Hi.
I will start out by saying I think this forum is incredible. My story goes like this. Been together with my w for 15 yrs married for 12yrs. Our marriage has always been relatively normal great times, rough times but always able to work through the issues. Except for one issue that has been at the root of basically all of our problems I believe. That is children and when to have them. Before we married we went to pre-marital counseling. We both expressed the desire to have children together but never discussed when to start our family. Parents and in-laws wanted them right away. The pressure was evident. My wife agreed that right after M was too soon and we should wait. I agreed with this and we had a great couple years. Vacations, buying anything we wanted all the toys before kids. Then my wife started wanting kids. After running up some debt and not feeling so comfortable financially I told her we could not afford them at the moment in my opinion. This, of course, did not please my wife but we got through it. Problem is this went on for about 5 years. My W is 13yrs younger than me so I kept telling her we had plenty of time and I kept paying down debt in order to be able to start a family.I knew my wife was unhappy about this but I did not see how unhappy. Then something happened in 2010 that changed everything for me and I thought my wife. Good friends of ours had to deliver and bury a stillborn baby. My wife and I both mourned for them. We followed their story together and I thought by us doing this she and I were on the same page finally and I would tell her I was ready for children. Because of this event I knew we had to start trying for kids because tomorrow is never guaranteed and you have to act in order to fulfill your dreams. Only problem is that I was afraid of what her reaction would be if I came right out and said lets have a baby. After all she waited 9yrs so far and she had a right to be upset. I decided that that I would drop subtle hints and maybe she would then ask me to have a baby and I could give her a resounding Yes!! This was a big miscalculation on my part. We went 15 months with me giving hints but no reaction from her. Finally in late 2011 that same couple we had been mourning for had a beautiful baby boy. My wife said can I go off the pill? I said can we wait till after the holidays? She reluctantly agreed. In Feb. 2012 she stopped taking the pill because the doctor said if she was not on the pill maybe her migraine headaches would go away. She came to me and said " I am off the pill so you have two options. First we dont have sex or second go buy protection. I on the other hand thought of a third option but kept it to myself again fearing her reaction. That option was to just let nature take its course and in due time we would be parents. Knowing full well that this was not going to happen overnight I prepared myself for this by continuing to pay down debt and praying for it to happen. Unfortunately it didnt happen. Then in Jun 2012.I could see my W getting frustrated with everything, me, her job, life in general really. Then one night we were have a fight about her wanting to go somewhere but I wanted her spend time with me. Her mother chimmed in and I told her to mind her own business because all she wanted was grandchildren. Well as you can imagine this did not sit well with my W and I knew it. 2 days later she left me and stayed with a relative. I did all the usual begging,pleading and crying asked her to come home. She finally came back after 2 weeks but ask me to move out to my parents house because she wanted back in the house because she felt like a prisoner where she was staying. I agreed but was miserable. I continued to do all the wrong things. Then about a week later my wife became ill and needed surgery. I moved back home to take care of her but slept on the couch because she still was not happy with us. We finally got back to our bed together and I thought this was going to be when we would be blessed with a baby. Her health problems and job switch added stress to her that I knew was hampering our efforts. Fast foward to 5 months ago. She had told me last year that she wished at some point when we were out for the evening instead of staying out till closing time that I would just go up to her and say lets go home and make a baby. So last May something came over me and I did exactly that and it felt so good and so right. Her reaction was not bad but it was not what I expected. She said all our friends are here can we stay. I understood and and said sure. I figured the next morning we could talk about it and we did. She proceeded to tell me that she felt like we were room mates. I knew she was not completely happy with our M but I didnt think it was that bad. I then started to try and fix things. I asked to talk about it she said she couldnt asked her to go to couples therapy she said she didnt feel like it. This went on for a couple months all the while I was still asking her to have a baby with me. Then I couldnt handle it anymore and at the end of June we were at a concert and I was drinking but I didnt think to excess more than I normally would have drank. All the feelings that were bottled up inside me just came out. I accused her of cheating even though I trust her and ignoring me on purpose because the baby was my idea not hers. I knew I was heading down a slope but couldnt stop. She asked me to go to my parents house to give her space and time to think which I did. I started solo marriage therapy to learn relationship skills, I stopped drinking, joined a gym, lost 35 lbs basically started GAL before I knew what it was. I gave her space we text or talked on the phone I went over to the house to see my dog. None of this was really working working so I started contacting her less and less this seemed to work. Because she would then contact me. All this time we still had not talked about the R. Then she brought it up in Aug. and said she wanted a D and I started to tell her everything I never told her about wanting kids for about 3 yrs now this upset her and she kept saying no it is too late. I told her I would regret not expressing my feelings back then until the day I die. But at least I did get to ask her to have my baby before we were separated. So that she knew I meant it and it was not something I said to get her to come back to the M. Now just a few days ago she says we have to get the D rolling but doesnt want attornies involved. She said that she would love nothing more than to go out to dinner with me after this is all over and talk with me and then who knows in a couple yrs maybe if we are meant to be we will get back together. I told her we didnt have to divorce for all this to happen we can have kids, we can rebuild from here, we can forgive each other for mistakes from our early years. All she says is "you are just telling me things I want hear. I dont love you. I dont want to be married to you right now". Please, if anybody can relate to this can you offer some advice on what to do. I have read DR twice already. It just seems like I am so close but so far away from getting her to start working on things. I just want to start the process before she does something she might regret for the rest of her life. She has told me that she still wants a baby. She says she knows after all this is over there is a family out there waiting for her. I kept telling her it is right in front her she just has to take a leap of faith and trust that it will so much better than before. She just says "I wish you would had told me your feelings about babies back then" Any help is greatly appreciated.
Nit,
Your wife had lost her feelings for you when you finally decided that YOU wanted kids. I'm sure at that point she was no longer sure you were the man she wanted to start a family with. In reading your story, it seems as if your marriage approach has been to satisfy your needs as they came up, while putting her desires on the back burner. Does a person like this sound like someone you'd start a family with?
I don't point this out to be an a@@, just to point out what may be escaping you right now. Re-read your posts. You sat around for 15 months waiting for her to ask for the millionth time to have a child with her? Really? Your communication together is lacking to say the least. The last thing I would have advised you to do after you moved out was to cut down your communication with your wife as you did. Good communication stands out to me as one of the biggest hurdles you two need to overcome. You need POSITIVE interactions with her now more than ever.
In your other post, you wrote that she says you scare her. Why would she say that? What was the context? It sounds as though if you don't get your way, you essentially bully her into your way of lookingmatbthings, rather than you trying to see things from HER perspective. Perhaps in making your "points", you are very forceful and thus scary to her?
Take some time tonight to list what your wife's most important emotional need are, and which ones you can start meeting (pssst! Put good conversation on that list!). Next, make a list of the bad behaviors you have gotten into the habit of displaying in your marriage (for most of us guys, correcting our wives and showing anger top that lost). Resolve to make every attempt to meet her needs, while eliminating your bad behaviors, on every interaction with your wife going forward.
Your wife needs hope. Hope that you can be a man that will love her, and that can show her future child love. You have to slowly fill her up with that hope by being the man she thought she was marrying twelve years ago.
-hs
Nit,
Sorry if my post came across as unsympathetic. I know that you are going through an extremely difficult time right now. Welcome to the boards. There are lots of experienced folks on here that give great advice. Breathe, relax, and realize that the situation is still very fluid, and that it can be turned around.
-Hs
HS,
Thanks for responding. You have some very valid points about our marriage. I agree that I have not been the best husband. Bullying my way to getting what I wanted is a pretty eye opening statement for me. I know I was very unyielding in some situations but never considered it bullying. It is very confusing for me right now because I always thought I put my W needs ahead of my own when it came to almost everything but children. I do regret not being a strong enough man just to come right out and tell her I wanted children instead of beating around the bush or when she asked to start a family just going with it since it something we both wanted and money issues can always be worked out. I also know that communication has always been lacking between us. When I started MC I told the counselor I needed to learn relationship skills. For the last 4 months I have worked very hard on this. I have put myself in my W shoes and didnt like how it made me feel. I must have been a real treat to live with at some points in our marriage. Since I started MC we havent had any fights like we used to where one of us would start yelling the other would become defensive and start yelling, hurtful things were said and we went to bed mad with neither of us getting our needs met whatever they were that particular day. Now when we disagree or get upset with each other I have been able to step back and realize at what point I would have become defensive and started yelling before and now I am better equipped to handle the situation in a calm rational way. My W seems to sometime test me on this new found calmness by continuing to yell to get her points across and see if I will engage her. I havent back slide on this effort as of yet. I never wanted to avoid communication with her after the separation. I just thought by giving her time and space and working on myself. It would be a benefit for us both even though it was very hard for me. She now admits that I have changed no drinking at the moment, nicer guy, losing weight but I think she still is leery about trusting that these changes will stick. We have talked about the relationship twice since we separated both times she brought it up. The first time she was extremely upset to find out that I had been wanting children for a long time and not telling her. Also, that is was too late to reconcile even though I was taking steps to improve myself. The second time she was telling me that I was just saying things that she wanted to hear and that she really wished I would have told her about babies sooner. I asked to move back home to the other bedroom for right now and she said we could not live under the same roof. Even though she has mentioned D I dont think she is completely sold on the idea. She said she has feelings for me but does not love me. She knows I love her and that puts me at a disadvantage. I just told her that we could start to rebuild if she could just let me back into the smallest part of her heart for now. If I am not living with my wife how can I try and meet some of her emotional needs? I have asked her out for dinner or to watch a hockey game together she says she appreciates the offer but not now but maybe in the future. Only problem is does that mean after the D? When I know something is bothering her I ask if there is anything I can do to help she says no or it is none of my business. But the next day or next week she will tell me what it is without me even asking about it. Before in the M I would keep asking her what is bothering her until she became upset, which in turn would upset me and make feel unloved when she would not say what is was. It is a work in progress I just hope it can be turned around because I have loved my wife from day one with all my heart. Any more advice would be most welcomed.
Nit,
It could be that your wife is, in fact, testing you. Seeing if your temper control is just a ruse to get her back. Proving to herself that she really should leave you. As I wrote before- control your reaction! Don't slip up and make her case for her!
Why would your wife not tell you what was wrong before? Well, some wives think that you should know and that if they have to tell you, well........... More likely, however, is that your wife didn't like the way you reacted when she told you how she felt. You may have invalidated her feelings ("you shouldn't feel that way", "you're overreacting"), pouted and got your feelings hurt (ie: made it about you), became disrespectful ("look, it's easy, here's how you fix it", implying she's not as smart as you), or any number of other things. Look there first. Think back to some of the things you each said during arguments of the past. Chances are, at some point or another, she's told you why she doesn't like your reactions. Try to recall what she complained about.
You haven't listed what your wife's greatest emotional needs are. What are they? Conversation? Admiration? Affection? You can't meet them if you don't know what they are. Remember that ANY interaction is an opportunity to fill her love tank- even if only a drop at a time. It's also an opportunity to empty her tank with bad behavior. Remember that. The goal is to fill it up as much as possible. The needs of conversation can be done over the phone, or with pleasant emails or texts. Many people fall in love with folks they have never met in person by chatting on-line or on the phone. Don't underestimate meeting a need for great conversation! If you are unsure what "great conversation" means, look it up on the Internet or read a book! Almost all of her needs can be met (at least enough to get her to soften) without actually being in front of her.
Why did she not tell you what was wrong before? mMybe she did and it was like her desire to have a baby. Not listened to. Not heard.
You were a bully. You yelled. You were drinking, she was probably afraid of you.
It seems you've taken steps to turn that around. Good work but it's going to take her a long time for her to come around. if she does.
How much patience do you have? 15 years worth?
HS, My wife's emotional needs are conversation affection and acts of service. I haven't always been great with conversation but over the last year I have tried to be better. It was pretty good up until the room mate speech in May. Then she was more interested in Facebook or TV after dinner than talking. I believe it was to avoid talking about the R and babies. As far as affection I have always loved holding hands in public or even if we are just sitting on the couch at home, kissing in public or private. I always kissed her goodbye when I left. Would kiss good night when I remembered until she spoke up and said why don't you kiss me goodnight so I remembered from that day forward. Problem is she says my love was all encompassing and smothering no romantic love. I told her I understood how she could feel that way and validated her feelings but respectfully disagreed. In regards to acts of service, I started helping with household chores about 18 months ago. She admits to this. I am not very handy so fixing things is not my forte and when I attempted to fix things I would get frustrated very easily and quit or she would tell me I was doing it wrong and I would give up. I was always too stubborn to ask for help from family because I had nothing to offer them in return. This would upset her. Since the separation I have started to get things together to fix up the house. I have made a vowel to myself and to her, but she doesn't always listen to me, I would no longer get frustrated and I would do things that she wants to fix up the house no matter how long it took me. My Family has assured me that they will help with anything I need. Problem here is when I say I would like to come over and do something I get an answer like "how will this inconvenience me". Or "why are you doing this now when I asked you to do it last year. You are just throwing it in my face because we wont be here and you will make me look at it till we leave.". She just told me the other day how lonely she has been the last two years and would cry herself to sleep. I was doing the same thing in the same bed ironically. She had caught me a few times and just fluffed it off. She also said she was lonely after we split. And also after our dog passed away last month. I told her we could rebuild from here and she wouldn't have to feel lonely. I told her all romantic things I loved doing with her running my fingers through her hair, stoking her cheek with the back of my hand, and holding hands. She said I was just saying these things. But she said she knows I heard her because she said she told me these were the things she liked last year. I told her we could start a family and she said "why didn't you say something sooner. I explained I wasn't sure of her reaction but that it is no excuse and I will regret it till I die.
@labug We were both drinking and never heard each other because we were both yelling. I always asked her what was bothering her and she would say "I have to work it out myself that is how I always have done it." I explained to her that I am her husband I was there to help and comfort her. She said she knows that she just has to do it herself. Most of the time I knew it wasn't me that was upsetting her but she still wouldn't open up. I have learned Patience and I am willing to wait. I think she knows this and it is working against me to some extent. Please keep the advice coming if you can it will be a great help.
Not sure my previous response went through. I have another question though. If my wife thought my love was smothering wouldnt my 180 be to back off for a bit and give her more space? In the last two weeks I texted her about covering our pool. She agreed and said she would do it within a couple days. Didnt talk to her for three days she called but I didnt answer as I was out with friends during that afternoon. I did text her back 3 hours later and asked what she needed though. I think she wanted me to help her but since I am not living there and she is against me moving back home I made sure did not give in. If she says my love was not romantic should I give a "thinking of you" card or something like that? She is keenly aware of my love for her because she tells me about my feelings and how she hasnt done alot for herself because of my feelings for her. I dont know what that means. If we lacked communication and didnt always have "great conversation" would my 180 be to try and have talks with her about nothing in particular? When I try and do this though texts or phone calls most of the time I get the standard one word responses. When she iniates a call or text it seems like it is because she needs something. This isnt always the case some times she calls up about random things and it is appearant she wants to talk so I will try to keep it short. When she does open up about something other than the M that is bothering her. I listen intently and empathize with her and tell her if she needs anything in regards to it I am there for her. Am I doing this correctly considering we need to better communicate? How can I get her to open up more about our M? When I ask her to do something watch a game or movie go out to dinner she always says thanks but I have plans or not right now but maybe in the future. It is very frustrating because through MC I have recognized where I have shortcomings when it comes to my M. I want to correct them but I am confused because I am not sure if I am DB ing correctly or if it is hampering my chances. The last I want to hear from my wife is "if you would have done this you would have showed me that you cared for me and you meant everything you were saying but because you didnt I figured you didnt love me any more". It does seem like she is sending mixed signals. I try and not let it affect me but I would be lying if I said it didnt. I try not to believe anything she says but when in the same breath she says " it is hard not to have feelings after all these years but it is too late and maybe in a few years if we are meant to be we will get back together but for now we have to get past the D. I just wish you would have said something about babies sooner". Or " maybe I need to talk to somebody" when I then bring up IC or MC she backs off. I told her I didnt think we have done everything possible to give our M the best shot at being better than before. She feels like she has. Which is her right to feel that way. One last thing for now. She says she has put herself in my shoes and cant imagine what it must be like. I told her it is tough but I accept the way she feels at the moment but I am 100 percent committed to our M and I will be just fine no matter how it turns out. I then explained to her that I also have put myself in her shoes and didnt like how it felt thereby validating her feelings. She comes back with " You couldnt possibly be doing that because if you were you would be falling apart right now." This just two weeks ago. Then she said have we talked enough for now? I said yes and told her I would finish watching the game then leave while she got her dinner ready upstairs. She said that made her uncomfortable. I asked why and she said because she thought I planned on staying there and moving back in right then. I said no but I would like to move back sooner rather than later. This upset her. Did I screw up the R talk we just had by telling her this? Please any thoughts will be appreciated.
Sorry about not writing in paragraphs. I will start doing that. Thanks again for the advice.
If my wife thought my love was smothering wouldnt my 180 be to back off for a bit and give her more space?
Regardless of what she thought before, you've got to give her time and space. She's clearly "done" when she talks about proceeding with D. Nothing YOU can do will change that, it's a journey SHE must make. You work on the only thing you can control- YOU. And give her time and space to take her journey. Maybe at the end of her journey she'll pick you again, but it's going to be a long, long time before that might happen.
I think she wanted me to help her but since I am not living there and she is against me moving back home I made sure did not give in.
That's mind-reading. You don't really know what she wanted, try not to build all these point-counterpoint scenarios in your head.
If she says my love was not romantic should I give a "thinking of you" card or something like that?
No. What may have worked to improve the R before does not work after BD. That kind of thing is the worst kind of pursuit and will just drive her farther away, because she does NOT feel that way towards you. So anything like that will just remind her how far apart the two of you are.
If we lacked communication and didnt always have "great conversation" would my 180 be to try and have talks with her about nothing in particular?
Strive to be the best listener possible. Let her talk and don't agree/ disagree/ bargain/ plead/ reason/ negotiate with her. Just validate her feelings.
When I try and do this though texts or phone calls most of the time I get the standard one word responses.
It's a strong hint that she doesn't want to talk to you. Honor her request. Let her initiate.
When she does open up about something other than the M that is bothering her. I listen intently and empathize with her and tell her if she needs anything in regards to it I am there for her. Am I doing this correctly considering we need to better communicate?
Empathy and listening is great, but don't tell her you're there if she needs anything, that sounds too much like you're offering to fix her problems. Men are fixers, women don't want fixing though. They want validation.
How can I get her to open up more about our M?
You absolutely don't want that now or for the next few months. Anything she says about the M is going to be bad news, so don't EVER bring it up and keep your fingers crossed that she doesn't either.
When I ask her to do something watch a game or movie go out to dinner she always says thanks but I have plans or not right now but maybe in the future.
Stop asking, that's pressure/ pursuit.
when I then bring up IC or MC she backs off.
Don't bring it up! That's pressure too.
I told her I didnt think we have done everything possible to give our M the best shot at being better than before.
That's pressure too. Really, this kind of stuff is just pushing her towards D. I think you need to get a whole lot more familiar with
Sandi2's 37 Rules. Read them several times a day at first, then daily for as long as it takes to commit at least the intent of them to memory.
I then explained to her that I also have put myself in her shoes and didnt like how it felt thereby validating her feelings.
That is absolutely not validation, in fact it's the opposite. Do not EVER tell someone you understand what they are going through or what their feelings are. It belittles their emotions. It's OK to tell them you understand why they feel that way, that is validation. Understand the difference?
She comes back with " You couldnt possibly be doing that because if you were you would be falling apart right now."
Right, like I said she felt like you were belittling her. Her reaction is "how dare you presume to know my feelings!" Let her tell you her feelings, just keep asking her questions about how it makes her feel, how intense the feelings are, etc.
I said no but I would like to move back sooner rather than later.
Did you move out? Shouldn't have done that. The WAS needs to make those decisions and live with them.
Keep posting in small increments, you'll be off moderation soon and then thread updates will be instant. Good luck!
I couldn't read alot of your post because of the lack of breaks. Have you actually read DB or DR?
AS, Thank you for your answers. I think I have to slow down and explain myself better. I have read Sandi2's rules. I am trying my best to follow them. Most of the passages you pulled were from a discussion the W and I had about three weeks ago. She initiated the talk when I stopped over at the house to do some repair work. I got the sense that she is confused and needed to vent. I listened to her intently and empathized with her. She told me how hard it must be to be in my position and if it were her she wouldn't know what to do. I told her it is tough no doubt but I have accepted the situation the way it is right now and I am working on some stuff for me. She asked me to move out at the beginning of the S I agreed that she and our dog would be more comfortable. Our dog was in poor health at the time and moving her would have sped up the ultimate ending. Back in August I told my wife of my desire to move back home then. she wasn't happy and I said well after our dog passes there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to because that the whole why she remained in the house to begin with. She does not like when I say I am going to do some improvements on the house after the dog passes which happened about 6 weeks ago. she says I should have done them years ago when she asked but forgets that we agreed that it would be better to wait until after the dog passed. She says now that I am only doing it to throw it in her face and to force her to leave the house. this is not true. I am proud of our house and so is she we have made it a home for twelve years and now it is time to put some care back into it. All of this work was planned well before the S so I am not sure why this is upsetting her. I will try to give more background when I get off moderation.
Yes I have read DB twice now. Sorry for the way I respond with no paragraphs I am working on this as we speak.
Sorry I meant I have read DR twice MrBond
AS,
It has been almost 5 months now since the S. We have only talked about the M twice in that time both times my W initiated the talk. I most certainly do not want to bring it up but when it has come up maybe I haven't done the greatest job at responding back to her correctly. I have been in solo MC since the S and it has helped a great deal on many levels.
I am now able to recognize where I would get defensive in an argument in the past and stop it from happening. My W IMHO has noticed this change and has on a couple of occasions "tested" me I believe. I have not back slid and feel it has helped our sitch somewhat. I am a much better listener I empathize with her but not sure always if I validate her feelings as much as I should. She tells me my feelings all the time and ask her to please not do that and she apologizes.
She keeps asking why I didn't say anything about wanting children sooner. if you refer back to my first post it will explain the children aspect of our problems. I apologize the best I can for not just asking her to start a family that is all I can do. I wish I could rewrite history on this because I feel that things would be much much different if I had.
When we talk about children or romantic love, which she says was lacking in our M, I explain to the best I can what I am feeling about the question she has asked concerning these issues and she says "you are just telling me things I want to hear". And "why couldn't you tell me sooner".
She has said that she sees that I have done a lot of things to better myself. Personally, I think it surprises her that I am fighting so for our M and she doesn't know how to react. She has told me that she still has feelings for me just doesn't love me right because we have been together for 15 years. I told her we could rebuild from here if she could just trust me a little to begin with.
She is contacting some close mutual friends now that she hasn't reached out to in 5 months. Hoping this is to see if she should maybe trust me again and that all the things I am doing to better myself is for real and will last. They all tell me what a world of difference they see in me since the S took place and if asked and only if asked they will assure the W that they think I am the same funny guy I always was but realizes now what is really important in life is a family and a loving M
We have only talked about the M twice in that time both times my W initiated the talk. I most certainly do not want to bring it up but when it has come up maybe I haven't done the greatest job at responding back to her correctly.
No problem there, Sandi's rules say not to initiate any M convos but if your W brings it up it's OK to talk about it.
I am now able to recognize where I would get defensive in an argument in the past and stop it from happening. My W IMHO has noticed this change and has on a couple of occasions "tested" me I believe. I have not back slid and feel it has helped our sitch somewhat.
Good! Just keep in mind that the WAS won't believe the LBS's changes at first, they think it's just tricks to get them back. One of the WAS's biggest fears in reconciliation is that things will "go back to the way they were." So we have to show them consistent changes over a long period of time before they start believing the changes are real.
I am a much better listener I empathize with her but not sure always if I validate her feelings as much as I should.
That's OK, just keep at it. I've been at it for 1-1/2 years and am STILL working on listening/ validating skills!
She keeps asking why I didn't say anything about wanting children sooner. if you refer back to my first post it will explain the children aspect of our problems. I apologize the best I can for not just asking her to start a family that is all I can do.
WAS's will often drag up the same issues over and over again. If you've sincerely apologized for it then no need to keep apologizing. If she brings it up again the just politely remind her that you've already discussed it and apologized for it.
Personally, I think it surprises her that I am fighting so for our M and she doesn't know how to react.
My W told the MC that she was surprised I wanted to stay married. She lost interest in the M quite some time back and just assumed I did too. She thought I'd embrace S and D.
I told her we could rebuild from here if she could just trust me a little to begin with.
Quit pressuring her!!!! Remember Sandi's rules!
She is contacting some close mutual friends now that she hasn't reached out to in 5 months. Hoping this is to see if she should maybe trust me again and that all the things I am doing to better myself is for real and will last.
She's looking for "enablers", people to tell her what she wants to hear. Prepare yourself, because she's probably going to say some bad things about you to others and it'll get back to you. She has to convince them she's doing the right thing and the only way to do that is to paint an unflattering picture of you to them. All you can do is be true to yourself and show them who you REALLY are through your actions.
AS,
I believe she is looking for enablers also but these friends know a little of our history and cant understand why she is a WAS. They always thought of us as a loving couple. When I explained what I thought caused the S. They were somewhat surprised because they said everything I was telling them could be improved easily with better communication and the help of MC. They have really been supportive of my effort to make myself a better person for me.They also told me that they wished that they would have fought for their marriage as hard as I am fighting for mine.
They said if they are approached by my W they would also support her but would tell her how important they think it is that we try everything possible to save our M.
I told them that she might say bad things about me but they said they would know the difference between truths and made up stories because they know both of us.
It doesnt stop with friends. She also has talked with my brother and sister on somewhat consistent basis. They say when they talk to her it isnt about us or me but about how she is doing. That is just fine with me and even if they do talk about me and dont say anything about what was talked about I respect that they are allowed to have a confidentiality with her.
She has asked me from the beginning of the S to not talk to her family. I have respected her wishes except for one short conversation with one of her relatives. When she found out this really upset her. Since that time I have not reached out to any of them. I have seen them in public and we have acknowledged each others presence but no conversations have taken place.
Is this a positive that she is keeping in touch with my family?
@MrBond I am paying for half of all the bills- mortgage, credit cards, installment loans, cell phone and even utilities that I have used in 5 months. My wife lost her job shortly after the S. She said she didnt want anything from me. So I figured paying 50 percent was all I should do. We still have joint bank accounts so I just transfer what she needs to her account and she pays the bills. Before the S I used to pay the bills. I never wanted to I wanted her to do it but at the beginning of our M when we tried that she bounced some checks and we decided I should take over. When we talked about this at the split. She remembers it as me telling her I would pay the bills because she couldnt. This is not a true statement. I told her when we S that I would like her to take over paying the bills she said she would and that is how it has been. If she ever asked for more financial help I certainly would help her
I meant utilities that I have not used in 5 months MrBond
If you pay for the home, then move back. Go into a separate room, but you are paying for it, therefore you should stay.
MrBond,
I agree and want to move back but when I bring it up she says we cant live under the roof together. I told her I could handle it if we did. I told her she is welcome to stay but if she couldn't handle it I would not stop her from moving out but would always be welcomed back. I am moving back for me not necessarily to reconcile but that would be a nice side effect.
She says she would need a signed agreement that would then carry through to the D. Then she would take her stuff and move out. I told her to write a list of things that she wants and I would look it over to see if I agree with it and go from there. She said she would need a couple weeks to do this. It has been four weeks so far and she said she was working on it but some things have come up that would delay her from completing the list. IMHO she is comfortable and not really ready to take this forward because she is unsure if she really wants the D.
one of the biggest reason I want to move back is to start fixing up the home in case we have to sell it. I don't want to sell I want to fix it up for us and possibly our future family. I think this would go a long way to helping us get back together because this has always been a complaint of hers that I don't fix up the house. Thinking if I started this process she would how much our home and M mean to me without having to say it and giving the impression that this is just to appease her.
My problem is how to tell her I am moving back in the least upsetting way so it doesn't turn into an ugly argument.
My parents and siblings are on board with me on moving back. I am sure she knows this but she has stopped over to see my parents and talked to my sister and brother since we had the conversation a month ago so I am at a loss why she would be keeping in contact with my family if she is planning on moving forward with the D.
Oh, one last thing she says she feels like we could do this D without getting any attys involved because of the cost and just do it ourselves because we are civil and have been together so long. She says she knows after all this is over we will be the best of friends and who knows a couple years down the road if we are meant to be together we will be. This is the part that baffles me. Why wont she try everything possible before D.
"She says she would need a signed agreement that would then carry through to the D."
Tell her 'no'. Tell her that you are not going to sign anything that you are not comfortable with. That you will be moving into the side room and she is more than welcome to do what she feels like to do.
"My problem is how to tell her I am moving back in the least upsetting way so it doesn't turn into an ugly argument."
See above.
Actually tried all the above in that conversation 4 weeks ago and she said would call the police and that she is afraid of me. She has said that she is afraid of me a couple times since the S but when I ask her why she does not answer me. We have had 3 pushing incidents in our past the last one being about 2 years ago. we were both drinking and both doing the pushing honestly not sure who started it but that does not matter it should never of happened in the first place. there is no excuse for it. We both apologized to each other the next day after each incident. No police were ever called, no bruises, hitting or punching were ever involved.
When I ask my family if she ever expressed this concern to them before and they said no. I said what about after the separation they again said no.
IMHO, it seems when things aren't going the way she needs them too or if I stand up for myself and not let her treat me like a doormat is when she says this. She has always invited me into the house when I go over to do whatever. If she feels like I wont leave when she wants me to is when this statement comes up. This hurts me beyond belief and I think she knows it and there no way to defend myself against it.
Go and get legal representation so that you're protected, then go back home. Period. Don't be afraid of her.
I want to avoid L's if at all possible. I don't want it to seem like an ultimatum. I have spoken with a L. It was back at the beginning of Sept. and they seemed to think all was ok with a plan to move back. I felt dirty after speaking with them because I never wanted it to go this far and they understand I don't want to file. They said just to play it cool and hopefully things shake out the correct way.
Your talking to a L is to determine your rights. Nothing more.
She has threatened you with police action. A woman in that state of mind will say things that you will be shocked to hear. I've seen it time and time again over my 5 years here.
Find out what your rights are so that when she threatens you again, show her your backup.
Move back in.
MrBond,
I will think it over. It is good solid advice that you give. I believe from talking to the L before that I do have a right to move back in. It will just get a little more complicated if she were to call the authorities. When we were discussing this move back during that convo 4 weeks ago. It was after we had just talked about the M for about an hour which she initiated. It was very heartfelt on both of our parts at some points.Then when I asked to finish watching a football game before I left is when she said that made her uncomfortable like I was planning on staying there from that point on.
I told her that was not the case but I would like to move back in a couple of days. That is when she said she would call the police if I didnt leave right then. I told her that was her decision. She never called them and we proceeded to talk about all the reasons I felt I was able to move back in and she proceeded to tell me all the reasons I couldnt.
This went on for about a half an hour. If she wanted she had ample opportunity to make the call but didnt. Actually over the next day or so she could have gotten a protection order against me but didnt. I am not sure but it seems as if she understands that if something like this were to take place it might just turn my family against her which I believe would be something that she does not want because she loves them and they love her and she does not want to lose them.
That whole time I just kept telling her in a calm manner that if she wanted to stay she could. If she wanted to go she could. That was her decision. I had no right to ask her whereabouts or what she was doing or with who and I would expect the same respect from her. She said this move back was just a way of controlling her life and forcing her out of our house. I reassured her that was not the case. It would be good for both of us but mostly her because I would be willing to pay more of the bills and buy groceries which would relieve some burden from her considering she was not and has not worked since about 3 week after the S.
So I guess I could be a little more forceful next time and maybe call her bluff again but it is just so emotional exhausting at times. I have been over the house 3 times since then. Once she was not there but we spoke by phone while I was there.
The next time we had a nice conversation for about 15mins before she had to leave. And this past weekend I was there and picked up something. I talked with the neighbors and then went back inside and showed her some samples of flooring that I would like to install. She said it was like the stuff she wanted a few years prior to this but I refused.I politely reminded her we both agreed that it was a great idea but that it should wait till our beloved dog had crossed the rainbow bridge.
I asked her opinion on something from the next room and I heard her voice crack and I said are you ok? She said "please go I dont want to fight." I said "I didnt realize we were fighting I thought we were deciding on flooring options." I peaked around the corner and she said again" please go" but it was not in a demanding tone and I could tell she was about to tear up so I said sure and went downstairs and out the back way.
Two days later she stops over my parents house to give my mom a birthday card.
I certainly dont want to be confrontational but I guess I could be a little bit more firm on my stance about moving back.Sometimes I think she might be ok with it but cant let it happen because it would show signs of weakness if she gave in like that. Is there any way to move back in and allow her to save her pride? If this could be done I feel she would be more likely to remain in our home which would help the reconciliation process along possibly.
she is afraid of me. She has said that she is afraid of me a couple times since the S but when I ask her why she does not answer me. We have had 3 pushing incidents in our past the last one being about 2 years ago. we were both drinking and both doing the pushing honestly not sure who started it but that does not matter it should never of happened in the first place. there is no excuse for it. We both apologized to each other the next day after each incident. No police were ever called, no bruises, hitting or punching were ever involved.
Maybe a good 180 for the time being and to make her feel safe would be to quit drinking since alcohol was involved in this incident? I can tell you as a recovering alcoholic that any type of incident involving alcohol will not help your case or make you look good.
Kdog,
I have quit drinking. The day before the S was the last drink I had. I dont miss it I told her that day I was done drinking forever if she wanted me too. She has noticed that I am not drinking I still go to the private clubs we are members of and mingle with friends but do not drink. I know they confirm with her. I quit smoking the same way. She quit before me and had a tough time but has kept it up for almost 2 years. I quit 6 months after her and have never felt better. I always told her thoughout the M I could stop both vices anytime and it would not bother me one bit.
The quitting smoking actually was an agreed upon stipulation for us to start a family. We both did it so I thought it was a go. If you read my back story you will see that isnt the case I guess. She still drinks and I have no problem with that even if we reconcile I wouldnt have an issue. If we do start a family it will change our lives so profoundly that I think the drinking would just quietly go away. We would have other things to occupy our time. She is well aware of this as I explained to her about a month ago. The problem is trusting that these changes will stick. I understand that. I believe she is having a hard accepting the fact that I am fighting so hard for our M and our future family. Had she asked for all this to place before the S I most certainly would have done it. We lacked some relationship skills and avoied conflicts until they festered and became toxic to our M.
Glad to hear it, I hope you can stick to abstaining from both. You must have a lot of will power.
What other vices do you have?
Just trying to help you do some introspection, my addictive personality translates to other areas of my life as well. I am sort of a compulsive saver at times. I can get addicted to investing, or a video game, it wasn't just booze for me.
Kdog,
We have been S for almost 5 months
Well I have been accused of wanting to pay down debt more than wanting children. I can see the the light at the end of the tunnel as far as that goes if we stay M. I also realized that being debt free was not everything it is cracked up to be if you sacrificed other areas of happiness to get there. About 3 years ago I realized that no matter what, money issues could be worked out if we had a baby. This along with a tragic event caused me to see that we needed to start our family then. Problem is I didnt know how to bring it up to my W. She had been wanting children for about 7 years and I kept saying we couldnt afford it right now. Extremely stupid of me I know.
We both knew that each other wanted kids we just never discuss it the way a married couple should.Because of a lack of communication skills we just swept under the rug and it obviously built up a lot resentment in my W. I cant blame her but I just wish that three years ago I would have manned up and asked to have a baby back then instead of waiting till 2 months before the S to ask.
General question here. How do you tell the difference between baby steps of progress or just your positive attitude fooling you into thinking it is progress?
I see my W talking to my family or sending cards for Birthdays after the S as a positive. She said when we S that I was taking my family away from her. I told her this wasn't true at all. She knows that my Family loves her like one of their own and always has. If we would actually ever D I don't think that my family would be quite as nice. They would not ignore her but they wouldn't go out of the way to help her out I don't believe.
If I were wanting a D like my W. I don't think I could keep in touch with her family because I would want to detach from my past as fast as I could. Does this mean that she possibly is confused and does not know if she really wants a D because she would risk losing all that she has had for the last 15 years?
"General question here. How do you tell the difference between baby steps of progress or just your positive attitude fooling you into thinking it is progress?"
Baby steps are positive ones that she does for you. All positive interactions help though. Write them down and file them away. Build on them.
General question here. How do you tell the difference between baby steps of progress or just your positive attitude fooling you into thinking it is progress?
Bond is correct
But... Does it matter at this point?
She had been wanting children for about 7 years and I kept saying we couldnt afford it right now. Extremely stupid of me I know.
We both knew that each other wanted kids we just never discuss it the way a married couple should.Because of a lack of communication skills we just swept under the rug and it obviously built up a lot resentment in my W.
Many of us have issues that we didn't take steps to correct, or took only all the wrong steps to correct. We are all guilty of running down cheeseless tunnels. It is good to see where you went wrong, but doesn't do any good to beat yourself up about it - so don't.
If I were wanting a D like my W. I don't think I could keep in touch with her family because I would want to detach from my past as fast as I could. Does this mean that she possibly is confused and does not know if she really wants a D because she would risk losing all that she has had for the last 15 years?
Big rule around here - don't try to read her mind! (I know, it's much easier said than done.) You will be wrong the vast majority of the time, and you will only drive yourself insane. Nobody here can read her mind any more than you can, either.
Melissag,
Thanks for responding and keeping me grounded. I know it is wrong to try and read her mind. These are just thoughts that run through my mind every once in a while.
I have gotten better about not blaming myself completely for the S but the baby issue is squarely on me I believe. We always talked about having kids together it was a dream of ours. We discussed having kids right after we got back from our honeymoon and decided together to wait a year or two. If I would have told her the very next day that I changed my thinking and maybe we should start a family. I am 100 percent positive that she would have said YES!!!
I guess in that respect I took it for granted that the option would always be there when I was ready. I just wish I had told her 3 years ago instead of just dropping hints. How childish and actually selfish of me to think that would work.
So now I am left with her saying "I wish you would have told me your desires back then" or " now it is too late why couldnt you tell me sooner". She knows now that anytime she wants a baby I am there. I think that puts me at a disadvantage even though she has told me as recent as 3 months ago she still desires a baby.
Feeling a bit down tonight. I am trying so hard to do the things that I read about in DR but I am not sure I am applying things correctly. I am giving my W as much space as possible, letting her initiate texting or phone calls unless it pertains to me getting my mail or needing something from the marital home.
One of our problems has always been a lack of communication. Which of course, she blames on me for not listening to her or hearing her. I dont feel that this is completely justified. Plus it works both ways. How am I to improve our communication skills if I need to let her initiate all contact and then keep it short.
Another issue she said was a problem is that I was not romantic enough. This I dont get at all. I always tried to be romantic. I remember all important dates from the first time we started dating which by the way is today to something as small as when she bought me a certain shirt that is my favorite.
I always loved holding hands in public or private. She told me things that made her feel special like caressing her face with the back of my hand while looking at her or kissing her. Running my fingers through her hair or kissing her as we passed in the house. I did all things and here is the kicker I liked to do it. I did it as often as possible. She says that she remembers telling me these things so I must be hearing what she is saying to me but I am just telling her what she wants to hear. I guess she feels I am just saying things to get her to come back to the M.
I dont how to reinforce these thoughts if she wont allow me to get close enough to give her a hug or kiss and show her I love doing these things instead of talking about them.
It seems to be a contant battle when I try and validate her feelings or empathize with her. She says I know you are working on things to improve this but again you are telling me these things because it is what I want to hear. I tell her I am working on some things for myself and thanks for noticing
Any pointers on what I may not be doing correctly? Or things that I might try to get her to trust that these improvement are going to stick and we wont fall back into the past marriage problems. I truly feel in my heart after solo MC that what I have learned in those sessions will stick and create a great marriage moving foward that will allow us to start the family that we both always wanted.
How big of a problem might this present. I accidently sent a text that was meant for a friend to my W.
The reason it was sent in the first place was out of frustration with my sitch. When I want to go to the Martial home I must text or call first to let my W know I am coming. I am living with my parents at the moment about 5 mins away. I have always wanted to move back to my home and my W knows this. I chose not to push the issue until recently because our dog was sick and would be more comfortable in our home. But the poor thing past away 9 weeks ago and then that is when I restated my desire to move back.
The thing that gets me is when my W comes over to my Parents house to see them she just walks right in the house with no call no knock or anything. This latest incident happened last week. It was nice to see her but it is still frustrating how she does this. My parents don't mind but I feel she should have the same respect for me that I am showing her. As soon as she left I wrote the text I didn't pay attention which thread I was on and hit send.
This is what it said " my W just left after coming over to see my parents. Can you believe she just walked right in. I was out in the driveway and watched the whole time. I then went in and saw her. She saw me with my gym stuff. WTF!!! sorry to bother you just journaling to you can I please please talk to you later."
Of course this made my W call right away. She said "I got that text you sent". I said " yeah sorry about that it was meant for such and such person" I used the name of a relative not the actual person it was meant for because they are a mutual friend. she sounded like she was going to get upset or cry she said Bye and hung up.
She then called my Mother and talked to her. Saying "our problems are not yours and mine and sorry if walking right in upset you". My mom assured her that she didn't mind and the door is always open for her.
What I didn't know is My Mother invited the W to Thanksgiving Dinner when she was there and she didn't flat out say no. This was before she received the text though.
Do I just let it go because it is done and over with and I already apologized? Or should I be proactive and tell her it would be great to see her on Thanksgiving but not say anything about the text?
Do I just let it go because it is done and over with and I already apologized?
Yes, let it go. You're right, it was pretty "forward" of her to just walk in. I don't think you hurt anything by letting her know, even if it was on accident. She needs to begin to understand that she's not a member of your family anymore.
This could be awkward situation. What if My W who is a WAW actually does except an invite by my Mom to come over for Thanksgiving dinner.
I am not going to bring up the M or S. Do I just talk about current affairs? Do I hug her hello or goodbye?
One of our problems is lack of communication so not sure how to approach this if it actually happens. Being standoffish is not good. Taking a trip down memory lane might be taken as pressure.
She also says I am not romantic. I have always pulled her chair out for her at family dinners or when we go out. Should I still do this or other little things that I did before the S or just casually forget now that we arent together right now.
This is a strange occassion if it occurs and advice to ease my mind?
I think this would be a great "Act as if" scenario. How would you act if you thought she was going to be receptive to you? If you go in thinking it will turn out badly, it probably will.
If she comes, treat her well. Do things you would do for a friend. Don't go out of your way to bend over backwards, but don't ignore her either. Try and have a positive time for her to think about.
Be self-confident. Look and smell your best. Let her take the lead on physical contact. If she goes for a hug, then do it, but don't linger too long. Read over the 37 rules again as a refresher. Don't follow her around the house and such.
Good luck.
For what it's worth- I met up for coffee with my WAW a few weeks ago. I had a gameplan of what I wanted to discuss and what I would say if conversations went certain ways. I went in anticipating a positive meeting, and it was a positive meeting.
Rehearse some scenarios (without making yourself crazy) what are your common fights/arguments? How can you react differently to break the cycle?
What can you do to validate her feelings and thoughts so she feels comfortable sharing? Make sure to listen to what she's saying so you can address concerns through actions in the days/weeks following.
This could be a good info gathering session if it comes to fruition.
Kdog,
Thanks for the answers. I need to go back and read that chapter about acting "as if" that will be good to refresh. I always try to have a positive outlook on things and most of the time it is easy. Just when I need to talk to my W do I some times lose that positivity.
Just caught up on your sitch. You are doing a fine job so far!!
One question. What is the chance there being someone else in the picture? Don't panic, not necessarily a full blown A, but at least another man helping her make the step out of the marriage? A lot of times (more often than not) there is someone waiting in the wings.
As far as her saying that you never worked on the house. I heard the exact same complaint. I would urge you to dig deeper on this one. Women don't say their complaints directly and I can guarantee you there is more to this than you think...
It could be that you procrastinate and she doesn't like that.
It could be that you don't take pride in your posessions and that bothers her.
It could be that you say you will do something and then not do it.
Think of the house think as an example of a charctet trait that she doesn't like or that worries her for a future together with you. It may even be that she feels that having kids with someone who has this trait, whatever it is, would create problems.
Its probably not the house, there is something else much deeper that is bothering her...find it.
Kdog,
I ran into W Thanksgiving Morning at the local donut shop. I was already in my vehicle drinking coffee when she pulled in right next to me. Couldnt tell her reaction but when she got out of the car she did give a wave then went inside. When she came out I tried to be positive and asked her if she was going to be able to come over for dinner she said probably not because she didnt think she would have enough time. I wished her and to tell her family I said Happy Thanksgiving. When I got back to my Parents home I found out that W had texted mom, about 30 mins before I saw her, to wish her a Happy Thanksgiving. I guess I should be ok with the fact that she still contacts my family but it makes me think way too much about why she does.
SM34,
I guess there is always that chance of an A but enough people know our sitch and are both our friends that I think it would have come out by now.
When we had a R talk about a month ago. I did say to her that people told me that she is acting like someone who has somebody already or has somebody in mind to fill the void. She said if she did they would already be moved in and paying the bills.
The house improvement is a bit of an issue because you may be right that it isnt that at all. It could be a reason of her getting so upset for me waiting so long to start a family.
The thing is I would try to work on the house but would get frustrated easily because I am not handy. My W knew this so when I attempted to do something I would get told by her to call my Father or Brother in law because I didnt know what I was doing. Im not very handy but I am not helpless either.
Then when I would try and do something like clean or dust or vaccuum to help out the W. I was told not to do that she would get it. I said it was no problem but she would get angry cause it was "her" work and she thought I was doing it to show her up. I would say fine you do it and walked away instead of fighting about it. problem is she wouldnt do it then either. Vicious cycle that when and if we reconcile I refuse to let bother me. I will just do it because it needs done and if I need help with repairs I will call someone to help instead of giving up so easily.
I would always try and keep the peace instead of arguing about things like chores because it seemed like an unproductive fight. Unfortunately it caused some resentment that would then come out in a totally unrelated argument that caused hurt feelings on both our parts.
I think the W knows that if it came down to her getting pregnant and us having a family that it would all get done somehow because it had to.
We both always knew that we wanted children. She is just upset I didnt tell her three years ago when I truly felt I was ready to have children. She was ready ten years ago. I dont blame her for being mad but if I could have said something back then instead of just 7 months ago I think she would have been ok with it. I will regret that decision for the rest of my life if we dont end up having a family together.
I am sure that there are people she is confiding in that are giving her advice. Family and friends alike. I cant control that. All I can do is present the best of me when I am around her and try and prove them wrong. She talks to my family but has asked me not to talk to her family and friends, which I am respecting her request, but it puzzles me why she would ask this of me. I told my family her wishes and they said not to request that same of her. They told her their door is always open to her if she needs anything. That is how my family has always been with the W and her family.
I know she sees the changes in me because she has told me so. I think she is just afraid that they temporary. Maybe her conflict is between what sees me becoming and what advice she is getting that says I will never change. Too much thinking on my part I know but without contact with her family and friends I have to rely on word of mouth from mutual friends telling them about changes I have made instead of my action speaking for themselves
Patience is a must, I get that but I also feel sometimes that I am not doing enough and the W will take that as me no longer caring or loving her and she will move on. I think her love languages are service and affection but right now I cant help her with these because we are S. This is why I feel good one moment and bad the next.
I wish that she could let her defenses down just a little so she may see how wonderful our M could be moving foward. The M and children are right her for the taking if she wants. I think her knowing this is allowing her to take her time and make sure what I am doing is for real but at the same time it is allowing for the chance that some sweet talker might come around and give her bad advice for his personal gain if you get my drift. That is why this is so frustrating.
I know I am not supposed to bring up R talks but sometimes I feel like that is what she wants me to do.
Iam just letting her drive the R right now because she has told before that I am controlling and smothering to her.
I dont know if she knows how to handle this lead position and might be looking for me to reassume the front position. I dont want this because I always thought I was treating the W as an equal and if I start driving the R it might be percieved as "more of the same" back to me being in control.
Any other advice or thoughts are truly welcomed.
Feeling like a doormat but not ready for LRT yet.
I voluntarily moved out when we S with understanding at least on my part, that after our ailing dog passed away I wanted to move back home either with my W or if she couldnt handle that. She could go elsewhere considering she is the WAS. At this point it has been 9 weeks since the dog passed. When she brought up a R talk about 6 weeks ago it was not the greatest talk we ever had but she opened up a little bit to me. After that talk I mention about moving back and she proceeded to get real angry thinking I was forcing her out. I assured her she was welcomed to stay but if she had to move out because it bothered her I would not try and beg her to stay.
She said she needed time a couple of weeks to prepare some draft agreement for me to look at. After two weeks I didnt say anything and when we talked she mentioned that because of a certain event it was going to delay her drafting up the paperwork.
She said maybe I could give her my list of what I wanted in a proposed settlement or D. I told her she wanted this so she should do all work and if I agree with what she has on her list than everything else would be mine.
This is no easy task I understand there is a lot of things to consider. My problem is that she seems to be dragging her feet for whatever reason and not following through on things I thought we agreed upon ie a"couple of weeks" time frame.
I dont want to force the issue but I would like to know if she is having second thoughts or what. Our last couple interactions werent the greatest I told her I want to come to house to get mail and she asked how long I would be there I said maybe an hour or two. She said that upset her because she wanted to come home at that same time. I told her feel free to do that I would be in another part of house and would try and stay out of her way as much as possible. She didnt go for that and said I just dont feel like dealing with you today. I have no problem with being around her and not discussing the M. In fact I have been over there several times and done just that. Her issue is if I keep coming over the house one day I am not going to leave and just stay.
I wouldnt do that but I think a couple of days up to a week would be enough notice. She would still be welcomed back to get her stuff a little at a time if she chose to leave.
My issue is how do I bring the subject up in such a way that it not aggressive and might lead to us to talking about maybe trying to work on things. That is my goal but I dont want to pressure her. If she goes she goes. I just dont want it to come off as an ultimatium. I would like her to see it as a dose of reality though. That this is really happening and if we dont begin to work on things it probably will start to get a lot tougher and moving toward her goal of D Obviously I will not be filing for D but if she does choose leave she probably wont as comfortable as she now because I feel like I have been more than accomadating to her over these last six months in regards to the house and giving her her needed space and such.
Ok so I am sitting here thinking of ways to do certain things all of which probably wont help my cause but I have some time so I will take a shot and see what responses I receive.
1. No proof of an A but cant help but think there might be an OM in the picture or lined up to be there. My reasoning for feeling this way is my W reluctance to work on the M.
a. Do I bring up R talk? I have yet to do so. Both times W has brought it up.
b. Do I completely back off and risk her feeling like I have moved on and maybe pushing her into the arms of OM if there is one by acting this way.
c. Do I tell her I plan on moving back home but into a separate bedroom because after all it is half my house and I have been paying more than my fair share since S to help W out because she lost her job two weeks after S.
I am trying to be a good DB er and for the most part I can follow Sandis rules but sometimes the rollercoaster ride becomes very frustrating and I dont how to handle it. I realize patients is a necessary part of this but it is very hard sometimes not feel like I am being taken advantage of by my W for how I am allowing her to live pretty comfortably and not upsetting the apple cart because I truly do want things to work out. I feel good at some points when I stand up for myself.
Only problem with standing up for myself is that it make the W upset because it makes her feel like I am trying to take some of the power back and it makes her uncomfortable.
I am surviving living at my parents house but it frustrates me to think imho that my W is at the Marital home playing a real life game of house.
I know that she isnt thinking logically and is being guided by her emotions but there has to be something that will snap her out of this fantasy she is in. Right?
She says she sees changes in me which I like because I have worked hard since the S at becoming a better person for myself with the hopes of becoming a man that a woman couldnt live without. W told me last R talk that I am a good person and would make somebody very happy and hopes I find it because I deserve it. It just cant be her at this point but maybe in future. Cant figure it out.
Just move back and stop worrying about what she is going to do or not do.
I a have question, I haven't brought up the R discussion personally, both times we had a R talk it was brought up by the W. I am having some conflicting feelings about this. I am feeling like I need to initiate a heart to heart talk with my W no matter the consequences one way or the other, this limbo position is really working on me. Both times she brought the R up it was about her feelings and nothing I could do could help her feel better at that point so we should move forward with the D in her words. The last R talk was 7 weeks ago. There has been some good contact between us and some bad contact between us in the weeks that followed. No movement toward the D though. No Splitting of assets or separate accounts nothing.
I have continued IMC though this time and actually since the S began and I am feeling that all these sessions have helped me realize where we or at least I went wrong in the M and how to be a man that no woman could live without. The last time I asked her to attend an appt was during the first R talk back in Aug she declined. She then said maybe she needed to go to counseling when we had R talk in Oct. I encouraged it but she backed off fairly quickly so I didn't push it.
I just was reading a really deep thought provoking piece the other night and had a sort of an Epiphany while doing so. I think I now know why I couldn't ask my W to have a baby with me 3 years ago, Instead waiting till last May to finally do it. I believe this is a large part not all but a large part as to why we are S at this point.
I always wanted children but always found excuses to put it off. Then after 9 years it hit me that we needed to start a family I didn't know how to approach the W fearing her answer or reaction. I then started beating myself up mentally and regretting the fact that it took me this long to realize that nothing should have kept us from having children earlier. This was only due to my own stupidity. By hating myself for being so stubborn or stupid(your choice as to which)I feel it kept me from being straight-forward with the woman I wanted to be the mother of my children.
My question then is this- Do I include this as part of R talk that I bring up now? Or is it water under the bridge and I will have to live with it for the rest of my life and don't even worry about bringing up a R talk at the present time?
I am a better person and would be a better a husband if given the chance. I know this is her decision to make but I feel like doing nothing is not helping the situation. It is very hard to talk on the phone or by text to her, whether it is her initiating it or it is me making contact. I still hear the hurt and resentment in her voice. When I see her I look into her eyes and I see hurt but also I see a lot of questions. Like "why couldn't you tell me this sooner?" or " I don't want to believe you will keep up the changes because if I believe you and come back I might get hurt again?".
I think this part of the reason she does not want me to move back because when we are on the phone or texting she can be tough. When we are together she has to look at me and I am able to understand and empathize with her now unlike before and I think it bothers her that I have acquired this capability or just
realized I had this capability all along and didn't know how to use it. When I look into her eyes I now understand how much I have hurt her and more importantly what I need to do to make our M stronger than before.
I do not tell her what IMC has taught me instead with limited personal contact I am trying to show her. I just wish she wouldn't keep me at an arms length so much. Any help on the questions or any suggestions as to how to soften her heart some?
My W told me that she felt so alone for the last two years of our M. I have tried over the past six months during our S to give her time and space. I have tried probably not very well to not pursue but to at least keep contact with her. I slipped up a couple times and told the W that I loved her.
Over the last 3 weeks I have not contacted her. She contacted me twice and I replied after a few hours but kept it short. I have not gone over to the marital home in a month.
I guess what I am asking is. Is this the smart thing to do? I mean she felt lonely and here I am not contacting her because it hurts too much.
I just dont understand her unwillingness to go to counseling. I have only asked twice since the S.
Am I just supposed to keep waiting because it is her decision to reconcile or not? She has all the power.
Is there some technique to pull her back in and take some of the power back without pushing her away further. I have been GALing and trying to keep a PMA but this feeling that I should be doing something not just waitng for W to get out of the fog or make up her mind is overwelming me at the moment.
The last R talk we had was 8 weeks ago and was brought up by her. She said then that she wanted to move foward with the D but needed a couple weeks because she had to research things because she wants to try and do this without attys involved. After two weeks she told me she didnt have time to do this research so it was going to be a bit longer. I want to know what her thoughts are currently but I am leery of asking because I know I am not supposed to bring up R talk.
I am losing confidence that I am doing right thing and going about this correctly. Any advice?
New development I told my W I was moving back gave a days notice after giving her 8 weeks to come up a draft for separation of assets for me sign then she said she would move out. She did not produce anything. I moved back yesterday not totally back in because she asked for a couple days to move out as she says she cant live with me because she is afraid of me. I told her she did not have to leave because it her house also.
I told her that I still loved her and was totally invested in working all this out. But in the meantime I had to move on with my life and this was the first step. She had said she would get an atty with her Christmas money. Because I was forcing her out of the house. Told her I consulted an Atty to protect myself. She asked why I didn't file then. I told her because she is the WAW and it is up to her to do it. She said she couldn't file because she doesn't have a job and very little money. Go get a job she had one for 14 years prior to this I told her.
She said that because I am NO longer drinking, I am in IMC, I am losing weight and going to church I think I am holier than thou. I disagreed respectfully and said these are things that I am doing for myself no one else. She said after 17 years of us being together and me being a "drunk".( I am not an alcoholic we both like to go and have good time but that is when most of our arguments started so she labeled me that.) All of the sudden your not drinking but still go to bars. I said correct because honestly that is where our friend base hangs out.
IMHO, She is upset that I am not sitting around moping and I have the desire to not drink which she figured would never happen and it would make it easier for her to leave. She sees all the changes in me and it is making her upset because now she has kinda made her bed by separating and is getting advise to stay away from me but it is confusing because I truly am working on myself during this S and she didn't think I would.
I cannot change her mind about the M she has to do that herself. I need to know how to handle from here. I think atty will not be involved yet so I have some time to let it play out I think. There is more to the story but this is getting a little long. I don't feel good about this because she says she has no place to go but she does it just pulls at my heart when she is hurting even if it is her own doing.
Good for you. You're doing great. She's still trying to find fault in you without realizing that she is the one who has the issues that need working on.
Hang on though because things are going to be much worse. Don't be surprised if she starts accusing you of things you never knew about. Or starts making outrageous claims. Hold your ground.
Why not make a contract with her to provide for her safety?
Sit down and listen to her concerns, get them concretely in writing, and promise with a signature and a witness that the FIRST time any of those things she's concerned about happens, you will move out within 24 hours.
She called the police they came and basically said we cant make either of us leave. This upset her highly and she turned it around on me saying "are you happy with what you are doing?" I said absolutely not. I want to still work on things because I am still in love with her.
I dont think a contract will be acceptable to her. She is just saying these things because she is justifing her position. She told me I was crazy and demented and all of our friends and family told her so.
I said all our friends and family know I want a baby with her. She said anybody who believes that is just as nuts as me.
She called my mom when we first started discussing all this or rather her yelling at me and I trying to validate her feelings. She asked my mom if she knew what was happening and my mom replied yes he is coming to the and thinking about moving back in. She hung up and came out and said " I thought you said I could depend on your family because they love me and I love them." She said that is not the case and my family is conspiring against her. Because they knew I was doing this.
She said she is stupid she should have filed back when we separated but didnt because she didnt think I would surprise her like this and just force my way back in and force her to move out. She says she has no place to go. She has family to stay with it just wont be as free and easy as living by yourself in a nice without anybody to question what you are doing
Is an event like this something that might help a WAW realize that S or D is not all puppy dogs and pigtails? Possibly leading them to reconsider their decision to walk away?
No. She's the one causing all of these things to happen to her so she hasn't had to experience any of her consequences. Just continue doing what you want to do without any fear of what she will or will not do.
Tread lightly during this period. She may look for and come up with made up accusations to have you removed from the home.
It happens all the time.
Thanks Mr Bond,
As far as I know she will be staying somewhere else for a while not in the home with me. At least that is what she told me so it will be easy to tread lightly because I can now begin repairs that I wanted to do over the summer and wont have to contact her to come over any more.
what was her reasoning to call the cops? Did she threaten you before doing it?
No,
She was leaving the home with her some bags I assume for the night. I walked up to her and asked if we could meet today to put her car in her name only so she could then get her own insurance and that would protect us both in the case of an accident. Also said I would call a real estate appraiser to check out the value of the home in its current condition.
She asked how much that would cost and I said no idea you will have to decide that based on what coverage she wanted. She sighed and walked to her car. I told her to be careful. She started the car then decided to dial 911. This all took place after being in the same general vincinity in the house for 3 hours.
I asked her what made her fear me or did someone tell her she should and she danced around the subject but she offered up that she is not being brainwashed.
She then called some people on the phone and told them she didnt feel safe with me around and was wimpering to them I thought for sure someone would come over but no one did. Maybe that played into her decision to finally phone the police as a last ditch effort to get me to back down.
New info I went back to my home yesterday after giving the W the requested time to get some things together without my being there. She knew I was coming back yesterday after work to stay.
I gave one last courtesy text to tell her I was coming home in a few minutes. She texted back "see you later"
When I went in to the house to my surprise nothing was removed, packed or looked like it was going to packed. She came home I said I am in the back bedroom. So she knew I wasn't going to surprise her. When she came up I said hey and I'll be in here. She quick looked at me and went to our bedroom. We did not speak.
She took a shower made her dinner and went downstairs to watch tv. I left her be.
Kinda surprised me that she did all this and stayed overnight considering two days earlier I was crazy and Demented and we couldn't leave under the same roof.And she doesn't feel safe with me around.
I just need to know the bathroom schedule for morning showers other than that I will let her make the first move to discuss other things that we need to agree upon to allow this arrangement to be successful. Or if she want to talk about the M
Am I doing what I should or is there something I am not doing that would help out.
You're doing fine. She's learning that she can't control you. Her calling the cops on you was just an emotional response on her part.
Don't give in.
W still hasn't spoken to me since I moved back. She will answer text though.
I asked her if she was going to use the Christmas decorations in the living room. I told her I would like to buy a Christmas tree I would pay for completely myself if she agreed. If not and she wasn't going to use them then I would like to put them in the attic and clean the living room.
She hasn't responded yet. Not sure if I should have asked to do this. But I am trying to make my life as normal as possible and having a Christmas tree is always something I loved. Even if this Christmas is the worst out of 47. I at least want to give or allow myself some semblance of holiday spirit.
Knowing my W this is something that probably will upset her that is why I am not sure if I should have asked the question. On one hand, it could be considered an unproductive thing to do. On the other hand, It is me GAL back. Why am I conflicted?
Although I am not going to file for D. Should I continue to move in that direction somewhat? For instance, having her car turned over to her name only and having her get her own insurance. This will cost her money that she probably doesn't have. Because I know that she is low on funds Is it wrong of me to begin these types things? Or is it a good thing because then she might realize that together we can do much more. Apart makes it very tough on her to do alone. I don't want to seem controlling or condescending to her though.
She responded back that I could get a Christmas Tree if I wanted but this is no indication that we are reconciling.
And when she went to get a sandwich her turkey was gone so lets keep everything separate so we are clear. Thank you.
I replied I bought my own food and thought that we could talk about things like this instead of text. We don't have to talk about day to day activities if she didn't want to. But know that if she needs something or whatever my door is open just ask or knock.
She replied later.My apologies on the Turkey. I must not have seen it.
I asked her if she was going to use the Christmas decorations in the living room. I told her I would like to buy a Christmas tree I would pay for completely myself if she agreed. If not and she wasn't going to use them then I would like to put them in the attic and clean the living room.
She hasn't responded yet. Not sure if I should have asked to do this.
Next time don't ask her if you can do something, just tell her what you're doing. So you could have said "I'm going to buy a tree and decorate it using the decorations in the living room, let me know if that's a problem." That way if she doesn't respond then she has no reason to gripe when you proceed.
Although I am not going to file for D. Should I continue to move in that direction somewhat? For instance, having her car turned over to her name only and having her get her own insurance.
Not sure if you have an L, but this is really an L question. I've read that in some states you CAN'T take your W off your insurance without her consent if she's already on it, even if you're S'd.
She's trying to get space from you, so it's not productive for you to put her in charge of your basic decisions about your own life. Don't ask her if you can get the tree that you want, that is important to you. You being separated didn't stop Jesus from being born and celebrating what is meaningful to you is important for you. So don't put that responsibility on her to tell you if it's ok or not for you to function.
I agree, telling her you're doing something, if it will impact on her space and surroundings, is polite, and so is giving her an opportunity to speak up if it's going to bother her so you can determine if you can accommodate her needs as well as your own. My only addition is you would need to be specific about the timeframe, such as I'm going to buy a tree on Tuesday so if you have a concern or problem let me know by Sunday. So you're not left wondering if she's going to have a problem and if you can move forward with your plan or not. Be concrete and specific and business-like, polite and considerate.
Don't take actions to "show" her something (in my opinion). And do check with a L about what you should be doing to reasonably protect yourself.
Thanks for replying AS and Adinva. I Meant car insurance not health insurance but you may be correct in either case.
Just trying to be polite not confrontational when it comes to matters of the home. By doing what I want it may upset her and that would certainly be unproductive.
Avoiding confrontation does not create peace. It creates hidden conflict and resentment.
Using the tree, you don't put one up because you don't want to say anything to her (aka be confrontational) that might upset her (mind reading) so instead you're miserable, which she will see, and you have no holiday decorations, which will also be a noticeable change for her. You haven't avoided conflict, you've just shifted it around.
Alternative, you say I want a tree, I'm getting one let me know if you have a problem with that. She says OK. Or she says that will bother me can do xyz, which you can consider. So instead of finding out how she feels, which is loving, you anticipate the words in her mouth, and avoid them, which is fearful and leaves both of you potentially feeling worse than before.
Be careful polite is not a mask for something less noble, like fear.
Excellent comments made me think about and you are cor m rect. Thanks for helping avoid a possible backslide
Sorry was on a phone last night very hard to post from those.
adinva, Thinking about what you said more. You are correct. That is a pattern I have had or we have had throughout our M. I am working hard to correct from my side. I now realize that it is the way I word things that sometime gets me into trouble. I honestly do not mean to attempt to mind read. It is really hard not to do. I need to slow down and choose how I present things to her. Also, it will be much easier to use my actions to speak for me now that we are under the same roof again. I can use this time to refill her love bank and learn what her love languages are. I thought I knew but I was wrong.
The other thing is I always wanted to talk things out but W could not or did not want to. It is there where I started making mistakes. I would take things too personal. I always wanted to fix things. I needed to learn that not all things can be fixed or actually don't even need fixed because they are not huge issues. I turned them into huge issues by trying so hard to fix them or keep the peace.
I feel I have made strides towards doing this and now that I am back home and she is still there it will be a good test for me. I just hope by moving back I didn't force her hand to where she thinks she needs to retain a L. I hope maybe since the emotions have calmed maybe she will just go with it for a while and if she is still deadset on the D then I can not stop that.
Planning ahead possibly. My W was seen at the local mall the other night with a man by my niece. Not sure who he was but I have an idea. She has not said anything to me so she may not know that she was seen.
Do I play it cool because even though we are now under the same we are still separated. We have been getting along since that first night back but we have some work to do. My 180's are working I believe. Not saying much but my actions are speaking for me.
What do I do if she decides to tell me about it? I have no concrete proof of any wrongdoing. It wont be a deal breaker but I also don't want her to think I am ok with it. I am far enough along in my IMC that I think I can handle this in calm and rational way. I just need advice on what to say and how to say it.
If it's not a dealbreaker, what is your motive for telling her?
How would you say whatever it is you need to say?
I guess my motive would be to see how she reacts whether or not it is serious or not, and now that I know about it, would it take the fantasy out of it if this is something to it.
I would say something like "I am hurt that you decided that you needed to look outside the M for something that I apparently wasn't providing you. I am still 100% invested in making our M work but it can not work if this continues. I just wish we could have gone to counseling together or at least talked about your feelings with a neutral person before it went this far. You chose this path so it is up to you now on what is to happen. I want this to work for us. I want a family with you. I am a strong person and this certainly will test that."
Then I guess depending on what she says I will try to validate her feelings and empathize with her.
I am not sure at this I should tell her I am still in love with her or let be unsaid.
Well The Christmas tree I bought looked beautiful. It helped get me through the last week. Pretty much been going about my business without worrying what the W is thinking or doing.
When I bought the tree at the big box store I asked if there was anything she could think of that was needed for the house light bulbs, cleaning agents, etc. She said no but we cant really do any improvements on the house till we see what L say. I told her wasn't thinking that big right now just small cleaning things and such.
I told her I did not have a L I just consulted with one like I am sure she has. No response back to that. She did tell to be careful when filling the hot tub because she ran over the hose and now the metal is really sharp.
later she said that I was leaving lights on in the middle of the night. I said I left them on so you could see better when you got home. If you don't want me to I wont, she said no that is ok then.
When I cleaned the room where I was putting the tree. it looked 100% better and as I was preparing to scrub the carpet the W said I was planning on do that this week. Knowing that this is a pattern that starts arguments between with us,(her not liking me doing work that she perceives to be hers and getting upset when I try to do it. Then I say fine go ahead and do it and I get upset and walk away. Then she never ends up doing it causing resentment on my part. This is a big 180 on my part.)
I politely said no worries I am already dirty it is no problem at all.This time she didn't get upset. I believe because she knows she had 6 months to do this and no job so the house could have been much better taken care of in my absence. I have continued to do small fix it things around the house since I have moved back. Honestly, these things are such small things I have no idea why I didn't do them before just lazy I guess.
After the holidays I plan on starting to clean the other rooms in the house extremely well and paint them. Havent painted since we bought the house. One of her big things is she has said is I never took her took opinion into account. When it comes time to choose paint colors do I ask her what she likes? I would dearly love to keep the house even if we don't reconcile. Im not sure I can afford it on my own but I am looking into it. She thinks we are selling it hence, her earlier comment about repairs. She knows I love the house but I have told her I don't think I can afford to buy her out and do it on my own. So we must do everything like we are planning on selling.
I want her to have a hand in the repair choices because if things start to turn around we will already be heading in a direction with these upgrades that we both agreed on. Also if she sees what these repairs do to the home we bought together, It may show her that all these things we talked about doing are now getting done. Thus moving us forward instead of just treading water.
For myself personally, Just having a clean house has improved my mood markedly in a little over a week. I don't know if I can say the same for the W but this is for me not her.
She hasn't offered to help so I am doing it on my own like I promised myself. She did say she would dust around a collection of her figurines when I asked if I could move them to do it.
Are there any good conversation starters for someone in my position? I told her we didn't have to discuss day to day activities with each other. I watch TV upstairs and she watches downstairs. Is it worth it to ask if I can watch TV with her no matter what she is watching or is that considered pursuing. If she says yes or I don't care maybe casual conversation will start. I told her about a month ago that I missed talking with her about nothing in particular.
She did not accept my small Christmas gift so maybe I should delay asking to watch TV in the same room with her for awhile.
Yesterday when I came home from work the Christmas gift I gave W was moved from where I placed it on her bed when I gave it to her. She has left the bedroom door wide open the last couple days when she is not home so I didn't consider it invading any privacy since I did not enter the room to see it. Not sure if she opened the gift or not.
She didn't speak much to me yesterday just some talk about the mail.
Im doing ok with this living arrangement for the moment. Just want to make sure I am proceeding in the correct manner. I cant help wondering if there is someone else and if there is will I be able to spot the signs of possible trouble in the A.
I am not ok with A if it is happening but I want to be there to pick up the pieces if a break up does happen or I would like to do something that will drive a wedge between them to facilitate an end to it. I know if I confront her my first question will be why don't you move in with him then if he is giving you what you think I couldn't? It would be interesting to hear her answer.
If she did see the person that saw her with OM. I hope she does not think I am Ok with this going on because I haven't confronted her about it.
This is what is confusing me right now. Do I confront or just play it cool? I don't want to be made a fool of but I also don't want to push her away any further.
I am trying to do all things I wanted to do while I was not living in the home. The problem is it will start to cost some money and she said we cant do any improvements until we speak to the L. Who knows when that will be. I want to make some updates that I know she has wanted for a long time but at the same time not sure if that is the prudent thing to do. Even though it my feeling that once she sees what it looks like it may help her start to see that maybe she should give our M another try.
Weekend went ok, both the W and I did our own thing. Not much talking again. I continued with my goal to do things around the house. I told W I was going to clean the kitchen but would put her stuff off to the side for her to do with what she wanted. She said to just clean up any mess I was making and she would do hers.
I said ok figuring it wouldn't get done and I would do it in a couple days. To my surprise she cleaned the bathroom she primarily uses one day(it hadn't been cleaned in the 6 months I was not at the house)and the next she cleaned the kitchen. Don't get me wrong I am happy about it. Just wondering why all the sudden she has decided to do these things now instead of before. Is this a baby step?
without much conversation between us it is hard to try and fill her love bank. Should I still attempt a kind word about her once a day or just leave it be?
I am trying to be patient but it gets hard sometimes to resist to try and start a good conversation with her because of the lack of communication we had before the S. I so far have done it but it is very difficult.
Any advice on what to do when this feeling of antsiness comes over me?
Does anybody feel this way?
Now that I have moved back home I am much much happier than when I was at my Parents house.
I am doing all things I told myself I was going to do. Cleaning, getting things ready to refurbish the house. All things the W said I never do. I pretty much go about my business and let W do her thing.
I still find myself doing things for her that just get done in the midst of taking care of the house. Shoveling the driveway, washing dishes that she left in the sink etc...
Is it ok to do these things since they are being done along with normal day to day stuff that I need to do anyways?
Might she see this as pressure? Before I moved back in not much cleaning was taking place. Now that I am back and cleaning myself she is not helping me but is cleaning "her stuff" bathroom, kitchen.
I really want to communicate with her but she goes back and forth, 2 days of no talking with me, to a Thank you for shoveling the driveway and small talk about the roads and weather. Then it is back to shutting the bedroom door when I walk past or I am in my bedroom.
I am having a hard time figuring out when to attempt to start a conversation with her or to just let her do all the initiating.
Any help would be appreciated.
Ok I need to ask a question
If my W, who is a WAW, all of the sudden starts to be nicer to me but I know it is because she might be running low on money how do I handle this scenario?
I am doing the best job I can at DB and 180's. I am afraid though if she does start to warm up to me a little it is for the wrong reasons that I wont be able to play it cool even though I get what is happening.
What sorta things can I do that will show her that while I feel for the predicament she is in she chose this and must live with the consequences?
I don't mind being a little standoffish but I don't want to take such a hard stance that it pushes her away either.
I cant ask her to go to counseling or to rekindle the R in light of this issue that would amount to emotional blackmail correct?
Just wondering if anybody else has had this happen to them and how you handled it.
I would not put conditions on the money. either you are comfortable giving it and that it or you are not. I don't know your whole situation. we are separate but do not have enough resources to separate money yet. so, I haven't had to deal with this yet although, I am starting to think about separating money soon. its been a month.
Well I am comfortable giving it her after all she is my W but I don't want her to think I am ok with the S. I want to work on things in order to reconcile. But I want her to want to come back not just because she is low on money but because she realizes that I always had a plan if we were to become under-employed and that it would always work out because together we could do anything not just money but everything Babies, home remodeling everything.
We have been separated for almost 7 months. I recently, 3 weeks ago, moved back to the marital home because I felt I could handle it plus I was paying half the bills and not living there so it was time. The W is unhappy but oh well.
A little over two weeks after the S my W lost her job and has been unemployed ever since.
We still have joint accounts and she pays the bills after I transfer my share to her. The only thing I worry about is we have a joint Money Market account that I have been putting money in for about 4 years from every paycheck she does not put any into this account. We always used this money for vacations or car emergencies etc. Since there was no vacation this year it has built up quite a lot she knows I plan on using this to fix up the home.
I don't think she would but technically she is entitled to half of it.
Thanks for responding Paul!
nit84, I would talk to a lawyer. You don't have to do anything with the information you get, but it's good to have it.
If you suspect that W is manipulating you, then decide for yourself what you want to do about that. Your best bet may be to assume the best until you get burned (assuming the consequences aren't too dear). If you get burned, then make a different decision next time.
In terms of letting her know you're not okay with the sitch, I'm sure she knows that.
When you say you don't want her to come back just for money, think that through. Pretend she DID come back and agree to work on the marriage, but that money was her motivation.
You can prepare for that. Think about what YOUR requirements are for her to return to the marriage. It might be attending Retrovaille together, going to MC together, talking to a DB coach together, there's probably a list of things you would want her to do, and behaviors you would want to be a part of your *new* relationship.
If you set up your return requirements right, then it won't really matter what her initial motivation is -- if she takes the first step, she takes the first step. If the help you get is good, she may find the motivation to run the whole program, and then you won't care why she started. Either that or she'll wash out because the money won't be worth the work she has to do. Either way your integrity is intact.
Acc
Acc,
Thanks for your thought!! I am thinking like you are just wasnt sure if it was alright to ask her to do certain things if she needs money. This isnt spending money this is money to pay her share of the bills with. I told her we should split grocery bill but so far she has decided to do that on her own still.
I have consulted a L I believe she has also
I also dont care how she comes back I just want her and would hope she would like to work on marriage realizing that I am the one who has and will continue to take care of her forever.
I want her to realize that no matter what we will get through anythingtogether and I have shown over the last 6 months that I am indeed the man she fell in love with only now I am equipped with a better understanding of what it takes to have a sucessful marriage. I just need the oppurtunity.
"I also dont care how she comes back I just want her and would hope she would like to work on marriage realizing that I am the one who has and will continue to take care of her forever."
Terrible way to think. Do you really want to be under the control of another person? Shows weakness and not strength.
"I want her to realize that no matter what we will get through anythingtogether and I have shown over the last 6 months that I am indeed the man she fell in love with only now I am equipped with a better understanding of what it takes to have a sucessful marriage. I just need the oppurtunity."
This is what you don't understand. SHE has to also understand how SHE contributed to the M failing. Without that, you can be the best person in the world and she will still find fault based on HER reasons of leaving in the first place.
Don't sell yourself short and turn into a wimp now.
MrBond
Thanks for responding! This is my confusion, I understand that I am not totally to blame for the M failing but don't know how to proceed forward.
If she loses her little bit of income she has I believe she will have to ask me to pay more than my fair share to keep the household running and not ruin my credit or hers. Unless she finds or has found a sugar daddy to give her the money. It is here where it gets murky for me.
Do I say not my problem you are still responsible for it however you get it? This is a pretty hard stance Im not sure I am ready to take.
I don't want to be a wimp about things so is there a middle ground here? Some way to approach things showing her that I will not be walked-on yet I will be there to help?
I have always been the rescuer of the M. My counselors words not mine. Meaning I took what she said about things and then tried to explain why this way or that way would be better than her way. This became an issue obviously because she felt like I thought she wasn't smart enough to figure things out. This is not true but I can see her side of things better now that I have stepped back and looked at our M from a different point of view.
She always waited for me to make the first move on a lot of things. Then she would react sometimes good most times bad. Only thing that I had a hard time budging from is the financial well being of the household. I always discussed things with her but felt like she could care less as long as the bills were paid and there was food on the table.
Not until recently, the day I moved back, did she tell me that she thought I was the one who ran up the credit cards even though things we put on there were for the house or us and she was with me if it wasn't a gift for her. I never bought anything for myself without talking to her first and honestly I bought for myself maybe a handful of times.
I know she needs to own up to her part in the M failing. Does something need to happen in order to make her think about what part she played? She told me that since she had no job all she did was think about what went wrong. I think she sat and thought about all she thought I did wrong.
I know She has to be her own person. But it is frustrating to me because I truly didn't think of it as rescuing, I thought it is what a husband does for his wife and future family.
I know she waits for me to act because of another thing she said the day I moved back. I blurted out that I had a L after she said I was forcing her to get a L. I don't have one but did consult one about 4 months back. She said "If you have a L why don't you file for D". I looked at her and said "YOU are the one who walked away it is your option to file not mine." She then proceeded to say "it is a lot work to do that and I have no money. She said "I should have filed way back at the beginning of the S." I asked why she didn't and got no response.
Is there something I can do or not do to help her start think about her part in this mess?
'I don't want to be a wimp about things so is there a middle ground here? Some way to approach things showing her that I will not be walked-on yet I will be there to help?"
Stop with the wanting to help her. Just from what you said SHOWS you are a rescuer. I'm surprised you seemed surprised your C told you that. Leave her be. What you're going through isn't close to someone being walked on. There are many others here who are being treated worse.
"I know she needs to own up to her part in the M failing."
No she doesn't. She may never do this. Stop trying to control what YOU think she NEEDS to do. The only person you can control is you.
"I know She has to be her own person. But it is frustrating to me because I truly didn't think of it as rescuing, I thought it is what a husband does for his wife and future family."
There is nothing wrong with helping your spouse. Stop making it sound like it's a bad thing. The problem is that your W is blaming that as a reason she's not "independent". That's her self-talk. Just stop saving her.
"I know she waits for me to act because of another thing she said the day I moved back."
Mindreading. Most WAS's say that. They aren't usually the ones to initiate any action. They just want out of what they perceive is a bad situation.
"Is there something I can do or not do to help her start think about her part in this mess?"
It's comments like this that make me wonder if you actually read DB or DR. Have you?
MrBond,
Thanks again for your comments. I have read DR a couple times now. I just have a hard time trying to implement things in the book 100% of the time. I have been doing some things from the book, I feel pretty well, could I be doing a better job Absolutely!!
Im not surprised the C told me I am a rescuer just didn't think of it in quite those terms.
Let me ask you though. Is making sure my credit rating stays at a good level by paying bills that we have that she obviously cant help with wrong? I know that 50% of these bills are her responsibility but if she cant pay them the credit card companies don't care they still need paid. How could I handle this in a different way so that I don't look like a safety net?
I also understand that she owes me nothing as far as owning up to her part in the M failing. I guess it is just the "fix it" mentality that everyone talks about on here that I have a real problem with. The C also said that W is a reactor and not a proactor. She told me to just observe what is going on and not act so much. That is where the comment comes from about me filing for D. I have been observing more and trying to take things in before just jumping to conclusions or mind reading.By observing what the W is doing or saying it leads me to think a certain way sometimes. I know this is bad but it is hard not to do.
I do feel for others that have it far worse than me. I have to remember that sometimes a bad sitch for me would be something someone else is hoping for.
Thanks again you are a big help and I appreciate it!!
Journaling here
It has started to show that my lack of communication skills are my biggest problem. Since I have been posting here I have noticed that after I proof read my thoughts they sound good. But then when I get replies it shows me that if this is the way I am approaching things it could lead down the wrong path.
My issue is Once I read the replies and they do make sense. I look at what I wrote and how I wrote it and it is not exactly what I meant(or is it?). I notice that I use the word "need" way too much and probably don't have to. The word "want" may be more appropriate in some instances.
All this has helped me realized that if I cant communicate my thoughts to the board correctly. How am I supposed to do this with the W? Don't get me wrong she is no master communicator either but that doesn't matter. Its all in how I try to get things across when the opportunity presents itself that matters.
I have some work left to do but I feel that I can get better at communicating my thoughts to everyone not just the W eventually. Does anyone have any suggestions on things that might help me?
Being here and reading and writing have helped my communications skills tremendously.
It's great that you are realizing you need help in that area.
The most important communication skill you can use with your S is listening, really listening.
Read Adinva's posts, she is a wonderful, direct, clean communicator.
Also, if you add a sig to your posts it's helpful to readers-go to My Stuff on the header, click on My profile and the sig is near the bottom. Thanks.
Thanks labug, You are correct about Adinva.
I will add sig also
MrBond,
Im not surprised the C told me I am a rescuer just didn't think of it in quite those terms.
Just keep in mind that rescuer constantly lets the victim (W) know that he thinks she can't do anything. And because you're afraid to let her fall, see her hurt, you aren't allowing her to live her life.
Stand back, show her you believe she can do things without you.
Let me ask you though. Is making sure my credit rating stays at a good level by paying bills that we have that she obviously cant help with wrong? I know that 50% of these bills are her responsibility but if she cant pay them the credit card companies don't care they still need paid. How could I handle this in a different way so that I don't look like a safety net?
You are still married? Is there a legal separation? Is she actively looking for a job? I don't know that there is a different way because this all seems to be marital debt created by a still married couple.
Just let this play out, continue to do as your C suggests and see how it plays out.
labug,
Thank you for the input! I started this way back when the S first took place. I told her she should pay the bills since she was staying in the home and had access to a computer and all the bills would be mailed to the home. I paid the bills from early on in the M. I wanted her to do it back then but she doesn't keep a checkbook and bounced 4 or 5 checks.
I then took over paying them but always asked her input on how much extra we should pay towards credit cards and mortgage to pay things down quicker.
Since the S she has paid all the bills and I transfer my portion into her account as we still have joint accounts but no longer do we just in and transfer from each other accounts. Kinda joint but separate I guess. She said that I was the one who decided that I would pay the bills when we first M. I didn't want to bring up the check issue as that would have been bringing up the past and there was nothing to gain by it except "winning" an argument.
When certain issues arose with bills I asked her to take care of them instead of offering to do it or just doing it without her knowledge.
There is no legal separation, She says she is looking for a job but I don't ask these questions because its her life to do with what she wants. She did tell me she passed on, back in July, going back to a previous job because they offered her substantially less, she later told me what was offered and it was her starting salary from 2 years ago about 10% less than what she was making when she left to take the job that she lost in July. With overtime she would have made about the same amount as the job she just lost and would not have missed a paycheck. Again, this did not seem to be a fight I wanted to pursue because we were separated and she could do whatever she thought best for her.
To me I would have taken it. She didn't like it because of the traffic and commute times back then that is why she switched jobs to begin with.
Now if she took that job back, it just wouldn't be the commute and traffic it would screw with her gym routine. I, of course, do not know this for sure but that is what I think imho.
She claims that she has no money, which I believe and know first hand, and that is why she hasn't filed for D. She said you have the money why don't you file?
She said she should have filed when we first S. I asked why she didn't and got no response.
Just thinking out loud. Since the W and I aren't really talking much. Is it ok, for instance, for me sit down and watch TV in the same room as her and not ask her? I dont really care what it is she is watching.
It is just a way to see if maybe she would start a conversation about anything or get up and retreat to the bedroom. I have no problem being around her. I always say "hi" when I come home or she does but that is about as far as it goes on most nights.
Is this type of action by me just asking for trouble?
Should I let her do every bit of the initiating?
Make yourself scarce. Do not hang around. Read Sandie rules
It is just a way to see if maybe she would start a conversation about anything or get up and retreat to the bedroom.
IMHO: If you do things because you hope for a reaction from W; then you pursue or likewise! If you sit down because you want to watch what’s on TV then do so, but if you sit down to examine Ws reactions - then don’t.
Focus on you and what you want!
Just my 2c!
If she doesn't want to be around you or it looks like you're just hanging around, I agree, don't/. you're not making things any better.
All in all it was pretty quiet weekend. Did some GALing, continued to do things around the house and didn't backslide at all.
Saw MC yesterday. I am to continue to observe what is going on but not tear it down and think too much. I am doing a decent job at this. One thing that is bothering me though.
Yesterday I screwed up the TV by hitting the wrong buttons. I tried and tried to fix it myself but couldn't. I went upstairs and told the W about this and asked if she knew what to do. To my surprise she stopped cooking her dinner and came down and corrected the problem. I asked what she did, she told me, and I thanked her.
While she was messing around I had this feeling come over me like I wanted to or should try to strike up a conversation. It didn't take long for her to fix the problem so my opportunity went away quickly. I always want to talk to her but for some reason the feeling was different this time. I felt connected to her.
When she came home earlier the door was locked and she knocked for me to open it. This is a new thing because other times she would set things down and get out a her key and do it herself. Also, she has taken to cleaning the house without me starting to do it first. We aren't helping each other but are cleaning different parts of the home at the same time.
Then it is back to shutting the bedroom door when I am near and no talking or interacting again. Although, I had to speak with her about a bill so I knocked on the door but didn't open it. She asked what I needed I told her and left it at that. Her voice sounded as if she might be sobbing.
A thought just occurred to me.
I have moved back to the marital home. I am doing what I told myself I would. Cleaning the house, preparing for some upgrades, GALing, letting wife have her space and trying some 180's.
If the wife loses her source of income in a few weeks, I will have to pick up the financial slack. She is very involved in the gym that she goes to. Any normal job with commute time will play havoc with her routine at the gym, I believe this is hampering her job search. I am not positive of this because there is not much communication between us so I am just guessing.
While I work 40-50 hours per week, I still find time to go work out, and still do things around the house, but not everyday twice a day like my W. I have no physical proof of an A but by just observing there is a strong possibility of at least an EA and most likely a PA. I also believe this hampering the job search.
Not sure if my W suspects I know or not again no communication
My issue is how to handle these situations?
While I need to pick up more of the bill paying to keep the household running. My W for lack of a better term gets to "mooch" off me sort of. If we were still together this is not even considered a problem.
But since we are technically S. The wife gets to do whatever she feels like, Gym two times a day, food, possible A, roof over her head and I have to take it.
Is she thinking about me like I am an idiot because I might have feeling about an A but am not confronting and as long as he is paying I might as well stay and are other people looking at me and saying he is crazy doesn't he see what is going on?
In reality I am not naïve, I just love my W and want her to come back.
I understand from reading DR that all the work is on me. I have been doing all those things. IMC, GAL, 180's, How then am I to handle a situation where all these possibly aren't working or won't work.
I can continue doing all things indefinitely. It just seems like right now my W is not having to deal with any of the consequences of being a WAW. She said she has no money to file for D. Without a job she certainly won't have the money so I guess my question is. Is there a way to make S life a little more uncomfortable for her and it not be considered going against DBing principles?
I feel like the W is cake-eating and I am allowing it to happen is this normal to feel this way
By continuing to do things indefinitely I mean, I can keep trying different 180's if one is not working. I can keep going to IMC and GAL.
I am much happier with myself than I was 7 months ago because I am DBing and also because I am back at home.
It is just hard to understand my WAW. I am standing for my M and will continue to do so but some times even though I love her with all my heart. I wonder if it is better to D then Pray down the road that she then realizes what a mistake it was to walk away. If I am there for her at that time maybe we could start anew.
My gut tells me this is not the direction to go but it is an internal battle I have at some points with myself
If the wife loses her source of income in a few weeks, I will have to pick up the financial slack.
"If" implies that currently she still has her income, and that she may or may not lose it? I'm not sure I'd worry about it until it happens.
She is very involved in the gym that she goes to.
What is it about that that bothers you? WAS's all push away from the LBS, that's just part of it. They isolate themselves in different ways. Some party and drink the nights away. Some climb into OP's bed every night. Some go on wild spending sprees. Frankly getting involved in a gym sounds pretty good compared to the alternatives.
While I need to pick up more of the bill paying to keep the household running. My W for lack of a better term gets to "mooch" off me sort of. If we were still together this is not even considered a problem.
While you both live under the same roof there's going to be blending of assets, I wouldn't consider it mooching unless she's not contributing anything.
But since we are technically S. The wife gets to do whatever she feels like, Gym two times a day, food, possible A, roof over her head and I have to take it.
You don't have to take it, you can move out again. But if your overall goal is saving the M, I think you need to stay put and learn to accept things as they are for now.
I understand from reading DR that all the work is on me. I have been doing all those things. IMC, GAL, 180's, How then am I to handle a situation where all these possibly aren't working or won't work.
GAL and 180's are as much for you as they are for saving your M. Even if you don't save the M you still emerge a better person, and more prepared for your next R. As for whether they're "working", you have no way of knowing. Most WAS's don't recover slowly. Just like it seemed like a switch was flipped at BD, so it often seems when they come back. It's practically an overnight change. They can be cold and distant and uncaring for a year and then suddenly they talk your arm off for 6 hours about how they've changed their minds and want to work on things. It's very unpredictable.
It just seems like right now my W is not having to deal with any of the consequences of being a WAW.
You don't know what's going on inside her. 7 months after BD my W seemed completely happy with living on her own, but then she disclosed to me that she was crying in private every day because she was hurting and confused. Don't assume your W is enjoying being a WAS, she probably isn't.
AS, Thanks for the thoughts!!
When talking about my W losing her income. That is just being aware that I need to have a plan in place if this happens.
Being involved in the gym is a very good thing, she has lost over 70lbs in about a year. Only problem is it take time and dedication which is what she is doing but I don't think she is looking for job very hard.
I work out and still work 40-50 hrs/week. My progress at the gym is slower than hers because I am doing other things(bringing income to the household) besides just the gym. I still have lost 35lbs and I am pretty happy about that. If we were still together and S never happened this would be a totally different story. We could overcome a job loss together and things would work out.
The reason she goes to the gym so much also could be a possible A. No concrete proof but signs sorta point to it. I am choosing to let it go for now till I have a better handle on this.
The "mooching" comes in if she loses her income source and doesn't honestly try to find work. She has passed up opportunities to go back to a previous job but the commute time would affect her time at the gym.
I am "taking" the fact that she has more free time than me but I just don't want to be taken advantage of. At some point shouldn't she want to bringing in her own money? After all she thought I was controlling in our M. With me paying the bills is that not controlling the situation?
You are correct that I don't know what she is going through. A couple months back she did mention that I have no idea how lonely she was after I moved out but she had our dog at least. Our dog then Passed away and she said that she was lonely all over again but I wasn't in the house. so it was worse this time. I tried to validate her feelings. I think I did but it didn't change anything.
Now that I have moved back I feel I just have to observe what is going on and act from there. The only problem is knowing how to act in a certain situation if it comes up so that I don't push her away any further than she is already.
I just wish she would at least talk to me a little . Not about the R, not about her life or my life. Just normal everyday small talk.
I mentioned to her that my Uncle is pretty sick on Monday she said she was sorry to hear I said thanks. This morning I mentioned my Aunt had to be put in a nursing home to recover and I got nothing.
These are family members she cared dearly for just 8 months ago. I'm not looking for sympathy here just keeping her up to date on people she loved or maybe still loves idk.
Maybe I am taking these instances a little too personal but my W has never been an uncaring person to anybody, not even strangers, so to have her act this way is a bit surprising and I won't lie it makes me angry. I know she distancing herself from me but still her actions are a surprise.