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Becoming PatientMan IV - It is Well With My Soul When we last left our saga, XW had spent most of November and a good part of December moving closer and closer to me. She got "spooked", pushed away hard, which broke my heart all over again...so much so that I told her I couldn't keep doing this with her. It's so easy for me to hand my heart over to her only to have it broken time and time again. The depression that ensues...I just can't keep doing this and surviving.
I had been pondering having a boundaries talk with her in early November, but since she was moving closer and closer to me, thought it would be a bad time to push her away. So in light of recent events I had her secure a babysitter and we went out Sunday night to talk.
It was a good talk and we agreed on a lot. Boundaries were put into place. We need to "act divorced" (like most divorced people) for her to have space to detach from me and for me to detox from her, my addiction. (Anyone who has followed my sitch should know my XW and I have not "acted divorced" at all, which has its pros and cons.)
I'll post some more details of the talk and the change to my sitch, but wanted to keep this first post relatively short (by my standards).
The worst part of the intentional changes we made:
1) I won't see my kids as often, or get as much
quality time with them
2) I really just miss my best friend
-PM
"I really just miss my best friend."
This is EXACTLY how I am feeling. So sorry
It sounds like a true break may clarify some things for both of you.
I wish you the best.
Hi PM, great to see you back. I'm sorry for the recent turn of events.
I think we can all relate to losing our best friend . . . it is most likely for me, the most painful part of this process.
How did your W react to the conversation and the boundaries? What about your girls?
How was the first week with the new rules in place?
Please remember, whenever you are having a hard time, you can always come here to vent or just get some virtual hugs.
(((PM)))
Therapist knows my aversion to ADs, but thinks I should consider it.
-PM
New play from The Playbook: The Robin.
Challenge accepted.
-PM
Could you elaborate a bit on the above....
I gotta pull out the robin.
I don't know, bro..
Sounds like a last ditch attempt.
Kind of romantic too if what you meant by 'The Playbook: The Robin' is what I think it is.
Are you Crossing the Rubicon?
I don't know, bro..
Sounds like a last ditch attempt.
Kind of romantic too if what you meant by 'The Playbook: The Robin' is what I think it is.
Are you Crossing the Rubicon?
Knowing me, no, but maybe. You never know what's going to happen.
-PM
Could you elaborate a bit on the above....
It's the final play in The Playbook. If it works, it's the last play I'll ever have to run.
I don't want to play the game any more. I want to win.
-PM
It's gonna be LEGEN...wait for it...DARY. With an 83% chance of success.
-PM
If you don't want to play the game anymore, why continue to play? And what if it's not a game?
If you don't want to play the game anymore, why continue to play?
I DON'T want to play any more. I want to WIN.
And what if it's not a game?
It's just a metaphor.
-PM
Let me know how it goes. I want to win, too.
How did your W react to the conversation and the boundaries?
She was in general agreement. She has maintained for over two years that she has to be "okay on her own" before she could ever consider moving forward with me again. So even though she was obviously moving closer and closer to me, she was still "spook-able" and realized she wasn't ready yet.
So let's do this whole "boundary" thing and see how it works. As labug pointed out, at least it will provide some clarity. The downside is that I will get to see the kids less...
I will be less a part of their daily lives and that really hurts.
Previously I was the one helping out with homework, talking to them about their day, doing devotions with them, and tucking them in at night. *I* already miss that, I know the girls will miss that, and it's an extra burden on XW to take care of those duties.
But she is determined, so I'm laying off.
We will formally talk to them soon about the changes, but we've already mentioned phrases like "mom's weekend" and "dad's weekend." However, they don't fully grasp what's going on and it's hurting them when I'm not sticking around like usual.
How was the first week with the new rules in place?
It was brutal. I saw my T on Saturday, who suggested that I seriously consider going on ADs.
Please remember, whenever you are having a hard time, you can always come here to vent or just get some virtual hugs.
(((PM)))
Thanks!
I really just miss my best friend
I really do miss my BF as well. But I finally came to realize that getting my W back would not bring my BF back, because the person that inhabits my old W's body now is not the person I loved and considered my BF. That person is gone, maybe never to return. It's possible that I could build a new M with this new person, but for better or worse it would not resemble the old M in many ways.
I don't want to play the game any more. I want to win.
Hmmm. Well what is "winning" to you? Is it getting your W back? I think I had that attitude about my sitch for a long time, and I think it put me at odds with my W since her goal was the complete opposite. To her "winning" was just getting the hell out of the M. I later revised my overall goal to finding my way back to a happy life, and then defined a bunch of small goals to help me achieve that larger goal.
I really just miss my best friend
I really do miss my BF as well. But I finally came to realize that getting my W back would not bring my BF back, because the person that inhabits my old W's body now is not the person I loved and considered my BF. That person is gone, maybe never to return. It's possible that I could build a new M with this new person, but for better or worse it would not resemble the old M in many ways.
That's the thing: she's still there. When she was moving closer to me, it was feeling like old times. We have a great time together and we get along great. We laugh a lot. We still love each other and are attracted to each other. It's like there's this magnetic force between us and if at least one of us isn't proactively resisting that force, then we start to pull together. It still, 2+ years later, takes active resistance to stop that from happening (which is what we're trying to do with the boundaries).
Hmmm. Well what is "winning" to you? Is it getting your W back? I think I had that attitude about my sitch for a long time, and I think it put me at odds with my W since her goal was the complete opposite. To her "winning" was just getting the hell out of the M. I later revised my overall goal to finding my way back to a happy life, and then defined a bunch of small goals to help me achieve that larger goal.
Yes, "winning" in this context is getting her back. When she stops signaling me that there is still something between us, then I'll revise my goal.
-PM
Just reflecting: I think I reacted so harshly (internally) to XW pushing me away this last time because I really thought things were moving in the right direction and that there was a chance that what I had been hoping for, suffering through, persevering through, what I wanted SO BADLY was now beginning to be within my grasp.
And then it was all gone again in an instant and there's more distance from XW than there has been in a long time. Boy, does that hurt!
As I've posted before, love is the will to execute selflessly for the benefit of others. As I'm going through my own process I will still love her, and her desire is to be "okay on her own." So I will do what I can to help her get there, which for the most part will be doing nothing and just letting her be.
I will admit it is painful to lose contact and connection, and it is painful to watch her struggle, but I need to resist the urge to swoop in and save the day. I need to resist the urge to say "hi" and probably even to listen to her at length. She even said, "I have to stop relying on you to hug me at the end of the day to make me feel better."
And I will continue to work on myself. Perhaps it was a mistake to even allow myself to consider things were finally moving my way. Is that how I stop the pain in the future? Close myself off? I don't know. That sounds like the way to avoid pain, but not the way to R if she is ever ready.
How do I be responsive without opening up my heart again? That's my million dollar question, though I fathom with the current status of my sitch I will have plenty of time to figure that one out.
-PM
I really do miss my BF as well. But I finally came to realize that getting my W back would not bring my BF back, because the person that inhabits my old W's body now is not the person I loved and considered my BF. That person is gone, maybe never to return.
This is exactly how I feel.
*SIGH*
I haven't yet posted about the boundaries we put into place, but more of the same erratic behavior from her last night. She got home from work when the kids were starting to get ready for bed (showers, cleanup, etc.). She's talking to me and I'm just listening and slightly engaging, but trying to respect the boundary that this is her house and her space and I don't want her to feel like I'm intruding in on it, which is partly what spooked her last month.
So I'm just waiting for her to take a breath so I can exit, and all of a sudden her eyes well up with tears and she says, "It's really good to see you. I hope it's okay to say that. I miss you." (We're supposed to be creating space for the benefit of both of us.) She goes on to say "I knew once I saw you I was going to start crying."
I was silent and stoic for a moment.
Then I said, "It's okay to say that and I do miss you too. I mean...c'mon...you've been my best friend for 15 years. This isn't easy."
I went upstairs for one last hug from the kids and then went to the front door to leave.
She follows.
After I say, "Have a good night", open the door, and begin to cross the threshold, she asks for a hug.
I just look at her. Physical contact is a slippery slope for us and it was one of the boundaries we put into place.
She says, "I know it's against the rules, but can I really just have a hug. Please."
I stood there for a few seconds, then stepped back into the house and embraced her. She dug her head into my chest.
As we were hugging I said, "I want you to be okay. Not for me, just for you. And if hugs are a setback for you, then I don't want to hug you."
She said that she was fine and she was "getting there", meaning that place where she is okay on her own.
I told her goodnight again and I left.
-PM
The boundaries we put into place:
- We will alternate weekends with who has the kids. Logistically it's not the most logical approach, but I understand it may be necessary for at least a little while. It does establish more of a two home family for the girls, instead of 1) their home, and 2) my home that they occasionally stay at (usually Saturday nights because we go to church the next morning).
- I'll come up after work to see the girls 2-3 times per week. She prefers if I take them somewhere instead of coming in and staying with them at the house. Again, on school nights this isn't the most logical approach (homework, dinner, bedtime stuff), but I feel she needs to establish her own space and an easy fix for that is for me to not be in it.
- Limited contact during business hours. Really only in case of emergency or coordinating the kids.
- Physical contact: no sex, no massages, no snuggling. I hated to say no hugs, but quick hugs turn into longer hugs...
- No hanging around to watch TV or spend time together
-PM
What spooked her:
Prior to her family coming for Christmas I asked her if she wanted me to be around the house less so she could have time with her family and her holiday with the kids. At that point were still in the middle of that month and a half long trend where she was clearly moving closer to me. She said very definitively that DIDN'T want me around less.
At some point (or points) over the holiday she said she felt like I was the Dad of the house, that she didn't have control of her house, that she didn't have a say when I was being Dad to the girls (pick up your rooms, be nice to each other...typical Dad stuff).
And when she got spooked she pushed away hard.
-PM
PM . . . why did that ^^^ spook her? And what does that mean about ever R?
You didn't elaborate much, but it doesn't sound like you were being controlling or overbearing with the kids, or stepping on her toes . . . was it more just the feeling that you were a family again that spooked her? And if so, why?
I keep up with your sitch with interest, for two reasons.
One, you have given me much appreciated support and advice, I think we write and think somewhat similarly, and I can see that you are a genuine person who I think deserves every happiness;
And two, I feel that we have some similarities in our sitches.
I sometimes see myself going down the same road as you. At times it looks like somewhere I want to go, and at other times, not at all.
But back to you and your W.
PM, it is painful to read some of your posts, because I see two people who love each other and care about each other, yet cannot be together. And I am not sure I understand why. Do you understand why?
Melissa sort of said exactly what I was thinking. My W and I are your exact opposite - loud, crazy, angry, and we are fighting through our very steep differences.
I honestly feel like you and your XW have a deep settled love for each other, but you've worked so hard to detach you don't even know how to stop, and maybe she doesn't know how to say, "I made a mistake."
Weird. I feel for you. My W's parents are divorced, and I watched him sit in a big fishing boat with us and put his hand on her leg because she was a little queasy. Then, it got all awkward, and he took it off, and asked if she was ok, and walked away. I was thinking, "they still love each other, 3 years after divorce."
How much of your separation is due to just not knowing how to change? Don't tell me I don't know the whole story; strip away your emotions, your head, your thoughts, your opinions....
PM . . . why did that ^^^ spook her?
I don't know other than what she said: she felt like she wasn't in control of her own home, that I had stepped in and taken charge, even if it was warranted since I'm the kids' dad 100% of the time no matter
where we are.
I don't think it has to make sense...it doesn't have to be logical. That feeling spooked her.
And I'm not blaming her family or saying anyone is out to sabotage anything, but I don't think it was a coincidence that they were in town.
And what does that mean about ever R?
I don't know. It certainly doesn't make it sound promising, does it?
You didn't elaborate much, but it doesn't sound like you were being controlling or overbearing with the kids, or stepping on her toes . . . was it more just the feeling that you were a family again that spooked her?
I think that may be part of it: feeling like a family again.
She said that she felt like she couldn't speak up. Not that there was anything to speak up to, but it made her feel like she used to feel, I guess. I don't know how to say this on a MB to make it sound like I'm not a controlling, overbearing, shouting monster of a man, but I guess I am an intimidating figure, and I don't mean to be, but she has told me that I can be scary.
I have never hit her or threatened her or called her nasty names...ever, EVER, so there is no history of abuse we are combating here. She just has communicated to me in the past that it's very easy for me to be scary, so that is something I always tried to be cognizant of and dial down when parenting the kids. Little girls don't need to be scared of their dad, so I really took that to heart and feel like I have done a good job with that. The girls and I have a fantastic relationship, so much so that they come to me with problems and questions that almost everyone would agree are topics for Mom and not Dad.
Sorry for the slight tangent there, I just wanted to be sure I didn't come across like some crazy control freak of a dad/husband, because that has not been and is not the case. However I come across - which I don't know as I can't see myself - I'm sure is partly just me and also exacerbated by my experience in the Marine Corps.
With XW, I never discounted her opinion or told her that *I* make the decisions or anything of the sort. I never put her down or said "I make more money" or anything at all like that. But I guess she felt that way at times, that I was the decision maker, and that she couldn't or shouldn't speak up. I was older and I guess she felt that meant I called the shots, which comes naturally to me. And that hurts to hear because I never wanted to create that type of environment...we really were/are a good parenting team and for a majority of our marriage had a fantastic relationship.
But what matters is she
felt that way, and I guess she felt that way again recently and didn't like it. And it's the
perception that matters.
But I take every piece of information I can get and try to improve. I corrected my four year old right in front of XW last night and it didn't seem to bother her...at least based on how she treated me last night which you've already read.
PM, it is painful to read some of your posts, because I see two people who love each other and care about each other, yet cannot be together. And I am not sure I understand why. Do you understand why?
She won't allow it right now. She's like the tide coming in and I'm standing on the shore. Each wave over the last 2 years she comes closer, then recedes, then even closer, and recedes again. But she just won't come all the way to me.
Yet.
-PM
I honestly feel like you and your XW have a deep settled love for each other, but you've worked so hard to detach you don't even know how to stop,
I have to mentally fight every cell in my body telling me to act. It is no easy task for me to just stand there. It tears me apart to watch her hurting and not be able to do anything.
...and maybe she doesn't know how to say, "I made a mistake."
She's said, "I think I may have made a mistake" and "I don't know if I made the right decision", but I do think you're correct in that she has painted herself into a mental corner where she "has to be okay on her own", which she admits she doesn't even know if it's possible for her and she can't even really define what that tangible goal is.
How much of your separation is due to just not knowing how to change? Don't tell me I don't know the whole story; strip away your emotions, your head, your thoughts, your opinions....
This experience has changed me dramatically. I continue to change, to process information and better myself as a person and a father and a potential mate. This separation has nothing to do with my detachment and an unwillingness to try again.
In what ways do you think I need to change?
-PM
Let me just qualify the "scary" term that she used. She did say she is not fearful of me. She knows I would never hurt her or the girls. I guess maybe it isn't...fun to disagree with me? I'm not sure quite how to word it. I'm certainly not a hot-head either. Usually, though, when I see something wrong I am quick to react and correct it, like the high school kid from
this post.
-PM
You know, PM, I think I understand why your wife feels. It isnt really that she is scared of you.
There is something about a person with a lot of comfidence to a person who doesnt have much. I know because I didnt used to have much.
She is struggling, it seems, to find her way, to understand what it means to be on her own, to find her.
You are someone who handles things. I would imagine you swooped in at times. Now, there isnt anything in and of itself necessarily wrong with that. But to someone who is a little lost, who lacks some self confidence in certain areas, it can be a bit intimidating.
And I know several Marines, great guys, but there is a certain confidence about them, that is different from others.
I am a very capable woman. I am smart, resourceful, etc. But my xh had a way of making me feel a bit incapable. Because he would just do these little things, that I dont think he realized.
Sometimes it was just a look or a word, other times he swooped in. I was very capable at work, at everywhere else, actually. Yet, when I was around him, I just wasnt.
Your wife is trying really hard to get through this. She is trying really hard to find her center, to figure out just who she.
I know that you are not purposely, in any way, trying to make her feel that way. She is doing that. We allow others to make us feel a certain way.
It is important to let her lead. She clearly wants your approval. Be mindful of your words and actions. Show her that you think she is capable and worthy and that you respect her.
I am sure that you try to do this as much as possible. And you are who you are in terms of your personality. And I get the "isnt fun to disagree with you" aspect. So maybe you try not to be so quick to react and correct when around her, ya know?
It is important to let her lead. She clearly wants your approval. Be mindful of your words and actions. Show her that you think she is capable and worthy and that you respect her.
I understand.
I am sure that you try to do this as much as possible. And you are who you are in terms of your personality. And I get the "isnt fun to disagree with you" aspect. So maybe you try not to be so quick to react and correct when around her, ya know?
Got it.
Thank you for sharing all of that with me. It was helpful.
-PM
PM, I didn't mean to imply that you still needed to change things, it is just odd to me that you and your W are that close, but yet seemingly so far apart.
However, I have to say that I can't blame you for starting this acting divorced. My W and I are pretty crazy passionate and back and forth, and the one single thing that snapped her out of her fog was when she found out about a pretty girl that liked me. She had had her brief PA, and the thought of that actually is what triggered her confession, and coming back. For some reason, when she finally was faced with getting the divorce, and me moving on with new relationships, she decided she couldn't stand that.
I can't say that will happen with you, but my point is I don't think your W will have a clear picture until she really "loses" you.
And I guess all that says is you're doing the right thing, so keep living by your name!
PM, I didn't mean to imply that you still needed to change things, it is just odd to me that you and your W are that close, but yet seemingly so far apart.
It is illogical, brutally painful, frustrating, nonsensical, and somehow understandable all at the same time.
I can't say that will happen with you, but my point is I don't think your W will have a clear picture until she really "loses" you.
BUT, I do have the final play. A challenge which I have accepted.
And once I've accepted a challenge, I
cannot rest until it is completed.
-PM
So what do you (anyone) think of the boundaries we established?
And what do you (anyone) think that eight days in she wanted to break some of them (hanging around and talking to me, then asking me for a hug)?
And what do you (anyone) think of my reaction to her?
-PM
So what do you (anyone) think of the boundaries we established?
Well, the boundaries are pretty specific, and clearly intended to keep the two of you apart. You've said you need that as much as or even more than your W, so for the two of you they appear to be appropriate. I think your W needs it too, because she expressed concern that you were too controlling (that's how I read the "daddy of the house" comments) so she needs distance from you. WAS's want to be on their own, that's part of their journey. They want to see that they can do things themselves. They don't want our help. It's a tough thing for fixit guys to deal with, but we have to quit meddling, quit dabbling, quit poking around seeing if they need something.
And what do you (anyone) think that eight days in she wanted to break some of them (hanging around and talking to me, then asking me for a hug)?
I think that you set those boundaries up for you, so you have to ask yourself if the hanging around and hugs are hurting you. If they are then you need to remind her that you set boundaries.
And what do you (anyone) think of my reaction to her?
I can't find it, what was your reaction?
OK . . . I'll bite.
I feel like when you posted back around New Year's, you were really hurting. You were tired of this sitch and the roller coaster, and you knew it was just plain bad for you to continue hanging on and putting yourself through this.
But that is exactly what you are doing now. Again.
And I do not blame or judge you one tiny bit. Heck, my H told me in no uncertain terms that he does not want any kind of relationship ever, with me or anyone else, that involves expectations or obligations, but here I am, trying to justify a way that I can go support him at his rowing competition in a few weeks. Because see, I am like you . . . I can't give up on that connection that we have.
(Remember how I told you I see a lot of myself in your posts?)
If you think about it . . . it's not an entirely cheeseless tunnel, right? I mean, if our Ss were mean and told us to F off, or disappeared completely, we wouldn't be dumb enough to go down it again.
It's more like a tunnel with moldy cheese at the end. And we are willing to settle for the moldy cheese because it's better than no cheese at all, which is what we think we will get if we give up going down the tunnel entirely.
So then you realize, you're tired of moldy cheese. It's making you sick. So you say, no more moldy cheese! Forget it. I am done going down this tunnel. So you talk to your W, and you tell her, no more moldy cheese!
And then, how long later? A week? A few days? She offers you more moldy cheese, and you take it.
And like I said, I'm right there with you, PM. I have really only managed to reject the cheese that had maggots in it (and even then it was hard). I'm still taking the moldy cheese from my H.
But would you tell me to do that?
Go read through your thread (including the last post from the last thread, where your W pulled away again, and you had had it), and then imagine what would you say if someone else here that you cared about posted it?
I bet you would say, "PM, YOU deserve more than moldy cheese."
And it's true. And I know, because even though are sitches are different, we are in much the same shoes, that you KNOW that the cheese could be the best cheese in the world. You just know it!
And maybe that's true. But for now, it's all moldy. So my take - quit eating moldy cheese.
You set the boundaries for a reason. Right? If the reason was to entice your W to change something, that wasn't really the right reason. The boundaries are supposed to be for you, for your emotional well being - I believe that's what you said. And if they are, and you don't stick to them, how is that helping you?
I think the fact that your W has wanted to step over some of the boundaries is just her continuing to do the same thing she has done for the past two years.
I am not saying your W is a bad person or is using you or is stringing you along on purpose. But she cannot give you what you want right now. She has proven that time and time again.
So I'll tell you what everyone else tells me - take care of you, and let her take of herself. I think you know that, if you continue to step over the boundaries (whether she initiates it or you do), you are only getting in her way right now.
You didn't ask about this, but if I may . . . I think that you need to try harder to go meet new people. You have mentioned a number of times that you don't have many friends to GAL with. I think that's really holding you back and keeping you willing to settle for less than what you deserve. You said once you are not going to find a new BFF at age 33. I disagree. But regardless - you can find new friends. They don't have to be your BFF. Even just people to hang out with would be nice. It would relieve you from being so consumed by your sitch, and I think would give you some clarity.
And what do you (anyone) think that eight days in she wanted to break some of them (hanging around and talking to me, then asking me for a hug)?
I think that you set those boundaries up for you, so you have to ask yourself if the hanging around and hugs are hurting you. If they are then you need to remind her that you set boundaries.
No, they don't hurt. I like hearing about her stupid day and I loved the hug. And it's good to feel missed. But I stood there trying to hold up my end of the bargain...this is what we agreed upon so I was sticking to that.
Neither one of us likes these boundaries (all of the time), but we both agreed it was necessary: she needs to be okay on her own and I need to detox from her.
And what do you (anyone) think of my reaction to her?
I can't find it, what was your reaction?
It's in
this post. I delayed, showing that I recognized her behavior and request as a breach of boundaries, but eventually gave in because I was just watching her suffer and I know how that feels. It must have taken a lot to - only 8 days in - ask for a breach of boundaries. Not major ones, but I was standing there for the two instances (talk, hug), and I could just FEEL how much she was hurting. It was hurting ME.
But that's why I told her, "If giving you a hug sets you back, then I don't want to give you a hug. I want you to be okay." I would rather her be sad now and finally get better, than get her fix now and prolong the problem.
And she only made it 8 days?
BTW, she seemed good last night when I saw her, so that was good to see.
I was being awesome.
-PM
*edit*
because even though areOUR sitches are different
where did THAT come from? Yikes.
Thanks for the response. I have to finish some things up at work, will digest what you've posted, and respond later.
However, LOT'S of people like blue cheese.
However, LOT'S of people like blue cheese. smirk
And I thought I was the lawyer.
Melissa, I love that about the moldy and maggoty cheese, LOL! Point well made, and I must say I've never heard it put that way before
Gotcha, thanks. Well I think you handled it great! I think it would have really hurt her if you refused the hug, I'm glad you didn't. And what she said really sounds like it was from the heart. If my W ever said that to me I think I would pass out on the spot.
We are in different places, but your W sounds a lot like mine from an emotional/needs standpoint.
If we get in an argument, for example, she'll get really upset and ask for some space, so I'll not contact her, and she'll so badly want to see me, but she just can't get past the conflict, and finally, three days later, she'll call me, and ask me to come over, and hug me, and ask me to spend the night.
I could be wrong - but your W sounds very similar if you substitute space for divorce. She wants you, the comfort of you, enjoys the hugs and the closeness, but thinks she's still good enough on her own.
I think the difference in our cases is that my W got "let go" - she started taking care of herself financially, emotionally, etc, and ended up several thousand dollars in debt, had two car wrecks and got her insurance canceled, had a very brief A with a nasty guy, and ended up waking up one day and saying, "Holy shnikes, I have screwed up my life so bad."
Dunno. THAT is what I think is missing in your scenario...
I think the difference in our cases is that my W got "let go" - she started taking care of herself financially, emotionally, etc, and ended up several thousand dollars in debt, had two car wrecks and got her insurance canceled, had a very brief A with a nasty guy, and ended up waking up one day and saying, "Holy shnikes, I have screwed up my life so bad."
Dunno. THAT is what I think is missing in your scenario...
Though my XW is experiencing financial difficulty, you're not exactly lifting my spirits.
-PM (mobile)
Well, I'm trying.
You're in a much tougher place, much more complex, and I wish I could give you magic answers, but I'll say again, "Stay your course".
If she had also lost her fiddle and her dog had died, Jon's W could have been the subject of a country song.
Jon, are you saying that you think PM's W just has not had a big enough wake up call to get going on figuring things out?
PM, has your wife gone to IC through any of this?
But that's why I told her, "If giving you a hug sets you back, then I don't want to give you a hug. I want you to be okay." I would rather her be sad now and finally get better, than get her fix now and prolong the problem.
I don't say much because I have plenty of my own issues (and I have much to learn). Why are you making the boundaries about her? If they are her boundaries, then she doesn't have to feel bad about breaking them, right. Why are you focusing so much on how she feels?
I keep reading people tell you that boundaries should be yours for your well being and peace of mind. Own them or dump them. Don't try to turn it around and make your ex-W responsible for them. I'll bet she doesn't want to be controlled in that way.
Just my 2¢.
PM, has your wife gone to IC through any of this?
No, she's averse to counseling for some reason.
-PM
But that's why I told her, "If giving you a hug sets you back, then I don't want to give you a hug. I want you to be okay." I would rather her be sad now and finally get better, than get her fix now and prolong the problem.
I don't say much because I have plenty of my own issues (and I have much to learn). Why are you making the boundaries about her?
They're mutual boundaries for mutual "benefit." I won't lie - I really wanted that hug too, but I wasn't going to ask for it or passively hint for it...we have boundaries that I
will respect on my end.
And honestly, I really and truly don't have any expectations. She was suffering, so I consoled her. I don't expect her to suffer every time I see her, and I don't expect her to ask for a hug every time I see her. I was happy that she was good when I saw her Wednesday.
But that hug? It felt amazing. I could hold her in my arms forever.
If they are her boundaries, then she doesn't have to feel bad about breaking them, right. Why are you focusing so much on how she feels?
Because I love her.
I keep reading people tell you that boundaries should be yours for your well being and peace of mind. Own them or dump them. Don't try to turn it around and make your ex-W responsible for them. I'll bet she doesn't want to be controlled in that way.
Just my 2¢.
I'm not making her responsible for them. I'm keeping up my end of the bargain, then trying to figure out how to react when she breaks them (which has just happened the one time).
Right now there is a battle going on between my brain and my heart. My brain knows the boundaries will get me to a place where she can't break my heart anymore, and this is the logical place to be, but my heart doesn't want to go to that place. I'm a pretty smart guy, but when it comes to those I love, my heart is bigger than my brain.
My fortune cookie from lunch: "Bide your time, for success is near."
-PM
I bet you would say, "PM, YOU deserve more than moldy cheese."
And it's true. And I know, because even though are sitches are different, we are in much the same shoes, that you KNOW that the cheese could be the best cheese in the world. You just know it!
And maybe that's true. But for now, it's all moldy. So my take - quit eating moldy cheese.
I know you're right in my head.
You set the boundaries for a reason. Right? If the reason was to entice your W to change something, that wasn't really the right reason. The boundaries are supposed to be for you, for your emotional well being - I believe that's what you said. And if they are, and you don't stick to them, how is that helping you?
I didn't initiate the boundary breach, and it wasn't something major like sex, it was listening and a hug. I would have felt like a total dick if I interrupted her when talking so I could leave, or later flat out refused a hug.
Plus that isn't part of the play.
I think the fact that your W has wanted to step over some of the boundaries is just her continuing to do the same thing she has done for the past two years.
Agreed. She wants what she wants, but when she starts hurting, she looks to me.
I am not saying your W is a bad person or is using you or is stringing you along on purpose. But she cannot give you what you want right now. She has proven that time and time again.
True. Right now.
You didn't ask about this, but if I may . . . I think that you need to try harder to go meet new people. You have mentioned a number of times that you don't have many friends to GAL with. I think that's really holding you back and keeping you willing to settle for less than what you deserve. You said once you are not going to find a new BFF at age 33. I disagree. But regardless - you can find new friends. They don't have to be your BFF. Even just people to hang out with would be nice. It would relieve you from being so consumed by your sitch, and I think would give you some clarity.
I don't like meeting new people. The typical response to that here is that I should "grow" and "learn" and "step outside my comfort zone" and whatnot, but I also don't like pineapples. I'm not going to force-feed myself pineapples when I know I don't like them. Can I "grow" and "learn" to start liking pineapples?
I keep a very small number of people inside my circle of trust. But I'm extremely caring, loving, and loyal to those people, and then it hurts really bad when one of those people checks out of the circle. I'm just not wired in a way to have casual relationships. They don't do anything for me.
Neither do pineapples.
-PM
I could be wrong - but your W sounds very similar if you substitute space for divorce. She wants you, the comfort of you, enjoys the hugs and the closeness, but thinks she's still good enough on her own.
They do sound very familiar, but one difference is that last part. I don't think my XW thinks she is good enough on her own. That's where she's trying to get, but can't seem to.
-PM
I don't like meeting new people. The typical response to that here is that I should "grow" and "learn" and "step outside my comfort zone" and whatnot, but I also don't like pineapples. I'm not going to force-feed myself pineapples when I know I don't like them. Can I "grow" and "learn" to start liking pineapples?
I keep a very small number of people inside my circle of trust. But I'm extremely caring, loving, and loyal to those people, and then it hurts really bad when one of those people checks out of the circle. I'm just not wired in a way to have casual relationships. They don't do anything for me.
Neither do pineapples.
-PM
I see where you are going with this, but I think pineapples are a poor analogy, because it is reasonable to assume that eating or not eating pineapples isn't affecting your life in any meaningful way.
A more appropriate analogy would be if you were diabetic, and you decided you didn't like taking insulin. Or if you were overweight and decided you didn't like to exercise. Because by refusing to try, you are harming yourself.
What if there was a zombie apocalypse, and in the end, the only things left on earth to eat were moldy cheese and pineapples? Would you keep eating the moldy cheese, even if it made you sick day after day? That's what you are choosing right now. Maybe, just maybe, if you tried to eat pineapples, you might find that they aren't that bad after all. Maybe you would find a really nice juicy sweet pineapple! Maybe you would drink a tropical drink out of a carved out pineapple, on the beach in Bora Bora. Oh, no. You won't, because you prefer moldy cheese day in and day out.
Look, you don't have to learn and grow. But if you don't, you will stay stuck where you are.
And do you disagree when I say that
having your W as your only friend (as you have stated yourself) is keeping you stuck?
It didn't even occur to me until I typed it, but wow, in addition to keeping you stuck, that's a big burden on your W, isn't it?
PM!! Something you and I can agree on.
I'm an introvert and so many people don't understand. For most of my early life I felt branded as having something wrong with me because I didn't want to "mingle". Being in a group of people (more than 2-3) I don't know well [censored] the life right out of me. It's as uncomfortable as being alone is for an extrovert.
Being an introvert is just as normal as being an extrovert.
And PM I apologize if you aren't an introvert.
PatientMan
Go out there and meet new people. Who knows what other opportunities that will bring. One thing for sure, it can't be bad. You'll learn something new about yourself.
Take it from an introvert.
I'm an introvert and so many people don't understand. For most of my early life I felt branded as having something wrong with me because I didn't want to "mingle". Being in a group of people (more than 2-3) I don't know well [censored] the life right out of me. It's as uncomfortable as being alone is for an extrovert.
Being an introvert is just as normal as being an extrovert
labug,
I'm truly sorry if you feel this way. I agree it's extremely uncomfortable being around people you don't know. Sometimes, it's very difficult to find the right thing to say or even breaking the ice. Nevertheless, it's alright being an introvert.
However, meeting new people have done small wonders for me and I'm glad that I reached out.
I'm not sorry I feel that way. I am who I am and I'm happy with that.
I meet new people every day, it's a part of what I do in my job but I enjoy my alone time away from my job.
Sorry for the hijack, PM.
I'm not sorry I feel that way. I am who I am and I'm happy with that.
I meet new people every day, it's a part of what I do in my job but I enjoy my alone time away from my job.
labug, you seem satisfied with your life.
PM has said on a number of occasions that breaking the addiction to his W is extremely difficult, at least partially due to the fact that she is his only friend.
PM, nobody here is telling you what to do or who you should be. Hey, we all understand the idea of taking an emotional beatdown in the hope of saving (or rekindling) our Ms. Only you can decide whether/when you have had enough. I just hope that decision isn't blurred by the fact that there is nothing behind door #2. You are obviously super smart, a great Dad, and you care about other people. It is hard to read your posts when you are really struggling because you don't deserve to feel this way.
(And by the way, labug, I love that you continue to comment on PM's thread even though this is the first thing you have found to agree with him on.
)
I have a few other friends, but they're all married and living that life, so it's hard to bond further/closer. I've met a few people while GAL'ing, but it just isn't the same. What I realize I've always been looking for is that one person to share my life with. Whether it was a best friend growing up, or my XW for pretty much my entire adult life.
And as I said before, casual relationships just don't do much for me - they don't give me that connection I'm looking for. And so those types of relationships almost feel like a waste of time for me.
I'm certainly more of an introvert, but I'm not nervous or anxious in larger social settings, I just much rather enjoy a smaller setting with just a few people where I feel like I can connect better.
In larger settings there are always the center of attention types that take over so I kind of mentally check out in the contributing department. I'm just not that interested in competing with those louder, center of attention types, and I'm quiet by nature anyway. I've always been more of an observer and listener. Very calculated.
I'm not "uncomfortable" in the larger settings. I'm an excellent public speaker. As a calculated observer type, perhaps the larger settings give me more information to take in and process, so maybe I feel like I'm working more instead of enjoying it. Just thinking out loud as this comes to me.
I also don't use the term "friend" loosely, so perhaps some semantics are at play here. My wife being my only friend isn't completely true, but she's the only one I spend/spent good, quality, bonding, one-on-one time with.
And because I'm so selective about who I let in my little circle of trust, I'm averse to putting myself out there a whole lot for people who aren't likely to make the cut - back to that waste of time/energy feeling.
I suppose this brings me to the point where I have to decide to learn and grow to help myself along in this process, and I don't know if I want to or need to change that part of myself. Do I sacrifice who I am to make things easier? I'm not so sure I'm sold on that as a solution.
I guess I should also admit that there's an OW kinda chasing after me. She very attractive and fun to be around, but I just don't feel any sort of spark with her. And sometimes, even though I've been divorced for 7 months, it still feels wrong. That's my value system kicking in and maybe I should be listening to it more.
I know there are some who are all for palette cleansers and getting out there to realize there is life past the failed marriage, but it just doesn't feel right deep down so I think I need to put an end to it.
-PM
Interestingly, many introverts are very good public speakers, I am and I enjoy it but it's not interacting with a group, making small talk, bonding. Very different activity.
Being nervous or anxious in large setting isn't a hallmark of an introvert. I can have a great time in those settings, for a while, then I'm done and need to go home. Too much time there and it, as I said before, suxx the life right out of me.
I would be happy if no one ever called me on the phone again, but texting is fine.
I have 3 people I consider good friends and lots of acquaintances. I don't spend lots of time with any of them. I'm good with that.
Probably more about me than you need to know but I found it so freeing when I recognized that I'm OK just the way I am. I quit trying to be what I wasn't.
PM, you'll know when you're ready to let someone else into your circle. You're not ready yet.
Probably more about me than you need to know but I found it so freeing when I recognized that I'm OK just the way I am. I quit trying to be what I wasn't.
PM, you'll know when you're ready to let someone else into your circle. You're not ready yet.
I don't think so either. Thanks for sharing.
-PM
Well...XW is kind of reverting back to pre-holiday behavior. Not quite as much as she was, but I dropped the girls off yesterday after my weekend with them and she was just acting different (good) again.
It's so confusing, and I'm pretty sure the response here is going to be that the boundaries are in place to protect *me*, so I need to ensure they're enforced.
The confusing thing is the mixed signals. She's trying so hard to make it on her own, and she isn't successfully accomplishing that right now - at the very least, financially.
And based on her massaging of the boundaries we established just two weeks ago my GUESS is that she is not doing well emotionally either and is reverting back to her old ways of coping: the occasional hit off of the PatientMan bong to dull the pain for a little while.
So, what happened yesterday:
1) She had some vehicles pulled up on her laptop (she is looking for a less expensive car payment) and asked me to look at them as she values my input on that kind of thing. Her laptop was on the coffee table, so I sat down next to her. About 3 minutes in I realized that both of our legs were touching quite a bit. I don't think either one of us did it intentionally, but I noticed and pointed it out. She said she didn't notice it either and asked if it bothered me. I said, "no it's fine...I just think it's odd/interesting that this is what naturally happens when we sit next to each other."
2) I was saying goodbye to the girls individually, and they were upset, especially D10. XW asked me to stick around for a while. (Her boundary of not wanting me in the house much to establish that as her space; my boundary of not hanging out with her.)
3) She asked for another hug. Added in the step up onto my boots thing she likes to do.
So...
Obviously I am confused. The boundaries she was so sure of just two weeks ago she - I wouldn't say isn't disrespecting - I would say she has found she doesn't like them. To slip into mind-reading and conjecture:
1) She's just having a hard time and slipping back into her old habits of coping. However, using a previous metaphor, as the waves of her behavior come in near me then recede over time, the trend is that the tide is coming in.
2) She has said that she cannot move forward in a MR with me until she is okay on her own. This is the "blueprint" I have spoken about before, almost as though she is telling me that she knows she wants me, but has to deal with fixing herself first. And if I'm just patient and help her get there, THEN we can move forward.
3) I'm just a familiar coping mechanism. She isn't looking for anyone else right now, but if someone else comes along or she begins to look, she'll drop me like a sack of potatoes.
4) Unknown
People who are in love sometimes blind themselves to certain things that are obvious to others, but I very highly doubt it's #3. And that isn't to say that over time, #3 couldn't happen. Some great guy could meet her and sweep her off of her feet, and without the baggage it could be a very attractive option for her.
So these boundaries that are set up to protect me...I think it's obvious to anyone who follows along with me that it is my head doing the leading here now. I was really hurt when she pushed away this last time over Christmas, and my head and heart were in tandem for a little while, but now the boundaries are my head telling me I need to do these things so I can fall OUT of love with her and stop getting hurt.
But that isn't what my heart wants.
I don't want to live my life with regret (I have enough of those), and if I give up...if I quit just so I can feel better...I am positive that's something I'm going to end up regretting.
Continuing to stand for 2+ years led to a lot of heartache and heartbreak. If I choose to continue to stand, I can keep going through this or I can try and figure out a way to protect myself better...keep the gloves up to protect my heart. For 15 years she's had me by the ventricles.
I'm a smart guy, and you're all smart people looking at this sitch objectively. How do I continue to do this dance with her and still protect myself?
Looking back, I let my guard down without even knowing it. In fact, sometimes I am convinced my guard is still up and I learn the hard way that it very much isn't.
I guess my next question is, am I too focused on her and her well-being? I want her to be okay...not for me, just for her. She's the mother of my children and she needs to be okay regardless of our future.
She tells me she needs space so I give it to her, and then she can't seem to stand it so she closes the gap. Should I enforce the gap, or welcome the closing in?
My world isn't spinning or anything, I am just uncertain about how to deal with this present situation. There isn't a whole lot I am uncertain about, so it's an odd feeling.
While all this is going around in my brain I am focusing mostly on the kids and showing her a PMA when I see her.
-PM
She has said that she cannot move forward in a MR with me until she is okay on her own
Maybe I missed it, but what does "okay on her own" mean?
Hi PM, your sitch is so frustrating for me to read about . . . I can't imagine what it must be like to live it.
I think what it comes down to is, what you can handle. Is there some way to continue hanging on to your W, and following along with her ups and downs, moving closer and then backing away, while still protecting yourself emotionally? Not that I can fathom.
Standing for your M is pretty much putting your heart on the line and hoping it doesn't get continually smashed into pieces. Sometimes I think that it would be easier to have a WAS who just annihilates the LBS all at once, then disappears forever. Because then there is not that constant need to decide how much is enough.
What is your W doing to fix herself? From your posts, I see nothing. So I'm not sure what, on the current path, will make this pattern (she gets closer, then she moves farther away, your heart is broken, you decide to set boundaries, she moves closer, and on and on) ever end. It certainly doesn't seem like she is doing anything to end it. So I guess it is up to you whether you want it to end. Is it worth the risk?
Something I have seen posted quite a bit around here is the LBS needing to get out of the WAS's way, so that the WAS can have his/her own "journey." I think you are still in her way. And yes, it is because she is pulling you in, but regardless of how it happens, will she ever be able to figure herself out/fix herself/know that she is okay on her own if you are always around and available?
Also, your W has never had to miss you. You have always been there for her. And while I think that's great that you have always been there for her, she doesn't seem to appreciate it in the way you want her to. It's nice for her to know that she doesn't have to do anything that is uncomfortable for her, because you will always be there. But if she doesn't do anything uncomfortable, she will never change or grow, and, correct me if I am wrong, but it doesn't seem that you can have any sort of meaningful R with her unless she does some growing.
I don't think anyone will tell you to enforce boundaries you don't want. Since the boundaries are for you, you get to decide what they are. The question is, do you remember how you felt a few weeks ago when you set those boundaries, and why? If you are willing to risk feeling like that once again, then that's your choice, right? Only you will know when you have had enough.
I do want to point out one thing, though . . . perhaps you need a 180 in your present R with your W. Because, based on your posts, it seems as though you two have been doing this same thing for a very long time, and getting the same undesirable (for you) results again and again.
She has said that she cannot move forward in a MR with me until she is okay on her own
Maybe I missed it, but what does "okay on her own" mean?
I don't know that she entirely knows, so it's tough to accomplish a goal that is undefined. However, some things she has mentioned over time:
- Financial independence - not having to count on me to be able live her life
- Emotional independence - she says that her mood drives off of my mood. She says it's nothing I'm doing, it's just her habit/pattern. Another word for this could be "detachment".
- "Get to a place where she doesn't rely on a hug from me to feel better"
- She wants to feel like she has control of her own space and the confidence to speak up to me instead of biting her tongue
A direct quote from her (via text) from New Year's Eve, which when I said I couldn't do this anymore: "Just maybe we need to be ok on our own first, if that's possible. I and we can't go forward in any direction if we don't."
Blueprint or hook?
Hmmm.
-PM
A direct quote from her (via text) from New Year's Eve, which when I said I couldn't do this anymore: "Just maybe we need to be ok on our own first, if that's possible. I and we can't go forward in any direction if we don't."
Have you asked her what that looks like to her? How she envisions each of you being OK on your own? What she needs to get there?
melissag, thanks for your response.
What is your W doing to fix herself? From your posts, I see nothing.
She is averse to counseling for some reason. I haven't pushed it, but I've encouraged it a couple of times.
She seems to be one of those people who thinks times heals all wounds. To anyone reading this who thinks that way, I hate to break it to you, but you're wrong.
Hard work can heal wounds. Acceptance can heal wounds. Neosporin can heal wounds.
But time?
Time is just a force that can be resisted. It is a force that can wear us down so that we
come to a place of acceptance. It is a force that can wear us down so that the pain motivates us
to do the hard work. But time itself is a force that the stubborn can resist.
So I'm not sure what, on the current path, will make this pattern (she gets closer, then she moves farther away, your heart is broken, you decide to set boundaries, she moves closer, and on and on) ever end. It certainly doesn't seem like she is doing anything to end it. So I guess it is up to you whether you want it to end. Is it worth the risk?
This is the first time we have actively set boundaries, but yes, she comes at me in waves: closing in and then receding. But as I said, the tide seems to be coming in and the waves are getting closer.
It's certainly possible, though, that where I am on the shore, the tide may never reach.
Something I have seen posted quite a bit around here is the LBS needing to get out of the WAS's way, so that the WAS can have his/her own "journey." I think you are still in her way. And yes, it is because she is pulling you in, but regardless of how it happens, will she ever be able to figure herself out/fix herself/know that she is okay on her own if you are always around and available?
That's what I told her when she first hugged me post-boundary setting. "If hugging you is going to set you back, then I don't want to hug you." Her response was that it wasn't setting her back, and that she's "getting there."
But maybe she is just saying that because she is afraid of losing me.
Or she just really wanted her hug, her fix.
Also, your W has never had to miss you.
In her words she misses me all the time, fights the urge to call me or text me, etc., but I get what you mean. REALLY miss me...as in, I won't be there for her for support, which is what you are about to explain...
You have always been there for her. And while I think that's great that you have always been there for her, she doesn't seem to appreciate it in the way you want her to. It's nice for her to know that she doesn't have to do anything that is uncomfortable for her, because you will always be there. But if she doesn't do anything uncomfortable, she will never change or grow, and, correct me if I am wrong, but it doesn't seem that you can have any sort of meaningful R with her unless she does some growing.
Good point, and I agree.
How do I
force her to grow? I certainly can't. I can reject her, but that seems awful. Why should *I* be the one to enforce
her boundaries? Boundaries are for me, and as you said, the WAS is supposed to be on his or her own journey. I shouldn't be making decisions
for them, on their behalf. I am not her parent.
So what do I do?
- Do I try and figure out a way to reject her without hurting her feelings?
- Do I just let her do her thing and figure out how to keep my guard up?
- Do I keep a separate set of rules - one for me and one for her?
I don't think anyone will tell you to enforce boundaries you don't want. Since the boundaries are for you, you get to decide what they are. The question is, do you remember how you felt a few weeks ago when you set those boundaries, and why? If you are willing to risk feeling like that once again, then that's your choice, right? Only you will know when you have had enough.
I do want to point out one thing, though . . . perhaps you need a 180 in your present R with your W.
The boundaries are supposed to be the 180. But if she won't enforce them on her end, then what's the point?
Because, based on your posts, it seems as though you two have been doing this same thing for a very long time, and getting the same undesirable (for you) results again and again.
The tide is coming in.
I think.
I'm tired.
-PM
A direct quote from her (via text) from New Year's Eve, which when I said I couldn't do this anymore: "Just maybe we need to be ok on our own first, if that's possible. I and we can't go forward in any direction if we don't."
Have you asked her what that looks like to her? How she envisions each of you being OK on your own? What she needs to get there?
Those bullet points above what you quoted are what she has told me. That's all I have to go off of.
-PM
In other news, the girls and I had a great weekend. They have today off of school and wanted to spend an extra night at my place!
More and more they are coming to me and asking to talk to me one-on-one. It gives me confidence that
they have confidence in
me, that they trust me, that they know I love them and have their best interests at heart at ALL times, even when they can't see it. (I'll enjoy this as long as it lasts, which probably won't be much longer as the oldest will be a full-on teenager this year.
)
We watched movies and played games. Washed the car. D10 and I went to a special gymnastics event Saturday night. D12 and I had our date Sunday evening. We had church Sunday morning, went out to eat on Saturday for lunch.
It was awesome!
-PM
Glad you had a great weekend and things are going well with your girls.
I think you are just going round and round in circles in your head, and trying to find some way to do the impossible, which is hang on to whatever it is you have with your XW in the hopes of it becoming more some day, without risking getting hurt again.
If you can figure out how to make this happen, please let me know. I will do it too.
The bottom line is, are you willing to risk repeated heartbreak for the possibility that your XW's tide will eventually come all the way to the shore where you are, and stay there? And the problem, of course, is that you have no idea what will happen, so it's kind of a crap shoot.
You are correct, you cannot force her to grow. However, you can tell her that she must address these issues if she wants to have a relationship with you. Or you can just accept that she may well never tackle her issues, and decide whether the person she is now, and the R you have now, is enough for you.
And then you need to think about whether it's even possible for her to address these issues when you are around all the time. But it seems to me to figure that out requires you to find out exactly what she means when she says she needs to make sure she is okay on her own. And no, you don't need to make and enforce boundaries for her, but you can make the boundary for you, if you want - that you won't have an R with her unless and until she makes an effort to "fix" herself.
I feel like, for all of us, our decisions on how to behave with respect to our WASs are dependent upon how we feel about ourselves and how much we can take. A few weeks ago, it seemed like you were just done. Maybe you are not quite done yet. Not ready to give up. Fair enough. You could always just keep this up until the point where you really are done. But I don't think there is any way to insulate yourself from hurt in the process.
Glad you had a great weekend and things are going well with your girls.
I think you are just going round and round in circles in your head, and trying to find some way to do the impossible, which is hang on to whatever it is you have with your XW in the hopes of it becoming more some day, without risking getting hurt again.
All my life I have dared to go past what is possible.
"To the impossible?" you may ask.
Actually, past that. To the place where the possible and the impossible meet, to become... the possimpible.
If you can figure out how to make this happen, please let me know. I will do it too.
Deal.
The bottom line is, are you willing to risk repeated heartbreak for the possibility that your XW's tide will eventually come all the way to the shore where you are, and stay there?
The bottom line for me is: is it the
right thing to do? And also: not doing something I will regret.
Plus, I'm wearing one of those yellow, ducky-shaped inner-tubes around my waist, so if and when the tide actually comes up to me, I'll be sure to float off into the water.
And the problem, of course, is that you have no idea what will happen, so it's kind of a crap shoot.
You are correct, you cannot force her to grow. However, you can tell her that she must address these issues if she wants to have a relationship with you. Or you can just accept that she may well never tackle her issues, and decide whether the person she is now, and the R you have now, is enough for you.
Well she doesn't want a relationship with me now without her issues addressed, and no I will not decide that the person she is now and the R we have now is enough for me. It is not.
And then you need to think about whether it's even possible for her to address these issues when you are around all the time. But it seems to me to figure that out requires you to find out exactly what she means when she says she needs to make sure she is okay on her own. And no, you don't need to make and enforce boundaries for her, but you can make the boundary for you, if you want - that you won't have an R with her unless and until she makes an effort to "fix" herself.
I've already done that. When she first realized she couldn't handle her lifestyle financially back in late October/early November, I was preparing myself to tell her that we couldn't get back together under those circumstances:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2400629#Post2400629http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2401583#Post2401583I feel like, for all of us, our decisions on how to behave with respect to our WASs are dependent upon how we feel about ourselves and how much we can take. A few weeks ago, it seemed like you were just done. Maybe you are not quite done yet. Not ready to give up. Fair enough. You could always just keep this up until the point where you really are done. But I don't think there is any way to insulate yourself from hurt in the process.
Well that sux. I'll let you know if I figure it out.
I DID feel done. But then I ran a little experiment that showed me I'm not ready for someone else right now, so I can't use that tool to facilitate me moving on. And I also got a kick in the seat of the pants of my morals and values, and that picked me back up again. It woke me back up, so I stood up, went and bought my ducky inner-tube floaty, and am standing on the shore again.
I may never get what I want right now...what I have wanted for the last 2+ years, but I won't surrender. Not like this.
-PM
And we cannot...we MUST NOT forget that once I've accepted a challenge, I cannot unaccept the challenge. I cannot rest until the challenge is completed.
-PM
PatientMan,
I do feel for you. I can empathize in regards of your relationship with your XW, man to man, husband to husband and more importantly your kids. It is truly sad to see WAWs hurting so much and can't seem to find their way.
Sometimes I feel that the LBH needs to completely break away from their WAW no matter how unjustified or how wrong it feels.
After so many years, it is always someone or something that you need to prioritize.
I ask you this. Is it wrong to prioritize yourself?
She seems to be one of those people who thinks times heals all wounds. To anyone reading this who thinks that way, I hate to break it to you, but you're wrong.
Hard work can heal wounds. Acceptance can heal wounds. Neosporin can heal wounds.
But time?
Time is just a force that can be resisted. It is a force that can wear us down so that we come to a place of acceptance. It is a force that can wear us down so that the pain motivates us to do the hard work. But time itself is a force that the stubborn can resist.
Couldn't agree more. Time by itself would not heal 'inner wounds'.
Thank you melissa & PM.... your conversation has given me food for thought....
"You are correct, you cannot force her to grow. However, you can tell her that she must address these issues if she wants to have a relationship with you. Or you can just accept that she may well never tackle her issues, and decide whether the person she is now, and the R you have now, is enough for you.
And then you need to think about whether it's even possible for her to address these issues when you are around all the time. But it seems to me to figure that out requires you to find out exactly what she means when she says she needs to make sure she is okay on her own. And no, you don't need to make and enforce boundaries for her, but you can make the boundary for you, if you want - that you won't have an R with her unless and until she makes an effort to "fix" herself."
This makes sense to me... I am ON BOARD as well! Thanks!!
PM - amazing.
Just don't let your tagline get old or grow stagnant: "Whenever I'm sad I STOP being sad and start being AWESOME instead. True story."
After so many years, it is always someone or something that you need to prioritize.
I ask you this. Is it wrong to prioritize yourself?
Of course not! You have to love and accept yourself to best love and accept others. And that means taking time to work on yourself, which inherently means prioritizing yourself along with those you love.
-PM
PM - amazing.
Just don't let your tagline get old or grow stagnant: "Whenever I'm sad I STOP being sad and start being AWESOME instead. True story."
I appreciate the support, Mr. F.
-PM
Oh dear, PM.
And we cannot...we MUST NOT forget that once I've accepted a challenge, I cannot unaccept the challenge. I cannot rest until the challenge is completed.
This sounds like something I would say. What is the challenge, PM? What if, instead of the challenge being making your XW come back to you (which we all know you have no control over), it was FOR YOU to live a happy life? (Irrespective of whether XW is part of it.)
Actually, past that. To the place where the possible and the impossible meet, to become... the possimpible.
I would actually call that the possimpossible. But neither one makes a damn bit of sense.
The bottom line for me is: is it the right thing to do? And also: not doing something I will regret.
What does "right"mean? Right for what? For whom? And how do you know?
Well she doesn't want a relationship with me now without her issues addressed, and no I will not decide that the person she is now and the R we have now is enough for me. It is not.
OK, so what are you doing, then?
I DID feel done. But then I ran a little experiment that showed me I'm not ready for someone else right now, so I can't use that tool to facilitate me moving on.
Ummm. Have you realized the flaw in this logic? If you continue to hang on to your XW, do you think you will
ever be ready for someone else?
Also, why do you need that tool to facilitate you moving on? You don't need to move on with someone else to move forward without your XW, do you?
And I also got a kick in the seat of the pants of my morals and values, and that picked me back up again. It woke me back up, so I stood up, went and bought my ducky inner-tube floaty, and am standing on the shore again.
I don't know how you are getting any action from any women wearing this ridiculous ducky thing on your waist, but to each her own, I guess.
But seriously . . . what are your morals and values that are in play here? And when does your happiness become part of that?
I will admit, I have thoughts along these lines. It goes something like this. My H and I promised each other to love each other through thick and thin and losing baseball seasons, bald spots, GI viruses, lice (but not pubic lice), and rainy weather (or whatever we said, I haven't been able to bring myself to read the vows yet even though I do have the write up of the whole service). And my H svcks for breaking his promises. For walking away. For not trying. For bailing when things got tough.
For caring more about his own happiness than our M or our children. So . . . if I just say OK, let's get D, and I move on without him, am I just as bad as he is??
I am not sure where to draw that line. And maybe it is because I am a woman, and I have a daughter, but I wonder . . . if I were to hang on for 2+ years, while H continues to break my heart, am I teaching her the right thing or the wrong thing?
By the way, I have to tell you that your "Neosporin can heal things" comment about made me spit out my drink. I am a big fan of clever humor.
Also, JonF made a great point. Make sure that you really are still being awesome.
Other than loving "possimpossible"... What does your W want?
I know my W is committed to our marriage from some sense of loyalty, etc, where her PA made her feel "dead inside", yadda yadda yadda.
The women I know want a strong capable future-preserving man. If you've been controlling, I can see your W maybe being a bit off-put by that full-force, but maybe it's a time to just season.
I make an amazing pork tenderloin, but for 48 hours, I do a 3x Old Bay rub to it, and then I pan-sear it for about 5 minutes. The 5 minutes is what people see, not the 48 hours rub. Are you "rubbing", not to be obscene, or searing?
So last night was one of my weeknights with the girls. XW is trying to sell her vehicle so she can get a lower monthly payment. She asked if I could stay with the girls longer so she could run an errand related to figuring out how to get the new vehicle.
Of course I said that was fine.
One of the consequences of our boundary establishment that didn't cross my mind at the time was that I was going to lose a lot of quality time with my daughters.
Our routine was I would come up after work and do a lot of the nighttime routine with them. Make sure their homework is done and help with that if needed, make sure everyone showered, brushed their teeth, and cleaned up. I would do devotions with them and tuck them in individually.
With the new boundaries I only see the girls twice during the week, and one of XW's boundaries was she wants me in her house less, to establish that as her space so she can work towards feeling the way she needs to feel to heal.
So I lost a HUGE part of my involvement with the girls. All of that stuff I do with them...gone. HUGE.
But I got to do that last night and it felt GREAT. It's only been two weeks, but I miss that so much. I can't tell you how hard that's been on me. All along we have agreed and maintained that I wanted to be as involved as possible, so to be "acting divorced" in this respect is really hurting. I miss my girls.
I call them every morning before school and D4 asked if I am coming up tonight to see them. I told her that I wasn't, that I come up on Mondays and Wednesdays, and she just started bawling.
She's 4. She doesn't understand why I'm not around more, she just misses her dad. And I hope they "get" that I WANT to see them as much as I can, that I'm not NOT seeing them as much because it's an inconvenience or because I have better things to do or because I don't love them as much. I tell them that, but I hope they "get" it.
And D7, who already knows the answer, but thought it couldn't hurt to ask, asked if I could spend the night last night so she would feel safer.
I LOVE being a dad. I want to be an involved dad. I DO NOT want to be an every other weekend dad.
I know I need to make the best of whatever time I have with them, and I do and will. But I feel like I'm losing my girls now too.
We're trying out this "acting divorced" thing because we both have places we need to get to, but I worry that it will just become the new norm instead of a temporary necessity.
-PM
I feel your pain, PM. I miss my daughter so much. It is undoubtedly the hardest part of this process. Everyone I speak with tells me, "just be strong for her. She needs you". They say, "you're a great Dad, so she will always have you in her life", that sort of thing. While that is comforting, I worry about the future connection I will have. How will things change when I move on with someone else. How will OM play a role in my relationship with D. Those are things I worry about 24/7. I assume you worry too. how can we not? We would have to be completely dense not to worry about those things.
The good news is, we do have control over this part. Just be a strong Dad for your girls, stay involved, stay positive. I have made huge efforts in myself, to separate Wife from Daughter. It has made my interactions with both of them more positive. Co-parenting is just as difficult, (if not more so), than maintaining the marriage. It takes a lot of work and a lot of tongue biting, but I honestly believe in the long run it will pay off. I wish you luck, PM. You really impress me as the type of Dad that will make it!
This sounds like something I would say. What is the challenge, PM?
It's back earlier in the thread - the final play in The Playbook. To protect the names of the innocent, it's called "The Robin".
And yes, the challenge is to get her back, but it's a secret last play, so I can't really go into the details of the steps and I really shouldn't even be talking about it too much on a public forum.
But I'll give you a hint: the last step is "Hope she says 'yes'".
What if, instead of the challenge being making your XW come back to you (which we all know you have no control over), it was FOR YOU to live a happy life? (Irrespective of whether XW is part of it.)
I won't be happy if I haven't exhausted all resources pursuing what I think is right.
I would actually call that the possimpossible. But neither one makes a damn bit of sense.
Mine makes perfect sense, you're just not watching the right TV shows.
The bottom line for me is: is it the right thing to do? And also: not doing something I will regret.
What does "right"mean? Right for what? For whom? And how do you know?
"Right" is making sure my decisions are square with two people: me and God.
I am open to counsel from others, but at the end of the day, He and I are the two I am ultimately accountable to.
Well she doesn't want a relationship with me now without her issues addressed, and no I will not decide that the person she is now and the R we have now is enough for me. It is not.
OK, so what are you doing, then?
Being patient, hoping she's "getting there" as she told me.
I DID feel done. But then I ran a little experiment that showed me I'm not ready for someone else right now, so I can't use that tool to facilitate me moving on.
Ummm. Have you realized the flaw in this logic? If you continue to hang on to your XW, do you think you will
ever be ready for someone else?
I made a vow...a covenant (not a contract). I don't know what else to say, but her actions have nothing to do with mine.
Also, why do you need that tool to facilitate you moving on? You don't need to move on with someone else to move forward without your XW, do you?
No, I don't. I was angry and pissed and wanted to see if it would help. It was a mistake.
And I also got a kick in the seat of the pants of my morals and values, and that picked me back up again. It woke me back up, so I stood up, went and bought my ducky inner-tube floaty, and am standing on the shore again.
I don't know how you are getting any action from any women wearing this ridiculous ducky thing on your waist, but to each her own, I guess.
But seriously . . . what are your morals and values that are in play here? And when does your happiness become part of that?
Well I certainly can't be happy if I'm violating my morals and values. I have found I can be happy without XW, but I can't be happy if I'm not doing what's right, which for me is standing - especially when we still have such a strong connection.
I am not sure where to draw that line. And maybe it is because I am a woman, and I have a daughter, but I wonder . . . if I were to hang on for 2+ years, while H continues to break my heart, am I teaching her the right thing or the wrong thing?
I fully believe that I am teaching my children the right things. I love their mother. I made a promise to her. As C.S. Lewis put it:
"And, of course, the promise, made when I am in love and because I am in love, to be true to the beloved as long as I live, commits me to being true even if I cease to be in love. A promise must be about things that I can do, about actions: no one can promise to go on feeling in a certain way. He might as well promise never to have a headache or always to feel hungry."
(C.S. Lewis - 1952)I am teaching them persistence, perseverance, hard work, honoring your word, respecting family, loving throughout really difficult times - even when someone is hurting you, kindness, compassion, faithfulness, goodness, gentleness, self control, humility, and trust in God.
But I can't answer that question for you. Only you can answer that question for you. Though many of our situations are so amazingly alike, they are all still unique.
-PM
I feel your pain, PM. I miss my daughter so much. It is undoubtedly the hardest part of this process. Everyone I speak with tells me, "just be strong for her. She needs you". They say, "you're a great Dad, so she will always have you in her life", that sort of thing. While that is comforting, I worry about the future connection I will have. How will things change when I move on with someone else. How will OM play a role in my relationship with D. Those are things I worry about 24/7. I assume you worry too. how can we not? We would have to be completely dense not to worry about those things.
The good news is, we do have control over this part. Just be a strong Dad for your girls, stay involved, stay positive. I have made huge efforts in myself, to separate Wife from Daughter. It has made my interactions with both of them more positive. Co-parenting is just as difficult, (if not more so), than maintaining the marriage. It takes a lot of work and a lot of tongue biting, but I honestly believe in the long run it will pay off. I wish you luck, PM. You really impress me as the type of Dad that will make it!
Thanks suckerpunch.
I will give them my all, I just want to give them
more, what I feel they deserve. I know you know what I mean.
And I will push the thought of an OM tucking them in at night, helping them with their homework and such. I'm not ready to deal with that mentally right now. I'm typically a very cool, collected, and calm person, but I am calm like a bomb.
-PM
Other than loving "possimpossible"... What does your W want?
I know my W is committed to our marriage from some sense of loyalty, etc, where her PA made her feel "dead inside", yadda yadda yadda.
The women I know want a strong capable future-preserving man. If you've been controlling, I can see your W maybe being a bit off-put by that full-force, but maybe it's a time to just season.
I make an amazing pork tenderloin, but for 48 hours, I do a 3x Old Bay rub to it, and then I pan-sear it for about 5 minutes. The 5 minutes is what people see, not the 48 hours rub. Are you "rubbing", not to be obscene, or searing?
I've backed way off and am rubbing.
I never really thought I was searing, but she saw what she thought was a flame and I guess thought I was going to
start searing, and that's what spooked her. So I take that she is still uber-sensitive to my actions and will be extremely cognizant of that when I interact with or around her.
-PM
So XW is in a bit of a pickle. She can't afford the van payment, but can't get out of the loan because of how upside down she is on it (though it is in my name).
There's nothing really I can do, and there's nothing really I should do, I'm just concerned and curious.
-PM
That sounds like a "consequence". I guess life isn't always peaches and cream on the other side of the fence.
That sounds like a "consequence". I guess life isn't always peaches and cream on the other side of the fence.
Very true.
But she needs to taste success. We can't get back together out of necessity. If we get back together, it needs to be because we both choose each other, realizing that the other person makes our lives better.
-PM
Are you afraid she'll feel like she has "no other choice" than to start working with you because of the financial problems, etc?
Are you afraid she'll feel like she has "no other choice" than to start working with you because of the financial problems, etc?
It's a thought, but I'm not afraid of it. She's pretty determined, though. I don't know if she would allow herself to do that.
But who knows, when we hit rock bottom sometimes we reevaluate things because at the bottom there is a whole new perspective.
-PM
I know it wasn't encouraging to you - but my W has come full circle after hitting rock bottom. Financially, she is ruined. Her credit will be tanked for 5+ years, and she is having to consolidate to try to get deals on her credit cards. She has always been a spender, and now she is miserable with a ton of debt and hates it. She also realizes that while she's paying off debt the next 3-5 years, that's money we could be using for nice vacations, etc.
I will say this: the fact that she hit rock bottom on this while completely separated from me was big - so it is crucial that your W have this fight without you in it; she can't blame you, and maybe her perspective of both herself, and your relationship can finally change...
I will say this: the fact that she hit rock bottom on this while completely separated from me was big - so it is crucial that your W have this fight without you in it; she can't blame you, and maybe her perspective of both herself, and your relationship can finally change...
Yeah. I just need to man up and do it.
-PM
But who knows, when we hit rock bottom sometimes we reevaluate things because at the bottom there is a whole new perspective.
I like that PM. It's very true. Such a different perspective. Thank you for that
PM,
I have hired the best early childhood specialist in the state if not the region to help me co-parent and he assures me that D4 knows whats going on and knows who caused the change to happen.
He advised me, from the beginning, to make every moment count and that at that age you build bonds through structure. She wants to know "what the plan is" and she needs to know that she is loved and not abandoned.
Make plans and dont break promises
Being a every other weekend dad [censored] BUT use that time to build anticipation. Plan ahead, "lets go on a picnic next time I see you- what should we bring?" Plan it together and she will think about, and look forward to it, during the time you are apart. Ive taken train trips to Boston, gone to baseball games, gone to the beach......all using that method. Plan, anticipate, execute. Just be consistent.
MOST OF ALL- If you WANT to be a great dad...you will be- kids see/understand the effort.
I remember when I first started the schedule with my first two, and XW1 had them from Monday through Wednesday afternoon, and by Tuesday, I thought I was going to die!
However, I soon learned quality time trumps quantity time - and whereas I was "with" them before, I'd be reading, or working on house, or whatever, so I wasn't really spending time with them. I just started getting all my stuff done when I didn't have them, and making sure they were my sole focus when I did.
Easy to say now, but it ended up being awesome.
This woman...has such a hold on me. I don't know how to break it. I remind myself of what she has done wrong, what she has done to hurt me, and that may not be the "healthiest" mental exercise to perform, but it's an effort just to break that hold. But those efforts and feelings are temporary and fleeting, and what I believe should be "right" always resurfaces.
She told me something last night, something that shouldn't bother me, but it's eating me up. It's eating me up because I haven't accepted that we're divorced, that we aren't a couple.
I don't know how to come to acceptance. Or maybe I just refuse to.
-PM
Hi PM... I TOTALLY understand. Just when I think I am "ok" and have accepted, and I am almost even excited..I begin to take another step forward... only to do so, and then put myself in tears again. That was me Yesterday. BUT, That was YESTERDAY... today I accept again.
The rollercoaster is not only the ride that they put us on, but the one that we choose to ride on our own. (if that makes any sense).
I think for me, acceptance started to creep in when I started wanting MORE for myself. Wanting a reciprocating love. Wanting unconditional love. Realizing that I deserve it. So, now I am holding out for THAT. I look at him, and "accept" that he is not quite there right now (not for me or anyone). Looking deep within myself realizing that I have self-worth helps. Listening to hypnotherapy CD's that boost MY ego... make me force and rise to acceptance. Maybe you could look into that? Might be worth a shot??
Good luck PM... (in the same boat)
So I went to see the kids last night and spend some time with them. But I had an agenda with XW. We talked for a while. I said that these boundaries that we established...we need to stick to them.
She said that it had been two weeks and she thought that we were. I reminded her of the hugs and the talks and she realized and kinda nodded her head in agreement. I think the only boundary she really wanted to consistently stick to was the every other weekend one. When she's feeling down or vulnerable she wants support from me. She still wants to talk to me about her day.
So I was motivated because I know we're both tired of being stuck in this middle ground where I can't get what I need from her and she can't grow into the person she wants to be with me in the way.
So my entire premise was, let's stick to these boundaries - to a "T" - for four weeks, and then we can regroup and reassess. Let's just DO IT and go through it.
And she started to softly cry. She said that she knew it was probably a good idea, but that she misses me and she knows she is going to miss me.
I told her that I miss her too, and that I'm going to miss her. This isn't easy. I want to watch the TV show you've been telling me about. I want to give you a massage. I want you to come over to my place and hang out and watch this season's HIMYM. I want to hug. I want to cuddle. I want to have sex (she laughed). I want to talk to you. I want to spend time with you. I LIKE BEING WITH YOU, but I'm not getting what I want from you.
So yeah, this is going to suck, but let's just DO IT and go through it, because what we've been doing isn't working.
And if we go through this and we realize that we stop missing each other then we'll have our answer on moving on. And if we find we still miss each other, but you're starting to grow on your end, then maybe that says something.
But let's just do it for four weeks and reassess. Let's just give it a shot. I'll tell you right now that I don't like the arrangements. I told her about how I don't feel like I'm involved in the kids' day-to-day lives anymore, and I don't like it.
I told her how I'm not getting what I want from her, and she isn't growing into the person she wants to be, so let's just bite the bullet and give this a shot. Because neither one of us can go on like this forever.
She said she didn't think she would feel any different in 4 weeks, so I offered 6 or 8 or 12 and she said no, let's just do the 4 initially.
The kids come down to get a snack and so I lead the devotions from the kitchen table. XW is sitting on the far counter behind me. After devotions are over, I sent the kids upstairs to get ready for bed and went over to XW who is still sitting on the kitchen counter crying.
I ask her if she is okay and she says, "No - I'm just having a bad day."
Me: What happened?
XW: Do you really want to know?
Me: Of course. I wouldn't have asked if I didn't.
XW: I'm friends with this guy at work and he told me today that he couldn't be friends with me anymore because he wants to be more than friends and I don't have feelings for him like that.
Me: That sounds tough. How do you feel?
XW: I thought we were friends, and he basically said to act like we don't know each other. I mean, I just need friends right now, and I thought he and I were friends, and it's just tough to lose one. And now you're basically telling me the same thing...that we can't be friends because you will always want more. It's just hard. Sorry. I probably shouldn't have told you that.
Me: You don't need to be sorry. I'm sorry that you lost your friend and are having a tough day.
XW: he's asked me out a few times and I keep telling him no, and finally he came to me today and said we couldn't be friends anymore because it was hurting him. But I just don't have feelings for him like that. I just thought he was my friend. Anyway, maybe I shouldn't have told you that.
Me: I'm fine. Hey, I mean, we're divorced. You're certainly free to date and don't owe me anything. I understand.
I gave her a hug and told her it was going to be okay. I hugged all the kids and left.
One other thing she said to me while we were initially talking in the living room was that I DO basically have a higher bar to clear if we ever started dating again. She said that getting to the place where she could leave me, where she was done...it was so painful that she couldn't do it again, and she knows you have to take at least a little leap of faith when you start a relationship with someone, but with me she would have to be 100% sure because she couldn't endure that again.
So she's certainly scared I'll hurt her again. I think she's scared to let her guard down around me and allow the love that's pounding on the door to come out. To be truly vulnerable to me and trust me fully again...I don't know if she can get there. She's fighting it.
I will tell you that I played it cool, but I did NOT like hearing about guys hitting on her, even though she's turning them down. After two years of separation and 7 months of divorce it's still wired in my brain that she's MINE and I just wanted to go find this person and beat the tar out of him.
Obviously I won't. She's divorced and free to do whatever she wants, but those were my feelings and I'm being honest about them.
I think a relationship for her right now would be a band-aid and would get in her way of reaching her goal. I hope, not for my sake, but for her's, that she realizes that too.
I did ask her to better define what "being okay on her own" meant, and she said not depending on me to be happy. She said if we were to try dating again from scratch (and I interjected here and said, "Yes! From scratch.") she would need to be in that okay place. She said she felt all the pressure of trying to work on the marriage from God, from her friends, from everyone in the neighborhood, because of the kids or the finances or because it's the "right" thing to do...it was just too much.
I told her I didn't want to come together because she felt pressure from God or friends or kids or finances or what is "right" either. I told her I want her to want it...that's it.
I texted her about 30 minutes after I left:
"I love you and I'm so sorry you had a bad day. Losing a friend is tough - I know. It may be hard to do this, but take it as a compliment that any male that gets to know you ends up wanting more because they see how beautiful you are inside and out.
I encourage you to pray tonight. I know that sometimes it feels like God isn't there (trust me, I've felt that and it's awful), but He always is. He's always listening and He always cares and is seeking your best interests.
I pray for you every day. That you'll be okay and that you will find the peace you seek and deserve. I will always pray for you, no matter what.
You are NOT alone. And you WILL be okay.
You are an amazing woman, [XW]. Truly amazing.
I love you.
-[PM]"
Now, you can swing away with the 2x4's, but I wasn't DB'ing. I was PM'ing.
-PM
On a positive note, I mentioned a therapist again and she seemed open to the idea. A friend of hers said that it has helped her immensely and she will probably go for the rest of her life.
I hope she pursues that route.
-PM
Being a every other weekend dad [censored] BUT use that time to build anticipation. Plan ahead, "lets go on a picnic next time I see you- what should we bring?" Plan it together and she will think about, and look forward to it, during the time you are apart. Ive taken train trips to Boston, gone to baseball games, gone to the beach......all using that method. Plan, anticipate, execute. Just be consistent.
Awesome advice!! I do this with S11 a lot and when I pick him up on Sundays he's already excited and talking about what we're going to do
You are an amazing woman, [XW]. Truly amazing.
I love you.
-[PM]"
Soooo . . . the four weeks started this morning?
You are an amazing woman, [XW]. Truly amazing.
I love you.
-[PM]"
Soooo . . . the four weeks started this morning?
Bingo.
-PM
I think for you to start your four weeks on a text like that is a great parting gift/note. Right now you don't have an R problem, you have a wife-trapped-in-her-own-head problem.
I remember when I finally pulled back for real as you have stated is your intention, my W got real angry about it, almost snippy - but it was her realizing she was losing me. When she found out through a mutual friend that some pretty girl that made $80k/year was asking about me, that was the final straw.
I'm sure you'll chuckle to think of me advocating patience with my track record, but it IS your name! Now, let W soak for these four weeks...
I think for you to start your four weeks on a text like that is a great parting gift/note. Right now you don't have an R problem, you have a wife-trapped-in-her-own-head problem.
Thanks!
Another step completed! Another step closer!
-PM
Holy guacamole. I had to resist every animal instinct and urge to turn down the most beautiful woman in the world today. She more than threw herself at me. She loaded herself up in a cannon and shot herself at me.
Whoa.
As much as I wanted to - and boy, did I want to - I cannot believe I got out of there without taking care of b'niss.
I'm good (as in, I'm okay). I think she understands that the reason we didn't do anything was because I am on a mission - WE'RE on a mission. I don't think she was offended, but maybe she realized that I'm serious about what needs to happen for us to move forward.
Whew.
Time for a cold shower.
-PM
Wow PM. this is crazy, I'm glad your being cautious here. I think it's the right thing to do. I'm so glad things are moving in a positive direction.
Just curious, How long have you been divorced?
Check my sig.
-PM
Cold shower PM? or a tub full of ice?
Wow, things are kinda crazy right now. I'm swamped at work, but will update things with a new thread at some point.
-PM