OK – foolishly it’s been awhile since I posted here. Have continued to lurk and read other’s stories which has been helpful and nothing much has changed in my situation but I think it will be helpful to try and get back to posting……
I guess there has been one new development (which I think is part of the script but not sure – would love to hear from some of the more experienced vets). Quick synopsis of my situation – this part of the story began 2.5 – 3 years ago with first B-date. There have been a couple of other B-dates since then but then things seem to find a stabilization point for awhile.
This past Tues morning in conversation w/W for the first time she made the statement that she “was not sure that I have ever really been in love with you.” Devastating to hear even though I realize that this is often part of the script…… We talked for a bit and she shared that she wasn’t sure that leaving was going to make her feel “happy” and “have the ability to smile again” but that she was willing to take the risk anyway. W has said before that she no longer has loving / marriage feelings but this new statement may indicate something different. Any sense for what this means in terms of where she is at in her journey? Why does this statement hurt again given the other things she has already said?
I didn’t argue with her about it but did stupidly tell her that I wanted her to be happy also and that I hoped at some point that she could see a different way to approach things. For those that have kept up with my story (bless you for that) she has continued to be unwilling to do anything else or investigate any other things that could potentially be contributing factors.
Thanks for any insight or thoughts…………
I thought about posting to you this week to say Hey, let us know what's up.
I was hoping for more positive but news we live the life that's in front of us.
As I look back on my married life with my H, I haven't always been "in love" with him, I haven't always been happy in the marriage. There were periods of time when everything he did irritated me.
When we are chronically unhappy or depressed, I don't know that your W is depressed is but it seems a real possibility, we tend to only recall those negative memories. We also buy into the myth that we should be happy all the time and if we aren't there's something wrong. We usually look to blame that on others. Until she's willing to look inward, she's not going to find the root of her unhappiness.
But you can't do anything about that.
What do you want to do at this point?
I thought about posting to you this week to say Hey, let us know what's up.
I was hoping for more positive but news we live the life that's in front of us.
Thanks for the kind welcome back to the board. Guess the cosmos was speaking to me through you and that’s why I chose now to come back and post again….
As I look back on my married life with my H, I haven't always been "in love" with him, I haven't always been happy in the marriage. There were periods of time when everything he did irritated me.
When we are chronically unhappy or depressed, I don't know that your W is depressed is but it seems a real possibility, we tend to only recall those negative memories. We also buy into the myth that we should be happy all the time and if we aren't there's something wrong. We usually look to blame that on others. Until she's willing to look inward, she's not going to find the root of her unhappiness.
Makes complete sense to me that level of love/satisfaction varies throughout any long-term R. That’s why love is a choice and takes work and effort. W’s other comment during the most recent conversation was that she has finally found her voice and can now stand up for herself – in her current thinking that’s why she wants to leave so that she can be true to who she really believes herself to be. I think that right now she would say that she has looked inward for the first time and all this is a result of that. Personally, I think it sounds very selfish and that there is much more left to be explored - and yes I know that sounds judgmental but that is where I am at currently. I really do want her to be happy but am really struggling with the impact that this will have on the boys.
But you are right – nothing I can do about that until (or if) she is ever ready and open so on to
But you can't do anything about that.
What do you want to do at this point?
I want to be the best father than I can be and as much as possible spare my kids the pain that I think this could introduce to them. In addition I would really like to understand why I continue to feel guilty and beat myself up about a choice W is making and why I keep looking for alternate solutions…….. Intellectually I understand now that I will be ok (at some point) but cannot always seem to keep my feelings/emotions in synch with that understanding.
In addition, I want to be in a loving caring R with someone and to be able to share life experiences. Ideally at this points still with W but that seems to be waning……
Labug (and others), thanks for your continued interest and comments. The support and advice is invaluable - and much appreciated.....
Just catching up with getting this new thread started. Adding links to previous threads for background and continuity....
1st thread -
Trying to Save 2nd thread -
Still Trying to Save (now including myself) 3rd thread -
Still Trying to Save (..not broken, just bent..)
Makes complete sense to me that level of love/satisfaction varies throughout any long-term R. That’s why love is a choice and takes work and effort. W’s other comment during the most recent conversation was that she has finally found her voice and can now stand up for herself – in her current thinking that’s why she wants to leave so that she can be true to who she really believes herself to be. I think that right now she would say that she has looked inward for the first time and all this is a result of that. Personally, I think it sounds very selfish and that there is much more left to be explored - and yes I know that sounds judgmental but that is where I am at currently. I really do want her to be happy but am really struggling with the impact that this will have on the boys.
When the needs of 2 people don't coincide, it does feel selfish when on decides to attempt to meet their needs.
Is she making plans to move on?
Do you have an IC? It sounds as if you have a need to figure out where that guilt is coming from.
labug, thanks for the comments.
She says that she is making plans to move on (and has stated that in the past during this 2.5 - 3 year adventure). The two new things in the most recent discussion were that her next step after adopting our nephew was to file for D and that she is not sure she has ever really been in love - and if she ever was she does not know when that feeling changed.
Went to an IC for quite awhile and the place we got to was that loyalty, commitment, family and faith were important to who I am as a person (all great traits - both he and I agreed on that). That's why this is so painful for me. And the fact that what was role modeled for me was staying together and working thru problems - not giving up and leaving w/o trying everything, particularly when others are involved and will be impacted. Sort of a "serve the greater good concept".......
At the end it seemed to come down to accept that others can/will make choices that impact me and the kids that I don't agree with. The key is figuring out how to deal with that and understand that I cannot be responsible for everything.
My sense is that is what helped a great deal in getting me to mentally process things but doesn't always work in keeping the feelings and the heart lined up.
Hopefully that makes sense.........
Not too much new,
W was at sister's for the weekend. Had a good low key wind with boys. Didn't do too much- one had friend over, a little yard work, went to mass and grabbed lunch afterwards. Enjoyable but low key. Interesting though now, can feel a little stress building up as it gets closer to her coming back home.
Sad, used to very much miss her and look forward to her coming back. Wonder if this feelings are to be expected?????
Happy Veteran's Day to all who served!
Couple of random thoughts this morning……..
W came back from weekend @ sister’s house. Nothing much changed – @ one point asked her if she had fun and she grimaced and started to say something but then seemed to catch herself and said that they had a good time. I believe that she was going to say something about it not being about having fun…… Sister invited her down to help “clean her closet/basement” because her H was going to be out of town….. Not sure what to read into that so just trying to let it go……..
Football season is over now so I have more time to “think/reflect” on things…… Not sure that’s a completely good thing though????
S15 has begun to volunteer at assisted living home a couple times a week for a few hours each time through a club at school – talking to the folks there and playing in Wii tournaments with them - very proud of him for that and have made sure that he knows that!
Lady stopped the boys and I after Mass this weekend and said thanks for helping her to have a positive experience at church – not sure what the specifics were but felt good that something we did seemed to help her. And that she took the time to say something about it….. Don't remember her specific words but something about helping her to see Jesus at work - or something like that.....
Also couple of wknds ago went out with a group of guys on my birthday to a local establishment and learned how to play darts – Cricket specifically….. Lots of fun – amazing that it took me this long to figure that out…..
Well, I knew they were a bunch of random thoughts. Journaling here to get them out of my head so I can get on with work……
Still an odd feeling about situation with W. Like I am more ready for her to move on and for me to move even more forward…….. Not sure that I like it – and not sure what to do with it???? And trying to understand if this just part of the process???
SF, Happy 238th Birthday!
I think that taking time, GALing and self work helps to get our emotions in check and allows us to recover from the shock and awe of BD. As we adapt to life as a "single" person we can see that it's not so bad and as we gain confidence we become more comfortable with life in the territory outside of married couple.
Your W may be done or she may only think she's done, who knows. Most likely she doesn't either because she's still there. The important question is, are you done? You have the power here. Sometimes it's hard to feel that, but you do.
Yes, H and I are working at being together more but I truly don't know what that will look like. I was happy with my life, really, and adding someone into the mix fulltime gives me a bit of concern. But I'm just taking it a day at a time.
I think you're detaching and it may feel weird, almost disloyal. Don't make a job of staying married, make a job of living life and see what happens.
Sounds like your sons are fine young men.
Hey SemperFi00, sorry you find yourself here again.
You are doing a great job with yourself and kids! Unfortunately there is not much you can do about your W feelings. Your traits of loyalty, commitment, family are very noble ones and they are yours not hers. Sounds like she is in a very thick fog or even depressed. There is no way she never loved you in your 22 years together.
Its been a long ride for you, hang in there bud!
Happy Veteran's Day to all who served!
To you, as well (belated).
And also to you, happy birthday (also belated)!
Semper Fi!
-PM
Until she's willing to look inward, she's not going to find the root of her unhappiness.
But you can't do anything about that.
What Bug said ^^^
And their is no guarantee this will ever happen.
Thanks for the comments labug, Maritimer, PM and SIAS, appreciate you taking the time for that.
Also forgot to mention that on Sunday (Corps bd) grabbed a bottle and a couple of shot glasses and went to a neighbor’s house for a quick toast. We had been saying for a few years that we needed to do it and neither of us took the initiative until this year. We chatted for about 30 mins and agreed that next year we should do it again somewhere. He and his W seemed appreciative that I came over.
Will try to provide a bit more of an update later……..
Semper Fi!
Forgot to mention something that I would love to get some insight on from folks here………
In conversation last Tues, W also stated that after adoption of nephew is finalized “I know what comes next.”
When I asked what that meant she stated she would be filing for D after that process is completed. I kind of suspected that she may be thinking this but this is the first time she has verbalized it……. Not sure exactly what this means but I guess it provides a little more context in why she has been pushing for this more lately…….
Bit of background for those who may not be aware – S8 is actually nephew and has lived with us since he was 2. My brother and ex had him young and were too selfish to have child – went to stay with my parents for a few months and then on to us. Temporarily at first but after about a year we assumed would be longer Also, neither birth parent will contest the adoption.
Talked to L a while back and he termed this situation as “interesting” in the context of what W may be planning. Obviously if adoption is completed first he would be treated as 1 of 3 Ss for custody, child support, etc….. If not formally adopted, very murky how it would be handled given how long he has already been with us and no real support/interaction from bio parents…
Seems like adoption is right thing to do (for him) but have questions about what it may mean for him emotionally in the future, what to tell guardian ad-lietem during process, what to share in court, etc….
Thoughts or insights from anyone here – more of an outsider’s view of situation?
Also should have mentioned that we have a court date for the adoption on 11/27 - having not been through the process before I am not sure if it will the only one of the first of many.....
And S8 has been diagnosed with apraxia which causes him to need some additional help when learning new tasks, skills, etc....
I know that the conventional wisdom on the board is not to assist with D proceedings (not to resist either - just staying as neutral as possible) - any experiences or thoughts around using the same techniques for adoptions?
Arghhhhh......... this really stinks at times!
I'm still confused as to why you think, or seem to think the adoption is a negative?
Tell us your thoughts, you really don't share those much. You ask lots of questions and seek input, which is good but what are you thinking? Are you angry that she wants to adopt this boy who she's raised for 6 years?
What is your true concern here?
Good questions labug. Need some time to reflect and then will post back. Thanks for the ?s though - appreciate that.
In conversation last Tues, W also stated that after adoption of nephew is finalized “I know what comes next.”
When I asked what that meant she stated she would be filing for D after that process is completed.
If it's her intent to file for D, then why is she letting the adoption proceed? Does she want partial custody of him? It just seems like that adds an extra layer of complexity to the D.
AS thanks for the comments. W hasn't directly stated ^^^^^ but I feel relatively certain that is why she wants the adoption to take place 1st. She and S8 are close - as most young children are with their mothers - and I would guess that she wants to make sure that she has partial custody of him.
labug, have thought a great deal about your questions above and here are some of the thoughts rattling around my head right now:
- It is the right thing to do to formally adopt my nephew. His birth parents are not fighting it and we are really the only family he knows at this point.
- From a legal perspective, if W ends up filing for D it adds one more child to "legally" provide for, complexity to proceedings, etc....
- From a "moral" perspective it changes little, we are already (and have been) providing for him with no support from birth parents
- My sense is that children are best developed by being in an intact loving family that provides lots of support. Historically W has agreed/said same things but in the current situation has changed her story on that a bit.
- At some point will S8 have questions/struggle with feelings and trying to understand why he had two families he was a part of that couldn't stay together, etc....
- I am not sure what to say to the guardian ad lietum when she does the family interview and home study
- How do we approach getting him baptized after the adoption in the context of our current situation
I am not so much angry that W wants to adopt who we have raised for 6 years, if anything I may be a bit angry (and hurt) about the overall situation and how selfish W is acting right now.
And her current unwillingness to do things that could result in some sort of reconciliation..... Just seems that currently she is acting and viewing things through a very selfish lens......
Wow - seems like writing this all out maybe has helped a bit....
I'll stop now for a few minutes to reflect and see what thoughts/comments/insight I get from everyone here.
It might be helpful if you journaled like that more. You keep a tight lid on things, and it just keeps rattling around in your brain. Bring that stuff into the light of day and look at it. Be honest with yourself. I think you're very angry and hurt, we all have been there.
I can understand why you think she seems selfish, it's painful when we realize we've missed a chance and something important is going away. Grieving that loss is part of the process. Anger is part of the process. You have to feel it.
You're borrowing trouble from tomorrow. S8 will most likely have lots of thoughts about his circumstances as he gets older but you have no way of knowing what those will be. Having loving people around him who help him deal with that is the most important thing here. Keeping an unhappy marriage together for the sake of the kids is not a benefit to the kids.
I think what your W is doing in regards to S8 is very logical and loving. I would do the same. I'm not sure how this complicates the picture further.
About the guardian, answer questions truthfully. What else can/would you do?
What would the alternative to what she's suggesting be? (leaving out the obvious, reconciliation)
Lots to catch up – been a ways for a few days. Will try to break it up into a few posts for easy journaling and reading…….
Labug, I will start with thoughts around your most recent post.
You're borrowing trouble from tomorrow. S8 will most likely have lots of thoughts about his circumstances as he gets older but you have no way of knowing what those will be. Having loving people around him who help him deal with that is the most important thing here.
ouch! - but thanks for the reminder.
I think you're very angry and hurt, we all have been there.
I can understand why you think she seems selfish, it's painful when we realize we've missed a chance and something important is going away. Grieving that loss is part of the process. Anger is part of the process. You have to feel it.
I am feeling many emotions – angry, hurt, betrayed, sad, lied to, empathetic (for W and where she is currently at), a sense of loss and I am sure many others. Doing much better at recognizing the emotions and realizing that if I can just wait a few moments (and not react) the feelings will often wash through…… I think that’s a good thing and an improvement – I was never one to show or react based on emotion but the recognition and letting things pass through is different. I think before it was much more like “pack it away for another day” and move on……
Also, I continue to feel guilty and feel like it’s my fault somehow that W cannot find a way to work on things…. What keeps coming back to me is that it is a husband/fathers role to provide and protect – no matter what….. At times feels like I have failed in that area…….. Even though (when thinking from a less emotional state) I am aware that we are all free to make choices and that I am not the one who is choosing this path – and I cannot choose W’s path for her (as much as I would love to help her with that..)
There are also times when I see interacting with the boys – laughing, joking, having fun, acting as if everything is great – I have thoughts like “why does she want to give part of that up” “how can she act that way knowing all the pain that she will potentially be causing” I know that this may all be an act/front and on the inside she may be feeling very different - she has said that she cried herself to sleep for 2+ years getting to where she is at…….. Why is it that WAS seem to create self-inflicted misery and then often direct the blame elsewhere??
About the guardian, answer questions truthfully. What else can/would you do?
What would the alternative to what she's suggesting be? (leaving out the obvious, reconciliation)
In this scenario ^^^^, I think adoption is the best alternative (leaving out the obvious, reconciliation)
Thanks for any feedback – or 2x4s! Not feeling quite as strong or centered today.......
AS thanks for the comments. W hasn't directly stated ^^^^^ but I feel relatively certain that is why she wants the adoption to take place 1st. She and S8 are close - as most young children are with their mothers - and I would guess that she wants to make sure that she has partial custody of him.
OK, that makes more sense. I guess I would suggest clarifying with her why she is doing this, I hope it's just for more access to S8 and not for some nefarious purpose like bilking you for more child support or something. WAS's are capable of some pretty heartless stuff.
OK, that makes more sense. I guess I would suggest clarifying with her why she is doing this, I hope it's just for more access to S8 and not for some nefarious purpose like bilking you for more child support or something. WAS's are capable of some pretty heartless stuff.
AS, thanks for the comments and interest.
I really believe that W is more concerned about ensuring that there will be no problem getting time with him than child support or something else.
At least that is what I am choosing to believe - I do not think that she is the type of person who would try anything nefarious. Although, now that I type that statement, prior to all of this starting I didn't think she was the type to leave a marriage/family either - things that make you say hmmmmmmmmm........
Will continue to reflect on that a little more though.
Also, I continue to feel guilty and feel like it’s my fault somehow that W cannot find a way to work on things….
Guilt can be good, if it's in response to knowing that in some way we've hurt another person and we want to make amends for that. In this case it seems a little misplaced...why do you think you should be able to fix your W?
(A) “how can she act that way knowing all the pain that she will potentially be causing” I know that this may all be an act/front and on the inside she may be feeling very different - she has said that (B)she cried herself to sleep for 2+ years getting to where she is at…….. Why is it that WAS seem to create self-inflicted misery and then often direct the blame elsewhere??
She can do A because of B. She's an unhappy (depressed??) woman and for whatever reason, she's unable to get change that. Kids aren't better off in a depressed intact family. This is one of those situations where perhaps the most loving thing you could do is say, "I see how difficult this is for you, let's end it well for the kids and for us." (when/if she files)
What is the self-inflicted misery and who do you feel she's blaming? I remember you writing she said is was her, not you.
Guilt can be good, if it's in response to knowing that in some way we've hurt another person and we want to make amends for that. In this case it seems a little misplaced...why do you think you should be able to fix your W?
I don't think it is necessarily guilt around not being able to fix my W - more guilt about letting things get to this point. Although maybe that's just semantics because if this is her issue I guess I couldn't have prevented it from happening any more than I can "fix her" now that it has.
Part of it also I think is related to how I was raised and just good old fashioned Catholic guilt. Something like "judge the measure of a man through the countenance of his spouse" and the belief that a man is supposed to provide for his spouse and family.
Maybe it's also not guilt about trying to fix her but rather that I haven't found the right way to say or show her that staying together deserves more effort that what we have given it so far?????
She can do A because of B. She's an unhappy (depressed??) woman and for whatever reason, she's unable to get change that. Kids aren't better off in a depressed intact family. This is one of those situations where perhaps the most loving thing you could do is say, "I see how difficult this is for you, let's end it well for the kids and for us." (when/if she files)
Thanks for this perspective labug. I think that she is maybe depressed - on a low dose (20 mg) I think of an SSRI. One of the generics for Prozac. Don't understand all the ins/outs of depression but for the life of me I can't think of what she has to not be happy about. Great life ecomonically, relatively healthy, 3 healthy, well behaved children, etc......
I think she may be looking for some excitement or to feel alive versus just feeling like she is going through the motions...
Can't understand it but from what she has described I can certainly state that I would not want to be going through it.... what ever "it" is
What is the self-inflicted misery and who do you feel she's blaming? I remember you writing she said is was her, not you.
Not sure - seems at times like she doesn't want to be happy or doesn't feel like she deserves. Or something similar to that....
Maybe other contributing factors could be the fact that she is likely going thru menopause (PCP mentioned 3-4 years ago something about peri-), her F was an alcoholic who at best was emotionally distant, her parent went through D when she was younger and W didn't have much of a R w/F for several years, older two boys are 17 and 15 and need her less so not feeling as important..... All things that she has mentioned directly and indirectly at different points.
Right now, I think at some level she is blaming our R for how she feels and that is why she is saying she wants to leave. At the same time though she says that she is not sure that leaving is really going to make her happy but that if she could spend 50% of her time with kids and be happier that would be an improvement.
Have more thoughts and things I would like to journal about but this may be getting long now so going to take a break......
Thanks for the continued interest and support
Hopefully the post makes some sense and is not too rambling. Have a good Sunday everyone!
Couple of other things – just to keep consistent with the journaling……
Still after GAL activities and working hard to keep PMA (even though last few posts have been focused in a different area):
- 2 weekends ago S15 and I flew to see nephew play in final college football game. My mom met us at the airport and we all went together. Also found out it was Senior day when we got there so that was a bonus. Quick trip but lots of fun….
- A couple mornings over that past few weeks S8 has grabbed a pair of walkie-talkies and we have played around in the morning while getting ready for school – one of us upstairs/one downstairs. Amazing how sometimes the smallest things can add joy and fun in our lives…..
- Yesterday took S17 to a college workshop focused on prep, finances, etc….. he protested a bit but not too much so I think he kind of wanted to go, even though he didn’t want to say that…..
Just getting these out there – mostly as a reminder to me I guess. Feeling a little stressed with the upcoming adoption court date on Wed and in-laws being in town for TGiving.
Deep breaths and remaining consistent…
also forgot to mention one other activity from the wknd
originally had plans to go out and some fall cleanup yardwork with S16 on Saturday........
Ended up playing board games w/S8 & S16 - couple of games of Sorry with S8 and marthon Monopoly game with S8 & s16...... S16 even saw us setting it up and came in an said he also wanted to play....
Last bit of leaves will still be there a few more days but oh well right? Higher priority is spending time w/kids when they are open to it......
Your weekend with the kids sounds so grat! I love those simple times of just hanging out. S24 and I drove to the Grand Canyon after Christmas last hear for a couple of nights, we got snowed in at Williams and spent an unscheduled night there but it was so fun. He and I hadn't spent that much time together, just the 2 of us, since his brother was born. Once we got to the Canyon, there was no TV or internet access (score!) played A LOT of solitaire. That will always be a special memory for me.
Maybe it's also not guilt about trying to fix her but rather that I haven't found the right way to say or show her that staying together deserves more effort that what we have given it so far?????
That's still trying to fix. I don't know if it's guilt you're feeling or frustration that there is no fixing this. I think there's a lesson to be learned from all the difficult things we encounter in life. You don't know what's beyond this, what's in store for you.
This has been a gift for me, and that was true even before we thought of reconciliation.
Don't understand all the ins/outs of depression but for the life of me I can't think of what she has to not be happy about. Great life ecomonically, relatively healthy, 3 healthy, well behaved children, etc......
Just let me say this, about that^^^ I would ask that you educate yourself about depression. I was depressed for a long time and it's not about being happy or unhappy or what you have or don't have. It runs much deeper. The stigma and judgment that surround it is what keeps people from seeking treatment and getting better.
So let go of the judgment and find out what it's really all about. When we are judging a person, even if we never say a word, they can usually feel it.
All the things you mention are contributing factors for sure but they are hers to figure out and deal with. That doesn't mean you shouldn't educate yourself but you can't fix her. This is one of those unconditional love, support from afar situations. I think you have some empathy for her... sometimes we just have to turn things over to the Higher Power.
clarification:
This has been a gift for me, and that was true even before we thought of reconciliation.
As painful as it has been, this experience of moving through loss has been a gift to me. Even before we thought of reconciliation, I knew that.
labug, thanks for the your comments. As usual, they have given me much to contemplate over the past few days. Will respond later today. In the meantime......
Ok- so last Wed was a big day. 1st court appointment for adoption of nephew/S8.
Initial step to terminate birth parents parental rights – next date to finalize that part is now 01/22. In the meantime we have to schedule a “home study” in preparation for the adoption filing that will follow shortly after 01/22.
Even though it’s the right thing do, was still a bit nervous about what to expect etc…… Ended up going very smoothly and was a quick, few minutes…..
A couple of thoughts on the process: 1. was kind of strange to have the judge speak at us through the L and guardian ad-lietum – almost like we were spectators and 2. Amazing how different it is state to state in the process. When I went to court for the initial joint guardianship process, took much less cost and paperwork, was very quick and much more personal…….
W has not mentioned anything else about moving forward after adoption is finalized but I have to assume that is still her plan. Seems like it should be happier time in terms of finalizing the adoption given that it is such a good thing for S8 – hard to get into that spirit though with what is potentially looming afterwards…..
More to journal on TGiving and weekend activities later……
labug, have continued to think about some of the comments from your last post…… From my perspective I think you would be a great DB coach and may have missed your true calling in life….. Appreciate your continued interest and comments……..
Maybe it's also not guilt about trying to fix her but rather that I haven't found the right way to say or show her that staying together deserves more effort that what we have given it so far?????
That's still trying to fix. I don't know if it's guilt you're feeling or frustration that there is no fixing this. I think there's a lesson to be learned from all the difficult things we encounter in life. You don't know what's beyond this, what's in store for you.
I think you may be on to something here ^^^^. Maybe it isn’t really so much guilt (I think that I have begun to come to grips with the fact that I can really only control my efforts to improve) and now is more a sense of frustration that there is only so much that I can do to help and support her – and it may not be enough.
Also some real sadness seeing her in such a tough and conflicted spot??? As others here have articulated, I don’t like being where I am currently at but neither would I want to trade places with where W is currently at…..
And you are absolutely correct - don't know what is in store moving forward.......
Don't understand all the ins/outs of depression but for the life of me I can't think of what she has to not be happy about. Great life ecomonically, relatively healthy, 3 healthy, well behaved children, etc......
Just let me say this, about that^^^ I would ask that you educate yourself about depression. I was depressed for a long time and it's not about being happy or unhappy or what you have or don't have. It runs much deeper. The stigma and judgment that surround it is what keeps people from seeking treatment and getting better.
So let go of the judgment and find out what it's really all about. When we are judging a person, even if we never say a word, they can usually feel it.
Will work on getting a better understanding of depression. I am sure there is much to search on. The internet is a wonderful thing....... And this may also line up with some of here initial comments when going to IC. She started by saying that she went because she knew that she had everything in the world to feel happy/thankful about but couldn't/didn't feel that way and therefore felt that she was "broken".
All the things you mention are contributing factors for sure but they are hers to figure out and deal with. That doesn't mean you shouldn't educate yourself but you can't fix her. This is one of those unconditional love, support from afar situations. I think you have some empathy for her... sometimes we just have to turn things over to the Higher Power.
^^^^ Yes, yes, yes! Need to keep referring and commit to memory.
So Tgiving weekend activities were a little mixed……
Had some time off work (W-T-F & M) and we drove down W’s sister’s place on Thurs and Fri. W’s whole family was there – (sister and her H, mom, StepD, step brother and his fiance’, brother and all the nieces and nephews, etc……).
Different physical location than the past few years – but much of the same interactions around eating, watching football, telling stories, cooking, shopping, playing pool, playing football, etc… One difference was that when we left the house both days W began to move back to being more distant and less interactive….
I had made up mind that I was going to act like myself regardless of current situation and where W was at emotionally and I think for the most part I was able to do that. But I would be lying if I didn’t admit to the fact that on a couple of occasions I was thinking I could really end up missing this and wished that W could begin to reach out and allow us to build something new….
One really weird action on her part that I didn’t understand – all the adults and older children were in the dining room eating Tgiving dinner and W chose to sit in the kitchen w/kids versus eating with the rest of us. I asked her 1x to join us and let her know that there was plenty of room – unknown to me her S also had same conversation 2x w/her. After dinner, as we were all telling stories and stating what we were thankful for she came in for a few minutes. BIL made a point of recognizing that she joined us and tried to get her to state what she was thankful for but to no avail………
W’s reaction seemed very strange to me but the difference in my behavior was that I asked/offered and then left it up to her. In the past- if she had done something similar - I think that I would have asked multiple times and tried to convince her to join us. I wish that she would have joined us but I didn’t get overly concerned about it or allow her reaction to influence how I interacted with the rest of them.
Don’t quite know/understand how I feel about how I handled that situtation – many different thoughts on it. Doesn’t feel good that she didn’t want to engage with the rest of us, sad that she is in such a tough conflicted spot right now, stronger because I was able to not over react, a little more distant myself and not sure at times where I want things to go, etc ..........
Oh well, more to reflect on and experiences to grow from I guess………
Sounds like you handled it fine, especially in not badgering her about her choice of place to sit.
You don't know that she was feeling or why she chose to sit where she did. I've been at family gatherings where I would have preferred to sit with the kids. They can be more fun.
The thing is, you respected her choice.
Sounds like you handled it fine, especially in not badgering her about her choice of place to sit.
You don't know that she was feeling or why she chose to sit where she did. I've been at family gatherings where I would have preferred to sit with the kids. They can be more fun.
The thing is, you respected her choice.
Thanks labug. I know it was her choice, just like not doing anything for her 50th was her choice and I honored that too.
Have this nagging suspicion though that at some point it will come back to bite me or be used against me though. Although as others here have said, during these times it doesn't matter what the LBS does - in many cases the WAS can use either response to rationalize their actions.
The vibe at the TGiving dinner decision seemed to be more about getting some sort of attention or trying to make a point. But either way, it was W choice and I honored that.....
No fun though - arghh!!!!
Couple of other things just to catch up on some journaling
• Cut our own Christmas tree for the first year in a long time the Sunday after TGiving – S17 didn’t want to go so I let him know that I really wanted him to go but that if he was going to be unpleasant he could stay at home and we would bring the tree back. W also rolled her eyes somewhat sarcastically when I suggested going to get a tree - wanted to say “same goes for you” but instead drank a big ‘ol glass of STFU and we all had a pretty good time (in-laws also went along).
• Have been slowly getting the house decorated for Christmas – would love for it to be a family event but others have joined in to help at different points in time. Last night S17 said – “”you guys did a really nice job decorating” as we pulled out of the driveway. W asked me to leave the wondown lights and wreaths down and she would take care of it so I did – 3-4 days later just ended up doing it myself and didn’t say anything (again sometimes STFU can come in handy)
• S15 made Fresh basketball team – 1st time on a school basketball team so not sure how the playing time will be allocated but proud of him no matter what happens
Becoming increasingly frustrated at what I view as the lack of “equitable” distribution of family work items / responsibilities. Feels like we are eating out more often, that less housework is getting done, less awareness of $$$ outflow, W not engaged in decorating or Christmas shopping, etc….
Haven’t said anything to her yet while I try to figure out what it is that I am really feeling. Maybe just an increased sense of anxiety/tension.longing because it’s the holiday season…….
Just really su#$% at this moment today – although S15 and I did go shopping yesterday and we managed to put up some of the outdoor decorations on Sat before the snow started. Both were very enjoyable!
Used to love amusement parks - not this roller coaster though!!
The holidays add stress to most people's lives and depression usually worsens (not diagnosing but she has a lot of the signs)
Do you feel that you have to do more housekeeping and she isn't doing her share?
How important to you is the other stuff? I used to get all hung up on all the Christmas stuff and baking and cards and decorating and on and on. I was so stressed I didn't enjoy the season much. Now I have a very small tree, but it's beautiful and put out about 5 small decorations in the house. The outside got lights this year because S20 wanted to do it.I don't bake unless I want to, and send cards to people I really care about, this year I think there were 5. I also don't do a lot of shopping. Several years ago I turned the shopping for H's family over to him.
Why did you hang the wreaths W asked you to leave?
If I want to do it, I do it. I don't have an expectation that someone else will do it if I don't. It may not be important to anyone else.
Thanks labug for the comments and continued interest.
Sorry for the delayed response - have been a little out of pocket and trying to just enjoy some down time away from work and with the kids.
The holidays add stress to most people's lives and depression usually worsens (not diagnosing but she has a lot of the signs)
Do not worry at all about diagnosing - I think that there is clearly something there in this space but doesn't really matter much until W recognizes or wants to get help. She already takes a generic for prozac (has been for several years)
At least 2x in the last 2 weeks she has been crying for what appears to be no reason at all. Both times I have asked if there is something I can help with and when she states no, have left it at that.
Different for me - in the past I would have pushed to try adn get her to tell me what was wrong or to try and see how I could help.
Maybe this is part of detachment???? Being present and willing to help if needed / wanted while at the same time providing some space / distance so they can be responsible for themselves?
Do you feel that you have to do more housekeeping and she isn't doing her share?
Yes - although not just housework. Also making less meals and instead picking up take-out more, in general just spending less time doing anything at home.......
I guess probably just part of the script and I am getting more used to it. After all, if she moves forward with her plans I will have to take care of all those things anyway, right????
How important to you is the other stuff? I used to get all hung up on all the Christmas stuff and baking and cards and decorating and on and on. I was so stressed I didn't enjoy the season much. Now I have a very small tree, but it's beautiful and put out about 5 small decorations in the house. The outside got lights this year because S20 wanted to do it.I don't bake unless I want to, and send cards to people I really care about, this year I think there were 5. I also don't do a lot of shopping. Several years ago I turned the shopping for H's family over to him.
Why did you hang the wreaths W asked you to leave?
Not as important as in past years. Took a very similar approach as you describe this year and seemed to work out ok. Wish others had been more engaged but all seemed to work out fine.
Did what I could for decorating, shopping, wrapping but also took time to just watch Christmas movies w/S8, etc.... And was fairly sucessful in not getting stressed about what wasn't getting done.
I ended up hanging the wreaths and lights in the windows because I had done other decorations and wanted to get them either hung or put away. Waited about 4-5 days to give W plenty of opportunity (w/o saying anything else) and then just took care of it while she was out one evening. Curious why you asked about that specifically?
Wishing everyone here a (belated) Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Different for me - in the past I would have pushed to try adn get her to tell me what was wrong or to try and see how I could help.
Maybe this is part of detachment???? Being present and willing to help if needed / wanted while at the same time providing some space / distance so they can be responsible for themselves?
Yes, it is detachment.
After all, if she moves forward with her plans I will have to take care of all those things anyway, right????
That's a fact I learned very quickly when H left. You accept the reality and do the best you can.
Took similar approach as you describe this year and seemed to work out ok.
Focus on this:
seemed to work out ok I was amazed to learn that even without all my fretting and worrying, things worked out fine.
took time to just watch Christmas movies w/S8, etc.... And was fairly successful in not getting stressed about what wasn't getting done.
Good for you and S8. Those are the times that kids remember, not how many wreaths were hung. Focus on the interactions.
I ended up hanging the wreaths and lights in the windows because I had done other decorations and wanted to get them either hung or put away. Waited about 4-5 days to give W plenty of opportunity (w/o saying anything else) and then just took care of it while she was out one evening. Curious why you asked about that specifically?
Because she asked you to leave them...and you didn't. I think these sentences might say a lot about you and your growth through this:
And was fairly sucessful in not getting stressed about what wasn't getting done. (and)Wish others had been more engaged but all seemed to work out fine.
Don't let your happiness be dictated by others.
Happy New Year to you!
Remember these words from you: seemed to work out ok
Hi SemperFi00,
I picked up on your thread and am just working to catch up on your sitch. I won't bug you with questions until I get through it but wanted to go ahead and offer encouragement. I'm 3 1/2 years post-BD with a W who has depression and has handled it in some pretty destructive ways. We're doing the room mate thing as well but in different rooms. Your posts bring back a lot of memories of not knowing what I'd be coming home to; a messy house or uber-organized. A W whose 2 to 3 days in bed, always being ready to fix meals or do whatever was needed. It's a lot.
You're right. You could be in a sitch to be doing all that anyway so doing what you can do can be therapeutic. I'm a slow reader so it may take me a while to catch up but again, just wanted to say "hi" and hope you're doing well in the new year.
Thanks for checking in ces67. Appreciate the support.
Its tough and we all do what we can to make it through and come out on the other side as a better person - or at least more wise and self aware........
Have started to catch up on your sitch and see lots of similarities - unfortunately. One of the big things that I see as different is the presence of OM. I don't have that - at least not that I am aware of. Have some suspicions of an EA earlly in my timeline but nothing W has admitted to....
Anyway thanks for checking in and I will comment once I catch up on your situation......
Thoughts and prayers with all here.......
It has been a while since I last posted on my own thread – guess I needed a break for awhile but sure didn’t expect it to be such a long one.
So much has happened in the last few months and also so little……………….. I continue to GAL, learn about detachment and grow stronger by the day (at least on most days that is how I feel).
• Nothing much has changed in W’s demeanor or outlook (at least not that she is sharing)
• We continue to move forward with finalizing adoption of our nephew
• We have attended two family weddings (one of which resulted with us driving from NH to GA thru a significant winter storm because of airport closings – that was interesting in and of itself. In a sort of National Lampoon way!)
• Working with S18 on prep for the SAT and college selection
• Spring has sprung in the great white north so able to begin getting out to do some yard work which I enjoy
• S16 won a state competition with his team and will be traveling to a global event at the end of May
All in all, not a bad few months just seems like more of same. I am beginning to wonder what if anything will change the situation and struggling with how to continue to stand for M while living with a WAW who has not physically left the house.
I find that I can detach better now and not ride the roller coaster but I sure at times feel really sad about the situation overall. And at times also wonder why W does not seem like an effort at building a new relationship is worthwhile. But who knows, tomorrow is a new day and feelings can change right???
Have been reading others’ threads over the past few days and something that has stood out to me a few times is the notion the LBS lose the respect of WAS by not standing up for themselves more and establishing stronger boundaries. In most cases this seems to come up when an active A is involved which is not my situation (at least not that I know of).
Not sure why exactly, but not feeling great about things right now and thought I would write here to try and see if that helps work some things out.
Thoughts, comments, 2x4s, reminders, jokes – all appreciated!
Feeling a little better today but as hard as I try to get my mojo back, still haven’t completely gotten back to where I had been over the past few weeks. And not sure what has been different over last couple of days.
Previous few weeks I believe I had done well in living the mantra that I was standing for M because it was important to me and values and had been fairly detached regarding interactions (or lack of) w/W.
Had even begun to more seriously than ever contemplate whether I was ready to ask her to make a decision – regardless of which direction that may have driven things. I think also experiencing some resentment and anger about the way I am being treated and don’t like that feeling either.
I hate the way these thoughts made/make me feel but am also really beginning to think that the only chance of building a new R is for W to truly experience the loss of family and M. It has also been awhile since I have felt this way so trying to really understand where this is coming from and trying not to react from an overly emotional state.
Also sense that some feelings of insecurity and lack of worthiness are circling around. Don’t like those visitors either.
Ughh!!!!!!
A little better today – thought of some things that may be contributing to me being in a funk the last couple of days:
• Post holiday letdown – although Easter is not one of my favorites
• Kids (and W) are on school break this week – think I may actually be a bit jealous (and angry) about the fact that W appears to be having nice, relaxing, fun and happy week off bonding with kids while I am getting up every day and going to work to provide
• Adoption process required another $1k for retainer and is getting closer to being finalized – and last update from W was that this is the final step in her mind before filing
Two other general comments/feelings:
• In general a sense of frustration that W seems happy and ok with the situation and what states she is going to do – apparently completel oblivious or ignoring the pain being caused to others (although I know that WAS generally act in a very selfish manner)
• A sense that I am being taken advantage and being overly nice and accommodating to all of the W’s current craziness
Seems to me that for the past couple of years W has continued to enjoy all of the benefits of the R and family without being willing to engage in any meaningful way…….. And the opposite for me – seems that I have continued to play the role of H, father, provider, etc because that is part of my values without getting the benefits of being in a loving, caring R.
Very frustrating!!!!!
So what is SF going to do?
Hah - that is the $1m ? isn't it.
I had been able to operate from a place of compassion and patience for quite awhile. Staying focused on the boys, positive aspects of my current situation and giving W time to work thru whatever she needs to.
For reasons I don't yet understand, a few days ago my feelings reverted back to earlier times and I guess I started (and participated in) a self-pity party.
For now my immediate actions are to keep up w/GAL activities, continuing being the best father I can be and continuing to work on making myself a better person.
Also trying to understand what the trigger was for the change in feelings.
Thanks for checking in labug.
Journaling a little more.....
Last night while driving home from work W called and asked if I could pick dog up from vet. She had plans to go out with a girlfriend for dinner and drinks @ 6p which was the same time the vet suggested for pickup.
I had been a little frustrated/jealous that she was going out and was a little aggravated that she called me at 545 for the vet pickup but I agreed to do it anyway since it wasn't that far out of the way and it seemed petty to be annoyed and feeling like I was only there for her convenience when needed.
When I got there one of the ladies at the counter said "your W is such a ray of sunshine when she comes into the office and we all really enjoy her so much. You must be a really good husband to keep her so happy!"
I thanked her (after almost coking on my soda) and thought to myself Wow - really universe? What message is that supposed to be?
This morning feel kind of mixed about the whole thing - great that someone could recognize (even though inadvertently) that I am a great guy but also frustrated that seems like the rest of the world gets W's good side and what I am getting right now is the cold, distant and dark parts.......
Couple of other thoughts that have been rattling around that I want to get down here……
- S17 recently made comment to me that he was “sorry mom is blowing you off”. He didn’t’ elaborate much, just said he had noticed that I was trying to help and she was basically ignoring me. My response included 3 things: 1. Very happy that he was sharing with me 2. Thanked hime for noticing and told him that I loved him 3. Sometimes situations are difficult and people are not always ready for help – all you can do is offer and let them decide.
- W needs to pay for lodging for her trip accompying S15 to Global competition. Event coordinator has sent a couple of emails over past weeks asking for payment so that registration can be completed for team. I asked W if she had seen the first one and have not asked again. I mention this because it is a 180 for me – in the past I would have kept pushing and reminding her and probably eventually ended up sending the check myself. Trying to let her be responsible for her own things – and also interested to see how she pays for things…….
- Initiated a discussion w/W a couple of weeks ago asking for her thoughts on having wood floors in house refinished. A few places where pretty worn and will be disruptive both in terms of timing and potentially cost. She made sort of a weird face and said we should think about it later. I have left it alone since then……… I am trying to build up to the point where I can engage her in conversation about how to pay – my sense given current situation is that it would be very fair to ask her to contribute some $$$ from her individual acct
Thoughts any of the scenarios or my approach?
Hello SemperFi00,
I just started following your sitch and I am not a vet on these forums myself but for some reason I was compelled to say hi. Although my own sitch has recently taken a bit of a turn for the better (and by recent I mean within the last few days) and is nothing in complexity compared to what I have read of yours, I can definitely feel your pain on the side of a WAS that is cold and seems to make things seem so easy. What I can say is that this forum talks about believing none of what S does and only 50 percent of what they say in their current state. I would think this could very well be a door that swings to outsiders looking in as well. She may be able to put on a strong front in the public eye and it might seem that everyone else gets the nice side of your W but it is still very possible that with her depression and anger, all these people are getting is her best mask.
I am not sure how serious you were in your comment about universal messages but to some degree I believe we get messages and signs all the time. Sometimes these signs are very small like seeing a purple butterfly go by while we are deep in a certain thought and other times they hit us across the face like a sledge hammer such as a wife that walks out the door. Sometimes they might not even be signs at all but merely coincidence. Either way these signs are very hard to interpret and often they end up being used by us the receivers as more like fortune cookies where we decide what we want them to be. Our current state of mind helps to push these decisions. All of that to say that given your current situation and all that you have been through you will definitely need to be cautious as to how you interpret your signs moving forward.
The last thing I have for you is that I think looking deep into yourself to find that root cause would be most helpful. I have not read all of your threads so I am not sure what you have already done on your journey but my thread has a post on the first page recommending some books and several of them helped me to further pin point what I feel my own root issues are. You cannot put all situations into one size fits all so they may not all be for you but I was able to find that I was fairly emotionally abusive to my W and that this may be due to me having a kind of personality disorder. With this information I can now get more pin pointed help for my own issues that will be needed regardless of whether or not my wife returns to me.
Well I don’t know if any of my ramblings are helpful but I just felt the need to reach out. Maybe it is because you are a fellow service man or maybe it is another message for one or both of us to receive.
Good luck bud and I will check back in.
Soldier thanks for checking in and commenting on my story. Don’t worry at all about being a vet or not – all comments and thoughts are appreciated….. Will check in on your story a little later. Good for you that you have already identified some of the things that may have been problems and I am always looking for good reading materials.
In my circumstance, as best as I can tell at this point W believes that we just sort of grew apart and got overly focused on the kids and paid little attention to us. Now doesn’t believe feelings can change and is not willing to do anything to try and get those feelings to change. I partially agree with that – oldest is almost 18 now and we didn’t go away ourselves for the first time until he was around 13.
At that point, went away with another couple for a few days to a resort and had a good time. After that we started to do a few things here and there w/o kids for a couple years (dinners, bands, parties etc…). Had lots of friends, active intimate life, many of our couple friends have told us that they wanted to have what we had, etc…..
About 2.5 or 3 years ago W dropped the B and seems to have been following the script and re-writing history along the way. Many of the standard WAS comments like ILYBINILWY, if I ever did love you it changed somewhere along the way, I am not sure I ever loved you, not willing to work on things any longer, etc….. My initial reaction after B-date included all of the wrong activities (for a longer period of time that I care to admit) and ever since I have been working on integrating the DB principles.
No abuse, alcohol, drugs, affairs (that I am aware of), violence, etc… Just lots of regret and sadness about the current situation…….. W feels like she has finally “found her voice” and can say how she has been feeling for a long time (not sure if this is script or not).
Wow, this got a little long and not sure why I felt the need to type all that out. But like I said, will check in on your story a little later…
Hey SF, good to see some updates. I'm not on the boards much but have looked for yours.
Haven't read the full thread but we seem to be in very similar situations. Roommates, not work on the marriage. W not wanting to D but not willing to work on the M. Puts on a happy and engaging face with others and blow me off... you get the picture all too well.
Good for you on the 180. I have a bad habit of rescuing as well and know how hard it is to see someone you love fall. (even if it's their own fault). You can do that and still be kind and compassionate towards their struggle so good for you.
Its a long road to live in an environment where there you are not shown the expected love and compassion we think an M should have. I like the way you responded to your son (and it had to feel good to know he sees it as well and sympathized with you).
I'm sure this is somewhere back in your threads but I'll ask anyway. Why are you staying? Just a curiosity on my part.
I moved over to the "ready to leave" thread and am working through what that looks like for me, but I won't hijack your thread to get into that. Hope you have a good weekend.
You type it out because you have lots of strong feelings inside but I think you're afraid to let them out. You are so controlled, so measured, at least on the outside.
Is this the life you want?
Whether your W is rewriting history or not,(remember your history isn't her history) is the present you're living where you want to be?
Great to get an update from you SF!
What a stressful time you must be having. You seem to be handling it like a champ! Its hard to try to help the marriage if they have giving up on the relationship.
Your doing a great job with your children and it shows, make sure they are the priority but dont forget that you do need to make yourself happy too.
All the best SF,
Thanks for the comments ces67 and labug - appreciate the interest.
Its a long road to live in an environment where there you are not shown the expected love and compassion we think an M should have. I like the way you responded to your son (and it had to feel good to know he sees it as well and sympathized with you).
I'm sure this is somewhere back in your threads but I'll ask anyway. Why are you staying? Just a curiosity on my part.
Thanks for ^^^. Not sure what the appropriate response in these situations should be but it is certainly what came to mind in the moment and seemed truthful without being disparaging. Also seemed a little like a teaching moment that was presenting itself.
The situation sparked a couple of feelings: was a bit glad that he noticed and sympathized, sad that he has to experience this (but not my doing so I can't assume complete responsibility for it) and a little frustration that there is nothing I can do to prevent it for him.
Great question that I have been thinking about more and more….. So far I have been staying because: I made a commitment and honoring that is important to me, I think it is important to show this example for my boys (given that there is not any abuse, fighting or 3rd party involved), I made a choice to love my W for better or worse and something deep inside of me tells me it is still not the “right” thing to leave/give-up.
Is this the life you want?
No, it is not exactly the life that I want or thought I would have but it is the hand I have currently been dealt (or my cross to bear – pick your analogy) so I am trying to play it out as best I can. And there are parts of my life that are really great which I try to stay focused on the majority of the time…..
I think that another reason I do not take steps to leave is because it feels like doing that would be so against my nature/value system that it would be very destructive to me. I don’t think it is all fear – although I suppose there is some of that there.
My brain tells me that I can make it on my own and I am fairly certain that I can offer value to a future R if that’s the path that I choose to move down. My heart/feelings still tell me that it’s not time yet. And sometime I hear this inner voice saying to me to be patient awhile longer because there is still work to be done for myself and W.
"So far I have been staying because: I made a commitment and honoring that is important to me, I think it is important to show this example for my boys (given that there is not any abuse, fighting or 3rd party involved), I made a choice to love my W for better or worse and something deep inside of me tells me it is still not the “right” thing to leave/give-up."
Completely get this and understand it. Had there not been a PA in my sitch with ongoing rejection, I'd feel the same way. And it is a teaching opportunity. If you are able to live this without resentment and anger then it will be a strong example of compassionate love. Keep taking care of yourself. That's what helps the others you care about.
My viewpoint is a bit different. I don't think living with resentment and anger is the goal but rather to let go of those things if you intend to continue standing. I don't believe we can live a healthy life, emotionally or physically, while holding resentment and/or anger.
You've been at this a long time now, SF, has she given any indication of her plan? Do the 2 of you talk at all, about anything?
Tell us more about this
W feels like she has finally “found her voice” and can say how she has been feeling for a long time (not sure if this is script or not).
In my circumstance, as best as I can tell at this point W believes that we just sort of grew apart and got overly focused on the kids and paid little attention to us. Now doesn’t believe feelings can change and is not willing to do anything to try and get those feelings to change. I partially agree with that – oldest is almost 18 now and we didn’t go away ourselves for the first time until he was around 13.
At that point, went away with another couple for a few days to a resort and had a good time. After that we started to do a few things here and there w/o kids for a couple years (dinners, bands, parties etc…). Had lots of friends, active intimate life, many of our couple friends have told us that they wanted to have what we had, etc…..
About 2.5 or 3 years ago W dropped the B and seems to have been following the script and re-writing history along the way. Many of the standard WAS comments like ILYBINILWY, if I ever did love you it changed somewhere along the way, I am not sure I ever loved you, not willing to work on things any longer, etc….. My initial reaction after B-date included all of the wrong activities (for a longer period of time that I care to admit) and ever since I have been working on integrating the DB principles.
Wow... very similar to my sitch (although I guess a lot of us could say that). Although in my case I think there is at least to some degree some self-medicating on W's part with alcohol. Also, I guess I'm lucky in that my sitch is newer and I started employing DBing much sooner.
Also, I wholeheartedly agree with the following (in fact, for better or worse I'm pretty sure I said something similar to W one of the times she brought up the R and D and asked me what my thoughts were)
So far I have been staying because: I made a commitment and honoring that is important to me, I think it is important to show this example for my boys (given that there is not any abuse, fighting or 3rd party involved), I made a choice to love my W for better or worse and something deep inside of me tells me it is still not the “right” thing to leave/give-up.
labug, thanks for the thought provoking questions - really appreciate your comments and interest
My viewpoint is a bit different. I don't think living with resentment and anger is the goal but rather to let go of those things if you intend to continue standing. I don't believe we can live a healthy life, emotionally or physically, while holding resentment and/or anger.
Agree w/^^^^^. Doing better the past few days but I think this was one of the things that was bothering me so much last week. I found myself feeling resentful, angry, taken advantage of and didn’t like that. Still don’t quite have a handle on why or what was different though.
For the most part I think the anger remains minimal and the resentment comes up occasionally, typically during times where is seems like she is out “enjoying” herself socially w/o me (especially with folks we used to do things with together) and yet using $$$ that I work hard to provide for the family.
Trying to be as insightful as I can be and I don’t think I had these same feelings prior to B-date but also may have that W wasn’t doing as much then either….. I can remember one weekend where she was going away with friends pre-B where I shared with her that I wished she would plan something for the 2 of us to do together and she interpreted that as me not wanting her to go with friends…
You've been at this a long time now, SF, has she given any indication of her plan? Do the 2 of you talk at all, about anything?
The vast majority of our discussions are logistical in nature – kid schedules, vet appt, what would I like for dinner, any plans for the night/weekend, etc….. Any “real” conversations about politics, life plans, retirement, vacation, interesting articles, things going on in town, etc…. have all stopped.
If I am honest, some of the “real” conversations dwindled as time went on and kids became more active – similar to my previous post about “couple” time…
I have purposely not initiated R talks (180 for me) in quite some time – probably a year or more. And the last one that bubbled out from her my response was something along the lines of being sad that she was so upset/sad and wanting to leave and I understood she needed to make the best decisions for herself – I was not stopping her or standing in her way.
The last time she shared her plan was to file for D after adoption of nephew was finalized. Occasionally she pushes to get that done and sometimes she leaves addresses of house for sale laying around or up on the computer screen.
Tell us more about this [quote]W feels like she has finally “found her voice” and can say how she has been feeling for a long time (not sure if this is script or not).
Something that she said a couple times when she was still attending IC – so probably roughly 1.5 years ago or about ½ through this……
It was shared in the context of she finally realized that for so long she had been trying to please everyone else (me and others) that she had lost herself. Now had her voice back and could say how she was really feeling. Stated that she recognized that this was her issue and not mine (and that I had not done anything to create this) but that she didn’t think she was strong enough to stay in a R with me and not revert back to old behaviors of trying to please.
At the same time she said that she fully recognized that the things she was doing to please were not things that I necessarily asked for, demanded, expected, etc….. They were things that she chose to do but then became resentful of feeling like she had to do them. The one specific example that she came up with was taking and picking up dry cleaning – even while at the same time acknowledging that I often offered because I drive right by it on my way to work.
As I am typing this it seems like such a small example and I can’t help but wonder if the same thing extended to other larger things (i.e. how $$$ spend was prioritized, sex, etc….)???? I still don’t completely get ^^^^^ so any help or an outsider’s perspective would be appreciated……
Updating…….
• S15.5 just beginning to drive so I went with him for about 40 minutes
• Helping S17 study for the SAT which he takes on Sat – and have really been working in a couple of conversations to help him understand that this is for him. I have already been through this phase of my life but am more than happy (and would really like) to help – and he needs to want this for himself.
A little bit of a 180 for me, I think in the past I would have been much more adamant about ensuring that he prepared in the way I felt would enable him to be most successful. And even more importantly, working on not being frustrated if he chooses not to do it the way that I would have him do it.
• When driving last, found out that a small traveling carnival is in town for the weekend and I think S8 would really enjoy that. So that’s on the agenda for this weekend I think
For whatever it is worth, the last few days I am feeling better about things which is the complete opposite of how I was feeling about a week ago. Not better in the sense that W is going to change her mind about things, just better and a more positive outlook overall. One specific example that comes to mind is so what if she is looking at houses and thinking about moving out – that means I get to stay in the one that we hae spent years developing. And if she changes her mind and ends up with house, oh well – could be exciting to build/remodel another one.
There have also been a few periods of time recently where I have really thought that I may not want to be married to W any longer if this is the best that she is going to be able to offer – but the problem is that even having that thought and typing it out at the same time makes me cringe.
It seems so different that who I have aspired to be and what I believe my value system to be. I don’t have any burning desire at this point to want to take any actions based on those feelings – just trying to let them happen and see where that goes. Another small 180 for me, historically any feelings I didn’t like or that I didn’t think I should have I just ignored and packed away believing that eventually they would change again and get back in alignment.
Don't get me wrong, I still want my M to work but am becoming more comfortable with the fact that if W chooses to opt out I will still have a great life. I don't mean to comes across as arrogant but I really feel like it will end up being her loss in the long run..........
Now seems like I am just rambling – if that is possible while posting….. Assuming that this is a normal part of the process and maybe this is truer detachment???????
about to leave the office to get my son his learner's permit as well!
personal opinion, but I think being willing to look at all the options, whether you like the or not, will help you validate which ones you truly believe in and understand why one fits with you want to be and why others may be contradictory to who you want to be.
Thx for the comment ces - you make a good point.
Just exploring alternate options doesn't mean that they have to chosen correct? Somehow feels a bit disloyal though - at least to me...... Something to think more about.
How'd the permit acquisition go? BTW, my oldest one is nearly 18 and couldn't care less about driving or getting his license - his young brother had the countdown doing and knew the day he turned 15.5 and could drive with a parent. Funny how they can be so different on some things.
It was a good life lesson in preparation. He didn't pass the test. He didn't study enough. For some reason he focused on one area and assumed the rest would be common sense. Feel bad for him in a way because I understand his disappointment. He apologized for me having to take off work and now will need to again. I told him it was perfectly fine and I was glad to do it for him. I let him know we'd go again next week and he can get it.
We were going to let him do some driving on a road trip tomorrow but now we'll have to wait.
And based upon your name, you may be a good person to ask something unrelated to DB...
My son has been talking about joining the Marines after high school. He wants to be an engineer and do that through the Marines. He's been really excited about it. Last night he told me he was nervous because he wasn't sure he had the physical strength and mindset to make it in the Marines. He's never been very athletic. Not that he couldn't hold his own, its just not been an interest. He's got a sharp mind, but prefers to focus it mainly on his own interests.
Any advice to help encourage him? I told him that I believed it was completely in his ability to do it if he really wanted to and since he's only 15, he could start now getting in shape if its truly what he wants to do.
Update from the weekend……
• S15 had friend over for the weekend – stayed Fri and Sat night. Friend’s parent split up a couple of years and it has not been good scenario. He really likes being with us and they tend to get together as often as we allow it
• S17 took SAT Sat morning and feels like he did pretty well. So hopefully the practice that we did together was helpful. Should have the results in about 3 weeks of so…..
• S8 and I went to local carnival on Sat night for a couple of hours. One of the traveling setups but he rode every ride except one and many of them multiple times…… By then end I needed a break to keep from getting sick myself….. Invited W to go with us but she declined and stayed at home with older 2 and friend that was over.
Sun morning was an interesting turn of events – W stated Sat night that she wanted to go to church at 8a (which is usually her preference). Sometimes given how the morning goes we will end up going at 6p instead which is usually what the boys prefer.
Yesterday morning, the dog needed to go outside around 6a and W was not having any luck getting her to lay back down. I got up and went outside with the dog and was just enjoying the morning, picking up a few sticks that had blown down, weeding etc…..
About 730 she yelled out from the window that she wanted to leave in about 10 mins and asked if I could be ready - which was not a problem. Went inside and found that S17 was in shower, S8 was downstairs but not dressed, S15 and friend were still asleep. Suggested to W that it did not seem likely that all would be ready to go in 10 minutes and that we would be rushed and likely late.
She became very upset and said were always late anyway, that she had said she wanted to go at 8a and that they could just suck it up and get ready. Not said quite as nicely as what I am typing here – couple of names, plenty of stomping and slamming and the f-bomb also used a couple of times indicating that the kids just needed to grow up. At one point W said she would go by herself and that I could take the rest at 6p and then went into the bathroom where s17 was at and said we would go at 6 so that he could have his way.
I offered to take everyone at 6p so that she could go (her idea) and she stated very sarcastically that no we would do what the family wanted to do and go at 6p……… WTH????
In a small 180 for me, I just said ok and let her deal with whatever was clearly bothering her versus trying to rush to get everyone ready, etc…. She continued to be angry and tough to be around but eventually stated “…. I have left a list of everyplace I am going on the counter so people can call if they need anything. I plan to be back around 11a.”
Around noon W called and asked if we had stuff for lunch at the house or if she needed to pick something up and if s15 had gotten to his meeting. She finally got back home at 1p and was in a much better mood and acting as if nothing had happened.
Something released the Kraken but for the life of me I do not know what….. Trying to not mind read though and steering clear……….
You don't have a clue? Really?
Give it a shot.
I am really not sure labug - and trying not to mind read.
W said that she wanted to go at 8a and we ended up not going until the evening Mass at 6p. I guess that is why but maybe there is something that I am missing???
The problem I have with the situation is that she often says she wants to go @8a and then if the boys balk or we don't get ready in time we just end up going later.
There is no consistency and she did not wake anyone up to get things going so they could be ready. At least not that I know of.
Perhaps she was expecting me to do that but didn't state that? Or maybe expecting them to set their own alarms and get ready but not letting them know that?
I thought that I had done something nice (not with any expectation though) by taking the dog out and staying out of her way but maybe not.
Is there something you are seeing from a different perspective?
Perhaps she was expecting me to do that but didn't state that?
I haven't been following your situation that closely SF but I did think of the quote above when I read your last few updates.
Perhaps she was expecting me to do that but didn't state that?
I haven't been following your situation that closely SF but I did think of the quote above when I read your last few updates.
dingo, thanks for stopping by. Can you elaborate a little more on the connection you are seeing?
It feels like both you and labug and trying to tell me something and right now I am having a hard time "hearing" it.
Well - like I said, I am not all that familiar with your specific dynamics but here is what I saw:
She told you the night before that she wanted to go to church at 8am. You woke up at 6 to take care of the dog but then spent the next hour and half puttering around the yard. It might have been more appropriate to head back inside a little earlier and start getting the kids ready to go. Perhaps if there's an issue with 'kid prep' duties in your dynamic, you could have woken them up/gotten them ready with her. If she hadn't called down to you at 730, would you have even noticed what time it was?
It just struck me that she may have felt ignored or her wants marginalized. Regardless of whether the routine of not getting ready in time and going later is the norm, she said she wanted to go at 8 so why not do what you need to do to make that happen?
I'm with Dingo.
We can't read her mind but that's what I would have been thinking. And as gogofo's W told him, "there was never one big issue or event, it was multiple little things that piled up over time."
In an honest, healthy R, she would have told you what she needed but you haven't had a healthy R in a long time. She's done, you're the one who wants to turn things around if possible.
So you have to do the work.
How might you handle things differently the next time she says she wants to go to church at 0800?
What might you say to her now to find out what she needs from you in those situations?
This gets back to that divide of responsibilities in your household. She's no longer happy with that set-up. How can you show her you're hearing her and understand and that things could be different?
Well - like I said, I am not all that familiar with your specific dynamics but here is what I saw:
She told you the night before that she wanted to go to church at 8am. You woke up at 6 to take care of the dog but then spent the next hour and half puttering around the yard. It might have been more appropriate to head back inside a little earlier and start getting the kids ready to go. Perhaps if there's an issue with 'kid prep' duties in your dynamic, you could have woken them up/gotten them ready with her. If she hadn't called down to you at 730, would you have even noticed what time it was?
It just struck me that she may have felt ignored or her wants marginalized. Regardless of whether the routine of not getting ready in time and going later is the norm, she said she wanted to go at 8 so why not do what you need to do to make that happen?
Thanks for the 2x4 Dingo! I would guess that is also what labug was seeing in the situation.
I can see that also and it may be insightful into comments she made about "finding her voice" and losing herself in the M.
Very insightful - especially for not being that familiar with my scenario!
I'm with Dingo.
We can't read her mind but that's what I would have been thinking. And as gogofo's W told him, "there was never one big issue or event, it was multiple little things that piled up over time."
In an honest, healthy R, she would have told you what she needed but you haven't had a healthy R in a long time. She's done, you're the one who wants to turn things around if possible.
So you have to do the work.
ouch! and thank you.... especially for the reminder in the last part above.
And I thought I was being nice by getting up and going outside with the dog so that she could rest more...... she's usually the one that gets up first.....
Funny thing is I actually had the thought 1x while outside about coming in and asking her if she wanted to keep sleeping or get everyone up and going - guess I should have listened to that voice!
How might you handle things differently the next time she says she wants to go to church at 0800?
This gets back to that divide of responsibilities in your household. She's no longer happy with that set-up. How can you show her you're hearing her and understand and that things could be different?
I think in some areas I have been doing this (doing more laundry, cleaning, being more patient with older boys, doing more w/S8, bring Christmas decoration down 1 box at a time, more active listening when she is talking, making sure that I am ready on time for things, etc....) but clearly blew it in this example.
Next opportunity for the 8a start I will just get up and start the process of getting everything started - I know that her preference is to always go at 8a.
Truth be told, I am not even sure she would go if it wasn't for me and the boys - but that's really mindreading and another story.
What might you say to her now to find out what she needs from you in those situations?
May need a bit of help with this one since right now W seems to be only interested in discussing logistical items. Later Sunday evening I tried to ask her about the morning and she cut me off mid-sentence saying it is not a big deal. Tone very much indicated she did not want to talk about it further....
"May need a bit of help with this one since right now W seems to be only interested in discussing logistical items. Later Sunday evening I tried to ask her about the morning and she cut me off mid-sentence saying it is not a big deal. Tone very much indicated she did not want to talk about it further...."
Maybe the work for you here is figuring out what your 180 is and doing it? I've lived that scenario many times over the past 4 years. Body language & tone clearly do not match the words of "its not a big deal".
Just a suggestion to consider. Even if she's not willing to talk about it, maybe you can still say what you need to say. Even if its not a big deal to her, let her know it is a big deal to you and why (maybe because you care about her?). What if you just stated your view of how you look back on the morning and what you wish you'd done differently. Don't expect any response or support, but it may be a small way to show your trying to learn her and then follow it up with a changed behavior. Little items like this over and over. And don't assume it will be the same item over and over. Also, keep the wording on your own thoughts and behaviors and away from hers. This is your learning process.
It still may not work (and I can attest to that) but it may help you become more of who you want to be.
"May need a bit of help with this one since right now W seems to be only interested in discussing logistical items. Later Sunday evening I tried to ask her about the morning and she cut me off mid-sentence saying it is not a big deal. Tone very much indicated she did not want to talk about it further...."
Maybe the work for you here is figuring out what your 180 is and doing it? I've lived that scenario many times over the past 4 years. Body language & tone clearly do not match the words of "its not a big deal".
My initial 180 was to focus on letting her own her own reactions/feelings and not chasing her around bugging her all day about what was wrong and trying to fix it for her.
Used to be very guilty of taking on responsibility for her moods and trying to make sure that she never had anything bad going on in her life.
One of the things that she shared a couple of year ago when we were seeing someone together was that this made her feel put up on a pededstal and she couldn't handle that.
Still don't quite understand ^^^^ but have certainly learned that I cannot solve everything for her and am not completely responsible for her feelings and decisions. I was trying to do everything I could (over doing in many cases) to ensure that her life was perfect and this added pressure for her.
Just a suggestion to consider. Even if she's not willing to talk about it, maybe you can still say what you need to say. Even if its not a big deal to her, let her know it is a big deal to you and why (maybe because you care about her?). What if you just stated your view of how you look back on the morning and what you wish you'd done differently. Don't expect any response or support, but it may be a small way to show your trying to learn her and then follow it up with a changed behavior. Little items like this over and over. And don't assume it will be the same item over and over. Also, keep the wording on your own thoughts and behaviors and away from hers. This is your learning process.
It still may not work (and I can attest to that) but it may help you become more of who you want to be.
I like this suggestion ces. Thanks for the response.
When the time is right maybe starting with something like "... I know that you may not want to have a long discussion about it but I have realized that there is something that I could have done differently Sun morning and if the opportunity is there again I will handle it differently."
Then STFU, no expecations and leave it at that unless W pushes further.
Thoughts?
Jounaling……
Trying to not miss the small – but normal and important things………….
- Came home from work last night – S8 & S18 were playing on trampoline together. S8 was being very loud – in a happy way. Stood and watched for minute and then joined them for 15-20 minutes and it was silly but also very enjoyable
- Last night passed S16 and W on the way home and stopped to give them gift card I had to use for new shoes for S16. He literally got out of the truck and came over to give me a hug and a kiss. I suppose cynically I could think that he only did it because I was giving him $$$ - but he also does it at other times too. How nice is it that can still happen even at his age??
- W has been filling in for someone at work the last 2 weeks so I have had morning routine duty all to myself. This morning S8 wanted me to sit and watch TV with him so I took 10-15 mins to do that versus sending a couple of emails, etc….. It was nice.
- Remembered last night two small things from W on Sunday – when I was leaving the house she actually asked where I was headed off to (different than showing no interest) and later in the evening said my recent haircut looked nice.
Just getting this out there (mostly for me) to help reinforce some of the positive things going on – even amidst some of the turmoil. Not exactly where I would like things to be but not all bad – and I certainly cannot be a complete ogre and have those types of reactions from kids.
Stay strong!
Hey SemperFi00,
It never stops amazing me how well journaling on these forums works. There is something nice knowing that what I write will not fall on deaf or non-sympathetic ears and that it will most likely be read. I am glad you are finding it easier to notice the small things and it sounds like you are really seeing what is most important in your life right now.
Keep it up. I heard this from a song many years ago and it always kind of stuck with me but “the race is long and, in the end, it’s only with yourself”.
ces is so right, what you do may have no effect on her, at least not at a perceivable level. But, you never know. She may truly be gone or just a little lost.
The important thing here is you finding your voice, your balance. It seems to me that you've tried to avoid conflict and keep the family balanced (whether you needed to or not) for so long that you, too, are a little lost.
When the time is right maybe starting with something like "... I know that you may not want to have a long discussion about it but I have realized that there is something that I could have done differently Sun morning and if the opportunity is there again I will handle it differently."
I took out the first part of your sentence because it's mindreading/putting words in her mouth. Saying that will almost surely put her on the defensive. Keep the focus on you, "I realize that I could have gotten the boys moving on Sunday morning. I will do that the next Sunday."
Her reaction doesn't matter so much as is this doing something you think is the right thing to do? Is this being the man you want to be?
Just something else to think about-her anger. None of us deserve the yelling and cursing. The next time this happens could you say, calmly "I feel your anger. What can I do to help you right now?" And then listen, without judgment. Don't debate, don't deny, don't defend. She may not say anything but you've changed the dynamic a bit.
There's an old (1986 but still in print) book, The Dance of Anger which may be helpful to you in understanding your W's anger. It may not. It just came to me as I was writing this. It helped me understand my anger and my destructive responses. Dance of Connection is also good.
The important thing here is you finding your voice, your balance. It seems to me that you've tried to avoid conflict and keep the family balanced (whether you needed to or not) for so long that you, too, are a little lost.
I think that this is very accurate and insightful. I have spend a great deal of time trying to give W and kids the "perfect" life - no conflict, everything they could want, no having to work too hard for anything, etc....
What I wonder about now is that even I could do that for the kids - how long could I do it for? and is that setting them up for a big fall when they get out in the real world?
Wonder also if this in some way contributed to W feeling like she was on a pedestal? She had stated that she felt so much pressure almost as if she could never have a bad moment or day w/o it having such an impact on everyone else.....
When the time is right maybe starting with something like "... I know that you may not want to have a long discussion about it but I have realized that there is something that I could have done differently Sun morning and if the opportunity is there again I will handle it differently."
I took out the first part of your sentence because it's mindreading/putting words in her mouth. Saying that will almost surely put her on the defensive. Keep the focus on you, "I realize that I could have gotten the boys moving on Sunday morning. I will do that the next Sunday."
Her reaction doesn't matter so much as is this doing something you think is the right thing to do? Is this being the man you want to be?
Yes, it is. Although it certainly seems like it would easier if it was reciprocal - but that's why Db'ing and healthy relationships are not for the faint of heart...... In the end I am a better person for having gone through this and made the necessary improvements.
I went back last night and reviewed the goals I originally set and I think there has been quite a bit of positive change since the beginning. Still times like Sun where things could be handled better but that's why it is lifelong process, right???
Just something else to think about-her anger. None of us deserve the yelling and cursing. The next time this happens could you say, calmly "I feel your anger. What can I do to help you right now?" And then listen, without judgment. Don't debate, don't deny, don't defend. She may not say anything but you've changed the dynamic a bit.
I like this and will try it the next time. Certainly seems hard to envision a scenario where that wouldn't help diffuse things a bit.
Thanks for the comments labug, ces and soldier.
holy cr@p!!! Maybe just had a really insightful moment re: how W may have felt.
Was watching a video of Brene Brown talking about shame and a "move the body friend" - btw, thanks to whoever posted that here.
Maybe my high expectations for myself, W and kids contributed to a situation where W felt like she couldn't share things or some of her comments related to not being able to have a bad day or feeling like she was on a pedestal that was tough to live up to.....
Almost started crying in my office at work - and that is certainly not my normal style......
If so, certainly not intentional and not the type of S, friend, father I want to be......... Wonder if I was creating a perception of being more judgmental than I really meant to be.....
And if so, how can I possibly convey this to W who seems to want to not be engaged or connected........
I think it's very important for to clarify your thinking and focus in on your goals. How do you want your relationship to look. A Divorce Busting Coach will help you do those things. You will have a plan of what you need to start saying and doing differently, in order to generate a more positive response from your spouse. Just hoping that either of you will see a different
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re your breakthrough post #2451522
Thanks labug.
It was insightful and has certainly made me more aware but I feel like for quite some time I have been moving away from having such expectations for anyone but myself. Others have to own their own expectations. And I feel much better about how I am approaching things……
All that is great, still leaves me with the questions of how to “show” W. Hopefully she sees the change in the way I interact with people……..
I don’t know if I have mentioned this before but I find it very interesting that as she moves down this path, she seems to have become more critical of others, less patient, more angry, quicker temper. And I have moved in the other direction.
Was interesting that somewhere earlier in this story one of the boys said something like “wow, who would have ever thought that mom would be the one flipping out and you would be calm”
My sons have made similar observations.
so that's a good thing right? they would have expected me to flip[ out and instead I am remaining relatively calm......
and at least they are noticing - even though I hate that they have to have this experience.
I take it as a positive in the moment. Have you heard the old fable about the farmer and his son? Google farmer, horse, son, broken leg.
You mentioned that your W seemed more angry and quick-tempered. Have you ever had the experience when something is changing and you don't quite understand it or you feel unsure, off-balance, anger pops up? It does for me. I feel out of control and afraid and there it is, anger.
We, of course, don't know what's in W's head, but we do know change creates dissonance.
So interesting comments labug.
I take it as a positive in the moment. Have you heard the old fable about the farmer and his son? Google farmer, horse, son, broken leg.
You mentioned that your W seemed more angry and quick-tempered. Have you ever had the experience when something is changing and you don't quite understand it or you feel unsure, off-balance, anger pops up? It does for me. I feel out of control and afraid and there it is, anger.
Yes, have felt this way before and understand the anger and attempts to control when feeling this way. In this current situation W is in control and creating the situation so not sure how she would feel out of control????
Is it possible that even she doesn’t like the situation she is creating / in but doesn’t know what / how to do anything else Or is she sensing something changing in me and that is the part that feels out of control to her??? maybe I am further along than I thought and I just can see all of the change because it has been gradual and I am too close to the situation........
We, of course, don't know what's in W's head, but we do know change creates dissonance.
Yes, certainly don’t know what is in her head – and most of the time in the current state not sure I would want to…….
Loved the fable by the way……. All about perspective and how things are viewed right?
Trying to catch up on a couple of days of posting……
W and S15 have been out of town for his DI team competition (in TN). Very proud of him and his team – 2nd year in a row they have been either 1st or 2nd in the state. They were out of town from Tu – Su. Not much contact from W while out of town except when asking me to forward their flight information or to coordinate if I was picking them up at airport. Was not as bothersome as I would have thought – maybe that means the detachment is really setting in?????
S17 & S8 and I had a good time while they were gone. All of us worked well together getting ready for school/work, making meals taking care of the house etc…. Missed s16 but not W as much as I had expected to - again maybe it is the detachment thing.
W seems stressed about being back in the house and routine but I suppose I have to let her work that out. A little bit of mind reading there but I know her well and sense her moods. Also s16 walked into the laundry room on Sunday and said she was crying so not all mind reading……..
Poor kid said that he thought it was related to some of the teenage drama experienced on the trip. I didn’t quite have the heart to tell him anything different at this point - nor do I think it is my place.
And that ^^^^ I think is an example of one of the biggest differences in me from when this whole story started….. in the past I would have tried to make the house perfect for her return (laundry, cleaning, dishes, etc…), would have been expecting some sort of acknowledgement of my efforts and then been disappointed when I didn’t get it. Also would have tried to have helped solved the drama versus just listening, validating and asking a couple of clarifying questions…..
I did a great deal of housework so that the place wasn’t a wreck when she returned, did the lawn work for our house, helped s17 with lawnwork a neighbor. And feel that I did good enough without needing / expecting any external validation.
Not much change in W actions though – seemed to pick right up with maintaining distance…..
Ugh! I know for me why I remain standing and moving forward at this point but d@mn, it would be nice for W to begin to engage…. Or quite honestly to move on so that the rest of us can begin to heal - but this limbo spot is really tough. Hate feeling this way buy it is where I am at right now (and I know that the feelings will change given some time)!
Limbo is very tough. So is wishing someone would behave differently but they don't. What does "move on" mean to you for your wife?
Thanks for stopping by ces67.
Both are incredibly tough spots to be in.
Guess I was feeling a little down yesterday and struggling with W still seeming to be in the same spot – not happy with where things are at, but not unhappy enough or in enough pain to leave. Ideally I would like for her to figure out a way to engage w/the family and M and also be at peace with who she is an individual.
Unfortunately so far she doesn’t seem to have figured out a way to find that balance. I don’t feel that the two have to be mutually exclusive - and I am doing much better at realizing that there is nothing I can say or do to solve that for her.
I think I am getting to a place where I really want her to be happy – regardless of what the means for the M. I just don’t want the boys and I to have to experience the pain associated with her physically leaving if that’s what she chooses to do.
And I don’t think in the long run that leaving will fix everything and create a sudden sense of happiness for her – my sense is that the issues to be worked thru are much deeper than that.
Btw, at the same time that I am feeling that I want to scream loudly to her something like “either get on board or get gone” I also feel guilty for even feeling that way. Very confusing???
So instead of doing that I usually come her to post instead…….
I get every bit of at. I also remember needing reminded that I cannot have expectations of W doing something for herself. It is hard because it's easy to see what will help from the outside and I often have wondered why my W won't deal with her issues. For me, I learned pushing doesn't help, and it seems you've figured that out too. That does leaves in a spot of questioning where we want to be - continue in a 1- sided marriage or face a D? Personally, I don't like either option.
Regardless of the choice, it's an ongoing effort to find personal peace and let go of the frustrations...which this board helps with a lot. Do you have any friends that you do stuff with or know your sitch? The boards are great but so is having a buddy to go do something with.
Here is an interesting one that I don’t think I have run across anywhere……
W constantly leaves her phone places and then lets everyone know that she is “searching” for it – multiple times a night in some cases. I used to help and try to get the boys to help also but have stopped doing that lately. In some ways it started to feel to to me like the toddler who constantly “drops” their toys and expects the adult to pick it up for them……
Last night she made statement something to the effect of “…. if I didn’t know better I would say that someone is hiding my phone on purpose to make me think that I am crazy” Very much w/tone and body language that implied that she was directing the comment to me. Drank a big ‘ol glass of STFU – didn’t think the comment was even worth responding but really????? Come on.
Guess where she ended up finding the phone…….. in the console of her car where she had left it!
Is this just an attempt to get attention, trying to provoke an argument w/me, is she truly losing it that much??
“The world may never know” - old tootsie pop commercial reference.
SF, your post seems is all about what your W could do to improve the situation.
Have you done everything you can to improve you? I know you've done some self-reflection and see ways things could have been improved but is there more?
If you're done, you can always pull the trigger. Don't wait for her to do that for you.
(this from my thread)
To me some of the things above speak about love (i.e. companionship, life partner, physical connection) but maybe I am missing something from your ?. Given what I know now, I would certainly expect to be more aware of the conflict and would handle it differently.
You can have these things, companionship, life partner, physical connection and not love the person you're with. Love should never be implied. Nor should anger or pain or frustration. A relationship should be strong enough to hold all those emotions.
You're a very controlled guy, or that's the impression I get from your posting. I could be very wrong. When was the last time you were angry? I don't mean the acting out of anger, I mean you felt anger, let yourself feel it, allowed it to cool and went to the other person and said "Let's talk."
It took me a long time to learn that anger isn't the problem it's how we express it that can be the problem. It's even more of a problem when we express it by withdrawing.
How do you deal with anger and your sons?
You mentioned your parent's R and how that has shaped your fear of conflict. We all get shaped by our parent's R but once we realize that, the ball is in our court to change the negative parts of that programming. How are you doing that?
You also mentioned a time when your son found mom crying in the laundry room and you both guessed at what she was crying about but no one asked. That was very sad to me, that we sometimes see people, people we love, in distress and we just walk away.
Just being able to empathize "You're crying, is there anything I can do?" is sometimes all that's needed.
Now I get it that she might have said, "oh, nothing. I'm fine." But that's on her. She gets to decide whether she needs help but it doesn't mean the action isn't necessary or appreciated.
i don't expect you to do that at this stage of your R but it might be something to think about for the future and share with your sons. Remember, they're learning from you, just like you learned from your Dad. How do you see his role in his R with your mother?
It's taken me a long time to be able to look at my parent's R with objectivity. I use to see my Dad as the White Knight and my mom as the source of all the problems. She was what she was and he was what he was. Sometimes the quiet one looks like the hero. Not always true.
Random thoughts that I am typing out. Sometimes typing them out increases my ability to focus on other things….
- Going to see therapist recommended by pastor. Sched for 07/03 (earliest appt he had) and @ some level I think I am looking at this as a last ditch effort for someone to help me understand why/how to keep hanging on. It was interesting after a 10-15 min intro/background phone conversation he indicated that he believes W is like a little girl who is growing up and “growing against me”. Maybe even views me in some ways as a father type figure…… He said in the interim try to stay focused on - When she says or does things that are hurtful, try to see her and not the actions
- What has happened over past 3 years or so I think in some ways has made me stronger and realize that I could get along without her. Not that I want that but certainly could make it….
- Is it wrong to say to your S that you want to be in a loving, engaging and meaningful R? Of course the answer is not at all, just not when they are WAS because it would likely be viewed as pressure.
Labug and CES, will come back after lunch and respond to your posts. Thanks for your interest.
I get every bit of at. I also remember needing reminded that I cannot have expectations of W doing something for herself. It is hard because it's easy to see what will help from the outside and I often have wondered why my W won't deal with her issues. For me, I learned pushing doesn't help, and it seems you've figured that out too. That does leaves in a spot of questioning where we want to be - continue in a 1- sided marriage or face a D? Personally, I don't like either option.
Agreed - took me a while but I learned that pushing (initially I viewed it as suggestions on how to make things better - i.e. solve the problem for her) in these particular scenarios does nothing but further entrench the WAS perspective and desire to leave.
Still wonder on occasion why W won't deal with her issues - but that happens less and less these days. And I suppose on some level the same could be said for me, why can't I just deal with the fact she won't/can't deal with her issues right now.......
Both choices (remain in 1-sided R or choose D) su$k!
Regardless of the choice, it's an ongoing effort to find personal peace and let go of the frustrations...which this board helps with a lot. Do you have any friends that you do stuff with or know your sitch? The boards are great but so is having a buddy to go do something with.
The peace and letting go of frustration comes easier these days and in some cases is replace with a profound sense of sadness of how much better things could (and eventually will) be.
I do have friends that I do things with occasionally but to be honest what I enjoying most is spending time with my kids and prior to this scenario w/W. Most of the things that I did were either family or couple oriented - and I was really ok with that during that point of my life. I enjoyed it and it seemed like what I wanted to be doing and who I wanted to be.
W on occasion would even encourage me to do more "with the guys" but I didn't want to take time away from her and the kids. At the time I partially felt that W was saying this to alleviate some guilt she was feeling in wanting to do things with her girlfriends but maybe there was something more to it.
I suppose this is all normal given the scenarios we find ourselves in but man, why does it have to be so difficult!
"I do have friends that I do things with occasionally but to be honest what I enjoying most is spending time with my kids and prior to this scenario w/W. Most of the things that I did were either family or couple oriented - and I was really ok with that during that point of my life. I enjoyed it and it seemed like what I wanted to be doing and who I wanted to be."
Wow, I'm pretty sure somewhere in the past 4 years, I've typed almost this exact same paragraph. My time was always for the family and my W was my best friend. There were even points in time that if I was developing a friendship that I experienced guilt because it felt like I was trying to replace my W because my needs weren't being met and so I resisted.
So fast forward a bit. You're kids are young now and its great to invest the time with them. Remember that you are also setting an example. Having healthy friendships with other guys is an important example to set for them as well. When they get older and are running around with their friends, who will you spend time with? We all need some form of companionship. I've convinced we're built for that.
I took a leap of faith a few years ago. We had just moved to a new state when the bomb dropped. I didn't really know anybody. A few things lined up and I took the risk of sharing my sitch with a guy I met at church. That has turned into a great friendship that has been both fun and a great source of support during some of the rough patches.
Just stuff to think about.
I do have friends that I do things with occasionally but to be honest what I enjoying most is spending time with my kids and prior to this scenario w/W. Most of the things that I did were either family or couple oriented - and I was really ok with that during that point of my life. I enjoyed it and it seemed like what I wanted to be doing and who I wanted to be.
W on occasion would even encourage me to do more "with the guys" but I didn't want to take time away from her and the kids. At the time I partially felt that W was saying this to alleviate some guilt she was feeling in wanting to do things with her girlfriends but maybe there was something more to it.
Funny, this is EXACTLY how it was/is for me. And I think there
is something more to it than guilt (if "guilt" is even the right word, which I'm not sure it is). I think there is something attractive to women about a man who still maintains some of his own "space"...his own thing. Obviously a person could take that too far and would be little more than a selfish lout who doesn't give enough time to his W and kids...but in moderation, in small doses...I think a lot of women like their man to maintain at least some small measure of his own life/independence. Or at the very least, that's how my W has made it clear she feels, even if it has to cut into some of our family time.
Everyone, male or female, is more attractive when they have outside interests, things they are passionate about. It puts a lot of pressure on a marriage when partners don't do things apart from one another.
SF, good for you on the therapist try to have no expectation about where it will lead. Beginner's mind.
This "W on occasion would even encourage me to do more "with the guys" but I didn't want to take time away from her and the kids. At the time I partially felt that W was saying this to alleviate some guilt she was feeling in wanting to do things with her girlfriends but maybe there was something more to it." You're an interesting guy, SF.
Guilt is a controlling influence in the lives of most women. You saw the Brene Brown video, shame and guilt are huge. I'm sure it is with some men, too. I think I mentioned the book The Dance of Anger to you, did you ever get a chance to look at it?
My H and I had similar discussions because our R roles were similar, I liked to go out and have a good time on occasion, he could sit home pretty much forever it seemed. I had friends and interests outside the marriage, him-not so much. It was a source of stress for a long time. My H and my marriage, were pretty boring.
Things have changed now, being out of the M for 3 years, he developed some other interests, like learning to play guitar! We ride bikes together and he's turned into a pretty awesome bike mechanic. He's also more apt to say, "Hey, lets do something fun this weekend" or "lets go to this new place for dinner." Things he never did before and what a difference it makes.
This is an interesting discussion.
One more thought, the kids can't be the center of the marriage, the H and W have to be at the center of the marriage.
Hi Semperfi,
I know where you are coming from. Sometimes you are dammed if you do and sometimes you are dammed if you don't. he trick is to figure out how to have your time with your friends while allowing her to do the same. She will have to feel comfortable that you can handle things while she is out. I could never get my wife to do that. She eventually built up resentment that I could do things while she was stuck with the kids. This lead into her not wanting to do things together or with the family. I believe in my case it was part of her illness. I would suggest in your case to plan things to do with the kids and give her enough warning that she will be off duty to do what ever she wants. Also plan things with your friends and just give her enough warning that she will have the kids. I am being forced into this right now. I am basically taking care of my three girls alone. I do hope wife will eventually come to realize that I am taking care of the kids alone and we are not killing each other.
You can have these things, companionship, life partner, physical connection and not love the person you're with. Love should never be implied. Nor should anger or pain or frustration. A relationship should be strong enough to hold all those emotions.
So labug this ^^^ is very interesting to me. Always appreciate your comments and the questions you ask.
I agree that a R should be strong enough to handle many different emotions, conversations, actions, etc……. I don’t quite get what a R would look like that had all of those things but there was no love – interested in what that would look like?? Another way to ask the question would be to ask you to describe how you would define/describe love?
For me, love is also about the selfless acts of kindness and caring that a person does because of the feelings they have for someone else.....
Maybe I need to expand my definition a bit though......
You're a very controlled guy, or that's the impression I get from your posting. I could be very wrong. When was the last time you were angry? I don't mean the acting out of anger, I mean you felt anger, let yourself feel it, allowed it to cool and went to the other person and said "Let's talk."
It took me a long time to learn that anger isn't the problem it's how we express it that can be the problem.
Agree that anger is not usually the problem – it is more typically in how a person deals with the anger that can create problems.
When I was younger I had a real problem with how I dealt with anger. I can remember times when I was in jr high and high school being so mad that I would repeatedly hit trees, walls, etc… until my hands would bleed. I can also remember times just out of the military when someone would cut me off driving, give me the wrong food at the drive-thru or say something disrespectful that I would become very confrontational.
Some of this my W was exposed to early in our R (probably 15 or more years ago) but mostly not. Nothing ever physical w/her or the kids but her father was borderline abusive and emotionally dis-engaged from the family so it's a real trigger for her.
I can only think of 1x in the past 5 years or so that there has been any scenario – I slapped a wall in frustration while heading out to my car on the way to work and cracked the drywall. Pressure was caused by a few things: job being relocated to another state, F dying of cancer and W beginning on this “journey”.
So yeah, very aware and controlled about emotions in general – especially anger. Not proud of any of this and I know how ridiculous it sounds when the emotion has subsided and when reading it typed out here.
Have a heavy bag in the basement that I sometimes use to help with the frustration and I also find that regular walks on the treadmill and daily meditation readings help manage the stress level a great deal.
It's even more of a problem when we express it by withdrawing.
Embarrassingly enough have done this also. I have realized that sometimes I was doing it to calm down and other times I was doing it in hope that it would cause a reaction from W. Not a good thing I know and a work in progress..... Haven't done this in quite awhile that I am aware of
Feels at this point like I am at an intervention and should say "....my name is SemperFI and I have been pout free for XXX years"
Will come back to some of your other points a little later....