Old thread locked down and I had a couple of interesting things I wanted to document so we'll get a new one going.
Original Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...606#Post2250606Bootcamp Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2300360&page=1Last Thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2327042&page=1Summary of where we are:Married 15 yrs, 5 kids (one mine before marriage). Initial BD 2/2011, W filed 9/12, trial date set for 6/13. Last 6-8 months have been pretty awesome day to day, but W says she still doesn't feel any different about our past and wants to continue with D.
Multiple EAs on W's side, one where she continues to have regular contact. She agreed a few months ago not to talk to him or about him in our house, and only slipped on it a few times.
I've been working on insecurity, controlling behavior, being judgmental, being light hearted and fun and having a stronger faith. I feel really good about where I'm at, but there's still some deep seeded bad habits I have to watch out for, so I continue to work on it.
My issues concerning W:- Continued contact with OM
- W still wants D and believes that she can't truly be herself unless she has it
W's issues concerning me:- A lot of resentment for first 10 years of M and resistant to forgive
- Afraid of being disappointed again, so resistant to becoming vunerable
- Believes once she makes a decision she has to stick with it
My current plan:After our last discussion about D (a week ago), I felt like I needed to change gears. Great advice from Mach1 and when I read back thru my thread, I see that in November Denver was actually telling me the "plan A, plan B" thing:
Plan A - Get along with cheating spouse, show them legit changes, don't rock the boat, be kind and loving, be the person that the cheating spouse fell in love with... essentially be the rock... the lighthouse home.
Plan B - Take all of that away from the cheating spouse. No contact except for "bills and boys" as J3B coined it.
Honestly, it won't be as drastic as described above as we are still living in the same house and sleeping in the same bed, but I'm basically starting plan B. I have accepted that D is coming and decided that I will take a proactive approach. I will meet with my attorney in the next week or two and nail out the details of the D and start moving in that direction. I am not going to enter back into a relationship with W unless she wants it, and is willing to stop all contact with OM.
And with that....journaling these two tidbits:
1) Last night during work conversation, I asked if OM was involved. She said no, so I asked if she could cut contact completely at this point without impacting her business, and she said "yeah." So her excuses for OM contact are gone, yet they are still in contact daily. I think this is important...it's fully in her control now, there's no financial implications.
2) This morning W tells me, "if I get this deal, I'm going to take you to Vegas!" Prior to our last court date, this wouldn't have surprised me because of how well things seemed. But now, I have pulled back considerably...no touching, no hanging out, etc, so it's a little bit weird to hear that.
W's issues concerning me:
- A lot of resentment for first 10 years of M and resistant to forgive
- Afraid of being disappointed again, so resistant to becoming vunerable
- Believes once she makes a decision she has to stick with it
Wow, it sounds like your W and mine have the same "Big Book Of Reasons For Divorce". That's practically word for word what my W has told me as well. She repeated that last line often in MC, it was something of a mantra for her. That and "I don't want to try".
Old thread locked down and I had a couple of interesting things I wanted to document so we'll get a new one going.
W's issues concerning me:
- A lot of resentment for first 10 years of M and resistant to forgive
- Afraid of being disappointed again, so resistant to becoming vunerable
- Believes once she makes a decision she has to stick with it
Did she tell you that she has to stick with it or is that something you believe to be true?
My current plan:After our last discussion about D (a week ago), I felt like I needed to change gears. Great advice from Mach1 and when I read back thru my thread, I see that in November Denver was actually telling me the "plan A, plan B" thing:
Plan A - Get along with cheating spouse, show them legit changes, don't rock the boat, be kind and loving, be the person that the cheating spouse fell in love with... essentially be the rock... the lighthouse home.
Plan B - Take all of that away from the cheating spouse. No contact except for "bills and boys" as J3B coined it.
Honestly, it won't be as drastic as described above as we are still living in the same house and sleeping in the same bed, but I'm basically starting plan B. I have accepted that D is coming and decided that I will take a proactive approach. I will meet with my attorney in the next week or two and nail out the details of the D and start moving in that direction. I am not going to enter back into a relationship with W unless she wants it, and is willing to stop all contact with OM.
Honestly - I'm confused what A has to do with B. You should be able to do both. In fact, I would argue that you need both.
If you just do B - you are going to come across as a D!ck. It's not your place to show your w consequences.. life will do that.
If you need to do plan b to help you move forward - I can understand that, but you can still be loving in the process.
And with that....journaling these two tidbits:
1) Last night during work conversation, I asked if OM was involved. She said no, so I asked if she could cut contact completely at this point without impacting her business, and she said "yeah." So her excuses for OM contact are gone, yet they are still in contact daily. I think this is important...it's fully in her control now, there's no financial implications.
2) This morning W tells me, "if I get this deal, I'm going to take you to Vegas!" Prior to our last court date, this wouldn't have surprised me because of how well things seemed. But now, I have pulled back considerably...no touching, no hanging out, etc, so it's a little bit weird to hear that.
Okay so you asked #1 - how does that affect your actions moving forward?
And why is #2 weird? Seems like typical WAS spew to me.
W's issues concerning me:
- A lot of resentment for first 10 years of M and resistant to forgive
- Afraid of being disappointed again, so resistant to becoming vunerable
- Believes once she makes a decision she has to stick with it
Wow, it sounds like your W and mine have the same "Big Book Of Reasons For Divorce". That's practically word for word what my W has told me as well. She repeated that last line often in MC, it was something of a mantra for her. That and "I don't want to try".
Yeah, these are pretty much the same as I wrote in November. The only change is that I removed "people don't change." She actually changed her tune on that one.
I was kinda hoping your sitch would have gone better after retrouv since there are a lot of similarities...bums me out.
Did she tell you that she has to stick with it or is that something you believe to be true?
She's said it a number of times, though recently she just said "I don't feel any different." I think she might bend on this last point honestly, as she already changed her tune on "people don't change." But she's dug in pretty good on "I'm not going to get over it."
Honestly - I'm confused what A has to do with B. You should be able to do both. In fact, I would argue that you need both.
If you just do B - you are going to come across as a D!ck. It's not your place to show your w consequences.. life will do that.
If you need to do plan b to help you move forward - I can understand that, but you can still be loving in the process.
For the last 6-8 months, we have really behaved like newlyweds (in my mind...she assures me it isn't the same in hers). There are no fights, we hang out all the time, co-parent, ML a lot, laugh, go to events, etc etc. It's been everything I would want in a M, except the fact that she is still intent on getting D, and still is in contact with OM.
In the last two weeks I've pulled back. I'm not being a d!ck...a lot of it is still the same as it was. There's just a distance now. We are still functioning really well as parents, sharing chores, picking up kids, etc. She's still sharing stories and we're laughing...it's just less.
Okay so you asked #1 - how does that affect your actions moving forward?
It really doesn't...I didn't care how much potential income was tied to OM. It was a big deal for her though, and for her to admit there's really no business reason to talk to OM is new.
And why is #2 weird? Seems like typical WAS spew to me.
Yeah, probably nothing more than that. I guess with D on the horizon, I'm surprised she's still thinking "let's do stuff."
Yeah, these are pretty much the same as I wrote in November. The only change is that I removed "people don't change." She actually changed her tune on that one.
Oh right, I remember that now.
I was kinda hoping your sitch would have gone better after retrouv since there are a lot of similarities...bums me out.
Yeah, I really had high hopes right after, but I shouldn't have let expectations get the best of me! I sent W an email about a few tasks earlier today and also told her we should talk about "us" soon because I don't want to go on forever in this limbo and she agreed that we need to talk, so that may happen this weekend. Perhaps not the smartest DB strategy, but I'm honestly to the point of accepting the outcome no matter which way it goes but I'm not willing to accept an eternity of limbo.
W's issues concerning me:
- A lot of resentment for first 10 years of M and resistant to forgive
- Afraid of being disappointed again, so resistant to becoming vunerable
- Believes once she makes a decision she has to stick with it
Wow, it sounds like your W and mine have the same "Big Book Of Reasons For Divorce". That's practically word for word what my W has told me as well. She repeated that last line often in MC, it was something of a mantra for her. That and "I don't want to try".
Mine too. It is like she is waiting for me to do or say something from the old me (and inevitably I will) and then says, see you haven't changed and I can't trust you!
Mine too. It is like she is waiting for me to do or say something from the old me (and inevitably I will) and then says, see you haven't changed and I can't trust you!
It's actually worse than that. You don't have to do something from the old you, you just have to do something that
reminds them of the old you.
It's actually worse than that. You don't have to do something from the old you, you just have to do something that reminds them of the old you.
Then stop doing them.....Bonehead...
JP, they are gonna find buttons to push whenever they feel close again.
The trick is, is to learn from your mistakes, and know what those buttons are beforehand, so that you can remove all of the wiring that feeds the button....
It's actually worse than that. You don't have to do something from the old you, you just have to do something that reminds them of the old you.
Yes! That is what I should have wrote! That is true
Then stop doing them.....Bonehead...
JP, they are gonna find buttons to push whenever they feel close again.
The trick is, is to learn from your mistakes, and know what those buttons are beforehand, so that you can remove all of the wiring that feeds the button....
Very true! Might need to scrap current version and rebuild from ground up!
Woke up early this morning and managed to finish "Love Must Be Tough." It was a little one dimensional (focuses a lot on affairs), but definitely tied into my current mindset.
I found the discussion about mutual respect enlightening. It seems like common sense but I don't know that I ever looked at it quite that way before. For those who haven't read it, the basic idea is that if your spouse is disrespecting you (i.e. having an EA/PA), and you allow it, their respect for you continues to erode and therefore, so does their attraction to you.
My basic advice to Regret in her sitch was to "grow a backbone" and now I can see why I felt that way...definitely goes to respect. When my W did it, I actually became more attracted to her. I had more respect for her than I ever had, and therefore wanted it to work more than ever.
I've been in limbo for a long time now and I can see now that the reason why is that I wasn't ready to let go. I think you really do have to be ok with the M ending (i.e. opening the cage as Dobson called it). You really do have to love and respect yourself, and convey that to your partner.
Hi Breakdown,
Have been continuing to read up on you and your sitch despite my lack of posting. I find the way you handle your sitch with such dignity that it is inspiring. I don't have a lot to offer in terms of advice because our sitchs are not very similar.
The idea of growing a backbone and respect really resonates with me. I have been think a lot about that lately, especially after reading Tallula's recent updates. Something in me struck a chord.
I think I have been working a lot of lovingly detaching, but there is/was not a lot of bone in my back. And I think it has prevented me from truly letting go, in a loving matter. Its that d@mn fear. So even though I was very careful with my interactions with H and becoming the person I want to be, it was still coming from a place of fear and not strength in who I am and who I was and who I can be.
I agree with you that we need to love and respect ourselves first and foremost for ourselves, for our children and for all of our other Rs. When we do that, I think the rest will fall into place.
I hope all the best for you and your family Breakdown. And am with you in our quest to grow our backbones.
I found the discussion about mutual respect enlightening. It seems like common sense but I don't know that I ever looked at it quite that way before. For those who haven't read it, the basic idea is that if your spouse is disrespecting you (i.e. having an EA/PA), and you allow it, their respect for you continues to erode and therefore, so does their attraction to you.
My basic advice to Regret in her sitch was to "grow a backbone" and now I can see why I felt that way...definitely goes to respect. When my W did it, I actually became more attracted to her. I had more respect for her than I ever had, and therefore wanted it to work more than ever.
I've been in limbo for a long time now and I can see now that the reason why is that I wasn't ready to let go. I think you really do have to be ok with the M ending (i.e. opening the cage as Dobson called it). You really do have to love and respect yourself, and convey that to your partner.
Interesting thought here, of course we should grow a backbone, in hindsight it seems so obvious, however during the emotional period of the BD and for some many months after we feel guilty as heII. I think this guilt transforms into subservient attitudes, for me a little co-dependency thing going on as well. Nothing to bad but enough to almost stop me in my tracks. Keep the thought rolling, I like your thinking.
I agree Sub. We do enter this journey with a lot of guilt and, may I add, even shame. I was so embarrassed and felt like such a fool for what had happened in my M that I was apologetic for even breathing sometimes (!). I feel like I can start to "see" more objectively now that my H was not on a pedestal, it was me that put him on it. It made me feel like I was not 'good enough' for him.
Busting and Sub, thanks for the input...and I agree.
Sometimes I feel like I am swimming in the ocean and all this great input, whether thru books, IC, or from this forum is floating around. It all has it's place, and eventually it'll all come together, but a lot of times it just feels like you are staring at one piece and can't see the entire picture.
Fix me? Yes, definitely. Show W my changes? Check. GAL? Check. Enjoy the moment? Check. Forgive me...and W? Got it. Love me? Uh...ok. Stand up for myself? Uh...I was just figuring out how screwed up I was a minute ago...can I do that?
Certainly, there is a timeline where all these things fit...but unfortunately, the timeline is different for every single person so it's difficult to replicate for others.
I believe it is a process...looking back I'm happy with what I've done and the timeline I've done it in, but even with the progress I've made, even with the short term plans I've made, I still feel lost sometimes. I feel like I am on the right path now. I don't think my W can move forward until I let her go. But it is like sliding on the ice and someone telling you not to brake...it goes against your natural instinct.
I love my W with all my heart...she is my soulmate, if there is such a thing. Yet, thru this process, I find myself letting go....I don't want to, but I feel I have to. I feel that not only do I need to respect her and her beliefs, but I have to respect me and stop allowing her to do things I wouldn't accept in a new relationship. When I look back over the last few years and see the disrespect my W has treated me with, and I've accepted, it's appalling. My commitment to this M has overwritten my self-respect....to my detriment.
Respect and growing a backbone seems to be a recent theme. I've been hearing similar things for past couple weeks. It's a tough thing to change at times but I think it's what we all need to do. We have to respect ourselves before we can expect anyone else to respect us.
I have to respect me and stop allowing her to do things I wouldn't accept in a new relationship. When I look back over the last few years and see the disrespect my W has treated me with, and I've accepted, it's appalling. My commitment to this M has overwritten my self-respect....to my detriment.
It still shocks me we're so similar. I can't believe some of the things I've accepted either in my M. I'm glad we're both seeing this and we're getting our respect back. I think I was referred to as an enabling master cake baker.
Stay strong buddy and stay the course in regards to DBing (continuing to work on you). You sound good..
It's so hard to grow that dang backbone!!!
I really relate to putting up with things I would absolutely not put up with in a new R. Right now it's become easier with my H. But now it's the rest of the world... All this dang growth I'm having to do. Boo hiss!
It's so hard to grow that dang backbone!!!
All this dang growth I'm having to do. Boo hiss!
hahahaha you make me smile tallula
Again, self respect keeps coming up...:)
Just posted on my decision, and it had to do with my self respect as well
I feel good about it and obviously we always have trepidation about defining boundaries, especially those of us who have controlled our whole lives. Will our spouses see it as another control issue? So, we grapple with that as well, at least I do.
but I have to respect me and stop allowing her to do things I wouldn't accept in a new relationship.
What are these things, BD?
but I have to respect me and stop allowing her to do things I wouldn't accept in a new relationship.
What are these things, BD?
Honestly, most of the things I found disrespectful she stopped last summer. But the one that remains is a pretty big one...continued contact with OM.
So far, I've followed the advice of my DB coaches:
- don't worry about OM for now
- continue working on me
- take the time until court and make it awesome
As I look back over the last 7-8 months, I think it's fair to say I've done a pretty good job for the most part in following this advice.
In my last coaching session, we agreed to continue enjoying the moment until court, and if W continued to press for D, then change gears and start detaching, start doing more GAL, create more mystery, be less available, etc. I think Mach1 has been telling me the same thing as well.
I think that's what I'm doing now, but I also think it's time to take a stronger stance on the OM. He is a deal breaker for me and it's time I started acting like it.
He is a deal breaker for me and it's time I started acting like it.
Dealbreaker...
As in past behaviors ?
Current behaviors ?
Or future behaviors ????
I see you taking that turn that you have been looking for..
Just a word of caution. Remember to use that anger as a shield, and not as a sword.
It would be a beotch to take that turn, with your sword out, and YOU fall on it...
Clear as your Unicorn and Rainbow, black light poster ????
For what it's worth I think you're doing the right thing.
Has your W thought she could really lose you these last 6-7 months? Especially with regards to OM?
Dealbreaker...
As in past behaviors ?
Current behaviors ?
Or future behaviors ????
As long as she chooses to have a relationship with OM, I'm unavailable. There's no punishment intended here, no concern with the past, just a boundary for me.
Just a word of caution. Remember to use that anger as a shield, and not as a sword.
An excellent reminder.
Has your W thought she could really lose you these last 6-7 months? Especially with regards to OM?
Nope. How can you really show someone they can lose you if you aren't ready to let go of them?
Has your W thought she could really lose you these last 6-7 months? Especially with regards to OM?
Nope. How can you really show someone they can lose you if you aren't ready to let go of them?
I tent to agree with this. Regardless of all the GAL, I too see it hard that my W would see that she could really loose me, as I know I don't want to loose her, and in that it must show to her.
Nope. How can you really show someone they can lose you if you aren't ready to let go of them?
I have been following your stich Breakdown. I don’t think I can speak from any experience that is relevant as I am new but it seems to me you have come a long away and either way, you are a better person now and will continue to improve for yourself. It takes a real man/woman to see the bigger picture and plan for it. I hope I have the same stamina as you. I just hope by the end I don’t look back and regret the disrespect I am feeling. I hope you great luck on whatever you do!
Can't do Plan B at the same time as Plan A. Plan B follows a good time of doing Plan A.
Journal:
Not much to update...plan B is difficult. First couple of weeks weren't bad, but then W started closing the distance between us. It's difficult trying to balance respecting myself and my boundaries and wanting to be close to W. I find myself making excuses...as long as she is initiating, as long as I have no expectations, etc etc. That said, things are pretty good on the homefront.
Last night I went out to listen to some music and when I got home (W had called multiple times), W admitted that she was actually jealous. She had gone to dinner with a girlfriend, but she didn't like the idea that I was out having a good time without her. Nice that she's taking notice.
I meet with my attorney tomorrow morning to bang out our D agreement and have decided to take the day off and do some fun things for me afterwards. All you can eat sushi lunch sounds like a good idea
On the GAL front, I'm almost half way thru the Body Beast program. My shirts are getting tighter and I'm feeling and looking pretty good. I signed up to do Tough Mudder with a buddy of mine in the fall and am probably going to start training for a half marathon with SIL in the coming weeks. I made a batch of mead with my brother this weekend...first time in over a year, so that's goodness.
Interesting weekend coming up...W has her mom and best friend (with little ones) coming to the house to die eggs. MIL has never really liked me much, but W's BFF and I connected around x-mas and she was impressed with all my changes. I plan on sticking around just long enough for them to miss me and then disappear to a bday party in the early evening.
I'm in a similar emotional place. We arn't in the D process, and a month and a half into S, but my H is really pulling the cake eating card. Romancing me AND OW.
Unfortunately he has really responded to my pulling back. I still have stayed pulled back, even though I ML with him friday night. That's definately not happening again unless OW is out of the picture. But, I do feel that he has never felt that I would actually move on yet. He knows that I will be fine, and am ok with it ending, but not that I am actually more convinced that we will not get back together...which I am.
I don't plan to tell him this, I am just going to take a much stronger stance on OW. No more family time, as dark as I can get. Still kind, but limited contact.
Good luck with this weekend!!
I'm going to steal this from Joel Osteen today as I think it's relevant to where I'm at, and good advice for all:
If you are currently in a storm, God is saying, “Rise above it. Quit fighting. Quit trying to change things that only I can change.Trust in Me."
For what it's worth I think you're doing the right thing.
Has your W thought she could really lose you these last 6-7 months? Especially with regards to OM?
BTW Spartan, is was this that led me to my current place... Thanks
Journal:
Not much to update...plan B is difficult. First couple of weeks weren't bad, but then W started closing the distance between us. It's difficult trying to balance respecting myself and my boundaries and wanting to be close to W. I find myself making excuses...as long as she is initiating, as long as I have no expectations, etc etc. That said, things are pretty good on .
I have this t shirt lol! It s currently up for sale on Craig's list with The hamster wheel I bought off of PON......
do not buy this shirt.....
I'm going to steal this from Joel Osteen today as I think it's relevant to where I'm at, and good advice for all:
If you are currently in a storm, God is saying, “Rise above it. Quit fighting. Quit trying to change things that only I can change.Trust in Me."
Oh, I just wrote this down. I will read it. Every. Day!
I just wanted to note, I made real coffee this morning and I really didn't enjoy it. I guess it's back to monkey poo tomorrow. :p
I just wanted to note, I made real coffee this morning and I really didn't enjoy it. I guess it's back to monkey poo tomorrow. :p
Shocker....
: )
I just wanted to note, I made real coffee this morning and I really didn't enjoy it. I guess it's back to monkey poo tomorrow. :p
nectar of the gods...
Been a while since I posted a status, but I saw my attorney this morning so I figure I probably should post something.
As far as Plan B goes, still sucking at it. I think I can safely say I have not truly implemented.
Day to day, things are about the same....really good for the most part.
We've had quite a few stressors this past week....most of it related to S18. He has been making some poor choices, and with college (and student loans) on the horizon, he's scaring the crap out of W and I.
I have really been angry with him...more angry than I've been in a long long time so I've had to spend some time thinking about why. I think a lot of it is because some of the things I didn't like about myself, he's making me take a look at again. For instance, I have done a lot of work on being controlling and given his behavior, I've had to start being "controlling," although from a parenting perspective instead of spousal. All the monitoring him, enforcing rules, etc....not fun stuff. Logically, I don't think I'm being controlling...but there's a feeling that comes with it that I really do not like.
W's behavior has been mostly the same, but I am seeing slight positives. She's started kissing me bye sometimes, telling me she loves me occasionally, even telling me she's jealous when I have fun without her. I took my sister to dinner a week or so ago and I got "how come you never ask me to dinner?" Then, a couple of days ago she asked me to go to lunch which we haven't done in ages. Could just be distance / pursuit dynamic, but maybe not.
Attorney meeting went ok this AM. We basically drafted my initial response and the only thing I didn't like was I wasn't able to deny the claim that the marriage is broken. Based on my state's rules, it doesn't really matter much, but I wanted to make the point. But making that point would have put me on a different path than presenting the settlement agreement, which I deem as more important at this point. I expect we'll finish that this week and send over to her attorney next week, so it will be interesting to see if W decides to discuss it, sign it, or ignore it.
On the GAL front, I'm 8 weeks into Body Beast and am seeing good results, golf league started last week, and I'm still hanging with my sister and brothers occasionally. A buddy of mine wants me to check out Crossfit, so I might do that, though I'm leaning more towards doing Hash runs (for those who don't know, "A hash is a run with beer at the beginning, middle, and end.")
Good to hear from you again, was just thinking about your sitch yesterday. Good luck with S18, more stress is just what you need right?
I've heard good things about Crossfit but the Hash run does sound more fun.
Hash run, I've always maintained that if they put a liquor store every couple of clicks I would finish a heck of a lot faster.....
"Controlling" a child and controlling a spouse are two very different things. I can see why though, it brings back a bad taste. What kind of poor decisions? Out of character decisions? If so, you have to ask yourself what else is going on? Could be that it is all becoming real for him. 18 is still a baby, psychologically his brain still has another 7 or 8 years before he is fully capable of stopping the "That looks like a good idea, why not?" impulse.
Do any of these poor choices have dire consequences? Is he just scared maybe that he is growing up?
Interesting evening. First "fight" we've had in a long time.
I will say, W is under a lot of stress. There's a number of things in play here and I understand her frustration....but it's all "external" stuff, so taking it out on the family is crap.
Start my day off by getting new paperwork from her attorney...asking all sorts of questions and wanting all our financials. Yay me! So I wasn't in a great mood myself really, and honestly, my work is pretty stressful right now too.
W comes home, makes some jokes, tells me more shitty news regarding her work and such. I mentioned the attorney papers and she bails to makes dinner. I worked out. When I finish, W is 4-5 beers in and dropping F bombs like they are going out of style. I'm pretty foul mouthed myself, but every 3rd word even seems excessive to me. I ask her to tone it down, she gets irate, but settles down.
Then S13 says something in jest about making a robot that would punch his mom in the face. I realize that sounds bad, but it really was in fun and she plays with them like that, so I didn't think anything of it. She did....and proceeded to flip out.
Eventually I dismissed the kids and then W decided she'd take it out on me. She said the most hateful things....ranging from D papers, to wanting me dead, to insinuating she screwed around on me. There was talk about how much of an @sshole I was for "10 years" and she went on and on about how I wouldn't stand for S13 to say such a thing about my "next girlfriend"...just dumb. At one point, I did tell her to shut up (I know...I blew a fuse for a split second), but after that, I just settled in and said "ok" to everything. She told me I wasn't a man, I was Mr. Passive now, etc, etc.
I realized after the "shut up" comment that she was pressing buttons....and moving quickly from one to the next to try to get a response. When she got none, she started throwing [censored]....broke my favorite cutting board...that's shitty.
I did try to defuse it multiple times before it got out of hand, but she wasn't having that. I even told her once that I thought all her work related stress was what this was about, but again, that didn't work. At one point she told me she didn't want anything from me but to be D'd and to give her what she wants. Her last ditch effort to piss me off was saying "don't get in 'my bed' tonight" to which I responded, "it's mine too." She said some other things after, which honestly, are making me consider the guest room.
Will be interesting to see how she reacts next week when she gets my settlement offer. I'm kinda hoping she signs it at this point. I want off the crazy train.
Oh man. I am sorry. Sounds like she's having second thoughts and so is behaving badly in order to convince herself that this is what she really wants. What do you think? How can she say she loves you but still want D??
Hey girl! Where you been!
Oh man. I am sorry. Sounds like she's having second thoughts and so is behaving badly in order to convince herself that this is what she really wants. What do you think? How can she say she loves you but still want D??
She actually tried to apologize this morning, so I think it was more the booze and stress than anything else, but to repeat what she's told me time and time again, "those thoughts must be in there somewhere."
And I don't understand the ILUs and standing by D any more than anyone else....it's confusing. Luckily, I don't read anything into anything she does these days, so I'm really only confused if I stop and think about it
I'm pushing forward at this point...I'm not waiting for her to decide what she wants. History has shown that she doesn't know.
I've been struggling the last few days so have been absent from the boards. Things have blown up here and I'm still trying to wrap my hands around it.
I found, completely on accident, that my W has been sending OM self pics of her in short skirts, and sleepwear. Some were from early last week and some as far back as December. Also found evidence that they were together in Chicago in October, so I'm almost certain this has been PA.
I honestly thought she was past OM...sure, still confused about what she wants for us, but I just didn't see this. She played on my insecurities and I fell right into it. At every suspicious thing, she blamed my insecurity, and as I worked thru my issues, I began to do the same....I wanted to believe her, and so I chose to.
I was already headed towards getting her a settlement agreement this week, so this really hasn't changed the "big stuff" with the exception that my intentions not so much to give her freedom, but to give it to myself.
Day to day has gone from awesome to crap. She seems to be going about things like everything's normal, but I am so angry and hurt, I can barely speak to her. She's in the spare bedroom now and I plan to get her completely out of the MBR in the next week, clothes and all.
Really looking forward to my workout today....I may have to add in some running to keep my head straight.
We've hashed thru most of the D details at this point. I'm not thrilled with it, but I will stand for this M and what it is supposed to mean (and a 3rd person isn't included!). I suspect we'll close this whole deal out in the next week or two.
I've barely been talking to W since I discovered this stuff, and today, while discussing assets, she says "I just want to be in a place where you aren't angry at me." And I said, "Do you think that's going to happen after we divide assets?!"
I can only shake my head. The awesome woman I married, who I thought had turned back up last year, is still lost. I wished I had really seen it, but she has done a superb job acting as if.
I'm pretty sad...and hurt. I've had a lot of anger the last few days but am focusing on forgiving her and moving forward. She really has been awesome for most of our M...I just didn't see it, and didn't appreciate it. Hopefully someday she'll feel the same of me.
For now, we'll part ways and in the back of my mind, I'll hope that we someday cross paths again.
Sorry to hear this, Breakdown. That must have been very hard and hurtful when you found the pics. I hope that you are able to work through the details with her.
It's very easy for us to look back and say that we didn't appreciate what our spouses were while we thought we were happily married, do don't beat yourself up too bad.
I hope that your kids hold up during all of this.
Thanks Hopeful. I appreciate it.
I still have hope. Hope that down the road W figures out her issues and stops seeing our time together as all negative. Hope that my kids aren't affected by our D like I was my parents'. Hope that she finds happiness, and so do I. And hope that it might, just might, be with each other again.
Until then, I'll put it in God's hands and keep pushing forward.
Thoughts and prayers with you Breakdown
Warm wishes and prayers for you BD. this is all crap. Our W's say the same stuff.
Her line: "I just want to be in a place where you aren't angry at me."
This is very, very self serving. Cake eating. Accepting this statement is saying okay to selfishness. Don't even acknowledge stuff like that. Validating someone's feelings is one thing, but validating selfishness....nah.
Look after yourself pal. I am learning that now. Maybe late in the game, but not too late.
Thanks Floyd.
I'm a little worried about W. She seems like two totally different people. Most of the time, she is the woman I've known for most of my life and then with OM, she seems to turn into someone else. Perhaps it's just the fog of the affair.
I'm still struggling with where we are. I'm trying to get D paperwork done ASAP because we're both all over the place emotionally and I think it'll provide some stability.
I think I've pulled myself out of the weeds tonight. I thought long and hard about exposing her affair as she is telling everyone I'm crazy. But I've got to rise above that and be true to me, regardless of her actions. I want to put my anger away so I can work thru the hurt and really let her go.
I'm still struggling with where we are. I'm trying to get D paperwork done ASAP because we're both all over the place emotionally and I think it'll provide some stability.
I can completely relate to these thoughts and I think I've reached the same place, among other things. We've been all over the board since BD, and I see that continuing.
You are doing the right thing by taking the high road. Exposing the affair would be stooping to her level. I totally understand wanting people to not think you are crazy. My H has told the world that I'm a b!tch, crazy, the worst person on 2 feet, and now, probably a thief. Human reaction is to defend yourself.
In AlAnon, I've learned that I cannot control what other people think about me. On some level, I really don't care because I know who I am and I know the truth. And those that know me know the truth.
As much of a struggle as it is, you sound like you are making progress and moving forward to a good place.
i have felt the desire to announce to everyone about H and OW(s). But in the end, it always comes down to the fact that exposing him may hurt him in the eyes of his friends and family.. but it doesn't the diminish the pain i feel.. it doesn't change his actions.. it doesn't change things between H and i. that brief moment of satisfaction would probably be followed by remorse that i possibly put a huge wedge between him and his parents for much longer then i felt justified.
i'm not really sure where i'm going with this. lol. it's late..
BD you are some kind of strong
She is two different people. it sadly needs to be her conclusing of her mixed up life right now...like an alcoholic. I struggled with hiding xW wife affairs and 3 therapists (Including 2 we saw) wonder what the heck I protect her for. It hurts us to protect them and is the only reason they feign the niceties. Hence her fake statements of you hope to be friends and you or be angry. She is controlling your emotion and your ability to detach. I have since let certain people know, and not to turn them against her but, rather protect myself as suggested by psych and lawyer and friends and family thatu know. People were accusing me of being the one that strayed and did wrong so only people that bring that up, I correct them. I have been blessed with so much Support and a weight has been lifted off. It is not my shame as I was taking it all in as such. It is damaging as psych says and psych also explained that it will free me of any guilt I harbour inside that is misguided. It has worked. Protecting her will only enable her to excuse the behaviour and validate it. Just don't expect her back if you do. It has liberating me a bit and psych is proud of me for knowing my boundaries and not be held hostage to her misdeeds. Taking all the blame is not healthy. My xW has done the same about telling people I am crazy. That is not fair and is bullying. just tell the truth without slamming her and let those make their own opinions after.
As much of a struggle as it is, you sound like you are making progress and moving forward to a good place.
Thanks Hopeful. It's a process and I understand I'm going to have to work thru the feelings as part of that. I know I'll end up in a good place as I have grown an awful lot. But these days are the hardest.
BD you are some kind of strong
Hah! I don't feel strong at all. I feel like I'm losing my grip on sanity most days here lately.
More and more is unfolding. As good as the last 8-9 months have been from my perspective, W was seeing OM still and was just biding her time until the house sells. She's been running a double life to a point. She simply says "I have an evening appt for work" and then goes with OM. He seems to be separated from his W now, so they are spending a lot of time at his house. It's like trying to understand crazy....there's just no sense to most of it, so I'm trying not to think about it.
That said, we did have about an hour discussion this morning about moving forward. We talked about expectations regarding being home for the kids and at one point I said, "if you want to set up a schedule that works for the kids and allows you to see OM, I'd rather do that than have the disappearing act." She started to tell me I was crazy and I just said, "stop...there's no need any longer. I don't like your choices, but I'll support them."
I think we established a path forward. I said I wanted some consistency for the kids and D asap. We discussed some of the in and outs, but didn't really disagree on anything. We dropped the price of the house 10k and hashed thru most of the remaining household stuff.
There's definitely going to be some wake up calls. It's a little weird that she filed last July, has been seeing OM for at least 18 months, and she really has no exit plan. She is talking about moving in with her brother for the short term. No longer my problems, so I just nod my head. I guess it makes as much sense as the rest of it lol
Stay strong buddy and don't veer off your path. Be who you want to be and don't stoop to her level on anything.
Dignity, honor, and grace...accept nothing less of yourself
BD...
You already know what I think...
And I will reiterate it here....
The only way to do this, is through this....
And damm my fingers for typing this one....
But Spartan is right...
Dignity, Honor , and Grace my friend.
All of that work from your Bootcamp thread is not wasted.
None of this is wasted time.
It has, and will, make you a better, stronger, faster Six-Million Dollar Breakdown ( although you probably won't see any of that money).
Who knows what the future holds buddy...
Stay YOUR course for now....
Never going to hear the end of that...
Dignity, Honor , and Grace my friend.
Absolutely. I keep telling myself that to keep from falling into the mud with W. I have to accept what is, and keep my kids at the forefront of my mind.
All of that work from your Bootcamp thread is not wasted.
None of this is wasted time.
It has, and will, make you a better, stronger, faster Six-Million Dollar Breakdown ( although you probably won't see any of that money).
Though I am extremely hurt by my W's actions, I have thanked her on many occasions, even yesterday in this middle of this storm....for helping me find me. Her behavior pushed me to face my own demons, to become a better person. Even though she didn't do it intentionally, she did help get me started.
Who knows what the future holds buddy...
I agree! I'm a little excited to be honest. It's being overwhelmed by hurt at the moment, but as I hurt less, more hope and excitement comes thru.
Do I want to be with a woman who lies and cheats? Hell no. If anything, I stood too long in the face of her blatant disrespect for our M. I allowed her to manipulate me, to frustrate me, to hurt me. No more.
I'm no longer standing for my M....I'm standing for me.
Awesome!!!!! Don't back down, fight for your rights in a loving way. Use your energy as a shield not a sword, because chopping people down is not in our job title.
I'm no longer standing for my M....I'm standing for me.
I disagree....
I think you are
absolutely standing for the Marriage...
It's just the version of what YOU need in a marriage now...
It's the version of a marriage that you want in your life..
It's the version of a marriage that applies your principals and needs...
It's the version of a marriage that embraces the person that you are, and have fought HARD for...
And it's because you stood for you, that you can define all of that...
It just happens, that your current spouse is unwilling/unable to fulfill that with you now.
Doesn't mean that she may never be able to, it's just not what today looks like....
"Do I want to be with a woman who lies and cheats? Hell no. If anything, I stood too long in the face of her blatant disrespect for our M. I allowed her to manipulate me, to frustrate me, to hurt me. No more.
I'm no longer standing for my M....I'm standing for me."
This crystalizes my sentiments to a tee BD. how close we are. The last couple of days I have been diligently trying to secure a new home. I bought a house today....for me and my kids. I feel more liberated. It took a long time, and I am still wounded but I know who I am again. She is a lost soul.
Go get 'em big guy. You are strong.
Thanks Mach. I knew you would say that, and I agree.
Floyd, congrats on the house....keep putting one foot in front of the other brother.
Kept busy this weekend....a few texts from W, but nothing regarding S18 or anything really important, so I just ignored.
Spent some time with my Dad, which was really good. Got home and worked in the yard and my sister called me. She said, "I just wanted to tell you I love you, and you are going to be ok. God has a plan."
I know I mentioned this in my bootcamp thread, but my sister and I have never really been close. Our parents' D really hurt us both badly, but in different ways. She spent much of the last 25 years under the influence of drugs/alcohol, but is recently sober and doing great. I called her last year to mend fences, and try to lift her up. And now she returns the favor. I am really blessed....and I believe her.
Wow, Breakdown. What a wonderful call from your sister!
I wish I could just let text go by the way like that when it's not something regarding our kids. Just when in I think I'm getting a handle on it I backslide.
God Bless sister's BD. They are the best.
I re-read my bootcamp thread yesterday and I will say what Mach1 has already said to me.....some things have changed dramatically....and some things are still the same.
Up til recently, I still struggled with W's relationship with OM (ok, it still bothers me, I'm just not confused on where I stand with it). I always wanted to say "we can make this work....but not with OM in it." Ultimately, I was afraid that if I gave W an ultimatum, she would leave. It was more insecurity, different than what I'm used to, but the same in a lot of ways. There was also that element of control I was trying to avoid, as it was a huge issue for us. Top that off with things seemed great, and there you go...recipe for limbo.
I see now that me not having enough self-respect to say "enough" allowed my W to cake eat. She has had the best of both worlds....loving, caring, financially responsible husband....as well as the fun, let's have a good time, OM. Who wouldn't continue down that road? I didn't make her choose, so she didn't.
I've managed to piece together most of what has happened over the last couple of years. She had PA with OM....he decided to work on his M, so magically things got better with us. But, they kept in contact, they still worked together, they still saw each other regularly. I think this regular contact was enough for my W to not want to "really try" at our M, or postpone the D. At some point, OM's W bailed and then my W started pursuing him again. All the while, she kept me in limbo...either because it was easier, or because of the house not selling, or she was simply confused. I really don't know.
When I found the pictures she'd been sending him, I was so angry and hurt. I barely talked to her, and that upset her immensely. Within just a few days, she was sleeping with OM again and telling him she loves him. I still don't get the vibe that he is sure he wants to pursue it long term, but my W sure does.
So, W will get my settlement agreement tonight or tomorrow morning and given that I had it written with what she asked me for, I fully expect her to sign. We also have interest in the house, so perhaps the stars will align and I can be out of this in the next month or two.
I'm getting better every day, but it's tough going.
You're a good man BD. We are down the same path. We have been used and abused. Lets move on as best we can. At least you have an agreement. Hope it is something you are comfortable with and equitable. Stay up pal. You will be good.
Hey BD, hope you are doing okay. Curious; does your older son mor daughter know of OM?
Hey BD, hope you are doing okay. Curious; does your older son mor daughter know of OM?
Hey Floyd....been an interesting few days, and I'm close to providing an update to my sitch. I'll probably have news by the weekend.
To answer your first question, yes, I am awesome. I feel great, am getting out, meeting new people, spending more time with friends, family and my kiddos. I feel really busy all the time.
As for your second question, I think S18 probably suspects. All the kids know OM....W has been working with him for years and we've been to their house for parties and such. S18 has worked for OM occasionally as well. I didn't tell them of the affair because I don't want them to think less of their mom. While I am huge on honesty, this is a case where I think less is better.
What I have told the kids individually is that their mom and I both failed each other at different points in the marriage. It's not the fault of one of us, we both share in the blame.
So, W will get my settlement agreement tonight or tomorrow morning and given that I had it written with what she asked me for, I fully expect her to sign. We also have interest in the house, so perhaps the stars will align and I can be out of this in the next month or two.
We had hammered out most of the details of the D, with only a few items remaining and a week ago, I was ready to sign the papers. I was basically LRT, happy all the time, going out, doing things I wanted to try, meeting new people.
Last Sunday, someone had posted about the blog, "Marry, Divorce, Reconcile" and as I read thru some of the articles, a couple of them really touched me. I thought, I'd really like to share this with W. I had mixed feelings about sending it, but eventually wrote her some things I was thinking (related to her lack of forgiveness and self-worth) and sent her an email with the links.
At the end of the email I basically asked her if she was absolutely sure D is what she wants. I fully expected her to say "I'm sure." Imagine my surprise Monday morning when she said "No, I do not want a D."
We've talked quite a few times this week, most of them productive, even when emotions ran high. There's a lot of issues to work thru, and lot to discuss. We're both really scared, but I think that only makes sense.
We've agreed to sit down today and finalize some boundaries. I've pretty much given her my list already, and she seems to be ok with them. Will be some challenges related to OM, but she seems to be up for them. We've already agreed to read "After the Affair" together and use that as a discussion point.
Outside of that, I guess my mindset is go slow, have a beginners mind, and start dating my wife
Inspiring update, Breadown! Keep us posted.
Very happy to read your update Breakdown! Very happy indeed. :-) I am cheering for you and your family.
((((((((( ))))))))
Exciting news Breakdown... very happy for you!
[quote=Breakdown
At the end of the email I basically asked her if she was absolutely sure D is what she wants. I fully expected her to say "I'm sure." Imagine my surprise Monday morning when she said "No, I do not want a D."[/quote]
BD- Very glad to see that there is still hope. I am very inspired and happy for you. This shows how your hard work in yourself may lead into the M working out. I am sure the road ahead is not easy but we'll worth it.
Whoa!! I go awol for a couple of days and look what happens....
Seriously, I am happy for you
. Do you think that now will be the hardest part??
Let us know how dating goes...;)
Thanks folks. I appreciate the support, and I hope this ends up as a success story. Lots of work to be done and some of it is difficult.
Do you think that now will be the hardest part??
Yeah, I do think it's the toughest right now. There's so many difficult topics that are at their peak right now:
- trust is extremely low for both of us
- W is mourning the loss of her affair
- W still has all the pain and hurt that was keeping her from trying up until now
- I still don't think W has forgiven me for past mistakes
- W is very insecure right now
- I had started hanging out with a woman friend for GAL which my W is all over and upset about
- W is very concerned about how my family will treat her going forward
- W still thinks she loves OM (she'd say, she's not sure she doesn't)
We've talked thru boundaries and quite a bit about the affair. W seems pretty open about it and seems onboard with the boundaries. Sometimes I think she owns the affair, and sometimes I think she doesn't, so we'll see how that progresses. She seems to be doing pretty good with no contact on OM now, but when the wound isn't raw, I worry that she'll open up to it again.
My biggest concern is that we don't fully address all the issues. I don't want to just slide this under the rug and pretend everything is great. We've done that time and time again over the last 15 years. This time, I want to work on it, address the brokenness, and come out on the other side stronger and better....I'm still not sure she's ready to do the work.
Thanks folks. I appreciate the support, and I hope this ends up as a success story. Lots of work to be done and some of it is difficult.
Do you think that now will be the hardest part??
Yeah, I do think it's the toughest right now. There's so many difficult topics that are at their peak right now:
- trust is extremely low for both of us
- W is mourning the loss of her affair
- W still has all the pain and hurt that was keeping her from trying up until now
- I still don't think W has forgiven me for past mistakes
- W is very insecure right now
- I had started hanging out with a woman friend for GAL which my W is all over and upset about
- W is very concerned about how my family will treat her going forward
- W still thinks she loves OM (she'd say, she's not sure she doesn't)
We've talked thru boundaries and quite a bit about the affair. W seems pretty open about it and seems onboard with the boundaries. Sometimes I think she owns the affair, and sometimes I think she doesn't, so we'll see how that progresses. She seems to be doing pretty good with no contact on OM now, but when the wound isn't raw, I worry that she'll open up to it again.
My biggest concern is that we don't fully address all the issues. I don't want to just slide this under the rug and pretend everything is great. We've done that time and time again over the last 15 years. This time, I want to work on it, address the brokenness, and come out on the other side stronger and better....I'm still not sure she's ready to do the work.
BD, I think this is a great "step" in the right direction. You seem to have a good grasp on what where you are at.
My 2 cents would be to keep your perspective, keep from diving in and stay on the edge of the pool, tip your toes in little by little and by no means take off your DB life preserver!
What a great turn for you two. What a great opportunity. What great challenges lay ahead. You can do this!!!
See...I told you running could be fun
I'm excited for you guys. I think taking it slow is important and even more important is having clear boundaries set up. They just can't come across as controlling, have to be more about protecting yourselves
Great news, BD.
Now is always the hardest part.
^^ It is
My fear would be the same, the non addressing of issues. Certainly isn't easy to drag stuff out into the daylight (to paraphrase U2), but then if we don't, we always end up tripping on it somewhere down the line.
See...I told you running could be fun
LOL...yeah, you have to check out hashing. Some running/hiking with a bit of a puzzle and beer...awesome.
I'm excited for you guys. I think taking it slow is important and even more important is having clear boundaries set up. They just can't come across as controlling, have to be more about protecting yourselves
I agree on the boundaries. We discussed again tonight, and how it relates to control. She wants to manage OM the way she wants, without my input...so we'll work thru that.
She did talk some more about the PA tonight, and while I feel like she opened up, she also ended with "I don't want to rehash this every night." She's ashamed and doesn't want to relive it over and over...understandable. I told her, it hurts me too, so I just want my questions answered and to move past it....but we need to build some trust here.
I also specifically addressed not repeating the past, as in, not addressing the issues. She agreed. She also told me she felt pressure to "get in or get out" and I told her, "take all the time you need....I won't go back to limbo, but I do want you to make the right decision for you. It can't be because of pressure, or guilt, or fear...it has to be what you want."
I put my wedding ring back on yesterday....at my W's request. I haven't worn it since last summer I think.
I put my wedding ring back on yesterday....at my W's request. I haven't worn it since last summer I think.
The "Pawn Shop" still had it ????
: )
Awesome news Breakdown, congrats!! Good luck and take it slooooow
Great news!
Awesome news Breakdown, congrats!! Good luck and take it slooooow
^Agreed. It is so easy to fall into the trap and get over zealous or hopeful. Thats usually when life drops the hammer on you...if for no other reason than to watch you squirm.
Not saying dont be happy...just careful
Best of continued luck
Good for you Breakdown, you have several similarities to where I was in the fall of 2011. I have read "After the Affair" and can't recommend it for where you are, have you read it yourself first? I would go with the 5LL's and "His Needs, Her Needs" then "Passionate Marriage" instead. After the Affair spends a lot of time creating frameworks to help each person decide whether or not they should stay together or not which feels like return to limbo for a stander.
In my sitch, OM also called things off to work on his marriage and went no contact with W and to his credit he has stayed with it. That's good and bad because it leaves the relationship unresolved for your W and she will continue to miss that affair excitement.
The biggest mistake I made was not being firm and demanding enough with my boundaries. She did not own her affair, she justified it. For a brief honeymoon period she worked on piecing with me but then went back to "you must accept me as I am and to ask anything different is a failure on your part to love me unconditionally and indicates that we are just incompatible."
If there's one bit of advice I would give at this tender stage, It would be to hold onto your boundaries at all costs even if it seems to represent a step back in reconciling. It gets harder later to dig in hard when the kids believe you are back together and everything is good from an outsiders perspective. It will then be you that is creating turmoil and threatening the peace versus your W, and that's a more difficult position to be in believe it or not.
I would fight the fight on your boundaries now while things are still marginally broken and not compromise anything that you know is very important to you. Seize the initiative!
Accuray
Thanks Acc. That's good advice. Perhaps we won't read the whole After the Affair, but rather, focus on the chapters of rebuilding the trust and the relationship. She's not a big reader anyway so she'll be thrilled to cut it down to the stuff that applies. I'll skim it first to see if that makes sense....I also have the others, so I'll check those out too.
We did agree to get together again Saturday morning to discuss boundaries. She already knows where I stand, but she wants to make sure it's the same on both sides. I have reiterated again and again that no contact is mandatory as is transparency and truthfulness....anything less and I'm out, and I mean that. OM is pressing her hard and trying to manipulate her (i.e. "I'm on the way to the hospital"), but so far she seems to have remained strong.
She did not own her affair, she justified it. For a brief honeymoon period she worked on piecing with me but then went back to "you must accept me as I am and to ask anything different is a failure on your part to love me unconditionally and indicates that we are just incompatible."
My W mostly justified as well, at least up until recently. She opened up a few days ago and told me how ashamed she was, but I still don't feel like she's been very apologetic. It's not like she's saying "please give me a chance"...it's more like she knows I want to work on it and is saying, "ok." That bothers me a bit.
The "Pawn Shop" still had it ????
Yeah, got quite the deal too :p
The biggest mistake I made was not being firm and demanding enough with my boundaries. She did not own her affair, she justified it. For a brief honeymoon period she worked on piecing with me but then went back to "you must accept me as I am and to ask anything different is a failure on your part to love me unconditionally and indicates that we are just incompatible."
Accuray
Wow Acc...you married to my W too?
Its amazing the similarities I find here.
We did agree to get together again Saturday morning to discuss boundaries. She already knows where I stand, but she wants to make sure it's the same on both sides. I have reiterated again and again that no contact is mandatory as is transparency and truthfulness....anything less and I'm out, and I mean that. OM is pressing her hard and trying to manipulate her (i.e. "I'm on the way to the hospital"), but so far she seems to have remained strong.
Like I told you the other night.
Make it PERFECTLY CLEAR, that your boundaries are for yourself, and for the marriage. They are in no way, to punish her for anything....
And that is the line that you risk crossing, between a boundary and being controlling. And it is damned easy to cross that line.
I also think that you need to define the contact a little more.
Contact IS going to happen, although it should only be that he is contacting her. The boundary should be something like...
There will be no contact initiated by her, and everything she receives, she will tell you about.
Break and Acc,
Just a quick question. When your W's failed to "own" their A's, what excuses did you get? Mine simply told me she wasnt in love with me, thought it was over, and "moved on". We "reconciled" but it was completely on her terms...and it left me conflicted for years. I am not even allowed to bring it up.
Now in my sitch, I was on the other side of the globe in Iraq in '03 for the first PA, but after this last BD in May 2013... I am hearing many of the same things about our R from her and the reason she is done. She claims there is no OM...denies it. But she denied the last one in 2003 also until I caught her red handed with key logger software.
Make it PERFECTLY CLEAR, that your boundaries are for yourself, and for the marriage. They are in no way, to punish her for anything....
And that is the line that you risk crossing, between a boundary and being controlling. And it is damned easy to cross that line.
Agreed....and we have discussed that blur between boundary and control.
There will be no contact initiated by her, and everything she receives, she will tell you about.
I like that. I told her the second part the other day, but even so, I'm still having to ask at this point. It's frustrating. I think she's answering me honestly, but I hate that I have to ask. I think part of it is that she thinks it's going to turn into a fight, so she'd rather just avoid it....guess we need to discuss that too.
I like that. I told her the second part the other day, but even so, I'm still having to ask at this point. It's frustrating. I think she's answering me honestly, but I hate that I have to ask. I think part of it is that she thinks it's going to turn into a fight, so she'd rather just avoid it....guess we need to discuss that too.
Maybe explain it to her.
That by having to ask her, it keeps the focus on the affair. And it keeps it in the forefront of BOTH of your thoughts. And that you feel, that if she could just let you know, without having to ask, will allow each of you, to start moving forward toward the future, instead of being stuck in the past.
???
Are you asking for details ?
Or just that contact was made ???
Trust can be built with just letting you know that there was contact. You can trust, yet verify...
The details might be what is keeping things stuck. And that doesn't mean that you don't get them. It means that those convos happen when emotions are a little less high ??
Where is your line drawn ????
Having to ask, for me, is a non-starter. Who can live with that kind of anxiety. Having her offer the information to you relieves you of having to wonder, and that's what provides comfort and the ability to work on trust.
I would play hardball with your boundaries Breakdown, stake out your territory and show her you mean it. To Mach1's point you're not trying to control her, you're saying that to be in a relationship with you, this is what you need to have and how you need to be treated.
If she thinks that's unreasonable or not doable, she doesn't have to be in a relationship with you and you can put the divorce back on the table. I think she'll be more willing to negotiate than you might expect given where she is, but once she's back in the fold it gets more difficult, so now is the time to figure out what is non-negotiable and stick with it like your life depends on it! (And of course it has to be bi-lateral).
There is good information on Pat Love's web site for where you are. Go to the "Downloads" section and start with the Office Spouse survey -- that gives you a template for being very specific about what is okay with you and not okay with you in terms of friends of the opposite sex. You should both agree on it and mutually agree to disclose if and when either of you are tempted.
Accuray
Thanks guys....very good points, and I need them. I spent so much time getting to this point, now that I'm there, I'm like "oh $hit!"
Having to ask, for me, is a non-starter. Who can live with that kind of anxiety. Having her offer the information to you relieves you of having to wonder, and that's what provides comfort and the ability to work on trust.
Totally agree....will definitely make this point. To Mach1's point, yes, we've been talking details....maybe I need to let that go a bit so she doesn't feel so defensive.
I would play hardball with your boundaries Breakdown, stake out your territory and show her you mean it.
If she thinks that's unreasonable or not doable, she doesn't have to be in a relationship with you and you can put the divorce back on the table. I think she'll be more willing to negotiate than you might expect given where she is, but once she's back in the fold it gets more difficult, so now is the time to figure out what is non-negotiable and stick with it like your life depends on it! (And of course it has to be bi-lateral).
Totally agree. I think I've done pretty good so far. I have reiterated a number of times that "any" crossing of my boundaries and I'm out. At this point, I still feel comfortable moving forward with or without her....but after some time, I can see that becoming an issue.
There is good information on Pat Love's web site for where you are.
Awesome!! That was exactly what I was looking for...read that a while back and thought it was great, but couldn't find it. With a "boundaries" discussion on Sat, a couple of those are perfect!
Just a quick update....emotions have been extremely high which has led to extreme ups and extreme downs. Based on advice from Acc and Mach1, I have asked W to:
- discuss boundaries tomorrow over breakfast
- take following 3 weeks off all R work and "just be"
- after 3 weeks, we each select a relationship book to read and discuss with each other
- reassess after that time whether we need another break
W was absolutely thrilled with this suggestion as she has felt rushed and out of control. We both feel like some down time will help us cool down and settle in for the work that's coming. After discussing, we both immediately felt better....the pressure valve has been released.
^^ sounds like a plan, for sure...sorry for new confusing moniker, but still IO aka Ruby.
I know I would feel a little panicky in your situation or your W's. More the "what if I make a wrong move " in your shoes and "Am I doing the right thing" in W's
I will remember these if I ever reach this place
Sigh....well, we ain't out of the woods yet. While W agreed to all the boundaries Sat, she's really not been telling me about the contact unless I ask. I do need to give her a little more time to see how she does, but so far, it's a struggle.
This morning I was grabbing the ipad and her phone buzzed...I looked at it and OM had texted her. I went ahead and took a look...she walked in and I said, "hey, I'm looking at your phone." She was irritated because I had agreed to ask her first, but she didn't throw a fit.
Lots of chase from OM...ILU, thinking of you, etc etc. Pretty much everything I'm sure he could think of to open the window back up. For the most part, she has ignored, but over the last few days, she's started to respond to some things...innocently at this point, but to me, it's cracking the window open.
After discussing for a few minutes (she had an explanation for everything...but she always has), I told her to either write him a letter indicating no contact outside of business and that can be done via email...no more text, no more calls, or to hash out the rest of the D because I won't go back to that type of relationship. She's stomping around now mad, so we'll see what happens.
BD, did you let your W know about a boundary of yours regarding OM, or did you give her a condition regarding OM? If a condition, then what are the consequences you stated and how are you planning to uphold them?
If a boundary, then what are doing snooping? Because boundaries are about YOU, not about her.
- take following 3 weeks off all R work and "just be"
How's this ^^^^^ working for you, so far?
Lots of chase from OM...ILU, thinking of you, etc etc. Pretty much everything I'm sure he could think of to open the window back up. For the most part, she has ignored, but over the last few days, she's started to respond to some things...innocently at this point, but to me, it's cracking the window open.
Maybe you should text him back....
Thinking of you too, actually thinking of sticking my boot up your ass..
Love, Breakdown...Just kidding there : )
I think you need to stand hard in this.
Yes, she will buck back a little
Reiterate your stance to her again, and that this is not healthy for the Marriage.
Talk through it, and listen to her reasons too.
Communication is the key now.....
- take following 3 weeks off all R work and "just be"
How's this ^^^^^ working for you, so far?
It's about how I expected honestly. We're not actively discussing our relationship right now, but I am holding my ground not being a part of this if OM is still in the picture.
And yeah, I snooped, but we already agreed to transparency so I don't think it's out of bounds. There's a little check and balance at this point as we both rebuild trust.
I think you need to stand hard in this.
Yes, she will buck back a little
Reiterate your stance to her again, and that this is not healthy for the Marriage.
Talk through it, and listen to her reasons too.
Communication is the key now.....
Thanks Mach1....I think that's pretty much what I did. I told her it wasn't a fight, but a serious issue in our M we needed to work thru and I was willing to do that calmly and lovingly.
She didn't respond, but within an hour, she sent OM an email, copying me, saying "do not try to contact me via text or calls. All contact should be via email and only pertaining to deals we're currently in together. After those deals conclude, there will be no further contact whatsoever."
She then sent me a text saying "I did what I had to do to keep you." She apologized saying she is trying to change some things and they are going to take a lot of time, and thanked me for understanding her. I thanked her for respecting me and our marriage.
So all in all, goodness....we just have to stay the path and follow thru.
Last couple of weeks have been great, but also tough. There's been some hard discussions, a lot of hurt, and serious trust issues, but overall, I felt like the discussions were positive. We were spending a lot more time together outside of the immediate family, and that felt good.
Unfortunately, after a weird incident over last weekend, I felt like she was not being completely truthful. It only took a few days to find that she was still talking to OM every day and seeing him when she could.
I confronted her last night and gave her an opportunity to come clean. She had a very difficult time being honest, and after a few questions, I ended up ending the discussion because of continued lies. I gave her our last divorce papers, asked her to make whatever edits she needed to, and get them back to me today so that we can submit.
It's been a long long road, and while I still am holding out hope that reconciliation may happen one day, I can no longer stay in a relationship with a third person involved.
There is really no better way to describe an EA/PA than addiction. I could see the pain in my W's eyes, I could see that she really wanted to let OM go, she just hasn't found the strength to do so yet. So until then, I'll refocus on me and my kiddos, and keep moving forward.
Even though I completely agree with your decision I can only imagine how much courage it takes.
It is awesome to see you have the self respect for yourself and the strength to not compromise who you are.
Best Luck BD!