History:
Thread 1: Thanks Thread 2: Becoming PatientMan - D was finalized on Tuesday morning.
- I am experiencing a flurry of emotions from all over the spectrum - I certainly didn't expect this type of a range.
- I have felt a general non-attraction to XW since this past weekend (before date of D was known - found out Monday, D on Tuesday). That has continued and while not completely "new" to me, it's new for it to persist.
Coming here and sharing my thoughts, getting feedback from all of you who have been kind enough to read through my typically overly-verbose posts
...this has been nothing short of friggin' outstanding for me and I thank all of you from the bottom of my heart.
I'll pull some stuff from the previous thread into this one at some point, but just wanted to get a new one started since the other is closed.
Make today great!
-PM
Hey PM,
Thanks for the congrats and best of luck. Each day brings new opportunities and challenges to make into opportunities. It's been one week since the first mention of trying for the MRS, but it's put me in flux in my emotions. Not that I don't want to work at it, but it just juggles you so much just as much as the D being final for you. You knew it was coming and I thought there was a potential for my W to change her mind, but doesn't mean it will not mess you up.
I'm obviously stoked at our recent discussions, but I can't tell you how bad the undertow has been into panicking. Trying to focus again on what I can control without getting ahead of myself. I feel like I need to be patient for both me and the MRS as she scares herself with not wanting to go back to where we were just a few months ago (which I don't want either).
Enough of my crapola, you have been an inspiration to me in my journey and I know you'll continue to be. It's wonderful taking time to focus on one's self and really making those positive changes. I've always thought I had to give everything of myself to my kids not realizing if I don't take care of myself how much I'd lose. Now that I see how much focusing on me and being the best me possible provides more opportunities to be the great dad, husband and person for everyone in my life. It's just a matter of perspective, patience and focus. Just glad to be here!!
Trying
I am having very...difficult(?) feeling towards XW. I don't want to talk to her. I don't want to see her. I don't want to be best buds.
I look at her and I don't see her the same way. (She told me she went through the same thing with me pre-OM and pre-BD, so I'm not surprised other than that this is actually taking place.)
Maybe this will go away, or maybe this is another piece breaking loose.
-PM
PM - Sorry you're feeling these things because I know it weighs heavy on your ability to be patient. I had the same reaction once things settled and we moved quickly into D mode. Just no need for conversation or seeing them.
With the D being official, these feelings may develop more for you and you must be prepared for that. Key is to not let those feelings change your need to be the man you want to be for your daughters and for you.
Trying
Hi PatientMan~~Thanks for stopping by and offering support. I will get caught up with where you are with things in your sitch. I hope you are having a good day. Thanks again and take care
Somebody else mentioned that they went through sandi2's 37 rules and found that, though they were difficult at first, were now fully implementing all of them without even thinking about it. So I decided to do the same, and I am honestly 36/37. My miss is #19:
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment...
I am having trouble faking it...acting "as if" with a particular set of emotions - the set that doesn't want to be around her. I can act not sad/depressed/grieving, but when I don't want to be around her I just can't seem to mask it.
With as busy as we both are, I guess it isn't that big of a deal. I just realize that the PatientMan that has moved forward with his life and is detached from XW wouldn't be experiencing this set of emotions. So it's proof to both her and me that I'm not there. And it certainly isn't attractive to be standoffish, but when I feel that way I really don't care if she finds me attractive.
Yes, I want her to see what she's missing, and being standoffish doesn't help me in that department. I want to be there...where I don't care. But right now I think about the quick list of things she has done (not absolving my own responsibility), and
I'm not past that list.
Maybe I need do need to get it off my chest and just tell her. I can't figure out how to get past it by other means. Which is ironic because if I'm past it then I wouldn't need to tell her...
On my list of goals (end of last thread) was to truly forgive XW. Somehow, though, I seem to "need" two things:
1) Me to tell her what is bothering me and why I'm so hurt by what she's done.
2) Her to acknowledge that these things were she did were wrong.
Well that^ isn't true forgiveness. Forgiveness doesn't come with conditions.
I think I'm back to needing space. While she is acting all hunky dory, I'm just hurt and not okay with her. And maybe that breaks a "rule", but I think it's okay to need my own space.
And when I think about space I realize it pushes her away, and I don't want that. What a mess I am! Aargh!
Maybe I never really held her accountable for her actions in my mind pre-D (well, at least pre-April when I started to feel different). And now that D is final, I'm looking back on what has transpired and accepting the behavior and choices for what they really were, and my mind if finally catching up to reality. I suppose her transgressions were forgivable offenses if she and I reconciled. As time went on I realized more and more that serious work was needed for me to accept her back (but I would still accept her), but now that M is officially/legally over, the reality is fully settling in.
Goodness gracious. I swear I don't intend these posts to be this long when I get started. My mind just starts processing information as I type and the thoughts just come vomiting out.
-PM
Hi PatientMan~~ I can very much understand where you are right now. I have the same feelings about my H that I am stuck in right now. I am trying very hard to work thru the fact that H is having affair with a JW. I too feel that forgiveness should not have conditions but then in my messed up mind I rationalize that he should not have been able to give himself a condition to go outside our M and look for what he had right in front of him. Only you can decide what you are willing to do and what you can tolerate. I know for myself as hard as it is I want so much to try and stand and work on things. I need to GAL and get my PMA working. We are here walking this road with you. Sending you hugs and strength. Take care of yourself.
And then I read something like this from sandi2:
It took me two years to reach the point of where I could lay down my pride and resentment and truly tell my H I was sorry, and to stop pointing fingers. He wouldn't go with me to see a MC, or anybody, and we had nobody to help us as a couple. The help I received was right here on this board. It was LBH's just like you who taught me how badly I had hurt the man who loved me the most. Even admitting to the board members (and my H) what I had done was wrong, I still had not hit that point of being humble. I would go to church, and I would pray that God would help me to feel remorse instead of resentment. I had years & years of resentment toward my H built up in me. I prayed for God's forgiveness, but it took a long time before I could even start to forgive myself.
So, you see, "knowing" I was wrong was the first step, but it's not enough to heal a M. Being raised in a very strict Christian home, and having a set of great role models (parents) placed a high value on M & family. So, I knew my heart was not what it should be in order to have a happy M with my H. What I'm trying to say is that I had a lot of stuff to work out in me. I had to actually forgive my H (even though he never asked b/c he didn't think he had done anything wrong), and then I had to stop blaming him for the past.
...and it makes me realize again how much I hurt her and that I should just STFU and leave her be. Hearing from me what she did to me probably won't facilitate anything positive for her.
-PM
All pretty normal thoughts and feelings PM...
Allow yourself TIME, and PATIENCE to work through these things. Don't bottle them up and store them away...
Feel them all, to fuel you being better in the future...
And hell, the future could very well be with her...
Ya never know buddy
...and it makes me realize again how much I hurt her and that I should just STFU and leave her be. Hearing from me what she did to me probably won't facilitate anything positive for her.
I'm glad you said this because it saved me a lot of typing
Seriously, I understand you want those 2 things above but from my own experience it didn't help me to forgive. I told her how she hurt me regarding her treatment of me and the A's and she just stared at me and rather then feel like I was heard it built more resentment. Do you want to get it off your chest to make you feel better or is it because you're hoping for remorse from her? If it's to get remorse...
Your 2nd thing, may never happen and if it does will come on our W's timetables only. Even with that the biggest thing for true forgiveness is time. We can want to forgive and say it all we want but when the hurt is still so real and vivid I think it's dang near impossible to truly forgive 100%.
Maybe I never really held her accountable for her actions in my mind pre-D (well, at least pre-April when I started to feel different). And now that D is final, I'm looking back on what has transpired and accepting the behavior and choices for what they really were, and my mind if finally catching up to reality. I suppose her transgressions were forgivable offenses if she and I reconciled. As time went on I realized more and more that serious work was needed for me to accept her back (but I would still accept her), but now that M is officially/legally over, the reality is fully settling in.
2 things here to think about
Sounds like you are taking your W off the pedestal you had her on and seeing the reality. This is a good thing and will help you move on along your path. It helped me stop blaming myself and really start owning just my stuff.
Again, I think the forgiveness will happen, if you want it to, with time and not based on whether you two R'd or not. That condition of forgiving if you 2 are together or not seems like it could be a harmful way of thinking about it.
Yes it's perfectly ok to need space. It's perfectly fine to not be ok with her or to not want to be around her. The acting as if in my opinion means you're acting (or better yet actually doing) as if you are moving on with your life without her. You are taking back the power, taking back the control of your own life.
PM - Only one rule left to master, wow that is amazing! You really need to be proud!
Looking inside your window I see that you knuckles are white and you are still going quite fast down the hill in your roller coaster I think letting it out here is a great route until you catch up. Try hard to not make speak from emotion, especially right now, let your emotions, mind, body and everything else catch up. Then give it some more time
Nothing has changed and everything has changed and it is all a confused mess in your head.
Time is what you need to allow yourself right now.
Your in my thoughts.
Allow yourself TIME, and PATIENCE to work through these things.
That's the plan and what I'm doing. I'm just venting and thought processing here.
And hell, the future could very well be with her...
It could be, I just have trouble separating hope with expectations, and don't really want to bring any of that into it. I don't know how to hope for a future with her without feeling the body blows of a rejection filled life as that doesn't occur over time.
Many people have said that to me, the "you never know...I've heard it happen many times" thing. I think they see me in pain and say it to make me feel better. I'd almost rather not even hope at this point. I'd rather just set her to the side and move forward.
Right now, though, it hurts. And I feel like I need some space. It may not be a strategy for winning her back because it shows her I'm bothered by something, but I'd rather heal and move forward and live than to act like something I'm not and not be able to heal.
Thanks mach1. Bottling up feelings is easy/default for me. Maybe that's why I type so much out here. A chance to release all of it anonymously.
-PM
Hey PM, thought I'd stop by. See we have some mutual friends.
Here's the thing. You feel what you feel. There are no "right" or "wrong" feelings.
You do want to feel them, then when you are ready, let them wash over you because if you hold onto them, they weigh you down and sap your energy.
When we are going through all this, we are grieving the end of the relationship as we knew it. And so, you are going to go through the steps of grieving. And they dont happen in order. You go through them and then back again before the whole process is finished.
This is tough stuff, PM. But the only way to do it, is through it.
As far as forgiving your wife - the first step in that is forgiving yourself. Telling her what she did to hurt you or expecting her to say she is sorry does not serve you well. It serves no real purpose. Because even if she tells you she is sorry, it does not take away the hurt. The only one who can do that is you.
When you release the anger and hurt by forgiving, it will propel you forward.
And you need to ask yourself a few questions. How does it serve me not to forgive her? Can it hurt or harm any future relationship with her or someone else?
PM, the things that hurt you might remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for your wife.
It doesn't mean that you deny your wife’s responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life. It is a commitment to a process of change.
This is all part of your journey, PM. You will get there when you do. There is nothing wrong with taking space if you need it.
Dbing should be about you becoming who you were meant to be first and foremost, and sometimes it saves relationships.
Do you want to get it off your chest to make you feel better or is it because you're hoping for remorse from her?
Both. I realize (at least) one of them isn't "good", but I'm just being honest.
Sounds like you are taking your W off the pedestal you had her on and seeing the reality. This is a good thing and will help you move on along your path. It helped me stop blaming myself and really start owning just my stuff.
I think so.
But you are right - probably a good thing for me overall.
Again, I think the forgiveness will happen, if you want it to, with time and not based on whether you two R'd or not. That condition of forgiving if you 2 are together or not seems like it could be a harmful way of thinking about it.
Maybe. I'm just trying to honestly evaluate the situation. Forgiveness isn't easy. Forgiveness for something that really hurts? Even harder. Forgiveness for something that really hurts and the person doing the hurting doesn't even acknowledge that they've done any wrong? Probably top of the list hard.
I *think* I was mentally willing to forgive her as long as she - and I'm being sarcastic here as I stop and look back at myself - wised up and came back. Then I got to where I realized that wasn't going to work (maybe 9 months ago), but I pushed it down and away. But it just resurfaced later anyway.
Thanks Spartan. You are making me think.
-PM
Looking inside your window I see that you knuckles are white and you are still going quite fast down the hill in your roller coaster I think letting it out here is a great route until you catch up. Try hard to not make speak from emotion, especially right now, let your emotions, mind, body and everything else catch up. Then give it some more time
Yeah, I'm keeping it all inside around her. I was in top form last night! (More on that later.)
And I'm not much on her roller coaster anymore, but on my own (internally) as I try to figure out how to come out of this the best way. Actually, she's much more on my roller coaster than I am on hers.
Thanks!
-PM
Hey PM, thought I'd stop by. See we have some mutual friends.
Here's the thing. You feel what you feel. There are no "right" or "wrong" feelings.
You do want to feel them, then when you are ready, let them wash over you because if you hold onto them, they weigh you down and sap your energy.
When we are going through all this, we are grieving the end of the relationship as we knew it. And so, you are going to go through the steps of grieving. And they dont happen in order. You go through them and then back again before the whole process is finished.
This is tough stuff, PM. But the only way to do it, is through it.
As far as forgiving your wife - the first step in that is forgiving yourself. Telling her what she did to hurt you or expecting her to say she is sorry does not serve you well. It serves no real purpose. Because even if she tells you she is sorry, it does not take away the hurt. The only one who can do that is you.
When you release the anger and hurt by forgiving, it will propel you forward.
And you need to ask yourself a few questions. How does it serve me not to forgive her? Can it hurt or harm any future relationship with her or someone else?
PM, the things that hurt you might remain a part of your life, but forgiveness can lessen its grip on you and help you focus on other, positive parts of your life. Forgiveness can even lead to feelings of understanding, empathy and compassion for your wife.
It doesn't mean that you deny your wife’s responsibility for hurting you, and it doesn't minimize or justify the wrong. You can forgive the person without excusing the act. Forgiveness brings a kind of peace that helps you go on with life. It is a commitment to a process of change.
This is all part of your journey, PM. You will get there when you do. There is nothing wrong with taking space if you need it.
Dbing should be about you becoming who you were meant to be first and foremost, and sometimes it saves relationships.
Thank you. Very well stated and all of it is great for me to think about.
-PM
You're welcome, PM.
This really is all a process and you are doing wonderfully.
I read something once that resonated with me about forgivesness.
Forgiveness is the letting go of wishing things were different.
Updates/journaling:
Friday was my birthday. I got off of work late and headed to the house. XW made dinner and had some set aside for me. She also made me a cake and the girls all had cards they had made for me. I spent most of the evening with D's upstairs watching TV and just hanging out. We laughed and had a really good time.
It was about time to go, so I headed downstairs to briefly chat with XW. I just wanted to tell her thanks for the meal, the cake, and also to ask about when we should tell the girls about the D, but it just didn't seem like the right time to talk about the latter based on my reading of her.
I went to leave and XW gave me a hug goodbye. Which prolonged. She smelled me a few times (which she has been doing more of lately - mentioning the smell of "me"). And she started crying.
We talked for a little bit...maybe 20 or 30 minutes. She is still a mess. Questioning her own decision making. Telling me that she misses me terribly. Wanting to be "okay", but not being able to get there without me. She said she doesn't know how to be okay without me, and mentioned that when I'm not joking around/being playful/being the "normal" me that she is used to, it tears her up pretty bad. She said after our phone call earlier that morning, I was very "okay...okay...okay...have a good day" and that breaks her heart and she cried all morning.
Obviously this reeks of co-dependence. My stance is that she has continually - through her actions - pushed me away. From telling me I had to leave the house, to finding out about OM, to perpetuating the notion that she is dead set on divorce (which took her 18 months to follow through with), to ACTUALLY divorcing me. What she says day to day changes with the wind, but her actions have been clear and I have been respectful of her wishes based upon those actions.
She's upset that "we" don't seem to be okay. I made a joke or two while we were talking and she commented, "See? THIS is what I'm talking about. I miss THIS...YOU."
My take is that she wants to be friends...best buds. Awesome co-parents that have both moved on and are healthy and happy. Only she isn't there, though she suspects I am.
There still aren't clear boundaries, and that's something that I'm working on creating. She wants hugs. And to snuggle for a minute. And will I crack her back? Will I just rub her back for a sec?
And I WANT to do those things. I WANT to help. I WANT to make her feel better, but if her goal is to become independent from me, if she has to "figure out how to be okay on her own," then any help I give isn't really help at all. It helps her in that moment, but it doesn't help her long term goal.
Those types of things aren't how "friends" act, though even when we were friends (pre-dating) we did act this way towards each other. But that isn't how "friends" act. What if one of us starts dating? Snuggling and back rubs would have to stop because that isn't "okay" behavior if one of us is involved with someone else. So this isn't actions within a friendly relationship that can exist perpetually.
On Sunday she was very playful and touchy, but I gave no indication of wanting to push things further. I didn't linger when she initiated contact, I was just very "nothing" to it.
So it appears that she wants to have all the things she wants from our relationship and none of the things she doesn't want. And as I pointed out to jp in his thread, it's a risk I have to take by not responding to her reaching out.
She's sad. She's lonely. She's confused. But she needs to figure herself out, and apparently I am in the way of that, so I have to get out of the way. And I realize that may push her away from me, but if that is what she NEEDS (even if she doesn't think so in the moment), then I have to do that for her.
So it's risky for me to not meet her emotional needs, but I was there for any and all of that for a very long time, and that didn't work to mend my M. It's a risk because it's very possible that she will find someone else to meet those needs, and then my services are no longer required or desired in any way. And of course I don't want that, but I don't see any other way. I have to let her figure herself out, and once she's done that see where I stand. I have to let her go through this, and she has to understand that things aren't going to be the same. She doesn't get to have all she wants and nothing she doesn't - that isn't how ANY relationship works.
So I just have to keep becoming PatientMan. Keep working on the things I am working on and let her find her way. It isn't easy, but I guess it's the way.
-PM
First off, happy belated B-day. Glad you got to spend it with your D's.
Your strategy...I think is exactly what YOU need to be doing. Unless you want to be just friends with her I think you continue working on you and let her figure her stuff out on her own.
My take, if she wants to R and is truly committed to trying she knows how to convey that to you. Right now she seems confused and scared and stepping into that isn't good for you or her.
I think you're doing great and I admire your strength. God knows I've never had to deal with a W that acted like your XW is now and I hope if it happens I can stay as strong for me as you are right now.
I mostly listened and have been really good at STFU-ing. (And I've been practicing validating on my unsuspecting daughters.
)
She kept saying things like how her emotions are all over the place and she's afraid to tell me how she's feeling because she doesn't want to pull me in different directions. How that isn't fair and how *I* need a fair chance at healing too. How *I* should be able to be okay and she shouldn't interfere with that.
So I asked her how that is working out for her (rhetorically, because she was in tears).
I did tell her that I'm doing "fine" and "okay" and even that I am "well." I told her that she didn't need to worry about me...that I am a big boy and can take care of myself, and if she has something that she would like to say, she can tell me. I can handle it.
I did tell her that I wanted to help her, but that she continues to tell me that my help isn't wanted (via her quest for independence), so I don't. I told her it isn't easy for me, but I stand by out of respect for her.
At times I feel like she is looking at me to save her, and if I could just come up with the perfect combination of words to say everything would be magically fixed. But of course that is a bunch of gobble-dee-goop. You're right, Spartan, she'll let me know if she truly wants to R. But that look in her eye...whew.
And you were right about the pedestal. I don't know when exactly it happened, but it isn't nearly so high.
-PM
I meant to add that I asked her to stop trying to predict what I'm going to think if she tells me something (since she is so worried about how I'm going to react to whatever signal she thinks she is sending). I asked that she just be honest with me and herself and and said she is free to tell me if she has something on her mind.
-PM
PM, I just had my birthday a couple of days ago too, so happy birthday to us
You are doing a fantastic job. Your W isn't sure of what she wants and she's doing a lot of reaching out, it takes a ton of discipline to hold back and keep giving time and space, but it's what you've been doing and it is the right thing to do. She's got to work through this on her own.
Also your W is communicating pretty well with you, it's unusual for a WAS to share so much about what's going on internally. I often talk about how the WAS may seem calm, cool and collected on the outside but inside is going through a lot of turmoil over their decision to break up the family, and that is exactly what your W is expressing to you. I think you should pat yourself on the back for this, I think the reason she is so willing to share her inner thoughts is because you've done so well at listening and validating. You've made her feel confortable that she can tell you these things without being judged.
You're doing a great job of keeping the way home paved and smooth, just keep doing what you're doing!
PM - Happy Belated BD to you and mine's later this month!!
My W had begun going through the same type of things your W is doing. I held back where necessary and opened up where I felt I could (mainly on my own personal journey and steps I had taken to process all this). It is so hard to hold, but you have to.
In our recent situation change, I was shocked to find out that the W thought my positive mental attitude was all because we were splitting up and moving on, but that came out in therapy about two weeks before her coming to her change. She had been floored about my happiness and just assumed that and I hadn't stated that I was still wanting back together by keeping mum on the topic and doing my thing.
If R is where y'all are headed, she's going to have to reach that decision (to try) on her own so you have to continue to be patient like you say all the time. You're handling this like a champ and I wish you the best.
Later,
Trying
Thank you for the support and the reinforcement that it appears I am taking the right/best steps. It's difficult, no doubt.
Some more compliments from XW yesterday evening during my class (via text).
W: I appreciate all you're doing.
Me: Sure thing!
Me: But what am I doing?
W: Working hard
W: Busy all the time
W: Being a great dad
W: Being my friend
W: Being helpful
W: With me and all my Shiz
Me: You're welcome, but think nothing of it.
W: I think lots of it
I'm not reading into it, just noting. I mean, I CAN try and read into it, but I don't think it's productive.
-PM
Good stuff....let her think lots of it and let her think about it all the time while you are enjoying your girls and GAL. Don't think too much into it and continue to improve yourself.
Me: You're welcome, but think nothing of it.
What she said is a BIG deal! Don't make light of it! "W, I really appreciate your comments, it's taken a lot of hard work to get to this point and it's good to hear you acknowledge it!"
You're right not to read anything into it though. Celebrate it internally as a nice baby step and keep DB'ing externally
Me: You're welcome, but think nothing of it.
What she said is a BIG deal! Don't make light of it! "W, I really appreciate your comments, it's taken a lot of hard work to get to this point and it's good to hear you acknowledge it!"
I wasn't so much making light of it...more intimating that it's just
normal behavior for me. All that stuff? THAT'S ME! And "ME" isn't going to stop because we're D'd. Why? Because that's ME! Not some hidden me with an agenda.
But you're probably right. I should have said I appreciated her noticing. Thanks for the advice and it has been stored in my memory bank.
I'm learning as I go.
-PM
I mostly listened and have been really good at STFU-ing. (And I've been practicing validating on my unsuspecting daughters.
)
I started doing the same without even realizing it! My D9 seems to like it. She is a gentle soul.
I continue to read your sitch for inspiration, especially when it comes to patience. Thanks for stopping by my sitch as well.
Thanks ALF.
Weird emotions lately. General confusion, but sticking with my plan.
Met an old friend for lunch today. It was nice to finally catch up with him. He seemed very much FOR me moving back into the family's old place in the old neighborhood. He also seemed quite perplexed at the dynamic of the relationship between me and XW (seems to be the norm for people I explain things to).
I have myself about 90% figured out, but there's this missing piece that I haven't decided on yet... what I am supposed to do and allow with regards to my heart. The variables in this decision making process are somewhat contradictory.
I feel like I'm DB'ing well (even though it's post-D). W is definitely on a much lower pedestal. This is a whole new world to me. Confused and lonely, but generally and outwardly doing well.
-PM (on mobile)
And as AnotherStander pointed out, she seems to be opening up to me somewhat (which is great!), yet I feel the need to create some post-D boundaries. Maybe - right now - setting the boundaries is more important than her opening up to me. But I hate to swing and miss on a fastball dead center over the plate.
Any thoughts?
-PM
Hey PM, oh you boys with your baseball jargon. LOL! Though I love sports so I get it.
What kind of boundaries are you talking about specifically?
Might help to hash it out here first.
WOW WOW WOW PM... things are sounding really really good here!! Keep up your work and continue what you have and have not been doing.
I am taking notes !!!
wfm
Hey PM, oh you boys with your baseball jargon. LOL! Though I love sports so I get it.
What kind of boundaries are you talking about specifically?
Might help to hash it out here first.
Boundaries for things, especially physical things like massaging backs and cuddling. Those aren't things that "friends" do (even though WE did those things when we were just "friends").
If I don't set up those boundaries we are leaving ourselves open to being hurt in the future because as soon as someone else comes into the picture for either one of us, those types of things aren't "okay".
I never ask for these types of contact...I've been letting her initiate anything and everything. But I think, since we're divorced, that those types of boundaries should be set.
The flip side is, if she is reaching out and wanting those types of things, should I be discouraging/rejecting those requests?
The flip side to that flip side is what sandi2 preaches - though she hasn't commented to me specifically in a while - that the WAW needs to FEEL and experience what she is losing. The contact I am talking about could very well be cake eating on her part, and when any OM enters the picture, my cake is no longer on the menu. I don't want to be that kind of cake.
-PM
WOW WOW WOW PM... things are sounding really really good here!! Keep up your work and continue what you have and have not been doing.
I am taking notes !!!
wfm
I'm confused. My divorce was finalized last week...
I was in the bathroom yesterday brushing my teeth and getting ready for bed, and for the first time I looked myself right in the eyes (in the mirror) and just out of nowhere said to myself, "she
divorced you. Things were
so bad that she can't/couldn't even work on it...she
DIVORCED YOU."
There are so many examples of couples who have done some of the most unforgivable things and suffered though some of the most terrible treatment, yet were able to reconcile. And I'm divorced. One of the questions the judge asked was, "There is no chance for reconciliation in this marriage?" "No."
I still don't think I've fully accepted the reality of it. I took my ring off for the first time last week - sitting in my car in the parking lot right after the judge declared us legally divorced. That was something I had figured out about myself: that me wearing my ring - regardless of her wearing hers or how she treats our marriage - represented ME and what *I* stood for. And I was wearing my ring until the divorce was final because of what it said
about me. (My ring finger still feels naked, but I haven't put the ring back on even just to maybe feel better...more comfortable.)
I spoke with my couple of confidants lately and am still pondering my decision. A lot of good information from reliable and caring sources. I think I know what I am going to do, it's just a tough row to hoe.
W is still lonely and reaching out for whatever reason. I feel empathy for her and how lost and helpless she feels - I've been there. I respect her decisions, though I don't like them. I know she is struggling with them mightily.
I have the urge to look her dead in the eyes and just very calmly tell her, "I was soooo
in love with you. Sooooo...
ferociously in love with you...there just have never been words that can describe what I felt for you." And then just leave.
Probably a bad idea, but I honestly don't think it would go over that poorly. Even if it does, what's she going to do?
-PM
I was in the bathroom yesterday brushing my teeth and getting ready for bed, and for the first time I looked myself right in the eyes (in the mirror) and just out of nowhere said to myself, "she divorced you. Things were so bad that she can't/couldn't even work on it...she DIVORCED YOU."
There are so many examples of couples who have done some of the most unforgivable things and suffered though some of the most terrible treatment, yet were able to reconcile. And I'm divorced.
-PM
PM, I so understanding of what you said. I feel exactly the same way and I haven't yet reached the divorce point. I hate listening to the couple next door yell and scream at each other daily, hearing about issues in the media that couples go through and even my own SIL whose husband hit her and spat on her. But my W, doesn't want to or can't see any hope in a husband who is prepared to change and has changed for the love of his life.
Well, she had been playful lately, seeing if I would react. Today she put on the full court press making her "advances" on me. I said several times that I needed to go, albeit half heatedly. Things kept progressing and I finally had to get up to exit the area so I went to run some errands.
She apologized numerous times after I left: text, phone call, and in person when I got back. I just kept telling her not to worry about it.
Don't get me wrong. I LIKE to feel wanted and desired and needed, but I just don't know what she's thinking. She started a relationship with another man, (after that was admitted)told me she wanted to work on things, but needed space, convinced me to move out, started things back up with OM, strung me AND the kids along for a year and a half, then divorced me last week.
And she wants to snuggle and cuddle and ML? I don't get it.
But I will not be relationship filler. I am not a backup option. And much as I enjoy the physical contact and intimacy (physical contact being one of my LLs), I have to draw the line and stick to it. I hate to see her reaching out and rejecting her, but I don't see another way.
-PM
Down today. I'm stuck dwelling in my disasters instead of counting my blessings. It's like a scale where everything (reality) is always there, it's just that some days one side of the scale outweighs the other. It's probably just a function of the boundary I set yesterday, but I'm just down.
I'm swamped at work. I have a difficult final exam this evening. The kids and I miss each other terribly. W is having a tough time. I feel tired all the time and am having trouble getting out of bed in the mornings. I'm struggling with a PMA, though I'm doing an okay job of acting "as if" around the family.
-PM
I have the urge to look her dead in the eyes and just very calmly tell her, "I was soooo in love with you. Sooooo...ferociously in love with you...there just have never been words that can describe what I felt for you." And then just leave.
Hi PM.
Thanks so much for posting to my thread, I know I am a difficult one
So what you posted ^^^, yeah I can see that as something I would do/say and I now know the motive behind it.
Do you?
Down today. I'm stuck dwelling in my disasters instead of counting my blessings. It's like a scale where everything (reality) is always there, it's just that some days one side of the scale outweighs the other. It's probably just a function of the boundary I set yesterday, but I'm just down.
I'm swamped at work. I have a difficult final exam this evening. The kids and I miss each other terribly. W is having a tough time. I feel tired all the time and am having trouble getting out of bed in the mornings. I'm struggling with a PMA, though I'm doing an okay job of acting "as if" around the family.
-PM
I feel for you PM. With W reaching out must make it seem like nothing makes sense. I think you are on the right track with setting boundaries up. Wish I could offer more help.
It's like a scale where everything (reality) is always there, it's just that some days one side of the scale outweighs the other.
I know how you feel, PM. Those things are always there (the good and bad) and its just of matter which creeps to the forefront. The good news I assume it will be temporary. We have all have been there before with the tough stuff dominating your thoughts. When you're down, its hard to imagine otherwise.
I'm sure you have things that pull you out of that state. I hope you have the time to do one of those things today. Hang in there, PM. You are certainly one of the stronger, more patient, people in the threads I follow.
I have the urge to look her dead in the eyes and just very calmly tell her, "I was soooo in love with you. Sooooo...ferociously in love with you...there just have never been words that can describe what I felt for you." And then just leave.
Hi PM.
Thanks so much for posting to my thread, I know I am a difficult one
So what you posted ^^^, yeah I can see that as something I would do/say and I now know the motive behind it.
Do you?
I'm not certain. It isn't vindictive or anything petty or ugly.
I feel for you PM. With W reaching out must make it seem like nothing makes sense.
Yes, it's confusing. I'm not going to let it change who I am, it's just confusing and hurts.
-PM
I suppose I need to have a "boundaries" conversation, I just need to think about/take advice on how best to approach it.
So much to think about. This is tough.
I realize that I'm still playing chess sometimes. Trying to play the game so I can win in the end. And if I take away the game, the stress of the talk and the decisions start to melt away.
I HATE losing intimacy and closeness with her. She is my only "friend" and I enjoy spending time with her, for the most part. She and I get along well.
I HATE pushing her away. I FEAR that she'll easily replace me and what I offer.
But none of that should get in the way of doing the right thing, which is setting up some post-D boundaries - for both our sakes. She wants to be friends, and we probably will be one day, but I don't know if we can be right now. She seems to want to have her cake and eat it too, and that isn't healthy for either of us.
I really abhor seeing her in pain and not being able to help. I can't stand to see her in pain and reaching out to me, and I am having trouble trusting that NOT being there for her when she is reaching out is the right approach, but I am putting my trust in this different strategy.
This is hard.
I think we are both attracted to each other, have children together, enjoy each other's company...I just don't think she can open herself up to me again. I'm holding out hope that one day she will. For now, I suppose it's time for boundaries and the uncomfortableness of uncertainty as those boundaries manifest out in our relationship.
It's funny because I don't fear anything. Snakes, spiders, loose dogs, even war when I was a Marine. Yet I am afraid of this. It's even funnier because I KNOW I'll be fine.
Oh well. Push forward. I can't let her have all of me anymore, as much as I want to give it to her. That's the consequence of divorce.
-PM
The depression is setting back in. All the symptoms are there. I need to be proactive to turn the tide and not slip up. I need to force things (personal habits) for a while until my mind clears up.
I wish you all the best.
-PM
PM, the black dog of depression is nipping at my heels, too. If I'm reading this right, it looks like you're taking a sabbatical from this place. Understandable, because I've found it can be a bit much sometimes-- whether it's people who are doing better than you or the overwhelming number of people who have lost something dear to them.
I hope you come back. If you ever want to talk to somebody, we're here. I'm here.
No sabbatical intended, just holding myself accountable. Thank you for the kind words.
-PM
I understand it can be rough. It's okay to feel sorry for yourself every now and then. Just be sure you remember to get back up after you've been knocked down.
PM, glad that you are making progress. Sorry you are feeling a little down recently.
Be the best you can be - for yourself and your Ds.
Thoughts and prayers are with you. Stay strong!
Semper Fi
I always liked this quote from Al Swearingen on Deadwood:
Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f**king beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back.
For the purposes of the purposes of this forum, one should probably omit the last four words, though. Or interpret them differently than the character intended.
PM - I was going to reply to your thread last night but got side tracked and now reading your posts today this is even more pertinent. It's ok and normal to get down about the sitch as long as you can work through it. Since you were a Marine I sure as hell know you are strong enough to feel it then move on. Don't just push the emotions away though, feel them then move on. This is important.
Couple questions for you:
What are YOU doing for YOU right now?
What GAL activities are you planning this weekend?
Last night I was going to point out that your last several pages have been a lot about your W, what she's doing, how she's behaving, and the impacts it's having on you. I understand wanting to talk about our S's but it's time to start talking about YOU again. Seems she has a lot of control over you and how you are feeling. Time to take charge of you my friend.
It's funny because I don't fear anything. Snakes, spiders, loose dogs, even war when I was a Marine. Yet I am afraid of this. It's even funnier because I KNOW I'll be fine.
What exactly are you afraid of? You stated that she may never open up to you again but that isn't the answer.
What are you afraid of in your life if this happens?
What happens if your fear comes true?
Boundaries - They are set up to protect you. Which boundaries are you looking to set up? No touching, no flirting, no leading on, etc... What is the consequence you are willing to enforce (no communication, etc...)?
Couple questions for you:
What are YOU doing for YOU right now?
Not much. The only things "for me" I take care of regularly are nutrition and exercise.
It's buried in one of my older threads, but:
- I work 50-60 hours per week. (A legitimate 50-60 hours per week, not the kind where people count when they leave home and when they get back home.) I'm up at 5 every day.
- I'm getting my MBA at night from a top-10 business school (nationally ranked, inclusive of private universities). Class doesn't even let out until 9:30pm, so on those nights I don't even walk through my front door until after 10. Tack on all the extra work associated with these classes that I have to find time for throughout the week and I'm already spent.
- Every chance I get that I'm not at work or on campus, I go see my girls. I like to lead their nightly devotionals, tuck them into bed, and pray with them individually right before they go to sleep. It's their choice who says the prayer - them or me.
- On weekends I have one date with one of my daughters. It rotates between the four of them, but I get one every week. There are countless benefits to this, but a few major ones are the one-on-one time, the consistent example that I care about each one of them individually, and setting an example of how a date is supposed to treat them (for later on when they're 30 and I allow them to date).
- XW works on Saturday and Sunday mornings, so the D's and I spend time together then. We go to the park, the pool, church, we go through their weekly chores, they have special educational assignments from Dad, etc.
- I usually take the kids one weekend night as well. I want them to feel comfortable at my place and also give XW a rest. Yes, she "chose" to essentially be a single mom, but it's tough and I'm empathetic to that. Once I get a bigger place this will be much easier on my end anyway.
I've tried and tried to reach out to old friends, but it's been hard. Most are busy doing what I wish I was doing: spending time at home with their wife and kids. I've found that I can't count on some "friends" (so I dropped them), and others are just generally busy as well. But I've certainly made the effort. Perhaps moving back into the old neighborhood will help in this effort.
Also helping in this effort will be completing my MBA in December, freeing up TIME for me.
I'm sure someone can find some shred of me making excuses, but for the most part, I'm pretty busy with an extremely demanding schedule. So GAL for me hasn't been very plausible since BD.
It's funny. I think of how incredible the relationship between me and XW was and I honestly think it was responsible for at least several marriages that may or may not have happened otherwise. People were jealous of what we had, saw that "it" was possible, and tried to recreate it for themselves.
What GAL activities are you planning this weekend?
Nothing.
Saturday I'm going to drive the kids an hour away to meet up with my sister who is traveling through on her way to California. I have my date with D9. We have church on Sunday. We'll probably hit up the pool.
This may not be healthy, but honestly I want to see my girls as much as possible, and I feel guilty if I have free time and am not there spending it with them. If you want to dig deeper, my parents didn't spend a lot of time with me, and I want to be the dad that showed them how to live life, that gave them memories, and was always there for them.
Upcoming events:
- I'm taking the 4 D's to the beach next Monday through Wednesday. This will be a bit of a challenge with 4 girls under 12 at the ocean and no other adult to help, but we'll manage and I'll make sure we all have a good time.
- The following Saturday, I'm taking all the D's to my parents out of state and dropping them off for a week. I'm not sure if I'll see XW during this week - I haven't given it any thought and we haven't discussed it.
Last night I was going to point out that your last several pages have been a lot about your W, what she's doing, how she's behaving, and the impacts it's having on you. I understand wanting to talk about our S's but it's time to start talking about YOU again. Seems she has a lot of control over you and how you are feeling. Time to take charge of you my friend.
You are probably right. I see her in pain and it hurts me. I think about what she's done and it hurts me. Right now I'm hurting a lot. I'm lonely and busy and I miss my wife and my best friend, so I've probably been focusing too much on her and slipping back into "I wish things were..." mode.
It's difficult to see her in pain and feel like she's reaching out to me for help,
and to not do anything. She still cries a lot. BUT, I am extremely unemotional around her. I listen and validate and comfort, but my emotions are turned off. I welcome her emotions and am guarded with my own.
I do feel I can easily be replaced from an emotional needs perspective (insecurity).
What exactly are you afraid of? You stated that she may never open up to you again but that isn't the answer.
I'm not so sure. I'm afraid I'll never get her back, and the crazy part is I'm so upset with her it would be difficult for me to accept her back. But I would go through the work to do it.
What are you afraid of in your life if this happens?
What happens if your fear comes true?
A lifetime full of regret.
Boundaries - They are set up to protect you. Which boundaries are you looking to set up? No touching, no flirting, no leading on, etc... What is the consequence you are willing to enforce (no communication, etc...)?
I feel like I should set up boundaries that protect both of us. Like I said before, back rubs, cuddling, ML...those types of things would have to stop if one of us were to get involved with another person. So both of us miss and are seeking intimacy with someone who we love and are attracted to, but are setting ourselves up for pain and disappointment if and when someone else comes into the picture.
I DO feel like she's cake eating. The following isn't a fair assessment, but to summarize the last 18 months:
- She told me I had to move out because my problems were too bad and she was done.
- OM was discovered.
- I was told she wanted to work on things with me, but she still needed space and time to process things.
- I moved out.
- She begins contact with OM again.
- I explicitly set the terms of our marriage.
- She breaks those terms, though she doesn't know that *I* know this.
- She strung me and the kids along until she felt she could handle herself financially.
- She divorced me.
That doesn't paint her in a very good light, I don't think it represents her as a person, and there's a LOT more to it than that (of course), but that's what transpired.
But here's the quagmire. If she's testing things out. If she's flirting and wanting contact for the REAL THING, then those boundaries get in the way. So maybe I don't WANT to set boundaries because I'm afraid it'll send the message that her advances aren't wanted, which isn't true if they are REAL.
But I need to do what's right, not make decisions based upon unrealistic possibilities that may be detrimental and hurtful.
-PM
I'm sitting here, at my desk, and I realize that it's been 18 months and this still consumes my every undistracted thought.
Whew. This is tiring.
Giving up and moving on as if there is no chance whatsoever seems easier, but I don't know if I can live with myself if I do that. So I choose this.
And I'm tired.
***
This just in. I have a couple of confidants. One of them just wrote me this regarding boundaries (she has no knowledge of DB'ing):
First we have to establish a reasonable goal. So what is the goal here? I'd say something like trying to establish autonomy of some sort. She needs to feel like she's doing things herself and is on her own. You need to be able to move on with your life without always wondering what she's up to, who she's with and if she's ok. You both need to establish friends aside from each other, even if you were still together. When you see each other every night, that doesn't facilitate either of you getting together with any other friend or establishing any kind of autonomy. That's something to look at.
You also have physical boundary issues. She's pushing way beyond what is appropriate and because you still love and want her, one moment of not being in control could cause a whole slew of grief. You need to protect you and you'll be protecting her by putting up physical boundaries.
I'd say texting and phone conversations should be discussed too. No photos back and forth. If one of you takes some photos of the kids, that's fine. Send it by email once a week or something. Maybe text at one point in the day only if it's related to coordinating kids within short period of time. Otherwise maybe communicate once a day if that (maybe every other day). But definitely not throughout the day and nothing [personal like she has been sending you].
I'm not saying any of these need to last forever. But right now the relationship you do have with her is sticky. There's clinging attachment making everything confusing. I would suggest that you set some pretty firm boundaries, over and above what you would think you would like to maintain for the long-term and do that for a couple of months. At least until some of the emotion calms down. Then you can sit down again, talk about how those two months went and what might be a more long-term plan. But I think the boundaries need to start out more severe than it will be later just to get past that stickiness period. Until you are in a new routine and both able to function a little more smoothly.
That certainly
sounds reasonable, but feel free to opine while I go to the restroom and throw up from thinking about that.
-PM
So both of us miss and are seeking intimacy with someone who we love and are attracted to, but are setting ourselves up for pain and disappointment if and when someone else comes into the picture.
I am struggling with boundaries right now also. I know I need them so that I can clear my head and work on me and I have the same fear that setting some that are 180's will backfire. I think after long thought that they do need to be set, with clear communication that they are boundaries in place to allow us to each focus on ourselves and only that, at least that is my thought for me.
That certainly sounds reasonable, but feel free to opine while I go to the restroom and throw up from thinking about that.
You do make me laugh
Thank you for pushing me.
My response to my sister:
So what you’re saying, which I forgot to mention, is that I should emotionally abandon her now, even though that’s what drove her away in the first place? (That’s a tough one – always been my biggest hurdle). Maybe that makes sense because we’re divorced? And/or now that she’s seen the real me again, she’ll figure out what she’s missing, and maybe that’ll be something.
Her reply:
Not abandoning. Right now the relationship you have together is toxic and is not allowing either of you to heal as an individual. She is perpetually holding you near while professing to want to stand on her own. She's confused and needs help. But that help can't be you because it carries with it so much history and emotion that she can't focus or stay on course. Shes spinning in her own head, going no where. Here's where the therapist would be perfect.
You are feeding on her unhealthy need of you. Not good for your growth either. You may both still love each other but you need to detox before you can establish what is truly healthy.
Talking about it with her is how you explain that you're not abandoning her, you are hoping to help her help herself. Maybe meet to talk alone once every couple weeks if you think it would help you both but not at her house. Some neutral place - dinner out or something.
But the habit of you always being present and available, i think, has to be broken to move forward, regardless of whether you stay separate or work things out.
I think I'm afraid to "officially" set boundaries because it will solidify that things will never be the same between us. Right now she is reaching out to me, even though she says she wants independence, and yes, I like that. But no, this isn't sustainable.
SHE DIVORCED ME! WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?!?!?
-PM
SHE DIVORCED ME! WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?!?!?
Difficult ???
Because you are thinking are thinking "us" (the marriage)
And she is thinking "me,me,me"
Boundaries are for you, not you AND her
Is this healthy for YOU ?
PM, what are you doing to get past this ?
What are you doing to rock yourself out of your comfort zone ???
P.S.
Your Sister sounds pretty smart : )
And as if on cue, sandi2 posted what I needed to read (in Crimson's thread) which seems to fit perfectly:
I think that's your main problem in your stitch. You have always been available. Too available! She never had to experience how most women live after D. If she needed anything, you were there. I would get so angry at her, b/c she sounded so spoiled and selfish. She has really had a lot of cake to eat!
I know you have made tremendous changes in yourself. I believe everyone here admires you in those great accomplishments. I am certainly among them. However, I will admit that there have been many times that I wanted to reach through the computer and shake you... smile Why? B/c you have been too good to her! It doesn't work on most WAW's that left for the reasons she gave you. What did she lose due to the D? Besides the obvious comforts of life you had given her, what else? She sure didn't lose you. Ever! She had you around, and she called the shots and made sure you knew not to press your luck. She wanted you for a best friend. At what point did it change to lovers?
Crimson PM, you're a nice guy. I don't know how you may have been in the past, but you are a very nice man, now. You have been extremely available and "giving" to your XW, trying so hard to prove your changes. But in MHO, all that's left is for you to do what Bond said. She will not pursue you if you're always there at her beck & call. When you did not initiate contact with her when she went to visit family, didn't she break down to contact you? If she saw you passing her up for a better life (and the possibility of meeting a better wife), she would start to realize just how much she really wants you in her life. But she has to see that she wants you more than just a best friend who will do everything with her and son. She has to see you having a life and being happy without her. She has to see you taking son and not including her in those parent-child activities, even if she should ask in the beginning. The two of you continued as a "family" after the D, but when she didn't want you to be with her & son....she had no problem telling you! She had the best of both worlds. I seriously saw no difference after the D was final and she continued to play her games and treat you so badly. You were still available to her! That is one of the first things MWD tells the LBS....is not to be so available.....and that's before a D, so I would think it would go double after a D. Your XW is wanting that second baby, still, and she needs to realize that she can't have both....the family togetherness and a divorce. That's exactly what she has wanted and has had ever since she left you in the beginning. That's what she wants by having this second baby. She has you and the kids but she doesn't have to play the role of wife.
You can't stand to think about other men dating your XW, but don't you know that if it were turned around and knew you were dating other women that she would feel the same about you? If she didn't, then you don't need to hang on anyway. But the biggest change in her will come if she believes you are dumping her. As long as it was her dumping you, it was fine. But just you watch what happens if she sees the new Crimson PM dumping her.
Buck up, PM! Sweet Jeebus! I was vasectomized, not neutered!
-PM
Your sister has some good advice and I really hope you can figure out a way to make that work for you.
I understand being super busy (maybe not as much as you have going on
) and old friends being busy with their own lives but I still think it's important to do something new. Do something where you'll meet new people.
The following Saturday, I'm taking all the D's to my parents out of state and dropping them off for a week. I'm not sure if I'll see XW during this week - I haven't given it any thought and we haven't discussed it.
Why would you need to see her? Any free time that week should be all about YOU since kids are gone.
I think I'm afraid to "officially" set boundaries because it will solidify that things will never be the same between us. Right now she is reaching out to me, even though she says she wants independence, and yes, I like that. But no, this isn't sustainable.
Sigh...things will NEVER be the same between the two of you no matter how much you want them to be. You are different, she is different, this process and the steps to get here have changed you guys for ever. Do you really even want them to be? You guys ended up here for various reasons.
I understand how bad you want to go back to "normal" with a good M and happy family because I've felt it. Fact is that right now that's not where you (or many of us) are and I feel the stress of you spinning trying to hold on to that dream. What would happen if rather then staying scared and stuck you started getting excited about your new life. Take it slow (I went a little overboard for a couple weeks with the excitement). It doesn't mean it will always be this way and it doesn't make the pain completely go away but maybe you'll start feeling like you're in control of your life and not waiting for something or someone...
But I need to do what's right, not make decisions based upon unrealistic possibilities that may be detrimental and hurtful.
Your words...
SHE DIVORCED ME! WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT?!?!?
Because it $ucks. Just ask yourself are you making it more difficult on yourself then it needs to be. I just don't want you standing in your own way...
Is this healthy for YOU ?
This set up, where I'm essentially relationship filler? I think the correct answer is "no", but I enjoy the friendship and her in general. There is one nugget of merit to it, but most would probably say I am digging really deep to find it.
PM, what are you doing to get past this ?
Other than whining like big baby on an anonymous message board, not much. I've continued to be emotionless around her. I've let her cry on me and been there for her - even after D (now that I think about it, this includes the night of my birthday and the night of Father's Day). And I can see the good in that (the D didn't change me, I'm still the caring man I was before), but I can also see the bad (the D didn't change me, I'm still here).
What are you doing to rock yourself out of your comfort zone ???
This weekend: boundary talk.
P.S.
Your Sister sounds pretty smart : )
I think so too. I felt she was holding back to spare my feelings, but I told her that wasn't best for me. (I still think she's holding back a little.) Just for pointless reference, she is 1 of my 4 confidants (my mother, father, her, and one friend). Outside of this MB, that's my brain-trust, and as unreliant on others as I like to be, they have really been invaluable, which came as a welcome surprise. And now that I think about it, 3 of the 4 have gone through divorce.
Thanks Mach1.
-PM
Other than whining like big baby on an anonymous message board, not much.
This made me laugh.
Good luck finding your way through this, PM. Sounds like you know what you need to do, but I can understand how hard it is to actually do it.
Your sister has some good advice and I really hope you can figure out a way to make that work for you.
I understand being super busy (maybe not as much as you have going on
) and old friends being busy with their own lives but I still think it's important to do something new. Do something where you'll meet new people.
I know you are right. I will try (and try even harder after I graduate). I can list off a bunch of reasons/excuses, but I don't think anybody wants to read that. Meeting new people doesn't come easy for me, so that can be a self improvement project for me.
]Why would you need to see her? Any free time that week should be all about YOU since kids are gone.
Since this was scheduled it has come to mind several times. My thoughts have been to initiate no (zero) encounters with XW, but I'm not sure how to handle the potential, "Want to do something/come over and hang out?" question that could very well pop up.
Though after the boundaries talk this weekend, maybe there's less of a chance of this occurring. Like Crimson explained, I guess I'm just scared of creating distance, which in my case probably stems from insecurity.
Sigh...things will NEVER be the same between the two of you no matter how much you want them to be. You are different, she is different, this process and the steps to get here have changed you guys for ever. Do you really even want them to be? You guys ended up here for various reasons.
I understand how bad you want to go back to "normal" with a good M and happy family because I've felt it. Fact is that right now that's not where you (or many of us) are and I feel the stress of you spinning trying to hold on to that dream. What would happen if rather then staying scared and stuck you started getting excited about your new life. Take it slow (I went a little overboard for a couple weeks with the excitement). It doesn't mean it will always be this way and it doesn't make the pain completely go away but maybe you'll start feeling like you're in control of your life and not waiting for something or someone...
You're right again. I guess I don't know what to do with myself. I feel like a family man with no family.
Just ask yourself are you making it more difficult on yourself then it needs to be. I just don't want you standing in your own way...
Me either. There are times, like this morning, when the feelings of "hope + despair" > "my need and desire to healthfully progress". I just WANT it
so badly sometimes that I blind myself to my reality.
But you all keep me in check. So does my sister. And that's good and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.
-PM
Hiya, PM. Thought I'd say hi and make some comments, if I may.
Ok, so I'm thinking that if your xw tells you she wants to be on her own, that you need to let her be. You are divorced. This is what she wanted. She needs to live that.
And as a girl, I will tell you that you always being there has the potential to keep you in the friend zone, ya know?
You have to do what is best for you. And I think that this is keeping you stuck.
It doesnt mean that you cant be friendly. It just means that you are letting her live the life she chose and that you are moving forward in yours.
If in the future, there is a mutual decision to move towards each other, than, that is something to deal with at that time.
But I'm not sure how to handle the potential, "Want to do something/come over and hang out?" question that could very well pop up.
Um, how about, sorry, sounds great, but, maybe another time, I've got some plans. And make some:)[/quote]
I guess I'm just scared of creating distance, which in my case probably stems from insecurity.
I think you might be right. Sounds like something you need to work on, right?
No one knows what the future holds, PM. But for right now, your focus needs to be on you and your daughters.
I understand you dont have a lot of time. But you are going to have some soon. And you know, it doesnt have to be anything huge that you do for yourself, PM. Your life cant be just work, school and your children. You have a right to have something just for you.
Hiya, PM. Thought I'd say hi and make some comments, if I may.
Thanks.
Ok, so I'm thinking that if your xw tells you she wants to be on her own, that you need to let her be. You are divorced. This is what she wanted. She needs to live that.
I agree. She is sending me mixed messages by divorcing me yet still reaching out to me for support. Why is she reaching out to me?
I think she is lonely. (She doesn't really have any local friends or a support group or a therapist.)
I think I make her comfortable and secure.
I think she still has feelings for me.
BUT, and this is what I have to keep hammering into my own head, SHE DIVORCED ME, so she has to live with the consequences of that. DIVORCING ME means she doesn't want that support that a husband would give...that I *want* to give.
I think her response to this would be that she is just looking for support from a friend, which is what she says she wants to be. And if she needs a friend, it kills me to have to say I can't even be that, but I guess it's just one of those "it is what it is" situations. Maybe we can be friends, but I don't think right now...at least not in the way she is dictating it.
I think you and sandi2 and everyone else who has said it is right. As hard as it is to do, I have to let her live with the consequences of divorcing me, which means I won't be there for support.
Of course, this means she'll go looking for support elsewhere, and I hate that too, but I guess that's the part that *I* have to live with.
I guess it's just me fooling myself. I see her reaching out and I perceive it as some shred of hope, so I cling to it. Really, she just needs support to help her through this tough time. And I guess that can't be me.
Why is it so difficult for me to cut off the person that has treated me this way? This is so irrational!
*I* would be the one to do all the work to help her through all of this, and once she's back up on her feet she's going to be looking elsewhere for a mate (based on the presumption of divorce). Why should I do all the work and let someone else reap all the benefits?
Other than I love her and I'm a sucker, of course.
And as a girl, I will tell you that you always being there has the potential to keep you in the friend zone, ya know?
Good point, though it should be noted that's how most of her relationships have started. But to carry over from what I said above, we can be friends one day, but it will just take some time.
You have to do what is best for you. And I think that this is keeping you stuck.
Yeah. I guess I just don't know how to let go.
It doesn't mean that you cant be friendly. It just means that you are letting her live the life she chose and that you are moving forward in yours.
That's the message I need to convey/reenforce. I just need to figure out how to word it so I don't sound like a jerk.
But I'm not sure how to handle the potential, "Want to do something/come over and hang out?" question that could very well pop up.
Um, how about, sorry, sounds great, but, maybe another time, I've got some plans. And make some:)[/
I really need/do better with a set of rules or a list to go by my mind gets spinning so easily. For however long a time period, should I just be unavailable? E.g. For the next two months, no hanging out with XW?
I understand you dont have a lot of time. But you are going to have some soon. And you know, it doesnt have to be anything huge that you do for yourself, PM. Your life cant be just work, school and your children. You have a right to have something just for you.[/color]
You're right, and any response I have is just whining so I'll spare the bandwidth.
Thank you for your thoughts.
-PM
I need to figure out how to structure what I need to say this weekend - about boundaries and about me and XW going forward. If I'm left without some key points in my mind (both Do's and Don'ts), my words could wander and I could say something I don't want to.
Can you all help with some ideas? How to frame what I need to say?
-PM
I'm so tired of this cr@p. It's 100% effort 100% of the time and I just get to a point where I'm fed up with it. I feel like I'm unraveling today. I'm not taking care of what I need to take care of and I don't seem to care. And I know I'll regret this later, so I'm stuck...always stuck. Whether I'm stuck going 100% or stuck because I feel guilty I slipped up and didn't go 100%. It's either 100% or circling the toilet bowl of depression if I don't go 100%.
I need to keep my schedule to stay on track and hold myself accountable. I just really REALLY don't want to. So I've either gotta force myself to do something I don't want to do, or regret it later.
Unraveling.
What I'm doing isn't working. In any sense of any positive goal. Am I being impatient, or do I need to change?
I want to tell XW to go have a fun life. Peace out. I hope you find happiness, I really do, but you will never find someone who loves you and our children like I do. But you want to divorce me? BYE!
But that isn't very nice. And it certainly doesn't keep the road paved home smooth.
I think I'm obsessed with keeping the road paved home smooth...TOO smooth. I use it to justify unproductive behavior.
I also think I'm trying to control things so that she has limited opportunities to seek out other men.
Because *I* want her, for me. And I don't like who I am, especially without her, so I put up with her cr@p - just for the illusory chance that things will get fixed one day.
I don't know how to let go. I don't know how to move forward and past her. Maybe I can't the way I'm set up right now and I just keep running into a brick wall I've created for myself.
I really don't care what XW is doing right now. I just know that I'm hurting and I'm tired of it. And I've worked so hard, and tried so hard, and prayed, and all the things I'm supposed to do...and it's getting me nowhere. But no, I'm not sitting here giving one effing iota what she is doing or thinking right now.
I don't know why this woman has this spell over me - still, after all of this. I don't know if she's manipulating me or is just truly lost and looking to me for guidance. Should I step up and lead, or get out of the way completely?
I know my family - the family I created - is gone.
I just want to tell her to leave me alone. But that's one of those things that I'll end up regretting, so I'm stuck. Perpetually stuck.
And I'm tired. Unraveling towards broken.
-PM
More thieving from Crimson's thread:
2thepoint:
"Argh! Crimson! Do you not get it? I know you do but your words reflect otherwise.
Let me quote for you an important part of Sandi's last post to you:
Something I believe all WAW’s have to experience (and MWD agrees) is that they have to suffer some type of loss due to their decision to walk away from the M. Even if she never physically leaves the home, she needs to experience and take responsibility of whatever it is she has lost. It could be her reputation, or a relationship with her children, or her H moving on, or a number of things. But it needs to be severe enough that it works much like the bomb did to you. That is why the LBH is so motivated to work on the M...b/c it is a wake-up call, while the WAW has no motivation to work at all.
The fact that she attempted was progress made in the right direction. But if she doesn't get that wake-up call, you may be doing this same thing for a long time...or until you just crash & burn and can’t do it any longer.
You have to let her go. Completely! Cut off all but the most critical contact. Move on with your life. Let her feel the pain of her decisions and yours.
Do you remember Bustorama's post about what eventually triggered his WAW's return? He told his W very directly, to stop all contact unless it was an emergency related to the kids. If she had an emergency and it didn't affect the kids, he didn't want to hear about it. When kid exchanges occurred, he never went into the house. In fact he made a point of picking up and dropping the kids off at school so he did not have to have any interaction whatsoever with his W. He stopped doing any type of family activities with her. He basically cut her completely out of his life and he moved on. And it was only after he did all that did she finally wake up!
That is what Sandi is saying to you here. Let her go. It is your only hope to open her heart.
She has to feel the loss, completely and finally.Can you do it?"
So I'm trying to figure out how to approach the "boundaries" talk this weekend, and you probably wouldn't believe it, but I got nothing. I can't figure out what I want to say and how I want to say it. I've got so much coming from so many different places...I'm speechless.
Any help?
-PM
I wish I could help, PM. I don't have the experience to give you any advice. Just stopping in to see how things are going. You've accomplished some pretty great things throughout your sitch. You're strong, you'll get through this. The only person stopping you, is you.
PM- I can really feel your pain and frustration with your XW and yourself. Sometimes, I want to give up and move on as well. I usually have the tendency to keep it all in and it eats me up from the inside. That's when the angry, resentful, confrontational Bel comes out like I am seeing on your last two posts. I've also found it these emotions were triggered not only W's actions but of my expectations as well. I honestly don't really know what the solution is but I know what we are doing here in learning to work through these feelings is the right way to become a happier person at the end. I do believe you are on the right path and whatever direction you choose to go, I am sure your self-reflection and improvements will carry with you for life. Keep your head up PM!
PM- Not that I have much experience in setting up boundaries but maybe if you list some of the ones that you are thinking off, the folks here can comment on it. Or are you asking people here to give your boundary ideas? Which I don’t think is what you are saying.
PM - I feel for you. I am at a very similar place as far as being frustrated and lost.
I know I need serious work on me and that I need to do it, not talk about it.
I know I need to let go of my rope and do my work.
I know...
I feel like if I let go, I will loose her. I can't keep going on like I am, yet I do.
To really find our way, to really fix ourselves we have to break the pattern, so that we can allow change.
Will our W forget us? No. Will they move on? That is the unknown, the fear that cripples us. I am starting to see it as an addiction for me. I mean how messed up is it that we can't can't live our life for us? Don't get me wrong PM, I am talking about me, maybe you too idk.
Boundaries. Those are difficult.
I am working with my therapist to create some that I need and how to work them so that they do not sound controlling or like ultimatums.
Dig Deep, you are just on a down part of the roller coaster. You have gone through a huge change and are bound to have extreme emotions.
So I'm trying to figure out how to approach the "boundaries" talk this weekend, and you probably wouldn't believe it, but I got nothing. I can't figure out what I want to say and how I want to say it. I've got so much coming from so many different places...I'm speechless.
Any help?
-PM
Think about , very specifically, what you want boundaries on.
List them out and read them (aloud) to yourself. Sometimes reading them aloud will give you a new perspective on them. If they sound funny ? Then find out why they do, cause they might not be a boundary that you need to relay to her....
Make sure, 100%, that you boundaries are NOT for you to "punish" her in any way...
Watch how you deliver them to her. Make sure that you word them without coming across as controlling to her....
Closely examine the words "you", and "I" . Anytime one uses those words, there is a strong chance of using guilt, or blame.
"Always" and "Never" are words that make us Hypocrites....try to stay away from them as well.
Make sure that YOU feel good about saying them, and they are only to protect your emotional being, or physical in some cases.
Make sure that you are willing to die on that hill. I.E. = it is worth it to even state them.
Do NOT overstate them. Say what you want ONCE, and rest on that. Don't explain yourself, you have your reasons, just like she has hers.
Then you need to back away, and live with those boundaries, and let her live with them. They will cause her to spin a little, but that isn't your problem now.
Use tact, not anger. Tact was described to me as telling someone to go to hell, and they look forward to the trip.
Be the man that you want to be, regardless what happens. You are setting a boundary, not to induce a reaction, but regardless the reaction.
A general thought, if I may....
Wife...
I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with so much over my head. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me.
PM- Not that I have much experience in setting up boundaries but maybe if you list some of the ones that you are thinking off, the folks here can comment on it. Or are you asking people here to give your boundary ideas? Which I don’t think is what you are saying.
Part of it goes back to us and just touching in general. Back rubs, hugs, cuddling...those aren't things that "friends" do, but that we have always done (even when we were friends before we dated). It makes sense that those types of things should stop for the sole reason that we are divorced, but there is also the time in the future when one of us is involved with someone else and those types of things would have to stop then, creating an awkward/hurtful situation at that time.
And just to be clear, I never initiate contact. I haven't in a long time.
I think we should stop hanging out together. She has said over and over, through her words and her actions, that she needs her independence...to be "okay" on her own. BUT, she still reaches out to me. So she's not really handling her business and healing as she SAYS she wants to.
And I'm addicted to her, so I respond to her reaching out to me, so I'm not healing either in a sense of being able to move forward without her.
So space seems to solve each of our problems in that area.
I have been so focused on her for so long that I don't know what I "need" to do to heal. If someone were to ask me that, I would still answer "I want my wife and my family back."
I realize that isn't an answer that shows I've done any growing, but it's the truth. I just can't figure out how to let go.
So boundaries as in physical contact, but also time together. As my sister suggested, maybe make it pretty strict for the first month or two and then see where we both sit.
Let me be clear: I don't want to be friends. But I seem to be stuck in a place where my choices are:
1) Say goodbye and feel like I lose her forever
2) Keep doing what hasn't been working, but at least keeps her close enough to feed my addiction
Really, any help is appreciated. Specific or just thought provoking. I realize #2 isn't the right choice.
-PM
Think about , very specifically, what you want boundaries on.
List them out and read them (aloud) to yourself. Sometimes reading them aloud will give you a new perspective on them. If they sound funny ? Then find out why they do, cause they might not be a boundary that you need to relay to her....
Make sure, 100%, that you boundaries are NOT for you to "punish" her in any way...
Watch how you deliver them to her. Make sure that you word them without coming across as controlling to her....
Closely examine the words "you", and "I" . Anytime one uses those words, there is a strong chance of using guilt, or blame.
"Always" and "Never" are words that make us Hypocrites....try to stay away from them as well.
Make sure that YOU feel good about saying them, and they are only to protect your emotional being, or physical in some cases.
Make sure that you are willing to die on that hill. I.E. = it is worth it to even state them.
Do NOT overstate them. Say what you want ONCE, and rest on that. Don't explain yourself, you have your reasons, just like she has hers.
Then you need to back away, and live with those boundaries, and let her live with them. They will cause her to spin a little, but that isn't your problem now.
Use tact, not anger. Tact was described to me as telling someone to go to hell, and they look forward to the trip.
Be the man that you want to be, regardless what happens. You are setting a boundary, not to induce a reaction, but regardless the reaction.
Thank you.
A general thought, if I may....
Wife...
I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with so much over my head. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me.
Simple. Succinct. Honest. Direct.
I like it. I hate it.
Did you intentionally leave it open ended, from a time perspective?
-PM
A general thought, if I may....
Wife...
I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with so much over my head. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me.
Simple. Succinct. Honest. Direct.
I like it. I hate it.
Did you intentionally leave it open ended, from a time perspective?
Open ended ?
Yes...
Would you rather a nice, long, clingy goodbye ????
Like I said, don't overstate your boundary, say exactly what you NEED to say, and walk away.
Open ended ?
Yes...
Would you rather a nice, long, clingy goodbye ????
Like I said, don't overstate your boundary, say exactly what you NEED to say, and walk away.
Good point. In fact, I was just about to type "consider it done, then", but one thing popped in my head: the kids.
Currently I come over on the evenings I don't have class and tuck the girls in. I'd hate to lose that too.
The more I read your suggestion, though, the more I like it. If I add something about the kids:
"XW,
I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with so much over my head. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children or the finances, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me.
I very much enjoy spending time with the children on evenings I do not have school and when you work on the weekends, and would like to continue to do so. Let me know if this becomes an issue for you."
PM,
I feel for you. This can just seriously blow doing all the heavy lifting without the rewards. You get to grow personally and that is absolutely fantastic, different perspectives, reality checks, etc. But when the heavy lifting doesn't produce results that YOU have created in your head it goes all to pieces.
I get turned topsey-turvey all day long and while I am sooooo grateful my W has discussed us again it makes my own boundaries so blurred I don't know which way is up sometimes. Only thing I'm having to learn is to quickly change what is not working. She'll react negatively and think "maybe this is a sign we're not supposed to be together". She'll sit on those emotions for days even when we've had good conversation / fun together.
Think about Sandi's rule on changing away from things that don't work. You mention your current approach is not working. Can you identify WHAT specifically you are doing that is not working? If you can, tweak it or overhaul it.
I wish you well.
Trying
PM- Not that I have much experience in setting up boundaries but maybe if you list some of the ones that you are thinking off, the folks here can comment on it. Or are you asking people here to give your boundary ideas? Which I don’t think is what you are saying.
Part of it goes back to us and just touching in general. Back rubs, hugs, cuddling...those aren't things that "friends" do, but that we have always done (even when we were friends before we dated). It makes sense that those types of things should stop for the sole reason that we are divorced, but there is also the time in the future when one of us is involved with someone else and those types of things would have to stop then, creating an awkward/hurtful situation at that time.
And just to be clear, I never initiate contact. I haven't in a long time.
I think we should stop hanging out together. She has said over and over, through her words and her actions, that she needs her independence...to be "okay" on her own. BUT, she still reaches out to me. So she's not really handling her business and healing as she SAYS she wants to.
And I'm addicted to her, so I respond to her reaching out to me, so I'm not healing either in a sense of being able to move forward without her.
So space seems to solve each of our problems in that area.
I have been so focused on her for so long that I don't know what I "need" to do to heal. If someone were to ask me that, I would still answer "I want my wife and my family back."
I realize that isn't an answer that shows I've done any growing, but it's the truth. I just can't figure out how to let go.
So boundaries as in physical contact, but also time together. As my sister suggested, maybe make it pretty strict for the first month or two and then see where we both sit.
Let me be clear: I don't want to be friends. But I seem to be stuck in a place where my choices are:
1) Say goodbye and feel like I lose her forever
2) Keep doing what hasn't been working, but at least keeps her close enough to feed my addiction
Really, any help is appreciated. Specific or just thought provoking. I realize #2 isn't the right choice.
-PM
Wow PM, I am turning around to find you as you must be on the same boat as I. Maybe your on the one ahead of me with those who have worked more and found more of themselves.
Makes me wonder if it isn't our boats that are leaking, but if it is being on the water when we need to be on the land.
I very much enjoy spending time with the children on evenings I do not have school and when you work on the weekends, and would like to continue to do so. Let me know if this becomes an issue for you."
The ONLY thing I would caution about this...
Is that it CAN be a potential for her to see this as "cake-eating" from you.
Really take some time to think about this, and what it really means to you. Maybe this could be what your Sister was speaking of, that after time you could ease into things again.
I'm not saying that it is a bad thing, just dance around that very carefully....
YOU are setting boundaries against cake eating, and if SHE sees this as being what you are asking for, it could backfire very quickly.
Her hypocrisy can have zero limits, just make sure you are air tight..
Make sense ???
PM, let me ask you something.
Is holding onto her giving you what you want?
I'm thinking that it isnt.
So, there is the possibility that letting go, can.
Letting go doesnt mean giving up.
I feel that lovingly letting her go is the ultimate act of love.
It is saying that you cherish her enough to want her to be happy, even if that means it isnt with you.
It is telling her that you hear her. You hear that she wants to be independent.
And if in the future, it is meant to be for the two of you to look towards each other, then, you will have become the person you were meant to be and will be able to enter a new relationship with her from a place of strength.
I very much enjoy spending time with the children on evenings I do not have school and when you work on the weekends, and would like to continue to do so. Let me know if this becomes an issue for you."
The ONLY thing I would caution about this...
Is that it CAN be a potential for her to see this as "cake-eating" from you.
Really take some time to think about this, and what it really means to you. Maybe this could be what your Sister was speaking of, that after time you could ease into things again.
I'm not saying that it is a bad thing, just dance around that very carefully....
YOU are setting boundaries against cake eating, and if SHE sees this as being what you are asking for, it could backfire very quickly.
Her hypocrisy can have zero limits, just make sure you are air tight..
Make sense ???
Yes. I see what you mean.
I need to get a bigger place. It's going to be difficult to "walk away" and stick to the terms of the divorce decree when I'm living in a one bedroom apartment and have 4 kids.
We didn't really intend to stick to the decree terms unless things got so bad between us that we HAD to, but if I need to do this then I need to suck it up and make everything happen.
-PM
PM, let me ask you something.
Is holding onto her giving you what you want?
I'm thinking that it isnt.
So, there is the possibility that letting go, can.
Letting go doesn't mean giving up.
I feel that lovingly letting her go is the ultimate act of love.
It is saying that you cherish her enough to want her to be happy, even if that means it isnt with you.
It is telling her that you hear her. You hear that she wants to be independent.
And if in the future, it is meant to be for the two of you to look towards each other, then, you will have become the person you were meant to be and will be able to enter a new relationship with her from a place of strength.
How about this:
"XW,
I hear you when you say that you need your independence and that we both need to be okay on our own. What we've been doing
isn't working to accomplish those goals, so I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with so much over my head. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children or the finances, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me."
Or is that explaining too much in the beginning and I should just go with the original?
How about this:
"XW,
I hear you when you say agree that you we need your independence and that we both need to be okay on our own. What we've been doing isn't working to accomplish those goals for me, so I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with so much over my head. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children or the finances, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me."
Just my thoughts.....
How about this:
"XW,
I hear you when you say agree that you we need your independence and that we both need to be okay on our own. What we've been doing isn't working to accomplish those goals for me, so I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with so much over my head. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children or the finances, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me."
Just my thoughts.....
Thanks
Wow. I went from setting some boundaries to feeling like I'm saying "goodbye" to her forever. I am going to sleep on it, but I think this is best.
What I have been doing is feeding my addiction to her, even if all I'm getting is just scraps at this point. So I don't think I can let her go with her around me. I thought I could, but I guess not. My addiction is too strong.
This is going to be hard, but if I wake up tomorrow and still feel it's the right thing to do, then it's done. Always do the right thing, no matter what.
-PM
I was reading through Crimson's thread last night. Our situations are so similar and the advice he is getting probably translates exactly for me. Last night, as I was catching back up with his comments and those helping him, I just had to shut my laptop and put it down. I couldn't take it.
I don't think I'm living in reality. Somehow I went from a place of strength to a world that is spinning, and reading through the thread I kept thinking, "This is me...this is my situation...this is my reality"...and I don't think I've really come to accept it.
Maybe my mind has been fooling me. Or I've been fooling myself. Or I have allowed myself to be fooled. So I slept on what I read last night and came back and read it again. Things like:
I believe she will use the child as her bait to keep you hooked...
...If you will start doing as the court laid out in the papers, it will start to open her eyes to how much you had been giving her and how hard you had tried. She NEEDS to abide by the D papers and see how the real world is. Not to punish her, but to help her see how unreasonable she has been. And even if that doesn't jump start her into getting her eyes open a little more, the fact that she shoved you away and now (and in the future) sees you having a life without her.....compared to her own empty life. She has had you filling in the gaps and rescuing her whenever she had a bad day, and calling the shots about child visitation...
You have been the one to make personal & lasting improvements......not her. You were the one who did all the giving over to what she wanted.. It was not a two-way street. The painful truth is that it would continue to be like this, as long as you were the one doing all the changing, growing, and giving......and she did none. I believe the only way she will change is to really have to stand without there to prop her up.
That's another thing I think she'll try. Look for her to pull the friendship card. And when you agree, then she will "use" and abuse the hell out of it.
sandi2 is describing my sitch to a "t".
TO A "T". And then:
The only times I have ever seen a D couple be on even friendly terms was after they had truly detached from each other. And then, they did not hang out together, like your xw thinks of "friends" after D.
Hard to read, but I probably need to read it.
And then more.
I believe you are going to see where you have out-grown her...And until she really believe you are moving on.....she will not take that same hard look at herself, an see what others see.
...B/c it is like you approaching a door that has only an inside knob. You can't push it open. The only way is for her to turn the know and open that door from inside...
...But that is why I believe the WAS says it is easier to have new R than to repair the old one. Yes, it is easier on our feelings!
Ugh. What a gut punch of truth.
And then Crimson reaches inside my brain and says:
Sad thing is, I WANT to help. I STILL have this drive to help her, make her life easier - and I have to make a conscience decision to shut off my heart and stick to my guns. I wanted to believe that "being there" for her helps our relationship but it doesn't. It's cake eating.
I struggle to understand how she does not see that the kind of help that she is asking for is the kind of help you get when you are a couple, a partnership, a team. Why is it that she believes she can have all the ease of a two parent home without having to live in one? It just seems so clear that she is missing a partner or the benefits of having one - but not enough to realize we are ALL better off together...
...You are right about the "friends" thing. She's already said in TM "we will be friends forever....." I just don't think I can be there like that right now. If she wants to work on R, that's one thing - but not like this.
I am so addicted to this woman. And I see my situation being played out almost exactly with someone else and it shines the light on my own sitch...and it was just a lot to handle for some reason last night.
In Crimson's thread 25mlc says to "lovingly detach". And the advice I'm getting from all of you who have been kind enough to read through all of my garbage and help me in my own thread is saying I need to step away as well.
Hope is a dangerous thing for me. I think I have always had hope that reconciliation with my wife is a puzzle and if I just dissected it and thought about it enough, if I did and said the right things at the right times, that I could figure out a way to put the puzzle together.
So I have hoped, but I haven't let go. It's time I open my ears, do something different, and let go. I can still hope, but I have to let go.
To my XW's inevitable question: "I thought we could be friends", I guess my answer is, "maybe someday, but not right now."
I'm addicted to this woman. I need to break my addiction and I have fooled myself into thinking I could do it while hanging around her. Really what I was doing was just feeding that addiction. So I think the advice I have been given is best: go cold turkey for a while.
"XW,
I agree that we need our independence and that we need to be okay on our own. What we've been doing isn't working for me, so I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with so much over my head. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children or the finances, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me."
^^^To be delivered. I am very sad.
-PM
It'll be tough but you can do it. What's your plan for dealing with your addiction. This is where people rely on hope too much. You need a plan.
PM - I feel the same about being addicted. I live my life based on how I feel about my W or our sitch at that moment.
It is time for me to make my move and one thing that keeps resonating in my head it what UW has continued to ask me.
Take a leap of faith.
The other thing I would ask you is after you give your W your words do you have your expectations in check?
PM, I know you are sad. I am sorry you are.
The thing is that what you are doing is not working. It just isnt.
So continuing to do the same thing over and over is just going to get you the same results.
Your xw knows how you feel, trust me.
It is time for you to figure out PM. Find out who you are.
So that if you or she look to each other in the future, you can do it from a place of strength.
This is an amazing journey you are on. You get to become the very best you.
And you cant do that when your happiness is dependent on her.
It doesnt mean you have to stop loving her. It doesnt mean there is not hope for the future.
It just means that you get to figure out that happiness doesnt come from another person. It comes from within.
Let her go, PM.
You will be ok. You will get through this.
You will not regret it.
Take a leap of faith.
It'll be tough but you can do it. What's your plan for dealing with your addiction. This is where people rely on hope too much. You need a plan.
My direct plan for her is the cold turkey approach. I am going to limit the amount of contact I have with her to break the dependence/addiction. This means no more hanging around the house, no more hanging out with her, limiting contact with her to kids and family topics that need to be addressed.
What I will focus on are my goals, which I listed a few out that came to mind at that moment when I wrote them in my last thread:
- Move to a larger place for me and the girls.
- Finish up my MBA (Dec).
- GAL (hopefully facilitated by the above bullet point).
- Get promoted.
- Get a larger vehicle.
- Go on one "excursion" a month with the girls (camping, canoeing, amusement park, etc.).
- Continue my one date a week with my D's (one-on-one date that rotates between the 4 of them).
- Make D's feel as special and loved as is humanly possible.
- Be an example for my girls, and for who they should look for in a mate after they grow up.
- Volunteer.
- Practice patience daily.
- Go to church every week.
- Consistently meet my nutritional and exercise goals. (No self sabotaging!)
- Start playing basketball again (herniated disc dependent).
- Connect with old friends (been trying) or make new ones (not easy/enjoyable for me).
- Pray more.
- Trust God more.
- Help others.
- Forgive XW truly and completely.
- Be the best version of me.
I have a small, one bedroom apartment which doesn't lend well to me following through with saying what I need to say today and walking away, so I am going to expedite the process of me moving back to the old house that we still own (well, now I own), and take the financial hit of breaking my lease to make it happen. I will be giving my tenants a 30 day notice to vacate the property, so I'll move back in August.
Space-wise, until then I'm just going to suck it up and make it happen.
So my plan is to go as cold-turkey as I can with her and focus on all these other areas of my life. Do you have any other suggestions?
Thanks labug.
-PM
It is time for me to make my move and one thing that keeps resonating in my head it what UW has continued to ask me.
Take a leap of faith.
I think that's good advice, and it's something different! What you and I have been doing isn't working, so we have to change it up!
The other thing I would ask you is after you give your W your words do you have your expectations in check?
That's something to think about. Thanks. I am expecting a some questions, but it's also possible she goes completely cold on me...for a while. Thanks for the reminder to be prepared for anything.
-PM
PM, I know you are sad. I am sorry you are.
The thing is that what you are doing is not working. It just isnt.
So continuing to do the same thing over and over is just going to get you the same results.
Your xw knows how you feel, trust me.
It is time for you to figure out PM. Find out who you are.
So that if you or she look to each other in the future, you can do it from a place of strength.
This is an amazing journey you are on. You get to become the very best you.
And you cant do that when your happiness is dependent on her.
It doesnt mean you have to stop loving her. It doesnt mean there is not hope for the future.
It just means that you get to figure out that happiness doesnt come from another person. It comes from within.
Let her go, PM.
You will be ok. You will get through this.
You will not regret it.
Take a leap of faith.
I know that you are right. Thank you for the continued support.
This is difficult, but it is the right thing to do. Always do the right thing!
-PM
I feel so blessed that there are so many people who care enough to take the time to help me. I want you to know that I truly appreciate it...you all have no idea. I really don't like to ask for help from anyone, and yet you all give it so freely and with such sincere care. I didn't even expect a response so quickly this morning, but it was like there was a team of you ready to support me as soon as I hit "submit" and it just really means a lot.
Right now, though, I am off to watch Monsters University with a few of my special ladies. See you later!
-PM
PM, I dont like to ask for help either. Something to work on, right?
I was thinking of something else I wanted to tell you.
Even though your children are young, they are always watching you. Taking things in when you or they dont realize it.
You do not want them to see an addictive relationship as that is not healthy.
You are being given a wonderful opportunity to show them how to navigate through life's turmoils. And you want them to see how to do it with strength and courage, honor and dignity.
Enjoy the movie and your precious girls.
You will get there, PM. It's all a process.
PM,
Hope you enjoyed the movie with your daughters. How are you today? Did you send across your message? Have you received a response?
Hope everything is going as well as it can.
Sincerely,
Trying
I am finishing up a trip to the beach with my 4 Ds and will be brief. It would be difficult to imagine the planned Sunday talk with XW going so much differently than I expected. I'll fill in the details later when I have more time, but it didn't happen. The girls and I left first thing Monday morning for the beach, so now I'm going to squeeze it in before I take the girls to my parents out of state on Saturday.
One could say I wussed out, but that wasn't the case. The situation was very "hot stove"-ish. I don't know if she sensed something was up (very possible) and put up some preemptive defense (also possible), but I'll elaborate later.
What I do know is that the depression is back...almost at full steam now. My heart/mind/soul is...crushed right now. I know it's temporary. I know the truths of this situation and what I need to do. I'm just crushed. Bad thoughts. Bad emotions. Bad...everything.
*sigh*
Thanks for the vent.
-PM
It'll be tough but you can do it. What's your plan for dealing with your addiction. This is where people rely on hope too much. You need a plan.
My direct plan for her is the cold turkey approach. I am going to limit the amount of contact I have with her to break the dependence/addiction. This means no more hanging around the house, no more hanging out with her, limiting contact with her to kids and family topics that need to be addressed.
What I will focus on are my goals, which I listed a few out that came to mind at that moment when I wrote them in my last thread:
- Move to a larger place for me and the girls.
- Finish up my MBA (Dec).
- GAL (hopefully facilitated by the above bullet point).
- Get promoted.
- Get a larger vehicle.
- Go on one "excursion" a month with the girls (camping, canoeing, amusement park, etc.).
- Continue my one date a week with my D's (one-on-one date that rotates between the 4 of them).
- Make D's feel as special and loved as is humanly possible.
- Be an example for my girls, and for who they should look for in a mate after they grow up.
- Volunteer.
- Practice patience daily.
- Go to church every week.
- Consistently meet my nutritional and exercise goals. (No self sabotaging!)
- Start playing basketball again (herniated disc dependent).
- Connect with old friends (been trying) or make new ones (not easy/enjoyable for me).
- Pray more.
- Trust God more.
- Help others.
- Forgive XW truly and completely.
- Be the best version of me.
I have a small, one bedroom apartment which doesn't lend well to me following through with saying what I need to say today and walking away, so I am going to expedite the process of me moving back to the old house that we still own (well, now I own), and take the financial hit of breaking my lease to make it happen. I will be giving my tenants a 30 day notice to vacate the property, so I'll move back in August.
Space-wise, until then I'm just going to suck it up and make it happen.
So my plan is to go as cold-turkey as I can with her and focus on all these other areas of my life. Do you have any other suggestions?
Thanks labug.
-PM
Great list of goals, etc but I think you need to state in writing, what you will do when you're alone and vulnerable and want to contact your W. We've all been there. How about an accountability friend you can call who will talk you through the craving.
Another question,why do you need to send XW a message? You don't have to contact her to let her know you're not going to contact her, do you?
Sounds like you had a great time at the beach! Good.
Thoughts on the following with XW?
"In hindsight I realize I battled depression for years. I tried to fill the void in me up with so many things, but by far the most destructive tool I used was alcohol. The point of this letter isn’t to dissect my personal demons, but I was addicted to alcohol and I used it to cope with many things, mainly just to escape myself.
Quitting alcohol was easy. It was nothing.
XW, YOU are the worst thing I’ve ever been addicted to.
I thought I could move on with my life...move forward with my life while having you around, providing you support when you asked for it, being your friend, but I realize now that I’ve just been feeding my addiction all along and not moving on or forward at all.
I WANT a family. I WANT to be IN LOVE. I WANT to be in love WITH YOU. I want to share my life with someone and put that person above everybody else. I WANT that person to be YOU, but if that is something than can never happen then I am just forcing myself to be stuck in a place where I’ll never get what I want, where I’ll never be happy.
You and I have to be either IN or OUT. You have made it very clear that you are OUT. So I have to figure out how to move on, to move forward so that I can kick my addiction of you and be able to be open to someone else who can be open to me. It would not be fair to a new person in my life to maintain the friendship with you at the level we now have.
So, for lack of a better term, I need to detox. I need time and space to detox from you because you are so intoxicating to me.
We keep doing the same thing over and over again and we’re both still in the same spot – at least I know I am. I am still in love with you. I don’t know exactly where you are personally, but I know you are struggling and have been for a while, if not for the entire time frame of the last 18 months that this separation process has been going on.
I agree that we need our independence and that we need to be okay on our own. What we've been doing isn't working for me, so I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with you in my life so much when I am so addicted to you. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children or the finances, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me.
Let me leave you with this. Above all else, I love you and am in love with you. But I have to let go. Know that I am letting go out of that love.
-PM"
Too much? Mach1 coming at me with a 2x4?
-PM
This is one of those letters you wrote to make you feel better with no intention of sending right. If you are thinking about actually sending this...we need to talk
PM, I have one word for you if you are thinking of sending that, "DUCK!"
No.
This is one of those letters you wrote to make you feel better with no intention of sending right. If you are thinking about actually sending this...we need to talk
Let's talk.
PM, I have one word for you if you are thinking of sending that, "DUCK!"
Duck from what?
I'm certainly sensing the trend in responses, but I'm completely missing whatever is obvious to everyone else.
Great list of goals, etc but I think you need to state in writing, what you will do when you're alone and vulnerable and want to contact your W. We've all been there. How about an accountability friend you can call who will talk you through the craving.
I never initiate contact with her unless it's necessary because of the kids. I've gotten really good at no contact from me.
Another question,why do you need to send XW a message? You don't have to contact her to let her know you're not going to contact her, do you?
I want
her to stop contacting
me.
Sounds like you had a great time at the beach! Good.
It was really fun and we all had blast!
I never initiate contact with her unless it's necessary because of the kids. I've gotten really good at no contact from me.
So you're against a plan to help you through difficult times?
No contact from her is going to be difficult, you've not done this before. You don't know how that will affect you, it may be positive, it may be negative. All I'm saying is you need a plan.
How are you going to contact her about the kids and what in your mind constitutes necessary?
If you want her to stop contacting you, stop responding unless it's truly necessary, life/death necessary.
Tell us why you think your letter or message is a good thing.
Allow me to edit it, I think this would work better:
"In hindsight I realize I battled depression for years. I tried to fill the void in me up with so many things, but by far the most destructive tool I used was alcohol. The point of this letter isn’t to dissect my personal demons, but I was addicted to alcohol and I used it to cope with many things, mainly just to escape myself.
Quitting alcohol was easy. It was nothing.
XW, YOU are the worst thing I’ve ever been addicted to.
I thought I could move on with my life...move forward with my life while having you around, providing you support when you asked for it, being your friend, but I realize now that I’ve just been feeding my addiction all along and not moving on or forward at all.
I WANT a family. I WANT to be IN LOVE. I WANT to be in love WITH YOU. I want to share my life with someone and put that person above everybody else. I WANT that person to be YOU, but if that is something than can never happen then I am just forcing myself to be stuck in a place where I’ll never get what I want, where I’ll never be happy.
You and I have to be either IN or OUT. You have made it very clear that you are OUT. So I have to figure out how to move on, to move forward so that I can kick my addiction of you and be able to be open to someone else who can be open to me. It would not be fair to a new person in my life to maintain the friendship with you at the level we now have.
So, for lack of a better term, I need to detox. I need time and space to detox from you because you are so intoxicating to me.
We keep doing the same thing over and over again and we’re both still in the same spot – at least I know I am. I am still in love with you. I don’t know exactly where you are personally, but I know you are struggling and have been for a while, if not for the entire time frame of the last 18 months that this separation process has been going on.
I agree that we need our independence and that we need to be okay on our own. What we've been doing isn't working for me, so I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with you in my life so much when I am so addicted to you. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children or the finances, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me.
Let me leave you with this. Above all else, I love you and am in love with you. But I have to let go. Know that I am letting go out of that love.
There we go. Send THAT message.
I said, "DUCK" because of the 2 x 4's coming your way. I am going to respond to the letter, but, PM, this is pursuing, self serving, and not something you want to send to her. I will tell you that it is not going to have the results you are hoping for. The point of this letter isn’t to dissect my personal demons, but I was addicted to alcohol and I used it to cope with many things, mainly just to escape myself.
But then that is exactly what you go on to do. ^^^Quitting alcohol was
easy. It was
nothing.
Really? Easy and nothing? XW, YOU are the worst thing I’ve ever been addicted to. Um, read that to yourself again. I thought I could move on with my life...move forward with my life while having you around, providing you support when you asked for it, being your friend, but I realize now that I’ve just been feeding my addiction all along and not moving on or forward at all.
And you want to tell her that why^^^?I WANT a family. I WANT to be IN LOVE. I WANT to be in love WITH YOU. I want to share my life with someone and put that person above everybody else. I WANT that person to be YOU, but if that is something than can never happen then I am just forcing myself to be stuck in a place where I’ll never get what I want, where I’ll never be happy.
A lot of I wants, up there, PM.You and I have to be either IN or OUT. You have made it very clear that you are OUT. So I have to figure out how to move on, to move forward so that I can kick my addiction of you and be able to be open to someone else who can be open to me. It would not be fair to a new person in my life to maintain the friendship with you at the level we now have.
Guilt provoking statements, to what end?So, for lack of a better term, I need to detox. I need time and space to detox from you because you are so intoxicating to me.
PM, I dont even know what to say to that. ^^^We keep doing the same thing over and over again and we’re both still in the same spot – at least I know I am. I am still in love with you. I don’t know exactly where you are personally, but I know you are struggling and have been for a while, if not for the entire time frame of the last 18 months that this separation process has been going on.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say she knows you are still in love with her, sweetie. She has heard and seen it loud and clear. I agree that we need our independence and that we need to be okay on our own. What we've been doing isn't working for me, so I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with you in my life so much when I am so addicted to you. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children or the finances, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me.
Thought that ^^^^ was the original plan. What happened?Let me leave you with this. Above all else, I love you and am in love with you. But I have to let go. Know that I am letting go out of that love.
Ok, so you are going to tell her yet again, that you love her. PM, she KNOWS.Trust me on that one. I will tell you her reaction will not be a good one. You are telling her what you want, that it is her fault because she is addictive, that you cant get over her.
No dbing going on there. -PM"
Too much?
YESSSS!!!!!-PM
I never initiate contact with her unless it's necessary because of the kids. I've gotten really good at no contact from me.
So you're against a plan to help you through difficult times?
No contact from her is going to be difficult, you've not done this before. You don't know how that will affect you, it may be positive, it may be negative. All I'm saying is you need a plan.
Good point. I suppose my default person is my sister, but I will definitely give this some thought.
How are you going to contact her about the kids and what in your mind constitutes necessary?
Via text or email, mainly, but phone calls aren't out of the question if needed. "Necessary" means it has to do with the finances or coordinating the children's activities. I do not want her texting me about her clients or her day or the TV show she is watching, as examples.
If you want her to stop contacting you, stop responding unless it's truly necessary, life/death necessary.
Tell us why you think your letter or message is a good thing.
Well, for one it is something different. She still cries every day and I'm still in love with her (and we're 18 months in!), so it explains why I feel this change is necessary.
Also, I
actually feel like I just said "goodbye" to my wife and best friend
forever, so I felt like I owed her more than the succinct version. Now that I've said my what I have to say, I'm going as dark as possible (given the children).
-PM
so you actually sent that?
Allow me to edit it, I think this would work better:
"In hindsight I realize I battled depression for years. I tried to fill the void in me up with so many things, but by far the most destructive tool I used was alcohol. The point of this letter isn’t to dissect my personal demons, but I was addicted to alcohol and I used it to cope with many things, mainly just to escape myself.
Quitting alcohol was easy. It was nothing.
XW, YOU are the worst thing I’ve ever been addicted to.
I thought I could move on with my life...move forward with my life while having you around, providing you support when you asked for it, being your friend, but I realize now that I’ve just been feeding my addiction all along and not moving on or forward at all.
I WANT a family. I WANT to be IN LOVE. I WANT to be in love WITH YOU. I want to share my life with someone and put that person above everybody else. I WANT that person to be YOU, but if that is something than can never happen then I am just forcing myself to be stuck in a place where I’ll never get what I want, where I’ll never be happy.
You and I have to be either IN or OUT. You have made it very clear that you are OUT. So I have to figure out how to move on, to move forward so that I can kick my addiction of you and be able to be open to someone else who can be open to me. It would not be fair to a new person in my life to maintain the friendship with you at the level we now have.
So, for lack of a better term, I need to detox. I need time and space to detox from you because you are so intoxicating to me.
We keep doing the same thing over and over again and we’re both still in the same spot – at least I know I am. I am still in love with you. I don’t know exactly where you are personally, but I know you are struggling and have been for a while, if not for the entire time frame of the last 18 months that this separation process has been going on.
I agree that we need our independence and that we need to be okay on our own. What we've been doing isn't working for me, so I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with you in my life so much when I am so addicted to you. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children or the finances, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me.
Let me leave you with this. Above all else, I love you and am in love with you. But I have to let go. Know that I am letting go out of that love.
There we go. Send THAT message.
It appears that everyone here thinks I should have gone with the short version. Oops! My sister very much liked what I wrote so that's what I went with last night after class when I stopped by XW's house.
We talked for maybe 10 minutes and she took it really hard. She was crying uncontrollably and I stayed for a moment, but then left as I realized this is what I can't give her - the support for how she feels. She reiterated that she had to get her "[shiz]" together and I did say that this space may help her with that.
-PM
PM....
This probably won't be the 2x4 you were looking for from me...
When I read that, for a couple minutes, I felt all of that pain in you coming out. I felt the fear that you have, and I HATED that when I went through it.
It brought up some old memories within me, and I would assume it will do the same to every person that reads it.
I'm also having a hard time figuring you out. When you post to others, you have this confidence about you, and you always say something that makes me think, so I know you do the same with the poster you are trying to reach.
Yet when I read your thread, I see a different guy. A guy who is confused, and is really struggling hard to find peace with what has happened.
So where do you go from here ? What is it exactly that you are trying to get from that letter ???
When I read it, I see an exorbitant amount of guilt thrown out there....
Is that the way you want her to think about you when you ask for space ????
I see a very clingy, un-confident man, trying to talk his way out of something he acted his way into.
Is that who you want to be ???
I see a man, that is looking toward another person, for his answers...
Are those really the answers that you want ???
I read a man, that is trying to define himself, by what he wears on his left ring finger...
Is that what really defines you ???
I see a guy, who is trying to be a victim of what has happened to him, and not trying to embrace what the future could possibly bring, but living in what has happened , and taking a fatalistic view of his future...
Is your life really over now ???
I see a guy, who no matter how loud he screams that he wants this drama over, that also knows, this letter will create more, and possibly create a doubt in her mind, and force her to come to you for support, or better yet, open her eyes and make her see how big of a mistake she is making...
Is that really how you want her to communicate with you ???
I have seen you around Crimson's threads recently, and even pasting things on your thread, from his.
To simplify the theme that you have embraced the most... here...
When has your EX, ever really lost you ?
So why would she come looking for you, when she knows EXACTLY where you are ???
So i ask you this buddy...
Do you really want to send her that ???
Is that letter, the way you really want her to try again with you ???
At what point, will she finally lose you enough to look for you ???
Oh, and BTW....
I am not opposed to the letter...
I am just opposed to sending it to her
I'm also having a hard time figuring you out. When you post to others, you have this confidence about you, and you always say something that makes me think, so I know you do the same with the poster you are trying to reach.
Yet when I read your thread, I see a different guy. A guy who is confused, and is really struggling hard to find peace with what has happened.
I second that PM. You give great advice to others, but then you turn around and put something totally different into practice yourself. Are you one of those "do as I say, not as I do" people? LOL! I'm just kidding you there, but do try to apply the same advice you'd offer others to your own sitch too. I think that's one of the benefits of posting to other people's threads, it helps us keep a clearer mind about our own sitches. Sometimes I stop and ask myself "if someone else was describing this, what would I tell them to do?" And then I do THAT instead of what my instincts tell me to do
I said, "DUCK" because of the 2 x 4's coming your way. I am going to respond to the letter, but, PM, this is pursuing, self serving, and not something you want to send to her. I will tell you that it is not going to have the results you are hoping for. The point of this letter isn’t to dissect my personal demons, but I was addicted to alcohol and I used it to cope with many things, mainly just to escape myself.
But then that is exactly what you go on to do. ^^^ My personal demons are depression, and the years and methods I spent trying to cope with it. I didn't go into all of that history as it wasn't the point. I was simply framing what I was about to say, which was that I am addicted to her far more than anything else, and always have been. Though my personal demons were what ultimately did us in as a married couple, I didn't address them any further.
Quitting alcohol was easy. It was nothing.
Really? Easy and nothing?
Not even a little bit. I am not lying, exaggerating, or any other "-ing". She came the morning of the BD, the fog that enveloped my mind lifted, and I haven't had a problem since.
I will not say that I haven't had that craving, but it is
extremely rare, very mild, and I quickly remind myself that that isn't who I am anymore, and I'm not going back.
Not drinking has not been a problem for me at all. Not at first, and not during the entire year and a half I haven't had a drop.
XW, YOU are the worst thing I’ve ever been addicted to.
Um, read that to yourself again.
It's the truth. Like in
this song. I thought I could move on with my life...move forward with my life while having you around, providing you support when you asked for it, being your friend, but I realize now that I’ve just been feeding my addiction all along and not moving on or forward at all.
And you want to tell her that why^^^?
To explain to her why I need to cut off contact.
I WANT a family. I WANT to be IN LOVE. I WANT to be in love WITH YOU. I want to share my life with someone and put that person above everybody else. I WANT that person to be YOU, but if that is something than can never happen then I am just forcing myself to be stuck in a place where I’ll never get what I want, where I’ll never be happy.
A lot of I wants, up there, PM.
Precisely. As in, I am thinking about
ME now and I will not be so utterly absorbed in what SHE wants. *I* am going to be happy and make choices that get me there.
You and I have to be either IN or OUT. You have made it very clear that you are OUT. So I have to figure out how to move on, to move forward so that I can kick my addiction of you and be able to be open to someone else who can be open to me. It would not be fair to a new person in my life to maintain the friendship with you at the level we now have.
Guilt provoking statements, to what end?
To say that cuddling and ML are not "friend"-like behavior and that it needs to stop. It isn't healthy for "friends" to act this way, and it just sets us up for more pain down the road. At the point in time when one of us begins a relationship with someone else, those behaviors will have to cease.
Using me as a filler to make her feel better until she's back on her feet emotionally and can then go find someone else to share her life with is not an option. It was not meant as guilt provoking, but recognizing our current level of personal involvement is unsustainable and I am putting a stop to it now.
So, for lack of a better term, I need to detox. I need time and space to detox from you because you are so intoxicating to me.
PM, I dont even know what to say to that. ^^^
Saying that a woman is intoxicating...that isn't a compliment? If your partner looked you in the eye and said you are "absolutely intoxicating," you wouldn't take that as a compliment?
Perhaps it is coming across differently via text on here and that's what the confusion is/was last night.
I am going to go out on a limb here and say she knows you are still in love with her, sweetie. She has heard and seen it loud and clear.
She probably does, but that was for me. I have said it twice in six months, and since this is my "goodbye" for possibly ever, I wanted to say it one more time. For me.
I agree that we need our independence and that we need to be okay on our own. What we've been doing isn't working for me, so I have decided that I need time to deal with what my life is today, and for the future. And I have found that I cannot do that with you in my life so much when I am so addicted to you. Therefore, unless there are issues concerning the children or the finances, I will not contact you, and I ask that you do the same for me.
Thought that ^^^^ was the original plan. What happened?
I realized that I am actually saying goodbye and not faking saying goodbye. I am actually moving forward, not just saying it.
I will tell you her reaction will not be a good one. You are telling her what you want, that it is her fault because she is addictive, that you cant get over her.
No dbing going on there.
I took my DB gloves off for a moment and for a purpose, and then I put them back on. I can take the 2x4's.
What I said may not have the effect I desire, but what effect do I desire? I did not do this to win her back - I was not playing any games or using any techniques. I was telling her I am moving on from her because
I am moving on from her. So her response really doesn't matter. I wanted to say goodbye in my own way. I wanted to be open and honest one last time instead of holding everything in. After I got it off my chest I went back to my apartment and felt relief. Sadness, but relief.
Thanks for going through it. I do appreciate your - and everyone's - input...I REALLY do. I think I come across a little differently online than I do in person, especially because I come here to release feelings and vent. "Differently" as in, I am positive she has wondered whether or not I still love her. So telling her was important to me. I don't know if I'll ever say it again.
-PM
Ok, PM, thank you for your honest answers to my post to you.
I am just concerned for your welfare. I hope you know that. I do not want to see you hurting anymore and especially not by your own hand.
But, you thought it out and made your decision. I support you no matter what.
I truly hope that you can live by what you say and that you do not go back on it.
Keeping you in my thoughts and prayers on this next part of your journey.
PM....
This probably won't be the 2x4 you were looking for from me...
When I read that, for a couple minutes, I felt all of that pain in you coming out. I felt the fear that you have, and I HATED that when I went through it.
It brought up some old memories within me, and I would assume it will do the same to every person that reads it.
I'm also having a hard time figuring you out. When you post to others, you have this confidence about you, and you always say something that makes me think, so I know you do the same with the poster you are trying to reach.
Yet when I read your thread, I see a different guy. A guy who is confused, and is really struggling hard to find peace with what has happened.
I think that is accurate.
So where do you go from here ? What is it exactly that you are trying to get from that letter ???
I wanted her to know how I felt before we went our separate ways. What you all see here from me - all this indecisiveness, fear, and lack of confidence - she doesn't and hasn't seen that. At least since I started DB'ing.
When I read it, I see an exorbitant amount of guilt thrown out there....
As in guilt towards her or me? Because last night it was communicated as
my failing, not hers. Essentially I said, "You're so freakin' awesome that I can't get past you with you around all the time, so I need space."
I see a very clingy, un-confident man, trying to talk his way out of something he acted his way into.
Is that who you want to be ???
Of course not, but I don't think it came across that way based on how things transpired last night. With her I do FEEL clingy and un-confident, but I don't show it. I'm very confident that my non-confidence doesn't show.
I see a man, that is looking toward another person, for his answers...
Yes, I've always used her to validate myself. I think we talked about it previously. I realize it isn't healthy and I'm working on it.
I read a man, that is trying to define himself, by what he wears on his left ring finger...
Is that what really defines you ???
It SHOULDN'T, but it did. I don't want to get off on a tangent, but the only thing I ever wanted was her. Now I know that *I* have to define me, and I have to learn to be who I am supposed to be. I pray for that every day - that I become who He intends me to be.
I see a guy, who is trying to be a victim of what has happened to him,
I can't tell you what you see, but I can assure you this is not the case. I have beaten myself up far too much - and continue to do so - for the role I played in the demise of my marriage.
We both made mistakes, but I made the first one. My marriage is no more because of me, even if she is the one who handled the legality of it.
and not trying to embrace what the future could possibly bring, but living in what has happened , and taking a fatalistic view of his future...
This I will agree that I am guilty of. I am having trouble being optimistic about the future. I am having trouble because she really was up on that pedestal so much higher than anything or anyone else that it's taken so long for my mind to bring her down, and it's still a fight to bring her down to the same level of everyone else.
So, yes, in my brain I am non-actively thinking that I lost the only thing I ever actually wanted and I'll never have something so great. I am trying to be optimistic about the future, but I am having trouble focusing on making my future great instead of living in the past. I'll quote Ray LaMontagne: "I never learned to count my blessings, I choose instead to dwell in my disasters."
I WANT to be optimistic about the future - I really do. But when I see her it just reminds me of what I want, but can't have. And maybe that isn't fair to her, but I've got to get to a point where *I'm* healthy. Otherwise I can't be everything I need to be and should be for others. If the cabin loses air pressure, put your own oxygen mask on first, right?
It's been 19 months. I need to get healthy. I was messed up for a long time, and I'm still pretty messed up because of all this, but it's a different kind of messed up and I'm working on it.
Is your life really over now ???
That's what it feels like, but of course I know the correct answer. It feels like my old life is over and I need to figure out how to start a new one. It feels segmented, not continuous (if that makes sense).
I see a guy, who no matter how loud he screams that he wants this drama over, that also knows, this letter will create more, and possibly create a doubt in her mind, and force her to come to you for support, or better yet, open her eyes and make her see how big of a mistake she is making...
I want her to come to me for support, but I want a relationship, not a "used-ship" as sandi2 put it. In time, as we've had some time apart, I don't know what I'll want. That's kind of why I felt the need to say how I felt last night, because after last night I don't know what's going to become of me. I might be a different person with different feelings...I really don't know. But I knew who I was last night, and as of right then, when I said "space starts now", I still loved her. And I wanted her to know because I think at times she doubted it.
I have seen you around Crimson's threads recently, and even pasting things on your thread, from his.
To simplify the theme that you have embraced the most... here...
When has your EX, ever really lost you ?
So why would she come looking for you, when she knows EXACTLY where you are ???
That's what I'm working on now.
At what point, will she finally lose you enough to look for you ???
Only time will tell. And the clock started last night.
Tick-tock.
-PM
I was laid off this morning as well - just in time for my first child support payment!
It hasn't really affected me yet. Weird. Maybe the brain can only process so much junk at a time.
-PM
PM,
As my Mom annoyingly always says, "this too shall pass....". It always drives me nuts when she says this, but it's obviously true. Perfect time to have more time on your hands???
Best of luck on finding something professionally. Your XW probably hasn't had enough time to start digesting your message. I hope you get some Daddy / daughters time soon to help.
You're in my thoughts....
Later,
Trying
Shoot PM, sorry to hear about the job. Sometimes having a whole bunch of existing cr*p makes some of the other cr*p somehow less cr*ppy, at least I've noticed that in my life. You gain perspective. I hope you find something great and soon.
I thought your letter would be best sent to you. It was stuff you needed to hear and do, even though it was in the guise of telling her she needed to back off. You don't get to say what she does or doesn't do. YOU need to back off. Doesn't hurt that you told her, as long as you were listening...
Take care.
Thanks for everyone's input and support. Today was rough to say the least, but not my worst by far.
It's interesting. Fear and panic of what I have done to distance myself from my best friend and the love of my life are racing through my mind, but I think it's natural. It's a bell I can't un-ring and now I have to live this new life out. I find that I am trying to detach from myself as much as I am from her so that I can stick to the plan of becoming wholly me, not an unfilled me who requires others to fill in the missing pieces.
I don't really have any other friends, so I definitely need to GAL. The depression is back and I've gone through enough cycles of it to recognize it and hopefully take the appropriate steps to minimize its duration.
It's been a year and a half, and I'm still stuck just missing my wife...my friend. But that's why I asked for space. Because it's been a year and a half and I'm still stuck here. Something had to change and maybe I didn't do it the best way, but maybe I did it the right way.
Ramble ramble.
Did anyone listen to that song I linked? I think maybe the word "worst" has a negative connotation, but the way I put it, it isn't a negative to her at all. She seemed to understand what I meant and that's what's important.
To be perfectly honest, I asked for space for her just as much, if not more, than for me. She says she needs to be okay on her own, yet continually reaches out to me. She needs to heal too, and that's her job, yes, but I couldn't help but help, especially if it helps us both down the road.
Did I ever tell you all how I rigged a contest so she could "win" a necklace she couldn't afford? I am such a sucker for that woman...geez.
Space is hard when time screeches to a halt!
-PM
PM, sorry you are going through all of this. Tough day for sure.
Hang in there. Btw, I recommend a son called, "Let her go" by Passenger
I think you are doing the right thing for you
I realized that I am actually saying goodbye and not faking saying goodbye. I am actually moving forward, not just saying it.
Interesting, I didn't get that impression when I read it. I thought you were just saying you needed a break for a while. Oh well, it doesn't really matter because words don't have much impact on a WAS anyway, it's all about actions. So PM, what actions are you taking to move forward?
Yes, too bad about the job. That certainly takes things to another level.
Now that you've done what you've done, (the letter, etc) let it go. It's the past.
Today is a new day.
What's on your agenda.
Yes, too bad about the job. That certainly takes things to another level.
Now that you've done what you've done, (the letter, etc) let it go. It's the past.
Today is a new day.
What's on your agenda.
Well, I just handed the girls off for a week at my parents' house out of state. My full time job now is finding a full time job. So far the outlook is good.
I've lined up some GAL activities for this week as well - just reconnecting with some old friends.
-PM
Oh, and the week after next I have a friend staying with me as his house is remodeled and his family is taking a trip to see other family. So I'll have someone to hang out with at night for a week. It's been a while since I've shared an apartment with a friend... reminds me of the REALLY old days when I was in the Corps!
-PM
Hey PM,
I get how you are feeling. I get the addiction bit too. I wish I had some help for you, I don't. I don't know much these days, other than I am consumed and it is emotionally draining.
I hope that your path works for you. I know your pain and it isn't good.
Ttyl
Wow. I went from setting some boundaries to feeling like I'm saying "goodbye" to her forever. I am going to sleep on it, but I think this is best.
This is going to be hard, but if I wake up tomorrow and still feel it's the right thing to do, then it's done. Always do the right thing, no matter what.
-PM
Actually just did that today with H. I am still reading (catching up on you). It was hard, but yes, it was the right thing to do
So I haven't updated in over a week. My girls were out of state at my parents' house and I just picked them back up on Saturday. XW will be taking them out of state this weekend for another week up at her family's, so I'll have another week "off" where contact with XW should be minimal.
This past week my plan was to focus on my studies and the process of finding a new job. I did not initiate contact with XW at all. However, she did call and text quite a bit. Most of the time I didn't answer the phone, even if she called twice. I figured if she really needed something she would leave a voicemail or send me a text message or email. Every once in a while I would answer the phone to not give her the impression that I was absolutely ignoring her no matter what. And I would respond to some (few) texts, but I would wait some time before texting back.
That felt a little dishonest to me, so I ended up turning my phone volume down and leaving it not right near where I was. That way I wouldn't notice that I had missed a text or a call and I could honestly say I didn't get.
The week started off moving REALLY slow, but picked up steam and finished too quickly. I spoke to my D's a couple of times a day (they would call me), which was nice. They had a good time, though D3 wanted to come home, see her Daddy, see her Mommy, sleep in her bed, etc. All in all, the trip went well for them and my parents. It was nice to have a week where I could take my Dad hat off, but I did miss them a bunch. Funny how that works.
I did gain some perspective this past week, and I'll talk more about that in my next post which will be in a new thread since this one is running over. I don't know that I like the perspective that I gained, but I do think it was and will be beneficial to me moving forward.
W had a tough week. She is crying every day still. I "felt" the calls and texts were her reaching out because she was so lonely with the girls gone and the situation being what it is. I didn't see her from Saturday until Friday. She never explicitly asked me over, but I think she was expecting me to be by.
On the 4th, I returned from the gym to my apartment and a neighbor invited me to their barbecue and to play sand volleyball. I don't really enjoy meeting new people, but I made myself get out of my comfort zone and go. While we were at the pool XW called and I answered. There was music playing in the background and I explained where I was. She sounded REALLY down, but wouldn't admit to anything when I asked if everything was okay.
XW was doing some decorating projects around the house with the girls gone. She has always done the decorating, but I have always done the hanging of what needs to be hanged or securing to the wall what needs to be secured. Several times she did the thing where she hinted that she didn't know how to do something and wanted my help, but didn't explicitly ask for it. Normally/In the past I would read this and offer assistance, but not this week. I went so far one or two times as to say I would show her how to do something, but she never did ask. I'm not quite sure why it's fine for her to hint that she needs help, but not ask for it. We both know what she is doing.
A new week is starting and I'm in a spot similar to where XW was about two years ago this fall: convinced the other person is somebody different and the old person I fell in love with will never be returning. That's what prompted the BD, and it seems that is what is facilitating me moving forward now.
I learned more about detaching too, but I'll save that for later as well. Make today great!
-PM
PM, sounds like you're doing good DB'ing, keep it up! Regarding her reaching out, it's a nice sign but remember to take it as a baby step- just celebrate it internally and continue your DB'ing externally. Continue to let her drive the pace of contact while you focus on GAL. Good job
Thanks, AS. XW is thoroughly convinced that - even though she (admittedly) is an emotional wreck without me in support of her - she cannot work on tearing down the wall that she has erected between us. Part of what I realized this week was that I can't be with her as she is right now. She isn't the same person and she isn't someone I trust. I really WANT to, but I just don't and can't.
-PM