It’s time again! New thread!
I feel like the surgery was the last thing I needed to get done.
During the last seven weeks I have closed down three businesses and opened a new one, W moved out and surgery is now also done. My house is almost ready for the winter and most important my path seems clear:
Be the best man and father possible
GAL
Work on me
Detach and stay as dark as possible
The last weeks have been crazy and I do hope that I, in the months to come will find more peace and more time to myself.
I think my head is now straightened out by caring people on this forum.
I have so many things on my to-do list that needs to get done but right now I need to recover from surgery.
I still love W and I still hope for another chance!
I feel this LRT is good for me. I think about her all the time but I do not feel like calling her and my head isn’t making up excuses to contact her anymore – it’s almost like the opposite right now.
So this path seems right for me and hopefully it will also be that in regards of possible R.
Last time I saw W was 28. August but we speak quite often on the phone. I am not reaching out anymore and only call her to talk to Ds.
As always when I start a new thread I look back on my sit and especially to all of you! I can’t express what this board means to me, but I truly believe that I would have been a mess without you! I will be all right what ever happens!
Thanks!
Old threads here:
WAW / ILUBINILWY / CONFUSED! WAW / ILUBINILWY / CONFUSED! (Thread II) WAW / ILUBINILWY / CONFUSED! (Thread III) WAW / ILUBINILWY / CONFUSED! (Thread IV)NEW LIFE / NEW ME NEW LIFE / NEW ME - DEPARTURE
So glad you have the surgery behind you now.
I am home on a combination of morphine, painkillers and redwine
Wow! what a person has to go through to get pepped up!
I put her on the grouptext I sent to a lot of people after surgery
Fantastic idea!! It shows you are not giving her special attention apart from others. I like it!
Sandi: I am so glad the children won’t be here for some days! – thanks!
I'm glad you took my advice about the little ones.
11AM here
I am riding the couch these hours and in fact that’s quite comfortable. There are a lot of things I would like to get done but I need to relax and recover so it is movie time.
W just called with no other reason than asking how I am doing.
She had this real soft and caring voice on – haven’t heard that tone of voice in a long time.
How are you doing, are they going to check up on you, can you relax, how did they do the surgery...she kept on asking and I answered. Then she said that it is good I don’t have the children this weekend and that she just dropped them of at XW1. I agreed to this!
Once again I didn’t ask her anything, told her thanks for calling and ended the call after 1½ min.
F,
I root for you every day and I pray that your W sees the man you have become and finds it in her heart to give your M another chance. That said, I also know you will come out of all of this okay regardless.
I visited neighbors yesterday evening. Good food and good company.
I am feeling much better today and have been working quite a lot on my home today. I am off the morphine for 24 hours right now but I still take some painkillers. My stomach is all black, blue and yellow and feels like it have been 2x4 for real, but I guess that what I could expect, even though I try to live without any expectations
I will definitely be ready for work tomorrow and that’s great - I need people around me these days.
I have (as all ways) been thinking a lot about sit! I still know that I will come out all right but since I do hope for a chance to R somewhere in the future my mind is wandering about how R starts, what could happen and how I should to respond if W makes a move.
(I know perfectly well that R isn’t about to happen soon – If at all! I just want to feel prepared!)
It seems like the path I am on right now will either end by me throwing in the towel or W making a move.
How does R start?
Does this follow a “script” as well?
What is the appropriate reaction/action?
I also think a lot about what is going on in the mind of the WAW! How is she experiencing all of this? It is intriguing thoughts that leads absolutely nowhere but I can’t help thinking them. I would love 5 min. inside Ws head – just to get a better understanding of what she is going through.
I have tried to call S10 once today. I miss the children terribly!
I root for you every day and I pray that your W sees the man you have become and finds it in her heart to give your M another chance. That said, I also know you will come out of all of this okay regardless.
LTH, you have no idea how much a message like this means to me! It makes me glad and give’s me strength.
THANKS!
F
Nice day – I have been to work all day. I am recovering fast and feeling much better today.
D4 called this evening and that was great. Afterwards W wanted to talk – in fact I do believe she made D4 call me. W asked about how I was doing, if I had been working and so on. She also told me that MIL was staying at her place these days. Just chit chat – she did both! I listened and answered her questions. The convo with W was less than a minute.
After this I started thinking about if I am coming out as not nice or to cold towards her.
After this I started thinking about if I am coming out as not nice or to cold towards her.
Does your tone of voice sound happy and friendly?
Sandi,
I believe so! I try hard to remember this every time she calls.
...but I am also short in words and I haven't asked her a question in weeks that didnt concern children or practicals. She does most the talking since I don't tell her more than nosey neighbor.
I try very hard to follow your advice strictly.
(Tone differs a little depending on when she calls)
Then don't worry about her feeling you are cold towards her. This is hard for you, I realize. I know you really want to reach out to her, but just remember that she will need to see you are doing quite well without her. With some WAW's, they need to think the LBH is no longer interested in her life or what she does. It triggers something that causes her to want to see if she could still make you interested...."if" she wanted to. That is often when the WAW will take a temp check to see where he is emotionally.
She's not there yet. As often as she contacts you, it's hard to tell how long it may be before she decides to take a little test to see just how well you're doing.
Don't doubt yourself, F. You are doing a really great job!
F, glad your recovery is going well! It sounds like you're in a good place regarding your sitch too, and that's great to see!
Regarding how R starts, well I wish I could tell you from personal experience but I can't. But I have read quite a few R stories and surprisingly it usually happens rather quickly, almost like a reverse BD. The WAS often asks to talk, and that initiates a conversation that lasts hours and covers all kinds of ground. If you ever get to that point it's important not to rush into anything, she's STILL a WAW and at that time will still have done ZERO work on herself. So here you are a changed man, having made an incredibly lengthy and strenuous journey, and you're dealing with the exact same W as before. Many LBS's become disillusioned when piecing starts because they expect their WAS to be as changed as they are and ready to start a new and improved life together. But the WAS is still carrying all the same old baggage and struggling with the same old demons. Their journey is just beginning at the start of piecing. Those who go through piecing say it's much harder work than DB'ing, and I believe it. At least in DB'ing you're only dealing with yourself and you've got 100% control!
It doesn't always happen this way, one of my buddies didn't hardly talk to his WAW for over a year and then they started going out to meals just as friends, then became friends with benefits, then fell back in love. It's been a very slow process for them.
Good post AS. And, to F, let me add this while we are on that subject about your W calling you and you being concerned about sounding cold to her. If she ever ask to meet "to talk" or if she ever gets over into the R talk, then by all means....listen to what she has to say and don't end the conversation.
Sandi, AS
Thanks for the kind words – mostly I feel I am in a good place and with my path so clear it is quite easy to make the right calls. Thanks both for putting me here!
In fact I don’t feel like reaching out right now. Off course it hits my mind to call her but it also hits my mind to call a friend. I do call the friend and simply leave W alone or call a friend instead. It doesn’t feel that hard but off course I miss the family. The reason I thought about the “cold” is only my everlasting thoughts of not damaging anything. I know by now that I can’t do right all the time but I try very hard not to do wrong – I hope that makes sense!
So Sandi, I will just keep doing exactly what I do! …and I do have the patience.
(To others reading: I changed her picture in my cell to one of the Ds laughing their but’s off – that has helped my PMA when she calls and the picture comes to the screen! Furthermore I have a little routine (two deep breaths, a major smile, think of something funny) before answering that also helps my PMA.)
That is often when the WAW will take a temp check to see where he is emotionally.
How does a temp check look?
How should I respond if it happens?
If she ever ask to meet "to talk" or if she ever gets over into the R talk, then by all means....listen to what she has to say and don't end the conversation.
Got it! She hasn’t invited for some time now! Last thing about getting together was her telling my friend that she wasn’t pleased about me not visiting her house.
AS, thanks for clarifying! Especially the part about the WAW still being a WAW is good to keep in the back of my mind because I calculate that I will still have to treat her like a WAW….if this ever happens!
One more question
I have some practical’s that need to be sorted out:
1. She is still using my exchange server and I wouldn’t give anybody but my W that credit. She is not my W so I want her out. This will be quite inconvenient for her!
2. We used heat for around 800$ when she lived here. I find it reasonable that she pays half. This will be quite inconvenient for her!
3. She still has some stuff in my house and it doesn’t seem like she is planning to move it. This will be quite inconvenient for her!
4. She took some books and a few other things that belongings to me when she moved and I would like them back. I have asked her twice for these items on mail. Last time she didn’t answer.
I have tried to write an email today but it comes out cold so I thought about calling her – but no calls! 1-3 will properly turn into an argument when brought up! Mindreading – YES! But based on experience!
Is this something I should just bring up at some point when she calls me or should I go with the mail?
Thanks
F
Sandi,
I posted 4 points yesterday that I need to get sorted out with W but I forgot one: Christmas
As you properly recall most my family is gone and therefore I am planning on speaking to neighbors about getting together for
Christmas. I hope they will accept this.
I can’t speak to neighbors before W and I have sorted the Christmas planning out so I need to do this soon.
W has stated several times that she wants us to be together at Christmas evening but I don’t want that. I will need to address this also since W and I haven’t talked about how to handle the Ds at Christmas. I am quite sure that she will agree on me having them since S10 is here as well and the children should experience this together. At the same time she will NOT, in any way, be happy, discovering that I am planning in another direction than her.
I am not scared of this confrontation – I just want to play my hand as well as possible.
Any advice regarding this and the 4 point list from yesterday?
Thanks!
F
F, you sound so well and positive. I am very pleased for you. Keep it going. Which I am sure isn't hard to do anymore.
You're sounding good F!
Why do I get the feeling that sooner or later you will compile all the stats and come up with a DB formula?
HWA, T
Thank for caring words!
I am definitely up these days and feeling better and better.
HWA, Good to hear from you!! I do hope you will post soon about how the vacation is treating you?
Why do I get the feeling that sooner or later you will compile all the stats and come up with a DB formula?
Well, my dear T – that feeling properly origins from you thinking about doing exactly that!
By the way: I am almost through Psycho-Cybernetics first time! That is a totally awesome book – thanks for recommending it! I will have to go through it several times to comprehend it, but it is GREAT!
Cease the day!
F
W has stated several times that she wants us to be together at Christmas evening but I don’t want that.
Last Christmas my W wanted to do the gift exchange together and I didn't. Here's the bottom line- what do you think is best for your kids? For me I didn't really have to think long about it, clearly the kids would be happiest if we all got together and did the gift exchange and then had our traditional lunch. So that's what we did, and it went great.
W has stated several times that she wants us to be together at Christmas evening but I don’t want that.
Last Christmas my W wanted to do the gift exchange together and I didn't. Here's the bottom line- what do you think is best for your kids? For me I didn't really have to think long about it, clearly the kids would be happiest if we all got together and did the gift exchange and then had our traditional lunch. So that's what we did, and it went great.
It's at times like this where certain ideas clash in DB.
Right now F is NC with his W unless it's about the kids so his W can't cake eat.
All being together for Christmas would be great for the kids and no doubt that is what they want. At the same time they would also probably like him to go over to his W's for dinner every time she invites him too.
He is trying to show her what life is like without him. He can't do that if they spend Christmas together.
AS,
I get your point but tradition is somewhat different here!
We celebrate Christmas in the evening on the 24. and gifts are after dinner! I don’t want to be around W for dinner, dance and a whole evening – furthermore I hope to spend the evening at my neighbors. Might be better for the children and it might not, but it won’t happen!
Even if possible, T1000 is spot on!
I am planning on seeing her and children at her place for an hour or two on the 22 or 23. december if that’s possible. Otherwise it will be after Christmas. This will only happen if I believe it will do my sit any good at that time.
Hope this makes sence!
Thanks for being here!
F
He is trying to show her what life is like without him. He can't do that if they spend Christmas together.
Here is my take on this, and I believe it's consistent with DB'ing: if she never sees him then what exactly is it that she's living without? Out of sight, out of mind. In this context I firmly believe limited contact is much better than no contact. If the WAS sees a happy, healthy, independent LBS every now and then, they start to wonder what life with that changed LBS might be like. I don't remember zero contact being recommended in DR except in the "after the last resort technique", and in that instance MWD warns that it may lead to divorce.
He is trying to show her what life is like without him. He can't do that if they spend Christmas together.
Here is my take on this, and I believe it's consistent with DB'ing: if she never sees him then what exactly is it that she's living without? Out of sight, out of mind. In this context I firmly believe limited contact is much better than no contact. If the WAS sees a happy, healthy, independent LBS every now and then, they start to wonder what life with that changed LBS might be like. I don't remember zero contact being recommended in DR except in the "after the last resort technique", and in that instance MWD warns that it may lead to divorce.
I agree that she won't experience the new F if they never have any contact.
I do think in some sitches that the LBS will be missed at some point whether they are there in person or not.
My W is going away for xmas with either OM2 or her parents. I don't know for sure but I am fairly confident that at some point she will wonder what it if I was there. OM2 isn't their father and has no idea how look after S4. Similar for her parents. They might help out every now and then but they aren't getting up every day when the kids rise.
When I said:
"It's at times like this where certain ideas clash in DB."
I was more meaning the idea's on this board for what works and should have said as much.
Right now F is following Sandi's advice as much to the letter as he can.
Fartiltre, Hope your doing well. Still on moderation, so more when I get off :-)
Received an email from W this morning
Hey you
I hope you are recovering well :-)
Will it be all right if I put the Ds appointment’s in your calendar? – also when they stay with me?
I think it will be nice for you to know what they are doing/have done when they are here.
Have a nice day
Autosignature at bottom
(She also put two appointments in my calendar.)
According to my last posts from yesterday I am thinking about an answer something like the below, but I am afraid to pi$$ her to much off! I need the Christmas and money issue solved now but the rest can wait and if I wait a month it will make no difference to me. So I am wondering if I should just get it all done at once or only address the urgent matters.
Thoughts, comments, advice???
Hey
Thanks for mail! I am better and next week the stiches goes out :-)
I don’t think you should put appointments in my calendar when the girls are at my place so please drop me a mail instead. I will be great if you send the appointments to me but do not expect me to accept them. I don’t want my calendar filled with appointments that I am not attending. I would very much like to see them so the thoungt is super – I want to know what happens in Ds life.
Also please avoid signing up the girls for regular stuff like gym or scout when they are at my place – without us talking about it first. I don’t think we should disappoint them unnecessary and if stuff can’t be done there is no need for them to know anything about it. I do hope you agree.
And then a few practicals – we can also take these on phone but here they are:
I need for you to move your exchange account to another place in near future, so I can shut it down in here. Please let me know when you are done moving it.
X has billed us and it should be paid now. Will you transfer half or should I just deduct the amount from childcare?
There are several items out here that belongs to you and as I go through the place more will come. I will bring a little every time I drop of the bags and just put it in the shed. All your stuff, including the things in the barn, will have to be gone before spring so please prepare for that.
You have some of my items that I would like back. Please look into this.
Finally a little about Christmas and New Year. We haven’t agreed on this and it is properly best done on the phone but here’s some thought’s that we can talk about next time we talk. I would like this planned rather quickly.
I would like for the girls to be here when S10 is. That means that I hope they can be here for Christmas and at your place for New Year. Next year we switch. It is my opinion that girls shouldn’t switch place on Christmas day (dec. 24) and first Christmas day (dec. 25) like we have discussed it around S10 and I think the experiences from S10 should also count for the girls.
The girls are at my place from the 18. December, but if you would like to see them a day or two before Christmas that’s totally understandable and we can work something out around the 22. and/or 23. December.
Then we can switch back on second Christmas day. (her birthday) That will give you a birthday morning every second year and a birthday evening every second year – I hope that’s all right.
If you get the Ds second Christmas day, then according to schedule, they will come home on the 1. January. If you have any plans we can talk about this and if you would like for the Ds to be with me on New Year just let me know.
That’s my thoughts
Talk to you soon
F
What does she mean putting appointments on your calendar? Does she have access to your mobile/electronic calendar?
Wow!
Sandi,
She does!
I manage an Exchange server for employees and made an account for W. Totally smart when together but not anymore.
I have locked her out so she can only see her own calendar by know but I don't feel like managing her mail account and calendar. Moving this account won’t be that pleasant for her but I don't want her in my company's server anymore! It can wait but it will have to be done!
What are your thoughts on my letter?
Fist of all, I think you need to break your email into two separate ones. I wouldn't bring up the subject of Christmas in your answer to her putting appointments on your calendar.
BTW, did I miss the part from her wanting to put the dates the girls would be at your place? Anyway, let me "attempt" my version of an answer to her.
Hey
[b]Thanks for mail! I am better and next week the stiches goes out :-)
I prefer you not put appointments in my calendar when the girls are at my place. I want to know what happens in D's life, however, I don’t want my calendar filled with appointments that I am not attending. It would be super if you would notify me by email. Also, let me know in advance whenever we need to discuss possible future activities (such as scouts, gym, etc.) that would take place when they would be staying at my place. We don't want to disappoint them unnecessarily by not being able to get stuff done. I hope you agree.
And then a few practicals – we can also take these on phone but here they are:
I need for you to move your exchange account to another place in near future, so I can shut it down in here. Please let me know when you are done moving it.
X has billed us and it should be paid now. Will you transfer half or should I just deduct the amount from childcare?
There are several items out here that belongs to you and as I go through the place more will come. I will bring a little every time I drop of the bags and just put it in the shed. All your stuff, including the things in the barn, will have to be gone before spring so please prepare for that.
You have some of my items that I would like back. Could you look into it, please?
Thanks
Talk to you soon
F
She most certainly should
not have access to your calendar! In fact, I'm hoping this might be a little eye opener for her.
The only parts of your letter I changed is italicized.
Wait until you get a response until you send one about holiday plans. She doesn't need to get all that at once.
Much better wording, thanks! It is hard with the translation but I get your points! Thanks!
I will sleep on it and properly send it tomorrow.
BTW, did I miss the part from her wanting to put the dates the girls would be at your place?
I am not sure I understand this question?
The GS was arranged before she moved out but after BD. Few weeks ago she signed up D4 for gym but afterwards D4 told that she didnt like it and stopped. Gym was on wednesdays and thereby every second time in "my" time and she W didnt ask.
Is this what you mean?
When can I bring up the Christmas stuff - I would like to get it done so I can speak with neighbors.
Should this be done on the phone instead?
F
Did not see your second post until now - I will do that!
I am not sure I understand this question?
The GS was arranged before she moved out but after BD. Few weeks ago she signed up D4 for gym but afterwards D4 told that she didnt like it and stopped. Gym was on wednesdays and thereby every second time in "my" time and she W didnt ask.
Is this what you mean?
After I reread what you wrote, I don't think I understand my question, either.
No problem, just pretend I didn't ask it.
Yes, I remember how she signed the girls up for all that and then expected you to take them on
your time. Very controlling of her, I must say. Your answer (this time) will be nice and accusing (even though her wanting to put appointments of your calendar is controlling behavior). If she doesn't get the message loud and clear....then you can always say it a little stronger the next time around.
Agreed!
I will send it tomorrow and then hold the Christmas stuff back for some days. I will as always post before I do anything
Sandi, Thanks once again! I am off to bed and wish you a pleasant evening!
F
Day is over – once again!
Tomorrow I get to pick up Ds and that will be GREAT!
I had a session at my shrink today. We talked about a lot of stuff but mostly my passive aggression and how I should look at it. It is her opinion that I have to look at how and where I obtained this if I want to get rid of it – totally. I get her points but will properly have to work on this for the rest of my life. The big part in this was realizing it!
It was an ok session and I have decided that I want to stay with her for a long time or until I decide otherwise
I have talked to my doctor and they have granted me 12 sessions more so I will be able to stay with my shrink for at least the next year – that’s great! I feel the combination of therapist, reading and this forum is doing me so good!
Furthermore I feel good these days and that’s without my children around me! I feel strength returning and soon I will be able to start exercising again – it’s more than two months ago now and I miss it!
Last but not least, I once again got some needed help on my sit! Gratitude!
TEXTING WITH W THIS EVENING:ME (7.39PM): I will pick up bags tomorrow morning around 7.45AM if possible - otherwise in the afternoon….ok?
Please put note in kindergarten that I will pick up D4 at 4.15PM.
Say hello to the girls and give them a hug :-)
FW: (7.41PM)That’s totally all right. Will D6 attend scouting tomorrow..? Ds says hi :-)ME: (7.46PM)YupW: (7.49PM)D6 is smilingW: (7.56PM)Ds says good nightI didn’t answer the last one! I had written the answer but didn’t send it since I realized that this was properly just W cake-eating (small cake, but still cake) and I will see the Ds tomorrow. At the same time I try to be the one that ends convo’s.
I realize that this “Say hello to the girls and give them a hug :-)” should properly not have been send since it is not very business-like. It is much easier with S10 since he has his own phone!
OK maybe I'm just confused, but is there a "not" missing from the sentence as in "when the girls are NOT at my place"?
"I prefer you not put appointments in my calendar when the girls are at my place. I want to know what happens in D's life, however, I don’t want my calendar filled with appointments that I am not attending."
I read this to mean you only want her to put appointments in your calendar when the girls are not at your place and therefore appointments you're not taking them to, which is the opposite of what you mean, right? Or actually, what you mean is this:
"I prefer you not put appointments in my calendar. I want to know what happens in D's life, but you can just send me an email about those kinds of things." etc.
That way you're not getting all cranky about which specific appointments show up in your calendar when your ex really isn't meant to have access to your calendar at all. Stick with the big picture and you won't have as many smaller details to potentially miscommunicate.
I agree that you were killing too many birds in that email and should save Christmas for a separate one. It can go out soon, just that's a lot of topics to cram into one response to a simple question she asked about your calendar. It was overwhelming a bit.
Also, will your W understand what you mean by "you have some of my items, will you look into it"? If you want your [specific item] back, this doesn't explain what that item is. And "look into it" means, I don't know, scour the house and make a list for you? I really don't know what you're asking her to do about your items, will she? Do you think maybe you're trying so hard not to set her off that you're adding a layer of fuzziness over your words? What if you said, "I've been thinking my hockey stick and rice cooker are at your house and I'd like to pick them up next time I'm over there, do you mind getting them out for me?"
I hope Christmas works out the way you'd like. You plan ahead there!
Best,
Adinva
Those are the words I used, trying to help F say it a little nicer. Maybe I didn't do such a great job.....or maybe I missed something.
These are the words he was going to use about the calendar issue:
"Thanks for mail! I am better and next week the stiches goes out :-)
I don’t think you should put appointments in my calendar when the girls are at my place so please drop me a mail instead. I will be great if you send the appointments to me but do not expect me to accept them. I don’t want my calendar filled with appointments that I am not attending. I would very much like to see them so the thoungt is super – I want to know what happens in Ds life.
Also please avoid signing up the girls for regular stuff like gym or scout when they are at my place – without us talking about it first. I don’t think we should disappoint them unnecessary and if stuff can’t be done there is no need for them to know anything about it. I do hope you agree."
The way I understood it, his W wants to put appointments for the kids on his calendar for the days he has them. She has enrolled the girls in more than one activity (eating up his allowed child time) and which requires him driving them back & forth. She does not discuss it with him before doing it.
"I prefer you not put appointments in my calendar. I want to know what happens in D's life, but you can just send me an email about those kinds of things." etc.
I don't get it. I thought that was what was being stated. I was trying to help him from sounding cranky.
See? I don't get it either.....but maybe we have lost something in the translation?
And he does sound cranky lmao. If I was to get that email it would put me me in a scr*w you kind of attitude. But then again, I am not a WAS, so I have no idea.
I am not sure how to phrase that letter......perhaps, "Thanks for wanting to keep me involved with Ds when they are with you, I appreciate it. However, I am not comfortable with you placing appointments on my calendar and would prefer if you could just send me an email. Also, I am not comfortable with you being on my server, so let me know when you change it over, so I don't delete the account prematurely"
I mean, I would still be p*ssed but if deleting her from the account is something you feel is necessary for you and is not directed at making your W's life uncomfortable and a "so there" attitude, then you have to do it.
Maybe just one thing at a time lol
Sandi, Adinva, Kate’s - Ladies,
Thanks for caring about me! Waking up this morning and realizing that three strangers have cared for me while sleeping, makes my morning and whole day better.
Let’s take the easy part first:
Also, will your W understand what you mean by "you have some of my items, will you look into it"?
I send her a list august 22 and she told me that she would look into it. Sept. 15 I asked her again and she hasn’t responded to this at all. Knowing her I think she simply forgot and I believe she will understand.
I hope Christmas works out the way you'd like. You plan ahead there!
I know I am ahead but I need to be! I would love for the children to experience a Christmas with a lot of people. My mom and dad are dead and the rest of the bloodfamily and stepfamily is shattered into atoms. I feel asking my neighbors to have us over are almost intruding, but I need this sorted out quickly because it fills my head with unpleasant thoughts. If they turn us down I will need time to find another solution. I fear asking and I hate that I have to do it and that’s exactly why it should be done right away. I hope you understand me.
I mean, I would still be p*ssed but if deleting her from the account is something you feel is necessary for you and is not directed at making your W's life uncomfortable and a "so there" attitude, then you have to do it.
I never meant to come out cranky and to pi$$ her off but it is hard to ask her these things without doing exactly that. Something definitely got lost in the translation, but even if I fill the letter with hearts and smiley’s, the issues (exchange-server, money, her stuff, my stuff and Christmas) will still not please her and some of them will be quite inconvenient for her.
That’s the hard part these days! Standing my ground, doing what I believe is reasonable and fair and at the same time worrying about pushing her further away. Walking this thin red line down the middle between hate and love is a difficult task to me.
IMHO I have to look at us being D now and that fact is explanation enough to all off the points. She is my XW and she is not my friend! Even if she was my friend I wouldn’t allow her access to the exchange-server, I would still want my money and my things and so on. Problem is that the situation is reversed – she already has access so I am not about to turn down a request from her. I am about to take something away that she likes.
I need to find a kind and nice way to state my wishes and to make her see that I am not punitive or vindictive.
KP, you are straight to the point! This will to some extent make her life uncomfortable and it will come out as a “so there” attitude. It does hold a little of this, but that’s not the reason I want her gone from the exchange-server.
I was trying to help him from sounding cranky.
And you did! It is difficult for me to translate a letter like this. It holds small words that I don’t know, local phrasings and so on! What I got from the letter you wrote was a rewrite that made both my English and native letter less cranky. I get the points about the when, how and where from A and KP and believe they hold a good point about the technical issue in this.
And he does sound cranky lmao. If I was to get that email it would put me me in a scr*w you kind of attitude. But then again, I am not a WAS, so I have no idea.
I am not cranky and I don’t want to be
I don’t want to put W in that mood/attitude but I don’t know how to avoid it and I will not avoid asking her these things just because I fear her reaction.
I won’t send this mail today – it can easily wait a day or two or ten. Perhaps this is better on the phone or in person.
Thanks again for caring about me, my life and my sit!
F
The main point is that she should not have access to your personal calendar. And the very idea of her signing up the girls into more things to do WHILE THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO BE WITH THEIR DAD (which puts you spreading long hours in the car transporting them to some activity you didn't have a say about).
I mean, I would be very cranky if I had my kids for only a few days out of the month and my xs had the nerve to want to prearrange what we would do on my time. Frankly, I would be the one p!ssed that she even thought she should still have access to my personal calendar. But I realize I am not the most talented in how to state some issues. So maybe you can get a better idea from everyone's imput.
Well, it seems like some of the problems solved themselves!
W called this morning and wanted to talk about D6. D6 was sad this morning when W dropped her off at school and she had stated “Mom, I just want you – can’t you just pick me up in the weekend so the two of us can have a day for us” W and I talked a little about D6 not having stated any feelings and perhaps they are surfacing now. I can see and feel D6s hurt and I have asked her several times so I hope she will open up now – she needs to address this.
I didn’t comment on the statements from D6 but tried to look at the big picture, kept my tone soft and voice calm, but it hurt me! D6 is hurting and I feel it, and at the same time W just seems so cold and calm, but still pleasant and nice. She seems so totally gone and she is!
After this talk about D6 she asked if I had received her email about the appointments and I told her yes. Then she asked what I thought about it and I told her that I didn’t answer because I wanted to talk about the exchange server. I explained calmly that I don’t know how I feel about her using this and she quite quickly stated that she will move it. Then I told her that I appreciate her sending me notes about what the Ds are doing.
Finally I told her not to make appointment in “my” time and she stated that she haven’t done this. I used the gym as an example of this not being totally true. I told her that I didn’t want to disappoint the children and that I hope she understands. It seems like she did but only time will tell.
I came out a bit weak in regards of her moving the exchange account but otherwise the talk went well – primarily because three ladies posted a lot to me while I slept. So this time preparing an email made a hard talk on the phone a lot better.
The talk was calm, relaxed and somewhat serious. I ended up wishing her a nice day and she send greetings from MIL. A talk like this kills some of my hopes and I need them back – they keep me strong for now!
Total call time: 8½min.
Sandi, The main point is that she should not have access to your personal calendar.
Agreed, and I also agree to most of the rest in your last post. You are a strong woman with strong opinions and that comes through in your posts! Do keep it that way – it’s exactly what LBHs like me and many others needs. Do not doubt your wordings – I get you points and when I don’t I will ask you.
Still on the path set and one less issue to address
F
I didn’t comment on the statements from D6 but tried to look at the big picture, kept my tone soft and voice calm, but it hurt me! D6 is hurting and I feel it, and at the same time W just seems so cold and calm, but still pleasant and nice. She seems so totally gone and she is!
I know it hurts, my S almost always wants dad and always has (even when he was a little and most would want mom); however, if I look at it objectively I understand and I am grateful he has such a great R with his dad. D6 is young and hurting, it is natural for her to want mommy to help with the hurt and make it better.
Maybe W feels that way about you 'calm, but still pleasant and nice'. You do not know that she is totally gone, the ending is not determined.
LTH,
Maybe W feels that way about you 'calm, but still pleasant and nice'. You do not know that she is totally gone, the ending is not determined.
Thanks for the kind words!
I know the end is not determined and it properly won’t be for a loooong time.
I see my statement can be misinterpreted! I believe this is her present state of mind, when I hear her talking to me on a day like this! That can hopefully change somewhere in the future! A convo like this lessens my hope but I will get it back again until I can’t get it back anymore.
Thanks!
F
Your W may present a false self-confidence b/c she doesn't want to face the fact she has caused this pain for her little children. The activities she's trying to fill their lives with lately, is not what they are really wanting from her. They just want their mommy and daddy time.
When my adult child went through a M break-up, I saw his 5 yr old go through a terrible time. His W would call and ask him to go to her place to console their child. When he got there, he was left to deal with the child's questions of why he could no longer live with them. How do you explain to a little one that mommy is D daddy so she can M her affair partner? It has been over a year now, and she is still having a hard time adjusting.
Two more incidents today that I need to put on paper:When I went to pick up Ds bags W and Mil was there! It was quite nice to see MIL but once again I felt totally awkward seeing W. I gave them both a hug when I arrived. They were working on some shelves in the shed and W showed me this and made some comments about it. I answered and stated that I wanted to pick up the Ds. I was there less than 2 min.
I am not being jerkish or anything but inside I feel like a moron. I can’t explain this feeling but it isn’t pleasant. W is acting all right so this is all about me and even if she was a fool it would still be about me. I need to work on this.
I am not sure how much of this feeling she can read but she definitely has a picture of me not liking to hang around.
I went to pick up D6 and she seemed sad. She quite quickly stated that she misses W and we talked a little about it. I validated her feelings and told her that it is all right to feel this way and that ended it. Then we picked up D4 and she was just plain happy to see me. We went for a short walk and a hotdog and the off to girlscouting.
D6 didn’t want to attend – she started crying again, but this time she stated “I haven’t seen you for so long , dad – I want to be with you. Can I go shopping with you and D4” I spend 8-10 min talking to her and I tried the best I could to calm her down but I couldn’t so I told the leaders that D6 won’t be here today and off we went. I have talked with her two more times this evening about her feelings. She is hurting and she is trying to be brave! It is killing me!
I have called W and told her about the incident. She immediately shifted to this soft and caring voice stating that of course they will react to this. I kept the talk to the facts and after 3-4 attempts I managed to end the call within a few minutes.
So some day! The call in the morning, the meet up, and at last D6 crying. Add to this that one of the surgeon’s entry holes has caught a severe inflammation and my car broke down and you have the party of my day
The evening has been great. Lots of hugs, kisses and loving moments.
It nice to end a day like this in a good manner!
I am still feeling rather good - but sit is all over my brain!
Sandi,
Your W may present a false self-confidence b/c she doesn't want to face the fact she has caused this pain for her little children.
IMO she is just using and believing the normal WAW excuses. This is better for all, it will be hard but in the long run everybody will feel better and so on….and she believes it. She has to otherwise nobody would be able to witness things like this.
Until now this has been easy! The Ds have been exited over a new place to stay, new toys, new bikes and so on – but when the dust from all that settles the feelings will still be there. I believe that W until now and properly still has used Ds excitement to state “See, I was right – everybody is just happy! Even F is working his life and looking much better”
The activities she's trying to fill their lives with lately, is not what they are really wanting from her. They just want their mommy and daddy time.
Yes, and that surfaced today. This was the first time D6 let it out for real.
When my adult child went through a M break-up, I saw his 5 yr old go through a terrible time. His W would call and ask him to go to her place to console their child. When he got there, he was left to deal with the child's questions of why he could no longer live with them. How do you explain to a little one that mommy is D daddy so she can M her affair partner? It has been over a year now, and she is still having a hard time adjusting.
I am sorry you have had D so close several times. Do I recall it right that you have to children and both D.
The story about your sons XW calling and getting him to solve problems sounds heartbreaking. He must be a strong and caring man and farther. Any chance for R for them?
F
Sounds like real life is hitting your sitch for everyone involved. Inevitable at some point.
I think she will notice you don't want to hang around. She decided she didn't want H F in her life anymore. That is what she is getting.
I think you're doing great!
The inflammation is hurting more than the hernia did, so I look forward to seeing the doctor tomorrow morning. I am quite sure they will send me to the hospital and then drain it – I hope they will!
Otherwise a nice day!
When I dropped off D4 one of her friends mother asked if she could take home D4 this afternoon to play. That gave me a good chance to talk a little with D6 this afternoon but she has silenced up again. We still had a good time. When I picked up D4 the parents of her friends agreed to me having the friend over. Every time something like this happens I grow. Parent’s trusting me with their children makes me feel good.
One short text-interaction with W today.W (11.40AM): How is D6 doing today..?Me (03:04PM: That’s honestly a little hard to tell. I will keep you informed if something happensW (03:20PM): I understand it’s hard to tell..! But it is really good that she is starting to react. Maybe the many new things is settling in and making room for her reactions now.It’s a bit hard to translate and I think the original texts are a bit lighter than the translation. The new things is school, W moving, new friends and so on….
Ws point is obvious and it is good D6 is showing feelings - but W sure comes out cold to me.
Sounds like real life is hitting your sitch for everyone involved.
Oh, yes! I wish I could do something, to soften this on the children.
The story about your sons XW calling and getting him to solve problems sounds heartbreaking. He must be a strong and caring man and farther. Any chance for R for them?
She was having an A (don't know how long)and he was completely blindsided when she broke the news to him. I was seeing some signs that I was concerned about, but I had no proof. It was female intuition more than anything else.
No chance of R, she and OM are M. It is like so many cases I on the board. She wants H for a friend and OM for a lover. I only gave advice when he asked me (if you can believe that...
). Since then, they all get along fine. OM is good to the kids. Our youngest GD asked me why daddy and couldn't live with them (and step-dad). Very hard to explain!
I did warn him of cake-eating behavior I have seen from her, and the problems it could become. As to my knowledge, he took my advice and put her straight about a few things.
So, back to your stitch....I may stand completely alone on this idea, but I'll throw it out and you do what you want about it. I can't help but think your W plays up these activities to the girls (like scouts) and make it seem like so much fun. Of course, they will agree with her! It may be W's way of trying to distract them from the emotional pain....or maybe not, IDK. Obviously, D6 is not enjoying attending scouts as much as she wants quality time with her parents. You were very wise in not forcing her to attend the scouts when she clearly did not want to do it. That leads me to my point....I don't think "daddy time" should be spent in outside activities. It is adding emotional stress to D6, at least, and maybe the other one too. It's just too much for such young children. Their lives have been turned upside down. New "everything" and now mommy trying to put them in every extra event that comes along. It's crazy!
At some point, I think parents have to look very hard at things and ask if they are doing it for the kids....or themselves. Your W has more time with them than you do, right? So, and yet it is affecting D6 in a large way.
My son's youngest child told me something that made my heart nearly crack. Every time she tried to talk to her mother, she got pushed away and told her they would talk later. "Later" never comes. When she tried to talk to her school teacher, and Bible school teacher (and named over several other adults) that tried to tell them how bad she was hurting. They all pushed her aside b/c they didn't know what to tell her. That baby is in so much pain and doesn't know how to deal with it. It scares me to death to think of what she may turn to some day, as her escape and trying to deal with life. Why should she ask adults? It makes me so angry! And yet, I know why her mother pushes her away and puts off listening to her child. She's just like your W. She wants everyone to be just as happy as she is. She thinks everyone should be fine with her decision to break up the family.....and if not, oh well. She doesn't want to see the mess she has caused. How are children suppose to know what to do when we adults don't even know? No wonder our world is so screwed up!
Do I understand it? Yes, I understand my former DIL. I knew where she was coming from, emotionally. She's not an evil person. She's quite sweet and loving. I loved her like she was my own child. I recognized the look in her eyes the first time I suspected something was going on. Yet, I could not help. She was already lost in the A fog. She got a D and M the OM before the fog had time to lift (just like most WAW's want to do). Some day it will lift, and she will find herself in the same M all over again.
Sorry, I didn't mean to get off into my own stuff. I barely mentioned it on another thread or two. It was a very difficult time and I want you to know that even though I never went through a D with my H, I have certainly experienced it throughout my family.
The main point is that she should not have access to your personal calendar. And the very idea of her signing up the girls into more things to do WHILE THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO BE WITH THEIR DAD (which puts you spreading long hours in the car transporting them to some activity you didn't have a say about).
I mean, I would be very cranky if I had my kids for only a few days out of the month and my xs had the nerve to want to prearrange what we would do on my time. Frankly, I would be the one p!ssed that she even thought she should still have access to my personal calendar. But I realize I am not the most talented in how to state some issues. So maybe you can get a better idea from everyone's imput.
Agree exactly.....and you get your point across perfectly and I agree!!! I think that she stated it is the perfect opening for " oh by the way, get your own exchange....."
Kate, I think that she stated it is the perfect opening for " oh by the way, get your own exchange....."
Thanks – I guess I just got lucky. The rest of the item’s I need to address is still waiting and if I do not get lucky again I will have to move on these sortly!
Sandi, Our youngest GD asked me why daddy and couldn't live with them (and step-dad). Very hard to explain!
S10 has asked me the same question a few times and it is a hard one. It is all their hurts, wishes and dreams expressed in one little question.
My son's youngest child told me something that made my heart nearly crack. Every time she tried to talk to her mother, she got pushed away and told her they would talk later. "Later" never comes.
I see myself in this sentence and I hate to admit it! I have 180 this totally since BD and I simply feel good about it – still much to do but I am getting closer.
Sorry, I didn't mean to get off into my own stuff. I barely mentioned it on another thread or two. It was a very difficult time and I want you to know that even though I never went through a D with my H, I have certainly experienced it throughout my family.
Don’t be sorry! First of all I asked the question, remember? Secondly you have given me so much of your personal time and attention and therefore it is also nice for me to know a little about you. I try not to put any of my sit in other threads as well or at least as little as possible but do feel free to speak on my thread – all you want!
I can’t even imagine the pain I would feel if one of my children has to go through this later in life! Statistics say 1½ of them will and I if so – I will be there for them all the way through this! Your son is lucky to have a skilled and caring mother!
I may stand completely alone on this idea, but I'll throw it out and you do what you want about it.
I hope you will keep throwing your ideas or thoughts and I will listen every time!
In general I agree but I do not think GS and gym’s are the right examples. Ds have always attended something.
W is trying to make the best of the situation and IMO she has to. She is definitely trying to distract them! Things she used to hate like a trampoline in the garden, chocolate in the lunch box and fast-food is now implemented in Ds life.
It may be W's way of trying to distract them from the emotional pain....or maybe not, IDK
In short – I think you are right: she is trying to distract them , to show them how fun the “new” life is, how many things they can do because they now live in the city and so on!....and she is trying to show herself the exact same thing.
I do also think one of the reasons she wanted to put the Ds appointments in my calendar is for her to show me how much they are doing. She is also trying to show me that her decision was/is the best for everybody. She is seeking justification.
I have absolutely no picture about what or how much of this is going on at W place! I do not trust that W is telling me or anybody the whole and nothing but the truth. I don’t even believe she is doing that towards herself so I don’t talk with anybody about this.
And then again – I really don’t know anything. This is mindreading and I am not going to act on any of it.
I am just going to find my new best, in the role of a single father and that includes some of the same things. I have adjusted working hours, changed routines, put new things in lunchboxes, bought gifts, accepted more TV/Gaming time, redecorated their rooms and so on – so in fact I am doing the exact same things and the only difference is that I don’t feel like telling W about it.
I now have stated to W that I don’t want for her to make any appointments in “my” time and hopefully she won’t. She came down on me when I told her 6-8 weeks ago that D6 attending GS would be uncertain. I have taken her three times since then and the last one she didn’t want to go. She has talked a little about it again this morning but I can’t get inside her head and help her….perhaps in time!
I feel good but seeing the children hurt is killing me.
F
Great evening with the kids! These Fridays with all of them is a real joy.
I went to see the doctor this morning and they won’t drain the inflammation. If this should be done they will have to cut me open and that means hospital and surgery (light but still full anesthesia) once again. So Monday they will look at me again. I want this gone! It’s painful and I can’t do the things I normally can.
S10 caught the flu last night so I picked him up at 9AM and took the day off with him and picked up Ds earlier. I will try to do this more often if possible!
One little incident regarding W.
I called her number by mistake at 16.54 and didn’t realize it before her VM started and then I hung up.
She called back at 17:27, 17:29, 17:32, 17:45, 19:04, 19:57 and 20:31
I didn’t answer any of these calls. At first not on purpose but then I thought about it. Children are here so it can’t be that important and I just left the phone ringing.
After her call at 20.31 I was about to send her a text, but while writing I received a text from her “I can see that you have called today. I have tried on cell and landline since. What was it..? Have a nice evening”
I replied at 22.37: “Nothing important…D6 got an invitation to a birthday on the 6.10 from 10 – 13. I just thought it would be nice for you to put this in your calendar”
This incident made me recall several quarrels (nothing major) we have had during a long time about her not bringing her phone or not answering it. I know it isn’t nice but even though this wasn’t planned and just happened it didn’t made me feel bad at all. I am happy that I in fact got an invite today and therefore could send the last text but at the same time I have had quality time with my children and didn’t let the phone interrupt us. A friend also called and I didn’t answer that call as well.
Received a text from W at 8.35 as an answer to my text yesterday evening.
"I totally agree. Thanks. I thought something was wrong ;-) Enjoy the weekend and hugs for everybody"Smiley and hugs for everybody...WOW!!
I am not putting anything into this and then again even mentioning it I properly am
This is the first time it is not just hugs for the girls.
I won’t reply since no question asked.
Bond,
That’s totally all right! …and by the way: I totally agree!
I have been following the thread and reading the posts reminded me of Good Old England.
Feel free to post in my thread – hijack or not!
F
Weekend is almost gone and tomorrow Ds leave once again. We have talked a little about “missing” today and I have told them that this is completely understandable and all right.
I have also promised D6 to contact W and ask if she can stay here from Tuesday till Wednesday
It has been a nice weekend! I have been a little too tired properly because I have slept too little and because of the medication. I still feel I am getting better and better at this and I feel my love for the kids grow every time I see them.
That’s a nice feeling these days.
There has been no contact with W since the text yesterday. (Crazy sentence when trying to be dim but that’s the case!)
With the calendar/exchangeserver-thing solved I am considering sending W an email. It is hard to translate but I have tried. It is properly a little nicer in my native than it comes out in English.
Hey
I hope you had a nice weekend.
D6 has talked a little about missing a few times but otherwise she has been laughing and enjoying. She would like for me to pick her up Tuesday and I have promised her to talk to you about it. If it is OK with you I will do it and then drop her off at school Wednesday morning. You can just put some clothing in her schoolbag.
She has complained about some trousers and I have told her to talk to you about it. I did that the last time as well but it seems like she forgot.
I need to follow up on a few subjects and they follow below:
I regards of our talk about Ds appointments it is my understanding that we have agreed upon not booking anything in each other’s time without this being accepted.
Furthermore I understood that you will move your exchange account in nearest future.
I will adjust child support according to the mail from XX
I have deducted half the heating bill and thereby X from child support Y and I will transfer the difference.
Thereby I will also pay the bill.
If you disagree then let me know.
I have mailed you a couple of time regarding some items of mine that you have – will you please look into this soon?
Last a little about Christmas and New Year
We haven’t discussed this and it is properly best done on the phone but I will give you my thought and then we can discuss it next time we talk. I would like this clarified rather quickly.
I would like for the Ds and S10 to celebrate Christmas every second year and that means it is my hope that Ds can stay at my place for Christmas this year and at your for New Year. Next year we change.
I don’t believe switching on Christmas day (24) and first Christmas day(25) is good for the children.
S10 is home from 20.december till 27.december – properly with a short stay at XW1 since she would like to see him.
Ds are supposed to be at my place from 18. December, but if you would like to see then a day before Christmas that’s totally understandable and we can work it out so they can stay at your place 22. And/or 23. December.
We can switch on 2. Christmas day (26). That will give you a birthday morning every second year and a birthday evening every second year. We can also do the switch on 3. Christmas day (27) – that will give you a full birthday every second year.
According to plans we switch on 1. January. If you have plans we can work something out and if you would like for me to have them, just let me know.
Just my thoughts!
Talk to you soon!
F
Hi F,
Just had quick read of your letter. iirc your W was thinking that xmas was going to be spent together???
If this is the case and your looking for a completely different path (which I understand). Sending an email as wordy as this one might not be the best course.
If she is going to spew lava, the majority of the message will go unread and your reasonings and justifications ignored. It comes across as a lot of convincing.
I'm not saying don't send it. I'm just pointing out what I see.
Any thoughts about if she says no I want them xmas day?
T,
Thanks! It’s just me again! I just want it all done at once! You are totally on the same line as Kate, Sandi and Adinva. – I won’t send it but take it bit by bit over the coming weeks.
iirc your W was thinking that xmas was going to be spent together???
Yes she has mentioned this several times before she moved out. She also mentioned spending New Years Evening together with the friends we have done this with for the last 6-7 years.
I guess she is still on this path but I am not. Mindreading, I know!
Any thoughts about if she says no I want them xmas day?
Then I will have them next year and children won’t be able to spend Christmas together. Rules on this one here is one year at one place and then switch. I don’t believe she will do this – I even can’t imagine it but if it happens I will state my opinions and properly consider taking it to the gov. department.
I'm not saying don't send it. I'm just pointing out what I see.
Yes, you are
and after thinking once again – I totally agree! I need to change this behavior! I do this all the time with everybody!
Your points are taken – thanks a lot!
F
S10 is ill so I went to drop of the Ds this morning. These Mondays are hard on me. My feelings are on the outside of my body and I am not sure if I am able to hide it from the children.
After dropping the Ds off I went by Ws house to drop off the bags. Normally she is not at home but today she was. The door was open. I knocked and waited on the stairs. I didn’t enter.
When she came to the door she started out by asking if I am sick? (I know she has met up with mutual friends in the weekend and they have properly told her.)
I told her about the penicillin resistant Staphylococcus that doctors suspect I have due to the surgery. I kept it businesslike and answered her questions.
Then I asked about D6 coming here tomorrow and she agreed. I also told her about the trousers that D6 doesn’t like to wear – she have had the same experience and said she will do something about it.
I was just about to ask about the money-issue (the heating bill) or the things of mine that she have in her possession but then she asked:
“Shouldn’t we do something with the children together in nearest future?”
I hate to admit it but once again I was caught off guard so my answers weren’t that clear and I might have come out somewhat weak and indecisive.
I remember her statements quite clearly but not all of my answers. In fact I don’t believe I answered it all.
I stated 2-3 times that I will give it a thought.
I was much better at eyecontact this time.
I kept my voice low, slow and kind all the way through
I did keep my ground and she kept coming:
“We promised them that we would still be a family when we told them we wouldn’t be together anymore.”
“That’s what we promised them”
These came more than once
“We are parents - We have children together”
“I have seen them more with XW1 than with you and they enjoy themselves”
To this one I answered “I know since I see it when I have them”
“They see us ripped apart”
To this one I answered: “Well, isn’t that’s what we are”
She didn’t comment but I got her dragon eyes on this one.
“It’s been almost two months since they saw us together”
“It could be on neutral grounds if you don’t feel like coming here or having me come to your place”
“It could just be for an hour or so”
She also said something about the children hurting and thinking. I told that I think D6 is hurting but also that D4 isn’t that bad.
I guess it lasted for 8-10 min. in total.
I ended the convo by telling her that I had to return to S10.
At final she told me to think about it once again and come back to her.
I need to get back to her on this one. I guess I will just tell her, once again, that I do not believe this meeting up will do any good for the children right now.
I will wait a few days doing this and go over it in my head. I think she will come at me when I turn her request down.
Hi F, I wanted to respond to you here.
Labug,
Of course I would seek advice and help and of course everything is not nefarious (nice word by the way – had to look it up smile ) Everybody is doing that – and should!
In my somewhat inexperienced opinion, Ts wife have shown rather threatening behavior several times. She has tried to gain control by this. I read her words as somewhat different and thereby thought this was evidence of her being beyond threatening this time. With her history (sorry for attacking your W, T!) a lot of all this could be BS but if she is having counseling it properly isn’t.
I get your points and agree to them but I also do believe that Ts Ws history in communication should be taken into consideration every time she states something.
I think you and I have different a viewpoint.
When I go looking for something, I usually find it, positive or negative. So I try not to carry those negative intentions into interactions. I'm not completely there yet but I'm working at it and I know that having a positive intention can completely change the tenor of interactions.
I've seen many people here constantly wrapped up in what the spouse is doing or saying. We have no control over that. I find that it works best for me to be fully in control of me, which includes my responses and my boundaries. It then doesn't matter what the other person says or does if I'm true to myself and my boundaries I won't be bamboozled. (another good word)
Too often we want to blame others for what we have created through not being honest, not speaking our mind respectfully, not getting our needs met. We don't slow down enough to realize that what we dislike most in others is a shadow of ourselves. We might see others as gameplayers because we ourselves operate from that same place. Example, in the past I felt constantly judged because I was very judgmental and so assumed that everyone was. Having that mindset, I misinterpreted most everything people said as judgmental which made for some very poor R and a very unhappy me.
That was all me. That's why we need to focus on the only thing we can control.
Ourselves.
There's an old, but still very relevant, Pogo comic strip and the line is: We have met the enemy and he is us.
Figure out who you are, what you truly want, what you truly don't want and be honest with yourself and others; life will look very different.
F, I understand that you are trying to stay away from your W and make her learn to miss you, but I think if she continues to ask to spend time together and you continue to refuse that it will be detrimental to your sitch. The DB'ing approach is not to accept all offers, but to accept some and be too busy to accept others. DB'ing is not refusing ALL offers to get together. It sounds like there's some resentment building in your W over this issue. IE, she's not learning to miss you, she's getting angry. Remember cheeseless tunnels, monitor the results of what you're doing and if it doesn't work then try something else.
I agree with AS here,
The more you reject her it seems like the worse you become at it and she is put off.
I think it would help grease the wheels for your xmas plans also by accepting an invite. She might start thinking you dislike her as a person.
By all means get Sandi's input first if you want it.
AS, T
Thanks for your thoughts!
I understand that you are trying to stay away from your W and make her learn to miss you
I am also staying away to save myself. I am feeling so much better and stronger after she moved and especially after going dim (or whatever I should call since we speak several times a week)
I have been tumbling around for so long, but for the last six weeks give or take a day I am getting stronger every day.
It sounds like there's some resentment building in your W over this issue. IE, she's not learning to miss you, she's getting angry.
I shouldn’t try to mind read but I believe you are right. She is not spewing lava but she isn’t happy about this either. IMO her picture of life after BD cracked after I went dim and that’s why she is not happy.
Remember cheeseless tunnels, monitor the results of what you're doing and if it doesn't work then try something else.
Ohh, I remember – I looked so much for cheese for several months that I ended up seeing it everywhere
. I have been down this dim-road for 6 weeks now. Last time W and I did something together was aug. 13 when D6 started school. Since then we have talked several times (every second day or so in average) but only about Ds, finance and the subjects she have brought up. I have initiated a few talks but mainly to get to talk with the Ds.
This is IMO the first time anything has changed but if it is changing for the worse then that’s a potential problem. I don’t understand W or WAS nearly good enough to make this call. At the same time I am quite certain that she is only looking for time with children (cake) and not time with me.
The more you reject her it seems like the worse you become at it and she is put off.
Did I do that terrible today??
IMO it was a nice and calm talk. No raised voices. Dragon eyes once, but overall nice and pleasant. Normally I have felt so awkward around her – that feeling was much less today so I managed to do eye contact, listen better, seeming relaxed and so on. Not that I did good - only better.
I think it would help grease the wheels for your xmas plans also by accepting an invite. She might start thinking you dislike her as a person.
I can’t bring up the Christmas subject right now. Todays experience stalled that IMO.
This is hard on me, guys! I appreciate your advice so much and I understand what you are saying but it also confuses me about what to do. It seems like I am doing wrong every time I think I am doing right – I am not stating this as a little sad boy, but as a wondering man.
Thanks!
F
I would say your doing right a lot more than your doing wrong. Your doing exactly what you have been told to do.
Reading your journal it comes across to me like all she is getting back from you is eye contact, low voice and “Well, isn’t that’s what we are” and very little else.
Maybe it's the way you write down your interactions.
You still want to eventually R with W. Obviously you don't want her to eat cake but when she thinks back to all the in person interactions with you what is she seeing?
An interesting F she wants to be with or an F that can just bring himself to make eye contact and say 'no' or 'I will think about it' to everything. After show much it could be seen as punitive. It can be a fine line.
It comes across like she is leaning more towards resentment than she is missing you.
It's the interactions that sound like they are not building anything positive. Don't give her a slice of cake but at least let her smell the crumbs.
The ball is very obviously in your court in regards to doing something with W and the kids. You could literally create the rules and she would lap them up.
Sandi could come along tonight and say it's a load of rubbish. I'm just saying it as I see it from what I have read.
“We promised them that we would still be a family when we told them we wouldn’t be together anymore.”
“That’s what we promised them”
These came more than once
Is she correct? Did
you make that promise....or was it said by her?
“We are parents - We have children together”
Yes, she is clearly not happy that you have not been hanging out at her place.
“I have seen them more with XW1 than with you and they enjoy themselves”
To this one I answered “I know since I see it when I have them”
I would guess her point was more about them seeing W and XW1 together more than W & you together.
I hate to admit it but once again I was caught off guard so my answers weren’t that clear and I might have come out somewhat weak and indecisive.
I kept my voice low, slow and kind all the way through
She'll catch you off guard next time if you aren't on your toes (so to speak).
I have noticed you make references to keeping your voice low. I thought it may be due to my advice to LBH's tone of voice with the WAW. I don't want to confuse you when I make this statement. My point in telling men that advice, was whenever they were having a bad time of W running over them (bully tactics).....or if they needed to make a strong statement about what he would not tolerate, etc. Some men raise their voices, but it is when a man speaks with a lower tone/pitched voice that often is taken much more seriously than if he was yelling.
There are times that using a
softer tone is acceptable. If you are showing compassion, or when speaking over the phone about causal things(as you have been doing lately), or sometimes to help calm her if she was upset. However, there are times the LBH needs to project his voice with confident tones. A man can do it without anger or sounding as if he's yelling at his W.
I kept my voice low, slow and kind all the way through
I did keep my ground and she kept coming:
IMO, the only way you would have appeared weak and indecisive would be by using a timid, feminine soft, or whiny voice that stuttered around saying, "Well, I don't know what to do about it". Whenever you can't think of the right answer, do just like you did....and tell her you will think about it.
“It’s been almost two months since they saw us together”
“It could be on neutral grounds if you don’t feel like coming here or having me come to your place”
“It could just be for an hour or so”
She also said something about the children hurting and thinking. I told that I think D6 is hurting but also that D4 isn’t that bad.
Yep, she's feeling the results of you not being as available to her as you once were. The children probably say things about missing you, just as they say about her when at your place.
Now if you joined her in telling the children you would still be a family, then you are in a hard spot. On the other hand, if you kept quite and it was your W assuring the kids you would continue to be a family....then let me know. B/c we known from the first that she wanted family times (at her convenience, of course) and she wanted you to be handy if she had no other plans. So if she left you thinking everything would stay like always.....and you didn't tell her anything different (and I don't think you did), then things are about to get heated up.
Here's the concern; whether or not you made promises to the children. I for one, do not make promises to anyone. Children take the word "promise" very literal, and it does damage when those promises are not kept. So, do you remember what was said when the kids was given the news?
Your W is going to make you out to be the bad guy b/c you are doing what you promised. And even though I would like to tell you some goodies in how to respond to some of her statements, I'll try to wait till I hear from you about the promises.
“They see us ripped apart”
To this one I answered: “Well, isn’t that’s what we are”
She didn’t comment but I got her dragon eyes on this one.
She didn't like it b/c she knows who ripped you apart! But you handed the ball right back to her with that question.
“It’s been almost two months since they saw us together”
Perhaps you need to have a response in mind. Nothing hateful or punitive (intended), but honest and open. For an example, what if you said to her, "The kids
know we aren't together. They know we are ripped apart. That is why D6 is hurting.....b/c her parents don't live together......not b/c she's not seeing us meet up for a couple of hours.
“We are parents - We have children together”
"That is why it's called co-parenting."
Let me know about the promises, before I comment any further.
Sandi,
In short since I am about to join a videogame :-)
I do not feel like I made any promises. W stated that we are still a family when we told the children and I believe she will be right about this until death so I didn’t interrupt her at that point. We are a family but living under changed circumstances. There was no talk about doing things together.
I have made no promises about time together to her - as I recall it right now. I have absolutely NOT made any promises to the children.
Will be back later!
Looking forward to reading your post!
Thanks!
F
Hi Bond, it looks like he may have flew the coop, but I'll keep an eye open.
Thanks F. I am very glad to hear what you've said. Many WAW's will make it sound like both parents were speaking or making promises to the children...when in fact, it was the walk-away spouse doing the talking, trying to make things sound "good" and as if nothing would be changing.
T is correct in saying that you will soon want to accept an invitation to spend with W and kids. But we will get to that a little later. It may be tonight or tomorrow before I can reply.
Btw, the words you used to answer about you not making promises and it was mostly her doing the talking is not a bad response to give her....if she were to get too pushy or bossy about it. However, timing is everything!
T,
I would say your doing right a lot more than your doing wrong. Your doing exactly what you have been told to do.
Thanks and I try! Somebody once told that this would be the hardest thing …… that’s a fact!
Reading your journal it comes across to me like all she is getting back from you is eye contact, low voice and“Well, isn’t that’s what we are” and very little else.
To some point you are right! I am very withdrawn and looking at her as nosey neighbor. I keep it to money and children unless she asks. She hears a lot and mentions only a little but when she does I talk – otherwise I don’t. Every time she comes at me with something I stall and tell her I will think about it. Most the times because I will do wrong if I act immediately. I need time right now. I am only six weeks into this going dim and it’s a whole new ballgame.
You still want to eventually R with W. Obviously you don't want her to eat cake but when she thinks back to all the in person interactions with you what is she seeing?
An interesting F she wants to be with or an F that can just bring himself to make eye contact and say 'no' or 'I will think about it' to everything. After show much it could be seen as punitive. It can be a fine line.
Unfortunately I am still a mess around her and unfortunately I don’t believe interesting describes me around her. I understand what you are aiming at and I will get there in time. I would simply love to be the F I am around everybody else – but I haven’t succeeded in doing that yet. I was better today but there’s a loooong road in front of me. I was proud of the eye-contact thing today – that’s the first time in several weeks I was able to that. I felt good about today.
It is a fine line and it is hard to walk. I think – in Ws opinion – I am leaning a little towards not-nice, but that’s primarily when I tell her no to something. Funny thing is that every time I do this she turns and become very nice.
It's the interactions that sound like they are not building anything positive. Don't give her a slice of cake but at least let her smell the crumbs.
But how? - I simply do not feel comfortable and relaxed around her. On the other hand I do believe that a meet-up with children would be so much easier for me to handle. No dinner, no sitting down but just playing with them.
T, thanks for the kind and not so kind words – they all mean a lot to me!
F
Sandi,
I went through my journals and just to clarify:
“So, do you remember what was said when the kids was given the news?”
Approx. this:
W started out by telling that we are not going to live together anymore. D6 asked twice why and got the answer that we are not going to be sweethearts anymore…and then D4 said “That’s just like me and XX at kindergarten!” That made us all laugh and D4 should have some of the credit for how this went!
Then a short talk about the new house and some good things about this like school distance. D6 asked if she would get her own room and if she could bring toys. Then W asked if they would like to see the house and D6 told her no.
Some chit chats about the good parts in this and then some practical things about the moving.
We still love you, we are still a family and done deal in less than 5 minutes
.
WE, and thereby also I, have told the children that we are still a family but a different kind of family. W said the actual words to them as I recall.
It came out at the end of the talk-to-children. W and I had discussed this and I backed her up on this statement before the talk. I do not recall anything mentioned about spending time together. I am as certain as possible that this is a fact but then again – it was very emotional times, my head was spinning and confusion was total.
I don’t feel I have made any promises to her and especially not to the children.
I do not know whether to believe that she actually believes what she said today or if it was just intended to convince me by putting pressure and guilt on me. One thing is certain: When I told her that I didn’t want to meet up first time on the phone and told her that we shouldn’t be friends she answered “I thought this would come but it still doesn’t please me” (Hard to translate!)
IMO (and this is mindreading!!) she has built up a picture in her head about the happy future living apart. How we would still do happy-family-things and so on. When this is combined with all the happy-stuff we in fact did during the five months from BD till she moved out, everybody around us telling everybody how fantastic we did it, telling the children that we are still a family, me being kind and pleasant (when not pursuing) - I can understand why she thinks promises were made.
Children’s hasn’t once mentioned that we don’t meet up and they normally keep their books as you mentioned.
At the same time I believe they are doing just fine at the moment. D6 is hurting and they are all confused – but look what they are going through! I do NOT believe in happy-family-times. It will just rip the wound open once again when we part. Time will hopefully heal it. W knows that’s my belief because she has been a part of discussing how to handle S10. XW1 and I have done family times a few times a year plus birthdays.
So please continue like I have made no promises – I have no problems looking myself in the mirror or my children in the eyes.
F
If it were me, I wouldn't do anything until things are finalized. You are NOT a family anymore, your W has made sure of that. All kids hope their parents get back together. I talked at length with a child counselor in my first D, and she said often times kids will wish for that subconsciously even when the mom and dad are both re-married. My XW1 and I only spend time together at things like school plays or sport events.
By doing things as a "fake family", you're only going to give them false hopes, especially D6 as D4 may be a bit too young to understand completely. W just wants to have this happy pretend life where the kids are OK and she doesn't have to feel badly.
Just my two cents.
It is a fine line and it is hard to walk. I think – in Ws opinion – I am leaning a little towards not-nice, but that’s primarily when I tell her no to something. Funny thing is that every time I do this she turns and become very nice.
Being nice is all she has to return your volley, if she gets nasty your gonna walk away.
It's the interactions that sound like they are not building anything positive. Don't give her a slice of cake but at least let her smell the crumbs.
But how? - I simply do not feel comfortable and relaxed around her. On the other hand I do believe that a meet-up with children would be so much easier for me to handle. No dinner, no sitting down but just playing with them.
T, thanks for the kind and not so kind words – they all mean a lot to me!
F
I think a meet-up if your comfortable with that would be the next step. Like Sandi says you will be coming to that soon.
No problem F, I know you prefer us to shoot straight from the hip!
Sorry I'm just getting back to the subject at hand. I'd like to respond to a few statements made by others, in hopes of clarifying your recent actions.
You thought carefully before deciding to back off and go "dim" with your W. You started doing it, and have held back b/c of my advice. Once you actually turned down one of her invitations, you were pleasantly surprised by how you felt about it. Then, you realized you were becoming stronger during the period of absence with your W.
There has been something I've been watching closely. I've seen how it has become easier for you to not see her face to face. However, I am concerned you may have come to a point of wanting to
avoid her...hoping to bypass conversations where you are not confident in answering her questions.
That is one reason I addressed the tone of voice to use when talking to her. You have said several times that you are careful to speak in a low voice, but when I read where you've had difficulty making eye contact for a significant period...that concerned me. IMO, a man cannot present himself in a confident, manly manner if he cannot hold eye contact. There are several negatives related to not keeping eye contact. A lot of people who lie cannot look you straight into your eyes....and
hold contact. An indecisive person usually has trouble holding eye contact. A shy, timid, non-confident person can't do it. It is hard to take a man seriously if he can't hold eye contact. So, that is just a few examples of why it's important for you to overcome this problem you have with her. I believe it is b/c you feel so unsure and are afraid of making a mistake that it is hindering your progress. You even said that you didn't have a problem with other people, yet you feel awkward around your W.
F, I understand that you are trying to stay away from your W and make her learn to miss you, but I think if she continues to ask to spend time together and you continue to refuse that it will be detrimental to your sitch.
Your W (F's W) does need to miss you, however that is only part of the reasons I had for you to back off from accepting her invitations. She had a highly unrealistic view point of what life after the breakup would be. She was one of the biggest cake eaters I've seen, and she wanted her largest slices of cake from "family time". So, the point was not only to present the opportunity for her to miss you, but to show her that life is not the same for the family after the breakup. As long as you were doing all these family nights together (or whatever she wanted to do), why would she ever see that her plan to leave you was not good? If she continued to have more of the same...then why would she change her direction?
I have expressed MHO's about the buddy-buddy system after S and how it can easily cause the state of limbo to continue....b/c the WAW is living on cake. She has to see her way was not the best way. It's
not fun. It's
not the same as being together. And, the family
is ripped apart....thanks to her decision.
I had hoped that you could hold out until she invited you to meet with her, without the kids. But, she was not asking to spend time together (just the two of you). She was wanting the kids to
see the two of you together for a few hours. She wanted fake family time. Again, she has an unrealistic view that if the kids can believe you all are still one big happy family, then they won't be sad.
The DB'ing approach is not to accept all offers, but to accept some and be too busy to accept others. DB'ing is not refusing ALL offers to get together. It sounds like there's some resentment building in your W over this issue. IE, she's not learning to miss you, she's getting angry.
Yes, she is beginning to get angry. I told you to expect it. However, (as I have already pointed out the reasons)...if she is not seeing you as a confident man who is busy spending time GAL, then you are not gaining ground by declining her invitations. If she sees you in any other light other than a free, attractive, happy, confident man...(who has been unavailable to her)...then, you aren't accomplishing your goal. See what I mean? You need to be all those things.
When I read AS's post and put it together with what T said, I felt even stronger toward there being a possibility of you not getting a clear picture or message to her. If she sees you happy in life without her....that's fine. But if she doesn't see it....and thinks you are stumbling around trying to find an excuse not to be around her and the kids, then she will be too angry at the wrong message you are giving her. And therefore, the purpose behind all of this will be lost.
Originally Posted By: T1000
I think it would help grease the wheels for your xmas plans also by accepting an invite. She might start thinking you dislike her as a person.
FWIW, I don't think it would cause her to question you not liking her as a person. I do agree you need to grease the wheels (which was a good point).
I can’t bring up the Christmas subject right now. Todays experience stalled that IMO.
We are going to prepare for that subject now.
I appreciate your advice so much and I understand what you are saying but it also confuses me about what to do.
You may receive advice that does...or does
not agree with me. Don't let it bog you down in fear of doing the wrong action, b/c you'll end up just avoiding everything. If you are guided by fear instead of confidence, she will not respond in a good way.
Reading your journal it comes across to me like all she is getting back from you is eye contact, low voice and “Well, isn’t that’s what we are” and very little else.
Maybe it is a matter of interpretation, b/c I read it as a good answer.
The ball is very obviously in your court in regards to doing something with W and the kids.
I will agree......if you won't let all of this get you confused again.
Since she said it could be at your place or "anywhere", why don't plan to have them over to your house. You have made a lot of changes around there since she's left. I think it would be a good time to let her see. Don't point anything out to her. Trust me, she'll notice everything that's different.
Plan it so that it doesn't look like you've gotten into a sweat over the thought of her being at the house. You want to look like a man in charge! Do not make it appear more than what it is...an evening with the kids. Keep it rather short and simple. See how it goes.
Do not bring up the subject of Christmas on the day/night you plan to have them over for fake family time.
Do not discuss anything serious, if she doesn't bring it up. But if she
should say something in front of the kids about "still being a family" or stuff like it, then you'll need to plan on a firm chat with her without the children around. Maybe not right then, but soon afterwards. She needs to get things straight about the situation. But the important thing to remember is not to appear as if you don't know what to think or say. You are man who knows his own mind, and you have a purpose and a plan. Act and speak with confidence!
Sandi,
There has been something I've been watching closely. I've seen how it has become easier for you to not see her face to face. However, I am concerned you may have come to a point of wanting to avoid her...hoping to bypass conversations where you are not confident in answering her questions.
IMO, a man cannot present himself in a confident, manly manner if he cannot hold eye contact. There are several negatives related to not keeping eye contact.
Act and speak with confidence!
I have this eye-contact, self-confidence, awkward feeling/problem around her and her only!
I am a happy smiling guy and since I finally understood the GAL-issue some time ago I feel I have done quite well in this area. It hasn’t been that much the last 3-4 weeks but that’s mainly because of the surgery. I have changed my exterior quite a lot: New haircut, new teeth and new style in clothing. I am working me and feeling good about it.
….but you are still totally right: I need to be able to show her a confident man, living and enjoying life as a man and as a farther! The best about this is that this is who I strive to become and the worst part is that I still have to act-as-if in several matters especially around her.
I am trying to avoid her! I do not feel good around her! Last time was the best since LRT started.
I totally agree on the eye-contact! A part of my job is coaching sales-people so I do get you but the confidence is my problem! The better I understand all of me, all of this and my sit the more confidence I built and I will get better in time.
I had hoped that you could hold out until she invited you to meet with her, without the kids.
Just tell me to hold out– then I will!!
I have no problem turning her request down and just add patience.
She is building up steam these weeks but I am not afraid of her or her reactions and at the same time it will be easier for me to hold this for a while longer. I am still getting stronger every day and I hope to be rid of the bacteria in 10 days or so. Then I can start exercising and stand taller. (I am not well at all! Tomorrow they will properly judge if I need a second surgery)
“Well, isn’t that’s what we are”
I felt good about this one as well – I have been walking eggshells for so long and it felt good to just state my opinion in one simple sentence. No validating, no carefulness, no nothing – just my true and honest opinion. I wasn’t trying to put her down or anything – it just came out of me because that’s how I feel and interpret the situation. I was totally natural stating this and that also made me feel good. When I left her place I even caught myself thinking that I need to this a little more often.
Yes, she is beginning to get angry. I told you to expect it. However, (as I have already pointed out the reasons)...if she is not seeing you as a confident man who is busy spending time GAL, then you are not gaining ground by declining her invitations. If she sees you in any other light other than a free, attractive, happy, confident man...(who has been unavailable to her)...then, you aren't accomplishing your goal. See what I mean? You need to be all those things.
You sure did tell me and I am expecting that! The part you wrote about her being a MAJOR cake-eater is so obvious to me now. I understand it, I believe I see the why, the how and it all. That’s a good feeling because this takes away confusion and that a major enemy to me (and something I will have to work on). I need to understand before I can act with confidence – that why I have turned into this little babbling boy around her! What I need is to put the focus 100% on me and I am getting closer and closer towards this these weeks.
I haven’t told her anything about what I have been up to – but she knows a lot! Mutual friends and children’s keep her informed.
I do see what you mean and I am working hard on all issues. I feel I have grown a lot, but I still have A LOT of work to do!
You may receive advice that does...or does not agree with me. Don't let it bog you down in fear of doing the wrong action, b/c you'll end up just avoiding everything. If you are guided by fear instead of confidence, she will not respond in a good way.
I think the fact that others chime in on this is so good for several reasons. It gives different perspectives, new ideas, new thoughts and so on – but at the same time it challenges the path I have chosen and every path should be challenged. As I see DB/DR they can be interpreted in a lot of ways – the big lines are pretty solid but from there on you have to choose. All the caring people in here are on the same big line but all have their personality, their beliefs, religion, experience…etc… that’s one of the reason this forum is a darn good place to be!
I will make my own calls but as I have already told you I am following your advice pretty strictly until I tell you otherwise and I am not even close to being there! I am not guided by fear but I am moving ahead with caution and patience.
Since she said it could be at your place or "anywhere", why don't plan to have them over to your house. You have made a lot of changes around there since she's left. I think it would be a good time to let her see. Don't point anything out to her. Trust me, she'll notice everything that's different.
I ask this because I am not! I understand what AS and T wrote but I am not sure this is the time. Last time I saw her and children was on aug. 13 for breakfast. She has asked several (6 +/- 1) times since then about us doing something together. I told her that we couldn’t be friend’s aug. 21
If I get back to her and tell her that I do not believe this is the time for a get-to-gether she will properly get angry. I am not out to make her angry or pi$$ her off but to me – right now – that’s her feeling to deal with. I am feeling better and better every day and I still don’t believe this will do the children any good right now. They are adjusting right now and family time will risk setting them back!
Writing this – I feel like stating exactly this to W! (W, I don’t think this is the time for a get-to-gether! The children are adjusting to their new life and right now I fear the risk of setting them back. She will ask why and try to argue!)
I will still follow your advice but this one I need to understand this! Why now?If it should be done then I do not feel like her coming to my home yet! This is my home but it doesn’t look like that yet. It is true I have done a lot but I still need to do more! As an example the old tag with our names is still on the door. I have ordered a new one but delivery is 4-6 weeks so still 3 or so to go. I am also working heavily on some old oak-planks turning them into table and shelves in the kitchen!
At the same time you have to know that the changes I made are for me! She will hate several of them!
If we are to meet up I would like to do it on neutral grounds and with a deadline meaning that something will happen and break up the party after a certain amount (few hours) of time. It could be a meet up on a Wednesday before D6 attending GS. It could be a café with cake and hot drinks or something like that. A movie on a Saturday afternoon and then home (alone) for dinner. I could tell her to find a good movie and we could see it all together at the cinema.
Christmas
We are going to prepare for that subject now.
What to do?
I need to do something about this matter as soon as possible. It is blowing in the wind right now and that means I can’t make any appointments – I want this dealt with. I am not certain how W looks at this anymore – but she has stated several times that we should spend Christmas evening together. I even think she stated her staying here over night from 24 to 25 – long time ago. Same goes for New Year.
Finally I want you to know that I get your points about the low voice.
Thanks
F
F,
I think you are doing an amazing job. And I love Sandi's advice. It seems to me since you are still recovering from your surgery and not knowing exactly where you stand there with some complications, that you could put off a time of meeting with her due to your physcial recovery. I really think some time is warrented for you to feel better physically and your W should understand this.
Right after my D was finalized, I did not want to see or have any contact with my H. I felt ok about that because it was about my own needs. I am just now at two months out allowing myself to have some exposure to him. And I am caustiously allowing this and testing it somewhat. I understand the whole idea that you don't want to let too much time go by or too many opportunities for interaction with her to pass before you extend yourself a little, but man, you did just go through a major surgery and you need to be at the top of your game physically and mentally when you interact with her.
I'm having the same dilemma with the Christmas arrangements as you and feeling some pressure about an advanced game plan, even thought my boys are much older than your children. It is hard. The balance of what is best for the children, and what is healthy for you and not indulging the cake eating WAW spouse who just wants everything to be fine. Just know that you are not alone in this. I am not sure there is any perfect plan that will cover it all. Stay the course. You are doing really well in your work. You have the attention of great support.
Back56
W sent me two emails yesterday evening.
I didn’t see them until this morning and I haven’t replied.
First one at 19.45 is a picture of her hand hold a drawing that D4 made. Only text is “Goodnight from D4”
Second one at 19.47 is a picture showing a small note reading only “DAD”. It is Ws handwriting and D4 has drawn a little on it. Only text in this mail is “One more goodnight :-)”
Labug,I think you and I have different a viewpoint.
I agree, but please note that this doesn’t mean for me not to respect you and your viewpoints.
I also do believe that there is some misinterpretation in this!
That's why we need to focus on the only thing we can control.
I am not even close to the place where you are but I am moving towards a place where the doings and sayings of W affect me less. This doesn’t mean that I don’t or won’t try to understand her feelings, motivations, reasons and doings and at the same time adjust somewhat in regards of these. I do that with my children, friends and everybody!
I don’t see this as getting wrapped up in what she is saying or doing. Furthermore I do not think that looking at her motives, reasons etc. is me trying to control her. I see it as me trying to gain an understanding that will make me able to make a better choice or decision. What I am saying is that the environment around a decision influences the decision…that’s all!
We might see others as gameplayers because we ourselves operate from that same place.
I understand your view on this point is different than mine. I see many of the things I DBing as playing a game: We talk about DB being counterintuitive, the game of pursuer/distance, keep up the PMA all though feeling otherwise, GAL all though you feel like staying at home and so on. I see this as acting or gameplaying – but if this is done with heart and soul I do not see anything wrong in that. Hopefully it will sink in and become a natural part of the gameplayer/actor.
I do not see this as negatives – I see it as trying to gain an understanding of the dynamics in a D or R and how it affects us and then act accordingly to this, but still within our own boundaries, beliefs, values and so on.
The above doesn’t imply that I am trying to manipulate or control something or anybody – I know you will be able to interpret it as that, but that’s not the meaning of my words.
When we find ourselves in this situation at first we all look for the magic wand – that’s the tool of manipulation or control. Afterwards we realize that this is not to be found and we start the work! That’s where I am right now! I am working me but still looking at my surrounding’s: kids, W, friends, family and so on!
I realize that I properly won’t understand that much ever, but I will still search because the searching itself still provides knowledge and clarification.
We have met the enemy and he is us.
Understood and agreed upon – but I don’t see this applying to the above.
I don’t know if I misinterpreted your post (or perhaps you interpreted my post in Ts thread in another way that I intended when I wrote it) but I do read it as you saying I am trying to control, that I am playing games in a negative way and that the enemy is within me. I do see it otherwise and hope the above explains my POV.
It is hard for me to explain this in short and in English so let me finish by stating that I respect you and your POV deeply and I will remember your words.
JonF,Thanks for the 2 cents.
It seems like we have the same perception. I have seen a lot from S10 during the years and I think deep down he still hopes for me and XW1 to get together.
It is hard on them and it’s for life!
Back56,YES – I do have the attention of great advice! I wouldn’t say major surgery – just surgery and I am recovering.
Thanks for the kind words.
I have been concerned you were rushing the initial recovery time necessary after surgery. Now there might be a second one? Please do not plan any excerise before discussing it with your doctor and what type to do until you have completely healed.
"I think the fact that others chime in on this is so good for several reasons. It gives different perspectives, new ideas, new thoughts and so on – but at the same time it challenges the path I have chosen and every path should be challenged"
But when you respond to different advice/opinions by saying it confuses you, then I get concerned. As you have told me more than once, you need to understand the whys and how's to do to it. Even though there are some things I may not know how to explain to your satisfaction, this is your life and the decisions are yours to make.....in everything. And I agree that others chiming in does give different perspectives, which is good as long as it doesn't mess with your mind to the point of not knowing which way to go. We all need to hear what others have to say and then each of us make our own decisions.
"So forth everything has turned out more or less exactly as you predicted but are you absolutely sure this should be done now?"
No, I am not absolutely sure.
"I will still follow your advice but this one I need to understand this! Why now?"
B/c it has been seven weeks.......averaging about one invitation & rejection per week, but mainly b/c of your plans for Christmas. The closer the time gets to December before you accept an invitation, the more likely she will feel you set her up just to spring your request to get the kids for that holiday. If my H did that to me....I would be more than furious! This would be like cutting off your nose to spite your face! You have already said you will have to wait longer, now, before saying anything about Christmas. Your time will be getting too short too quickly and you will find yourself in a very bad spot.
You know she is going to be upset when you tell her you do not plan to share the holiday with her (which I agree), but if your timing is off, it could backfire and you be set back in your journey. Remember, just a very short time ago, you could not bear the thought of going through Christmas any differently than the past years with her. She is still under the impression it will be the entire family gathered around the tree Christmas morning.
It is one thing for her to get upset the you are rejecting some weekly time with her and the kids.....but it is another matter when it all snowballs into a huge mess at the end of the year and you don't understand what you did wrong. Timing, F, good timing is everything!
The reason I suggested your house is b/c she needs to see those little changes. You want to have the entire place fixed, when all that's necessary is for her to notice the names have been removed from the door. In fact, it would probably have more impact than the flooring changed, IMO. However, it's fine if you want to choose another place. I do think something with a planned beginning and ending is a good idea.
Please take care of yourself and get well very soon!
"Yes, she is beginning to get angry. I told you to expect it. However, (as I have already pointed out the reasons)...if she is not seeing you as a confident man who is busy spending time GAL, then you are not gaining ground by declining her invitations. If she sees you in any other light other than a free, attractive, happy, confident man...(who has been unavailable to her)...then, you aren't accomplishing your goal. See what I mean? You need to be all those things."
F, when I read this it puts a picture in my mind. Have you ever met someone (guy or girl) and you think "wow, Insould really like to get to know this person better", or you see someone, or a few people, that seem like they are so happy and having so much fun you want to be with them even if you don't really know them?? That's what you want to leave W with every time you see her!
I agree with lovethehub's comments. The second paragraph stikes a chord with me based on an experience I have had recently. Through my work contacts I have recently met a woman who exudes a PMA. And while being female myself and not drawn to a female sexually in any way, I would love to be around this person more because of the energy and positive vibs she gives. I had a meeting with her today and thought, wow, I want to be more like her and would love to live my life with her exuberance and positive aura. She is a person who draws people toward her and those who have the privilege of the encounter are richer for it. That's what I want to be with or without my husband. I want to get to know this woman and would love to have some time with her. That being said, it's not about being a positive upbeat person to draw others in.......it's more about being stellar for ourselves. That is SO rewarding and subsequently attractive to all we encounter. Sorry.....on a roll.
I replied to the two emails from W yesterday evening:
Hi D4
Thanks for sending me those fine drawings – I got very happy when I received them
I hope you have had a nice day and that you played well with rest of the owls – uh uhhhhh :-)
Dad(Her group at kindergarten is called ”the owls”)
Sandi,I understand what you are saying about the importance of timing but converting this into actual doings is hard. I believe it is the lack of experience but I will pay more attention to this from here on.
I have been concerned you were rushing the initial recovery time necessary after surgery. Now there might be a second one? Please do not plan any excerise before discussing it with your doctor and what type to do until you have completely healed.
If they decide to drain the infection I will be back in full anesthesia and cut open once more. I was at the doctor yesterday (I have to see them every second day) and they are quite pleased with the healing so right now it looks like I will be able to avoid a second surgery. If healing continues this way I will properly be able to exercise in two weeks.
I try to follow advice from doctor but I have a hard time doing nothing.
But when you respond to different advice/opinions by saying it confuses you, then I get concerned.
I can see why with my history – my fault, sorry! The confusion isn’t anything like it used to be! I will stick with your advice and just keep doing what we have agreed upon.
However, it's fine if you want to choose another place. I do think something with a planned beginning and ending is a good idea.
I will follow your advice and invite W to my home on Saturday afternoon around 3PM. I have a cardgame with some local guys in the evening so W will have to leave before dinner. That means three hours max.
I will make the house and myself look nice without going over the top! Having GAL means a good excuse for me to be in nice clothes and so on.
I will focus entirely and totally on making this afternoon a joy for the children. Boardgame, waffles and so on, but I will stick with normal things.
If she declines/can’t make it – and some part of me hopes she does – I will stall on making another appointment right now.
I will call her tomorrow and invite her. When I do that, I will also ask her to bring the items of mine that she has in her possession and possible bring up the bill she will have to pay.
LTH,I am so happy for you! Reading your thread makes me smile!
F, when I read this it puts a picture in my mind. Have you ever met someone (guy or girl) and you think "wow, Insould really like to get to know this person better", or you see someone, or a few people, that seem like they are so happy and having so much fun you want to be with them even if you don't really know them?? That's what you want to leave W with every time you see her!
Yes, I have met these people and I believe that at the time I met W I was one of them – that’s a long time ago!
I totally get the picture of the man I have to show W. It is not the understanding that will be the problem – it is the doing! I am not even close to feeling like this guy so I will have to act it out and that’s a hard mission. I feel like I am getting closer being this guy (and I want to!!!) but when he is combined with the friendly neighbor and XH stating boundaries it is surely a fine line. I am trying to adjust my self-image towards this every day.
Back,.it's more about being stellar for ourselves. That is SO rewarding and subsequently attractive to all we encounter
Well said!
W called today at 11AM and told me about D4 visiting the doctor for a routine vaccine.
When she was done I tried to end the call but she asked about my surgery. I explained how I am doing and ended the call afterwards.
Talk was nice and light. She was very talkative. Lasted 3-4 min.
I just keep on being the nice neighbor. I have increased my comments and questions slightly.
I also met up with a friend that had met W earlier today. She had mentioned to this friend about her hopes for me, her and the children to meet up more than we do. She stated something like "I know I am the one who left but still.....". This is a very distant person to her but quite close to me.
I asked him about what she said and then it hit me that there is no purpose to this. I can’t do anything about it and me knowing won’t change anything what so ever and if so, properly for the worse. I won't go down that road again.
It’s still a little annoying that she is picturing me as being the bad guy, but that feeling will be gone tomorrow.
I will follow your advice and invite W to my home on Saturday afternoon around 3PM.
It was just a suggestion. If you are not ready to have her over, then plan to meet for refreshments somewhere....or some of your other ideas you had.
I received a text from W around 8AM this morning telling me that D6 was ill (nothing major, just a stomach ache) and staying at home. I didn’t reply but called 3-4 hours later to hear how she was doing and to talk with her. D6 actually came to the phone this time and we talked for a short while.
At this time I didn’t feel like inviting W over so I didn’t.
I have been working some wood all day but in the afternoon I drove to town to get groceries and at the supermarket I ran into W and D6. D6 saw me first and came running so I just sat down and hugged her and talked a little. Then I stood up and gave W a loose hug and a smile. Back on the floor talking further with D6. I told her that I had been considering to pick her up this afternoon and do something with her since W was working at home. (Properly not that smart but I had been thinking about it and it just flew out my mouth) She immediately replied that she wanted to go with me. I had to tell her no since she and W was on the way to pick up D4 and then home for dinner and the Friday evening routine. She asked 2-3 times more if she could come home with me and then I said: “No, but you can take mom and D4 tomorrow and then we can make hot buns and lemonade and enjoy ourselves for some hours”
Then a few minutes more talking and then W picked up and asked if it was at 3PM and we agreed on that. Major goodbye hug to D6 and a big smile to W and then I left.
So it is arranged!
I felt good at the meet up today. Better eye-contact, smiling and so on – but not that much focus on W anyway.
It was just a suggestion. If you are not ready to have her over, then plan to meet for refreshments somewhere....or some of your other ideas you had.
I know! But I have been thinking about it and I don’t think I will be ready for this soon. I will have to face this sooner or later.
W called three times in a row around 2PM. I called back and she asked if they could come earlier since they had planned to visit neighbors but they were not at home.
They arrived at 2.15PM
We baked some buns, did homemade lemonade, D6 cut some flowers in the garden for me, harvested a few carrots, W and D6 played a little while I fooled around with D4, played a videogame all four together and much more….they left at 5.30PM
It was a nice time but there’s an elephant in the room and it’s big.
D6 was crying a lot when they left. She said it was because she didn’t win the videogame but I felt there’s more to it. Either she was tired or just sad about leaving.
D4 told me that she missed me as they left!
The awkward feeling was there at first but much less than usual and almost gone when they left.
It was great to see the Ds and I kept my focus almost entirely on them.
W said she thinks the house looks great and wanted a tour, so I gave her one.
She was very positive and enthusiastic all the time.
When they left she asked the girls if it had been a good time and when they said yes – she said that she thought so as well.
I didn’t hug W when they arrived but she positioned herself so I practically ran in to her when they left. (This is exactly what I did at first in sit – it was like observing myself
)
We haven’t discussed anything but children.
She did tell me about some things she wants to do with them and things they have done.
Except the goodbye hug there has been no touching at all.
I do not read anything into her sayings and doing except her wanting more cake.
I believe I was able to keep a high PMA – I have been laughing and smiling a lot. My eye contact still s!cks but it is getting better. I haven’t asked W about anything but the subjects she have brought up and I haven’t initiated anything but children’s-talk.
Writing this I am hurting because it is so obvious that children are supposed to have two parents around them. At the same time I love this woman and it drains me to act this way around her! I just feel like giving her the biggest hug and sitting close to her in the sofa for the entire evening.
I am tired and exhausted right now.
W texted me 15 min after they left
“Thanks for a nice afternoon. They both fell asleep in the car :-)”I didn’t reply to this one.
I will rest for an hour now and then I have GAL to attend.
F, just a short note. I think you are still handling all this sitch in the right way and doing it very well. It does seem you W still needs you in her life, she just doesn't know how much and how to go about it.....yet.
You are still so lucky to have her around and contacting you. Look at the other end of the spectrum.
You sound like you are doing good F. The family time went well by the sounds of it. Yes it was hard and wasn't natural but you will get used to it.
Sounds like W maybe saw part of a life she used to have/could have and that is a good thing.
Today has been a bad day!
I was at a cardgame until 3AM last night. Fun and good!
W called me once to ask about a password for something.
I woke up late today and I have been doing nothing for the whole day. I have been missing my family and W so much today and the get-to-gether yesterday properly tricked this.
I am mindreading and focusing on everything but me today. I have been feeling like calling W! I feel like doing all the things I am not supposed to do! I won’t do them! I won’t backslide.
Tomorrow is a new day and I will get my grips back!
I have spoken to S10 today and we will go to the cinema Tuesday. I will text W later and ask if I can pick up D6 as well.
You are still so lucky to have her around and contacting you. Look at the other end of the spectrum.
I understand what you are saying and I do try to look at it this way – still hard seeing her! She just seems shut down and gone!
You sound like you are doing good F. The family time went well by the sounds of it. Yes it was hard and wasn't natural but you will get used to it.
Sounds like W maybe saw part of a life she used to have/could have and that is a good thing.
Today is not a good day but tomorrow will be!
I hope yesterday was good for the Ds and hopefully the sit because right now I do not see it as being good to me. I guess I will now go back to declining invitations and just stay on my path.
Thanks guy’s – for being there!
Just typical rollercoaster stuff F. Sometimes I think we need the down days.......don't know why.......maybe for us to continue to improve ourselves.
At least you are not backsliding.
Yesterday was bad but I will make today awesome!
I didn’t text W yesterday about picking up D6. I decided to wait since I was too emotional.
I texted her this morning instead:
M: Good morning. Can I pick up D6 Tuesday if she feels like it?
W: Hey. She is having dinner with a friend and would like to be at my place afterwards. Have a nice day.
M: I forgot about that. Have a nice day
W: :-)
Hey F,
I have just recently learned how to find peoples threads and I found yours today.
I just read through your situation. You are doing great. Better than me with the DBing. Keep it up.
I see that your are having a down day. I was cycling up and down so much at first too. As of late, I have not been doing that as much for some reason. I think it is because I have dropped my expectations to zero and I am mentally prepared for the D.
The cycling will ease up as time goes by. At least that is my experience so far. I am not happy about my situation but, it is what it is and it aint what it aint.
Keep focusing on you and understand that cycling is part of the process. Knowing that will help you see when a down cycle is coming. Knowing when a down cycle is coming helped me accept the fact that it IS just part of the process.
Thank you F for checking in on my thread. I will check in on you later and offer whatever small help that I can.
BKS
W called this morning about three issues.
Before these she wanted to share that D4 isn’t using her diaper these days
First she wanted me to remember to bring some special food to D4s kindergarten on Thursday.
Second she wanted me to know that the doctor will examine D4s eyes once more before she gets the glasses.
Thirdly she wanted me to transfer child support so we had the talk about the bill. She – off course – wants to keep things separate. I also told her that I have asked her about how to share the economics for the 5 months we lived together and that I would like this settled.
I agreed to transferring money now and she will come back on this.
Then she asked if she could come here so we could go over some tools she would like to have. She left in a hurry and she left several items here belonging to her. I told her that we can do that. She wants to come here on a working day without children.
At the same time I addressed that she will have to empty the barn before spring and that I would like my possessions back. She said something about being busy but that she will also look into this.
I ended the call. It was all nice, calm and pleasant.
This only leaves Christmas planning and I will be through the list. I didn’t bring it up today since the timing seemed all wrong.
She has been on my mind constantly since Saturday. I am not feeling that down – just a little sadness and broken love. I need to get her out of my head and put focus back on me. I feel like I lost some control over me after her visit.
Hey there F,
Just checking in on you. I know what you mean about, "not feeling down-just a little sadness and broken love."
It is a sad time in our (LBS) lives. We just need to understand that cycling is all part of the process.
Get out an GAL and hang out with friends. You are doing great, keep it up and stay positive.
BKS
It has been a nice day today. I picked up S10 this morning and he stayed home since he had the fever yesterday when he went to bed. I have been working some today and he has been with me in the office at home.
I have also cached up with old friends today and in the upcoming weekend I will take the children to visit them. We will stay a night and visit a local Tivoli. That will be nice.
Tomorrow I have yet another appointment at the doctor and afterwards I will pick up the Ds. It will be great seeing them. They will stay two extra days this time and I have taken these off so I am looking forward very much.
W is still very much in my mind but it is getting better and better although detachment seems so long down the road.
An hour after the convo this morning I received a text about lice at school.
W: PS. 6 children’s with lice was sent home yesterday from school. So the hair goes up and gets combed :-) I will tjeck them both to night, so if you can do the same in the weekend it will be great.Me: Will doI find it hard to stay dark or even dim. It’s feels like we almost communicate every day. I initiate almost nothing and if I do it is only regarding children or money.
I once again read her text as nice, pleasant and well meant.
You are doing great, keep it up and stay positive.
Thanks for checking in on me again and thanks for the kind words!
W is still very much in my mind but it is getting better and better although detachment seems so long down the road.
Pretty well exactly where I am F. It's a long road, but you just have to focus on the positive, the new us.
Sunset, beers, cows and sheep. Take care.
Fell asleep early yesterday and was up around 5.30 this morning.
W called yesterday evening at 22.15 but I was asleep and didn’t see it until this morning. She texted me at 23.10.
No lice this evening :-)
Tasty hour went well
D4 wants to attend gym. Let’s talk about it
Their bag won’t be ready until tomorrow afternoon. I hope that’s OKTasty hour is a one-time-event for children aged 5-6 years. They meet up at a gourmet-restaurant without adults and get to taste all kind of strange things, meet the Chef, se the kitchen and so on.
I replied W this morning:
Totally OK
I will be at your place around 14.30
She replied:
Top (meaning ok but a bit more jovial and happy)
Before my doctor appointment I picked up bags at W. I was there less than 2 min because I was late for doctor. No hug, no nothing – just a quick pick up. W told me a few things she and the girls will do next week. (Vacation week) I listened and told her that it sounded great.
I picked up the D6 first and she declined girl scouting again but without tears. She just decided to stay with me. Then off for D4. She is asthmatic and didn’t sound well at all.
We attended a quick birthday at neighbor and then home where I decided to call W to hear if the asthma came today or if she had medicated her the last days.
It came today! We talked shortly about her medication and then I told W about the girl scouting.
Then she told me that she was babysitting at mutual friends and her tone of voice was just the sweetest and kindest I have heard in a long time. I know I shouldn’t think about this, but it is hard as a man in love not to! It won’t let it affect my path and I won’t let it confuse me, but this special female voice: slow, low, soft, a little too much air and with an almost sexy touch just does it for me!
Doctors are pleased with my own healing. They tell me that I will properly be just fine in about two weeks.
I need to work this dark/dim thing because the above surely indicates that dark in fact is very light
I am doing just fine again
Another typical day of staying dark
I texted W this morning at 7AM
D4 stays home today. She is quite ill.
I think you forgot to put socks for D6 in the bag. It will be hard for her not to have these.W called shortly after and we spoke a little about D4s asthma. Then she asked if it would be all right if she put the socks in D6s locker at school. I agreed to that.
Half an hour later I received a text “
Socks are in the locker :-)”
At 11AM she calls and asks about D4s health. We talked shortly and she asked if D4 wanted to talk. She did; so W and her chatted for some minutes and then they hung up.
Everytime we talk I try hard to stick to children and money. She seems to be doing the same but still she also tells me about something that she is doing alone or with children. She is sharing a (very) little part of her life.
Otherwise a nice day. Ds and I got apples from the garden and made a huge apple cake. Neighbors came over for coffee and cake.
I also got a call from Ws cousin this evening. He will visit me on Sunday – it will be nice seeing him again.
I am still trying to get the focus back on me. I find it hard!
Other than DBing in general I do not feel I am doing things to “win” back W but I sure am thinking a lot about her and missing her a lot these days. I have been thinking a lot about the changes I have made. Are those truly me or am I just doing things because I want her to know that I am doing great and for her to miss me. After evaluating I have come to the conclusion that I am doing things for me (and children) but at the same time I do hope these things will help my sit.
I think I find myself in a new kind of roller coaster. It is no longer controlled by her sayings or doings. It is now controlled by my own feelings for her and life without my family.
I can fully understand your last paragraph F. Yes, we are changing, for us, but in truth, for our W's to see us in a better light and come back.
Have you got to that point yet, where you still want your W back, but really don't know how comfortable it would be anymore? That is how I feel. I have had her gone for so long, it would be like a complete new relationship.
Yes, it is a new kind of rollercoaster ride now. Easier to get off and doesn't go as high anymore. Just simply goes up and down, but now smaller dips.
Another typical day of staying dark
I think the better term would be closer to "detached" instead of staying dark. About the only way a man can successfully go dark is when there is absolutely no contact of any type from either side. It's like dropping off the face of the earth! A few years ago, I noticed a newcomer using the term "going gray", which was supposed to be his version of not being quite dark. Shortly afterwards, others started referring to the gray....which I'll have to admit, really irritated me for some reason.
Isn't it funny how we humans can put so much into how somebody says something? Like, how it made you feel when you heard your W speak in her "sweet" tone of voice?
That's why I have tried to encourage you about the way you or tone you speak to her...and looking into her eyes, etc. You may never know how it affects her.....just as she probably didn't know how hers affected you when she told you about the babysitting. (Or maybe she did!
)
I think I find myself in a new kind of roller coaster. It is no longer controlled by her sayings or doings. It is now controlled by my own feelings for her and life without my family.
You've made great strides in the last few weeks. I wish I could tell you that this will all turn out like you want it to, but that's just something none of us know. Do you feel better about yourself and how you are choosing to deal with your stitch?
I have one other question, and please don't get upset b/c I'm just asking. Have you given any thought to going out with another lady sometime in the near future? I mean like just a causal, friendly dinner?
Sandi,
I think the better term would be closer to "detached" instead of staying dark.
Yes, definitely – it was more a joke than a serious statement! I am aware that I can’t go dark.
I am working hard on only contacting her about children or money and I believe I am doing just fine, but W and I still talk most the days.
It seems like our meet-up Saturday has stopped her invitations for now.
I do feel much more relaxed talking to her.
That's why I have tried to encourage you about the way you or tone you speak to her...and looking into her eyes, etc.
When looking at how her tone of voice affected me I really understand this now.
Do you believe that a man’s tone of voice can affect a woman in the same way as the opposite way around?
You've made great strides in the last few weeks. I wish I could tell you that this will all turn out like you want it to, but that's just something none of us know.
Do you feel better about yourself and how you are choosing to deal with your stitch?
Thanks for the kind words – it really means A LOT!
I feel so much better! I feel I have gained some control over me and my life again.
I feel as an attractive, confident manly man again. (W can properly still kill this in a moment) My strength, confidence, self-worth is increasing. I like my new looks and style in clothing.
My worries are shifting from W to more common things like health, finance, time and so on.
Still a very long way to go, but compared to three months ago I can’t even describe the difference. Her moving out and you and others helping me since then have made a humongous difference to me. The last days have been hard but it’s still nothing compared to earlier.
Nobody knows how things will turn out, but the path I am on is definitely the right one for me and for the children. That’s the important part. I also feel this path is the right one if R is ever to happen. I still feel I have a lot of patience left and as long as I can keep my hope up I will continue the waiting.
Unfortunately I don’t see W moving towards me at all, but my sit is still young. I still try to keep my hopes up, but looking at this objectively I believe I need a little miracle – but these do happen.
I am also sorry to admit but the feeling of having something (cake) that she wants is quite nice. I guess I am not supposed to feel this way but still I do.
I have one other question, and please don't get upset b/c I'm just asking. Have you given any thought to going out with another lady sometime in the near future? I mean like just a causal, friendly dinner?
You have to explain this to me: Why would I get upset?
And then the question:
Off course I have – I am a guy! I have also made further thoughts – still a guy
I haven’t done anything towards this, but the considering.
I spoke with my shrink last time about this and she told me to enjoy life. Her words were something like “Well, F – I don’t think you should get hooked up at the moment but I don’t see anything wrong with enjoying life”. (She doesn’t know anything about this forum or DB since I haven’t told her.)
I have been thinking a lot about these words. To be totally honest I would simply love an evening (and night) with a pleasant woman. Sex isn’t that big an issue but good conversation, holding hands, closeness, waking up together and so on I really miss. It’s kind of funny since I pursued W for sex and totally left her dangling on all the other accounts for so long.
One major problem is time! I feel I have been so busy. Either I am a dad focusing on my children or a single guy focusing on GAL with friends, house renovation, reading, work and so on. My weekends until mid-December are booked with at least one thing per weekend.
Another issue if this should be done, is that I don’t know any single lady that I would like to eat a casual dinner with. That’s solvable, but it will take a little time and a shift in the focus I have. I simply don’t look at other women in “that” way. I hope this makes sense.
As I have read these boards this isn’t recommended in general – but I would love to have your opinion!
I understand the possibility of a casual dinner or a night turning in to something else and more. I also realize that I am not even close to being at that point. I still want W back and even if I didn’t I would still need time for me.
Would a casual dinner be good for me at this moment in your opinion?
I haven’t addressed the Christmas issue! Do you have any suggestions on this one after reading about my interactions with W the last week.
It’s Monday and the weekend have been great.
Lots of good GAL with children and just joyful times.
I am still seeing all the little situations where W is supposed to be around and I miss her so much. I can’t see any solution to this but time. I am to the best of my abilities following advice about GAL and focus on me.
There have been no contact at all for some days and I have been OK with that.
This morning I received an e-mail
Hi all
Do you want to come along when D6 has her first tjeck at the school-nurse.
They recommend that we come along.
If so, then se when it fit in to your schedule and let me know. I will book it.
I don’t think we should go on the 22. since she is attending a birthday at 1PM
I hope you enjoy
Say hi to all
PS What time do you plan to drop them off Wednesday
Autosignature.
School nurse is simply a tjeck up on height, weight and so on and nothing important.
Reading this e-mail I saw a Facebook update about her doing some work in her kitchen. I wondered because she normally dosnt post on FB at all and now suddenly a long post about her putting up some shelves and rewarding her self with a steak, salad and wine.
What hit me was that my family was liking and commenting this. My SIL (whom I don’t like and W as well) in fact invited her to visit them.
I need to shake this off and get the focus on my life.
I am going to reply something like.
Hi
Everything is just fine. D4 is still having respiratory issues but it is getting better.
I do not see the need that we both go to see the nurse. I will gladly take D6, but if you would like to see what goes on, then that will be just fine with me.
I expect to drop Ds off around 10.00-10.30AM on Wednesday.
F
Advice?
I have also several times been hit by that nobody is asking about W/sit anymore. Ws cousin visited me yesterday and mentioned nothing about W. I visited 3 mutual friends separately and they mentioned nothing as well. One did ask if I had let the anger go but that’s all.
It feels like everybody knows something that I don’t and my mind has been circling around what W is telling about sit – if anything at all. This anger-thing made me wonder if W thinks I am angry and have been telling this to people that knows me.
Is this a normal feeling? Is it just me? Is it just the sit expanding to friends and family?
I never mention W and I don’t talk about her even if people ask. I have had good convo’s about some of the books I read, the work I do and especially about the children and how they cope.
I guess the answer to this is that since I do not talk about it - people don't ask.
It like the elephant is in the room all the time but nobody points it out. It is not a pleasant feeling to carry around but I don’t know what to do about it.
I talked a lot about children-issues with a local guy yesterday and he said several times that I also need to mind myself. He properly looked right through me but still he said I was doing well and that he likes all the initiatives I have taken about meeting up with or without children. “You are inspiring several people to do the same at the moment.”
Babbling! Over and out!
I have also several times been hit by that nobody is asking about W/sit anymore. Ws cousin visited me yesterday and mentioned nothing about W. I visited 3 mutual friends separately and they mentioned nothing as well. One did ask if I had let the anger go but that’s all.
It feels like everybody knows something that I don’t and my mind has been circling around what W is telling about sit – if anything at all. This anger-thing made me wonder if W thinks I am angry and have been telling this to people that knows me.
Is this a normal feeling? Is it just me? Is it just the sit expanding to friends and family?
I never mention W and I don’t talk about her even if people ask. I have had good convo’s about some of the books I read, the work I do and especially about the children and how they cope.
I guess the answer to this is that since I do not talk about it - people don't ask.
It like the elephant is in the room all the time but nobody points it out. It is not a pleasant feeling to carry around but I don’t know what to do about it.
F, I fully understand your feelings on this. I feel the same way, like this big elephant is always following me around. I think the attitude from the family and friends is simple, they really don't want to get so involved in the sitch. Therefore if you are not talking about it, they don't want to talk or hear about it. They might care deep down, but they simply want to view it as "not talked about, not worried about".
My best friend kept saying that to me. "It affects us just as much as it affects you, so stop talking about the sitch" he said. Yeah well, when it affects you, your health and your wellbeing like me, I will let you know, FFS. Really what kind of a friend says that?
Anyway F, I think it is just another thing us LBS's need to deal with. Good work on the weekend and how you are going to reply to the email. I think it is fine.
Sunset, beers, cows and sheep. Getting closer, less than 9 weeks now.
Hej Far,
A 'casual' dinner one on one sounds too intense, but perhaps being with a group of people, including women, would be good.
Luke
I don't know what happened to the post I sent a couple of days ago, but it didn't appear. Oh well......
I guess the answer to this is that since I do not talk about it - people don't ask.
Yep, I think you hit the nail. As for the elephant.....I would say others aren't bothered by it b/c they don't see the elephant. The only time the elephant shows up is when you seem to think the subject of your R should come up in conversation. What did you talk to these people about before you and W broke up?
You are allowing the M separation to hinder you around family/friends. By reading, I get the feeling you seem embarrassed and tense or awkward whenever you get around other people who know both of you. You need to learn how to act as if she is not a part of your life.....just as you did before you met her. When you are comfortable, others will be too. It's all part of that new self-confident man.
I think it is time for you to approach W about Christmas plans.
Sandi,
If it the one about being ready for a dinner, then it did appear and I have replied.
It is on the previous page.
How should I approach Christmas plans? - Just straight on? At a meet up, phone, writing? I feel like doing it at a meet-up and just take up the subject and see what happens!
Oh, and by the way: I am not embarrassed - it is awkward but that’s just the being single around all these couples.
I hope you will look into my answer on your previous post.
F
No, it wasn't that post. I just lost it I guess.
As I have read these boards this isn’t recommended in general – but I would love to have your opinion!
I understand the possibility of a casual dinner or a night turning in to something else and more. I also realize that I am not even close to being at that point. I still want W back and even if I didn’t I would still need time for me.
I don't recall MWD stating her VP about it in her DR book, however, it has been a while since I've read it. I realize there are some who disagree with "dating".
If you want to be technical, you aren't legally M. Which, btw, I've been meaning to ask you...why
didn't you M her?
The reason I was asking how you felt about the idea of dating is b/c I think she needs something to jump start her engine. She needs to see you as an available bachelor. I'm not suggesting anything intense, just a friendly dinner. It can be nice without it being romantic, can't it? I don't think you should lead a woman on to think there is more....if there isn't. Just tuck it inside your brain so if the occasion should arise, you will be prepared to act. There are a few women out there who would enjoy a friendly dinner also.
Okay, about the Christmas thing....I was really hoping LTH, Labug or Advina would jump in and help with the wording. They are much better than I am.
Do your kids do anything on Halloween? If so, has that been discussed yet?
I don't recall MWD stating her VP about it in her DR book
Me neither. I was only referring to what I read in here.
It can be nice without it being romantic, can't it?
Definitely!
Few days or weeks after BD W told me that I should feel free to date or get some sex. As I have written before I was pursuing her for sex and the further away I come from BD and the clearer my mind get I believe that this was a major thing to her. I also remember her stating/spewing “I can’t believe you have gone so long without”
I think I understand my own behavior now! In short the case was that we have been in trouble for a long time and at last the only thing that was back was us ML (which it wasn’t – just boring sex! –especially for W)
I was clinging to the ML because that was all that was left!
When things turned all bad at last I rejected her - passive aggressive little boy!
I am writing this because if this is a major issue to W it might be wrong going on a “light” date – what your opinion?
At the same time I really don’t care that much. If a nice woman whom I think I can enjoy an evening with suddenly comes by – I will eat dinner with her! I haven’t planned on seeking it in anyway.
If you want to be technical, you aren't legally M. Which, btw, I've been meaning to ask you...why didn't you M her?
25mlc asked me this a long time ago and I answered:
I haven’t got a decent answer to this question! I have thought about it a million times during the last years but haven’t acted! At this moment I feel regrets on this behalf but at the same time I do not think it would have saved anything!
It’s like every time I thought about purposing some crap (Fathers dead, premature birth, financials, bankruptcy, illness – long list) came up and gave us bad times. I also think that the fact that I already divorced once kept me from purposing. It’s properly several things playing together.
If R ever happens and things work out this is something I will remedy
Okay, about the Christmas thing....I was really hoping LTH, Labug or Advina would jump in and help with the wording. They are much better than I am.
I hope they will look in om me then. If I get a good chance I will bring it up but otherwise I will hold the horses a week or two.
Do your kids do anything on Halloween?
Halloween isn’t that big here! We do something similar but it’s in February.
W called twice this evening. I didn’t feel like talking the first time and we were eating the second time she called. When I called her back she wanted answers to her email from this morning.
I told her almost down to the word what I posted here and then I tried to end the convo. She asked if we were having good times and I told her yes but without telling her what we have been doing and then I tried to end the convo. She asked if Ds wanted to talk – they did. D6 first and then D4. D4 got very sad and started crying. She miss W. After this I ended the convo.
The tone was once again all pleasant.
Later D6 got mad at me and told me that “Then I can just always live with mom”. That one hurt and I told D6 in harsh words that this wasn’t a fair statement. I am not proud of my reaction so I told her that I was sorry about my it and explained that it hurt me. Then she hugged me
and said that she didn’t mean it.
When tugging Ds in they were both very sad and crying – missing W. D6 and I have had a long convo about this. She wants to go to W tomorrow but I have told her no. It’s hard seeing them and hearing them talk about missing. They both tell me unasked that it is the other way around as well. D6 asked me this evening why we can’t live together. I try to the best of my abilities to help them but I am not educated or trained in these matters. I hug, listen, validate and tell them that their feelings are ok. I try very hard to not talk about W at all in front of them. I am simply afraid that my tone of voice or wording will come out wrong these days and I do NOT want to talk or sound bad in regards of W.
It has been a very emotional evening! Rough!
It seems a little unfair of your W to call and ask if the girls want to talk to her. If they were missing her and asked you to call her, that would be different. Hearing their mother's voice will naturally trigger the emotional bond and cause young children to want to be with her. Maybe you need to approach her in an email about the affect it has on them when she calls. Didn't this come up once before?
I really don't think you should wait till November to discuss Christmas with W. But hopefully the others will give their suggestions.