I hope everyone had a great holiday! I have been on the road travelling between states to visit family, taking care of the rehabilitating wife, the ailing mother, and just connecting with my loved ones. It was a good season.
Link to last thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2420062&#Post2420062So my New Year did not bring resolutions. Instead I am going to focus on perspective... How I view the circumstances of my journey.
On NYEve W and I went to dinner with some friends... super awesome, supportive friends. We were in bed by 10pm and stayed up to watch the ball drop. It was a good time but W was in some post- therapy pain and I was lucky enough to slip my back a few days earlier so we were a sight to see!
Perspective is my new favorite word. It's helping me with my litmus test on where my marriage stands and where I am in this journey.
It's easy to stay in the "woe". To live in the space of BD, ILYINILWY, the affair, the separation, but the other day my Aunt said to me, "your wife is at home with you." So that started my shift to examining my reality from a different perspective.
Instead of wondering why reconciliation is so hard, I try to focus on the positive differences in my relationship with W today in comparison to one year ago today or two years ago today. For example:
Two years ago today: My W was in an illicit affair for a almost year and I had no clue. We were completely disconnected and resentful of one another. I was wallowing in financial devastation and anger and she was self medicating with her AP. Our communication and emotional intimacy were cracked.
One year ago today: My W had just recently told me the affair was emotional and physical, my world was unravelling, I was snooping and finding evidence that she was planning on leaving me. I was at the lowest point of my life.
Today: I woke up rested and got ready for work, put on bright shiny make-up, had coffee in bed watching the news while my W was sleeping next to me. I recently got a raise, I'm enrolled in my 2nd semester of college and I have more new friends from this past year than I can count. I kissed my W before leaving for work and she told me she loved me. I just spent part of the holidays with my W's family (I have never done that in 13 yrs!) Today I can see my future. The one that is just about me. And for the first time in a long time... I can see the possibility of what my marriage can become.
Sweet.
That's an excellent way to look at things. Congrats on the progress. Here's to an awesome 2014!
I was just thinking about yo last night.
Sounds like a good start to 2014.
I was just thinking about yo last night.
Sounds like a good start to 2014.
Hello darlin'! I'm was just catching up reading Ruby's thread. Thanks for thinking of me! I've got a lot of thread reading to do today and tomorrow!
Missed ya'll!
Good stuff RT! So glad to see all the positives in your "today". All the best to you in this new year.
BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO!!!!!!!
Im literally standing in my office sending you a fist bump and high five!!!!!
RT,
What a wonderful update! Thanks for sharing.
A coupla things:
1) How did W behave during post-op recovery? What was her overall demeanor?
2) As for visiting the ILs for the first time in 13 years, how did that make you feel? How did W feel about this? Did that encourage more closeness between you two?
3) Where does W stand in regard to the ex-OW?
4) Are there plans to attend Gottman-based MC?
Good job with being willing to change your perspective. Not an easy thing to do as we generally like to dig in when it comes to our own thoughts and beliefs.
RT, I loved your post and your new perspective. It seems you do have a lot to be positive about and grateful for. I'll be watching to see your updates, and wishing you the best in the meantime!
RT, just getting caught up on your sitch.
You are one strong woman! Your attitude is amazing & I admire it dearly.
To come to the place you are now after years of standing for marriage & DBing is great.
The transformation you have made as a person speaks for itself.
Keep it up!
Happy new year!
Hola DB'ers!
Spin: You my main man! And I'm a lesbian... so you can take that to the bank! LOL!!! I love your support! I read your post and took a bow (literally) to your standing ovation. heeehee! You make me smile!
Mimi: Thanks for the well wishes! I will mozy on over to your thread and read up on your sitch. I hope you have an amazing new year too!
Melissa: You are a rockstar yourself woman! Bright and intuitive. You keep hangin' in there!
In_It: Girrrrl! We've been in the trenches together! I'm gald to hear from you. After I post today I'm going to see if you've updated! Happy New year sweetie!
Wonka: Great questions from my mentor! I'm going to respond separately.
A coupla things:
1) How did W behave during post-op recovery? What was her overall demeanor?
W's overall demeanor has been uber-loving, very appreciative of my support, but I can sense that she is definitley in a personal space of healing and recovery so I have left all marital recovery stuff warming on the back burner (at your advice!) and it has definitely been the right thing to do. Sometimes she cries, well she cries a lot. My intuition pings sometimes that the tears are not only post-op but AP grieving/guilt as well. I leave it all alone and let her sit with it. I'm not trying to mind read, but I'm realistic. She's riding some rough waves with her body recouping, her A ending and our reconnection. I keep in mind she's dealing with all that AND percocet. So... I'm not borrowing any trouble Wonks! And practicing STFU like SD taught me... where is that girl anyway?
2) As for visiting the ILs for the first time in 13 years, how did that make you feel? How did W feel about this? Did that encourage more closeness between you two?
It wasn't the first time I've visited, just the first time I was included in "holiday" time. It was great. W has been vocal to her 2 supportive brothers and mother about her angst that her father and oldest brothers don't include me. I thank her each time I hear her. It seems to empower her. YES! It has most definitely encouraged more connection. I have made an effort to call her mom on a couple of times on my own to say hello, thanks her for the gift, or just check in. This is a major 180 that I think W is very atuned to. In the past I was of the mindset that if they didn't accept me then I didn't need them. Big puffed up ego stuff. I am trying to make more of an effort to connect. Flies with honey kind of thing. I have know for years it meant a lot to my W but I was stubborn and "right". I am confidently changing that.
3) Where does W stand in regard to the ex-OW?
Well... I'm not asking. I take that back. On the way home from her brothers after we were separated for a week, I did ask. It was the right time and non-chalant... I said, "It hasn't come up, but did you and x-AP have any contact over Christmas?" She said, "No we haven't. Not at all." I said, "Thanks, for answering me. I needed to ask but I'm sorry if it upset you." (I don't know why I apologized. She didn't seem angry at all. (co-dependant scardy child crept up I guess) She answered, "No problem. I understand. But no, No contact at all."
4) Are there plans to attend Gottman-based MC?
We have not made MC plans yet. We have discussed that it's coming but she asked for some time to do IC first. I am respecting that.
RT,
It is good to hear that W is attending IC to work through her issues. The MC can wait until later when W is more comfortable with the notion herself.
The ILs can be a minefield that can be difficult for anyone to navigate through. Ms. Wonka is particularly close to her family so I spent quite bit of time with the ILs and that included travels together. It isn't about me...but Ms. Wonka and her happiness. Sometimes that requires negotiation and compromise.
RT. Sounding good!!
And no, I don't see your question and response as co dependent. It's a learning curve, this thing called life, right?
I have learned that sometimes stuff just doesn't go away, no matter how much we calmly and rationally tell ourselves otherwise. So if you had to ask, you asked.
Next time, you may not need to.
wonderful news. it gives me hope. Only 1 month into separation here.
RT.
You made me cry with your last post on my thread. I heart you!
Yesterday I asked W to meet an emotional need of mine. And she DID!
There has been a ton going on with her surgery, in-laws, holidays, and it's been super stressful. For a day or so I had been feeling like I needed more touch, more love affirmation. Not because I was insecure, but because I was tired. I just needed the pleasantness and calming of physical closeness.
I said to W early in the day, "I feel like I need to be loved on. I'm really tired. When I get home form work tonight I'm just going to be. I'm not even doing the dishes." (W is still recouping form surgery so all of the household load is squarely on my shoulders... but it's ok)
W said, "Me too. I need to be loved on too." We jokingly bantered back and forth that she now feels spoiled with all the post-op attention and wants it to stay that way. Then she unexpectedly apologized for not having met my emotional needs. She said, "I'm sorry. I just haven't had a whole lot to give lately." I told her I completely understood. The conversation was light and humorous but we definitley were communicating.
Later last light, I was true to my word and vegged out. I didn't even want to cook so I ordered pizza. As I was taking it to the kitchen W called out from the bedroom, "bring it in here". HUH? too cute. We haven't had a bed picnic in years. So I did, we each ate 2 slices and watched some TV. Then she opened her arms and invited me to lay on her chest. She stoked my back and head for a good while as we watched television and I eventually fell asleep there.
I didn't realize until I had an unmet need and vocalized it, that I feared she wouldn't want to or be able to meet it. But now that I've communicated one and she listened and acted upon it of her own accord later that night, I feel like we really are doing ok.
Until the next rough wave... I'm floating calmly.
You shine brightly with your DBing, RT!!!
I liked how you were gentle with your request for affection. A nice dab touch right there.
Great update, RT! Hope the waters stay calm.
Hi ladies! Thanks for the love.
This morning I was late for work. W woke up early with me to have coffee since she has an early physcial therapy appt. and we just started talking. I couldn't leave. It wasn't the right time. We were in the zone.
W had some tears over the post-op pain, she wanted to talk about some anxiety she was having in going back to work. We hashed that stuff out, I reached over and held her hand when she started to tear up. (I am still holding true to my 180 of not trying to "make her feel better", but instead, sit with her in the true emotions.)
I took the opportunity of closeness to thank her and acknowledge the other night when she met my emotional need that I had brought to her attention. She said "you're welcome". Then she told me that she made another IC session for next week. She started to open up about all the "personal work" she needs to do and is ready for. She expressed that she wanted to start journaling and asked if I was ok with that. "Of course! What a great idea!" She was worried that placing all of those personal things into a journal would somehow hinder her transparency to me and might cause me pain or stress. I ASSURED her it wouldn't and told her again that I thought it was a wonderful idea that she had.
Then she said, "I know we are on the back burner and it sounds selfish after everything I've put you through but I need some time to work on me. I'm no good for us until I do this."
I had a conscious moment where I made sure I was making eye contact so that she would KNOW I heard her. I responded that I understood and that I am ok for now. I told her that regardless of where our future takes us as a couple, that I truly wanted her to heal herself and be happy. She said, "I know that. But I know you want us to go to MC together and I want that to, but I need to do this for me."
I told her again that I understood and I was ok for now. I expressed that I'm glad she is taking the time for herself, that I had a lot of it while she was on Walkabout, and I wanted the same for her.
It was a good morning. I think the thing that stood out to me most was that MC is still on W's radar. She's not avoiding it, she's just not ready, and that is ok. But she's not living in the Fog all day, every day (Oh she likes to hide here on occasion, but she doesn't live there full-time) she's thinking.... and now she's opening up and talking about her emotions.... to me... and no longer to xAP.
RT, you are amazing . . . truly an example of a spouse only a fool would leave, and an inspiration to the rest of us DBers. That's great that your W has recognized that she needs to do some personal work, and is wiling to do it. Something most of us only wish our WASs would do! I guess I have to give her some credit, too . . . as I know all too well, it's not so easy to acknowledge the need, or to wade through the ugly muck.
RT, how did you manage to let go of the anger and resentment I am sure you must have felt about your W's A and everything she put you through for so long?
You are sweet Melissa. Thanks for supporting me!
RT, how did you manage to let go of the anger and resentment I am sure you must have felt about your W's A and everything she put you through for so long?
How did I let go? Well, before I talk about my detachment, I need to emphasize that I am not "over" the A and neither is my marriage nor my W. There is a lot of work for each of us as individual's and as a couple to do. Years worth I'm anticipating.
So letting go of the anger and resentment... Not easy. And I haven't completely. Forgiveness is daily. Each time I have a trigger or a mind movie, which have increased again since W moved home, but I think that's probably normal, after all, W is my single biggest trigger right? The goal for me is not to "let go" of those uncomfortable emotions, but to transform them into something positive. I've got to go though them and feel them, no way around it, but waaaayyyy back on one of my earlier threads, I made the proclomation that I wanted the pain I felt to mean something and to have a redemptive purpose. I believe that pain not transformed is transferred and that if I have to feel it and go through it, I want the pain to have a purpose and a meaning in my life. Anger and resentment are secondary emotions. They are the reflections of unprocessed pain and unfaced fears.
The PAIN has been the realization that my W hurt me. Knowingly. The truth that my marriage was not ok and that I had some part in that.
The FEAR was that I would be alone. Not that I would lose my W, but that I would be alone and unloved by anyone.
I have spent a lot of time pinpointing these two things.
Well now, I have a choice. Go the route of bitter, vengeful, unforgiving betrayed spouse, which was my first instict, but where would that get me? What did I want?
I want be happy, strong, to grow. And I want to save my marriage, to make it better. To make it what it should have been all along.
I've also had to accept that W and I are two completely different people who process emotions in different ways and at different speeds, with different points of view. Giving up the very stong need to control and manipulate the way my W perceives the A and everything after it has been difficult but also eases the anger and resentment.
When we finally do reach MC, I think that will be the time for me to revisit those angry memories and resentful feelings and pull them off the shelf. Part of truly processing them in terms of the health of my marriage will be to come to a place of trust where I can share them with W without fear of retaliation or W running away. She's not ready for that. She's not strong enough. She already told me so by asking for time for IC and I am respecting it.
So I focus on what I can control and deal with today. My own self-esteem, my GAL, my DB'ing, my 180's, my family and in-law relationships, my work, my studies, and my forgiveness.
The more I focus on these things, the lighter the "anger and resentment" box seems on the shelf of "to-do's."
On more thought, I keep focused on the knowledge that my marriage and relationship with my W are so much more than the experience of the affair. My marriage was never defined by that in the first decade and it is not defined by it now.
A's, MLC's, addictions, these things do not define our marriages. They are simply things we go through and grow from. We decide whether or not to embrace that growth.
The FEAR was that I would be alone. Not that I would lose my W, but that I would be alone and unloved by anyone.
I would like to point this out ^^^ to newbies and other posters who are struggling with detachment. This is a VERY important point in the DBing process. Far too many times, I see posters getting stuck and stay stuck precisely because of the fear being alone.
Once a person gets past this particular fear, DBing and detachment become much more easier. Because one knows he/she is gonna be okay either way. That is often when situations turn around because the WAS
senses this change in the air.
For all you newbies and stuck people, keep chipping away at this fear of being alone. Get to the other side of this fear and you'll be truly okay.
You have had a remarkable turn around of events in the last 2 years. Congratulations on acknowledging the progress you have made. In order to continue on this positive path you may want to consider the advice and knowledge of our Divorce Busting coaches.
Please call me at 303-444-7004. Wishing you continued hapiness.
The FEAR was that I would be alone. Not that I would lose my W, but that I would be alone and unloved by anyone.
I would like to point this out ^^^ to newbies and other posters who are struggling with detachment. This is a VERY important point in the DBing process. Far too many times, I see posters getting stuck and stay stuck precisely because of the fear being alone.
Once a person gets past this particular fear, DBing and detachment become much more easier. Because one knows he/she is gonna be okay either way. That is often when situations turn around because the WAS
senses this change in the air.
For all you newbies and stuck people, keep chipping away at this fear of being alone. Get to the other side of this fear and you'll be truly okay.
I second that.
hey there Spin.
No tales to tell. W is out of town working. Things are quiet. She sent me a sweet text this morning "singing" good morning to me. I responded with an LOL, a smiley face and told her she makes me happy.
I wonder. W in the past, when still in the A, would make comments that she didn't think I would ever be able to forgive her. I wonder how she feels now? I try not to bring up too many questions about her time in the A and on Walkbout. Occassionally I will have a burning question that I allow myself to ask, but not without prefacing it to W before I do with, "I have a question about Walkbout", to make sure she is in the frame of mind answer it. Usually she says "ok", once or twice she's asked if we can talk about it later... I respect that. We communicate better when we are both ready to do it.
But I wonder where she is on the LBS "forgiveness fear." I realized a while ago that if we didn't survive that it wouldn't be because I couldn't forgive her, it would be because she couldn't forgive herself. So I'm thinking that maybe, for anyone else out there that's ever heard the affair spouse say, "I don't think you will ever be able to forgive me.", that those words should be filed under "WAS justification" to continue doing what they are doing. They need us to NOT forgive them to give them permission to continue.
This stuff ain't easy friends. Feel, cry, release. Think, dissect, overthink. Feel, process, learn. It's getting easier.
While file it anywhere? That's past, you are now here, today.
You can choose to hold on to that fear or let it go.
She's OOT working already? I read that over a few times thinking I must be in the wrong thread.
Yes Bug! She is already working after bilateral replacement. She has been rehabbing like a fiend. Granted she is using a cane and has a wheelchair assist in airports but she's a tough one for sure! I tried to get her to take more time but she let the pressure of needing to make money win over.
While file it anywhere? That's past, you are now here, today.
You can choose to hold on to that fear or let it go.
I'm just processing. When things come back to me I go over them for a while on purpose so I don't supress them. I don't want them to revisit me years down the road like some balloon surfacing from under water.
I'm good though. Except for my dang back is killing me!
I'm GAL'ing tonight with a friend. She's coming over and we are making margaritas and catching up! That reminds me... I need salsa.
RT, it's been a while since I've read up on your thread. Congrats on the positive moves... you are a rock star!!!
I love your take on the fear of being alone. I struggled big time with that and still it rears it's ugly head from time to time. I think it was the biggest hurdle for me to overcome. Most of my anger and resentment can be directly tied to this. I am curious how you worked through your fear. I hear so many times about working through yet I've not seen a good example of what to do.
Good morning friends
I am curious how you worked through your fear. I hear so many times about working through yet I've not seen a good example of what to do.
Hi SG, glad you stopped by. To answer your question, I am still working through this fear. There have been a couple of things that I have focused on. In a sense, teaching myself to overcome the fear with realistic evaluation. I think of it much like teaching a child to overcome a fear. A child might have a fear of the dark, or a fear of what's in the closet. And we teach them that there is nothing to be afraid of with continual coaching and affirmation until they are relieved of the fear to the point of comfort.
So the fear of being alone and unloved, for me is the same process. I try to teach myself that there is nothing to fear in being alone and that I am never unloved.
I think most DB'ers at some point get really good at recognizing emotions as they come up. Especially when they begin to make us uncomfortable. And if the rest of you are anything like me, I've instinctively reached the point where I vocalize the emotion to myself and ask "why am I feeling this right now?" The process of stepping outside of feeling and be my own best friend, my own sounding board, my own therapist.
If a dear friend came to me with this emotion, hurdle, anxiety, what would I say to them? How would I try to help them process? What would I say to another DB'er on the board? How would I coach someone I loved in this moment? How am I going to teach and love ME in this moment?
This is how I deal with a lot of my fears or worries, not just the one of ending up alone. It's not always easy to disengage the emotion and analyze it, but with practice it's gotten easier and the rough waves don't stay around as long. Critical thinking has a way of taking away the power of desperation and gives me strength. And the good new is... critical thinking can be taught.
I hope this makes some kind of sense to you. Everyone's process is going to be different, but for me, it's been working. I "spin" less and less these days.
RT, thank you for this post. I have the same issues with working though my fear, hurt and anger, but find that often times I am still stuffing it down or talking myself out of it - not good.
I have copied your post so I can remind myself what I need to do when these things come up.
Good morning friends
I am curious how you worked through your fear. I hear so many times about working through yet I've not seen a good example of what to do.
Hi SG, glad you stopped by. To answer your question, I am still working through this fear. There have been a couple of things that I have focused on. In a sense, teaching myself to overcome the fear with realistic evaluation. I think of it much like teaching a child to overcome a fear. A child might have a fear of the dark, or a fear of what's in the closet. And we teach them that there is nothing to be afraid of with continual coaching and affirmation until they are relieved of the fear to the point of comfort.
So the fear of being alone and unloved, for me is the same process. I try to teach myself that there is nothing to fear in being alone and that I am never unloved.
I think most DB'ers at some point get really good at recognizing emotions as they come up. Especially when they begin to make us uncomfortable. And if the rest of you are anything like me, I've instinctively reached the point where I vocalize the emotion to myself and ask "why am I feeling this right now?" The process of stepping outside of feeling and be my own best friend, my own sounding board, my own therapist.
If a dear friend came to me with this emotion, hurdle, anxiety, what would I say to them? How would I try to help them process? What would I say to another DB'er on the board? How would I coach someone I loved in this moment? How am I going to teach and love ME in this moment?
This is how I deal with a lot of my fears or worries, not just the one of ending up alone. It's not always easy to disengage the emotion and analyze it, but with practice it's gotten easier and the rough waves don't stay around as long. Critical thinking has a way of taking away the power of desperation and gives me strength. And the good new is... critical thinking can be taught.
I hope this makes some kind of sense to you. Everyone's process is going to be different, but for me, it's been working. I "spin" less and less these days.
Awesome answer... I was curious. I like reading what other people do because it may work better than what I am trying
thanks.
I like to journal about my feelings and fears. If I write them down it is easier for me to look at them with a detached emotion and be able to process those emotions and feelings. I also have found a few trust worthy people that I can share those fears with, who would have thought I could share my feelings and not been seen as weak. Ya that's a guy thing I think.
What is up with me and the space I am renting the xOW in my head lately????
It's kind of driving me nuts. I can't quite pinpoint what the real issue is. It's got to be some kind of of insecurity in regards to my W being home.
In 6 days my W will have been home for 3 months. The exact amount of time she lived with xOW. (although we were separated for almost 9 months total.) I've kind of been focused on that too... not sure if they are related.
But I digress, xOW... see!... she is even getting her own post on my DB thread. LOL! It's been quiet on the xOW front. Seemingly too quiet... I think I was expecting more pursuit of my W by xOW. Maybe I'm fearful of putting my guard down?
I told my W the other day that I feel like I'm falling into a more trusting station with her and that it scares me and makes me feel vulnerable. About the same time that this started to happen... xOW thoughts/memories/comparisons began again.
Originally I thought it might be a trigger because my W went back to work and I was off to pick her up at the airport... like old times... the times where she was working out of town with xOW and in an affair for years (they no longer work for the same company.) But I feel like it's deeper than just that...
What do you all think? For those of you that know my sitch pretty well?... I've got to find the connection and fear that is prompting me to revisit this habit so far into my journey.
Am I stopping myself from getting too comfortable with W being home? Keeping some pain nice and fresh so I don't have to experience the trauma of a new wound if it all falls to sh*t?
Just read this today and thought of you. Tiny buddha how to be hurt less by so called evil people. Google is your friend!
Thought of you!
And yes I did think of you twice.
RT,
I have this massive headache from a business trip and I'm looking at a pillow longingly to rest my head right at this moment. But first things first....
Would you feel better if I told you that I still do think about Ms. Wonka's OW from time to time. My thoughts center around two main themes:
1) Landing a right hook squarely on the OW's jaw
2) What is it about the OW that is "better" than me?
When our spouses engage in an A with the OW/OM, it crosses way more than just a line...not that yellow crime tape! Although it isn't too different from that! It is a knife through our hearts knowing that they shared intimacies with the OW, shared their bodies with the OW, mooning over each other, etc. Then what does these above behaviors have anything to do with us? Exactly.
Nothing. Yet in our mind....it feels as if we really are not good enough for our spouses so this "stinking thinking" batters our self-confidence to a point where there's a bright, neon pink "L" blinking on and on right on our foreheads. Not a fun place to be one way or the other.
So our fears of any contact with xOW dredges all of that "yucky" stuff and our insecurities so we seek reassurance from our spouses that we are still quite the catch to them. Silly, vicious cycle to be sure. That is until we can trust and VERIFY that our spouses's actions line up with their words. Then perhaps we can relax and feel safe emotionally with our spouses. Right now, I think you do not feel safe with your W--emotionally.
Isn't this what you're experiencing lately, RT?
Just read this today and thought of you. Tiny buddha how to be hurt less by so called evil people. Google is your friend!
Thought of you!
Thanks Bug! Just read it... I liked it. I'm soooo not that zen about my "monster" yet, but it's a nice perspective to embrace and try to integrate into my thinking.
You're a good one!
I hope you feel better Wonks! Thanks for spending time with me today in my journey.
Would you feel better if I told you that I still do think about Ms. Wonka's OW from time to time.
^^^ ummm NO! LOL!!! I do not want to think about her in a week let alone years.
Seriously... yes it does. It shows me I'm not as stuck as I'm feeling on it. It just is what it is. And I am not alone.
My thoughts center around two main themes:
1) Landing a right hook squarely on the OW's jaw
2) What is it about the OW that is "better" than me?
^^^ #1
I see mine more as an upper cut with the left before the right knocks her teeth out.
ROFL!!! Bug is gonna get me! This is not a tiny buddha way of thinking!
My #2 is more like... "I want W to tell me OW was not "better" than me." It's one of the last needs for external validation that I am having trouble releasing.
... our insecurities so we seek reassurance from our spouses that we are still quite the catch to them. Silly, vicious cycle to be sure. That is until we can trust and VERIFY that our spouses's actions line up with their words. Then perhaps we can relax and feel safe emotionally with our spouses. Right now, I think you do not feel safe with your W--emotionally.
Isn't this what you're experiencing lately, RT?
I think I am definitely craving reassurances from her right now. And you are right. I don't feel I am completely safe emotionally with her. I am so programmed (by myself) to not "Beg, Plead, Cry, or Pursue", that I am not very free with all of my emotions. I am showing her love and acceptance and support, but I am not showing her the biggest insecurity and fears... just pieces of them. I don't trust her with them. I am afraid she will hurt me. I'm afraid she has no idea the depth of pain that I felt and as soon as she sees the truth of it, she would run the other way from her own guilt and shame. And at the deepest level, I'm afraid she will not validate that pain to my satisfaction. It's almost like a self-imposed limbo. Not letting her in all the way but acting like I am. And let's face it, she more or less has told me she's not ready to examine "me" with me anyway... that's MC territory and she has asked for IC time. So no, I don't trust her with my pain. Not until she does and says so much more.
In my marriage, before the betrayal of my life, I would never have felt this way. I was so safe with my W, or so I thought. I shared everything with her... or so I thought. But then again, would my marriage be in this mini-series if really had?!?!? I wonder...
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Wouldn't be great if we could all just blame them for everything and run off into the narcissistic, wild blue yonder, flying somewhere over the rainbow on a bottle of gin? But Noooooo. We don't do that. We have to examine ourselves and try to expand and grow ourselves.
Stinkin' grown-ups.
Gin? Isn't that the best you can come up with, RT??!! What about my famous silky smooth amaretto??!
Gin seemed more appropriate... in a "fear of being alone, about to turn 40, where can I buy a 27 cats, denial" kind of way! Ha!
Amaretto is for the fire pit of friends... when I'm totally sure I'm not driving.
And beer... that's football. Dang Panthers. Crushed my upcoming Superbowl party oufit.
Good thinking...I'll give you that.
And for the record, I'm mighty pleased that my Pats are now one game away from the Super Bowl! It's now Manning vs. Brady. Shhhh...don't tell Bets!!
Oooh! A DB Bowl! Love it! When it's not my team... as a girlie girl... I root for the best outfit in my closet... sorry Manning. I look good in blue. Besides... Denver attire is too awfully close to Clemson colors and I... live and die Gamecocks!
Bug is gonna get me! This is not a tiny buddha way of thinking!
Actually it is. You can think whatever you want and then...let it go.
Judge nothing of your thoughts-that's where we get hooked.
The thoughts are fine if they are seen as transparent, but we get so caught up judging thoughts as right or wrong, for and against, yes and no, needing it to be this way and not that way. And even that might be okay except that is accompanied by strong, strong emotions. So we just start ballooning out more and more. With this grasping onto thoughts we just get more caught, more and more hooked. All of us. Every single one of us
Pema Chodron
Love Pema. Needgrace enlightened me with her teachings. "Let it go"... If I'm revisiting the thoughts is it truly let go? That's my struggle Bug. At least with xOW.
OK... on the table... I have a fear that my own work and growth is not as genuine as I project it when I revisit these hurdles. I think, "I thought I was past that. Am I bullish*tying myself?"
It seems when I think I've processed three steps ahead, sometimes, like with revisiting xOW obsessing, I fall back... like a really bad "Life" game of "Sorry" ( if anyone remembers board games!).
I think I'm being hard on myself and "expecting" my W to make me feel better.
I know better.... see what I mean?
Journal:
W came home from a one day trip on a flight at almost midnight last night. She called me from the airport when she arrived. She was crying. It had been a tough day on her... more than her post-op body could handle. I asked her if she needed me to come get her. She said no through her tears. She would drive herself.
She has been honest in the past that she resented that when she came home from a trip that she felt she had to do everything around the house and I didn't help her or take care of her when she was exhausted. I am trying to 180 on this and I did so last night.
I made sure her business suit was cleaned and ready for tomorrow, I made her favorite pasta dinner, had her jammies by the bed and some ice water on her night stand. When she walked in the door so very late she was still tearful and went to the restroom. I told her to drop her clothes in the bathroom and I would take care of them and to crawl in the bed while I got her dinner. I brought her the pasta and a night cap, along with everything she needed to ice her knees.
I sat up with her while she ate and sniffled, by the second helping of pasta, some ice for her pain and a second night cap... she was calm and feeling better. It was fine for me to kiss goodnight and hit the pillow, so I did.
But after I turned over leaving her to watch tv and continue to decompress, I felt her hand move under the blanket to touch my back. She rubbed and rubbed very sweetly for quite some time... and that's the last thing I remember.
It was perfect.
The hurdle... Intimacy. Specifically sex. The topic will have to be dealt with soon. W came back home almost 3 months ago. At the time she was in a lot of physical pain (prior to surgery) so I got a hall pass on the question of do we?, don't we?, am I ready?, will she think of xOW?
It was really kind of nice to not have that issue and to just reconnect as friends, to kiss, touch, hug, cuddle... I know it's as fast as I wanted to go and W may have felt the same way, but we got to avoid the discussion because her pain was prevalent.
1.5 months into her return she had surgery. Hall pass number 2. Intense pain and rehabilitation. ML was the furthest thing from her mind and I was tired as h*ll taking care of her and EVERYTHING else!
But now, the rehab is paying off and she is getting better. She still has pain and discomfort at night and usually cries most nights (sometimes just feeling sorry for herself and frustrated and how long the process is to rehab) so it hasn't been an issue to deal with yet. No one has made advances and no one has been rejected.
But I have to say, I have some fear on this. So I am trying to process some stuff now, before "it".
W and I are more physical touch and word expressive of love than even the year before BD (she was in an A and I didn't know... but I did know something was wrong.) Last night a commercial came on TV about a sexual dysfunction medication and it made us laugh for some reason (sorry guys... no harm intended
) I took the light moment to ask, " What do you think about sex? Where on you on it?" She answered, "Honestly, I don't." I waited a few seconds longer just to see if she had anything else to say and I asked her, "Are you masturbating?" she answered, "I thought about it last week, but I didn't. I just don't."
The air in the space between us as we lay there next to each other just changed. Not tension, not negative.. but definitely different and weird... but not uncomfortable. So I left it at that and backed off. It didn't feel like she wanted to talk on that subject. It was late, we'd had a long day and I thought it best to do some personal processing on it before I approached the subject with her again in the future.
For the record, the last time we ML was while she was on walkabout and we were S but before she moved in with xOW. So that puts us at about 6 months.
So I know it's a critical issue that needs to be tended to before it takes on a monster role and becomes a bigger problem than I think our reconciliation efforts need, but I'm not sure where to start, what I think, or how to proceed.
She will recover from her surgery soon.
Before you all ask (and I'm hoping you will feel comfortable enough as my friends to help me process this... I understand if you don't.):
1- Yes. I want to. (now. but when she first came home would have been too soon for me. I needed to build more trust)
2- I am afraid she doesn't.
3- I fear rejection if I make the first move.
4- I am afraid she will compare me to xOW. (big time fear)
5- I have some mind movies of her and xOW that I struggle with when I start to think about ML and I am afraid they will plague me when I am with my W.
Whew! Heavy stuff this mornin' from RT!
RT,
Intimacy. Sex. The World's Most Powerful Potion. Hmmmm....not easy subjects to tackle at all.
Maybe your W has some fears too on this subject. Ask her to put her armor on first before broaching the subject and I'd tell her about your fears about the "movie" with the XOW. I'm wondering if you feel secure and safe enough at this stage to take the first vulnerable step toward intimacy by talking about your fears? How would that aid in the reconnection process?
Being physically intimate through ML requires a certain level of trust for the pair of you. It seems to me that neither pair of you are ready for this phase. Change requires complete honesty which leads to greater cleaning and greater integrity.
This requires you to explore unexplored emotions and expressing unexpressed opinions. Scary, indeed! However, someone's got to take the first step. Most certainly will trigger some intense emotions for both of you.
For me, I do try very, VERY hard to squat the "movie" with Ms. Wonka and the OW out of my head. I think all of this to comes to our feelings of inadequacy in the performance department. Wasn't I good enough of lover to you? Wasn't I sexually liberating enough for you? On and on. You get the picture. I'm wondering if you are having these thoughts of inadequacy as well.
RT, the timing has certainly been bad for you two as far as reestablishing intimacy. If you have the funds I would suggest talking to a sex therapist about this subject, they can give you some pointers on how to wake that up in your W again. The fact that your W isn't pleasuring herself either would seem to indicate that her labido is nonexistent right now, so it's not an issue with you or between the two of you but rather it sounds like it's on her end. Maybe it's just that she's still recovering from the surgery, and if so then perhaps you just need to be patient. But I still think it would be a good idea to talk to a therapist to get an idea of what the road to recovery looks like.
I would think about talking with her but not now. She just had major, major surgery and her body is on overdrive just to heal.
Give it some time and the situation may take care of itself. If not, open a conversation.
AS,
It is not a sexual problem, but timing problem. RT's W just came out of surgery and the last thing on her mind is sex. I am sure you probably felt the same way if you had surgery as well. Me too. It is simple as that.
The responses I gave to RT above was to aid her in seeking solutions in the intimacy department so to give her time to digest and be ready to approach W at the right time should she elect that option.
Thanks friends. I've been away a few days. Doing a lot of thinking. I have a tendency to process and move much faster than my W. But sometimes I can barrel through it and it's good for me to slow down.
Everyone it right. Slow down. I think I've made it clear to W that I love and still desire her. That is all I need to do right now. I think there will come a time for more conversation, but I'm giving myself permission not to stress about it right now.
And.... remember when I said things were too quiet? Well, I'm still psychic. xOW sent and email. A begging, pleading, threat.
The email included the following:
1- How are you rehabbing?
2- I love you
3- I miss you
4- A chinese zodiac of their signs "proving" they were meant to be together
5- A statement that she "knew they were meant to be together" and "didn't understand why W can't see that"
6- A statement that she is going to move on. She is not waiting for W much longer.
(number 6 ultimatum has been given before... when they had contact during W's post-surgery hospital stay)
So W... responds and engages in an email and then text message conversation that turns decidedly angry.
xOW attacks W with things like, "You lied to me. Everything you ever told me was a lie." and "I think you never intended to divorce RT, you knew the whole time you were going back to her.", etc..., etc...
Ending in the W saying don't contact me again and the xOW saying "*F* you... you don't contact me again"
AND SO.... that's all fine and well BUT:
W didn't disclose the contact to me for 5 days. When she did I uncovered that she lied to me. Remember when I asked her if she'd had contact?... well she had... all of this. And by the time I was brought in the loop, some messages and emails had been deleted leaving gaps in the conversation.
So W and I had a talk about it:
- she "didn't want to hurt me"
- I told her she did simply by lying and that I do not need her to protect me from xOW communications.
- I also told her that if she was not finished with that relationship and still felt the need to communicate with her that I was strong and could handle that. She could leave again if she wanted.
W cried. And cried. And cried. She was sorry. And sorry. And sorry. She verbally bet herself up.
Later that night she sat down in front of me and said she had some things she needed to say. She told me how much she loved me. She told me how proud of me she was. She thanked me for being strong and for being there for her when she didn't deserve it. She told me she had blocked xOW from her I-chat and facetime. (hmmm.. but not FB and phone?... but then again, I have access to those, she might be thinking) She apologized for lying and recommitted herself to telling me if xOW contacts her immediately.
She hugged and hugged and then kissed me.
She just seems a mess. xOW sent her into a bit of a drama spin.
Me? After I thanked her and accepted her apology, I started focusing on my schedule for this week. My spring semester starts tomorrow. I've been nursing W and paving the smooth road for her... But she needs to do some of this on her own now. My focus is on my horizon... and I am just fine!
RT, wow. Just wow!
I admire you sooooo much. For lots of things, but today for the ability you have to be understanding and kind to your W, and at the same time the strength and self worth to know and stand up for what you need.
I also told her that if she was not finished with that relationship and still felt the need to communicate with her that I was strong and could handle that. She could leave again if she wanted.
This blew me away!!
Wow. You weren't messing around when you decided to be the spouse that your W would be a fool to leave.
[quote]
It is not a sexual problem, but timing problem.
I never said it was, I just suggested talking to a therapist to discuss how to wake the sexual feelings up again when the timing is right. I think they're in danger of getting stuck in the friend zone, and when that happens it can be really difficult to reestablish intimacy.
RT, nice work on that convo, over and over again you've shown how it's possible to stand firm on your boundaries while still lovingly validating!
RT,
Catching up on your thread.
First - Great job on the 180. Keep it up. She will be hesitant to believe those changes so keep it consistent and be patient. Keep your motives pure.. that you are loving her better and being a being RT by making those changes.
As for the topic of sex - boy that's a tough one.
So who is the dominant one in your relationship? Even if it's 50/50, there is always someone in a lesbian relationship who is more of the alpha. Is that you? or wife?
Not that it really matters as I think either way you can take the first step.
Remember - confidence is sexy. Deal with the fears of rejection and go for it. Know that her response (if negative) has absolutely NOTHING to do with you.. only where she is in her journey.
If there is anything I have learned this journey is how much I let my Ex's BS and her fears dictated my self-worth. I could have totally validated her fears without believing them.
You are awesome regardless of what your wife thinks.
You are attractive regardless of what your wife thinks
You are strong regardless of what your wife thinks.
Make them your truth. Believe them to your core... and I think the intimacy problem WILL change.
Step boldly
((( )))
Thank Mel! Happy Monday!
AS, I agree with you. I'm an anxious about the friend zone too. W's much needed surgery hasn't been the sexiest thing to ever happen to us! I will continue to keep my eye on the issue.
Val! So glad to hear from you! To answer the question: W was more dominant. And I think it's a good question and flows into the "friend zone" danger that AS brought up.
As I sit here and think about it, W was always more dominant in respect to initiation. Now, xOW... super dominant. I know her and her ex-W well enough to have figured that out. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's one of the things my W was attracted to in the A. She hasn't stated as much (I'm not mind-reading.. really... just trying to examine), but I believe it's a valid possibility that I need to be prepared to hear and 180 on for W if she needs that.
The sex issue/non-issue is it's own entity. I'll figure it out. I'm really just going to have to talk openly with her at a later date. But the lying... ugghhhh! Boundary violation.
W said something that in the moment, I took as cheating spouse justification spew, so I ignored it, but I have been sitting with it and contemplating it's validity in weening off an affair:
She said, (paraphrased) 'I know in the past I have had a huge problem lying to you. And I did this time too, but I have been really honest and the one time I mess up I get caught. Now I feel like you're not going to believe me ever again...
(And here's the thing I (RT) am questioning...)she continued with, 'I have lied to both of you for so long it's habit in my communication. Just like you said we need to be more clear and empathetic when we communicate, I have to turn off this lying reaction and it's been hard.'
A lot of it sounds like WAS excuse/justification/fear of being caught... but the last part about habit and lying for so long (remembering the length of the A), that I'm curious if there is validity to it as part of W learning to trust me with her truth again... as odd as that sounds. She had her own fears while in her A. She even stated the fears of me finding out and losing me. So the knee-jerk, affair condition habit to lie to me is signaling that W is afraid... of something. But what?
A- the A is still on underground
B- that her truth (whatever that is) will hurt me
C- she likes cake. And we know she does! I may rename her Betty... (Crocker)
And.... remember when I said things were too quiet? Well, I'm still psychic.
Perhaps you do have a sixth sense. Might want to explore that.
4- A chinese zodiac of their signs "proving" they were meant to be together
Take it from a Chinese.
I'm not sure if she's done complete compatibility chart reading for time, day, month and year. It would not be correct if any one of the parameters are missing.
Anyway, my XW and I have our charts read and it shows complete mismatch. The master who have interpreted our charts have only one comment when we showed our disappointment.
Matched charts is like driving a sports car. One will have a good head start but will crash if one is not careful.
A bad match is like driving a run-down car. If one carefully drives it, his/her destination will be reached eventually.
It boils down to 'WORK'.
A bad match means more hard work!
Hi Planet, thanks for stopping by! Interesting info about the zodiac. No... xOW didn't include all of that seemingly important information to the Chinese zodiac charting... I think the most important thing from the exchange is that xOW is mad, desperate, "begging" and "pleading"... so it's safe to say she is NOT a DB'er! LOL!!!
Patience for my W's fog to completely disappear and a strong focus on myself are on the top of my list for me right now.
xOW can can bring the drama... I'm the wife. Safe, stable and secure.
Blech, XOW seems a bit unstable. Did you know her before? Might she drag this on forever?
You, however, are awesome.
Hiya Bug! Yes. xOW and my wife have known each other for 17 years...(funny how it took them soooo long to figure out they were meant to be together. ROFL!) So xOW was a friend of mine too. I met her and a few months after I met my W, 13 years ago. She was close enough of a friend that we had our own "phone calls" and "pictures" together. People always say the OW or the AP didn't break any vows... don't be angry at them. But I'm the luckiest girl in the world! My W's AP was my friend, whom aside from my marriage, woman to woman, friend to friend, hurt me very deeply.
But to answer your question... Yup! She might drag this on forever... or try to. She HATES to "lose." She tries very hard to be the most desirable woman in the room. And remember I knew her... well... I guess that's the only plus side. I know what I'm up against. The Art of War. LOL!!!
I also know her well enough to anticipate her next move... jealousy. I predict that she (xOW) will have a new paramour within the next 60 days and attempt to evoke a response from my W. If she does... Perfect!
So as for me: I just read all of the syllabus' for my three courses this semester. Oh boy! I'm busy! But I'm so excited!!!
RT,
Unfortunately, XOWs will try to suck the spouse back into the affair because they need that drug and just for competition's sake. Silly girls!
Stay true to your course and you'll ace Wife 901!
Well... we had an argument last night. hmmph.
I picked W up from airport. Happy, happy, joy, joy, love, love, missed you... let's go to dinner! Yay for us.
On the drive, W wants to know if I put her BFF (who has always supported me) up to contacting her. "Nope". Of course I talk to her, of course she asks how W is doing, but I'm tired of being in the middle. Ya know what... call her yourself. So BFF did. She reached out and has been texting W trying to reconnect. GREAT! But W is resentful and holding a grudge that BFF "abandonded" her when W ran away with xOW.
So none of this is relevant to me... I'm giving them space to figure out there own relationship except that BFF is going on my birthday/vacation trip with me and my family. W has reservations about going because she hasn't mended relationship with BFF... and only started to with my family.
To make a long story short. She wanted to make going or not going on my 40th birthday vacation about her feelings and fears and I wanted to make it about me because it's my birthday and only I matter. (selfish me, hello! how have you been?)
Wham bam, a whole lotta "talking" and not much listening with some zingers from me... I lost my patience. "When are you going to realize that it's not just about you and your guilt and pain? A lot of people have been hurt by this whole situation."
Yowza.
But on the bright side... HA!... seriously... we recovered quickly thanks mostly to my W. She never used to let go of the "bone" in a dog fight, but she lowered her voice, looked me in the eyes (lovin' that! she does it all the time now. I missed looking into her eyes.) and said that she didn't want to fight, let's have a nice dinner together and I missed you.
We did. had a nice diner that is. Went home, crawled into bed. She kissed me deeply. I read for one of my classes while she, very tired from traveling, fell asleep.
This morning, although she didn't have to, she woke up with me to have coffee, she laid across my lap seeking physical touch that I gave her and we are ok.
Look at that. We can argue and not fall apart.
I was afraid of that during these early months of trying to reconcile. She's getting stronger. So am I.
RT,
Sometimes you've just got to let 'er rip! That is what a healthy marriage is all about. It is the strength of a marriage that the pair of you can recover from an argument and move on with daily life stuff instead of getting mired in it.
Nicely done!
Now that's what I'm talkin' about!
Thanks Wonka. I have been "protecting" her from some of my more negative feelings. It's been a choice. To allow her the time and space (while at home) that she has asked for to do some personal work.
As long as I'm feeling ok and not stuffing, I'm ok with it. For now. I like saying "for now"... I am totally allowed to change my mind and that's ok too. Love me some Me!
I have been examining my part in the spat last night. Fear based... always is isn't it? I'm afraid that because she has not committed to my trip (in March) that it somehow is a reflection on her commitment to our marriage, it's reconciliation and that she might leave again.
I am afraid that my W, if she goes again, has been using me.
That feels pretty good... to at least pinpoint a fear. I think I'm pretty dead-on with this one. So I know where to start from in getting through it... Everything is about trust for me.
I don't think my needs are being met in reference to assurances of her motives. I could just be feeling particularly needy after our first "real" argument since she came home.
I'll sit with it. Thoughts welcome.
This morning DB me had a little confrontation Cray-Cray-Crazy me!
Yesterday was a great day in the normal life of me and W. I got home from work, did some yard work, she did some housework, we had pasta for dinner and she fell asleep next to me while I read for my Philosophy class late into the night.
This morning we both had to get up early. We shared coffee in bed, shared my tablet to giggle at some things on social media, talked about our days... she flies out tonight for work. My older sis is coming to hang out this weekend and bringing a friend. My W said, "I love "big sister"." I said that was sweet. She said "I do. She's a really good person and a great mom. I love her. I do." Now W is crying just a little. (my big sister was in the house the day my W packed up and left to move in with xOW.... it was rough to say the least!)
So here comes the looney toons... Just as we were getting in the car to carpool to work/appts... I noticed my W's left ring finger had a normal everyday ring on it.. Let me see if I can type all of this as fast as I thought it:
90 Seconds in My Mind...
"I wonder when she put that ring on did she think about her wedding ring?"
"When are we going to talk about the rings?"
"If she was committed to the marriage again she would be wearing it."
"I'm going to ask her."
"No your not."
"I want to know what she's thinking. I'll just be non-chalant."
"Bad idea. Don't do it. Wrong time. Wrong place."
"but..."
"NO! Pressure scares her... back off.'
"But..."
"NO! Not now. It will end badly. You will ruin the morning and she is leaving today."
"Bu..."
"I said NO!"
Whew.... Clarity: 1 Crazy:0
And Team "I Got This" progresses one step further in the tournament. (and the crowd goes wild.... Raaahhh rahhhhhh rahhhh!)
Ohhhh isn't it great tho when you actually recognize those triggers and are able to talk yourself off the ledge!
This has me smiling to start the day.
LOL! Awesome stuff RT, as long as you don't start saying it out loud by accident
RT that post Was amazing . I do that stuff in my head every day. Lmao
By far the best thing I've read all day...omfg!!!
I have those convos a lot....
Listen, about the rings...as you know I tossed my wedding ring in the ocean last year ( ya...whatevs...wasn't always this zen). Sometimes I wear a gorgeous set H gave me that actually feels more like love...but that's not the point.
The point is I never ever wear them on my wedding finger cause that one is sacred. The fact W is speaks a lot to me without saying one word.
What sayeth you ?
Ty for your post. I know he cares. I know he loves me. But if he can't fix him, it's really a moo point ( remember Joey in " friends"? OMG that made me laugh)
Hmmmmm???? I don't know what I sayeth. I thinketh you are saying that because W is wearing a plain old ring on her wedding finger that it's a negative or bad sign? Sorry Ruby... I'm not getting what you are trying to tell me. HELP!
But otherwise... Heeeeeeeeey! I have been gone a week and no one sent a search party. What if I had won the lottery? Seriously though, busy with school and I live in the south... ice-pocolypse, the past few days.
My W was stuck out of town because of the weather so I haven't seen her in what? a week? She comes home tomorrow and I am here for one night then Sat. I am traveling over night without W to go to her BFF's (also my super friend) birthday party. I have reservations... it's just awkward. But I can't make their issues, my issues. So I am off to celebrate my friend. (ringing the GAL bell)
The day I get home W leaves for ANOTHER week. Hopefully this will be the last long trip for a while! Somebody's gotta work on this M sooner or later!
We talk and text everyday she's away. I let her chase me most of the time. (180) But I also like to validate her every couple of days with a random "missing you" or some xoxo's.
I'm ready for her to be at home though. I miss her terribly. BUT... I am ok. It seems I learned to be alone and I'm good at it.
It's a different dynamic for both of us this time around. We don't contact because we think we are supposed to, and we don't stay on the phone longer that we want to. I feel a sense that we are "here" for each other, but we are missing that messy little co-dependent factor to our communication when she is away now. It just feels better.
And now... my friend is turning 50. Any ideas on absolute, total, hilarious gifts or pranks for 50????? We are super close so ANYthing goes!
RT,
I recall that when one of my former boss turned 50, we prepared a fun basket filled with silly stuff like Preparation-H, bedpan, Maalox, etc.
A search party is officially on now!!! I have my miner's hat with the light switched on high beam alongside with Bug, Ruby, PS, Paul, AS & others marching forward in a semi-circle calling out "RT, come on out..you're sorely missed at the fire pit area."
Or...maybe...you're too busy making fireworks with W...
Heaving 10 bags filled with Benjamins and plonking them in the room
Ringing the huge gold glitter DB Gong dangling on a pole
Everybody...may I please have your attention...
I have a million-dollar reward for the best bounty hunter who can bring back RT in one piece within the next 24-hours or the reward is null & void. Dog, you don't count...go back to your TLC tv program.
Are we clear? Good. Let's begin now! pushing the button on the klaxon
LOLOLOLOL!!!!! Wonka you are a nut! I am here. I went into crazy busy school mode. I had a Child and Adolescent Development exam... 100/100! Plus I have been working on a big Leadership Conference for work. I went to hang out with my friends out of town. Oh... and I'm piecing. Well... pre-piecing. Is there such a thing? I don't now why I'm unsure. But I am. Probably because I keep waiting on the other shoe to drop. If ya know what I mean.
So update: Things are good with W. Since I posted last, we had a heart to heart. It was good because I was able to vocalize some of the things that have been weighing heavy on my mind. There were 3. Sex. Fear of her leaving again. And vocalizing my need for more reassurance from her from time to time and I would like her to ask me how I'm doing and what I'm feeling occasionally.
She was receptive. She cried a lot. So did I. But we were able to talk and feel heard, and we came out of the intensity of the conversation pretty easily and flowed into a great day of watching a marathon of one of her favorite shows, cooking, eating and cuddling. It was really nice.
She opened up about missing xAP from time to time. She still thinks about her and misses "hanging out" with her. I asked her if she thinks about contacting her and she said yes. I asked her why she doesn't and she said, "Because I know that you don't want me to and I know it's not healthy for anyone."
That's a pretty honest answer I suppose, but I'm not controlling her so it's interesting how she led the answer.
It's slow going. SLOOOOOOOW going. Why the heck does hacking through all this mess take so long? But I will leave you with the thoughts I had during my morning prayer in the shower (yes.. I talk out loud to the Big Guy in the shower.
) It was this...
"I hate Monday. I just want to stay here with W again all day. Responsibility bites the big one. OK wait. What am I grateful for? I am grateful that 5 months ago, a year ago... I was still in this shower on Monday mornings, getting ready to go to work, go to school, but my W was not snuggled up cozily in the bed while I put on my make-up. I am grateful that she is in there snoozing and that when I go to pour my cup of coffee I will be pouring two and I will get a good morning kiss while I curl up with my hot cup o' joe in the new, fluffy bathrobe she surprised me with a couple of weeks ago. Thanks God. For giving me the strength to come this far. I still need you."
Happy Monday my friends. Your spouse's may not be home yet, or things might not be the brightest in your life these days, but if you take a moment to look back and see how far you've come, how strong you are now compared to "then"... you just might see what I mean. ((((huuuuuuuug!)))
And Wonka.... I found myself (in more ways than one!)... where's my check?
Journal: So I remember. So I can come back on rough days of reconciliation, read and reflect...
Super tired last night. Worked all day, did chores at home, made dinner, started reading for school and fell asleep. W cleaned the kitchen, did my laundry, walked the dogs (even though it was my night) and set the coffee on a timer for me... all without waking me. I woke up this morning rested, happy, and with my W spooned behind me.
RT, Keep breathing. Stay patient. Slow Down. You're doing a really good job at life. Love you, RT
RT,
And Wonka.... I found myself (in more ways than one!)... where's my check? Hey..right there...you're cheating! No dice. Or are you really talking about 'finding' yourself.
It is great to see that you and W were able to talk things over without falling apart. To me, you two are getting stronger with each passing week. Clearing the air and learning for your mistakes are what will strengthen your marital bond.
She opened up about missing xAP from time to time. She still thinks about her and misses "hanging out" with her. I asked her if she thinks about contacting her and she said yes. I asked her why she doesn't and she said, "Because I know that you don't want me to and I know it's not healthy for anyone."I think it's obvious that W's given some thought about the XOW and how she played a part in this messy process. Also a real growth for recognizing that it wasn't healthy for everyone involved. Good for her!
Keep up with your thoughts of gratitude. For me, when I go to bed, I jot off in my head the things I'm grateful for and how my day went. Both small and large things. Sometimes during the day I talk to the angels and God to keep the line of communication open. At times, I wonder if I do hear them at all! LOL!
Good luck on HVD!
Thank Wonkster! (BTW...You make me laaaaauuuuggggh!
)
So I sent the W a little text and asked her out to lunch. She accepted. I made it flirtatious, like a first date kind of thing. I wanted to thank her for last night. It was nice... and I just got back from lunch.
We were talking about our mornings and plans for the week and I asked her simply, "So do you want to go out or stay in for Friday?"
W: What's Friday?
Me: hahaha! Valentine's Day
W: (eyes wide open, deer in head lights, uh-oh, oops, if I smile really big RT will think I'm cute because I genuinely had no idea)... uuuummm... I don't know. (laughing) What would you like to do?
Me: I'm easy. Why don't we just stay in. Dinner & a movie. (thinking about the advice on my Valentine's Day thread)
W: Why don't we go see our movie? (she has said she wants to see a particular movie, I agreed it sounded like a good one... now it's "our" movie. hmmmmmm
)
Me: OK!
W picks up her phone, chooses a theater that we love, it doesn't have the movie playing. She finds it at another theater and we agree to go. We ho-hum that this theather doesn't serve dinner and drinks like the other and W says...
W: We can sneak it in!?!
Me: (absolute 180 on this one...) OK!!! We'll be bad!
And we laugh that at our ages, we will be sneaking in a cocktails like teenagers.
Then she suggested a restaurant for dinner afterwards... one we both love nearby.
Effort from her, more spontaneity from me to follow her lead, and we shall see...
If I get kicked out of this movie theater at almost 40 because I have a flask of snippy in my pocket, well... what a new memory we will have!
May not be such a bad V-Day after all.
So happy for you RT, Keep those healthy bits of communication going!
Effort from her, more spontaneity from me to follow her lead, and we shall see...
If I get kicked out of this movie theater at almost 40 because I have a flask of snippy in my pocket, well... what a new memory we will have!
May not be such a bad V-Day after all.
RT - This made me smile
Good motivation to keep moving on this journey. You are doing great!!
wella, wella, wella, woo... "tell me more, tell me more, did ya get very far? tell me more, tell me more, like does he have a car?" So... I can sing all the lyrics to Grease, in chronological order (really). It's going to be my talent in the DB Pageant. Don't hate... you KNOW you are singing along now.
And... I put my wedding ring back on. There. I did it. Here's why: Talking to my Aunt's, they reminded me that my ring is a symbol of my commitment to my W and our marriage. How simple is that? So, I put 'er on. Didn't make a deal of it to my W, just did it. Feel good about it. Not over thinking it.
Yesterday, good. Easy Peasy. W has seemed a little funky, I asked her if she was feeling ok... physically... she said yes. I won't press, but something was on her mind last night. Less affectionate, less engaged, REALLY quiet. So I read all night and let her swim around in her head with very little interruption from me.
I read on an infidelity blog last week... when asked by a reader, how do you know if the cheating spouse is truly remorseful?
The answer was, "Real remorse makes their own therapy appointments..." etc...
I thought... hmmmm, I think agree with that. Then I did a little RT, crazy train loop in my head on it. 'W hasn't been to IC since she had her surgery.' BUT 'she was rehabbing' BUT 'she can now...' BUT 'she said she is working too much to make an appointment' BUT 'I don't believe her' BUT 'Excuses' BUT, BUT, BUT...
Yesterday at lunch W asked me if we could go to lunch today at 1:30, that since her work trip was cancelled due to weather, she called her IC and made an appointment for today at 3.
Take THAT crazy train conductor in my head! Patience. It's such an issue for me.
I'm starting to address the "other shoe will drop" fear of her leaving again in my head. I'm sorting my thoughts on it and sitting with some emotions to make sense of them and their irrationality vs. rationality. I will post more on it later...
I think it's natural for us to assume the other shoe will drop. Sometimes it is our gut telling us something is off... other times it's our own fears speaking so loudly to convince us that it is a guarantee and we need to flee the situation....
..whatever the reason, the truth is that at any time it IS quite possible the other shoe will drop. That is life and a risk we must take in order to be intimate with others.
Our goal is not to change that truth - only to control how it affects our thoughts and behaviors.
From our situation, we have learned that we our marriage can't define us.. and no person should have the power to dictate our self worth. We learn that although our spouse can make our life more fulfilling, it is completely possible for us to be happy on our own. Happiness is a feeling that comes from within and one that we need to fight for on a daily basis.
We learn to guard our hearts. That although love is still there, so is the pain. Trust was broken and must be rebuilt. We must validate our own fears however be completely aware that how we express those fears impacts our relationships with others.
And finally we now believe that is not guilt and fear that creates true change only grace and love. How we handle situations and how we treat others teaches others how they should treat and handle situations with us in return. This takes time. This takes patience.
You are completely in the driver's seat here RT. How smooth the ride is and how long the journey... I don't know. However it's completely in your hands and girl... you got this.
((( )))
I think it's natural for us to assume the other shoe will drop. Sometimes it is our gut telling us something is off... other times it's our own fears speaking so loudly to convince us that it is a guarantee and we need to flee the situation....
Dead on. Pretty much the stuff I'm sorting through internally now.
We must validate our own fears however be completely aware that how we express those fears impacts our relationships with others.
I am very aware. And you are right. So much of what you said is relevant to my current emotional waves. I'm glad you stopped by! So, my "other shoe dropping" fear. Here we go:
She's not communicating to "my satisfaction." I've got questions that I have wanted answers to from square one and she's not ready to give them, or simply doesn't have them yet. I don't know.
So as we move along at the agonizing snail pace of whatever it is we are doing, I get aggravated, I get fidgity, and then I feel fear. Which I am recognizing is because I am not in control and have lost focus a bit of mastering that bad habit.
It's tough. I am trying to figure out how to balance my self-care and nurturing with that of paying attention to my W and our relationship... And I haven't figured out how much is too much and where I am lacking. And because I don't have a clear and definitive plan for this stage of my relationship, I am allowing fears to run away with me because I don't feel like I know what I am doing.
Where are the 37 rules for when they WAS comes back to the home? I need those. My map. I feel like I'm out on the road without a map. And all of that translates into this giant "oh no! She's going to bail again. She doesn't really love me. Hurry up and get it over with before I am too invested again and you hurt me more than I am ready to take, " monologue in my head.
That monologue then begins to over-analyze every action or in-action, every word spoken or unsaid by my W and fuels the self-generated fear.
I've been hurt. You all understand. So my control monster thinks..."I didn't see it coming...the first "shoe", so... "I'll see the second one coming, if it does, but only if I am in control. And then... I won't be hurt as deeply as before."
And this is all my problem. Nothing has happened for me to come to this point, other than me.
I'm afraid to trust my W with my heart... and there you have it.
For the record, I've just been using "As If" in situations where I'm unsure or uncomfortable. Like when she is quiet, "As If", when she is pensive, "As If", when she is whatever that doesn't seem to involve me or I'm not invited into her processing... I am trying to be "As-If" and giving her space within our space. I really don't know what else to do.
I had an expectation and I got schooled.
I know my W knows I put my wedding ring back on. I also know that the one time we talked about it she said she wasn't wearing hers because I wasn't. At that point in time she said, "go get them, we'll wear them again." I didn't. I wasn't sure of my feelings on it. Then as a week went by I determined my feelings, which I posted the other day, and put my ring on for me.
I know wife has seen me wearing it, so when she came to pick me up for lunch yesterday prior to her IC session, I immediately scanned her finger for the sparkly, lil' b*tch. And guess what... nope. Not wearing it.
Of course she's not RT! You dingbat. What are you? 3 days post BD? You know better than to set expectations on your fragile, 4 month post-affair, piecing, vulnerable marriage.
Interesting. Changes to the way I approach all of my relationships have developed and grown out of my DB education and processing, but it's never really a course you finish or a test you pass. It's a life commitment to myself. To continue to challenge the way I communicate, the expectations I place on others or set for myself. Critical thinking. I'm really good at it, but I'm human and my heart sometimes runs away with the microphone to karaoke it's way through the day when I'm not looking.
cool post RT! I think I would felt the same. We are only human. you have hopes and expectations. I guess we just have to keep our expectations reasonable and in line with our current life circumstances. It sounds like things are moving along for your in any event. I am happy for you and I hope for your continued success.
I had an expectation and I got schooled.
I know my W knows I put my wedding ring back on. I also know that the one time we talked about it she said she wasn't wearing hers because I wasn't. At that point in time she said, "go get them, we'll wear them again." I didn't. I wasn't sure of my feelings on it. Then as a week went by I determined my feelings, which I posted the other day, and put my ring on for me.
I know wife has seen me wearing it, so when she came to pick me up for lunch yesterday prior to her IC session, I immediately scanned her finger for the sparkly, lil' b*tch. And guess what... nope. Not wearing it.
Of course she's not RT! You dingbat. What are you? 3 days post BD? You know better than to set expectations on your fragile, 4 month post-affair, piecing, vulnerable marriage.
Interesting. Changes to the way I approach all of my relationships have developed and grown out of my DB education and processing, but it's never really a course you finish or a test you pass. It's a life commitment to myself. To continue to challenge the way I communicate, the expectations I place on others or set for myself. Critical thinking. I'm really good at it, but I'm human and my heart sometimes runs away with the microphone to karaoke it's way through the day when I'm not looking.
Being able to have perspective and take a long look at our actions is so valuable.
I said something to my son a few nights ago that seemed completely innocuous on it's surface but it had shade. I was saying it to guilt him a little and he didn't deserve that. My insecurity leaked out.
It's so hard to move from our conditioning, but we'll never do it unless/until we can see ourselves with a critical (as in analysis) but loving, eye.
And as my IC reminds me, these are steps in a process, and it is a process, drop the timeline.
What my W is missing about her xAP.
Friendship
A confidant
Someone who isn't judging her
I've been thinking on these things because in order to move forward, I need to be able to try to meet all of my W's needs again.
So on the way to lunch, I made the simple comment to her that I was glad she was able to see her IC yesterday. I told her that I know she doesn't have a lot of outlets or listening ears in her life at the moment. She readily agreed and it's been difficult for her. I told her that outside of being her W, that I wanted to be here to listen for her. To try to help her sort out her stuff if she needed me and that I would do my best but I would let her know if it was too much at any given time and we would pause. She said thanks.
Ok. fair enough. She knows I am willing to try.
And then....
After shopping and laughing, we were at lunch and the conversation steered into her IC and her therapist, how much she liked her (it's the 4th one she's tried) and this is a good fit, yada, yada, yada, and then W started to opened up with a story about xAP.
In my head, 82 DB'ing 2x4's hit me at once with a resounding "STFU! and listen!"
So I did...
W: Ya know how xAP has always been a little "different" seeking out odd things?
M: ah-hah, I remember
W: Well, do you know what Amago? AmIgo? something like, that therapy is?
M: I don't
W: Well, she made me go to that a few times.
M: What was is like?
W:I have no idea! (laughing)
M:(laughing) Way to be present!
W: I know right?!? (both laughing)
And then we kept talking and I smoothly transitioned the conversation into one about the psychology class I am taking.
Note: Of course now I know she meant Imago Therapy, and I am finding it weirdly and pleasantly amusing that within the 3 months they lived together the xAP became the nagging, fill-in wife that got to see my W uninterested and deflective on a therapists couch. I hope my W threw in the old tried and true "I don't know." At every question asked. LOL!!!
But come on xAP... Imago Therapy for an affair relationship with a married woman? ROFL!!!
What were you thinking? Oh! That your relationship was legit. Nice try.
W just emailed me a funny joke between us.
All in all, Good interactions today. Laying off tonight. Gonna let it be.
And as my IC reminds me, these are steps in a process, and it is a process, drop the timeline.
I know Bug!!! I have got to stop placing "time" expectations on our progress! I asked myself earlier, "Self, how do you even know how long this is supposed to take? You've never healed this type of wound before."
RT,
STFU is a gem, isn't it. When we STFU, our spouses turn on like a faucet and all types of info come streaming right outta their mouths. Your W is trusting you with snippets about XOW and not have you jump down her throat with judgmental rants.
Good job!
I am in a dangerous space. Teetering on a spin. Trying to control and evaluate the intense range of emotions that I am experiencing. In short. It's Valentine's. This morning was good. Coffee and cuddles. This afternoon we were running errands and playing a game... a trivia game. Asking each other different questions. It was cute. Getting to know each other as two completely different and new people from this experience. We were laughing and in the midst of so many wonderful memories from our marriage. My W had just talked about our wedding day. As we were reading the questions back and forth I was also using her phone that she handed me to read the map on google to the location we were headed...
"You've got mail"
The email icon runs across the top of the phone and it's from xAP titled "Goodbye for now"
Wife is a wreck. I am stunned. She starts to admit that they emailed back and forth yesterday. xAP wanted to tell her that her dog has cancer. But of course W has deleted the emails and was "going to tell me."
And after our appt. we sit in the car and she reads the email first then hands me the phone to read it.
xAP giving my W love and sending her on her journey and hopes she can find her way to make the changes to be who she wants to be.... And if my W can never find the strength to break free from whatever it is that is holding her there (with me) that , well then she hopes my W can make the best of where she's at.
Then she included some love poem about henna rings and how they are bound to one another in their hearts.(which my W admits they got henna rings at a party once and it did have a significance to them) Maybe they will find a way to be together in this life and if not, then maybe in another. Oh... and she loves my W.
Cut to... a really long talk. Super long. Tear filled but no fighting. Then I called a moratorium on the subject. We pulled it together and finished our errands. After all... we have a Valentine's date tonight.
Just as we agree to put it behind us, my W's phone gets a text from xAP and W shows it to me. She said, "My dog is gone. He just stopped breathing here at home. No need to respond. I hear you."
We sat there. W wanted to respond. I just sat there. W texted xAP back and said, "I am so sorry to hear."
Right now I feel an overwhelming urge to cry and feeling of hopelessness. Will the A ever really be over? There is so much more that was said between me and wife today but I don't have time or the energy to type it all right now.
I am trying to not react. I am trying to stay in the calm and recover our Valentine's Day.
I'm here on the board to release it. So I can pick it up later and process what it all means to me later.
I am:
Mad
Sad
Angry
Hurt
Aggravated
P*ssed Off
Over it
Done
In love
Married
Confused
Directionless
Tired
I am pausing.
I'm definitely new here so I don't even know if you can trust my advice. What I would do at this point is ground yourself. Some deep breathing techniques and work on calming your emotions due to the loss of control (contact with OW). Your W is still with you right? Show her you're the better option. Calm those emotions that turn you into a train wreck and show confidence.
Perhaps re-establish a boundary of no contact with OW tomorrow after today goes well?
Whenever in doubt, I go back to Sandi2's 37 rules, but it always helps to hear you're doing the right thing.
RT,
Arrrgh! This is one of those fits and starts in the piecing process. It only takes one thing for XOW to contact W and off they go on text o rama.
xAP giving my W love and sending her on her journey and hopes she can find her way to make the changes to be who she wants to be.... And if my W can never find the strength to break free from whatever it is that is holding her there (with me) that , well then she hopes my W can make the best of where she's at.
Then she included some love poem about henna rings and how they are bound to one another in their hearts.(which my W admits they got henna rings at a party once and it did have a significance to them) Maybe they will find a way to be together in this life and if not, then maybe in another. Oh... and she loves my W.Chit! This is one way that the XOW will to do suck back W emotionally by playing on their emotions based on the things they did during the A. It brought back memories of my most recent XGF, not Ms. Wonka. When I look back, I realize that it took me a while to get to the place of where I was completely over XGF. Untangling oneself from the XOW, especially if they've been friends for over 20 years, is a messy and confusing process.
My suggestion is to focus on HVD and let this marinate in your heads for some time before taking any action. Since W has been back home in October, I would think you might want to bring up a strong NC convo with W and state your boundary. To me, I think W does need to make a clean break with the XOW once and for all. Otherwise, W will continually be sucked back in XOW's sphere when she brings up some long ago memory of their A.
You'll need move a bit further in order to arrive at a place to be able to do this emotionally instead of feeling raw and tender. Give this time. I would urge you to ask that W attend a solution-oriented, Gottman based MC therapy for I think you two are wobbly and need some professional help in recovering from the A.
I am so sorry that all of this happened....sort of like mini-bombs going off here and there.
I hope tonight's movie is something that you both will enjoy! HVD to you!
Oh, RT. How horrible. I'm sorry you had that experience.
I know you still have info to give us about your conversation with W after the text, but I don't see any reason xOW's phone number and email can't be blocked so she can't contact. Just throwing my .02
Hang in there, and hopefully you can salvage this day in the end!
Your W is still with you right? Show her you're the better option. Calm those emotions that turn you into a train wreck and show confidence.
Brando, Thank you... you gave me just what I needed before I left for our date... never think that your advice won't be taken whole-heartedly.... the longer we are in the trenches, the easier it is to lose our fundamentals. I read your post at least 3 times before my date. And you helped me...I went ...grounded.
Chit! This is one way that the XOW will to do suck back W emotionally by playing on their emotions based on the things they did during the A.
My suggestion is to focus on HVD and let this marinate in your heads for some time before taking any action. Since W has been back home in October, I would think you might want to bring up a strong NC convo with W and state your boundary. To me, I think W does need to make a clean break with the XOW once and for all. Otherwise, W will continually be sucked back in XOW's sphere when she brings up some long ago memory of their A
So much wisdom... but I'm stuck here. In this. In the unfortunate, angry, devastation of it all. Because I know there would be no xAP contact if my W truly shut it down. And she hasn't. So now... I get to contemplate that. Fearful.
Love you Wonka. I am blessed that you were right there to center me.
BTW... date was great. Really was. Now what?
RT, I have no wisdom for you. Just wanted to come by and give you some hugs!
(((RealityTrip)))
And a whole bunch of admiration, too.
I hope that IC helps your W, so she can eventually become as emotionally evolved as you are.
RT,
BTW... date was great. Really was. Now what?
Glad to hear that your date went really well!
This isn't the time to be a Negative Nellie. In my case, I cannot handle intense conversations one after another. Need some space to process stuff. Wonder if it is the same for you and W?
Enjoy your HVD and post-HVD bliss with W. Then build up from there. There'll be a time to bring up MC with W.
I wouldn't recommend this to newbies.. but I would really sit with this thought.
"What is best for RT right now and how can I show W this in a loving way?"
Boundaries ain't easy...however they are easier after you have created the loving/safe space that the other person can see that you are NOT trying to hurt them or have stopped loving them.
I recently set a boundary with a friend and although it is painful for the both of us... we both know that it is indeed loving at this time. She knows that I'm not trying to hurt her because I have been consistently showing her that I care for her for over a year.
Now that may change and she may become completely angry with me over time or refuse to deal with her sh!t.. so we will see what happens there.
Regardless I had to get to a mental place knowing that the boundary was the ONLY option and I had done everything I could before that. I also had to be willing to accept whatever the consequence of my setting that boundary is.
So whilst I completely agree with Wonka that strong boundaries need to be set.. and soon... I'm also curious if you have done everything you can? And are you also prepared to set the boundary - regardless of consequence? If not... how do you get there?
((( )))
Definitely feel better that my advice helped. I agree with setting the boundary. What helped me try to set a boundary before was the thought that I needed to let my W know I wasn't going to allow this poor behavior without consequences. I am currently living in a separate apartment and filed for D. I didn't *want* to do it, but I did because everything else was unfair to me. You can say "if she loved me, she'd stop" but right now she loves you and in some way loves OW. OW is playing tricks to suck her back in but you W will definitely not see it that way. The best thing you can do for yourself AND your W is to establish a boundary. I wrote things down that are boundaries for me then tried to write it different ways to not sound like a threat. It's tough, but what's even more tough is going through this situation and you've proven you can handle this. So, I know you can handle the boundaries talk. Hope this helps!