New thread - old one is here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2423724&page=11I want to clarify a few things Sandi.
First - I believe the crazy email you are referring to is this one that I received last Friday (1/24):
Are you interested in moving forward with a divorce if I'm continuing the affair? We don't have to email. We can text or if you want to talk on the phone you can call me during lunch today.I never responded to this email.
This Tuesday (1/28) I received this email:
Hello. How have you been? I was so used to hearing from you that its been weird not talking to you.I did not respond to this email either.
Yesterday (Thursday 1/30) I received this email:
no response to my last email??It was sent to all three of my email accounts with a read receipt notification on each.
A couple of hours later, after I did not respond, I received the below text:
hello???? are you ignoring me?Shortly thereafter I responded with:
No – not ignoring you. I’ve been good. Busy at work – (Big Boss) is up and we’re trying to figure out strategy for this year.SHE then responded with:
ok. i was just checking in I guess. I'm going to RI this weekend. Maybe we should try to meet up next week sometime. I'll talk to you at the beginning of the week.I did not respond to this last email. I did not carry it further, I did not suggest we meet up and talk - SHE did. She reached out to me 3 or 4 times before I responded and my response was short, to the point and did not offer anything further.
I have also read many many stories on these boards where people say that they have to learn to be friends first. That the LBS should detach but also leave the way home open. How can I do that if I ignore her. We don't have children. How can we have positive interactions, ones where she notices changes and sees potential for a new relationship, when I refuse to interact with her by ignoring her? How can we have positive interactions if I cannot even be civil to her?
I think AS said it in a post to another person recently but this is the tightrope that we all walk in these situations. I don't think that I responded out of an addiction to interact with her. I resisted the urge to respond to two previous emails. I do think that I was in complete control of myself with my response. I waited a few days, I asked for feedback from people here and my eventual response was 100% un-emotional.
Furthermore, I have no idea what her relationship with the OM is at this point. The last I heard from her, he was not interested in talking to her until she was divorced. She has made no moves to get divorced to allow that relationship to continue.
Prior to my no-snooping goal (which I have been able to adhere to btw - have not snooped since Sunday night), I had noticed some obvious changes in their relationship - namely that he had not spent the night at her place since the beginning of the year. This is in contrast to the month of December where he was there regularly.
Maybe this all means something and maybe it doesnt, but if one of my goals is eventual reconciliation, it occurs to me that I have to allow myself to be vulnerable at times. I have to consider the possibility that maybe the veil has started to lift without pinning my hopes and dreams on that being the case.
If I am wrong in all of this and there is another way to do what I am trying to accomplish, please let me know.
Sandi can answer for Sandi but just know that boundaries are important and that you get to decide who you let in but do it knowing the consequences.
If your W really loves you and wants to be with you, you protecting your boundaries won't kill her love. You could even remind her that you have a very good reason to want to protect yourself.
If your W constantly ignores your boundaries, you have a decision to make. Is this someone you want a R with?
Don't mind-read about what's going on in her head about D, the other man, etc. That's fear-based and living in fear keeps you stuck.
Do what's best for Dingo.
I think you are doing good Dingo, it is a tight rope, and being vulnerable [censored] especially in this type of setting. However; when you love you are vulnerable, I personally think you've made tremendous growth steps.
Don't mind-read about what's going on in her head about D, the other man, etc. That's fear-based and living in fear keeps you stuck.
Do what's best for Dingo.
Thanks for your response bug. I understand about boundaries but if I let those boundaries become a wall, that doesn't do me any good either.
Isn't saying, 'I won't respond because she's crossed this boundary and hurt me before so I want to protect myself from further hurt' also fear based?
Again, if one of my goals is reconciliation, isn't it preferable to let her in just a little - with no expectations either way and no pressure and see what happens?
and thanks for our input too CL. I was looking for your thread the other day and didn't see anything recent.
Thanks for your response bug. I understand about boundaries but if I let those boundaries become a wall, that doesn't do me any good either.
Sometimes we need a wall to find our inner strength, get our feet firmly planted and to detach. You're still greatly affected by everything she does and says and writes. Go back to your anxiety about the last email.
Isn't saying, 'I won't respond because she's crossed this boundary and hurt me before so I want to protect myself from further hurt' also fear based?
No. I see it as saying "I know what I need to do for me to keep me healthy."
it's a very good question. Our boundaries should come from a place of strength not fear. Boundaries are you taking care of you.
Again, if one of my goals is reconciliation, isn't it preferable to let her in just a little - with no expectations either way and no pressure and see what happens?
Sure, but the tough part is, and only you know if you can do this,
with no expectations.
Can you truly do that at this stage?
Again, go back to the email she sent you about getting together.
When her emails don't send you spinning, you're probably closer to being detached. Then think about letting her in a little.
If you not responding to her every email or text sends her into OM arms, she was never really out of them.
Yea i haven't updated in awhile, She's back home and we are working through things it's been a filled with many up's and downs but I can honestly say i'm so much better for the sitch as much as I hated it. I think our sitch have lot's incommon. Like you all we have no kids together and I always thought she had no reason to return, but not so... The only constant in life is change, and what they feel today might not be the same tomorrow. In my sitch there wasn't OM that I know of and like you I snooped! All the time, maybe not what's reccommended but i've always liked to know what i'm facing. The thing is I was strong enough to not confront whenever I saw a number I didn't know or when she talked about me on FB to friends(Had her pw). Doesn't work for all but to each his own... The site is a GREAT resource but nothing any of us say here is infalliable after all we are all human. Do you what works for you, I asked an old lady the other day who'd been married for 65 years what the secret was she said "Endless patience, and no matter how crazy or wrong you think the other person is you are just as wrong and crazy!" That touched me deep and it's really that simple...
Let grace and mercy be your guide, doesn't mean take whatever or tolerate infidelity, just remember we all fall short.
If you not responding to her every email or text sends her into OM arms, she was never really out of them.
Def agree one of the biggest mistakes I made was operating out of fear. DON'T let fear dictate!
with no expectations.
Can you truly do that at this stage?
Again, go back to the email she sent you about getting together.
When her emails don't send you spinning, you're probably closer to being detached. Then think about letting her in a little.
If you not responding to her every email or text sends her into OM arms, she was never really out of them.
I guess I don't know if I can do it with no expectations until I try. Her email did send me spinning but only for a short time. I feel like I am pretty well grounded right now but maybe I'm not - the only way to know that for sure is to have interactions with her, right?
I don't think I am suggesting that she will run to the OM if I ignore her but I don't want to make it so uncomfortable for her to approach me that she won't do it. I read her initial email about it being weird not talking to me as essentially saying 'i miss you.' If that's her testing the waters to see if its safe for her to be vulnerable around me without me either: 1) pressuring her to get right back into working on things or 2) telling her to piss off, then I guess I feel like I owe it to myself to hear her out. If I do end up expecting things and I am not as ready as I thought, then I have to 1) learn my lesson for the next time and 2) not let her see that I had expectations so that she does still feel comfortable approaching me.
I guess what I am saying is that I don't know until I try. Its about trying things and seeing what works, right?
Again - please please please tell me if I am really missing the boat on this....
Did you tell her what your boundaries are?
-PM
The only one that's relevant to the current situation is the standard for infidelity: We will not work on our relationship while you are involved in another.
She has been told this.
I don't think I am suggesting that she will run to the OM if I ignore her but I don't want to make it so uncomfortable for her to approach me that she won't do it.
This I see where you are coming from.
But then you say:
I read her initial email about it being weird not talking to me as essentially saying 'i miss you.'
That's you mind reading and coming up with expectations based on your interpretation.
(I am
really good at spotting when other people are doing this, still working on spotting it in my own sitch.)
I suppose you could also restate your boundary. "W, I am happy to meet up with you (check in with you, talk to you, whatever) - if and when you have ended your R with OM."
I guess it could be mind reading but do you have another way to interpret:
I guess I was so used to hearing from you that it's been weird not hearing from you.
Without looking into why she might miss me or what she intends to do about it (if anything) - which would be mind reading - i don't think there's any other way to interpret the basic message.
I haven't addressed whether I will meet her or not or what to say when she does call. Its still days away and these situations can change on a daily basis. Who knows if she even will call or propose to meet up. I have not responded at all to her last email and have some time still to mull over what I will do.
Your suggestion is actually a very good one M.
I guess it could be mind reading but do you have another way to interpret:
I guess I was so used to hearing from you that it's been weird not hearing from you.
Without looking into why she might miss me or what she intends to do about it (if anything) - which would be mind reading - i don't think there's any other way to interpret the basic message.
How does "it's weird not hearing from you" mean "I miss you?"
It could just as easily mean just what it says - "it's weird."
or, "I'm surprised you aren't pursuing me."
or, "I'm worried that you aren't on my hook anymore."
or, for all you know, "I like cheese."
I guess it could be mind reading but do you have another way to interpret:
I guess I was so used to hearing from you that it's been weird not hearing from you.
Without looking into why she might miss me or what she intends to do about it (if anything) - which would be mind reading - i don't think there's any other way to interpret the basic message.
How does "it's weird not hearing from you" mean "I miss you?"
It could just as easily mean just what it says - "it's weird."
or, "I'm surprised you aren't pursuing me."
or, "I'm worried that you aren't on my hook anymore."
or, for all you know, "I like cheese."
IDK M. I buy into the whole don't mind read but at some level, we all have a decent understanding of some basic human interactions and I don't think turning this into a completely robotic process helps and at some point, we have to assume things. I don't think any of us expect that people are always going to tell us exactly what they feel/think in plain, unequivocal language - especially when its such an emotional topic.
I think the basic assumption we all have to make when we DB is that our WAS isn't a 'bad' person. They don't manipulate for the sheer joy of having someone on the string. They are legitimately confused and are acting on confusing thoughts/needs.
We can sit here and argue semantics but i think when you are talking about human emotions, "weird" generally means strange and perhaps uncomfortable. So she's noticing that I am not there anymore and on some level it has taken her out of her comfort zone. Again - I am not implying that it means shes ready to work on things or ready to end the A or any of that - that most definitely would be mind-reading. Her motives may be what you said - I want you to pursue me, or I want the comfort of knowing that you're there but either way her statement conveys that she's lost something and recognizes it.
I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with cheese.
The only one that's relevant to the current situation is the standard for infidelity: We will not work on our relationship while you are involved in another.
She has been told this.
I think it's clear that she either doesn't think communicating with you violates that boundary or she does, but doesn't care.
You're getting good advice. Listen to it.
-PM
Or maybe she's ready to meet the condition? Is that a possibility? Perhaps an unlikely one but a possibility nonetheless? How do I know if I don't communicate with her? Is my expectation that in order for me to speak with her again, her next communication to me has to be along the lines of 'I am ready to commit to you again'? Is that realistic?
Dingo, if she has dumped the OM and is serious about working on your M, she knows how to say that to you. If she misses you, she could surely say so. In fact, I think she has said those very words to you before.
I'm not saying that she is a horrible person, delighting in pulling your puppet strings. But she is your W, and she is having an affair, so I'm not sure why you are so bent on giving her the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, she is being very selfish right now.
I totally get how you feel, because I was in the same place not long ago. I found myself arguing with the advice I was getting and not wanting to take it, because it wasn't what I wanted to hear. But for those of us who are not knee deep in your muck, your sitch, your W's behavior, and your behavior are much clearer.
Right now you are grasping for signs that she has dumped the OM and wants to R with you. But she has said nothing of the sort.
I'm not trying to be mean. I hope that she does want to R, and I hope that you two work things out. I truly do.
Look, maybe you shouldn't be taking advice from me, since I will apparently be getting D rather soon, but if I were you, I would quit all the pussyfooting around and just repeat the boundary.
"W, let me know when you have broken things off with the OM. Then I will be happy to meet up with you and talk."
I think if you continue what you are doing right now, you are just printing your own ticket for your own roller coaster.
Ugh Dingo. I feel like I could be reading my own thoughts. It is hard to not read into what your spouse is saying...it does seem like mixed signals....I over analyze interactions I have with H.
I wish I had advice
. Hang I there.
Dingo, if she has dumped the OM and is serious about working on your M, she knows how to say that to you. If she misses you, she could surely say so. In fact, I think she has said those very words to you before.
I'm not saying that she is a horrible person, delighting in pulling your puppet strings. But she is your W, and she is having an affair, so I'm not sure why you are so bent on giving her the benefit of the doubt. At the very least, she is being very selfish right now.
I totally get how you feel, because I was in the same place not long ago. I found myself arguing with the advice I was getting and not wanting to take it, because it wasn't what I wanted to hear. But for those of us who are not knee deep in your muck, your sitch, your W's behavior, and your behavior are much clearer.
Right now you are grasping for signs that she has dumped the OM and wants to R with you. But she has said nothing of the sort.
I'm not trying to be mean. I hope that she does want to R, and I hope that you two work things out. I truly do.
Look, maybe you shouldn't be taking advice from me, since I will apparently be getting D rather soon, but if I were you, I would quit all the pussyfooting around and just repeat the boundary.
"W, let me know when you have broken things off with the OM. Then I will be happy to meet up with you and talk."
I think if you continue what you are doing right now, you are just printing your own ticket for your own roller coaster.
That's just it M. I am not looking for signs of anything. I am not assuming that she's made some dramatic turnaround and is ready to jump into my arms again and all is well in dingoworld for the rest of our fairytale lives. Or if I am, its the fact that I READ her email that caused that, not the fact that I responded to it.
I think everyone assumes that I am thinking that everything is solved - but maybe that's mind-reading too. Who knows.
The only things I said were:
1. There is something that she is missing by not having regular contact with me. (FACT - at least to the extent that you can believe her words)
2. I don't know what the current state of the affair is (FACT)
3. I do not see the harm in a completely bland and emotionless response to an email after being prompted 3 times to answer her.
4. Nobody on these boards, including me, have any idea what she is thinking - if she is playing games or not (FACT)
I find it very hard to believe that anyone here expects that after a period of NC (as short as this one may be) that the first communication from a WAS should be nothing short of 'the affair is over - I am ready to work on things again'. Is there a single case on these boards where this has happened? Where someone got an email out of the blue that said 'sorry spouse, we havent spoke in X days because you've been ignoring me but I want to work on a relationship with you'. Frankly, I think its ridiculous to even suggest that would happen.
I am also waiting for someone to explain to me how my response showed anything other than 'loving detachment'. I am also waiting for someone to show me a scenario (other than the one above) where an estranged couple have positive interactions and begin to turn things around by one person ignoring the other. How do I 'leave a smooth path for the WAS to return home' if I ignore her?
I DID NOT agree to meet with her and I DID NOT agree to talk to her. Honestly, I don't think I need to restate my boundaries. They've been stated more times than they needed to be as it is.
How do I know if I can handle an interaction without expectations unless I have an interaction? How do I show her positive changes I've made unless I interact with her? How do I know if she's done the work and had a change of heart if I don't interact with her? How do I challenge the changes Ive made unless I put them to the test? Maybe I am not as ready as I think I am but how do I know if I refuse to try?
You asked why I give her the benefit of the doubt when she's having an affair M. The answer is because through reading this site and many books, I can empathize with what she's going through. Because I realize that she's in a lot of pain too and her life has been turned upside down just as much (if not more so than mine). Because I recognize that I am partly responsible for putting her there.
Maybe she is being selfish and maybe she isn't. Maybe she doesn't care about my boundaries. Maybe she's had a change of heart. How do I know if I ignore her?
Sorry Bug - I disagree with your statement on boundaries. If I am not interacting with her because she hurt me emotionally, then that boundary is enforced from a place of fear. Fear that I will be hurt again. If she can't hurt me emotionally because I have completely detached or because I am strong enough emotionally that it doesn't affect me, then there is no longer any need for the boundary.
I don't mean to sound indignant or unappreciative. I come here for help and for a place to help me deal with this terrible situation but I am completely confused by this recent string of advice. Not because its not what I want to hear but because it seems to defy logic.
Here's an article that I am sure most of you have read but maybe ought to re-read.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htm
Dingo, I think you make some really valid points. I am no expert, as I am muddling through my own mess. If it is any help, I will say this...
The only person that really knows you and your situation is you. Even though it might seem like your W is a different person, you probably know her best...even if it might seem like "mind reading" or putting your own "spin" on what she is saying, there probably is a bit of truth to what you are thinking/interpreting. Sometimes you have to go with your gut and do what You feel is best. At this point, do you have any more to lose? I have done some DB'ing things and they have worked and I have also done things that aren't exactly DB'ing and they have also worked.
I also agree with you statement that even though your W may have OM, she probably had a reason for doing what she is doing. She probably is hurting a lot. From my own experience, I realize why my H would find comfort in someone else. I'm not saying I condone his behavior or agree with what he has done but knowing where I and we went wrong in our R, I understand.
I think there is alot of really great advice and input on everones' posts and think it's great to take all input into consideration but in the end this is your life and your journey. Do what you think is best for you. Sometimes you might get it right, sometimes you might get it wrong. You won't know unless you try.
That's my 2 cents, for what it's worth
.
Dingo, you're welcome to disagree with me anytime you want. But I definitely disagree that setting a boundary that protects you is fear-based. Boundaries are necessary for a strong, healthy R. Living fear-based is not setting a boundary for fear of making the other person unhappy.
If you feel good about the email you sent, then feel good about it. But I think something must be niggling you or you wouldn't be disagreeing so strongly. I'm always the most defensive when I'm trying to convince myself that I'm right.
We have only what you've written about your W to go on. I think she's confused and maybe a bit scared but the mindset of the WAS very rarely has anything to do with what I post to people.
I just read back through your threads and she hasn't been consistent for more than a couple of days since you've been on the boards. If I've misread, please let me know.
What do you need to see/hear from her to feel confident in re-engaging?
"Here's an article that I am sure most of you have read but maybe ought to re-read.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htm"
That article brought me back to my last 14 month break up. I was exactly that person. I was someone she could trust with her issues. Big or small I was someone she could trust.
Honestly, this is what brought my ex back last time. We both dated during our 14 months apart, but I was always a friend to her. Someone she could trust with all of her problems. I believe I'm still the only one she talks to about her problems. It's about perception, I may be viewed as her emotional tampon to some, but I also may be viewed as a great friend to others. I prefer to look at myself as the great friend.
I'm not too familiar with your sitch but the last few posts caught my eye.
I hope you figure it out.
Dingo, you're welcome to disagree with me anytime you want. But I definitely disagree that setting a boundary that protects you is fear-based. Boundaries are necessary for a strong, healthy R. Living fear-based is not setting a boundary for fear of making the other person unhappy.
If you feel good about the email you sent, then feel good about it. But I think something must be niggling you or you wouldn't be disagreeing so strongly. I'm always the most defensive when I'm trying to convince myself that I'm right.
We have only what you've written about your W to go on. I think she's confused and maybe a bit scared but the mindset of the WAS very rarely has anything to do with what I post to people.
I just read back through your threads and she hasn't been consistent for more than a couple of days since you've been on the boards. If I've misread, please let me know.
What do you need to see/hear from her to feel confident in re-engaging?
I agree that boundaries are important and necessary to a good relationship - with anyone, not just a marriage. However, at the very basic level, if something is there to protect us, then the thing that it protects us from is something we fear, or at the very least something that makes us uncomfortable. I am not saying that its the same as being a doormat and allowing yourself to be subjected to all kinds of emotional pains because you are afraid of making your partner/friend/whatever the relation is unhappy. But it is living fear-based to not challenge these boundaries just like it would be living fear-based to never drive a car because you're afraid you'll get into an accident.
There are plenty of people here who have completely detached and moved on with their lives. They have started to date other people, maybe even married other people and their X-spouses have done the same. They don't need the boundary that I need because they no longer fear what seeing their spouse with someone else can do to them emotionally.
I do feel good about the email. What's niggling me is that I do see some positives from her actions over the past month and also the past week. I probably do have some more hope than I had prior to receiving that email. I am definitely not 100% detached and she does still affect me emotionally. However, my challenge to myself is to see if I can have a positive interaction with her regardless. If I can not let it show that she can affect me. If I can not pressure and not react. Maybe I am not ready for that and maybe I am - how do I know if I don't try?
Generally her flip flopping has happened on a cycle of 3-4 weeks.
My question still is - how do I know where I stand and where she stands unless I interact with her?
I am not initiating. What is the harm in responding. Doesn't it show her that I am strong enough to respond without falling apart and begging her to come back. Doesn't ignoring her tell her that I can't handle it?
Your last question is a very important one that I just do not know the answer to yet.
Dingo, I believe that each of us has a unique situation. Nothing is "cookie cutter". Begging or pleading wont help you or W. But you want to reach out to test things. I could be wrong here....its your W and your M. What do you want? Personally, I think if you reach out and have the understanding when you do, that this could be a problem, but when you reach out you a confident and strong and you keep it simple, then you'll. Probably be fine. You don't need our permission or agreement. There or no mistakes only learning opportunities.
I agree with Paul. If you're at a place where you can be teflon-man and her cycling doesn't keep you on the proverbial roller-coaster, then go for it. Interact as much as you feel comfortable.
I got that way in my R (of course it took me a lot longer). H and I could interact and I wasn't emotionally rocked by his response or lack of response. Life was good and that's when we tentatively started a R. But your W is in a very different place than my H was at the time.
Doesn't it show her that I am strong enough to respond without falling apart and begging her to come back. Doesn't ignoring her tell her that I can't handle it?
Mind reading. We don't know what she takes away from your actions.
I don't often advocate acting to "show" people things, do it because it's what's best for you, it's who you are. If we're doing things only for effect, our actions (changes) are seldom sustainable.
If you can do what you do with dignity, compassion and empathy, maintaining your boundaries and having NO EXPECTATIONS, you'll be good.
dignity, compassion and empathy,
I left out honesty and the truth that you have to have these for yourself before you can give them to others.
First, thanks for the clarification that you did not suggest to her to meet up later. I did misunderstand.
Lord knows I wish I could be more like bug and advina! I so admire their ability to show class, maturity, and calmness. But me.....well I tend to get tacky when I'm trying to nail down my points on a subject. I don't want to do that, so I have to step back and just breathe.......and then delete the loooong post I was going to send yesterday. Now, I haven't changed my opinion, but maybe I won't sound as if I'm attacking anyone.
Dingo, I have read a lot of posts filled with different advice for the LBS over the years. It is not uncommon for the person who is receiving the advice to keep searching until he finds one he likes. Bottom line is that most of us usually do what we want to do.....and not b/c another person advised us differently. There are exceptions, of course, and there are some who are willing -- only after facing many failures. I wonder if you are trying to find someone who will agree with what it is you really want to do.
Yes, I have read that article from MWD about David and the BFF approach in his stitch. I never saw his thread on the board, which doesn't mean anything except others searched too, unsuccessfully. I don't want my statements to be misunderstood about MWD's article, but I personally have not seen one stitch where the BFF approached worked with a WAW in an A. Let me clarify what I mean by "work". I am referring to the W's sexual desire, attraction and respect for her H being restored in the M. Now if he wants to just be best friends with her....then that suits a lot of women just fine! And they may live together from now on.......in a sexually starved marriage.
Here's the problem with that approach. The WAW who is having an A has lost her respect somewhere along the line for the LBH as a man. That usually happens first, then she loses her sexual desire for him as her H. With a woman, she has to respect him as a man....in order to be sexually attracted to him. Oh sure, they can fake it. Women have done it for centuries...all the time their H's would being saying, "Oh, I would know if she was faking!". And he has no idea how vulnerable she is to having an A b/c her deepest, emotional needs are not being met. Look how many stories are here on the board where the LBH says in his first post that he had no idea things were that bad!
I have read hundreds of threads right here on this board about a LBH maintaining a great friendship with his WAW, while they were S and all the time she openingly conducted. Her A. She gets her sexual needs fulfilled by OM, and she gets her other needs met by her BFF (LBH). Whatever her favorite cake might be, LBH is eager to serve. He's fine for her friend, but sadly, she has no sexual attraction for him. Plus, due to him putting himself into this BFF status with her, it ties him emotionally where it is extremely difficult for him not to hold out hope, even have expectations, and prevents him from moving on with his life. It is like a death trap.
Even I wanted to keep my H for a good friend, but I had lost sexual attraction for him as a man. It really shook me when he told me we would not be "friends" if I left the M. Now remember, there is a difference in being friends and being friend--ly. One decribes a relationship and one decribes nice manners. If I had to choose what I believe most men would want in their MR, I would say they prefer the W have respect (admiration) for him as a man. He can be friends with anyone, but he wants this woman to be sexually attracted to him as a man.
When a couple has been torn apart by an A, there needs to be a process in order for them to make it as a happy couple. And yes, during that process, "one" area among many things is to like each other again......or as some would say, become friends again. They need to be able to stay in the same room without getting into a fight and show consideration toward one another, etc., etc. But I simply have not been convinced that a woman who has chosen another man over her own H...can be attracted to a man who thinks so little of himself that he would consider being her friend while she continues to sleep with another man. Why on earth would any man think that was attractive? If anything, it would cause her to disrespect him even more. He stops being a man in her eyes.
Perhaps I have simply missed it, but MWD's one article of David's approach is the only one of that kind that I have ever seen in any of the many materials I've read over the years. Maybe, if it worked for you, your story could be the second.
Like I said, you will pick the advice you want to follow. If I can help you or anyone, then I am more than happy to try. But I can just say so much. You said if there was another way to tell you what it was, but I have tried to tell you in the very beginning.
Point taken on the mindreading bug. You are correct - we have no idea what she takes away from any interaction.
I also understand what you're saying about how long it took to get there and how you and your husband were in a very different place than my wife and I are. I was not suggesting that I am there (maybe it came across that way). I was merely asking how I know if I am there or not, unless I interact.
Sandi - I am also not suggesting that I want to be in the type of BFF relationship you describe. I was merely pointing that article out as something that MWD thought enough of to write about. Its an interesting concept.
I am also not looking for someone to tell me what I want to hear. I don't even know what I want to do regarding future contact with my wife in the short term so there is no advice that I am specifically looking for. I am not asking for anyone to tell me its ok to meet with her.
What I did ask and I would like to hear opinions on are the following:
1. Are you suggesting that before I respond to my wife in any way, shape or form, that she has to begin a conversation with something along the lines of 'the affair is over, I want to re-commit'?
2. Is this realistic? Does this actually happen after weeks/months of no contact/ignored attempts at contact? Or is it more realistic for the WAS to approach slowly, maybe ask to meet up to discuss it in person?
3. In your opinion, what is wrong with the response that I sent to my wife after she repeatedly asked me to respond to her?
4. Did the fact that I responded and the manner in which I responded cause her to lose respect for me, in your opinion?
(because I chose to talk with someone who is actively (or not - who knows) cheating on me)
5. Where in my response or in any of my subsequent posts did it come across that I wanted to be her friend as opposed to just being friendly?
I obviously value your opinion and bug's and any of the others that take the time to post on my thread. I wouldn't ask for it if I didn't. I am sorry if this is coming across otherwise.
BTW - i respond just as well to direct, plain english as I do to calmness, maturity and class. :P
BTW - i respond just as well to direct, plain english as I do to calmness, maturity and class. :P
. Good thing!
I think a already responded to most of your questions if not directly then indirectly.
I'm not making myself understood about the email response. Forget about what was said or not said for a minute. Just take your focus off the words in your response for right now. The issue or point I was trying to get across was I thought you were going to stop contacting and you had decided to give her space. I thought you were going to stop being available when she called, TM, or emailed. I was trying my best to encourage and support you through what we knew was going to be like "withdrawal pains" for you. The fact you didn't answer her first two, three or ever how many emails is not a drop in the bucket! I got the impression you thought that was enough time to merit breaking the NC.
You have been giving all kinds of rationalizations about it.
You have to make up your mind. Dingo, about your plan of action. You may think you've had one or have been sticking to one, but It has to be longer than a week or so. It's like a weight loss diet, if you decide to eat sugar every few days, you aren't going to achieve your desired goal.
You say you have clearly laid out your boundary and do not feel it needs to be said again. I believe you said it had been told to her too many times as is. I agree! But the problem is she doesn't buy it b/c she is seeing a man who is too eager to come running when he hears from her. I'm trying to tell you what it is like from her POV and that mindset of a WAW who has one foot in an A and one foot in the M. Sweetie you have to be tough and firm b/c she has to see a man with strength and integrity. And, it is possible, and i think necessary, to do that without being mean, nasty, or cold-hearted. But your fear of losing her is over-riding everything else.....and has been since
you first found out about the A. Until you deal with your fear, I don't think you will be able to be a confident man who stops making this all about
her and finally decides to take space for himself to think about what he deserves. And you do deserve to have a W who loves you more than some possible OM right around the next corner. She has admitted this OM may not be the one, but she wants to see if there is another one. Do want to live the rest of your life snooping around to see if she has found that other person? Now listen carefully please, if your fear is greater than your dignity as a man......then she can see it. I promise you she will never be attracted to you if you operate from a position of fear. You will never be "enough" for her and she will continue to search for the next AP.
So make up your mind what you want, so we can keep up. We know she can't stay on the same decision for two days straight, but I read one night you weren't responding and the next time I looked......wham! Just remember I'm not the bad guy here, okay? I really do want to help and have an idea so don't let me forget to go back and talk about
it.
Okay, I will try to answer those questions:
1. Are you suggesting that before I respond to my wife in any
way, shape or form, that she has to begin a conversation with
something along the lines of 'the affair is over, I want to
re-commit'?
I don't know if that is directed at me or Bug, but I don't remember suggesting any particular words she must use to began her conversations, However, I agree with what Melissa said. If she really was fed up with OM and has once and for all ended the A, I doubt she would have used the words she did with you. You saw her message as "missing you" but I don't think we women saw that at all. When thethings with OM is finally over, and she is no longer playing games (maybe she wants to date others to see, etc) and is serious about never wanting to lay eyes on him again as long as she lives (if she even mentioms his name. And btw, this has to be different than her getting mad at him and turning back to you out of spite to him. That is why you cannot wait around to think this other guy is going to step out of the picture and make things easy for you. He is not your problem! This is what I try to tell the LBH'S, and even she has said she may shop around if it doesn't work out with him.
Some women don't talk about the AP when the A has ended, but you will get a softer, more humble, sounding email. If you had been doing what you should have done since it first happened, she would know that you havenothing to discuss with her unless she has ended the A.That was the boundary. Wasn't it? What is there to talk a out if there is a third person in the M? This other stuff from her about meeting up to talk? I think
it will be more of the same you experienced before. You are wanting to see or read meaning into it that's not there.......b/c things have not "processed" yet?
2. Is this realistic? Does this actually happen after weeks/months of no contact/ignored attempts at contact? Or is it more realistic for the WAS to approach slowly, maybe ask to meet up to discuss it in person?
Yes, it is realistic after she ends things and stops the notion of shopping around for someone better. That second part of your question is the mindset of a LBH, and sound reasonable, doesn't it. But you have not been out of her life enough for her to get through the process a WAW in an A needs to do. You are wishfully thinking you can meet up and slowly get around to R. She has to have a longer time without dingo in her life. When she contacted you, it was a hook, and you bit.
I have already answered questions 3 & 4.
5. Where in my response or in any of my subsequent posts did it come across that I wanted to be her friend as opposed to just being friendly?
Again, I am not referring to the words in your response. You bit the hook and she is reeling you in. Look how much time, focus, and energy you have put I to rationalizing your response and the whole friendship thing. Look at how much time I have tried to help you get your head on straight after just one response to her.
Finally, it will not work to try to be her friend at this point and time of the process. You deceive yourself and It confuses her vision of your boundary! I don't know what else to say to get you to see it. . After a much longer period of NC and space........then you might try, but for now, you will get more of the same b/c nothing has changed!
Sandi2 makes a lot of sense. I haven't been following your entire thread but if sandi feels you're not in the right stage to be "friends" it seems like it would make sense to stick with your boundaries.
I believe there is a time and place for everything. Seems like the people here don't believe it's the right time for you to be engaging in your w.
Dingo, in essence then, your W was 'pinging' you to see if you were still on the hook...(according to my understanding of the stuff above). She wants to stay in a fantasy that says she has all the time and choices in the world. Dingo's in the for the long haul.
Sandi, did I paraphrase this correctly or am I misunderstanding. and if I'm correct, damn that's not a nice thing for people to do....
I forgot to got get back around to the idea I mentioned last time. If you make up your mind to stick with NC and giving/taking space, you can let her know at meet-up, if it happens. If you discover she really is just doing more of the same behavior, you need to speak up and let her know that "you" are the one who needs space from her now. Tell her "you" need to think about what "you" want from this point forward, and to do what is best for "you".
Sound a little self-centered? It's okay. I am saying all of this hoping you won't do it just as a tactic to get the girl in the end, but b/c you get your eyes opened and stop making everything about her. You may even have to spell it out and tell her, "W, this is about me and what I deserve, and I deserve to have a wife who loves me completely and I don't have to worry about her being faithful".
You see, by saying that, you take back the power over your life. You've been waiting to see what OM decides to do......hoping she would return to you if he pulled out. What kind of MR is that? What kind of life is that? Start doing what is best for your life by "your own decisions" and not what your W decides......and certainly not what some other guy decides.
The only way this succeeds is for you to be not just "ready" to walk away from her.....but actually do it. Otherwise, you hesitate and wait just a second or two to see how she is going to react to this information........and by waiting to see if she tries to persuade you not to........you've lost. You relented again. You have handed her the power over your life again. She sees it nothing more than a tactic on your part, so it in the long run, it is not successful for a y means.
I believe the only way you will be free of your fear is to take back the control over your life. Let her go.
You are so afraid she won't get her act together and come after you, that it has paralyzed you into being less than what you can be.
Letting her go is the first step.
Sandi, did I paraphrase this correctly or am I misunderstanding. and if I'm correct, damn that's not a nice thing for people to do....
Yes! And you used such fewer words to say it!
Sandi, did I paraphrase this correctly or am I misunderstanding. and if I'm correct, damn that's not a nice thing for people to do....
Yes! And you used such fewer words to say it!
Sandi, then I second what you just by paraphrasing again for Dingo. if you we watching anybody else go thru this, would you tell them to tell the person to "...go pound sand" until they could get their act together and then maybe you would think about being around for them (if you were still available...)
not as a tactic, but seriously do it. Take you life back. you don't have to actually those words, but think like that...."the heck with you!....you don't treat me nice and the world is full o people who will....get your sh!t together..." something like that
sorry for the typos, but you get my meaning. Sandi you are the master! I am always amazed by your insights and I realize they came at a cost to you. You had to earn it.
In a stitch where you have a WAW in an A............and especially when she has said that even if OM doesn't work out that she wants to see what elseis out there (or words to the effect she wants to window shop to sleep with someone else), I would tell that LBH to drop the rope immediately. When there are no children, I believe going dark works better, but so many men are afraid it ends any chance of R. Which really shows that he is being clingy and needy......and assures no chance or hope for a good outcome.
I say this about those women in an affairs. I believe that has a whole can of worms that a WAW who is not in an A has. That is why I try to add the part "who are in an A". I personally believe it calls for a tougher love than the majority of newcomers are willing to apply. The WAW in an A can be selfish, cruel, unrealistic, rebellious, irresponsible, untrustworthy, deceitful, and unstable. That is what you are dealing with!
What may work in a stitch where the WAW is not in some type of an A..........will probably not work the same or as well in the stitch where she has walked away or wants out b/c of another person. The things that can be applied in both are the 37 do's & don't tips, but if there is an A, the LBH better gear up for a tougher time of it. When she isn't messed up by some A, then the LBH becoming a man only a fool would leave works great! And no disrespect intended toward my fellow board member from whence that saying came, once the WAW is involved in an adulterous A, she may already be at that place of being a "fool" that doesn't see her H's wonderful changes. At the risk of criticism at this anology, she often needs something like an emotional slap in her face, in order to bring back her senses. Sadly, nothing is a garantee.....especially when she's too far gone or she sees the wrong actions from the LBH.
Wow guys - thanks for all the great responses. There's a lot in here for me to think about.
My wife did call me this afternoon and I did pick up the phone. She started in with a bunch of small talk, telling me about her family and her weekend, etc. After a minute or so, I stopped her and reminded her that we agreed that we weren't going to talk until she was 100% done with the affair. I asked her if that was the case. She told me that she hadn't seen him or talked to him in a few weeks and that she was working on it but its hard because she doesn't know what's "right for her" (fvcking hate that phrase). She has an appointment with an IC this week and still wants to talk to a DB coach. She accused me of seeing someone else (apparently that's what she assumed when I didn't respond to her emails right away). I told her that I was trying to respect her need for space to figure herself out and that she needed to do the same to allow me to figure out what I wanted. She responded with 'I thought you wanted to work on our marriage'.
Anyway - the call lasted just over 5 minutes or so and ended with me again reminding her to respect what I was asking her for which was NC until affair is over.
I am going over to a friend's house to watch the game but I will post more later/tomorrow.
One thing I did want to ask Sandi is where you got the impression that my wife wanted to see what else was out there beyond the OM? I don't recall her ever saying anything like that to me.
Wow guys - thanks for all the great responses. There's a lot in here for me to think about.
My wife did call me this afternoon and I did pick up the phone. She started in with a bunch of small talk, telling me about her family and her weekend, etc. After a minute or so, I stopped her and reminded her that we agreed that we weren't going to talk until she was 100% done with the affair. I asked her if that was the case. She told me that she hadn't seen him or talked to him in a few weeks and that she was working on it but its hard because she doesn't know what's "right for her" (fvcking hate that phrase). She has an appointment with an IC this week and still wants to talk to a DB coach. She accused me of seeing someone else (apparently that's what she assumed when I didn't respond to her emails right away). I told her that I was trying to respect her need for space to figure herself out and that she needed to do the same to allow me to figure out what I wanted. She responded with 'I thought you wanted to work on our marriage'.
Anyway - the call lasted just over 5 minutes or so and ended with me again reminding her to respect what I was asking her for which was NC until affair is over.
I am going over to a friend's house to watch the game but I will post more later/tomorrow.
One thing I did want to ask Sandi is where you got the impression that my wife wanted to see what else was out there beyond the OM? I don't recall her ever saying anything like that to me.
you da man! Nice job. Enjoy the game. Do you feel good about it?
One other thing. Not uncommon I wouod think to feel resentful even now that she's approaching you. Just be aware of it.
Did she not say something to the effect that she didn't know if he was the right one, but if it not that she might consider dating? I can't remember exact words, but I thought you told us. If I'm wrong, I apologize.
I'm glad you told her about giving you time to think about what you want. See how surprised she was? She is taking you for granted that you will stay near by......as her plan B.
I will warn you about something. Don't get into her accusing you of seeing someone else, or whatever she said was why you didn't answer her email. That is the same as putting pressure on you to make sure you prove to her you are always there for her! Never make any promises, never swear you won't see someone or do anything you choose to do! I don't know the tone she used, but she was fishing again.
Leave her wondering! You don't have to give an account. You have not been the one unfaithful.
So, did you ask her not to contact you so "you" could have space to sort things out?
Hi ~ hope its ok, I'd like to chime in...
Dingo, you are getting awesome advice from Sandi..... I am in a similar boat, however getting a different perspective on my thread... (probably because I didn't understand and couldn't grasp things, until this weekend)... Its weird, when you read another's story, you can see the advice so much clearer.... Maybe if you read mine, you may pick up some valuable tips.
I particularly like what sandi said:
"I will warn you about something. Don't get into her accusing you of seeing someone else, or whatever she said was why you didn't answer her email. That is the same as putting pressure on you to make sure you prove to her you are always there for her! Never make any promises, never swear you won't see someone or do anything you choose to do! I don't know the tone she used, but she was fishing again.
Leave her wondering! You don't have to give an account. You have not been the one unfaithful. "
I wonder, if she would say the same in my sitch? Just this past weekend, My h went "fishing" for these answers from me, as he says that "thinking/believing" I was dating made him make the decisions he has made (to try to move on)...or is THAT BS!! and reaching for an excuse to lessen the guilt of his dating scene? I wonder if it was "wrong" to inform him that I am not dating. I TOTALLY proved to him that I WAS STILL HERE (oops)...therefore he can carry the guilt? Or did telling him I am not dating also give him a sense of relief and is now consistently being nicer & way more responsive towards me (and has said he is considering reconciliation, but "doesn't know")..... hmmmmmm, things to think about.
Over the weekend, I gave my h the "boundary" speech... to which I thought was part of DB'ing.... although on my thread it is considered a controlling ultimatum (and I am told not to do)....this is confusing to me, as I was not intentional on the controlling part, but to state/protect myself. Just this past weekend, I also invited h to spend time at my place just to hang out, when he declined (disappointed) as I felt that I had laid all my cards on the table that said "here I am waiting and waiting"... so when he texted me later that night I said "can't chat, heading out"... it was the truth, but a bit of reality to say and to bring myself back into the position "i haven't been dating, but Im putting myself in a place that it may happen". Hopefully, he doesn't see it as a game, but the reality.
When Sandi says "Now listen carefully please, if your fear is greater than your dignity as a man......then she can see it. I promise you she will never be attracted to you if you operate from a position of fear. You will never be "enough" for her and she will continue to search for the next AP.".... I have this exact fear too, so reading it on your thread was clear... WE do not want to look pathetic/desperate...its not attractive to them.
As Paul19501 suggests.... both your wife and my h, are keeping their options open. This [censored]. And like you, I do not know how to be or respond.... I will however, value myself FIRST and know that I deserve better than this state of confusion.
I really like how Sandi suggests this for you, I wonder if she would suggest the same to me (it may conflict what others on my thread suggest...or maybe more of the same): "you need to speak up and let her know that "you" are the one who needs space from her now. Tell her "you" need to think about what "you" want from this point forward, and to do what is best for "you".
Sound a little self-centered? It's okay. I am saying all of this hoping you won't do it just as a tactic to get the girl in the end, but b/c you get your eyes opened and stop making everything about her. You may even have to spell it out and tell her, "W, this is about me and what I deserve, and I deserve to have a wife who loves me completely and I don't have to worry about her being faithful".
I hope this does not come across as a hijack on your thread. I just wanted to pop in and say that the advice you are getting differs from mine (its a different angle, but ALL GOOD)... I like all the advice, comments and welcome Sandi's opinion/experience too.
Good luck Dingo, I will continue to read on!!!
Magic
Dingo, use the time you asked for wisely, to really dig deep and figure out who you are, what you want in life, your values.
People without those things (and here it comes
) and without strong boundaries lose themselves in Rs. They aren't even really "there" to their partners. They become more of a convenience in some areas and a hindrance in others. Does that make sense?
While you're taking your time, do read Codependent No More.
I just read another thread and Acc wrote this, which gets to the heart of what I wrote above:
I think your bar for success should be your own personal growth independent from the marriage. I would focus on why you found yourself one down in your marriage and what you can do to prevent that from happening going forward. From my cheap seats in the bleachers your challenge is not deficiency as a spouse -- it's more an issue of self worth and boundary enforcement. Nail that and you are likely to have a happy wife because you are a confident no compromises husband.
I fear that seeking to "better meet her needs" will deepen your one down position. You probably have more of a challenge in demanding that your needs be met.
I would put all the affair and marriage healing thoughts on hold and dig way deep on you first. If you do that well the marriage and affair recovery will fall into place.
Don't take this the wrong way, you're not a basket case or a pushover or anything, just a guy with vulnerabilities ...
makingmagic, why don't you just ask sandi? Do you communicate with your H in this circuitous way?
Be direct, ask for what you need. What's the worst that could happen?
Hey Labug... I would like to ask for Sandi's advice... but, didn't know how to reach her exactly... she may be too busy helping others, and I don't want to "assume" she wants to help another.
Thanks, Magic
Thanks for chiming in MM. Feel free to hijack away. I think we can all learn from each other's experiences and from advice given. I will take some time to catch up on your thread later this afternoon.
I wanted to take some time and just post some thoughts I have had since my conversation with my wife yesterday and reading some of the subsequent posts.
I don't know if i feel 'good' about things after my discussion with her. I do feel that I deserve more than I am getting - a lot more than I am getting but what is keeping me stuck is the commitment I made (for better or worse - bleh) and the fact that I recognize that I am partly responsible for the situation because of where I was emotionally earlier in our relationship. I feel like I owe it to myself, her and us to not abandon her during her trials like she did for me during mine. Yes, i recognize that she has abandoned me since but she hung in for a long time.
Anyway - I finally understand all of the advice over the past few days. The key is that I was making everything about her and not about me. I guess I still am. Unfortunately, my goals conflict. If I were able to focus on what is right for me, I would have D'd her back in the summer. I would have sold our house and moved into a smaller apartment. I would probably be dating by now and maybe in a much better place personally. This brings me back full circle to my inability to separate hope and expectations and detaching from giving up.
Also, I truly believe that my wife does not want our marriage to end, she just does not see a clear path forward. I realize that this could just be wishful thinking or what I want to believe but that's an honest assessment of where I am right now. Yesterday she told me she had gathered up all the things the OM gave her and stuff that he had left at her place and was going to give it back. She says things like 'sometimes i wish you would just file to light a fire under my ass' and 'i know what i have to do and what the right thing to do is, and i don't know why i can't just do it'. I look at these things as someone who is not willing to take responsibility for the situation that they are in or the choices that they have made and is looking for someone else to make decisions for them. Unfortunately for me, I can sympathize because before we were married, I had a lot of similar thoughts while, of all things, under an addiction (to a video game).
I know that she is struggling terribly with things. She has admitted as much. She is afraid I won't be able to forgive her, or trust her or that we will fall into old habits and go back to our old ways of reacting to each other. I don't know what to say to these things. In the past I rationalized and that didn't get me anywhere. Then I took the approach to agree with her and she turned that around on me - 'see, you think its hopeless too.' So now I just say nothing. If she asks me what I think, I just say 'I don't know what to say - you know how I feel about that'. But that's a trap too because then she asks me how I feel and I either fall into the rationalization trap or reinforcing that I am still there for her to come back to.
One of the big questions I have is actually the same thing MM asked above. When my wife claimed that my lack of a response to her was that I was seeing someone else, I didn't answer her question directly. I just said that the reason I didn't respond to her was that we had agreed not to talk and had nothing to do with whether I was or was not seeing someone else. Nevertheless, she has mentioned in the past that if I was to see someone, it would let her know that I had no more interest in working on things with her and so would make her decision easier. Its a bullsh!t double standard but what's the response? She has also done this in the past for lesser 'infractions' - like me not responding to her emails or me telling her I need space to figure out what I want. It seems like its just giving her an excuse and in the past, I have caved but I think the proper response is 'tough sh1t'.
So yes - I guess I am afraid that if I walk, she won't follow. But more accurately, I am afraid that if I walk, she will use that as an excuse and also that I will have regrets that I didn't do enough. I guess this is co-dependent behavior but where do you draw the line between being patient, giving space, not pressuring, etc. in a proper way vs. in a co-dependent way?
A few final points:
1. I don't think she's ever said that she intends to date around although she has said numerous times that she's not convinced the OM is right for her. I think this is truly about her inability to see a positive future between she and I, because she is addicted to the OM and certain things he gives her.
2. I did specifically tell her that I wanted time to sort out what I wanted. That's when she responded with 'i thought you wanted to work on the marriage'. I told her that has been my position and as of this moment, it still is, but that I have to consider what I want for my life, what I feel I deserve and how long I am willing to wait on her.
3. I don't think I am resentful. Most of the time when I think about it, I really just feel sorry for her. She has gotten herself (and me) into an awful mess that is going to be very painful for her to get out of - no matter which option she chooses. She keeps taking the easier path (at that particular moment) and it keeps getting her deeper and deeper. You would think by now she would recognize that in the 8 months since she's started this relationship, her life has gone nowhere but downhill. You read all these articles about affairs never being worth it and she is stuck thinking that she is the exception - even though the evidence is showing otherwise.
4. I am not necessarily pinning my hopes on the OMs actions (he obviously struggles with boundaries too). I fully recognize that any meaningful action has to come from her.
5. For what its worth, she has recognized that she needs to talk with a counselor and told me that she would be making an appointment with a DB coach this week. I don't know what they provide to a WAS but I assume they are pro-marriage from that side of the coin as well. I told her that she's welcome to my sessions as long as she doesn't waste them and that the person she talked to would probably encourage her to at least strongly consider working on her marriage. She said she knew that and that's the perspective she's looking for.
Dingo, I feel you I truly do and my heart goes out to you. And yes you did say for better or worse and that's regardless of her committment right now. Find the Dingo you want to be and be him. Truth is we can follow all this great advice and they still leave, I like this board but it's a 'supplement' for me just like i'm a personal trainer and I eat pretty healthy but I also take supplements to help make minor tweaks to my physique. To me my foundation is Christ and if you put your trust in man and our falliable wisdom you will be let down eventually, i.e. spouses that WAW. Did you have a role in the degredation of the M? Ofcourse. Does she want it to work right now? Who knows, but I do believe that it's never too late. Don't wallow in your mistakes. You love your W that's fine you should, D isn't the answer you're talking to someone who has been D and I took those problems from the previous M and brought them to this one. So you have to dig deep, i know it sounds cliche but it's true all you can control is you...
This isn't for the faint of heart! Hang in there the answers you are looking for aren't far and you don't have to justify yourself to anyone. Make the decisions best for you and your sitch... Learn from the mistakes and continue to grow... A really good read you might get something from is "Love must be tough" By Dobson And as always pray...
I just read another thread and Acc wrote this, which gets to the heart of what I wrote above:
I think your bar for success should be your own personal growth independent from the marriage. I would focus on why you found yourself one down in your marriage and what you can do to prevent that from happening going forward. From my cheap seats in the bleachers your challenge is not deficiency as a spouse -- it's more an issue of self worth and boundary enforcement. Nail that and you are likely to have a happy wife because you are a confident no compromises husband.
I fear that seeking to "better meet her needs" will deepen your one down position. You probably have more of a challenge in demanding that your needs be met.
I would put all the affair and marriage healing thoughts on hold and dig way deep on you first. If you do that well the marriage and affair recovery will fall into place.
Don't take this the wrong way, you're not a basket case or a pushover or anything, just a guy with vulnerabilities ...
This does get to the heart of the issue I think. I do know what my values are. I do know who I want to be and what I want to be.
My struggle now is that I am not getting the things that I want and I do value and demand faithfulness in a marriage. Of course, I also value giving people second chances and the belief that most people are good, moral and want to do right by the people they love. Of course, I also believe very strongly in commitment and marriage.
How do you have a 'no compromises' attitude in a relationship where both people are equal partners? One of the issues that my wife and I had was a different philosophy on money - saving vs spending, financial planning for the future vs. spending and having fun now. While infidelity certainly isn't something to compromise on, there are many things that require compromise in a marriage.
That being said, I believe I do suffer from the nice guy syndrome and lack of self esteem and self worth that seems to go hand in hand.
Area you suggesting that I should not have worried about the 'grievances' my wife has mentioned to me? While a lot of them were were rather ridiculous - i like cats, she likes dogs was one - some of them were quite serious - she felt that I was controlling because I didn't compromise on certain things, for example.
Dingo, I feel you I truly do and my heart goes out to you. And yes you did say for better or worse and that's regardless of her committment right now. Find the Dingo you want to be and be him. Truth is we can follow all this great advice and they still leave, I like this board but it's a 'supplement' for me just like i'm a personal trainer and I eat pretty healthy but I also take supplements to help make minor tweaks to my physique. To me my foundation is Christ and if you put your trust in man and our falliable wisdom you will be let down eventually, i.e. spouses that WAW. Did you have a role in the degredation of the M? Ofcourse. Does she want it to work right now? Who knows, but I do believe that it's never too late. Don't wallow in your mistakes. You love your W that's fine you should, D isn't the answer you're talking to someone who has been D and I took those problems from the previous M and brought them to this one. So you have to dig deep, i know it sounds cliche but it's true all you can control is you...
This isn't for the faint of heart! Hang in there the answers you are looking for aren't far and you don't have to justify yourself to anyone. Make the decisions best for you and your sitch... Learn from the mistakes and continue to grow... A really good read you might get something from is "Love must be tough" By Dobson And as always pray...
Thanks for the continued interest and posts CL. I have read Love Must Be Tough. It was a big help and the opening of the cage is somewhat where I am now. I don't check up on her, I don't ask her about OM but when we talk, the only thing I am willing to discuss with her at this point is the R. I am not interested in hearing about her family, what she did over the weekend, etc (actually I would love to hear about her family and what she did over the weekend but that's too confusing for both of us right now).
I do also pray a lot - for myself but mostly for her. I am in a lot of pain and confusion but I think she is in a lot more. I am taking a lot of steps to understand my situation, to get guidance, to accept responsibility and eventually to take charge of it. She is just wallowing and allowing her emotions to take her wherever they will - which is all over the place. I truly do have a lot of sympathy for her. Maybe my sympathy and inability to be tough on her is enabling her to stay stuck.
for what its worth, she just sent me a text confirming that she made an appointment with a DB coach for later this week.
On my side, I am going out of town for work this week so it should be a nice break from the routine and a chance to have some fun with some co-workers.
Hey Labug... I would like to ask for Sandi's advice... but, didn't know how to reach her exactly... she may be too busy helping others, and I don't want to "assume" she wants to help another.
Thanks, Magic
So the worst she could do is say no.
HI Dingo... WOW! I sure can relate to you! Totally afraid that if I walk, he wont follow, but then use it against me that I didn't TRY hard enough!... crazy spot huh? Also, the part about being pulled in to answer about dating...whats the point? just for the purpose of "being available to them"? No wonder this stuff is so hard! AND, if any of the above is done with intent..WELL, thats just plain cruel. I guess this is where WE must make the decision to do what SAVES ourself, and to be content with that. If its meant to be, it will be... I guess!
labug,.... ok... how do I ask her? I was hoping she might just catch up on this thread and offer to review my sitch... Thanks!!
MM I will find your thread.
Thats great... hope you find me! I just started thread 21, but you may wish to read 19 or 20 first.
Thanks!
Hi guys! Its been about a week since my last post and while I have been lurking around the boards and staying current with the batch of other sitches, I haven't really been contributing.
It's been a weird few days and I am still trying to digest all that has happened. After her call with the DB coach, my wife has made some positive advances and some pretty significant statements but I am still not comfortable that they are lasting.
I am trying to maintain space while still having enough light contact to see what's going to happen. I have been keeping up with the GAL stuff- going to the gym, meeting friends out, etc and generally feel pretty good.
Like I said, it's been a strange week and I am trying to be cautiously optimistic.
Great update, Dingo! Glad to hear things are looking up, and crossing my fingers that it continues.
I have had a few days to consider some of the things that have happened over the past couple of weeks and wanted to elaborate on my story.
In my last post, I mentioned some positive advances and significant comments my wife has made recently. I was originally going to write about a bunch of them but the only one really worth mentioning is that she is seeing a counselor that she really likes. This counselor has challenged her expectations of marriage (love vs in-love type stuff)and identified some co-dependency issues. My wife has always been a people-pleaser.
During our discussions over the last few days, she has expressed a desire to fix herself so that we can fix our marriage - her words. She would like to get together a few times a week for dinner, hikes, other activities, etc - some of which include friends and family. We have been speaking lightly for a few minutes almost every day for about a week now.
With respect to the OM - she claims she has been working on getting him out of her life since the new year. She has returned all of his stuff/gifts and even let me know the specific time he would be stopping by her place to pick them up.
Just writing this stuff out actually stresses me out - I want to be hopeful but know I have been down this road before, only to be disappointed. It does feel different - but I know I have said that before too.
Dingo, that all sounds great! Just be patient because she will go through a grieving process for OM. It may not seem fair that you have to comfort her and provide her support in her recovery from an affair, but that's the role you'll be in for a while. Good luck!
Wow Dingo, Thats great that she expressed interest in wanting to work on the marriage & especially herself!
Take it slow & steady and dont backslide from your hard earned changes!
Thanks for the encouragement guys. I think I am most happy with her recognition that she needs to fix some things within herself. I believe whatever happens after that will be for the best (if we ultimately reconcile or not).
As long as I see some relative consistency of action from her (with respect to the A and continuing to work on herself), I don't think I will have a problem being patient.
Hi everyone - just wanted to post a quick update of the week's events.
My wife has seen her counselor twice this week and seems to really like her. She recommended that we both read a book called Conscious Loving - which my wife has started and I have purchased but not yet gotten into. During her last session, her counselor introduced her to some meditation exercises to try to calm her emotions, stress and all the thoughts regarding the situation that are going through her head. She has also identified some aspects of my wife's behavior that contribute to her co-dependency issues. The few that she mentioned to me were the fact that she never felt like she got enough attention as a child and so is emotionally needy and the fact that she has a tendency to make jokes when she feels uncomfortable or is confronted with something she doesn't like, thus not really letting people know what she is really feeling.
We had our Valentine's Day dinner on Wednesday. She didn't really want to celebrate the actual day because of everything that's happening so we did it early. She selected the restaurant where we have gone for both of our anniversaries and we had a really nice time. A lot of good conversation and laughing/joking,etc - there seemed to be absolutely zero tension.
After a day of NC (yesterday) I called her this morning to see if she wanted to get coffee. She is helping a friend move today and tomorrow and I at least wanted to see her on V-day (too much pursuit?). She agreed and we met up before work. This meeting was a little different. It wasn't overly tense but I did sense that she was a little bit more standoffish than she was on Wednesday. We BS'd for about 20 minutes or so, agreed to get together on Sunday and then went our separate ways.
We didn't really discuss much about the R during our last two 'dates' and I don't think we should on Sunday either. I do sense a bit of the push-pull thing but its not near as dramatic as before - at least not at this time.
So I am a bit unsure of what I should be doing with respect to her. She is definitely not committed to the marriage yet. She is still looking for 'what is going to make her happy' and says her focus is on her not on us. I understand that's where it needs to be and that its the first step. With respect to the OM - he is out of the picture according to her and they are not hanging out. I don't really ask anything about him anymore so I have no other information than that. She has said that she would consider dating him if we end up not working out. To me that's not really 'hes out of the picture' but i don't really know what to expect.
So beyond not pursuing, am I at a spot where I should be letting her come to me or should I be in back of more of a dim/dark mode? Its very confusing - i think for me sometimes that I do a lot better when I don't contact her.
Allow her space to figure her stuff out.
Give it some time and see what happens.
What are you doing to work on you?
How are you doing dingo? I hope you won't ditch the board.
She has said that she would consider dating him if we end up not working out. To me that's not really 'hes out of the picture' but i don't really know what to expect.
You couldn't be more correct! As long as she even considers him as an option some day down the road.....it means she has him waiting on the sidelines of her mind.
(hug)
Hey guys - I haven't ditched the board at all. I still read but have just been limiting my posts. I think it helps me to stay off the roller coaster if i don't post and talk about every little thing that happens.
For a quick update, the past couple of weeks have been more or less even keeled. My W and I have hung out 4-5 times and it seems to be going ok. Its pretty 'friendshipy' with not much more. There is the occasional show of affection and mention of us hanging out with her co-workers/talking about us/me to her coworkers. Most of the time it feels really good and natural when we hang out but sometimes it feels a little weird. I don't have any idea of whats going on with the OM. Haven't asked, haven't snooped, haven't spied....
She is still attending meditation sessions with her therapist, is looking into a stress-reduction clinic and is reading recommend books. I still get the feeling that she's looking for an epiphany or some other flash of inspiration to tell her what to do but whatever - ive stopped trying to get into her head.
The most significant development for me is that I have started to develop an interest in someone else. So I am trying to be very careful and deliberate with what I do over the next few days/weeks...
The most significant development for me is that I have started to develop an interest in someone else.
Sandi, your face is so expressive.
Don't play poker.
lol - i assume thats a bad surprised face :P
I guess I dont know what to say/do right now so I am just taking it slowly. I didnt actively seek anything out but it just kind of happened. Mind you - nothing serious has happened beyond some hanging out with mutual friends and some phone calls/texts. Sometimes I feel like I am betraying the marriage, sometimes I feel like I am just hedging my bets and sometimes I feel like I am ready to move on. I guess I can kind of relate to what my W must have felt but I think the difference is that I was willing to work on things while she has not been. I don't know....lots of confusion right now....
Nothing ever "just happens," remember what we say when a spouse who's having an affair says that.
Don't bring confusion into a R, it's not fair to the other person.
Otherwise, have fun!
Nothing ever "just happens," remember what we say when a spouse who's having an affair says that.
Don't bring confusion into a R, it's not fair to the other person.
Otherwise, have fun!
That's what I am taking my time for. I understand that I need to make a choice and stick with it.
Dingo, please be careful. It takes time to get over one relationship before you're ready for a new one. I know you didn't say anything about a R, but they all start with hanging out with each other.
I bet it has been good for your ego. And yes, having a good shot to your ego can sometimes be confusing. That's how I got into an EA.
Just want what's best for you!
hi guys - I just wanted to post a quick update to my situation. Its been a week since my last post and nothing really substantial has changed. My wife still seems to be looking for a magic button (i guess like i was/still am(?)) and is a little frustrated that her feelings for me haven't returned. That seems to be her major complaint now - that she just doesn't feel in love.
Her actions are still pretty erratic. She'll tell me that we don't want the same thing anymore. I ask her what it is that she wants and she says she doesn't know/can't describe it. She'll tell me that she doesn't want to hang out but then will come over to the house and spend an evening watching our shows on DVR with me, will fall asleep with her head in my lap, etc. She'll tell me she wants a divorce because shes sick of not knowing what she wants and just has to pick a path and then a day later will ask to borrow some of the books I am reading so she can work through things more. All of the above mixed in together in a blender, and set to puree.
I have been very even keeled throughout it. I don't let the daily ups and downs affect my mood, what I say or how I treat her. I feel like I am patient and understanding and do just listen to her most of the time. Truth be told, I don't really have much new to say about it to her anyway. She reads relationship books, she has an academic grasp of affairs and now its up to her to do what she will. I have also found that if, when she is on the downswing and frustrated/wanting to get divorced, if i just say ok and not discuss it further, she comes back around faster than when I would address it head on.
I don't really know what the situation is with the OM. The last time she talked about it, she had run into him somewhere and he approached her. She told him that she had been hanging out with me again and that they still were not to talk. She did post some pictures of her and I together on facebook so I don't think she is hiding that from him. That being said, I don't think she is completely over him yet - hence (possibly) the lack of feeling for me.
So whatever - its not great but its not as bad as it could be. Am I detached? On a short term basis, yes. The general ups and downs of her journey don't really faze me anymore. However, I am definitely NOT detached enough that if she actually did start to take action towards the D, I would be ok with it. Something to consider and work on. I think my general mindset is that if she was really going to leave me for the OM, it would have happened a few months ago when they were really seeing each other a lot. She knows that she can go back to it and either 1. Call my bluff or 2. force me to push the D. I think/hope that she is still working through the end of that R and when she finally does, we'll be in a better position to address things.
So I know bug is going to ask me what this means for me. So preemptively, here goes: It means that I still have some detaching to do. It means that while the situation is relatively acceptable now (compared to where it was a month or so ago), its still not what I want - a committed relationship. It means that I still have to be patient and work on being ok without her. I still struggle with whether I should be darker than I am (we hang out about twice a week and we almost always have a great time together) or if I should be taking advantage of every chance I get to show her who I am and that we can have a good time together. I still have work on myself to do - mostly with wanting to be the fixer, and have all the answers and not really listening just to listen. Its coming along better and better every time though.
So I know bug is going to ask me what this means for me. So preemptively, here goes: It means that I still have some detaching to do. It means that while the situation is relatively acceptable now (compared to where it was a month or so ago), its still not what I want - a committed relationship. It means that I still have to be patient and work on being ok without her. I still struggle with whether I should be darker than I am (we hang out about twice a week and we almost always have a great time together) or if I should be taking advantage of every chance I get to show her who I am and that we can have a good time together. I still have work on myself to do - mostly with wanting to be the fixer, and have all the answers and not really listening just to listen. Its coming along better and better every time though.
Good job!
When we start being introspective and pay attention, we can begin to have healthy Rs. We're able to think and feel and know what it is we're feeling. We respond instead of react.
It's going to take her awhile to fully let go of the OM fantasy. Let's face it, we all like fantasy, men read (look at
) Maxim, women (some) read the Twilight series. It removes us from the humdrum of our everyday lives.
How are you trying to add some of that to your R with her?
Thanks for the response bug.
I guess I don't really feel like I have the ability to interject too much fantasy at the moment. I am trying to keep things with her pretty light and non-threatening/pressuring. Our get togethers mostly consist of getting a meal or coffee and if we meet at the house, we will watch a movie or some episodes of TV series that used to watch together. We have also gone hiking once and rock climbing once - which is great but these are things we would have done a lot more under better circumstances.
Keep in mind that she still approaches and then pulls back. She will go dark for a day or two and then call or want to meet up. We'll get along great and talk every day for a while, maybe meet up a couple of times and then out of nowhere, she'll say she doesnt want to work on it anymore. Then a day later, shes sad and crying but still wants to get divorced. Then a day later, she wants to think about things some more and then a day or so later, we start hanging out again.
A good example of this type of dynamic is this: 2/13 we went out for dinner and had a really amazing time. It could have been one of our best nights even during the good times. That was the start of a bunch of good interactions that I mentioned above. About a week after that, she asked me how I felt about how things were going. I told her that I thought they were going well but that we still needed to take it slow. That I didn't feel like I was ready to jump back into anything and while I loved her, there were still a lot of feelings that I had to get back. She agreed and said that we shouldn't pressure ourselves to have those feelings back right away and that she was happy with how things were going as well. Then a week later, she says her feelings arent what they used to be and that she wants to proceed. All through this period, I am not being overly pressuring. I text her first sometimes, she texts me first sometimes. I havent initiated an R-talk or asked about the OM since sometime in January. About the only thing I have probably pressured on is to do more things on the weekend together - specifically hiking.
That being said, I do believe that the OM is at least out of the immediate picture. Her friends know that she has been spending time with me, she told him that she was spending time with me, etc. So for now, I want to be content with that and not push her back in that direction.
So - after all that longwindedness - Any advice on how I can add a little fantasy without pressure?
Whatever has been happening at least seems to be having some effect. I still don't know if i should be darker or less available though.....
Are you sending flirty texts during the day? Not blowing up her phone but just simple things like "Thinking about you, had a great time last night" "Can't get you out of my mind" "You looked great" etc. Don't try to be someone you aren't, so flirt in the way that's you.
Try it and see how she responds.
So I just wanted to post a quick update. Its been a few weeks since my last post and really nothing much has changed. My W and I had a few weeks of somewhat regular contact. We texted or spoke most every day and hung out once or twice a week. Usually this involved her coming over to the house to watch TV shows and have dinner. Eventually I started to feel like I was the one that really wanted to get together and she was just going through the motions.
She left town to visit her Dad for a long weekend and our contact was pretty similar - spotty, initiated by me more than not, etc. I really started to feel like I deserved better and ended up sending her an email similar to one that has been a hot topic on these boards over the last few days. Basically saying what I wanted and needed and that I didn't want to feel like i was going through the motions or had to walk on eggshells every time I thought about contacting her or asking her to do something.
To make a long story short, her response was that she decided she wasn't willing to give up the OM, had been in contact with him while she was out of town, doesn't need a break from us (that just shows her that she can be ok without me - doesn't make her miss me, etc etc etc.
I was pretty at peace with that. Told her to do what she needed to do and hung up the phone. I believe that she will contact her lawyer in the next couple of days to get proceedings restarted and if she doesn't I think that I likely will. I feel at peace with this decision as well. I will miss some of the great moments we had but I think the last year has finally caught up with me. I was under the impression that we were a good 2+ months into no contact and I don't think I am willing to give that another reset.
So sorry to hear this. But you sound strong and at peace. Take care.
Man I'm sorry to hear that Dingo. It really is an addiction and they have to really want to break it by being transparent and working on the M.
It doesn't mean there isn't any hope down the road, but I do think it means you need to go NC and really focus on you.
Hang in there.
Thanks for the responses guys. I do feel at peace. I'm sad and still struggling with trying to understand the chain of events that led us to this point. I suppose that's a futile effort.
I don't regret spending the last year standing for the marriage and trying to be patient with her while she struggled with things but I do feel like I knew this would be the outcome all along and I was just sticking my finger in the hole to try to stop the flood.
I feel like my instincts were almost always right - when I felt that she was going through the motions, she was. That's not to say that she didn't think she was trying, I am sure she did think that and to this day, still says she did everything she could. I just think in her mind, she never really wanted to work on it - at least enough to do the hard work that was necessary for results. I guess the analogy would be - if you want to lose weight but aren't willing to exercise and eat better, and maintain these habits long enough to have them start to work, do you really want to lose weight?
I don't know how much of this is OM driven or not. Its easy to say things could have been different if she was able to get him out of the picture. I think it all ties into the 'want' aspect though - if she really wanted to work on things, she would have been able to do that. To use another analogy - its a chicken or the egg kind of thing - was she not able to get over him because she didnt really want to work on the marriage, or did she not want to work on the marriage because she had another choice. Irrelevant I guess but just musing a bit.
Unfortunately, I can totally relate to your sitch. Focus on yourself and making your life what you want it.
I suggest going NC mostly because that was the advice I got....and didn't take. Looking back, that kept us in an unhealthy cycle and never let her feel the weight of her choices.
NC has been suggested to me before and the few times I tried it, she did 'come back' after pretty short periods of time - with all the promises of 'this time I mean it.' I got into the habit of making excuses for her after learning about what she was going through and some of the advice/comments here - 'she's confused' 'this is very difficult for her' etc.
I didn't stick to my guns when she did this and enabled her to waver back and forth - partly out of what I felt was compassion, but mostly out of just missing her and wanting her in my life and honestly thinking that this time she really does mean it.
Anyway - more reflections on past events. I am accepting of her choice even if I don't understand it and probably never will. I truly don't know if she will follow up with it and am dreading having to decide what I need to do if she doesn't.
Ahh Dingo, it suxx but it will get better. I don't think you enabled her to waver, she was going to do that. It was difficult for you to protect yourself. I learned a lot about myself in relationships from my DB journey, I couldn't have learned those things any other way.
What have you learned?
What's your plan now?
Thanks again for your support Bug. My plan is this:
She's said she is 100% sure this is what she wants. She's said she is not willing to give up the OM and that its too late and we'll never work. She wants to get on with her life and divorce is the answer to that. I told her to do what she needs to do to make that happen. That's how I left it with her - nothing else was said.
I will not communicate with her unless its business related to the divorce or a genuine willingness to discuss our M with the intent to rebuild it. She has until 5/1 to get the divorce restarted or fully commit to the marriage (no OM, set plan for how to reconcile, etc). If she doesn't do either, I will restart the D. If she restarts it and has second thoughts, I'll give her 30 days from that point to proceed to the next step or fully commit.
I think this is the best I can do to not completely close the door to her but move in a definite direction at the same time. It may come across as still holding on to hope and I guess there's a part of me that does but at the same time, I think I really do understand her mind and where she's at better than I have before. I understand that its going to be a long time and I am pretty sure that I am not willing to wait that long without definable progress.
What have I learned? How long do you have?
I guess the most important lesson I have learned is how much easier it is to maintain a relationship than to fix one. A little bit of work every day is a lot easier than a lot of work all at once. A little bit of thinking before acting goes a long way. I look back at some of the things I did and really feel like I should have known better, but I just didn't.
None of us knew better, Dingo. The silver lining in all of this is that now we do. If it doesn't help you R with your W, it will help you somewhere down the road.
You sound like you are confident in your plan moving forward. I wish you the best, whatever that may turn out to be.
Thanks M. I caught up on your thread a bit over the past couple of days and it looks like you are confidently moving forward as well. I feel like we were kind of in the same 'class' here on the DB forums and its nice to see things working out for you - even if they are in a different direction than you originally wanted.
I was thinking about things a little more last night and one of the other things I learned during this is that while the affair wasn't a dealbreaker for me, the conscious decision to continue it (or the inability to 'control her urges') was a dealbreaker. What I mean by this is that I was really unwilling to let the affair fade out. I wanted her to make a decision to be with me and have the courage and conviction to stick it out. I was not willing to let her play the field and then come back after that didn't work out. That's my conviction and what I believed I deserved and what I felt was right.
People here like to use the phrase 'do you want to be right or do you want to be happy'? Implied in that phrase is that if you always try to be right, you won't be happy. While that may apply for things like, who should take out the trash or other everyday things, I don't think it applies to living your convictions. I tried to live counter to what I believed in and tried to be happy with it but in the end, I was terribly unhappy, stressed out and miserable. In this case, I needed to be right to be happy.
In a lot of ways, I do feel like a weight has been lifted. Things aren't going to be easy but I really feel like the future has limitless possibilities for the first time in a long time - meaning that its not just a mantra anymore, I truly do believe it.
I have stopped thinking about what I could have done differently since BD. Sure, I could have been more patient, I could have had less R talks, I could have focused less on the OM. Overall, I am very happy with my effort. I took a close look at how I acted in the marriage, I took accountability/apologized for behaviors, identified things to work on and applied myself to them. I am not the man only a fool would leave just yet but I am a lot closer than I was before.
I mentioned a few posts back that over the past month or so, I have developed a 'slightly more than friends' relationship with a woman I met over the winter. She and I were out a few nights ago and she said to me 'i think its really amazing that when I am talking to you, you make me feel like i am the only person in the room and you really listen to what I say without judging'. Contrast that with my wife who claims that I never listened to her and am overly judgmental. Sure, perspective plays a big part as does past resentments that I know my wife struggles to forgive (she still brings up grievances from 4-5 years ago as reasons why the M will never work)but it was really really nice to see some validation from someone else on a lot of the changes I have made and things I have learned. I know I have improved and changes, if my wife doesnt want to acknowledge them or give them a chance, its her loss.
Bravo sir.
I have learned. I know I have improved and changes, if my wife doesnt want to acknowledge them or give them a chance, its her loss.
Exactly. Become the spouse only a fool would leave. If she leaves you anyway, well then she is a fool and do you even want to be married to a fool?
I was thinking about things a little more last night and one of the other things I learned during this is that while the affair wasn't a dealbreaker for me, the conscious decision to continue it (or the inability to 'control her urges') was a dealbreaker. What I mean by this is that I was really unwilling to let the affair fade out. I wanted her to make a decision to be with me and have the courage and conviction to stick it out. I was not willing to let her play the field and then come back after that didn't work out. That's my conviction and what I believed I deserved and what I felt was right
We all have our dealbreakers and sometimes it might take a while to figure that our. I think for me an OW would have been a dealbreaker. At the least it would have caused me to go no contact much sooner.
I think you've clarified it beautifully and will have that as standard/boundary going forward.
I really feel like the future has limitless possibilities for the first time in a long time
YES!
I have stopped thinking about what I could have done differently since BD. Sure, I could have been more patient, I could have had less R talks, I could have focused less on the OM. Overall, I am very happy with my effort. I took a close look at how I acted in the marriage, I took accountability/apologized for behaviors, identified things to work on and applied myself to them. I am not the man only a fool would leave just yet but I am a lot closer than I was before.
Just be the best you you can be. It sounds like you're getting there.
That's where making yourself a better person in the end will make all the difference in the world. It's incredibly hard but changes for the better will not push your W away. It may not pull her closer to you either (if she choses to ignore them) but the reality is there is probably someone else out there that can get to experience the "better you." Either way, it could either save your marriage and if it doesn't, you'll be a better person for the next person you are with and have a greater understanding of what it takes to have a successful relationship and/or marriage.
And that's your W's loss if she chooses to ignore that fact. You have no children so your W probably doesn't feel the "family guilt" that my W is feeling right now. I'm fortunate enough that my W came to grips with the fact that she didn't want to break up our family therefore I've been able to spend more time with her and SHOW the changes that I've made. It's made some difference, but we're not even close to out-of-the-woods. It may turn out okay, it may not. Who knows?
I find it interesting that you mentioned your W has a hard time getting over past resentments. My W is battling with the same struggle. One thing I've learned is that we can't alter what we did in the past. I know I wasn't the best husband I could be and I'm sure you could say the same thing. But what's interesting is those past events no longer have ANYTHING to do with us. Those resentments are on their shoulders, not ours. All we can do is worry about what we do from this point forward and not give them reasons to solidify those feelings of resentment even though they will look for every opportunity to do so.
That's why you have to smile, be confident, and be patient if the goal is to save your marriage.
I hear today something that its amazing:
The dilemma is that if you are what you have and things go away then who you are also goes away in the process...
Think about it....
Quick update from me. Its been just over 2 weeks since our last actual discussion. We've had a few email exchanges relating to business type things (taxes, a piece of mail she was looking for, money problems with her condo (not the one she is living in now, a rental property she rents out in her hometown), etc.)since then.
She claimed that she spoke with her lawyer the day after we last actually spoke. She also stated that she was ready to move her stuff out and wanted to come over that weekend. I wasn't available that weekend and let her know to pick another time. Since then, I have heard nothing from her regarding moving her things or anything further from her or her lawyer about the divorce or business related to it.
These delays are somewhat eroding my resolve and I have to remind myself that the current situation is 100000% unacceptable and that I need to be firm on that and firm with her. I havent slipped up yet though - other than in my own head.
Another thing I still struggle back and forth with is guilt. Wishing I did somethings different during the M, believing that everything is my fault, etc. Still working on letting go of that as well.
We can't go back, we can only go forward.
Recognize that you did some things wrong, resolve to learn from that then let it go.
Hi guys- just a quick update with not a whole lot to say. It's been just about a month now since she said she was dead set on a divorce and nothing was going to change her mind. I have been completely dark since that day- responding to emails/texts very simply and to the point. Most of these have been pretty businesslike but none have been about the divorce.
We did have one conversation a couple of weeks ago about things and her comments led me to believe that she is, once again, trying NC with OM 'while she makes her decision'. This has been her standard phrase since BD when she wants to back off her divorce soap box.
So my date of May 1st is approaching and it looks like I am going to have to be the one to make a decision as I don't think she has done a single thing to get divorce started again or to start to move back towards me....
You've set a date of May 1.
You may be dead set on that, but let me throw this in. Purely date-driven decisions are almost always bad. She hasn't gone ahead with the D. She may be breaking up with OM, which if true, will put in a whole new frame of mind a few months down the road.
You may have reached your limit, and that's entirely for you to decide on your own. We much each do that. But it doesn't sound like she's at all done.
In other words-are you done?
I guess that's the million dollar question and since I can't answer it, I guess that means I'm not.
I was able to accept that we would be getting a D a month ago. I don't trust if these aren't just more of her games though....
It's good to be able to accept it, as you say. Then you can look at the whole situation more rationally than emotionally.
Being able to accept it though doesn't mean you want to be D'd or have to pull the trigger. Just means you've come far enough to know you'll be ok, if D is what has to happen.
Until she's done with OM, there will be lots of games. I'd say that right now, she's dealing with being in complete control, and she hasn't got the confidence yet to go through with the D. She may get there, she may not.