So I figure I am long overdue for an update.
I think I have been intentionally staying away from the boards lately to try to focus more on life and moving on as best I can. Sometimes I think I start reading other peoples hard times and my heart goes out to them so badly that it takes me back to where I have been…..sadness, bad feelings and all. Plus, there really has not been a ton to update recently. Not a lot of motion, movement or discussion. Just moving along day to day, week to week I think.
First off, the trip with S to San Diego was fantastic. We had the best time – it was truly special and I will always remember it even if he does not. As noted, I hired a photog to do some work for us on the beach and they shots turned out awesome. In fact, the photog liked them so much she put S prominently on her homepage. It was a small thing, but a “proud daddy” moment nonetheless. While we were there we went to SeaWorld, spent time on the beach, hung out on Crystal Pier and watched people fish and surf, had some great meals together, had a picnic at sunset on our balcony that overlooked the ocean……just had a blast. We bonded so well that it was heart-breaking when we had to split up. He cried when I handed him over, and I for sure had tears in my eyes during the drive back home. As I have said before, it is the worst catch 22 ever – the more time you spend with him the more you simply fall in love – and the harder it is to say good-bye when your time is over. It was the best vacation I have had in awhile – I did my best to make it all about him…about us.
Interesting story to note. While we were in the can going from the airport in SD to our hotel, out of nowhere S looks up at me out of the blue and faintly, quietly says “daddy, I miss you when you’re gone and I’m at mommy’s house”. It ripped the heart right out of me to see the look in his eyes when he said that…….it took everything in me to hold back tears. I just gave him a hug and said “thank you for saying that, I miss you too when you’re gone. Maybe one day life will be a little different and we won’t have to miss each other as much”. Those words have stayed with me a lot.
I did hear from XW off and on while we were there….she just wanted to know how he was doing and asked for a picture every now and then. She said she was “grateful” that he was able to have that experience with me.
As for things on the XW front, not too much going on there. We are basically at the 7 week (or so) mark since she left the house for the second time. There has been no hatred, animosity or anger expressed at all and our interactions, though not frequent, are positive and supportive. There have been 1 or 2 times when I have fouled up and simply told her that I miss her and S when they are away….but not too many of those (hey, I am weak at times….mornings are really emotional for me without my old “squad”).
She turned 40 in late July and went to the bay area with S to visit one of her girlfriends. I got her a small gift and a card from me and one from S – she got me an AMAZINGLY nice present for my 40th when she was back at the house so I sort of felt obligated in one way or another. Still, there was no reaching out from me while she was away – I kept very much to myself and let her have her space and time with S. Once or twice she sent over a few pictures of S playing on the beach.
Something I don’t fully understand though….maybe you guys get it more than I. There have been about 3 or so incidents where she has had to come to the house to pick up or drop off S. She will NOT set foot in the place…at all. Yesterday while she was dropping him off she asked to see his backpack for school so she would be able to identify it while she was picking him up. She stood on the front porch like she was Papa Johns driver. I said “come on it” very politely and opened the door a bit wider for her. She said “no, I’ll just wait out here”. I will admit that sort of stung a tiny bit. I mean, when my PARENTS were living there I totally understood why she would not want to come in….she would barely leave her car or the driveway….THAT made sense. But why now? I do not pose some kind of threat to her or anything and, as noted, there has been no hatred spewed back and forth during all of this. Is it memories? Is it a coping mechanism? Is it her way of keeping her walls up?
While she was living back at the house we made a list of things we needed to do – upgrade – around the house. I have started to do those things without her. I recently shared a picture of the wood floors I had put in and she simply replied “They’re awesome. I’m happy for you.” – that felt….weird. “I’m happy for you” just didn’t seem like a fitting thing to say. I know I am probably being too analytical. But maybe THAT is part of the reason she won’t cross the front door? The house is starting to take shape with some of the things SHE asked for and it hard to internalize? Meh – who knows….it’s not my problem – it’s just hard to understand.
So I joined a popular dating site. I didn’t have the strongest drive to do so, but I did it anyway because I felt it was/is key to unhitch and move on along with my next chapter. It’s been a mixed bag – I have been out on three dates. Two were great – one turned out to be….well, let’s just say “south of stable”. I’ve had some good people reach out to me and I have a few more dates to schedule…..but I have also been stood up, to. A friendly reminder that I don’t really LOVE this process – but I am OK with it. I don’t think anyone is capable of hurting me emotionally right now. It’s not that I am dead inside, but rather I know what REAL relationship pain is now and everything else seems rather petty with that as my new benchmark. One woman that I went out with was really interested in my everything that I learned from my D . She was really impressed with the fact that I was very open and honest about all that I felt I did wrong and all that I have learned. She, too, was divorced. Her telling quote was “I don’t understand what else your XW wanted. I would have killed for my XH to acknowledge ANY errors on his part and work to make things right again”. That was flattering and painful all at the same time – but the validation from someone else felt good.
Well, folks, that’s most it for now. I am doing OK and managing my feelings fairly well. Also still giving XW space and not pursuing (with the exception of a few backslides along the way). I still miss them both tremendously, especially my little guy – he is the center of my world right now. But I am adjusting.
Crimson
Ah, I'm so happy you both had a great time. Thanks for giving an update.
For me, I no longer feel comfortable in H's apartment because it is not my space. It is a trigger for me and negative emotions, so no longer will stay there without him or D because it does not feel right anymore. Maybe this is what your wife is feeling? It triggers emotions that she cannot process right now?
I joined, and got off of, a dating site recently. Social experiment number one made me realize just what I wanted in a date, relationship, bf, whatever...and it wasn't that lmao!! Very valuable experience for me in terms of kind of, like you, checking it off and realizing I need an intellectual, emotional connection to be interested in someone..pretty isn't good enough !!
what Gabbys' mom said.
The wood floor pics were weird of you to send. Her reply was better than what I would have come up with. ONE way she could have seen your text was in a negative light, as if you were telling her "another thing to miss" and punishing her. Wasn't this something she had wanted to do while you were married but you refused? So now you are showing her?
Let her hear of the changes from your son or see them from her tiny view from the crack of your door.
If you want, you can say something if it ever rains there, like "Come in out of the rain/dust storm", etc.
OR stand outside the house like you "get" that she's not comfortable...I probably would not do that, but I could see why you might.
I am also glad you have had some decent dates. Just hearing from "normal" women that you are a decent guy DOES HELP.
When I was dating as a separated woman, I met two weird guys, one good guy and one very good guy. Looking back, it makes me feel pretty good to know that while I am with the right man, I think
there are other men out there who would also be good company. Some of them have flaws my h does not have, but some do not have his flaws.
Who knows what might have happened if we had continued? I don't mean that I have second thoughts. I mean to say, even if you and your ex wife don't work out
(and the longer she goes without working on herself, the less likely it is you'll want a reconciliation)
there are other women out there, who have something to give you and whom you could love. That's it.
Also, don't dismiss the concept of another woman loving your son like her own. What will that do to him? It'll give him another source of adult affirmation, that's what. IT's a good thing, not a bad thing. Same goes for OM, if your wife ever opens up to one.
You sound mostly great Crimson...congrats on the trip especially. And please, truly,
go dim.
on the dating site I went to, I ended up conversing awhile before I'd give my number out (I'd get theirs)
and then only after a few conversations that went well, would I see someone.
Never slept with anyone either. Yes once I wanted to but knew I was not ready. He was alright with that, I think...
anyhow, other than random meetings in a grocery store (OR CHURCH)
or blind dates (and my friends are horrible at choosing for me, but my sisters are good at it)
the online thing is the main way to do it. I hate meeting a man in a bar. If that's where HE is looking, we didn't want the same things.
In short, Keep at it! Which one are you going to see again?
well Crimson
what's new?
Keep us posted please. Hope all is very well with you. TRULY.
Hey there 25 and others. Thanks for checking in.
I haven't really posted much or been on the boards a lot because not a lot is new. I don't think anything has slid into decline, per se -- but nothing much has changed. Our interactions remain friendly and kind, but not terribly frequent. Depending on how we manage the schedule, the only time I HAVE to see her is every other Sunday -- and that only lasts for a few minutes. Though brief, they are kind and we catch up a little bit. Outside of that, there is a text every once and awhile - mostly about S...things he says or does.
Last weekend she texted me on a Friday night about an event that she coordinated for her school that got her introduced to the mayor and other local "important" people. She was clearly very excited about it and just wanted to share it with someone. We had a little back and forth about it and that was about it. I have basically avoided church and other places that we may bump into each other.
A few weeks ago during a text exchange see told me that she "feels like a loner in this world". It broke my heart to hear that but I didn't explore it too much and just validated her feelings and moved on.
Speaking of church - a *SLIGHTLY* amazing thing happened two weeks ago. My parents went to church and XW was there with S. S saw my parents (I'm assuming) and made a bee-line for them. They all ended up sitting together and getting along (heard from both sides). At one point, there was a part of the service where you had to turn to the person sitting next to you and tell them that they were "beautiful". My mom actually had to say it to XW....and was fine with it. For all those that have followed my situation THAT is a big step. I don't tihnk anyone will be coming over tea anything soon, but the fact that they all sat together is pretty big...actually, it's really big. Maybe part of a slow, gradual thaw. That Sunday (presumably long after the service) My ex MIL (with whom I still get along) call my parents to talk, but they weren't home. I'm guessing XW told them about the church service. XW was smiling ear to ear when she told me....especially about the "you are beautiful" part. "Can you believe she said that to me????" Was her response to me.
Bottom line, she is still one her side of the fence and I am still on mine more or less...it's been about 3 months since she moved back to her place. And today is almost the 2 year anniversary of BD.
I continue to date here and there, but am no longer on a dating site. Mostly just hanging out with a few people I met there. It keeps me busy and "out". But at the same time I know I have not cleared a lot of room out in my heart for a serious relationship right now. Plus side of that is that whenever someone is no longer interested or stands me up I literally do not care. I feel ZERO pain in it at all....my friend and I joke that I am "partially dead" inside - but I don't know if I am joking 100%. My ability to really bond with another person on a romantic level seems near nil at the moment.
I'm still doing really well with my son. I adore him to the ends of the Earth. I try to make our time together as meaningful as possible and I try to let him know that he is loved by me whether he is with me or not. And yes, I still get tears in my eyes when I drop him off or my time with him is over. I miss him so much at times it feel like my oxygen supply is getting pinched. XW feels the same way and has said as much to me.
Well, that's all really. Nothing too interesting with the exception of the deal with XW and parents at church.
I hope everyone is well and I reamin grateful for all that everyone has done for me in terms of helping me navifate my way through this. Hard to believe it has been two years already.
Crimson
Hi Crimson. Hope you are well
Crimson,
please keep us posted anyhow. There are a lot of reasons for me asking. Also I think the whole dating thing, is helpful.
For the most part when I dated during the sep, I learned two important things (and a ton of hilarious not so important things)...
One, I learned that there are good men out there, who could love and be loved. There are also a lot of wounded men, some bitter, some not. (The bitter ones are not very enticing, fyi. I was surprised at how angry some of them seem to be at women in general, and how they shared that with me. ).
Two, I learned that my choice of h was a pretty good one b/c we are well suited for each other, usually. He's smarter than most of the men I met, and is not threatened by being around a partner as educated as he is.
Mostly, It's good news all around really.
SO how does it relate to YOU?
Crimson, I think when you have been OR become a good catch, (And you are now, whether you were before) it shows.
So when your w begins really dating, imo, you'll be more missed than not.
She'll be comparing them to you...and few, if any, will outscore you.
When you really begin to date, opening to the possibility of letting someone into your heart, you will love again. You will be loved again. Probably by a healthier woman, b/c most LBSers who do their work,
Crimson, take your eye off of her for the near future, maybe forever. Life is short.
As I approach another class reunion and see fewer of my friends each time, I am again reminded that Life is so very short.
You are a man who is meant to be loved.
Keep your eye on your own heart, mending it so it can open to another, and your beautiful son.
The more you focus on your ex w, the longer it will take to build your new life.
Again, please keep us posted...we care.
You are an example to many people here. I think you'll continue to be.
Hey folks - been awhile. I still drop in and browse from time to time but don't post a lot at the moment. Truthfully, I don't know if many people that were familiar with my ordeal are still around and/or post much.
Things have remained basically the same, all things considered we get along fairly well. In my random dating here and there (and conversations with friends) I am beginning to learn that a lot of divorced people literally despise one another...a lot. Sure, we have our dust-ups, but there has been little animosity.
We have been butting heads about time during the holidays - it's a sensitive topic. The last two holiday seasons I have given up a big chunk of my time so she can go to IA with our little guy. This year I think she approached it as an expectation or entitlement - and when I declined, she was angry. We are working it out, but I have no grand plans of giving up my time.
As far as dating goes, I have concluded that I need to stop. I am not ready at all yet. I have been out with a pretty decent number of people and whenever something doesn't work out I don't have feelings of sadness....rather, I have a feeling of relief because in the back of my head I knew I was not able to commit to the extent that someone would want. Perhaps in time I will get there - and I hate being lonely, but I think I am still healing. For now, I am content focusing as much as my love as I can on my son. I get back 3x what I give there. For now, I know I am just not in a place to love someone else or to let them love me....not yet anyway. I hope to get there.
I have made some pretty decent progress with my new counselor. She is honestly the best I have had in this process and is helping me identify a lot of things that I have not seen. Moreover, she is helping me learning the difference between "moving on" and "moving forward" (discussed here a lot) - it's been good. She has also started me on EMDR (Google it) - it's a little different for me, but I am open to new things in the name of getting better.
More than anything in this process, my heart is still shattered about all the time I miss with my son. I know I have said this a lot already, but we have bonded so much and gotten so close. He hates leaving my house and wants to stay and not go to her place (not bragging - just saying). I hate being away from him, and it hasn't gotten any easier. I dropped him off today at pre-school and he couldn't stop hugging me...I had to peel him off and hand him to his teacher while he was still reaching out to me. I burst into tears the moment I got to the car. Because of work travel I won't see him again until Thanksgiving at the earliest. My heart is sunk.
Today I found myself asking God what the point of this is now. I get that to this point there was a LOT that I had to learn about myself, who I was, what I was doing, love, communication, and being a father. I have come so far up that mountain and have made so many changes. Yet, I am still in pain and still without my son. I am sure there is a point, a reason to it - but at times I wish it was clear so I knew I wasn't suffering without my son, my family, for nothing. I'm not cursing God at all....just confused and well, in pain a lot.
All in all I am good, just trying to find a rhythm to life. I would LOVE to tell everyone here that I don't STILL miss my ex - I do. I would love to say that I didn't often think of missing my family...I do. But I am coping. At least I know that I have grown in this process. And as a song once said, "we grow in dirt".
Crimson
I was going to do a Where's Crimson post just this morning, hadn't gotten to it yet.
I'm still familiar with your your sitch. Thanks for the update, Crimson. Keep strong, keep striving.
Good to hear from you, Crimson! We are several that followed you and I think I am not the only one that finds it good to hear from you!
All the best!
"We grow in dirt.."
Love Love LOVE it
Hugs to you my friend
She has also started me on EMDR (Google it) - it's a little different for me, but I am open to new things in the name of getting better.
Crimson,
Good to hear you’re still moving forward
I have done EMDR and I think it is great, it seems to work better for those who can remember and can visualize, but can work for anyone. One thing I would suggest is going into EMDR with a goal or plan, otherwise your just stirring up emotions.
Best of luck.
I am humbled that some folks still remember me.
BUG!!!!! "Pieceing 9/13"??? That makes me soooo happy - I hope it is going well....
KP - "We Grow in Dirt" is a song on John Popper's (lead singer of Blues Traveler) solo album, "Zygote". Good song....good album.
JP - EMDR has been sorta "trippy" but helpful. My counselor is developing a plan around it for me for sure. Luckily (or unluckily) I am one of those people that can remember and visualize....that has been painful these years, but maybe EMDR can make that a good thing.
Thanks all for dropping by...and remembering me. I appreciate all of you and all that you guys have done. Sure, I am still kind of mess every now and then - but the folks here "found me and took me in" at my worst and made all of the difference.
Gonna keep fighting the good fight.
Crimson
Is good to hear from you Crimson. I was thinking about you yesterday and wondering how you were.
I wish you all the best
Crimson,
Our stories follow similar timelines and are in similar spots right now. I'm glad to see you back and am sorry this continues to be a difficult time for you.
Regarding asking God "why?", He never promises we'll ever know why things happen (1Cor.13:12), we just have to have faith that He is good and is working for the good of those who love Him (Rom.8:28).
I know it's easier to go through trials when we know what the outcome will be or what the purpose of all the suffering is for, but try and view it as conditioning yourself to really appreciate and impact the time you DO have with your son, and to endure well with the time you do not. Maybe you still have lessons to learn, or maybe you will be able to keep some other married couple from suffering as you have suffered.
I recently told a group of men (who are mostly all married) that I wanted them to learn from the mistakes that I made so they don't repeat them. That I didn't want anyone to have to go through the pain and turmoil and suffering that I went through, and said "I don't mind being the person you look at and say 'I don't want to be like him,' because the truth of the matter is, you don't want to end up like me...divorced and not living under the same roof as your family." There is a lot you can do with the lessons you've learned!
You said it well: keep fighting the good fight!
Action item: go out of your way to do something nice for someone else today.
-PM
I recently told a group of men (who are mostly all married) that I wanted them to learn from the mistakes that I made so they don't repeat them. That I didn't want anyone to have to go through the pain and turmoil and suffering that I went through, and said "I don't mind being the person you look at and say 'I don't want to be like him,' because the truth of the matter is, you don't want to end up like me...divorced and not living under the same roof as your family." There is a lot you can do with the lessons you've learned!
-PM
I feel the same. It's a shame we don't learn from others lessons. What you said to them is good and if they felt what you have felt they would do what is needed. Sadly they will have to find their own way because to them it won't happen to them until it does.
You know, PM, I do the same things with people. I talk to friends of mine (and a family member or two) that are struggling and try to show them the realities of some of the decisions they may be contemplating. I also encourage folks to take a good look at themselves and embrace the somewhat liberating power of saying "I was wrong and I can/will do better". I tell them to listen to even the smallest of complaints from a spouse...especially if it is repeated. Because, as you noted, you don't want to be me. If folks can stay together and learn from my pain at least it was worth something. I honestly wouldn't even wish this upon someone I dislike.
Crimson
Crimson,
It has been awhile since I have been on the boards. I just caught up with your sitch on this thread. You seem to be doing well all things considered.
I'm especially glad that you are standing up for your time with your S during the holidays. It is interesting how people get upset when they don't get their way and have a sense of entitlement. The line has to be drawn, or it will continue to happen.
I can relate to much of what you have gone through or are going through. One thing you mentioned that you have learned while dating, is that many people who are divorced cannot stand their X. That is the beauty of DB'ing. No matter the outcome of our respective situations, we improve immensely from an individual standpoint. Of course, if we choose to put in the work.
Just wanted to stop by. Think I will be back often to pay it forward.
Be well my friend.
Peace
Hey LITB -
Glad to see you here. I often check back in to see if you have posted and haven't seen much of anything recently. Notwithstanding, I hope you are well.
Standing my ground was difficult and remains so. Honestly, I still have this mentality that wants to make sure she is happy. But if I look at it objectively, all that does is mkae things worse. I do it because I want her to know that I am a good guy that is STILL willing to work on our family.....but after while, it gets to a point where I think she is just taking because she knows that she can. Honestly, I have given her my time during the holidays and many other times and that hasn't really brought us closer. It has kept the peace and given her what she wants, but she's still in her condo and I am still in the house. This year I realized that what I was doing wasn't moving the ball forward in our relationship.....just leaving my heartsick without my son.
As she was getting upset and saying things like "4 days with my family in IA is not acceptable!" and "he has TWO families"....I was so tempted to say that this was not my choice. Oddly enough (or maybe not so oddly) this whole time there has been no recognition that this is a consequence of the D that she wanted...and our time is dictated by the D decree that she wanted and signed. I have to live with crappy consequences all the time....seems like she tries to shift the burden of it to me when it is her time to suffer. Honestly, I think a lot of this is that she doesn't like being on her own during the holidays. Also not my problem.
It's weird, ya know? Up unti then we were getting along well...we took S trick or treating together....she would talk to me about things going on in her life and vice versa....and then *BOOM* .... she gets angry and blames me.
My new IC has been working with me on some of this stuff and has basically been helping me move forward by encouraging me to stick to my guns and essentially say (peacefully) that I don't like this style of life either and if the day ever comes when you want to discuss living differently, I am open to it. That has been helpful for me.
During the back-and-forth XW said that she would be willing to go with me to my IC "to work through this compromise". I told her that I had made a lot of progress with my IC and did not want to use her for one-off incident resolution. I said it peacefully and told her that if she ever wants to come with me to IC with me or the regular (or even once in awhile) that the invite was there.
Her response was that I was trying to "control" what was discussed in counselling. I.E. "we can't talk about resoliving this incident, but we CAN to about recon" -- which was by no means my intent. She called me doing that "unhealthy".
I don't know...I guess I am venting a bit here since I haven't done it in a bit. She has been barely communicative in recent days and if so, it is with regard to her travel plans for the most part. What's messed up is that I still feel that making her angry is me pushing her away from me. I know that is not healthy, and I am not giving in to it - but it is hard to shake that frame of mind at times.
I hope everyone is well.
Crimson
Hey Crimson,
Good to hear from you.
Doesn't this stink?
Many of us on similar time frames are still here, so don't despair on that front.
What we feel and are going through seems to be pretty normal in that regard.
Best, NLW
Crimson it sounds like you are still walking on egg shells. Be yourself buddy. And have no expectations.
I'm happy that you are doing ok. I know how painful this is but it ain't the end of the world. You could have become superman (I like the matrix characters more) and she wouldn't have cared. I don't know so why worry.
I'm very impressed and proud of u as to how you have grown closer to the little guy. Life does get better once u let it
Hey LITB -
Glad to see you here. I often check back in to see if you have posted and haven't seen much of anything recently. Notwithstanding, I hope you are well.
I am well. I needed to redirect my focus on being a single father and utilize my extra time by volunteering. Another project that I am in the midst of, is starting a “Dad’s” program at my children’s school. The whole premise is to encourage other dads/father figures to be more involved with their children. In turn, it keeps me accountable. It has been good for me and my kids.
My sitch (still married, but separated) has remained status quo for awhile, however I am starting to make efforts to move it forward. I just needed to be ready to do it. By what I can gather, I will be single. Of course this happened before and I thought the same thing. Now I have more tools and understanding of what to look for. Anyway...enough about me.
Standing my ground was difficult and remains so. Honestly, I still have this mentality that wants to make sure she is happy. But if I look at it objectively, all that does is mkae things worse. I do it because I want her to know that I am a good guy that is STILL willing to work on our family.....but after while, it gets to a point where I think she is just taking because she knows that she can. Honestly, I have given her my time during the holidays and many other times and that hasn't really brought us closer. It has kept the peace and given her what she wants, but she's still in her condo and I am still in the house. This year I realized that what I was doing wasn't moving the ball forward in our relationship.....just leaving my heartsick without my son.
I think sometimes we become enablers because of the fear of rocking the boat. They will most likely kick and scream when they don’t get their way. So what? Boundaries need to be set. If there are no boundaries, how are they to be respected?
A couple of things that I want to touch on. You mentioned your mentality of wanting to keep her happy. You can walk on water and it might not be enough. Just like it isn’t our responsibility to teach lessons, it isn’t our responsibility to be burdened with trying to maintain their happiness when they are gone. Our only responsibility is to have a cordial and cooperative co-parenting relationship. And as you know, we are each responsible for our own happiness to begin with. Some people go through life seeking it outside of themselves and then there are others unwilling to dig deep to do the work. It is never ending work.
The other thing, you said that you feel heartsick without your son. That is a huge reason to set those boundaries when it comes to your time with him. I am glad that you are sticking to your guns, because that quality time is irreplaceable. I especially enjoyed that you took him to San Diego. Those are memorable times. Ride the momentum of those good times.
Thanks LITB and other.
Let me preface this by saying I know what I am about to say is not a healthy line of thought and I need to move beyond it. I am just trying to be honest.
That said, I go through moments (and this has been going on since this all began) where I feel as if I need to show her that I have evolved to the point of being aware of her happiness and looking out for it. That is a place where I know failed during our marriage/relationship. I feel as though (and I will say again I need to get over this) there is some level of ownership on my part that I need to show her. And that maybe if she gets it, her mind will change. I KNOW this is "magical" thinking.
I am trying to focus on the moments with my son.....just seems like they are so few at times.
Crimson
Crimson,
Kudos to you for being honest. You have identified an unhealthy behavior that you know needs resolution. What steps have to taken to address it? Or what is your plan of action?
I believe that as long as a WAS can sense that the LBS is there. They continue doing their thing, because there is no incentive for them to change. That's why the LRT can be so effective. Of course you have to be genuinely ready. Otherwise, it doesn't work.
It has to do with the whole "drop the rope" analogy. There is something to be said about that dynamic.
The thing is, you know all of this. You just have to do it.
Crimson, many people out there (and here) are operating from their unmet needs, usually from early in their life. It seems, and this is merely descriptive, your W is acting like a 2 yr old who hasn't gotten her way. Eventually most 2 yr olds learn that they don't always get their way. Some don't and they carry that with them into adulthood.
Until she's able to recognize that and see it as harmful, she won't change. It's all she knows. You can't change her but you can stand your ground. Don't be afraid of her. If she gets mad, she gets mad.
I have empathy for your W, she's an unhappy woman, she's said so herself but she doesn't know how to break out of it. That's hers. She will continue to be unhappy whether he goes to Iowa with her of not. That will not be the magic pill to make her life better.
You however can choose a good life filled with good times, you have the tools.
Just know that she is not your project to fix.
Thanks Bug and GM. You know what's funny? Well, not "funny" - but....during IC this week my IC told me the exact same thing. That it is no longer me....it's her at this point.
I accept that she is not a project to fix, I think I am just trying to pull out of the notion that I need to prove myself to her as "not-the-man-she-left". Seems like she gets it sometimes - and still others she can somehow revert back to "we are toxic and unhealthy". Seems as if as long as I am caving in and giving her what she wants I am a good guy. Not good enough for R or rebuilding - but good. When I stand my ground, well, I am "unhealthy" and manipulative.
Case in point: I sent her a very kind response to why I was keeping my time with S over the holidays. I was VERY, VERY careful not to use "I" and "you" statements. I was careful of the tone and really spoke honestly about my feelings and what I wanted. To make sure she understood that it was not meant to be a scathing or hateful e-mail (even though there was no chance of it being read that way) I concluded by saying "I am saying all of this from a kind and caring place". She said in her e-mail back:
"Please refrain from telling me you are coming from a kind and caring place. That may make you feel better about yourself, but your actions speak otherwise. Kind and caring must mean something different to you than it does to me". It shouldn't have hurt my feelings, but it did.
Oh well....I guess it is her problem at this point. I just wish I didn't have to pay for her problem with time away from my son.
I am doing ok, just reflective.
Crimson
Side note - I haven't heard much of a peep from her since Tuesday when she picked up S. Usually I'd have at least gotten a text from her or something....maybe a picture of the boy. I have to leave town for work tomorrow....I usually get him back Sunday late afternoon but will miss my Sun, Mon, and Tue with his because of work. I won't see him till Thursday....9 days away. Torture.
Funny how the pending Holidays and the related stress have got me back posting here. Oh well, I am grateful for the support.
So this got a little interesting.
XW texted me last night to tell me (in a friendly manner) what her Thanksgiving plans were with S. The following ensued:
Me: I don't mean to be a buzzkill here, but I have him this Thanksgiving.
Her: Not True. You had him last Thanksgiving. I remember because my mother was here and we had to wait to celebrate the day after. Feel free to call her in you aren't remembering.
Me: There was a reason why it waws this way - but I can't remember.
*I pause to find the divorce decree*
Me: Page 19, item 6 of the agreement. I have him for Thanksgiving on odd years....the language states that nothwithstanding I will have him for 2012.
Neither of us are allowed to have him for Thanksgiving AND Christmas. In 2011 you had him for both, so in 2012 I got to have him for both. This year we begin to alternate - you have Christmas, I have Thanksgiving.
*She pauses for awhile*
Her: Do you want to take Christmas this year and I'll take Thanksgiving? I have really been building T-Day up with him.
Me: Knowing that I didn't have Christmas, I've been buidling it up with him, too. I am not prepared right now to decide. However, I know I do not have much time to deliberate. If you need an answer immediately, I will keep him for Thanksgiving.
Her: Sleep on it. I know that your family really gets into Christmas and Christmas Eve - especially since your sister and S's cousins will be here.
*I didn't respond*
This morning I e-mailed her back and said that having had time to think about it I will keep him for Thanksgiving as per the divorce decree. I told her that I had him last Christmas and that it is only fair for her to have him this Christmas. I told her that mentally I had already let go of Christmas this year, and though it is gut-wrenching, I will accpet being without him.
I then hopped on a plane headed back home. When I landed she texted me and said "Is your final decision Thanksgiving, then?". I responded and said "it is".
Sooooo, this is where I struggle. I know that she made plans to travel by car up north a few hours to spend T-day with her friend's family and S - and up until 24 hours ago she was pretty sure that was the plan - period. She did not read the divorce decree. Once again, I feel bad not letting her be happy and have her way. At the same time, I am trying to embrace the fact that her happiness is not my responsibility.
The fact that she texted me to ask if that way my "final decision" even after reading my e-mail tells me that she really, really wanted to take him and is probably struggling not being able to do so. She didn't, however, lash out. She told me that she wasn't going to celebrate Christmas with him until she went to IA with him...so I guess that is why she didn't mmind giving up Christmas...I mean, it sux, but she was willing to do it.
I hate this guys. My heart really hurts.
I derive no pleasure from her unhappiness and certainly not my own. Moreover, I hate that S is in the middle of all of this. Times like this always make be want to ask if this is the "better" she was looking for when she said she wanted better for our S when she dropped the bomb. I keep that notion to myself.
I used to love the holiday with her...and the one holiday we spent together as a family. Now I dread this time of year and I still associate it with loss and pain. It has gotten better - but the joy is almost 100% gone. I just want it to be over and I HATE feeling that way. I am going to give hte best Christmas I can to my son and then be glad it is all over.
In my heart, I hope next year is different.
Crimson
Is your son still 1? (reading your sig line) Because if he's that young, you two are beating each other over the head with odd year even year divorce decree struggling plans and he's in toddler la la land. Makes it sound like it's all about the adults and what they want, and they're willing to stress themselves out and lose their joy in the process of dividing up his time. I really hope you two find a way to relax your grip on how you want things to be.
I think you're right to follow the decree, just think you need to release a lot of the other stuff you've added that creates your emotional state. Like caring if she's "struggling" about not getting her way, or dreading the time of year because it's not what you wanted... let it go for your little boy's sake and follow the decree as best you can.
^^ I was about to disagree with you Ad, but then saw where that was going and couldn't agree more.
Crim, I know you see the pattern of being the good guy when she gets her way and the bad guy when she doesn't, but i also know it doesn't make you feel any better recognizing it.
I think once this boundary is set and enforced (ie Thanksgiving) you will find that want for W's happiness a little less powerful than before. You will find the next time you need to enforce a boundary a little easier because she will begin to realize you can't be manipulated anymore.
Happy holiday my friend. You are a great Dad.
In my heart, I hope next year is different.
Don't
hope it's different, MAKE it different.
-PM
I should update my sig....he is 3 now. He doesn't fully get it yet - but the pieces are coming slowly into focus for him. By next year I figure he'll be more clued in.
I am glad that I have held the line with my boundaries. It is difficult, but I know it is best. Many here have said that I have gone out of my way to keep XW from having to feel all of the fall-out from her decision to leave - and I think you have been right. I am starting to see that my being overly accommodating has not helped much. At this point if she does not see me as a "good" man - she never will. And it's not my problem - it's her loss. I really try to focus on that.
Crimson
^^ Hang in there^^
First hard (er) boundary line is tough.
out of my way to keep XW from having to feel all of the fall-out from her decision to leave - and I think you have been right.
I would drop this line of thinking. Keep your boundaries but let go of ideas about the "fall-out" she gets. Not your business.
What kind of plans do you have for Thanksgiving? A friend is leaving today for camping at Joshua Tree, I wish I had broken form the "traditional" Thanksgiving when my kids were young, or alternated years.
Next year I'm doing something non-traditional.
Whatever yo do, make it enjoyable. XW is not your responsibility.
Yes yes, that's a nicer way of putting it, not your responsibility. You're not making her feel or not feel effects; that's just making things complicated. You're divorced. Clear minds drew up a fair decree for you to follow. You're barely even setting a boundary here, just doing what you all agreed to previously. You're not making her struggle, just reminding her of what you both agreed to.
I have two teens. At 4 they didnt like having to sit for bug dinners of foods they didnt even like, and couldnt have cared less if they gathered on thursday or also on friday.
As your son solidifies his understanding of what holidays are, try to give him a gift of knowing that they're about the heart, spirit, and family, and not about the date or the specific routine. Give yourself that gift too. If you are forcing good cheer for him and dreading it, and glad when it's over, even if you're a great actor he will pick up on it and it will become part of what holidays mean to him. Reach for authentic joy and show him that.
Thanks all - I think over the course of this journey I have made progress in detaching myself from her feelings and reactions - but I still have a ways to go. I STILL find myself stopping and thinking "Seriously? This is my life now?" from time to time and that gets to me. I think this time of year seeing my friends and their spouses and children together gets to me as well. Happy for them - because I surely would not wish this upon them at all -- but still have moments of sadness because it's not working out they way for me right now and I feel "old".
Due to a few factors, I had to pick S up from XW this morning at 7:00. I stepped into her doorway and greeted S, but she BARELY addressed me. She spoke to S "tell daddy this, tell daddy that" and gave me some of his art projects from school - but the only time she really spoke to me was to ask if I was bringing him back on Friday. I feel as if it was a deliberately cold reception - and it was for sure out of the norm. My assumption would be that she is still angry that I did not let her take Thanksgiving and trade Christmas for it. Of course, paired with the fact I didn't let her have the multi-day holiday bonanza with my S in IA this year. Oh well.
Crimson
Yes, oh well. You will survive a chilly reception. The self pity in comparison with your friends is unattractive. Don't let yourself wallow, k?
So it seems like the opportunity to set more boundaries continues to present itself in my situation and, unlike before, I am taking them. Interesting story:
So I dropped S off at preschool this morning and as I was signing him in I realized that XW sister signed him out one day last week and signed him in the following day. Something didn't feel "right" about that so I texted her and the following came about:
M: Why did you sister have to drop off Corbin last week?
X: So I could attend a monthly meeting. It goes past 6 so she had him overnight. He loved it.
M: That's cool. But in the agreement if you can't watch him for a period of time over 6 hours he is supposed to go to me. You can't do that.
X: OK. I will pick him up from her next time after my meeting is over. And for the record I have no problem with him spending the night with your family.
M: I can't do that because of the divorce agreement - it is not fair to you. It isn't about your family or mine. It is about time with our son. I already have less that half - if there are times when you can't watch him, he goes to me. You also can't let him stay overnight somewhere away from you, family or not, without telling me. That's also part of the agreement.
X:Are you volunterring to take him on nights I have my metting or just objecting to my sister having him?
M: I'm not objecting to him being with your sister at all. Whnever you can't take him, I always will...and you have to tell me. As per the agreement, we both have "right of first refusal" in those situations. It has absolutely nothing to do with your sister.
X: I will pick him up after the meeting from now on. Thank you for correcting my error. I was ready to quit this meeting project due to this - however, she offered a solution to help. I will not do it again.
M: If watching S was an issue with your meeting, why wouldn't you come to his father? You know I'd take him. I would love more time with him.
X: Because it's only for a couple of hours. Thanks for correcting me. Have a nice day.
M: You too.
*a few minutes later*
X: If you are wanting to revisit the parenting schedule please say so.
M: Yes. I am. I don't want more than you. I want 50/50. I've always pushed for that.
X: Please email me what you are proposing.
It was somewhat difficult for me to to confront her on this and it made me instantly anxious. A few months ago I probably would have let it slide just to keep the peace and to show some kind of "change". I couldn't let it go. I feel as though she has little to no respect for me as a parent. Instead of looking at the bottom line fact of 1.) the divorce agreement and 2.) my time with him, she instantly asked if I had a problem with her sister (I adore her sister by the way, and miss her as well).
I tried to be kind and not finger-point. I stuck to the divorce agreement and held my ground and stood up for my time with my son.
With regard to her asking me to send a new parenting schedule proposal, you all may recall that she FOUGHT to have more than equal time through her lawyer. Instead of 50/50 it's more like 58/42...she would hear nothing of the 50/50 schedule I was proposing st the time. I was such a wreck back then I didn't have the strength or resources to stand my ground....I caved. I regret that.
I don't know, folks. Between me standing my ground on her trying to take him to IA for most of his holiday break (essentially expecting me to give her some of my days), having to hold the line on keeping him for Thanksgiving (she failed to read the divorce agreement that said I had him this year), and now this -- I feel like sure, I am holding my ground. But at the same time I feel like I am pushing her away. We have barely communicated since the "Christmas break" discussion. There has been a notable change in her demeanor towards me.
Even with that, I don't text (not even to ask how S is doing - even though she does when I have him), I don't write or e-mail anymore....I am really trying to drop the rope again....and keep it "dropped". It's just hard because in my heart - I stiil miss her to this day...I feel weak because I still do.
I guess I just need insight, support and encouragement -- I think I am hitting a rough spot in the river right now.
Crimson
You're not pushing her away, she's moving away. There's a difference. Good boundaries enable you to see the people you want around you.
And you don't know what's going on her her mind. I thought she handled herself well. She flubbed, it happens.
My thought was, Does that mean he'll never be able to spend the night with relatives who let him do all the things that parents don't. That was a really great part of my childhood.
You're doing fine, Crimson.
Thanks, Bug. I have no problem with him spending the night with relatives. I don't think it is unreasonable to just tell me or ask -- it's in the agreement. In this instance it was a matter of her being pinched for time -- in those instances I am supposed to be the backup. I guess more than anything I am trying to stick with what is in the agreement when applicable. It helps me define boundaries - and I am so eager to please I think for now I need it as a guideline. Am I being too harsh and inflexible? Honestly, I can't tell.
Crimson
Crimson, I haven't posted much at all on your threads but want you to know I am one of the many folks who follow along.
You did a FINE job. Your wife needs to respect that you are his father and if she cannot for any reason take care of him, you are next in line. As it is the other way around too.
You did an awesome job standing your ground. More parents who are divorced should have your attitude because so many don't and its the child that gets the short end of the stick.
Children are not a burden or inconvenience and sadly often times divorced folks treat them like they are. I admire your focus on what is truely important in your life.
Much respect.
Crimson I thought you did fine too. You were respectful but firm and entertained enough questions from her to be able to clarify.
I agree that you are NOT pushing her away; rather she is using distance as a manipulation tactic when she wants her way or wants you to back down. After a while if she sees it does not work, maybe she'll stop doing it. But if it works for her... she'll keep doing it.
Keep doing just what you did here.
Crimson, I get that, it's just what flashed in my mind as I was reading.
I don't think you're being inflexible in this instance but I think I also understand the choice she made.
Now you've made your stand clear, hopefully it won't be an issue in the future.
Thanks, folks. I think standing up for myself is kind of new right now so I don't know how to feel about it. I am working to keep on the track I am on right now....here we are a few years out and I am still slugging it out with the urge to reach out. I am doing better, but I get these strong compulsions to let her know I am still alive and wanting to work on stuff. She knows. Not need to keep selling it.
Ad - thanks for your insight....I have appreciated it since I have been here.
SM34 - thanks for following along. I still read your threads and think there are still positives in your situation.
Crimson
I'm not a big fan of texting, but I think you did quite well.
Interesting that she's fine with this project/meeting and having her sister watch your son, but when YOU offer to watch him, she's ready to drop the project/meeting.
Am I missing something?
I'm not trying to instigate problems, I just found that interesting and also thought it to be tactically intelligent on your part to not bring it up in the exchange.
-PM
I think you might be missing something. She said she was going to quit but thought her sister was a viable option. That wasn't to be so she'll go back to her plan to quit. I would guess that the exchanges between Crim and W are more fraught for everyone than the exchange between sisters.
I'm not there, so of course I don't know but that would have been my thinking in that situation.
Crimson, does the sister have children?
Her sister was married about a year after us and divorced two years before us. She is now remarried and has two step children, but none of her own. I have met her new husband and we get along really well, his kids are great too. I truly have no problems with any of them at all -- truth be told part of me still misses her sister a lot - we got along very well.
I don't think that XW meant anything by it - she clearly did not know the guard rails that we have to stay in. I guess that's why I didn't snap or anything (I never do) - I just firmly stood my position. I think I get frustrated sometimes because I feel as if I am the only one that ever bothered to read and abide by the divorce agreement. I know this will sound snarky, so I apologize in advance - but when it comes to $$$ and what she is owed - she knows exactly what is going on. In matters of custody and parenting time - she seems lost....hence she thought she had Thanksgiving this year up until two days before, hence she didn't have time for him and gave him to her sister...and so on. It think I am further frustrated by the amount of time she assumed was OK to take him for the Holidays - 12/25 through 1/5. I mean, that is LITERALLY his entire Christmas break from pre-school...all of it....zero consideration for dad at all. What's more is that she felt SLIGHTED when I wouldn't let it happen this year. Almost as if me giving her my time was an expectation....an entitelment. I think that is why my level of sensitivity around parenting time is heightened right now. I feel as though as far as his time with me goes she views me as an afterthought.
Crimson
Crimson, many people out there (and here) are operating from their unmet needs, usually from early in their life. It seems, and this is merely descriptive, your W is acting like a 2 yr old who hasn't gotten her way. Eventually most 2 yr olds learn that they don't always get their way. Some don't and they carry that with them into adulthood.
Until she's able to recognize that and see it as harmful, she won't change. It's all she knows. You can't change her but you can stand your ground. Don't be afraid of her. If she gets mad, she gets mad.
I have empathy for your W, she's an unhappy woman, she's said so herself but she doesn't know how to break out of it. That's hers. She will continue to be unhappy whether he goes to Iowa with her of not. That will not be the magic pill to make her life better.
You however can choose a good life filled with good times, you have the tools.
Totally, totally....TOTALLY agree!
I accept that she is not a project to fix, I think I am just trying to pull out of the notion that I need to prove myself to her as "not-the-man-she-left". Seems like she gets it sometimes - and still others she can somehow revert back to "we are toxic and unhealthy". Seems as if as long as I am caving in and giving her what she wants I am a good guy. Not good enough for R or rebuilding - but good. When I stand my ground, well, I am "unhealthy" and manipulative.
This really bothers me, Crimson. First, you haven't been able to end that emotional responsibility of trying to make everything around better in hopes it might cause her to be a bit happier. Second, when you first came here, you were trying to prove to her how you much you could change....in hopes she would not go through with the D. Then, you kept wanted to prove to her your changes in hopes that it would cause her to see the new you and she would want to R. Now, two years later, and you are wanted to prove to her you are not the man she left! So really, you were never able to get beyond the point of not making the changes for her. You're still making them about her. However, I'm coming up to the third reason this causes me concern. I've read several statements you've made that sounds as if you put too much importance upon her measure of you being a good man. I understand that when a couple is M that no other person's opinion or acceptance matters as much as that of the spouse. Perhaps that never completely goes away (outside of feeling hatred), IDK. It is tragic b/c everyone else seems to see what a good guy you truly are.
IMO, you caving in to her wishes has never made you a good or better person (unless it was in the very beginning of the stitch when you were learning to see somewhat selfish points in the past). I believe she knows exactly what you are trying to do (proving you've changed)and she knows she can use this to her advantage. After all, she has gotten pretty much her way for two years of co-parenting. Does she think any more of you after giving up your time when she wanted extra days or to have certain holidays or travel out of state? Obviously not. All she has to do is choose a few words to let you know you aren't good enough to R, and it tears you apart. That is emotional manipulation!
You know what's bad about spoiling a child by caving into their wishes all the time? They usually grow up spoiled, manipulative adults who continue to expect others (especially the one who did the spoiling) to comply with whatever they want. It is very unattractive.
"Please refrain from telling me you are coming from a kind and caring place. That may make you feel better about yourself, but your actions speak otherwise. Kind and caring must mean something different to you than it does to me".
Again, this emotional manipulation b/c she knew it would hurt your feelings. And it did.
Side note - I haven't heard much of a peep from her since Tuesday when she picked up S. Usually I'd have at least gotten a text from her or something....
She was sulking.
The fact that she texted me to ask if that way my "final decision" even after reading my e-mail tells me that she really, really wanted to take him and is probably struggling not being able to do so. She didn't, however, lash out. She told me that she wasn't going to celebrate Christmas with him until she went to IA with him...so I guess that is why she didn't mmind giving up Christmas...I mean, it sux, but she was willing to do it.
I know I am not the only one who sees through this. Look, she was expecting you to do just like you've done the past two years. Now, she's waiting for the guilt to set in on you. Don't you dare feel guilty over sticking to your guns.
I derive no pleasure from her unhappiness and certainly not my own.
We know. ((hug)) And....Crimson, that statement above is what makes the difference between really good people from the selfish ones.
Many here have said that I have gone out of my way to keep XW from having to feel all of the fall-out from her decision to leave -
You did. I think it ran over into a mixture of trying to keep her happy and not pushing her away more (in your opinion)and protecting her, that kept you tied to her emotionally.
I am starting to see that my being overly accommodating has not helped much.
Good!
At this point if she does not see me as a "good" man - she never will.
B/c you told her "no" for once? If it only takes one no to determine in her mind that you are not a "good" man, then her mentally is unhealthy.
I stepped into her doorway and greeted S, but she BARELY addressed me. She spoke to S "tell daddy this, tell daddy that"
My assumption would be that she is still angry that I did not let her take Thanksgiving and trade Christmas for it. Of course, paired with the fact I didn't let her have the multi-day holiday bonanza with my S in IA this year.
LOL! You think?
I don't know, folks. Between me standing my ground on her trying to take him to IA for most of his holiday break (essentially expecting me to give her some of my days), having to hold the line on keeping him for Thanksgiving (she failed to read the divorce agreement that said I had him this year), and now this -- I feel like sure, I am holding my ground. But at the same time I feel like I am pushing her away.
Pushing her away from WHAT?
I am really trying to drop the rope again....and keep it "dropped". It's just hard because in my heart - I stiil miss her to this day...I feel weak because I still do.
Sweetie, listen to me, please. You are not a weak man b/c you love her or still miss her. It's the feeling that you are doing something that "pushes her away" that causes you to doubt yourself and not to stick to your boundaries....that you've said in your own words "is best". You have a little boy who will be watching his daddy to see the role model for men in life's relationships. Doing what is best doesn't mean we have to like it or feel good about it. Sure makes it a lot easier when we do, but it just doesn't always happen that way. And even giving over to his mother's wishes every time won't cause him to love you more or teach him to be a better man.
Just as her opinion doesn't determine whether you are a good man or not, neither does admitting to caring for her make you weak. You
have come a long way these past two years. Seems like a lifetime, doesn't it? When you measure your personal mileage, it's been a long trip.
You aren't pushing her away b/c she's the one choosing to move backward. And if the two of you want to make changes on the co-parenting agreement, then it should be done some other time when holidays or vacations aren't pressing the issue.
(((hugs)))
Thank you so much for your insight, Sandi. It always, always helps. Let me say that again...ALWAYS.
I can see for sure how it appears that my changes were for her because I want her to see them and acknowledge them as real....as material. At the same time, though, she has yet to view them that way (or at least that is what I see/feel...I could be wrong). However, I don't see myself slipping backwards into where I was. And even in some of the minor relationships I have found myself in I see a lot of those changes coming to life and actually appreciated and refreshing to some women. Granted, I still don't think I am ready for a serious relationship yet. So to that end, though I do want her to notice - I think that they were made for me with her as the catalyst. I say that because I remain vigiliant about keeping my changes going, I NEVER want to have the old me impact another relationship like this again, and I actually like being new me. I am for SURE a work in process on this journey still -- but I like my changes. But yes -- I wish she liked them as well and saw them as worth returning to -- so I 100% see your point. I need to stop making it about her...even a little bit.
When you ask "pushing away from what?" I think the answer is me. But as many here have said - including you, I am not pushing, she is backing away. It's such a childish notion "I need her to like me"....but I have a hard time fighting it.
Crimson
I guess I am just kind of journaling to try to get an understanding of me feelings these last few days -- that said, I can't seem to shake the unpleasant anxious feeling in my stomach and chest. It's really odd because just a week ago I was feeling super confident and positive -- not sure where that guy went! If I try to dig into why I am feeling this way I am finding that it *may* center around interactions and interacting with XW. I think part of me wants them to be positive and encouraging - but recently she seems to be very cold and business-like for the most part. It seems like quite a notable shift. And with the onset of the holidays I think there is part of me that is just anxious because I deeply want (still) for us to be able to do things as a family with our S....and to that end, I feel like when he is away from me I am missing out on how he is experiencing the holidays. When I think about what I am missing with him I feel that anxious knot in my stomach tighten. I suppose "missing out on parts of my son's life" has been a constant, hard-to-deal-with theme for me since this akk began....holidays just shine a bright spot on it. Please don't think I am falling apart - I'm not. I think I am just feeling more these last few weeks. Trying to get my arms and brain around it.
Crimson
So I suppose I just need help and direction here.....maybe just to vent and get a few things off my chest as well.
So this was not my Christmas to have S this year. I had him till 6 Christmas Eve and then had to drop him off with XW. We had an awesome two days together - my sister is in town with her kids and husband and he played his heart out with his cousins. We went to the candle light Christmas Eve service at 5:00. As we were leaving, he reminded me that I hadn't given santa my list - I told him he was the best gift I ever received so I didn't really want anything!
In my heart I knew I was about to give him bad news.
As we were driving away he asked if we were gong back to see his cousins -- I said, "no buddy - we have to go to mom's". His mood changed instantly. He started crying and saying "I don't want to go to mama's!" over and over again. It wasn't a fake cry...I have learned the difference.
He begged me not to take him, he told me he wanted to stay with me, he said his "mom said he could stay with me", asked if he could only stay at his mom's for one minute. All through gigantic tears. As we got closer....the cries got sadder and sadder....he said he did want to see him mother, and then said he hated her. I told him that was not a nice thing to say because she loves him.
When we arrived she literally had to peel him off of me. He was crying...then he calmed down for a minute. He asked me for a hug and a kiss and a head-butt (our little "thing") - so I picked him up. At this point, the tears in my eyes were evident. He gave me a giant squeeze and I put him down. As I turned to walk away, he broke down and cried so hard....he ran right for me with his arms outstretched and wrapped them around my legs - crying "I want my daddy!!" over and over. All I could do was pick him up again and hold him....my tears were flowing but I was silent. I just rubbed his back and said "I know, I know" over and over again. I looked at XW and she was looking away on purpose...staring at the ceiling. Then she looked at me, almost frustratingly or angry, and said "He suffers when we do this! Just so you know!". I handed him to her, he was screaming in tears - and the door closed. I heard him still screaming "I want my daddy!".
I made it to my car and sobbed harder than I can remember doing in awhile. My heart was absolutely in a billion pieces. And then her statement of "he suffers when we do this - just so you know!" infuriated me. Really?! He was sad, hurting, didn't want to leave his dad...and she insinuates that saying good bye, hugging him, acknowledging his hurt, and trying to comfort him causes suffering?? I my mind she has driven a wedge between a father and son that tears at his heart and mine - and I caused suffering?? Where is the accountability on her end? When she left she said she wanted "better" for our son....this is not better....it just isn't.
I made it to my parents house and tried to ignore my feelings.
I woke up at home this morning to a call from S. He was excited about what Santa had brought him. We had a nice little talk for a minute or two and he told me he loved me and missed me.
I have been spending the day at my parents house with my sister and her family. I get S back tomorrow so the following text exchange happened.
Me: Is 9:00 tomorrow morning OK?
X: 11:00 works.
Me: That's a little late - just a bit before his nap time. I was a hoping to do presents with him. In the agreement "days" begin at 8:00. I thought 9:00 was being reasonable.
X: OK - are you picking him up?
Me: No. I dropped him off to you, I don't think I have to pick him up too.
X: OK, Crimson (with that, I could tell she was getting angry)
X: Seems odd that I am giving you extra days and you expect I bring him also, but whatever creates less stress for S I will do.
Me: You're not giving me extra days. Didn't we trade Thursday/Friday so you could have my Monday/Tuesday (traveling to IA)? If I'm wrong let me know.
X: I would like to end this text exchange. I will bring him to you tomorrow at 9:00 AM.
Instantly, I felt guilt and anxiety. I questioned if I just did something wrong! I wasn't rude, I wasn't disrespectful.....I felt like I stood my group again and she got angry. I also think that the "Whatever is less stressful for S" was a jab at the exchange last night where he was sobbing. Why do I always feel like the bad guy??
I need help understanding. I feel like our relationship (not "relationship", but how we relate and communicate) has been getting worse ever since I started sticking up for my time....sticking up for myself and not caving. And somehow I feel the worse for it. As if I am making her mad. As if I am the bad guy.
In the past I DID bend a lot in the name of making amends and trying to show her that things could b different and that we could work together within the context of a new relationship. It didn't really do much.....just left me hurting from giving up so much and missing my son. Things between us don't even seem very friendly right now. I don't know what to do right now. I know I am not going to cave on things anymore -- but part of me feels like she is angry because things are starting to look and function like a true "divorced" couple with a kid.
I hate feeling this way.....damned if you do, damned if you don't. I hate feeling like the bad guy...I hate missing my son.
I hate the impact that this is having on my son....I hate having to have my heart and his broken when we part ways. Christmas Eve was brutal. In the past when I have tried to share my concerns about how he reacts to things (in particular, one very hard drop off at school when he knew she was coming to get him and freaked) and she says "I am not going to assign adult emotions to a three-year-olds antics. She called them "antics". Is as if she can stomach it if she turns her head (literally sometimes) and pretends that it is me causing the problems or making too much of it. I have a very sensitive son, he feels things....she knows that. And yet she tells ME that "he suffers"? How can a mother see her child in that much pain like she did on Christmas Eve and not wonder if this is the right path?? I sure as hell couldn't. Unless I buried my head in the sand, which seems to be what she has chosen.
I am really sorry for venting and the novel...I just had a lot to get out and it has had me sad for awhile. Just needing help and guidance.
Crimson
((hugs)) Crimson.
I think you handled the exchange well. Not sure what the vets would say... I will follow up.
Meanwhile (((((((HUGS)))))))
I'm no vet but your son is more important than her…if she tries some sick game where you win nice behaviour from her when you give up time with your son, please do yourself a favour and lose that game by a mile.
Crimson,
You are doing well keeping to your boundaries. She continues to behave like a petulant child when she doesn't get her way. I am confident she knows that her behavior hurts you. Perhaps subconsciously. When she doesn't get her way, she plays on your emotions to "teach you lessons".
Continue being a great dad and lead with confidence. Confidence in knowing that you are being the best father you possibly can be. Your X will do whatever she does. Her actions are not your cross to bear. I'm sure she sees that your son is hurt, however she refuses to be accountable and chooses to shift the blame to you.
Keep doing your thing. She can avoid reality, but she can't avoid the consequences of the reality of her choices. Stick to your guns Crimson.
Thanks, GM and LITB. I respect both of you so much.
I guess it just got worse. As I was packing up my stuff to leave my parents place my mom asked what time XW would be dropping off my S. I told her 9:00. She said that she want everyone (her, my dad, my BIL, sister, niece a nephew) to be there when he sees and opens his presents. My mom and sister still harbor negative feelings towards my XW. I basically asked that my mom let just me be at the house when she drops him off -- they could come by 10-15 after. I just wanted to avoid the tension.
My mom lost her sh*t.
She accused me of wanting to keep them away so I could open presents with XW, she called it a slight to her and said it "sux"....laid on the guilt and and said everyone worked so hard to wrap son's presents. She went off on me. I just took it without raising my voice -- I tried to explain, but she wasn't having it. I just said "I love you anyway, mom." -- and turned to walk away. She responded by saying "F*ck you!".
Yep - that hurt. I just went to my car in the driveway to leave. I turned the ignition and my mom busts out of the garage and throws the laundry basket I used to carry gifts back and forth onto the hood of my car rather forcefully and storms back into the house. Yep. That happened.
XW p*ssed at me, mom p*ssed at me....all from me trying to do the "right" things. Right now I just want to go upstairs and bury my face in the bed. I feel like I can't win and am being tested to the limits of what I can handle. I feel.....numb.
Crimson
So this was not my Christmas to have S this year. I had him till 6 Christmas Eve and then had to drop him off with XW. We had an awesome two days together - my sister is in town with her kids and husband and he played his heart out with his cousins. We went to the candle light Christmas Eve service at 5:00. As we were leaving, he reminded me that I hadn't given santa my list - I told him he was the best gift I ever received so I didn't really want anything! smile In my heart I knew I was about to give him bad news.
sorry for the repeat paragraph....having MacBook issues.
((hugs)) Crimson.
I think you handled the exchange well. Not sure what the vets would say... I will follow up.
Meanwhile (((((((HUGS)))))))
Tough stuff. ((( )))
I'm only going to comment about the text exchange.
Don't try to change her mind or convince her of what a nice guy you are.
If you want to pick him up at 9 and it's not a negotiation don't ask if that's OK.
It might go better if you had the pick-up time pinned down at the same time the drop-off is decided, even down to who's doing the driving.
Don't get into the who did what back and forth with her, it serves no purpose.
I would be keeping a journal of changes you both decide to make.
Do you think you have anything to feel guilty about?
How can a mother see her child in that much pain like she did on Christmas Eve and not wonder if this is the right path??
You don't know that she doesn't, she just handles it differently.
Some people think if they ignore a child's pain/emotions, everything will be just fine. (I could go on a rant here, but won't.)
Could you talk with XW about having a transition time at drop-off, where the two of you read a story to S or play a short game? Something that you do every time that's enjoyable for him.
Do you always wait until the last minute to tell him he's going back to mom's? That's ignoring his emotions in a different way. How might you do that differently.
Seriously, C, you need to learn to see this stuff with different eyes.
I just read about a seriously disturbed woman verbally abusing her son and behaving in a completely unacceptable way that should be ignored at the very least. I would have advised that son to draw some serious boundaries with that woman, to possibly stop interacting with her and consider cutting ties.
That son, on the other hand, is beating himself up wondering what he did, and feeling guilt and anxiety, and wondering what he could have done different to make this disturbed woman behave in a more loving way.
Are you kidding me?
That was nothing about you. Train yourself to not see that as your fault, and to walk away from it rather than looking for what you could do different to make her ok. She's not ok, and in all likelihood will never be. You just don't act like that to your son, you just don't. That's not about you.
You can't win because you're playing the wrong game. Don't play it, and then you'll be the winner.
I guess I did comment on more than the text exchange.
I came back to ask if you and your IC have worked on shy you feel so guilty in these situations.
Wow Crimson, I just read the post about your Mom, missed it earlier.
It seems strong boundaries are in order for both your mother and your XW.
I now get where all the guilt comes from.
Hey Bug, Ad, and others -
With regard to IC and guilt - yeah, it for sure has come up. She believes that I am beating myself up because I think "If I only" a lot. If I only would have done things differently, if I only would have been a better husband, etc. - so I feel guilty for feeling like I am still dropping the ball. She basically has told me that I have more than owned my piece of the puzzle and at this point it is her....not me.
My mom battles a lot with depression. Her temper flares and she says terrible things to me, my dad, my sister....been going on most of my adult life. She plays the victim a lot. I think she wanted to be angry about not being able to be at my house whenever she wanted...and I asked for about a 10 minute buffer. She is mad at XW and took it out on me. Everyone came over this morning to see my son open his presents -- everyone except my mom. She left the house without telling anyone where she was going. Her loss. It was fun....and my son even asked where she was.
This is why I stressed when I knew they were moving here. It can totally destroy the peace I had here for 15 years living alone.
Crimson
Hey folks - just dropping in.
No major news or movement. S is in IA with XW right now and won't be back till Sunday. Over the past few days she has sent pictures of him - but I did not respond. Finally today I texted and said thanks for sending the pictures - that it looked like S was having a great time. Just asked her to keep warm (it's crazy cold out there) and to give S a hug for me. That's been pretty much it in terms of communication.
What I am really wrestling with right now is whether or not I should talk to her about everything that happened with S during the transition on Christmas Eve (see previous post). There had been a previous incident where he had a major breakdown about transitioning from one house to the other while I was dropping him off at preschool -- he sobbed uncontrollably and clung to me like a vine. When I later called the school to see if he was doing better they said he wasn't himself and kept telling the teachers and aides that he didn't want his mom to come get him, that he wanted his dad to come get him. He even peed on himself which is highly, highly atypical for him.
Later, when I tried to express concern to XW (texting) about the incident she said "I am not going to assign adult emotions to a three-year-olds antics". At that point, I stopped typing. "Antics"....she called it "antics". I know that what I saw was nothing in that category at all.
I guess I say all of that to ask if a broader discussion is warranted with XW about her taking the emotions and feelings of S more seriously. Thus far, it appears to me that her choice is to avoid or minimize them. I am partially of the belief that this is done to avoid having to confront some of the negatives from the decision to D. I don't mean to confront her from a "look what you've done" standpoint, but from a "we should take this more serously at this age" standpoint. I mean, he said he hated her. I have NEVER heard him use that word in reference to anyone or anyTHING for that matter -- ever. The first time I hear it out of his mouth it's in reference to his mother? Shouldn't she be a little concerned? Am I off base?
Anyhow, just thinking out loud I guess. It was really, really, really hard for me to see S in that much pain and then have to walk away from him when I knew he needed/wanted me. The moment was haunting and gut-wrenching and I can't see how XW was not impacted by it. It was truly one of the worst experiences I have had in this whole process.
I have IC tonight...I am sure it will come up.
Crimson
How hard for you (((( C)))))
Let us know what the I says.
Your boundaries with W? You are doing well, especially in light of the story of your relationship with your mother. Look how far you've come in changing the way you react to these behaviours.
Crimson, I am new to your situation, and I am sorry for the emotions your son is going through. I don't know what the custody arrangements are, but it sounds like you are both part of his life.
Does he look like he is having fun there? She may have sent the pics to let you see him having a good time.
We aren't physically separated but we don't go anywhere as a family. I don't pursue, and the few times I do, it is shot down. So either the kids go out with W, or with me. And D5 is picking up on that. When I take them somewhere, she says, "Mommy isn't coming AGAIN? That Mommy."
You brought it up once, maybe if you bring it up again by a slightly different route and then drop it unless/until you see this behavior again from S? Maybe he was just having a bad day.
You sound like a very good Dad. Let that encourage you.
Crimson don't bring up what your lil one is going through with exw. Take him to his pediatrician if ur are concerned. She will deny that anything is going on wrong with him. My exw does the same thing even tho my D is repeating the 9th grade a 4th time. Don't do what I did and hope exw will do the motherly thing.
Crimson, she's not going to see things your way.
If you think there's something wrong, have him evaluated as Rick says.
It is rough on them, and rough on us, too. My D went through a lot of the same things in regards to visits with her dad and the best I could do was be there for her and let her know I wasn't going anywhere. She also had a few accidents around the same age that were related to the trauma of the visits (I believe trauma is the correct word for what she went through - her visits were out of state and for 2 weeks at a time). What your son will remember is how each of you dealt with this, especially as he gets older. My D is 13 now and has a terrible r with her dad because he could/would never acknowledge her feelings surrounding all of this and how hard the visits were. Continue to be there for him and pray that your W wakes up and starts to acknowledge his feelings and will work to find ways to make the transitions easier.
Thanks everyone for chiming in. GM, I think your comments were pretty much on point. I am bewildered how seeing your child in that much pain would not be enough for a parent to take a moment and consider if the track they are on is "right", if that is enough to even *think* that being apart *may* be a bad decision (assuming there was no abuse or other previous severe issues). But yes, I think she has issues that extend way beyond me that just keep her from seeing things that way. Sometimes I just want to shout "stop hurting our son!" - but I know that would be faaaar from wise or productive.
Rick & Bug - I hadn't really thought about connecting him with a Dr. on the matter. I'll for sure think about that as an option.
IC tonight told me tonight that it may be beneficial for me to say something about it later....considering it was the second incident. Something along the lines of "I am concerned because.......here's why I feel that way and what I have observed.....it makes me believe that.....what I would like to see instead is....". I just have to have the courage to say it -- still grapple with confrontation with her in the fear that it will do more harm than good.
She also warned me to address the possibility that part of me may want to "punish" her by making her face the consequences of her actions relative to our son. It's a legit thing for her to say just by virtue of the fact that part of me DOES want her to acknowledge the impact this is having on our S. IC said that for a three year old to say that they "hate" a parent is pretty harsh....regardless of context.
I guess at the end of the day I know how I feel when I see him in that much pain....I would do anything I could to ease it for him. I still have anger that surfaces when I think about her saying she "wanted better" for S on BD.
By the way, GM, we are not on a one-on one-off schedule. We split parts of the week so he doesn't have to spend a long time away from either of us. I have less time, but she said she is open to changing it.
Crimson
I'm sorry but I'd look at the school. That is not normal. My kid was clinging to me and the aides lied and said other things when actually we found out there was abuse. Pay attention to the school first before anything else.
I was thinking back and I'm not sure my kids knew the word hate at age 3.
You may be getting into a very difficult cycle, which I got into with my H, where you overdramatize in the face of her seeming heartlessness and she therefore minimizes your concerns based on your seeming exaggeration. In my case we became polarized. The meaner H got the more nurturing I felt I had to be, and my spoiling and coddling them made him feel even more committed to toughening them up. If there's any way you can calm yourself down and look for common ground, I think it will help you avoid further polarization.
Yes, if you're concerned see a pediatrician. I have heard a two/three year old say I hate you (not to me), and it wasn't particularly shocking. I have heard many times that family changes and transitioning can cause setbacks in toilet training. Your S is upset, but your being upset can feed his trauma. If the all-powerful daddy is shocked and worried, there must REALLY be something to be worried about. His whole little world is shaky. He needs you to act like he will be ok. And he needs to think his mom is not the bad guy.
Perhaps if you can be more moderate in your interpretations she will feel less inclined to minimize. Separation anxiety, tears, even a little manipulation and milking a situation just possibly could be at play...if you're open to the possibility rather than being horrified that she called them "antics"...you'll be better positioned to communicate without pushing her to the opposing side.
I honestly felt like it was going to take me being mean to get my husband off the cycle we were on, and I wasn't willing to do that, so I just couldn't see how to get on the same page.
You need to get closer to the same page.
^^^Good points Ad. I've heard 2-3 yr olds say lots of surprising things, usually the things adults say with gusto!
So in theory I know I SHOULDN'T be effected by the fact I saw my ex on match.com tonight...she looked at my profile and clicked to see who it was (there were no pictures on her profile) and in reading the content it was for sure her. It did sting quite a bit and I was (and am) admittedly jarred. I know I need to accept the fact that she is going to put herself out there and date - I certainly have....so it's not fair to hold double standards....but it still burned. I could for sure say more - but just don't know what to say right now. Part of me wonders why she bothered to look at my profile...and wonders what exactly went through her mind. No matter -- I know I need to just get over it.
Crimson
I'm sure that would be tough. But on the the bright side, she's about to find out just how daunting it is to find a decent guy out there. I've been dating on and off and every woman that I've met online and went out with has complained about guys posting old pictures (or even fake pictures) in their profiles and lying about their age and weight. And even if their info is honest, they tell me most guys online are "singularly focused" if you know what I mean, LOL! There are a LOT of frogs out there and few princes.
So in theory I know I SHOULDN'T be effected by the fact I saw my ex on match.com tonight...she looked at my profile and clicked to see who it was (there were no pictures on her profile) and in reading the content it was for sure her. It did sting quite a bit and I was (and am) admittedly jarred. I know I need to accept the fact that she is going to put herself out there and date - I certainly have....so it's not fair to hold double standards....but it still burned. I could for sure say more - but just don't know what to say right now. Part of me wonders why she bothered to look at my profile...and wonders what exactly went through her mind. No matter -- I know I need to just get over it.
Crimson
It's an awakening.
If she clicked on your profile, that means you are on the site also, right?
If I saw my XH's profile on a dating site, I'd click on it, I have no doubt.
Acknowlwedge that it burns and let it go.
Probably should not have posted last night - but it felt like a gut punch and this is a place where I go to vent so I don't text her or do something foolish along those lines.
Bug - I have acknowledged and am making peace with the "burn" of it. I am out there as well, you are correct. I certainly can't say that I am mad or anything that she is out there - it would be a blatant double standard. It was just a confirmation that she is out there looking again. And I know it shouldn't bother me - but it did.
Stander - I have dabbled in and out of dating and you're right, it is really tough at this stage of life. I have yet to really commit to it. In fact, I cancelled my membership a week ago and it expires mid-month. I also hear a lot from women about how terrible it is at this age to date. As you noted, there seems to be an ABUNDANCE of questionable men out there....a lot. My ego kicks in at times and I ask myself if I REALLY am a less desirable option to her than whatever is swimming in the dating pool.
Switching gears.....
Without going into too much detail, I expressed to XW that I am concerned about the emptional toll that splitting homes is having on S. There are some very obvious signs that he is struggling with it. Yesterday when I told him that XW was coming to pick him up from preschool he broke down. He was crying and sobbing that he wanted me to come get him....and bargaining even. When I tried to let go of him he would not let me go. I looked at his face and the sadness, hurt and despair was sooooo evident. He tried not to cry, but when I handed him to the aides he broke into huge tears screaming "I want my daddy!" -- I had to leave.....and again, I cried the whole way to work.
XW does not see this in the same way that I do because he is always excited to come back to my house or to see me...and outside of Christmas Eve (which was brutal) she has never seen it.
I let her know my concerns in a brief text and she replied asking if it was something that I would to to my IC about and she could attend. I said yes, and she asked me to try and set an appointment. It is the second time she has asked about going to my IC about something (previously she wanted to go regarding sharing the holidays). Not sure how to take that, but we'll see what happens. Certainly can't make things worse. If she ends up going, I tend to believe my IC would want to talk to her on her own first before we speak to her together.
Well, that's about all I have going on.
Crimson
Figured I would give a small update considering it has been awhile, plus I think I am experiencing a bit of anxiety that I need to work through -- and, believe it or not, posting does in fact help.
So if you look at the last paragraph in my last post that whole situation plays itself out today and tomorrow. I have my appointment with my IC today in the late afternoon and XW has hers tomorrow in the early evening. Just to give some context, there have been several (three, to be exact) incidents where XW has wanted to talk to my IC together. The most recent had to do with S, once it was about a homework assignment my IC gave me and asked that I share with her, and once was about the holidays.
My IC thought it would be best if XW went on her own first without me -- and truthfully, I think that was the best approach. I have been going to her for awhile now and I think everyone would be more comfortable if there was somewhat of an individual rapport in place. At a bare minimum, I don't want XW to think she is walking into an ambush where she gets beat up. Thanks to the folks here I know that I have a great IC and that is by no means the way she operates. I would figure that after one or two individual appointments maybe we would go in together if it makes sense to do so.
I suspect that a lot of it will be about S, but I also think it is impossible to talk about S without discussing the two of us.
In many ways part of me wishes this is the help we would have gotten when she moved back in the spring (I hope you are reading this SM34). Even if it is just about S, we soooo needed a professional third party to help us navigate.
Over the course of this ordeal, I have learned to do my best to let go of outcomes but in doing so I struggle with the notion of "hope". I do not know what this pending dance with IC will bring, but hopefully it won't make things worse. Part of me finds it striking that she has been the one to repeatedly ask (or suggest) to go whenever things come up. Though I do know that I have said in writing before that if she is ever open to the notion of going to see my IC I would be supportive of it.
So why the anxiety? I guess because there is much uncertainty....and for me, hope mixed with uncertainty sometimes raises my anxiety level a notch or two. Don't get me wrong, I have surely gotten better about it - but I have not put all of that reaction to rest just yet.
In terms of how XW and I have been relating to one another, things have been friendly. You will all be pleased to know that I do not proactively reach out or write letters or anything like that anymore. I am giving her more space and distance than ever before. And when she contacts me I wait quite awhile before I respond. I have gotten pretty good at squashing my urge to say hi, or ask how she is doing.
Strangely enough, the other day she just texted me something really funny out of the blue. I responded and she laughed and said she was glad I thought it was funny because sometimes other people don't get her sense of humor. It was a minor thing, but it felt nice to hear from her about something that wasn't about S or something. Much later in the week I shared something with her that I saw that I thought was funny and we had a good laugh about it. I am grateful that at least we can still relate to one another in humor.
Thanks for listening. I feel a little less anxious. As always, any and all feedback is welcomed and appreciated. Are my "sherpas" 25 and Sandi still out there??
Hope you all are doing well and finding strength -
Crimson
I can relate to your S going through problems, my S11 continues to have struggles with this as well. He tells me often that he hopes mom will still come home. He also expresses a lot of anger about OM being around so much. I just validate as best I can. I talked to W about his struggles and suggested IC for him (she has insurance for the kids since she works for an insurance company) and she said she'd look into it. I need to follow up on that as it's been a while.
Strangely enough, the other day she just texted me something really funny out of the blue. I responded and she laughed and said she was glad I thought it was funny because sometimes other people don't get her sense of humor. It was a minor thing, but it felt nice to hear from her about something that wasn't about S or something.
The reconciliations that I know of that happened after long term S or even D started out this way, with friendly interactions. Joking and stuff. After BD the WAS and LBS are at such odds over everything that it's almost impossible to have a friendly, laid-back, pressure-free convo. So when you get to the point where that can happen again it reminds the WAS of why they were attracted to the LBS in the first place. I'm not saying it means reconcilation is imminent, one of my buddies was chatty with his W for a year before it went any further. But regardless, it's a good step.
Thank you, AS. The odd thing is, and I say "odd" to a lot of D couples that I have run into during this journey, that XW and I still like each other as people. True enough, there is some hurt there for sure but despite the flare-ups and tension that have popped up along the way we don't hate each other. SOOO many of the people that I have encountered (and or dated) along the way despise their ex. Granted, I do not know what the history is there - but more often than not there is an abundance of bad blood. I remember early on 25 saying that the past serves two purposes only.....lessons learned and loving memories. As time marches forward, I find myself reflecting back more on the awesome memories I had with my XW than the turmoil that we plowed through as things came apart. I would say in large part that that has a lot to do with the many things I have learned here. I don't expect any miracles, but at a minimum I am glad that no knives are being thrown - at least the climate is "right".
With regard to our S I do worry about him a lot and try to be as emotionally there for him as I can be. He is such, such, such a sensitive little guy. To be honest, I was the same way when I was his age and I remember the feelings -- so I feel as though I can relate well with him.
Crimson
Hi friend. Yes, still here. Hope I am around anytime you need to reach out.
I think it's good that the two of you can find something to share laughter.
I know you feel anxious about her seeing your IC, and then the two of you seeing her together. Even if your XW were to think the IC would share XW's POV over issues with S, and/or that IC will help to change your mind.........it could turn out to help your XW in the end. (I hope that makes sense.). I really hope something will be said by IC that will encourage XW to seek further help for her personal issues (and not neccessarily related to son or you).
We will sure hope for a good outcome. I will be anxiously waiting to hear how things go.
(hugs)
Thank you for posting, Sandi. I both appreciate and miss your input....I wish you lived on my shoulder.
I, too, hope that maybe this will help XW get some help for her own issues. Of course, that would mean having to acknowledge them (which is very difficult - at least it was for me) and so far that has yet to really happen at a depth that would inspire her to work on herself. Still, -- I maintain hope on one level or another.
Sometimes I don't know if hope is my friend or enemy.
Because of our working schedules XW will have to meet with my IC at 6. Hence, I have to pick S up from school (which I am excited about) and spend some time with him. After that I have ti bring him back to XW when her appointment concludes as it is her weekend with him. This morning I got the following text:
"I anticipate S's transition back to me after appt might be rough...he prefers dad at this age. Anything you can do to keep it positive and matter-of-fact I would appreciate
"
I think that is a soft reference to the emotional breakdown S had when I dropped him off on Christmas Eve - where he literally reached out for me and would not let me go and cried his eyes out screaming "I want my daddy!". In that moment, I held him in her doorway and tried to comfort him as best I could as he cried. As mentioned before, XW looked away (she was kind of tearing up as well). She looked at me and said "he suffers when we do this - just so you know". I think what she wanted me to do was just "drop-and-run" regardless of his feelings or the fact that he was crying for me. I chose to comfort him - and I would do that every single time. I think her asking for it to be "positive and matter of fact" it her asking my to not show any emotion and just walk away from him.
I think I will suggest we meet at a neutral spot and let him interact with both of us for awhile to make the transition less abrupt and painful for him.
I am long past the stage of assigning blame and pointing fingers, but I do wish at times that she would unbury her head a little and at least acknowledge that this is not the greatest deal for S. As I have said before, on BD she said "I wanted better than this for S!!" -- and the emotional hits he has to take at the age of 3 are not "better". Sorry if I am venting, but I hate to see him hurt.
Hopefully IC cab help us here.
I am still feeling anxious and just want this event to come and go. *sigh*
Crimson
Thank you, GM - I sincerely appreciate your feedback. You are very correct - I need to narrow my focus to just the matter at hand which is making transitions better for son. I still have a very bad habit of getting too far ahead of myself in matters like this.
I am not a fan of drop-and-run when S is clearly struggling with his emotions. I just can't do it....it's bad for all parties involved. I get frustrated because sometimes I believe XW thinks that it is the best path to take - but I believe she feels that way because it means less time she has to actually see him physically struggling with the separation. It's literally sticking your head in the sand......I am not going to do that for him.
So in response to her earlier text about making the transition "positive and matter-of-fact" I responded:
Me: I would suggest we meet someplace and spend some time together interacting as a trio to make the transition easier -- then go our separate ways. He's usually a bit more happy with mom and dad both with him -- he loves us both.
XW: OK. Just talking with him this morning he was not pleased with the idea of coming back to me after my appointment. Must be nice to be the "preferred" on...LOL
Me: I'm grateful S and I have such an amazing bond. Two years ago I wasn't at all on a path that would have created that.
XW: I'm grateful too
Now, what I WANTED to say after that was that being "preferred" isn't all that great because I have to watch his sadness set in when he knows we are parting ways and have to try to comfort him as he tries his best not to cry. I kept those thoughts to myself. At any rate, it will be nice to see him happy with both of us today even if it is just for a little bit.
Crimson
"I anticipate S's transition back to me after appt might be rough...he prefers dad at this age. Anything you can do to keep it positive and matter-of-fact I would appreciate
"
Hey Crimson,
I am wondering if you might be projecting these feelings onto your son, since you are already anticipating it to be difficult. Kids are intuitive. They pick up on these things.
I am curious to know how you carry yourself during these interactions and exchanges. I realize these situations suk, however it is reality at the moment.
By what I can gather, you fight the "why do things have to be this way, when they can be better?". It is what you hope for versus the reality, if that makes sense.
You are part of the equation in these exchanges and I am unsure if you are making the situation better or more difficult for your S.
Crimson - I know how hard it is when your S is upset and your W is not great at handling it. My H does the same thing a lot of the time. My kids will cry that they only want mommy to do something and my H will just say fine and go to walk away. H just gives up and takes offense. He hates when the kids cry (probably because he never deals with him own emotions). It always frustrates me because my boys are so easy to distract. My H could easily tell them that he will show them something special or read them a book and the tears would dry up and the kids would be thrilled. I have nicely explained this several times and asked for cooperation (because it often leaves me trying to put all three kids to bed alone at the same time if they are all crying for me). I think that he is finally getting it. I think that your suggestions to your XW were great. I also dont believe in just leaving your S when he is upset. It always makes the situation worse for my boys.
I assure you, LITB I am not projecting. I remain pretty level leading up to and during the exchanges. He sincerely does not want to leave me. I don't coax him, trash-talk EX, nothing....he just doesn't want to be there with her and I do not know why....I don't know what goes on with the two of them while he is there or how they interact -- I just know he is really upset when he has to go.
I don't know how depressed she is, but I do know that she has struggled with depression for years and stopped taking anything for it after BD. She is insecure - that is a fact. And in terms of "barely surving" she portrays herself as "OK" during our brief and infrequent meetings.
I think I carry myself well during the transactions - even though yes, reality right now suks. I keep my feelings to myself about it for sure and do not let my heart show that much to S. I just try to comfort him....and I do have tears in my eyes sometimes, but I am not losing it or anything.
Crimson
To clarify, LITB, XW was the on that sent the message about anticipating the exchange to be difficult - not me.
I both appreciate and miss your input....I wish you lived on my shoulder.
AMEN! You've heard of Elf-On-The-Shelf? We all need Sandi-On-My-Shoulder
In that moment, I held him in her doorway and tried to comfort him as best I could as he cried.
Oh man, that made me tear up! My S hasn't cried at times like that, but like last night (S comes to my house every day after school on W's weeks and stays there until she picks him up) when W picked him up he grabbed onto me and wouldn't let go. It's so tough seeing what this does to our kids.
I am long past the stage of assigning blame and pointing fingers, but I do wish at times that she would unbury her head a little and at least acknowledge that this is not the greatest deal for S.
I suspect she may know it quite well but is acting "as if" everything is fine. WAS's are really good at that. I know my W still cries a lot as D17 hears her and mentions it to me, but yet she's stony and unemotional around me. So the feelings are there, they just don't show them to us.
Despite all this I get the sense from your posts that you're maintaining a good outlook and certainly I sense no hostility on your part towards your W, so that's a good place to be
AMEN! You've heard of Elf-On-The-Shelf? We all need Sandi-On-My-Shoulder
I seriously cannot stop laughing at this. My co-workers must think I have gone insane
I assure you, LITB I am not projecting. I remain pretty level leading up to and during the exchanges. He sincerely does not want to leave me. I don't coax him, trash-talk EX, nothing....he just doesn't want to be there with her and I do not know why....I don't know what goes on with the two of them while he is there or how they interact -- I just know he is really upset when he has to go.
I am glad to hear that you are not projecting. I know how difficult exchanges can be. If my S7 had a choice, he would be with me all of the time.
Seems like you are doing everything you can, given the circumstances. I can only assume that you don't project your discomfort through your body language either based on your post. Is that fair to say?
Just trying to figure out if there is anything that is within your control that can be changed to improve the situation. I think the idea of meeting in a neutral location is at least trying something different. You don't know, unless you try.
I think I am going to go buy the domain name sandionmyshoulder.com!
I really don't have much in the way of hostility towards her. Even looking back on my old posts I never really lashed out at her. More just sadness, hurt and a ton of confusion. Hell, I told my IC yesterday sometimes I think it would be easier if I really DID hate her! I know that is BS, but sometimes the thought crosses my mind. Desipte this crappy path, I still have a huge space in my heart for her. Sometimes I wonder if something is wrong with me.
You are also correct, AS, that she is pretty stone-like in front of me most of the time. No clue what is going on below the surface - but I would figure you would have to be a borderline sociopath to see your child suffering and be OK with it. Still, I know that there is nothing that I can do about it.
Crimson
LITB - I try to be self-aware as possible and don't think that I am contributing to his reactions. Literally if I just say "we have to go to mom's today" -- it starts. I have tried telling him in advance, I have tried telling him last minute - and nothing seems to help the situation much. As I mentioned before on Christmas Eve he said "I hate my mama!" - which stopped me dead in my tracks. He had never said that about anything or anyone before - I didn't even know the word was in is vocab. My IC said that that is a pretty "heavy" word for a three year old to drop. And again, I assure you that I do not project any negative feelings towards his mother around him. Ever.
I am not sure if there is much I can do to change the situation just yet - I am trying, and I suppose getting XW to discuss with IC is a good first step.
Crimson
You are on it Crimson. All I can say is keep doing what you are doing. Be there for your kid and keep trying.
Hell, LITB - I don't know if I am on it or not. I am literally rolling with whatever comes my way, balancing hope with reality and trying to be the best dad/man I can be in light of cruddy circumstances. I appreciate your support as well as everyone else's. If nothing else, this experience can make a proud man humble.
Crimson