melissa,

You know your h more then any of us here. You see how he is on a daily basis. If you think he can NOT do the things you tell us he does, then go see a C. If not, don't waste your time.

Brian

If someone keeps stealing my paper everyday, you want me to assume he won't do it tomorrow?

Really? , so you assume the person will do the same? Have you take in consideration WHY that person its stealing the paper? Whats the reason behind that action...

I guess you rather just judge that person for the action that its doing instead of finding a way to help that person to not do it again....thats why many people dies in this world...because the easiest thing its to judge based on my belief....the hardest thing its to look inside ourselves and see how we can make a different approach to that situation so that way maybe that person will react in a different way....
Thats what I call fear, the fear of looking inside ourselves...

If I were her, I wouldn't put my childrens future in the hands of a counselor. Just in my state alone there was one who was the deciding factor in many divorce cases that sent the child to one parent or the next. This C didn't even have a degree. She made up all her credentials and made millions from it.

Brian....a simple 2x4: you are not her... And again judging its not helping her...before you give advice please spend sometime looking inside yourself....
I did that when I first came here and as we keep repeating many times, this is not a legal advice forum, this is a Dbing forum in which all or most of us work in improving ourselves...

Originally Posted By: ye21

If I were her, I wouldn't put my childrens future in the hands of a counselor. Just in my state alone there was one who was the deciding factor in many divorce cases that sent the child to one parent or the next. This C didn't even have a degree. She made up all her credentials and made millions from it.

Brian....a simple 2x4: you are not her... And again judging its not helping her...before you give advice please spend sometime looking inside yourself....
I did that when I first came here and as we keep repeating many times, this is not a legal advice forum, this is a Dbing forum in which all or most of us work in improving ourselves...

So because you disagree with me, I get a 2x4? So your opinion is right? Sounds like you still have a lot to learn.

Melissa, since obviously I have no idea what I am talking about and am giving you awful advice. I'll leave your thread (as well as this board). Good luck to you.

I appreciate everyone's insight and advice.

Melissa

I just wanted to comment quickly so I won't lose your thread...here's something I read that truly resonated with me, and I think it lessens the risk you face with your h and the whole child custody issue.

Mind you, there are NO painless answers here, and imo, there's no way you both will be happy with the outcome, at first...

La Bug wrote:

I am not convinced that he is capable of this convo even with a C there, drop that expectation, go in open and with the intent to do a lot of listening. If you both go in stony-faced and unmoveable you can bet nothing will happen. Please note, I am not saying you give anything up, just listen openly.

If he can't hold his temper or attempts to manipulate, a good C who deals with this on a daily basis will see right through that and it will be in the report.

Don't expect a lot of movement without several meetings. More precisely, expect nothing.

Be a new Melissa he's never seen.

This^^ is good stuff. As for why expect nothing? B/C then you won't attach hopes to your expectations and b/c you'll be less disappointed, more protected, etc.

But you have to "do" something b/c he's making demands and it's to your advantage to direct that, than to ignore it and hope he does nothing...I think he'll do something if you don't.

((( )))

M,

Sorry for the hijack....gotta talk with Brian & Ye here.

Brian,

Hey...are you ok? What a fairly strong reaction to Ye's comments. It seems to come off as being pretty thin-skinned....did you have a bad day today?

Ye & Brian,

I think it's time for a beer summit and bounce back here. Cool?

Originally Posted By: melissag

Just starting a new thread since mine is in imminent danger of being locked.

Totally unrelated useless information: I use to give tours on a German U-boat, reading the words "imminent danger" reminded me of my tour script.

I hope you had a good day today M!

Hi M! I hope that things are going okay! I thought of you and your kids yesterday while watching Frozen (twice) with my kiddos.

Originally Posted By: 3boyzmom

Hi M! I hope that things are going okay! I thought of you and your kids yesterday while watching Frozen (twice) with my kiddos.

We went to see Frozen, mainly because you've seen it so many times I figured it must offer something. It did! (Good call!)

I love Frozen! I totally identify with Olaf.

"I've always loved the idea of summer, and sun, and all things hot . . . "

So I learned today my H refuses to agree to a temporary parenting plan of any sort unless I agree to begin 50/50, 5-2-2-5 on a set date. (My last proposal was that I agreed to his temporary parenting plan and schedule but said we should see how the kids do and make appropriate changes if needed in late May. I am trying to keep it about the kids, he seems to be keeping it about himself.)

Sigh. So the next step is to get a PRE. I am going to talk with my L tomorrow morning to see whether that is a hoop worth jumping through (and paying for).

It would be much easier if I could discuss this with my H, or if he would listen to what I say, accept that what I say is true, and have a rational discussion about it.

So tonight I asked him if he would consider going to counseling, not to talk about our M, but to help us to have a good co-parenting R going forward, for the sake of our kids. I highly doubt this is something he wants to do, but I am not sure he can say no given that he is supposedly looking out for the kids.

I had IC today, and my class (it's kind of a self-empowerment class for women in transition, and it has been awesome), and I realized some things I need to work on. My biggest block right now is fear and not trusting myself. I used to be very confident and had a great sense of self. It is still there, but has been so rejected and undermined by my H, slowly over the years, that I am afraid to take it back, because it is easier to believe the negative things he thinks about me than to risk believing in myself and then getting emotionally annihilated again.

^^^ That is where I need to go in IC. I am definitely a lot better than I was just after BD (or really, for many years before BD!), but still have a long way to go.

I don't think that my H is a terrible, bad person . . . I think that he probably was attracted to me because of my strong sense of self, but then it felt threatening to him so he tore it down. (FTR yes, I know I had my part in things and hurt him too.) It makes me sad because there is that side to him that I adore, and there was a part of our R that was so great. In fact, I am very nervous at the thought of counseling bc I don't want to have any tender feelings toward him again. Too hard.

In other news, we all passed our belt testing in TKD - woot!

I should go to sleep because I have to wake up early to clean up for the cleaning lady . . . how weird is that?

My H said he would be "happy to" go to counseling with me.

It scares the sh!t out of me.

I highly doubt this is something he wants to do, but I am not sure he can say no

Other than thoughts believed and the images in your head, where is the proof of past or future?

Melissa....
"I found that my unquestioned assumptioms where the cause of all wars and peace in my world"

Now one more:
Toughts have no power over us untill we believe them...

Now keep positive, no expectations and shif to work towards yourself...pray to your Higher Power saying something like: Lead me the way you would like me to go, I will show up and let the results not guide my actions...

HI Melissa
I read all of your posts. I seem to relate to your situation so much because it seems so similar to mine. I think of what you are going through often.
I am completely with you on the 50/50 custody and on the "it hurts if he's nice" "it hurt's if he's not"
You seem to be a very very strong person.

Originally Posted By: melissag

My H said he would be "happy to" go to counseling with me.

Good!! Now go research an awesome C that will be a good fit. You dont want someone who is going to just sit and stare at you all while you go at each other. Maybe start with your L and see if he has any recommendations for a C trained in this area.

Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23

Originally Posted By: melissag

My H said he would be "happy to" go to counseling with me.

It scares the sh!t out of me.

Why?

I can go into this with an open mind and be ready to listen, but I would be an idiot not to be scared of this.

Because I have been protecting myself emotionally by limiting my contact with my H and choosing to be with people who are safe for me. Going into a room with him feels like entering a lion's den.

Because I am afraid that if I even sit down in a room with my H, and worse, if he is actually well behaved (which I imagine he will be in front of a C), I will get sucked back in emotionally and it will send me backwards in trying to move on from him.

Because I am afraid to be vulnerable around him since he has recently taken things that I told him in vulnerability and thrown them in my face and used them against me.

Because if all I do is STFU and listen, as I have been doing the past 6 months, my needs will still never be met.

Because my H has been on a warpath and I am afraid that if I open up to him, he will use it against me.

The list goes on.

I am not sure, if we do this, what to do. Just talk about the issues at hand and not talk about anything emotional?

So much fear.

Originally Posted By: unbidden

So much fear.

Yep. And it doesn't help to just "let it go." It is well founded fear.

Not all fear is bad. Some fear is not only helpful but necessary for survival. If you see a grizzly bear running at you, you run like hell, right?

I can push through fear, but I don't want to be stupid.

Thanks, Gineen.

I won't predict the outcome. I will try to hope for the best while expecting nothing. But I do think I need to protect myself. Just not sure how to do that in counseling . . . I feel like that is where you need to drop that stuff.

Being vulnerable is scary - but is it necessary or stupid?

OK, 2x4 me if needed. Here is one thing I am concerned about.

We go to the counselor to talk about working through this parenting time issue. I talk to him about what I am thinking and all that, and then he just has all the info while not giving up anything himself. Kind of like showing all my cards and giving him all my power.

I don't want to make this into a game, but I distrust him with every cell in my body right now.

I am not assuming he is going to do anything, but so far, he HAS done things like this, so I have a reasonable fear of him doing it again.

I don't think I am explaining myself very well.

Yeah, my initial thought was, it would be fine if we had a "referee" of sorts; thus, the idea for the C.

I think it was the "I'd be happy to" response that freaked me out. I get suspicious when my H acts reasonable.

Dear Melissa,

Sweetie, put your dukes DOWN. You are wrecking your present, and planning on a lousy future.

I strongly suggest you re-read the brilliant & compassionate novella that Keep Going posted to you recently. I got so much out of it myself, that I copied it, for me.

Now, let's take one thing at a time and not pile on so much fear on top of anger and "history", (which is simply another way for you to keep checking the marital score card... & still trying to predict the next event, still trying to control or manipulate the outcome, which you cannot do.)

Originally Posted By: melissag

OK, 2x4 me if needed. Here is one thing I am concerned about.

We go to the counselor to talk about working through this parenting time issue. I talk to him about what I am thinking and all that, and then he just has all the info while not giving up anything himself. Kind of like showing all my cards and giving him all my power.

Wow...that is some MAJOR negative projecting here...^^^.

Melissa, truly this^^ does Not help you. It sets you both up for a lose lose scenario. That set up is the direct result of your projections, which you must stop asap.

Use the tools Keepgoing suggested and that STOP SIGN needs to be in your face often...OKAY?

1) He already knows what you think. You have "showed your cards," repeatedly. So You are not giving out any information that is not already out there.

2) Oh & btw, Both of you MUST communicate your wants to the court, anyhow.

3) Who said He'll remain silent? Who decided he will Not speak up to express his wishes? That fear makes no sense to me. I'd think he'd want his fatherly interests all on record.

4) Who decided that speaking up means you give away power? It's just the opposite, b/c I think silence means you are pursuing no plan, & therefore gaining nothing.

I don't want to make this into a game, but I distrust him with every cell in my body right now.

But You are making it into a game. To you, it's a high stakes game of poker, played with a cheater. That perception hurts all of you.

I know you distrust your h. I get that.

But this isn't about you trusting him with your heart, it's about sharing the children you two have. They love & need their dad, probably more than he realizes. Possibly more than you realize.

So stop making this about you losing power or showing your cards, and start making it only about how to more smoothly transition your children into their new situation.

Melissa, You are the sahm. He's the "rich jerky professional who left his family". He has more to lose than you do.

Hey Melissa! Here me out before you turn on your Maximum Resistors.

You both will lose time with your kids, b/c he won't come home to them at night, or have them all weekends and some holidays. I realize that was HIS choice. We all get that.

But he's still going to experience loss. So are you & So are your children. That stinks, but it is what it is.

While you'll lose time with your kids, you'll also gain some free time.

Melissa, ^^ that sentence is an example of me taking a negative side effect, and admitting that there is also a positive dimension to it. It's not delusional. It's accurate, and it helps ME to have a happier life & disposition. I lose no power in here; I gain perspective and a PMA.

You can mourn the loss of dreams and hopes, but you ought not to wallow in them, and then blame him for all the negative possibilities that may never even happen.

Let's engage the fear/resentment based emotions now, for a minute.

What harm will come to you by expressing your intentions and goals, in front of a c? (Isn't it exactly what you wanted?)

What cards do you have, that your h has not already seen?

What do you really fear?

My guess is that your real fears are

1) he'll seem like a more involved father than you think he is,

AND OR

2) you won't look like the loving mother you are.

If he seems like a more involved father, it could be because he IS becoming a better more involved father, which you agreed would be a very good thing.

If you come off as an unloving mother, well, then I guess we'll find out that deep down you really are a monster sociopath and it'll ALL be revealed soon...

in other words, this^^ piece, is about you, & your self esteem and some internal issues you have not come to terms with.

IMO, You are not at peace with yourself. That's not your h's fault.

But it is your responsibility to repair your self esteem, and it's your work to do.

You cannot refuse to talk to him in front of a c, and look reasonable. If I were you, I'd want to assist in the selection of that c, and move forward. Stop living in fear.

Thanks, 25. I need to reread that a few more times and let it sink in.

First off, the counseling was my idea, so of course I am going to do it. I am nervous, though. As soon as my H said yes, the image popped into my head of going to MC several years ago, and all that hurt came back in my mind, and all that desperate wishing that we could fix our M and be happy, and it was just a flood of emotion and it scared the crap out of me, and I wondered, what the heck did I get myself into??

I'm trying to walk a line here. The one where I am not a bitter, resentful, negative person who assumes the worst, yet I am not a doormat, vulnerable, pathetic person either. Right now, the space in there looks very small to me. Like a tightrope, really. My H has taught me that I cannot be vulnerable with him. And I still haven't figured out how to not be vulnerable other than to be closed off. I don't generally think of myself as a black & white kind of thinker, but this one is killing me.

I'm an emotional person. It's embarrassing sometimes. (I cry when I hear other people's children sing at a school concert, at Budweiser commercials with dogs and horses, ugh.) I do NOT want to cry in front of my H.

I don't fear that my H wants to become a more involved father. I fear that if he is genuine (or acting like it), it will hurt. A lot. And yeah, I will admit, it does really hurt me that I spent YEARS wishing he would step up as a father, and he decided to leave me to do it. I feel like I have made so much progress with myself and my self esteem and getting back to trusting myself, but I'm not there yet when it comes to my H. I am still unbelievably hurt . . . but I don't want him to see it. That's the card I don't want him to see.

I see the point about not predicting an outcome, or going in with dukes up. I really do. And I have been able to do that in other areas of my life, with other people. Open heart, open mind. I think it does mean taking a bit of a leap of faith, and being a little bit vulnerable.

And, IF my H wanted to work on our M, rather than divorce me, I would be willing to do that, 100%. But he is divorcing me, and recently, he has used me being vulnerable against me. So how do I protect myself against that, without being wary of the possible negative outcomes?

M,

Stinkin' thinkin' saps energy from your head, from your spirit, from your awesomeness...to what end?

Try to go to the first family counseling session with a beginner's mind. Yes, I would imagine that there may be some tension under the surface because of pent up anger, resentments, blaming, and emotions all over the place. This happens when two people, who have been fighting over a period of time, in the same room feeling dug in on their own POV, self-righteous indignation, and thinking that they have the "right" ideas of how co-parenting should look going forward in post-D life.

You can go in there with an open mind while still protecting your heart. That is a reasonable thing to do when you've been hurt by H countless times.

Before the S, you two did co-parent effectively, right? The only difference is the charged emotions and mistrust that is getting in the way of figuring out the BEST ways to co-parent together.
Which is why a neutral party can be a tremendous asset for the pair of you as you navigate through a "new normal" with separate households with school schedules, school vacations, fees, travel, sick times, emergencies, etc.

Trust the process with the family counseling. An excellent one will aid the process greatly. Do your homework and ask around for references.

You got this, baby!

Thanks, Wonka.

*In case anyone is wondering, I'm not really certifiably crazy - I am just not that good at figuring out where my feelings are coming from, so sometimes I go through a number of possibilities before figuring it out.

I am not sure that we co-parented effectively pre-BD. My H was very passive and didn't want to bother with most of the stuff involving the kids. So it was more like I parented and he went along with it. Well (based on what he has said to me), now the history in his mind is that he backed down and I took advantage of him, so he is not going to do that anymore.

I don't think that we will ever agree on some aspects of parenting, so they will just have to be different at at each home. I'm OK with that. He doesn't seem to be. I am hoping that he will simmer down a bit. I am hopeful that if we are able to talk calmly, he will see that I'm not trying to take the kids away or tell him how to parent or whatever it is in his head that he is fighting.

What I keep coming back to with the fear is that feeling of being small. I felt so small and insignificant in the M for such a long time. I have done so much work to rectify that and get myself back, yet somehow just the thought of sitting there with him makes me feel small all over again.

Yeah, 25 is right - that is my issue, and I need to keep working on that.

BTW, the ONLY thing I think is "right" about what co-parenting looks like in the future is that the kids are of the utmost importance. I am very fearful (based on my H's words and behavior lately, and even during the M) that this whole thing, to my H, is about him and not them. So yes, I think that does make me feel like I have to dig my heels in more, bc it's what I need to do to protect the kids.

M,

Okay...I'll bite.

BTW, the ONLY thing I think is "right" about what co-parenting looks like in the future is that the kids are of the utmost importance.

What does ^^ that look like to you? Flesh out the specifics here. Sometimes if you really contemplate about your own 'thoughts' as how the "future" would turn out, those will be valuable clues for you to bring to the family counseling sessions. Break down in specific action steps on how you can facilitate it and contribute toward that effort.

And don't forget to put in some requests to H with specific detail on what you'd like to see from him. He cannot read your mind either.

That way you won't end up disappointed "thinking" that H shoulda/woulda done this and that....make sense?

Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23

I think he is going through some sort of personal " get my balls back" phase ( not because you took them, just because that's how he feels).

I agree 100%. I think I need to try to ride it out without raising his hackles too much (since that will only egg him on), and hope he chills out. That's why, thus far, I have let him do his thing and have STFU even when my tongue was bleeding from biting it.

I think he will definitely get tired of being an a-hole. The problem is, his default then is P/A. For example, the "peace" email he sent me was supposedly his "nice," but it included a bunch of P/A stuff - accusations, insults, blame.

I sure hope that at some point he will figure this stuff out, but I highly doubt it, so I hope that at least at some point I won't be so emotional about it and I'll be able to roll my eyes and move on.

Quote:

You will agree on things, and others you will disagree on. And sometimes, if it doesn't harm the kids, you got to let him win one.

Yes. I truly haven't said boo about anything other than the field trip, because I felt very strongly about that. The boundary in my head is to STFU unless it's really important. I didn't used to do that. Perhaps at some point my H will recognize it.

It is amazing how much more sane I am after yoga and TKD (especially on non-H TKD nights.)

[quote=gabbysmom23
That was supposed to read " such a dick". Not " suck a dick"

Just in case you were wondering [/quote]

A TYPO, right . . . .

Originally Posted By: Wonka

What does ^^ that look like to you?

I don't know exactly what it looks like. I know that right now it involves making sure the children have access to both parents frequently (i.e., not having 5 or 6 nights in a row away from either parent- it's obvious my S7 can't handle that.) It means the kids go to counseling regularly and H and I listen to what their C tells us. It means putting their needs WRT to minimizing their pain in this whole sitch above our own. And it means putting aside our own grievances with each other for the benefit of the kids.

To me, it means trying what we think might work and then making tweaks (or bigger changes) if necessary to make sure the kids are doing OK. For example, my kids FaceTimed with H tonight. They talked to him for about 15 minutes and he had to go. My S7 kept calling him back and he did not answer. This was 90 minutes ago, and my S7 is still lying in bed awake crying for Daddy. So, if this kind of thing continues, maybe S7 needs to spend more time with H, or maybe he needs to FT with him earlier in the day, or maybe he shouldn't FT him at all. I guess I would want to have some input from a child psych on this stuff.

I want things to be flexible depending on what the kids need, I guess.

I also hope that if my kids see a C regularly, my H and I will get some good information to help us see the areas where we need to step up for the kids. I know that my H hurts D9's feelings a lot. My D9 asked for a sports bra the other day at Nordstrom so I got her one. (Her cousin is 11 and hasn't developed yet either but wears one.) She loves it and I think she feels really grown up wearing it. My H asked her why she was wearing that and said it was pointless. She told me that bothered her, and I said, "I'm sorry, D9." She said, "well, it's OK, I don't really expect much from Dad." Ugh. It's this kind of stuff that my H just doesn't see. I used to try to explain this stuff to him but he saw it as me criticizing him and he was very resentful about it. Perhaps if someone else points it out he might be more receptive. And, hell, I probably am doing some things that I don't realize, too.

I am rambling now, but my point is, I just want to make sure that the kids come first.

That's a good starting place for you.

Keep in mind that he might have the same goal but how he sees it may look very different. His view of the world is probably going to be different because his perspective is different. Doesn't mean it's wrong, just different and perhaps not as well-informed because you have been the primary care-taker.

Funny story-when our kids were small, H worked days and so I worked evenings. To this day he knows more about their favorite dinners than I do because he did a lot more dinners than I did. I will sometimes say to one or the other of the sons, "I didn't know you liked that," and I'll get a confused look back with "MOM! I love that."

So my perspective was very different from my H's. My knowledge of "favorite dinners" was very different from my H's.

You have your truth, your H has his, neither has to be wrong. His is just as real to him as yours is to you. It's what you each see from your vantage point with the limited knowledge you both have.

When you can relax away from the black-white, you can begin to realize that the truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

One last thought, take these counseling sessions one at a time. You've already jumped way into the future on what might happen.

What is your biggest fear about the counseling?

Quote:

You have your truth, your H has his, neither has to be wrong. His is just as real to him as yours is to you. It's what you each see from your vantage point with the limited knowledge you both have.

Yes, this is a tough one for me. From what he has told me so far, H's view on this whole thing is that the kids will be perfectly fine. Yeah, they might find it hard to adjust, but they will be happier because he will be happier. Also, from what he has told me, the kids don't cry to him much about this like they do to me.

So, I have the tendency to go into things with this background and already discrediting H's view. I will need to reread this and remind myself to be open and listen and be accepting that his reality is his reality. And if he continues to say things like "the kids will be happy if I am happy," hopefully the C will inject a little reality there.

Quote:

What is your biggest fear about the counseling?

I am still thinking on this one, but I think it is that feeling I had when we were in MC a few years ago (and during much of the M) . . . feeling small and insignificant.

I hope your kids will be happy, that would be the goal right.

I believe working through problems is the best alternative to D.

I believe sometimes that's not possible.

I believe, in general, that kids benefit from parents who are ... happy, for lack of a better word. (It's early still)

Kids can face many difficult things as they grow up. We know D can be a huge negative influence.

Knowing that, the best we can do is accept the situation as it is and work really hard to mitigate that negative influence. You have made the first move.

You can do this.

Oof.

So my H asked if I wanted to find someone (counselor wise) or if he should. I said I can get some recommendations. He said, "OK, I've asked for recommendations from my lawyer. You can get some recommendations and we will see if any overlap."

A while later, he sent me the name of someone his L recommended. It's a woman who is a CFI and does the parenting classes that are required by the court in every D case in our county. I realized that we are not on the same page here (shocking, right?)

M: Thanks for forwarding the info from your lawyer. I want to make sure we are on the same page with this. What I had in mind was not someone who will tell us what to do with our kids, but who will help us to cut through the BS so that we can have rational, respectful discussions about these things. I think that would help make this whole process a lot less contentious and less expensive to boot. Let me know your thoughts.

H: My request to my lawyer was for a counselor "to try to improve our co-parenting relationship." [NAME] was her recommendation. You've made it clear that all legal issues are to be run through your lawyers so that's how we'll handle that. My goal here is to try to best manage the co-parenting relationship in light of the animosity created by that process.

AAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Someday, will I look back at this and laugh??

Maybe someone else can read this in a different way. I see a lot of P/A in there, and blame, and he is setting it up so that he looks like a reasonable person without having to DO anything. He has also set it up so that I am cornered in my response. And, he ignored what I said to boot.

I am leaning toward responding by more or less repeating (but maybe in a different way so it doesn't come across as smart ass) what I said before, and asking directly if he is willing to do that, rather than asking for his thoughts.

Any insight or advice would be appreciated.

Also, me suggesting counseling was in response to his "Peace" email where he practically begged me to talk about the parenting time issue with him.

So confused.

Thanks, Gabby. The problem with the person he suggested is that she is a person who will say things like, "you should make the goodbye with the children short and sweet," or, "it will confuse the kids if you do things as a family" or whatever. (I am making those things up, just trying to get the gist of it across.) Which is great at some point. But right now we can't even agree on a parenting plan at all.

I didn't have a problem that he suggested her, I just realized that he misunderstood what I had in mind when I suggested counseling in the first place. Which is why I sent what I thought was a reasonably nice text clarifying. What I want to do is not to have someone help us with the "rules" of co-parenting, but to help us to communicate better. My H recently sent me a long email asking for peace. He wanted me to talk to him about the parenting time, and see if we can agree. He said we should at least give it a try.

My suggestion of counseling was my response to that ^^^ request.

Am I reading what he wrote incorrectly?

I don't feel like there is any answer I can give other than agreeing with him.

Melissa,

Forgive me for chiming in before reading all of your threads, although I have read enough to feel pretty up to speed for now...

Gabbysmom is right. NOTHING your H does right now is going to be right for you.

And my honest opinion (based on what I have read already) is that that has pretty much always been the case, at least when it comes to your children.

I didn't really see much PA stuff in his response to you. I saw him clarifying what you said you wanted.

I also think you are making major assumptions about the counselor that he has suggested (although he apparantly has suggested comparing lists like Gabbysmom did).

Just because she teaches the coparenting class required by law doesn't mean that is all she does.

And those classes are meant to teach you how to be able to communicate effectivly as coparents, not "do this" "don't do that".

Reality is, he is going to parent differently than you. You are not one in the same person. He is going to allow different things than you will. Different bed times, different chore expectations, etc...

That is something that will happen, married or not.

You are going to have to learn to let go of some of the control because that is part of what got you (and most of us here) into this situation in the first place.

I was reading the other day about making relationships better, because I don't want to end up back here again and we can all use reminders that will help to keep our relationships happy and healthy...

It was a blog post from a woman who wanted to leave her husband.

She went to her parents. Her mother said she would support her AFTER she did one thing...

She had her write a list of all of the husbands faults.

She then had her write a list of her reactions to all of those faults.

The mother then sent the woman home with the list of her reactions, and told her to spend 24 hours reflecting on them, and to then make her final decision.

The woman did that, prayed, thought, cried and realized that her reactions were actually worse than most of his faults (her reasons for leaving).

She chose not to leave her marriage and began working on herself.

In order to improve any relationship, we have to be willing to look at ourselves first.

Just some food for thought...

Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23

How do you know this about the counselor he chose?!

Because I know who she is, I read her CV and I looked at her website.

Anyway. I texted him back:

M: My understanding is that [NAME] is more of a parenting coach type person. I think that would be helpful in the future. My suggestion of counseling right now was in response to your �Peace� email where you asked me to talk with you about the parenting time issue. I would also like peace, and I think it could be beneficial if we could discuss parenting time in addition to whatever other issues come up. However, it seems that things between us have deteriorated to a point where this doesn�t seem possible. I fear that trying to discuss things on our own will do more harm than good. My hope is that a counselor can help facilitate a more productive conversation. I think that understanding each other and learning to communicate in a more productive manner will greatly benefit the kids and will help us to get through all of this as well. Let me know if you are willing to do this.

H: I appreciate you responding to my email. I am, perhaps, not clear on the difference between a parenting coach and one who facilitates the type of communication you're looking for, so why don't you find someone and I am happy to talk to him or her. I will tell you that a significant portion of my frustration here has been my inability to talk to you directly and openly. However, I respect your desire to not communicate directly and If you feel it is necessary to use a counselor to attempt that conversation, let's proceed in that fashion.

I just heard the angels singing Hallelujah.

I agree with, GM.

If you're going to have expectations about things, you should let him know what those are.

If this person is a counselor just because she does parenting classes doesn't mean she can't be effective in working with you and H.

Why were the angels singing?

M,

I would like to assist here in dissecting the email/text responses with the goal of understanding how you can influence interactions with H that can result in a more positive flow of communication. I am not saying you're wrong at all. My goal is to get you to see how it looks to an outsider like me who isn't invested in your sitch.

M: Thanks for forwarding the info from your lawyer. I want to make sure we are on the same page with this. What I had in mind was not someone who will tell us what to do with our kids [this sounded critical and adversarial...what an opening!for me, it'd put me on the defensive big time, but who will help us to cut through the BS so that we can have rational, respectful discussions about these things the explict implication is that H is incapable of having a rational, respectful discussions and you think he BSes...wow...how is this helpful in inviting cooperation from H? . I think that would help make this whole process a lot less contentious and less expensive to boot why would you want to choose these explosive words...looks like you had your dukes up FIRST! Why try for a more conciliatory tone/approach. Let me know your thoughts.

H: My request to my lawyer was for a counselor "to try to improve our co-parenting relationship." [NAME] was her recommendation. You've made it clear that all legal issues are to be run through your lawyers so that's how we'll handle that. My goal here is to try to best manage the co-parenting relationship in light of the animosity created by that process.

What's so awful about H's response here? I can see how he is trying his darned best, according to his own expectation, to improve your co-parenting relationship.

Now...with the practice dissection over, what I'd like for you to do is re-work your first response with 20/20 hindsight. How would you have made the below text more conciliatory? What ways do you see that it can be improved on?

Original text:

M: Thanks for forwarding the info from your lawyer. I want to make sure we are on the same page with this. What I had in mind was not someone who will tell us what to do with our kids, but who will help us to cut through the BS so that we can have rational, respectful discussions about these things. I think that would help make this whole process a lot less contentious and less expensive to boot. Let me know your thoughts.

Originally Posted By: labug

Why were the angels singing?

Because, for the first time in a while, I have hope that we can make things better. Not in our M, but at least going forward with co parenting.

Now comes the tricky part - having hope without expectations.

Mel, look deeper.

I'm going to ask a question that will sting.

Are you happy because the 2 of you were able to work through something and come to middle ground or because you got what you wanted?

From the outside it appears that after asking for his input you rejected out of hand his suggestion without even talking to the person to find out what he/she could do.

Is this a repeat of old patterns in your R?

Let go of some of that control, girl. Share the load.

I already considered that, bug. No, I am not happy that I "got what I wanted."

Let's actually look at my sitch. Do you think I have once, in the past six months, gotten what I wanted?

Here's where I am coming from. I hate the fact that I cannot have a decent convo with my H. But he was so self serving and so manipulative and accusatory, and so reactive, that I had to set boundaries to protect myself. The boundaries were (a) I don't respond to disrespectful communications; and (b) all D matters go through the Ls. This is not something I would have ever wanted, but I felt it was necessary. The problem is, this has resulted in little to no communication at all, and has made my H very angry, which results in me having to further protect my boundaries, etc. It's a never-ending cycle that just continues to add layers and layers of hurt, anger, etc to an already difficult sitch.

(I know, I know, who cares if H is angry, that's his problem, etc. But it becomes my problem when it affects our R in a way that is damaging to the kids, as well as causing us unnecessary trauma and expense.)

I am hopeful that, since my H is willing to go to counseling, we can break that negative cycle.

That ^^^ is why I am happy.

I don't understand why you all are so sure that I rejected H's proposed C out of hand and without knowing anything about her. As I said, I read her CV and visited her website, as well as reading the online reviews from former patients. She isn't the kind of C I had in mind, when I suggested C. My "rejection" of her (which wasn't really a rejection, since, as I told H, I think she might be useful at some point in this process as well) was not based on the fact that H (H's lawyer) suggested her. Had my C suggested her, I would have said the same thing - that's not really the kind of C I am looking for.

What is a repeat of the pattern in our M is the way we get into a negative cycle and neither of us would do anything to break it. We just waited for the other one to do something and blamed it on each other.

I felt that I took a step - asking my H to go to counseling - to break that cycle. It would be far easier for me to continue to ignore him.

Melissa,

I applaud the positive interaction in regards to the children. Co-parenting is extremely hard in the best of situations and right now yours is...well....not the best. I do agree with Wonka about your wording, but at the same time you can't be second guessing the possible underlining perspective of what was said.

As for the counselor....My 2 cents. Research until you have three perspective choices. Send their info to your husband and let him choose one out of the three. That way you both have a say in the process, both of your expectations in a counselor can be respected, and it is a co-choice. However it works out....The kids are #1 and this is one item that needs you both working together on.

Originally Posted By: melissag

I already considered that, bug. No, I am not happy that I "got what I wanted."

I'm glad you considered it.

Quote:

Let's actually look at my sitch. Do you think I have once, in the past six months, gotten what I wanted?

I have looked at your sitch, I've been reading from the beginning. I'm not talking about history, I want to stay with this instance and go forward.

Quote:

I am hopeful that, since my H is willing to go to counseling, we can break that negative cycle.

That ^^^ is why I am happy.

I, too am hopeful.

Quote:

I don't understand why you all are so sure that I rejected H's proposed C out of hand and without knowing anything about her.

Sometimes people on the outside of the situation can give you valuable objective observations. It took me a long time to take these insights without feeling defensive or angry.

Quote:

As I said, I read her CV and visited her website, as well as reading the online reviews from former patients. She isn't the kind of C I had in mind, when I suggested C. My "rejection" of her (which wasn't really a rejection, since, as I told H, I think she might be useful at some point in this process as well) was not based on the fact that H (H's lawyer) suggested her. Had my C suggested her, I would have said the same thing - that's not really the kind of C I am looking for.

I think we're (I'm) confused about why she wouldn't work for you. Had you picked up the phone, told her what you wanted and she had said "Nah, I'm not your person." Bingo! But you might have found that she was just what you needed. Or you and H could have had a appt and decided after that. I've had a couple of ICs that after a couple of appts, I've known weren't right for me.

I'm only suggesting a different approach, one that gives you both somewhat equal parenting footing and moves you closer to common ground not unlike what I suggested in the field trip incident.

Quote:

What is a repeat of the pattern in our M is the way we get into a negative cycle and neither of us would do anything to break it. We just waited for the other one to do something and blamed it on each other.

How did you get into those cycles?

What are your H's biggest complaints around parenting?

Quote:

I felt that I took a step - asking my H to go to counseling - to break that cycle. It would be far easier for me to continue to ignore him.

Yes, and I applaud you. I also know this counseling is creating fear and we often times let that fear control us, so we become even more controlling. I'm just saying let the fear go. This is not a perfect process.

In an earlier post I suggested that if you have expectations about something you present as a choice to your H that you let him know what those expectations are so he's not surprised or feeling like "here we are again, nothing I suggest with the kids is right."

In this instance you could have said, "I want only a PhD counselor, in practice at least 10 years, who works with kids and parents and has experience with D." Or whatever...

Springing unstated expectations on people after the fact is unfair whether it's your STBX, a friend, your kids.

Here's the truth about these things, you'll get other opportunities.

M, your H told you exactly why he's acting the way he's been acting lately:

"I will tell you that a significant portion of my frustration here has been my inability to talk to you directly and openly."

That DOES sound extremely frustrating, and to someone who ISN'T actively working on himself, that type of a relationship environment is going to very likely elicit an unpleasant demeanor towards you.

No, it may not be rational. No, it may not be fair. No, it may not be karmicly balanced, but THAT'S the "why".

All the best,

-PM

PM, you are exactly right. And I get it why he is frustrated. I would be, too. (Note -that doesn't mean I think that I am in the wrong here - I don't think I need to put his need to communicate over my need to be free of his spew.)

The problem as of late has been that if I do talk to my H, he frequently rejects/invalidates what I say, or uses it to manipulate me, or twists it to prove he is a victim and I am evil.

But if I don't talk to my H, then he makes up stories in his head (of course always with the most negative slant), lashes out at me for things I didn't even do or think, and blames me for all of it.

I am hoping that talking with a counselor present will help. Fingers crossed.

Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23

Have you ever said " I find it hard to communicate with you because you frequently reject and invalidate what I say"?

Ya know, the direct approach?

I spent years saying this to him.

Oh M-this is so hard and frustrating. I spent the weekend with friends and had fun with their incredible family and pangs of heartache knowing that mine may never be like that again.

I agree with PM. Your H told you his frustrations directly. I can imagine you've spent years telling him how you felt and he didn't care/understand. I don't know how you get past that. This is a dynamic that you guys have probably always struggled with. I wish I could help and offer you advice. Instead just know that I'm thinking of you.

Well, I'll acknowledge that I have critiqued my H's communication style in the heat of the moment and probably in a more defensive manner many times.

But I have also tried to discuss with him calmly.

My H has never before expressed frustration that he couldn't talk with me directly and openly. I was never inaccessible to him before BD. If he wanted to talk directly and openly I was always game.

His response when I tried to talk with him about these things?

I begged - BEGGED him on so many occasions to please let me have feelings. To acknowledge that my feelings were valid because I have them.

Well, he told me, unapologetically, that when I had a complaint about something, he would evaluate it and decide whether it was valid, or if I had a "right" to complain about it.

I asked him to please stop saying "always" and "never," and to stop exaggerating things because it was very hurtful. He told me that was just the way he expressed himself and to stop criticizing him.

I asked him to please stop extrapolating from what I said and take my words at face value. He said that he has to extrapolate - that's a part of understanding what's going on.

And the list goes on.

Since BD, no, I have not tried to talk with him about this. At first, I was LRTing, so i never brought up anything about my own feelings. At this point, I feel like most of what I say - even though I still don't talk about my feelings, criticize him, or complain about anything - is met with anger, so I feel like it's just a bad idea to bring up anything like that right now. At this point, I feel like I am just trying to avoid unpleasant interactions.

M,

Checking in on you, honey. How have you been lately?

Melissa

The biggest problem and the main problem that I get from your situation its something called "communication"
I might be wrong but I feel when you both talk its basically an exchange of judgements and pushing to be "right" , this is not a hard thing to change, you can actually start working on that and see if maybe thats the issue in your R with your H, what do you think about what I said?

Originally Posted By: gabbysmom23

How do you know this about the counselor he chose?!

You have a lot of preconceived notions about things. Interview her first. Call her or email her . If then she is not what you are looking for, you can say " I don't really think she is the best choice for our goal "

And, btw, who says she cannot vary her approach at all?

I bet she's not a one trick pony, and she's surely Not a mind reader.

All the counselors I know, WANT input from their clients about what each party involved, wants. Communicate with each potential counselor.

I think you may be reading what he wrote incorrectly. I think he has the same goal as you do. You just automatically assumed before talking to the C that she wasn't on the same track as you guys.

Slow down. He was giving a suggestion, he didn't say you had to chose her.

Why don't you suggest you guys pick a few, agree on a few questions you want to ask him/her to determine the right fit?

Good ideas^^^

Originally Posted By: Wonka

M,

Checking in on you, honey. How have you been lately?

Hi Wonka, thanks for checking in on me!

I have been sooooooo ridiculously busy lately. With the kids of course - that's the good part. And then all the crap I have to do for the D. Producing all sorts of documents, all the financial info, ugggghhh. Trying to find a C for my kiddos, trying to research PREs in case it gets to that, trying to find a C for me and H to go to. Exercise and GAL and TKD on top of all that, and I have zero time to declutter my closets which has been on my to-do list for months now.

I'm kind of disappointed by the way my H is acting lately - I finally figured out the not so mysterious reason that he sends me cordial texts and then acts like a jerk to my face. Duh, M. He's not stupid - everything in writing is cordial. I don't know if he just despises me so much that he can't bring himself to look at me, or if he is trying to punish me by being a jerk (and does it really matter?), but surely my kids notice - it has happened every time we have seen each other for several weeks now. I just act polite and smile and let him wallow in his own misery. A friend of mine just got promoted in TKD so she is now in my class, which makes it more fun for me. I am also chatting more with another woman I train with, so that has been fun. It also means I get paired up with my H less frequently which is a relief.

I forget whether I posted this update here, but I realized several weeks ago that the text-fest with the married woman from H's gym (remember the 2000 texts in 5 weeks?) ended somewhat abruptly just after I filed, and right around when H started acting like a real jerk. He no longer seems like the happiest he has ever been in his life. Doubtful that it's a coincidence. I am getting the feeling that my R with my H is going to be the best when he is dating someone. Then his self esteem is getting propped up elsewhere and he doesn't have to look to me to blame for his unhappiness.

Also I got his financial statement and it is full of BS - basically trying to deflate his income and inflate his expenses I guess so he can pay me less. Some of it is shady (using his 2012 income which is a full six figures less than 2013) and some of it is just straight up lies - like he spends $500/month on clothes and shoes for the kids. He has bought them clothes precisely one time in the past decade. Ugh.

So I guess he is going to be a weasel and play games with all of this. It makes me so ill. On the plus side, it is helping me to detach more.

I have been working on getting my RE broker's license and law license reinstated and getting caught up with what's new in the field. I am not actively looking for a job but I am getting a tiny bit excited at the thought of finding something that I enjoy doing and making some of my own money. Ideally, I want to do something real estate related that enables me to work PT on a very flexible schedule so I can be there for my kids. I hope that's not too greedy and I can actually make it happen.

I am also looking into refinancing the house. I looked around a bit at rents and they are just crazy high right now - if I get a chunk in the D settlement that I can put into the house and refi, I will probably be paying less than I would to rent a smaller/older house in my neighborhood. I need to see how the numbers stack up . . . I would really like to stay here to minimize the disruption to my kids, but I don't want to be house poor to do it.

It feels kind of good to be moving forward with things, even though they are things I didn't necessarily want to do and certainly didn't plan on. Now if we could only put some sort of parenting plan in place, even temporarily, so I can plan more than three days in advance . . . .

I am trying really hard to get my kids into C - my D9 doesn't say much and claims to feel really fine with how things are, so that kind of scares me. And my S7 is very clingy and his teachers say he has been clingy and preoccupied at school.

I am looking forward to our beach trip - it will be really nice just to enjoy the kids and relax. I am hoping that there is nothing D-related that needs to be addressed right away (after our first court appearance on Weds.), because I would really like to tell my L and my H that I plan to enjoy my time with the kids and take a break from D stuff while we are out of town.

Baseball is coming (YAY!), the days are getting longer (YAY again), the weather is getting warmer. My new car should be here right when the weather gets really nice, and I am looking forward to that. I am beginning to feel better about my future, and even excited about some things, even though they don't include my H.

So that's my update!

Great update M! How weird to face the person you committed your life to across a courtroom. How sad for everyone.

You sound busy, but happier. I can relate to the cleaning thing. It feels so good to get rid of the clutter! I agree about keeping the home if possible. While a part of me would want to 'start over' I can also see so much less trauma to the kids if they keep some things the same. Esp the home they've grown up in. I swear that's why H hasn't divorced me yet...we'd have to sell the home and it would devastate the kids.

Keep up the good work, M!

Hey Melissa!

Sorry I've been MIA - work, issues with kids and the estate have had me constantly busy offline. I didn't mean to stray for so long.

I know how hard this part of the process is. All I can offer is a cyber hug and the notion that it does get better. Right now he's posturing for battle (real or imaginary) and until he no longer feels the need to act out, you'll just have to leave him be and keep your eyes on your own road without giving in to his distractions.

Funny you mention the married woman... I have a friend who was married a really long time and she and her H divorced several years ago due to his chronic infidelity. She said she could always tell when George was single again, because he started picking fights with her and then finally escalated to trying to get her to try again. BUT when he's in a R, he's happy and kind and pretty much leaves her alone. Their youngest is now 19 and he has no real reason to contact her. They split amicably, share holidays with their new granddaughter, and just generally live comfortably. So I've found it interesting that she knows that much about her XH to figure out his patterns. You might be figuring them out subconsciously too.

Hope you're able to pull off the refi!

Now, go have a fabulous time at the beach, knowing that the home opener is but a week away. Yippee!

Betsey

What's going on Mel? How are you holding up?

Wow. Haven't checked here in awhile; this will be long:
Hi, Melissa.

I read your sitch and my heart hurts; your h is being such a dick right now. Expect this to get worse as your case proceeds.
Perfectly normal when THEY realize that YOU realize that THEY will not be the only one calling the shots here.
Heh�.it blows their little minds when we finally stand up for ourselves.

My first h, married for 15 plus years, tried the old song and dance about how "we don't need to involve any L's, we'll just save $$$ and do this ourselves�.after all, we're both reasonable adults�.this will be amicable, uncontested�"

LoL!!! Right�..That is just code for "time to start hiding assets, income, and quickly cut the best deal for myself�etc�etc.." That is the reason he is trying to push you to move things along, quickly.
Well, I lawyered up immediately and I felt so much better just knowing that I wasn't so helpless after all. I needed that so much because I was so hurt, confused, just spinning! I needed to be tethered to reality.

I am so glad you made a decisive move for yourself to contest his ridiculous offer. And it does kinda matter who files first because that can give the advantage of being the one to set the initial court date, which in turn gives the advantage of the rest of the timeline right up to the finalization. "He who files first files best" is my mantra.

Also, as you now know, it threw your h off balance, which is a very good thing. Exhibit A: those nasty, snarky emails he sends are gold, keep every single communication. You will probably be getting more of those gems. They always show the true colors and also can be invaluable as evidence later on.

Quite a few years ago, a poster here actually told me to just DELETE any emails that upset me! Well, I guess you know how remarkably bad that advice was.
Keep everything! Texts, emails, notes, letters�.EVERYTHING!

You need to stop responding to most of them though.This sword cuts both ways and the last thing you need to be doing right now is giving HIM any more ammo to use by responding defensively, emotionally, angrily, etc. Stop trying to explain your decisions. I know how much this hurts, but just don't!

When you do respond, stop defending yourself. Keep your responses very, very short and on point; no editorializing. Leave emotion out of it, no matter how pissy he gets, no matter how much he lies, no matter how much he tries to make you feel guilty, no matter how unreasonable he gets.
I know it hurts when they revise marital history, tell you how "happy, happy, happy" they are. Just laugh to yourself, if you can, about the absurdity of his attitude and let it roll off your back. This is difficult; you can do this.

You are getting great advice. The only thing I would add is that you stop giving him any more financial records, or any other info he requests from you that may help HIS position. Just direct him to have his L contact your L with any questions he may have.
Do not sit down with h to discuss ANYTHING other than kid schedules and such. You're not fooled by his phony, nicey-nice act.

You absolutely need to stop tipping your hand to him. I cannot stress how important this is. Just because he asks you for something, doesn't mean he gets it!

He "wants to be friends�" That is hilarious. He is stunned that you can't trust him? I damn near piss myself when I hear sh!t like that. They really are deluded, aren't they?
My first h had the misfortune of chiding me for not trusting him. I shot back, "Yeah�I can really trust a man who walks out on me�" The look on his face was epic. A truth dart had hit a bullseye.

Also, I see some advice here pertaining to the cost of the L's. Do not cut corners here by trying to do some things yourself; it can come back to bite you. Run it by your L. Now is not the time to be penny-wise and pound-foolish.
And stop worrying about "being nice." You are way past that now and that is a good thing. Trying to "be nice" shows weakness, something he thought he could count on. Minimally polite is good enough.

You're doing great; stay strong. You got this.