HARDENED HEART CONTINUES 6 - 7 MONTHS OF REFLECTI

New thread starts here...

So it has been over a week since my last post..Working is definately theraputic and a relief also. Building from the ground back up again is certainly not easy however. Lots of things to get in the way so I keep working through them one thing at a time.

With Thanksgiving fast approaching like many others I find myself fighting to keep a PMA. Oh, I am trying very hard and no matter the mood of the moment like many others we all end up getting thru it. I am fighting with myself to not reach out with emailing WAW a happy thanksgiving wish. The 2 different trains of thought about staying completely quiet and/or peeking out seem a no win in either case for my sitch.

Some say stay dark as a possible with hope of the WAS getting to miss you. Others say peek out occassionally to not let the WAS forget about you. Two different scenarios with 2 different possible outcomes. Or, no matter what one tries it may all end up the same way anyways.

To the friends of Db who read and comment regularly and even new comments from others on my post I want to just say this. Of late I have truely been doing better with the new move, new job and a real GAL. It's just that being human with all the real emotions and weaknesses we as human beings have sometimes we cant help but to feel down. Especially with these dang holidays so quickly approaching!

So I ask, if there are any 2 x 4's coming please use a soft Santa stick..hehe..

lol No 2x4s from me

did you read the rejoice ministries email today? I think it is probably just what you need to hear at this time

You wonder where the WAS's will be this thanksgiving and will they feel like an alien in amongst other families celebrating together and trying to fit in. Maybe send her an email saying happy thanksgiving, and wish her all the best at this time. I don't know really, see what others say

Yes, I read what Rejoice Ministries had to say about the 3 thanksgivings..lol..thx TTD...Oh I know where she will be, at her sons with her family around her.

Originally Posted By: 2old

With Thanksgiving fast approaching like many others I find myself fighting to keep a PMA.

Our tradition was always to go to MIL's house. Last year W continued that tradition, without me of course. Oh but OM was there! So I did some stuff around the house, went and saw a friend, played around with my motorcycles. I had fun in spite of my sitch. This year I have the kids, so we're going to Houston to visit my mom. My brother and sister are going to meet us there. My mom always puts on a big spread of food at Christmas, but this is the first time we'll be there for Thanksgiving. My kids are really excited about it

So we're making a new tradition! So that's my advice, make plans to do something fun whatever that may be. Go visit other relatives. Go to a movie. Tinker with a project. Don't fret over what you're not doing, focus on what you are doing.

Quote:

I am fighting with myself to not reach out with emailing WAW a happy thanksgiving wish.

Why? Are you afraid she'll say "oh I was this close to reconciling, but now he said Happy Thanksgiving! The nerve! I'll never get back together with this jerk!!"

Seriously, wishing her Happy Thanksgiving is not a deal-breaker! But like I said earlier, do it with no expectations of a response. Do it because it's being true to who you are.

Originally Posted By: TryingToDo180

did you read the rejoice ministries email today?

Thanks for sharing TTD. Holidays are tough and sometimes the little reminders are helpful.

Stay strong!

You're welcome Semper

Glad it helped

I'm glad AS agreed with me about sending her an email to say happy thanksgiving. It's a little reminder to her that you're still thinking of her and wishing her all the best

Isn't thanksgiving also about giving thanks to others? Maybe you could also say to her, as it's thanksgiving I would also like to thank you for being a great mum to our sons and I hope you enjoy your day with them. Just my 2 cents worth

2old, the holiday season does make it hard, but you know you can do it. Get out and get your mind on something else.

Happy Thanksgiving buddy. You are not alone remember that. And I still don't like the 2old thingy. Let's think something else. Maybe 2cool, 2free, 2muchforu, 2oldforme. I like that better > 2oldforme lol

Party at my house all welcome. I don't celebrate Thanksgiving, well Australia doesn't, but all welcome to come and show me what it's all about.
2old, for Xmas I will be going to an orphans xmas party. It has been put on by the bike club for many years. It is a xmas party for those members who don't have family to celebrate with, whatever reason.
Try finding out if something like that is happening in your part of the world.

If only I could afford the plane fare HWA, it'll be great to come to your thanksgiving party

I agree about the change of name as well

I think I need to change my name to something more positive, I was thinking just TTD180

That's a great idea that you have in your part of the world HWA about the orphan's Christmas party. I also suggested to 2old that he could help out at a soup kitchen for the day, he'll get a sense of worth from doing good and have a meal afterwards with the rest of the volunteers

Hey Rick, good to see you are still around. Thanks for popping in my thread....And yea I like the idea of changing my nick...Keep watching for it...lol...

And everyone else who commented I say Thank You!! You guys and gals really are a HUGE help to keep moving forward. So my news for this thread is as follows: I did NOT wish my WAS a happy turkeyday! This is a real 180 for me and I knew she would be expecting one. I figured to throw her a curve ball and stay quiet. Oh I know it really doesn't matter to her probably. However, it has given me a lift for now and in some small way it shows her that her power over the sitch is fading into the sunset...

"Walk like a man"

Well done 2old

Hope you had a good thanksgiving whatever you did

Ditto, well done on not sending a message. It is so hard to make that choice, but once you have decided, it is then a big boost to you.

TTD, thanksgiving was turkey eating and football all day!!
HWA, as of this moment I still realize not contacting is for the best right at the moment. Not only for me but I believe my sich. Not sure about Christmas greeting as yet but something will drive me either way...

You know today I was going through old emails and saw exw correspondces regarding paperwork for the divorce. They go back to 2011. Her responses were so cold. Hard to believe this from someone I had spent more than half my adult life with. We haven't spoken to each other for well over a year. Things get better and the normal feeling comes back lil at a time. Once you get over the need to rescue her. The feelings of guilt diminish. She made the choice. Your choice should be to have a great life. Yes it takes time to not want to reach out. It's a process.

It certainly is a process Rick. But, after 7 plus months of this I am detaching more and more. It is hard to not reach out even still. I just keep putting in my mind though how I now realize there isnt much I can say to budge her from her coldness towards me. She only responds to my statements and absolutely nothing more.

I know I am getting tired of this treatment also. First completely blindsiding me then iceberg me like its the southpole. Yea, I'm tired of it by now...Now that I have relocated been busy and really starting to get a life. And I understand what your saying about spending half your adult life with someone only to be let go so strongly (for lack of a better word).

For myself, I have put this all in God's hands. It will be whatever he chooses it to be anyways.

Putting it in God's hands is all you can do 2old

Just don't take it back off him, lol. Easier said than done I know

[quote=2old)
I know I am getting tired of this treatment also. First completely blindsiding me then iceberg me like its the southpole. Yea, I'm tired of it by now... [/quote]

So true and such a good example.

Well, things have been going well with my new job for the past month. Lots of Christmas parties also...ugh,,,,Anyways, I have been trying to stay dark with WAS for sometime as many of you know. And now in a rare email contact initiated by her I'm going to have to respond to the following I received earlier this evening:

"2old,

A piece of your mail came and I believe it is from the IRS office. What would you like for me to do with it? Do you have an address I can forward it to?"

No signature as usual just the low energy WAS stuff. No, since I have moved she hasn't had my new address. I have had no reason to give her it because of the lack of much contact between us.
Obviously I should be emailing her back saying thank you and please send it to blah blah blah. But damn it, I have been doing pretty well of late with n/c. Been feeling like I have taken some of the "power" back in this sitch. And now because of the IRS letter for whatever reason being sent to her address (which she hasn't ever given me by the way)I know I have to respond even though I truly dont feel like it at the moment...

Oh, and even though it is an IRS letter im not worried. Shouldnt be anything more than a yearly notice. So, any other thoughts for a response than what I am already thinking of saying which might draw out something different from her?

I would suggest not trying to manipulate some kind of response, just give her the address to send your IRS letter to. This is an insignificant exchange and doesn't increase or decrease your power.

Rick!

nice to hear from you...You sound good.

So how are your kids? Did you finally introduce them all to each other?

If not, may I ask what exactly you fear? You know, they WILL find out about each other someday...

Sorry for the hijack!!

That is a weird email from your W that's for sure! It must have come from the mail that you've sent her. I agree with adinva, just tell her what she needs to know

Yes, I said nothing more than providing my address and closed by saying thank you... I realize it was logical thing to do. But with her initiating so little it simply crossed my mind to maybe try something to invoke more....Now though I am glad I did not. Thanks Advina your thoughts were right on....And TTD as always thank you too....

I find it interesting how great I have been feeling until I heard from my WAS. Funny how one email contact from her was able to affect my long overdue descent mood. Oh well, lessons are still being learned and in the end a better "me" will prevail.

There was nothing in her text that made it sound like she wants to talk to you beyond the minimum required to coordinate mail and such, so your response was appropriate. Don't read anything into it, I don't think she was reaching out to you. If she ever does you'll know it!

Quote:

Some say stay dark as a possible with hope of the WAS getting to miss you. Others say peek out occassionally to not let the WAS forget about you.

I always wonder why a man would want a woman who could "forget" him so easily after she was M to him. If you have to remind her ever so often.....why would you?

Quote:

But with her initiating so little it simply crossed my mind to maybe try something to invoke more

Again.....why would you want to, if she doesn't?

Quote:

....Now though I am glad I did not.

Wheee, me too!

"Wheee, me too!"

LOL, thanks Sandi!!

ditto...^^^^

if anything, your simple cordial response was the best answer anyhow.

Thank you 25 I appreciate your input....I realize it was the right response and I'm learning to accept things for the way they are. It's been a looong and confusing 7 months though. Now however, I feel as though I have come "out of the fog" of being left behind. Detaching and moving onward is my resolve at this point and it has been coming on strong of late.

Since joining this board I have had excellent advice and input from so many here. I know in my heart these very worthy people have helped bring me through to where I am today. And yup, even the 2 x 4's I've been hit with occassionally were deserved and served thier purpose.

Now 8 months later, I have relocated, took a new job, purchased a new vehicle and have met lots of new people. Geesh, some of them even seem to like me. Things are definately on the upswing again and honestly I FEEL PRETTY GOOD...The number one and most important thing I have learned is to DETACH. This truly is the only way back to our own sanity again.

For any newcomers who might come across this, let me say the following: NO, it is not easy. The pain of losing a supposed loved one hurts for a good long while. Thoughts and pains will creep up on you sometimes even after you begin to move onward. But I promise you, if you detach (there are many things written here about detachment)and keep moving forward there really is light at the end of the tunnel!

GO TOWARDS THE LIGHT!!

Great to hear you're doing well and finally getting some GALing in

I'll lock away my 2x4 with your name on it now

lol.

So I received my mail from my stbx today. Nothing more than the letter she emailed me about was sent and as a side note her return address was her sons. She has had her own place now for 6 months yet she continues to hide her address from me. She knows very well I am not about to go knocking on her door some 500 miles away. It simply amazes me that she feels she has to hide her addy from me. It's completely ridiculous and somewhere in her mind she has to know this.

Something I was told by her daughter is rather surprising/shocking to me. Wife's daughter and her husband with two children are having a rough time right now and are being evicted from their home just days before Christmas. Yup, it's unreal but true. So they asked her mother my WAW if her and the 2 kids could come stay with her for a few weeks while daughters husband gets things straightened out. Unbelievably WAW told her daughter NO. That she would pray for a miracle for them.

Her daughter is 1400 miles from her, these are her grandchildren and WAW tells her daughter no with excuses. Stuff like not enough food to be able to feed them etc etc. Oh yes, I have been helping them where I can but to have your own mother deny you is sad and unreal. Daughter told me WAW had quit her job recently as again she couldn't get along with the other employees. This is definately something she has a problem with. This is like the 5th job she has quit since I have been with her because she cant get along with others.

So her son has taken a pay cut and having his company to pay her. She apparently watches the twin granddaughters a couple times of week. Her daughter loves her mother (my WAW) and they get along great. But at this time of need her Mother and well to do Brother are turning their backs on them. I am at a loss to figure out what is happening.

I did not want or need to know all this about WAW but with family in trouble and reaching out it's only natural to hear about whats going on. For WAW to turn her back on her own daughter and grand children is wayyy beyond belief. Now that I have been informed about all this, I swear for the life of me I can't figure out WAW. AS she prepares to fly to her other son's family for Christmas she is leaving her daughters family behind pure and simple.

At this point, I am relieved that I have not had to deal with WAW. I plan to keep it that way!

I have seen similar situations to what you're describing, and often the person/ people being evicted have done it to themselves through wreckless spending, failure to plan for the future and poor work ethic. Then when it's time to suffer the consequences, suddenly they want to run home to the parent or parents they've been treating like crap for years and mooch off of them until they can "get back on their feet". Many of these parents do take them back and discover that they can't get rid of them after that. Then they're faced with the awful decision of having to legally evict their own offspring, or let them stay indefinitely and eat away at whatever meager income they may have.

Letting your grown kids move back home is almost always a lose-lose scenario. If I were you I would just stay out of all that drama and not criticize your W for her choice in the matter because it may very well be the right choice for her AND for her D.

I agree with AS

I've got a friend who's had her daughter and her family to stay. They've been there a year now with no signs of moving anytime soon. My friend is a good Christian woman who never moans or complains about them, but I bet she would like her house back to herself one day

Do I need to tell you the 4 pillars of a MLC as written by Jim Conway

Spouse, Job, Body and God.

Sounds like she is just following the script.

And hiding the address, YUP she learned it from all the others that behave like a teenager or 4 year old kid.
Why should that surprise you?

You are doing fine 2old.
Keep working on YOUR new path in life,
what is it going to look like?
(You dont need an answer to this right now it is just something to think about)

"I have seen similar situations to what you're describing, and often the person/ people being evicted have done it to themselves through wreckless spending, failure to plan for the future and poor work ethic."

That is very astute to pick up on this AS. You are correct in the way the kids have hurt themselves financially with their wreckless/careless spending habits. Unfortunately or not, I tend to have a heart when it comes to descent people especially family hurting. Whether caused by them or not, when children are involved it tends to be painful to see or hear about. Especially this time of year.

It's very hard to stay out of this kind of drama. I'm sure you can understand that. Additional drama very recently for them is a hospital stay and a vehicle repo. I cant stand seeing people hurting in this way. You are right though, they need to learn but at what cost I guess is my point.

I am trying to not be critical of my WAW regarding this matter. But given how I knew her in the recent past, this current treatment of her daughter and grandchildren appears to be the "new her". IMHO, it's not the normal way you deal with loved one's. But as I fully understand things today we are not talking about the same person I once knew.

With that said, personally, yup I am doing great Cadet, thanks. I am indeed working on a new path in life and it feels good to be doing so. What it will eventually look like I cant be sure as yet. I do know however, as I continue working on me and learning it is and will be a whole lot better than where I came from.

It is really a difficult position to be placed in, because you WANT to help them, especially if it's family. And not helping them may mean they're placed into an even worse situation. But at the same time, people often have to hit rock bottom before they wake up and get their sh... er, "stuff" together. I've been that person (too many times) that helped someone that was in "desperate" need (losing house or apartment) only to discover them using the money to buy cigarettes, booze or to get a manicure. You think I'm kidding? Nooooo. I've also seen it work the other way where those people "in need" were refused help everywhere they turned and finally looked in the mirror and realized THAT is the only person that can truly get them unstuck. It's kind of like DB'ing in that respect, DB'ing is all about working on ourselves because we're broken and in the end no one else can fix us.

So I'm totally sympathetic having been there myself, but I've also been the hand that feeds that's been bitten more times than I care to recount, LOL! So that's my perspective for what it's worth

Congratulations 2old on the new improved you. You are sounding very upbeat and well and truly on the way to a new and improved you.
I also can see both sides with regards to the W's daughter, yours and AS, both have good and bad points.
I suppose the best is, you can be supportive with talking/validating and concern, while not being close enough to be in a position to be asked to help with accom.

Thought I would update things here as it's been quite sometime since the last one...Had a nice visit from WAS' family this past weekend. Her daughter's family came to see me and of course the mountains. But just the idea the kids wanted to see me was awesome.

I have had NO contact with WAS. She has made no attempt to contact me thru the holidays other than getting me a letter she recieved back in mid december. I did forward to her here recently a tax related email. I did not say anything just simply forwarded to her. Again, no response or even a Thank you. A few months ago this would of crushed me but no more.

Sandi, you made sense to me when you had said "why would you want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you". How logical is that? VERY....Maybe I have learned to finally accept that it doesn't matter why or the way she left (without saying anything).

What I do know is I did not deserve the way she did it. And that is a fact. After 9 months since her departure, I am beginning to wonder if I should indeed file for divorce myself. The way it was left back in August was that she would "get back to me" on the matter of her filing for divorce. To date there has been nothing no movement no anything.

I am really not sure what to do. Her daughter tells me there has been no OM. I think it would be easier for me to move forward and file myself if there was. If I wait what am I waiting for? Is there any reason I shouldn't file? These are difficult questions to answer.

Very difficult questions to answer 2old. We are in similar boats and on similar waves, what to do?
Sandi's comment is so matter of fact, but still hard for us to take: "why would you want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with you" and maybe that is what the WAS thinks.
I agree with you, this is not what we deserve with regards to the way our WAS did this. We deserve better.....full stop.
Should you file or not? That is a question only you can answer. My question back is, what is the good and bad of filing or not filing?
What will it do for you in life, if you filed? Would it still be the same if you didn't file?
In my opinion, the filing is the final chance/hope. I know others say it is just paperwork, but to me, there is nothing more left. So 2old are you ready to do that? Will it make you feel better? Will it improve your life by doing it?
Speaking for myself, I would agree with whatever you chose.

Hi 2old

Unless you have another woman and you want to marry her, there's no need to file for D. It costs a lot of money and have you got that much to fork out? In the UK if no-one's filed after 5 years then the M is nil and void anyway. I'm not sure the ins and outs of it, it's just what I've been told.

Originally Posted By: 2old

After 9 months since her departure, I am beginning to wonder if I should indeed file for divorce myself. The way it was left back in August was that she would "get back to me" on the matter of her filing for divorce. To date there has been nothing no movement no anything.

It's kind of the same with me, W has told me 3 or 4 times that she was finalizing the paperwork and I would have it THE NEXT DAY. The first time I heard that was 5 months ago!

Quote:

If I wait what am I waiting for?

For me it's all about the kids, if we didn't have kids together then I'd be OK with ending the M. But to me, it's very clear that the right thing to do for the kids is to reconcile. This is really tearing them up, and they still want us to get back together. They really need that stability, it's their "home base" in this crazy, difficult world. My parents got divorced when I was in my early teens and it tore my world apart and I never had a family again (as a child I mean). No more family vacations, family dinners, family get-togethers on Christmas morning. It still hurts to think about what life was like after D versus before. I would do anything to keep my kids from suffering through that. Unfortunately it only takes one to D, so it's mostly out of our hands. But we can stand.

"But we can stand."

So what are you really saying AS...

Why would you file?
I what way would that make your life different if you wait 2,3 or 6 months?

F

P.S Please get that signature in place 2old

well, good point F...Waiting wont make a difference as far as I can tell at this point. I guess when you are being completely ignored with absolutely no reaching out from her end, you get just get tired of being treated in that manner. In my mind it is undeserved and unwarranted on her part. She left on her terms which any normal person would look at and deem most inapropriate.

The point is I'm tired of the sitch anymore. Wait, wait, wait, for what? It's almost like being a deer in the woods with a hunter just sitting in his tree stand. The deer at some point comes into the clearing and BAM!! Or the deer never comes into the clearing and the hunter justs sits and waits, for how long?

Do what is beet for You. What do YOU want?

Hi 2,

Originally Posted By: 2old

well, good point F...Waiting wont make a difference as far as I can tell at this point.

Trust me this one: I get you!!! I understand! But then stop waiting and start living. As long as the M doesn�t interfere with the life you want to live then just let it be. At the moment the M starts interfering the consider D once again.

Originally Posted By: 2old

I guess when you are being completely ignored with absolutely no reaching out from her end, you get just get tired of being treated in that manner.

Yup! But how on earth would D help on that feeling�please explain this to yourself. You are more than welcome to share here and I will comment on your thoughts if you would like me to.

Originally Posted By: 2old

In my mind it is undeserved and unwarranted on her part. She left on her terms which any normal person would look at and deem most inapropriate.

How will D help on that?
Do you believe it will make these feelings go away
Will it make you feel any better about how she has treated you?

Originally Posted By: 2old

The point is I'm tired of the sitch anymore. Wait, wait, wait, for what?

Stop waiting and start living once again! Consider the marriage over and go out into life. It is out there!

Originally Posted By: 2old

It's almost like being a deer in the woods with a hunter just sitting in his tree stand. The deer at some point comes into the clearing and BAM!! Or the deer never comes into the clearing and the hunter justs sits and waits, for how long?

I am a hunter and I have spent so many hours in a treestand without seeing anything at all, but still knowing that the deer is in the forest. That�s why I rarely sit in the tree stands anymore. I like to walk the forest, highland or wherever I am. I like enjoying, smelling, seeing, tasting the nature�.So this is a nice metaphor to use IMO!
Get down from the tree stand and start enjoying the nature by walking in it�.who knows: The deer might still come by

All the best
F

Originally Posted By: 2old

well, good point F...Waiting wont make a difference as far as I can tell at this point. I guess when you are being completely ignored with absolutely no reaching out from her end, you get just get tired of being treated in that manner. In my mind it is undeserved and unwarranted on her part. She left on her terms which any normal person would look at and deem most inapropriate.

The point is I'm tired of the sitch anymore. Wait, wait, wait, for what? It's almost like being a deer in the woods with a hunter just sitting in his tree stand. The deer at some point comes into the clearing and BAM!! Or the deer never comes into the clearing and the hunter justs sits and waits, for how long?

So you're waiting to shoot her? LOL! Just kidding, I know what you meant

You're right, you don't deserve to get treated like crap. When it comes down to it, all most of us were really guilty of is not knowing our spouse wasn't happy. And in being here we've all proven that once we knew, we were willing to DO SOMETHING about it. Our spouses? Not so much. The only thing they've done about it is dump us. We work hard, they run away. It is absolutely not fair. But that's why the focus has to be on US and not our spouses. Because when we work on ourselves for ourselves, well then we can't lose.

Anyway, I hear you loud and clear. My W isn't dark like yours, but believe me, I am getting nothing, and I mean NOTHING from her as far as warmth, validation or love. I think "tolerance" is about the most I get from her. How do you keep loving someone who doesn't love you? I don't think you can, if love isn't nurtured it withers and dies. How long that takes is for each of us to determine. I've seen people that couldn't even wait a month. Others have waited for years. For me the interest in reconciling really waned at around the 16 month mark and it's steadily declined ever since. You may be getting there too. And if you are, I think you'll get no criticism here. You've stood for 8 months, that's nothing to be ashamed of. In the end you need to do what is best for you, to not just survive but to thrive and be happy.

I agree with what F is saying

In fact I was going to post something similar when I got home from college today, but I've been beaten to it. Why are you waiting? What are you waiting for? Get out there and start living

The waiting will just make it hard for you to move on and at the moment it's you that you need to be working on, not her

In a few months or years, she may come out of hiding, but she won't if you keep waiting for her. So like F says, get off that tree stand and go out and GAL

You've been doing so well lately, don't slip back to how you've been before you moved

My motto for 2014 is moving forwards not backwards

There are some who see the financial and legal reality of divorce in the paper work, and then change their mind. Not a ton, but I have seen some. And almost 1 out of 5 former spouses, remarry each other. (Almost always a few years later).

So I don't buy that the "D" is THE FINAL STRAW, b/c it obviously is not for a significant minority.

But sure -- if no contact has been had, and You feel the need to be defined by or freed of your marital status, go ahead and file.

But do it so YOU can feel free or liberated or whatever. Not as a tactic.

OTOH, don't be bowled over if she calls you up and says "Hey, I'm still thinking!"

Okay all, thank you for your thoughts. First, let me start by saying I am indeed moving forward with my life and have been for sometime now. And it is because of my moving forward I have had some serious thoughts of late as to what do I do about the situation with my S...About this what seems to be a never ending limboland I destest so much.

The idea of my S living her life without having the descency to say anything to me about leaving, divorcing etc. from the time she left and all the many months (9)since is something I find very ugly. She was not this ugly person I am finding her to be today. In my mind, I could NEVER do someone like that. Even if I hated that person I would have enough inside me to say how and why I felt the way I did.

Maybe at this time I am now preparing myself to truly and completely detach from the sitch. The stumbling block I keep coming up against is even though I AM MOVING FORWARD whenever the thoughts of my sitch arise it is a reminder that there is no closure to what was an important time and many years of my life. Not looking back is difficult to do even with the better days I have been indeed experiencing.

25yearsmlc, I really dont even think of using anything as a tactic anymore with her. Sure, I did in the beginning as most do however, that mindset is long gone. I appreciate you reminding me of this

. Right now it would appear that maybe, somehow I need to just get a mindset of letting her do what she will regarding a D. I dont need the cost of that right now for sure. As TTD mentioned, D costs money. Even a simple D costs a good amount and even if I did file as you said 25years she may not be willing to sign. Who knows, but I dont want to spend money on something that may not come to an end.

F, I agree with you on the smelling the forest stuff. As long as it's not bear chit...heh heh...I do believe I have considered the marriage over for sometime. And it has been obviously.

AS, nah, I dont want to shoot her...lolol...Damnit I'm too nice of a person to do that...But, I do have a good aim and can hit my target!

Sure I have stood for awhile but in all honesty 3 months ago I began living a good and descent life again. I have never felt better except for the damn cold i have atm. Somehow I have got to "learn" a way to not let my thoughts dwell on my WAS' treatment of me from the beginning till now and likely beyond without some finality.

And that is what this is really about now. It is NOT about me pining away for her, I am not and will not do that. I dont even feel that anymore. I have not made any statements to her to make her believe I am doing that either. In August of last year I did write her a coherent email telling how I felt. No begging whining or pleading involved. That is when she responded a week later about getting back to me on D.

Ummmm, geesh that was 6 months ago.

2old, I would consult a lawyer to get an idea of what it entails. It is just a legal issue and not an emotional issue. I mean the M is broken ( the emotional part). The divorce is the legal part so I wouldn't rush it, no need to. It does cost a lot of money. The more assets you have together the costlier it will be. I think it cost me over 10k and it took over a year to be finalized. In many states assets and debts are split 50/50. Also consider spousal support. It's cheaper to keep them

2,

I think in your w's mind, what's there to say? She got your email and pretty much must have meant "too little too late" or some such message she feels is clear thru her actions.

I admit there is SOME Clarity in a non response...just not the kind of thought out delineation you seem to want and need, like most of us. But then, there often comes a time when we no longer care WHY they do what they do.

We learn our own lessons about what WE need/want to change and we do it for ourselves.

I guess my question to you is,

what is it you need to understand from your w? What don't you "get"?

Give it some thought before blurting out the first answer. B/c her silence really is a message of sorts. TO her, it may be obvious.

So, after some thought, tell me what she's Not telling you, if you don't mind.

Hope this helps.

25,

It does help and yes, I hear what you are saying. Her silence is indeed some sort of answer. I know my struggle comes from the "not being told honestly". We were together 13 years. We never fought or even argued much at all. Our life together was not perfect but WE did have a life. We did for each other, talked etc. etc.

So to have her simply leave and within a matter of just a few hours no longer speak or have hardly any contact is extrodinary in my mind. Right up until I left her at the airport for her visit to her son's we were as were always were, Doing for each other. As I look back yes, there were signs from her, crying, saying things out of the ordinary etc. When I asked why she might be teary eye'd it was "nothing".

Her daughter did recently reinterate to me what she was told by her mother (W)about living without someone for a year how u can live without them for the rest of your life and who knows what will happen in the future. To me, I understand that as why she might not be having hardly any contact with me. That maybe she had a hard time doing what she did. That she could not talk to me and still cant because in alot of ways she knows I was not a "monster" in any way shape or form.

And yet, something, something drove her away in an ugly manner. That is where I struggle. Is/was it hate, or just her overwhelming desire to have the financial freedom that her well to do son could and has since provided her. No ill remorse towards him from my end. He is doing what he should as this is his mother.

She has her problems as well as myself. I know/knew her once and she had her demons so to speak. BUT< there was nothing so bad (not even close)that either of us couldn't of worked out. Something inside her detonated and she could not even bring herself to tell me.

Yes, there may be some clarity in her non response. I completely agree with you that her silence is a response of sorts. Still, the details are in the devil I've heard said many times. What are the REAL details/reasons for all of this. That is what would be good to understand. That is what would set me free......

2old,

Sorry to interfere but your last post really get's me! I does seem extraordinairy and is has looked that way since day 1. Leaving in that way is special (even in here) and it is not ok!

The no answers hurts, but we all have these! I speak to my, very amicable, W several times a week and see her often, but still I have all kind of questions that can't be answered - also about why she left, the way she left and so on! Many others have these questions, if not almost all of us!
We think about our Ws and sits, we guess, we educate ourselves, we grow, talk to friends, we post in here, talk to Ts and so on searching for a lot of things and among them the answers to questions.

Maybe someday we will understand and maybe we won't. Maybe this knowledge will set us free and maybe it won't...I don't know and to be honest I do not think you know that for certain either.
I am starting to believe that the only thing or person that truly can set you free - is you and nobody else. Even if you got a week with your W and the right to ask her all kind of questions - would you believe the answers?

Still I am left with the same question as prior....how will D get you anywhere closer to answering this or these questions? How will D set you free if that is what you are looking for?

F

2old, I am in agreement with all the replies here. I also understand where you are coming from, especially when I am kinda in the same boat. Having a WAS who you have lived with and communicated (whether correctly or not) with for so many years, just up and leave, with very little communication (in whatever form) over the time of the sitch, is very hard to deal with.
Your sitch has even less communication than mine. And I struggle with that, so I can only imagine how you must feel.
I also understand fully your question of not getting the answers you want. And sometimes these answers don't really have a question leading up to them.
Why and how can, what we perceived as a loving spouse, just up and go, without looking back?
In some ways, I am in the same time frame as you are: feeling there is no hope for a future together, feeling there is nothing else I can do, and in all honesty thinking what is the point of waiting for them to do the divorce. Lets just get it over so I (we) can move on.
The divorce isn't a last ditch effort to get them back. It is just finishing off the loose ends.
I have a friend who is waiting for his wife to do the divorce papers, they do not communicate and haven't for many years, he isn't hoping she will come back. He is living his own life, but the divorce is still that loose thread, she left him something like 12 years ago.
I couldn't go through life with that on my mind, so I understand where you are 2old.

2old,
After reading HWAs post I just want to underline that I understand and if my post comes out as a 2x4 or harsh in any way it is not intended.
Only intention is to give you a wellmeant second angle on this matter!
F

Hi 2old,

I can understand how you are feeling and considering D. I would hold off on contacting a lawyer till you do some research first. In my state the state court system has a do it yourself divorce guide with all forms required. If you decide to go the D route and can at least get you W to consider working through it with you, you will save a ton of money.

In my situation, wife filed and then moved out with kids. She got a lot of bad advice from her family and lawyer. Her family has had a lot of bad divorces and based on her families advice I can tell why. The long and short is my W ran out of money to pay her lawyer and had to pull the D from the court or she would have owed much more. Combined it cost us $14,000.00 and she did not get her D. I had told her at the beginning that we should slow down and try not to involve the lawyers.

Originally Posted By: 2old

25,

It does help and yes, I hear what you are saying. Her silence is indeed some sort of answer. I know my struggle comes from the "not being told honestly". We were together 13 years. We never fought or even argued much at all. Our life together was not perfect but WE did have a life. We did for each other, talked etc. etc.

So to have her simply leave and within a matter of just a few hours no longer speak or have hardly any contact is extrodinary in my mind. Right up until I left her at the airport for her visit to her son's we were as were always were, Doing for each other. As I look back yes, there were signs from her, crying, saying things out of the ordinary etc. When I asked why she might be teary eye'd it was "nothing".

Her daughter did recently reinterate to me what she was told by her mother (W)about living without someone for a year how u can live without them for the rest of your life and who knows what will happen in the future. To me, I understand that as why she might not be having hardly any contact with me. That maybe she had a hard time doing what she did. That she could not talk to me and still cant because in alot of ways she knows I was not a "monster" in any way shape or form.

OR she does not want to argue with you again or "Discuss' her reasons. Maybe she thinks you don't listen well or would argue with her.

IMO, my guess, and its only a guess, is that she believes if you dig deep enough or think hard enough, she did tell you. More than once. IT's a rare rare woman who leaves without warning her man she is not happy. I don't know that I have ever heard of it.

And yet, something, something drove her away in an ugly manner. That is where I struggle. Is/was it hate, or just her overwhelming desire to have the financial freedom that her well to do son could and has since provided her. No ill remorse towards him from my end. He is doing what he should as this is his mother.

I don't know. IF she simply wanted a nicer lifestyle, I assume you'd have been invited...??

She has her problems as well as myself. I know/knew her once and she had her demons so to speak.

Why bring her "Demons" up now? I mean, I'm curious. And what do you think Your issues are?

What are you doing about them? What are your 180s? And GAL?

Are you doing any type of DB plan?

BUT< there was nothing so bad (not even close)that either of us couldn't of worked out. Something inside her detonated and she could not even bring herself to tell me.

Yes, there may be some clarity in her non response. I completely agree with you that her silence is a response of sorts. Still, the details are in the devil I've heard said many times. What are the REAL details/reasons for all of this. That is what would be good to understand. That is what would set me free......

I don't mean to quibble, but I strongly disagree with that^^ part.

I do not think there exist any reasons that would suffice, in YOUR EYES.

I truly do not believe she could say anything that would alleviate your pain, with the possible exception that she "became gay"... after a year of asking "Why?? and "HOW CAN YOU??" of my h, (with or without him present)

I stopped wondering. The words of a 10 y/o cancer victim in summer camp, came to me one night.

She told me "I used to ask God, 'why me, God, Why am I so sick?? I'd say 'why why why?' Then I just stopped asking b/c I just am, and I want to have fun while I can." That was her last summer, but she lived it well.

When I found myself asking the same Unanswerable questions, I recalled her comment and I just stopped asking the same thing or waiting for an answer...

& it would not set you free.

YOU set yourself free.

Nothing she says or does, will achieve that. Freedom is yours for the taking...

Quote:

YOU set yourself free.

Yes.

2old, I completely agree with F, HWA and 25, you're just not ever going to get answers that satisfy you. I'm sure you've seen people on TV pleading for a kidnapper to return their lost child and they often exclaim "I just want to know WHY!" But what answer could they possibly hear that would make them say "oh, now I understand why this person kidnapped and murdered my child." There isn't one. The only "explanation" is that the person is not thinking clearly, because normal people don't behave that way. And that is the state of our WASs. They no longer think and function like the spouses we once knew, they're in the fog. A WAS that used to post here left her H and kept telling him to move on, she was done. But he kept waiting. Finally she sat down with him and made it clear to him that she was DONE and he really needed to forget her. Then she suddenly had a change of heart and she said it was exactly like emerging from fog. While she was in the fog she THOUGHT she was thinking clearly, but once she emerged and really could see clearly she understood just how mired in the fog she had been. She suddenly remembered her life had indeed been good with her H, that they had great times together, that he made her laugh like no one else. These were all things that were blocked by the fog and forgotten. She started reaching out to him but he had followed her advice and moved on, and thus she became a LBS and ended up here.

Anyway, the point is the only real answer for you is your W is not herself. Maybe she will be again someday, but maybe she won't. How long you stand to see if that happens is your choice. But regardless, get out and GAL, that's your way through this.

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

The only "explanation" is that the person is not thinking clearly, because normal people don't behave that way.

Us LBS's need to keep remembering this, such a simple line with a big message.

Originally Posted By: hotwheelsaust

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

The only "explanation" is that the person is not thinking clearly, because normal people don't behave that way.

Us LBS's need to keep remembering this, such a simple line with a big message.

I generally agree with all this. The only "quibble" ( & it really is just a point of clarification for ME) is this:

Don't blame their fog for your own issues; work on YOU no matter how wacky you think your WAS is.

You have issues to work on. We all do.

Don't neglect the "upside" of this whole ordeal, the only upside really, is that WE IMPROVE as people.

Whereas IF you don't do at least that, then this is just a total nightmare. and we have blown our best chance at becoming who we were meant to become.
This ordeal, this adversarial time, is our chance to rise to the occasion and to become a man/woman that only a fool would leave.

Second, even if the WAS are not thinking clearly, and often then are not, that does NOT necessarily mean

1) they will again think clearly or wake up; ever, or soon,

AND - OR

2) even if they do awaken, they will not be quite the same as before.

We can still lose them. AND OR We may no longer wish to be with who they are now, or who they were. Then We can become the WAS and it's NOT to be punitive. (Make sure of that).

It's just that once the "DB dance" and work seems done, and the reconciliation or piecing begins,

it's as if WE LBSers suddenly awaken only to ask ourselves,

Hey, is this what I want for MY life now? Now that I know I'm quite alright, with or without my spouse? Now that I have GAL and have become the person I once was, or hoped to be...

what or whom do I WANT, NOW??

As for recon, the ones I have seen seem to follow one of two paths (generally). Once we get along enough to be civil and co parent, we can usually become cordial, even friendly...with our former spouses...

and from there, the reconciliations begin..

If they are going to reconcile, of the couples I know who have, that's usually how it happens. A kid's event, a family thing or a phone call, but they all succeed after AND ONLY AFTER both people have really dug deep, to work on themselves, totally independent of each other.

So there is no score keeping. No beliefs that "i will work on me & my stuff,if HE does HIS work too.. WHILE OR BEFORE I do my work...(and I will keep peeking and score keeping to check...)

Simply put, That^^^ approach always fails. Ditch the scorecard for good.

Don't even bother working on yourself if it's at all contingent on someone else's working on themselves. IT defeats the purpose.

In sum, do not "wait" for them to awaken.

At one point I decided to Assume my h was in the Australian Bush and I could not reach him until if and when he got a satellite phone. I would NOT sit by my phone waiting, that's for sure...

IT might be a few months, but is likely to be a solid year or two...or never...

Yes my advice is that the LBSers MUST move on. BUT Moving on does not mean we slam and lock the door behind us, but it does mean we stop looking behind us to see if our WAS has noticed, or turned, or is GAL and all the obsessing that goes with guesswork re a WAS....so tiring and wasteful and it very much hinders our own path and growth....

Constantly Looking over your shoulder is no way to swim to the other shore.

Just get to the other shore, to the place where their actions/feelings/plans are NOT our priority or focus.

Accept that your WAS knows how to reach you IF they want to. You're not off fighting in Afghanistan...they have arms that work and can pick up a phone and make their mouth say what they need to say.

Make sense?

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Yes my advice is that the LBSers MUST move on. BUT Moving on does not mean we slam and lock the door behind us, but it does mean we stop looking behind us to see if our WAS has noticed, or turned, or is GAL and all the obsessing that goes with guesswork re a WAS....so tiring and wasteful and it very much hinders our own path and growth....

Constantly Looking over your shoulder is no way to swim to the other shore.

Just get to the other shore, to the place where their actions/feelings/plans are NOT our priority or focus.

Great advice!!

Yes, 25, that makes a lot of sense. So as part of moving on, when the LBS decides to continue to work on their marriage (or stand so to speak) , where does the dating fall into all of this.
As a stander, do we still believe in the marriage completely and never date again. Or do we stand as per se, still care and love our WAS, but realise that we cannot simply stay a nun/priest during that time?
Are we just as bad as the WAS, if we say we are standing, but then go out and date?

Originally Posted By: hotwheelsaust

Yes, 25, that makes a lot of sense. So as part of moving on, when the LBS decides to continue to work on their marriage (or stand so to speak) , where does the dating fall into all of this.

This ^^ is a core question that has several components. No simple answer.

Let me try outlining a few parameters.

Timing is key. No one can pretend to be "standing" and then date two weeks after a bomb drop. That's a pretty clear example of someone not DBing or taking their vows seriously.

But I have seen (true stories) people here "standing" for 5 or more YEARS, with NO interaction or sign of reconciliation from their EX spouse...they are often legally and physically divorced and have been out of touch for years, but will claim to be 'standing"....

but to ME, they are waiting or standing STILL and somehow claiming to be "working on the m". iF someone is not doing anything different or new, I don't believe they are working on themselves, and I don't think they understand DBing. Or they like to lift their hands up in the air helplessly but saying "I TRIED" and what they really mean is they did not file...which is not nearly what we mean when we use the terms "DBing" and "Standing", etc.

Dating is not a gimmick to get a spouse back. For one thing, that would be grossly unfair to the OM/OW who is essentially being used as a tactic to get a second look from a WAS.

Plus if that ^^^is the real reason for the date, it usually gets detected, so it backfires anyhow, and then the whole point of the charade is lost. Not to mention potentially hurting an innocent OM/OW...

HOWEVER
I think dating even though you are open to a reconciliation, DOES have a legit role, under some circumstances.

My list of when it's "okay" to date is not written in stone and is just MHO and is NOT exhaustive or complete.

But no matter how dedicated we are to a marriage, we also all have our own personal limits. Being alone in bed every night, is a nightly reminder of our rejected status. Though it can be liberating and exciting, it also can get old and lonely too.

OR maybe the LBSer no longer wants to stand so they begin to date, regardless of the Div filing status.

OR maybe we just want to know what is out there, dating wise, so we take a look.
OR perhaps we have met someone special, someone who makes us laugh or with whom we share a common interest, AND it can be very reassuring to simply know an attractive MAN/WOMAN does exist, OTHER than the one who left you!

True, We may never want to date again, but we might want to file just to have some measure of closure (though I believe that concept is overstated).

OTOH, maybe we just want to know that someone out there still thinks we are desirable and our ego needs some stroking. Lord knows our ego has taken a smashing blow and it would feel nice to know that we are not the losers we sometimes feel we must be for our favorite person in the world to leave us....

And that's ^^probably not a good enough reason to date, b/c there, it's about our insecurity/ego, and not about getting to know someone new or someone really interested in Them, nor would we be bringing much to the table for THEM...

But if a LOT of time has passed (and for ME, 6 months is a minimum before I'd open my eyes to an OM and I know I'd wait longer if there were kids, )

and that is a whole other issue of huge importance. Are there children? Gender and Ages?

What is Their level of preparedness for a parent to date. Believe it or not, many kids ask their LBS parent to date, MAYBE b/c they worry that the LBS will become too bitter or lonely, if they don't find someone else, or they'll be alone and the child feels burdened by the LBSer, or worries they will someday, and they want the LBS parent to be happy. This is especially clear when the LBSer is depressed or rejected feeling, which is always, (but some of us hide it better from the kids...but not many hide it well or consistently b/c, well, because we are human).

So if there are kids, I'd add to the time period before dating, I'd be VERY VERY slow in introducing the kids to a new person.

The MC I saw told me that if I were to date, to only introduce the kids to a OM if I were 75% sure that something permanent was possible with the OM. AND that the kids were to have "reasonable veto power", which meant, according to this MC, that if a child does not connect or like the new person or they don't match up well or get along, the new person GOES AWAY...the kids CAN veto.

The exception would be if the kids are simply not accepting the parents divorce, (when it's obviously too late, for instance if the WAS has remarried and has a new family, it's OVER and yet there are a few kids who will still want their remaining parent to be single forever... in which case greatly slowing down the new R is clearly needed.

The child is not to feel as if they have no vote or say in their surroundings b/c it will deeply weaken their belief that they can affect or control their lives. Make sense?

I can see that at some point a new R would not be able to progress UNLESS/UNTIL I knew that my kids approved of and liked the man. And that he liked my kids. IT'd be a non starter if they did not get along. (Reminds me of a woman who came to Legal Aid once for a problem. She mentioned the new man in her life and said "He's a great guy and I really love him...he's NOT great with my kids b/c they don't get along, but everything else is..." AND I STOPPED her then and there..

"how can a man be a "great guy" but NOT get along with your kids? It's either or, not both. I was stunned that someone NOT Liking your kids would still be considered as a potential mate, at all.

Talk about making your child feel low on the Totem pole...

If there are no signs of a recon, and you have not dated, then you know the dating did not make things worse.

And if you are sincerely interested in someone who seems pleasant and you wish to get to know them, and you are honest with them, then it can be a good way to revisit your single self, get to know how to date these days amd at your present age, AND to remember that not all members of the opposite sex are 'bad news".

If it's "time to get back in the saddle", and you are worried about your kids, ask them how they'd feel about it. Being direct is a really refreshing thing for kids to have with them, in times like these especially.

Try to ask them this, BEFORE you meet a special person. so the air is cleared when no emotions are involved AND If there is strong resistance from your family, you won't feel nearly as frustrated or trapped by deferring the whole dating scene. And not feeling trapped, tends to help ALL the r;s you have...

As a stander, do we still believe in the marriage completely and never date again.

Not in my opinion. Never say never!

My h and I were sep (including geographically) as well, for 2 years. After year 1, I began to dip my toe in the dating world.

In some ways, dating reminded me why I like men. Many men HERE on these boards also serve as wonderful reminders of what good stand up men are like. They show up for their lives and they truly care and work hard.

It also reminded me of why I chose my h in the first place. Despite meeting two very good men out here dating, I mostly felt better suited to my h. I'm pretty sure he had a similar experience. You meet someone, they are attractive and courteous and you have dinner. During dinner You realize "oh, they don't feel secure around (me) someone with more education than they have", or "oh wow they really do care WAY too much about my income level...not cool...
or they don't take care of themselves physically or they drink too much, and the point ends up being that you miss your spouse MORE!

Want the Good news? The good news is, It goes both ways!

IF your spouse is dating, do NOT assume the best date ever/worst case for you...it hurts, And it's not too accurate so, why bother?

Or do we stand as per se, still care and love our WAS, but realise that we cannot simply stay a nun/priest during that time?

One fear I articulated at the time was, "what if I never have sex again?" My MC was a man and my ego got enough strokes that he convinced me that dating and having sex "again, SOMEDAY", would happen so that I did not let that factor, the desire for physical intimacy, get ahold of me too fast.

Are we just as bad as the WAS, if we say we are standing, but then go out and date?

Seems to me the "hypocrisy" argument your WAS could make, is weak yet it sure can hurt you, but it only works against you, if you did JUST what the WAS did, which is impossible if you were under the same roof and he forgot to mention had "GD Unhappy" he is....

We are just as bad as the WAS when we do what they did...if it was bad.

To be fair, SOME WASs are not dating OM/OW when they drop the bomb, but once they separate some do begin to date.

As hard as it is to see how they are "trying" in the M, while sep and then dating, somehow it feels differently than when a spouse is still under roof as you are, and steps out on you.

I hope this helps more than confuses. Input welcome.

And though I see the obvious downside of dating WHILE standing, there are ways to do it carefully. You do NOT tell your WAS.

You do NOT tell your kids until if and when you know this person is important enough for you to put them and the new person, through it. If things go south, the kids get to feel abandoned, again.

Good question, good luck. I'll try to be more specific next time.

Wow,

amazing insight, 25. So much information, and so much of it makes clear sense.

I have always been a little confused about the term, stander. I thought it meant "waiting", or maybe I thought it meant "still trying". I just assumed once a person had moved on to the point of dating, the "standing" was all over and done with. Your explanation adds a lot of clarity.

I have a question though. You mentioned that it would be a good idea to discuss dating with your children. Are you saying to literally say, "hey kids, what do you think about (parent) going out on some dates? If that is the case, at what age would you consider having this conversation? Obviously, we LBSers wouldn't have this conversation with a toddler, but what about a 5 yo., a 10 yo., etc?

In regards to filing for Divorce, I think we all look to it in hopes that it will be that silver bullet. We just want to get the pain and hurt over with so we can move forward. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. If I had to it all over again, I would not have filed. I feel the longer one can wait, the less emotion there will be. That will allow better decisions to be made, and it will be at a time where you will be better prepared to deal with the issues at hand.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

Wow,

amazing insight, 25. So much information, and so much of it makes clear sense.

I have always been a little confused about the term, stander. I thought it meant "waiting", or maybe I thought it meant "still trying". I just assumed once a person had moved on to the point of dating, the "standing" was all over and done with. Your explanation adds a lot of clarity.

I believe people tried to tell you SP, that moving on did not mean never looking back, or that you were stuck with either "waiting/standing" or "over and done with."

The truth is that the LBSer who lasts, is the one who learns to live with some ambiguity in their life.

Not everyone can handle the "be here Now" approach that letting go of our illusion of control, requires. We can't worry all the time about what is going to happen or where the R is going, nor can we keep on living in the past.

We have to take it day by day and work on OURSELVES without regard to what our spouse is doing, for some amount of time that is usually longer than we believe we can do it....

I have a question though. You mentioned that it would be a good idea to discuss dating with your children.

I don't think that is what I said or meant to say. to be clear, NO I would not INTRODUCE a child to anyone I dated, regardless of the child's age, --- UNTIL if and when

the new person is someone you are mostly (like 3/4??) sure you want to build something permanent with, you then introduce your d to the new person.

Don't wait til it's a done deal, before you bring them together. This is part of the building on the R...if they don't click, it's a deal breaker.

When the kids are older, like teenagers, if you want to date but were not sure how they'd feel, I'd just ask them IF they would be comfortable...I know some folks who honestly would prefer their widowed parents or divorced parents WOULD date but others want the remaining parent to solely focus on THEM, the kids, b/c they are...kids. But the widower/widows I know, have kids who would like them to meet someone, EVENTUALLY...

And they need to get along WELL w/the new person (not "okay" but well, like the kid wants her around, and visa versa)

or you are asking for more trouble...and yes it is possible to be a very decent step parent. I have seen it done well, and I've seen it done poorly.

My MC said that kids should have "reasonable veto power" when they meet the OP, but that "no parade of candidates should be hauled in front of the kids to audition as the new step parent, as it also makes the kids feel like they are auditioning for the step child role", which is not that appealing to kids, and if there are other kids on her side, be careful and put thought into it BEFORE things get too far.

My former BIL left my sister to find himself. Later, he chose to marry OW (whom HE describes as "high maintenance"). The OW he married does not like his children. Truly. He waited to introduce them until he had already decided to marry her and he had no problem with the fact that his new fiancee was not fond of his kids. Maybe HE is not fond of them?? All I know is that he compounded the wrongs of the divorce by then choosing someone who makes it clear that his children's happiness is simply NOT HIS Priority...

She's been over heard saying things like "Can't we dump them on your x?" and she doesn't like them opening HER refrigerator to get a drink (they are all over 21 and I mean, it's milk, and juice, not wine or liquor...her behavior is unforgivable really.

It has done some deep damage to each of his 3 kids. None of them are close to their dad, at all...

So I think that the veto power is crucial, but it needs to be firm & reasonable and done early enough in the R so if it's going to end b/c they are not going to work out, you don't drag it out..

Of course, if your d says "No I want you to date someone with red hair" and that's her REAL objection,
first dig deep enough to see if she's being silly or if she's still just hoping you and your ex reconcile OR if she simply wants all of your attention, you work on it...maybe you persuade her to care more about what really matters but you still give her the feeling of choice...

But if my children, any of them, OR if your d, SP, meets an OW of yours & she and the OW truly don't hit it off after a few weeks or months, I'd absolutely see the writing on the walls. I would think BEFORE I went much farther with a new person, and I would not be complacent and "just hope" it gets better on its' own. That complacency is dangerous in a marriage or family.

Truly, I don't understand people dating, let alone marrying, someone their kids did not LOVE...period. Bad enough to put the kid thru a bad marriage and divorce, only to bring in someone who only cares for the partner and does not want to be bothered by the child...or wants "her own".

Making sure the child knows that they reserve the right to reject, that they come first (at least until a marriage happens) and that what is happening in their lives, ( IF a marriage is coming), is the welcoming of another affirming adult into their lives...meaning, down the road if you and your x both meet and marry good people, (=people who are kind to your d)

rather than feeling threatened by OM who is good to your d, or your xw feeling bad about you meeting a great woman who loves your d,

you both should thank each other for choosing a new partner (step parent to your child) who really does treat them well.

Children who have two parents and two step parents, all of whom love the child, and positively reinforce things and encourage the child, can't be all bad. And it's not. (The alternative, is pretty darn bad.)

My niece got married last year, and the divorce of her parents (my closest brother and her mom) was the worst we had in our family. A full trial and witnesses testifying, the whole 9 yards...6 figures in legal bills, etc.

So, At the wedding, my brother touchingly thanked his 2nd wife for being such a great step mom to his d's, all the meals she made, the nights she stayed up with His daughters when they were sick, AND then he graciously toasted the step father for "being there when he could not" and for loving his daughters too...

It was Very touching, and classy...and something to emulate...??

Are you saying to literally say, "hey kids, what do you think about (parent) going out on some dates? If that is the case, at what age would you consider having this conversation? Obviously, we LBSers wouldn't have this conversation with a toddler, but what about a 5 yo., a 10 yo., etc?

I would not bring it up (unless you had met someone special...but not waiting til after things have gone too far to turn them around if there is a problem)

SP, in your sitch, I think the topic would naturally come up from your d, b/c your xw is dating. So at some point your d will probably ask you. Then you ask HER how she'd feel about it. And so on.

She may say she wants you all to yourself, and mean it...but that will change in time.
At some point she will prefer you have someone of your own, b/c she will want more freedom of her own.
IT's the natural process later on, when the kids start wanting to hang with their friends way more than time with their parents, so it'd be nice for THEM, to feel unburdened by worrying about their parents social life.

But again even if you are dating someone, your d does NOT need to know about that if it's something new in your life.

In regards to filing for Divorce, I think we all look to it in hopes that it will be that silver bullet. We just want to get the pain and hurt over with so we can move forward. Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. If I had to it all over again, I would not have filed.

SIGH-- SP, it seemed you could not hear us. (Maybe you can assess that trait and see if you have it in other places in your life. I'm betting you do

Oh, and Your view that filing would bring any type of closure or stop the pain, is a common myth. Sad, but the process can't be speeded up by external situational changes (but they help get your mind off things now & then)

TIME will help you, and GAL...

Then again, by filing you seemed to gain some clarity, even if it's not the clarity you wanted, and maybe the clarity would c about b/c of actions you regret...which just means you need to Learn from mistakes.

When You file for divorce and the M ends, you'll always wonder what might have happened if you had taken different advice....

While we can play that regret game all day if we let ourselves, we should not.

We have to BE HERE NOW...not wallowing in our past mistakes and not catastrophizing about the future.

I feel the longer one can wait, the less emotion there will be. That will allow better decisions to be made, and it will be at a time where you will be better prepared to deal with the issues at hand.

Yes...well, I GAL and detached, and we were sep for over 2 years! So my time line was always a bit longer...

Good luck SP, and I hope this helps you both a little. We are all playing things by ear.

SP, next time a bunch of people seem to be saying the same thing and you find yourself still explaining, and still you are not convincing anyone to change their mind, even after 4 different ways of wording it,

look in the mirror and force yourself to STRONGLY consider the possibility of changing Your mind.
Good luck

I didn't mean to hijack, 2olds thread, but thank you 25. I am improving and working on my self growth every day. I may be a slow student, but I am learning

25, really fantastic response on the subject of dating, I'm going to bookmark it as the question comes up a lot on the forums but rarely gets answered in a definitive way.

On the subject of dating someone that doesn't like kids, I really don't get that either. I would rather just not date than date someone that can't be any less than loving towards my kids. My brother's ex left him for a man that hates ALL kids. What amazes me about people that don't like kids is that they think they are experts on how to raise kids, and of course everything any parent does is WRONG in their eyes. OM and brother's ex are constantly fighting about the kids, IN FRONT of the kids. It's gotten so bad that now after 5 years of dating the ex told the OM that he can't come to her house anymore. But she is STILL dating him! Shaking my head.

Originally Posted By: suckerpunch

I didn't mean to hijack, 2olds thread, but thank you 25. I am improving and working on my self growth every day. I may be a slow student, but I am learning

I believe you SP, I really do. But keep it in mind when it happens again. Anyhow, I will stop by your thread.

Never worried about hijacking threads SP..The more knowledge we gather from others experience's the better equipped we become to deal with our own sitch's. With that said, as I continue to seek knowledge in handling my owm sitch a rare contact from my WAS was received Saturday. A short cold 2 sentence email announcing the death of her dad, my FIL.

The man and I got along very very well. He really was a kindly old man who was 84 at the time of his death Saturday. No other info was offered from her except she acknowledged how "fond" I was of him. Maybe fond is an appropriate description in her mind but in all honesty she knows it was a more than that. My response was "This is sad news, I'm sorry. Thank you for letting me know."

Even if I was given the details of the funeral I would not be able to attend. It will be several hundred miles away and since I am not being provided the arrangements it is a clear signal WAS does not want me there. The coldness continues but I am okay with that anymore.

2,

Very sorry to hear of your FIL's passing. You CAN and probably should send something to his wife or "the family" and express your sorrow with some specific examples of what you loved about him.

Or just say you loved him. Whatever. IT's a classy thing the old man deserves. And don't forget, there is a distinct chance HE said a thing or two to his daughter about her choices, before he passed away. ((( )))

My sincere condolences, 2!
I agree with 25 on sending a card or likewise.
Take care!

F

Thank you 25 and F. I did find the obituary and left a message on the guest book to the entire family. There are 10 siblings altogether so it is a rather large family. My MIL passed 2 years ago and my WAS did not attend her funeral. Being such a large family as one might envision there was some who did not get along, hard feelings and a good amount of turmoil from over the years etc. This is what she used to not attend her mothers funeral. Her and I had talked at length about this but her decision was final.

I was just told WAS did not attend her Dad's funeral this morning either. Although I am not completely surprised I am also not understanding of how she could choose to not attend this as she truly loved him. Of ten siblings she was the only daughter/sister. The same family members however were also in charge of these arrangements as they did with thier Mom so it seems the family strife continues.

Through the obit I was able to get the details of the funeral etc. Dick was a very kind elderly man and he and I were close. He was 84 years old and died from lung and bone cancer. He survived cancer of the sinus cavities in the late 80's after a long period of surgeries/treatments.

It does sting somewhat that no further info was offered to me over the past few days. I responded to WAS 2 sentence email to me announcing FILs death quite pleasantly. Saying this was sad news, I'm sorry and thanking her for letting me know.

And no 25, he did not talk with her before his passing. As a matter of fact they had no contact since his wife/her mothers passing....

No contact since her mom's death? And she has that many siblings ALL of whom do not contact her?

Wow...nothing odd there...

Old,

Heard you calling my name. Here I am!

Wow. Your W is truly lost. I think you're doing good with the dropping the rope and letting her walk on her own path. How have you been doing? How's the GAL activities going for you?

2old, my condolences also for your FIL.

I still feel we are both on the same track/story here. I know over the months we have talked about this and while the sitch's are still different, the actions by our W's are very similar.
Based on your iceberg reference in my topic, I think we are continuing on the same wavelength still. That is the smallest chip of the iceberg, using a pin.
The moving on, changing our lives and actions, being a better man is making our lives so much better. It doesn't mean we don't want the W's to be part of our lives every again. But if they aren't, then so bit it, life goes on.
2old, should be great catching up soon.

Thanx H, the old man was a great guy...And hello Wonka! I've been keeping up with your posts to others. Things have been good until the recent death of my FIL. And the iceberg is as frozen as ever but letting me know in a 2 sentence email about her dads passing was at least descent. If it wasn't for the online obit however I wouldn't of known much more.

Anyway's, things have improved all around with me. There are yet a few down times. However, I have no choice but to accept things for the way they are. My WAS is on her own journey of which I want no part of. My own journey is to continue to learn and grow. To accept my share of the blame for whats happened and move forward.

Funny how things take on a different perspective with time.

You're REAL quiet, 2?