http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...620#Post2434620I think today I have officially surrended. I am struggling with acceptance of this situation and letting go of my wife. I don't think there is a chance of R. She is so closed to the idea.
The vacillating back and forth between the hope and the letting go/acceptance of divorce is killing me. I am not sure if it is possible to have both at the same time. But if it is, I don't seem to have the capacity to do it.
I am at the same point my brother.
I am too, and its a horrible feeling.
I'm not sure I have been at this long enough to give you any advice. And even though it's only been a few months for me I sometimes struggle with the urge to just throw up my hands and walk away.
I'm pretty sure that would be much easier in most cases. But I also want to give my marriage every opportunity to succeed. I know that I can still see hope in my sitch but without progress there will undoubtedly come a time when I won't be able to.
It is up to each of us to decide when we reach that point. Nobody can make that decision for us. All we can do is encourage each other to give it our all for as long as we can, and if the time comes to let go if the rope, to be supportive in that regard as well.
Tough.. here is what I have discovered recently. For me it is possible to let go and still have hope because I have completely changed what I am hoping for. At first I was hoping for a R of my marriage. Now I do not want that at all. My marriage, I can now see, was cr@p. What I now hope us that ny h will emerge from whatever he is going through as a whole healthy person. I hope I will have an opportunity to get to know that person. Maybe that will be a person I can build a new relationship with. At the least I hope that will be a persOn I can coparent successfully with.
What I an letting go of are any expectations of h or my marriage. It is honestly very freeing. When you first come on here you are told you are getting the gift of time. This us so true. I have had 6 months to start figuring out who I am and who I want to be with or without h.
Only you can decide what steps to take when letting go. Right now I am choosing to deal with whatever h throws at me because I am not ready to split time with my s.
When you think of letting go what does that mean to you?
I am letting go of the concept of R and hopefully at the same time any controlling type behavior I might be utilizing. I am letting go of allowing my wife's emotional state affect mine.
I went to the bank today to check on getting a loan. This loan will ease the financial burden and make a physical separation more feasible.
I shared with her my newest idea of custody, which is our one main sticking point to separating physically. I had been holding that back as for myself, it was an admission the M was over and could possibly accelerate our divorce (eg. having a solution for one of the main sticking points rather then being stuck in limbo as we couldn't figure out a solution).
Tough.. here is what I have discovered recently. For me it is possible to let go and still have hope because I have completely changed what I am hoping for. At first I was hoping for a R of my marriage. Now I do not want that at all. My marriage, I can now see, was cr@p. What I now hope us that ny h will emerge from whatever he is going through as a whole healthy person. I hope I will have an opportunity to get to know that person. Maybe that will be a person I can build a new relationship with. At the least I hope that will be a persOn I can coparent successfully with.
^^^Agree with this! I still get frustrated and vent like I did earlier a bit in my own thread but felt better to get it out and past it!
The old marriage is dead. Took me a while to realize this and really start detaching. Once I really started to detach and work on myself through GAL I realized how much better a man, father and husband I can be! I started feeling better about myself and also strengthened my relationship with my kids.
What I have realized is I am the one progressing yet she is still hindered by the past. The past is what keeps that wall up. As much as she wanted change....I am changing but she is in a stagnant limbo with no progression....just wallowing in what she wants. That's the whole point of DB right? Work on you...you can't fix them but your changes are for you and the way you affect and respond to those around you.
Once you get to this state and realize your full potential and what you have to offer, you realize you have choices too!
We all want our M to work; rather we want a new and better R than before....but what if it doesn't happen? You learn from your mistakes; consider it a life lesson and move forward.
I love my wife very much and would rather spend my life with her but, and I would never tell her this, she can either start growing with me and we both learn and benefit from this opportunity life has given us for a new and better M, or, I willtake the new me and make some other lucky lady a very good husband at my wife's expense!
Just my $.02! Take it for what its worth!
Azagtoth
I learned today, which I find ironic after yesterdays good progress on detaching, that my wife has pulled the trigger on borrowing money from her mom....to put her lawyer on retainer and start divorce proceedings.
I find myself more accepting of this situation these past couple of days. In some respects I feel a sense of relief. Perhaps my wife is right and we shouldn't stayed married.
We did get married at a young age, perhaps we wouldn't have stayed together if we didn't have children. When I think about it, I don't think I really ENJOY spending time with her. Whether that is from past issues/unresolved issues spilling over into the present or whether we just never really clicked I do not know.
If it is the former, without her being willing to work on things the point is moot. If the latter, then perhaps all the work in the world will just make us at best, ok in a relationship. Maybe she has infected me with her thinking but I am not sure 'ok' is the kind of relationship one should have.
It is of course still painful, but I keep telling myself that she is allowed to make her own decisions, even if I think they are incorrect. But like I said, now I am even questioning myself as to whether she is correct or incorrect in her beliefs.
I do now that even with my limited success of detaching and GAL, that living with her is pretty tense most of the time. She is borrowing money from her mom for a lawyer. I am trying to talk her into a legal separation primarily because I figure it will save us about $4500 per year just in income tax.
The separation agreement can encompass the two main details of a divorce, finances and custody. It can then be used as the framework for a divorce later on, when needed. I think within the next two weeks or so some direction will be decided upon.
I think/hope she will agree with me on the 'nesting' concept. She will stay with the kids at our house 'x' days while I stay at my dads, then I come to the house and stay with the kids 'x' days while she stays at her moms. That way we avoid the expense of apartments and it is more stable for the children.
Anyway, just an update.
Tonight we talked more about divorce. A follow up from a previous conversation. We discussed the financial benefits of legal separation. She needs to consult a lawyer to see if we are missing anything important.
Wasn't too painful. I wonder how it all went wrong, this marriage on the road to divorce. I have my ideas, I wonder about hers. Perhaps I will ask. Now that we are freely talking about divorce and it isn't so painful for me, she seems to be more relaxed.
I get the impression she feels like she is making progress of some sort, not stuck so much in limbo. I think that feeling was frustrating for her and add to that an almost allergic reaction to anything that was me. It literally was at a point that no matter what I did/didn't do, I think it was annoying to her.
I think she is at the point where all her problems, emotions, have me at the black center, the heart of all her issues. Like I am the overwhelming source of her problems and if she can just get rid of me then her life will be perfect.
I surmise that comes about from us living in the same house these last five months. I have given her space, lots of space, all the space I think I could have, but it isn't enough to surmount that feeling of hers.
Perhaps there is hope when the divorce or separation starts, when we have physical distance between us and limited exposure...perhaps then she will have enough space and I will in essence seem less evil.
Wow, what a weekend. Turns out I am diabetic...had no clue. Was with my 18 year old son saturday and started slurring my words and having difficulty both driving and walking. Had my son drive us home at which point I passed out in the car.
Got home, tried to eat lunch, passed out in my chair. At that time my WAW got home and argued/insisted I go to the hospital. They thought I was having a stroke, just turns out my sugar level was 466 when it is supposed to be below 120. Doctors tell me I could have slipped into a coma and possibly died.
Don't think it had much effect on my marital situation all though pretty sure it shook up the wife. Hopefully i can learn from this and be the better man for it.
hmmm, perhaps this post will show up twice....says i posted this morning but not showing. Anyway, little update.
So Saturday I start stumbling around and slurring my words. Older kids are freaking out telling me i need to go to hospital but i am arguing with them. Decide I just need a nap....wife comes home, tries to wake me up, second time is successful, takes me to ER. Turns out I am diabetic. What a great suprise!
Better than the diabetic coma/death I could have entered without their intervention. Wife hung with me at the hospital most of Saturday and then some Sunday when I was released. She even checked up on me via a phone call and several texts during the day. Most we have communicated about 'non essentials' in the past few weeks.
Don't thing it changes the situation at all but I did get to sleep the whole weekend! Part of me wishes it would have given her a wake up call but I am ruthlessly squashing that idea. Suprise suprise that a LBS would try to take a near death experience and twist it into some sort of R situation
I wonder though how much that has affected my attitude and actions these last few months. I know I feel a hell of a lot better and am not so bitter/angry feeling. Perhaps all LBS aught to get their blood checked....hell, send in the WAS as well.
Well we had an R talk. Not sure who brought it up. But it was a good 20 minutes or so of clearing the air. Things have changed a little between us since my stay in the hospital. I had requested earlier of her a list of things she may see in me that she saw as character defects. This list I explained to her would be shared with my counselor.
I don' know about you folks but I have had conversations before with people and then later remembered a detail that was monstrously important that I forgot to bring up. This list from her, as she is the one who knows me best, I thought would be a useful tool. Eg. perhaps she saw things that would never occur to me to bring up in counseling.
At first she refused. Stated that that wasn't how counseling was supposed to work. I told her it was my counseling and it came down to me asking her for help. She refused. However, after my stay in the hospital, she did come up with a small list, some things i knew, some things hadn't occured to me.
I don't know how much I have detached, how much I have GAL, how much I have worked on me/changed in me. I do know I have made efforts, done 180's, things that haven't appeared to have an affect. It seems like while I believe in the basics of DB'ing, the wall around my wife is so tall and strong that they just aren't working.
I continue to work on me but I get absolutely no input, no feedback, no notice from my wife. I think I could continue to do db'ing to the letter and it wouldn't make a difference. For good or for bad, I am modifying my behavior to stray from the db path. It is possible that many have felt this way before and because they stray, they fail.
But on the other hand, I am sure that there have been a lot of db'ers that followed the book to the letter and the situation didn't work out. I surrended a couple of weeks ago to the fact that this marriage cannot be saved. My wife is too closed minded to the idea of R.
So it boils down to, 'what do i have to lose'. Against, 'continue to do db'ing, all through the process of divorce, and maybe it will work, maybe it wont'. My actions got my marriage into this situation, so one could argue that my own advice shouldn't be followed if I want the M to succeed. However, my advice to myself now is modified by several self help books, individual counseling, going back to AA meetings, the DB book, and all the wonderful stuff I read on these forums.
Maybe it is a control issue, me not being able to just let stuff be, to see how it will work out by itself. Maybe it is just too important of an issue to me to just let go and see what happens.
I know I agree with a lot of the tenants of the DB book. I know I also don't agree with some of them as well. I don't really know the answers but I think I would feel better if the marriage fails and I tried not only the DB'ing approach but everything else I could possibly do as well.
sigh. I wish I knew what the heck I was doing. One minute detached, the next trying to figure it all out. When I surrender to the idea that whatever will happen will happen, my level of peace is so much greater.
Then I take the problem back into myself and try to figure out all the angles. In AA there is an expression called 'terminal uniqueness'. It is an expression used towards people who think they suffer more than most, that for some reasons their sitch is different then everyone else's, that the rules don't neccessarily fully apply to them. Perhaps I am suffering from terminal uniqueness concerning db'ing.
sigh. I wish I knew what the heck I was doing. One minute detached, the next trying to figure it all out. When I surrender to the idea that whatever will happen will happen, my level of peace is so much greater.
Then I take the problem back into myself and try to figure out all the angles.
This sounds just like me! Its very hard isn't it, some days I feel really detached and at peace with the way things are and other days I cant stop thinking about it all and trying to figure out where things are going and what will happen next.
I suppose it takes practice to stay detached. If your anything like me you probably beat yourself up if you say/do anything that wasnt ideal instead of getting back to DB and putting it down as experience, this is something i'm working on at the moment.
This Thursday my wife will be going to a lawyer. I assume to put him on retainer, to start our divorce case. Time is running out and the sense of dread mounts.
I can't quite believe that this is happening. To say it makes me feel awful would be a vast understatment. Loss, fear, sadness, anger, resentment, all rolled into one big ball of uncertainty and remorse.
I struggle to accept that this is the direction my life is going. Me, me, me, me, me. I had the gift of time and tried quite a few things. Most likely I could have done better, I am sure of it actually. Perhaps like above it was too much about me and not enough about her. Sorry for the self pity party venting......
The waiting has been hard these past few days. Had to break out some extra help by talking to some friends and my sister. Nerve wracking. My wife says she is just going to 'get some questions answered'. I think those questions are all obviously around 'how did I get divorced'.
However, at least maybe by the end of tomorrow I will have an answer of sorts. Some sort of plan of action rather than just kind of wondering what will happen and when. Of course tomorrow with those answers, I could be freaking out and wishing I was back again to not knowing
It does help reading others' stories. Sometimes posting even. Helps me get out of myself meanwhile potentially helping bring some semblance of peace to others.
So my wife went to the lawyer today. Put the kids to bed 15 minutes ago.....she is hiding in her sewing room and hasn't come out yet.
Must be she really doesn't want to talk about it/possibly avoiding the situation. Suspense is killing me but I think I am well grounded enough I can out wait her on this one.....
Tick
Tock
Tick
Tock
Well we had a two hour conversation. Some about the details of divorcing, finances, she is now fessing up to the concept of 50/50 physical custody doesn't feel right to her. She thinks it would be better for the kids to be with her for school days, alomst all. I disagree.
I listened though, truly listened. She is so closed to an R. I argued quite eloquantily I think about how where she is in life, where I am in life, how could a future marriage not be soooo much better than our previous marriage. I mentioned that if our marriage would be the same in the future that I myself would file for divorce.
There was no holding back on this last ditch effort. I hope that the space I have given her has cracked the wall a bit so that she can at least envision a possibility of us working things out.
She agrees that she has issues, I stated I had issues, and if we both worked on them how couldn't our marriage be better? Round and around, same things, refined/stated a different way.
Not sure of the results.....she said she had to have a break and go to bed as her head was spinning. She asked how i could have anything to do with her, knowing that she had no inclination to put forth one iota of effort into repairing our marriage.
I stated that 'i loved her, coupled with the fact that I think she is incorrect, I can only have hope and faith that I can reach her'. IDK. Better and a deeper conversation than any we have had so far. I feel somewhat drained as if I poured out all my emotion and used up my listening skills for the day
Upon reflection of our discussion last night I am starting to change my opinion of the outcome. At first I was hopeful. Hopeful that we conversed at a much deeper and more honest level then we have in a long time and maybe the wall cracked a bit.
But I really think my wife despises me. I am blown away by this potential revelation. I think she really almost hates me on some level. Just little things she said, the way she said them. If this is true than I have been blind for a long time.
And if it is true, I have no idea how it developed. I mean, I understand where/what went wrong in the marriage, what I was responsible for etc, but this is something that has been growing these past months as we have discussed the option of divorce.
While I have been thinking she was just closed to the idea of a R, I think she has come to the point where the idea of that is abhorrent to her. This person is not my wife that I have known for 20 years.
Where this hate comes from I do not know. I have given her space, let her do her own thing, the rare R talk that she has initiated there hasn't even been a raised voice. I could see if we were constantly fighting or something but I have never been so civil in my life. Sigh..........
So here is a question. Let's say the lawyers get started and I get temporaily removed from the house and have to have a hearing to get back in. Do I?
Ego tells me definately yes. However, we have been living together since october as this situation gets worse and worse. I mentioned in my previous post that it seems my wife has almost developed an allergic reaction to me. No matter what I do or say, it bothers her.
She has probably been stewing for months, trying to figure a way out of this situation because in her mind she is DONE. So yes I gave her 'space' but really how much could I give her? What is the potential for me being forced out, during the 6 month divorce process, and it actually doing our R some good?
Is that being reasonably hopeful or pathetic/doormat?
During another talk with my wife about divorce details, mainly custody and housing, I brought up a temporary custodial agreement. During this time between filing for divorce and finalization, my wife and I would be apart and see each other twice a week during the 'kids handoff'.
I mentioned that possibly the separation might do us some good....as in making my precence not such an ordeal for her. At that point, she sarcasticly mentioned she was starting to wonder if I was "delusional". I responded that it wasn't delusion but a degree of hope and faith.
It prompted the thought of 'you know, why do I ache to put this marriage back together with an attitude such as that'. I know my own actions are partly responsible for the breakdown in the marriage. I know that for sure. But I also know how much baggage she as well carries. And if she is so closed minded to reconciliation, so closed minded to see that it is in her best interests, marriage or not, to work on herself then I don't want her.
I deserve better.
Think we just settled on custodial arrangements which is good. Now it just needs to be drawn up. It is somewhat funny as she has been/is continualy lying about not having hired her attorney yet.
She keeps saying 'consultations'. I point blank asked her if she hired him yet at one point and she denies it. Was looking for the cigarette lighter powered air pump in her car three days ago and there was a pile of papers entitled 'divorce interview paperwork' or something.
Then I noticed oddly that all my financial mail had been opened.....stock accounts, IRA, bank statement were all gone, just the envelopes they came in.
Hmmm...pretty easy to put together.
Miss communication during custodial talks so it turns out that we don't have an agreement.
Let me ask....wife thinks 'stability' of the kids is very important. I agree. However, she thinks that means she needs to be the one who takes them to school everday which leaves me with only the weekends.
I contend that yes, it would be disruptive a little bit if both of us took them to school on some new set schedule. However, I think they would soon adapt and it wouldn't be an issue. I am shooting for 50/50 and am thinking I stay in the house 4 days, then she stays in the house 4 days. I would argue any disruption caused by who takes the kids to school would be offset/less than, having the kids move from house to house.
That does add another layer of complication as each week 'our days in the house' would change as well. But it seems the best of both worlds, both get 50/50 physical custody, we both get to participate in the kids areas of life (weekends plus school), and if either one of us takes only weekends, obviously that would get interuppted as the other parent would schedule random stuff for various weekends and the 'weekend only' parent would lose some time.
Maybe what I propose is impossible? Maybe my wife's agenda is different besides just the consideration for the kids?
Any thoughts?
Mothers always think that they know what's best for their children and that spending the most time with their mother is best. That doesn't make it true necessarily, but that's how they think. That's how I thought when I went through trying to decide on timesharing.
Well listen, she stated what she wants.... Now accepted, acceptance doesnt mean agree, it means ok its fine thats what she wants...
Now what is what you want for you?
Dont think about your W, think about what you want for you and your kids and strongly reinforce that belief...
Do you want to spend time with them?
Do you want 50/50?
Be honest with yourself, if you doubt about what you want she is not gonna help you achieve it...
It will only be another fight, its important to listen to ourselves...
One example, my W wants to D and move on, ok thats fine...I accept that...what do I want? What I really want? I dont want D so if she wants D she can spend her time and money in getting it but I am not signing papers because thats what she wants, its not revenge, its respecting what I want and do it because I respect myself, not to please her to see if she regrets...
Well your sitch its the same, you want out? Fine I accept that, I want my kids with me because thats what I want, and you dont have to explain her( she might not listen to you) you just do it because its what you want and its completelly valid, do you understand? In order to do this you have to detach from the R with her, you just have to think in what you want and what will be better for you and the kids...
Dont look at this in the superficial way of you keeping the kids, but in the spiritual way of thinking that you are honoring your needs, we dont honor our needs and wants based on the response of others but based on what we want... That way the situation will be more positive and you will be taking care of yourself...
I remember this last week I meet with my W and she wanted me to give her money from the deposit of the apartment...I dont have that money but because I didnt want her upset I was having troubles telling her my needs, today I am clear, I want and need time to put that money together, she doesnt like that? I dont care, I am detach of her feelings towards that, what I need its time and I will give myself time enough to put that money together....now, I can do two things, stay at home and not work or work towards getting that money, the first option will be manipulative, the second one will be the one to take care of myself and that debt...
Do the same, follow what you want and implement actions towards that, not against that, and be willing to see if thats what you really want or you are just being vengative...
You are shooting in the dark. Its best to avoid lawyers and mediate, but she now has a lawyer so you have no choice, you need your own attorney immediately. Your wife no doubt has a vision of her future, and that vision is that nothing will change except you are replaced with some other man. 9 out of 10 lawyers, when a mom walks in to interview and she is adamant on getting rid of her husband, they will sell her on this vision. All her problems are you, and once you are gone all will be rainbows and roses.
As long as you dont make any mistakes, this vision of hers of course wont happen. But as her vision starts to crumble she will get more and more hystrionic, she will order her attorney to be even more aggressive and in many cases this is when the progression starts...escalating things at home...bad mouthing and lie about you to others...trying to alienate the kids...false abuse claims etc. You might think this is out of the realm of possibility, but the fact is some of this stuff happens in MOST cases like yours I have observed.
So from now, you cant make any mistakes. You NEED to at least consult several lawyers, and dont try to make any offers or sign anything without one. You need to assume that you will end up somewhere between the initial offers. Dont immediately make a "fair" offer, because then the final agreement will then be the other side of fair. Assume anything you concede in any offer or negotiation is lost. If you offer her weekdays "for now"...she will always have them. If you offer Christmas day in exchanged for Christmas Eve, she will get Christmas day but that doesnt mean you get Christmas Eve. Finally, just say no to nesting. It is a set-up for disaster with all of the downsides of separation but none of the benefits. Your only communication with her will be fights over logistics, money, chores and schedules.
Your wife obviously has some motivation, whether that is some depression she blames on you or some OM, or the notion of one. But she thinks divorce is a good thing. Lots of men and women will go easy in a divorce and hope that by offering things to their spouse, the spouse will be somehow grateful or appreciative and call off the divorce. This is completely backwards. All you are doing is making their divorce easy and their dream looks like reality, at least in their eyes. You need to make sure the divorce is fair for you, and this means she will need to sacrifice just like you. If you want her to choose you, you have to be better than the alternative.
I so want to go into the bedroom and try to talk my wife out of this! Crazy and unreal at the same time. Discussing child custody, money, and lawyers like divorce was an everyday occurence (earlier). I was good, no R talk, just listened but also voiced my opinion/wants/needs concerning custody.
She still hasn't told me she has actaully hired her lawyer and I am just waiting to be served any day now. Maybe her lawyer told her not to tell me. Who knows. Maybe she thinks I will go ballistic, which I can't see why she would as every thing has been civil all along.
Yesterday she started crying as she said 'trust me, I am not out to steal your children'. Trust left awhile ago. I don't even know this person that my wife has become.
I keep thinking she will change her mind, and everytime I figure out she won't, there is pain. Would have figured I would know that by now......
Started exercising again today. Really need to GAL more and stop worrying about what she is thinking. Obviously my efforts haven't worked so far....running out of 180 ideas to try though
I mean what you want in terms of your children..... Ahhaha lets keep this business oriented and custody oriented and maybe in the future we can talk to her about something else.
What you want in terms of custody?
Financially what do you want?
Tough spot, I'm going to be tough on you. You keep saying you are giving her space but reading your posts it sounds like you are following her around asking her about her lawyer, telling her to come back, etc.
When you beg her to come back and say its fine to try to work things out without her putting in any effort you look clingy and not like the strong confident man she married. Instead of focusing on if she's retained a lawyer, focus on your kids or a project at the house.
Even if the thought of divorce scares you to death, let this roll off your back and show her it doesn't phase you. Win her back because you are a happy, confident upbeat guy, not someone she feels guilty hurting. Let her do what she has to do and trust that if you give her space and work on yourself that things might be different in the future.
I was thinking on my drive into work that I have been kind of whiney lately. And, that it was time for some more detaching and gal'ing. I have certainly made improvements in those categories but I see that I haven't done nearly enough.
I do believe I haven't given her as much space as I could have and I also agree I have had too many R talks. It is my suspicion that she already filed for D. If that is the case, I am trying to haggle out the child custody deal beforehand.
It is my hope that if she indeed has filed, and we have hashed out a temporary custodial agreement, then when the actual D case is official, we can implement the temporary custodial agreement that much faster.
We have to have a custodial agreement otherwise neither of us will move out of the house, risk the stigma of abandoment, and potentially hurt the final custodial terms. So by pushing custodial agreement talks I hope for us to be able to separate quicker, get the much needed space, and possibly influence my ability to DB. The sooner that is done the more time I have within the six month minimum waiting period for a divorce in Michigan.
You can check to see if she's filed online at the clerk of courts website.
Turns out she hasn't filed for a D already but she will be signing the papers tomorrow. Heard through the grapevine, she hasn't brought it up. I am a wreck.
I am at work, it is after five, and I am trying to build up my mental state so that I can handle being around her without breaking down. Went to IC today, all about letting go. I let it go, then take it back. I probably have posted that same sentence 5 times in the last two weeks
I have to embrace the futility of trying to 'talk some sense' into her. It just seems so obviously a waste to go this route, but she feels that we must. I know all this logically but emotionally my mind just spins and spins in circles.
'And acceptance is the key to all my problems'. Wish me luck as I chant that internally for the next few days!
So she told me tonight she is going to sign papers tomorrow for a legal separation. We had discussed separation at one point as I thought it had better tax advantages than a divorce. I listened, said 'ok. I am against it but if it what you want or need then lets proceed'.
I thought we should at least wait a day or so in order to consult with a tax man to see if I was correct or not. She said she would file anyway tomorrow and if needed we could convert to a divorce with one sheet of paper.
We talked about custody again, no real changes there. I did say, which was a mistake, maybe not, that I would consult with a tax man over the next few days and examine if this was the best option for me.
I threw that out there because for some reason leagal separation doesn't induce the same sense of fear that a D does. It is still over either way, or at least both require acceptance that that is her decision and i have no control. But where/why/how did this little sense of relief come from. I will have to examine and make sure I am not reading anything into that that will potentially cause me more pain down the road.
She said to that 'aren't you the one who brought that option up'....I said 'yes'. She seemed a bit pissy about that statement.
I think maybe the little sense of relief stems from the fact that in this case, I get to make a decision. Up to now there has only been a feeling of complete loss of control. My wife has been making these decisions and I have been along for the ride, scrambling to keep up. Gives me a small reduction in the sense of having no control.
Here is a question. Usually when the wife and I talk to the kids we try to present a united front, even if we don't quite agree. When it comes time to tell the kids we are splitting, do I make it clear that I am not in agreement? They are 6 and 8, the older kids already know but I guess if the question comes up with the older kids the same question applies.
Does that cause additional strife to the kids? Is it part of the WAS bearing the responsibility of their decisions?
Please let me know your thoughts.
Tough spot
IMO, the kids are gonna feel this. There is no way around it. That does not mean that they will not thrive later on in life.
do I make it clear that I am not in agreement?
First off, what is the purpose of telling them you are not in agreement? If it is that you are trying to make her feel bad, is it being done as a manipulative tactic?
IMO, IF they ask (not by you prodding them to ask), then I think you need to be honest with them. Tell them that it is not what ou want but you will respect her choices. That should be followed up with a LOT of….it is not their fault, that you guys are still a family, that YOU love them (I would not say “we”, that would be speaking for your W) and that YOU will always be there for them.
I have not read your entire sitch…but if you have reached a parenting plan, then you want to let them know what that will look like.
Be strong. It was the hardest thing I ever had to do.
I wouldn't do it for manipulative reasons (all though it did enter my mind as a way to 'punish' the wife). I was just wondering if it was right for me to in essence lie to the children. To take on a partial burden of guilt that might not neccessarily be due me. I probably will stick to the united front deal for the benefit of the children.
Anyone know the particulars of legal separation versus divorce? My wife filed for legal separation today based on research we did that it would be better for our taxes (a large amount of money saved by filing married/jointly versus two separate heads of household, times several years, makes up for the additional cost of converting to a divorce when/if either of want to get remarried).
I have a few calls into some CPA firms to verify. We both discussed that for us there is no distinction between the two. Was just wondering if anyone has any experience with that.
I was just wondering if it was right for me to in essence lie to the children.
It is NOT right for YOU to lie to the children. At the same token YOU DO NOT NEED to offer up things to them if they do not ask.
To take on a partial burden of guilt that might not neccessarily be due me.
I would worry less about taking on “guilt” – on one level BOTH you and your W are guilty. It takes two to make an M and two to break it.
Anyone know the particulars of legal separation versus divorce?
Depends on the state that you live in. In my state (CT), a legal separation means that you determine things like parenting plans, finances, etc. but that you in still married on some level. Usually people do this for tax or health benefit reasons, which it sounds like the reason she did the legal separation.
I think the question YOU need to ask yourself is ….IS the legal separation what YOU want?
This is so crazy. I should get served papers next week, maybe as soon as tomorrow. Meanwhile, here I sit in my chair, kids outside playing, my wife sitting in her chair. We both just pretend neither is here.
I ponder what to say, what would get a conversation going, what would be a good 180 thing to do. And the answer right now is nothing. I will just go about my own business and wait to get served papers. I literally cant think of anything that would benefit 'us'......guess that is why we can only work on ourselves. Time for another Wayne Dyer video!
I ponder what to say, what would get a conversation going, what would be a good 180 thing to do. And the answer right now is nothing.
I disagree with the answer of “nothing”.
I think the answer is to find YOUR happiness.
To do things that make YOU smile
To do things that make YOU laugh.
Sitting around….waiting for the divorce to happen seems depressing and unattractive. He’ll if she is sitting next to you and not talking….maybe you should get up, go out and have some fun.
You are right. Reread the LRT and other portions of DR today. Definatley where we are. Yesterday I did finally get off my a** and took the kids to the library and then the playground.
Tonight I get to spend more time with them as the wife is at work. Went and got new sandbox sand, cleaned out the old (stinky decomposing stuff!), washed the box and filled. Now they are contendedly out playing.
Tough spot...
I think the activities with the kiddos is great. You do need to find some activities with YOU - without the kids.
Eric
You are right. Too much introspection will be the death of my R and me. 'My mind is like a dangerous neighborhood, it should never be walked in alone'.
I will go a concert at the university tomorrow...maybe an AA meeting as well. Sounds like I will be sending the wife a text tomorrow saying 'won't be home until late'!
Sounds like I will be sending the wife a text tomorrow saying 'won't be home until late'!
You dont send no text messages, you do those things for you and that means learn how to not look for external forms of attention...so goodbye to every search for attention of others...
Probably shouldn't have changed my facebook status to divorced then
From an article about detaching...
"Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to experience greater emotional devastation from having hung on beyond a reasonable and rational point."
That is a difficult line for me to visualize. Where does the hope end and the codependency begin?
Today I go in to pick up my copy of the divorce filings. I had overslept this morning so my wife wrote me a note about going in to pick them up. I woke up before they left this morning though so we had a brief conversation about it.
Doing what I thought was a 180, I pointed at the note and said jokingly 'about time'. You know, rather than being sullen about it or begging/pleading against it I thought that would be something unexpected.
Man did she get pissed! She says something like 'I am so sorry it took three days for the court filing process'. So anyway, sometimes you just can't win.
I thought that was funny. Nice touch. Hang in there.
Well I picked up my divorce summons/complaint/papers this morning at my wife's lawyer. What a tough job that would be. I was pleasant but I bet they have to deal with some pretty upset people upon occasion!
The past two days I have sensed, basically it feels like waves of hate from my wife. I have no idea why she is so angry. I haven't been talking R with her, went and picked up my papers as she requested, as far as I know I have done absolutely nothing to her. It feels like she just hates the fact that I am not gone yet.
Her and her lawyer sure are shooting for the moon based on the paperwork from today. Wants alimony, primary custody, child support, me to help pay for her lawyer, maintain insurance on the kids, and an equitable division of our stuff.
Doesn't she remember going over our bleak looking finances 1.5 months ago and setting up a budget? We have a lot of debt....not sure where she thinks all this money is going to magically appear from.
I might ask her tonight, simply, 'why are you so angry with me' and see where that goes. Not sure.
So I asked. She said 'it isn't you, it is the tension, like something has to change or the divorce needs to progress'.
Eh, I still take it a little personal. I should be getting a temporary custodial agreement soon which would allow us to rotate out of the house on our non parenting days. Have to see it first, have to run it by my L first, then make a decision.
Part of me wonders if the agreement isn't to my liking whether I should go with it anyway as it would speed up the process of us having space. I don't think there is a chance of R right now, with our current living arrangements, and the constant tension between the two of us.
The other part of me says if I am not completely happy with the temporary arrangement that f$(@ her, I am staying in the house until this process is complete. Not sure which side will win out....
Touch spot
Probably shouldn't have changed my facebook status to divorced then
Do you know why you did it? Can you see and understand why?
I pointed at the note and said jokingly 'about time'. You know, rather than being sullen about it or begging/pleading against it I thought that would be something unexpected.
Is the real reason you said this jokingly was to not be sullen? Be honest… why did you really say it?
The past two days I have sensed, basically it feels like waves of hate from my wife. I have no idea why she is so angry. I haven't been talking R with her, went and picked up my papers as she requested, as far as I know I have done absolutely nothing to her.
Her anger is HER issue to deal with. Also, stop always thinking that this is about YOU. It could be about her. Who knows why she is angry.
Her and her lawyer sure are shooting for the moon based on the paperwork from today. Wants alimony, primary custody, child support, me to help pay for her lawyer, maintain insurance on the kids, and an equitable division of our stuff.
Totally normal. The first step of the process is usually to ask for the world.
Doesn't she remember going over our bleak looking finances 1.5 months ago and setting up a budget? We have a lot of debt....not sure where she thinks all this money is going to magically appear from.
Stop for a second….. do you think that she is worried about where YOU are going to have to come up with the money for this? Once you have started the D process, IMO, you need to treat it as a business deal. Terms like “us”, “we”, “she should understand”…do not apply. She is going to do what SHE feels she needs to do. You will need to do the same.
Part of me wonders if the agreement isn't to my liking whether I should go with it anyway as it would speed up the process of us having space. I don't think there is a chance of R right now, with our current living arrangements, and the constant tension between the two of us.
I will warn you now…. Agreeing to something that YOU truly do not agree with under an EXPECTATION that X or Y will happen is a bad way to go about this. If you agree – expect nothing. Do not expect that agreeing to all of her request are going to translate into her seeing that you are wonderful guy.
Peace,
Eric
Good info eric, thanks.
Kind of leads into my next question. She is angry/tense all the time I am around. Just my presence alone, I don't have to speak. However, when I do speak, even something innocuous, the anger/tension comes out in a disrespectful tone. I don't think I am being over sensitive.
I don't think it is right for me to allow her to speak to me in that tone. How does one approach that? Or do I just stop speaking at all? Or, do I just say to myself that she is angry with life and not to take it personally? Or, is that codependent justification? Ha, could keep going round and round here....
I don't think it is right for me to allow her to speak to me in that tone. How does one approach that? Or do I just stop speaking at all? Or, do I just say to myself that she is angry with life and not to take it personally? Or, is that codependent justification? Ha, could keep going round and round here....
When you go to the store and a person there attends you angry...do you spend hours asking that person why? Nop right? You accept and leave with your coffee, well this is the same, she reacts angry and you pay attention so her anger increase because at this point her respect level for you its 0, just dont stay around when she is angry and work on yourself, at one point that anger will dissapear and if it doesnt...imagine the hell of a life she is gonna have for the next 50 years being upset...
She is angry/tense all the time I am around. Just my presence alone, I don't have to speak. However, when I do speak, even something innocuous, the anger/tension comes out in a disrespectful tone. I don't think I am being over sensitive.
You may be being a bit sensitive. If you are it is normal. In terms of her anger, who knows what or why she is angry. I have seen that in many cases, the WAW is anger because it help justify their choices. At the end of the day, her anger is her issue. If she does not like seeing you in the house, she can leave. Not that you should say that to her per se. My point is ignore it. Keep your focus on you and your happiness.
I don't think it is right for me to allow her to speak to me in that tone. How does one approach that? Or do I just stop speaking at all? Or, do I just say to myself that she is angry with life and not to take it personally?
What is she saying to you? If she is calling you names i.e. arsehole, chithead, etc. then you need to say to her that you do not appreciate it and then walk away. Sometimes people will initiate a conflict so that the other person responds..giving them the justification they need to respond back. It also help solidify in her mind everything that is wrong with you.
If she just seems distant and angry and every now and then mumbles something under her breath, then I would just ignore it.
At the end of the day, she is going to feel the way she feels.
Keep the focus on you and YOUR life. Try to get out and do things that you enjoy doing.
So I should just detach and pay it no mind? By doing so, doesn't that just keep her respect level for me at zero? Or at this point no matter what I do the respect level will stay at zero? I do agree she has little if any respect for me at this point.
Yes detach and pay it no mind.
I would no allow her to walk all over you nor talk to you like you are a piece of cr*p.
Why do you say she does not respect you? Can you give me some specifics.
Maybe it is just mind reading on my part. Maybe I am over sensitive. I guess it is just when I start to talk she has this look like 'will he ever shut up', or, since she is tense/angry all the time, she speaks to me in what I perceive as a demeaning tone.
So I got a letter from her lawyer today. I have a hearing on May 6th for 'temporary custody, child support, and parenting time'. This is a shocker. We had discussed coming up with a temporary custodial agreement ourselves, getting it ratified by the courts, and proceeding on with the divorce.
the intent was to allow us to leave the house without the risk of 'abandoning the home' and hence potentially affecting long term custodial agreements. Now I have to go to court? I am going to have to talk to her about this tonight/tomorrow and ask why the change.
This has me highly concerned (understatement big time). I just can't figure out how a parent can think it is best for the children/right/fair to not split custody equally. There are no anger issues here, there is no drug abuse here, she knows/admits/has stated that I am a good father.
She must think they are better off with her? But why? I do not know and this is putting me really close to freaking out.
Mothers always think the kids are better off with them, it's just how women think. They are maternal. I can say this because I'm a woman .....
So she thinks I am a good father but she is a better mother and doesn't think 50/50 is in the best interests of the kids. Man does that hurt. I am in a panic as I think she qualifies more as the 'primary care giver' than I do and I will lose when it goes to court.
Haven't talked to my lawyer about it yet but I think that is the way it will go. I can forgive/accept the lack of wanting to work on the marriage, I can forgive/accept the financial ruin this divorce will cause, I don't think I will be able to accept the intention to keep the kids from me.
AAARRRgggghhhh. I am so screwed here. I think those are her real feelings, that she thinks the kids will be better off spending more time with her and custody not being equal. I just don't know. She says we need to come up with something we can agree on before the trial date of may 6th. I think db'ing is over as I don't see how any reconciliation can come after such a divisive issue as child custody.
Tough
I have a hearing on May 6th for 'temporary custody, child support, and parenting time'. This is a shocker. We had discussed coming up with a temporary custodial agreement ourselves, getting it ratified by the courts, and proceeding on with the divorce.
Sorry to hear that dude. Now that she has taken this path, I think you need to go dark. No more conversations.
I am going to have to talk to her about this tonight/tomorrow and ask why the change.
I would not talk to her about it. Why? She has already spoken via the letter your received from the court.
So she thinks I am a good father but she is a better mother and doesn't think 50/50 is in the best interests of the kids. Man does that hurt.
She can think all she wants. What matter is what a judge will say. Most states are now coming around and 50/50 is become much more of the standard.
I am in a panic as I think she qualifies more as the 'primary care giver' than I do and I will lose when it goes to court.
First off, don’t panic. Why do you think she qualifies more as the primary care giver? If you keep saying you are going to lose, then chances are you will. DB101 – Stay Positive!
Haven't talked to my lawyer about it yet but I think that is the way it will go.
WTF are you waiting for? Get on the phone with your L.
AAARRRgggghhhh. I am so screwed here. I think those are her real feelings, that she thinks the kids will be better off spending more time with her and custody not being equal. I just don't know. She says we need to come up with something we can agree on before the trial date of may 6th. I think db'ing is over as I don't see how any reconciliation can come after such a divisive issue as child custody.
They may be her real feeling but she does not get to decide who the kids stay with. If the two you cannot agree then it is judge. As for db’ing…right now you need to resolve the parenting sitch first.
Do you have a plan that you can present? If so, what is it?
So we talked yesterday and she said that stuff about 50/50 not 'being in the best interests of the children and that we need to come up with something prior to the hearing'. So today I email her an option of every weekend Friday-Monday am, one week xmas break, 3 weeks during the summer. That gets overnights to 184, or 50/50.
She counters with every other weekend and Wed night. I respond with Sunday 8am through Wed am drop off to school, same breaks, equals 184, or 50/50. She responds with 'well I don't hate that, let me think about it'.
So I don't know what she is thinking. I sent the newest paperwork to my lawyer this morning. I only officially hired him last Friday so he isn't up to speed, but I will give a call tomorrow if he doesn't call first.
I have been keeping a log of activities I have done with the kids these last three months....when I made dinner, picked them up from school, took them to the park, made snack, read them a book, played with legos etc. I have definitely been involved enough to warrant more consideration than every other weekend, if left to a judge. However I think she has a slight edge on me with the taking them to school/being involved with conferences etc.
That is why I want an agreement prior to entering the courtroom. I have to wait on input from the attorney on how best to go about that or figuring out what my chances would be in a courtroom.
9 year old asked her this morning if we are getting a divorce. So she had to answer some questions for her and the 6 year old but I had already left for work. I picked them up this morning and they have already been asking me questions about it. Sigh...almost cried while talking but held it together for their sake.
I am not a fan of how they reiterated my wife's thoughts, like 'we are more comfortable with mom taking us to school because that is what we are used to' and 'dad, you are more of the weekend guy'. Sometimes during these kinds of cases, aren't the children asked questions? I don't like the idea of her planting the 'correct' answers in their head.
Thanks for the pep talk, I needed it. I will have a better grasp on things after I talk to L tomorrow. Just hope I can afford the proper defense against this type action!
Hope things go well. Stop giving in to her. She's controlling you totally right now.
I respond with Sunday 8am through Wed am drop off to school, same breaks, equals 184, or 50/50.
Can you really do this? What are you going to do if they need to miss school? What about school closings?
However I think she has a slight edge on me with the taking them to school/being involved with conferences etc.
Stop thinking of it in terms of “edge” and start thinking of it in terms of what is best for them.
Being a 50/50 parent is not easy buddy. You need to be prepared to answer questions like…what will you do if they are sick, what about parent teacher conferences, etc. So please have your ducks in a row.
Based on your post you seem to be operating in fear. Stop it.
Contact your attny and find out what they suggest are the next steps.
Find out what your attny feels are the best chances for you to secure what you want.
I am not a fan of how they reiterated my wife's thoughts, like 'we are more comfortable with mom taking us to school because that is what we are used to' and 'dad, you are more of the weekend guy'. Sometimes during these kinds of cases, aren't the children asked questions? I don't like the idea of her planting the 'correct' answers in their head.
Bottom line, the dynamics in the family have changed. When you and your w were together it may have made sense for her to take the kids to school. Now it does not. As for the kids asking questions, it is normal. You need to assure them that this is not their fault and that, they you and their mom will figure out what is best for them. Reiterate that neither of you are leaving them. As for what your W may be saying to them…I hear you loud and clear – there is nothing you can do about it.
Keep me posted on what the attny says.
I can handle taking the kids to school. I am a manager with a somewhat flexible schedule. Already talked to my manager about him potentially writing a letter stating the flexibility in my schedule in case it were to come up in court. All though, perhaps it would be as in the past where we took turns taking days off as/when the kids were sick.
I am operating somewhat in fear. I am literally in the position so far of only being able to respond to what my wife does, not take the initiative. I mean, we can talk about what our plans are but whatever trust was there is long since gone so it almost is worthless.
I do plan on sending her a brief email to please watch what she does say around the children. She knows better than that. It is almost the beginning of using the children as a weapon. And that cannot happen.
I am looking forward to stepping up to even more involvement in my children's lives. At least in different aspects than what has gone before. Sure, I would be lying if I said it had absolutely nothing to do with finances or 'getting one over on her'....but their welfare is foremost in my mind. The other two things are just a bonus
Will advise on the attorney information tomorrow.
Thanks again. And Mr.Bond, if you see glaring examples of my wife's controlling behavior, please point them out.
what do you guys think about this email?
-------
So I picked up the kids from school tonight.....got home...3 minutes later questions about the divorce came up. If you could, I would please ask that you consider how/what you speak to them about. Carson said 'yes, we would probably want mom to have the extra day because we are used to her taking us to school' and Chance said 'yes, you are more of the weekend guy dad'.
So by saying those things to them, you are somewhat setting their opinions for them and it may make things more difficult. This one seems rather innocuous, but with the possibility of someone from the court system asking their opinion on matters, it seems a bit on the sketchy side. My opinion about the custody of the children is based solely on what I think is in their best interests as I am sure your opinion originates from the same. I will make every effort not to 'taint' their view one way or the other and would appreciate the same courtesy.
I am operating somewhat in fear.
Not a good place to operate from!
I am literally in the position so far of only being able to respond to what my wife does, not take the initiative.
Why? What are you afraid of? Her filing? She has already done that. It is time, especially as it relates to protecting YOUR R with the kids, that you drive this a bit. Be clear on what it is that YOU want – not what your W is willing to give.
IF deep down in your heart you believe that 50/50 will not work – then that’s okay.
Remember this…..”doing the right thing – is NEVER wrong”.
I mean, we can talk about what our plans are but whatever trust was there is long since gone so it almost is worthless.
You continue to operate as if there is an “us”. Now is not the time to trust that she is going to do right by you and the kids. She has her opinion and you have yours.
As for the email. I would not send it.
Do you really think anything you say to her is going to change what she does?
Speak to your L. Let him know what is happening and see what he says.
anyone know why sometimes I see someone posted on my thread, but until I type in/submit a new paragraph, can't see the next page?
Sigh. So my wife said she doesn't feel 50/50 custody is in best interest of the kids. I propose a sharing agreement that is basically 160 days out of a real 50/50 split which consists of 182 days and she responds with 'well, i don't hate that' and asks for some more details.
I give her the extra details she asked for and she responds with 'no, don't like that at all'. Anyway, I can see this will take some time. Have talked to my lawyer and he says we have time....just need to reach an agreement before the May 6th court hearing and we can avoid court.
I am soul searching right now.....trying to verify that the reasons i want 50/50 custody are the right ones. I really can't imagine being away from my kids....and if I have to be...I can't seem to get my head around accepting anything less than 50%.
I will share with you that not only did the BD open my eyes to my poor marital relationship, it has also shown me the precious nature/relationship I have with my kids. Both are something I had took for advantage and see the error of my past. Don't want to repeat that!
Well I have haggled my way to a 40/60 split so far. Still not content nor feel it is in the best interests of the children. So, time to leave it alone for one week until I talk to my lawyer on the 23rd. Have to ask him his opinion.
IC seems to think that I have a really good shot at 50/50 as there are no issues such as abuse etc. She seems to think that the edge my wife may have on the kids with school was based on our agreement that that was how we would raise the children. This divorce gives me the opportunity to change that and since I am quite capable of doing that, shouldn't count against me.
So in a better place currently. This custodial deal has been gnawing at me for weeks. So much so that I seem to have lost even a vague interest in trying to R the marriage. The way the wife has been acting, when it does occur to me, I wonder if I had my choice, would I choose to R......
Today was my eldest daughters college graduation ceremony. Went pretty well, everyone got along, had fun. Well, until after the ceremony when I was outside with my 6 year old. He decided to run down the sidewalk through the row of graduates coming out of the building and promptly disappeared.
Holy freak out. Lost him for about 10 minutes...got a hold of my wife as she was coming out of the building via phone to tell her our son was missing (I had taken him out early as he was restless). 5 more minutes of panic before we found him. That is the second time in my life where we have temporarily lost a child in a crowd. Not a pleasant experience!
Went to court Thursday to attend a random strangers temporary custodial hearing to try to get a feel for what will happen on May 6th when I am supposed to go. Doing research and that was recommended as something to make one less nervous and potentially gain some insights on how to act/proceed. Of course, the one I chose/had time to attend, something went awry as no one ever showed up in the hearing room.
Will try again on Monday. Talk to my lawyer Wed night and will be asking questions about that hearing, what to expect, how to prepare, and what he thinks my 'chances' are to be awarded 50/50 custody. Wife still fighting me on that all though I have decided not to discuss until after talking to the lawyer next week.
Tomorrow is easter, have plans to be with wife, family, and inlaws all day. Seems so weird sometimes doing the 'normal' things meanwhile pondering my potential custody defenses. Trying to just stay in today and enjoy it as it unfolds. Another one of those life principles that are so simple yet so difficult to implement........
Wow did I make a mistake. Occasionally, say once every two weeks or so through this divorce process I have given my wife a kiss on the forehead. Well today, I was feeling pretty bad and walked into the bedroom and my wife was sleeping. I bent over to give her a kiss on the forehead, my 9 year old came in and says real loudly, 'why are you waking her up'. of course wife woke up and so me looming over her.
So she comes out and asks me what I was doing and I told her I was going to give her a kiss. She freaked out....furious, says it is creepy and even illegal. I am completely taken aback. I guess I did cross a line and it could come across as creepy. Totally not the intent. I told her I was having a particularly tough time and that it was just an expression of love.
She said 'why would you do that while I was sleeping, knowing that if I didn't want a kiss while I was awake that it was a violation to do it while I was sleeping'. To which I was confused as she never objected to the occasional kiss these last few months. I tried just to validate and assured her it would never happen again.
Talk about another difficult to deal with sign that someone wants absolutely nothing to do with me. The crushing sense of rejection tells me I haven't detached enough.
Well, talked to my lawyer the other day. Boy I hope I can convince my wife to move to 50/50 custody. Otherwise it will be a long, hard, an expensive road. I asked what my chances would be to get 50/50 if left to the courts. Unfortunately the referee/judge in charge of our case is new and my lawyer has no idea what type of custody arrangements he favors.
I really don't like spending money. I really really don't like spending money I don't have on stuff like a contested custody case. Lawyer tells me could be something close to a 3-4 day trial, witnesses, expense, expense, expense.
However, the kids well being is truly of the upmost importance. I truly feel that what is best for them is a real 50/50 agreement. I don't feel I am a better parent than my wife (she does feel she is better than I though)....we both have issues. We both have good points as well. I think that exposure to the children is what is best for them in the long run.
And, since that is how I feel, I can't sit by the side and let my wife dictate to me. If this was about a car or the home, I might be willing to cut my losses and 'settle' over the issue. But it is my children's well being and I will have to do/spend/wait/work on, whatever is necessary to see that through.
No argument, some little doubt, lots of fear it will not go my way, but I have to try. Morally there is no choice for me.
I was told true 50/50 agreements were only offered if agreement reached otherwise will have custodial and pay support! Good luck same boat here!
I've only read the last page of your thread. I'm sorry noone has popped in to say a few words. I hope someone pops in with some wisdom soon.
Still no getting my wife past 60/40 custody. She keeps maintaining that the 'kids need a stable school week' (which means her I guess). I responded with the 50/50 schedule of 4,3,3,4 gives us alternating weekends and me always taking them to school on Mon&Tuesday and her always taking the kids to school the rest of the week.
I don't know if her primary concern is the children or not. Let me rephrase that....I think her primary concern is the children but money and inconvenience to her weigh pretty darn high up there...
Any ideas on convincing a spouse to go 50/50 on custody? I really think that that is best for the kids.
Tomorrow is the temporary custody hearing and my attorney is telling me to take the 150 days out of 365 offer. Contingent upon us possibly seeing a mediator, if my wife agrees, to potentially up that percentage.
Through this process I am continually amazed at our miscommunication, high emotions, and such different view points. Perhaps the complete lack of trust has a large part to do with the almost instantaneous anger.
I converted my wife's legal separation filing to a divorce once I had talked to a CPA and found out the tax benefits I thought existed weren't really there. Just did that last week, wife got the answer papers (which she didn't read), I never brought it up with her until last night.
At which point she went ballistic. Asking me why I didn't bother to tell her, I was taken aback by her vehemence. I told her it wasn't being sneaky, I thought we had talked about it, it doesn't give me any advantage to keep it secret, and frankly I didn't think she gave a rat's as$ about the nuance between legal separation and divore.
Her expression upon reading my answer to her complaint in which my lawyer requested child support from her was priceless (I make 3x what she does). I tried to explain I didn't know he did that and even if I had, didn't she explain to me that when she filed her initial papers that she included everything up to paying her legal fees, as stuff needed to be in the initial paperwork and couldn't be added later!
I think most of her anger stems from this is the first action in which she wasn't the initiator/in control. I am not sure this has really anything to do with db'ing except I am still working on detaching and treating this as a business matter.
This relationship is a burden and is wearing me down. There is no way this relationship will be suitable for an R unless/when there is a lot of space between us for a good period of time. I can say, all though I have made mistakes, I definitely feel I have kept to the higher road as this marriage spirals towards its end.
Tomorrow is the temporary custody hearing and my attorney is telling me to take the 150 days out of 365 offer. Contingent upon us possibly seeing a mediator, if my wife agrees, to potentially up that percentage.
Through this process I am continually amazed at our miscommunication, high emotions, and such different view points. Perhaps the complete lack of trust has a large part to do with the almost instantaneous anger.
I converted my wife's legal separation filing to a divorce once I had talked to a CPA and found out the tax benefits I thought existed weren't really there. Just did that last week, wife got the answer papers (which she didn't read), I never brought it up with her until last night.
At which point she went ballistic. Asking me why I didn't bother to tell her, I was taken aback by her vehemence. I told her it wasn't being sneaky, I thought we had talked about it, it doesn't give me any advantage to keep it secret, and frankly I didn't think she gave a rat's as$ about the nuance between legal separation and divore.
Her expression upon reading my answer to her complaint in which my lawyer requested child support from her was priceless (I make 3x what she does). I tried to explain I didn't know he did that and even if I had, didn't she explain to me that when she filed her initial papers that she included everything up to paying her legal fees, as stuff needed to be in the initial paperwork and couldn't be added later!
I think most of her anger stems from this is the first action in which she wasn't the initiator/in control. I am not sure this has really anything to do with db'ing except I am still working on detaching and treating this as a business matter.
This relationship is a burden and is wearing me down. There is no way this relationship will be suitable for an R unless/when there is a lot of space between us for a good period of time. I can say, all though I have made mistakes, I definitely feel I have kept to the higher road as this marriage spirals towards its end.
So today was the hearing. My wife changed her mind from the 150 days she was offering yesterday down to 90. She was pretty pissed when I mentioned to her last night that she was under a misconception. That misconception was that the temporary custody agreement automatically instilled the need for us to implement it and start rotating out of the house.
I informed her that if either of us was unhappy with the results of the hearing that either of us could continue living in the house as long as we wanted. She took that as an ultimatum from me by saying if I wasn't happy with the custody agreement I would continue to live in the house. She took it the correct way....it was my way of indirectly stating she may want to negotiate with me on the custody days and approach close to the 50/50 that I desired.
So before the hearing this morning I kept texting her various ideas of how we could up the percentage of parenting time...at least for a couple of hours as she wasn't responding with other than 'have to talk to my lawyer first'. We went to the hearing and the referee stated that 'since there is a difference between what the two parties want they can either negotiate or I will make a decision....once the hearing starts there is no going back.
He asked her first as she is the plantiff if she was interested in negotiating. She said no. I cannot explain to you the level of fear and tension I felt. However, they couldn't prove that I was disinterested in the welfare of the children or that I was incapable of meeting their needs. He awarded us 50/50 custody!
She is a great mother, hands. It just wasn't the case that I am not capable. What a load off my mind. So tonight we drew up the plans for revolving through the house. One week on, one week off. I leave Friday.
I am so relieved about the custody on the one hand, so disappointed another chunk of the divorce process has started on the other.
Moving out tomorrow to begin the one week on/one week off rotation through the house. Wife is literally not speaking to me. Got home yesterday and said hello, no response. Asked her if she saw my missing key ring (has the safe deposit key on it, wonder if she took it), no response. Said her name, no response. Then quit trying.
She lost 'control' of this situation at the hearing. Anyway, enough about her. Worried, excited, feeling a sense of relief at the impending move. This morning I was thinking to myself 'what am I going to do Saturday'? Wont be in my house, so no house projects, no cleaning, no kids.
I do have work to catch up on as I have fallen behind during this stressful time. Think I will go in this weekend but won't until Sunday. Need a day off to unwind. Field trip with a bus of 1st graders and my son tomorrow! 1-1/2 bus ride both ways......should be very interesting.
So I moved out Friday, had my first mid week visit with the kids. Sure have missed them all though I did get to speak to my daughter the other night and also skype'd both of them another.
My wife hasn't spoken to me since the custody trial. I have sent her a couple of emails trying to start some dialogue. Last one she finally responded to about some business stuff and answered my question of 'I sense you are really upset with me can you please tell me why?'
She responded with 'The minute you got on the stand and lied under oath in order to take my children away from me I lost all trust and respect I had for you. If you want to talk, call my lawyer and set something up. I am never again speaking to you without someone there recording every word so that you can't use what I say in lies against me.'
I know there are always two sides to a story but I am having a real difficult time even attempting to see where she is coming from. All I wanted was 50/50 custody....she wanted to go to the trial....she wanted me to only have 90 days rather than the 182.5 that represents 50/50.
She obviously in her mind thinks I am lying about something. It is either my involvement with the children, grocery shopping, giving them baths, going to school activities (all of which are substantiated by my journal I have kept for over 4 months).
I think the main thing is when I was asked by my lawyer if there was anything that concerned me about my wife taking care of my children, I sat there contemplating, silent, for about 15-20 seconds. After much hesitation I responded with 'my only concern is her untreated mental illness'.
That is based on her having been diagnosed as bipolar in 2009, her having bariatric surgery in 2012 and deciding she no longer needed her medicine. Without the massive amounts of overeating/sugar she did indeed improve most likely through the reduction in hormonal swings from the crazy amount of sugar. However, lately I have noticed after her doing so well these past few years, chocolate wrappers stuffed in and around the bed.
She is reverting to her old behavior and it was a concern of mine. I think that is what she is referring to about 'using her words against her'. Not sure as she won't explain.
I have been trying to stay detached from that reaction. I still care about her though at it really hurts having someone you care about literally hate you. We still need to communicate for the sake of the children. This Friday I go home and she leaves the house for a week.
I want to straighten this out before her anger possibly causes her to permanently move out or somehow mess up the plans that we created for the benefit of the children. She is just so angry she is unapproachable right now.
Sigh. No idea how to handle this situation at all.
Congrat's on the 50/50 custody split!
I would stop trying to convince your wife or be nicey nice. It is pointless at this time. Enjoy the kids and focus on YOUR happiness. Leave W to her own devices.
I want to straighten this out before her anger possibly causes her to permanently move out or somehow mess up the plans that we created for the benefit of the children. She is just so angry she is unapproachable right now.
if she wants to move - let her. Her choice anyway.
Stop worrying so much about her and start worry about YOU and the kids.
First week at home with the kids has gone pretty well. Wife still wont speak to me but then again i guess i haven't really tried to speak with her. Guess that will be the new normal. Pity it has to be that way but perhaps in a way better for me.
Slightly easier to detach when one doesn't really have a choice! Friday I move out again, another week without the children. I have had to put on my big boy pants and do some stuff I never have before. Scheduling daycare, drop offs, pick ups, summer programs etc. Have it all scheduled out until fall.
Divorce, if it proceeds at current pace will be finalized in Oct. Don't really see any other options at this point. Gal'ing as much as I can. Going to go to a 'highland festival' this weekend, following weekend is a golf outing. Should be fun.
Certainly going to be financially difficult. I am going to go from exempt status at the federal level to paying about 12k per year in taxes. Add child support of $500/month as well. Probably have to start packing my lunch, no more subway.
My wife called me today and told me 'the kids aren't happy'. When I inquired why, she stated that my 9 year old has sobbed both times she was dropped of to me. I told her that this was the second week of our new custody, this is a shitty situation, and yes the kids will be unhappy for awhile.
She said to that that that wasn't true and we needed to talk. I almost thought the phone call was recorded as she offered up that we can have a 'private agreement of custody' (meaning she gets more than half) and we can leave the 'public agreement' as is.....insinuating that that would help me keep child support low. I replied that 'it isn't about money'.
She stated the kids aren't happy and we need to talk and come to a different agreement or she will have to file a motion for a contested custody trial. I don't think anything will come from a meeting, but I will meet in an effort to avoid a costly trial. I think 50/50 is in the best interests of the kids. She stated she doesn't want a trial as it 'will get ugly, really really ugly'.
I just want her to leave me alone.
We had a 2.5 hour meeting at the library yesterday. Started out really hostile and pretty rough. However, throughout the discussion, many misperceptions by both of us were revealed (about the child custody trial) and by the end both of us were much more at ease with each other.
I had brought a recorder which I put on the table in front of my wife. I had wanted the recorder and the meeting in a public place because I have no trust whatsoever (before the meeting) for my wife and felt it necessary to cover my ass. That is how bad things had gotten between us.
We stuck to it and by the end had resolved several issues and I think both reached a level of rapport where we can somewhat stand to be around each other. I really think that this relationship is beyond saving but I will try to maintain d'bing with a mustard seed of faith.
Interesting morale question. My wife was going to date a customer of mine. This customer is from my largest account. The thought of my wife dating anyone is very troubling but by itself, I have no control, and need to just deal with that.
However, when I learned about this, I asked her not to. I have to deal with this customer about 2 times a week personally, he is in my shop dealing with others about 5 times a week. I stated that I didn't want her potentially messing with my business by dating someone from my largest account. I can imgaine several negative possibilities arrising from that scenario. In my mind, 'any risk is to big when dealing with an account that represents 25% of my yearly sales'.
Do I have the 'right' to insist on that? Still obviously can't control her but that just seems petty. Like there aren't other people she could date. Perhaps I am lying to myself and just saying if she was merely dating I would have to learn to deal with it but the customer part makes my situation 'unique/special'. Special in a way that justifies my interference.
Any thoughts?