The old thread locked:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2390057&page=9Wonka - two flavors of actions - big - I decided what kind of car to buy, though W and d15 wanted one of those little Fiats, and little - the tulips are planted. Is that what you are looking for?
sandi2 - the coach twice said "since I am a divorce busting coach" or something similar. The thought behind the strategy seemed to be to do a 180 by taking the lead on this, to say sorry and that she has treated me lousily in so many words, and to encourage W and I to heal back together. I've also read here on DB that the shock of the real often causes a WAS to reconsider. I find it risky to say "sure, I'll sign the divorce papers" and also to put the house on the market earlier than W had planned, especially given her clearly stated intentions.
All - I'll decide something. The worst case would be to not have done anything, to not have given something a shot. L
PM -
This version of me would handle conflict immediately, like my boss does.
Convictions: every person has innate value and deserves respect. We are responsible to each other and the planet (lots more political stuff could come here). Life is ultimately meaningless, but since it is so, you might as well put a brave face on it and make the best of things. Humor is good. Love your kids and your spouse and your friends.
A bunch more thou shalts could come here, but perhaps this gives a flavor. Luke
PM -
oThis version of me would handle conflict immediately, like my boss does.
oConvictions: every person has innate value and deserves respect. We are responsible to each other and the planet (lots more political stuff could come here). Life is ultimately meaningless, but since it is so, you might as well put a brave face on it and make the best of things. Humor is good. Love your kids and your spouse and your friends.
-----
o daring to be honest, with authentic, caring communication with my W and kids, just like I had with my dad about his incontinence
o positive (the glass is half full, folks)
o capable of the 9 miles on weekends (and I really should stretch and weightlift too)
o meditate in the mornings, to quiet my mind
o being more socially at ease, like my French guy friend
o creating my life actively, like the men's lunch club thing
o better in touch with my real self - so less mind and thought
Take a look at each goal individually and jot down a plan of a few steps on how you can reach that goal. Keep them handy so you can remind yourself.
Specifically to how you handle conflict and standing firm in your core convictions, start practicing it immediately. It will feel uncomfortable at first, but come naturally as it develops into habit...the newer version of you.
Getting advice here is great, but it's easy to become dependent upon that advice and not learn the lessons. That's the "following orders" I wrote about previously. So instead of asking advice on how to handle situations here on this MB, ask YOURSELF, "How would the future version of me handle this situation?" And then DO THAT.
Start practicing.
Become the person you want to be. "Become" is a verb, LuckyLuke, it's an action...you have to do the work; it isn't just going to happen magically.
Focus on you for now, the you you want to become.
-PM
Questions:
What is the objective in moving to the master bedroom?
So the objective at that time was to be aggressive enough to claim your bed while your W was occupying that room.
Did you explain to your DB Coach that the W was no longer in the master bedroom?
Answer:
sandi2 - the coach twice said "since I am a divorce busting coach" or something similar. The thought behind the strategy seemed to be to do a 180 by taking the lead on this, to say sorry and that she has treated me lousily in so many words, and to encourage W and I to heal back together. I've also read here on DB that the shock of the real often causes a WAS to reconsider. I find it risky to say "sure, I'll sign the divorce papers" and also to put the house on the market earlier than W had planned, especially given her clearly stated intentions.
Talked to W. Said I was sorry for being such a lousy husband. She said I have no husband, that it is best to move on, that she has wasted 20 years of her life.
Said I would no longer accept being insulted, etc. She said she did not care, as I was an empty vessel, never spontaneous, always studying things, trying to become assertive, to get friends, that I had studied her to learn assertiveness. I said this was never my intention. I said well, I guess I should add thank you to my saying sorry.
She said if she hadn't married me I would be a weird little guy, and that only thanks to her did I have good kids. That now she was only waiting to finish the house and sell it.
Bottom line - neither sorry nor no more insults had any effect.
L
Oh, and that there is no life in me. I said I am trying to find it.
She said I was like a succubus, copying her, being outgoing with neighbors and friends.
That she stayed with me only for the kids' sakes. That she would try to love me after the first BD, when I cried ('mewled') a lot.
L
Oh, and healing wasn't relevant, that there was nothing there that needed healing.
Clarification: after first BD, I pathetically cried, and she decided to stay.
W and d15 are home, on vacation, for the next week. I may go to the States in two weeks, and possibly EE again. Lunch club meets for first time next Wednesday.
Luke
Bottom line - neither sorry nor no more insults had any effect.
It isn't the
telling her you wouldn't accept being insulted any longer that will have an effect, it's the part where you follow through and
actually don't accept being insulted anymore.
-PM
Luke - this is the first TINY step in a very long walk. A walk that may not even end with your W, but it will end with a new Luke!
My situation is much shorter/different than yours, but the first time I decided to make changes, and talked to my W, she laughed and left. She told me she was done, disgusted by me, she was moving on. She was going to date, she was finally happy, that I had ruined any chance of her ever loving again. I could go on and on.
My point is your W is going to suspect EVERY change you make until it is consistent and independent, much like PM said above. I went back your posts from a few weeks ago and the last few days of posts are much better than then, so you ARE improving. Just keep going.
I know everyone starts out solely focused on getting back their WAS, but keep shifting your goals toward becoming a better Luke.
Jon, PM - thanks.
Yeah, I don't see any reason to change being more assertive, even if my W thinks I am imitating her, and working on getting friends, and GAL in general.
One good thing from this morning was daring to speak to my W - .
If EE (I may be there again, this time in a support role) works out, I am hopeful for even further improvement.
Luke
Just become who you want to become. You're not doing it for her, but she - everyone - will definitely notice over time.
Don't let what she says and does bother you. Pretend that...I don't know...you're rubber and she's glue.
Actively pursue the man you want to be, LL! Focus on your basics and forget about the rest for now. You can do it!
-PM
Thanks, PM, I really appreciate your encouragement!
Luke,
you need to get a tattoo. or grow your beard, or shave if you already have one. just go shake yourself up.
one positive you may be able to take out of all of this mess is that you know exactly where you stand.
at this point, you have nothing to lose.
there's no longer any need to worry what she thinks, or that your actions may in some way ruin your chance to save your M.
go out and just be.
This is so frustrating. When are you going to stop letting her walk all over you? You should not have even let it escalate that far. The only thing you haven't done is stand up to her. You let her spew all over you and all you did was defend yourself. STOP doing that. As I and others have recommended, you should have just looked her cold in the eye, stopped her from talking and told her you will not be talked to in that manner any longer and then walk away.
She knew she could bully you and she did. Badly. I can see where she feels you haven't changed AND you didn't have to keep telling her she was wrong or that you were changing, etc. Start asserting yourself in a more powerful manner.
LL, have you tried any classes or books on being more assertive?
I guess you would need to want to change that part of you, is that something that you want?
Mr. Bond,
Some of what wife said was true. I told her she was wrong on what she was wrong about. I started as an unassertive, introverted nerd, many years ago, and now that is changing.
I took assertiveness classes in college, and have read a number of books on it - thanks jp. 'Your perfect right' strikes me as the best of the bunch.
Ran into French guy friend, with whom I had played music last weekend, and he had such a good time that he is buying a bass guitar and we are getting together again (his Saturday morning run was 15 miles this time...), before I leave for the States. Somehow everything clicked at this last jam.
Beard started (last time I had one and shaved it off, I left a Hitler mustache on for an extra day, for fun - you should see how people respond to you - ).
Luke
Sounded more like she did more of the same and so did you. You already told her before you were changing. Don't keep validating her. I don't know if you noticed it or not, but just when you think you've become more assertive, she kicks it up a notch and insults you even more. The goal is to be assertive and proud of yourself and to have enough self-esteem to stop her from spewing even before she starts.
So no longer validate... not sure I agree, as it seems very unDBing... but I see your point with no longer taking c**p. One question that comes up is whether I want to be married to this person any longer - certainly not as she is currently.
Nothing changes in my goal of being more assertive and GAL. Just got invited to make music again, this after having run into another friend while biking (and W returns from her run to find the two of us talking), and having bought a (used) table I like yesterday, without asking anyone.
If W claims I have learned something cultural from her, I can point out that I was interested in the humanities before her and didn't need her to be interested in poetry, art history, etc.
Not much point in having any R talk with this woman just now.
Luke
"So no longer validate... not sure I agree, as it seems very unDBing..."
No your problem is that you continue to validate her and it's been years that you've been in this sitch. Stick to what you said before and don't keep explaining your actions.
"If W claims I have learned something cultural from her, I can point out that I was interested in the humanities before her and didn't need her to be interested in poetry, art history, etc. "
Why do you keep having to have these long drawn out explanations? If she says something like that, laugh at her and say something like "yeah right". And then walk away as if you had some private joke at her expense. Don't feed the fire. Extinguish it right off the bat. You don't need to constantly explain things.
Validating and agreeing are not the same. You are sometimes validating her statements that are putting you down, by agreeing with them. That isnt db either, luke. Validate the emotion not the content. For example when she said you mimicked her when you acted cultured, possibly you could say, that sounds frustrating. I dont see it that way, but i can hear how frustrated you sound.
Of course then she'll say something downright cruel and you have to put a stop to it then and there.
So validating isnt completely useless, but its gotta be just recognizing HER emotion, i dont think you've done much of that over the years because you tend to focus on content over emotion.
I think it is interesting that in a backhanded way she pointed out that you do show some qualities that she admires. Although she thinks they originated in HER, and wants to put that aspect down, it did sound for a moment that she viewed you sort of positively for a second there. Keep working on standing up for yourself.
And no, dont explain how you were cultured before. Explaining that looks weak. And opens the issue up for her to disagree with and argue the new points you raised. When you argue, i'll wager, she never comes out having more respect for you than before. Shrugging off her ridiculous statement with a confident chuckle is better because she cant argue with that.
So no longer validate... not sure I agree, as it seems very unDBing...
Perhaps, but DB'ing is ultimately about doing what works. In the book it clearly states to make changes, analyze the effect, and adjust accordingly.
but I see your point with no longer taking c**p.
I hope so. Following your thread it appears as though you haven't ACTED on this, though. Talk is cheap. Follow through with ACTION!
Not much point in having any R talk with this woman just now.
Agreed. At this point, R talk is like a hot stove. Don't touch it!
You have your goals, LL. You know what to do. DO IT!
-PM
All - thanks -
I like your hand phrase 'yeah right', Mr. Bond - that is the kind of talk I need to learn.
Adinva - yes, I never thought of the content over emotion angle, though I could hear her voice shaking. Too da*n factual on my part.
PM - I played music with friends again last night, and we hope to do so once more this week, before I go to the US again. d15 and W went to see Gravity. We'll see if W gives me another chance to react to being put down (what do I do when W ignores me if I ask a question? Perhaps it depends on the details?)
d15 home all week, on fall break. Lunch club on Wednesday, (delayed) student interviews on Sunday, fly Tuesday or Wednesday.
L
I wonder what the guys say is a good response when W ignores you.
I think if it's something really minor, ignore her ignoring, just let it go.
If it's a direct question and she's being downright rude, call her out on it. You can't force her to answer you, but you can poke a little fun at her to let her know she's not acting attractively OR getting you upset. Like "oh, the SIlent treatment, REAL mature!" chuckle and walk away.
PM - ...We'll see if W gives me another chance to react to being put down (what do I do when W ignores me if I ask a question? Perhaps it depends on the details?)
I can think of several ways to handle a situations like those, but you've already been given advice multiple times by multiple posters here on what to do so I don't really see the need to keep beating the same dead horse. It's time to stop asking others what to do and start thinking
for yourself about what YOU will do. What the YOU you want to become would do.
Stand firm. Be courageous. Be strong. Act like a man.
Act like a man and you will be treated like a man. Do everything out of love, which INCLUDES setting healthy boundaries of how you allow yourself to be treated. It includes setting these boundaries as examples for your children, who their father is, who their mother is, how a marriage is supposed to operate, and how adults are supposed to conduct themselves.
How are you missing that there couldn't be anything more important than correcting the way you allow yourself to be treated? Stop dancing around the issue with question after question and get to action!
For cripes sake, LL, if you won't do it for yourself, do it for your kids! I KNOW you love your children! Do you want your daughter to think it's okay and normal to treat her future husband like you've been treated? Do you want your son to think it's okay and normal to be treated like you've been treated? By not correcting this issue, what kind of example are you setting for them? What is your inaction and submissiveness teaching them?
I follow your sitch, and I feel like I'm watching you dance around this issue day after day after day. You want to read a book. You want to go to a group. You want to talk about GAL'ing. Those are all paper-cut problems on one of your arms while your other arm is completely broken. If I'm a doctor and you're asking for my help, I don't care about your paper-cuts right now. You need to fix your broken arm first.
So what are you going to do? Keep reaching for the Neosporin? Or do you want to reset that broken arm? I'll help you with your arm, but YOU'RE the one that has to do the work. It may hurt a little bit at first, but I PROMISE you that you'll feel better once it's done.
Let me know what you choose.
-PM
I wonder what the guys say is a good response when W ignores you.
I think it's an exercise in futility. We're on the 8th version of "Unlearning conflict avoidance" - and there are threads prior to that with the same topic - and he still either
1) has no clue how to avoid conflict with his W, or
2) simply won't do it.
Those are the only two possibilities I can fathom.
My guess is he is scared of his W and he is stalling so he can avoid conflict - that would simply fit in with his behavior pattern. If that's the case then it's up to him to
choose to change, and no amount of advice is going to help until he
commits to it.
Why he would be scared of his wife is beyond me, but it's likely habitual behavior that he realizes needs to be "unlearned" given the thread titles. Perhaps once he realizes there is nothing to be scared of, he will be able to think clearly in situations where conflicts arise. Once healthy boundaries are established, fewer conflicts will arise entirely. And that's great! That's the
healthy way to avoid conflicts...with
healthy, mutually respectful boundaries.
I wonder what LL's W is going to do if he works on resetting boundaries. I don't recall him saying she was an unstable gun enthusiast, an ill-tempered ex-Israeli militant, or the daughter of a mob boss. What's there to be scared of?
-PM
If we're going to talk about LL in the 3rd person, I think it's easier and more comfortable for him not to be "in charge". If W makes the decisions and sets the tone for what will be done and what will not be done, he can follow. He's not responsible for making bad decisions, or enforcing unpopular choices. It's just easier not to be primarily responsible.
I think he's perhaps more afraid of stepping up and being in charge than he is of W, and I think that's what drives W nuts.
Luke - I'd like to give you an example of something I just said to my W. I'll admit up front, for about a hour after I said it, my stomach was kind of clenched up, feeling nervous about how it would be received. Also, I am NOT a vet, and I am NOT a great DBing example, but this is a hard thing I knew I needed to say, and I needed to stand firmly by it. NTX_Dad called it "sacking up" and I like that! (Check my signature)
A very long story short - my W said she wanted to try to work on R a week ago. This past Friday, she hugged me, kissed me, begged me to stay longer, etc. Yesterday, I went to surprise her to see if she and my step-kids wanted to go to breakfast, and she slammed the door in my face, threatened me with the restraining order, and pretended to call the police to get me to leave. I found out the OM she'd had an EA with was there.
Here's what I said to her as a boundary:
1. Our families will have zero "in-person" interaction while a restraining order is in place. It was ridiculous behavior, and I won't live in fear of it. I will communicate only with email for important stuff, and perhaps phone for something quick, but I will follow it up with a confirmation email, and I won't act on it until she confirms the email so I have it in writing.
2. I will not be in a relationship where another man is involved in any way. Period. Even if the EA was ended, and they're just really good friends, she's going to have to sacrifice that relationship to be with me. It's the one thing I will not negotiate.
Please note, I was VERY careful not to discuss any control of her actions, only mine. I also pointed out specific behavior that was unacceptable and why.
Again, I am not the greatest example. But even though my W is actually saying positive things about our R, she obviously thinks she can get away with making poor choices, and treating me in disrespectful ways, so I made hard choices and said hard things.
If we're going to talk about LL in the 3rd person, I think it's easier and more comfortable for him not to be "in charge". If W makes the decisions and sets the tone for what will be done and what will not be done, he can follow. He's not responsible for making bad decisions, or enforcing unpopular choices. It's just easier not to be primarily responsible.
I think he's perhaps more afraid of stepping up and being in charge than he is of W, and I think that's what drives W nuts.
Perhaps, but it's really an exercise for LL to think through and answer. If YOU answer
for him it just facilitates and enables more of the same behavior you are describing, which he acknowledges is contributing to his marital problems and is something he claims to want to correct/improve upon.
-PM
There is a book called N.U.T.S get it and read it. It was an eye opener for men to stand up for themselves and be real men.
I think LL lives in fear that his W will react negatively to his actions and her reactions will end his chance for a R, and the fear drives him to not act at all.
when in fact it is the non-action that will end his chance for a R.
Thank you all for your posts and ideas. I feel a bit overwhelmed with all this exhortation just now - need to keep the plan somewhat simple, if possible.
Main points: determine and maintain boundaries, and become who I want to be.
I am doing some of the NUTS stuff, but not consistently: e.g. I still don't play my instrument at home because W criticized this before, but I do go out now, with friends, to play, definitely something new. I am going to lunch tomorrow to meet a new possible guy friend, without asking, taking the car to get there, but when I said this weekend that I was going to get it washed, W pointed out that it was not so dirty and so this was environmentally and financially wasteful (we try to be environmentally conscious), and I was dissuaded.
I have problems with the idea of leading. What important things do you all decide/lead for your families? Isn't 'leading' really more of a negotiation or persuading rather than a commanding the other(s)?
It seems illusory to lead my W.
I will spend 3+ weeks in the States again, including Thanksgiving at BIL's. There is more friendliness at MIL's than there is here, though time spent with d15 is infinitely precious.
I am booking flights for son and I to spend a week together after Christmas, without the women. We had fun, just the two of us, last year, without complications.
Luke
I am doing some of the NUTS stuff, but not consistently
Luke,
I just fell on this as I recall having read somewhere that consistency could be quite important.
I don't believe further words are necessary!
Great about you and son!!!
F
I have problems with the idea of leading. What important things do you all decide/lead for your families? Isn't 'leading' really more of a negotiation or persuading rather than a commanding the other(s)?
The most fundamental concept of leadership isn't the ability to command, it's the ability to be someone others would want to follow.
There aren't any lists of what areas you should lead and other areas where it's okay NOT to lead for you to follow. That isn't leading - that's following...a LIST!
You can't lead others if you can't lead yourself, so focus on leading
yourself well first. Your family needs you to be the man, Luke. If you want a list, here's a short one:
- Act honorably.
- Always do the right thing.
- Stand firm in your convictions.
- Be courageous.
- Be strong.
- Do everything out of love.
- Be patient, gentle, kind, and respectful.
If you do
those^ things on a consistent basis, if that's the kind of man you are, you may not realize you're leading, but if you turn around you will see people following you.
Write that list down, or type it out and print it off. Keep it in your wallet. Look at it. Memorize it. When you decide something, when you are confronted and need to act, are you adhering to your list? Hold yourself accountable to it.
Two things stuck out to me:
1) " I am going to lunch tomorrow to meet a new possible guy friend, without asking" - Is she your wife or is she your mom and you're a little kid again?
2) "...when I said this weekend that I was going to get [the car] washed, W pointed out that it was not so dirty and so this was environmentally and financially wasteful (we try to be environmentally conscious), and I was dissuaded." - Don't be. If you want to wash the car, wash the car.
What you need is a whole lot less talk, and a whole lot more action. Be the man I described above, and do it quietly.
Quiet confidence. Strength.
-PM
"I still don't play my instrument at home because W criticized this before,"
So start playing at home and get your kids involved if you can.
"W pointed out that it was not so dirty and so this was environmentally and financially wasteful (we try to be environmentally conscious), and I was dissuaded."
After she said that, you should have told her 'noted' and then wash the car anyway.
Why are you still living in fear of her? That's why she's still leaving.
"Isn't 'leading' really more of a negotiation or persuading rather than a commanding the other(s)?"
No it's a take charge attitude where you know what actions to take and when to take them. You negotiate when you need to and you make plans on your own when needed. It's making A decision and not let others make the decision for you. Which is what you allow your W to do time and time and time and time and time again.
No offense, but your W seems like a total b*tch.
"W pointed out that it was not so dirty and so this was environmentally and financially wasteful (we try to be environmentally conscious), and I was dissuaded."
she gave you the opportunity to show her you could make a decision on your own, and to do it against her (not very strong) objections, and you backed down.
I had lunch yesterday, without asking for permission, and without announcing that I was going, with a guy who was interested in the lunch club. It was just one person, sure, but that is a start, and I hope for > 1 when I am back in December.
In the Questions and Complaints department:
for the guys here: what is reasonable to expect from life? How often do friends check on you or say hello? I feel lonely a lot - are we simply supposed to grin and bear it? Do we just live from hope to hope, looking forward to the next planned amusement, and ignoring the rest? Right now it isn't much fun.
Stopping my fear of my W - is it just a rational thing, telling myself that she is not an ex-commando, that her weapons are just (admittedly painful) words, at worst?
Tonight is playing music with guy friends.
I hear via d15 that we are having a Russian-themed Christmas party. We had neighbors over last night for enchiladas. Luke
"for the guys here: what is reasonable to expect from life?"
Everyone is different, therefore everyone's answers will be different and will not have anything to do with yours. Some expect success in business, some expect to have a great family life, etc. The question is...what do YOU expect?
"How often do friends check on you or say hello?"
Again, this is an open-ended question. To have friends means that you can call them up if you feel like it and vice versa. Some closer friends may go out with you often and others not so much.
"I feel lonely a lot - are we simply supposed to grin and bear it?"
I'm glad you're feeling this way. Too long have you lived a lonely life and didn't see it as such. This may be your turning point.
"Do we just live from hope to hope, looking forward to the next planned amusement, and ignoring the rest? Right now it isn't much fun."
You're way over-analyzing things again. Bottom line is that you do what makes you happy. I think you've been so "proper" for so long that you forgot what that's like. Here's a suggestion. Go to a playground where children are playing. Watch their faces. They have no expectations or worries about whether someone is going to judge them. They just ... be. They play with whomever and whatever is around them and if there is nothing around, they create things from their imagination. You've forgotten how to "play".
"Stopping my fear of my W - is it just a rational thing, telling myself that she is not an ex-commando, that her weapons are just (admittedly painful) words, at worst?"
It's the FEAR that's irrational. YOU give her power. YOU feel the creature. Imagine if a crazy stranger on a street corner talked to you the way she did. Would you give that person any credence? Would their words hurt you? Of course not. Your W's words don't hurt you. YOU do by giving those words power. You can just as easily take that power away.
When she spews or says something ridiculous, just chuckle shake your head and walk away. See her as the crazy stranger. Visualize that. Understand that you are more powerful than she is.
Bond - thanks - that is one of the kindest things you've written.
PM - thanks also - the only unclear thing in your list is doing what is right - but I need to think more about that.
Quiet weekend - work Saturday, as a big meeting is coming up at work, and student interviews on Sunday, nice to meet enthusiastic, smart kids. Off to the US again tomorrow, gone till early December.
Luke
As you live out your day and face whatever decisions you will face, from of miniscule importance to enormous importance, ask yourself these questions:
"What kind of example am I setting for my children?"
"If they were here watching me, what would I/should I do?"
We'd all be better people if we lived our lives the way we tell our kids to live theirs. Remembering that is a GREAT and SIMPLE test for yourself.
-PM
Thanks, PM, that is a very good way to think about it.
Luke
"So no longer validate... not sure I agree, as it seems very unDBing..."
No your problem is that you continue to validate her and it's been years that you've been in this sitch. Stick to what you said before and don't keep explaining your actions.
"If W claims I have learned something cultural from her, I can point out that I was interested in the humanities before her and didn't need her to be interested in poetry, art history, etc. "
Why do you keep having to have these long drawn out explanations? If she says something like that, laugh at her and say something like "yeah right". And then walk away as if you had some private joke at her expense. Don't feed the fire. Extinguish it right off the bat. You don't need to constantly explain things.
I love this post by Bond.\
If she tosses REALLY low blows at you, then let yourself feel sad but REACH OUT to the folks want to end you
Your thread is really eye opening to me. I think I need to also unlearn conflict avoidance. I tip-toed around DHs moods all our marriage. And I taught my kids to do the same. One of my 180s is to be more direct. To not expect him to get annoyed, angry, snappy when I do things and just do them. He said that all I do is nag, which I found hard to believe because all I thought I did with him was avoid nagging (although I guess if he overheard me talking with the kids I can see what he was saying). But I think instead things came out kind of passive aggressive--and my body language might have spoke volumes. I am still trying to figure out how to talk to him about household things in a productive way. Once my thread passes through moderation (we are now on day five of waiting for it to post) I will have to reflect on this more.
Man that last post of mine did NOT get sent right. Guess I pushed delete where I thought I had highlighted.
ANYWAY
Luke, don't forget what you learned at EE and here, and don't forget you've been here nine years.
To HER, not much you are doing is radically new and it sure has not been done with the confidence that makes it real.
Hence your multiple questions about doing the wrong/right thing, and the endless second guessing.
Let's go with what you KNOW.
You KNOW your wife has not been wanted intimacy in 9 years and
you KNOW you two never discussed why.
You KNOW she has repeatedly said (and now appears to have acted in pursuit of,) Ending the marriage.
I think When someone SAYS they want out and has no intimacy for years, and then moves to end things formally, in accordance with they said they wanted to do, I think they want out.
Certainly -
Those are all big fat red flags.
And they've been waving for years. I don't know if she realizes the financial or legal consequences of a divorce but that is NOT YOUR PROBLEM.
Also, since it has been so very long, (like a personal record around here to tell you the truth)
then To HER, she may think "why doesn't he get it by now? I want out!"...She probably feels she has been clear and consistent.
to YOU, it's as if you are willing to believe all will be well, when and if she's not actively being negative to you for a few days.
But to the casual observer, all those days are, is a lull in the combat.
It's NOT peace or happiness. OR intimacy.
Your d may be lead to an unfortunate view of men and marriage if you let all this continue.
FTR I am NOT very interested in what your w thinks of what you are doing. I doubt many of us are.
I am somewhat concerned about your d,
and I am very concerned and primarily concerned with how
YOU FEEL and What YOU are doing to get some companionship in your lonely "family life".
Please read Sandi's post to you again. NOT to get your wife "back" but to show your d something. As in, the real you.
I say that b/c nine years is a long time to have been like this and it's basically all your d knows of you. Think about that.
But she's young and you CAN change the dynamic of your R with her.
and BTW
If I had gotten that text about "NO sauces", I'd have assumed there was a bit of teasing going on (in part as a diffuser) & I'd have probably said "Yes Ma'am. Anything else, Master?"
The point then is made without belaboring it. Of course, IF pressed, then say,
"I'll get what I want for MY home. I'm your father, not your dog. Don't talk to me like that."
I would not worry about being positive and negative and positive again. That sounds like the proverbial "compliment sandwich" with the meaningful part NOT in the bread. People usually see through that.
Luke, we've met. You were a pleasant suprise to me b/c you are warm and very natural in person.
Something about how you interact with your wife is so dysfunctional, it's like you forgot b/c I guess you are so used to it.
NINE YEARS is a long time to be so lonely.
And the R I see being risked is NOT your w wanting out (that is old news) but your d and how she is viewing you.
I say Go on the trips with your son, & go ahead and invite your d along, AND MAYBE a friend of hers too. So she's not choosing between you and wife, but between her brother, dad and friend trip, versus staying alone with her mom
b/c her mom is... mad at you? Why? and....is that really what your wife wants too? I mean, that's just mean and weird of her.
IF your wife wants a private life with some OM, why would she always want D around? To "win"? Good grief. I get that your w feels no sparks but is she actually angry at you for something specific? What does she complain about with you?
Back to the trips...
Don't bother asking w to go, but if you do, ask her with the obvious belief that it matters NOT one whit if she says no. You just needed to know.
Remember what a great catch you are and how you CAN feel around women and how THEY can feel around you.
Your wife is not the typical one. I wish you'd seen this years ago.
Am I saying to give up?
I am saying to get ahold of your own life and stop placing your happiness or ability to be with anyone in life, including your own family -
in your wife's hands.
ALSO
I would NOT stop staying with MIL once the news comes out. Who says you have to do that? Why? She's still the grandmother of your children and you'll always have a bond.
I still go on trips with my former SIL even though my brother left her. I thought my brother was a fool at the time, and she and I were close. At the time, my brother said "glad you are close...stay that way" but it probably bugs him. NOT MY PROBLEM
just b/c he left his marriage of 17 years, does not mean all her R's with our family also ended...why should you stop being close to her b/c her d is not close to (OR to her)?
Seems to me you & MIL have a lot in common. I see nothing disloyal or weird about it.
Ask around maybe, b/c if someone thinks a sexual R is happening between you and your mil, they are going where I'd not have gone in my head.
You do NOT have to magnify the loss of other relationships b/c your wife wants to end the marriage. You do NOT have to start cutting other people out of your life.
LUKE, consider this...
What is ending is not really a true m, is it really? I mean, isn't what's ending here, more like the facade of a marriage?
Hopes are being dashed, I realize. And that is painful, I know. I don't want to minimize that. I just want you to be realistic about expectations of your situation, and prepare to move on SOON and to be happy anyhow.
For you to be working on DBing this many years with no real results, means whatever you have done before did NOT work well enough.
I would not repeat that old behavior. It did NOT work well for you or the m. or the r you have with your d.
But it's NOT too late for you to have a decent R with your d.
You do have to be her dad, (a father figure), and that means you guide and you lead.
MLC - wow, thanks for your long post. Yes, all my W's actions point to her wanting out, and I think it is going to happen. Perhaps we could meet again - I would like that.
I am Stateside again, going to EE next week (inside team), and then working in the usual location for a few more weeks, having Thanksgiving with MIL and BIL and BIL's W's parent also.
Has anyone here done the bettermen coaching or group?
Later - I hear MIL and her boyfriend are awake - Luke
So the work madness of the last week is finished, and the next weeks until Thanksgiving should be calmer, plus EE is happening again, and I am going to help out!
I need to figure how to be a good dad to my d15, especially when I am often so far away. I feel so empty sometimes, without much to give her beyond my good wishes and love (and of course material stuff), and this 'I love you so much but have nothing to give you' rips me apart. Perhaps I could tell her about EE, but this seems like it sets her between my W and myself, which doesn't seem fair to her, plus isn't telling her about my issues unfairly imposing on her?
The NYT column by Charles Blow today pointed out that we have to let go of our kids too, so making getting friends and maybe a new W even more important. Life isn't easy, I guess. Luke
So the work madness of the last week is finished, and the next weeks until Thanksgiving should be calmer, plus EE is happening again, and I am going to help out!
This will be a great experience for you in several ways. For one thing, you'll be GIVING BACK to someone and that will help you in your r with d.
Plus it's a refresher course/booster for YOU, imo.
At team meetings, share your wishes for a better R with d.
I need to figure how to be a good dad to my d15, especially when I am often so far away.
I know this is THE biggest issue for you. Makes sense. So let's think about it.
Time when you are there at/near, spent with her is something you can work on. I mean, aren't you sometimes able to work from home? That sounds like a real opportunity for keeping her company. What things did you two used to do, before your w seemed threatened? Can you renew some?
Now, I worry a bit that you'll get into your head and worry and fear
what your wife might say or do.
But see, I don't care what she does or says b/c it's NOT relevant to YOUR fathering.
(Can you honestly imagine your w askign YOU for advice or consent to HER spending time with your d?)
However, assuming YOU DO worry about it, let's review some words you might say to your w if needed.
Obviously only if they feel authentic to you.
You can reassure your w that "this isn't a competition" which she probably needs to hear. She may laugh that off but it bears saying and possibly repeating.
Plus it's not as if you could "Steal" your d away from her anyhow, and nor would you want to. You're not that type of man, thank God.
If she says more critical or crazy or rude things, STOP HER cold.
Say something like "Stop talking to me that way. I'm her father and it's about time I stop stop being undermined by someone who SHOULD be supporting our d having a relationship with BOTH parents".
(Luke, you MUST NOT tolerate anymore disrespect from your w OR d, but you can handle them differently.)
and or try telling your wife
"We BOTH need to parent our children & I'm not going to quit OR be shoved aside or undermined....anymore"
AND OR
"I do NOT undermine your parenting. Do not undermine mine. It's unfair to me AND it's unfair to our d."
"WHY do you insist on dividing this family? Don't you see how destructive it is to HER, not to mention me? It's VERY unfair and very unkind of YOU."
Luke, you DO have to say things to your wife. She's a lousy mind reader when it comes to you. And she is NOT fair or kind to you. She's been divisive as heck to your relationships with your children as she moves to separate and abandon you. SHE can do that with the marital r if she insists.
But not to you as a father. Only a fool would be blind to the damage this causes her children.
She cannot put her anger or frustration with her own life (or with you) ahead of the benefits and love You have for your children.
Besides, you have to say things b/c your silence has been interpreted as apathy or consent, for nearly a decade.
Is that what YOU want to "say" to your daughter? It's all she has seen for the bulk of her "waking" life...
isn't it time for your d to KNOW how you feel and not have to guess or assume or view you thru her mother's eyes?
When you two do talk with your d, try asking open ended questions. instead of "do you have homework?" You ask "What homework assignment do you have that's most/least interesting? Why?"
AND ask follow up if it makes sense. If you get a one word answer, follow up. Maybe say "oh, how so?" You are also allowed to tell her stories or observations. You have seen some cool places Luke. You've done some interesting things. It's GOOD to talk about them.
Get to know your d and let her get to know you. Just takes time AND PATIENCE.
Do not measure it on a weekly basis. MAYBE a monthly basis but do not take the temperature too often...
Remember her friend's names. LISTEN when she speaks of them. (my h is not great with names of any kind, except long Latin medical phrases...but it drives my kids nuts. For them it's a symbol of disinterest, which is sad.
I know you want some quality time with her. But it may have to start with some more quantity, upon which you can build. That may mean having her invite a friend along.
Often, friends feel like buffers to discomfort. So, IF she seems uncomfortable doing something at first, let her bring someone with her.
Also can you schedule (but not necessarily tell her so) a small task or routine thing with her that you two do alone, such as the grocery shopping, her purchases of some regularly needed item? Or check out transportation. Driving her somewhere (or taking the train with her?) is a common opportunity for meaningful communications.
Seriously, when I pick up my d16, she shares more with me than other times. Maybe the fact neither of us are making eye contact (which is usually needed) actually makes it easier or feels like less pressure, and she shares more with me...
I do know the few bombs she has dropped on me were mostly shared in the car.
Is there a way for you to insert yourself into your d's life subtly? Like being the one who "gets the music scores" or "picks up the X" and bring your d along. If it feels awkward, and it might at first, then start with small short chores or errands.
And then of course, the not so subtle ways. Like a "dinner with dad".
Do NOT ASK your w about it or for permission.
Just suggest it one night to your d. Let your d choose WHICH night, NOT whether she'll go.
Why even involve your w if not needed? And You don't have to tell anyone you PLAN on making it a regular thing, just do it.
You're her father. Not a boy asking her or your w for a favor.
And you're a good normal warm man with interpersonal skills that are JUST FINE.
I feel so empty sometimes, without much to give her beyond my good wishes and love (and of course material stuff), and this 'I love you so much but have nothing to give you' rips me apart.
LUKE
What do you think fathers give? Guidance, time and support and love. You can give these things. You want to and you are fully capable of it.
Time to own that.
Perhaps I could tell her about EE, but this seems like it sets her between my W and myself, which doesn't seem fair to her, plus isn't telling her about my issues unfairly imposing on her?
You are ALLOWED to discuss EE. NOT your "issues" but the workshop itself.
You can share issues NOT related to your m. Surely you have some (like with your dad? or work or anything OTHER than your w?)
If so, Why would it harm anything or anyone?
Does your wife mock it EE? And if so, do You think staying silent makes that better? You think NOT talking about EE somehow helps your cause?
It does not. Stop letting fears keep you silent. you are NOT well served by that.
You SEEM to think "no conflict for THIS minute" is better than "long term distance and feeling empty".
Re-examine that^^.
The NYT column by Charles Blow today pointed out that we have to let go of our kids too, so making getting friends and maybe a new W even more important. Life isn't easy, I guess. Luke
No one said life is easy. Scott Peck says it up front. "Life is difficult".
But when we learn to see that the "work" we do in our life IS how we live it and learn to take more joy in it
more joy in our connections with others, we live well. We live more fully.
And God YES your d would benefit by seeing you happy and showing love for someone who returns it.
What is she learning by your behavior now?
I don't see what you have to lose.
I say Go for it Luke.
A short note - thanks MLC for your long reply - will get back when there is more time -
W sent the following email regarding getting tickets for our son19 to return home over Christmas:
Hi,
Did the flight get worked out—it got left very late as he never knew his exam schedule? I forgot that MIL gave the kids two little packages. Don't bother her with the etsy things. Hope the plane stuff wasn't a terrible hassle.
which annoys me for two reasons. W doesn't call me by name (why?) and I didn't need to be reminded about the tickets. She does hope that the plane stuff was not too burdensome, at least.
It seems reasonable to push back on the not reminding front (I am an adult...) but how about the name? Like this, maybe:
Hi (W name),
I seem to be nameless in your mails... the ticket is bought... did not need to be reminded about it after your first note.
Luke
Is this a reasonable, somewhat annoyed, reply?
I'd completely ignore it, if it was me.
Who cares if she calls you by name, and why would it matter? If the ticket is bought, then who cares what she thinks about it?
Hi (W name),
I seem to be nameless in your mails... the ticket is bought... did not need to be reminded about it after your first note.
Luke
Luke, this comes across as pissy.
why not just try:
"Hi
Yes, thanks for asking, I took care of the tickets, no problems.
Luke."
your W is asking you to be strong, so dont let some little insignificant detail like using your name shake you up.
i believe you can judge a person's strength by what it takes to knock them down.
what i mean by this is a weak person will get knocked down by a small amount of force.
but a strong person will barely notice this same small amount of force.
so dont let your W see you get knocked down by this small reminder email.
my x sends me reminder txts all the time, i think it makes her feel in control. sometimes its about things i have already covered and its a bit annoying. other times it actually was something i would have forgotten and i'm happy she did it.
Luke,
When I feel annoyance bubbling up when I think people are "reminding me", I use this to defuse my emotions and the communication with the other individual by using this line:
"Thanks for the kind reminder."
I agree with Ken that your draft response comes across as pissy.
I agree with the others. What your W texted wasn't bad at all. In fact, in my case, when my W STARTED to name me in our texts, I didn't like it because it sounded like the intimacy of us just knowing it was each other was gone.
Your overall response was a passive aggressive.
I think you are so used to your W being mean to you that even when she's actually civil, your defenses automatically go up.
A simple "will do" and "thank you" will be fine in these cases.
Hi folks - thanks for your thoughts - a civil return note was sent - off to EE tomorrow - Luke
Luke
now that you have returned to EE's workshop, do you see how unhelpful your first reaction would have been?
Good...so, now what's your plan for the holiday? Have you offered your d the chance to come WITH a friend? That way she's not choosing between parents,
but between having fun with her dad/brother and friend, AND Not doing so. If I were your w, I'd want my d to go... Then again, I myself would want to go so it's hard to figure out what your w wants, except out...
YOU sound great post workshop. Do NOT backslide or believe your w's views of you are based on 'real data". What you show her is a part of you that you CAN change.
Too many people have met you in real life, and all found you warm and personable. So no more lonely man years, "INSIDE" your own family!
When I read how you react to your w, I realize it's not healthy for YOU to be there. I mean, truly, I don't get it. Is she a huge strong abusive woman? What is it that makes you give her all your power?
What's it going to take for you to take it all back?
Well I know what's healthy/happy, and what's NOT.
When I hear of you around your w, I see reactions and proposals that are NOT happy or healthy.
So...there's that.
Hola MLC,
Thanks for your long post -
I finally have a bit of time - work and lots of piddling details that need doing have been tying me up.
My W is - and this is just description, not defense or whatever - tough, proud of it, perfectionist, eats fish eyeballs, often impatient, assertive, outspoken, a fast runner, 'a wild beauty' (my cousin said this), rejecting of friends she no longer considers relevant or current, a steel trap mind, dubious of monogamy, etc.
Yes, EE made me see myself better - I really do like people (especially the EE kind!) and want to be around them - thank you Bond -
My M is not healthy and I have no problem with a D now. Lots of women to meet, relationships to be built, much fun to be had: a better life awaits.
Luke
Hi sandi2,
Thanks for asking. I got home from the US two days ago, having spent a nice Thanksgiving with BIL, MIL, W's cousins and their families. BIL's two boys were fun to play with, and I had good conversations with BIL's wife and her mother.
Being back here makes what I don't like about it clear. Working alone all day and then regularly into the evening is no fun. I saw d15 for only 10 minutes yesterday. She and my still-W now share her bedroom upstairs, so at least we are on the same floor at night (in the States I don't really care about having people near, as I am alone, but here, where my family is nearby, it is nice to be on the same floor).
EE was a very positive experience, which I can imagine doing again. I felt like I could contribute, we on the support staff worked together on a common goal, and I got to know more people, which I really appreciated. What a wonderful thing it is to be able to give emotionally, especially for someone in a classically dry profession like mine!
W did the usual not saying hello when she came home, ignoring me, until I called everyone to dinner. She avoided my gaze during the meal, only softening a bit afterwards, as I explained and gave her the various kid stocking stuffers I had found in the States. She asked no questions about my time in the US or the flight, as if these did not exist. Bottom line - she can go jump in a lake (and there is one nearby).
So, it looks like the D is on track, but that is probably for the best. It sure would be nice to have a partner that I can share with again...
I have a beard now btw, as suggested a while ago. It was fun to get this trimmed at a place specializing in cool haircuts, including the 'slick pomp'. Perhaps a Napolean III Imperial is on the cards...
W is slated to get a book about Virginia Woolf's garden (she adores VW and our garden here) for Christmas, perhaps too nice a present. It is ot expensive, but certainly something she will like. My s, soon 20, gets a trip with Dad to Sicily. Only d15 still lacks a big gift, something that bears working on.
Luke
Oh, my birthday is this week. We'll see if W can be nice...
Luke
Thanks, sandi2.
My W now longer uses my name or even nickname, with just short phrases on the (small) present tags, and skipping over saying it during the singing of Happy Birthday. She also doesn't look at me much. Is this shame on her part? It is weird to be nameless.
This Saturday is the 50th birthday party of a (former CEO) friend of ours, who W admires. I believe W of this friend is a confidant of my W - it will be interesting to experience the interaction with her.
Luke
[quote]it is weird to be nameless.]
Acting like you only have a name if she gives it to you is emblematic of how much you have been handing over all of your power and self esteem to her all these years. I thought you were doing a lot better than that lately. Please try rephrasing that last sentence and see what you can come up with on your own, because it is too sad to let you get away with making that statement.
Happy birthday!!! I hope you make it a great year in your life! Have some fun!
Hi adinva,
I - of course - have a name, with a very nice root meaning, imo. Various EE folks commented on my behavior matching this meaning, in fact, and I am very happy with it.
To rephrase, should I shouldn't care if W no longer calls me by name? Let it wash off, it being her problem?
Context: a distant foreign aunt of mine, who has/knock on wood had brain cancer, called to wish me happy birthday. I was happy to hear from her and that she is doing okay, given that the last time I saw her was in the cancer ward. She and W used to be good friends, but W has not communicated with her any more. Aunt said it would be nice if W got in touch again.
Luke
My W now longer uses my name or even nickname, with just short phrases on the (small) present tags, and skipping over saying it during the singing of Happy Birthday. She also doesn't look at me much. Is this shame on her part?
If you are asking if she feels shame and that's why she refuses to acknowledge your name or look at you, then NO, it's not shame. I believe you have asked that question in the past. The word here is not shame. It is
disdain.
Whew, talk about a change of perspective. I'll need to chew on that for a while.
Luke
What could be a response to disdain? She herself has said that some people see her as arrogant, so I think your interpretation of her actions is correct. Contempt is part of her emotional vocabulary and arsenal.
Luke
If someone doesn't think you're worthy of being named, how would you respond to that?
What would EE tell you?
Luke,
Reread this thread from start to finish ASAP. Then YOU tell ME why you should give a flying rats fart if your W doesn't call you by your name.
If you really want to change your life, you need to quit "chewing on things for a while" and get to changing. Change is a verb. It requires action on your part. You have to actually do it.
For crying out loud, Luke. You've got so many people here trying to help you. When are you going to help yourself?
-PM
Yes Luke, it is not a surprise that she's showing you disdain. She has disrespected and disdained and verbally abused you since you got here and long before that, if not for the entire course of your relationship. She has brought you so low that you can say "it's weird to be nameless" instead of "it's weird that an adult would act in such a ridiculous way" or "it's weird that I still want to live with someone who is so rude" or all the other things I was thinking about her refusal to say your name during happy birthday song.
She is being over the top aggressive and disdainful, not to mention absurdly childish. Why has she chosen to abuse you for so long instead of just getting the divorce she has claimed to want?
I believe she actually gets something positive out of treating you like crap beneath her shoe. And she has damaged you to no end.
EE has helped you a lot, I can see that. I wish you could wipe the slate clean, see her with clear eyes, and laugh confidently when she acts ridiculous instead of going off to ponder why.
Luke, you surely have a great name, and you're interesting and fun and personable. Unshackle yourself from her and you will probably enjoy a life you never knew you could have.
PM - I feel compelled to respond, since it sounds to me like you feel I have done nothing. I have certainly changed my activities, though mostly in the US, where I go to various meetups, and that is fun. I've started a meetup here, but with little success, and so instead occasionally play music with two friends. I realize that my working alone all day here is not good for me, but don't see how to alter that without changing jobs (and so probably losing income). Being at work in the States is actually enjoyable, as other people are around, and my boss is great. Here it is isolating.
I've changed therapists and see two different ones.
At EE I am open about myself, but not with other non-EEers, not yet. I still only occasionally get personal emails or calls, which stinks. No one here in Sweden knows I went to EE - perhaps that should change.
I interview applicants to the college I went to, which is fun, and met a bunch of people at an alumni meeting. I rode a bike to and across the Golden Gate bridge during Thanksgiving, an excellent experience, played with my nephews, and had good walks/talks with my BIL's wife and her mom.
So, I am having a bit more fun, have met new people, but still don't have the friends here that I would like (okay, something to work on).
I would be grateful for any suggestions on what more to do/change.
--------------------------
Adinva - thanks for your sympathetic reply. She says she stayed on for the kids' sakes. She resents my multi-country job. I make 80% of the money in the family. There is no alimony in Sweden. Come early March an instantaneous D is just two signatures and 30$ away.
EE is good, complex, real, fun, caring people, and I am so very grateful to have found it and them. If only Philadelphia weren't thousands of miles from where I live - .
Luke
File for divorce and move forward with your life without your W. Do it tomorrow morning.
There is nothing you can lose in a D that would be worse than what you are losing in your M.
Find someone new.
PM - I feel compelled to respond, since it sounds to me like you feel I have done nothing. I have certainly changed my activities, though mostly in the US, where I go to various meetups, and that is fun. I've started a meetup here, but with little success, and so instead occasionally play music with two friends. I realize that my working alone all day here is not good for me, but don't see how to alter that without changing jobs (and so probably losing income). Being at work in the States is actually enjoyable, as other people are around, and my boss is great. Here it is isolating.
I've changed therapists and see two different ones.
At EE I am open about myself, but not with other non-EEers, not yet. I still only occasionally get personal emails or calls, which stinks. No one here in Sweden knows I went to EE - perhaps that should change.
I interview applicants to the college I went to, which is fun, and met a bunch of people at an alumni meeting. I rode a bike to and across the Golden Gate bridge during Thanksgiving, an excellent experience, played with my nephews, and had good walks/talks with my BIL's wife and her mom.
So, I am having a bit more fun, have met new people, but still don't have the friends here that I would like (okay, something to work on).
I would be grateful for any suggestions on what more to do/change.
There's a giant elephant in the room which you are ignoring. This elephant is taking giant dumps (as elephants do), and your "doing something" is to make sure the coffee table is dusted and the magazines are properly put away in the magazine rack...that everyone who has a drink is using coasters. You're making sure there's plenty of wood on the fire, the room temperature is comfortable, and that there's plenty of food to eat.
You're ignoring the elephant in the room.
And I'm sure you can figure out what the elephant is, but just in case, the elephant is your W and how you allow her to treat you.
Yes, how you ALLOW her to treat you.This isn't "conflict avoidance" anymore, Luke, it's "how to avoid being a man around your W and setting a positive example for your children."
I don't mean to take shots at you, but it's been pointed out many times that
your kids are watching you avoid the elephant in the room too. And that's the real tragedy here. You aren't just affecting you, you're affecting them too.
And I sit here flabbergasted that this simple truth doesn't seem to motivate you.
I am sorry it sounds to you as though I feel you have done nothing, so allow me be more specific.
I feel you have done nothing to address the elephant in the room.
You have done other things, things that you can look at and proudly say, "I did that!", but you haven't addressed your problem.
You're asking for suggestions? Did you even reread this thread like I suggested? There is extremely specific advice on
precisely what to do so that you can address the elephant in your room.
-PM
I'll just put in my two cents.
Luke, I believe you've changed quite a bit from when you first started. You've gained sentience and awareness when before you were very emotionally removed. Now that you've become self-aware from your robotic state, you see your W's actions with much resentment and disdain.
You both seem to be feeding it to each other. Remember, she wanted you to step up and be a MAN. A MAN doesn't care what others think of their actions or is even bothered by the actions of others because he believes in his heart that his actions are the right ones.
A small part of you still seems to be forcing yourself into certain actions as responses to how your W is treating you. Forget about her and start just making YOURSELF happy. The way she treats you shouldn't even bother you or at the very least, start standing up for yourself. You still haven't developed the stones to stand up to her.
When you feel she is treating you rudely, you need to just laugh it off and say she's crazy. Start standing up for yourself.
Why haven't you done that yet? It's not like it'll make things worse. You have nothing to lose by becoming more of a man.
My W now longer uses my name or even nickname, with just short phrases on the (small) present tags, and skipping over saying it during the singing of Happy Birthday. She also doesn't look at me much. Is this shame on her part?
If you are asking if she feels shame and that's why she refuses to acknowledge your name or look at you, then NO, it's not shame. I believe you have asked that question in the past. The word here is not shame. It is
disdain.
I would have said " contempt" but disdain works, and it's definitely NOT shame. Your w is not, in her mind, married to you and has not been married to you for years. She has nothing to feel shame about except the few times her cruel rude behavior gets too overt and you call her on it...and it's rare that you call her on it. IN fact you see that your own d is emulating that behavior and it won't get better by itself "in time"...
it's NOT something that is going to get better or improve by you looking the other way.
What concerns me is that you have a pattern of doing that, e.g., looking the other way when your w is overtly rude to you and you don't want to face it OR seeing "warm rapprochment & possible reconciliation" when all that has happened is basic courtesy, or the absence of a negative behavior from her... you start wondering what new gesture on your end might produce...what?
Luke, hasn't this been going on for the past decade? You get mistreated and wonder if it's something else. Instead of bad behavior on her end, you question if she feels shame, which credits her beyond belief to me. It's almost as if you want to see hope where all I see is contempt or disdain.
You came here 9 or 10 years ago after your w had taken over the master bedroom and refused to sleep with you. She gave you NO explanation You asked none of her...in all those years...
Luke, it seems clear to me that the whole "don't rock the boat" approach has not worked.
My guess is she is baffled that you don't understand that to her, the marriage is over. To her, you have known this for a decade and she sometimes has to treat you terribly to get thru to you, or at least that is how it reads to me at times.
Of all the problems in this scenario, my biggest beef with all this is how badly she treats you in front of your children and how you don't really do anything about it. You seem so concerned about conflict that you allow abuse to happen and I don't believe conflict is the enemy. NEVER resolving conflict is the problem.
Bad behavior being allowed and then repeating, is a lot worse than resolving a conflict. IN fact, marriages cannot and should not be judged by how much conflict they have; some marriages are challenged more.
but how you resolve the conflict THAT is the bellwether for how you're doing as a couple/person.
If you are so conflict avoidant that you'd choose abusive crappy behavior over a moment of awkwardness as you openly note her behavior and inform her that it "has to stop"....then your fear of conflict is just too high.
If anyone refused to use my name, I'd not answer until I was involved in a conversation or event. IOW, I'd insist that my name be used...
Otherwise she is just being rude to you. But Luke, Answering or acting as if someone has treated you well, when they have not, gives them a whole lot of power.
Why not simply tell her she has to address you if she expects a response?
I might even joke that she "must have forgotten" your name or that she's getting too old to remember, or offer her 3 names of her choosing among the following options: your actual name, a better name you always wanted, or "Master"....
What on earth do you have to lose? A part of you gets this, I know. That gives me so much hope.
But WHEN it comes to your w, you seem to think that what exists now is better than nothing.
I submit it's NOT better than nothing. But even if it were, your w is leaving and since that time is coming, perhaps that ought to motivate you to start preparing yourself. How are you going to lead the life you want and deserve, when your w is out of the house?
How will you improve your r with your d? (You rarely see her as it is. I bet once you have visitation you might see her more often and not with someone like your w, mistreating you in your d's presence).
Can you buy your w out of the house? Are you interested in that?
Luke, spend a few minutes on this, please.
Tell me what your ideal life in five years would be like,
with you happy, but without your w?What does that look like?
You need to envision it in DETAIL before you can make it a reality.
Am I telling you to give up?
No. I simply believe your course of action of GAL with the expectation that your w will NOT be part of it, is smart in two ways.
It means you'll be ready that much faster, for happiness, if she does as she says she will, and leaves.
AND on the off chance that she might be open to reconciling,- it would only be if she came to believe that marriage to you would be better/different than before...
That can ONLY come from you changing how you behave around her.
Sandi and I (Adinva, and others) are long time married women and we all seem to be seeing this the same way.
You're badly treated and you somehow don't see it, and or, you let it happen.
Why? You KNOW you deserve better...so, what will it take for you to see this?
And if you have seen it, that you deserve better and more, then what?
Can you do what
that takes? It's major conflict resolution.
Or do you want to stay in the boat and not rock it, while your w says it's sinking?
Down deep you know you can survive and thrive on your own. Start acting like you believe it. Let your d see that. Let your son see it and let them both see you enjoying your life regardless of how your w behaves.
WHen shes cold or nasty to you, it's HEALTHY and self respecting to call her on it. Then go have fun.
PM, Mr. Bond, MLC,
Thanks. I will focus on the future in this mail.
A happy life in 5 years would be: less pain and less loneliness, spending time with my kids without the shadow and disapproval of my W, a woman who does not hurt me or put me down, who fights fair (and ideally teaches me about fighting). A country per year trip, involving learning the language, culture, history, etc, with the kids. Friends. Hearing from friends more often, so that life is more than just metabolism. Playing music. Intellectual stimulation. Sex. Holding hands. Affection. Not sure what country I would live in. Perhaps a new job in a new field. Feeling comfortable at parties. More assertiveness.
Not sure I can be more detailed - any suggestions? Questions?
Luke
A few more: being more sure of myself. Having a fashion sense (though I philosophically disagree with this). Doing a more well rounded exercise routine. Not feeling left out or odd or like the broken toy. More social skills.
Luke
More ideas: be more systematic about a new partner. My still-W says I need a kind, gentle person, which rings true. Perhaps look for someone from my alma mater, which is known for its awkward introverts.
My biggest fear right now is regarding the trip I've booked for my son and I. W and d do not know. How will they react? When shall I tell them? Suppose they do not approve? Is it okay that he and I take this trip, taking him away from them during Christmas vacation?
Luke
You know, all this boils down to fear, fear of rejection, fear of being put down - again and again, fear of what my W will say, fear of fighting, fear of the next slice of negativity when I say or do something, fear of effing up my life, fear of being abandoned (the classic older man scenario, depressed and alone) etc etc.
So I avoid her (a perfect example of Gottman's negative cascade, this). We had to drive 4x to the same place this weekend, she and I, an hour each way, spent mostly silent.
How do you work on this fear? Every time I've tried to talk to her, I get put down.
My background is rational, factual, Teutonic. Why can't our interchanges be factual? I answer her put downs fairly, rationally, but it doesn't feel like enough: the "if you hit me, I'll hit you back (verbally!)", isn't there, but what stupid game is that? Why not be rational?
d is home today, and needed help with math. Our interchanges are much more give and take and good. I pointed out an unreasonable expectation on her part. She told me about a dream, with something important written in a purple sky, which she absolutely had to photograph, so she stopped the train. I really loved her in that moment.
Luke
You know, all this boils down to fear, fear of rejection, fear of being put down - again and again, fear of what my W will say, fear of fighting, fear of the next slice of negativity when I say or do something, fear of effing up my life, fear of being abandoned (the classic older man scenario, depressed and alone) etc etc.
So I avoid her (a perfect example of Gottman's negative cascade, this). We had to drive 4x to the same place this weekend, she and I, an hour each way, spent mostly silent.
How do you work on this fear? Every time I've tried to talk to her, I get put down.
My background is rational, factual, Teutonic. Why can't our interchanges be factual? I answer her put downs fairly, rationally, but it doesn't feel like enough: the "if you hit me, I'll hit you back (verbally!)", isn't there, but what stupid game is that? Why not be rational?
d is home today, and needed help with math. Our interchanges are much more give and take and good. I pointed out an unreasonable expectation on her part. She told me about a dream, with something important written in a purple sky, which she absolutely had to photograph, so she stopped the train. I really loved her in that moment.
Luke
A small step in the right direction every time until it gets easier and becomes natural.
How do you work on this fear?
Since you are analytical, you analyze what it is that you are afraid of, and then determine if those outcomes are worse than what you're currently living with.
I view you a bit like the prisoner who is so adapted to the routine of prison life that they fear having their freedom.
When I first started posting to you, I think I pointed out that you had nothing to lose. You are already in a position where your spouse humiliates you, emasculates you in front of your children, is mean to you, denies you of sex and even common courtesy. How is that situation going to get worse?
What do you have to fear that you're not already living with?
When I started posting to you, you were afraid that W would divorce you and you wouldn't be able to keep your house, but now that's going to happen too, so what do you have to lose *now*? Even less!
So what are the fears you have?
1) Being alone: You already are alone, but worse you're treated poorly. The pummeling your W gives your self esteem inhibits your ability to foster new friendships and erodes your relationship with your kids. Leaving your W will actually make you less alone, not more alone.
2) Being insulted and put down: You're already in this scenario, could it possibly get worse?
3) Being made to feel "less than": You're already there. Could it possibly get worse?
That which you fear has already come to pass, so what do you have to fear?
You claim to be rational, factual, and Teutonic, but do you see that your behavior in this regard is anything but that?
You are ruled be emotion and fear, not rationality. Use your rationality to your advantage and see this situation for what it is -- one that cannot possibly be worse.
Acc
How do you work on this fear? Every time I've tried to talk to her, I get put down.
What is left for you to fear from her? You have already died tens of thousands times over again out of fear and dread of how she may react to you. Aren't you putting yourself through the experience every time you feel that fear of her?
I'm sure it won't sound very civilized to you, but I've learned when I no longer respect a person b/c of how they treat me, then I stop giving them permission. This comes easily when I really dislike a person enough that I don't feel that I have to guard my words and/or behavior toward them. I've also learned that once I've allowed some person to put me down for an indefinite period of time, then it seems much harder to confront and put an end to it. I think perhaps this may be a little of
your problem. It's just so hard to imagine having to live with another human being who does that to you.
But again, we have been around and around this mountain with you. If you know you will divorce her, then why should it matter what she thinks of you? Why tolerate her, or worse...why fear her? So she gives you a stern look! Know how to stare back? Roll your eyes, laugh at her, shake your head and walk off, but don't just curl up in a ball and wish she would stop being so mean. She's acts mean to you simply b/c she
can.
She doesn't wish to discuss facts, philosophy, current events, or anything else with you. That is how much she has removed herself emotionally out of the MR and is trying to cut you out of her life altogether. For a woman who you think is so intelligent, she seems to be going to extremes to "show" you how much she wants out of the M. Even to the point of acting very ridiculous for a grown woman. And this is what you fear? Every time you feel afraid, stop and remember this is the
adult who would sing Happy Birthday but leave your name out of the song! It should make you either laugh or get angry, but never fear her.
Luke, I really believe if you face down the fear of her, those other areas of your life won't be near as lacking as you may see them now. You have allowed her bad treatment of you to effect your lack of friends, social life, etc.
We can just keep saying this for so long, and then what? People have stuck with you, trying to truly give you help, more than any other member I recall. So that should tell you that you don't turn everyone completely off (like your W wants you to think). There really are some folks who give a care. If you were impossible, I think we would have given up way back there.
"Having a fashion sense (though I philosophically disagree with this). "
Why? Would you want to go out with a woman who dresses like a slob or dresses outrageously? If not, then why would a woman want to go with a guy who doesn't care about his appearance?
"How do you work on this fear?"
By not allowing yourself to be afraid. You allow it every time.
"Every time I've tried to talk to her, I get put down."
To be honest it's NOT EVERY time. You've already conditioned yourself to hear anything that she says as critical of you. It's already been pointed out in your recent interactions with her.
"My background is rational, factual, Teutonic. Why can't our interchanges be factual?"
Because no one wants to live like that. We're humans. Not robots.
"I answer her put downs fairly, rationally, but it doesn't feel like enough: the "if you hit me, I'll hit you back (verbally!)", isn't there, but what stupid game is that?"
How many times do we have to tell you that the reason why she does that is to actually get you to show some kind of emotion. When you talk to her in a factual tone it sounds like you're a parent talking down to her and not a passionate person.
"Why not be rational?"
Seriously? Have you learned nothing in 9 years?
"d is home today, and needed help with math. Our interchanges are much more give and take and good. I pointed out an unreasonable expectation on her part. She told me about a dream, with something important written in a purple sky, which she absolutely had to photograph, so she stopped the train. I really loved her in that moment."
Why? According to you, things need to be rational. Your D being filled with emotion from seeing the sky enough to stop a train to photograph, shows her passion. She gets that from your W.
It's that PASSION that your W has been missing from YOU.
All - you have been most generous with your time and very patient, and I thank you. I think that an appropriate response, honoring your efforts, would be to finally do what you recommend and then get back to you (rather than more whining and questioning verbiage on my part).
Back later - Luke
MrBond is right! Luke your wife needs to see passion from you. If for no other reason that to respect you as a coparent!
Women are emotionl beings and require passionate people around them to stay happy. With two women in the house with you, I think that contrast between how they are and how you are is obvious to both of them.
You can do this. You have passion for life. Its in you. Let it out.
Women are not monolithic. Luke needs to show passion for Luke, not for his W. Just my two cents.
A big test tomorrow - I am giving my son and I a (unannounced, even though she asked if I had any big gifts for him) trip to Italy, just the two of us, to see the sun and the sights. Is this okay? Is it going to make her think she cannot trust me?
Also, I will give daughter a trip to London or Oxford in February. I assume it is okay to not have requested permission from W for two such large ticket items?
W is nicer, talking to me again, since about a week. We had a large 30+ people Christmas party on Saturday, and have another, smaller (8 people) one tomorrow, with our best friends here.
A Peaceful Christmas to all - evening is settling on the land here - Luke
though I agree with Gabby that there is nothing "Wrong" with your gift, why'd you lie about it when your w asked you specifically if you were giving son a big gift?
What were you afraid of? That she'd say no? She won't "let you" go there? How crazy is that? And tell me why you did NOT invite your d on this trip so she could be with her brother AND you...and a friend?
WHAT FEAR STOPPED YOU?
As for having less social awkwardness, I have to assume you think you are awkward when you are around your w or maybe there's a cultural thing you play into with the MIT backstory.
But I have met you and I am a "Meyers Brigg" tested, Extreme Extrovert...and I can say - you are just fine socially.
I mean, do you hide when you are in crowds? I met you one on one, and know you attended a workshop we both got a LOT out of, and they all said the same thing. We know you, and
YOU ARE FINE...you don't need an "awkward nerd" from MIT to make you feel alright.
You just need an accepting woman who "gets" you. She does not need to be an MIT "nerd".
Gosh...sigh
Other than an abused wife I once knew, you're one of those rare spouses I just can't wait to see free.
Sure, I wish your w had awakened, but it's been a DECADE of her being in an emotional "coma" with you;
and I don't see an awakening, or enough hope for one, for you to hang onto....certainly not now,
when YOU HAVE AWAKENED to what has been missing in your life...YOU ARE AWAKE, SO DON'T GO BACK TO SLEEP
You want to have a life of intimacy and meaningful connections, a life you crave, deserve and relationships you already HAVE with some people... but your marriage is hurting your parenting role, your r with your kids, and your view of yourself.
Staying in THIS marriage, as it is, is bad news. It's what I would fear the MOST for you, Not divorce...As for your list of goals, I like the goals for the most part. But I think some of them are based on false and negative views of yourself, to an extent.
I also think being more specific about HOW you will achieve the goals you do want to keep, will help you a lot.
So HOW will you get more passion in your life? Will you take up a hobby or 4? What types? My t once said I needed more passion in my life that would not threaten my m, and he suggested I continue doing theater. He was SO right. it channelled a lot of passion and socializing I needed that my h could not participate in due to his work schedule, it helped with my lonely times and I kept my marriage vows.
You can fine passion in your life, with hobbies and interests and or a different job
(though your job sounds interesting & well paying, I can see that working on your own so much would be hard to do. Probably impossible for ME.
Is there a way to stay in the field but change the work dynamic/environment?
Okay back to the trips and holidays...despite your fear of telling your w and then hiding it from her...it's done and she has ruined trips before. So you have some basis for wondering if the other shoe was going to drop I suppose.
Be HAPPY and not fearful & NOT timid, about the trips planned. NO apologies!
It's a nice GIFT FROM YOU to your kids...and if your wife says anthing, SO WHAT?Shake it off...literally, you may have to shake your head and ask about her amnesia. Didn't She bolt away from you at the last minute, from an all expenses paid UP FRONT trip to Poland, last year? A trip she knew about all along and cancelled HER share and daughters...b/c she didn't feel like it?
A trip she KNEW about ahead of time and let you pay for, only to cancel at the last minute AND she kept your d with her too, right?
That's so gross...if you feel pressured to "explain MORE", then remind her of how expensive that inexcusably rude behavior was and it hurt YOUR D too, not just the wife...
it's not all about her and keeping her happy. And if it were, too bad b/c it's not possible to keep YOUR wife happy. She's not happily married and she has chosen not to be.
As for your clothes, I thought you were referring to yourself. But truth be told, I don't recall anything off about what you were wearing, but, leaving that aside....just dress to show your self respect & sense of expression.
A man of some means and education, does not dress like Jay Z or a rapper (unless he's in the industry and lives in Hollywood or New York, and even then, they CAN look snappy). Your clothes ought to be clean and fit you well...
I think the superficiality (which I assume is the philisophical objection you have) comes only when you are wearing designer clothes BECAUSE they are "designer" clothes not b/c they are functional or well made.
Wear well made clothes that feel comfortable and flatter you. That's just good self care and grooming. BTW, as you may recall, I have a broken leg and can't bear weight on my leg for sometime. I use a "walker" and was told that the hospital store sold "designer purses FOR walkers"...I didn't ask who the designer was but saw two types. One is beige canvas, the other is floral canvas, with velcro you can attach to the walker so it's slightly hard for a thief to steal.
Hmmm tough call. I bet the beige canvas velcro will clash with fewer items so that's the "designer" I chose...
Luke,
Take up hobbies and find one that someday you can share with another person. You remind me of a dentist friend we have had for years. Like you he's very bright and THINKS he is a nerd...
He imagines himself terribly awkward socially but manages to mingle with most people just fine. He's NOT "cool" but that simply isn't important to anyone I know, over 30. I have "cool friends", but they are sometimes hard to get close to.
Anyhow, our dentist friend is also an astronomy lover. He found some folks online who are into it and they formed the local astronomy club, and he is president of the astronomy club.
(He LOVES astronomy so much my d wanted a telescope 3 years ago, b/c he inspired her.)
Then he purchased some land near Shaver Lake (not too far from Yosemite, in a stunning area with very little light pollution) and he put giant telescopes there. They are enclosed in small "cabins". He rents them out to universities all across the world, who control them remotely. It's very cool and he makes money doing what he loves (and has one scope of his own of course).
See, He followed his bliss, even while working at his dentist job, which he likes plenty well enough (and it sure pays the bills).
He has met many MANY men and some women,
who share his passion. Turns out, One man in the club had a sister, (a talented, smart actress of all things) & she loves astronomy too. She also loves our dentist friend b/c of his passion for astronomy and his kindness, his wit and his intellect and b/c he is SO different than the men she ordinarily meets... so they began dating and are now married....and the rest is history...
He did not "need" another astronomer (or dentist) as a partner.
He simply needed a woman who could love him as he is. He deserves that.
So do you.
So go show your kids that they are fascinating
to you, and that you are fascinated by many things in the world. The way to be interesting to people is to be interestED...
like Dale Carnegie says, "ask people about themselves and they'll describe you as a 'great conversationalist.'"
It might sound superficial or manipulative but it's just a tool that helps you get to know someone better and faster. Ask...listen...follow up. Be interseted in them. Make yourself FIND them interesting. Like you probably did with both of your children when they were born. Weren't they interesting to you?
I know I was pleasantly surprised by how cool I found MY kids...
and Luke, you have a
((( Merry Christmas )))
A big test tomorrow - I am giving my son and I a (unannounced, even though she asked if I had any big gifts for him) trip to Italy, just the two of us, to see the sun and the sights. Is this okay? Is it going to make her think she cannot trust me?
Also, I will give daughter a trip to London or Oxford in February. I assume it is okay to not have requested permission from W for two such large ticket items?
W is nicer, talking to me again, since about a week. We had a large 30+ people Christmas party on Saturday, and have another, smaller (8 people) one tomorrow, with our best friends here.
A Peaceful Christmas to all - evening is settling on the land here - Luke
25yearmic, you are amazing.. Simply the Santa gift I have been looking all this season. You have it all wrapped , the gift of life and the rapture and the music of passion and the courage and the will to see the unknow and undiscovered. I am glad to have read your post. I am always motivated by your point of view, a true north star and beacon for all warriors . I meet Luke personally, he is beta dominant male, he is afraid to lose and fears the unknown. He is risk averse and wants to play life safe all the time, as an intellectual he wants estimations and predictions that give his safe bets and wants a good result. He can compromise to 9 yrs even if he looses his head. We know there are theories of a good life but one has to live a good life on principle, respect ,love, courage, fairness, caring for husband and nonviolenance and purpose driven, failure, challenge, passion, legacy, balance in temperament. Many more things play and family and your women helps to nurture these qualities.. He is also exhibiting beta dominance. You are a MAN, so be one get some alpha traits out in action. Get a nice women in your life, detach from this sucker in your life , even if your attched to her emotionally. You are the best judge of your life, you are a valuble soul and you have kids who love you. you call the shots for your life , Dont allow people to walk all over you , don't be scared to say no, have self respect you loose it you don't exist..you just dead man waking ....period .... Have a Merry Christmas and happy new year all...
Brahim, thanks for the kind words.
We are all on our own journeys here, and I am on mine.
I agree that Luke seems to want all bases covered before moving in any direction and the past ten years have seen little movement on his end, til recently.
And even now Luke, you SOUND as if your w's words and responses are where you invest your self esteem, even while recognizing, cognitively, that it should not and must not b/c she is Not a giver of positives for you.
My real advice is this observation which I hope you and (we) all take to heart and contemplate on this day, the first day of the New Year. Which is to say...
LIFE IS SHORT...
Do what it takes to be happy and stop beating your head against the same brick wall, going down cheese less tunnels.
((( )))
So how was Christmas and New Years?
Hi Mr. Bond,
Only one positive thing to report: wife left yet another nameless note asking me to look into getting rid of our wooden sailboat and into getting a poorly closing door stripped of its paint, which irritated me enough to make me text her this:
"Hi XYZ - you seem to have forgotten that I have a name - PQR or IJK will do just fine - I think we can take the door off its hinges and just plane off the offending area - MyNameHere".
I think I detected a slight improvement in her attitude as a result of this.
I am in the States now, for three weeks again.
Luke
A couple of other things:
o I talked to a French friend whose marriage has been bad for years also, nice to connect with him again.
o we had a 30+ person Christmas party, which people seemed to like
o another friend - it is said by dance teacher - is having an affair and looking into moving out of his house
Luke
In a month that was the only correspondence you had with your W?
You were on the right track and we were just getting to the root of things when you stopped posting. We are going to need a little more details.
BTW, you sounded pretty passive-aggressive in your text. Like we mentioned before, her not saying your name isn't a big deal. I don't know why you keep insisting it is. I mean she is writing the note to YOU and no one else. Why should she have to put your name on it?
It's not a big deal and it's not rude.
Hi Mr. Bond,
Not being addressed by name for weeks, not having it mentioned when Happy Birthday was sung, etc., being a nonentity in her eyes, bugged me, so for me this was important. I also think it was good to show my annoyance.
Details? My son and I did not go to Italy over Christmas, as my daughter was upset with the idea and wanted him home (said the whole family should have discussed this earlier). He and I did go biking (Sweden had an above freezing Christmas) and did other small things though, so it was okay. The trip was postponed to early April, when he has vacation, and wife/daughter are still in school, so they cannot have objections.
I didn't have the stomach/b***s/courage for any fighting, and so sleep downstairs. This upset me a lot for a few days, but then I got used to it.
The divorce, just 45 days away now if all goes as announced, will hopefully change this, as we then share the kids, and so I will get to see my daughter more.
I spent my time organizing my music collection and now have a fancy audio player and headphones.
Went to a French meetup this morning (I am in the US), am going to a drum circle tonight, and will do a hike with my two bosses and a colleague tomorrow. It was nice to meet a bunch of charming French speakers today.
I am just letting the previously announced divorce come down the tracks at me. Why fight now? There will probably be plenty of potential for that as the year progresses.
Finally, your advice of being with people was good, and I enjoy it, but I still occasionally vacillate and withdraw and feel inadequate.
Enough.
Luke
"Not being addressed by name for weeks, not having it mentioned when Happy Birthday was sung, etc., being a nonentity in her eyes, bugged me, so for me this was important. I also think it was good to show my annoyance."
It's petty. As a matter of fact, not many couples call each other specifically by name. When you don't have to say the other person's name, it requires a level of intimacy that shows understanding and not disrespect.
"Details? My son and I did not go to Italy over Christmas, as my daughter was upset with the idea and wanted him home (said the whole family should have discussed this earlier)."
And you gave in, of course, just as you do with your W. You don't realize how you continually groom your D to be like your W and your son to be like you.
"He and I did go biking (Sweden had an above freezing Christmas) and did other small things though, so it was okay. The trip was postponed to early April, when he has vacation, and wife/daughter are still in school, so they cannot have objections."
You're teaching him to give in just as you have. Do you really want him to be like you? And your D like your W? Just before your last post, you said your D was treating you with disrespect and you were going to tell her that you will not be treated in such a manner. But you gave in as usual.
"I didn't have the stomach/b***s/courage for any fighting, and so sleep downstairs. This upset me a lot for a few days, but then I got used to it."
Gone back to the same behavior as before. What fighting was there? You still hadn't gotten yourself strong in yourself in order to stand up to your W.
"The divorce, just 45 days away now if all goes as announced, will hopefully change this,"
If you're hoping for that, I can say you will be sadly disappointed. If your W doesn't treat you with respect now, do you honestly think she will do so after she gets a new man in her life? When that happens, you'll be bullied by her, her OM and your D.
"as we then share the kids, and so I will get to see my daughter more."
But by then she may not want to see you.
"I am just letting the previously announced divorce come down the tracks at me. Why fight now? There will probably be plenty of potential for that as the year progresses."
No one said you have to fight FOR a D. You have to start fighting for YOU. Did you actually file or did your W?
"Enough."
No it's not. You don't understand that it will get worse and it will follow through onto the rest of your relationships and your children. It already has just as everyone has warned you and each time you give an excuse for it.
Bottom line is you haven't fought for you.
Luke,
I agree with MrBond. You need to TELL your wife how things are going to be for you. STOP asking permission or caving into pressure. What are you afraid of? That you might lose her? She's gone already! The amazing thing is that you are letting your daughter call the shots, too. Who's the parent here?
You're training your daughter and your son. You need to show them how things really should be. YOU lead. Not your daughter OR your wife. If they want to go a different direction, DONT follow them! You just keep going yours. If you don't step up and lead your family, they will ALL desert you. "Leading" doesn't mean "pleasing".
Thanks MMG and Mr. B,
I have 5 days left here in the States. Any suggestions on something constructive to do in that time? I've had 1 text message from daughter, Skyped with son, nothing at all from W.
Do I, e.g., write daughter that I'd like to hear from her? I've emailed her a few times, and sent a few photos.
If they have nothing to give me, then I don't have much to give them, though this stinks.
D is not a certainty, due to W's financial situation and her liking where we live. The announced deadline for it is early March, when daughter turns 16.
I have more fun here than in Sweden, and get respect from colleagues at work. Would be nice with some love and affection though too.
This Tuesday marks 10 years of minimal physical contact and no ML, and next week 10 years on DB. I should drink a bottle of tonic water to celebrate.
Luke
This Tuesday marks 10 years of minimal physical contact and no ML, and next week 10 years on DB. I should drink a bottle of tonic water to celebrate.
I think it would drive me to drink..........but not tonic water. (Just kidding, Luke.)
Your teenage daughter may be giving you the silent treatment b/c this is the model set before her by her mother. Also, she could be very hurt that you chose to make such a huge difference in her Christmas gift and her brother's gift, IDK. But thinking back to when I was 15, I would have been ticked if one of my parents showed that much favoritism to my sibling.
I don't think you deliberately meant to hurt her, and you withdrew the trip once she and her mother voiced their feelings. BTW, how did your son feel after his Christmas gift didn't pan out? I really was hoping you would take 25's excellent suggestion to invite both your children on the trip and tell your D that she could take a friend (which all teenage girls would want to take another girl along). Or maybe if it had not been a gift to one and not the other? Anyway, it is done. My question and concern now is.....did you learn from the experience?
We have asked for an update and wondered how you survived the holidays, but .........
I believe it is hopeless (and I have never told anyone this before) to hang onto the idea you will ever have more in your M with your present W. However, I think we would still try to help you with "life", but I'm not at all sure of what you want or what your goal is anymore. I know what you say is scheduled to happen when your D turns 16, but then you aren't certain b/c W likes where she lives.
I think if you are to have a R with your daughter, you will have to lead it. You cannot afford to wait for the child to make the moves inthe relationship......or you will lose her, Luke. She may be her mother's daughter, but she needs her father in her life. Even if you refuse to do what the board members has urged you to do to reverse the damaging effects her mother is doing to her (teaching her how to be a total bi!ch to men), please do not deprive your child from her daddy. It is vital to a girl's emotional development (as with either gender) that she has a healthy relationship with her dad. If you really love this child, you will overcome or learn to do whatever you need to do to save her. But so far, all I have seen from you is a feeling of awkwardness (according to you), but at what point does it become stubbornness? She may not know any better, but you should.
Teenage girls are usually emotional to one extreme or the other. If you will just TRY to express some sign of love for her, I believe she will respond. It may not be immediate, IDK. I'm sure people here would be very willing to help you word a letter about your feelings for her. Have you ever told her how important she is to you? Have you told her you were sorry if you hurt her over the Christmas trip? I think maybe saying you never meant to hurt her...would be a good start. Then you could go on with how much you love her.
You can't treat her the same cold way you have dealt with your W. Not if you want to have a daughter...and someday be able to see grandchildren. That day will come before you realize how fast the time got away......and you did nothing more to ensure a R with your daughter. It takes more effort than a few non-emotional words of facts and sending a few pictures of places you visit. I think maybe she's not too interested in that part anymore. But she can become interested after she sees you more than some stranger who shows up at her house from time to time.
Luke, I can relate to some of the struggles you're having with your D15 as I'm going through similar issues with D17. I think Sandi posted some great thoughts on this. I would like to add that DB'ing is for your W, not your kids. When your kids treat you coldly, you've got to do all the work yourself and keep reaching out to them. My D17 has run very hot and cold ever since W moved out, at first it really hurt my feelings because I already had a lot on my plate dealing with a WAS. But I eventually discovered that like Sandi said she's modeling her mom's behavior. The cold treatment starts whenever she's at her mom's, but her mom has said she's cold towards her when she's with me, so at least she doesn't discriminate, LOL! I think they're just at an age where this is very hard to accept and deal with, as they get older and mature a bit they'll soften their stance. My D19 is away at college so not home much, but she definitely doesn't ever do the cold treatment like D17 does.
So be patient, reach out to her, know that you're going to have to do all the work, and when she goes cold then respond by being that much more loving and caring towards her. When I say "reach out" what I mean is initiate conversations, text her, send her funny pics (I text the kids a lot of photos of our dogs doing silly stuff), take her to lunch/ dinner, discuss the next vacation with her and get her input, take her to the movies, hug her, kiss the top of her head or cheek, ask about her boyfriends. She may act like she hates it but inside she loves feeling cared about.
Sandi2, AnotherStander -
one interesting thing the Christmas trip debacle led to was a discussion with my D, about traveling. She prefers to stay at home, especially over Christmas, while I prefer to travel and escape the Swedish winter. She values having her brother at home then, togetherness, and escaping from the daily world a bit (which tends to stress her out).
We discussed where she could imagine going to again, and she said Japan (we went there a long time ago, all 4 of us, a year after my W left our bed), so maybe a trip there is a possibility. Taking a friend with her there would definitely be an extravagance, but is not outside the realm of possibility - we'll see.
Writing my D a letter is an interesting idea. I do tell her that I love her (my phone or text sign off is "love and kisses") and that doing so and helping her "is my rule", and we do have a nice time together when we can be without my W. My W is such a dominating presence sometimes, though, that this can distort things.
Having a good relationship with D is important to me. She is the only nearby person that gives me love sometimes, which is so wonderful when it happens. My leading her manifests itself mostly as doing stuff together, such as a day skiing in a few weeks. Going to the new Disney movie Frozen is another possibility.
Thanks for the further ideas and pointers on working on this. I'll see if I can cobble together a letter and get back to you.
L
That's all good to hear, Luke. I want to ask you to think about something, and you may not understand my point. When I read your posts, I get the impression you see traveling as a solution to many things that are lacking in your life. You don't know how to communicate with your family and you don't know how to show your love........and you give them expensive trips to do it for you. It's like this has become your LL. You use travel to escape the loneliness and sadness in your life. But these trips may not be the love language of your family. In other words, they may not see your love for then by traveling to some wonderful place in the world.
My parents were not able to give me nice vacations. In fact, we had very little material things when I was growing up. My parents had to show their love for me in other ways. What would you do if you could not travel with your family? How would you express love to your children?
If we learn anything while we are on this board, it should be that it's not so much about what our LL is......but it's learning the LL of our S or our children. If we don't learn how to relate our love to them, then they believe we don't love them.
Now I have told you this before and even told you to forget about "trips". They may be the answer for you, but not your daughter.
Signing off with " love & kisses" can been seen as nothing more than part of the signature closing. It's what you say in the body of the letter that really counts. For God's sake, can't you just sit down and tell her what she means to you........without bringing another trip into the discussion?
Luke,
There's a 5LL book for children and teenagers. You might want to pick up a copy for yourself so you can learn a few things along the way in relating with your children.
As for texting, I'd like to say that Sandi has a point about "hugs & kisses" as a generic ending. When my mother texts me and my sisters, she ends with a variety of ILY's such as "I love you madly", "To the moon and back" etc. When I see those types of ILYs, I get the warm fuzzies and know that I am truly loved by my mother. I sense it and feel it!