I have learned so much and become more hopeful through this board - thank you! I’ve decided to post my own story to help me organize my thoughts and hopefully get some advice/tips on how to proceed given what’s happened the last several weeks. I’m a pretty detail-oriented person so I apologize for the length.
Background: H and I are both 28. M for 2.5 years, no kids, started dating in high school and have been together for 10 years with a few “off” periods. Bought a house a year ago.
Dec. 14: H is particularly cranky/not very nice. Not responsive to my questions about going out to dinner, maybe going out and doing something fun, etc. I ask what his deal is - he replies he’s not happy with our marriage - that we’ve become more like roommates or good friends than H/W and that we’ve been taking our own separate paths. This isn’t necessarily surprising as I haven’t been super happy as of late either, but didn’t realize he felt similarly. I’m not too worried at this point. I ask him about reading a Gottman book that I’ve heard good things about. He agrees that we could read one chapter at a time and do the exercises afterwards. I download the ebook.
Dec. 15: I see H is reading the ebook. I ask him where he’s at and if we can schedule a time to do the exercises together. He says “We could try it but I don’t see any of this working. All of the examples in the book of people who eventually get divorced sound just like us. I don’t want to get your hopes up because this is just how we are and neither of us are going to change”
Of course, I do everything wrong after this and completely flip out. For the next week I cry, plead, mope around, beg, promise I’ll do anything, ask him what’s wrong, ask him how he can just give up so quickly, remind him about how hard we worked to buy our house and get to where we are. His responses continue to be along the lines of “I’m done. Nothing is going to change. There’s no point in telling you why I’m unhappy because you’ll just argue with me about it. You’re not respecting what I want regarding this.” However, he sees no problem with us living together until things are “finalized” because he thinks we can con’t to be good friends. I move all my stuff immediately to the guest room/guest bathroom. Everything I do makes it clear that I’m super depressed and that my life is over.
December 23: I send him an e-mail stating that it may be best if he goes somewhere else for awhile so we can have some time apart (probably also a mistake). Between Christmas Eve and NYE we alternate spending 1-2 days at a time away from the house by visiting our families. We see each other briefly in the mornings/evenings but I start cutting off my contact with me - any conversations we have are purely logistics/household stuff and I’m very cold/uncaring.
December 28 - I read DR and realize my errors! I also realize while we’re apart that trying to be cold and having no contact is just making me miserable and probably not helping things given that it’s just perpetuating what he’s stated has been going poorly. I make it a point to start instituting techniques - 180’s, GAL, some of the things from the LRT that I can do while still living together like not initiating R talk, being attentive and listening, not leaving the room if he enters it and I’m already there, not asking where he’s going/when he’ll be back, etc. In general, acting more like he’s a friend/good acquaintance than someone I’m angry at and want to avoid!
After reading DR I slip up a little (maybe? maybe not?) and initiate an R talk when we’re both done having our holiday travels where I calmly ask if he can tell me more about what he's unhappy with, and that I will not argue or try to fix it - it would just help me understand him better. I just want to listen to his thoughts. This seems to work as he talks to me for 1-2 hours about everything he’s thinking/feeling. Some of the reasons why he wants to leave:
-Lack of ML. His ideal frequency is 4-5 times a week (I had no idea!) - we’ve been more around 3-4 times a month for the past year or so.
-Lack of romantic connection/attraction to me now. He sees me as a really good friend and still wants me to be in his life.
-I bring up negative things from the past and can’t let them go (true)
-He doesn’t feel trusted and he feels like he always has to report back to me and can’t just go out and have fun if he’s out with friends/coworkers (true. There’ve been several times over the past 10 years that he’s done things that have disappointed me that I blow out of proportion and bring up constantly whenever he's in a similar situation)
-ultimatums/feeling pressured into decisions he didn’t want to make. He says he wasn’t really ready to get engaged when we did, but felt he had to because I gave him an ultimatum (kind of true, longer story to that). He’s not sure if marrying me was the right decision, though he says he did mean everything he said when we said our vows (?). It’s becoming clear that I’ve been attempting to control too much in many aspects of his life (his decisions/timeframe for making them, his activities like how much time he spends on fantasy sports, who he hangs out with, etc) and that I really need to work on this.
Throughout the conversation I just listened and validated, didn’t argue or try to point out what I could fix. Afterwards he said he felt a lot better about our situation and that I was willing to just listen/respect his feelings, but that it “didn’t change anything”.
From New Year’s Eve onwards (even after the slip up below) we’ve been in this strange holding pattern of going about our normal activities, but not bringing up anything about R, D, etc. I’ve tried to detach myself somewhat and follow the DB techniques but it’s hard to be mysterious/GAL when we live together and share a car (that he purchased, so I can’t exactly just take off and not let him know when I’ll be back because he has first dibs on it). It actually feels better than it has in a long time, but I’m not sure if it means my small changes/attitude shift is actually working or if he’s just checked out already so he’s happier in general. I’ve begun working on small goals like going to the gym regularly as one just opened nearby and looking into getting my own car so that we’re not so dependent on each other’s schedules.
January 2: I slip up again - grr! I went out to dinner w/ a friend who said there must be someone else he’s interested in or else he wouldn’t just say he’s done without going to counseling or making attempts to repair things. During my flipout phase I asked him multiple times if there was someone else and he said no - I believed him. I got really fixated on this and when I get home ask:
Me: I’ve been thinking more about what’s happening, and it’s hard for me to make sense of it all. It’s very confusing that you’re not interested in working on things. I have to wonder if maybe there’s something else going on that’s factoring into this. Maybe someone else you’ve been talking to or even the idea of someone else?
H: *long pause* I’m not seeing anyone or having an affair..
Me: Maybe it’s not even that. Some people have emotional affairs where they confide a lot and get attached to someone else, like they would with their spouse.
H: *another long pause* Well… there’s kind of something. It’s really messed up though.
Me: Sounds like it’s been hard for you. Do you want to talk about it? I’d be happy to listen if that would help.
H proceeds to talk to me for 2-3 hours about the following situation. I’ll try and summarize through his viewpoint: Over the past few months he’s been talking with a woman at work (26, married, pregnant w/ 3rd child) about their marriages and things they’ve been unhappy with - complaining basically. He’s developed a friendship with her, finds her attractive, and says they are very “compatible” and have similar interests. And yet, he says she reminds him a lot of me in terms of what she’s like and her interests (but we don’t have similar interests? Curious.)
Talking to her has “helped him realize” that there are other people out there that he could be happier with than me, even if it’s not necessarily her. He sees potential with this woman for something more than friends, but realizes that would be a bad idea for a number of reasons. But, just the idea of is enough for him to take the chance to leave me and explore these “other people” who may or may not exist. He fears if we stay married that he’ll have to have an affair at some point just to see what it'd be like with someone else, and he doesn’t want to be a cheater. He mentioned that who knows what may happen in the future, maybe some time after getting a D he’ll find that it was a mistake to D and we could very well get back together (??), but that “nothing changes unless there’s a change” and he needs this change to find out. One of his coworkers has been egging him on to see how far he can take it with this woman (grr!).
It sounds like he hasn’t done any actual research into the process of getting a D or investigated options, beyond a friend handing him a business card for a family lawyer. That makes me hopeful that I’ll have time and that he’s not eager to take initiate action (but who knows? I need to stop mind-reading!) After all this talk he says again that he feels much closer to me, especially since I didn’t “go crazy”, but he still just thinks of me as a really good friend.
So, here are some specific questions I’m wondering about, but general advice is also welcome:
1) ML. He’s identified this as an issue. I’m certainly interested. Should I try to initiate and see what happens, or is that considered pursuing? Maybe there’s a way to do so w/out “pursuing”? Rebuilding that aspect may help him see whether or not I’m truly “just” a friend. And this wouldn’t be just for him, it would also be for me, as I now see that I was terrible at initiating things or making it clear that I was interested.
2) How should I approach living together in terms of day-to-day logistics? For example, I was going to the grocery store the other day and he asked if he could come with to pick out some food for himself (at least he knew he shouldn’t ask me to get things for him!) I wasn’t sure if I should say yes, or say no and try and separate our activities more. There are a lot of things like that that I’m not sure how to address and if being friendly/following his lead is best, or if I should try to go more “gray” and not do things like watch TV in the same room, go on errands together, etc. I think living together is what needs to happen for now because I’ve read that I shouldn’t be the first to leave, and he’s not leaving either (he thinks he may be able to refi and buy me out of the house - I have no interest in fighting for it because I can’t afford it on my own.). Eventually if he does start the paperwork, I guess I’ll have to think about whether it’s in my best interest to get out and rent an apt. sooner rather than later. I feel torn on this because part of me feels like he needs to see what it’s like to not have me around at all, as I’m not really interested in being friends with him/letting him have it “all” if we do D, but I also fear that if I’m the one walking out it will validate all his thoughts and push him further to take action.
3) How should I approach questions/statements about logistics of D/life after D? For example, the other day he mentioned something about how maybe we could continue to have a joint cell phone plan and he’d just send me money every month. I said I didn’t think that would work because the point is that we’d be separating all parts of our lives, including finances. He said it’d be expensive to have individual plans, maybe he could get added back to his parent’s family plan, etc. I ended the conversation by saying “I don’t know that I can really talk or think about this unless it becomes necessary.” He’s also mentioned things about selling vs. keeping the house and I’m just not sure how cooperative to be. I certainly won’t provide him suggestions on what to do!
Phew, those were a lot of thoughts. Thanks for reading if you got this far!
Welcome to the board
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what he says and half of what he does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Your H is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Thanks, Cadet. I feel like I know what I need to do after re-reading DR so many times.. but actually doing it is so hard! It's probably not detaching if I'm wondering every day if today's the day I'll come home and he says he has an L appointment, or what it means that he hasn't mentioned anything about our R/D in a week now. But, hard to keep those thoughts out of my head. Guess I have to get busier (which should be easier to do now that it doesn't feel like -50 degrees outside!)
You mentioned reading DR, so hopefully you have a good handle on how to act around him now. Also read
Sandi2's 37 Rules and live those tips! Much of what you wrote actually sounds pretty typical of stories around here. The bottom line is neither of you worked on the M. Neither of you made an effort to fill the other's love tank. If he hadn't BD'd you, you probably would have BD'd him somewhere down the road. Read the 5 Love Languages, it'll help you understand how your M got here.
1) ML. He’s identified this as an issue. I’m certainly interested. Should I try to initiate and see what happens, or is that considered pursuing?
Initiating it is definitely pursuit. One of the problems in DB'ing is that we want to "fix" all the previous problems, so if infrequent ML was an issue then we think we need to double or triple up on that. The problem is once a spouse is a WAS, they don't want that AT ALL. So there are some things that you can't really do a 180 on and this is one of them.
2) How should I approach living together in terms of day-to-day logistics? For example, I was going to the grocery store the other day and he asked if he could come with to pick out some food for himself (at least he knew he shouldn’t ask me to get things for him!) I wasn’t sure if I should say yes, or say no and try and separate our activities more.
This is kind of a gray area, but personally before W moved out I tried to show her as much as I could what life would be like if she decided to stay. So I was the best husband and father I could be during that time. She still left and is still gone, so I don't know that it helped any, but I have no regrets about it.
3) How should I approach questions/statements about logistics of D/life after D?
Face it head on. Don't initiate convos, but if he brings it up then it's OK to discuss. Make it clear to him that you WILL protect yourself, you're not just going to roll over and let him do what he wants. You want to show him strength, dignity, independence and integrity throughout this process.
KGirl, that's a painful journey you've been on for sure. When I was reading your summary I was thinking "this guy is seeing someone else" and sure enough, you discovered the same thing. Your H is involved in an emotional affair, which is to say that his feelings for his co-worker have gone over the line and he's feeling "in love" with her and therefore not with you.
As you've probably read, this is always initially based on fantasy -- when people feel "in love" they put the object of their desire on a pedestal, don't see any negatives, and in fact will twist negatives into positives. I mean, the woman is pregnant with her third child, that should be a "don't mess with this person's marriage" flag to any rational person but your H is able to just pretend everything is okay.
So what can you do? As AnotherStander has pointed out, read the 37 rules and start getting really good at "act as if". A couple things to think about:
Your H's decision to wander usually arose from some level of resentment he was carrying around. Once he found himself over the line, the easiest thing to do is to exaggerate the resentment, and invent new things to be resentful about in order to justify the affair he is having. That's why they say "believe nothing they say" because a lot of it is just nonsense used to justify the affair.
That said, you want to avoid doing anything yourself that will make him resent you more. Blaming him, laying on guilt, publicizing his affair, all that stuff will make him resent you more and drive you apart, as will pursuing him.
He wants space from you right now, so if you fail to respect that and pursue him two things will happen (1) he will run further away, and (2) your value will diminish in his eyes because you are putting yourself in a "one down" position.
That is why "get a life" and "act as if" are so very important. They re-establish your value both to him and to yourself. You want to be the prize to be won.
The third tenant is "180" which is to say look at the things that bothered your spouse over the course of your relationship, determine which ones you want to change *for yourself* and then change them. If you're doing it to put on a show for him or as a device to get him back, he will see through it. 180 has to be for you, for real, and a long term commitment -- something you do when no one else is watching or acknowledging.
Your best course of action at this point is to be friendly and polite, but also to have your own life, which is to say go out and have fun!
Acc
Thanks, AS and ACC.
AS - I read 5LL. Hard to know for sure since I can't ask H to take the test but I think he needs words of affirmation. There was a recurring theme of me not being supportive enough, appreciative enough, complimenting enough, encouraging enough, etc. when he told me why he wasn't happy. For example, in the fall he passed a very difficult test for work that people rarely pass on the first time, and he said I didn't seem happy for him - I wasn't telling him or others that I was proud of him. I kinda wasn't happy for him because for the 6 mo. he was studying for the test he was awful... he'd agree to do something with me and then as soon as we'd get there say "so how long do we have to do this? 'Cause I really need to get home and study". I started associating the test w/ negative things so it was really hard for me to be happy about it, since I felt so abandoned during it. I think, though, that this is something I can be better at without it being pursuing or needy? Complimenting him on his shirt, or thanking him for making dinner or shoveling snow, etc.
I'm scared at this point to let go/detach... I think it's because if I really do "move on", then that means I'm done and no longer interested in staying married... but the whole point of DB is trying to stay married! It feels conflicting. Seems like others feel similarly.
Feeling super confused today. I'm trying my best to follow the rules, detach, and give him space, but it's like he's thwarting my every move! I go to watch TV in the other room, H comes in to watch with me because he wants to see that show, too. I go to the guest room (where I'm sleeping) to read a book, H comes in to ask me questions/show me a picture of the cat/tell me a random story about work. H says he's going to the grocery store, I say "OK, I'll plan to go later in the day" and he says "well why don't we go together to save a trip?" I don't know what to do besides live somewhere else! He's much nicer and spending more time with me almost than before the BD. I don't know what to make of it. I know I shouldn't mind read, but I wonder if these are "baby steps" that I keep reading about or if they mean nothing? I've avoided R talk since I pushed him to tell him about the apparent EA, and the only things he's said are that he plans to call a lawyer sometime "this week" to learn more about the process because he was "too busy" last week.
I'm also really struggling with not having a "plan". I've always been the "doer" or "planner", and to not have a plan is driving me crazy. I know I just need to let go and be patient, but part of me wonders if I'm living in a fantasy world by not taking steps to establish my independence/single life (like looking for an apartment, separating joint finances, etc.) Is "acting as if" I'm moving on more of an attitude than actually taking logistical steps?
AS - I read 5LL. Hard to know for sure since I can't ask H to take the test but I think he needs words of affirmation.
Most men's PLL is PT, but that does not mean he doesn't respond to other LL's. Mine is PT, but I definitely respond to WoA as well. The things you described really struck a chord with me as these were areas my W was unsupportive in too. I have since learned through reading No More Mister Nice Guy that I was seeking too much affirmation from my W though. So when I read you say that your H thinks you were not being supportive enough, appreciative enough, complimenting enough, encouraging enough, etc. It makes me think that maybe hs is too codependent on you like I was on my W. So on the one hand you could do better in this area, but on the other hand this may be an indication of HIS unhealthy patterns that HE needs to address. For example-
in the fall he passed a very difficult test for work that people rarely pass on the first time, and he said I didn't seem happy for him - I wasn't telling him or others that I was proud of him.
HE should he happy for HIMSELF. It's a personal accomplishment, and his joy of completing it should come from within. Whatever praise he gets from others should just be icing on the cake, not a requirement for him to feel valued.
I think, though, that this is something I can be better at without it being pursuing or needy? Complimenting him on his shirt, or thanking him for making dinner or shoveling snow, etc.
Yes, exactly. Follow 5LL on this, don't just say "thanks for dinner". Say things like "I really enjoyed that dinner, I can't tell you how much I appreciate that you do things like this for me, you really are a great person."
I'm scared at this point to let go/detach... I think it's because if I really do "move on", then that means I'm done and no longer interested in staying married... but the whole point of DB is trying to stay married! It feels conflicting. Seems like others feel similarly.
Yes, people do feel that way because DB'ing is counterintuitive. Your mind is telling you to pursue, beg, plead, negoatiate, reason. Why? Because in a healthy marriage when there is conflict, those things are how you resolve the conflict. But those things DO NOT WORK in a broken marriage with a WAS. They just drive the WAS farther away.
but it's like he's thwarting my every move! I go to watch TV in the other room, H comes in to watch with me because he wants to see that show, too. I go to the guest room (where I'm sleeping) to read a book, H comes in to ask me questions/show me a picture of the cat/tell me a random story about work. H says he's going to the grocery store, I say "OK, I'll plan to go later in the day" and he says "well why don't we go together to save a trip?"
Those things are him pursuing you, and that is fine! You don't have to run away from him all the time. DB'ing is just about you not pursuing him. So don't follow him around like a puppy dog, but if he follows you then it's OK.
He's much nicer and spending more time with me almost than before the BD. I don't know what to make of it.
Nothing, have no expectations. He may be warming up to you, or it may mean nothing. After BD my W was exceedingly nice. She wanted to do stuff together as a family, eat together, travel together, etc. But whenever I asked about her future plans, she was still totally set on moving out and she did just that.
I'm also really struggling with not having a "plan". I've always been the "doer" or "planner", and to not have a plan is driving me crazy.
Yeah, that's me too. I wanted so bad to "control" the situation. But that just makes things worse. You have to let go of all control, remove all pressure, leave him to sort it out himself. I found patience that I never thought possible, and if I can do it than anyone can, that's for sure!
So I was doing pretty well at being positive, acting as if I was moving on, etc. (even my IC commented that I was in a much better place than I was two weeks ago when I was last there) and was feeling really hopeful that H hadn't taken any actual action towards D yet (though no actions in the other direction either)...
and now I've had a major setback. Totally my fault. I was snooping (I know, I know.. scold me now) in H's work bag to see if he had the business card for the lawyer in there or something else that would point to a D... and found condoms in one of the inside pockets. They could very well be from a trip we took where he left right from work, or put there years ago, who knows. He has a tendency to leave random things like old movie tickets, gum wrappers, etc. in his various pockets for a long time and not notice them. I'm racking my brain trying to figure out if we would have ever gone someplace together where he'd take his work bag or have a reason to put them in there. But all I can think about now is that he's seeing someone after work or at work, like the person he's having/had the EA with. Even though logically it makes no sense because he's not going to work or coming home later than normal, and the "OW" if it even is that is married w/ two kids so it's unlikely he can sneak over to her place. Even though he's said after BD that there's no way he'd ever physically cheat on me because that goes against everything he stands for and I so want to believe him on that.
Clearly I can't confront him about it. How do I cope with this? Imagine the best case scenario (even though I could just be denying the truth) and that they're just there from some long-ago time that I can't think of? Is it normal male behavior to carry condoms around even if you don't have active plans to use them? Ugh... I feel sick. I don't know how long I can keep it in without asking him about it, so at least I know one way or the other.
After sleeping on it I think I know the answer to my own question : ) Asking about my "find" is not going to get me closer to my goal of him coming around and wanting to make an attempt at fixing our M instead of walking away. There will be a time and a place later, if things do turn around, to ask this, but there's no point in asking now.
On another note, today I went to look at an apartment just to get some ideas and so I could feel like I was doing something to help myself if I suddenly couldn't take living in my house anymore. I told H I was leaving for an appointment, and that's it. When I got home..
Me: Shoot, I forgot to get a snow scraper for the car on my way home.
H: Where did you go?
Me: *pause* I went to look at an apartment
H: You went to an apartment to get a snow scraper? *joking tone*
Me: No, I was going to get it on the way back.
And then he just goes about like normal, or whatever that is nowadays. No "oh good, you should really find a new place to live" or "maybe you shouldn't do that yet" or questions about where it is or what it's like. Just nothing. Shouldn't there be SOME kind of reaction?! WAS's are confusing especially if they don't actually "walk away"... just stay where they are but say they don't want to be married.
About the condoms, let it go. The "find" only has meaning if you give it meaning.
And as you said in your latest post, it doesn't move you closer to your goal.
Today has been a tough day for me, probably because it's a day off of work and I don't have enough things to do besides think about the crappy state of things... and it's snowing so hard to go anywhere. Guess it's better to journal it out here than to cry and yell at H when he gets home.
I'm really struggling with this limbo state. Half the time I'm thinking "There's every reason to be positive! He hasn't taken any actual action yet, or moved out, and keeps coming home every night... there must be some doubt in his mind. I just need to be the best person I can be and stay positive." But then the other half of the time I'm angry at myself/him and thinking "Get real, K. He said it's over and has zero interest in working on things. Stop getting your hopes up and reading all these books and just start taking steps to move on with your life". I just got thrown into the latter state of mind when I logged into my online calendering and saw he was no longer sharing his calendar with me (which he never put anything in besides some work things that I probably shouldn't be seeing anyway, but still...)
How do I know when it's time to say enough is enough and actually move on with my life (move out, file for D myself, etc.)? Obviously there's no magic timeline or date and I'm only about a month into this, but did anyone else get to a point where they felt like they had left no stone unturned and needed to take action for themselves? What feelings/thoughts did you have that led you there?
Hi kgirl. I think about those things all the time. I have been in my situation for going on 8 mon the which most people here will say isn't near long enough. I think the question to ask yourself is are you really ready to move on or is it a tactic to win him back or take away the pain. If the answer is either of those then I wouldn't do anything. You can move on with 90% of your life while still married. The only thing you really can't do is look for someone else (I guess that's debatable too though). Are you in a spot where you can date someone else anyway?
It's difficult to do and I struggle with it every minute of every day but that's why this is such tough stuff. You will learn a lot about yourself and your weaknesses and will be a better person for it.
When you're ready, you'll know.
KG, I had this same convo with my IC today. He kept telling me I'll know when I know. I agree, in some ways you think it would be easier to just throw in the towel because at least you would know what the next steps are!!!
But, as dingo so rightly pointed out, it most likely would just be a tactic to take away the pain. I think we all so desperately want the pain to go away!!
My IC insists I will be a better person for having gone through this... I just wish we had a fast forward button!!
You both are right. Getting the ball rolling myself would be a tactic to:
A) get him to realize what he's missing by not having me around
B) make it easier for myself. It's so hard coming home every day not knowing if today's "the day" that he is checking with a L, and to have to refrain from sharing my day with him, saying ILY, giving him a hug, avoiding anything that could cause resentment, etc. Like someone else mentioned in another thread, it's exhausting to be doing this day in and day out without any expectations or reciprocation.
But, you're right, there are many things I can do while still here. Right now H is in the kitchen struggling to figure out dinner since I made my own before he got home from work. Not out of spite, just figured "I'm hungry, and if H wasn't here I'd go ahead and eat right now, so that's what I will do."
With respect to the lawyer, you can't control what he does so don't worry about it. Easier said than done but it's all you can do.
With respect to the dinner, just make sure your actions don't come across as punishment or spiteful. Rather, make sure in your mind you aren't doing things for those reasons. You cannot control how your actions are perceived.
I can't tell you how lucky you are to have found this site so soon into your situation. Please please please take all the vets (of which I am not one :P) advice. It's also hard because a lot of it is counterintuitive but they know their business.
Just nothing. Shouldn't there be SOME kind of reaction?! WAS's are confusing especially if they don't actually "walk away"... just stay where they are but say they don't want to be married.
I know how you feel KGirl! Iam in the same boat as you, only my H told me he was having an affair and won't stop seeing her..
My advice would be to try and take the focus off of him, continue doing things for yourself and don't read into his words/actions too much. Continue with the 180's, LRT, GAL, and in the end YOU will feel better..
As a newbie myself, I know it's harder to do than read/say it but we must have hope ..
I will definitely keep tabs on you!
Ugh. I definitely pursued today and got smacked (emotionally, not physically, don't worry). I knew I probably shouldn't but I guess I just couldn't help myself...
Texted H this morning(paraphrasing here) that I was having a lot of racy dreams lately and wondering if he'd be interested in hooking up tonight. No answer all day. Come home, first thing out of H's mouth is "are you going to the grocery store tonight?" So I have to say..
Me: I don't know... are you going to answer my text? A simple yes or no is fine, I was just curious.
H: I don't know. I've been thinking about it
*not sure what "it" is.. my text? us? who knows*
Me: Do you want to talk about it? I'm happy to listen.
H: I don't understand why you'd want to do it.
*that is definitely referring to my text..*
Me: Well... I'm still attracted to you and the urge just doesn't go away...
H: Where was that 2 years ago?
Me: I know, I wasn't good about that in the past. I realize that now and if you'd give me a chance to show you..
H: We've already talked about this. There's nothing more to talk about.
*pause*
Me: OK, fine. Yes, I'm going to the store.
H asks if I can get him a loaf of bread...
WT*..? What I would like to say is "If you're so 'done' then why don't you get your *** in gear and serve me some D papers? What the heck are you doing still here and still talking to me and being nice? and asking me to get you bread?"
So now I just feel like crap being reminded that he's "done". I REALLY need to figure out how to not think about him or wanting to involve him in my life and just ignore him and think about me. Hard when he keeps asking me things like "were you making anything for dinner?" or "are you going to the store tonight?" I kinda want him to just go away and leave me alone.
Thinking on it more... I think it's hard for me to stop pursuing because I have this fear that if I do really act as if I'm "leting go" (which I'm not sure what that would look like beyond trying to avoid him and be gone from the house as much as possible) then he'll think "See, I knew she didn't really care, now it's obvious. We're more like roommates now than ever" - one of his complaints is that we were more like roommates than H/W. Is this an unfounded fear? I know it's counterintuitive but I could see all of this detaching/GAL as totally backfiring and just fueling his "we're not connected, like I thought" fire.
It might but pursuing someone that treats you like dogshit makes you look desperate and causes them to lose respect for you and those is definitely not attractive. By standing up for yourself you appear confident and secure and that is attractive.
It is so hard and I still struggle with it with every interaction but you cannot accept the table scraps. It's been said a million and one times on these forums. People want what they can't have and people value what they have to work for and devalue things that are given freely. It's counterintuitive and reverse psychology and feels like you're playing a game. Remember though, the real purpose is to protect yourself.
I got all the same lines about not being intimate enough (my wife stopped taking her BC pills and decided not to tell me for a few months so there was a period of no sex). I got the 'we are best friends but not lovers' line too. WWhat I think that means is that the WAS is confusing real companion love for exciting new love. I did everything I could to change that. She wasn't at all interested and all it did was push her further away.
Kgirl, a lot of the DB'n feels counter intuitive. Almost all of it feels wrong at certain times. But your missing the point, its not how it makes you feel sometimes, its about letting go of how you feel it makes him feel. If that makes sense? To stop mind reading on how HE might take it. Your having expectations that will surely only let you down time and time again.
First, the point is to show strength that you CAN make it without him, even if your not feeling it. FAKE it till you make it. Second, he cant miss what your always trying to give him. He wont feel your loss if your making yourself "available". Finally, you need to be able to act like nothing he does can hurt you, let it roll right off you.
It will all feel like monumental tasks at times, but you need to show happy, act happy, be happy at ALL times. And if none of that works, remember this, the more you pursue the WORSE your making it. Period!!!Theres no way your going to be perfect doing this, but when you fall, get back up and get at it again.
Your trying so hard to have the perfect response, say the right thing, be the perfect wife. All while he's got a wall up around him a MILE tall. Be the person only a fool would leave, are you that person yet? then get to work. You cant live your life in response to his, your only holding yourself back. The more you hold growth back, the easier your making it for him to see he's making the right choices.
Are you following anyone else's sitch? find one that you can relate to, but make sure its a longer one, like 4-5 threads/parts. And read it from the beginning, see if you can find the mistakes or progress in the thread. Pay attention to how LONG this process can take. If you aren't going to have the patience to let this all play out, your right you might as well file right now, and save yourself the time.
KG, you barely a warm cup of coffee into this, your panicking, your not in control of yourself, and your not following the 37 rules. So I know you have work to do, its time to stop thinking about what and why he's going thru this. And focus on your part of why this happened, fix what you can, the rest will play out all by itself.
ditto what fly said. BTW, Kgirl, you really didn't backslide that bad. forgive yourself. Start again tomorrow and move forward. If you really think about it, you told you H that you are attracted to him and wanted to ML. I could think of a lot worse things to say to someone.
I'm learning too. move forward. Start with forgiving yourself for the slip and just grind it out
Thanks, Fly and Paul. I need people to keep me honest here
Starting right now I am letting go of the backslide(s) and moving forward. Will re-read the 37 rules regularly, and when I start feeling frustrated that there are too many "do nots" compared to "dos", I will channel my need to "do" into making plans for myself! A goal for myself this weekend is to go to a movie by myself. I've never done it, but there's one I really want to see and just going and doing it without waiting for someone to go with me will be a good step forward, I think. As for fixing my parts of why this happened, I can continue to be thankful/appreciative when he helps out with things around the house, and I need to continue to not ask him about his plans or be jealous/insecure when he goes and does something without me (this has been pretty easy so far because he hasn't really done anything since the BD besides go to work, watch tv, check fantasy sports, and play games on his phone).
Re: following threads, I've been reading several from the beginning to now, but it's sometimes hard to relate because many of the stories mention that their spouses were wavering/went back and forth from the beginning on leaving vs. working on things. I think finding a thread or two where the S was DONE, no ifs, ands, or buts, but then eventually came around to wondering if things could be fixed, would be encouraging and more relate-able, because it's hard to be hopeful when H sounds so firm on his decision. I'll keep digging - any suggestions?
KGirl,
Go to the threads on piecing and reconciling and you'll find those stories you want! Also, in the forum called "another divorce busted" there links to threads that you can follow aaaalllllllllllllllll the way back from beginning. You'll see many, if not most started out with the WAS being convinced they are finished, that's it, nothin else to say...
Hang in there!
I think finding a thread or two where the S was DONE, no ifs, ands, or buts, but then eventually came around to wondering if things could be fixed, would be encouraging and more relate-able, because it's hard to be hopeful when H sounds so firm on his decision. I'll keep digging - any suggestions?
It's a lot of reading, but check out
Denver's threads. They were S'd and she was heavily involved in an A. He caught her with OM and flipped out, that was it for him. They were full speed ahead on D. He was referring to her on the forums as "STBXW" (soon-to-be-ex-wife). The turnaround was sudden and dramatic. It happened against seemingly insurmountable odds.
He hasn't posted in quite some time, but his threads span from just after BD all the way through piecing, and he posted frequently so you really get a good idea of everything he went through.
Thanks, AS. Have started to read it and slowly working my way through - it's definitely a long story!
I've been doing a lot of thinking the past few days on a few topics:
-I think I can safely say I've taken my H "off the pedestal". I've met with an IC a few times and one of the exercises I was asked to do was write out my needs in a relationship. I'm not optimistic that H would be able to meet those needs if he were to come around. I'm now realizing that my H is much like one of the examples in DR - the one where the wife is unhappy with the husband when he goes out late w/ friends, MWD asks him what was different about the times where she was not unhappy, he says it's when he checked in with her to let her know where he was and when he'd be back, MWD says "why not do that all the time?" and H says "because I don't think I should have to!" That's my H to a T. If it doesn't make sense to him or is something he "shouldn't have to do", he won't do it, even if it would make someone else (me) much happier and would cause him no harm or pain. Personal example: I got kinda sad one day when I went on facebook and 3 people my age either had a baby or found out they were pregnant that day. I know I'm not ready for kids but I just felt kinda left out. I shared this with my H, who responded in anger "why are you upset about that?? That's just stupid. We know we don't want kids right now, who cares what they are doing". When I said I know but it just made me sad and I just wanted him to listen, he said "No, I'm not just gonna sit and listen to something that I think is dumb and makes no sense." Same w/ being out after work, not letting me see his e-mail ("There's nothing to hide, but I'm allowed to have my privacy"), etc. I just can't see him losing his stubbornness/self-righteousness for the sake of our marriage and that makes me sad.
-The main 180 that I've been trying (as the rest of them are "not doing" things, like not questioning where he is/being jealous or controlling about his activities) is also making me sad and frustrated, and I'm not sure if I should keep doing it. As mentioned earlier H feels like I'm not complimentary/admiring/proud/appreciative of him, and that doesn't come easy for, so I've been trying to do more of that. However, 90% of the time he responds in a negative/smart-*** way, so it's not encouraging me to keep doing it. Examples of responses he gives when I tell him I appreciate him making dinner, or getting up early to clear snow, or that I really like that shirt on him:
-"well it had to be done and someone had to do it"
-"I was making dinner for myself anyway"
-"I know, everyone at work tells me that" (re: the shirt)
-"You already told me that last time I did that/wore that"
I won't say never, but hardly ever is it just a "thanks", "you're welcome", or even just a "yep". This is where I can only work on myself so far and he has to figure himself out. If this is how he reacts when people try to compliment him or appreciate him, it's no wonder others/I stopped. He's even irritable/rude to me lately with small talk, even if he starts the conversation and I respond to him. The only time he's happy is if he starts talking and I just sit and listen and not say anything. Maybe this will work in "crisis mode" but I'm not going to just be a mute listening W forever. A month or two before BD I semi-jokingly said that it seems like his ideal W would be someone who does all the cooking, cleaning, and chores, has dinner ready when he gets home every night, does all the errands, doesn't ask him any questions, doesn't say anything about herself, but will always listen to anything he says and ML whenever he wants (based on several things he said leading up to that). He responded "actually, yes, that sounds pretty good" and wasn't really joking. I will not be that for him. It's hard to continue to DB/be optimistic and have PMA when I don't see how we can be what each other wants us to be. Pretty negative, huh? : /
OK, I'm in need of help here..
Can someone, anyone, convince me why it's a good idea for H and I to continue to leave together and/or tips on how to do so without losing my mind? He has no inclination to leave, and still has not made any steps or conversations in any direction. Last conversation on the topic of R/M/D several weeks ago was that his decision to D was firm and nothing would change it. I'm having a VERY hard time trying to stay positive while still in the same house as him. I'm doing my best to GAL and that helps when I'm gone, but sometimes I just want to come home, kick my feet up, and watch TV. Or maybe make myself some dinner. Or other normal things that you just want to do in your home and feel comfortable! And he never goes anywhere besides soccer for an hour a week, so I can't get any "alone time" to just relax. I don't know how much more I can take of this without snapping and asking "what the heck are you doing?!" What makes this more stressful I guess is that it's not easy where I live to just move and find a decent apartment in a couple of weeks if things were to go majorly south. I live in a college town and most leases, at least for locations that allow me to take a bus downtown where I work, start in August, so the only things now are subleases. I've poked around online a little bit and haven't found anything that I'd consider living in. I even called the apartment we lived in before we bought our house to see if they had any availability and they said May at the earliest. I just feel so stuck and powerless. Someone said above that you can do 90% of your moving on while still married...but I don't know if that's true while you still leave together. Advice, anyone?! It's so hard to keep up the "act" of being positive when I'm so angry at him, and I don't know how to make myself more genuinely happy while here.
*continue to "live" together in that first line, not "leave" together! Guess it's obvious what's on my mind : )
Hi Kgirl,
Ok, so theres a few way you can go about how to handle this.
The first advice the vets would prob give you is to STAY in the home, cause in all honesty its the best way to let him see your changes.
The second is to move out, and start living your life.
Heres the twist. Either way you need to be detached enough to let them have their journey. You need to be able to let the punches roll off you and not let it affect your life either way. Detachment doesn't mean give up, its just means your going to let it play out without it messing with your head so much.
It is the most difficult thing to do, but one of the most important: detachment.
I'll be honest, your barely a warm cup of coffee into this still, and you have a LONG time to go before this is going to get resolved one way or the other. I know its frustrating and raw emotionally for you right now.
If your going to stand for your marriage, I would recommend staying. You just need to get there emotionally. If your giving up, which is your choice, but awfully early to be making it I guess. Then you should by all means move out.
The largest problem I see with Newcomers is the almost denial at first, they think that if A, B, and C are done you can get this turned around in a hurry. The reality of it is, its not uncommon for his to take a year or two. So you need to get that number into your head and TELL yourself, you can do this! Sure your going to slip here and there, but your going to try and save your marriage.
The best way to do this for now is GAL. And I mean get out of the house every opportunity you can. If he's going to be home, go to the library, its free, theres a ton of books you can read that will help you mentally and emotionally. If you have a laptop, find a coffee shop to go sit in that has free wifi, read and post here if you need to, watch a Netflix movie, go out with friends, take a walk, start exercising, but get out of the house. This does 2 things, gets you away from the walking on egg shells frustration at home, and that you willing to move on, act "as if" your can take care of yourself.
You don't do this to hurt him, so its not about being vindictive, its about getting to a point that you can separate the emotional damage your doing to yourself. See, he's not spinning you out, your spinning yourself out in reaction to him. See the difference. Only you can control your reactions.
I'll be honest that I prob need to catch up on your sitch more before I can really give much more in advice. But I can see your spinning in your last post. So I wanted to give a little advice, I'll try to catch up on your sitch when I get home from work.
And to add to above, its still very very very important you don't bring up R talk at ALL!!!!
And if he does, its important to listen and validate, over and over again. Also set up some boundaries for yourself.
Hi KGirl!
I'm having a VERY hard time trying to stay positive while still in the same house as him. I'm doing my best to GAL and that helps when I'm gone, but sometimes I just want to come home, kick my feet up, and watch TV. Or maybe make myself some dinner. Or other normal things that you just want to do in your home and feel comfortable! And he never goes anywhere besides soccer for an hour a week, so I can't get any "alone time" to just relax. I don't know how much more I can take of this without snapping and asking "what the heck are you doing?!"
Trust me, there will be days when you think you have already lost your mind. I am in the same situation as you, so you are not alone! I am still living with my H although he has in no clear terms stated he wants out, and is still seeing the OW. I just go by my day “as if” he was not there. Yes, he is physically in the house but if he is watching TV, I am reading. If I want to come home, kick my feet up, and watch TV. Or maybe make myself some dinner. Well, I will do so but just not when he is doing so…
Be patient and keep DBing..stop thinking about “what HE is doing?” and instead, think of it as, well if he’s not doing anything, then this gives ME time to figure out what I want to do..
Someone said above that you can do 90% of your moving on while still married...but I don't know if that's true while you still leave together. Advice, anyone?! It's so hard to keep up the "act" of being positive when I'm so angry at him, and I don't know how to make myself more genuinely happy while here.
It’s hard, I know, cause you’re still processing and hurting, but you need to DETACH, DETACH, DETACH...this is you’re new mantra...…At the beginning, it is all raw and emotional; you just want to run... but with every passing day, if you continue to DB, you’ll see it gets easier..
Good advice from Fly
but sometimes I just want to come home, kick my feet up, and watch TV. Or maybe make myself some dinner. Or other normal things that you just want to do in your home and feel comfortable!
Sounds like you feel you always have to be on your best behavior around him, and like maybe you feel like you're walking on eggshells, like any wrong move will push him away. But HE is already pushing YOU away through his words and actions. He's already checked out of the M. So if you want to kick your feet up and watch TV, then do it! Go ahead and make yourself dinner! What's he going to do, gripe? Well he does plenty of that already. And if he's in the house all the time, well then YOU find things to do outside the house. Get out and GAL. He's hellbent on ending the M, you don't answer to him anymore. Work on your life without him. Be strong, independent, confident! Ironically these things that help you get over him are the things that could bring him back down the road.
Oops, I didn't see TipAnna's post and repeated much of what she said. Good comments TipAnna!
Hey KGirl! How are you holding up?
Well, I haven't moved out yet, so I guess that's a good thing?
Feeling conflicted, I guess. I waver back and forth on a daily basis between trying to stay positive/DBing and thinking I shouldn't waste any more time on my H. I had dinner with two of my good friends a couple days ago who know about the situation and have known us almost the whole time we've been together, and they pointed out that this isn't the first time H has done this, so how can I trust time #3 will be the last if he does come around? And by "this", I mean break up with me/leave me because he wonders about dating someone else, either a real person (breakup #1 when we were 19 which lasted all of one week when the girl was appalled that he broke up w/ me for her and she had no interest in dating him) or hypothetical people (breakup #2 when we were 22 which lasted over a year, with much debate from H whether or not he wanted to be w/ me vs. "play the field"). I guess I thought that when you marry someone, you're done with all that nonsense, but apparently not.
I've also been thinking of what I've been trying to change about myself, but am running out of ideas.. which leads me to think about my responsibility in this vs. H's. At the beginning of this I thought it was mostly my fault because H said so. Reflecting on those past instances where he keeps "wandering", maybe this is more about him than me and I shouldn't blame myself for the majority of it. I don't know, who knows, since he doesn't say anything.
I did try and stand up for myself today and it didn't make me feel any better or make me feel like H would like a strong/confident person. He was trying to do the taxes (which I always did in the past but he wanted to try this year?) and was frustrated about the mortgage interest. I asked him what he put in so far and he yelled "Just leave me alone while I read it!". After a few min. he calls me in and asks for my help. So I come in and say "I'm only going to help you if you treat me politely". His response: "Well, your question before was really stupid, you can clearly see what I entered in the form so far." I don't even know how to go about setting boundaries because I don't know what the consequence would be. "H, if you continue to treat me like cr@p, I'm leaving?" That's probably what he wants and isn't what I should be doing anyway. I really can't afford for H to leave the house first, because I can't afford the mortgage payment on my own, and I'd have to deal with selling the house all on my own. I need to be the first to leave but I don't know how I'd know when/if is the right time. I've thought about it a little and decided that if he does ever comment on how I haven't moved out, my response would be "I'll leave once there's a written agreement showing I'm no longer responsible for the mortgage after X date and that I'm owed Y amount of the equity in the home whether you buy me out or we sell it, based on that date." I think that protects me, and if he actually gets to that point where such an agreement exists, we'd be on the path to D anyway.
*sigh*. I hate this. I want to know why he hasn't taken any steps towards D if he is so sure about it. Is he just lazy? Is he waiting for something to happen (for the tax return money to come in? to finish filling in the health insurance benefit stuff online where you can track your exercise/eating and get $150 back each year, since he can't do that once I take him off the insurance? he mentioned something about he should do that right away this year "while he can", gross)? Or is he now undecided and trying to figure out what he wants? I know I shouldn't be wondering, but it doesn't seem fair that he can just 1) "walk away" with no warning or discussion first about what went wrong, 2) not fill me in on what's happening.
[quote=KGirl] So I come in and say "I'm only going to help you if you treat me politely". His response: "Well, your question before was really stupid, you can clearly see what I entered in the form so far." I don't even know how to go about setting boundaries because I don't know what the consequence would be. [quote]
KGirl - You told your H the consequence in your statement. If he did not treat you politely, you would not help. If your H continues to be rude, simply walk away. Leave him to do the taxes on his own. You don't have to set forth an earth shattering consequence. There is actually the one boundary that I set that has worked pretty well. I used to engage my H and it would just escalate the situation. So when I started walking away (with a smile on my face and not stomping in anger), he noticed. Eventually, he started treating me better.
I know that you want answers to your questions. I would come on here and write them out to stop me from asking my H. Your H is not capable of answering them. He probably does not even know exactly what he is doing (at least if he is anything like my WAH). All you can do is focus on yourself. If you are worried about finances, you may want to reach out to a L just to see what may happen so you are prepared (I need to take my own advice on this one).
Moving out and getting a D is not going to end this pain. You will have to deal with it one way or another, so you might as well use this time to improve yourself.
Thanks so far, everyone. I was feeling really good about NOT asking H the questions above or pushing for answers. But then tonight I was chatting online with one of the couple of friends who knows what's happening. She asked the usual questions ("Did he call a lawyer? Have you called a lawyer? Has he moved out? What has he said he wants to do now?" etc.) When I said I didn't know because we hadn't discussed anything related to R/D/M in several weeks because I was following some guidance I had read about not bringing up those topics, she essentially said that I was playing games and that I needed to ask him what is going on so that I know where I stand. Am I playing games?? I do find myself wondering if all this DR/DB is just to make us feel better when we get dumped but not actually addressing the issue. How do I respond to something like this when friends think I'm ridiculous... or do I just stop talking to them? I'm scared to even talk about this "strategy" with my IC for fear he'll also think it's unhealthy/playing games.
Well, I just sent an e-mail to my H asking him about a few financial questions:
1) In the past our arrangement was that he would pay for the car insurance/gas (since we shared a car), and I'd pay for health insurance, since it comes out of my paycheck anyway. The amounts weren't quite equal but close enough. Now that I have my own car and am paying my own car insurance/gas, I don't think it's fair for me to shoulder all of the health insurance burden, and asked him how he'd want to address it for the time being (didn't make any reference to "while we're still married" or anything, just "for the time being"). I noted that the only thing I could think of was for him to pay me half the amount each month.
2) He got an iphone this fall and used all of the reward points we'd built up through our cell carrier for the past 2+ years to do so. When I got a new phone a year ago, it was a spur-of-the-moment decision without him there, so I didn't feel like I could use the points without consulting him and paid actual money for it. So my email also asked if we had a plan to address the discrepancy, since I couldn't remember if/what we had decided. The points were worth about $250, so not small change.
I e-mailed since lately if I try to ask him about anything logistically in person he just gives me a blank look and doesn't answer or says "I don't know." I think this was OK? I guess it could be "pursuing", but I do need answers to these questions, as they are significant amounts of money especially over multiple months for the insurance, and they are things we need to figure out no matter what happens. I didn't ask anything about our "status". It may have been a little more business-like than it would have had things been different but... I guess it is what it is. I do need to take care of myself financially.
I think this was OK? I guess it could be "pursuing",
That's not pursuing. Discussing children and/ or finances is OK, it doesn't really fall under Sandi's rules. Now if you turn it into an R discussion or try to ask him out for coffee or something, then it's pursuing.
The advice you will get from Divorce Busting is pro-marriage. Your friends want to see you happy, so they probably think divorce is the answer. I urge you to call a Divorce Busting Coach so you can stop having self doubts. You need to find solutions and answers that work for you. DB coaches will help you get your marriage back on track.
Please call to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004.
I did actually get an answer to my email about financial questions - a text during work today saying "about your email, I'll pay for my half of the insurance, and we can figure out what I owe you for the phone." So at least I'm getting answers about something.. but no hints about what anything "means" going forward.
I'm kind of freaking out. OK, kind of is an understatement, majorly freaking out. Tonight is the first night since BD that H is not home or where I expected him to be... he typically comes home from work around 5:30pm our time and it is now 8pm. Usually he has soccer on Thursday nights but all his stuff is here and his work bag is not, so he never came home from work. My mind is all over the place... has he finally moved his relationship with the OW at work from just workplace conversation to something more? Is it just dinner with friends? Maybe he has a work event? I guess what hurts more is he no longer feels the need to let me know if he's going to be home late or not. I understand why he has no obligation to if he does want a divorce...but him not letting me know that he'd be home late or going somewhere else at work was a big issue in the past, so he knows that it's a sore spot with me. I guess I feel like him not letting me know is giving me the message that he really is done and has no interest in trying to repair/rebuild things with me.
Any good tips on how to cope with this when your H is still living at home (and therefore it's too easy to stress out about where he might be when he's not home) besides GAL? This morning I told myself to keep this up until March 15, as that will be 3 months since BD, and I could evaluate them or ask him what's going on if there's no changes. Now tonight with him being gone I don't feel like I can stand it, and I would be so much less stressed if I just moved out and didn't have to know what he was doing or not doing.
H finally came home at 9pm and completely ignored me. Went straight to change out of his work clothes and then to the other room to watch TV. Zero small talk or hello's, much less mentioning what he was doing. And things seemed to be going so well/more friendly earlier in the week. I do feel it's a success that I didn't text him or ask him anything like "where are you? when are you coming home? where've you been?" etc. and kept my cool, at least from what he can see, since one of his complaints was that he never felt like he could just go do things with friends/after work and be trusted. Now I just need to figure out how to feel that internally as well! I totally get now what people say on here about their H being an alien... it truly is like he's been replaced with some other version of him that only looks like him, a version that I don't care to in an R with at all.
This is all very difficult, isn't it?
When your H doesn't show up when you expect (there's that word) remind yourself, that it's his life and he is free to live it as he wants.
Just as you are.
You said this,"but no hints about what anything "means" going forward." You don't need to wait for hints from him, build your own "going forward." I know it's not easy but it's doable and necessary.
Your H is going through his own emotional turmoil. I'm not apologizing fro him but he's trying to separate from you while still living in a house with you. Of course he's going to be standoffish, maybe even rude.
Hang in there, you can do this.
So my H accidentally left his email up on the computer. And of course, I had to look.
It was disgusting. He has threads with this other guy from work, that I knew was kind of gross, but it's really just beyond belief. Guy from work tells H things about how I'm "insane", a "nutbag", a "controlling manipulative freak", etc. He's telling H that he needs to get out and find what's right for him, but (thankfully) that "banging the sleazebag pregnant woman from work isn't the right answer, even if you are starting to see her outside of work". Definitely did not know he was hanging out with her outside of work. Most of this could just be talk that my H is not reciprocating (he only responded back specifically to any of these things with a "you're right, it's insane to keep talking to her.") But what really got me was something this guy said about sex. The guy said something gross like "in one 2 day period I QUADRUPLED (8) your lifetime total of schwanking (2)". Yes, this is a 50-some year old man that uses these words than talking to my H. But wait.. where did the second person come from? We started dating when we were 18, he was my first, the couple of times we broke up he said he did not sleep with anyone else, didn't even come close. So now I've been lied to about him being with another person at some point in the past 10 years..? Or maybe he's just lying to this guy because it's embarrassed his number is only 1?
Oh my god. I feel so sick right now. I know people might say things to others/types things they don't really mean in the moment especially if they think the other person isn't looking. I hate this guy H is talking to for filling his head with ridiculous ideas... like "don't waste your time and money reading books or going to counseling, if you don't like her you don't like her, get rid of her moldy @ss" (again, who talks like this??) He's really advising him to not read anything or do counseling? Because clearly this guy at 50-something, single, and regularly hiring hookers, totally knows what he's talking about.
I hope the second person isn't the woman from work, and that her pregnancy is in fact her from her husband and not my H. I really don't know what to do at this point. We had a good night last night talking, watching the olympics ceremony, etc. and now I feel like it's all just an act. I feel like I need to get out NOW.
Take some deep breaths and slow down.
You're fueled by emotion right now. Wait for that to settle and see how you feel
Trying. Trying. Told myself to wait until Monday and see how I feel before doing anything. My original goal of waiting until March 15, if there were no changes, to ask H what was happening just seems so far from now.
If you really think about it, the only thing that's changed is you know about this guy's conversations with your H.
Read around the board here, some unflattering things are said about WASs. It's part of the process. This guy doesn't know you, you don't know if anything he says is true. Work at not taking it personally. Stop the mindreading.
I know you don't really want an opportunity for growth right now, but this is one. You are in control of you. Get out and do something, write out exactly what you would like to say to H and then burn it. Make a list of goals (not R goals) you'd like to attain in the next 6 months, things like go on a trip, read a certain book, see an act/play you've always wanted to, you have no restraints right now. Look into Meet Up groups in your area. Get a pedicure or a massage.
Take care of you, let H worry about his braggart friend.
Would doing, saying anything now get you closer to your goal?
To add to the excitement of the day - I always go to the grocery store Saturday mornings, and the past several H has asked if he could come to to pick out groceries for himself. I said yes again today. When we get there he always asks "what should we do? pay separately or pay together?" to which I always say something like "well we have one cart and we end up sharing the food anyway, so it makes sense to pay with the joint account". So here we are, walking down the aisles with our cart, when H spots a guy and says "Hey, [work friend's first name]!" I've never met friend and no idea what he looks like, so not sure if it's the same guy, but I just keep walking down the aisle to look at stuff while they chit chat. Eventually H catches up with me...
Me: was that [first name] from work or a different guy?
H: yeah, that was him. I guess you've never met him, huh?
Me: Nope. Figured it was best I kept walking because he'd probably wonder why we were shopping together.
H: He did ask if I was alone and I said no, you were down the other aisle. I don't think he'd want to meet you either.
So I kept my cool and didn't bring in anything that I found out about today. It's kind of comforting to know that H's friend is completely out of it, since essentially he won't meet me or talk to me but apparently can give H an accurate assessment that I am a crazy, manipulative nutcase (among other things that he wrote). I can acknowledge that some of my behavior was controlling in the past, and yes I did flip out the first few days after BD, but wouldn't anyone in that situation? And I've made huge changes to how I interact with H and my attitude about things since then. I want to be mad at H's friend, but really this is about H and his inability to A) confide in people who won't make judgments and who will have his best interests at heart, who clearly are not the best role models for this type of thing, B) be so easily influenced by these "friends." This is not the first time that H has made a new friend who is a "player" and then H feels like he wants to get into that lifestyle, too. Looking back, the timing of his behavior and when this guy came into his life matches up exactly. A lot of these crappy emails were back in early January, not so much as of late besides random comments to H about whether he's checking out how certain "things" about OW are changing as her pregnancy moves along (gross, gross, gross).
I'm thinking about whether the only thing that's changed is that I know about the conversations. But now I "know" some things I did not before that I can't just un-know and make me lose more faith/trust in my H. I say "know" in quotes because it's possible they aren't true or are exaggerations...I'm going to think through this via typing:
1) That H has slept w/ someone else besides me despite always telling me I was the only one. He could have exaggerated to impress his friend. Maybe he's counting his girlfriend before me who he fooled around with but didn't actually sleep with (they would have been 16/17, keep in mind, so that wouldn't be an unusual thing). I guess I can't know what's true about this at this point.
2) That he's spending time with OW outside of work. Background: H and his boss work in an oversight role over the other people in his building. The building has several different offices, all of which are under the same franchise, and H/his boss have an oversight role over franchises in their district. So, any type of interaction beyond work/friends with others in the building would be inappropriate and against company policy. OW works in one of the other offices. In one of the friend's e-mails, he notes that H has really messed up because OW notified H's boss that H and OW are hanging out outside of work. This would be a pretty serious thing so it's hard to believe H's friend made it up, but it's possible H's friend was just trying to scare him. H's friend also claims to have been w/ 3 women at once while simultaneously eating a sandwich so... the source may be unreliable to say the least. If this notice was actually filed I would think H would have had to switch jobs, or some other type of serious consequence from his boss, and I can't imagine all that would be happening without it being obvious to me or him saying something. One of the e-mails noted that H was playing Words w/ Friends with the OW, so maybe that's all it's referring to (though I don't think serious enough to report to your workplace).
I know I need to take this opportunity to grow and not reflect on my M and H so much. But it's hard. It's like knowing you should go to the gym and not eat that donut and it would be best for you, but you just do it anyway.
Right now I feel stupid that I'm still "standing" for my M. I don't want to be in denial, I want to face the truth, but I don't know how to do that besides moving out and start splitting up finances, getting documentation to show my interest in the house, etc... essentially starting the path to D. I feel like me trying to DB and focus on me while ignoring the issue is denial. But then again.. if H really did have both feet out and was sure of his decision, wouldn't he have done something by now? Moved out, showed me some D paperwork, anything along those lines? I guess that gives me hope that he's still considering. I don't know if I should feel hopeful about that or not. His actions don't match what he's told me, that's for sure.
And no, you're right labug. Doing or saying anything will not get me closer to my goal. Asking him about what he's doing w/ OW outside of work, or who else he's slept with etc., is just going to show him that I'm snooping, that I don't trust him if none of those things are in fact true/happened and I'm misinterpreting something in the emails since I don't have the work conversation context, and essentially confirm H's friend's "assessment" that I am a crazy piece of work. I don't want H's friend to be right on that one : ) Even though it's really hard internally to be wondering all these things.
Thinking this evening about my support network, and it feels lonely to say it really only consists of one friend, my IC (who I haven't seen in 3 weeks... should probably get back into that), and this message board, along with all the books I've been reading. My mom and sister came to town today to go out to lunch and shopping, and my mom just says the craziest things. I basically had to tell her I just can't talk with you about this anymore. She goes from forgetting what I've told her before ("why didn't you invite H to lunch?" "Mom, he said he wants a divorce, I'm not inviting him to lunch" "he didn't really say that, did he?" "well, he said he doesn't want to be married to me anymore, so yes, he did.") to attempting to fix things for me ("why don't you ask him on a date? that would help. And make sure to get him a birthday present") to making jokes ("you didn't do his laundry for him before? well no wonder... just kidding"). His birthday is on March 5 and I can't think that far ahead right now, much less deal with her comments. So, crossing her off the list of people who will be supportive, as well as my "just confront him and get rid of him" friend.
Will work on my personal goals as well as things that are in my control that will help me be less fearful of the situation (like visit an L to know what my options are re: moving out and the mortgage, etc.) so that I don't have to be anxious about the unknown. H is fluctuating today between things like asking about my trip out w/ my mom and how it was, to saying things like "I have to catch up on [tv show] eventually but I probably won't be watching it with you since I have to get through [other tv show] first" completely nonchalantly, whatever that exactly is supposed to mean, but something about how I won't be around I guess. But I guess they all fall under the category of "friendly", which is what he wants to be anyways - just friends. *sigh*
One "mistake" today followed by one solid step forward, so I guess they balance each other out? : )
H made a big pot of chili for dinner. Since I've offered him food whenever I've been cooking it lately and he always gratefully accepts, I didn't really think twice about asking "is it OK if I have some of that?" to which he said "sure, if you want." Immediately after I grab a bowl, H is texting away, and the first thought in my mind is "great, now he's telling his friend, who will say something about how I'm being manipulative or taking advantage of him or trying to act like we're still married or some other thing because I asked about having a bowl of chili". Note to self - better to not ask H for any help, favors, etc. so there's no reason for me to be seen as manipulative/needy/desperate. And, who knows what he is writing about or texting. He could just as easily be texting his friend about a different topic, or "my wife really appreciates my cooking, so stop demeaning her"
While I can recognize when I'm mind reading, I still need to work on stopping myself from doing it before I get too worked up about it.
A little later, the news is on, and before they display someone's mugshot H makes a comment that " I bet they're [racial slur]... see, I knew it!" Then he says in his mocking Kgirl voice "oh, it's not very nice to say that, you're stereotyping and generalizing". This is my usual response when he says something innapropriate (I have a master's degree in social work, so these things get me riled up!), but I am about halfway through Codependent No More, and realized that my reaction to these types of comments was about me and not about teaching him anything. He knows my thoughts on the subject, he knows what is "polite" and what's not, and really my upset-ness about comments like this is my concern about how it reflects on me in front of others. The book drove it home that H's comments do not reflect on me, only on himself. So I said "you're welcome to say whatever you want." He seemed a bit surprised, but caught himself and said "you're right.. I am!". That is my solid step forward/success for the day : ) Hopefully enough to overcome feeling so weird about asking for a bowl of chili. Not sure why it feels weird (pursuing, maybe?) so I need to let it go and start anew.
I survived the weekend and did not move out after the e-mail/grocery store fiasco noted in the previous posts. I don't know how much is true and how much is bravado, and I'm trying to not take what H's friend said personally. When H came home today he said "[Friend] reminded me that he's met you before... when you brought in the extra cupcakes to work after our wedding." It took everything in my power to not respond with "oh, I can totally see how that lead him to believe I'm a crazy, manipulative woman."
I cannot and should not control H's choice of friends/advice-givers, no matter how obviously poor they are. If H admires his friend's life goal to hire a harem of women off the internet for his upcoming 60th birthday (who will hopefully give him a discount because he's in a neck brace right now and can't move very well! I can't help but laugh), I don't want to be a part of that anyway.
I was thinking today about why I hadn't been to see my IC in almost 4 weeks, and the first thought in my head was "well, there's no point in making any changes if H doesn't change his mind." Straight out of DR - need to get it out of my head that he has to make a change first before I do anything! So I scheduled an appointment later this week to talk about codependency in more detail. Everything in that book completely clicked for me. I may not be the adult child of alcoholics, but certainly am the child of a dysfunctional family, with addicts of other kinds.
H has been much more warm and small-talky lately.. which leads me to a question I could use advice on. Tomorrow I plan to go see a movie (it's $5 night at the theater here!), and H has mentioned several times when the previews come on that he also wants to see this same movie. I was thinking of saying something tomorrow like "I'm going to see X movie at 7:45.. you're welcome to come if you'd like" and walk away and see what happens. If I just went w/out saying anything I'd feel pretty cold because I know he wants to see it. But given what I know H and his friend talk about, I now worry about him asking his friend for advice, and friend saying something about how I'm manipulating him, crazy wife can't get it through her thick skull that you're through, get rid of her once and for all, etc. H thinks friend's advice is golden, so I don't want to backslide from whatever may or may not exist (he has to still be in this WAS/EA fog everyone speaks of to not make a move for divorce or move out or even talk about it). It's only been about 3 weeks since I tried to initiate something more relationship-like (see prev. post where I asked about ML and got shot down pretty bad - "nothing's changed, why would I want that?"). As I type it out I may just be temperature checking by asking him... but how literal do I take this rule?
"Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go." Do I risk inviting him, even if it's as nonchalant as "you can come with if you'd like" ?
Oh, man! Do I understand how "friends" can be toxic in these situations! My H is living with a guy who makes ridiculous, horrible decisions in every part of his life (H is always appalled at his friends decisions), but yet he is the current advice-giver in our sitch. That's great! Lol
So, I feel your pain on that! I would not invite him- invite a friend. Not to be mean or anything, but I see it as a GAL opportunity. You don't even need to tell him you're going, really.
If he wanted to work on things or was being nicer, I would invite him. Just my .02
Or invite him on your way out the door. Just as long as you still go!!!
I'm by no means an expert! Lol but that's how I would handle it.
Only ask him to go if you can have no expectations about his decision. Can you do that?
What is your motive for asking him? Really think about that.
I don't really expect him to say yes...so I wouldn't be disappointed. It would give me some time away after work in the evening to just go by myself! My motive...I think there are a few. It feels kinda spiteful to just go without saying anything because I know he wants to see it, and I don't think there are many people that would go see this one with him. But also part of me is curious about his response. That particular motive makes me think I should leave it be.
Expectations.
You're S, right? Why would you feel spiteful in not asking him along?
bug - I don't know how to answer if we're S or not. I'm not sure if that's because I don't want to admit it, or if it is actually confusing. I don't feel like I understand what our status is. The facts are:
Dec. 15 - H tells me he doesn't want to be married anymore (doesn't say the D word), knows he'd be happier with someone else, etc. Over the next few weeks makes comments about how he thinks he can afford the house and wants to buy me out, that we'd have to split up the cell phone plan, a few other logistical things. I do the whole "I don't agree with this but accept it's your decision" thing and say he'll have to call a lawyer to figure it out, but that I think we can do a "do it yourself" or mediation w/ neutral lawyer since there's really nothing we need help settling.
January 2 - H admits to something w/ coworker (EA I guess?), says he feels closer to me after telling me the truth, but "it doesn't change anything"
January 13 - H tells me he'll call a lawyer "sometime this week" because he was "too busy" the previous week. I say OK, just let me know because I want us to be able to do this cooperatively if this is the route we are taking.
January 22 - I approach H about physical contact and am rejected with a "I don't think that's a good idea - nothing has changed"
Since then, zero references or mentions of D, the future, logistics, splitting finances, moving, etc. Occasionally he'll say things like "If you're going to X store, would you be able to get me this thing? I mean, I understand you don't have to, but..." that imply things are in fact different. But he still sits down to watch TV with me, eat dinner at the table (but not in his usual chair), goes to the grocery store with me, etc.
So, if H saying he doesn't want to be married means we're S, then I guess we are, despite living in the same house, watching TV together, etc.? I don't know, it's all very confusing and I guess is why it's hard for me know what's what because the signals seem very mixed.
As for why feeling spiteful... I don't want to get into a tit-for-tat "well he was out until X time last week and didn't say anything, now I'm gonna go do Y and not say anything, let's see how he likes it!", although it's kind of silly to think that because who knows if he gives two cents what I'm doing right now. And I want to see this movie anyway, so I know inside I'm not being spiteful. But I could see how it could come across as that. The "be mysterious" part of GAL feels like playing games and I want to be sincere in my actions and not play games/try to get a reaction out of someone.
Bottom line - I'm caring too much about what he thinks, again. I'm scared to do anything that will make him resent me, but at this point that could really be anything, so it's impossible to live my life around that.
See how you worked your way right through that?
Print this and put it in a place you see everyday:
Bottom line - I'm caring too much about what he thinks, again. I'm scared to do anything that will make him resent me, but at this point that could really be anything, so it's impossible to live my life around that.
Noted
Movie was great! After, though, came home and tried to log on to my tablet (it's set to require a numerical PIN) and got a message saying I had tried to log in 5 times unsuccessfully and would now have to wait one minute. ??? It's so bizarre that I wonder if I hallucinated it. What does it mean when the WAS snoops? I guess I'll mark it as "interesting"... but there is a part in DR after the LRT that talks about progress if your S starts to show curiosity or interest in what your doing. Not sure if trying to see what I'm doing on my tablet qualifies. For about an hour before I went to the movie I was using it to read "Codependent No More" and taking notes on paper - H could clearly see I was doing something more than just surfing because he chose that time to wash dishes, and the sink has a clear line of vision to where I was sitting. *sigh*... so strange.
I guess I'll mark it as "interesting" Yes!
Just observe. I wouldn't mention the tablet issue to him.
But do keep reading CDNM!
I was reading OneDay's thread about "taking back" the bed... and think I may have screwed up here. But I feel like it's too late to do anything about it. So when this all first went down two months ago I immediately started moving clothes and everyday stuff to the guest bedroom, because I was so hurt/angry/upset with my H and didn't want to have to interact with him in the morning when getting ready. I tried to reclaim the master bed about a month ago, but it went horribly. I asked my H about rotating, he did it for one night and complained that all of my clothes were still in the other room and we woke up at different times so I was disturbing him, how would we rotate and move ALL of the clothes back and forth, I left the room a mess when I left it (well, I don't have a hamper or dresser so what would you expect?) etc. He blew up. I decided it wasn't a battle I wanted to fight when things were calm prior to, so I said "Let's just go back to how it was, it's really not worth fighting about." But, I DID say that I was going to shower in the master shower from now on, so I did "reclaim" that part. Am I being too unassertive? I kinda feel like it's too late to do anything about the bed/bedroom when it's been going on for so long. And bringing it up just opens the door for questions/conversations about why we're both still here, what's going on, etc. Not sure that I want to go down that road unless H does it first. Maybe just pay attention moving forward and make sure I'm not conceding any more space in my home? H comes home and monopolizes the "good" tv from when he gets home until he goes to sleep, so I'll try to figure out how I can negotiate that instead of just conceding.
Wahh. What is going on?
So H and I were both in the same room watching our team's basketball game, and we make some small talk over an article we saw online about being born in 1986-1989 and reminiscing (I know, I know, we are babies!). After he reads that, he starts telling me about this morning's guest on the radio show he listens to. It was a guy who wrote some book about "how to get a guy" (not sure of the exact title), but H said it was really "interesting" and that he wanted to read it because it might be insightful. He goes on to tell me the following things:
-according to the show's guest,there are 3 types of women: the super girly/clingy ones (who men do not like), the very strong independent ones (that men also don't like), and the "ones in the middle." Through all this I'm just listening and validating, but he pauses here and is having trouble describing what the middle is. I say "They make guys feel needed but aren't needy?" and he said "YES! Exactly. Guys want to feel needed and important". He gave some example from the show about offering to carry someone's luggage and the woman said "no", and it hurt the guy's feelings to not feel needed.
-He then talked about how guys don't like nagging and said that the show said women should say something instead like "it really turns me on when you do the dishes". He repeated the not nagging twice, and in kind of a joking way... not an angry way. This was an issue for him and something I COMPLETELY stopped since BD. Even when he promises to do something and then doesn't..I just let it go/ignore it unless it's really important (and if it is, I just gently say "about that thing, did you get around to doing that yet? wasn't sure if you had time yet")
None of these things are surprises to me as I've been doing a TON of reading, and one of the books I read talks quite a bit about making your partner feel needed but not being "needy". Again, trying not to read into this or anything it means, but this is the first time since BD that he's voiced anything positive about relationships or things one could do to make them better. It SEEMS positive that he's been pondering these types of things.. and then actually vocalizing them. And I don't see how any of this could help him with his EA at work (if it was "how to get a woman" then I could see it!). Hmm....again, mark it as interesting! And some things I could work on? I think being as obvious as "it really turns me on when you shovel the snow" would be pursuit : ) but is it safe to say I've been given some hints?
Sure. It's interesting that he's sharing with you.
Continue to appreciate things he does but I don't think you're in the "it turns me on when you..." zone.
Just when I'm starting to think things are turning around and being more positive...
I made plans with friends tonight since I didn't want to be alone/just stuck home with H. I came home around 10pm, and during that time H made a document that he saved right on the computer (not even snooping, it's just there in the "documents" folder that we keep everything in) called "possessions". It's a list of our possessions and who he thinks should get what. It's quite one-sided towards him. This s*cks. I kept telling myself he was still deciding what he wants to do and that's why he hasn't said anything in weeks, but I don't think you start a list like this in plain sight unless you're sure of your decision. He seems to do stuff like this when I go out w/out him for long periods of time.. last time I was gone for awhile is when he started making his "budget" to see if he could afford the house. I can only hope he does these things when he's feeling angry that I'm out GALing and won't follow through on them. What a cr*ppy day : (
When/if he brings up this above list and further details about D, what are some ways to respond? What I WANT to say is something like "I really do have hope that we could work through this and have an even better marriage than before, so this is not what I want. I understand my part in this and have been working on myself to be less controlling, less clingy, and more independent. But I also understand that it takes two people to do that, so if you haveno interest in that, I will have to accept that"...and then review what he is proposing and take my stance. Is that saying too much? I guess I feel like if he moves forward with D, that I need to share more of my feelings/show that I do still care about our M (since I haven't said anything in weeks about that) as a last ditch effort. I kind of worry that DBing is pushing him farther away because it comes across as not caring about him. He's much warmer to me when we're in the same room, watching TV together, doing small talk, etc. like last night, but then when I go and do something like tonight it pushes him towards D again. What to do??
Ugh. The possessions list above has really thrown me. I feel like I did when this all first happened - can't eat, can't sleep, struggling not to cry in front of H, feeling queasy and anxious because I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Suggestions?
When/if he brings up this above list and further details about D, what are some ways to respond? What I WANT to say is something like "I really do have hope that we could work through this and have an even better marriage than before, so this is not what I want. I understand my part in this and have been working on myself to be less controlling, less clingy, and more independent. But I also understand that it takes two people to do that, so if you haveno interest in that, I will have to accept that"
have you thought more about this? Puts pressure an blame on him, usually doesn't work in any setting.
I guess I feel like if he moves forward with D, that I need to share more of my feelings/show that I do still care about our M (since I haven't said anything in weeks about that) as a last ditch effort.
If he wants a D why woul you caring about your M change his mind? I know that's painful but it's where he is right now.
I kind of worry that DBing is pushing him farther away because it comes across as not caring about him. He's much warmer to me when we're in the same room, watching TV together, doing small talk, etc. like last night, but then when I go and do something like tonight it pushes him towards D again. What to do??
Many people think DB pushes the S away. You have no way of knowing what his feelings are ("much warmer") unless he tells you.
The list means nothing until he makes it mean something. Nothing has changed except you have another piece of information.
I hope you have something fun or interesting planned for today.
((( )))
That's taking 2 data points and coming up with a conclusion.
I'm not sure, I guess, how to make sure my thoughts are clear while not putting on pressure or blame. Part of me worries that through not pursuing I'm coming across as "cold"/unfriendly and will lead him to think that I no longer have an interest in the relationship so he for sure needs to get out. Part of me thinks if he KNEW that I wasn't, maybe he'd rethink his position. But I think I made my position on still wanting to be M pretty clear two months ago, and yes, he could always ask me or tell me that. The only thing he has actually told me is that he likes when we are talking, as opposed to ignoring each other.
"That's taking 2 data points and coming up with a conclusion." - I'm not sure what that is referring to? But would like to
Sorry for the confusion
I edited and then didn't preview.
I meant that this: He's much warmer to me when we're in the same room, watching TV together, doing small talk, etc. like last night, but then when I go and do something like tonight it pushes him towards D again. What to do??
Is taking 2 data points and making a conclusion. Actually it's 4 data points, either way, not enough data.
Do what's best for you. It's difficult to be put off by someone who is happy and enjoying life.
Thanks, labug. It makes sense. Are you a social scientist IRL?
. Taking time to think always helps, so I just need to get "through the moment" so to speak. I've certainly done things in the past two months that would look like I'm planning for a D (looking at apartments, reading articles about being under 30 and divorced, etc.) when in fact that's not what I want, so it could be just as well that H's list of "possessions" is sorting through what's going on in his head and having some kind of control over it. But you're right, it shouldn't mean anything unless he actually brings it up... it's a tough thing.
Enough about him, here are the things I'll continue to work on!
-work on being less controlling. I've got books on the subject to continue reading, have identified where I struggle, now it's matter of putting the plan into action. I didn't realize how much this affects my life even outside of my M. At work, for example, I used to work in a unit where 6-7 other people did the same thing I did, and I would get so frustrated with how they did things (that they weren't up to my "standards") that I took a new job in August where I didn't like the content as much, but I could work completely independently. At least this was a healthier way of dealing with my environment, rather than gossip/complain behind people's backs (which is what I'd been doing for a year or so before I left - I even got in trouble for it). I'd also do the whole "helping-persecuting-victim" cycle mentioned in CDNM with my students. They'd come ask me about something, we'd talk about it, and then they'd go do the opposite because "they'd just work harder and it'd be fine". I'd get so resentful - why were they bothering coming to me for help if they weren't going to listen? And then when they'd come back later and acknowledge it didn't work out, I'd still be resentful in my head. I'm sure it came out in my demeanor. My IC and I have talked about accepting that people will do things you don't want, and when it fails, it's not your fault, and to not be resentful. Same with H. I can't control this journey he's on, best I can do is work on myself, be the spouse only a fool would leave that everyone talks about it, and maybe it will change things but maybe it will not.
-work on less worrying! I worry, worry, worry all the time. Preparing is OK, worrying is not. And I think I've done all that I can do to prepare for a D given the current situation. I know what things I would want and what I would find fair in terms of personal items, I know how I would want to handle the house situation, and I've identified several apartment buildings that I'd be OK with living in providing there are openings at that time. I don't think there's much else I can or need to do at this point.
-work on dependency. My SIL's husband is in the military, and I distinctly remember saying something to my H not too long ago about how I would never have been able to be w/ someone who had to get deployed because I wouldn't be able to handle the separation. Clearly plenty of people can do this in a healthy way... so I've got some stuff to figure out there. Namely how to be OK on my own and not rely on someone else to "complete" me, but rather "complement" me!
-Working out and eating well. I wouldn't consider myself overweight (5' 2'', 140 lbs.) but safe to say I've let myself go in the past several years.
-con't to do things on my own or with friends to be happy and fulfilled w/out H participating. I've joined a friend's book group, I'm doing a two night class next week on floral design ('cause why not?), and I have a short list of projects/places I want to go that I can refer to when I'm feeling lonely or bored (like, finish a scarf I never finished, or go to a nearby museum for a short-term exhibit they're having).
When I first joined this board, there were male posters who had the acronym BITS in their sig line. I finally discovered this meant (I think) Brothers In The Sh!t.
You and I, my dear, are SITS!
Everything you listed about yourself was also on my list. The most cringe-worthy for me now was my workplace perfectionism and my inability to just let others be. I too changed jobs because of it. It's good that you're realizing and working on this at the age of 28. You make even thank your H someday.
Changing those behaviors will certainly help you when/if you decide to have children.
CDNM was helpful for me and also the Lynne Forrest's writing on the drama triangle. I'm visual and the upside down triangle help me keep that in my head.
Probably the singular work that was most helpful, other than DR, When Things Fall Apart.
Another thing that was helpful for me, learning more about introverts. Not saying you're an introvert but anything that creates a better understanding of YOU, is helpful. I accepted me, as I was and I quit trying to be someone I wasn't.
I'm not a social scientist but I could have been.
I have to track some data and trend certain things and in my work. I listened to Ira Flatow (Science Friday, NPR) last week and the topic was Big Data, loved it!
Thanks, labug
Identifying issues is one thing, putting them into action is another. That will be the hard part for me - I like step-by-step instructions and that doesn't quite work here! I also need to keep in mind that there are some things I just can't be and to accept that - I will never become an extrovert, for example. My MBTI is ISTJ (there's that I for introvert) and the J part of me that values punctuality, time and deadlines are important, etc., is not going to go away. My H is a "P" - time is relative, deadlines are relative, etc., and that was an issue we never really talked about, but should have - how to make that work without feeling like we needed to fundamentally change who we are.
Something else I've been pondering - in the infidelity section of DR it mentions something about identifying what the OP has or what attracts your S to the OP. This weekend I finally learned the name of the OP and looked her up on facebook. These are the things H told me he likes about her:
-they have similar interests. When asked what those were, he said "she really likes to read.. like you!"
That's interesting because H doesn't like to read. She also complains to my H about how often her H plays video games. My H plays video games a lot, so I'm not sure how he thinks she'd like him more than her own H? I don't buy the interests thing. They way he described it, they each see their current S's in each other...??
-she's attractive. I don't know that she's more attractive than me, but not much I can do about that anyways. Maybe this is about a confidence/independence attractive than a physical attractive, and that's already on my "to-do" list!
-she listens to him when he talks about me and our M. Can't do much about that - I can certainly listen and validate his concerns/complaints but I understand it's not really the same talking to me as it would be to a third party where he doesn't have to worry about hurting someone/me trying to "fix" it right away.
Now that I know who she is, it is SO tempting to message her and say something like "so did you know my H wants to divorce me because he's so infatuated with you? if you have no inclination or interest in my H that way, you should probably stop leading him on." But I know that's not the answer.
When it comes down to it, I think my friend had a good perspective on this. She said my H may not want this particular person - but he has a fantasy about someone shiny and new and different, and she happens to be shiny and new and in close proximity to him every day. "She's not the answer to anything," as my friend says. I don't think there's anything I should work on to be more like her, because who she "is" is not what H has said he wants. But, working on the things I've identified could lead me to be a new and interesting person!
Trying to stay positive despite my H's list of things that he wants to keep, including the house and the cat. It's like his life will barely be affected - I just disappear and take a couple pieces of furniture.
Oh, I forgot the last thing that H likes about OW - she plays Words with Friends with him. Of all the things. For those who don't know it's a smartphone game/app that's basically like scrabble. H and I used to play a lot but I quit playing 5-6 months ago because he always won by laying down random letters that happened to end up being words, and I got sick of never winning. There's probably something deeper behind this than just the game, not sure what it is yet (something about not letting my husband "win" or be good at something?). But, I figured why not, and sent him a request to start a game yesterday. He asked me about it and I said I was interested in playing again and I knew he checked it a lot, so I thought I'd send him a request first, but he didn't have to accept it. He accepted it and we've been playing. Good opportunity for me to show that I don't have to be a sore loser and to commend him when he whoops my @$$? : )
KGirl, ignore the fact there is an OW. She's not the reason your M is where it is. As you said, she is a symptom.
One of my male friends likened it to this: we all walk a bridge in life from one point to the next. The M bridge started to crumble, and OW was in a lifeboat waiting to give him some support if he fell. Eventually he'll want back on some solid footing. So we gotta rebuild some bridges to make them stronger so nobody needs that lifeboat.
Even if you and H end up on different bridges, make yours strong enough to last.
My IC and DB coach also said to disregard OW-she is not the problem and giving her time and energy is taking it from an area that deserves it.
artsy, you speak wise words. It's easier to focus on the OW/blame them instead of our H's or ourselves. Even though in this case I am highly doubtful the OW has anything to do with this (when I went through my snoop phase last weekend it was evident this is in H's head and not her approaching him). Bah. All the junk happening lately (finding the awful friend e-mails, finding the "possessions" division list, figuring out the OW's name) has left me in a cr*ppy mood. Today I'm feeling about 90% sure that we'll get a D no matter what I do or change just because my husband is so stubborn once he says he'll do something. I don't think I mentioned this earlier, but he stayed in a job he hated for 4 years because he had "committed" to it. It wasn't until someone literally walked down the hallway and said "it sounds like your bosses aren't treating you well... would you like to come work with me?" that he left. No effort needed on his part. But it's also the only thing going for me in that in takes H a loong time and an extreme situation for H to act, so if left to his own devices I can't imagine the actual D starting for months.
Something I've been worrying about too much the past few days is the living situation. I see over and over on here how you're basically scr*wing your chances of R if the LBS moves out. But since my H plans to refinance and buy me out of the house, I really have no choice but to move. I'm not fighting for the house, I don't want the mortgage. I can rent a 2 bed apartment in a decent area here for essentially what I was paying for my half the mortgage so it's not worth it to pay double for a 3 bed house that's way too big for me, and we only bought it a year ago so it's not much of an investment right now.
So my question to you all is: how can you move out in a DBing way? My thought so far is to first wait until it actually comes up in conversation or I'm asked about it. Second, make it clear what my stipulations are for moving out (whatever legal-type paperwork or things need to happen to ensure that 1) my name is off the mortgage, and 2) that it is documented how much equity I am owed based on what I've paid in myself). Only after those things are squared away will I move out - so legal protections without actually starting a D or legal S. Any other ideas or approaches aside from legal 'cause I know this isn't the place for legal advice? It s*cks because H will have a pretty easy life (well aside from the mortgage payment.. but then again he doesn't spend money on anything for himself or for fun so he prob. won't care) and I will have to be inconvenienced with moving, packing, changing addresses, etc. But I don't see any other option.
. I see over and over on here how you're basically scr*wing your chances of R if the LBS moves out.
Ok, you know I like data and I doubt that there's any really good data about this because there are so many variables.
When my H dropped the bomb, 'I said OK, you move' and even tho I did it from a place of pain and anger, I'm glad it happened that way. I postulate that I wouldn't have grown as I did if we had been together. Just my story but there are no absolutes. The bell curve is a bell for a reason.
Get out, get your own place, make it yours, create a new life.
Today I'm feeling about 90% sure that we'll get a D no matter what I do or change just because my husband is so stubborn once he says he'll do something. I don't think I mentioned this earlier, but he stayed in a job he hated for 4 years because he had "committed" to it. It wasn't until someone literally walked down the hallway and said "it sounds like your bosses aren't treating you well... would you like to come work with me?" that he left. No effort needed on his part. But it's also the only thing going for me in that in takes H a loong time and an extreme situation for H to act, so if left to his own devices I can't imagine the actual D starting for months.
I said and believed something very similar. Anything is possible. What we do know for certain is, if you create a good life for yourself you can be happy and your H might look toward you.
What have you got to lose?
I feel better that I didn't get a flood of "Don't do it! You'll make a terrible mistake!" posts
At some point it just is what it is. And we could certainly still get back together if I move out, just will take more outreach on his part.
Journaling a little bit about "baby steps" that I will celebrate internally just to be hopeful, but trying to keep expectations out of it:
-H is more curious about where I've been and what I'm doing. I helped a friend move this week and he asked how long it took, what her apt. was like, etc. That was actually really tough because friend had to move after getting a D and needing to sell her house. Friend's H cheated on her, racked up 5 digit debt on credit cards buying gifts and plane tickets for his OW (she lives in France), promised to change and go to counseling but continued to contact OW when things got bad (so, opposite of my H - my H SAYS he wants out but isn't acting, her H said he wanted in but wouldn't act!) Friend eventually said enough is enough, but it was so painful to watch her move all of her stuff into this tiny apartment. It was like the ghost of Jacob Marley coming to show me the ghost of post-D future. Ugh. Unlike Scrooge I can't go give a turkey to someone to make it go away.
-H has started telling me when he's going somewhere (and even sometimes where!) and for approximately how long.
-H will now let me know if there's a show on TV he's watching that I might like to watch or remind me to come watch shows we used to watch together
-H will show me funny pictures/FB posts that he thinks I would like, going out of his way to find me in the house to show me
-H will now initiate small talk (one of my very first goals I made after reading DR!)
-H brought up the radio show I mentioned earlier about relationships and I did NOT respond with any form of "Can't you see I'm doing all those things?!"
-H has not brought up D or S-related talk in a month (also one of my first goals I made)
It's a balmy 30-some degrees here and the snow is melting... something about that triggered a memory of something H said a few days after BD. He said "if we were to get back together, you'd always bring up how I ruined Christmas and your birthday and I don't want to deal with that forever". So the "if we were" makes me a little hopeful.. but that second piece really has me thinking. This is how our interactions generally go:
*H does something that I tell him makes me sad, angry, feel neglected, etc.*
H: "I'm sorry you feel that way but.." or "I'm sorry, I won't do it again."
Me: "OK" *but in my head thinking - you aren't REALLY sorry. If you were really sorry you'd make it up to me, or do something big to make me happy*
A few months later...
H: "I'm going to go do X thing" (and during X thing was when negative event happened in the past)
Me: "OK.. but you need to make sure that you don't do what you did last time you did X thing/don't repeat that past mistake/etc."
H: "I know, OK? I'm not going to. Can't you just be happy for me that I got invited to do X thing?"
a few years later...
H: "I'm going to go do X thing again"
Me: "OK, you remember the rules about that, right?" *cause in my head I'm thinking he's still never been sorry about that thing and never made it up to me*
H: "That was 3 years ago! I can't believe you still can't let that go"
I really need to figure this out. Because often I do truly feel H isn't sorry when he does the "I'm sorry but". For example, "I'm sorry that you were angry I went to the strip club for my bachelor party. But I think it's a normal thing for guys to do". So he doesn't actually regret his actions. And then every time he is in a situation that could involve strip clubs (other bachelor parties, going to Las Vegas, etc.) I just dwell on that. Even though part of me knows he's not going to do that again because he knows how upset I was...and maybe I AM being too uptight about that boundary (controlling again!).. I get caught up on the " but he doesn't genuinely regret it for himself so he'll just do it anyway and try not to let me find out!". Then these things become self-fulfilling prophecies. Ugh. So bottom line - yes, he did ruin Christmas and my birthday by dropping the bomb the week before. But there are many more Christmases and birthdays to be had if we do get back together. And I can't expect something extravagant to make up for it.. I need to look for what HIS demonstrations of apology/sorry are. I don't know if there's a way I can show that I can let these things go right now, aside from not bringing them up.
Getting things together. Have an appointment w/ an L tomorrow morning to try and ease my concerns about the consequences of moving out and how I could protect my equity in the home/the fact that my name is still on the mortgage w/out actual D or S paperwork. I don't think I'm ready to do it yet, but want to be prepared just in case. Moving out w/out actually filing for D or S could be the kick in the pants H needs to see what it's like when I'm not around.
H is staying home today sick. I can count on less than one hand the # of times this has happened. I just want to cuddle him and comfort him and wait on him like I'd use to do (which he probably found smothering) but limited myself to "Hope you have a restful day. Let me know if I can help at all" and walking out the door. Pre-BD we'd talk a lot in the bathroom while getting ready in the morning, post-BD we are in separate bathrooms so no talking. H came out of the bedroom despite being sick to chit chat with me in the kitchen this morning about having the flu, maybe taking off work tomorrow, asking if I got a flu shot, etc. Ugh. I actually feel the opposite of a lot of people on here - rather than be stressed about going home, I look forward to coming home and being near my H. Probably helps that he's nice and doesn't spew awful things at me. I'm not sure if this is a comfort thing (like enjoying his presence even if we're not talking) or if it's a control thing (like feeling secure that I know exactly what he's doing when we're both home and isn't off with someone or plotting against me) : /
More interesting things from H yesterday....
-received texts during the day about the women's Olympic hockey game and the score (which I had not mentioned any interest in). Haven't gotten any texts from H since BD that weren't purely logistical until now.
-Earlier in the week I posted on FB about how excited I was for floral design class on Thursday. Hadn't mentioned it to H, when I came home yesterday H asked about it and when it was. When I came home H asked to see the arrangement I made.
-H asked me to help him find something he lost and made cute comments (that he knows were cute!) about the thing hiding and how he made it disappear
-H came into "my" bathroom this morning to comment on the weather and that it hadn't snowed yet
But... then he didn't come home yet from work this evening and no word from him. Who knows. It's hard for me to accept he actually may go through with this because I don't know how someone could be so nice/friendly and still be planning to D in some other part of his brain.
The L meeting today was depressing. Legal advice was fine (essentially rec'd that if I were to move out, best to file for S/D so that mortgage obligations, equity owed,etc. were all spelled out and documented and I wouldn't be held liable). But the L felt the need to add some life advice that wasn't exactly appreciated:
-"If this is happening so soon in your marriage, it doesn't seem like there's a foundation for a long term relationship anyway" (n/m the fact we dated for 10 years I guess...)
-"So he's infatuated with someone else... there are going to keep being people that pop up in his life, who's to say he won't keep chasing them?"
-"It takes two people to work on a marriage. If he's refused to do counseling or anything else, nothing will change, so best to move on and take action"
UGH. Hard to get those thoughts out of my head. I liked the guy's legal approach, but don't know if I can work with him given his other comments. He did say he's pro-marriage but seemed to want to play a kindly father role or something.
Eeek. H was talking to his mom on the phone just now and asked me what I was doing this weekend, because MIL was thinking of visiting. I must have looked confused because he then said "in case your parents were coming or something..." like they shouldn't all be here at the same time. I said they weren't coming, and I guess it was decided she'll come Sunday. Do I:
A) Just be here and act normal? That'd be weird. H told her about his "decision." She's messaged me to tell me she's thinking about me, so I don't think she's "against me", but would be weird to all be here together like nothing has happened.
B) Plan to be gone during that time?
C) Ask H what he thinks?
D) some other option I haven't thought of?
What would feel best for you?
I would feel a little bad avoiding her because it sounds like she still cares about me, but really I'm avoiding the "let's act like we're a family and nothing has happened" piece and not her specifically. I can't control how she interprets that. If she was just coming and H wasn't here I'd have no problem with it. It would be easiest and least stressful if I just wasn't there and didn't have to deal with it. Is there any downside to taking the easy way out and hiding somewhere else that day? : )
In my opinion, I would get out! This way you are not putting yourself in a situation YOU don't want to be in. Either way, let him explain why you are not there. His family, his mess, why act like you are together if he has made no effort at reconciliation? Just my 0.02$.
Stay and say Hi and then have somewhere else to go.
Or just not be there.
Stay and say Hi and then have somewhere else to go.
Or just not be there.
If you do go, can you text her that you are "sorry to miss her but" and then say something like "under the circumstances" you feel as if being there while he is there with her, would feel stressful, OR would "Cut into their time", etc.
But make sure she knows she is still part of YOUR life too. I say that as a mother too. Not just as a DIL. But as a DIL, I can tell you that your MIL saying anything, is better than some.
When my h went off to his frozen frontier, (after 25 years of m and 3 kids) he was gone for the better part of 2 years.
IN that time, my mil called our children and I exactly ---zero times...
which hurt. (At her funeral, our oldest d spoke. She said even though she did not know her grandmother well, that did not mean her grandmother did not love her..."
My h & bil were stunned by this. They both asked me "what? How could she not KNOW how loved she was by our mother?"
Wow...they simply did not realize that ignoring your only grandchildren for years, DOES affect their r's.
Speaking as a mom or potential MIL, I have 2 adult children (one HS at home) and my son and adult daughter have both broken up with people they had brought into our lives. H and I both were fond of their special friends.
My d1 asked h and I not to have ANY contact with her x...wth?
This was recent. We both balked, and she was furious about our "disloyalty" etc. So we backed off to check ourselves (for NOW)... but we both feel that the others our children bring into our lives, can sometimes become people we come to love. We cannot turn it off. Over time, we won't.
In a month or so, I will reach out to the ex just to let them know that we do still care & think of them often, wish them well, etc.
BUT they are NOT married. If they were, I'd probably do or say more and I"d at least suggest GOOD mc (as opposed to general MC, which often consists or rehashing old grievances). However, my mil said nothing. Not b/c she didn't care but b/c she was a weak woman. Conflict avoidant to the max. Not my fault, not h's. Just how she was.
Finally, you need to know this is NOT easy for us as the family of a WAH.
My oldest brother divorced his wonderful wife, for reasons that remain unknown to me (11 years later). I think he knew that he was not a great h for her and wanted someone lower maintenance. Mind you, his first w was NOT "high maintenance", she was just normal. Like she'd want help...raising their child...
So he brought new women to the family gatherings and we were always mortified. We were polite to the OWs but not warm. But we also accepted that our brother, fool that he was, WAS in fact divorcing his wonderful wife. Beyond our control. Believe me, we tried!
I can tell you this: My former sil is still close to me and some of my siblings (i've spent more time with her than with my brother, come to think of it).
We told our brother he was a fool and "making the biggest mistake of his life" etc. To no avail. So, Is he happier now? Who knows?
All I am sure of, is that my former sil truly IS happier now, than she ever would have been with my brother. She found someone much better suited for her. That guy helped her raise my niece a lot more than my brother would have. Sad to say, but true.
Hope this helps somehow. BTW, it might help to know, What is your h's relationships like with his mom?
Whatever you do, make sure you enjoy the activity you choose. Go ahead and be a bit mysterious about it too...and LOOK YOUR BEST.
I'm a scent person and I found buying new perfumes I loved b
ut had never worn before, was really helpful. No memories resurfaced, but I'd smell great and I felt a little more beautiful wearing them.
Good luck!
Thanks, all, for your advice! Still not sure what I'll do, we'll see how I feel and how it all works out timing-wise tomorrow.
25 - yes, I can tell this has been hard on H's family. H's mom and both SILs have messaged me/reached out to ask how I'm doing, that they think of me often, etc. H's older SIL (who is married w/ children) went so far as to say "we're worried that he's treating you like sh*t during this". She asked how long we've been "working on things" because she believes D is a last resort, and was unhappy to hear that we haven't actually been working on anything since H's BD came out of the blue with no opportunity for "work". She also said she'd be listening ear for either one of us, but that H has not reached out to her and that it was too bad he hadn't, as she would like to tell him marriage isn't all butterflies and rainbows, etc. I've done my best to stay out of it and just respond with basic things like "I'm glad to hear you're thinking of me, thank you, I'm doing OK all things considered".
H's relationship with his mom... hmm. Well, he doesn't talk to her on the phone multiple times a week like his SILs do, so they're not really close emotionally. However, she devotes her life to taking care of her kids/grandkids and H especially as the only boy. Throughout college and when he moved back home for awhile afterwards she'd continue to schedule appointments for him, make him dinner every night, etc. A couple of months ago we bought a snowblower but it wouldn't fit in the car. I suggested we rent a uhaul or borrow a friend's truck in town, he instead called his mom and asked her if she'd come to our city and bring her van just to help get it to our house. She lives an hour away! The reason she's actually coming tomorrow is to bring him things he's certainly capable of buying himself but that she thought he might like (like girl scout cookies). She'll mail him coupons that he doesn't know what to do with. She'll give him food to make "her chili" which again he's capable of buying. She coddles him and he's not very thankful, like he just expects it. For example, w/ the snowblower, he blew up at her about something with how it was loaded in the van, when he should have been grateful she was even willing to make a special trip to do that. During BD he told me how he wished I would be more like his mother... which I take to mean cooking all his meals, making phone calls for him, etc. Though I don't think he'd be attracted to someone who mothers him?
Re: them and the situation, H did say after he told her about his "decision" that she said something about how it was important he be happy and that she didn't want him to end up like her/her M. She apparently told H that she was just waiting for his dad to die and maybe then she could be happy and find someone else. They're just married for convenience. I imagine this somehow plays into everything H is thinking about... though I think we have the capacity to actually DO something about it if we found ourselves falling into "convenience." H's view is very pessimistic and rigid - people can't change, nothing will change, if it does it will only be for a little while and we'll just find ourselves in the same place 5 years from now. I think I am capable of change. But maybe he doesn't have the capability or interest. Whatever grass is greener elsewhere isn't going to be magically easier!
Is it ever OK to point out a WAS's discrepancy between something they want and the choices they have made? For example, yesterday when I was getting ready to go to a friend's house I was packing a card game that H has yet to play, since I got it for Christmas. H said "I really want to play that game... someday I'll get the chance to." Someday with me? Someday with other people? Who knows.. but anyways, what I WANTED to say was "well, that's really up to you, isn't it? The choice you've made led you to not being invited." What I actually did was ignore the statement. If we were together he certainly would have been invited and we'd all be hanging out together. Not sure if it helps or hurts to point it out.
Mindreading.
He could also buy the cards and invite friends to play, he may just be making conversation, he me be...
As long as you do that and let it go, it's pretty harmless. It's when you believe what you think to be the truth is when you get stuck.
He'll either figure out his choices are hurting him, (if in fact they are) or not.
You did the right thing, let it go.
Keep the focus on you.
Turns out H's mom was just going to stop by to drop his stuff off, and then they were going to go to lunch and see a movie. So I opted to come out and say hi to her when she got here.. we chit-chatted for awhile and H just listened with occasional interjections. Then H said it was time to get going so they could make it to the movie on time. I said "have a good lunch, and a good movie!" and his mom said "aren't you coming to lunch?" Awkward. H said "No?" with a look on his face like "obviously not" and she said "oh... ok. I guess we'll go have a good lunch and a good movie then." When she went to the bathroom I said to H "I mean, I could come to lunch, but I didn't think I was invited or that I was wanted there." His response: "I don't think we'd have time to go to lunch, drop you off, and then go to the movie." This movie was one I had already seen by myself and he knows that. I said lightly "well, it was a pretty good movie and I wouldn't mind seeing it again, but it's really up to you!" and walked away. No answer. They just left. Ugh. This is where the struggle is - how can he act normally most of the time but sometimes not? I want all or nothing. Either be my H so we can go out to eat, go to movies, hang out with each other's families, or not so I can find someone else who will actually want to do those things with me.
I said lightly "well, it was a pretty good movie and I wouldn't mind seeing it again, but it's really up to you!" and walked away. No answer. They just left. Ugh.
I am going to be a little forward here and say, "you fell right into that one!". If you are going to apply the DB principles, you should not make plans or dates with your H. You knew that he was going out with his mom, so you should have made plans for you! You need to understand that you need to give him space, he needs to see that you are going on with your life, as if, without him. I know it is hard. I faced the same situation this weekend when my H and his family had plans for his dad's bday. Instead of wasting time trying to predict what I'd say, am I invited, if so, should I go, I made plans with a friend, so I didn't have to "torture" myself with this..
Trust me when I say that it DOES get easier, and if we only apply all the principles in DR, we will get through this..hang in there!
His response: "I don't think we'd have time to go to lunch, drop you off, and then go to the movie." This movie was one I had already seen by myself and he knows that. I said lightly "well, it was a pretty good movie and I wouldn't mind seeing it again, but it's really up to you!" and walked away. No answer. They just left. Ugh. This is where the struggle is - how can he act normally most of the time but sometimes not? I want all or nothing.
Stings, doesn't it? But what would be "normal" about a man taking his STBX and his mother to lunch and a movie?
Read that snippet above and retell it with you being in charge of you, the way you wish you would ended it.
TA - Ha, yes, I did fall right into it. Trying to be nice to H's mom/say hi kinda backfired because then I got too involved. I think I let all of the seemingly positive interactions lately get the best of me in thinking things were different or changed. I need to take a big step backwards from him. When his mom asked if I was coming, I should have just let H answer "no" and walked away. No follow-up, no saying "well I COULD come.. etc." Let him handle his mom and explaining to her.
So when they came back from the movie I just retreated to a different room and read. I heard them talking about skyping his niece/nephew and they started up the TV and everything. While they were chatting H came to find me and said... "Aren't you going to come Skype with us?" ?!? This is where I'm confused, labug. So he thinks I should skype with his family, but not that I would go to lunch? I don't understand. Is there something different about these scenarios that I'm missing that makes one "OK" and the other not? Or does he just want interaction on his terms when HE feels like it? I probably should have said no to the Skype, but like with his mom, my relationship w/ nieces and nephew is separate than my relationship with him and I don't want to just cut that off because he's being .. whatever he's being. So I came and said hi and listened to them talk about their missing teeth and all those cute things relevant to kids under 10. But it feels awkward because H doesn't WANT me to be a part of his life or his family (I don't think it's mindreading because he said he wants a divorce..unless he really thinks we can continue to hang out and be friends and do family functions without being married??) So why is he encouraging me to interact with them?
I can see why you see that as confusing but you can still do what you want, take control of what you do and not be confusing.
About going out to lunch, reframe it so it comes from you: No MIL, I have plans for today. Enjoy your lunch.
About skyping, why put yourself through that. "No H, you and MIL enjoy your time talking with (whoever)."
If you want to continue a R with them, you can skype with them.
Don't try to figure out why he's doing what he's doing. Just be sure of why you're doing what you're doing.
Feeling stuck lately….
I’m in a tough place with making changes for myself. A lot of the things I wrote about previously that I wanted to change are either attitudes (so, hard to demonstrate) or things that kinda require H to communicate/interact with me. Or, they aren’t sustainable if we were to R. Examples:
-Being more appreciative and admiring of H - kinda requires him to do things that I would admire or appreciate. He doesn’t cook, clean, do helpful things around the house besides shovel snow (hasn’t snowed in a while…) tell me about his day or work or soccer or anything else he does, so it’s hard to find things to compliment him on besides how he looks/what he’s wearing and I don’t want it to be overdone. I’m not going to stretch it just to be complementary and say something like “Wow, good job on winning 3 FIFA games in a row on XBox!”
-Being on the same “team” or side as H in conversation. In the past when he’d complain about his boss or other things he was unhappy about I tended to play devil’s advocate and say “well I can kind of see their point, you DID do this…” I want to change this dynamic but I can’t do it unless he actually TALKS to me.
-Not questioning/commenting/criticizing on where he’s going, when, or who he’s with. Right now I just ignore when he leaves or is gone and don’t say anything. This isn’t sustainable, and I don’t want to give the wrong idea that this is how it would still be if we were to R - I don’t think it’s an unreasonable expectation in a healthy M that you let your spouse know if you’re going out and in a vague way at least who you’re with (“I’m going out with some people from work after work, don’t wait for me for dinner” I’d be perfectly happy with), or that you won’t be home at the normal time. This isn’t an unrealistic expectation for normal people, is it?? I feel like I’m just ignoring it right now just to “get him back” but then when I start asking or saying things like “could you please write out your weekly schedule on the calendar so I know what days you’ll be home for dinner?” that it’ll be back to the “same old” and he’ll feel tricked.
-Trusting him. Well, I can only trust him so much if he doesn’t tell me where he’s going, has all of his accounts and phone on lock-down, etc.
Am I just not looking hard enough to find the changes I should make that are purely about me and NOT about how I interact with him? I’ve read and re-read a couple of books on codependency and am re-thinking my mindset in regards to that… but I really don’t know what else. I try talking with my IC about it and he says I’m doing way above and beyond what I should be concerned about, and that this is really more about my H’s issues, not any issues I think I have. When I bring up how I get jealous/anxious about H’s whereabouts and who he’s with, IC says “but you described X, Y, and Z time where he broke your trust and wasn’t remorseful. I don’t think your reactions are inappropriate.” How can I dig deeper?
I also feel stuck with the situation in general. I told myself not to do anything until March 15. I was thinking about temp checking on that date if nothing has changed but I think I need to know what I’d DO with that information if I were to do that besides just knowing for the sake of knowing (like, if H says “oh yes, I’m still planning on divorcing you, just haven’t gotten around to that” then I’d need to be able to say “OK, well I’m going to move forward with it because I want to move on with my life, and here’s how that will go..”) No point in asking otherwise. But I am starting to move towards being tired of this situation and thinking that leaving/starting the filing process would be better than whatever this is. I could move out, not be responsible for the mortgage, get my own place and set it up how I want, buy my own car with the money I’d get from the equity (I’m borrowing a piece of junk from my parents with 170,000+ miles on it), and not have to see H on a daily basis reminding me that I’m living with someone who no longer loves me. The L I spoke with rec’d getting all of the settlement agreement done and turned in with the actual petition to file, so that way everything can be effective right away. It takes at least 4 months before the D to be final so there’d still be time… and even after that, it can be torn up and the M restored immediately for up to 6 months after D is final. Or I could file for S, which would take care of the financial aspects, and then after a year either person could say “I want a D” and convert it immediately.
What things should I be asking myself or thinking about before temp checking/thinking of filing on my own to make sure I’ve left no stone unturned? My answer to “if he told you tomorrow he wanted to R, would you be interested?” is still yes, but not without a lot of work and stipulations on his part (IC/MC, NC w/ EA at work, etc.). Knowing what I know about my H I don’t know how likely those things are to actually happen. Someone posted in another thread about how their S’s attitude was that it should be “enough” that they came back. I could see H being like that. And pulling a “we’re just friends, she doesn’t even know I liked her that way, I can be friends with whoever I want” with the OW from work. I can’t really move out w/out filing unless I want to pay for my half of the mortgage AND rent, so it’s a catch-22 - I don’t see a solution.
Bumping my last post up...lots of activity today. Could use some thoughts!
Can you file for S and still live there? If he wants "out" then he should be the one to leave, IMO.
Problem is he wants (and likely could actually afford) the house and I don't. The filing would state that he has to refinance in his name only and pay me half the equity and if that isn't possible then it would have to be sold. I agree it s*cks that he wants this but wouldn't have to move...but it's a very expensive and not very logical choice. Which seems to demonstrate not much thought into the actual process. The only financial reason to file would be so I could get removed from the mortgage so no point to filing if I stay in the house. And he said at the beginning he has no problem living together so he won't leave even temporarily!
Feeling stuck lately….
I’m in a tough place with making changes for myself. A lot of the things I wrote about previously that I wanted to change are either attitudes (so, hard to demonstrate) or things that kinda require H to communicate/interact with me. Or, they aren’t sustainable if we were to R. Examples:
-Being more appreciative and admiring of H - kinda requires him to do things that I would admire or appreciate. He doesn’t cook, clean, do helpful things around the house besides shovel snow (hasn’t snowed in a while…) tell me about his day or work or soccer or anything else he does, so it’s hard to find things to compliment him on besides how he looks/what he’s wearing and I don’t want it to be overdone. I’m not going to stretch it just to be complementary and say something like “Wow, good job on winning 3 FIFA games in a row on XBox!”
Now that's funny!
-Being on the same “team” or side as H in conversation. In the past when he’d complain about his boss or other things he was unhappy about I tended to play devil’s advocate and say “well I can kind of see their point, you DID do this…” I want to change this dynamic but I can’t do it unless he actually TALKS to me.
-Not questioning/commenting/criticizing on where he’s going, when, or who he’s with. Right now I just ignore when he leaves or is gone and don’t say anything. This isn’t sustainable, and I don’t want to give the wrong idea that this is how it would still be if we were to R - I don’t think it’s an unreasonable expectation in a healthy M that you let your spouse know if you’re going out and in a vague way at least who you’re with (“I’m going out with some people from work after work, don’t wait for me for dinner” I’d be perfectly happy with), or that you won’t be home at the normal time. This isn’t an unrealistic expectation for normal people, is it??
No, it's not unreasonable but you're not in a healthy marriage right now. I don't understand the "I don't want to give him the wrong idea"???
I feel like I’m just ignoring it right now just to “get him back” but then when I start asking or saying things like “could you please write out your weekly schedule on the calendar so I know what days you’ll be home for dinner?” that it’ll be back to the “same old” and he’ll feel tricked.
I think you're jumping way too far ahead.
If you get into another R with him, then you can address those things as needed.
Trusting him. Well, I can only trust him so much if he doesn’t tell me where he’s going, has all of his accounts and phone on lock-down, etc.
What is there to trust right now? He sees himself as single, on the way to D.
Am I just not looking hard enough to find the changes I should make that are purely about me and NOT about how I interact with him? I’ve read and re-read a couple of books on codependency and am re-thinking my mindset in regards to that… but I really don’t know what else. I try talking with my IC about it and he says I’m doing way above and beyond what I should be concerned about, and that this is really more about my H’s issues, not any issues I think I have. When I bring up how I get jealous/anxious about H’s whereabouts and who he’s with, IC says “but you described X, Y, and Z time where he broke your trust and wasn’t remorseful. I don’t think your reactions are inappropriate.” How can I dig deeper?
Maybe you've dug as far as you need to at this point. Your T is probably on to something.
You can't change your H. Either he'll respond to your changes or he won't. It's not the goal of DB to turn you into a Stepford Wife. Your changes should only be things you know within yourself that you need to work on in order to have a happy life.
If you're happy with you, relax, enjoy life. If he wants to walk away from the awesomeness that is you, that's his loss.
If you know you still have things to work on then do that but make it about you. Once you feel good about yourself and are able to like/love yourself, you'll attract people who can like/love you.
I also feel stuck with the situation in general. I told myself not to do anything until March 15. I was thinking about temp checking on that date if nothing has changed but I think I need to know what I’d DO with that information if I were to do that besides just knowing for the sake of knowing (like, if H says “oh yes, I’m still planning on divorcing you, just haven’t gotten around to that” then I’d need to be able to say “OK, well I’m going to move forward with it because I want to move on with my life, and here’s how that will go..”) No point in asking otherwise. But I am starting to move towards being tired of this situation and thinking that leaving/starting the filing process would be better than whatever this is. I could move out, not be responsible for the mortgage, get my own place and set it up how I want, buy my own car with the money I’d get from the equity (I’m borrowing a piece of junk from my parents with 170,000+ miles on it), and not have to see H on a daily basis reminding me that I’m living with someone who no longer loves me. The L I spoke with rec’d getting all of the settlement agreement done and turned in with the actual petition to file, so that way everything can be effective right away. It takes at least 4 months before the D to be final so there’d still be time… and even after that, it can be torn up and the M restored immediately for up to 6 months after D is final. Or I could file for S, which would take care of the financial aspects, and then after a year either person could say “I want a D” and convert it immediately.
What things should I be asking myself or thinking about before temp checking/thinking of filing on my own to make sure I’ve left no stone unturned? My answer to “if he told you tomorrow he wanted to R, would you be interested?” is still yes, but not without a lot of work and stipulations on his part (IC/MC, NC w/ EA at work, etc.). Knowing what I know about my H I don’t know how likely those things are to actually happen. Someone posted in another thread about how their S’s attitude was that it should be “enough” that they came back. I could see H being like that. And pulling a “we’re just friends, she doesn’t even know I liked her that way, I can be friends with whoever I want” with the OW from work. I can’t really move out w/out filing unless I want to pay for my half of the mortgage AND rent, so it’s a catch-22 - I don’t see a solution.
There is a solution, you just don't like it.
What do you love about your H-not the H you met in the beginning, but the current version. What makes him a good match for you, right now, today?
No, it's not unreasonable but you're not in a healthy marriage right now. I don't understand the "I don't want to give him the wrong idea"???
Maybe I'm taking the DR advice too literally. The book and the boards talk about how changes need to be for you and not just to get the other person back. I guess I'm seeing ignoring where he's going/not asking him when and where he'll be back as being purely to get him back because that is NOT a change I would keep if we were to R. Giving him the "wrong idea" is in the sense that he'll think "awesome, I can do what I want and don't have to answer to anything, maybe this CAN work if this is what she'll be like!" and it is NOT what I would be like.
What do you love about your H-not the H you met in the beginning, but the current version. What makes him a good match for you, right now, today?
This is a tough thing to answer. If I'm thinking literally right now, today, really not much. I don't think someone who walks away when it gets tough, who isn't willing to even talk about things, and who when they DO make a "decision" won't follow through on it is not someone that is a good match for me or who I want to be with. If I think more generally about who my H is especially pre-BD... I made a list of those things this afternoon, probably don't need to jam up my post with posting them all
Not sure that it helped clarify anything for me. Mostly made me sad because the things I love are inaccessible right now. For example, I wrote that I H and I each know a lot about our own different "thigs" and I love that he can fill me in on sports stuff and I can fill him in on changes at our alma mater (where I work). Or, that I think he's attractive and that I love our "physical" interactions
But none of that stuff is happening today... we only talk at a very superficial and otherwise navigate around the house like cordial roommates. Not much I love about that situation right now.
KGirl,
"Being on the same “team” or side as H in conversation. In the past when he’d complain about his boss or other things he was unhappy about I tended to play devil’s advocate and say “well I can kind of see their point, you DID do this…” I want to change this dynamic but I can’t do it unless he actually TALKS to me.
-Not questioning/commenting/criticizing on where he’s going, when, or who he’s with. Right now I just ignore when he leaves or is gone and don’t say anything. This isn’t sustainable, and I don’t want to give the wrong idea that this is how it would still be if we were to R - I don’t think it’s an unreasonable expectation in a healthy M that you let your spouse know if you’re going out and in a vague way at least who you’re with (“I’m going out with some people from work after work, don’t wait for me for dinner” I’d be perfectly happy with), or that you won’t be home at the normal time. This isn’t an unrealistic expectation for normal people, is it??"
The Devil's Advocate thing really came back to bite me in the bum also.
4 months after the S we were having a R talk brought on by her and I was empathizing with her as much as I could and she would say "your just telling me what I want to hear" but she said one thing that made my ears perk up even more.
She said: You were never on my side you always picked work people over me. It was always "why are they mad what did you do" is what you would say.
It wasn't exactly like that but I did play devils advocate a majority of the time when all she wanted was a hug and a sympathetic ear and shoulder. I eventually got to the sympathy part during these work talks but according to her the damage had already been done. So she felt like I never had her back. it was not my intention but I understand how it could seem that way to her.
My problem like you is not enough talking to be on her side. The frustration with everyday life is now being told to everybody else but me.
Recently, she has told me of things that are troubling her but not too much so I haven't had a chance to be on "her side" that much.
When I get the chance though I use it much more wisely then I would have before the S
Your story sounds very similar but we have a 2 year old and I'm 8 months pregnant. Which is a whole nother mess. I just joined and ordered the DB books so haven't read them but have been living by sandis rules and who knows..