I decided to post back on Newcomers, although, I guess being 6 months in, I'm still relatively "young", and I want to make sure I have people slapping me around a little, and it's very helpful to get the great feedback on here.
Quick recap, most in my sig:
- Married 11/10/2013
- W serious depression
- Separated 6/10/2013 (she went out of state to stay with her mom for 6 weeks to "pray/fast")
- EA - 6/26/2013 (found out started while out of state)
- Divorce filed 8/19/2013
- W wants back in 9/1, lasts one day
- PA - lasted less than one week 9/15/2013
- Ended PA, but still distant "friends"
- W wants back in 10/1, lasts one week
- W wants back in "for real", ends A, even friends 10/29/2013
- Divorce dismissed 12/13/2013
Since 12/13/2013, some interesting stuff, to say the least. Struggling a lot with both my two kids and her two kids being adamantly against our R. Two HUGE fights, one on Christmas Eve (after which she ended up texting OM to try to make me jealous, although she apologized for it).
Over the last two weeks especially I have had two fairly significant things happen:
1. I have lost all fear of "losing her", etc; when she gets upset, I just leave and do my thing. At first, I thought this meant that I was losing my interest in her and our relationship, but I've realized I'm a little more confident that she's really not going to leave again.
2. She has been the picture of calm and restraint the last couple of weeks - when for the past three years she has been extremely volatile, even admitting she may need anger management counseling.
3. I've been struggling mightily with feelings of resentment, whether it's fair or not. W sincerely regrets everything; has always taken complete responsibility, even says her actions are not my fault, even if I'm to blame for my share of our marital problems.
Anyway, I read the posts of the folks that have been here awhile, and appreciate their perspective, and I simply don't have it yet, so maybe I need a little more guidance!
Is this the second time around for both of you? (Were you both married previously?)
Yep. I was separated from 2006-2010, got legally divorced in 2010 - very little contact with XW1 those four years (she was going through multiple affairs).
W only lived with her XH about 6 months of the last four years they were legally married with not much contact.
I always said we got really good at being alone (neither of us dated during that time), just never learned how to have a good relationship maybe!
Since 12/13/2013, some interesting stuff, to say the least. Struggling a lot with both my two kids and her two kids being adamantly against our R.
You've mentioned your kids are against R a number of times but not your step kids.
Why would they be against your R with W?
I guess, to be honest, S6 loves me. D10 has been told a lot of stuff by W when W was mad at me, so she is nervous. She tends to defend her mom no matter what, as most kids do. Even if W apologizes and says she was wrong, D10 still tends to harbor it. W treated my kids awful the first couple of years, so they have serious trust issues.
I think my biggest struggle right now is apathy. I do love W, and I do believe in marriage. She says she is committed 100%, but if we have any sort of disagreement or argument, W basically retreats to a hole - said hole being in her apartment in her bed behind her phone.
She'll then ignore me for 2-3 days, until she decides to pop back out again. It's miserable. She won't read any book suggestions like 5LL, even after promising to get. She won't schedule counseling. Most recently, I found out that she hadn't blocked OM from texting on her phone like she said she did - she swears it was just a "mistake". I told her it seemed very suspicious, but let it go
I know many people will say, 'Boy I wish my W would say that stuff" - but believe me, this is no fun, literally exhausting.
Jon- i can feel for you on how exhausting this can be. In some ways it's more difficult than the stuff leading up to this. You want to believe but every ounce of self preservation is telling you not to. Everything the least bit off seems suspect. Hang in there man.
I am sorry to read that your situation is not moving forward in a strong, positive manner. Being 100% committed works when you have goals and strategies that help get the marriage back on track. In order for the relationship to change, the partners have to change. As Michele Weiner-Davis says, "...marriage does not come with a user manual". Call us to speak to a Divorce Busting Coach and learn how to make a change in your marriage. 303-444-7004.
Thanks, dingo. Roberta, I'd have to get W on the call first!
I don't have any advice as I never made it to this stage, just wanted to say it's good to see you're still being strong.
I know it has to be frustrating, but you are controlling the only thing you can, which is you. You're wife is moving at her own pace, but I hope she soon begins get the motivation/inspiration to begin to make the changes she needs to make. Keep doing and showing her your best no matter what though Jon!
Jon,
What were your wife's complaints about the M? I just read through all of your threads and I don't see anything about how you came to be here.
Thanks Mimi - I do appreciate the support.
Lovethehub, these are kind of long answers, but they might not make sense without a little back story.
The first year it was probably my kids. I know everyone thinks their kids are perfect, but I could relate many stories of people coming to me and telling me how they had done some sweet thing. W insisted they were uncontrollable brats, and would lash out at them constantly, and tell me it was all my fault they were undisciplined and awful. Everyone of our friends told her she was wrong. We even did a 6 month experiment where I took over all discipline for four kids, and our family was GREAT, but W just couldn't stop herself from griping and started getting back into discipline. If she felt I didn't punish harshly enough, she'd not speak to me for a week. It's interesting fast-forwarding three years, and D10 (D7 at the time) is starting to act JUST like D13 (D10 at the time). Payback's a B!
She started going into depression year two - would spend a lot of time in bed, on her phone, on her laptop. She'd be in bed when I got home from work, get up for an hour and make dinner, and take her dinner back to her bed, and stay there all night. I would tuck in all four kids, but if they didn't come to our room to see her, they wouldn't see her. I even made deals with here where if she would get out of bed by 10:00am and stay out of bed until 8:00pm, we'd go somewhere nice. She finally got on medication, and that helped a little bit.
Year three, it was money, although she still spent most of her time in bed. Her XH stopped paying child support, and when he was going to pay the back money, she was mad at me, so told him to put it in an education fund for them just to spite me. She specifically told me she did it to spite me. I also caught her buying stuff online, and she would sit and scroll through shopping sites for hours - I would come home every day to delivered packages. Also, January 2013, the XW stopped paying child support again (I had asked W to set it up through bank withdrawals, and she refused). She wouldn't do anything about it, and of course, I'm not going to let my stepkids go without, so I paid for everything. I told her she didn't get any spending money until she corrected it. She was livid, and went around telling everyone that I was giving her no money - even though I was paying all the bills and she had a credit card.
I think those are the biggies. She wanted to not be bothered by the kids, to be able to spend whatever she wanted, and just lie in bed all day shopping or playing games.
That sounds like a very bad deal for your kids. Why did you get married to someone who was mean to your kids?
Those sound more like your complaints about the M. What did your wife need you to change?
Advina - she faked being very sweet in the beginning.
LTH - I tried to recap what W had complained about. She literally wanted me to be harsher on the kids, let her spend whatever money she wanted, and allow her to lie in bed all day on her phone or laptop. I don't know what else to add?
So you didnt know her well enough, maybe didn't take enough time before marrying her. Where do your kids' needs fit into your life plans?
I have a feeling that all three of those situations you mentioned she would have viewed in a different way. Unless she truly is an awful person who hid her horridness until after marriage.
Here is an example of different perspectives from my sitch. One of the issues my husband mentioned during the conversation we had that led to our reconciliation was about how I pulled away. I tended to retreat to the bedroom when he would come home, but I thought I was responding to him. He never seemed happy to see me, everything I did seemed to annoy him, although he never said it, that was the vibe I would get from his body language. Rather than deal with that rejection I would remove myself. I felt he was pushing me away. He felt I was pulling away. It was a weird dance that drove us so far apart we became strangers. The more time we had together in the house, the more time we actively avoided each other--me hiding out in the bedroom and he monopolizing the main part of the house. When we talked about it I realized that his body language did in fact mean he needed space, but not that he didn't want me around. Two different perspectives of the same thing. I was very careful in that conversation to not jump in and said, "but I did that because you would roll your eyes whenever I would talk". I listened to him, validated what he said, then respond by saying something like, "so you thought that I was avoiding you, whereas I thought that you didn't want me near you."
I don't know your W at all, but here are some scenarios that might help you understand where her issues were, I am assuming a whole heck of a lot but the point is to try and get you to think about what her perception MIGHT be--a way to get you to try and see another perspective. I am an amateur at this but hopefully it might help a bit.
1) how you parented. You mentioned your kids are a bit older than hers so it makes sense that she might have had different expectations. However, is it possible you came across as arrogant in your parenting to her? Do you think you might have sent a non-verbal (or maybe verbal) message that you were more experienced so you know better? Also, I feel like dad's get more credit for good parenting for even minor things, whereas mom's are just expected to do it well. Is it possible that she resented being considered the "lesser" parent in general? This could lead to her being resentful and spiteful and (childlishly) putting your kids down to put you down and make her feel like less of a failure as a mother.
2) When you decided to take over, is it possible that she took this as a further indication that you did not appreciate the things that she had to offer in the family or the relationship. Men tend to want to protect their family and provide for their family, and since you had single dad experience you probably felt comfortable providing all of the roles in the household leaving her wondering where she fit in. Not only were you able to rise to the challenge, but has a male you probably got more kudos for doing it from outsiders than a woman would get for doing the same thing. This could lead her to wanting to retreat. Feeling useless and unappreciated and not sure where she belongs in this family. For women this brings out this fear of being left out (isolated). Talking (even fighting) is a way to reestablish some sort of connection (negative or positive doesn't matter as long as there is some connection). In the wild female pack animals are very vulnerable when they are isolated. They depend on the pack, and not having a role in the pack puts them in danger of being pushed out. A very scary feeling. Yes, we are evolved, but our base instincts are the same.
3) Spending money. The isolation, retreating to her room, avoiding any contact because the perceived rejection is too much to bare, leads to the need to fill the emptiness. Shopping is one way people fill this hole. Having access to the family money provided a lingering connection. By cutting her off from that she felt like she was left without a life boat. At this point she felt like she had no other way to fill the void. She was depressed, felt useless, alone, and now her one connection to the pack and to the outside world was cut off. She blamed you. You were trying to keep the family afloat, but you see, she was so far retreated at this point that she couldn't see past her own desperate need for connection.
This is when she realized she needed to go find another "pack" to join.
Now she is back. Make her feel valued. Stop focusing on how you can do things so much better than she can, and compliment her on the little things that she does do. Ignore the things that she does wrong for the time being. She needs to feel valued. Not just as your romantic partner, but as an essential contributor. She might be so far out of practice that maybe right now she is not doing much of anything in your mind, but find something. Anything, no matter how small it is, and focus on that. Not on her shortcomings. And whatever you do DO NOT hold her up to your standard. Also, for the short term, it is probably best of you leave disciplining of her children up to her, and your children should be your responsibility. But make sure that your children are respectful to her. Let her see that you will not allow your children to walk over her or disrespect her.
I hope this helps. I have been reading a lot of books on the difference between men and women lately and it really helps to be able to see the other side. I still have a hard time with the male perspective but I am slowly starting to understand my husband a little bit better.
We even did a 6 month experiment where I took over all discipline for four kids, and our family was GREAT, but W just couldn't stop herself from griping and started getting back into discipline. If she felt I didn't punish harshly enough, she'd not speak to me for a week. It's interesting fast-forwarding three years, and D10 (D7 at the time) is starting to act JUST like D13 (D10 at the time). Payback's a B!
She started going into depression year two - would spend a lot of time in bed, on her phone, on her laptop. She'd be in bed when I got home from work, get up for an hour and make dinner, and take her dinner back to her bed, and stay there all night. I would tuck in all four kids, but if they didn't come to our room to see her, they wouldn't see her. I even made deals with here where if she would get out of bed by 10:00am and stay out of bed until 8:00pm, we'd go somewhere nice. She finally got on medication, and that helped a little bit.
Year three, it was money, although she still spent most of her time in bed. Her XH stopped paying child support, and when he was going to pay the back money, she was mad at me, so told him to put it in an education fund for them just to spite me. She specifically told me she did it to spite me. I also caught her buying stuff online, and she would sit and scroll through shopping sites for hours - I would come home every day to delivered packages. Also, January 2013, the XW stopped paying child support again (I had asked W to set it up through bank withdrawals, and she refused). She wouldn't do anything about it, and of course, I'm not going to let my stepkids go without, so I paid for everything. I told her she didn't get any spending money until she corrected it. She was livid, and went around telling everyone that I was giving her no money - even though I was paying all the bills and she had a credit card.
None of these sound like complaints your wife had about YOU except for the discipline. What else did she need YOU to do differently during this time? These are summaries of her behavior, with your complaints about her behavior thrown into each one.
I have read all of your links and there is a continued pattern of you pointing out what your W did wrong, how you fixed it, how wonderful you are, etc. I am not trying to be rude, I am being honest. I don't see one instance where you have actually looked inside yourself to see what you could have done differently and where YOU NEED TO GROW. From the perspective you type, it is easy to understand why your W is continuing to pull away/come back/pull away/come back. If you want that cycle to stop, you really need to be willing to address your own issues and not just your W's. I know you will say you have because that is your reply to each piece of advice I have tried to give you as someone who WAS YOUR W in my own R.
I honestly have not seen the responses from 1/25 until now, so I'll try to respond:
I have been insanely busy. I am working on my projects, fielding calls from other companies to come join them, balancing my two kids and my two step-kids, and W actually putting forth a bit of effort.
@Advina: my kids come first before everything except W. But when W is demeaning them, and ridiculing them, and treating them like sh!t, then the kids come first. I would stand behind W, and support her in every way, until she attacks children. Maybe she gets it from XH1 physical/verbal abuse, but I draw the line there. I will not debate this point.
@MustardSeed: Thank you so much for your input. I literally brow-beat my own children at one point to try to get W a place to stand. I got up and made lunches and breakfast because W wouldn't get out of bed. I went and sang songs to (then) S3 because W would be in bed playing games on her phone ignoring him. When you've been mother and father for so long, how do you step back and ask your W to be a W?
@LTH - I sincerely value your input, even if it seems like I'm opinionated and bullheaded. I know I am.
But W wanted me to let her spend money - I paid off $30k in debt she brought in, paid off her car, found out she hid $16k in child support while I paid for the step-kids, then she went $50k in debt during MLC ~ how do you find financial trust after that?
Her two kids still call me "Dad" even after she told them that I was "scum", and that I wasn't Dad, and to never speak to me again. What else do I do when I have loved them as my own?
At what point do you finally admit your W is just not worth it? No matter how much DBing you do?
Jon,
I think you should let your W go. Not because she isn't worth it, but because you refuse to recognize your place in the downfall of your M and no matter what she does, it won't ever be enough for you. She deserves better.
Hey John, how's it been going? Good I hope.
I'll catch up a little before I respond, because I think my catching up may give LTH a little better perspective on what I'm dealing with. Things have been going well, up until about two weeks ago.
Flashback: W is a very fast and aggressive driver, and pulled in front of someone while she was visiting her mom down south this past summer. Unfortunately, an ambulance chaser is now suing her. It's ridiculous, but you know how insurance companies will settle. To add to that, shortly after, XH1 sued her asking for full custody - although, what he really wants is to pay less child support, even though he makes > $150k/year, and W makes < $30k.
Now, recall that W's spending has put me in pretty bad shape financially. However, when W got the paperwork about being sued for full custody, she immediately called me and DEMANDED I get a second loan or apply for a credit card. I reminded her my credit was in pretty bad shape, but I would help her out in any way I could. I hugged her, and held her, and told her to turn her thoughts of worry into prayers, and that it would be OK.
That very day, I called an attorney, scanned in all her paperwork, called my credit card company about an advance, and filed our taxes to try to get our refund back sooner. W went home and slept from 10:00am to 5:00pm while I was doing this. She woke up, and when she found out I didn't have money in hand to give her, she was livid. She immediately accused me of not caring about them, and said that I only cared about my "own kids", and that if it was my kids, I'd have $1,000 in cash ready to go. I simply responded with the actions I had taken, and reminded her that the first hearing was 3 weeks away, and even that hearing would be to schedule more hearings weeks or months away, so we should speak with a lawyer. I told her when I got paid the next week, I could pay for at least a legal consultation at $225/hr.
She refused this explanation, insisting that I "should just have money". She then said she was going to file dissolution so she could get legal aid for the poor, and she prepared the paperwork. At this point, I simply said I felt it was not the right choice, but I would not stand in her way. I signed her paperwork, and she filed it. I asked her to reconsider, and she said since I wouldn't give her cash, then she had no other choice ~ no matter, that I had no cash to give. When we went to the courthouse to sign and her to file, she told them how great it was, and how excited she was to get it over with. She walked out of the courthouse, and immediately changed her name on Facebook (a concerned friend asked me if everything was ok since she took off her married name).
So, that's where we are, lovethehub. This is the story of our marriage; she makes rage-filled, irrational choices, no matter how calm and supportive I am.
I hope this scenario explains better what I'm up against! 27 days until dissolution/divorce is finalized.
Ironically, after she filed, she found out that the "poor legal aid" doesn't offer any assistance for child custody cases. I did get an approval to increase my credit limit, and I gave W a $1,000 advance against our tax return. I actually did this right before we met at the courthouse, and she still went forward with filing...
@LTH - what alternative would you have suggested in this situation? I tried sympathy, reason, love; what would you have suggested in this scenario since you think my W deserves better than me? I'm sincerely curious.
She doesn't deserve better. You're a great guy.. She needs some tough love. Why are her actions OK with you?
Wow weeee, Jon, I am sorry to hear. That is some of the craziest stuff I've seen on here to be honest.
It sounds like you did what you could do. TBH, I wouldn't have even given her the $1,000 if she was proceeding with the dissolution. She clearly does not value YOU or the marriage, she's all about herself and extremely selfish and narcissistic. Or she's just a nut. Either way, it sounds like she did you a favor.
So are you living together? I don't think you moved back together, right? Do you think you are really done this time?
@unbidden - they are not. At this point, I've simply stopped communicating with her mostly.
@NTX - the $1,000 was because she got to claim both of her kids this year, so she would've gotten the money anyway; and I prefer to take the high road. Also, no, she has a 1-year lease that would cost her like $5,000 to break.
You'll love this. She has (since filing):
1. Invited me to dinner, almost begged - I very nicely refused because I said it would be confusing to the step-kids since she told them she had filed.
2. Invited me over for "good times". I very nicely refused because I said I thought it would muddy waters.
3. Said that she loved me, but she filed because she didn't believe I sincerely loved her, and if she came back, I wouldn't really commit to the relationship. I'm sure this is a legitimate fear to her or she wouldn't say it, but I'm pretty sure I'm the one that stuck with her through leaving, binge-spending, an affair, and lots more. Also, I don't think it's wise to make choices based on assumptions of someone's feelings or what "might" happen. You either honor your vows or you don't.
I dunno. I'm back to no contact at this point. I've discovered that sometimes you can be the "spouse only a fool would leave" - but that still doesn't fix whatever's broken in them.
Other than that, good stuff:
1. I have repaired and improved my relationship with MY kids that I had sort of broken down by being consumed by W and this junk. D13 was very stand-offish, wouldn't say I love you - very angry at W. Now, she's still holds a lot of fear and resentment toward W, but comes up and will just hug me, always tells me she loves me, etc.
2. I am starting a new job 3/24 that is a much better fit for me, and working with a good friend of mine which makes it even better!
3. Upon hearing news of the re-filing, several friends contacted me and specifically commented on what a good husband and man I had been. One specifically said: "I'm disappointed in W - I really hoped she would become the person you said she was inside." Made me feel good that I had honored her externally even if we'd messed up internally.
4. I've lost about 6 more pounds, and have been cooking new dinners that the kids are loving. I let them pick from a healthy cookbook, and we go grocery shopping. We had been eating out a lot, and are saving quite a bit of money now!
Best of all, I get bothered and/or frustrated by W sometimes, but I usually just take a deep breath and back off. I'm SO much more able to just detach and respond calmly, and it actually drives W crazy.
@NTX - I told someone recently I wasn't done with the marriage, but I was done with who W is right now. And I won't stop the divorce from finalizing 4/1. I'd like to believe when it comes down to it, W dismisses it (again) because she knows it's wrong.
I think you know you're done, not when you're angry and bitter and vicious, but when you just can say, "Oh well, my life is good, and will be good either way".
So, that's where we are, lovethehub. This is the story of our marriage; she makes rage-filled, irrational choices, no matter how calm and supportive I am.
I hope this scenario explains better what I'm up against! 27 days until dissolution/divorce is finalized.
It doesn't sound like there is anything different you could have done in this situation. My concern for your reconciliation has always been that it appears that you only see her part and, if this is true, I guarantee she knew it. It also appeared that you felt superior to her. I am saying appeared because I don't know this is true, I can only go by how things come across in a post.
Either way, I am sorry things are where they are because I hate to see anyone D and, after having gone through it, I believe it is harder to deal with each other after the D than before.
@LTH - thanks. I'm trying to do a better job of waiting until I can calmly and rationally review a situation rather than responding in the emotion of the moment. I think it helps me take a step back and see where W is coming from; and when I realize that I've worked SO hard on myself, and W really has made very little progress since August, it makes me sympathetic for her.
Rather than feeling superior, which I honestly may have felt in the past, I feel bad that she hasn't had the guidance, 2x4s, and general emotional outlet I've had on here.
Maybe we should start a divorcebusting for WASs?
My DBing efforts, as laughable as they may seem to some, appear to be paying off when I got two comments from friends:
"Can I tell you something? You are NOT your failed marriages. They don't define you or describe you. You are a loving father. A good friend and a Godly man. Satan is a bastard and he will do everything to whisper lies in your ear and tear you down. You are good. You are free. You are worth it."
From a different friend, repeating what I said earlier:
"I'm disappointed. I really wanted W to become the wonderful woman you believed she was inside."
Wow, she really seems to put $ before your relationship. I would not stay with this woman. Just my 2 cents - Luke
Wow I feel bad I was hard on you in the past. She's clearly confused and may I say imbalanced.
I think it's possible that two people can love each other but can't be married or live together. Perhaps this is the case here.
Your sitch is getting pretty complex, its getting more difficult to be an armchair therapist and help.
It's probably best to go back to plan A and focus on going dark and GALing.
Well, figured I'd pop back in here, and give the final straw. Back in late March, W asked if she could dismiss the divorce - she filed a continuance when it was supposed to be finalized 4/1, and it got pushed back to 4/14.
She came to me and asked if we could "start over" - her kids/my stepkids were going south to see their biological dad for a week, and she said we could take that week to really reconnect. (This was last week)
I figured I had nothing to lose, so I did. We both were working long days, but we watched TV, and talked, and laughed, and snuggled, and had a good time. She started texting me cute things, calling me "shnookums", etc. Friday came, and our last big date night, and we met at our favorite restaurant. She was talking about what a fantastic and amazing week we'd had, and how she was so excited, but a little nervous - she got all dolled up and looked great. She said she'd like to start dating once a week, and start counseling and really build on what we had.
We had an appetizer, and were just chit-chatting, and I told her I might be taking the kids to an island off Florida for summer vacation, and would be gone for a week.
That single innocent statement set off a nuclear explosion. She got real quiet for a second, then she said, "Well, you better take me somewhere nice." Then she sat there, and ate a bit of the appetizer, and then started ranting about how I always put the kids first, and never think of her, and it was hopeless. I asked her what the heck was with the response since she had JUST said that she wanted to take our time and date once a week for the next few months - I said I had taken the kids on vacation every year I'd had them. I told her I'd love to go on a cruise with her, and spend time with her, but we needed to get things figured out and move slowly so we didn't mess up again.
She then got up, took her purse and stormed out. I enjoyed my beer, then went out, and she was still sitting in the parking lot 10 minutes later. I came up to the window, and could see she was crying. I knocked on the window to try to talk to her, and she mouthed, "Go away", so I left. I even tried to call her afterwards, and she said, "Why don't you go make out with your daughter since you love her so much?" *** CRAZY ALERT ***
I talked to her today to get back some of my stuff, and she basically blames me for the whole situation. She said that me telling her about taking the kids on vacation was the same thing as putting a drink in front of an alcoholic, and I "pushed" her because I know how jealous she is of my closeness with the kids. I guess being a good dad automatically means you can't have a good marriage.
So, I was done. I mean, it's one thing to really stand for marriage, and DB, and do the right thing, but I'm pretty sure that someone who isn't even living in reality can be reached. I wished her well, told her I hoped she found happiness, and would see 4/14.
Jon,
As a man, you have overlooked the obvious:
Not making your W feel important. You drop this mini-bomb on W on YOUR date that you will be away without her for a week. How's that helping you draw closer to W and vice versa? Take a hard look at your role during the interaction during the appetizer part. No wonder W went "nuclear" right there. As a woman, that's outright rejection right out of the starting gun.
You flubbed this one, Jon. OWN it yourself.
then she said, "Well, you better take me somewhere nice." Then she sat there, and ate a bit of the appetizer, and then started ranting about how I always put the kids first, and never think of her, and it was hopeless. I asked her what the heck was with the response since she had JUST said that she wanted to take our time and date once a week for the next few months - I said I had taken the kids on vacation every year I'd had them.
Did you just forget basic DB 101 here? Validating. I don't see that you did any validating to W. You just argued back with her and then naturally it escalated. When are you going to learn this very basic DB tenet, Jon?
So, I was done
Over this blow up that YOU played a role in? So you are going off to a D in a snitch because your W rightfully felt rejected right off bat. You cannot blame W in this. Yeah, she didn't say the right thing about your daughter. That was a doozy on her part. But to just run out and file for D just because of this blow up?? Get real, Jon. You know better than most that there will be inevitable bumps along the way. You're not giving your W many allowances which to me is not being flexible nor seeking out her input.
Own your part. And really listen to your W.
This is nothing to do with being a "good" father....but how you can be a better communicator. The timing of your comment sucked big time!
What are you going to do to make W feel desired? She's given all hints, cues, and words to you during that date that she's really interested in working on the M.
I didn't file for D, W did.
And I didn't reject her at all. It was HER idea to date once a week, and she specifically said until maybe September; so I assumed that didn't mean long romantic getaways. I was letting her know I'd be gone for a week so she wouldn't wonder what was up. I also said after we got ourselves back on track, I'd love to go on a cruise or something nice like that with her. I complimented her on how good she looked, bought her a drink, smiled and laughed with her.
Sorry, Wonka, I disagree completely with you, and I don't take any blame in this. I did fail to mention that BEFORE she stomped, I asked her to take a breath, and understand we were on very fragile ground, and to talk to me and share her feelings if she was upset with me. She cursed me and left.
So, regardless of the myriad things I've done wrong, I did this one thing right.
I'm just not sure there is any way to be married to a woman who expects you to love her more than your children, or put her needs above theirs. I assume that's never going to happen, so unless and until she addresses that insecurity, you can DB her to the moon and back and ultimately, it won't do you any good.
I do think that we need to listen to our WASs and understand them, and make changes to make a better R, but if the only change you can make to make her happy means you have to sacrifice your own values, well . . . that's not going to work for you.
Sorry, Jon. And PS, come back!
I have to agree with M on this and the idea hits very close to home in my own situation. If that is truly the case that the WAS is asking to be placed completely above the kids needs a d that's not what you value...you will ultimately end up at the same place either now or somewhere down the road.
I can see a couple UNITED in facing challenges/opportunities and tasks...but not if that means that one partner wants to be the recipient of the attention beyond everything and everyone else. In my case my W expected me and our kids to work towards HER happiness. She however also had the same goal. That doesn't work in any relationship. My 2 cents. Btw, now that my kids see this " give me your all attitude" 2 of them have really backed away from their mom. Its not healthy.
Jon,
And I didn't reject her at all.
Yes. You did. Go back and re-read what you wrote.
so I assumed that didn't mean long romantic getaways
Assumptions again, huh?
I was letting her know I'd be gone for a week so she wouldn't wonder what was up. I also said after we got ourselves back on track, I'd love to go on a cruise or something nice like that with her. I complimented her on how good she looked, bought her a drink, smiled and laughed with her.
Timing of this sucked. Again, I see no validation in any of this convo. Did you?
Sorry, Wonka, I disagree completely with you, and I don't take any blame in this.
So you're entirely blameless in this??! Hmmm...interesting. You're wrong on this one, buddy.
I did fail to mention that BEFORE she stomped, I asked her to take a breath, and understand we were on very fragile ground, and to talk to me and share her feelings if she was upset with me. She cursed me and left.
Still no validating W's fears. If it were me, I'd say: "Wow, I didn't realize that's how you felt about this trip. Maybe this is poor timing on my part. I don't want you to feel excluded...isn't that what you are feeling at the moment? Wouldn't it have been better if I had brought this up after our date? What do you think?"
It is UP TO YOU on how to communicate effectively with W and defuse the situation. You didn't. So you aren't blameless in this. Accept the responsibility for your role in this.
Again, no, you did not do this right. If you had, then your W wouldn't have had that reaction she did. Timing and choice of words are within YOUR control.
The real issue, I think, is what does he do now. He could probably right this ship but is too angry right now. But, anger isn't going to keep him warm at night or help get his W back. I think the anger is a problem and won't let him see things clearly right now. But, if he wants to leav things spiraling downward due to anger, so be it.
Gineen,
Yes, it is understandable about being in the heat of the moment. Not once did I say that W was right...what she said was a real doozy for sure!
Now...put yourself in W's shoes for a moment. She's telling Jon all kinds of romantic stuff and even called him a pet name. Then Jon drops this line, during the appetizer course, that he'll be taking the kids on vacation. What do you imagine W thinks of this on this date??! The subtle message to her, albeit unspoken, is that she doesn't matter and isn't valued at all. In her eyes, Jon isn't making the effort to include W nor reciprocating her sentiments during the date...which translates, in her mind, that Jon doesn't give a damn about the marriage.
When you are on a date with your spouse, make it about them and make them feel special and included. Make sense?
To me, Jon really flubbed on that one. If I were in W's shoes, I wouldn't be too happy either. All that romantic comments, flirting and now this?! What a dismissive comment.
See where I am coming from as a neutral outsider looking at this event and this is why I am pointing out all of this to Jon to get him to see W's point of view. I would hope Jon will do better the next time and be mindful of the romantic moment in trying to reconnect the M.
Jon, if I were you, I'd seek out W and apologize to her for making her feel excluded. I think you can smooth things over with W.
I agree with gabbysmom. There was no reason to act that way.
In say that with all due respect for wonka. I just think that she should not have acted that way given the surroundings and circumstances described.
Paul,
Absolutely...I've said from the very start that W's comments were a real doozy. It is all there. Yet, Jon's comments started all of this. That is the real crux of the whole thing during that "date" event.
The subtle message to her, albeit unspoken, is that she doesn't matter and isn't valued at all.
I don't see how taking one's kids on vacation means that that person's W doesn't matter and isn't valued. (Particularly when she has filed for D.) That's the thinking of a crazy person. This same issue has happened with Jon's W a number of times - his W can't handle that he has a close R with his kids. If they are to reconcile, will he have to spend the rest of his life not mentioning his children to his W?
It reminds me of one of my (obviously insecure) college boyfriends, who got angry when I said I had to get off the phone to order a pizza. He accused me of prioritizing pizza over him. That's just cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs.
And, I didn't comment on Jon's W's comment about making out with his D. That is disgusting.
I am all about DBing but there is a point where you just have to leave the crazies to their crazy, and get the hell out of the way. W obviously has some issues to work on.
I agree with Wonka. The issue is not whether the W acted appropriately but whether Jon contributed to the argument and could've/should've acted differently-- if he wanted to save his M. I would've been hurt by what he did although my reactions would not have been so extreme in public.
Folks, this is how the whole scenario started. How is Jon completely blameless in this?! Jon could have validated W in defusing this instead of arguing right back with her and discounting her feelings as evidenced by her previous comments about dating again, having a fantastic week, seeing counselor, etc. My point exactly.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
She started texting me cute things, calling me "shnookums", etc. Friday came, and our last big date night, and we met at our favorite restaurant. She was talking about what a fantastic and amazing week we'd had, and how she was so excited, but a little nervous - she got all dolled up and looked great. She said she'd like to start dating once a week, and start counseling and really build on what we had.
We had an appetizer, and were just chit-chatting, and I told her I might be taking the kids to an island off Florida for summer vacation, and would be gone for a week.
That single innocent statement set off a nuclear explosion. She got real quiet for a second, then she said, "Well, you better take me somewhere nice." Then she sat there, and ate a bit of the appetizer, and then started ranting about how I always put the kids first, and never think of her, and it was hopeless.
I think the larger point is that Jon came here for support. Whatever his role in it has been, he has been through a lot with this woman he loves. Even though she continually leaves, comes back, and leaves again, he gave her another chance and spent the week with her, trying to give their M a shot. So I can understand his frustration and disappointment over his W blowing up and stomping off, yet again.
I think that kind, constructive criticism (in the context of a supportive message and maybe some empathy or validation re: how the poster feels) is helpful, but attacking a person who is hurting . . . not so much.
M,
Holding a poster's feet to the fire isn't attacking at all. It is pointing out what needs to be addressed and not letting the poster off easy. Sure, it isn't fun to experience to be on the receiving end of some really tough comments from the WAS. Yet, we've all pointed out one way or the other that Jon did have a role in this and could have defused this situation early on.
We all come here for input, feedback, and insights on how to handle certain situations. To me, Jon has been DBing for quite while and I've noticed that he tends to argue right back to W instead of validating her. That has been pretty common theme in most of Jon's threads. Then he has the gumption to blame W for how she reacts when he had instigated a lot of them by his poor choice of words, timing, and what not. He needs to figure out a way to break this cycle. It is up to him.
It goes both ways. Jon needs to decide how he can change and influence how the interactions take place between him and his W. I haven't seen much growth in this regard from Jon. If you would go back to his earlier threads, you'll see this very common theme and I am trying to HELP Jon here by pointing out this very same pattern here.
I think I've said all what I wish to say here in regard to Jon's tendency to assign all blame on W for things going south. If Jon wishes to continue shooting himself in the foot, then that's his choice.
If Jon wants to work of piecing, then he acted wrong. If he is ready to walk away and move on, he did nothing wrong.
They both acted incorrectly, the W said some terrible things to Jon and it would be hard to remain calm and stay with the DBing.
The comments about the W being out of line and not respecting him etc are correct, but how many times do we describe the WAS as being of clear mind? We are to assume they have been abducted by aliens and we are not to believe what they say and half of what they do. It is unfair to expect the W to act or think rationally so soon into piecing attempts.
What I hear is the W saying she wants to feel important and valued (don't know the history of the M but I assume she probably has insecurities).
I think Jon did no wrong bringing up the trip, but should have taken her response and started to dream or plan on the future. Validate her feelings and work on what could be done in the future to work on them as a couple. Jon did this, but after tempers had flared.
With so much promise and hope built up during the week I cannot help to think they both were caught off guard when relaxed on the date and those old feelings came back up.
Jon, if you want it, dust yourself off get back up and work forward with solutions.
Jon may have made some mistakes in this situation, but to me the W sounds a bit crazy and immature to lash out like that, make a comment about the daughter, and then just walk out, and sit in the car crying/pouting. This does not sound like the maturity of a 32 year old woman.
I'm trying to take a step back and put this in perspective of their entire history. I'm starting to sense she's very insecure and immature. She had a PA because she needed attention, spent Jon and herself into oblivion and then got upset that he wouldn't get her out of a monetary jam a couple of months ago, and now exploded when this came up. Jon was just trying to be a good father.
There does seem to be a communication problem, but it may not entirely be Jon's fault. I have been hard on Jon in the past, but I am starting to get the feeling no matter how well he DBs her, it's not going to help her at all.
JonF
Dude…interesting debate that you have going on here….
It’s funny, I see both points of view.
I can see Wonka’s point, which (hopefully I am not mind reading here)…was to point out where she thought YOU could have done better. I probably would have said the same thing that she did to you….for example:
so I assumed[b] that didn't mean long romantic getaways
Rule # 1 [b]don’t assume. Hey I get why you did it and f*ck I’d probably would have done the EXACT same thing. I think Wonka was simply trying to point something out to you. A different perspective. A perspective geared towards a goal of RECONCILIATION.
I also see GM23’s point….
How does he feel about being with someone who thinks like that?
Gabby’s goals are IMO, a litte more than just RECONCILATION – they are goals for HOW YOU WANT TO LIVE YOUR LIFE.
Personally, I think Unbidden said it best…….
The real issue, I think, is what does he do now.
So JonF…..what is it that YOU really want to do?
Being a close to your kids is GREAT! I strive for this often (even though with a teenage daughter I do want to strangle her from time to time). My life though…is more than my kids. My life is MINE. Mine to live, enjoy, be happy and be peaceful.
That said, this should not be about what YOU did or did not do, what YOUR W did or did not do….rather….
What is it that YOU really want JonF? I like what Gabby wrote….”what kind of partner do you want to be with?” What kind of man do you really want to be? On hand, as dad’s we can love our children to death…but they will at some point the kids grow up and move out. Same can be said for a wife…. One of my fav saying is that I have 2 sons and one daughter. They will
always be MY SONS and DAUGHTER…I can though have more than one wife, which FTR, I am getting ready to tie the knot for a second time (go figure).
So JonF…seriously…..what do you really want? If you are not sure, that’s okay. If you want to step off this rollercoaster? That is okay too. If you want to focus on you and the kiddos…that fine too man. This should be sooooo much about YOU now. You too JonF are entitled to be happy. You too JonF have needs and wants. What are they man?
This is all about YOU JonF. What YOU want, where and how YOU want YOUR life to be.
Whatever it is you want JonF….that what you work towards. You work towards that!
Want a different partner – work towards that.
Want a better job – work towards that.
Want to cool off and give this another shot with W – work towards that.
Want to say F it…W is crazy and I am done – work towards that.
DB….IMO, is so much more than trying to save your M. It is about learning better tools to deal with LIFE.
Whatever you decide dude – know this…….
IT WILL BE THE RIGHT DECISION!
FOR YOU….
FOR YOUR KIDS….
And
FOR YOUR WIFE….
Peace,
Eric
Jon, your W seems to keep repeating this pattern of getting all mushy and romantic on you and then just totally flying off the handle and declaring the M over and done with over seemingly minor incidences. I think Eric is offering you wide advice, you've got to step off the roller coaster and follow YOUR dreams and visions.
From the moment you started piecing I'm sure you'll remember that I and others told you it was too soon, that your W had not even begun her journey yet. All the suffering you're going through is a manifestation of her lack of progress on herself. You certainly could have validated your W at dinner, and that's definitely something you should work on. But even if you had, I don't think it would have taken long for your W to pitch a fit over something else. We've talked about how WAS's run hot and cold, but your W wrote the book on it. I think you need to go as dark as you can and plan on doing it indefinitely, your W is going to need some serious isolation from you to work things through.
Just catching up and I am very surprised that Wonka is about the only one who is encouraging Jon to realize his part in this. Yes, his W's comment was immature and inappropriate but I bet many of us have said ridiculous things when we were hurt. What I see in this story is what I have seen in most of Jon's posting - his W is always completely at fault and she is the only reason their M isn't progressing. I would have been completely hurt and felt unloved and unimportant if my H and I were supposed to be working on our M and, while out on a date (or at all), he told me he was taking the kids away to an island for a week. At the very least, it should have been a conversation, "I want to go away to xxx and I am not sure how we should handle this. Should we go as a family or do you think we need more time?" Then, to argue with her and point out everything she did wrong and wonder why she is crying? Not DBing at all.
Because Wonka is wrong in this case. To be fair, in 99% of his responses to me, he's been right.
Thanks for your comments, all.
I hope you're putting in context that W expressed her desire to move VERY slowly, and date maybe once a week until fall - so, by her own express statements there would be no way we'd be going on a vacation or doing anything romantic. I did make an assumption but what other assumption would you make than a statement like that?
Also, there is a level of "something" wrong - when W can't calculate in her own mind that the primary reason there haven't been nice vacations is because of her spending; almost literally without stopping. She also went on a nice cruise to the Bahamas with her mom last year - I wasn't invited, and I didn't pout about not getting to do nice things.
I think there are two levels here: one involves pretty normal marital issues like W could be calmer, control her emotions, be more forgiving more quickly - I could be more sensitive, try to think more before I speak, maybe buy her flowers to make her feel special. To me, these are normal.
What's NOT normal is to react to the news a dad is taking his kids on vacation (like he's done the last 12-13 years) with cursing, and F-bombs, and name calling, and storming out of a restaurant, and ending a marriage - THAT is a level that is just even beyond most WAS, in my mind.
And, I'm simply journaling to myself - DBing won't work on my W, but it has done wonders for me. Her ridiculous reactions are sort of a side-show now in my life.
I have a new job that is awesome, still GALing several times a week, getting closer with my kids, have gotten way ahead financially, paid off almost all debt except for my house, reconnected with extended family. I am calm, respond much more slowly and carefully (read some of my early posts!). I am more patient with my kids and really everyone.
I'm very happy, I don't flip back and forth, and I really am comfortable.
There's nothing wrong with mentioning a potential trip with the kids to a spouse while chit-chatting on a date. In fact, I'd EXPECT it to come up. If I went on a date with my XW I KNOW we'd talk about the kids, probably a good bit.
Sure, Jonf could've/should've validated better, but it very much appears - when looking at the overall body of work in Jonf's sitch - that his W has a lot of work to do on herself and probably needs to seek professional help. She doesn't appear to be well adjusted and in a mental and emotional state of mind to handle an adult, mature relationship.
-PM
thanks AS/PM. The good news is that 4/14 her divorce will be final, and then I don't have to play this stupid game anymore. I will be proud that I maintained my dignity and resolve through cursing and demeaning of children, and insane reactions - where I maintained my calm, and smiled, and loved.
And I love my W. She is incredibly messed up emotionally, and I wonder if she'll ever find any healing, but I'm proud of myself for maintaining my love for her - because that's unconditional love.
Wow so in six days the divorce will be final?
If that actually happens, do you think you will maintain a relationship or friendship with her, or move on?
Hey JonF! Just thought I'd pop in to see you
We all miss you in the place we're not about to talk about on here, but everyone sends their big (((hugs))) Take care and keep in touch :)Hope everything goes well on the 14th and it's not too emotional for you
Keep smiling and remember..."clap your hands if you feel like a room without a roof!"
Jon,
Remember that each day is new and can be whatever you make of it.
Hope the drama stops.
Take care.
@NTX - I've debated only about my step-kids; they really need me, and I feel like W may quickly bring someone else into their life, and they're going through so much with a custody fight, and W's erratic behavior.
However, any relationship I would have with them would be away from W. I barely see XW1, maybe text her once a week - and that's how it would be with W.
I'm not the type to hang onto crap too long, at least once I know it's time to hit the road.
@TTD - hugs back!
jp - appreciate the well wishes.
Hey Jon, how are you doing these days? Good I hope!
Man, it's been a long time. Just popping in to drop some random thoughts.
My life has been amazing the last couple of months - I got a new job that is the most fulfilling ever, I get huge bonuses, I do side work and make crazy good money. I am almost completely out of debt, re-mortgaged my house to be completely paid off in 13 years, my kids are the best and most respectful and perfect ever, and my friends are the closest ever.
I have helped several friends financially and have seen them grow and flourish, I have lost weight and gained strength, and I feel 20 years younger. I am respected at work and amongst friends.
XW1 called me the other day (we've been divorced 9 years), and told me how she hadn't been a very good wife, and hadn't truly loved me and hadn't been love-able, and apologized for that, and told me how much she appreciated my wisdom and grace - and that I deserved an amazing woman.
Then, I found out W was having her second affair - coupled with lies upon lies upon lies, and I am filing D on Friday, and am completely done standing.
The last week has been realization upon realization of how mentally unbalanced W is, and how she will make any decision she deems necessary to make herself temporarily happy, and she doesn't really care who or what she hurts and destroys in the process. And after all the hurt and agony and trying and pain and horrible days, I've realized I'm ME. I embrace who I am, while I try to improve on my lack, and accept my limitations.
This will probably fall on deaf ears to newbies and sad folks, but it's not even been a year since my first post in 8/2013, and I've aged and grown and wised up so much. My marriage is over, and never will be recovered despite my best efforts, but I've never been more secure in who I am, my faith, my family, my friends.
DBing works, friends!
Wow Jon. You've been through much my friend. I'm sorry your marriage did not work but I'm really glad you've come out the other side and that your kids are benefitting from this!!