Last thread...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2352202&page=1and bringing my last post from over there...
Maritimer –
Your post really touched me... I can feel your pain and can see how much you are missing your kids. On top of that, you didn’t choose to be in this situation - your W left, so why should you now be punished by not seeing your kids, or financially…
I do believe my case is a bit different, though and I share it so you can see that things are not always as easy or black and white as they seem. I am not trying to convince you of anything, just sharing with you another perspective...
When my H left, he said he wanted a D and I’d have to support myself because he didn’t want anything to do with me. Our girls were 2 and 3 and I was 9 weeks pregnant at the time (and he knew it).
He went into party mode and would come visit the girls whenever it worked with his schedule, unplanned and unannounced. Sometimes he had dinner with us, sometimes he would just crash on the sofa. Often times he was only immersed in his texts with OW and leave the girls watching TV... This went on until I set boundaries for when he could come into my home and asked that he left his phone in his car. He accused me of being irrationally jealous and trying to control him.
When he moved out, he had a completely empty spare bedroom at his place, yet didn’t get furniture for the girls or had them spend the night until months after moving out. A month before our son was born, I asked if he was getting ready for his arrival. He said he didn’t realize the baby would also spend the night with him, that he didn’t have a crib. He added he was unsure if he could handle all three kids at once. In the end, he agreed to having all spend the night, still only during the weekend because it would be too much for him during the week since he was working and I wasn't.
The first time he brought up 50/50 custody to me was after he talked to a lawyer (and denied it). He brought me a settlement proposal to figure things out “without fighting and lawyers.” We’d share 50/50 custody, he would give me no alimony (although I was legally entitled to 6-7 yrs. of it) and we would split all children’s costs “50/50.” The way it would work was that I would need to separate all my living expenses between what I spent when I had the kids, vs. when I didn’t - and he would contribute to 50% of kids' expenses for only the time they were with me. This included gasoline, groceries, etc.
When he first asked for 50/50 custody, I was also unsure if that was the best for the kids and told him so. From a purely practical standpoint, how was I going to be nursing a newborn if he wasn’t with me for 50% of the time? Yet I also knew that the kids need their father too. I was very confused so I talked to two therapists on my own. I wanted to make sure I was being fair and not acting from a place of anger or control.
They both said that given how so very young the girls were, and due to the fact that I'd also have an infant shortly, that is was not advisable to have the kids going back and forth between two homes, resulting from a 50/50 split. At the time, my H was also traveling frequently for work and to see OW, which made the situation even more complex.
When I told my H, he was livid and started accusing me of wanting to control him and taking the kids away. I tried to convince him, but failed. I then asked him to go see a counselor together so we could both state our case. I promised him beforehand that I would abide by whatever the counselor’s final recommendation was; and that if that meant 50/50 custody, I would do it. And I meant it…
The counselor came back with the same opinion – 50/50 wasn’t the best for our kids at least for the next few years.
We have agreed to a temporary 65/35 custody arrangement, yet he is still very unhappy about it.
I used to invite H to join us during our outings and invited him to come to my place. He always declined and I reached a point where that wasn't working for my detachment either, so I don't invite him anymore. Needless to say, he never invites me either.
H says "how can anyone in their right mind say that it's best not to let a father be with his kids 50% of the time." I get why he is upset, yet I have chosen to trust the experts given our situation...
At the end of the day, and even if I am making a mistake, I know my intentions re. custody have always been to do what is best for the kids, so I am good with all of this and have learned to detach from my H’s anger about the issue.
Yet that doesn't mean I don't empathize with a parent wanting to be with their kids and I don't doubt that he loves them.
As for his intentions re. asking for 50/50 custody… His own actions since he left have made me doubt if he is not just financially or selfishly motivated. Yet since that is outside my sandbox, I have continued operating from a place of doing what is best for the kids since that is all I can control...
Time for an update...
When my H went to Thailand with OW for 10 days and told me two days after his return that we'd be out of cash at the end of May. He said if he didn't have any job prospects by then, he'd have to move out of his apt. and go live with a relative or friend and that I needed to figure out how to pay my expenses. I immediately started looking for a job. I was freaked out about not having money to even pay for my rent.
My L was concerned that if I went back to work before H found a job, that he might ask for alimony and child support from me...
We decided to send him a proposal asking that we both agree not to seek alimony from each other until we both were employed.
H responded saying that he "agreed to not seek spousal support from me unless it was absolutely necessary to provide him with the resources for his minimum and basic living expenses."
All I can say is that I was crushed... Hurt, disappointment, disbelief, anger - I felt it all. I made the decision to let it all go. I called my L and told her to give him all he wanted. To draft an agreement where I agreed to 50% custody and where I permanently give up my right to seek alimony from my H and that I agreed to splitting the kids' expenses 50/50. We asked that he assume all the debt incurred since he stopped working, although I don't expect him to agree to that.
I told my L that my only non-negotiable is that I will not support him - ever. I am done fighting and I cannot deal with this stress, anguish and fear while I try to rebuild my life and support myself and my kids.
My L said I was basically negotiating against myself and suggested telling H that I was willing to give him what he wanted and asking him what he was willing to give in return.
H was furious and is now accusing me of using the kids as pawns and wanting to negotiate the custody.
Simultaneously I started working. H was furious that I only told him the day after I started working. In his proposal he has requested that we inform each other of a new job within 48 hrs. of starting it, so I was well within that timeline). Yet he claims I knew for weeks before I started (I did) and that I should have told him then. (I didn't trust him). His L accused me of ignoring my Hs requests for info about my job and salary (which was untrue).
H also admitted on Thursday that he has 7k (or more?) cash left from his unemployment. I asked him why he said in April that cash would be gone at end of May. I told him that I went back to work based on that information and that I have been worried sick about the lack of money. he said he miscalculated...
So it's been really rocky the last two weeks.
Work has been very intense and I have not seen my kids much. They are with H this holiday weekend. I miss them so much, but I also need this weekend to sleep, clean the house, do laundry and re-stock my pantry. I know I will get into a groove and things will settle, but it's been tough to have to go back to work full time.
At this point, I still don't have a proposal from H... If he seeks spousal support from me, then I'll deal with that when it happens. I cannot worry about the what if's and I refuse to live in fear anymore.
That is the latest...
I will, bug.
After I do, I will get my house in tip-top shape... A special and dear friend of mine is coming from out of town to stay with me in a few days...
I can't wait!
I'm sorry about the latest KG but I know you will take it head on.
These practical and logistical changes can be stressful until the dust settles.
Enjoy your time w/ your friend
Xo
KG despite the ugliness you seem like you are in a better place. Calm, detached and moving forward. You are doing the best you under these circumstances, especially for your kids and I admire that so much.
Despite the adjustments to going back to work full time, are you enjoying the work you are doing?
I hope you have a great weekend with your friend. Take care of YOU.
xxx
SIAS & Busting,
Thanks for stopping by and for your caring and support.
I took it easy all day yesterday and feel a lot better already.
Had an unpleasant exchange with H when he picked up the kids for the weekend, though, but I think I processed it and am letting it go.
He texted on his way over saying he had fainted in his kitchen earlier in the day and that a friend (actually a family friend on my side) was driving him over. I immediately called to ask if he was ok. I said if he wasn't ok to drive, was he going to be able to care for the three kids on his own? I offered for them to spend the night until he was completely well. He replied he was and he sounded just fine. The whole exchange seemed fishy to me. Either he was sick enough that he couldn't drive himself over (and therefore not able to care for the kids), or he was fine enough to drive and have the kids.
Now, this woman who drove him over is a very attractive single woman who we've known for years (a relative of my cousin). We use to see her in my family functions (always as a married couple) and I have not seen her since before we separated. I don't remember the context of the converastion, but my H admitted to me after we split that he had always had a crush on her...
It turns out she lives in the same apt. complex and they ran into each other over a year ago. They went for a hike together to catch up on each others lives and they have gone swimming to the community pool as well - just the two of them. H told me about it and said he has shared with her about our breakup, yet I don't know how much she really knows.
Now, I don't know how often they hang out, but the way my H describes it, and knowing that my H has always felt attraction towards her, it sounds like they have an EA or are on the way to one. Not my problem. I will let OW deal with this new OW2 - lol...
Yet, I was irritated that he had used the excuse of his fainting to have this OW2 drive him to my house. Look, he is free to do whatever he wants with his life, but I don't appreciate him bringing women - any woman over to my house unless she is a family member. I really don't know for a fact what is going on with them, but I don't need to know and I don't want to know.
So when they parked downstairs, I went outside the balcony and before she got out and could hear me, I told H to please come alone to the door to get the kids. I have no idea what he told her, but she didn't come to the door.
They left and later on he texted asking why I was so rude to her (I admit what I did was rude). I told him that next time he needs to make sure it is ok with me to bring someone to my house before showing up like that. He said he had thought I would love to see her and that was going to invite me to come with them and the kids out for dinner.
I didn't even get into it with him. My H has never believed that there are certain lines that people in committed R don't cross with members of the opposite sex (even though his R with OW started exactly this way). Since I am not going to convince him, I was not about to start discussing it with him.
He was mad, which I expected, but I was not about to invite this potential OW2 into my house and chit chat about what? My life for the last 2+ years? She clearly already knows at least some of what has been happening. So to say that it would have been very awkward and uncomfortable is an understatement and I am upset that my H would put me in that situation in the first place. Yet, there is no way I could ever explain any of this in a way that would make any sense to him, so I didn't even try.
He accused me of being rude, irrational, out of touch with reality, crazy jealous and mean. I may well be all of that, but I also feel that at this point in our R, there are things I will just not put up with, and him bringing another woman here is one of them.
Yeah... I should have just let her come in, do a brief "hi, how are you" and then say something like "sorry, I am on my way out" but I am not sure I would have kept cool, calm and collected if she had come in. It all happened so quick and it just triggered the whole "she is just a friend" thing that brought H's OW1 into my life over two years ago...
I learned my lesson and I hope my H also learned his and doesn't bring another woman to my home again like that - lol...
Your sitch never gets any easier does it? You're like some mythical hero facing trial after trial. I'm with your lawyer, don't offer him anything because you find yourself in a moment of frustration and despair -- that will pass, but your legal agreement would be hard to undo.
It's frustrating from the sidelines to see the name calling and accusations when he is trying to do the absolute minimum he can get away with and maybe even take from you. That's horrible! Good for you KG you handled all of that like a pro!
Wow, kg, the woman being present really hit a button with you.
How are you feeling today?
Seriously KG, I don't have a lot to say.... (((( )))))
You are the strongest of women and better than mythical Acc, she's real!!!!
That being said, wanna borrow the whack-a-husband hammer???
Wow KG....wow,
what a month YOU have had!
A few comments. Seems your h may have a new OW. I LOVE THAT and hope you can appreciate it for what it is.
Let him have all the crushes he wants to have...NOT YOUR problem....soooo not yours.
Besides, it'll mean that maybe OW#1 isn't so perfect (as opposed to how horrible YOU always were--or so HE says)
and maybe all isn't perfect in paradise...(gee, it's like it takes TWO to make a r work or something...)
Your h left a pregnant wife. In our society, as "flexible" as we like to be, most of us think that's pretty damn crappy. Absent physical abuse (in which case HE ought to have taken the kids)
it's just not alright. At some level somewhere in his world, he has gotten that message, which means he's NOT a great guy...not so much...
so he must vilify you to justify HIM...and so he will.
Release all expectations of his opinion of you overtly improving for that reflects poorly on HIS choices, so
he has every incentive to vilify you and interpret ALL you do or say as negatively as possible.
You cannot "win" by being perfect b/c then he'd be "wrong"...
Even if you gave him every single thing he wanted, HE would STILL need to criticize you b/c he left!!
So there's no point in conceding things to him you don't believe in. You can't win anyhow
though in time
when he is free to be with OW#1,
or OW# 2 or 3 or 73,
and you are calm and serene in your new life, HE WILL WONDER and then maybe his pride
will keep him from looking too closely (and God knows he'll never admit it to YOU)
but yes I do believe he'll regret leaving --certainly the way he left---and you will have done the only thing you can do
your best to become your best. Fight for your rights and interests that matter
and do not second guess yourself so much.
You gave into anger with OW#2 and
though I hope you won't again b/c it's crucial to contrast his image of you (ie his vilifications)
with the real you...I know why.
But wouldn't it be so great to be the "Good witch" of the North instead of him being able to say '
"See? I told you she is so angry/jealous/rude"....I don't mean to rub it in your face b/c frankly, HE has no boundaries and so you should not be surprised.
(You may want to say you "get why he doesn't see anything wrong with his choices...never has...never will, why bother discussing it?" and get off the phone)
But let go of the idea that he will admit anything good about you for now.
He cannot. He has placed you in an adversarial position and he is in NO position to judge your choices.
When he brings up "deceit' on your end, you have to ask him if he's kidding, does he hear himself, does he lack ALL insight or self awareness?
Does he tell HIS family THE TRUTH about everything about the finances,
and how he left you and how he treats you and wants to pay you nothing, and what about the OWs?? Hmmm, what's that? He does NOT tell them the whole story? Oh wait, he has ONE sister who "supported" his new R...what happened to all the others? Did you work your magic spell and blind them too??
In other words if all these people who KNOW YOU and know what he's doing and know him too, are not so happy with his choices
gee, maybe, a tiny little part of him is NOT the greatest perfect guy and maybe you are not the totally evil w he left?
Just shake your head when he goes off, b/c he is one man in steep prideful denial.
The good news is that you are regaining control of your future.
No small feat...
I still say you were right about custody and I hope you'll keep putting the kids needs ahead of your fear of angering him.
remember KG, even if you give him everything he wants --it will NOT make him think more of you. It can't.
You must be the bad guy in this, to him, OR HE IS...and he cannot imagine taking on any responsibility for the divorce.
Hate to nag but I hope you are not covering for him with his family anymore. I know you don't want to be the messenger of bad news and you don't want more of your h's temper and anger,
but you still have to do right by the kids. At least don't mislead for him...too much crazy deceit as it is.
If you know in your heart that if you are truly setting aside your pride & anger (and I now trust that you usually do know)
and you are putting the kids first, then you have to leave the results up to God...
then whatever your h believes about your motives, so wrapped in his shame--really deep down shame he's probably not even conscious of---
just cannot matter anymore....
Besides, I think if you really do cast your pride and anger aside to do right by the kids, and turn all that over to God, it'll improve your R with him anyhow.
If not, so be it, You did your best and that is all anyone can do.
I know you got a lousy hand, but you have to play it as well as possible. Don't fold if you can still play it. Know what I mean?
If your L says you are acting against your interests, STOP & LISTEN....
or you'll be acting out of emotion and fear/shame, not with your head in the right place.
Get your head straight and then make your choices and stick to choices that help you move towards your goals,
Not choices that are made out of reacting or emoting...
((((( )))))
PS
A post about the difference between Giving Up, and Letting Go...
Saw this somewhere...
“There is a big difference between giving up and letting go. Giving up means selling yourself short. It means allowing fear and struggle to limit your opportunities and keep you stuck.
Letting go means freeing yourself from something that is no longer serving you. It means removing toxic people and belief systems from your life so that you can make room for relationships and ideas that are conducive to your wellbeing and happiness.
Giving up reduces your life. Letting go expands it. Giving up is imprisoning. Letting go is liberation. Giving up is self-defeat. Letting go is self-care.
So the next time you make the decision to release something or someone that is stifling your happiness and growth, and a person has the audacity to accuse you of giving up or being weak, remind yourself of the difference.
Remind yourself that you don’t need anyone’s permission or approval to live your life in the way that feels right. No one has the authority to tell you who to be or how to live. No one gets to decide what your life should look like or who should be a part of it. No one, but you.”
PS
Our lives are not very long. We must live them as happily as we can.
and copy ^^^^ paste to computer^^^^ read daily...thanks 25!!
hi kg,
sorry that you continue to go through such craziness with h.
about h... 25 is right on, he will not be able to see you any other way bc that would force him to face his own guilt. enough said there.
about OW #2... if she is a friend at all, she will understand.. perhaps it made h angry that she may realize how the mother of his three young children feels...enough said there.
about YOU... you are such an amazing person KG, so strong through this (superhero for sure) and so gentle and loving in person.. and i wonder if you lean into the feelings that came up about OW #2 what you might find out about you.
i know that, for me, my anger and hurt about my STBX and OW is so much more about me right now, and so little about them. it comes up so much less often now and when it does i notice the triggers and have realized that..
it is about my FEARS about being alone or that all this self-work has not changed my way of being in the world (co-dependent) and that STBX was "right" about me, that i am everything she has said and am ultimately unloveable or inadequate. that is what comes up for me now... and that is "stuff" i can continue to work on.
love you KG and can not wait to see you (((((((((((((((((((((KG)))))))))))))))))
OMG, KG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are amazing. The END!!
As one who dealt with a OW2...it is hilarious. Just helps us to see, it's not us. It's them.
hi kg,
sorry that you continue to go through such craziness with h.
about h... 25 is right on, he will not be able to see you any other way bc that would force him to face his own guilt. enough said there.
about OW #2... if she is a friend at all, she will understand.. perhaps it made h angry that she may realize how the mother of his three young children feels...enough said there.
about YOU... you are such an amazing person KG, so strong through this (superhero for sure) and so gentle and loving in person.. and i wonder if you lean into the feelings that came up about OW #2 what you might find out about you.
i know that, for me, my anger and hurt about my STBX and OW is so much more about me right now, and so little about them. it comes up so much less often now and when it does i notice the triggers and have realized that..
it is about my FEARS about being alone or that all this self-work has not changed my way of being in the world (co-dependent) and that STBX was "right" about me, that i am everything she has said and am ultimately unloveable or inadequate. that is what comes up for me now... and that is "stuff" i can continue to work on.
love you KG and can not wait to see you (((((((((((((((((((((KG)))))))))))))))))
Good stuff...spot on.
The scariest thing to worry about is that the "one who knew us best" says we're jerks/witches and since they left, we must "deserve" them leaving.
So hard to realize, deep down at a gut level
it's NOT about you anymore...we know you for real. you are NOT who you say you once were (and if you were a beyotch back then, big deal...3 kids under 5 and a full time long hour job and a h who is busy too....Stop that super hero chaos....been there, done that!)
We know YOU NOW...and this isn't about who you are now and that matters...
His choices now, HIS behavior is all/only about HIM.
Let go...things will get better soon...
Ok, I just went back and read 25's post.
Read it. Read it again. As you may know, my sitch has taken a surprising turn and almost 2 months ago my H admitted to all of the things 25 just said. It isn't me, it's him. He's the one who is a serial cheater who left his pregnant wife because he can't stop schtuping OW, plural. He had to make me the bad guy, otherwise and I quote "I'm John Edwards. I'm that guy. I cheat on my dying wife. I'm cheating on my pregnant wife." He still has his moments. Yesterday when he brought up my parents, he started getting all "But you were mean...you were sooo controling...wait, I'm getting defensive and blaming you. Sorry. I'm the a hole who cheated and left his pregnant wife. Dam# IT!" I still look with amazement, waiting for the crazy, blame, me-hating guy to come back. He might. I'm prepared.
Please don't just give in to what he wants. I firmly believe that it is better for the kids to be more with you. He will always have to vilify you. Otherwise, yea...he's John Edwards.
You, are amazing. Just think...at least you know who he is. You are better off without someone who would treat you like this, you are.
"it is about my FEARS about being alone or that all this self-work has not changed my way of being in the world (co-dependent) and that STBX was "right" about me, that i am everything she has said and am ultimately unloveable or inadequate. that is what comes up for me now... and that is "stuff" i can continue to work on. "
This is what I am feeling now too, but am refusing to be dragged under this time. 25 got it right, it is not about you or me or any of the LBSs, it is about WAS and their choices. We just happen to be standing at the epicentre when the bomb goes off. I guess it takes time and practice to make it about us and our choices
I thought your boundaries were appropriate. Who knows if down the road you will be even more Zen and will invite OW8 for some tea, but today you did what was right for you and your family.
I know OW1 lives far away and has her own family so she might not be available to help him on weekends when he has the kids. I know my STBX has his girlfriend over when he has our girls I suspect because its a lot of work to do solo. They probably dont even know they are doing it, but I think some of these other woman are partially child care help.
Hang in there with work It aint easy working full time and being a mom but your job isnt forever and once you become more stable finacnically maybe you can figure something else out
It’s been a long time since my last post. I am not a Newcomer and I hardly recognize any names here anymore.
Yet I have been around – reading mostly, commenting here and there but not much. Yet tonight I felt the need to write in, to journal, to share…
So be forewarned - this will be a long one...
My H is still a WAH and still doesn’t want to reconcile.
He filed for D on 9/12, but has yet to submit financials or send me a proposal. I have not pursued it further because
a) I still don’t want a D
b) I don’t have a lot of money saved for the L, so I will wait for his proposal and then react to it.
c) All the financial damage that he could have inflicted has become a reality, so there’s not much more for me to protect at this point.
I went back to work in May – against my L and my CPA’s (H’s brother) advice. At that time H completely cut me out financially and I didn’t want to make it harder on my kids. I am so, so grateful that I am healthy and found a job right away that enables me pay the bills. I figure once H moves forward with the D, we’ll negotiate and I'll make sure the settlement is fair. For now, I can take care of myself.
He finally found a job, after being unemployed for over 10 months. I don’t know how much he makes, but it sounds like a lot less than me because during an argument he told me he was being nice to me by not asking for alimony from me…
Once you detach, you start seeing things as they really are. I am still very much aware of my faults in our M. I never denied that. Yet, at bomb drop, as many LBS, I took all the blame – internally and publicly. I can see now that it’s not so. For instance, while I used to think H was careful and protective of our finances, I now realize he is just cheap and selfish re. money. Ironically my father is exactly the same way – amazing how we do repeat family patterns – lol…
Emotionally I am doing much better than where I was at BD. Work is busy and stressful and it gives me a daily challenge and opportunity to improve myself, to try to not overreact, to try to not give it too much importance, headspace, and to try to find a balance in my life. It also lets me see the dis-function in certain dynamics with co-workers – not always easy, but I can see my faults more clearly and where I still need to improve. Yes, there’s still A LOT of work to do within myself…
My kids are growing – fast… I’d lie if I said they are not struggling emotionally, but I didn’t expect any different. Life is busy and challenging, but I know now that I am a perfectly capable mother trying my best to show them love everyday and focusing on making my limited time with them the best it can be.
I still need to work on my patience… It’s not always easy dealing with 3 kids under 6, a 60-hr. / week job and everything life throws at you. I am physically and mentally exhausted many times, and yes, I can always do better, but I keep trying.
I think the big improvement for me is my awareness… When I act in a way that is not ideal, I immediately try to fix it, where as before, I was simply clueless. Yes, still a long way to go before I can say I have become the woman I want to be, but I am ok with it. You can call me a slow learner, I don’t mind – lol…
As for my R with H, I am pretty detached - finally… I don’t pursue, I have given him all the space he wants, our lives are pretty much completely separate after 3 years. I really don’t know anything about his daily life and don’t ask. I am focused on my own journey, my own goals and my own challenges.
I think I have finally let go of the anger I felt for H. I should re-phrase that… when I feel anger towards him or the situation, I can let the feelings flow and pass, rather than react to him. This is HUGE for me, and it only took me almost 3 years – lol… you read right, BD for me was 12/23/10…
Our R during this 3-year separation has been extremely tumultuous and explosive. I admit – OW took too much of my headspace and his affair has truly been a deal-breaker in terms of making me move forward in any way with him. We both have been distrustful - him for all the reasons that led him to leave and my continued hostility, and I for his affair and actions since DB. So we’ve harbored anger towards each other.
The first year could have been characterized by his anger, the honeymoon period of his affair, my guilt, my pursuit, my hurt and anger after the discovery of his affair and my complete lack of detachment.
Year two, he was still in fantasy-land, wanting to have a R with OW AND wanting to be friends with me. I would have none of it and his filing for D just added a lot of animosity and hurt on both ends. Nothing improved and we grew farther and farther apart.
He has insisted for at least a year that he wants to successfully co-parent with me. I was just too hurt to have anything to do with him, so I went dark – as much as I could with 3 kids keeping us in constant communication. Having OW front and center not only in H’s life, but also in my kids life was the hardest part. And so it took a LONG time for me to detach.
Until recently…
H has showed some signs of self-awareness and accountability.
In July, he said in an email: “I believe you did feel blindsided by me (which was originally very hard for me to accept as true) and that your pain over that was/is incredibly difficult to deal with."
A week later, he sort-of apologized for hurting me. I didn’t take his half-hearted effort too kindly and asked that if he was to apologize, he needed to be specific. Here is his response:
“I am asking forgiveness for hurting you with my actions. Specifically for so quickly jumping from our relationship to seeing other women. At the time, I believed that I had made it clear to you that I had ended our relationship prior to seeing someone else. I was naive in my belief that you would somehow be ok with this. I started looking for other options way too soon thinking that "I'd already given you too many chances". This was wrong, so I'm asking for your forgiveness as I have done in the past.
I know that you believe I cheated on you. And I don't know how to reconcile that with what I believe and what I experienced, which was the ending of our romantic relationship. I wish I could tell you what you want to hear, especially if it would help you heal, but I don't believe that I cheated on you, and I can't add another lie of admitting to this if I don't believe it. I hope you can understand my struggle with the language you are choosing to describe me. That's all I can ask.
I think we can both agree that it was inappropriate for me to start seeing others so soon. I had very little patience at the time and just wanted to move on and feel loved. It was a mistake and I'm sorry it hurt you.”
He then followed-up with:
“It was absolutely inappropriate to chat with OW and talk to her that much while we were still living together. I completely agree with you about that. I am so very sorry I did that.
Since some of my conversations were about our troubled marriages, I realize that it was inappropriate to discuss my marriage with other women, even my friends. At the time, I was looking for advice and support. I did not share feelings with her or anyone that I hadn't shared with you, but that still doesn't make it right.
It was foolish of me to think that it was appropriate in the first place, but at the time I think I was a bit naive about that too. I never considered cheating on you ever. It never occurred to me that confiding with someone of the opposite sex was even bad. It just wasn't in my realm of possibilities to go beyond a conversation. I realize now that it is a slippery slope regardless of intention. I am so sorry that you had to deal with the hurt that came from knowing that I was turning to other women for advice and support, especially knowing that one of those relationships turned into something more. Please forgive me.
I think you're right that I kept it secret from you because I realized the perception of what it would look like and the hurt it would cause you. I am as disappointed and embarrassed in my behavior as I ever have been, but I am trying to forgive myself and earn your trust again.”
This was the first time I heard him sound grounded and take accountability for anything specific since DB.
Then earlier this month he sent me an email after a fight where he said:
“I wish I would have approached this whole split different from the start, but I have done so many stupid things that I thought were right at the time. I do feel very much responsible for the status of our relationship and its ongoing negative effects, and I struggle balancing my own sense of fairness about how this divorce/separation works (which is clearly different from yours) with trying to keep a peaceful and caring relationship with the mother of my children. I am at a loss on how to work out that balance. “
At the end of Sept. he told me he and OW “had not been serious for quite some time.” Yet, just a few days ago a mutual friend mentioned to me that OW commented on a photo H posted of our D6’s birthday and just yesterday, he told me he is out of town next weekend.
So they could or could not be history. They could or could not be back together… Out of my control, so I don’t worry about it. I continue living my life. And despite all of the above, he still doesn’t want anything with me except friendly co-parenting. That he is clear about…
In the last couple of months, after almost three years of a nasty, nasty rollercoaster filled with distrust and anger, something finally clicked.
Perhaps I was just tired, or perhaps time helped or perhaps my efforts in detaching and GAL finally paid off, or perhaps I finally listened to the advice I was given since day 1 on these boards… but I finally felt detached enough to forgive him and try to have a peaceful R with him.
I am not saying it happened overnight, but I think I finally had the self-awareness that I was ok with where I am at and things don’t seem like life and death anymore. And so I did something different… I sent him an email saying I was tired of putting up a wall and that I chose to begin a new R with him, to show kindness and be vulnerable. And so I have been friendlier and have even reached out to him with non kid-related texts.
We have had many friendly interactions and shared about some of the things we used to enjoy – sports, family happenings, cute things the kids do… We celebrated our D6 birthday as a family and I even told him he is welcome to come with us on our Xmas trip. He said he’ll think about it and I fully expect him not to come. I can't wait for the trip - I have not been in my home country for 2 years and cannot wait to see my family. I will have a blast no matter what.
He’ll have the kids for Thanksgiving this year. I don’t know what his plans are and wasn’t expecting an invitation. I didn't get it anyway. I actually really have no expectations that anything will change any time soon. And yet things are slowly improving so we can at least co-parent and be friendly. That’s all he wants and I think that is all I can handle for now.
And so I continue with my own plans and my own life…
I realize I can open my mailbox any day and find a letter from his lawyer asking for financial disclosures or offering some kind of settlement. Will I be hurt disappointed when it happens? I am sure I will. Yet, I realize it won’t be the end of the world. I don’t know how hard or for how long it will hit me, but I know I will come out of it. Like I have done with everything in these last 3 years. It has not been pretty, or linear or smooth, but there has been considerable progress – IN ME. Heck, I have even re-gained all the weight I loss after DB and find myself in need of some serious dieting – lol…
I don't consider myself in limbo... My life is moving, I have plans and I have A LOT of things to work on - within myself and a very, very busy life.
I have no interest in divorcing or dating right now. When I am, I'll take action.
I am not there and that's ok.
And I still love my H, and that's ok too.
But for now, it’s just baby steps continuing with my goal of treating H with the kindness that the father of my children deserves, not because of his actions, but because of how I want to act and who I want to be – despite of who he is or what he does…
And so I keep going… ☺
Keep Going,
Your post made me cry. I was so touched by it. You have been through the mill for so long and H is finally acknowledging it. Finally. I can only imagine what kind of feelings and emotions washed through you and are probably still experiencing.
I have no interest in divorcing or dating right now. When I am, I'll take action.
I am not there and that's ok.
And I still love my H, and that's ok too.
But for now, it’s just baby steps continuing with my goal of treating H with the kindness that the father of my children deserves, not because of his actions, but because of how I want to act and who I want to be – despite of who he is or what he does…
This touches me. This expresses who I want to be. This inspires me. To me this expresses who I imagine you to be.
I have missed you KG. I was thinking about you the other day, and it warms my heart to read a post that is finally positive and validating of your feelings and your struggles.
You are like a sister to me.
Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being so wonderful.
I wish you a very happy holiday season. Filled with the peace, love and happiness you deserve. Here is to another year of growth and internal peace.
I have moved to MLC Forum. My struggles remain the same...
All my love to you and your beautiful children.....
KG, thank you for sharing. I am in yr 2 of separation. D has started.
I read closely your h's apology. trying to get sometype of understanding about my h.
I do hope my h will some day provide me with some sense that he has contemplated the impact of all of this to me and our children. H has stated he thinks the children will be "ok"
my h said he didn't mean for the A to happen,and takes owenership
of the pain he has caused 'so many'.
I want to be more detached. I am such a slow learner!
I am inspired by your story. I hope I can get to where you are at. Do you think you could have sped up your detachment/healing, or does it take the time that it takes?
I had to look twice when I saw the name keep_going! So good to hear from you!
You sound like a very different person and I'm so happy for you. this process just takes as long as it takes.
H sounds like things are starting to fall in to place in his head, too. Like he's almost done trying to justify his actions.
Here's a hug ((( ))) wish I could give you a real one. You could come here for T-giving! I know you will have a wonderful Christmas.
I agree with busting, this says it all: But for now, it’s just baby steps continuing with my goal of treating H with the kindness that the father of my children deserves, not because of his actions, but because of how I want to act and who I want to be – despite of who he is or what he does…
Thanks for sharing KG...I was touched by your update as well.
Much of what you wrote and alot of the dynamics w/ your WAS u described felt like u were describing my sitch or some exact thoughts in my head.
It is great to witness growth in you and is another example that gives me hope to progress.
I have been unable to get to forgiveness for my WAW and I will live with it and be affected by it for as long as it takes.
Like you, the anger still comes every now and then but I am able to process it and let it go without a reaction.
Do you think his recent apology (which seemed sincere) helped it click for you?
My WAW has never apologized or acknowledged any pain she caused me or our kids and I'm not expecting that to ever happen but I do wonder how I would be affected if she ever showed remorse.
But for now, it’s just baby steps continuing with my goal of treating H with the kindness that the father of my children deserves, not because of his actions, but because of how I want to act and who I want to be – despite of who he is or what he does…
I have a similar goal and it still seems like I am only not my true authentic self w/ one person.
Thanks for all your thoughts KG
Hi KG, nice that you are finally getting some understanding and empathy from H. It's great to see him finally giving his actions some scrutiny. Funny that he still feels he didn't cheat, that although you were married and living together with 3 little kids, the fact that he felt the relationship was over made it okay for him to start seeing someone else. Just shows you how intricately a WAS will twist things in their mind to make their actions okay.
Glad you seem to be in such a good place, very happy for you.
Acc
wow...
I have been a fool getting away from the boards and giving up on all this support! I am so lucky to have so many responses and so many people who care. I am truly, moved and so, so grateful to everyone who has posted on my threads.
25, kate, tallula, need grace, bug, acc, bklynMom - I never really responded to all your postings from a few months ago. If you guys are out there - I just want to thank you for being there for me. All of you have been there for me for such a long, long time.
I am happy to be back and hope to pay it forward to others and to you all.
I will now respond to the most recent posts...
busting - I send you a big, big, hug. You know you are also like a sister to me. Our situations, our timelines and our struggles have been so, so similar from the start... And here we are - still at it. I am fortunate to travel this path with you, my dear friend. Please don't sell yourself short - I have kept up to date on your updates (lurking, mostly) and you have also come a long, long way. I will come visit you soon and post on the latest.
(((((((busting)))))))
Willbwell & RockJC - thanks for stopping by. I am sorry you are also here, and that you find yourselves struggling (like we all do). Praise yourselves for your strength and determination in keeping at it.
Re. being a slow learner and findind detachment - I think one of the key issues for me was to finally be forgiving of myself and where I am in this journey.
I needed to stop punishing myself just because it's taking me longer than others to detach or get to a better place. So what? Who cares? This is MY journey and I will take as long as I need. So hang in there and just keep focusing on yourself.
I finally now realize that when we hear that we have been given the gift of time - it's so true... This time is for us, to really dig deep and work on the only thing we can control - ourselves. Our S will have a lot of work to do themselves, or not... But we have plenty to do over here, so let's stay focused on that and not worry about the time it takes.
In reality, this is a life-long journey and as far as I am concerned, it will take me until I die, so might as well stop beating myself up for it and keep at it, right?
Bug, Say, Acc - It's so good to see you guys over here. Your posts and presence make me feel at home!
You guys have been here for me for a long time... Always pushing me forward and encouraging me.
Re. my H's apology...
I used to think that I really needed him to recognize and apologize. After he did, I have to say, not much really changed, since it had been a long time since he had stopped spewing at me and his surface behavior towards me had been civilized for a long time...
Nothing much changed in the sense that he may be remorseful that he hurt me, yet is not willing to do anything about it. Sure, I can now say I was right, but as 25 says, being right doesn't make me happy...
I guess the only consolation is that I know I wasn't crazy - lol...
I may chukle now, but as many, many here, there were times where I truly doubted my sanity and let that perky, nasty fear of "what if" take over... 25 and Grace said it some time ago on this same thread - the negative thinking of "what if H is right and I am truly broken, truly nasty and truly unlovable?" is very dangerous. Because that is what "the bomb" really is - having the person you most trusted in this world telling you that you are disposable and that they don't want anything with you. And that messes up with your psyche like nothing else. So I guess I found validation that I was not as crazy as he said.
But other than that, his apology really didn't mean anything in practical terms. I have actually read a few times on the boards from others who also got an apology, some many years later or after D, and it seems like my feelings about it are pretty common with what others felt.
And yes, Acc - it's amazing how a WAS will rationalize things in their minds to make things work for them...
My H has said many, many times since day 1 after DB - "we are not married." Yet, we have filed taxes as a married couple these three years, and just two months ago, he asked me to put him on my health insurance as his spouse, since his doesn't kick in until January. LOL...
I love reading your posts, you are such a great writer and you cut to the chase.
You're a good person for not saying "but how can I put you on my insurance when we're not married?"
I too love the way you write. You get to the heart of the matter and express so much that I know for myself, I cannot express!
(((((((KG)))))))))
Hi KG! nice to see you back here. You also say a lot that I think, "yeah, me too!"
I had a weird response to your story of H's apology. I thought, wow, if my H had 1/1,000,000,000 of the emotional depth and ability to articulate feelings that your H displayed in just his apology, maybe we would have been ok. Then - NO - maybe we're more hopeless than ever because even a guy that could say that is still not rushing back into his wife's arms to repair the marriage together. So that lands me back where you are; it doesn't change much. But still, validates what you have thought and known, which must feel somewhat good.
I love that you didn't accept a half-baked nothing, but asked for him to be specific! I plan to use that some day, some how.
Anyway, reading along as always, just wanted to say hey.
Keep_going, good to see you back here for your insights. I’m glad you are doing well. It is very inspiring to read your updates. It is interesting to know that your H’s apology did change the way you feel. I’ve been having similar thoughts recently, that even if my H would apologize for his decisions, it would not change how I would relate to him. Please keep the updates. I agree with others, you are a very good writer and can express your feelings and thoughts in a way that it resonates with all of us here.
I LOVE your post KG, I just love it. It's not surprisimg that you wrote it but it's nice to see anyhow.
I think your h's progress is dramatic, if a bit delayed. But as you say, your goal is being your best self regardless of HIS actions so, in some ways he's sort of irrelvent. At least to your self esteem.
That is healthy.
Congrats, keep going, Keep Going! And do SOME GAL please...yeah I know, you are busy! But when your stbx has the kids, why not GAL then? It cannot be all about work
that is how you got here in the first place. By GAL now, you decrease the chance of finding yourself in that superwoman RUT again.
and your attitude and self esteem will all shine in more positive light. That's good for you inside and outisd.
Be well! Hope to see you soon!
Today and every day I have so many things to be grateful for...
I am grateful for my health - without it I can't really do much.
i am grateful for my family - those with whom I am close, those with whom I am not so close and those with whom I have a challenging relationship. You are all an important part of who I am.
I am thankful I have a job that I like, that helps me pay my bills and support my kids and where I get to work with amazingly talented colleagues and friends.
I am thankful for all the simple things in life - too many to list here, like the smell of freshly-cut grass, whipped cream on pumpkin pie and sunsets on the beach. I am thankful that I can enjoy them every day if I so choose to.
I am thankful that I have a home, food on my table, warm clothes, a car to take me where I need to go, and access to technology that helps me keep connected to others.
I am thankful for all the lessons I learned this year and the awareness that I still have so much more to learn.
I am grateful that I get to have choices about my life, that I am free to actualize my dreams and that I am prepared and ready for changes and challenges.
I am grateful for the things I have lost, which makes me appreciate everything i have not.
I am most thankful for my kids, the light and love of my life, who motivate me to try to be a better person every day.
And I am grateful for all of you, my friends, my family and my loved ones who can read this and with whom I can share my thoughts and my life.
Happy Thanksgiving to you all!
Wow an apology huh? I'm shocked...
Apologies are good for sure but there are two kinds. Those that turn into new actions/ and those that are said.. just to be said.
One is selfishly motivated, the other is truly for the other person.
It has been clear in these past years that your apology has been motivated from a selfLESS place.
Time will tell what motivated your H's.
Regardless.. it doesn't matter as long as you don't attach expectations to it (which was my mistake). Just appreciate it for what it is.
You are an amazing woman KG! Keep living, keep going.
And I completely agree with 25. You need to GAL!! It's been far too long since I've seen you girl!
Happy Holidays to you!
KG - It is nice to see you moving forward with your new mindset. I know it is not easy and we all get there in our own time and in our own way. But isn't it liberating to just let go of the anger? It is like a knot that gets tighter and tighter and then one day the knot just sort of unties itself and everything appears to be different.
I hope you stay on this path and continue to go and grow and glow!
Cheers!
I think the apologies are easy to categorize but we overlook the Path they can take. Like our growth and progress, theirs is not linear. Their realizations may lead to regret and that may lead to an apology, but it may take a year or 5, to realize the full extent of our mistakes or their impact, let alone to express our regret to the right parties...let alone that would suffice to them...
Like forgiveness, we can "conceive" of an idea, and then work on it, and then really truly feel it, and then later give birth to it in new ways of reacting or behaving. Lots of steps.
I don't see any selfish side to KG's hubby apologizing.
Oh sure It's not a full fledged "I'm all about awareness" deal, for sure. But he's beginning to wake up...
Not sure how brave he is in the awakening, and how much he is ever going to be willing to change...all that remains to be seen.
But I don't doubt he means well. I don't think it's coming from a selfish place.
In my opinion, the time for manipulation is over, OR not even here yet...
So KG, I don't see a reason for you to change your course of action (b/c frankly, it's working when we remind ourselves that the main goal of our work here is OUR work, and yours IS succeeding b/c you are becoming your better/best self and you are feeling more contentment...
not always, not consistently, but yes MORE...)
So I DO see reason for a bit of hope for improved relations as coparents...and for now that's probably the best we can hope for. Really, it is not a small thing.
um, Down the road, who knows? I would not spend energy on that now.
We don't know a thing about OW and your h, and that's OKAY.
We don't know about his work or salary...(though you could find out if you wanted to enough),
B/C what really matters is YOUR LIFE and how YOU ARE DOING
and from what you tell us here, you're moving forward. Like you should.
AND KG
Let's laugh together soon!
Amazing update. Sounds like you are doing great.
Although I am totally with 25 in her anti super woman stance I really think getting back to work was a huge step forward for my recovery. Being home with the kids was too hard for me.
I can't believe your h wrote those letters of acknowledgement. I heard at a meeting once that we need denial because if we could admit to ourselves all the things we have done to hurt people we wouldn't be able to live with ourselves. Seems like you h is slowly working through his deniAl.
Hi guys,
Thanks again to everyone for stopping by and all the food for thought. I am lucky!
Bug, Busting, Bright Future - Thanks for the nice compliments - you are all so sweet and supportive!
You're a good person for not saying "but how can I put you on my insurance when we're not married?"
Acc - I am actually not such a good person... I initially added him because he is the father of my kids and I wouldn't want anything to happen to him health-wise and it really doesn't cost me more.
Yet, literally a week after I added him, the refund for last year's taxes arrived. (We filed as a married couple for the joint tax benefits - or so I thought...) Yet he took all the money and spent it all on repaying his personal cc debt w/o telling me about it. I was terribly hurt and called him out on it (not DB at all) I told him that for some things he wants to hold on to our married status, like health insurance or tax benefits, yet for others he acts like we are not. He claims all the money was his since I didn't work last year.
I guess we just see things differently and believe me - when that happened, I wished I had not added him to my insurance - lol...
Ad - Thanks for stopping by! I read every one of your updates - I learn so much from them and I love to see all your introspection.
I had a weird response to your story of H's apology. I thought, wow, if my H had 1/1,000,000,000 of the emotional depth and ability to articulate feelings that your H displayed in just his apology, maybe we would have been ok. Then - NO - maybe we're more hopeless than ever because even a guy that could say that is still not rushing back into his wife's arms to repair the marriage together.
I have fallen more into the second line of thinking - he is sorry for all the hurt he caused, yet his regret is not enough to make him have second thoughts, so the situation feels hopeless. I admit this is my own negative thinking acting as a defense mechanism. If I just mentally fall back to the worst possible scenario, I will save myself from hurt down the road. Not healthy, but human. (I believe Busting wrote about this on her thread not too long ago. That made me realize I fall into this negative thinking trap.)
By GAL now, you decrease the chance of finding yourself in that superwoman RUT again.
25- Thanks for all the advice. I hear you on the dangers of the superwoman thing. Look - there are certain things about my situation right now that I cannot change. One of them is the fact that I have to pay the bills and support my three kids on my own. So in a way, all single parents in a tough financial position are "superheroes". As for the GAL, trust me - I try to get in as much as my limited free time allows - socializing, movies, reading, going to the beach. I have also started cooking as a hobby, trying new things I have never done before.
The part that would be lacking is trying new activities and definitely exercising more - I still need to find the discipline to carve time out for that. Right now I prioritize by cultivating the relationships I already have and to which I really don't give that much of my time in the first place...
Apologies are good for sure but there are two kinds. Those that turn into new actions/ and those that are said.. just to be said.
Val! So good to hear from you!
I agree with you that time would tell what kind of apology I got from H.
Well, I found out the day after Thanksgiving that a) H indeed had broken up with OW for a couple of months. b) They are back together again.
I received another email from him just the day before I found out about this. It was unsolicited and the content and timing seemed suspect to me. I will update on that later, but his actions lately seem to indicate that he is sorry he hurt me, but not sorry enough to change his behavior.
I read somewhere that sometimes people apologize to appease their own guilt. They look for forgiveness from the hurt party to give themselves permission to continue with their behavior...
isn't it liberating to just let go of the anger? It is like a knot that gets tighter and tighter and then one day the knot just sort of unties itself and everything appears to be different.
2thep - Thank you for your post!
What you say about anger is so, so true... I have admitted before that my biggest deamon has been anger. Yes, it is liberating to take the bull by the horns and take control of what controls us. It will be a life-long fight for me and it's not always easy. The Thanksgiving holiday was a big test for me (more on that later). But I rode the wave and against all my instincts, I didn't act negatively on my hurt and everything I was feeling and that is a positive step! I feel much better now.
So KG, I don't see a reason for you to change your course of action (b/c frankly, it's working when we remind ourselves that the main goal of our work here is OUR work, and yours IS succeeding b/c you are becoming your better/best self and you are feeling more contentment...
AND KG
Let's laugh together soon!
I agree completely with the above, 25. Thanks for the support, and yes - we'll laugh together very soon!
BklynMom - Thank you for stopping by. I just caught up on your thread - I am sorry about the D, but you are doing an amazing job of moving forward with your life! I wish we lived in the same area - we could have play dates with our girls...
Hugs to you all!!!
And now the update...
As I had mentioned, my R with H had dramatically improved in the last month or so. Last Tuesday we went out for dinner as a family again and took the girls to see Frozen. We all had a great time!
Then on Tuesday night he sent me another email:
"I really wanted to tell you how grateful I am for the effort you've made in our relationship. I must admit that I am still a bit surprised by the whole thing.
I know that I haven't always been cooperative the last few years and I wanted you to know (for the millionth time) that I'm so sorry for that. I am trying too. I'm trying to be straightforward and cooperative and open, while being sensitive to your feelings. I've hated always being suspect and closed off to you. I feel like that has changed a lot.
Seeing how much the kids appreciate our effort has been amazing for me.
I am so worried that things will fall apart at any moment and that we will be back to square one - whether it's spurred by me letting you down because I tend to screw up or even you hearing that the kids spent time with OW. The doubt is always in the back of my mind and I'm trying to let it go.
So there's one thing I wanted to bring up and at least acknowledge. The truth is that I struggle with wanting to be transparent with you so as not to "blindside" you, and I've also struggled with knowing that there's certain things about my life that you'd prefer I keep to myself.
It got me thinking that on the occasions that I do see OW, I feel silly and evasive sometimes just saying "I (we) have plans" in order to avoid the conversation, and in all honesty, I don't know what you want to know and what you don't. It's almost like we have developed this policy of "don't ask, don't tell" that usually causes its own problems.
Yet the bottom line is that it hurts you whether I tell you things or whether I hide them from you. In all truth, I think it's better that we don't talk about her, but I know that on the rare occasion the kids see her, you're going to hear about it from them anyways and then you'll feel like I hid it from you. So I just don't know what to do.
I want you to know that I'm not expecting a response (unless you want to), but I did want to at least acknowledge my ongoing dilemma. I'm not sure if there is a way to resolve it, but at least you know where I stand.
I am going to keep trying to be cooperative and open to you. I think it's the one choice that I seem certain about in my life right now. I hope you see that I'm trying."
I know my H - he is a conflict avoider and this was his way of telling me we was back with OW, without having to say it flat out. I wondered about the timing of the email as well. Well, the very next day (Wed) OW came to town and spent the day with my kids, baking pie for Thanksgiving dinner, which they spent at my MIL.
I found out about those events through my D6 and D5 on Friday morning, when H dropped them off. First thing they did when I opened the door was to excitedly start telling me all about Thanksgiving with Grandma and OW. They had brought the toys that OW had given them as presents.
Ouch... Ouch and ouch again...
First thing I did was hug them and then I handed the toys back to H and told the kids that it was better for daddy to take those toys back to his place so they would have something new to play with when they went back there...
What did I feel? Hurt, anger, disappointment and everything in between.
The realization that OW is back and forefront once again in my kids' life - that is the hardest. I don't know if that will ever get easier, but I really, really hope so.
Knowing that MIL has now welcomed OW to her house - when my kids are there - that hurts... A lot. Yes, I cannot control that and yes, it was a matter of time, but heck - it still hurts. That woman has been like a second mother to me and I have always been (and treated her) like a daughter. I know - blood is thicker and H is her son, so ultimately she needs to be supportive.
The whole toy thing - I think that was extremely insensitive of H. I know he didn't do it on purpose. In fact, I know it probably never crossed his mind. He just doesn't think about my feelings and is simply clueless, yet it was still insensitive.
It hits you hard, specially when you are not expecting it and it comes from the kids. No other choice but tough it out in front of them and pretend all is good.
And finally, knowing that they are back together. IDK, It's been three years, against all odds, long distance, with all the challenges in the world, yet they keep making an effort to make it work. I cannot predict the future, but the odds are simply just not good at this point.
The only thing I did was text H that I thought it was insensitive of him to bring the toys and that it hurt me. I also told him that his email from the night before now made sense to me.
He apologize for bringing the toys and agreed it was a bad move. He said he wants our R to continue to improve and be friends. I responded that I would continue to be polite and get along, but that at this point a friendship was not feasable to me. I added that there is no room for OW and me in his social life and that as long as she is in the picture, we cannot be friends.
Not DB at all, but that is the boundary that I set for myself many months ago. I tried unsuccessfully for a couple of years to try to be a friend for H, ignoring his R with OW. Every effort ended in setbacks and conflict, because in the end, I felt disrespected and taken advantage of. I know others are strong and can do that w/o feeling like their spouses are cake-eating, but the OW issue is a deal-breaker to me.
I know that to be at peace and not live with anger I will have to go dim with H as long as OW is in the picture. Probably won't save my M, but at least I can continue healing and that is all I can control for now.
IF and when she is gone - we'll see...
KG- good to hear from you (( ))
You know me, I am a big fan of doing what works for me. And if dim works for you, I am on board.
This is what I have come to know: DBing saves you. Saving the marriage is just a by product that sometimes occurs.
KG,
As you may remember I had a front row seat for my sister's affair. That's still going on after 3 years as well -- they are both now divorced. The advice on this board about affairs is really not to fight it and wait for it to end. The affair is based in fantasy so presumably it's not a "real" relationship and is destined to fail.
What I've seen in my personal life is that sometimes that's true, but more often it turns into a "real" relationship with good and bad and can then last a really long time.
I think your policy of protecting yourself is the right way to go. Sorry for the ongoing challenges!
(((k_g)))
You know I've said many times I don't know how I would feel if I were in your situation. But from where I sit, I think your H is being pretty sensitive or at least trying right now. Yes, the toy thing hurt but we all screw up and maybe he shouldn't have screwed up right then ... It's a big step for him to be vulnerable and put all this out there and try to work something out.
Would it help you to know when the kids are going to see OW? Have you thought about that?
I know that these events, whether an OW is involved or not, tend to make us question our own Okay-ness. "What's wrong with me that my S would leave?" They leave because of stuff in them. We stay because of stuff in us. You are an amazing, accomplished, beautiful woman who is succeeding despite the challenges. You have strength that is so strong and so deep. I do agree with 25, that you may try to hard to do everything. Sometimes we lose ourselves in that and we forget we actually have a life.
You have such a capacity for love and joy, I want you to experience that again.
You have a life waiting for you.
I don't have a lot to add to what others have said, except three things.
1) while you say you are not truly DBing when you resist being friends w/your ex h while there is an OW...
I see that two totally different ways.
On one hand, I say "wow, KG, no way. Since You cannot control who he sees, AND since he DID file for D, to him at least it's not as if he's "cheating" on you (these days most people believe him) and you are not under the same roof and finally,
why would you want to worsen things between you two, which only serves his need for OW more"....??
OTOH,
IF your bottom line was that it just feels too much like cake eating to you, and right or wrong, that's YOUR boundary...and you're certain, then all I can say
"okay"...so be it.
If it's really true that you simiply cannot muster whatever it takes to keep things improving between you two, b/c of OW, then that's the risk you know you are taking and that's it.
I think you know what you need to do to protect yourself.
So do it. If it works, who are we to say otherwise? None of us are perfect DBers. I can't even read my old posts without getting mad at myself for prolonging the "WHY???" and the "HOW COULD HE?" endless questioning which kept me stuck for far too long...
The other comment I wanted to address was about your MIL having OW over to her house. I know you felt betrayed. But think about what HER choices were....
KG, I am one of 9 children and there have been several times I and my siblings (and parents) have had to meet the new OP in our sibling's lives.
NOT ONCE has it been "easy" or enjoyable for us to meet OPs.
We usually wince, take a breath and make the best of it. We also often pity the new OP b/c we know THEY know we're not "in favor" of them. Which stinks for them...
For instance, My oldest brother left a WONDERFUL woman who felt like a sister to me. She's "W1" of my brother. He left her in '98 and their divorce was finalized a few years later. I urged her to seek her own counsel (my brother said HE could do THEIR divorce and he was insulted by my advice to her to get her own L. That hurt MY brother's feelings! (Talk about cray cray crazy)...
Well my x sil and I are still in touch and probably spend more time together than my b brother and I do. We vacation together. I very much like her new h (11 years now).
W1 (my former sil) is now remarried and has a h who better understands her and loves her better than my brother ever could have.
Knowing that she is genuinely happier, helps me.
But don't ever assume that because we "tolerate" meeting OPs, that we like them, let alone prefer them!
We do our best to accept what our siblings do, and in my family, we do speak our minds at some point. And we did. We ALL told my brother he was making a "huge mistake" and he would "never do as well" with any OW as he had with his wife1. But at some point we had to stop beating a dead horse.
AND you know what? In a way we were wrong, b/c my oldest brother is NOT a very good or attentive h.
He does not want a very close (="demanding") r with a wife. He wants a woman wife low/no expectations of him except fidelity.
He likes to get his family fix when he wants it, like a day a week, or less, and then wants to be a single guy in other ways. He won't cheat, he's just self centered and very into his career and multiple hobbies.
For W1, he was a lousy h. She wanted someone to help raise their d, she wanted a partner who would give as much as he took, or try to...
He's witty, he's well read and he treats my mom well. But he's ALWAYS been a lazy person when it comes to relationships...he "needs" a low maintenance wife, whereas his first wife wanted a partner. So to tell you the truth that's probably why w1 is happier now, and my brother MIGHT be....I can't tell.
He'd never admit in a million years that he had made a mistake.
Don't assume that your ex's family has been thrilled with OW. They may have been thrilled with their break up, and may have hoped to God that you were to return. Imagine how their hopes were dashed when he told them the "good news"...
I cannot tell you how many holidays were negatively affected by having to meet another new person one of my single brothers was dating.
To this day, I miss my former SIL...and a part of me is always going to be disappointed in my brother for leaving her, even though she assures me she is happier.
These days my former SIL and her h, and my brother and his w2, are able to attend events for their daughter.
Last month my ex sil went to visit my niece in DC at her new job. My niece has been living with her dad, (my brother and his w2) and their baby girl.
My niece is there for a year internship. My x sil stayed with them! And it went well.p
That may be unusual but hey, I have seen it. It can happen.
And knowing my x sil is happier, helps me a lot.
You will get there too. With or without your h.
But try not to be so hurt that your mil "accepted" OW into her home. It's not that she accepted her, it's that she is dealing with the reality that her son has made a bad choice and your mil is stuck with it.
That's how my mom and siblings see my older brother's choices...we just do our best not to have a scene and to "welcome" the new person.
I actually feel a sense of loss at times, even now. So do my sisters.
I bet no one at your MIL's house was "Happy" to see OW and NOT see you.
No wonder she brought presents for your kids...
Your in laws miss you and they have to hide it from OW and to an extent, from their son/brother.
IMO, there's No way did they not think of you and miss you. NO way.
They have their own loss to face b/c of your h's choices. Just another dimension of the damage done b/c when a divorce happens and families are re arranged, there are more than just two parents who get affected.
Well, enough said. Back to YOU and some GAL...we're working on it!
((( )))
K_G,
Our Hs are working to the same script - timelines are similar, and family dinners have recently resumed (on his invitation) in the last month in my case too. And OW is still on the scene.
Resumption was short-lived however, as XH seemed to find it too hard to deal with, and cracked - BIG TIME.
So, setbacks and conflict are still the modal form of interaction for us, too.
Like you, I found MIL's apparent acceptance of OW at family gatherings to be like another betrayal.
But reading 25's post about what it's like from the family's perspective made me realise that they have little choice.
25's words really helped me come to terms with this aspect of the whole mess.
I so hope it helps you too.
Dim is good; don't get sucked back in too soon.
Hi friends,
I have not posted for a while...
Thanksgiving came and went. And even though there were a couple of tough days, I overcame them faster and easier than before. I take that as yet another positive sign that I am healing. And so I am grateful for that.
And life is back to normal, which in my case, is full speed.
I have been super busy, but in a good way.
Before DB (and part of the reason why I found myself here), I had a full plate and a longer list than I could tackle. I wanted to be a great mom, a great wife, friend, daughter, sister, professionist - everything. And so something had to give and it was my marriage...
This time, I am being very aware and very present IN THE MOMENT. The most important part, is that I am choosing how to spend my time. I am prioritizing and making decisions that are good for ME and my kids.
It has been amazing. I enjoy the people I am with, I do things better and it keeps my focus away of negative thoughts. I like staying busy (and how can you not with three young ones to support and a full-time job?) Yet I make sure not to overdo it and to remain true to my life priorities (which I was not doing before). I make sure my actions match my values and I am overall much happier.
I am getting ready for a trip to my home country with the kids. We have not been there in two years (due to financial reasons) and so I am proud that I saved enough to make it happen. We will be surrounded by all people who love us, who will pameper us and my kids will have 10 wonderful days filled with fun and friends and cousins and aunts and uncles. We get together for Xmas every other year, gathering between 40-50 people on Xmas eve... All the people I grew up with and which make me feel loved and valued.
It will be AMAZING!
So I probably won't be logging in much until after the new year,
but I want to send everyone a huge hug and wish everyone the best for this holiday season, with one wish: make the best of it.
My H dropped the bomb and left on December 23rd of 2010. Yes, just the day before Xmas eve. I don't remember hardly anything of that holiday. I just have this image of me sitting at my parents' living room, looking out at nothing, like a zombie. I cannot even remember what the girls were doing (and I was just 9 weeks pregnant with my son at the time).
I thought I'd never be able to smile again, enjoy Xmas or any other holiday for that matter and I literally didn't see a point to continue.
Yet look at me now...
So my point? Even the deepest well has a way out, even the strongest pain will start to diminish - IF YOU CHOOSE TO.
Early on I read one of the vets post "I am grateful this happened to me" and I almost threw up. I thought I'd NEVER be able to say that.
Yet, now I have to say that I am also grateful for this most painful experience. Why? Because sadly I realize now that if something this big and definite and painful and devastating had not happened to me, I would have never woken up to how messed up I was and how angry and hurt I was and how so out of control my life was... Do I wish I didn't lose my H? You bet - I still love him like I did 20 yrs. ago, but I don't know that anything else would have shaken me enough to change. Yes, life dishes painful lessons, but without them, we would not be able to appreciate the happy moments and make good choices for ourselves.
Yes, this experience has and continues to be brutal in so many ways, yet it is AN OPPORTUNITY to exercise CHOICE and CHANGE and BE IN CONTROL of our lives.
And so I CHOOSE to do so. Happy Holidays!!
You, my dear friend, are awesome. I'm so happy you're going to get to be with our family and be held in the arms of love.
Enjoy, enjoy, enjoy!
KG, I love your post today and it came at a great time for me, when I needed to be inspired. Your trip and holiday celebration sounds wonderful, enjoy!!
So glad you are doing well. I feel the same way about my priorities and busyness I just couldnt verbalize it.
Just knowing who I am has made a subtle but measurable difference in how I carry myself throughout my life.
We are so lucky to have great & healthy kids and a loving family.
KG I am so happy to read your posts. Your strength gives me strength. I fell I know you so well. Such similar feelings. I wish you and your family a wonderful holiday filled with love and peace. Love you
^^^what they said kg
you are inspiring so many, including me.looking forward to hearing how the trip goes!
First, I'm so sorry I'm barely reading up on your thread. I've kept myself away from the forum as well and each time I come back I feel rather lost with all the new names. It was such a nice surprise to see your name on the first page ;-)
I'm sending you many hugs to you and and your beautiful children, to your family. I hope you ring in the new year running up a flight of stairs with a luggage, eating grapes, lentils in your pocket, opening and closing the door, whatever your family does to bring you a better 2014.
I think the plus to BD being at the end of the year is you can easily compare each year. I look back at Dec 2011 and remember thinking I had DB'ed my heart out. Little did I know...
I can't wait for you to get back and I hope we can meet up soon.
XOXO
If u are going where I think u are it is very hot. My mom said it's the worst heat wave ever. Enjoy the empanadas, the family and the holidays. Un abrazo hermana
KG...
I love reading your posts, and you are superwoman for getting to this place emotionally, mentally in your life.
Being amazing never lies without, it lies within. You are amazing
Dear, dear friends - HAPPY NEW YEAR!
I am back and happy to see so many posts from people I have come to care for deeply.
The trip and holidays went by soooo fast...
Before I left I received phone calls and gifts from MIL and three of my SILs. I had been feeling lately like they perhaps were pulling away since OW is now attending family functions, but it was really nice to have them all reach out and show me they still care. I am so lucky!
The trip was a great experience. Amazing for the kids to spend time with all the cousins and connect and good for me as well. I think what I have learned here and thru other sources and reading is helping me see things differently in other R. Like my family...
I realize how dysfunctional some of our family dynamics are and I had to practice (a lot) to set some healthy boundaries. My relatives are all filled with love and good intentions, but want to control and decide things for others. Since I am visiting, they all want to take us places and determine how we spend our time there. I used to just say yes, go along and then become resentful for not doing or saying what I really wanted.
(Hmmm... I wonder who I know like that - lol... It's like I was looking in the mirror!)
At first I failed miserably, falling into old patterns of unhealthy reactions on my part. Yet the difference is that I recognized them right away and was able to change course and establish some boundary-setting actions - sometimes. So I was able to change some interactions and felt good about it. Other times I was able to recognize that people don't change and that it's sometimes better (and easier) to let go when things are not that important.
I am now back and trying to get ready for the new year.
There are many important things going on for me this year.
H and I are looking into schools for next year for D6 and D5. Still at odds as to what we want. I want them to go to private school and am willing to make financial sacrifices for it. H isn't. So since I cannot afford to pay for it all by myself, if we don't get financial aid (I am applying for it), then they will end up in public school.
I am dealing with letting go of that dream. Part of our process in this journey is exactly that. Accepting our reality and how what we thought for our future is not so anymore. Financially I thought that losing our dream home would be the most devastating, but I am finding that it's not so.
Actually the school issue has proven more difficult for me. I went to a private school thru high school in my native country. My experience and learning there opened so many doors for me. I believe that having such a strong foundation is what allowed me to go to a top university in the US (as a foreigner) and what allows me today to have a job and career that lets me support my kids and provide a good life w/o my H's help. So yes, I am partial to private education and it's been hard to let go of that dream for my kids, specially since my H used to share it too, but doesn't anymore. So I am doing everything I can to see if I can get financial aid and if it doesn't work out, I am working on being ok with the outcome. It's been a slow process, but I am getting there.
I also have to do my taxes - first time filing on my own and that will need to bring up some difficult conversations with H, since we will need to negotiate deductions. So invariably it will lead to D negotiations, since this is part of the big picture. Not my choice to bring up any of this, but I have to file taxes early for the school applications.
Nothing has really happened on the D front since H filed on Sept. of 2011. He mentioned to me some months ago that he was waiting because I had asked and because he wanted me to get a job and be financially stable. I guess we are there now, so with the new year I expect him to re-focus on the D again. Apart from the taxes, I am not pro-actively doing anything about the D (I still don't want it). I will wait for him (or his L) to send me his proposal and then I will meet with my L and respond accordingly. In the meantime, I am busy with my life and my kids.
I have to come up with a new financial plan for 2014 and long term. Once I know what happens to the kids' schools, I will be able to make a new budget and make a serious savings plan. I want to make sure I don't become a burden for my kids in my old age and since all our savings and financial plans are gone, I need to start pretty much from scratch. Not ideal at 42, but better late than never. Not worrying too much about it, but I do want to be pro-active.
I also need to look at moving. I love where I live and it's ideal for the kids, but if the kids end up being accepted to private school (with aid), I will need to move to a cheaper place, and if they end up going to public school, I want to move to the other side of town because I like that public school better than the one I am in. So that will also keep me busy in the Spring.
I also need to enroll the girls in swim lessons -they are close to learning and I want to make sure they know by the summer. We live near the ocean and I think it's a life-skill they need to learn. Also looking into t-ball or gymnastics. I will have to figure out logistics - who will take them, since both H and I work. So lots to figure out and see if it's possible. If not, not a big deal.
I am also determined to work on my health. I have a new plan - use my lunch break at work to go on a 1-hr. walk. That is the only time I can realistically exercise. I also need to change my eating habits. I realize diets are not for me and that people who look great and are healthy don't really diet. They just have good eating habits. I have read that it takes 20-30 days to change a bad habit, so I have made a list of the things I need to change and will tackle one at a time; starting with drinking 8 glasses of water a day. That will be habit #1 and I will go from there. We'll see how that works.
So these are my immediate tasks for the new year. Apart from that, I will continue to focus on my personal growth and working on improving myself. I read in someone's thread about making a list. I think I need to get that specific at this point. My list wil still be very, very long - lol...
I hope everyone is having a great beginning of the year. Sorry for the long post. I don't know if I'll ever get better at that so thanks for reading!
Are you kidding? I love reading your posts! You sound so great, I'm almost in tears reading this.
YOU inspire me.
KG, sounds like you're doing great and have some excellent plans in place for the New Year
Regarding this comment:
"I also need to change my eating habits. I realize diets are not for me and that people who look great and are healthy don't really diet. They just have good eating habits."
My W has always struggled with her weight and has been on many diets. I went on them with her mainly to support her but to lose a few pounds myself. The best diet we ever did wasn't really a diet so much as a retraining of eating habits. I can't for the life of me remember what it was called, I tried Google and couldn't locate it either. But basically you didn't change WHAT you eat, but HOW you eat. Things like always leaving some on the plate to override that instinct to eat everything, and if you have say enchiladas, rice and beans and you normally eat the beans and rice first and save the enchiladas as a "reward" then don't do that. Eat your favorite first, then your 2nd favorite next and as you work down when you get full you won't want to keep eating because you're past your favorite anyway. It also taught to eat slower, because the stomach sends signals to the brain with a delay so if you eat slower you won't overeat as much before your stomach says "enough". You've probably noticed that when you get full you feel REALLY full, that's because we eat too fast. Also your body sends the same signals for hunger and thirst, so in the morning if you feel hungry you're probably really just dehydrated from sleeping overnight. So if you feel hungry in the morning you're supposed to drink 32 oz of water. You'd be surprised at how the hunger pangs go away when you do that. Anyway, it was all kinds of tips like that. We did the diet probably 10 years ago and I still follow many of the high points of it, and I've never felt like I was missing out on anything like you feel on traditional diets. I'll try to figure out what diet it was and post the info here.
great post! I really learned a lot form reading it. You are doing very well.
So great to read your update KG! I'm so glad you had us a wonderful time.
My love to you and your family.
hi KG,
your post made me smile.. so wonderful to hear you sounding so great dear friend… i am always so inspired by you and your journey.. thank you for sharing it.
i especially loved that you were able to use your new self awareness during your trip.. and recognize and appreciate your growth (bc i know you are such a high achiever and can be so so hard on yourself dear friend)
(((((((((((((((KG)))))))))))))))))
KG...what a great post!!
Thanks!! About the private school, you're their mom. I know that if you feel the public school is lacking you will make up for that.
As a teacher, it is the parents, the kids, then the school!!
You are awesome
Hey KG! Good luck with the new habits. Its a great way to start (get use to going to the bathroom more often!).
Have fun with swim lessons. I was the last of 3 and missed out on that somehow. Both my kids had lessons and even joined a swim team when they got a little older. Its good knowing they can handle themselves in water (much better than I can).
Enjoy your new year!
Oh KG
Welcome back! And Happy New Year! Like NG said, it's great hearing how you incorporated your "marital" changes into all of you. Those are real changes! Yay YOU.
The swimming skill, yes it's huge. We bought a house with a pool and had our older kids take lessons and we were always with them. But with our youngest we had a pool and there was a school that specialized in teaching LITTLE kids to swim. Our d was then 3 (there were smaller kids there too, seriously. Like barely walking at all) and we had to hide out of sight and promise not to interfere. Scary, but it works. She is not afraid of water either.
And at the end, they tested the kids by a "surprise fall" into the water (as if someone had pushed them or they had stumbled) and the kids knew to first get to the surface, look for the nearest wall and paddle on over while keeping their heads up. It wasn't about teaching them to swim fast, or the backstroke, but how to float and swim and how to live. Absolutely a life skill. Good for you.
The private schools...I'm 6 of 9, and the first 4 went to private school up to high school and then switched over to the public high school, which had a good reputation and was a lot cheaper, obviously...The rest of us started ad finished in public schools in a good area.
Those who spent their first 8 years in private schools did, I have to say, WORSE than the rest of us. I think they had pent up "recreational" demands when they hit high school maybe or felt so far ahead they got bored??? But their grades were noticeably worse than the younger bunch.
My point is that I think a private school later on, matters more than the lower grades, in most places. BUT...
Let's not borrow problems from tomorrow. You will be an involved mother no matter where they go, for the first several years.
Later on, well, we will get to that, LATER on....
I love your simple achievable healthy goals. I'm a big one for having two bottles of water a day, (32 oz) and I do think it helps me stay healthy and not become a total slob. Also good for the skin!
When my leg heals all the way, I'll be exercising in more "wholistic" ways. So Next time we do a hike at the beach, it won't make us all breathe quite as hard!
KG, you are doing well. Truly.
You are such a strong example of "I am Woman, here me Roar!"
Though I do think Your h will see the tragedy of leaving a woman who no longer has the "issues" he felt were so important that he HAD to go...
I accept that we cannot know what that realization would look like or if it would create any change in his path. His pride, his other actions, might prevent any reversals...even if he does the thinking. You may not want who he might become, as a h either.
But my point is, unlike your h, I don't see you as having any regrets, from this day forward.
And KG, that "Regret Stopping", MATTERS!!
Your kids will know without a doubt that they are your great loves and priorities and that makes such a difference in our lives...knowing our mom's love us.
Abraham Lincoln said that despite deep poverty, and his mother's early death, he felt lucky having a mother and then a step mother who both loved him.
Growing up so poor, so scrappy just to survive, and then learning to read, etc...."ALL of whatever [he] became", he said he "owed to the two women who so made him feel loved."
You give that to your kids. And more.
((( )))
Happy Birthday KG!! I wish you many many happy returns. My love to you sister.
((((((((()))))))))
Is today your birthday?
All the best and many happy returns.
Any updates KG? Would love to hear from you