So our spouses tell us that it is over and we start DBing. But it is too little too late and we end up separated or in the process of divorce. Now we start the LRT. We get a life, we work on our 180s, we detach. We have taken a seat on the craziest roller coaster ride of our lives and it becomes our reality, our normal. Until we get off.
Will our spouses notice our 180s? Will they see that we have gotten a life? Will it make any difference? Maybe. But what if our spouses are seeking limerence (AnotherStander’s favorite word)? Will our spouses ever realize that the feeling of being in love is temporary and we offer a real love and commitment?
Our spouses have told us “I love you, but I am not in love with you.” Wow that hurts!! Especially now that we are realizing that we are losing something that we had been taking for granted. We want that which is scarce.
And so do our spouses. If our spouses see us as there and available will they ever come back to us? Or is it more likely that they will return when they fear losing us. It may seem ironic that our spouses may finally want us back as soon as we don’t want them any longer.
And so it happens. We begin dating others and truly moving on with our lives and the green-eyed monster reveals it’s ugly face and those brain chemicals kick in and finally our walk-away spouses have feelings for us again.
Oh yes, it is a chemical in our brains (oxytocin in the case of women) that causes those feelings of being in-love. This is what our walk away wives get from seeing an OM. What is causing the attraction (the release of oxytocin)? It is the uncertainty, the mystery, the push-pull dynamic. It is new and exciting. It is fun and stress-free. And don’t forget, our walkaway spouses get a rush just from being “bad”.
What if we, as left-behind spouses, could do things to create attraction in our walk-away spouses? Is it wrong to date others simply to get our walk-away spouses to notice us again? What other things could we do to create a sense of mystery and excitement and draw our spouses back to us? Would we do those things just to open the door of opportunity to potentially reconcile? Or do we need our spouses to come to the conclusion that limerence is temporary and we offer so much more than that?
Thoughts?
Game-playing and not authentic to who I want to be. Others may think differently.
Would you want a R based on that?
Men produce oxytocin but in lesser amounts than women. (women also produce testosterone)
I agree that game playing is not the direction we should be headed in but I do think its good for the LBS to date. Its good for the LBS self esteem and it also may make the WAS take a second look.
Funny I havent been on a date yet, for me it just doesnt feel authentic to date but in theory I would like to.
I don't think that game playing has a place in DBing.
I wouldn't want my W to come back because of that. What do you suppose might be the backlash when they realize what you are doing is not genuine?
I can see how dating someone purely for the purpose of making our spouse jealous would be considered game playing, but I didn't mean to focus my post on that action in particular. I was more thinking about an entire spectrum of things that we could do or not do that lead us to be more attractive. sandi2's 37 rules would be examples. What if we made a rule to never say anything negative to our spouse no matter what. Always frame everything in the positive. Would that be a game? What makes something a game? If we are acting as if everything is great when we feel terrible is that not a game?
"We begin dating others and truly moving on with our lives and the green-eyed monster reveals it’s ugly face and those brain chemicals kick in and finally our walk-away spouses have feelings for us again."
You're making pretty general statements. Just from what I've seen, this doesn't happen in the majority of cases. Jealousy doesn't make them come back.
You're pretty off the mark in alot of your generalizations. I understand that you said you "read" DB when your first M was in trouble, but I don't think you understood what it was.
"I was more thinking about an entire spectrum of things that we could do or not do that lead us to be more attractive. sandi2's 37 rules would be examples."
First of all, these aren't Sandi's rules. They are written in the book.
Second, the rules aren't done to "make you attractive". It's to help you cope through all the confusion with what's going on. It gives you something to concentrate on so you're not entirely thinking about your spouse.
" What if we made a rule to never say anything negative to our spouse no matter what."
No one said you had to do that and obviously it's impossible.
"Always frame everything in the positive. Would that be a game? What makes something a game? If we are acting as if everything is great when we feel terrible is that not a game?"
No one said that you had to act "as if" everything were great. It's the act of respecting the other WAS's right to decide to D. You don't have to agree with it.
If you didn't change the behaviors or those things that your W said turned her off, then no amount of dating is going to get her back.
You have only been at this for a very short time, yet have gone out on several dates. That speaks less about your W and more about who you are. You don't need to date to be happy.
Your second post was clearer in what you were trying to convey. Many people who come here are looking for game strategies and do think of this a game with moves based on what their spouse does or does not do.
Have you read URworthy's thread? Lots of good ideas in there.
This is a much-needed and often-overlooked discussion.
People need to get off their high-horse about "game-playing," as much of DBing is based -- let's be honest here -- on reading, learning and then doing specific techniques that are designed to re-attract wayward or walkaway spouses. Are "180s" not game-playing, if the new, 180-degree oppositive behavior isn't something that is authentic to our usual selves?
That's just one example.
I don't advocate dating while married, at least not while actively trying to reconcile and CERTAINLY not without being honest with each other as to what rules are in place during that stage of your separation. But to NOT be willing to study -- and openly discuss and debate -- the basic laws of human attraction is to (in my opinion) remove 3 bullets from your gun before you even start.
It's a basic dynamic of human attraction that neediness is NOT attractive, and yet people want what they perceive they CAN'T have.
There are ways to build this understanding into appropriate DBing, and it can put your efforts on a much faster track to possible success.
Anyone trying to DB a spouse actively engaged in an affair would be wise to Google "PEA brain chemicals endorphines love lust infidelity", and do a little research. PEAs are HIGHLY addictive, and even show up on CAT scans! It is the drug that makes an otherwise sane, intelligent adult woman -- an astronaut no less! -- drive across country WEARING AN ADULT DIAPER (so she doesn't have to take bathroom stops), to avenge the loss of her man to another woman.
It's what makes an otherwise intelligent, successful man risk his entire family and career over a fling with a woman half his age.
Food for thought.
Starsky
"Always frame everything in the positive. Would that be a game? What makes something a game? If we are acting as if everything is great when we feel terrible is that not a game?"
No one said that you had to act "as if" everything were great.
Interesting, I understand acting "as if" to mean (for example) when you're WAS asks "How are you?" you say "I'm great"... even though you are really dying inside and you'd rather tell them how much you love them and want to make things work. Instead you say "I'm great" and paired w/ your GAL's they believe it's true; you show them you're moving on with or with out them.
Is that not correct?
If not then, geez.
The conversation I just had was my WAH an hour ago, w/ me trying to stick to the DB
GAME-plan..... telling him all is well when he asked me how I was doing (since I've moved and live all alone w/ no family and friends), instead of being truthful, was wrong?
So there ARE times where I can be simply honest and say "Things have been really hard. I miss you."??? This is not what I've grown to understand. Hmmm.
I understand everyone's POV though, b/c my H bomb dropped AFTER I worked so hard w/ DBing. That's when I realized that the DB techniques are mainly for the LBS, to help make them a better person....
But when a book is titled Divorce BUSTING & Divorce REMEDY.... those picking the book up and naturally going to think the things inside are going to help bring thier spouse home and that's their goal, I don't think it's wrong for any one to use what they are learning to reach that goal. But it's best that the changes are permanent, b/c if they do bring the spouse home it needs to be legit in order to keep them there.
"We begin dating others and truly moving on with our lives and the green-eyed monster reveals it’s ugly face and those brain chemicals kick in and finally our walk-away spouses have feelings for us again."
You're making pretty general statements. Just from what I've seen, this doesn't happen in the majority of cases. Jealousy doesn't make them come back.
I didn't mean to imply that it happens in the majority of cases. Just sometimes.
You're pretty off the mark in alot of your generalizations. I understand that you said you "read" DB when your first M was in trouble, but I don't think you understood what it was.
Please help me out here. But I am hoping to not make this thread about me. I would really love help with my situation which I am documenting
Here "I was more thinking about an entire spectrum of things that we could do or not do that lead us to be more attractive. sandi2's 37 rules would be examples."
First of all, these aren't Sandi's rules. They are written in the book.
I get that, but they are referred to as Sandi2's rules several places on this site. So I used that as a reference.
Second, the rules aren't done to "make you attractive". It's to help you cope through all the confusion with what's going on. It gives you something to concentrate on so you're not entirely thinking about your spouse.
Many of the rules do help us not be less attractive at the very least.
" What if we made a rule to never say anything negative to our spouse no matter what."
No one said you had to do that and obviously it's impossible.
"Always frame everything in the positive. Would that be a game? What makes something a game? If we are acting as if everything is great when we feel terrible is that not a game?"
No one said that you had to act "as if" everything were great. It's the act of respecting the other WAS's right to decide to D. You don't have to agree with it.
If you didn't change the behaviors or those things that your W said turned her off, then no amount of dating is going to get her back.
You have only been at this for a very short time, yet have gone out on several dates. That speaks less about your W and more about who you are. You don't need to date to be happy.
I am not sure what my dating says about me. Nonetheless, I am currently only dating my w and will be seeing her on Wednesday. I would love help with that, but again, I didn't want to make this thread about me.
Acting "as if" is to act as if you accept their decision to D. This usually slows down the D process because the WAS feels they are getting what they want. It also helps you in terms of detaching and understanding that you cannot control another person into believing what you believe.
Go back and read the book.
Acting "as if" is to act as if you accept their decision to D. This usually slows down the D process because the WAS feels they are getting what they want. It also helps you in terms of detaching and understanding that you cannot control another person into believing what you believe.
Go back and read the book.
Actually, you're both wrong. Acting as-if is mainly about acting as if you expect a positive reaction or outcome from your wayward/walkaway spouse.
Divorce Remedy, pp. 111-112.
Starsky
p. 152, Divorce Remedy:
Since it's hard to know if your spouse is truly done with your marraige or just needs some more time to come to his/her senses, if I were you, I would err on the side of caution. Why not assume that this is going to take much longer than you anticipated, but that, in the end, things will work out. "Act as if" you believe that your marriage still has possibilities. Do the things you would do if you envisioned a positive outcome to all of your efforts.
This is a much-needed and often-overlooked discussion.
Thank you.
Hopefully we can have this discussion in a friendly and civil manner. We are all here to give and receive support, and hopefully restore some marriages where possible.
Please consider the following hypothetical scenario. Suppose a walk-away spouse and a left-behind spouse spend some time together and one thing leads to another and they end up in bed together. The next day the LBS feels like proposing getting back together. But I would bet that most realize that it is probably better to instead give the WAS spouse some space and not rush things. But then the WAS is not being authentic to his/her feelings. If you are going against your feelings in order to give the relationship its best shot are you not playing a game?
I don't have my books with me currently Mr Bond, but thanks for the clarification Starsky. I think on this forum a lot of things get misconstrued, we all read the books and interpret them in our own ways and share that here and some of the wrong ideas then spread. But yes Starsky, I found this video on Michelle explaining "acting as if" on youtube (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AErbVUDLoRY) and it lines up more w/ your understanding and the quote of course.
I think after joining the forum and always being directed to "Sandi's Rules" I forgot the book explanation, as Sandi's Rules state
"#12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude."
"Actually, you're both wrong. Acting as-if is mainly about acting as if you expect a positive reaction or outcome from your wayward/walkaway spouse."
Yep it's also that.
What you call a game I would call self control. If we all went around spewing whatever feelings we have with no regard for whether they were welcome or something the other person is even in a place to hear, then we wouldn't be managing ourselves responsibly in the world and we wouldn't get much of what we want.
Do you say whatever you're feeling in the moment at work? If not, are you playing a game?
So let's agree to get beyond the term "game playing" and agree that we all do things that may feel wrong, but we know will lead to a better outcome for our situations. What we choose to do will depend on what we think is right for each of our situations and our personal moral values; we are all going to be guided by our own moral compass.
What if I told you that, all else equal, wearing red will make you a more attractive person? Would you wear red more often? Or would you not feel right about manipulating others through wearing a particular color? (Btw, this is in fact true, both genders find the opposite sex more attractive in red)
"and agree that we all do things that may feel wrong, but we know will lead to a better outcome for our situations."
I don't think you are quite getting it. You don't necessarily have to do something just to get a desired outcome. You have to be comfortable with that action as well. If you're not, then your reactions will be fake.
"What if I told you that, all else equal, wearing red will make you a more attractive person? Would you wear red more often?"
No. I would wear it if it pleased me. Not if it pleased someone else. If your sole purposes was to hook up with someone, then of course you would wear red. But eventually you will have to change clothes and you're right back to being the same person you always were before you put on red.
"Or would you not feel right about manipulating others through wearing a particular color?"
Again it doesn't make sense. Even if you were to wear red, the other person has a CHOICE to be attracted or not. If everything were as simple as you make it out to be, then ever AXE and female perfume commercial would be true. That wearing a certain scent, or clothes, or doing something will make the other sex instantly attracted to you.
Of course none of that works.
"and agree that we all do things that may feel wrong, but we know will lead to a better outcome for our situations."
I don't think you are quite getting it. You don't necessarily have to do something just to get a desired outcome. You have to be comfortable with that action as well. If you're not, then your reactions will be fake.
"What if I told you that, all else equal, wearing red will make you a more attractive person? Would you wear red more often?"
No. I would wear it if it pleased me. Not if it pleased someone else. If your sole purposes was to hook up with someone, then of course you would wear red. But eventually you will have to change clothes and you're right back to being the same person you always were before you put on red.
"Or would you not feel right about manipulating others through wearing a particular color?"
Again it doesn't make sense. Even if you were to wear red, the other person has a CHOICE to be attracted or not. If everything were as simple as you make it out to be, then ever AXE and female perfume commercial would be true. That wearing a certain scent, or clothes, or doing something will make the other sex instantly attracted to you.
Of course none of that works.
If wearing red makes us more attractive and we change from wearing red 10% of the time to 15% of the time, then on average, our attractiveness will increase a little bit. Of course it is not going to make a huge difference. Same for wearing perfume or cologne. The total of all the little things we can do to make ourselves more attractive can have a meaningful impact.
If I do these things as part of a permanent change to make myself a more attractive person, then there will be a lasting effect.
I am not sure what you are pointing to when you say that I don't get it.
Great thread. For me, and that's the only thing I control.
. I started DB to save my marriage. None of my other "tactics" worked. My marriage was slipping away, I was slipping way. I started DB as a save. But then I got it. DB is more about me. Making me a whole, confident, individual ready for one of two things: being married to my WAS again or being fulfilled on my own. Making me a better spouse and a better person.
Games? A little. You can see it that way. But sooner or later, if your not playing games with yourself, MWD's therapy will make you better... I am. From when I first logged in? So much better.
I agree RT. When I first began DBing, it felt like a game. Once I started to understand it and realized why I was doing it, it made me a better person and a better spouse. You only 180 the things you can 180 while remaining true to yourself; you GAL because you should be doing that anyway, M or not, but we lose sight of these things when we get M and have a family; you keep a PMA because it helps you to get through this. These actions have to become a part of you to make a real difference, you can only keep up a game for so long.
As for dating, I can tell you right now 2nd time, that if my H had started dating when I was having an A there is no way that would have brought me back. I would have been relieved and I would have definitely walked. I didn't care enough to be jealous back then and it would have given me the freedom to really do whatever I wanted. If you are thinking about doing this, I would not suggest it.
"I am not sure what you are pointing to when you say that I don't get it."
This thread started under the understanding that you were dating. In a way you were relating dating to being a way to get your spouse back like one would use some other external stimulus to "attract" your W back.
The whole point is that it doesn't matter what external ploy or product use/do to "attract" them back. If you, as a person, remain the same as before they will not come back regardless of what you use.
Jealousy may get them back to you (not all the time), but it's not a way to sustain a long lasting relationship. And working on yourself is the first thing you do before anything else.
"I am not sure what you are pointing to when you say that I don't get it."
This thread started under the understanding that you were dating. In a way you were relating dating to being a way to get your spouse back like one would use some other external stimulus to "attract" your W back.
The whole point is that it doesn't matter what external ploy or product use/do to "attract" them back. If you, as a person, remain the same as before they will not come back regardless of what you use.
Jealousy may get them back to you (not all the time), but it's not a way to sustain a long lasting relationship. And working on yourself is the first thing you do before anything else.
I have dated others but not as a means to make my w jealous. I did it as part of detaching and moving on. I mentioned it because it potentially had the side-effect of making my w jealous.
I understand that in order to have a relationship that works in the future we need to make changes to ourselves that make us better partners.
I am wondering if dating others could potentially open the door to a second chance with the understanding that we need to make other changes for our relationships to work in the long run.
I didn't mean to focus this thread on dating others and jealousy. That is just one example of something that can lead to attraction.
I am currently dating my w and nobody else. I didn't mean for this thread to be about me. My situation is documented
Here
So I think this
I am wondering if dating others could potentially open the door to a second chance with the understanding that we need to make other changes for our relationships to work in the long run.
is totally cool as long as you let the person you're dating know what the score is.
They're people with feelings too.
When you start threads, just like with people, the only thing you have control over it you.
"I did it as part of detaching and moving on."
That's not a way of detaching. All it does is attach you with someone else that you fully can't commit to if you're still wanting to get back with your W.
"I am wondering if dating others could potentially open the door to a second chance with the understanding that we need to make other changes for our relationships to work in the long run."
Of course it can, but then again so can anything else like making friends with happily married couples or reading a book on how to have a great marriage, etc.
"I didn't mean to focus this thread on dating others and jealousy. That is just one example of something that can lead to attraction."
That's more jealousy than it is attraction. Jealousy is the idea of wanting something that you feel is yours. It's based on pride.
"I am currently dating my w and nobody else."
I thought you were going out on dates?
Good debate on this thread! Im following along and liking this....
I too dont think dating is a good idea. Ive seen many former WAWs say that they would have been relieved if their husband started dating. It takes away a lot of the guilt that WAWs have about leaving their husband and family. Not to mention wrecking someones life by having them get attached to you only for you to leave them the second your WAW shows interest.
I second starsky's opinion that there is a lot of game play in getting your spouse back. Of course we learn new skills on the way that will make us better partners but most of those skills cant be Deedemonstrated until you have a comnited spouse, it is getting them to recommit that requires some game play....I think.
"I am currently dating my w and nobody else."
I thought you were going out on dates?
I think you are referring to something I said on another thread, so let me clarify. I had been dating someone else who was also separated and we were both totally aware of each other's situations. We have not actually seen each other since my w came more strongly back in the picture a few weeks ago. I officially told her I wouldn't see her anymore yesterday. I am going out with my w tomorrow.
SM34
most of those skills cant be Deedemonstrated until you have a comnited spouse, it is getting them to recommit that requires some game play....I think.
Expand on this if you would.
SM34
most of those skills cant be Deedemonstrated until you have a comnited spouse, it is getting them to recommit that requires some game play....I think.
Expand on this if you would.
I'd like to see this response, too, but I think it has to do with the difference between working at RE-ATTRACTION, and beginning to actually work on the RELATIONSHIP. Many of us contend that far too little attention is paid to working on basic laws of human ATTRACTION, and learning to use them to your advantage when DBing. It's the physiological underpinning beneath EVERYTHING YOU DO.
Starsky
This is a very interesting discussion. I am curious to read more about about what Starsky said as to me it rings very true:
the difference between working at RE-ATTRACTION, and beginning to actually work on the RELATIONSHIP. Many of us contend that far too little attention is paid to working on basic laws of human ATTRACTION, and learning to use them to your advantage when DBing.
And Starsky....its really nice to see you back. I have always learned so much from you.
I really should read some of that attraction material, just to know what it says other than what's been cited here which often seems to be taken out of context and overgeneralized.
If it refers to not sitting around the house with you hand in your boxers, celebrating your most explosive flatulence, and imposing the "dutch oven" treatment on your wife, I believe it could seriously help someone I know. (lol)
Let me reiterate that it is given that the most important stuff for us to do is to work on ourselves, do our 180s, get a life, and make these changes lasting so that any relationship we have in the future will have a better chance than our last relationship.
Some of us are looking for a few extra tools. Some of us find ourselves in a place where our spouses no longer find us attractive and we are looking for ways to become more attractive. If we do a Google search on attraction all kinds of stuff comes up and we have to wade through it.
Here are the issues
Is there any science behind what these seduction community characters on the internet are selling? There is, but you have to wade through a bunch of crap and marketing to find it. If there is something, it is usually bundled so that there is 95% marketing and 5% substance.
Some of the stuff these guys advise doing is crap that they just make up. Other stuff is based on their own experiences and may or may not be legitimate. But some stuff is based on real research.
It comes from evolutionary psychology literature, interpersonal communication literature, body language experts, something called neuro linguistic programing…
Others could add to the list
Check out this article:
Oesch, N. & Miklousic, I. (2012). The dating mind: Evolutionary psychology and the emerging science of human courtship. Evolutionary Psychology, 10(5), 899-909.
Or if you want an overview read The Game, by Neil Strauss
Can these attraction gurus help us have lasting long-term relationships? Probably not. It doesn’t seem like these folks are interested in relationships. And from what I can tell, the ones that have tried have failed.
So there seems to be a gap that needs to be filled between attracting our wayward spouses back and doing the things we need to do get them to want to stick around. I am looking for help filling that gap.
I also am aware of the thinking that anything we do purely to get our spouse back and not to make a change to ourselves is counter production because it won’t be lasting and if our spouses think we are changing just to get them back, that in and of itself in unattractive. But becoming more attractive can be something we do for ourselves outside of us just wanting our spouses back.
What you seem to be missing is the fact that these are people whom we have had a long term relationship with and not just someone you just met in a bar. There a many things that contribute to the "non-attraction". A big part is the things we've done to the WAS to make them walk out in the first place. If they don't want to forgive those things that have happened, and don't want to chance getting hurt again, no amount of outside stimuli is going to help.
these are people whom we have had a long term relationship with and not just someone you just met in a bar. There a many things that contribute to the "non-attraction". A big part is the things we've done to the WAS to make them walk out in the first place. If they don't want to forgive those things that have happened, and don't want to chance getting hurt again, no amount of outside stimuli is going to help.
I agree. But isn't it also possible that we could make the changes to get beyond these things, be forgiven for them, and still have our spouses not be attracted to us? Is it possible that learning how to be more attractive could help? Are you familiar with neuro linguistic programming? Are you aware that learning these techniques could help us in many aspects of our lives and not just attraction?
Yes I know NLP, and it's not relevant to my point. Many WAS's bring up the fact that they can't forget what happened before, etc. And many really try to deal with the issues on their own but not in a way that the LBS realizes is very serious. Not in every case, but sometimes.
The LBS can change as much as they want, but it takes "acceptance" and "forgiveness" and "understanding" from the WAS to lower the walls they've built up to even see the LBS as attractive on all levels (physically, mentally, emotionally, etc.)
Therefore it goes beyond just "attraction".
I would like to clarify the point I was trying to make about some relationship techniques I have learned throughout my journey that cannot be demonstrated until I have a wife that has recommitted...
Those of you who followed my journey probably know that from my wifes perspective, I didnt do a good job in showing her that she is sexually attractive to me.
Ae have an awesome relationship and get along superbly. We do everything together and dont engage in many love busters towards each other. We share (or shared) common goals in life as far as family etc..
I just didnt show enough 'passion' as far as making love to my wife etc...
Now, I can blame it on depression, or stress, ir low t, or a host of other issues. But there really was no excuse. If I wasnt in the mood, or too depressed or whatever, I should have still found other ways to show her how much she means to me, and show her how I find her sexy etc...
But I didnt.
Now,.I have learned that the hard way. And I have spent many months reading up and learning about passion and desire etc and how to show it to the person you love. I have learned ways in which you can build up sexual tension between yourself and yoir wife and how doing so can take live making to another level. And how passionate sex once a week is more fulfiling than boring sex once a day. So I have a better undwrstanding of why frequency didnt make up for quality for my wife, and how to remedy that.
All I need now is a recommitted wife in order to see if u can pull it off!
Without her 'allowing',me the opportunity for sexual contact, I cannot demonstrate what I have learned.
Hence the need to rely on game play, or natural laws of attraction or however you want to state it. If I can just create some primal desire in my wife (desire for me that is, ahe has no problem with desire for another man) then I can demonstrate the 'new' me.
Of course I have also learned plenty of relationship and communucation stuff that I CAN show, and I have been doing that. But the deal breaker for her was passion and im having a hard time figuring out how to demonstrate that without having her WANT to do the deed.
But you guys I think are right to caution people about tge difference between attracting someone foe the first time, and re attracting a spouse...
In 'a mans guide to great relationships' the author made an awesome point....
'women like adventurous guys. To a woman you just,met, the fact that you ride your motor.cycle without a helmet and drive fast is probably exciting and a turn on. To the woman you are married too, and have kids with, it is just reckless and immature. What works for dating is not the same asas what works in a commited relationship with kids involved'.
Thata not an exact quote because I dont have the book handy, but you get the point.
If I can just create some primal desire in my wife (desire for me that is, she has no problem with desire for another man) then I can demonstrate the 'new' me.
Maybe you trying so hard to drum up desire is actually making you less desirable?
I wonder how hard these guys she finds desirable are trying to create desire. My guess is nowhere near as hard as you.
I think you are absolutely right. Which is why I kind of gave up trying to impress her about 3 months ago. And I get the sense im moving up the ladder quicker now!
oh what a complicated thing attraction is!
Im just working in being happy with myself. Being comfortable in my own skin. Being successful at my business. I am friendly to her of course, but the natural result of the thing that happrns naturally to lbs which is to start giving up (or detaching) is that you become more attractive.
The balance is tricky though. How do yoi not get so confident, so comfortable with yourself, and so optimistic for your future, without closing the door om your marriage. I think that is a fear that we lbs have. We want our marriage and want our family and so dont want to be divorcees, that we are afraid of gaining independence and actually rnjoying it! That seems to be how so many stories end.
Perhaps someone can give a small run down on some attractive traits to develop. as starsky implied, it may be handy to have some re attraction skills in our bag of tricks.
starsky, care to expand?
Many WAS's bring up the fact that they can't forget what happened before, etc. And many really try to deal with the issues on their own but not in a way that the LBS realizes is very serious. Not in every case, but sometimes.
The LBS can change as much as they want, but it takes "acceptance" and "forgiveness" and "understanding" from the WAS to lower the walls they've built up to even see the LBS as attractive on all levels (physically, mentally, emotionally, etc.)
Therefore it goes beyond just "attraction".
I am sure that what you are saying is true. Nothing we do to improve ourselves has any guarantee to make any difference at all in our situation with our was. But I don't see how making yourself more attractive in general can hurt. It seems like you are saying that we can't focus on the more relevant things, if we also do things to make ourselves more attractive in general. Why does it have to be one or the other and not both?
Yes I know NLP, and it's not relevant to my point. Many WAS's bring up the fact that they can't forget what happened before, etc. And many really try to deal with the issues on their own but not in a way that the LBS realizes is very serious. Not in every case, but sometimes.
The LBS can change as much as they want, but it takes "acceptance" and "forgiveness" and "understanding" from the WAS to lower the walls they've built up to even see the LBS as attractive on all levels (physically, mentally, emotionally, etc.)
Therefore it goes beyond just "attraction".
yes.
"In no way includes" . . . no.
Starsky
Attraction is in the eye of the beholder. and most times it's in the mind of the beholder. It's not usually physical appearance so much as an aura, it comes from inside, the IT factor.
So you become the best you you can be and the S may or may not be attracted. We have to remember that there is a history with the S, usually one that was hurtful. They have to get over that before they ever look our way again. SM, you could look like and "be" George Clooney but if your wife has been hurt deeply too many times, you're toast.
So be as attractive as you want to be or can be, just have no expectations of it changing the heart of your spouse. It can't hurt, no one likes to be with an uninteresting slob.
The balance is tricky though. How do yoi not get so confident, so comfortable with yourself, and so optimistic for your future, without closing the door om your marriage. I think that is a fear that we lbs have. We want our marriage and want our family and so dont want to be divorcees, that we are afraid of gaining independence and actually rnjoying it! That seems to be how so many stories end.
Would you really hold yourself back from having a great life to remain married to a woman who doesn't want to be married to you?
That seems to be how so many stories end.
Would you really hold yourself back from having a great life to remain married to a woman who doesn't want to be married to you? [/quote]
Starsky
But I don't see how making yourself more attractive in general can hurt. It seems like you are saying that we can't focus on the more relevant things, if we also do things to make ourselves more attractive in general. Why does it have to be one or the other and not both?
After BD we're all pretty beat down and have shattered self-esteem. DB'ing says we need to exude PMA and make ourselves into the spouse only a fool would leave, but how do you do that when you have no self-esteem? That's where the thing about making ourselves more attractive comes into play. Working out and adding some muscle, losing weight if we need to, buying new clothes, getting a tan, getting new perfume/ cologne, all of these things have a superficial impact at best on a WAS. But they make us feel better about US. We like what we see in the mirror, we like the looks we get from the opposite sex, and that translates directly into PMA and confidence. It's that PMA and confidence that makes the WAS wonder what's going on. Typically the WAS is unhappy due to all the turmoil inside them, when they see a happy LBS they just don't get it, because walking was supposed to make the WAS happy, not the LBS! This can help the WAS to realize that maybe the LBS isn't the source of all their unhappiness after all.
Anotherstander,.that is an excellent point.
Labug and starsky,.no I dont believe anyone would want to stay married to someone who doesnt want to be married to them.
I think what all lbs do is to try to hold on to the desire to reconcille for as long as they can. For obvious reasons such as divorced life sux in many ways, shared custody of kids, effect it has on kids (history repeating itself like my wife repeating what her mom did), wanting to fix what you messed up, avoiding the feeling that you failed etc etc there are as,many reasons to hold on as long as possible as there are WAS's.
Plus I believe when you love someone, you give them the chance to correct their mistakes.
The saddest stories are when the WAS realizes what they have done but the lbs has moved in and found someone else. Exchange of the kids or any other contact can be awkward and a harsh wake up call of the reality of the situation.
Just my opinion. I think im not alone in thinking divorce is best avoided, if possible.
The saddest stories are when the WAS realizes what they have done but the lbs has moved in (on?) and found someone else. Exchange of the kids or any other contact can be awkward and a harsh wake up call of the reality of the situation.
Just my opinion. I think im not alone in thinking divorce is best avoided, if possible.
That's another reason why you shouldn't date during or immediately after all this. If you can't be happy and content on your own, you're doing it wrong. Our spouses deserve a substantial opportunity to figure it out and re-commit... well, at least that's how I feel. YMMV.
I think im not alone in thinking divorce is best avoided, if possible.
I happen to share that view. Who advocated it?
Starsky
The saddest stories are when the WAS realizes what they have done but the lbs has moved in (on?) and found someone else.
What makes you think that WAS will ever regret seeking separation or divorce?
From what i have read here, most WAS thinks it is for the best.
"What makes you think that WAS will ever regret seeking separation or divorce?
From what i have read here, most WAS thinks it is for the best."
That shows how little you know and understand. It happens all the time. I personally know many couples who have reconciled here and in real life. And the WAS's do regret their actions.
If you don't think this is possible, then there is no sense you trying to save your marriage is there?
There is hope. But you have to believe it first.
That shows how little you know and understand. It happens all the time. I personally know many couples who have reconciled here and in real life. And the WAS's do regret their actions.
No. Seriously I don't know much.
WAS regrets their action?
It's hard to imagine how. After all, leaving their LBS is what they wanted.
Its what they THINK they need at the time. If life without their spouse turns out to be significantly different to the fantasy in their head, it only makes sense that they would regret it and want back in to the marriage.
If you have moved on too quickly, you may miss out on this. Which is why you hold on to that hope for as long as you can...within reason.
But your marriage had to have been somewhat good and as 25 always says 'they must believe that marriage to you could be better than it was before'.
If you were abusive or engaged in any other huge love busters, this may never happen. Mostly it is in marriages that were pretty darn good, just not as good as a fantasy.
Back in March I was having a conversation with my w about separating our stuff. There was a piece of furniture that we both wanted. I let her have that piece of furniture. To me it wasn't worth arguing over. I didn't actually say much to her during that conversation but she got very upset at one point. Since I didn't say much, I asked her what had made her so upset. She told me that it was how I was communicating with her; my nonverbal language. Since then I have made a point to be more self aware of my body language, choice of words, and speech patterns. Back then she didn't want to be in the same room with me. I realized that I needed to work on my ability to communicate especially when I was having a disagreement with someone. This endeavor became a 180 for me. The path led me to learning about the psychology of human attraction and charisma. That is the point of this thread. When responding on this thread, I would like to ask that everyone stay as positive as possible and not personally attack each other. Also please stay on topic.
Back in March I was having a conversation with my w about separating our stuff. There was a piece of furniture that we both wanted. I let her have that piece of furniture. To me it wasn't worth arguing over. I didn't actually say much to her during that conversation but she got very upset at one point. Since I didn't say much, I asked her what had made her so upset. She told me that it was how I was communicating with her; my nonverbal language. Since then I have made a point to be more self aware of my body language, choice of words, and speech patterns. Back then she didn't want to be in the same room with me. I realized that I needed to work on my ability to communicate especially when I was having a disagreement with someone. This endeavor became a 180 for me. The path led me to learning about the psychology of human attraction and charisma. That is the point of this thread. When responding on this thread, I would like to ask that everyone stay as positive as possible and not personally attack each other. Also please stay on topic.
Hmmm, too much to ask I guess?
Starsky
Hmmm, too much to ask I guess?
Starsky
I would seem so...
It seems like many of us find ourselves using the LRT. We are separated and making the most of our interactions. We back off; we GAL we do our 180s; we sit back and watch what happens. We assess what happens and we make adjustments.
Here are the guidelines per DR for when our wayward spouse becomes curious or reaches out:
· Be loving in return, but not overly excited or enthusiastic.
· Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all.
· Do not ask any questions about your future together.
· Be vague when asked questions about the changes in you. Say that you are just thinking things through.
· Continue to be upbeat.
· Do not say “I love you.”
· Resist getting into conversations about your marriage.
· Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave or separate from each other at the end of an activity. You set the tone for going your separate ways.
Here are a few things that I have found worked for me in the past and I am going to implement them again.
· When talking on the phone, end the conversation first
· When texting, end the conversation first. If you have been going back and forth in a text exchange say “got to run to a meeting” (or something like that) as your last text.
o I read somewhere that you want to leave your love interest wanting more. When I first started dating my W, I had younger kids and would end chatting conversations to tend to them. She told me that it drove her nuts because she was never ready for the conversation to end. If you are naturally busy, then you will naturally do this. But if you have a lot of time on your hands you need to fake it.
· Mirror your text responses in length and take at least as long to respond as your wayward spouse.
· Look fantastic when you see your WAS, but don’t look like you’re trying too hard.
· Be relaxed and cool
Please add to the list above.
Keep doing what works, and stop doing what doesn’t.
My personal solution oriented goal is to spend more in person time with my w (once a week would feel like progress) and avoid a just-friends situation (interactions are flirty and not just emotional support).
What if spouse does not reach out?
My W do not call anymore.
She does not text at all.
Not interested in any form of conversation.
What to do now?
Planet - here is what I did.
Step 1. I went 3 or 4 weeks with minimal communication. I cut everything very short and was businesslike. I ignored any communication from w that was unnecessary. I took this time to work on me and gal.
Step 2. I initiated simple friendly text messages with w. (if she does not respond then return to step 1 for a while). My first text was something like. "Heard (song) on radio, thought of you. Hope you're well." Another text was "went to (concert) on beach, reminded me of time we saw (another concert)."
After a few text every week w would initiate texts too. Soon we would have conversations by text. Just small talk. I would make sure I ended the conversations.
Step 3. I began including intimate memories in my texts. At one point w told me that she would always love me ... W began initiating contact. Wanting to meet at gym or get drinks or something. .. At one point w gave me the ilybnilwy speech, but I kept going. A while later w agreed to go to Las Vegas with me for a weekend. After she agreed to go to Vegas our contact decreased and she finally canceled two days before.
Now I am back to where we have contact by text, but w's enthusiasm seems to change daly. But at least I have contact. And we did have a good in person meeting 3 weeks ago.
I want to talk about some related ideas starting with want is listed as rule 24 in Sandi2's rule (I tried to find the original source in DR, but gave up)
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
Many of "the rules" could follow from the concept of pulling back.
A related concept is "whoever cares the least in a relationship is in control". Does this have to be true? Could you act as if you care less and gain control?
But are there things we can DO to pull back? What about being the one to always end conversations? (Ending phone conversations is part of rule 2 btw) but end all conversation .. Phone, in person, text, or otherwise
What else can we DO to pull back?
I don't understand your question.
You can basically pull back by GAL and detaching.
"A related concept is "whoever cares the least in a relationship is in control". Does this have to be true?
Not necessarily. I've seen it happen both ways.
"Could you act as if you care less and gain control?"
Gain control over whom? Yourself or your spouse? Either way you can't control what your spouse is going to do or how they are going to react.
The better rule to follow is to do what works. If giving space helps, do some of that, if staying closer helps, do that. Every sitch is different. Therefore every action is different. One LBS might end the conversation early and their WAS might "wonder" what the LBS is doing, and in another case the LBS might end it early and the WAS really doesn't care or is happy that the LBS has found someone else.
Did you say you were an engineer?
All of what you say could be true and it can be untrue, depending on the situation. I just read Bond's post, pretty much what I just said.
Leave her be, let her figure it her life out.
Not an engineer, but I get your point. Thanks. .. Here is what I understand to be true.
We try something new that we think might help in our situation. If we get a positive result, then keep doing that. If we get a negative result, then stop.
I am just looking for ideas of things to try; things that have worked for others in similar situatuations...
Backing off and letting her figure it out, creating a life for yourself separate from W, being so happy in that life that it exudes from every pore, realizing that she's not necessary for you to be happy.
A quote, don't remember the source:
People have got to walk the path and figure it out on their own. Pippen never wore the ring, but he supported Frodo the ENTIRE WAY in his journey to take the ring back to Rivendell.
Don’t do the work for others, or else they will never learn. Support them and hold them up, but we’ve all got our own karma to work our on our own
Support doesn't mean you are physically supporting or even physically present. You can support from your heart and be 1000s of miles away.
Those are things that work and sometimes marriages are saved.
I want to talk about some related ideas starting with want is listed as rule 24 in Sandi2's rule (I tried to find the original source in DR, but gave up)
24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!
Many of "the rules" could follow from the concept of pulling back.
A related concept is "whoever cares the least in a relationship is in control". Does this have to be true? Could you act as if you care less and gain control?
But are there things we can DO to pull back? What about being the one to always end conversations? (Ending phone conversations is part of rule 2 btw) but end all conversation .. Phone, in person, text, or otherwise
What else can we DO to pull back?
I'm not sure if this is even from DR/DB. The "push/pull" dynamic is discussed in many, many relationship books -- Men are From Mars, Women are from Venus" comes to mind -- but I don't recall this being strictly a DB concept. It's IMPLIED in the "no pursuit!" DB concept, however.
I think it's just basic human dynamics: people want what they can't have; they value most what is most difficult to acquire.
Starsky
OK, I'm confused. I thought Pippin wore the ring when Jordan helped him win it? Maybe three of 'em?
Starsky
The Lord of The Rings and the Chicago Bulls from two decades ago in the same thought?.. Wow
I have just begun a period of NC with my w in my situation. Who knows how long it will last.
In the mean time I thought I would reopen this thread.
Here is a thought ... What if certain aspects of people's situations could be roughly categorized. Suppose that for people in category A, we can see that doing action X tends to lead to a more positive outcome than not doing action X.
There is already some of this in the DR and DB books. But more could be done. There are enough situations being detailed in this forum and others that some very useful research could be performed.
Thoughts?