First thread. Second thread. (Old thread was getting long.)
What's New: We have a big conference next week where we are supposed to hash out a settlement and it's making me really anxious. This may be one of the very last times I'll see her and I've been doing a lot of reflection. I've just confirmed with my L that I will actually be able to address her directly for the first time since February.
Need Help:I have some questions for you guys, especially the vets and any former WAWs that might be reading this.
I know that as a LBH, there's nothing I can say to change things. Her fog has to lift on its own. But I know my wife and I'm worried she may assume the worst about at me and think that I hate her, that I'm trying to screw her with the settlement, etc. I've seen her do this with her friends and co-workers where once they are on her bad side, she reads everything they do and say in the worst possible light.
1.) I really feel like I need closure and I need to apologize one last time, this time directly to her face at the conference, and let her know I don't hate her. Is there any point to this? Will it only harm any future hope at R? Divorcebusting is so hard when the WAW's complaint was not enough pursuit / engagement! What I am thinking is of saying is something along the lines of: "I am sorry things have come to this, but if this is what you need to find happiness then I understand. I know you're upset that I have a lawyer, but I didn't have a choice given the circumstances. I wish we could have done this amicably like we discussed at the start. Please know that what I am asking for in the settlement is not meant to punish you for leaving, it is just a business transaction and I am trying to look out for myself." Yes? No?
2.) My therapist (and myself) think there may have been an OM at some point for various reasons. I know the common wisdom on the internet is "once a cheater, always a cheater." Do you guys think this is true? I don't know if I do or not.
3.) How can I forgive myself for throwing my marriage away? I honestly don't know how.
Your wisdom is greatly appreciated.
Hi - I wouldn't call myself a vet and I'm not a waw, and also my wisdom is debatable... But I saw your post and hope my thoughts help a little.
#1 I liked your first sentence and I think you should stop there. All the following sentences read to me as if her interpretation of things is bugging the cr*p out of you and you want to make her understand things as you see them. She has a right to her interpretations and you can't control what she thinks. You can only control your own actions and do the right thing regardless of how it might affect her opinion of you. Some here would say you're being controlling, by trying to explain until she interprets things your way. And the "I wish" sentence implies blaming her and being defensive. I don't think you'll win points with anything but the first sentence, and I'm not sure what you'll gain in terms of taking the opportunity to speak your mind if what you choose to speak is a bunch of self-justification and finger pointing. The first sentence sounded peaceful, honest, loving, and accepting even though it isn't what you had hoped for, which sounds like just the message that would feel good to have communicated for yourself. That's my 2 cents.
2. I don't believe anything that denies the power of a person to change if they want to. I also think in a lot of cases the existence of an OP is a symptom of problems that were more within the marriage. In my sitch I have sometimes suspected but I really don't care and it really wouldn't affect my actions, because I know our marriage wasn't good. It doesn't excuse an A, it just makes an A way less relevant to me than doing the work to be better at connecting and loving. Do you have things you're focusing on working on to become a better relationship partner? Or is "once a cheater always a cheater" a way to absolve yourself of responsibility and move on without seeking personal growth?
3. Did you throw your marriage away? Or was it two people's actions and decisions that killed it, one of whose you have no control over? Do you mean how can you forgive yourself for being partially responsible for problems that led to her leaving? If that's the case, I believe, and found in my own case, that you can forgive yourself if you can learn from it and change. Good can come from bad. In my case, I could feel it's hard to forgive myself for getting lazy and taking my marriage for granted, and where does that bitterness and disappointment get me? Or I can learn why I did and practice daily being more intentional and more grateful for what I have, and practice daily applying my priorities correctly, so I can move on as a better person. Then my past faults at least got me somewhere good. Do you think that could apply to you too?
Hi - I wouldn't call myself a vet and I'm not a waw, and also my wisdom is debatable... But I saw your post and hope my thoughts help a little.
#1 I liked your first sentence and I think you should stop there. All the following sentences read to me as if her interpretation of things is bugging the cr*p out of you and you want to make her understand things as you see them. She has a right to her interpretations and you can't control what she thinks. You can only control your own actions and do the right thing regardless of how it might affect her opinion of you. Some here would say you're being controlling, by trying to explain until she interprets things your way. And the "I wish" sentence implies blaming her and being defensive. I don't think you'll win points with anything but the first sentence, and I'm not sure what you'll gain in terms of taking the opportunity to speak your mind if what you choose to speak is a bunch of self-justification and finger pointing. The first sentence sounded peaceful, honest, loving, and accepting even though it isn't what you had hoped for, which sounds like just the message that would feel good to have communicated for yourself. That's my 2 cents.
I understand what you're saying, sort of, but I have to admit it angers me that you are calling my behavior controlling, defensive, and self-justifying. I have had no control in anything pertaining to our R since the BD. If I am defensive it is because I have been accused of horrible things I did not do. Is it really self-justifying when she makes false accusations and then is shocked that I have a L?
As I type this, I am realizing that it has made me very angry that these words have been thrown at me, and maybe I haven't come along as far as I would like. It just hurts when you have been painted as an irredeemable, villainous brute for six months without a chance to defend yourself or to make amends.
Should I really just say nothing at this point? I really don't see how i'm going to come out of this meeting looking worse to her regardless of what I do or don't say.
2. I don't believe anything that denies the power of a person to change if they want to. I also think in a lot of cases the existence of an OP is a symptom of problems that were more within the marriage. In my sitch I have sometimes suspected but I really don't care and it really wouldn't affect my actions, because I know our marriage wasn't good. It doesn't excuse an A, it just makes an A way less relevant to me than doing the work to be better at connecting and loving. Do you have things you're focusing on working on to become a better relationship partner? Or is "once a cheater always a cheater" a way to absolve yourself of responsibility and move on without seeking personal growth?
I'm trying to seek personal growth, but I'm not sure exactly what my goals should be. I've kind of lost touch with who I am. I've been taking better care of myself physically, something I didn't do in our M, and I'm taking steps to fight my depression and anxiety that took a horrible toll on our M. I feel our M suffered from huge external stresses that I did not know how to deal with properly.
I take responsibility for being a lousy husband, but I don't think that excuses an affair.
3. Did you throw your marriage away? Or was it two people's actions and decisions that killed it, one of whose you have no control over? Do you mean how can you forgive yourself for being partially responsible for problems that led to her leaving? If that's the case, I believe, and found in my own case, that you can forgive yourself if you can learn from it and change. Good can come from bad. In my case, I could feel it's hard to forgive myself for getting lazy and taking my marriage for granted, and where does that bitterness and disappointment get me? Or I can learn why I did and practice daily being more intentional and more grateful for what I have, and practice daily applying my priorities correctly, so I can move on as a better person. Then my past faults at least got me somewhere good. Do you think that could apply to you too?
I think it was mostly my fault, but she even said post-BD that she was to blame too. I am learning and changing from it, but I cannot find it myself to forgive myself. I feel like I threw away the best thing that even happened to me and will never find happiness again.
Thanks for the reply, it's given me some things to chew on.
I'm surprised how strong your reaction was. I'm sorry that my words made you feel angry. It sounds like it is very important to you to be able to say your piece, to get "on record" about how wronged you were, regardless of whether it has an impact on W or not. In all likelihood, at the point you two are at, it won't have any positive impact on W.
I have had a long tendency to look at what benefit there is from saying something, and to say "what's the point". That's not necessarily good, though it works for me.
I read your words, and wasn't in any way condemning you, but was just pointing out that I felt "what's the point" about a lot of your words that you were thinking of saying. I'm sorry that hurts.
It sounds like you are doing a lot of work to rectify the depression and anxiety that contributed to your marital problems. It sounds like your lack of forgiveness for yourself (for what, being depressed?) is part of the depression. You did what you could with the tools you had at the time. Hopefully you are developing better tools and coping skills. Getting through this is a test of them. Rising above, taking care of you, and intentionally looking for and building a better future is part of fixing what you did wrong in your marriage, can you see that?
Throwing yourself under the bus and acting like no one in the world will be a better match for you than a woman who also had such poor coping skills that she cheated on her marriage...sounds to me like more of the same for you. Allowing negative thinking to hinder you.
You have so much potential. You cannot control your W. It's not your fault that she cheated, she has free will. But you need to find yourself, and grow from this or it will have been a pointless waste.
BTW I think it's really cool that you expressed your anger the way you did, instead of attacking me. You did better than I have done in my own thread when challenged.
Cripes! I posted on your other thread... Sheesh.
I'm surprised how strong your reaction was. I'm sorry that my words made you feel angry. It sounds like it is very important to you to be able to say your piece, to get "on record" about how wronged you were, regardless of whether it has an impact on W or not. In all likelihood, at the point you two are at, it won't have any positive impact on W.
I can see how you might think that, but that's not the goal of what I wanted to say to her at all. While I am very upset at the way I have been treated, the goal of what I wanted to say was to try to make things better, not to get on some sort of record as being a victim. I can see how the second and third sentences in my proposed statement could be interpreted as blaming though.
It sounds like you are doing a lot of work to rectify the depression and anxiety that contributed to your marital problems. It sounds like your lack of forgiveness for yourself (for what, being depressed?) is part of the depression. You did what you could with the tools you had at the time. Hopefully you are developing better tools and coping skills. Getting through this is a test of them. Rising above, taking care of you, and intentionally looking for and building a better future is part of fixing what you did wrong in your marriage, can you see that?
I wish I could. I think I have made big strides and if, by some miracle, we had a second chance, things would be very different. But I see taking care of me and building a better future as a selfish and solitary act and nothing to do with fixing what I did wrong in my marriage.
Throwing yourself under the bus and acting like no one in the world will be a better match for you than a woman who also had such poor coping skills that she cheated on her marriage...sounds to me like more of the same for you. Allowing negative thinking to hinder you.
Yes, I have a problem with negative thinking and it was one of my W's complaints. I thought I was doing better, but this conference has me backsliding hard. I don't know that my W cheated on me, so I am really uncomfortable with her being called a cheater.
You have so much potential. You cannot control your W. It's not your fault that she cheated, she has free will. But you need to find yourself, and grow from this or it will have been a pointless waste.
This is something I've been hashing out with my therapist. It's my negative thinking again, but sometimes I feel like my whole life has been a pointless waste.
BTW I think it's really cool that you expressed your anger the way you did, instead of attacking me. You did better than I have done in my own thread when challenged.
Well, attacking was my initial response, but I realized you are just trying to help and probably didn't mean it as I took it. I got pretty hostile with some of MrBond's comments in the past, so I guess I'm improving.
MrCas's reply from the other thread:
I think your W knows because you have already told her. My opinion is that you are looking for the same perfect works that will turn her around... the same words that all of us LBSs are looking for.
They don't exist. Seriously.
I hope she does. I told her a long time ago and a lot has changed in the sitch since then. I know those words don't exist, but wouldn't it be nice if they did?
I compliment you on the weight loss. I have lost 90 pounds in the last year and a half. I know the positive effects it will have on your life.
I have been following your sitch for awhile. I don't always say anything because other people give you great advice and I would just be parroting them.
Thanks, I'm grateful for all the support I can get. I read yours as well, I just feel like I have very little practical DB experience to offer.
I understand the depression you went through. I don't know exactly how you feel nor will I pretend to. I just understand it. I went through my own stuff.
Unemployment is a bitch. Looking for work is not a lot of fun. It is a job in itself. People who have never been through it don't understand. It is a blow to your ego. It weighs on your psyche. It creates self-doubt. BTDT.
Yes, it sure does. But right now, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel!
Holy [censored]. I just got a text from my wife.
Well, she apologized for being, in her words, "a bitch." But then she said she was sorry that she didn't fall madly in love with me. She asked if we could settle soon and said this is "killing" her.
So, still rewriting history and still wanting a D... But, she apologized for something and communicated with me for the first time in months, so that's something.
I have no idea how to respond to her text, somebody please help!!!!
Just got caught up on your sitch LC and I agree with what Advina wrote. I'm the king of wanting to say something to improve things or 'go on record' and I'm here to tell you it never made a bit of difference for me or my sitch. When I look back I can now admit it was really just a passive way for me to try to control the situation...
I understand what you're saying, sort of, but I have to admit it angers me that you are calling my behavior controlling, defensive, and self-justifying. I have had no control in anything pertaining to our R since the BD. If I am defensive it is because I have been accused of horrible things I did not do. Is it really self-justifying when she makes false accusations and then is shocked that I have a L?
As I type this, I am realizing that it has made me very angry that these words have been thrown at me, and maybe I haven't come along as far as I would like. It just hurts when you have been painted as an irredeemable, villainous brute for six months without a chance to defend yourself or to make amends.
Do you believe the things she's saying? If no then who the hell cares what she says. Does she, or what she says, define who you are?
The truth always comes out. My XW demonized me and lied about things to our family friends to get them on her side and it used to drive me crazy. Rather then stoop to that level and defend myself I just let my actions speak and let people see the real me. Guess what, the truth came out on it's own and my XW no longer even talks with these people who we've been friends with for ever (breaks my heart). My point is you can't control what kind of BS she says or does, all you control is how you act and how you react. Make sure everything you do is with honor, dignity, and grace and everything will work out in the end.
I'm trying to seek personal growth, but I'm not sure exactly what my goals should be. I've kind of lost touch with who I am.
Goal #1: Figure out who you want to be
Goal #2: Do things to achieve goal #1
I know it sounds simple but who is it you want to be? Once you figure out who that is you are in total control to make that happen.
I think it was mostly my fault, but she even said post-BD that she was to blame too.
You were each to blame for the breakdown in your M. M is a 2 way street and you are only 50% of the equation. You can own 100% of your 50% but no more than that. I used to take the blame for a lot of stuff that wasn't mine. Hell, at one point I even blamed myself for her affair. The whole spouse on a pedestal thing... You might have been an a$$ but I guarantee it wasn't all your fault so stop taking it all. Own your stuff and that's it.
I am learning and changing from it, but I cannot find it myself to forgive myself.
I've always said forgiving myself is so much harder for me then forgiving others. I'm not sure what to say to help you with this one. For me personally I started to forgive myself when I started really believing the changes I had made were real and part of me. I owned the mistakes I made and decided not to repeat them. It helped because I realized I did the best I could with the tools I had at the time. Truth be told I went into my M with a very small toolbox and wasn't able to deal with things that came up.
I feel like I threw away the best thing that ever happened to me and will never find happiness again.
Happiness comes from within yourself. Your statement has codependent all over it (i.e. your happiness is tied to your W). I felt the exact same way so I understand why you feel this way. As you continue on your journey you'll start realizing you will be happy again. Might even find you're more happy when you start living life the way you were meant to and being the person you always wanted to be.
But I see taking care of me and building a better future as a selfish and solitary act and nothing to do with fixing what I did wrong in my marriage.
You can't go back and fix what you did wrong in the M; it's in the past. All you can do is take care of yourself and build a better future. By doing that and fixing your issues aren't you fixing what you did wrong so it doesn't happen again? You have no control over fixing anything but yourself, especially since your W has shown no signs of wanting to work on the M (2 way street and both partners have to be traveling the same direction).
I have no idea how to respond to her text, somebody please help!!!!
Why do you feel need to respond right now?
I have no idea how to respond to her text, somebody please help!!!!
Why do you have to respond right now?
-PM
@#$&*!!!!
I've just been advised by my L not to respond!!!
ARRRRGH.
Hey LC,
It's probably best right now for you not to respond to text anyway. I know how you are feeling, that this might be a glimmer of hope, but until she specifically lets you know that she is 100 percent committed to working things out between the two of you, you're just setting yourself up for more heartbreak.
It's very hard to let go, but when she sees what she is missing and the fog starts to lift, then maybe she will realize what she has lost. Until then, don't let the highs get too high and the lows get too low.
Take care.
Do you believe the things she's saying? If no then who the hell cares what she says. Does she, or what she says, define who you are?
Do I believe her accusations? The ones of physical abuse, no. The ones about emotional abuse and controlling behavior, I don't know. If so, then my parents' marriage was the same way. My therapist says from the examples I gave him that it was nothing but the typical arguments a couple had. I certainly didn't mean to do those things if I did.
My point is you can't control what kind of BS she says or does, all you control is how you act and how you react. Make sure everything you do is with honor, dignity, and grace and everything will work out in the end.
Thank you, I'll try to remember that. That's going in my Evernote file full of advice from this forum.
Goal #1: Figure out who you want to be
Goal #2: Do things to achieve goal #1
I know it sounds simple but who is it you want to be? Once you figure out who that is you are in total control to make that happen.
Makes sense, but I have this fear that it is too late to become who I want to be.
You were each to blame for the breakdown in your M. M is a 2 way street and you are only 50% of the equation. You can own 100% of your 50% but no more than that. I used to take the blame for a lot of stuff that wasn't mine. Hell, at one point I even blamed myself for her affair. The whole spouse on a pedestal thing... You might have been an a$$ but I guarantee it wasn't all your fault so stop taking it all. Own your stuff and that's it.
Thank you... Thank you.. You have no idea how much guilt I feel. Well, maybe you do...
I've always said forgiving myself is so much harder for me then forgiving others. I'm not sure what to say to help you with this one. For me personally I started to forgive myself when I started really believing the changes I had made were real and part of me. I owned the mistakes I made and decided not to repeat them. It helped because I realized I did the best I could with the tools I had at the time. Truth be told I went into my M with a very small toolbox and wasn't able to deal with things that came up.
Boy, does that sound familiar. I believe I've added to my toolbox greatly since the BD.
Happiness comes from within yourself. Your statement has codependent all over it (i.e. your happiness is tied to your W). I felt the exact same way so I understand why you feel this way. As you continue on your journey you'll start realizing you will be happy again. Might even find you're more happy when you start living life the way you were meant to and being the person you always wanted to be.
I can see why you'd say that, but towards the end of my M, when my W & I were incredibly distant, my job was killing me, money troubles were nipping at our heels, and my dad was in and out of the hospital, there were times I fantasized about winning the lottery and leaving the W. That doesn't sound co-dependent to me, does it? Can you become co-dependent AFTER a relationship? For what it's worth, I see now that my unhappiness back then wasn't with my W, it was with our circumstances and a feeling that nothing could get better.
I have no idea how to respond to her text, somebody please help!!!!
Why do you feel need to respond right now? [/quote]
Mainly because it is the first time she has reached out to me since January and not responding would be MORE OF THE SAME from me. I used to do that all the time when we were together. And my damn L says I still can't respond!!!
Lefty,
Thanks for the comments in my thread.
In my view, you can respond to W but do not engage in discussions about the "settlement" as advised by L. You can keep your text short and simple.
Thank you for sharing this with me, W. I am sorry that you feel this way. Hope it will get better for you. Lefty
No, my L means to say I cannot because of the TRO and we have a pending conference with her at the end of the week anyway. He's a bit of a pitbull, though, and I have to keep reminding him my goal is to R. Anyway, he is in court all day, so I could only speak with his office.
Oh...thanks for the info as I am not yet up to speed on your sitch. Yeah, best to stick with L's advice. Sorry you're going through this.
For what it's worth, you DO have control of your L. When I got my own L, I made my instructions very clear to her: be respectful and have integrity in their interactions with the other team. You're the boss and you hired the L. If L cannot accommodate you, then find another one who fits your needs the best possible way.
Yes, I do try to keep my L on a short leash.
MrBond, Sandi2: I sure would like your input on the the new developments on my sitch.
Then don't respond. Your L told you not to, then don't. Did he tell you what you could respond to? The TRO is a big thing.
I've accepted that now, but any thoughts on what (if anything) to say at the meeting in light of the message?
Consult with you L about what you can say. You don't want to jeopardize your future by saying something wrong.
Is there anything you would recommend saying assuming my L approves it?
My L has my financial best interests at heart, but he doesn't give a damn about my hopes to eventually R.
"I talk both D6 and D12 about how hurtful moms relationship with OM is and how inappropriate it is for mom to have done that."
First of all, you don't know that. He's doing the job that YOU hired him for. He is looking out for your best interest so I would watch the insults to your own legal counsel. Plus you don't know if maybe he went through a D as well which, as you know, is very brutal.
PLUS he's probably telling you not to say anything so that you incriminate yourself in any way. TAke his lead and talk to him. You don't want your W to take anything you say and twist it around. ESPECIALLY if you start assuming guilt for things.
I'm really confused by your reply. I have no idea who you are quoting, but it's not me. My W and I do not have children.
My L has told my in no uncertain terms that his primary concern is my financial well being in this matter. I don't believe I said anything insulting about him. Are you referring to the pitbull and leash remark? It was not meant as an insult and I doubt he would take offense given the conversations we have had.
Why are you attacking me?
Yes, I can believe my L doesn't want me to say anything that could be twisted to my disadvantage. So I guess I will give my STBX "more of the same" by not responding in anyway to her first attempt at communication in six months. Makes sense.
Sorry, the wrong quote posted. It was supposed to be..."but he doesn't give a damn about my hopes to eventually R"
That wasn't an attack. It was meant to show you that you can't let these little bits of anger be misdirected. In this case it's towards your L. YOu said you wanted closure and to apologize, etc. From his POV, I can see how your W can use that to say it was all your fault (especially with the TRO) and take everything from you.
I've seen it far too many times on here.
Thank you for the advice about misdirecting my anger. To be honest, I am a little frustrated with my L because he has said he doesn't understand my desire to R and I worry he is being unnecessarily combative.
So you think there is nothing that is even worth running by my lawyer for approval before saying? Not even something "I regret our marriage is at this point, but if this is what you need, I understand?"
I'm really confused by your reply. I have no idea who you are quoting, but it's not me. My W and I do not have children.
My L has told my in no uncertain terms that his primary concern is my financial well being in this matter. I don't believe I said anything insulting about him. Are you referring to the pitbull and leash remark? It was not meant as an insult and I doubt he would take offense given the conversations we have had.
Why are you attacking me?
Yes, I can believe my L doesn't want me to say anything that could be twisted to my disadvantage. So I guess I will give my STBX "more of the same" by not responding in anyway to her first attempt at communication in six months. Makes sense.
Your rationalization hamster is sprinting here.
FWIW, I didn't read Mr. Bond's comment as an attack in any way.
-PM
"he has said he doesn't understand my desire to R"
Your W has an unfounded TRO against you. Most people wouldn't understand.
Don't say anything until the dust has cleared legally. After that, you can tell her whatever you want.
Can I ask you a personal question? Do you think I am foolish to want to R in light of the unfounded TRO? Do you think it indicates codependence or low self esteem?
Wanting to reunite with a woman that you had fallen in love with- Not foolish at all.
Do you have codependence/ esteem issues - YES
How do I know? - If you didnt have issues you wouldnt have asked the question
Its been one hell of a year for you. The legal sitch being over may help but you just need some more time for a rebuild - THE RIGHT WAY!
....and some victories along the way
"Do you think I am foolish to want to R in light of the unfounded TRO? Do you think it indicates codependence or low self esteem?"
Of course not. This is your WIFE we're talking about. Not a random stranger. The problem is that many people toss around the word "codependence" around here. The thing is that to a certain degree that's what M is. It's depending on the other person. If we didn't need anyone we'd all be single.
The person who you loved and trusted above all others...the person you were going to spend the rest of your life with... betrayed you. That hurts and would make anyone search for answers. You're not crazy at all.
Thank you. Sometimes I worry, but I think it is just that my level of commitment when I am myself and thinking clearly (and not mired in the depths of depression like I was during my marriage) is unusual today.
On an unrelated note, I got my first taste of STBX bashing from another family member today. I advised him his reading of her actions was uncharitable and he let it go.
2.) My therapist (and myself) think there may have been an OM at some point for various reasons. I know the common wisdom on the internet is "once a cheater, always a cheater." Do you guys think this is true? I don't know if I do or not.
I don't know where that started, but it is not true.
Thank you, sandi2. I always thought it was untrue, but then I reflected on the few confirmed cheaters I knew and realized that they haven't changed their spots. I want to believe in change and redemption, and it's nice to know most people here do too.
Any thoughts on how I should act & if I should say anything at the settlement hearing?
This is what I would like to say to her at the conference IF my L approves:
"I'm sorry I didn't reply to your text Sunday. I wanted to, but my L advised me not to. I'm sorry this is difficult for you. It's difficult for me, too. I regret we've come to this point, but if this is what you need to find happiness, I understand."
The first sentence is because I would often be uncommunicative during our M. The second is my attempt at validating. The third is an attempt to be honest about my feelings. The fourth is another attempt at validation.
Thoughts?
Let it go. You continually seek to want to have the last word in. Let it go. You can talk to her about it after things have been settled.
MrBond: I am trying to understand why you feel I am "continually" trying to have the last word. I have not been trying to have the last word since I read the DB books in mid-January. I have been unable to have ANY words since February!
I am trying to respond to the first contact from my STBX and establish a dialogue and I'm trying to employ the principles of validating and 180s... Can you please explain why I shouldn't talk about it beforehand and instead wait until after?
Why am I not understanding DB principles as you are prescribing them?
This has nothing to do with DB principles.
Your L recommended you not say anything. Yet you continually have an itch about telling your W about how you understand how she felt, etc. Things that you had already told her before over the span of this whole situation.
Protect yourself first (based off of what L is saying) and after things are settled, you can tell her whatever you want. After all, her heart hasn't softened at all since she hasn't dropped the TRO against you. Saying something now isn't going to progress your situation.
Leftie... I can understand the urge to get in the last word. I have the same urges. I have resisted every urge to do so. I have resisted every urge to respond to her FB stuff before I blocked her off my news feed back in early May and her ultimately unfriending me and blocking me (she did me a favor and did not know it).
I want to say a lot of the same things to my w that you do. However, refer back to the conversation I had with myself... "What magic words could you possibly say to W that will miraculously make her see the light?" Uhmmmmmm. None.
I have a philosophy that maybe me not saying anything is actually getting in the last word. Having nothing to say can speak volumes.
Cripes, I forgot to check the follow box again dagnabbit!
Lefty,
Your comment here caught my attention:
To be honest, I am a little frustrated with my L because he has said he doesn't understand my desire to R and I worry he is being unnecessarily combative.
This is where you are mistaken...you DO have control over your L. You might want to have a talk with L about your concerns about the 'combativeness' issue. Set your boundary with L and watch carefully. From the very first meeting with my own L, I outlined my expectations and what I expected of them when interacting with DXW's lawyers. There were a few times when I saw that DXW's lawyer tried to be aggressive and I did not allow my L to respond in that same fashion.
I believe it is what pretty much saved my R with DXW where we are now slowly reconnecting as friends after 9 years of no communication. Because she does not have the memory of an ugly, drawn out fight with the L's.
You decide and take back your power.
Yes, I am in agreement with other posters who urge you to follow your L's advice because of the outstanding TRO. Yet, you do have influence on your own L's behavior and actions that are separate from receiving sound legal advice.
Leftie... I can understand the urge to get in the last word. I have the same urges. I have resisted every urge to do so. I have resisted every urge to respond to her FB stuff before I blocked her off my news feed back in early May and her ultimately unfriending me and blocking me (she did me a favor and did not know it).
I want to say a lot of the same things to my w that you do. However, refer back to the conversation I had with myself... "What magic words could you possibly say to W that will miraculously make her see the light?" Uhmmmmmm. None.
I have a philosophy that maybe me not saying anything is actually getting in the last word. Having nothing to say can speak volumes.
MrCAS: Thanks for stopping by and the follow! I'm still not sure how I'm trying to get in the last word. I just want to reply to the first communication from my W since January. I'm trying to further a dialogue, not get in the "last word."
You might want to have a talk with L about your concerns about the 'combativeness' issue. Set your boundary with L and watch carefully. From the very first meeting with my own L, I outlined my expectations and what I expected of them when interacting with DXW's lawyers. There were a few times when I saw that DXW's lawyer tried to be aggressive and I did not allow my L to respond in that same fashion.
Thanks for the advice, Wonka! I'll keep that in mind.
This is going to be a weird conference, I guess my L will do all the talking to my W and I will just sit there. It's going to be a fine tightrope to walk to do this without looking like an arrogant jerk or a mopey dope.
Wish me luck.
The last word meaning explaining yourself yet again. You have already explained yourself to her. There is no need to do it again.
I used to work for a couple. The W would explain her side seven different ways and yet say the same thing over and over ad nauseum. Because of dealing with her, I learned that I wanted to do the same with my W... Say the same things over and over but worded differently whilst secretly hoping I would stumble across the magic words that would change her mind. Learning from other people's pain I have learned that these words do not exist in any known language that our WASs will ever understand.
Dignity. Integrity. These are what you are going to need to show her. I believe you have it in you.
Thank you, sandi2. I always thought it was untrue, but then I reflected on the few confirmed cheaters I knew and realized that they haven't changed their spots. I want to believe in change and redemption, and it's nice to know most people here do too.
Any thoughts on how I should act & if I should say anything at the settlement hearing?
I have never had the experience (thank God)of a settlement hearing,so that's one reason I've hesitated in responding. I think I can see both sides of this situation. I can identify with being the one who wants to explain their actions. Call it a need for justification or fairness, I don't know. But I think I
get you wanting the opportunity to just explain things to your W, so she won't have misunderstandings about your part of the settlement, and to know that you own your part of the breakdown, etc.
The other side is how your W may see this. She may
prefer that the two lawyers do all the talking. If you began directing conversation at her....it may embarrass her or make her very angry. I just don't think it will be received with the same emotion that you give it. The time & place may seem to be most appropriate to you....but it may not feel that way at all to her (as crazy as it may seem to you).
I know you have a very strong need to tell her these things on your heart. If you are forced to leave this M, you want to leave with her not thinking something
worse than she did in the beginning of this process.
As I said before, I have the same needs with people who aren't even close to me. So, would I be too far out in left field if I thought the same about you? This is really what you are needing b/c you can't stand to think of ending things with you looking like the bad guy. You just want to "explain".
Let me ask you....why do you have to say it at the hearing? Is it b/c you would be face to face with her? Could you not wait until it is over and maybe put it in an email or letter? Give it a couple of days to cool down, so her emotions won't be wound as tightly. Speaking from the other side of the fence, I don't think she will be receptive of anything you try to say to her the day of the hearing. "Timing" is everything!
Thanks again for the reply, I'm on my way out the door but will re-read it and try to absorb it later this morning. Just wanted to clarify my W does not have a L.
I have never had the experience (thank God)of a settlement hearing,so that's one reason I've hesitated in responding. I think I can see both sides of this situation. I can identify with being the one who wants to explain their actions. Call it a need for justification or fairness, I don't know. But I think I get you wanting the opportunity to just explain things to your W, so she won't have misunderstandings about your part of the settlement, and to know that you own your part of the breakdown, etc.
Thank you! I was beginning to think nobody understood my intentions here...
The other side is how your W may see this. She may prefer that the two lawyers do all the talking. If you began directing conversation at her....it may embarrass her or make her very angry.
Yeah, see, she doesn't have a L, so she will be doing all the talking for herself and I believe she already feels put-upon by this. That has been impression by previous court engagements. She has expressed anger that I have a lawyer. Our initial intent after the BD was to have an amicable D with the help of one of her work friends who is a paralegal. I didn't feel entirely comfortable with that, but I tried to work with the paralegal briefly. I studied on my rights and intended to have a L look at a hypothetical settlement before I signed anything. My W was never present at the meetings. My W's initial settlement offer was outrageous and I let the PL know that. The TRO was filed a few weeks later before anything else could proceed, and it was at that point that I got a L. I'm not sure what else she expected me to do.
I just don't think it will be received with the same emotion that you give it. The time & place may seem to be most appropriate to you....but it may not feel that way at all to her (as crazy as it may seem to you).
No, I'm sure you're right. Even though she tried to communicate with me for the first in months over the weekend, her text was very much textbook WAW. The only thing about this time/place is that it seems like it will be the last time I will be face-to-face with her.
I know you have a very strong need to tell her these things on your heart. If you are forced to leave this M, you want to leave with her not thinking something worse than she did in the beginning of this process.
EXACTLY!!!
As I said before, I have the same needs with people who aren't even close to me. So, would I be too far out in left field if I thought the same about you? This is really what you are needing b/c you can't stand to think of ending things with you looking like the bad guy. You just want to "explain".
Well, I WAS a bad guy during our M by neglecting her needs and taking her for granted. I just want her to know that I've stopped,I'm sorry, I don't hate her for what she felt she had to do, and I wish her the best. I'm glad you understand and don't think I'm being an unattractive wuss of a man. I've seen you swing a clue-by-four pretty hard at some of the other people around here.
Let me ask you....why do you have to say it at the hearing? Is it b/c you would be face to face with her? Could you not wait until it is over and maybe put it in an email or letter? Give it a couple of days to cool down, so her emotions won't be wound as tightly. Speaking from the other side of the fence, I don't think she will be receptive of anything you try to say to her the day of the hearing. "Timing" is everything!
Yeah, like I said above, it's mainly a combination of her text on the weekend (first one since January, it feels like a tiny crack in her armor), the content of her text, and the feeling that this will be the last chance I will have to say something to her face. After she left on BD, she refused to communicate face-to-face again. It was all email, text, or voice calls.
I'm sure you're right about the timing though. I know how tense I am right now and I have a L who will be doing all the heavy lifting. I guess I just have to hope that the proceedings don't make her angrier again. Maybe she will finally drop the TRO. (Ha, I doubt it.)
I wish I didn't have to be there. Like I said earlier, it will be a hard tightrope to walk to 1) keep a PMA, 2) not look like an arrogant jerk, and 3) not look like a mopey dope.
Thank you again for checking in on me, I really value your input!
Two hours to go, I don't think I've ever been so nervous in my life. Wish me luck.
Honor. Dignity. Integrity.
"I was beginning to think nobody understood my intentions here... "
NO we ALL understand what your intentions are. We've all been in your shoes.
What you failed to understand is that we were telling you just what Sandi told you. You didn't need to tell her what you needed to RIGHT NOW. There is a time and place for everything and for you with a W who has a TRO on you, now probably wasn't the best time.
To what MrBond has to say... "BINGO!"
Pick a prize from the second shelf, please.
Lefty-
You are "in it" right now as I type - I am praying for you my friend
Me, too, PS... Rooting for you, Lefty!
Well, I wasn't expecting THAT.
The TRO has been dropped!!!
Now the bad news: The wife is still adamant that we were not good for each other. BUT, she wants to be able to talk one-on-one without the court mediating. AND she admitted my L's settlement offer was equitable. AND she said she wants the best for both of us and she still "wants to be friends."
Now the really, really bad news: She has an illness that could be potentially very serious. She is supposed to hear back in a week or so. I asked and she said she did not know about it before she left.
For the legal eagles: My L sees nothing wrong with my W & I talking one-on-one without him there. He said he does not believe her illness is a ruse and said even if it were, I am safe from any possible debts she may incur.
I guess to most people things would sound pretty hopeless, but I feel very fortunate to be where I am now. Finally, I can put DB principles to work! I am, however, truly concerned about my W's health. I asked if there was anything I could do and she demurred, said her family was helping her I told her she looked good and she said that I do too. I told her I was sorry we ended up where we are and I told her that if this is what she needs to find happiness, I am for it. I validated her opinions at every chance and did not try to convince, wheedle, bargain. We talked for 5-10 minutes but she had to get back to her job. I ended the conversation first (DBing, baby!).
Now to re-re-read DB & DR!
(AND, (because I know you're going to say it, and I know how I am) TO NOT GET MY HOPES UP.)
Hey, Lefty... What does DB say about mind reading? Huh? Huh? You don't know what I am thinking or what i was going to say... LOL!
I am thinking about getting some ice cream. A little one.
God, it just hit me how serious my W's illness could be.
Please pray for her.
Prayers from my house, brother.
Hi Lefty! Congrats on getting the TRO lifted - great news!
And so sorry about your W's health - sending positive vibes and prayers your way!
Im praying
Remember, Stay strong- keep on your program....you dont know what surprises await
Thank you everyone for all the support you've given me over the past months and especially over the last few weeks. The DB books and this forum have given me the strength to survive the most trying time of my life, to grow, and develop new skills. Now that my W has dropped the TRO, I hope it will now give me the strength and wisdom to stop this darn D and win my wife back.
I've been doing a lot of thinking since the events of yesterday. Her dropping the TRO and being amenable to the settlement agreement was not anything I could have ever expected. Now I find myself dwelling on her illness. I was stunned by the first two events, by the time she told me about her illness I was flabbergasted and could barely speak. I didn't want to pry, so I let her tell me what she comfortable telling me in the 5-10 minutes we had to talk. (As I said in my previous post, she said she had to go back to work and I wanted to be the first to end the conversation (per DB) so I said "Well, I'm sure I'll be hearing from you soon."
Now I feel guilty about not being more inquisitive and showing more of an interest. Did I do the right thing? Keep in mind I was emotionally checked-out for most of our marriage and that is one of my 180s. As I recall (remember, stunned), she said is supposed to have some diagnosis/prognosis results in the next week or two. Should I reach out if I don't hear from her in a week? Two? Should I reach out now? Should I wait as long as necessary until she reaches out? I don't want to pressure her at all.
I want so much to be there for her through her illness. I guess I've discovered one of my LL is service. I asked her if there was anything I could do, but she demurred and said her family was there for her. I got the sense that she wasn't getting as much support as she would have liked from them. She said there some sort of crisis going on in her family too. She wasn't specific about this either.
Today/tonight's GAL agenda: Catch a movie, sell some stuff on eBay, read at least a chapter of DR, see if my friend who was said he might be in town this weekend made it.
Thanks for the prayers for my W's health and I hope you'll continue to keep her in your thoughts and prayers until she gets an all-clear.
Lefty,
What a dramatic change in your sitch in regard to the TRO being dropped! WTG!!
In regard to your desire to support W through her illness, you can do it in a way that does not appear to exert pressure on W. You could say something like this in a text to W:
Hey there! I'm checking in to see how you're doing. I can only image that you might be feeling scared about this illness. I am here if you need to talk and I will support you in any way I can.Then leave it at that. No need to over-explain yourself. KISS..Keep It Short and Simple.
I hope it will now give me the strength and wisdom to stop this darn D and win my wife back.
So, you found the secret answer to stop something you didn't start? Share it with the rest of us mortals...
You need to detach yourself some more. Don't think about trying to use an illness as a way to weedle back in. I think the suggestion of telling your w that you will be there if she needs something and leave it at that.
Dropping the TRO should also not be thought of as an open invitation to open up a dialogue with your W except for the offer for support.
I know it is big tempting plum... just sitting there... glistening... calling your name...
Be strong, Lefty...
So, you found the secret answer to stop something you didn't start? Share it with the rest of us mortals...
Would it help if I substituted the word "bust" for "stop?"
You need to detach yourself some more. Don't think about trying to use an illness as a way to weedle back in. I think the suggestion of telling your w that you will be there if she needs something and leave it at that.
You're right, I think I do need to detach more. I think I will wait until at least a week from our last conversation before I text. I do not to pressure her at all.
Dropping the TRO should also not be thought of as an open invitation to open up a dialogue with your W except for the offer for support.
I know you're almost definitely right, but she did resume talking about wanting to remain friends and it must have taken a lot of courage to drop the TRO when her friends and legal advisors were advising her not to. Still, our conversation was so brief, I didn't really get a good sense of where her head is at, and I'm going to be very slow and cautious about this. Baby steps.
I'm trying. Still GAL, PMA. One chapter into my third read of DR. Saw
Pacific Rim last night. If you want to see a movie about giant robots punching giant monsters, it's the movie for you! One of my buddies going all the way back to grade school days is in town and we're gonna grab some coffee and chat. Going to church tomorrow for the first time in years and I'm going to pray for my W's health.
"Bust" is a better word. I would lose win though. Your W is not a prize. You get to keep prizes with no effort. She is not a possession. She is a valued piece of your life you want to ivite back into your life.
Your mission, if you decide to accept, is to become the spouse that only a fool would leave.
Good luck, Lefty.
This message will self destruct in five seconds.
Church and honoring Him is a great part of GAL.
It has been for me. I know it has been for others.
"Bust" is a better word. I would lose win though. Your W is not a prize. You get to keep prizes with no effort. She is not a possession. She is a valued piece of your life you want to ivite back into your life.
Point taken. Thank you for the correction!
Your mission, if you decide to accept, is to become the spouse that only a fool would leave. Good luck, Lefty. This message will self destruct in five seconds.
**cue lalo schifrin theme*
I heard from the W tonight. She texted me to ask me for a favor. I, regrettably, couldn't help her out, but we had a brief conversation and I got some more details about her illness. I did, however, screw up and didn't end the conversation first.
I felt a little bad about that, but continued with my evening. A couple of hours later, I was finishing Chapter 2 of DR, and I came across this passage:
If you and your spouse are separated and s/he wants little to do with you, consider it a baby step forward if your mate asks you for a favor.
So that's what I'm doing, I'm allowing myself to celebrate and feel positive, per the other passages in that section. Two baby steps in one week!
I hope everyone is having a good weekend.
I'm shallow and I focus on the shallow pieces of our lives because our wives are uncontrollable flakes .
Church is good. I fell away from it because of some extreme views that the old timers preached......but it feels good thinking there is a bigger plan....and hope:)
If your w reaches out be a friend - just don't overcompensate.
Keep up the diet, keep up the job search, keep up the exercise and the volunteering..........you give of yourself - at your own expense sometimes. Don't lose what you have gained in this short time.
I want you to be successful
Those represent a good step...
When i was collecting debt for a living, a lot of the clients I dealt with were wondering why I was willing to accept small payments on larger debts. I explained that the small payments stopped the calls, stopped the accumulation of interest, and moved the account in a positive direction.
The same principle applies to you. You are making deposits in her love bank account. Keep making the deposits. No withdrawls.
"The same principle applies to you. You are making deposits in her love bank account. Keep making the deposits. No withdrawls."
I like this. My W has also started to ask little favors. I didn't remember that line from DR.
"I didn't remember that line from DR."
It isn't.
It is from Marriage Builders... Willard and Joyce Harley. I used to listen to them on the radio. I should have listened better.
Oh, I confused things - I liked your line, but what I didn't remember from DR was:
"If you and your spouse are separated and s/he wants little to do with you, consider it a baby step forward if your mate asks you for a favor." that LeftBehind quoted.
I've been getting a lot of those all of a sudden, so I am curious as to whynthe change, but.... I fear I'm in danger of threadjacking here, so I'll bunk back over to my own post. ;-)
Lefty, I guess it is. Geez, sorry.
I'm shallow and I focus on the shallow pieces of our lives because our wives are uncontrollable flakes .
Church is good. I fell away from it because of some extreme views that the old timers preached......but it feels good thinking there is a bigger plan....and hope:)
If your w reaches out be a friend - just don't overcompensate.
Keep up the diet, keep up the job search, keep up the exercise and the volunteering..........you give of yourself - at your own expense sometimes. Don't lose what you have gained in this short time.
I want you to be successful
I want you to be successful, too, buddy. You're too hard on yourself, you're not shallow!
You know I'm keeping all that stuff up. Down to 188 this morning! Haven't heard anything from my W today, but that's okay.
Church was good today. Met some really nice people and lit a candle for my W. Got together with my grade-school buddy for coffee, too.
You are making deposits in her love bank account. Keep making the deposits. No withdrawals.
Beautiful metaphor, I'll remember that. Thank you!
Good morning fellow DBers!
I'm not going to lie, I was kind of disappointed how my last text conversation (on 7/27) ended with my wife. I texted her something as part of the conversation and she didn't reply. No goodbye or anything. I hope it wasn't something I said.
I was hoping I would hear back from her later, but nothing. That's okay though, because I'm still GAL, still losing weight, still looking for a better job, and still keeping a PMA. Trying to keep expectations low and trying to keep detached or even improve detachment.
I re-re-read Chapter 3 (Goals) of DR last night. In it, MWD gave an example of the LBS of a separated couple setting goals. Do you think it is too early for me to do that? I know MWD says to keep the goals small and realistic, what do you think good goals would be for me?
I had a really good day yesterday, and I'm going to have one today, too!
You will have to shed some more light on what the conversation was...
Also, remember, no expectations. Expectations are the root of ill feelings.
We were talking about her illness. She specified what sort of procedure she was likely going to have to have, and I sympathized with her, said I was glad she had a good support group, and said that my mother had the same procedure and that if my W wanted to talk to someone who had been through it, I'm sure she would be willing to do that.
In hindsight, I'm worried that could be interpreted as pressuring. She was pretty close to my mother.
I'm not going to beat myself up too much over it, though. I'm going to learn from it and choose my words even more carefully in the future. NO EXPECTATIONS.
You worry too much... LOL!
Seriously, I don't think you were pressuring but I don't live in your W's head, either. Hard to say what she thought.
Don't beat yourself up... That's our job. I stole one of uR's tire tools when she wasn't looking...
You worry too much... LOL!
Seriously, I don't think you were pressuring but I don't live in your W's head, either. Hard to say what she thought.
Okay. I just thought it was weird she didn't say "I gotta run" or anything like that. Just didn't reply.
Don't beat yourself up... That's our job. I stole one of uR's tire tools when she wasn't looking...
Uh oh... Not the face! Not the face!
Maybe your wife didn't realize that your Mom had the same procedure done, perhaps? Could be she didn't know how to take that?
Since I KNOW your not sitting around waiting for your wifes next text..........What are you doing today???
Aerobic i hope, to stop your thoughts from swirling
188? VERY NICE- thats 1 pd away from BMI Normal for you....Right?
Push some weight around today Stud!
After work, I'm going to run some errands, clean some stuff out my storage unit, and talk to some people about getting rid of an antique desk that I've "been meaning to restore" for a few years now. Finally admitted to myself it's never going to happen. The weather out here has cooled down here to a brisk 97, so I might go on a bike ride after work. A few nights ago, I made a new goal to myself to read a chapter of something every night, so Chapter 4 of DR is on the schedule for tonight, too.
Wish I could make it to Boston, but it's not in the cards. Tell everyone Lefty says "Howdy."
Still have 4 pounds until normal BMI... Man, what a day that is going to be. It's so damn weird seeing 18x on the scale.
It's so damn weird seeing 18x on the scale.
Yes. I concur. I have not weighed 180 pounds since November of 1985. It is strange to see numbers like that on my scale, too.
It feels great, doesn't it?
Well, I heard from my W again tonight.
She texted to ask another favor. A financial one this time—she said money is tight and she needs to pay rent to her parents and make a payment to her paralegal. I said I would have to think about it.
Internally, I was pretty irked by this request. Money is really tight for me, too, especially since I'm the one solely making the huge car payment that is in both our names every month. I mean, I guess it probably took something to ask, but I'm not sure if its humility or chutzpah.
I know MWD says someone in my case should look on a WAW asking for a favor as a baby step forward, but I almost feel like she is trying to take advantage of my desire to reconcile and what I like to think is my generous nature. In both of these texts, she hasn't talked about anything but her request.
Thoughts?
Don't give her the money. It was HER choice to leave right? She has to deal with the consequences. Why should you even pay for the paralegal? It's like you paying for something you didn't want.
If you are going to lend her the money, then emphasize "lend" and see when you can get the money back.
No, I'm with you, MrBond. Even if I had the money, which I don't, I would be extremely reluctant to part with it for the reason you said-- it's like paying for something I don't want.
During our initial back-and-forth texts last night, I stopped replying when she said something that didn't need replying to. She followed up a couple hours later with another text about the money and having my L & her PL work together.
I'm really curious as to what her thought process for this request is. I mean, asking the spouse you filed for divorce from to help you pay for their legal aid? There is no way I would have the chutzpah to do the same if I were in her position. I feel like she is testing me, but for what? Generosity? Financial stability? Exploitability?
I'm curious where her money has gone since she left, since I cannot think of many expenses she must have. She said she was medical leave for part of it, but still...
She said the PL needs a payment by Friday, so I think the right thing to do would be to let my W know ASAP that I cannot help so that she can make alternate arrangements.
I feel bad because I told her to let me know if I can do anything, and she has asked for two favors and I haven't been able to help her with either of them. Then again, I'm pretty disappointed that's all her contact has been about. No "how are you," etc. Is that unreasonable to want at this point in my sitch?
Does anyone have any advice on how to phrase my reply to her request? Please keep in mind that one of my faults as a husband was a lack of a empathy. I'm thinking: "[Name], I'm sorry I can't help with you with a loan, but my finances just won't let me do it at this time. If there's any other way I can help, please let me know."
Im sorry, I cant afford to help you right now.
Im curious why shed rather go to you then ask her parents for more time on the rent?
Lesson Im learning right now.....When the reality starts to hit them they will blame you for their sitch.
No guilt- THEY made the choice
Head held high Lefty
I have no idea, PS. I don't know why she is paying her parents' rent in the first place, they had the extra room. I do, however, know there's no point in asking her these questions.
I have no idea why the figure she quoted for her PL was so high, either. My guess from the number she quoted is that she hasn't made any payments to the PL from the start. Meanwhile, I'm still making payments on the damn court filing fees from February!
I'm expecting some blowback from my inability to help on her first two favors, but that's the way the cookie crumbles, I guess.
Can anyone else chime in on the bolded questions above?
Also, when the WAW talks about how we were not a good couple, etc. That's not something I should be validating, is it?
Sure...
Is it unreasonable to be annoyed that the thing she is asking for is money? Nope. Not in my book.
I wouldn't give her any money. Giving her monetary help right now sets a dangerous precedent. If you give her money now and she asks for more... what do you say then?
W - "But Lefty... you gave me money before and now I REALLY need some..."
L- "But... but... but..."
W- "See? See how you are? You haven't changed a bit! Oh, nice ass, BTW..."
Just thinking...
Oh, I'd love it if she said, "nice ass" to me!
Seriously though, I know you're right. What about my question on validation?
Interesting question, lefty...
How to validate negative issues...
How about... "I see it as a situation that feed off of each side and resulted to where we are right now. You have made a good point. Yes."
"Could you define "good" as it pertains to us? I would like to understand your side and where you are coming from."
Just thinking some more...
My W told me that I was looking good. All i said was "Thank you".
"Yeah, baby... I did all for you!" How about.. "Well, since you left me for a lard ass, I decided that needed to look as hot as I could to get me another woman."
That might have been good, eh?
Uhmmmmm... No.
Hahahahahahahahahaha!
Last time the W gave me the "we're just not good for each other" spiel I said, "I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that" and smiled. I figured I didn't want to agree but I didn't want to appear disagreeable or wheedling. I'll remember your suggestions next time I get the spiel, because I'm sure I will.
Yes. I understand the spiel.
I got the "It is a moot point" spiel. Yeah.
Well, I'm not sure if her reply was genuinely understand or tight-lipped anger, but it went better than expected.
I wonder how long until I hear from her again, and what the reasons for it will be? I miss just talking with her, I was hoping there would be some that. It's only been a week since we have started talking again, so I guess there's time.
I see Mr. Expectation peeking around the corner at you...
Throw a rock at him. Flip him the bird. Drop your drawers and give him a Moon Pie.
Yes, I know. I keep reminding myself not to expect anything. Still, it is a difficult thing have hope without expectations. I'm not a zen master yet, but I'm working on it.